sk-lore

[gloomy heart]

Also verdania too

Bc one of the princes was explicitly used by the citadel

[dreamy onyx]

my guess is that they we're mitigated but alllowed to somewhat coexist during GMS' reign, but they were almost certainly destroyed by the time of the waevers

[gloomy heart]

So that might be a more recent collapse

[jade skiff]

Citadel is FUCKING evil bro 😭

[dreamy onyx]

citadel just colonised half of pharloom

[stable violet]

unlike verdania, at least karak partially survived kinda, i mean some of its flora and fauna persist at least, proving that red is better then green

[humble peak]

citadel is just england

and Verdania is ireland, clearly

[gloomy heart]

If green is so bad how is shellwood still standing

[jade skiff]

GMS is british confirmed

[stable violet]

shellwood doesnt count

[dreamy onyx]

that's what ive been saying!

[gloomy heart]

I would agree but greymoor is the uk so something doesnt add up

[dreamy onyx]

verdania could be ireland but i think it'd probably be a farther colony like india or the pacific

since their culture was exoticised with the cogwork dancers and i dont know if that happened with ireland

[dire lynx]

me and the boys muddying the Karak timeline

[humble peak]

greymoor is directly below the citadel
it's just the regular part of england, the citadel is the castle or whatever

[gloomy heart]

real

tho again i stand by probably some of them surviving past the kingdom’s fall and being captured for use in the memorium

[stable violet]

you think the meat of those coral bugs might taste like lobster?

[jade skiff]

I wonder how higher beings of Hollownest react to how Pharloom and the Citadel act and work

"We enslaved bugs forcing them to work under us blindly by also casting religion and colonizing lands, inlcuding the fall of a kingdom owned by 2 prince"
"what the FUCK"

[gloomy heart]

“and i thought my mass infanticide was bad holy shit dawg”

[dreamy onyx]

the citadel would be london

[gloomy heart]

bilewater is birmingham

[dreamy onyx]

the pale king never did anything THAT bad

[dire lynx]

more like crabs, i recon the karaka and their like would be lobster tasting

[vague whale]

Bilewater is Ireland

[dreamy onyx]

like worst he had was a class divide in the city of tears and some failed attempts to move into deepnest

[jade skiff]

Pale king would recoil at how GMS ruled

[gloomy heart]

i thought we were saying verdania is ireland lol

[humble peak]

everything is ireland

[gloomy heart]

Wonder how radiance would react lol

[stable violet]

the citadel missed its chance to be a culinary hotspot fr smh

[dreamy onyx]

it could be ireland tbf

[gloomy heart]

shame they let go of ass jim

[dire lynx]

"She's stealing my gig!"

[dreamy onyx]

i think the destruction motif certainly lines up

but now i just wonder who the skarrs would be

[gloomy heart]

“stole my whole flow, word for word bar for bar”

[jade skiff]

"How did you react when you were trapped also?"
"I cursed half of this land to eternal slavery and devotion to me"
"Yoooooooo me too"

[gloomy heart]

classic higher being activities

grimm would probably just pop in, say “damn that’s crazy”, and promptly move on LMAO

[stable violet]

grimm would just leave a lantern and wait for said kingdom to die tbh

[dreamy onyx]

okay wait i just realised something else

how the fuck does the diving bell work. if they're descending through the lava, how does the lava not just flow through the abyss

[gloomy heart]

video game

jokes aside idk there’s probably some blockage somewhere

[jade skiff]

where did even grimm come from

[gloomy heart]

or they made an opening apparatus

[jade skiff]

abyss or lava either overlap each other to the point like

oil and water

[gloomy heart]

nightmare heart

Dont ask where that comes from it isnt explained aside from it having dominion over nightmares

[dreamy onyx]

maybe the void is solid

[gloomy heart]

void is fucked up lava theory

[dreamy onyx]

or it's just solid enough to keep the lava from flowing through while allowing the diving bell to go through

[stable violet]

void has shown to be a gas, a liquid and a solid

[gloomy heart]

but can void be a plasma /s

[jade skiff]

void and lava can act like oil and water

just...floating on top of each other

[stable violet]

idk, maybe with enough soul magic infused with void spell perhaps

what is magic but simply unexplained science afterall

[gloomy heart]

tbf that doesn’t explain how the diving bell entrance doesnt have lava unless the actual air in the abyss is denser than lava

[jade skiff]

Air in the abyss must be CRACKED holy shit

[gloomy heart]

i def think this is just a case of video game logic tho

not meant to have any story significance just there so the game can work

[stable violet]

as cool as that lava scene was it really does leave food for thought as to why it was there when uh void is also there

[dreamy onyx]

maybe the lava mixes with void

[gloomy heart]

maybe lava is sentient and has its own higher being /s

[dreamy onyx]

the void transitions from a liquid into a solid so it keeps the lava out

perhaps the void is pliabale enough for the bell to make it through

[gloomy heart]

maybe, dont think we’ll ever have a proper answer tho and again it comes across to me as just a video game thing and not an indicator of how the abyss works

[stray fog]

But what makes hallownest special so that charms form when bugs die or whatever the lore is
Some thing like this should be a universal phenomenon

[heavy gyro]

Does void extinguish flintslate

[gloomy heart]

i dont think so

[dreamy onyx]

i hope we can do more things in the abyss in the DLCs

[gloomy heart]

void can also fuse with the slugs that spit lava at you (and seemingly fuses with the lava they spit out too?)

[gloomy heart]

word

[dreamy onyx]

what do you guys think we'll get for DLC

[humble peak]

pharloom bay

boss rush

[gloomy heart]

Steel assassin dlc for sure

[stray fog]

Most people really want a boss rush

[dreamy onyx]

I'm betting on three
Pharloom Bay
Steel Assasins
Godhome

they could aways do more than 4 dlcs too

[gloomy heart]

Boss rush i believe will be saved for the very end

So it can include dlc bosses

[dreamy onyx]

pharloom bay dlc would be super interesting

i wonder what you'd do

[gloomy heart]

Expanded memory dlc would also make a lot of sense (this way we’d see more of the coral gorge, the old ant kingdom, etc)

[jade skiff]

the npc in pharloom bay looks similiar to the guy in hollownest city of tears

[stray fog]

Lifeblood was found in pharloom bay so maybe more lifeblood lore

[dreamy onyx]

true true...

[stray fog]

Lemm

[dreamy onyx]

maybe lemm is also from pharloom

lol

[gloomy heart]

Plasmium dlc where you go to pharloom bay as part of it would be sick

[jade skiff]

I bet you this place is where we can travel to other kingdomes (joke)

but maybe theres a realllllylyyy long lake where we cant pass because its the other edge of pharloom

[gloomy heart]

This is cool but i dont think we’d see coral stuff in city of steel considering how specifically tied to karak it is

[dreamy onyx]

i would think that yeah that's true

[gloomy heart]

Maybe hornet gets a new ability where she can swim under the water and this opens up new pathways in shellwood, bilewater, greymoor, etc

Fuck if ik lol

[dreamy onyx]

imagine if they did another HK dlc

now that silksong isn't occupying their time anymore

im joking but like... maybe?

[gloomy heart]

i doubt they would because silksong is still occupying their time via dlc

[stray fog]

Addressing the recons

[mild cloud]

[gloomy heart]

king of deepnest

[dreamy onyx]

maybe

[gloomy heart]

they have directly confirmed they are making dlc and have “ambitious” plans for it

Like with HK i assume it will be free

[stable violet]

i wonder if whisp thicket will get an expansion, it kinda just "shows up" has a gimick boss but hardly much more explanation

[gloomy heart]

low key elegy of the deep spot in wisp thicket might go kinda crazy

[stray fog]

Considering how goated godmaster was, the DLCs for silksong will be bangers

[gloomy heart]

and grimm troupe dont forget how fire that was

[dreamy onyx]

i would honestly pay for it

[stable violet]

im not sure if grimm troupe will show up but i remember when people acted like we wouldnt see the void in silksong so we will see lol

[gloomy heart]

i would too but given TC’s track record it will be free

[dim plover]

i wouldn't mind paying

[gloomy heart]

Idk how hot of a take this is but even tho it would be cool i kinda hope they dont do a grimm troupe dlc for silksong

I’d rather we see TC explore more new ideas

I wouldnt be that opposed to it existing just isnt what i want them to focus on

[gloomy heart]

the humble void smoke in the silksong release date trailer

[stable violet]

im gonna be real, tc can explore new ideas while also thinking of old stuff

its not like they cant have the process power to think of multiple ideas at once

[gloomy heart]

that’s true

again i wouldnt mind if it existed i’d just prefer them do other things more tied to pharloom (or fully original) lol

if they make a grimm trouple dlc for skong i’m sure it would also be peak

[stable violet]

i say i prefer them to do other things and only when they are done with the new things then they can think about stuff we already know

[gloomy heart]

i agree with this

[stable violet]

having godhome in silksong would be weird though, i think they should make something like godhome but minus the godseekers cause godseeker lore is a mess

i say that knowing full well how much silksong made a mess with lore from the previous game

[gloomy heart]

they probably will because touching godhome directly would force them to hard confirm if that ending was canon

[dim plover]

well with how the true ending is right now it seem like that ending with delicate flower was "cannon"

[gloomy heart]

it’s purposefully too vague to say imo

[stable violet]

having godhome as the canon ending would be cringe

[gloomy heart]

thematically i like the idea of dream no more being canon much more but there are valid cases to be made for both that and the two versions of embrace the void

[dim plover]

i suppose so, wasn't any explation after the flower activated, did it sent em down below earth as banishment? or rather to somewhere else that the shaman conjured up?

[stable violet]

like unironically almost everyone agrees that dream no more was better fitting ending

in hk

[dim plover]

trueee

[gloomy heart]

yeah

again i think they keep it purposefully vague to equally reward players who beat the main game and those who went the extra mile and beat p5

[dim plover]

any speculation on what the everbloom is (it certainly a better version of the delicate flower, minus the delicate part)
and why does the white lady had it? even though she reject our gift in the first game?

[gloomy heart]

And tbh i dont think they will ever clarify because of that

[stable violet]

also godhome being the canon ending would be so weird, think about it, why would you go out of your way to look for a bug you had no idea was in a landfill that was looking for a god to follow, beat up a bunch of bosses while at the same time said godseeker is also insulting you with every chance she gets, ghost has literally 0 incentive to actually wanna do anything there

[gloomy heart]

The white lady gives it in hornet’s memories so i dont think she physically “has” it

[dim plover]

i'm more questioning it origin

[gloomy heart]

“thou cringer” ngl i would kill her too

[gloomy heart]

iirc grey mourner describes it to be from a distant land and that land is definitely not pharloom so idk

white lady also calls it the “first light” implying it is ancient

[dim plover]

but i wonder why white lady specifically

[marble oasis]

TK is just about the smoke, it loves fighting the bosses over and over

[gloomy heart]

it is also described as having a “pale glow” so idk

[gloomy heart]

idk, it makes the most sense out of the characters we do see tho bc her nature as a pale being does allow her to speak with hornet directly

[stable violet]

true, beating up flukemarm for being a bad boss is total justification

[dim plover]

i think that the white lady and everbloom (might even the pale beast thingy in green prince dream aswell) are from the same land which we don't know yet

[gloomy heart]

maybe tho we dont see anything about her or her offspring being resistant to void (especially considering her offspring were infused with it)

[dim plover]

okay crack theory, everbloom is "first light", it will probably mean that it source is from a primodial being that even surpass higher being

[gloomy heart]

She also describes the flower as the only means to combat it which wouldn’t make sense if she herself was immune

[gloomy heart]

maybe, we have so little to go off of it’s hard to say

[dim plover]

like the origin of higher beings

[gloomy heart]

godseeker does recognize its glow but sees no godliness in it

“An offering? Yes. The Crawler makes an offering to Us. Rare bloom, tiny and pure. No God, though. No godliness. But still...
What does Crawler ask for in return? To touch? Our thick, gleaming hide? To see? See the exquisite face beneath Our mask? Such strange prayers!
No. No! Crawler presumes too much. The gift is Ours. Kept by Us. But Our mysteries will be preserved.”

“Gods. Many shapes, they assume. This bloom, then? A splinter? Cast-off? Refuse of something greater?
No. No tune. If it sings... We can not hear it.”

Could also be that whatever higher being this was is so old even the godseeker cant detect it

[dim plover]

yeah i wouldn't really trust em with the whole "i can tune any gods"

[gloomy heart]

true they thought massive moss charger was a god LMAO

[dim plover]

also i'd like to touch that thick gleaming hide

i'm going to wear my tinfoil hat and hope that future dlc will be about the origin of the everbloom

[gloomy heart]

https://tenor.com/view/bonk-doge-gif-24837098

[gloomy heart]

havent heard this idea proposed before but this would be legitimately fucking awesome

who knows maybe they tie it in with the city of steel lol

[dim plover]

you hear it from ME first! okay?

don't trust it, i'm bad at predicting thing, i predicted silk song release in 2022

[gloomy heart]

lmao real

even if it doesnt happen it’s a cool idea

regardless on if it is “plausible”

[dim plover]

( i just want more white lady lore)

[gloomy heart]

i want more greyroot lore tbh (which could tie in with WL too)

because i want to know more about what in the capital F Fuck was going on with her lol

It’s so funny that the only higher being we know anything about the origin of is the pale king (and maybe to some extent the radiance lol)

[inner nacelle]

Sequel in the city of steel

Give it to the hollow knight shade form or Seth

Blackbarrens would make for a mid sequel prequel

[twin dragon]

True

Godhome's lore as a whole is rlly weird

and so is the ending

[twin dragon]

There were a bunch of retcons but aside from that it followed up pretty well

[stable violet]

you know when i think of good story telling

"a bunch of retcons"

isnt one of them

like yeah there are genuinely a lot of neat and epic things

but with so many retcons i really hope tc answers them one day and explains it in some kind of ama if that ever happens again

also hornet's behaviour is uh, questionable at times to say the least

she talking a lot of smack about her father even though pk was a damn saint compared to most other higher beings we see

[twin dragon]

Retcons can be both good and bad retcons

the perception of rectons changed because people keep throwing them around at things they dont like

[twin dragon]

the wardenfly entry incident

[twin dragon]

Isn't that like

[stable violet]

what you see as good or bad may be different but to me most of said retcons are kinda bad

[twin dragon]

a single entry

[stable violet]

she has dialouge from that gay prince bug in the dream saying something along the lines of "devotion or destruction these are the only fates my kind will allow" something along those lines im paraphrasing

which is total bs when we know pk tried to negotiate with the other inhabitants of hallownest

[twin dragon]

She could be referring to the weavers

Though yeah

Im kind of confused by verdania's timeline as a whole

[stable violet]

"caught beneath a being pale"

[twin dragon]

since it seems like they challenged gms's rule but the cogwork dancers are a thing in the citadel

[stable violet]

yeah no she is def talking about pale beings here with him

[twin dragon]

Pk was too good of a monarch ngl

And hollow knight's lore is already quite a mess leaving a bunch of loose ties

[stable violet]

yeah if what hornet said was true pk wouldve subjugated and or outright destroyed deepnest/the hive

[twin dragon]

especially the dlcs

[stable violet]

but he didnt do that

[twin dragon]

Wasn't hive outright isolated from the rest of the kingdom

[stable violet]

anyways this convo is interesting and i wish i had more time but i gotta play deep rock galactic, gotta get all cores

[stoic moth]

possible that pk's restraint was a result of reducing himself from wyrm into small bug?

[stable violet]

ill see you all later maybe

[twin dragon]

Like it outright didn't participate in any of the affairs related to hallownest

[craggy smelt]

they walled themselves off from the rest of the land yes, but people still knew they were there

[twin dragon]

Pharloom's previous kingdoms were directly involved in pharloom's affair though

especially coral

Also ngl nyleth should've been the optional heart

It's the most hidden out of the three, and she doesn't fit the "ruler" status

[craggy smelt]

snails are GP fans, they tried to spare him

[stoic moth]

idk she had the biggest and most survived kingdom though

[twin dragon]

It's not a "kingdom"

There's no ruler, no hierarchy

Nyleth grew out to be shellwood

[stoic moth]

and based on the fight it seems plausible she was highly mobile throughout shellwood

[twin dragon]

there was barely any shellwood before nyleth

literally referred to as the "first seed"

Also all that questline is wasted to be optional content

that doesn't give much reward

[stoic moth]

ok but we don't know if she's literally first seed planted in chronological order
or like first in terms of social status and she just happened to be the biggest/most successful of the plants

[twin dragon]

She's pretty damn old

What is up with the clover dancers and verdania

who actually destroyed verdania

there are evidence that points towards both the citadel AND gms

[orchid trail]

Canon?

[twin dragon]

no

remove the brain

[orchid trail]

Ohhh

Makes sense

After some research I found out they have bombs

[spark reef]

According to Mossbag, it seems that GMS may have retaliated after the Weavers left Pharloom and this may have happened when the pilgrims were taking care of stuff.

i mean, we definitely have a strong understanding that the bugs sent after Hornet were haunted.

[twin dragon]

which is not true as she was only active before the citadel and whenever the haunting first began

So all that time period the weavers and conductors ruled

[twin dragon]

Also i doubt it was gms's decision to encase the prince's soul into automatons

[spark reef]

didn't the citadel exist after GMS was present in Pharloom or are we just assuming that.

[twin dragon]

yeah, she did, but gms was forced asleep by the weavers

[spark reef]

No. That would be the conductors.

[twin dragon]

that's the point

Gms is mentioned to have part of the blame

the evidence points towards both

but it can not be both

[spark reef]

i mean, the whole system seems to benefit GMS in weaving soul into silk.

Basically if Dracula was a god, he would have disciples farm blood in the name of faith.

[twin dragon]

Not true

the entirety of the citadel was designed and crafted to keep gms asleep

and it profited off her weakened state to extract silk

in no way it benefitted her

aside from maybe some worship from the high caste that realized gms was caged

[spark reef]

you're right.

this was the weavers plan.

but that makes me wonder, who really was responsible for decimating Verdania.

We know one of the Green Princes sacrificed their life to the Citadel in an effort to keep Verdania safe.

But considering that we see the other Green Prince locked in a cage at sinners road, this leads us to believe that the Citadel was responsible for Verdania's demise.

[twin dragon]

That's what im asking

GP mentions pale light

or hornet

p sure

[spark reef]

here's what we also know.

[twin dragon]

But the guy is locked in sinner's road

probably voluntarily

[spark reef]

If you're saying that the Green Prince could be a Penitent the whole time, i would beg to differ.

He may have gotten tired after seeing what has become of his kingdom and the rest of Pharloom.

But i get the sense that he was initially captured.

[twin dragon]

Eh

He could've been captured but he's willing to endure being caged

[spark reef]

that's what i am saying.

this.

Are they the ones who swing those stars at you?

or the ones with the bent pin?

[twin dragon]

Doesn't really matter

[spark reef]

OH!

[twin dragon]

but yeah

[spark reef]

yeah, i recognize them,

i need to check if we have seen any other corpses aside from pilgrims in Verdania.

[twin dragon]

We see pharlids there but that's because the environment is perfect for em

and they probably moved there post destruction

[spark reef]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWoRbZN0UHg

for clarification, i will refer to the green prince caged in Sinners Road as Caged GP.

And the one who died in the Citadel as Slave GP

[twin dragon]

you can js look up the dialogues in the wiki

[spark reef]

It seems that Slave GP sacrificed his life to make the Cogwork Dancers.

which means that he and the architect have a relation.

but it's unclear if Slave GP made a deal with the Citadel or if he was already a part of the Citadel's machinations before Verdania fell.

[twin dragon]

He did make a deal with either gms or the citadel

allat before verdania fell

[spark reef]

What's also surprising is that there is ZERO trace of anything that was once Verdania.

which means it could have been decades or centuries since Verdania was destroyed.

But if it was indeed centuries, why hasn't the Green Prince aged?

[twin dragon]

I mean who says he didn't

[spark reef]

Again, maybe because the Caged GP has an extensive lifespan.

[twin dragon]

he probably does

[spark reef]

i guess no one.

[twin dragon]

since he's a strong mortal thingy

[spark reef]

but we also know that bugs can grow old.

For example, Karmelita.

When Hornet meets her in Far Fields, she looks frail and old.

Even her voice is not what it used to be.

One could say that it might be because of her efforts in keeping the Haunting at bay.

since her singing and leadership kept her tribe safe from GMS & the Citadel.

[twin dragon]

She could simply be way older than gp

[spark reef]

that too.

the destruction of verdania seems like a very significant event that took place in Pharloom.

yet there are very few clues about what could have actually taken place.

however, one thing is clear.

The Green Prince is the last of his kind.

[twin dragon]

This indicates that it was, indeed, gms

[spark reef]

at least, that's the case in Pharloom.

[twin dragon]

But cogwork dancers existing seemingly contradict this

[spark reef]

how so?

Technically, the citadel exists below the Cradle.

So, in a way, GMS was certainly responsible for Verdania's demise.

We just don't know how exactly.

[twin dragon]

Not rlly?

the citadel operated to the weavers/conductor's accord

until the haunting

the haunting is a recent occurence though

and verdania fell a long time ago

[spark reef]

Doesn't make sense. Why would the weavers or conductors order the destruction of Verdania?

if it wasn't due to GMS?

[twin dragon]

Competition

Why would gms want a prince sacrifice anyways

[cedar skiff]

why wouldn’t they

[lyric widget]

the Green Prince says it was the Haunting that caused the ruin of Verdania: "So long, I dared not visit… Even as our lands fell to** thread** and ruin…"

[cedar skiff]

they did that to all the old hearts

[twin dragon]

He refers to pharloom

Verdania is stated to have been destroyed a long time ago

along with the other kindgoms

[lyric widget]

it doesn't make sense for "our lands" to refer to Pharloom, and Verdania was still fine when the Citadel was around

[spark reef]

i guess it would have the same reason as weavers or conductors wanting to keep Verdania docile

[lyric widget]

he says it was "thread" that ruined Verdania, full context of the sentence:
"His whole he gave, in desperate trade to see our own caves left safe. His shell and soul became the mould.
So long, I dared not visit… Even as our lands fell to thread and ruin…"

[cedar skiff]

except nyleth

[twin dragon]

who says that

[lyric widget]

it was Grand Mother Silk who destroyed Verdania, but not directly as with the other lands, but later on through the Haunting

[cedar skiff]

theres rly is no evidence that gms herself fucked with any of pharlooms old residents herself

[lyric widget]

the sentence I just sent " His whole he gave, in desperate trade to see our own caves left safe. His shell and soul became the mould."

[twin dragon]

Is there any evidence that verdania existed with the citadel

[twin dragon]

Yeah that's what confusing me most

If the haunting did destroy verdania

then it must've begun a long time ago

which contradicts kind of the entire point

[lyric widget]

not really, it was still Grand Mother Silk who destroyed Verdania regardless

[twin dragon]

And hornet's dialogue implies that they fought back against her

[lyric widget]

the Haunting is still caused by her anyway

[lyric widget]

that line doesn't really imply that imo

[spark reef]

Her kind being pale beings?

[lyric widget]

it's just Hornet saying that you can't win against a pale higher being

[cedar skiff]

this implies it to have been a deal with the citadel itself. meaning gms had to be asleep. the citadel/weavers were at one point engaging with all the old residents of pharloom. they felled khann, made a truce with nyleth and fucked over verdania. karmelita had aura and the skarr only fell after she grew old.

[twin dragon]

yeah

[lyric widget]

that's still agreeing with my point

[lyric widget]

it's also not just "thread" it's also "ruin"

[lyric widget]

the "end" here is the void

[stray fog]

Why didn't gms come after the weaver we see in hk

[twin dragon]

dead

[lyric widget]

the haunting isn't that recent really, it's been generations:
Hornet to Seamstress: "I have ventured high, seen the Citadel and its state. That place is long lost... generations lost, a gilded tomb, drowned in Silk dregs."

[stray fog]

There is one living weaver in hk

[twin dragon]

or they ran off as weaversong indicates

[spark reef]

say i agree with you. Say the weavers and conductors ordered the destruction or verdania and brought down khann. Why? What would they gain by fighting against these factions?

[twin dragon]

It could've just died by the time gms started waking up

or maybe recon didn't find her

[cedar skiff]

the citadel had a reason to destroy verdania because its flora and fauna an incredibly fast to spread, the bugs are well trained and trusting of their rulers. The weavers wanted to be the one rulers of course theyd take down any opponents

[twin dragon]

Nothing to oppose their rule

[cedar skiff]

gms has no reason to take down verdania

the conductors actually tried to put verdania in the memorium too

[twin dragon]

Now that you're saying this it's making a bit more sense

Though this sentence implies that they resisted her rule

[cedar skiff]

to be the one ruling force in pharloom

[twin dragon]

And fought back

just like the other kingdoms

[spark reef]

As a weird way to preserve things before all was lost, i suppose..

[cedar skiff]

do you think the native bugs of pharloom would have been fine with being colonized?

[twin dragon]

They have biomes that haven't been destroyed in there

so there's still a possibility that verdania had a gradual decline

[spark reef]

but you don't find any of the wildlife that we find in Lost Verdania in the memorium!

[twin dragon]

For some reason it didn't end up being in the memorium

[cedar skiff]

because they got rid of it

it was in the memorium but terminated because it was invasive to it

[spark reef]

there was a statement.

[cedar skiff]

"Containment fails. Memory lost. Excise outer. Maintain inner. Shellwood stasis sustained - Remember. Marrowlands stasis critical - Remember. Verdanian environment exceeded - Destined to forget."

it fucked with everything else

[spark reef]

Do we know who made the Memoriam in the first place?

Was it the Architects?

[cedar skiff]

as in who built it? im not sure but the conductors ordered its creation

[twin dragon]

Not sure, but it was ordered by the conductors

[spark reef]

interesting. The conductors ordered it but not the architects?

[twin dragon]

I mean they're the ones in charge of EVERYTHING

[spark reef]

i am actually remembering the layout of the citadel as well.

[cedar skiff]

hold up his writing is this fire

i mean it obv makes sense this way i just didnt know if there was evidence

[spark reef]

"learned disciples of the Choir" are these the bugs we find near the whispering vaults?

[twin dragon]

These mfs

there are like 2 of those i think

or 3

in one specific spot

soo

[spark reef]

no wonder they are extremely rare.

cause i get the sense that keeping the whole memoriam thing went to shit after the haunting.

maybe some of these bugs have bailed?

[abstract rivet]

What’s the lore of the marrow whys it all lava n bones

[twin dragon]

mate, everything went to shit after the haunting

[twin dragon]

Corpse

[abstract rivet]

why corpses thats sad

[spark reef]

No kidding. but what i was trying to state is that the memoria bugs are extremely rare in the citadel.

same as the grand reeds.

[twin dragon]

Grand reeds were the elite ones it makes sense

memoriae probably died out

Also isn't it sad how the pilgrims kept climbing the citadel, even if it was silenced ages ago

[spark reef]

I mean, i get the sense that these pilgrims are holding onto a false hope of freedom and divinity.

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[spark reef]

While there may be strength in their conviction, it is misplaced.

This is one of the central themes.

[twin dragon]

Is it?

Its silksong theme discussion time!

[abstract rivet]

whats the choir hierarchy

[spark reef]

Yes. Have you noticed the storyline for the Judges and the Wardens?

not to mention the Pale King and his vessels?

[twin dragon]

They're slaves

yeah

Just like the pilgrims

[spark reef]

Well, they weren't forced.

[twin dragon]

I'd also argue that consequences/responsibility is one of those central themes

[spark reef]

yup.

[twin dragon]

As the weavers are forced to deal with the impending doom of her mother waking up

even if some believed that the citadel will keep hear sealed forever

Act 3's also a big demonstration of this

[spark reef]

Also, it's so interesting to see that Herrah, unlike other mother figures in the game, never imposed her needs or the Weaver's needs onto Hornet.

GMS did that with Lace and it backfired spectacularly.

[twin dragon]

Well motherhood's a big theme for a reason

[spark reef]

hornet also starts out as someone who just wanted to know why she was captured to putting her life on the line to save Lace and all of Pharloom.

She disliked the notion of sacrificing because of her past and yet, when push came to shove, she decided to save Pharloom by going to the depths of an Abyss.

[twin dragon]

She took responsibility

And several times it has been shown that one should not play with the void

It backfired

While the conductors enjoyed their lavish existence, instead of focusing on their assigned goal

The haunting broke out

Giving them the realization that they were equally as much of a slave as the pilgrims that they though lowly of

[spark reef]

Makes me wonder if it's because there was a point where they forgot about why they were doing all of this in the first place.

[twin dragon]

Greed

[spark reef]

yup.

[twin dragon]

astronomical greed

[spark reef]

oh yeah. the underworks was a clear proof of that.

[twin dragon]

They made the citadel into the gleaming place that it is

as when the weavers were around, it was bare, carved out of stone

[spark reef]

I mean, paying 15 rosaries just to get a place to sit and rest?

RIP Loam

there was a recent post i saw on youtube where people voted if they wanted to live in Pharloom or Hallownest.

Even though Pharloom has this whole screwed up exploitative system, people still voted Pharloom.

i mean, in some ways, i understand why people would vote for Pharloom, especially if it's after the Haunting and after Hornet saves Lace.

but before?

Heck no.

[twin dragon]

Yeah hallownest in its prime was a lot better

[spark reef]

do you think hornet will return to hallownest?

i mean one of her lines was 'I remain a Daughter of Hallownest.'

So it doesn't look like her allegiances have changed, despite saving Pharloom.

[twin dragon]

Why would she

there's nothing left

[spark reef]

dirtmouth still very much exists.

[twin dragon]

one single little town

She could rebuild pharloom but we don't know that

[spark reef]

same with hallownest.

[twin dragon]

something about the surface background implies she's off to some other place

[spark reef]

what do you mean?

[twin dragon]

After you beat act 3

you get the surface menu background

[spark reef]

oh that. yeah.

but that could be anything.

[timber pond]

Hornet says that if she solves the problem, her travels will very likely take her far from pharloom

To sherma

If you have everbloom and talk to him

[twin dragon]

Fair enough

[timber pond]

As to why she thinks this? My theroy is with the Steel content, primarily because its the last thing team chery really let's you find

If the masters care about ANYONE summoning the void and not just the vassals, then you can see why "her travels will take her far from pharloom"

Sharpe is on her ass

My personal theroy is that In the Next game we play as the Hollow Knight and she inevitably ends up as a side chracter again after you save her from The inner machinations of whatever "The City Of Steels" real name is.

[abstract rivet]

bros cooking hold on

[marble oasis]

They appear outside of the voltvessel room in act 3

[opaque pier]

Gotta introduce her new friend to her foster mom

[spark reef]

sure....Is Vespa still alive?

[opaque pier]

No the other mom, vespas inside my dream nail rn 😋

[hidden crater]

Anything to repopulate your kingdom vro

[opaque pier]

Nah i just needed one essence to dreamgate from the throne room to my workshop even tho i couldve walkes there

[left fog]

Would we survive the lifeblood apocalypse

[hexed kindle]

i still think she will rebuild pharloom tho before that

[spark reef]

...who?

[hexed kindle]

i doubt we will play as the hollow knight

i feel like it makes more sense for us to play as a kinda growstone vessel thing like sharpe

[hexed kindle]

idk

depends

[timber pond]

The problem is ,he is the only Unresolved "main character"

Like i see pepole saying Lace, but her Plot would need to be manufactured again

[hexed kindle]

id rather not have a lace game

[timber pond]

Me niether

[hexed kindle]

true

but what would the gameplay be tho

as hes way bigger

would he get sized down

orr

[opaque pier]

The white lady?

[timber pond]

Mabye. He could get "Compressed" Like Zi Mentions.

Or the world would be bigger

[spark reef]

Oh right. She's still alive too!

[hexed kindle]

maybe

[timber pond]

He would play more likea True "Warrior" i think

IF the Knight is "mage" and Hornet is "rouge"

[spark reef]

I want the third game to be about the Sealed Vessel

[timber pond]

I could totaly see him felling Giant Bugs Shadow of the Colosus style

bashing thier heads like Kratos

[hexed kindle]

he could get kidnapped by the steel city as hes part pale being and void

[timber pond]

The Hollow Knight you mean?

[spark reef]

Yup. THE actual Hollow Knight.

before he was sealed.

[timber pond]

I would think it more a "Debt" if my theory About the Wingsmoulds and sharpe being connected are correct

[left fog]

Pure vessel now?

[timber pond]

Well we are talking about that right now. But after Embrace the void not before

They set him up with a conflict

[hexed kindle]

a prequel game would suck ass

imma be real

[timber pond]

there isnt really much to tell as we already knew his plight

[hexed kindle]

exactly

[timber pond]

thats like, the main mystery of the game one would argue lol

[hexed kindle]

i wanna play as a steel character ngl or some new character

[left fog]

The 3rd would be a new character or someone that we saw in Silksong

[hexed kindle]

i wouldnt mind playing as the vessel but i doubt they would do it

[hexed kindle]

i doubt it will be someone in silksong

[left fog]

Steel kingdom could either the 3rd story or maybe be a hidden kingdom

[timber pond]

I dont know , i feel like that's not very fitting. Team chery have left a conflict open, and it would feel weird not to resolve it. Yet, it feels like its not something that can so easily be resolved in a DLC with all the baggage his chracter contains

[hexed kindle]

steel city has had ALOT of build up so i hope its a game

[left fog]

It sounds like a very much alive kingdom so imagine it would be difficult

[hexed kindle]

we could get a inbetween dlc or flashback sequence of what happened

[spark reef]

Now that I think about it, pure vessel doesn't really have a lot of story potential before or after the game.

[timber pond]

NOt really, it sounds like a Fucking military Complex 😭

[spark reef]

His character's been written into quite the corner.

[left fog]

What gods would the silksong bosses be if they were in pantheon?

[timber pond]

then why did team cherry tease his alive state in embrace the void, the last thing we ever see from the original game? lol

[spark reef]

Are we sure that's him? It could be Ghost in a different form?

[hexed kindle]

we could play as a character of high regard like play as someone part void growstone and something else and they need to hunt as down as we have gone rogue or something

[timber pond]

I dont get this, hes got plenty of potential. resolving his place in the world after he has outlived his purpose is enough to drive an entire story and fits well with what The knight and hornet go through

[hexed kindle]

which could tie into sharpe FINALLY being used

[timber pond]

No its him.

His stature is the same

[left fog]

And the broken nail

[hexed kindle]

and no arm

[left fog]

Who else could come from the black egg

[spark reef]

maybe but there are going to be a lot of loopholes for him to exist. It would contradict what i consider some of the best endings Hollow Knight and Silksong has to offer.

Aka dream no more and sister of the void.

that is, if it's a sequel

[timber pond]

Not very Satisfying still like i said. To resolve a Caracter with the games namesake as a "Ok lol heres what happened" is kind of silly wouldn't you agree?

[hexed kindle]

true

[left fog]

The vessel could be finding themselves in Sheo's hut

Making drawings about hollownest

[hexed kindle]

i guess

i just wanna play as a new character man

[timber pond]

But you cannot argue that team cherry has posed that question, and if they are keen to answer things like The Flower, then they are certainly keen to answer what happens to The Hollow Knight

Like its unaviodable if they continue developing games in this universe

[left fog]

Where was Zemer from?

We may never know

[timber pond]

I also do not Believe "every Ending is cannon" still

[spark reef]

sure, but they have to get VERY creative to somehow explain and bring Hollow Knight back to life.

[hexed kindle]

only 2 are canon

[spark reef]

cause even silksong didn't stray away from what has already been established.

[spark reef]

I would argue only one.

[left fog]

Both involving the death of the radiance

[hexed kindle]

the hollow knight could be just dead for all we know

[hexed kindle]

like dies after he leaves the egg

or something

[timber pond]

All the other shades return to the abyss when they die though? at least im pretty sure. except Lost kin

[timber pond]

Would team chery really Do that though? lol

[spark reef]

If Ghost can exist in the abyss in shade form, i don't see why the hollow knight wouldn't also be there.

[timber pond]

"oh hes alive guys!" "nah just kidding he dies"

[hexed kindle]

i never said he cant exist in shade form

[left fog]

Is it possible charms are something void like beings used?

[hexed kindle]

id rather just have a new character for the 3rd game

[timber pond]

But they did not show him and VOid Given focuses powers are used by the knight. Unless he Just had That power from the moment he gets void heart i dont see how DNM is more cannon over ETV.

[left fog]

Same

[hexed kindle]

was the hollow knight present in the sister of the void ending

[left fog]

No

[timber pond]

Regardless, it is still unresolved. so even if its a new chracter, team chery would need to resolve a main Chracter not having an "out". They could ahve easily not have the hollow knight Live in ETV. but they did, so now we must ask for what? and i simply think the only answer is he gets his own journey of discovery.

[hexed kindle]

hmmmm

[spark reef]

Keep in mind that in both endings, ghost has become part of the void. There's no reason why he wouldn't acquire the focused form in DNM after he has become part of the void.

[hexed kindle]

imma guess and assume hes not dead

as if he was

his shade WOULD show up

[heavy gyro]

It needs godseeker attunement to become void given focus

[left fog]

We also see the knight in his Shade lord in a flash

[hexed kindle]

specfically bigger than other shades aswell

[timber pond]

That is an Assumption we dont really have the answer to. We do not know if him returning to the void grants the Focused state, it has not been observed.

[hexed kindle]

also true

[spark reef]

What do you mean 'they did not show him'? He literally saves Hornet from the Abyss.

[left fog]

And only the godseeker ending has him in shade lord

[spark reef]

Yes, but is it out of the question?

[hexed kindle]

yh

[timber pond]

The Hollow Knight is not in the abyss with little Ghost is what i mean. Little Ghost saves hornet

[spark reef]

Why wouldn't he be?

[hexed kindle]

cus he might not be dead

[left fog]

Has thr Pure vessel ever interacted with hornet?

[hexed kindle]

doubt it

[timber pond]

Why Wouldnt the Hollow knight be in the abysss? because hes not there with the Entire collective of shades?

[timber pond]

We dont know

[spark reef]

In DNM, the Sealed Vessel aka the Hollow Knight opens Radiance's face.

[timber pond]

Yes

In Sister of the Void, that shade is not there with little ghost

[hexed kindle]

yeah

but im pretty sure etv is more cannon

[left fog]

But in godseeker he lives leaving the egg free of the infection

Etv is the only where ghost becomes the Shade lord

[hexed kindle]

DNM: dead or with the shades im guessing ETV: alive??

[left fog]

In truth Team cherry showed both as the possible endings

[hexed kindle]

yh

[timber pond]

They Could have easily left him dead, but team chery WANT to do something with him.

[left fog]

Which one? thats for us to decide

[heavy gyro]

Yeah it was intentionally left ambiguous

[spark reef]

I think he's there. It would be odd as to why he wouldn't show up but I still think he is there along with the shades.

[hexed kindle]

hes dead in DNM

but not ETV

[left fog]

Thats the fun of the mystery

Not knowing

[timber pond]

They would have shown us. HEs very much more Distinct than the other shades as hes the only one that's massive.

[timber pond]

Yeah but im saying Team cherry didnt even need to make ETV like that. They could ahve had him die in that ending and i dont see why they would let him live if they were just like " Hey wasant that weird? lol anyway we will never mention it again"

[left fog]

In the end there is no conclusion on which it is

[spark reef]

From a lore perspective, yes. But giving Ghost the spotlight as opposed to the Sealed Vessel is a much more rewarding experience. So i would not blame them if they didn't bother to put the Hollow Knight in there.

Besides, Hornet is familiar with Ghost more than she is with the Hollow Knight.

and Ghost is the one who gets to defeat Radiance

[left fog]

Its possible the Hollow Knight stayed in Hollownest

[left fog]

Or Absolute Radiance

[timber pond]

This is team chery you are talking about though. The guys who make every fucking detail of thier worlds serve a function. They acknowledge The Hollow Knights importance, its not something they would just "Sweep under the rug".

[spark reef]

bro, it's been 8 years since their last game?

[left fog]

Definitely might be mentioned again in a dlc or in a future game

[timber pond]

I could say that about the "All endings are cannon" reddit AMA coment too

[left fog]

I only believe 2 are canon

[timber pond]

The importance of the question "What happens to the hollow knight" feels to big to Be DLC imo

[left fog]

The world is big

[spark reef]

All I am saying is it's not that far of a stretch for them to not include the actual Hollow Knight in Sister of the Void ending.

[left fog]

While hollow knight might importance in hollownest

[spark reef]

because they might have not thought about it.

[timber pond]

? iM talking about the metephorical question

[left fog]

In other places that name has no meaning

[timber pond]

Im talking about what is presented to the player ,not in world

[left fog]

And what does mentioning the hollow knight serve?

[timber pond]

Doubt it. They actively Remember everything else about every other ending for this game lol.

[left fog]

Who the hell would know of the hollow knight in Pharloom?

Besides Hornet

[timber pond]

I dont know thats the problem. Team chery Posed that Question in Embrace The Void.

So its just a big "Gap" in our heads as to why they did that

with a Crescendo to call to action no less

[timber pond]

Again, Im not talking about how character's understand each other in game. im asking it as a question Posed to the player via the ending existing at all.

Like as a chracter, team chery want to clearly, do more with The Hollow Knight.

[spark reef]

Again, big head scratcher if the Hollow Knight is alive in ETV and Silksong is following up after ETV.

cause it strongly implies that HK is now probably alive in Void form.

Cause it's not confirmed that it's the Pure Vessel that gets back to his body, right?

[timber pond]

He is clearly Like, standing in front of hornet In a physical form

You cant tell me its some Aparition lol

[spark reef]

Again, considering that we are dealing with souls.

There's a very good chance that someone is piloting his body

which need not be the pure vessel

[timber pond]

??? are you implying That Little Ghost is puppeting The Hollow Knight

[spark reef]

Yes

I mean, he literally became a focused form of the void

[timber pond]

They have thier indaviduality , even as seen in Dream No more

That dosent mean anything.

[spark reef]

individuality in the realm of the void.

[timber pond]

The vessels are not soley void while they are alive

They have Soul within them and the Shell maintains ther "personality"

As mask maker explains

[heavy gyro]

Even as the shade lord, the knight doesn't control all of the void

[timber pond]

The mask thats on the vessles from thier birth keeps them individual

[spark reef]

So, what's to say that Little Ghost who has now become the monstrous looking shade form cannot occupy Hollow Knight's shell to break through?

[timber pond]

IF they die, sure mabye they defult to the Highest "will"

[heavy gyro]

Yeah they can't because THK is not part of void given focus

[timber pond]

Because while they are alive they mantain some indaviduality. youa re also making alot of assumptions on what that power actually does, when we dont even know

[spark reef]

cause, compared to DNM, ETV defines void as doing what essentially happens in Act 3 of silksong.

[timber pond]

Sure, But it can be negated with a strong enough will lol

Like if shakra can stay sane

Then Pure vessel can as well

[spark reef]

i mean, yeah. But given how little we have to work with, i am going for a very particular narrative approach.

hence, the assumptions.

[timber pond]

Seems like doing backflips to justify The hollow Knight not coming back when clearly thats what team chery set up Definitvely lol

[spark reef]

That's true, if we are assuming that Hollow Knight is still in there.

after years of being strapped down

[timber pond]

If Dream no more is to go by then yes, he clearly is

Idk thiss feels like Doing some mental Gymnastics to justify against what is clearly laid out lol

[hexed kindle]

The hollow knight could just be chilling idk

[spark reef]

but don't you think having ETV as a canon ending would leave a massive plothole?

[timber pond]

He could have just been chilling in the void as well if they let him die and had him Show up in Sister of the void. But again, we go back to the "why pose the question at all?' question

[spark reef]

Like, hey, your brother just killed Absolute Radiance, and hence i am now back. But the void is now loose and there's a chance it could break through me and the ones who are already infected.

So we have to put a stop to it.

I imagine that's how it would go.

[timber pond]

Assuming Void given focus dosent just immideately return to the void, Like the shades do in Dream no more after the radiance dies lol

[spark reef]

Cause in my opinion, with ETV, we would need an entire game just to fill out the blanks between the first game and silksong

[heavy gyro]

We see what happens after etv

The knight goes back to godhome

[timber pond]

No? The Third game could jsut start with the hollow knight Captured deep within the city of steel, being experimented on and then Getting freed by some comotion and falling down

They dont really "need" to explain it

they simply have the justifcation of "yeah we let THK live that one time, so we can make a game with him"

[spark reef]

ok. this is a cool idea.

but then, yes, that would narrow the ending down to ETV.

[hexed kindle]

what if they put his shade into another growstone shell/mould

[timber pond]

Like sure, there CAN be some sugestion to what happened to him. But team cherry have plenty of ways to work around that

[hexed kindle]

that could be cool

[timber pond]

Idk how that would work to be honest.

[hexed kindle]

and have a reason for him to have a diff moveset

[spark reef]

Absolutely not.

I want to play as how we see him in the first game.

Minus the infection

[timber pond]

I think they CAN make him work, They clearly have the dedication to make Bazzilion hornet sprites, so complexity isnt too much of the issue

[spark reef]

???when?

[timber pond]

They Can make the world Be quite big too, But it would work Mightily different.

[heavy gyro]

Godseeker mode takes place after etv

[timber pond]

Gameply wise i mean

[heavy gyro]

Which is weird but it is what it is

[spark reef]

oh!!

right.

[timber pond]

Are you just saying that because you unlock it after? or what

[spark reef]

i forgot there's a third mode.

[heavy gyro]

The godseeker refers to the knight as the "god of gods"

In godseeker mode

[timber pond]

IS the Diolouge diffrent besides that?

I feel like its just extrea flavor idk

[heavy gyro]

Yeah she wonders why the knight decided to return or something like that

[timber pond]

Perhaps godseeker is stuck in a perpetual dream loop after she gets consumed idk. that one is impossible to explain.

[random harbor]

Godseeker - Godseeker Mode - First Entry

Most holy! Most divine! O God of Gods! Thou return to test thineself upon the lowly, snivelling weaklings serving beneath thee.
Permit Us then to bow and scrape as bugs impotent before thy glory. We wouldst give Our all to witness again but a moment of thine terrible might!

@theplasma used /npcs quest name: Godseeker category: Godseeker Mode dialogue: First Entry

[spark reef]

this is spooky

how....

godseeker

How did this show up?

also, i had no idea about godseeker mode until i saw relyea's video.

and that was just a few weeks ago

[timber pond]

Reading it, its possible these are the last thoughts the Godseeker has before its consumed. except for the first one

Gods. O Gods! Thy nature, mysterious. Uncanny. Even so for We who seek!
By attuning Ourselves We clutch at their greatness, their immortality. Their unknowable splendour.
Hallownest. This kingdom is blessed with true Gods. True! All around, the corpses of pretender Gods. But! Not in Hallownest...

4th pantheon Diolouge in the real world

"All around, the corpses of pretender Gods. But! Not in Hallownest..."

So every other kingdom is a phony ? lol

acording to this whacko at least....

[spark reef]

i mean, there are a lot of nutjobs in both games.

@timber pond fanatics would be another word

is it that hard to believe?

i mean, you've seen how widow was behaving.

[half zenith]

Speculation: What if I’ve accidentally predicted either a DLC bad ending, or a sequel knife twist

I was just playing with fun what-ifs when I came up with plasmified Hornet…

But it occurred to me that this may very well be a possible bad ending outcome of a lifeblood-related DLC, if lifeblood gets expanded upon

Or further in the future, if lifeblood is the conflict driver of a sequel to HK, Hornet may get her turn in the suffering bossfight wheel

[spark reef]

Isn't that already present in game?

Oh. Are you talking about hornet becoming like the Alchemist?

[half zenith]

Yeah

Getting completely overtaken by lifeblood

[spark reef]

that's a nightmare for sure.

Similar to the Twisted Child ending.

[half zenith]

Yeahhhhhh

Honestly Hornet’s real lucky the twisted bud is not the mind-altering sort of parasitoid or she might not have gotten a chance to prevent a worse outcome

Goodness knows the insect world has too many of those horrors already

[spark reef]

If there's a different ending coming, for Lifeblood, i want to see something different other than Hornet becoming like Zytolol.

maybe she goes ultra instinct.

[idle rain]

I AM NOT TRYING TO BE RACIST BUT.... why is lost lace way more agressive when she turned black

its not racism

its just a question

[heavy walrus]

every void enemy is more aggressive so

[idle rain]

yeah i know its just strange

[shell oracle]

I have an idea so there are 2 main ways to reach citadel with they are
Last judge route: moss grotto to marrow to deep docks to far fields to greymoor to shellwood to blasted steps to citadel
And the phantom route:
Moss grotto to marrow to deep docks to far fields to greymoor to sinner's road to mist to exhaust organ to phantom
So my idea is
The last judge route is for the sinless and the phantom route is for the sin with because the area before the mist is litterally called sinner's road

[idle rain]

yes thats why it also got the name of sinners road

cause to many people with sins would go that road to not meet with the judges

well bugs not people but you get what i mean

[exotic vortex]

Where are garmond and zaza from if its comfirmed

[vestal swan]

An outskirts village we don't get to visit

[stray fog]

Maybe their village is not in the x-y plane

[vestal swan]

4+ unvisited villages are already talked about in-game and some of these could technically overlap with each other/cut or unused villages.
Pilgrim starter village
Shakras village
Xylotols village
Garmonds village
Forgehome
Bay village?

[stray fog]

Yeah where do the pilgrims even start from

[vestal swan]

[stray fog]

Where is the proper entry to pharloom

[vestal swan]

We see two kind of entrances, only one looks like it's made for travelers to come through and then there's another spot where you can see the wastes on the right side

What's it called

Uh

[dapper willow]

I think there are many different pilgrim vilages scattered around the outskirts

[stray fog]

Going directly to the blasted steps shouldn't be "allowed"

[vestal swan]

Steps -> shellwood -> bellhart
Kind of the main entrance
Abandoned village up top leads straight down into the citadel
And through the very far edge of far fields by that weavnest you can see out into the wastes

[vestal swan]

Hornet broke the bridge but that was the main entrance

[unique canopy]

Pilgrims legitimately seem like they come from the Z-axis, because Bone Bottom seems like the main place they start at, but there's no way to actually get there unless you fall from the Blasted Sands-Shellwood path like Hornet at the start.

[hidden crater]

dont we also see a group of pilgrims in the strung to serve ending

[stray fog]

But the blasted steps are directly connected to the citadel so that skips the whole climb

[vestal swan]

Well we know there's unexplored villages so there could just be one or multiple villages where pilgrims are living technically outside the influence and then decide to start to do the pilgrimage, it doesn't have to be exclusively z-axis but yeah most likely

[stray fog]

But that place looks like every other place in the wastes

[vestal swan]

Yeah but pilgrims don't get to use the elevators and skip, then it wouldn't be a pilgrimage

[dapper willow]

I think some of the pilgrims come from the wormways
There is that room that has the flying pilgrims

[hidden crater]

this game left us with even more questions than answers

[vestal swan]

They were just going to take hornet up that way as a prisoner

[vestal swan]

Those guys are just on the pilgrimage and lost

[dense aspen]

The biggest thing that annoys me is when people only view a charater from a narrow pov they got from a reddit post

[dapper willow]

I don't think everyone goes the Bone bottom-> marrow -> deep docks -> far fields -> greymoor -> bellheart -> shellwood -> blasted steps route

[vestal swan]

They are starting in bone bottom tho, that's where the pilgrimage starts

[dapper willow]

Thats why i put that at the start

[unique canopy]

Enough people go through Far Fields and Greymoor at least that Pilgrim's Rest and Halfway Home are able to exist to serve travelling pilgrims. Not to mention Bellhart.

[vestal swan]

I mean it's not like there's a secret path straight up the middle

We know the general route of the programage

[dapper willow]

Bellheart is a nice place to stop for a bit either way

pharloom is severely lacking in agriculture though
The damn citadelites converted all of it into dreg catching

[vestal swan]

I wonder if it was intended to be a give up and settle down point

Be kind of funny if the pacifist route had an option to just stay and live there forever

[unique canopy]

Hermit says Bellhart was built by pilgrims who gave up, so maybe.

But that's also the hermit so who knows if that's reliable or just him being grumpy.

[vestal swan]

Well he is old as shit so possibly knowledgeable, but he is also an asshole

But I meant more like a trap by the citadel, "yes give up don't come and live luxury with us stay down there where it's easier"

[unique canopy]

Maybe after the Conductors took over as a kind of filter, especially after they started with the silk experiments. But earlier than that my impression is they wanted as many voices as possible to keep GMS asleep

[dapper willow]

Well
Its still nice to see the pilgrims being more than just traveling endlessly
It makes sense that some would give up and settle down at some places

[fossil ledge]

Given how Bellhart is right before the safe Shellwood and then the Blasted Steps, it's possible the pilgrims settled there cause it was directly connected to the Citadel by way of the bellvein while not needing to take the risk of crossing the Blasted Steps and being slain by the judges there

[hushed viper]

In contrast, realistically Pale King shouldn't stand a chance in Pharloom cuz his big thing is that they gave bugs of hallownest sentience which doesnt work in Pharloom as they already have sentience

[stray fog]

Wdym "stand a chance"

Why would she dke

[hushed viper]

like actually try and take control of pharloom or hallownest

[stray fog]

Oh

Hallownest bugs don't have silk

So no

Maybe she can do it through sheer strength

[heavy gyro]

Most of the hallownest bugs are dead so there's basically no kingdom to take over

[hushed viper]

prime hallownest?

[unique canopy]

A big thing that set PK apart from other higher beings is he was not above relying on diplomacy if it served him instead of just trying to conquer everything, even with tribes that didn't have their own higher beings. I can see him playing nice with Nyleth and Karmelita as long as his followers had safe passage through their lands.

[stray fog]

The pale king was goated (apart from him killing a million babies)

Can't a man have hobbies

[unique canopy]

GMS in prime Hallownest would depend entirely on whether she wants to just keep to herself. Hilariously, if she's there then there's no need for the Weavers to be in Deepnest so she'd have that place all to herself. Might be able to conquer the Mantis Tribe, but she'd be bracketed into her own corner by the others. And then the Infection wrecks everything, including her own followers.

[shell oracle]

I have an idea so there are 2 main ways to reach citadel with they are
Last judge route: moss grotto to marrow to deep docks to far fields to greymoor to shellwood to blasted steps to citadel
And the phantom route:
Moss grotto to marrow to deep docks to far fields to greymoor to sinner's road to mist to exhaust organ to phantom
So my idea is
The last judge route is for the sinless and the phantom route is for the sin with because the area before the mist is litterally called sinner's road

[mighty swallow]

...ya

[spark valve]

phantom isn't a route to the citadel that's not what sinner's road is built to lead to, hornet just finds it incidentally by breaking walls

[edgy nebula]

sinners road into bilewater seems more accurate, since we see many pilgrims strewn up and killed in the ceiling bags

[quartz plinth]

Does herrah qualify as a canon Bbw?

[echo moon]

are the two so detrimentally different though?

thought she was just naked in HK

[dry bridge]

I'm of the mind that bonebottom is more of a ravine than a sinkhole and there's probably other caves that lead into it along the Z axis,, yeah.

[humble peak]

maybe she started stress eating before being put to sleep

or fuck maybe hornet just doesn't remember very well idk

i forgive you

[hushed viper]

Ok about father flame
Father Flame is a REAL god right?
Even then, if it was a real god did it exist before and were found and worshipped by the burning bugs or did their collective belief brought it into existence?

[near sand]

it could be that since hornets memory of herrah is fuzzy what we see is kind of a mix between normal weavers and what little hornet remembers of her

idk shes weird

[humble peak]

tbh i wouldn't be surprised if more deepnest lore is something we get for dlc

[hushed viper]

Speaking of Deepnest
Hallownest described it as a kingdom of beasts, the weavers and the conductors (or 1 in particlar ig) of pharloom described GMS as a beast, they really dont stray far from their parent wow

[pale narwhal]

hes a statue
is he even alive really?

[lilac hedge]

No just a lot lot of flames put up like some scare crow

If you think flames have concious ess then yes

[pale narwhal]

the wisps seem to
Father of Flames core might be some sort of Ultra wisp but i doubt it's a higher being

[mint stratus]

Theory:
the weavers of deepnest are nested so close to the mask maker because their want for daughters led them to a crafter of masks to give spiders higher thought and self as surrogate children

It would explain why there are so many despite the difficulty weavers have bearing children, as well as why they weren’t considered by the citadel as important

Perhaps due to their lack of connection to gms they aren’t able to utilize silk (beyond normal spider silk oc)

Yeah I meant the little guys :)

Makes me wonder what midwives actual job in the making and caring of these surrogate children actually entailed

Their lack of connection to higher beings might’ve also made them more susceptible to the infection

The only deepnest species I’m personally aware of with any mind are the native spider tribe, assuming their intelligence is born of masks instead of naturally, I could see midwife and them perhaps gifting their offspring with masks and the weavers adopting this practice

Of course this is way more speculative in my opinion

Is it known if stalking devouts are of the original native spiders?

[humble peak]

We know nothing

[ornate pier]

They look like deephunters so I'd say so

[young dune]

what do we know about the surface

[vestal swan]

Masks don't raise bugs like the beacon

[vestal swan]

Sand everywhere, few scattered villages, it's still underground

[mint stratus]

Have you not seen maskmakers dialogue?

[vestal swan]

It's not literal

[ornate pier]

Where does it being still underground come from

[humble peak]

why do you say this?

[vestal swan]

Because it doesn't do that? Masks can change personalities but they can't turn a little dumb bug into a big bug and raise the intelligence

[young dune]

why is it called the surface then

[edgy nebula]

father of the flame is made as an offering to a god, it isnt anything real

[vestal swan]

We see Mr mushroom fly off into the distance twice and there's nothing in the "sky" along with an old comment from Leth(?) saying it's all underground.
And while it is cut and behind the scenes content, we know that they changed terminology and remove words to make the setting fit, and they intentionally avoided things like moon sun stars etc

[vestal swan]

It's more like they were trying to make one with sacrifices

And it is real, it's just not the god that they wanted

[edgy nebula]

possibly

i think in general the burning bugs are a play on like, doomsday suicide cults

[vestal swan]

Except in this universe worshiping something and making sacrifices to it can actually empower it

[edgy nebula]

yeah

but with the themes of religion in sk it makes alot of sense to me personally

[mint stratus]

To exist seems much more substantial than a personality change

[humble peak]

What do you make these claims based on? We know next to nothing about masks, whether what they can do or what they can't.

[vestal swan]

That's not literal, plenty of characters exist without masks by the way

[vestal swan]

Because we have no examples of this and pretty much everything he says is metaphorical? You need to prove it actually happens first

[mint stratus]

All they say in my opinion seems pretty literal? They make masks for the purpose of giving bugs without a face one to define and focus and exist

It may seem poetic or metaphorical but masks have power, as does the ability to focus in the world of hollowknight

[vestal swan]

Regular masks don't really have that power, there's no examples of this. Swapping personalities is all they're shown to do

[pale narwhal]

i mean
||Karmelita|| doesnt seem to have a mask
same for Salubra, Sly, Leg Eater, Jubilana, Pebb, Plinney, any of the fleas

[humble peak]

Did you just spoiler tag Karmelita lmao

[mint stratus]

Some are born with a face- a self
Others are not so lucky

[grand star]

why did hornet murder him

[humble peak]

who?

[grand star]

green prince

[humble peak]

homophobic

[mint stratus]

Mercy kill, but also challenging her to a battle to the death

[grand star]

masks seem to just be a cultural thing that's assigned great significance

like clothing

[mint stratus]

From the dialogue and the way masks are described, I highly doubt they didn’t have a purpose

For in game example, pieces of ancient masks can be put together to add to hornets overall health

As well as the fractured mask

[trail wagon]

doesn't the Mask change how Brumm looks?

[trail wagon]

Why is it called the SURFACE memento?

[trail wagon]

wha 😭🥀

[humble peak]

nymm is definitely a lot smaller

[trail wagon]

Green Prince is actually purple it's just figurative

[trail wagon]

Honestly I'm really not sure it's the same person, some people suggest it, but I don't know

[humble peak]

bro?

[trail wagon]

wha

[vestal swan]

That's not a mask maker mask

[trail wagon]

i know

[humble peak]

i need to get out of here dude

[grand star]

his clothes

[trail wagon]

I don't think it reaaaally matters, the principle of how masks work is probably the same regardless

[vestal swan]

It does matter, ones made by a god

[cedar skiff]

close enough welcome back mask maker made the dreamers masks crack theory

[mint stratus]

https://mossbag69.blogspot.com/2019/07/lets-overanalyize-mask-maker-script.html?m=1

[vestal swan]

I'm not reading that

[mint stratus]

Irrespective of our disagreement I must ask that all appreciate the name of the link

[vestal swan]

No

[mint stratus]

My guy it’s the lore discussion channel

[vestal swan]

Giving me somebody else's opinion is not going to convince me, I want evidence that it does what you think it does

[mint stratus]

Your need for visual in game proof irrespective of dialogue is frustrating, half of hollow knight lore is what is said in the dialogue

[olive quartz]

evidence that masks do what exactly?

[mint stratus]

Give sentience

[olive quartz]

To change a face; to conceal it fully within another... A powerful protection that is, but one with sad consequence.

The original mind is destroyed, though those of striking will may still retain a sliver of that concealed self.

To exist, a face is needed. It is the essential thing.

'give sentience' is hard to prove specifically but masks as a rule have mental effects

[vestal swan]

Yes they can swap personalities, that's about all the regular masks are shown to do

[olive quartz]

i mean to have a personality implies to have personhood and intelligence

[vestal swan]

They aren't out here raising bugs to the intelligence level of the citizens

[mint stratus]

I will concede that those with a face have their personality and perhaps bodies changed, I am personally speaking of the dialogue about supposed ‘faceless’

[olive quartz]

given the mask makers make a lot of masks that leads me to believe that the faceless are likewise very numerous. as in, vermin

[olive quartz]

what do the masks do, then, that makes the mask makers' duty so important?

A delivery deadly, dangerous, fiercably cold, for old bug up there that does need it much-much! Serves us all he does, so we serve back.

even tipp & pill know of the mask maker and his important duty

All deserve a face. A chance to be! Until I wither, for the faceless I shall provide.

[olive quartz]

Pharloom's fresh faces will welcome its sheen.

this line suggests that the recipients of masks are all sapient after the fact

whether they were necessarily sapient before is under question, but i mean. the symbolism of 'faceless' is highly suggestive

[vestal swan]

No it doesn't? It suggests that there is a customer base who want masks

[olive quartz]

...why would a non-sapient bug want a mask, or be considered a 'customer'

[vestal swan]

To change who they are

[olive quartz]

non sapient

sapient as in personhood. the mossgrubs aren't sapient, hornet is

[vestal swan]

A nonsapient bug is not going to become sapient by putting on a mask

[olive quartz]

the mask maker's dialogue gives credence to the idea that it would

[olive quartz]

'A chance to be!'

i assume you agree that the 'be' is not literal physical existence—we see many bugs existing without masks—and thus means existing in some spiritual sense. as in, personhood, sapience

[silent widget]

idk if this is the right channel to ask but
is the radiance ending canon to ss?

[spark valve]

all the endings that involve radiance dying are compatible with it

[olive quartz]

i assume you mean the ending where you beat the normal radiance and not absrad?

[silent widget]

yea

[olive quartz]

frankly, both of those endings are equally valid, but yes sister of the void implies that one of them must have happened for the knight to become a shade and gain power over the void

although you could argue that a different slate of endings are canon to, say, the weaver queen ending. hornet getting weaver queen gives us no information about the status of the knight, it could be sealed in the black egg for all we know

team cherry has a thing for not making any specific ending canon

[mint stratus]

I’m somehow more curious about if the everbloom ending in hollowknight is a type of evisceration of the shade lord, or if it is more akin of a type of teleportation, returning it to the abyss

[vestal swan]

We still don't know

Stupid flower is inconsistent

[foggy fractal]

trust the process the dlcs WILL answer the everbloom questions

[limpid summit]

Masks are almost entirely metaphorical as MM frames them and even the masks that work literally don’t actually work as he says

“All deserve a face! A chance to be!” If masks are literally faces and metaphorically identities he is talking about sapience here in general

[cedar skiff]

mask placebo effect theory

[limpid summit]

Probably not literally giving bugs masks

[unique canopy]

Should be noted that dialogue is when the Mask Maker himself is masked, and by Hornet's description not lucid

[cedar skiff]

there are masks that serve different purposes i feel like thats sort of relevant

[upper copper]

Yk how first sinner’s signature ability is rune rage, widow’s is needolin, karn’s is sharpdart, and so on? I think hornet’s signature ability would be cross stitch

[unique canopy]

Yeah probably, that is the only one she doesn't need to bind to relearn, she just needs to remember it in her Phantom battle

[cedar skiff]

i mean we see thread storm in hollow knight

[blissful harbor]

feel like hers would be the clawline i’m ngl

[quiet narwhal]

cross stich isnt really anything like her parry in hollow knight

[sinful nimbus]

All her techniques are stolen

[steep ridge]

cross stitch is phantom's ability

it's stated in the ability description

[upper copper]

She took that tech from a weaver

[upper copper]

Oh, but she did not directly take it from phantom though, she was only observing

[steep ridge]

yeah that's typically how people learn new things

[unique canopy]

It is different from Hornet's own parry in HK, however it is the only silk skill you get that you don't need to bind to get. She's relearning it on her own by fighting with Phantom and applying it to her own parry herself.

Maybe her own signature skill would be her own parry instead of specifically cross-stitch, but of the ones in Silksong it's the closest.

[silk dirge]

cross stitch is way cooler than her hk parry

[wise sand]

😭 the rune cage lobotomized her so bad

[cedar skiff]

it makes me sad second sentinel actually saw the other ones as their siblings

[foggy fractal]

speaking of the parry
we did see a version that's closer to the one she uses as a boss in hk in the 2019 trailer iirc

[silk dirge]

yeah she parried second sentinel with it

[foggy fractal]

second sentinel also sounded very different
probably wasn't a robot back then

[silk dirge]

im glad we got cross stitch bc that forward lunge did not have aura

[frosty beacon]

chat, question

is the moss from moss grotto different moss than the moss in greenpath?

[dawn sluice]

probably
one is godmoss and the other is just some random moss that existed

[frosty beacon]

weird because like i'm thinking

did unn just create moss in general or

[sinful nimbus]

now imagine that but it uses silk

It attaches a strand of silk to the enemy that you could use to pull yourself towards or something idk

MHRise lance has that actually its fun af

[sinful nimbus]

It looks pretty different

[craggy smelt]

primal source of all moss?
probably not

[silk dirge]

so like cross stich + clawline?

that sounds interesting