sk-lore

[rough ingot]

If she is the mother of silk, then all silk is somehow all connected to her

through evolution or lineage to such

cuz we know most of the silk branches and silk spools in silksong are weaver leftovers

[lilac hedge]

Do we have an answer then

[vestal swan]

Basically both

[rough ingot]

grand mother silk = mother silk = literally just silk

[lone folio]

Ok but like if fayforn can just end a normal everyday Weavers life because it feels like it then clearly fayforn is a very powerful bug. First sinner seems to be a challange to Hornet and first sinner is the closest we will get to meeting a normal common Weaver. I feel like fayforn would actually defeat Hornet in battle.

[lone folio]

And silk is just soul

[vestal swan]

It's not just soul

Silk is a product

[rough ingot]

silk and soul are 2 diff things

knight cannot use silk, but soul, and hornet cannot use soul, but silk

[lone folio]

Mostly soul

[rough ingot]

Silk is gms’s hair basically, and soul is part of bugs

[lone folio]

The hell is it made of then??

[wise sand]

silk is made of soul

its basically strings of soild soul

[rough ingot]

it is used for spells

[vestal swan]

That's like saying dream shield is made of essence, it's a physical object now

[lone folio]

My grandma's health insurance? Titanium?? Bugs???

[rough ingot]

If only the knight could strike solid silk so we can find out…

not just hornet’s shell

[lone folio]

It's like cheese then? Cheese is a product of milk but they aren't the same thing?

[rough ingot]

yea i guess so

like the shades are made of void but kinda different… theyre more solid than the liquid we know as the sea

[vestal swan]

I guess

That's a whole different can of worms

[rough ingot]

or wyrm, as in the blackwyrm

[unique canopy]

GMS creates string cheese, thanks for that mental image

[rough ingot]

my friend already had an argument with me “is the shade lord more solid or liquid”

[vestal swan]

That makes phantom blue cheese

Old and moldy

[rough ingot]

Or mouldy cheese, her form is rotten silk

[lone folio]

Guys this cheese analogy is getting us somewhere

[rough ingot]

dont diss blue cheese i like it 🙁

[rough ingot]

mark your calenders

we accomplished something that didnt end up in ambiguity

[lone folio]

We might figure out how pale beings are born and whatever the fuck mask maker 1 talks about

[rough ingot]

or mr mushroom

[lone folio]

Cheese is the answer

[lone folio]

Mr mushroom talks straight facts I don't know what to tell you

[rough ingot]

If cheese is soul than is void cheese grater since void eats soul?

[stray fog]

I am void

I like eating cheese

[rough ingot]

haha

your profile pic lol

[lone folio]

So the void is made of stainless steel?

Ohh that's how it's related to the steel people

[rough ingot]

Well, ask the city of steel

[lone folio]

It's all coming together now

[rough ingot]

we the fandom have our headcanon

and thats why pale king’s buzzsaws hurt so much

my original headcanon was they were made out of pale ore

[vestal swan]

Okay you have officially lost the sauce, cheese was a bad comparison

I feel like pale ore is too precious of a resource to be used on random buzzsaws

[rough ingot]

one comparison doesnt explain everything

[rough ingot]

no cost to great…

[stray fog]

We know more about this world's metallurgy than we do about whatever the fuck mr mushroom was saying

[vestal swan]

Not really, the hive pulled steel out of nowhere in the red memory, the rest of hollownest has metal all over the place with no known metalworking factory, we know the people in the forge are endlessly making stuff in pharloom but nothing about where the weapons come from

[rough ingot]

and the nailsmith’s supplier?

[unique canopy]

Maybe it's a precious resource because he used it on random buzzsaws

[stray fog]

I was talking about the different metals and alloys (magnetite, pale ore, hive steel, normal steel)

[vestal swan]

Also the confusing land of steel where there is metal people and metal that grows

[rough ingot]

And craftmetal

[stray fog]

I always found the entire journal entry for magnetite weird

That was so random

[rough ingot]

we just need to wait for dlc now

[lilac hedge]

Wait is magnetite also in those platform thingies that break when you step in

[rough ingot]

and the godseeker’s metal stuff

godhome looks really metal to me tbh

[stray fog]

It looks like either craft metal or magnetite

[rough ingot]

its blue so magnetite

[lilac hedge]

But like craft metal doesnt pull themselves togheter tho

[stray fog]

Yeah

[rough ingot]

what analogy is magnetite?

[lilac hedge]

Wdym by analogy am i slow

[rough ingot]

silk is cheese

also bye chat 🙁

[stray fog]

Bye

[frigid belfry]

is it just me or does a fully upgraded hunter cres5 look like a wyrm+weaver fusion

it has pk’s crown and 6 eyes

[visual glacier]

It’s not just you

[rough ingot]

also fury of the fallen area

mentioned on reddit, the most cough trustworthy source

it hornet’s own crest, also somewhat reminds me of the hunter in greenpath

[ember river]

Hornet is stronger than the average weaver, and I'd reckon she's stronger than most weavers

[rough ingot]

well, you do make a point, she is half wyrm

[lone folio]

yes but if the bird can just kill weavers when it feels like it and those weavers dont survive then im not sure what the chances of hornet surviving angry bird are

[ember river]

It's not a bird

[lone folio]

its bird like okay?

[rough ingot]

its a fayforn yess

is the fayforn a confirmed higher being or?

[ember river]

It's still a mortal bug, Hornet has gone up against a higher being and come out on top

[ember river]

It's most definetely not

[lone folio]

not confirmed nor likely

theres a slight chance but we have no great evidence for it

[rough ingot]

Some ppl tried to make an argument

[foggy fractal]

not confirmed

[rough ingot]

i mean, it has a lot of prescence on mt fay

[ember river]

In fact there's more evidence to suggest it's just a grown up form of the mt fay platform bugs

[rough ingot]

also i dont think mt fay actually is covered in snow

[lone folio]

i have tried though after discussion it doesnt seem likely

[ember river]

Some of the bugs in Pharloom can live for a very, very long time and get stronger as time passes

[rough ingot]

the “snow” behaves very strange

[ember river]

They are also found in that general area

[rough ingot]

okay!

[ember river]

The snow does seem a bit weird

[rough ingot]

cuz higher beings are kinda hard to kill, i mean, radince needed to be dragged into the knight’s basement. GMs had to. Be voided or bound by her own “descendant”

[ember river]

In any case, Fayforn seems much more like a Bardoon-type creature than an actual higher being

[ember river]

Higher beings seem to be outright impossible to kill by conventional means

[rough ingot]

it can be an illusion similar to the ash in kingdom’s edge

[rough ingot]

thats why soul snare was a “good idea”

[ember river]

The void snare was the only way the shamans knew to defeat a higher being

And to be fair we don't know any other way either

[rough ingot]

yea

void just seems to be the only way, and plus GMS doesnt die when bound

[ember river]

Binding =/= Killing

[rough ingot]

void or a stronger higher being i suppose

[ember river]

I'm unsure even about fights between HBs resulting in deaths

[rough ingot]

well, PK and radiance never fought directly

[ember river]

But although they can be defeated, true death is exceedingly rare

[rough ingot]

and all we have is SL mauling radiance

[lone folio]

well okay hornet has fought a higher being or two but like grandmother silk seems to be very physically frail and hornet says that most higher beings fail to match their title and gms seems to fit that description

[ember river]

Radiance is a bit of a special case, but even then the only other mention of her dying we get is the Seer talking about "the only death that matters" referring to her being forgotten

[rough ingot]

its her influence dying out but she still lives

[craggy smelt]

you can kill a pale being if you also make them, like, really depressed

[ember river]

Yeah, she isn't strong, but if actually killing her was just as easy as stabbing her repeatedly while she's knocked down then the void snare would have been a terrible ideaa

[ember river]

We still don't know what killed the PK

[rough ingot]

there’s void particles in the throne room fyi

[ember river]

A running theory is that it was void due to all the void particles in the throne room

[rough ingot]

anf the void tendrils attached to the kingsmould

the one that lets u in

And the fact the lighthouse was turned off, and the castle was directly above the void sea

[craggy smelt]

i think he got really sad
maybe he used the Void to punch his own ticket, dimming his own light to allow it to get to him

[lone folio]

the reason the void snare even happens is because she doesnt want to become the queen of weavers. using the void snare was clearly the snail shamans idea and hornet just got lied too

[ember river]

As for the Radiance being forgotten, I'd assume that'd leave her unable to interact with the physical world in any grand manner, and eventually truly killing her (kinda like Unn's power is waning)

[ember river]

That sounds unlike him

[rough ingot]

unn is beyond the godseekers saving

[ember river]

Again, she wouldn't have sought someone with an idea on how to kill GMS if killing GMS was as easy as just keep stabbing her while she's down

The void snare was the only plausible solution

[craggy smelt]

his last thoughts were of the sacrifices he'd made (and forced others to make) that were all for naught and his kingdom fell into ruin
I think that would bum anyone out

[ember river]

She, also, wasn't really lied to, they promised to remove her from Pharloom and so they did

[edgy nebula]

wasnt hornet's fault either

[lone folio]

by using void which she didnt know about and would of defently rejected the idea of

[ember river]

His last thoughts were the mantra he endlessly repeated, could be shame of his actions or could be stubbornness and trying to design a new plan even when everything was lost

[ember river]

She was (and most likely still is) scared shitless of the idea of using the void at all, but then again we have no other ideas on how to kill a higher being for good

If literally anything worked that would have been a massive waste of time

[edgy nebula]

very likely shame

[craggy smelt]

I do wonder
his actual very last thoughts when you grab the Kingsoul fragment are 'Soul of Wyrm, Soul of Root, Heart of Void'
which could be an allusion to the vessels, but might also be an allusion to the Voidheart.
maybe he'd figured out that uniting the Void was the actual key - Hornet seemed to be thinking along the same lines at one point

[ember river]

We only get one sentence, we can't extrapolate what he felt or why he died from that

[edgy nebula]

the vessels were called the wyrm's great shame, im pretty sure he was feeling shameful

[ember river]

For all we know he could have foreseen the Knight would eventually return and free Hallownest and so he concentrated his remaining power into the kingsoul half

Since, you know, he was a god-king who could see the future

[twin dragon]

Pinstress is a higher being

[ember river]

It's kinda hard to analyze such a mind

[craggy smelt]

WL admits to shame for her part, so the pale beings aren't beyond it certainly

[twin dragon]

Ima leave it at that

[ember river]

Was that revealed to you by the Herald?

[twin dragon]

No, else i would be dead

by now

[ember river]

Ah, I see

[twin dragon]

Anyways we need a sk lore bingo

and add the "hk discussion in sk lore"

[ember river]

To be fair, a bunch of stuff can be retroactively discussed based on new silksong lore

[twin dragon]

Aka retcons by people that like that word too much

[lone folio]

also if its not that easy to defeat gms and the only way she can is too bind her then she doesnt really win does she? clearly its not a great outcome so she never actually comes out on top. her binding gms doesnt give her a big enough feat to be used for comparing her to fayforn who just kills weavers when she feels like it which is no easy feat

[ember river]

I was thinking more about all the higher being lore we get

[twin dragon]

fayforn kills weavers..?

what

who told you that

fayforn is a random ass animal

And the runes in mt fay are referring to the climb

to reach fayforn

[lone folio]

mount fay lore tablet: ''blah blah blah you get upp there and either you learn something or you get killed by a bird'' (thats basically how it goes)

[ember river]

No, defeating GMS isn't that easy, but that wasn't even my point. I said you can't kill a HB for good just by poking at it with a metal bit until it expires. It simply wouldn't work.
There are various other ways to get rid of a higher being, even if some don't kill it for good

[foggy fractal]

Sister, spider, if seeking commune with the creature atop this mount, take the climb above as test, a challenge beyond even our setting. Upon that summit gained, and creature hailed, know it shall choose what gift to grant, with death as likely as insight.
– Scroll left by the Weavers

[twin dragon]

no mentions of fayforn killing you

[ember river]

The Vessel project was an example of one such attempt (which failed until it didn't)

[twin dragon]

Ah wtv im sleepy

leave me alone

[lone folio]

yeah this

[twin dragon]

Yeah well?

[ember river]

So yeah fayforn can kill weavers, Hornet also kills two

[twin dragon]

shit a creature can kill things

[ember river]

Deepnest is also full of weaver corpses

[twin dragon]

so it = hb

[ember river]

It's as if a weaver is completely mortal?

[twin dragon]

Moss mother is a higher being because she can kill hornet

[ember river]

Savage Beastfly must be the true god of gods then

[twin dragon]

the cogs in cogwork core are higher beings

[lone folio]

"sister spider" refers to fellow weavers and then "death as likely as insight". clearly this is reffering to fayforn absolutely oblitirating a weaver because shes bored or something

[twin dragon]

no, what

ok, and?

it can be a strong creature

but it has no feats

[ember river]

Killing a weaver is still not that big of an accomplishment

[twin dragon]

Aside from that we dont know jack

[ember river]

Also this

[twin dragon]

Ok, how about this

[ember river]

We don't know what the fight would have been

[twin dragon]

mossgrub thingy is a higher being

and stronger than gms

because it can kill a wyrm-weaver hybrid

[lone folio]

except for killing weavers. first sinner is as close as we get to seeing a weaver in combat and they seem pretty talented

[ember river]

Widow

Also FS is talented even amongst weavers

[lone folio]

widow is fucking disabled though

[twin dragon]

It doesnt directly state that it killed weavers

Basically saying "shit might jump you or help you"

[lilac hedge]

The only weaver we fight are either exceptions or just disabked its so goddamn annoying

[twin dragon]

why is this a DISCUSSION

WHY

WHY

WHY

[unique tangle]

people love powerscaling

[twin dragon]

MOVE

CHANGE

[lilac hedge]

Atp ill just fight pharlids and get a small taste

[unique tangle]

1000th powerscaling discussion in the lore channel this week

[twin dragon]

first sinner is technically how she was in her prime

seemingly

[ember river]

God damn it

[twin dragon]

ITS A LORE CHANNEL NOT A DUMBFUCK TAVERN!

stop it

[lone folio]

it can kill weavers and how would they just know that. "yo atla i bet that bird like eats people or some shit, like i dont know about you but that overgrown thing seems really good at killing things"

[twin dragon]

Did you know

not everything needs to be taken literally

oh so gms wants hornet to rip the silk out of her body and slurp it like a speghetti

[ember river]

As a rule of thumb the more verbose a sentence is the least literally it is to be taken

[ember river]

GMS is papyrus

Sans is the Hollow Knight

[twin dragon]

this is also part of the lore

that people seemingly forgot

https://tenor.com/view/ss-sk-skong-silk-song-gif-6069929492524291916

[lone folio]

GASATTACK STARTED THIS AGAIN. THAT WAS JUST A THOUGHT I HAD AN SAID IT HERE AND NOW IM FORCED TO DISCUSS IF A BIRD CAN TAKE DOWN A HALF SPIDER HALF WORM THING 😭

[twin dragon]

weavers are pharlids

[ember river]

How exactly did I start it

[lone folio]

okay forced is a pretty big word since i can just turn off discord but whatever

[twin dragon]

with messed up genetics and soul overdose

[ember river]

I think he means Hornet

[lone folio]

you responded to my message that i sent like 4 hours ago

[twin dragon]

Yeah

hornet would prob beat fayforn

and it would be an easy boss

[ember river]

Oh it was 4h ago? I just saw it and replied

[twin dragon]

Ok so both hk games have:
Tarnus, master of blades, deals 1 damage and ruled a kingdom that fought back against X god

[ember river]

I still don't get people wanting fayforn to be a god when it can be considered analogous to a dragon

And it's MUCH COOLER

[twin dragon]

And colossal big clam: 2 masks of damage and summons 30 regular clams that stun you for 4 masks of damage

[ember river]

Wizard spiders fighting the dragon moth

[twin dragon]

it didn't happen btw gasattack

[rough ingot]

we need a powerscaling channel

[ember river]

I know, but it's pretty cool to think of it

[twin dragon]

"Gms is a weak god because she doesn't have a bullshit unexplained power that can turn anyone into orange goo if they even slightly like her"

[lone folio]

i dont either. thats why i havent ever said anything about it being a higher being im just saying it seems like a very skilled creature

[rough ingot]

haha

[lone folio]

no

god everything but that

[rough ingot]

Well

[ember river]

They should actually add it so it's a quarantine

[twin dragon]

act 3 is TOO SHORT!!!

[ember river]

You point them towards it

And you mute that channel and hide it

[lone folio]

i will let a shipping channel slide but that thing will absolutely explode in 4 seconds

[rough ingot]

im literally new

[lone folio]

hmmmmm

you may have a point

[rough ingot]

Ask someone ranked lol

im literally labelled a newbie on the server

[twin dragon]

act 3 discussion time

lets see if starpengu joins in

lowk the summon

[rough ingot]

act 3 is too short, and knight is too uninvolved

[ember river]

The summon for starpengu is talking about the slab

[twin dragon]

to say how act 3 bad because it doesnt fit the themes and actually develops 2 of the core characters in the game

[sinful nimbus]

Hi guys

[rough ingot]

and everyone complains about VGF not being a boss

[twin dragon]

Hey

[ember river]

KNEW IT

[twin dragon]

i was expecting you

now let's discuss uh

coral gorge

[rough ingot]

my evidence

[twin dragon]

Yeah i was there i saw it

it happened

[lone folio]

starpengu will show upp and tell us that hornet should of never had a needle. it will be so peak

[twin dragon]

and then it infected and exploded

and everyone clapped

or some shit

[lone folio]

wow

[twin dragon]

fuck i know i die

[lilac hedge]

Crest goes hard

[lone folio]

this evidence is crazy good

[ember river]

I was there, I was the second left eye starting from the top

[lone folio]

i will trust this eternally

[sinful nimbus]

Seamstress pilled

[rough ingot]

the bg is actually a modded HK boss “Lord of Shades”

[lone folio]

OH MY GOD

[twin dragon]

Seamstress is a higher being

[lone folio]

STARPENGY IS REAL

[twin dragon]

the higher being of good quality parachutes

[lone folio]

OH MY GOD

[twin dragon]

PHARLOOM BAY WAS NEVER REAL

IT WILL NEVER

BE REAL

[rough ingot]

me and my friend had an argument on who wins

[twin dragon]

shade lord

[lone folio]

see its real but its behind a breakable wall

[rough ingot]

and the steel city?/ fate

[twin dragon]

its not even fucking close

[rough ingot]

they said “but everbloom”

[twin dragon]

it MIGHT be real i was there

[twin dragon]

Shit collapsed

from slight touches from the usual void tendrils

[sinful nimbus]

Barnacle Bay...

[rough ingot]

they said it was badly damaged fron LL fight

[twin dragon]

BARNACLE BAY IS STEEL CITY

[lone folio]

thats where the lore tablet that confirms fayforn being a higher being is confirmed and steel assasin sharpe shows upp and starts speaking french or something

[sinful nimbus]

Since it was going to be next to craw lake I think it would've filled the same niche Pilgrim's Rest does now

[twin dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/ss-sk-skong-silk-song-gif-6069929492524291916

[ember river]

You can do it hitless and it still breaks

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not sure why they chose Mort instead of my goat lomm 😔

[twin dragon]

Pilgrim's rest
-No pilgrims inside

Makes sense since EVERYONES FUCKING DEAD

[rough ingot]

Ik right?

[twin dragon]

except they aren't and im forced to save them

instead of murdering

[lilac hedge]

Rhinoguard did a good job

[sinful nimbus]

Mort Sherma Pilby and the one dude who gets haunted are all pilgrims

[twin dragon]

Thats it

[ember river]

Imagine if Hornet instead of fixing Pharloom after the void snare realized she fucked up and went "no witnesses"

[rough ingot]

if hornet got dragged in and not lace, Knight zooms there and saves hornet

also i believe it was the shade lord that cut the tendrils, and shifted back to the knight, since hornet is way more likely to recognize void given form and not the void given focus

i do have evidence for this theory

[lone folio]

oh no not ending discussion

quick change the subject!

[rough ingot]

also act 3 spoilers obv

dude i literally have the solution to everything

its both ETV and DNM

[ember river]

We should do unofficial lore channel rules

[ember river]

Oh this one's interesting

[rough ingot]

why the slab bro

[lone folio]

WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING THIS IT WILL CONTINUE FOR ANOTHER 4 ETERNITIES

[ember river]

I forgot being sick is punishable by swallowing and forgiven after death

[rough ingot]

both the prisoners and the guards are having a life sentence

[lone folio]

so wtf is penance by swallowing??

[rough ingot]

i have a sinple solution

[craggy smelt]

the game's deepest mystery...

[ember river]

You're a Penitent, Tenth of the Fourth, guilty of the sins of ending speculation.
Penance by switching the topic
Absolution granted after death

[rough ingot]

Void given focus saves hornet, and can only truly appear when theres enough void EVIDENCE: screen floods with void in etv, and in the void sea. And can change back to the shades

[sinful nimbus]

Might be swallowed by broodmother she has to get food from somewhere

[rough ingot]

i will return

[sinful nimbus]

Alternatively they swallow like rocks or something idk

[ember river]

Oh could be

Imagine if swallowing just meant taking medicine

[craggy smelt]

gross

[rough ingot]

broodmother’s whole line got cursed

[ember river]

Yeah, but they are provided food

[rough ingot]

broodmother lore and slab lore creeps me out

[sinful nimbus]

gross? in MY weird and wonderful bug game?

[ember river]

And I'd reckon it's not precisely from the Gourmand

[rough ingot]

and the discgraxed chef?

lugoli?

[ember river]

He worked for the citadel until they found his cooking gross too many times and kicked him out

[rough ingot]

he had to get in troubke somewhere

[ember river]

Or maybe he ate other bugs

I dunno

[rough ingot]

slab works in tandem with the cidadel

[craggy smelt]

they're pickling other bugs their attic

[rough ingot]

muckmaggots

[lilac hedge]

Just culinary crimes

[sinful nimbus]

What if lugoli only ate the rich

[craggy smelt]

they did nothing wrong then

[rough ingot]

Weaver stew

[craggy smelt]

we've slain an innocent genius

[lone folio]

some kind of fucked upp robin hood

[ember river]

Ass Jim's Marxist Revolution

[rough ingot]

I wonder how silk tastes

[craggy smelt]

prepares the rich to feed to the poor

[craggy smelt]

silky

[rough ingot]

cheese… remember the discussion earlier anyone?

[ember river]

Do they use silk on dishes like some people plate steak with very thin gold leaves?

[rough ingot]

our very “cheesy” explanation for silk

[craggy smelt]

to my great regret I missed the silk cheese discussion

[rough ingot]

its alright

[ember river]

The... what?

I'm honestly afraid to ask

[lilac hedge]

You can test irl from… yk spiders

[craggy smelt]

the real reason it got everywhere, Whiteward had nothing to do with it

[rough ingot]

I wont

[rough ingot]

whiteward is usesless after all confirmed???

yes IK whiteward lore and the silkfly problem…

[ember river]

The whiteward had silk extraction machines because everyone had cramps

And the stomach cramps formed the silkflies

I solved the lore

[rough ingot]

whiteward is crappy hospital confirmed

[craggy smelt]

i do want an entire kitchen area now, greatly expanded on

[rough ingot]

well, ask some modders

[ember river]

The first DLC will be the Gourmand's dungeon

[rough ingot]

not the steel city or bilewater expansion or void expansion

[craggy smelt]

this takes priority

[lone folio]

will we see the cooking competition between ass jim and the snail shamans?

[ember river]

I also like to think the Gourmand is how a Conductor looks like, even though that's kinda disproven with Bellador's filename

[rough ingot]

i SO want a void expansion, the only arcane egg we get said “shade”, my bro thought it was the knight, i thouht it was the primordial “shade lord”

[lilac hedge]

Expansions would take much longer than 2 months tbh

[rough ingot]

silksong took 7 years

use rhe cut content 🙂

Abyss expansion from cut HK

[lone folio]

like comon the snail shamans clearly know how to make some good food like this recipe fucking rocks:
Flickering Flame
Five masks swirled soul, brought and broiled.
Four stones rage-baked, crushed powder coarse.
Three shells fresh from pilgrims fallen, to contain and age.

"flickering flame" WAIT A SECOND LOOK AT THIS

[rough ingot]

and some void to cook with

[lone folio]

TROUPE CONFIRMED

LETS GO

[rough ingot]

LETS GOOOOOOO

grimmchild is now grimm

recognize hornet’s pale shell

its NOT common its PK’s lineage

[craggy smelt]

I think it would be cool to use Elegy of the Deep to explore more of the ancient civilization
but I'm torn between wanting to learn more and wanting to preserve their mystery

[rough ingot]

Redditors expressed desire to use rhat on godseeker’s corpse

[craggy smelt]

more Abyss with more AC remnants would be great though, I want to find another of those big chozo statues

[rough ingot]

i mean, we get some lore using dreamnail

its where “lord of shades” came from

[craggy smelt]

yeah, in the first game
I want to see a new one in Silksong
(I wonder if it would have needolin dialogue, other Abyss/Void beings don't give any...)

[rough ingot]

cuz void cant think, dreamnail smites the siblings and the shade cuz fheir opposing forces

void given mind was the original dialogue of rhe shade lord statue in HoG

but its got the mind of knight so its changed to viud given focus

[craggy smelt]

or its thinking is so different that it can't be perceived

[rough ingot]

like a hive mind, but also not?

[craggy smelt]

'power without unity'

[silk dirge]

i feel like ac and steel city might be connected somehow

[craggy smelt]

a tantalizing prospect

I kinda hope not though

I like to think AC disappeared before anything else, and no one knows why, not even the steel clan

maybe they've gathered more relics though, since they've got some kind of Void interest

[rough ingot]

The masters

[twin dragon]

It can

actually think

it whispered to the lightkeeper

[craggy smelt]

it's insidious

[rough ingot]

it has desires

It wanted to reach the pale king’s light

[twin dragon]

It can express them

its sapient enough to do that

[craggy smelt]

got that hunger for Soul

[twin dragon]

It hates it

[rough ingot]

revenge for tearing up the shadelord and killing its kids wit it

[twin dragon]

It hates any light

thats just the voids nature

[rough ingot]

And the pale king wasnt even that far

[twin dragon]

destructive

unrelenting

[rough ingot]

merciless

[twin dragon]

fym tearing up

the void was always fragmented into several things

[craggy smelt]

it has
-a hunger for Soul
-an aversion to light
-an insidious mental call

[twin dragon]

the liquid, tendrils

the siblings seem to be part of it aswell

posteriorely

[craggy smelt]

there's something going on in there, it's just very different from anything else...

[twin dragon]

And its sapient enough to learn

[rough ingot]

the shade lord was rumored to exist prior to the pale king, was an ancient god of sorts i think mossbag or ccmaci mentioned

[twin dragon]

and follow a ruler

[rough ingot]

why vessels afent hollow

[twin dragon]

It couldnt

its legit the knight receiving attunement from the godseekers

And mossbag has some crackhead takes so don't trust his videos too much

[rough ingot]

but… what did the ancient civilization worship, could it be once created by the worship but then died out

[craggy smelt]

Lemm mentions that the Ancients worshipped no Lord or Power, so I don't think the 'Lord of Shades' existed in the past
but the Ancients did know about Shades, so it's possible the concept of a 'Lord of Shades' existed among them
and so the idea surfaces from the Ancient's mind when the Knight actually becomes one

[twin dragon]

The void

The void as a whole

[rough ingot]

could worship iself creat a god?

[twin dragon]

it doesnt need to be one thing

[rough ingot]

void takes imprints of the world around it

and leaves a hole in its place

[twin dragon]

The lord of shades just couldn't be

[rough ingot]

evidence being collector

[twin dragon]

as it's the siblings

[craggy smelt]

the Knight becomes the Lord of Shades when they get the Void Heart
the giant Void Given Focus form comes later, but they're still the Lord of Shades before that

[rough ingot]

what were the siblings prior

[twin dragon]

nothing

[rough ingot]

but does voidheart even make sense

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[rough ingot]

we really need to figure this iut

[twin dragon]

The ancients worshipped the void

[rough ingot]

from the kingsoul, from 2 pale gods, the power to control the void

[twin dragon]

the ancient form of it

which are those tendrils

[craggy smelt]

it's basically the Shade version of the Kingsoul - it transformed and became part of the Knight when they recognized their true nature as a Void entity

[rough ingot]

did they form the being prior, we know the shade lord has the tendrils it uses to grab the godseeker

[twin dragon]

A god's soul embraced by the void

[rough ingot]

etv

[twin dragon]

not on purpose name drop btw

[rough ingot]

imagine abyss lore before P5

[silk dirge]

i mean theres a theory that theoretically a mortal bug could ascend through enough worship

[twin dragon]

P5 didnt do jack shit

[rough ingot]

everyone: how powerful is the knight after voidheart

[twin dragon]

godseeker lore is confusing

[rough ingot]

p5 craze

[craggy smelt]

stronger than the Pale King and the Radiance

[silk dirge]

idk if its actually true tho

[frigid belfry]

Strongest hb shown

[twin dragon]

Not sure iirc but the radiance was created by worship right?

[frigid belfry]

No

[rough ingot]

knight didnt even kill radiance in dnmjust gldragged in into the coid

[twin dragon]

it sure grew by it

but idfk

i forgor

im sleepy

[rough ingot]

radiance created moths for worship or smth

[craggy smelt]

smothered her basically, the Infection still vanishes

[frigid belfry]

The radiance created the moth tribe, but she is sustained by worship, we have no idea how the radiance came to be before the moth tribe

[twin dragon]

The ancient civilization seemingly wanted the void to "cleanse" them

and they seemingly applied it to themselves

[silk dirge]

i wonder if we will ever find out where hbs come from

[rough ingot]

by a decent margin i guess? PK and wyrm race is dead. Unn is dying, gms is weakish to void, nightmare heart on par with rad. White lady?

[frigid belfry]

It’s implied the radiance dies in both endings after being dragged by void

[rough ingot]

died in the void prob

[rough ingot]

Radiance explodes in ETV

ive seen it bruh…

[craggy smelt]

Seer says that if a dream is forgotten it is 'sealed away' and this is the 'only death that matters'
it doesn't exactly suggest that Radiance would be truly destroyed from lack of worship, but possibly something like a 'fate worse than death'
though higher beings do seem to decline without the worship of bugs (Unn is in decline, Nightmare Heart needs to feed their vessel with fear essence, etc.)

[frigid belfry]

Huge margin, it defeated an amped, prime version of the radiance, commands the str8ngest substance known in the universe, and is referred to as the God of Gods

[rough ingot]

good rxplanation

[twin dragon]

hunter kinda mentions them being "fragments"

Which could further prove my point

[rough ingot]

yea… and ppl say it was “defeated” by a stupid flower, their evidence being the flower quest ending

[frigid belfry]

Essentially what im saying

[rough ingot]

shade lord tore them to shreds

[frigid belfry]

It never was, it’s heavily implied all the flower does is repel void

[rough ingot]

Didnt even need to use their basement

[frigid belfry]

Radiance still dies

[twin dragon]

People took it at face value

[rough ingot]

yea… but outrifht as opposed to needing the sea

[twin dragon]

as what happens later is ambiguous

[rough ingot]

they say Grey Mourner is the only one who stands a chance, with the endless flowers

[twin dragon]

ok thats stupid

[rough ingot]

welcome to reddit, where u can get anything stupid approved

[frigid belfry]

Everyone has kryptonite these days

[rough ingot]

Then the primal aspid glaze…

[frigid belfry]

Spit squits are worse

[rough ingot]

was b4 silksong release

[craggy smelt]

primal source of as

[rough ingot]

Even then spit squits dont get nearly as much slander as savage beastfly

[frigid belfry]

Savage beastfly is overhated

[silk dirge]

tbh the 2nd fight is the one that should get the hate

[rough ingot]

one guy even reedited the ETV cutscene with savage beastfly instead of absrad

i thibk they hate on them both

[silk dirge]

the chapel one would be fine if it didnt summon fucking vicious caranids

[twin dragon]

palestag underhated

[rough ingot]

summoner bosses suck

[silk dirge]

except crawfather

[twin dragon]

and groal

[rough ingot]

collector, ppl think bro fights with his hands, nope, throws jars

[twin dragon]

not sure if that could count as summons though

as they pop in and out

[rough ingot]

groal is overhated

[silk dirge]

im gonna try fighting groal with actual needle upgrades for my speedrun playthrough

[twin dragon]

Collector is buns

[silk dirge]

i got under 5 hours achievement yesterday

[rough ingot]

collector has 0 hand eye coordination

[silk dirge]

now i have 25 hours for 100% so im gonna cook groal somehow

[rough ingot]

somehow

[silk dirge]

i got so cooked trying to do hhg

[rough ingot]

im not even gonna try for now

[silk dirge]

i lost an hour to hhg

but i still enjoyed it

[rough ingot]

high hauls gauntlet

that sucks

wheres garmond and shakra when we need them

[silk dirge]

i got clapped by the choir

[silk dirge]

just do shakras quest shes so much better for hhg

[rough ingot]

i got straight up slaughtered

[rough ingot]

where are they both…

I told my bro do garmond’s quest he thought i meant gourmand… so i was fighhting lost garmond and hes like “who is that” and i tell him its garmond

[silk dirge]

shakra you just need to do trails end to get her help there

[rough ingot]

well, i did this:

[silk dirge]

garmond you need to somehow duel him with all the weirdass conditions that has

[silk dirge]

cogflies saved my ass in hhg

[rough ingot]

same lol

[silk dirge]

i picked up a craftmetal getting clawline this run

and i used that for cogflies

[rough ingot]

yep

they slap hard

i would go through mist for crossstitch instead of last judge, cuz crossstitch helps so much

[silk dirge]

i need a cogfly drone irl

[rough ingot]

ppl made cogfky skins

one is a flea

one is shakra

one is Yi (nine sols_

[silk dirge]

the two types of minions in silksong
-cute lovable robot fly
-living fire from a fucking horror movie area

[rough ingot]

and hk is all of the knight’s kids

knight is a single parent

[sinful nimbus]

What if wisp thicket was actually spooky

[rough ingot]

grimm troupe but rip off

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong doesn't really have spooky areas tbh only subareas

[rough ingot]

grimm actually can scare ppl

whitewatd

abyss

[sinful nimbus]

Whiteward is basically a subarea

Abyss is a glorified cutscene I don't count that

[rough ingot]

I meant not the void sea the whole abyss

f*ck gargant glooms

i kill those things witth pale nails, shaman crest, and a lot of electricity

[silk dirge]

my theory is whiteward is small bc it might be too much for some people

[rough ingot]

the silk heart from the unravelled makes u have to go there

[silk dirge]

silksong is not a horror game so to have an area like that probably could turn off some people

[rough ingot]

and grimm isnt really that terrifying

[silk dirge]

deepnest was not nearly as crazy as whiteward tbh

[rough ingot]

and Hk abyss isnt that unsettling until you realize the only way ur surviving is cuz you literally have void IN YOU

and ur walking on ur siblings corpses

and ur siblings are all shades

[sinful nimbus]

Deepnest was deliberately designed to make the player feel lost, its full of claustrophobic tunnels and you can also get temporarily trapped there by sitting on a bench

[rough ingot]

NOSK

[sinful nimbus]

Its also one of the only places where enemies can chase you

[silk dirge]

idk i just dont get the same feeling from deepnest as whiteward

[rough ingot]

ppl thought nosk was a game file bug

[silk dirge]

whiteward just makes me like shiver like crazy

[rough ingot]

whiteward felt very off, and there wasnt even any void to explain the offputness

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah once you get trapped on the bench the game decides to dial up everything with corpse creepers, nosk, and weavers appearing out of nowhere

[rough ingot]

I did sherma’s quest, i did the unravelled, and got the heck outa there

[sinful nimbus]

I think it was overall a lot more terrifying

[rough ingot]

dreamshield can detect corpse creepers

I figured that out with my friend who used the chatm

[silk dirge]

i think if we want a true 1:1 comparison deepnest's silksong equivalent is bilewater tbh

[sinful nimbus]

WW is maybe more creepy conceptually though

[rough ingot]

Dreamshield will react with corpses that look like corpses

[rough ingot]

agreed

[silk dirge]

someone made a good comparison video

[rough ingot]

cuz only the zote trial has soul sucking monsters

[sinful nimbus]

Bilewater is designed to piss you off so you come back later not scare you

[silk dirge]

https://youtu.be/ScAxpouYA_c?si=AVM4wT0bzMSY8e04

[rough ingot]

poor phantom

[sinful nimbus]

And tbh I think its fine SS doesn't have a horror area its a lot better when you don't see something and go "Oh its like x from HK"

buuuut if they were going to make one a deep lava area could be spooky

[rough ingot]

yea

[rough ingot]

abyss escape

[silk dirge]

yeah i feel like ww and wt are enough

[sinful nimbus]

Abyss Escape is hype not spooky

[rough ingot]

i hated the jumpscare of lava rising

[silk dirge]

also has anyone noticed wt uses a version of abyss music

[rough ingot]

and abyss music is the title theme of Hk but on like no speed

BlueSR’s “hollow knight’s most haunting detail” video

honestly watch it

[sinful nimbus]

This is so tuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhTpOlBbHLA

[silk dirge]

idk which one i like more dies irae in silksong or knight motif in hk

theyre both goated

[rough ingot]

the leight motif

[sinful nimbus]

I think HK has wayyyyy better musical storytelling

[rough ingot]

christopher larkin cooked more

sealed vessel ost

[sinful nimbus]

Dies Irae is essentially just a way of foreshadowing that some bad evil stuff gonna go down while keeping in line with the religious motifs

Compared with beautiful moments in HK like PK's leitmotif and the vessel leitmotif being combined when sitting on PK's throne or in the endings its just kinda okay

[rough ingot]

pale king’s throne isnt even that great i mean

the endings of HK are all sad in their own ways

there is no “happy ending”

[lapis creek]

i dont really blame larkin for this i just dont really think he had as much to work with

or he did and it changed

[rough ingot]

With all the cut confent

also he didnt think widow was even gonna be in the game

[vestal swan]

That reminds me I was watching one of my clips looking for something earlier and the music for I want to say by water just does not fit, it makes me think of.. what was it my brain is drying a blank now that I'm trying to remember it damn it

[sinful nimbus]

bilewater?

Super Mario Galaxy

[silk dirge]

which is crazy considering its one of the best tracks

[vestal swan]

I liked the track, it didn't fit

[sinful nimbus]

And I like the theme

[silk dirge]

bilewater theme makes sense

[rough ingot]

he says it was an experiment

[vestal swan]

Maybe I'm thinking of a different swamp then

[sinful nimbus]

putrified ducts?

[silk dirge]

you are supposed to get a feeling of sadness of a once beautiful area

[vestal swan]

Which one has the big pukey guys

[random aspen]

he should experiment more

[silk dirge]

the abyss?

[vestal swan]

Flying*

[silk dirge]

thats bilewater

[rough ingot]

abyss doesnt need music, just ambiance

[foggy fractal]

? Bilewater

[sinful nimbus]

Ion fw the abyss ambience icl

[rough ingot]

why

[sinful nimbus]

Even though it was uh a giant baby corpse pit HK felt a lot more subtle about how it handled the area

[rough ingot]

i mean, we all took it for granted at first the knight could swim in the void sea after we turned the lighthouse on

[sinful nimbus]

Do you think Groal has wings because he's a stilkin offshoot like these guys are muckroach offshoots

[rough ingot]

possibly, and looks like soul master, and fricking vengevul spirit

[foggy fractal]

maybe, he also has a unique mouth

[rough ingot]

soul master’s mouth is also unique

[acoustic mango]

oi

[rough ingot]

Hi

[acoustic mango]

alguem é português?

[rough ingot]

non

[acoustic mango]

ok:(

[rough ingot]

hable anglais?

[silk dirge]

sorry thats the first thing i thought of 😭

[rough ingot]

caretaker is a strange guy…

Then act 3 occurs

[silk dirge]

oiii ahoii oiii

[rough ingot]

then hes got a strange idea

and one trap later

[silk dirge]

we tried to ensnare gms as a prank(gone wrong)

[sinful nimbus]

Caretaker best NPC if you ignore Cardinius

[rough ingot]

yea

and lace falls in

cuz GMs is fithibg the void to save Lace

[silk dirge]

i wonder if lace just jumped off gms none of act 3 wouldve happened

[rough ingot]

prob

evenn if hornet was sucked in

[silk dirge]

her ass had to fucking go down with gms

[rough ingot]

i think the knight woulda done everything they could to get hornet outa there

[foggy fractal]

what if you ignore both caretaker and cardinius

[silk dirge]

couriers

[rough ingot]

KNIGHT

[silk dirge]

it is impossible to hate tipp and pill

they're just silly little guys

[rough ingot]

True

[sinful nimbus]

Shakra

[rough ingot]

but the only reason knight shows up is to save us (and lace’s) asses

[foggy fractal]

I wonder who voiced tipp and pill

[rough ingot]

Hmm

wheres the VA list

[silk dirge]

cornifer is cool but shakras just better imo

[rough ingot]

Shakra fights, Iselda is implied to

[silk dirge]

shakra is iselda + cornifer

[rough ingot]

we dont eveb know how good iseldw was

[silk dirge]

i think sherma is meant to be the equivalent of quirrel

[rough ingot]

i mean, its not zote here were talking about, but not a fighter like Hornet

[lilac hedge]

What abur her master

[rough ingot]

plus quirrel even said that removing ummuu’s sheild was a trixk

[rough ingot]

dead, we have no idea

perhaps shakra surpassed her

and elder hu looks simialr to both of then

[random aspen]

seth: yoooo

theres no equivalent to glorious king quirrel but seth is the closest

garmond zaza is closer to quirrel than sherma

[unique canopy]

Sherma is more like what if Cornifer wasn't the map guy and was also a child

[random aspen]

shermas just uniquely him

i cant really compare him to a hk npc

woah no slowmode 🤑

[silk dirge]

trobbio and dung defender i think are meant to be equivalent characters

both very silly characters

[random aspen]

one has lore and the other has NOTHING

[silk dirge]

trobbio lore is TROBBIOOOOO

[random aspen]

if we we're to comparee hk npcs to silksong npcs sherma would probably be closest to quirrel since like almost every npc in hollow knight is lowkey miserable or old (i know quirrel is super old but his age is like paused or something)

[timber pond]

Im pretty sure the music is supposed to contrast hard with the area to make you wonder what's going on with it. Its like its playing the music of what bilewater was before it was Ruined. like a "Ruined" version/imperfect version of the track when it would have looked Clean.

[silk dirge]

honestly im a big fan of eva

i think her lore is pretty interesting

[random aspen]

thk if it was made by horrible people

[silk dirge]

the thing thats so silly about eva is shes like how fucking dumb were the weavers

how in the fuck did they think they were making a hb

[random aspen]

theyre smartasses doing stupid shit and thinking its smart

[unique canopy]

GMS is the primordial source of silk, therefore being of pure silk is going to be super powerful?
And Eva did have a considerable amount of power when it came to both analyzing a bug's identity and empowering it, what she lacked was being able to retain a physical form outside her life pod.

Not higher being levels of power obviously, but not bad for an uneducated stab in the dark by a bunch of uplifted pharlids

[silk dirge]

i mean it just seems kinda foolish for what are basically just ascended mortal bugs to think they can create a god

like sure they are good with silk

but good enough to create a god?

[spark valve]

He thought a performance would magically fix things For Some Reason, maybe he was hoping to be loud enough for the whole citadel who knows

[foggy fractal]

maybe he's dumb

[spark valve]

I mean that goes without saying

Maybe he’s also a rewrite victim like Seth who knows

[foggy fractal]

another rewrite victim 😭

[edgy nebula]

real ones remember when trobbio was an npc

[muted lantern]

Are we talking about trobbio?

[snow sonnet]

Fwiw the old file name for trobbio was npc_trobbio then got changed to boss_trobbio

[muted lantern]

It seems like a lot of his belief might have been inspired by tales of the grimm troupe, him thinking you could save a kingdom through reigniting its flames through performance, like the inverse of how grimm used performance to absorb the dying flames of a kingdom.

performance of a battle to the death

[vestal swan]

Troupe doesn't revive kingdoms

[muted lantern]

Im not saying he was right

im saying that he thought he could do that, based on a misunderstanding of what the troupes thing was.

hes still a dumbass

[vestal swan]

It doesn't make sense for him to think that, that's like the exact opposite of what they do and there's also no troupe presence for him to glean this information from

[edgy nebula]

oh my days

[timber pond]

Trovbio is actualy an escape from the troupe who is in debt to grim, so he tries to do the reverse of what he does

[muted lantern]

its just an idea, he has a lot of parrelels with the grimm in his aesthetic and his talk about flames being the sort of life force of a kingdom, it makes sense to me that hes just someone who heard legends of the troupe that werent quite accurate.

[frigid belfry]

they more of feast on dying kingdoms for nightmare essence (or whatever you call the shit nh eats)

[teal drift]

Trobbio and grimm probably have the same relationship that grimace and william afton have

[frigid belfry]

it implies that there was at least 1 kingdom that existed before hallownest that isnt pharloom

[unique lodge]

There's probably many

[muted lantern]

I don't think people understand what im saying, Im arguing he is someone whos heard of the grimm troupe but didn't really understand them, but he got inspiration from the story to try and revive a kingdom through performance, as a sort of inverse of what grimm does.

[unique canopy]

Basically, he heard stories of travelling performers visiting dead kingdoms and jumped to conclusions with incomplete information, is what you're saying.

[unique lodge]

Trobbio! Trobbio!

[frigid belfry]

ehh its unlikely the grimm troupe visited pharloom, and news doesnt seem to travel far in this universe

[muted lantern]

yes thats all im saying, thank you.

I think the parralells are to say hes a fanboy that didn't really understand what there deal really was. taking inspiration and trying to do something that wouldn't work, hes meant to be a comedic character and kinda a fool

[unique lodge]

But from the cradle lore tablets we know that in pharloom is aware of other kingdoms

[muted lantern]

I think it would be really funny if tormented trobbio summons the actual grimm troupe, though frankly id still rather we don't have any significant grimm troupe content in the dlc, i just think it'd be funny

[lone folio]

Aware enough to know where they are and what they are called

[unique lodge]

Aware enough to capture (part) weavers

[unique canopy]

"Our old boss kinda got his ass kicked and you're the only one flamboyant enough to join us."

Technically he's the boss of Whispering Vaults so who knows if he stumbled on some half-knowledge that was being hoarded away before the Vaultkeepers chased him off, although that's entirely speculative.

[frigid belfry]

||grimm troupe visits dying kingdoms, and are pretty niche, i can understand being aware of the city of steel/hn, but not gm||

[unique lodge]

Yes but pharloom is land of pilgrims coming from far of lands so if someone with knowledge of the grim troupe comes to pharloom for a pilgrimage perhaps the word could have spread to TROBBIO!

[unique canopy]

Plus the Citadel sent out people for various tasks, including to dead kingdoms if they think a Weaverspawn is there

[unique lodge]

Exactly my point

[unique canopy]

I don't think there's a hard connection between Trobbio and the Troupe, even in the sense of learning hearsay about them and trying to emulate it, but there's enough that if they wanted to make that kind of connection it wouldn't be an egregious retcon

[hollow ingot]

Trobbio ain’t connected at all 🤞

[sinful nimbus]

GRIMM in SILKSONG?
-# Theory breakdown

[random aspen]

if they ever do a grimm troupe dlc trobbio should beg grimm to join and we get a third trobbio fight callde terrible trobbio where hes bigger cus of the mask

[hollow ingot]

Grim and the Troupe most likely were never in/near Pharloom

The troupes goal is to search out and feed of dead kingdoms

Key word there

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway "flame" is used in a different context and being performative isn't really a unique trait that would indicate any meaningful connection

[hollow ingot]

dead

Pharloom isn’t considered a dead kingdom

The haunting makes the place a shit show to live in sure

But it’s not a dead or forgotten kingdom

So the troupe most likely never visited

[sinful nimbus]

He consumes the flames of a kingdom's fall which Pharloom is actively undergoing during the events of the game

[hollow ingot]

Or even came close

[edgy nebula]

watch us get a godmaster dlc, grimm troupe dlc, lifeblood dlc, and hidden dreams dlc or some stupid thing like that

[unique canopy]

Grimm doesn't show up to Hallownest until it was already a distant memory only known as a place for treasure hunters to ransack its ruins (and die horribly to the Infection in the process).

[sinful nimbus]

Well yes because his scout died and we had to help him

We don't know when they actually set up shop in Hallownest

[foggy fractal]

I geninuely think they may do a hidden dreams esque dlc, we already have a memory diving system so why not use it more right

[sinful nimbus]

Pious Isamor bossfight

[random aspen]

shakra master 🙏

[silk dirge]

eva boss fight

[random aspen]

does he attack you with words cus all he does is yap

[edgy nebula]

mottled skarr bossfight

[silk dirge]

outcast named gurr:

[hollow ingot]

He consumes the nightmare essence from already fallen kingdoms* it says it clearly in Hollow Knight.

The Grim child feeds off the nightmare essence found within kingdoms that have already fallen, and aren’t inhabited anymore. That’s why they arrive to Hollownest in the first place. Hollownest is a ghost town by the time the Knight shows up.

Pharloom on the other hand, is actively still being lived/inhabited in. There’s multiple instances of the Kingdom itself still being very much alive. Even with the haunting from Grand Mother silk going on.

[sinful nimbus]

Where's it say that

[edgy nebula]

actually yeah give us a mottled skarr trio fight

mottled skarr, unnamed mottled scout, gurr the outcast

[random aspen]

tbh were the mottled guys even friends

[edgy nebula]

prolly not

[sinful nimbus]

He only says he consumes the flames of a kingdom's fall afaik and that is a process Pharloom is undergoing (Hornet even notes the kingdom is nearly dead) until we save it

Its feasible enough nightmare essence would be produced for him to show up anyway

TRUE

Uh I mean please don't meme in here

[tawdry flare]

@obsidian delta can we meme in here

[vestal swan]

• pharloom is pretty dead by the end
• not remotely true HK has living inhabitants
• barely

[sinful nimbus]

Its not dead we save it

[random aspen]

lame

[obsidian delta]

Yuh

[hollow ingot]

It’s possible. But unlikely. Plus I don’t see team cherry redoing/rehashing any of the old DLC content from Hollow Knight. I love Godhome and the Grim Troupe as much as the next guy. But cherry already stated they wanna do “new things”

[tawdry flare]

Alright cool thanks

[hollow ingot]

Fuck

[sinful nimbus]

TC has 5 ideas

[hollow ingot]

Forgot to reply

[sinful nimbus]

They clearly don't care about reusing elements from HK

[foggy fractal]

why didn't they reuse colo then smh.

also what about bugpipers ? hm ?

[sinful nimbus]

Coral Tower is kinda like that

[foggy fractal]

FRAUD tower ain't nothing like GOATloseum

[sinful nimbus]

You got it backwards

[foggy fractal]

so GOAT tower ain't nothing like FRAUDloseum ?

[sinful nimbus]

Coral Tower: Crustaceans
Colosseum of Fools: No crustaceans because TC scrapped them because ???

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[foggy fractal]

yeah they could've just designed something still lobster esque

[untold tinsel]

I like your profile

[foggy fractal]

thanks

[edgy nebula]

they should update hollow knight and just replace god tamer with lobster lancer

make her a karakan riding a huge coral furm

[hollow ingot]

The only people who were still alive in HK were notable npcs that had been able to hold off the infection up to when the Knight shows up. But besides that, the entire kingdom had fallen under the Radiances infection.

But in Pharloom, we see multiple instances of the kingdom still being inhabited. There’s entire areas within Pharloom, like Shellwood that can completely run independently while something like the Haunting is going on. Not to mention all the Pilgrims we see, the npcs we meet, etc.

Pharloom isn’t dead, but is dying. And like I mentioned before, the troupe only visits Kingdoms that have completely fallen

[sinful nimbus]

Proof?

[vestal swan]

except you didn't confirm that with anything
TK summons them after their initial summoning failed by the way

[lethal burrow]

there are places in the kingdom where silk hangs around the dead, when playing the song near it, you can hear the memories of the dead bugs, it's fair to say this is because silk is related to soul in someway, but then... how is soul related to memory? And essence more precisely?

[sinful nimbus]

Can't believe we live in a timeline where Grimm Troupe silksong is plausible...

[sinful nimbus]

Soul/Silk seems to hold essence, an example of this would be Soul Warriors gaining new skills and thoughts without any training just by taking in the soul of other bugs. Don't ask how this fits in with uh brains and stuff

[vestal swan]

Soul isnt really directly tied to memory it's like a vessel for information transfer, it doesn't have to be memories it can be muscle memory or spells etc raw information

[edgy nebula]

where would the grimm troupe even show up in pharloom, it just doesnt fit the theme of the game imo

[sinful nimbus]

Well they are out of place in HK too

That's kinda the point

[hollow ingot]

This is the journal entry for Grimm. They consume the flames “of a kingdoms fall” or in other words. Consume the nightmare essences left over from a fallen kingdom.

Not a kingdom that is actively dying in present time.

[foggy fractal]

halloween 2026 trust

[vestal swan]

A kingdom can fall and not completely die

[sinful nimbus]

Yes so a kingdom falling produces nightmare essence that they can reap

[vestal swan]

Have you ever heard of a coup

[sinful nimbus]

Pharloom is falling

Therefore its producing nightmare essence in abundance

Therefore Grimm could plausibly show up

[subtle plaza]

De grace

[edgy nebula]

wish we got some information on what the weird pearls are in karak

was khann a fan of parkour

[hollow ingot]

Dude. It’s not saying “a falling kingdom” it’s saying a kingdom that has already fallen. That’s the key difference between Hollownest and Pharloom. Hollownest had completely fallen and been infected by the Radiance by the game starts. And who knows how long it took for the Knight to actually show up.

Pharloom is actively dying. We are seeing the falling of a Kingdom, and choosing to save it from that fate. Pharloom hasn’t already fallen by the time Hornet arrives. It’s still holds on to slivers of life through the kingdom.

[sinful nimbus]

It says a kingdoms fall

Pharloom had a fall

[vestal swan]

It hit the life alert button but it still fell

[wise sand]

hallownest is definitely dead for the most part but theres still people there

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't say "fallen kingdom" which is what I think you are envisioning

[wise sand]

i could see some rebuilding happening lowkey

[sinful nimbus]

If that was what it said you would be right but it doesn't say that

[edgy nebula]

hallownest is functionally dead aside from like, the mantises and flukes i guess, but the mantises were independent anyway

[trail wagon]

Btw do you guys think Wisp Thicket cult can be related to Grim in some way?

[edgy nebula]

no

[foggy fractal]

😨 a.... a.... what kingdom ?

[edgy nebula]

what is this, some kind of hollow nest?

[trail wagon]

Could it be the case that Grimm has already visited Pharloom?

[edgy nebula]

we have nothing to think that's the case

[sinful nimbus]

I mean that too Pharloom isn't the only kingdom in the region

[trail wagon]

Did they turn off slow mode? Or is it only for new members?

[foggy fractal]

what are we ? some sort of Hollow Knight ?

[sinful nimbus]

Even if for whatever reason Pharloom wouldn't count Khann's kingdom definitely would

So would Verdania

[edgy nebula]

what is this place? some kinda dirt mouth?

[trail wagon]

I mean the burnbugs resemble Grimm Troupe members visually and somewhat thematically, plus WHAT IF the Father of Flames is actually a Nightmare Heart idol? I know there's not really too much evidence for any of that lol

[edgy nebula]

theyre red

[hollow ingot]

No… the Grimm Troupe worship and follow the nightmare heart. Not whatever the fuck the wisp thicket cult was doing.

The Wisp cult is interesting tho. I might go back and look at that area a bit more. Because we don’t really know everything bout it.

[edgy nebula]

hk characters can be red

i wont lie there are a few similarities, namely father of the flame being father of the flame, and burn the father feed the child stuff in hk, but i dont want it to be true

[trail wagon]

What is even more interesting, is that initially there was supposed to be Void Cult

thanks

[unique canopy]

Aren't they a fire cult because they tried burning their silk to avoid the haunting?

[edgy nebula]

they dont look very similar tbf

[edgy nebula]

we dont know

notably the fire isnt pink

[trail wagon]

I mean to me it seems kinda weird that they would just randomly add two different "cults" that share a lot of similarities and make them completely unrelated

Not to say it's impossible

[sinful nimbus]

Lot of similarities (fire)

[trail wagon]

Yeah, not too much

[trail wagon]

Weeeeell, also their caps

[trail wagon]

You're right though

[edgy nebula]

wisp thicket is very visibly a play on doomsday cults where the leaders pressure everyone to kill themselves and stuff, i think fotf and the wisps fit the theming nicely

[quick geyser]

What is the lore of wisp thicket actually?

[trail wagon]

I mean yeah, I get that the similarities are very shallow

[vestal swan]

I don't think it's really a doomsday cult because they seem to be getting results by making sacrifices and worshiping this thing

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think these are all too similar tbh

[hollow ingot]

‘A kingdoms fall’ is another way to say “fallen kingdom.” It’s referring to the past tense, they seek out the fall of a kingdom (one that has already been dead for quite awhile) then proceed to feed off the essence that leaked out from said kingdom. Then the process repeats over, and over again.

[sinful nimbus]

In the case of the Grimmkin its kinda generic ghost stuff too

[trail wagon]

Yeah, I get that

[sinful nimbus]

It is a fall that belongs to a kingdom

[vestal swan]

Synonyms do not create dialogue out of thin air

[sinful nimbus]

Pharloom had a fall

[edgy nebula]

i feel like burning bugs origins were either

a fake god/cult made by the first of their kind
an alive, present god, leading the burning bugs
a dead/gone god, who made the wisps and which they made the fotf to get closer to/as an offering

[hollow ingot]

They like, hella fucking different 😭🤞 one isn’t even technically alive

[sinful nimbus]

"one that has already been dead for quite awhile" is completely baseless

[trail wagon]

Me too, I don't think there's anything that suggests they react to the outer world events, rather they unalive themselves after you kill their god

[vestal swan]

They what

[edgy nebula]

fotf isnt actually their god it's just a statue with an old burning bug at the center

[trail wagon]

I understand that what I'm saying is mostly my wants, but I reaaaaaally wanna get some connection between Grimm and the fire cult ahahha

It just feels like there should be, I know, it's probably not a good basis for a theory, to put it mildly ahahha

[edgy nebula]

either as an offering to the god or as a way to ascend to godhood

[vestal swan]

Its journal entry says they are worshiping it as a god?

[limpid summit]

There’s nothing saying the troupe couldn’t have been in Pharloom

[trail wagon]

These bugs could be inspired by them

[edgy nebula]

oh it does, i cant read

[limpid summit]

All the dead kingdom leeches like MM have likely tread a few paths over and over

[trail wagon]

Or maybe somebody has seen the troupe and came up with their own religion, you know

again, it's not like there's any actual factual evidence of that lol

[limpid summit]

See if SotV didn’t exist I wouldn’t even think that FotF and GT could have any connection

[trail wagon]

what's FotF?

[foggy fractal]

father of the flame

[limpid summit]

But I mean the most popular HK character besides TK and Hornet is Grimm

[vestal swan]

There shouldn't be tho? None of it is related besides fire

[edgy nebula]

father of the flame

[hollow ingot]

Father of the flame

[trail wagon]

SotV - sister of the void?

[limpid summit]

So I unfortunately expect a little fanservice

[trail wagon]

the ending?

[vestal swan]

SOTV conflicts with itself I don't understand why that would mean that other things can show up

[trail wagon]

Gotchaaa

[edgy nebula]

the only relations are fire and the burning bugs pinkish cloaks, and fotf looking a bit like nightmare heart if youre blind in both eyes

[trail wagon]

What's the connection between SotV and FotF?

[limpid summit]

“Hey look at that did you see that?That’s the thing from the first game!”

[vestal swan]

They're saying if TC can badly connect things from the first game then it could happen again

[trail wagon]

I mean kinda yeah

[vestal swan]

Troupe doesn't burn bugs

[limpid summit]

I don’t think currently the connection between NMH and FotF is extremely meaningful but you could sort of say it is there

[trail wagon]

Are they suggesting SofV connects them badly?

[vestal swan]

It does

[limpid summit]

But you’d have to ignore the common tropes of fire that their similarities connect to

Like dancing flame isn’t just GT it’s a common idea of fire

[foggy fractal]

sister of the void
father of the flame
clearly that means void and flame are related...

[vestal swan]

SOTV conflicts with itself

[edgy nebula]

well yeah, theyre different from the troupe and im not defending the theory

[edgy nebula]

brother of the light when?

[timber pond]

Father of the Flame seems more like a spell than an entity. If you belive that the Tablet in the snail chapel for "flickering flame" is a thing

[trail wagon]

why?

[foggy fractal]

dlc

[trail wagon]

why?

[limpid summit]

Technically NMH is a father of the flame

[foggy fractal]

just look at those names...

[sinful nimbus]

SO TRUE

[limpid summit]

All the Grimms have been its spawn

[hollow ingot]

Dude what 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Red Memory should've had grimm lowk

[trail wagon]

moss MOTHER ahahahhaha

[foggy fractal]

😱

[vestal swan]

They don't have to be the same thing and that wouldn't remove father of the flame from being an entity being worshipped

[unique tangle]

i just realized hornet is talking about herself in that dialogue

[edgy nebula]

so do we think fotf was entirely bug-made and not a god at all

[trail wagon]

it's probably a joke

[limpid summit]

Red memory should genuinely have had nmh in thr background what does he even do

[sinful nimbus]

Why would you name it RED memory and not have a nightmare heart cameo and instead you put in the hive for some reason i just don't get it

[hollow ingot]

Why? Hornet never even met them

[foggy fractal]

this means that hive is retconned to be red...

[sinful nimbus]

They don't call her Hornet Sentinel for nothing

[limpid summit]

Redcon

[timber pond]

Im just saying that that "fire" can likely be created under certain conditions perhaps.

[edgy nebula]

hornet is grimm troupe, trobbio is grimm troupe, herrah (retconned) is grimm troupe, burning bugs are grimm troupe, it’s all grimm

[sinful nimbus]

Its tuffer than Vespa

[limpid summit]

Rubbing two sticks together

[trail wagon]

I think FotF is there to heat up the bell

[sinful nimbus]

It also explains why Grimm calls PK his "dear wyrm"

[trail wagon]

And it's somehow used by the Citadel

[edgy nebula]

yeah i like this theory

fotf is a space heater