sk-lore

[fathom hill]

where's the statues, where's the idols

Where's everything that every other higher (and non higher) being has, except gms

[hexed kindle]

Don't say the citadels crescent emblem as thats a cocoon of her sealing

[unique canopy]

Devil's advocate but: Radiance only had one single statue left and only because it was missed

[hexed kindle]

If you say that shit i will genuinely just

[fathom hill]

ah yeah but tbf we also have Seer

[olive quartz]

also for the record kind of yes. this generation of pilgrims was probably taught by their parents that the citadel was holy, and their parents were taught that by their parents, and so on. a big part of what convinces people to go on a pilgrimage is that everyone else in their community has also gone on the pilgrimage, or is likewise expected to go, not because god personally reached down and said you, me, gas station

[fathom hill]

Which is the one to infodump us of the whole radiance faith thing

Or worship

[lime osprey]

You just kinda gotta believe bro

[limpid summit]

The fact is that the Citadel alone and the history of worship is what sustains itself

It’s why people in organized religion don’t need their gods to specifically come down and say “go to church”

[stoic moth]

wasn't it the case that all the radiance statues were destroyed in an attempt to stop/slow the infection, and PK was chill to let them hang around before that? or am i tripping

[limpid summit]

GMS doesn’t exert influence on normal bugs besides the Haunting

[lime osprey]

I've made my case for why it is likely bugs worshipped or revered whatever they thought GMS was prior to the citadel

[fathom hill]

https://tenor.com/view/wrizz-monkey-monkey-sigma-gif-14012962261800188400

[lime osprey]

I just do not believe this man

[olive quartz]

or at the very least is overwhelmingly what draws in the pilgrims. like we can't prove there isn't divine influence, although the game tends to suggest otherwise, but it's safest to say that the gms beacon theory simply runs afoul of occam's razor

[fathom hill]

I'll just leave it at that then

[limpid summit]

Until you provide genuine evidence this remains the basic thing that the game shows us

[olive quartz]

also question why aren't the ants making a pilgrimage

[lime osprey]

Here's your evidence bro "Your kingdom is in the thrall of a creature beyond bug, one of that higher caste"

[olive quartz]

aren't they similarly influenced by GMS, drawn to her

[unique canopy]

There is no evidence that GMS herself was ever directly venerated, however the concept of the Weavers being her divine children did come directly from her (we know this from First Sinner) and the Weavers leveraged that into having the pilgrims worship them until they decided to fuck off, so it wouldn't make sense that they could just show up to random bugs and go "hey we're divine, worship us" without the same level of power GMS has. PK could do that because he had that power to uplift bugs and do other divine things himself.
But that's also an assumption and not hard evidence.

[hexed kindle]

I'll give a scenario
Pilgrim 1: hey this citadel place is pretty cool
Pilgrim 2: really?
Pilgrim 3: citadel what's that?
Pilgrim 1:( explains citadel)
Years later
Pilgrims 283772: Let's go to the citadel
Pilgrim 73367373: YEAH
Pilgrim 3837: hell yeah

[lime osprey]

they simply do not believe

[fathom hill]

what happened to the magical worship aura thing

[hexed kindle]

Ik this is a shit scenario

[lime osprey]

But the real answer is that Karmelita sustains their union through ritual song as well, or at least, has led her tribe against that "pale light' or whatever

[olive quartz]

oh, like hornet, who does not comprehend why else the pilgrims would be drawn to the citadel other than by divine call and simply assumes the kingdom is in the thrall of said higher being because that's all she knows?

[fathom hill]

that's a good point actually, same with the craws

[limpid summit]

I think the citadel is entirely less compelling as a story if its fervor was not the subject of repeated history and cultural upbringing but rather wow spooky HB magic it feels very unthematic as a story of an out of hand organized religion (on top of being unsubstantiated)

[lime osprey]

i've said like a million messages before that bugs can just choose not to follow it

[fathom hill]

All of them are haunted no? why arent they going to the citadel

non haunted pilgrims are the ones to go to the citadel btw

aksjhdf

[hexed kindle]

They've been around for longer also they have more trust for karmelita also karmelitas song

[lime osprey]

Is this supposed to prove me wrong?

[lime osprey]

Karmelita also just hates pale beings so she likely warned them against her

[fathom hill]

It's a follow up to my ants and craws message

[hexed kindle]

Thats another 1

[limpid summit]

Hornet doesn’t really understand the pilgrimage she looks at it in awe
She has walked among gods and beings with influence for so long that the thought of something built up not directly on the backs of higher beings but on the cultural founding of regular bugs seems alien to her. This is why when she sees one symptom of HB mania she assigns all aspects of Pharloom to GMS.

[hexed kindle]

Craws probably have tribe they like they also seem more primative

[olive quartz]

this is entirely incorrect, the ants are fully haunted and only believe they are following karmelita. one of the ants has needolin dialogue like "is this still her song?" karmelita used to sustain the ants against the haunting, as we see during the karmelita fight (none of the ants there are haunted) but that is well in the past, karmelita is old now and can no longer sing, so her tribe has fallen to the haunting

[dawn sluice]

speaking of haunting
what the heck is with the craws
they are haunted and yet still retain enough intelligence and restraint to not only not stab hornet while they’re at a bench, but write down their summons to bring them to the court of craws

[limpid summit]

Confusing

The court of craws may not be haunted while the wider craw population is

[fathom hill]

The dialogue of them asking if they even hear karmelitas song anymore is so haunting i love it

For lack of a better word ig

[dawn sluice]

they seemed to have the strings when i played the needolin

[limpid summit]

I don’t think they do

[olive quartz]

tbf the haunted citadel bugs can still write things down, above bone bottom is a choral commandment to go capture hornet which was clearly written post haunting

[limpid summit]

Just as the mottled skarr subvert the haunting through a need to develop individuality, the court’s blind desire for justice drives its actions past haunting

[hexed kindle]

Some craws or most i think are immune and are just cunts which is why the attack us and aggressive

[fathom hill]

they have a jurisdiction system tbf, may be a mantis kind of situation where they just express differently

Different cultures and allat

[limpid summit]

Threads aren’t coded to appear in Act 3 but Craw Jurors of any kind are unable to be voided

[hexed kindle]

This aswell

[limpid summit]

So they aren’t haunted

[olive quartz]

for the record all haunted strings disappear come act 3, because uh GMS ain't up there no more, and the court of craws only show up in act 3 so it's hard to prove they aren't haunted

[lime osprey]

oh, I wasn't aware this wa sin reference to the current Skarr tribe. Well i mean idk, its GMS controlling them so i really dont know. The haunting is weird and bugs maintain a weird amount of intellegence, even enough to read, while suffering it. The bizarre, inconsistent nature of the haunting shouldn't be used against my interpretation as it could discount every other one as well

[limpid summit]

The haunting is GMS allowing bugs to continue their work as they are, simply under her, in her web

[dawn sluice]

so a lot less controlling radiance

[lime osprey]

their work is literally keeping her asleep so i'm kinda doubting that

[limpid summit]

No it isn’t

[lime osprey]

oh alright

[fathom hill]

I think we did talk abt this before

[limpid summit]

The citadel fell silent pre haunting the haunted citadel bugs aren’t singing her chains anymore

They’re just making music

[fathom hill]

Abt why does the cogwork still function even if the robots now seem to be under her

[olive quartz]

they don't know that though. all your average citadel bug knows is that they are worshipping the citadel itself through holy song

[lime osprey]

then they aren't doing their work

[fathom hill]

But we didn't settle in if the robots are indeed haunted or not

[hexed kindle]

Silk lumaflies

[olive quartz]

they aren't, the automatons in the core attack hornet for the same reason your immune system attacks an invader

[fathom hill]

yah of course, but why doesn't gms just haunt them if there's silk in their bodies like everything else

[lime osprey]

I'm confused, what does haunted bugs have to do with the allure of GMS

[limpid summit]

I mean GMS can manipulate them if she chooses it’s all up to her

[fathom hill]

Would gms not be interested in the robots particularly? if so why

[limpid summit]

Why would she allow bugs to put her to sleep after waking up

[fathom hill]

Maybe she just doesn't consider them and the work a threat, giving the core isn't really finished?

[olive quartz]

i mean the opening scene of the game is a silk fly acting against GMS so i don't think she can really control them

[fathom hill]

That was what i thought

[lime osprey]

meh, it's lace controlling it so

[fathom hill]

But that's interesting, why are silk flies able to escape her

Is it the concentration of soul?

are the silk flies pale beings too

[hexed kindle]

Gms doesn't allure bugs she just haunts them

Haunted bugs lack a sense of self yet can still do stuff although primitive stuff

[dawn sluice]

not really incredibly primitive

they can still write and sing and think in some way

[hexed kindle]

Underdeveloped then

[dawn sluice]

they DO have a TERRIBLE sense of intrusive thoughts

[hexed kindle]

Silk fly stuff goes into whiteward territory

[fathom hill]

dunno what that means but I'm joking

[hexed kindle]

Whiteward lore

[fathom hill]

yah

[nocturne vortex]

Small qn who locked up green prince

[limpid summit]

We aren’t really sure

There’s another mini prison in the Marrow

Maybe those were for small time offenders

[nocturne vortex]

Did he rise up against citadel? Or they just locked him in case

[craggy smelt]

he might have locked himself up out of shame

picked the closest prison (or prison-like facility)

[silk dirge]

i mean he was in a roach cage i doubt the citadel put him there

my guess would be maybe some haunted sinners road guy

[neat night]

Do u guys think void exists all over the world in the hollow knight world?
Deep down everywhere

[stoic moth]

yes

or possibly only under places with large concentrations of bugs

[neat night]

I mean. Bugs are everywhere in the world. So I would say yes. And silksong hints at this being the case

[craggy smelt]

yes

dig deep enough, and you'll strike Void

[neat night]

What I like about silksong is: it shows how hornet view has changed. Especially when it comes to abnormal bugs. When she meets the knight she calls them ghost. Nothing but an empty vessel made of the darkness. No will no voice...etc. and there is no way they could save the kingdom. But she was proven wrong. And then in silksong. She meets lace. A creature entirely made of silk. While lace says she doesn't have live. Hornet tells her she is as real as anyone else. Her view has clearly shifted. And if we take the sister of the void ending. It proves that the knight is more than what their origins define them to be. It is just so cool.

[abstract rivet]

yeah

[fast surge]

Could Phantom have been trained by the Pinstresses?

[river yarrow]

So, is there better future for Leg eater if I don't let him smell the unbreakable charm? or that's inevitable?

[royal elbow]

If you banish the troupe without ever showing him those charms, he just stays down there.

[river yarrow]

I've shown him once, before buying the 3rd unbreakable charm. how about it? will he still follow divine later, or not?

[hushed viper]

i just realised, what's with the importance of pilgrims in silksong, like in pharlooms there's ALOT of pilgrims trying to get to the citadel, from where do they even hear about it tho?

[royal elbow]

No I think it's only after you got all 3.

[quick geyser]

Bruh

For context, we are talking about Lace

[valid coral]

Presumably just other bugs out in the wastes talking about a golden city where all wishes are granted

[maiden meteor]

it seems citadel is self-sustaining system

Caretaker dialogue implies that all pilgrims come from Citadel inhabitants

because silks from whiteward experiments was passed onto pilgrims

[formal valley]

WHY THOSE FCKASS BUGS DONT HAVE 6 LEGS

[lethal burrow]

which ones

[formal valley]

EVERY BUG IN HK

almost*

[lethal burrow]

calm down

[hushed viper]

The same reason why fleas in this game look more like dogs than actual fleas

Btw, what are crests exactly? Like ik Eva says it's like a reseprentation of a person but like, why does certain crests allows you to hold different amounts of different types of tools? Like how the wanderer's crest only allows you to hold 1 red tool as opposed to hunter which allows you to hold 2. I can understand each crest have different moveset due to a way someone fights can vary differently depending on the person but, holding tools is physical so i don't see how equipping wanderer's crest is meant to make her lose the ability to throw more tools.

My only theory is that it affects her personality in a way, like how wanderer's crest is from a pilgrim, which usually do not use weapons so when she uses the crest she is more opposed to using weapons like red tools. While architech crest is from an architech which primarily uses tools for for their work so she feels more inclined to use more of them directly

[wise sand]

😔 stylization

[ornate pier]

Pretty sure that's exactly how it works

[wise sand]

I really wish hk was a bit less stylized tbh

[ornate pier]

It's like how the beast crest changes hornet's taunt

[ornate pier]

Why tho

[wise sand]

Wdym the only roach-like bugs we have are the skrill

[wise sand]

Less stylized bugs are cool

Hk does a good job at stylizing tho

[ornate pier]

I mean god tamer is believable as a cockroach
Muckroaches are js like alligator wolves

[frigid belfry]

good theory and supported by the fact that the beast crest literally changes hornets taunt and voicelines

[wise sand]

Those are NOT roaches

The only thing roach about them is their name

[frigid belfry]

they look more like dwarf crocodiles

[stray fog]

They look like scp 682

[sterile wraith]

how did bellbeast have children? does she reproduce asexually?

[opaque pier]

With others if her species???

Of*

[stray fog]

Another bell beast could be somewhere in the bellways

[sterile wraith]

i thought she was the last one in the bellways?

[stray fog]

Also why have you been playing silksong for the last 19 hours straight

[sterile wraith]

none of your business

[stray fog]

😭

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think there’s really any indication she’s the last

Just the one Hornet happened to save and bond with

[sterile wraith]

i guess i associated it a bit to the last stag

[opaque pier]

Even the last stag wasnt the last stag

[lethal burrow]

yeah like the pale stag

[lean temple]

Completely different types of stags

[lean temple]

Well she's a new mom so there must be more

[cursive sinew]

Also a bad example because the Palestag is far in the past anyway

Unless its still alive but I highly doubt it

[opaque pier]

Cant u just squeeze some pale oil onto a cloverstag to make a new palestag?

[cursive sinew]

Shrug

[lean temple]

Well those are also dead anyway

[cursive sinew]

Also that sounds... not right

[opaque pier]

Oh right

[frigid belfry]

doesnt work like that

[lean temple]

And if it's that easy you'd think verdania would've tried it. Whatever the process was likely it was pretty unique and unrepeatable

[opaque pier]

Wait just do a red memory spell on a still alive green prince to yank it out, the problem is thay the green prince isnt part weaver so idk if that would work

[lean temple]

Hmm

No clue

[opaque pier]

Green memory

[lean temple]

I mean you'd need who knows how much power

[cursive sinew]

I would think its enough for a Weaver to go into tbe memory and snatch it themselves

[lean temple]

So it's practically impossible

[cursive sinew]

But since its a living creature it may take more than just alfower yeah

[opaque pier]

1% of shermas power is enough

[lean temple]

My thoughts too

[frigid belfry]

i mean a void stopping legendary flower versus some bum "pale" stag

zero feats btw

😔

[lean temple]

Controls the flora around it or smthg

[frigid belfry]

fraudulent unn

[lean temple]

I wonder could Hornet have taken out like 2 everblooms from her memory, or was she limited to one

Cuz like two would've been enough to take her in and out

Unless two mythical flowers that ward against the Void require too much power

[opaque pier]

I mean yeah two is more than one so probably

[frigid belfry]

one kind of killed all 3 shamans and required the weakened powers of 3 beings at the level of demigods

[cursive sinew]

What does that mean?

It can be carried by a normal bug like Elderbug the flower has nothing but the ability to ward off the void

[cursive sinew]

Also no I am 95% sure the Shamans sacrificed themselves for the ritual

Not that the flower killed them

[frigid belfry]

yeah im saying the power of the ritual caused them to die, not the flower itself

so it wasnt possible to get 2 flowers

[cursive sinew]

Ah

Yeah that makes more sense

[lean temple]

"Has nothing but the ability to ward off void" as if that's not a super powerful ability in itself. Even the Shamans thought it was only a myth. WL greatly emphasises how precious and special it is.

[abstract rivet]

What happened to Nyleth like

Her OST is very sad but i dont know why

There has to be some implications

[cursive sinew]

It is a powerful ability but I mean to say that its just that to our knowledge. It can fend off and even completely void void. But it doesnt have any sort of great power aside from that that would actually let it like obliterate a higher being (that isnt void of course, if that is a higher being to begin with)

The message I replied to originally sounded off to me which is why I explainrd it like this

But I am aware the ability to ward off the void is powerful by itself

And yes the flower is very much rare

[subtle plaza]

Does trobbio listen to death grips

[valid coral]

She seemed to be the only old god on somewhat good terms with the Citadel?

At least that's how I understood it

[abstract rivet]

yeah but what happened to her lowkey

why is her OST so sad there has to be something

[valid coral]

Her ost is shared by Seth so it's probably for both of them

[unique canopy]

If we take the roundabout method to get to her as being diegetic instead of solely for gameplay reasons (since they could've easily just put a silk soar spot in Shellwood itself) then the Citadel is basically stabbing through the heart of Shellwood, cutting her off from her own domain. Plus all previous forms of recognition outside of her own shrine are gone, replaced with veneration of the Weavers instead, so she might not even be remembered by anyone anymore.

[abstract rivet]

how are they stabbing the heart

[valid coral]

Metaphorically

[abstract rivet]

ah

[valid coral]

Disconnecting her from Shellwood

As she is the source of Shellwood

[abstract rivet]

where was she the last time before her death

[valid coral]

Presumably contained within the shrine?

Nyeleth is the old heart we know the least about imo

[abstract rivet]

bruh the citadels so fucking evil

they build a shrine in honour of her to harm her? dammit

Is ccmaci’s lore video worth to watch

[valid coral]

Its easy to forget while traversing it that this wondrous place is built with the blood of like 6 different kingdoms

[valid coral]

He explains each ending and their consequences along with weighing out which HK ending is the most likely

[unique canopy]

Plus we don't know precisely what Greymoor and the Wisp Thicket looked like before the Citadel got big. We know Greymoor used to be farmland, and Shellwood is the main hunting ground for Bellhart. Wisp Thicket has its own residents with their fire cult. And the bell homes and bell tunnels including Bellhart itself are slicing right down the middle of that, from the Underworks all the way down to the Marrow. It's possible what we see in the game in Shellwood is small compared to how it was at its height.

[valid coral]

The fire cult started because of the silk being embedded in the entirety of pharloom didn't it?

[unique canopy]

Seems that way. Theory I've seen is they tried burning the silk out of them to prevent being haunted

[valid coral]

That's what I'm thinking as well

Which seems to have worked considering that they aren't haunted I believe

[abstract rivet]

is wisp thicket haunted

why’d they just attack us if theyre not like atleast, areal friendly cult would offer some fire stuff

[unique canopy]

Bordering the Underworks and Greymoor while also being close to Sinner's Road, they're probably just against outsides because their only contact is with the Citadel servants

This is assuming they don't have some way to tell that Hornet herself produces silk, which they would hate because they associate it with the Haunting

[abstract rivet]

is Nyleth same species as Isma

I feel like Nyleth is basically Isma of this game cus who the fuck are they both

[valid coral]

At least we got more info on Isma in hidden dreams

Foreshadowing for Nyeleth lore in silksong DLC? Who knows

[unique canopy]

Isma's body was overgrown by vegetation in her grove, when we see the Court in the background of the White Defender fight she's the shortest of the knights and doesn't really look like Nyleth

[abstract rivet]

Memory DLC Memory DLC

we see more Shellwood content

[spark valve]

probably

they do the same shit look similar etc

comparing isma before setting down roots to nyleth after setting down roots doesn't exactly make much sense

they share the skirts, the gahlia, both are plant beings that a region of flora grow out of

[lean temple]

Isma somewhat resembles the Gahlia enemy

Darn it tammo beat me to it

The thing is Isma is never said to have been a foreigner like Ze'mer, same for Nyleth

[spark valve]

Grow... Settle... Seed...

...Distant reach... distant life...

as for isma being foreign it's not stated but she's super different from anything else in hallownest so

[lean temple]

Mosskin maybe?

[spark valve]

very very different situations

[lean temple]

Hallownest itself is pretty diverse

This might be an Elder Hu from Shakra's tribe situation

You can argue similarity but there's no explicit proof

[spark valve]

there doesn't have to be

[lean temple]

True but people will ask you for it

[spark valve]

but also like two groups of bugs arriving at similar weapons is way less substantial than two plant beings with similar design elements and one with spawn that look like the other that do the same things

[lean temple]

Fair point

[spark valve]

and the implication of nyleth's dialogue is that she's a foreign entity who came to pharloom to seed life it's not that big a stretch to suggest she's not unique in origin or purpose

[lean temple]

Makes you wonder what Nyleth even is

Some conisder her a higher being

[spark valve]

she probably isn't that

[valid coral]

Plant 👍

Jokes aside she could be an Isma situation but she managed to persist after

Or could be a type of Root like greyroot

[lean temple]

Roots don't have flowers

[heavy gyro]

Nyleth seems to be an actual flower not a bug

[lean temple]

She's clearly not a Root

[lean temple]

Yea, we have other non-bug races so it's not unheard of

[valid coral]

Although she imitates a bug with the mask

[lean temple]

False mask like the gahlia's probably

I wonder what else is a "false" mask

[abstract rivet]

snail shawmans geniuenly the second most shady bugs of all time

[frosty gate]

Which is the first?

[twin dragon]

Hbs

Mb they arent "bugs"

[frosty gate]

They also aren't really shady.
To be shady you gotta be mysterious and discreet, HB's are very openly assholes

Except Unn

[opaque pier]

The siblings

Get it?

[mighty swallow]

fr

[opaque pier]

I did not deserve that reaction, i was super funny

[twin dragon]

They do some rlly weird shit if youre a common bug

[abstract rivet]

Weavers

nothing good came out of weavers

[frosty gate]

Yes, but very openly, they don't take you to a backalley and tell you, "Yo I can fix your problem with a bit of this" and pulls out a gun

[frosty gate]

Just Hornet, and that's a stretch

[lean temple]

Not HBs, no

[valid coral]

It is extremely funny how almost everyone you meet who knew them calls them assholes

[frosty gate]

And rightfully so

[abstract rivet]

Deepnest is just a fancy name for Weavenest Herrah

[frosty gate]

One thing I don't get, the Weavers lured people from the Surface to below, did they just not notice the big ball of cheese in the background?

[frosty gate]

Not really deepnest, but the Weaver Nest that's Hidden

That's definitely a Weavenest

And Herrah might've distanced herself from the Weavers

But i'm just speculating about that

[lean temple]

GMS's cocoon? It was off limits for most of not all common bugs

[abstract rivet]

these guys have big ball as their stupid head and think theyre divine and holy and all that greatness

[frosty gate]

For the ones below, yes, but Nameless Town is above the Cradle

[abstract rivet]

I legit cannot take them seriously with those bobbly heads

[lean temple]

Oh I see what you mean

There's likely another way down

And less hazardous too

[valid coral]

They could probably have just gaslit the surface bugs into thinking this is their holy creation or something

Pretty good PR for your "religon" if some bugs from above the kingdom speak of your holy creation at the peak

[twin dragon]

The vessel void thing wasnt rlly open to the public

[valid coral]

Do you want your kingdom to know your plan to save them all is to stuff it all into a dead child puppeted by an eldritch horror?

[frosty gate]

I mean, sure, but that was a last resort type thing, I don't consider it to be shady

[frosty gate]

Actually, it makes sense, they did worship the Silk in a way, didn't they?

[valid coral]

Seeing as the cocoon was the symbol of the citadel yes

They didn't know what was inside however

Except for the conductors

[frosty gate]

And the Pontiff, eventually

[valid coral]

I guess by proxy of their jobs the highest vaultkeepers also knew the truth

[frosty gate]

Not really, it seems only the Pontiff, who could acces literally every info, knew of it

Which is why he became obsessed and protective of the thingy

The Song

[valid coral]

By pontiff do you mean Cardinius?

Or the old dead vaultkeeper?

[frosty gate]

No, he's just a Vaultkeeper, the Pontiff is the dead one

He's called "The Pontiff"

[valid coral]

Noted

Although Cardinius actively curses weavers so he knows something

[frosty gate]

That is true, but he also may just rightfully hate the Weavers for everything else

"This holy Citadel, in glory and fall, there are holes in its history, even to a Keeper's knowledge, even to the vaults."

He also doesn't mention anything regarding GMS or The Cradle

He doesn't seem to have heard the Sacred Melody

"Only our pontiff, lived long and low within our vault, they held the melody, jealously, covetously... A learning for the highest Vaultkeeper, and them alone.
A truth they were told to have found... There in the dark. Something within the melody, or the words. Something to set them silent..."

It doesn't even seem like the Pontiff should've found that information by the way

Contrary to the Conductors, who were very well into the loop

Or so it seems, considering Romino and Ballador talk about GMS in a very subtle way

I think Pharloom's Folly might've been what put Romino in the Slab, assuming he's Romino, of course

[kind cairn]

can someone explain the ending with the trap?

[frosty gate]

The ending with the trap?

[kind cairn]

the trap that caretaker sets

[frosty gate]

Have you checked your save files?

[kind cairn]

im still in the credits

why tho?

[frosty gate]

Trust me, go back to the save after the credits end

[kind cairn]

WHAT THE HECK IS THAT

there were like void tenticles at teh save file

[frosty gate]

Click em

[kind cairn]

oh

thats the thing that takes me to act3

[frosty gate]

Also, that's more of a SKHelp convo, idk how are those channels doing though

[kind cairn]

i genuinely thought that was an ending

if i continue would the thing that just happend get explained?

[foggy fractal]

yes

[kind cairn]

alr thnx

[frosty gate]

Not only does he speak about GMS in a subtle way, it kinda also seems to be written out of spite

[heavy gyro]

Old penitent doesn't really look like a conductor

[tepid mountain]

You don’t really see the conductors outside of their big cloth hat helmet things.

[brave yoke]

if you mean the guy who refuses to leave the prison, I'm not convinced if that's them

I always assumed Romino wrote the poem, but never "published" it

it would be kinda, you know... life-ending lol

[heavy gyro]

Yeah but the old penitent 's head is too large for a conductor

[opaque pier]

Bodyshaming in silksong

[limpid summit]

That’s what I would guess even though I’m not sure he’s Romino

Romino could always be the conductor corpse in the wastes too

Like if old penitent is Romino other conductors discovering the poem would be enough to kick him out

[frosty gate]

I'm pretty sure Old P is literally singing the Conductor's part of the Threefold Song

[limpid summit]

I feel like

Like it doesn’t really sound like the conductor’s melody

I thought it at first but it just isn’t really the same

[brave yoke]

I just listened to him, I have to say his singing is AWESOME

but no, it's a different melody.

whoever is his VA, they did a great job : D

[frosty gate]

It's not a Corpse, is just the Mantle

[unique canopy]

Given that and the location, interesting thought that he basically just noped out and chucked the mantle at the edge of the kingdom

[tepid mountain]

I do feel like that’s the most likely thing, just because TC specifically put his mantle at the edge of the kingdom. Coming to terms with Grandma’s beastliness and the consequences of her waking, I can see him writing the poem and then running away.

Is my theory anyway, I don’t think he was put in the Slab.

[frosty gate]

The first few notes sound the same not gonna lie

The rest doesn't

I still think it's Romino

[frigid belfry]

yes cuh

[frosty gate]

We really don't know how they look below

The mantle could be a hat for all we know

Which would make sense, considering the top thing is pure gold and there's no holes for breathing or looking

[tepid mountain]

Yeah, the dome at the top could just be a decorative piece on the top of the hat, and what would normally be seen as “the shoulders” is actually the rim.

[frosty gate]

It should also be noted that Old P has an amazing singing voice, probably the best in the entire game

And you telling me this is a random big dude?

[tepid mountain]

His devoutness just doesn’t really seem that of someone that would write the poem. Also, he refers to his sin as “a grave transgression, the cause of much pain for many.”

So either he is Romino, and was like, brainwashed into believing the poem was something that “caused pain for many,” or he’s just an old pilgrim that did (or believes he did) something really awful a long time ago.

Cause his devoutness is very pilgrim-esque to me, personally.

[frosty gate]

That's fair, but he talks with too much grace to be a common pilgrim, he was definitely part of the Citadel

And 100% part of the Choir at the very least, that Song is no little thing

[frigid belfry]

hes most likely not ballador though

[tepid mountain]

The best I understand, such a devout pilgrim with such a good voice might be made a part of a higher caste in the Citadel. And he just stayed there long enough to come to talk as graceful as he did.

But then it’s like, why was he locked up? So I dunno.

[frosty gate]

Crack theory incoming

Trying to make sense where there's none

Absoluely baseless

[frigid belfry]

the old penitent is gms

prediction

[frosty gate]

If Old P is indeed Romino and his sin caused a great deal of pain, it might've been that after he wrote the Folly, he thought about resisting the Weavers.
He speaks of the "Holy Silence" that other penitents speak of too, maybe he just tried to silencing the song

Causing pain to a lot of people because he literally dragged a whole bunch of the choir to the slab with him

[valid coral]

Romino being the reason that GMS started to awaken would be insane

[frosty gate]

There's a corpse of a Puny Penitent in the slab you can use the Needolin on and it says "Forgive my silence"

So I think the Sin was the Silence

[valid coral]

This isnt a sickness thing either since that's for whiteward

[edgy nebula]

You’re obviously wrong, it’s lace

[valid coral]

This is a choir bug willingly choosing to stop singing

[frosty gate]

Well we do know they send people to die if they're infirm

[valid coral]

To recycle the silk from their bodies and convert them to silkflys

[exotic vortex]

hello

gonnna leave an ass theory here

[unique canopy]

You're in good company then

[exotic vortex]

godhome dlc = steel city
godhome statues = statues made of steel
pantheon = idfk put something here

W or ass theory

[frigid belfry]

idk seems more likely that its going to based on memories

never is, because the radiance isnt

[frosty gate]

They did that in the Whiteward, not the slab

[valid coral]

Oh I thought you were talking about whiteward there

[opaque pier]

WHAT???

[valid coral]

They do send some bugs with sickness to slab instead

Wonder why some go to whiteward and others to the slab?

[opaque pier]

Ohhh

U almost tricked me bru

[frosty gate]

No, there's a Slab lore tablet that deems someone "Guilty of the sins of infirmity, sickness"

[valid coral]

So sickness is for the slab

Loss of voice is whiteward iirc

Pale ore could also be placed by the bugs who worshipped the radiance at the statue as tribute

[opaque pier]

Nosk is a pale being confirmed

[frigid belfry]

the radiance is not a pale being

[opaque pier]

What about the colosseum of fools fool that throws the pale ore at you 🤔

[frigid belfry]

a statue of the radiance with pale ore doesnt mean anything by that logic (which is correct)

[opaque pier]

Nah trust me radiance IS a pale being and so is the fleamaster because they give you the pale oil 👀

[frosty gate]

Sins go to the slab, the Whiteward is just a laboratory to experiment on people

Regular, non-guilty of sin people

[opaque pier]

She?

[valid coral]

Just random raffle if you get sent to the surgeons from hell I guess

[frosty gate]

I believe it was seen as good, let me check

[valid coral]

Fucking everything citadel was seen as good

[unique canopy]

The Slab is much older than Whiteward, and by the time of the game the bugs in the Slab are basically their own self-perpetuating caste separate from the actual Citadel denizens.

[frosty gate]

"Oath of the Whiteward
While song must be sung, none may falter.
Infirmity. Sickness. Death.
All are banished from our Citadel."

Yeah it's a lab to keep people from dying

We actually don't know if any of the ones in WW was actually sick

[lean temple]

She's never referred to as a PB. Pale Ore is a valuable precious metal which makes a good offering regardless of who you're offering it too. If Radiance was a Pale Being we would've known years ago

[solemn hinge]

She's a Higher Being in a dream

She's not some kind of god of dreams as far as we know

[lean temple]

She's not said to be the highest power in the dream realm

She is a god of dreams ig but not the god of dreams as far as we know, unlike the Nightmare's Heart being the deepest power in the nightmare realm

[solemn hinge]

Though at the same time, I believe Nightmares are just a subset of Dreams, soooo

[lean temple]

The wording is confusing

The nightmare realm is separate from the rest, but the whole is referred to as the dream expanse

That's pretty explicitly stated, yes.

A difference ig is in the kind of essence that makes up each, dreams are made of light while nightmares are made of scarlet flame

I think the highest power of the dream realm should be similar in nature to the Radiance, brilliant and stuff.

[hexed kindle]

Father of the flame is cool

[solemn hinge]

So Nightmares and Dreams were formerly the same, but then split? Makes sense to me

[hexed kindle]

Also his bugs aren't affected by the haunting OR void tendrils

[solemn hinge]

Top 10 times Hornet was kinda just an asshole tbh

[stoic moth]

void == accumulated regrets yes?
unlikely abyss is very deep under howling wastes

hallownest has shallower void than pharloom -> pk was a better ruler than weavers/conductors?

[solemn hinge]

Void != accumulated regrets

That's just funny respawn stuff which is not canon

Fair enough

[stoic moth]

do you have?

i think the main difference is quantity of power, not quality of power

[solemn hinge]

No clue

Other than being epic tree mode

[abstract rivet]

City of Tears rains water and Greymoor rains bug poop so Greymoor is objectively the better area

[frosty gate]

Propagation

[solemn hinge]

I mean, some

[stoic moth]

blue tool slots

[tranquil spear]

shakra

[solemn hinge]

I dunno what Unn's innate desire is, probably has one but we dunno what it is

[stoic moth]

peace/rest

[abstract rivet]

unn is just a very chill gal

[stoic moth]

very plantlike in that regard

[solemn hinge]

She a lady

[abstract rivet]

oke

[solemn hinge]

I feel like "desire to survive" is a bit cheating

[abstract rivet]

Unn and Nyleth js lowk chill gals

[solemn hinge]

I think... most things have that desire

[abstract rivet]

Radiance is both desire to rule and survive in my opinion

[stoic moth]

radiance- desire for worship

[abstract rivet]

She’s very authoritarian

[stoic moth]

gms perhaps desire for song

[abstract rivet]

GMS is also both rule n survive

she gets lowkey a little angy when shes betrayed

[lean temple]

Unn is desire to create ig

Pale Beings in general seem to have a desire to rule

WL has shown advanced psychic abilities (knows her mind is being read, blocks attunement, can communicate through a memory)

[stoic moth]

to grow?

[solemn hinge]

That is true!

[lean temple]

Ah yes, lasting eternal, the folly of all HBs

[stoic moth]

unn gets it done twin

greenpath shall never wither

[lean temple]

Cuz she's the best, duh

[solemn hinge]

Unn is doing well, WL is doing well

[lean temple]

It would be funny if WL is now even bigger in Silksong's time

[stoic moth]

wl sealed herself in big ahh arcane egg because she was lowkey going to start going twisted bud mode

[lean temple]

Oh and WL can sense things with her roots

Although this seems limited to things related to her

She cannot discern if it is Ogrim infront of her or not when we were his crest

[solemn hinge]

What

She thinks it's Ogrim cause she remember his stank

[lean temple]

Yea

I meant to say she isn't able to "sense" if he's actually there with her roots

[solemn hinge]

Oh, I misread lol

[lean temple]

She can "sense" the Knight and THK for example

[solemn hinge]

She doesn't even know Dryya is gone :(

[lean temple]

:(

Rip Dryya

I really wonder what the extent of the bindings are on WL's power

Would she be able to see and sense and hear much better without them?

The nose knows

[regal crow]

What happened to Verdania and how’d Green Prince escape it?

I notice those little guys move and attack like Dancers

I took a look at present day Verdania and goddamn 0.o

[unique canopy]

Keep playing and he says what happened

[sick cobalt]

Is the green prince actually older than elderbug? Even older than the weavers?

[frosty gate]

Maybe, probably, ages are weird in this world

GP could probably even be older than Hornet I think

[lean temple]

He definitely is

Verdania is pretty long dead

Elderbug is just young in general

[lethal burrow]

no?

[abstract rivet]

smh its sarcasm

mb twin

[lethal burrow]

people can't wait 10 seconds, they yearn for the spoilers

[lethal burrow]

they aren't

[lean temple]

Old Penitent seems to have been from the nameless town

[lethal burrow]

It would be weird for him to be from the nameless town

[frosty gate]

What?

[lean temple]

And there's the Conductor hat in blasted steps which could be Romino

[sinful nimbus]

???

What's this about Nameless Town

[lean temple]

Someone talking about old penitent being a Conductor or smthg

[sinful nimbus]

That's tuff

[frosty gate]

Yeah, what does this have to do with NT?

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know why it isn't plausible

[lethal burrow]

oh you talked about his singing, so I assumed you heard his song dialogue mb.

It references the nameless town pretty directly

[lean temple]

Old Penitent is implied to be from the surface

[lethal burrow]

I've been saying this since before the mossbag video

[sinful nimbus]

Where

Also Nameless Town isn't the only place on the surface

[lethal burrow]

I said where a few sentences ago

[wise sand]

Hes old by mortal bug standards

[frosty gate]

Wait Star cool the jets, they do make a solid point

[silk dirge]

i definitely see it

[sinful nimbus]

He's describing the Citadel

[silk dirge]

"drawn down"

[wise sand]

The old hearts are barely mortal the same way everyone else is imo

[lean temple]

Sly and Nailmasters and Nailsmith are all older. Ogrim too

[frosty gate]

The Drawn Down, yes, it could be, but the "Wastes"

[sinful nimbus]

The Citadel drew people down from the wastes yes

[lethal burrow]

"A fool beliefs star, but a greater fool believes star believes themself."

[sinful nimbus]

Its about as convincing as saying he's part of the sisters accord

[vestal swan]

It's not even really saying that's where the character themselves is from just lamenting the events that happened? Does the song ever put the emphasis on it being the penitent's journey?

Because while it does seem like it's referencing the surface town the old penitent would have to be literally older than every other character besides GMS

[sinful nimbus]

?

[silk dirge]

i mean how would he know this stuff otherwise

[frosty gate]

I think it could go both ways, nothing definitiv

[silk dirge]

yeah

[lean temple]

Drawn down by the Weavers' allure

[vestal swan]

There's no way the surface town was being dragged down while the citadel was still doing shit, it's more likely the surface town was the first one added to the citadel/cult
I mean that would kind of skip the entire pilgrimage

[silk dirge]

yeah

[sinful nimbus]

he's a conductor

[frosty gate]

But the Citadel did bring people down, lure them into the hole, that's what the corpse says at least

[sinful nimbus]

He's clearly a knowledgeable fella

I don't think this is abnormal

[lean temple]

Well yeah he's old, and not like the Citadel doesn't have radical life extension

[vestal swan]

Pharlids, aren't there some up towards the top? Pharlids come down with/before the town etc. it's just retelling the terrible history, not really the penitents experience

[regal crow]

Is green prince a higher being?

[silk dirge]

no

[lean temple]

So theoretically his sin could've been knowing the whole Pharlid situation? Like I don't think he's that old

[vestal swan]

I don't think it makes sense for him to be from the town, because of either the backwards pilgrimage or the absurd amount of time that is being placed on this imo.
But to be fair this game already has worse inconsistencies

[lethal burrow]

it's probably worthwhile that somebody actually get the nameless town dialogue, I can't find it on the wiki, but it's definitely good to have for this discussion

[sinful nimbus]

Only HB in Pharloom is GMS

[sinful nimbus]

"The weaving ones beckon...
Sweet promises whispered...
From depths below...
Friends seduced...
Now only the wind..."

[vestal swan]

And nyleth

[sinful nimbus]

Not really

GMS is barely a higher being too

[vestal swan]

Feats, aura

[regal crow]

HB?

[sinful nimbus]

higher being

[vestal swan]

Higher being

[regal crow]

Right

[frosty gate]

I was about to quote this, it literally says people were brought down

[regal crow]

By the weavers

[lethal burrow]

"From wastes, from darkness... Drawn down... blessed call... Sisters... accord... Silence above..."

"The weaving ones beckon...
Sweet promises whispered...
From depths below...
Friends seduced...
Now only the wind..."

I think you can't sincerely deny that there is a clear connection to be reasonably be made between these.

[lean temple]

"The weaving ones beckon...
Sweet promises whispered...
From depths below...
Friends seduced...
Now only the wind..."

[vestal swan]

I'm not saying there's not a connection I'm saying the town is not where the penitent one is from

[lean temple]

That was awful to find

[regal crow]

I knew it, it is pharloom’s dirtmouth

[vestal swan]

Nah

[lethal burrow]

I don't see any other interpretation of that dialogue that makes it make sense so what do you think is happening?

[regal crow]

Equivalent, not actually dirtmouth

[vestal swan]

Theyr just telling the history, lore dump from one of the victims who didn't fall for their bullshit

[lethal burrow]

Victims of what in this context just so we are being specific

[frosty gate]

They mean that the Dialogue isn't depicting what Old P went through, but what they saw perhaps

[vestal swan]

Physical location wise yeah kind of, but in that sense they have two dirtmouths

[silk dirge]

i wonder if loam is from nameless town

loam doesnt seem like a pilgrim

[lethal burrow]

That's not something I actually considered, but it is ...interesting

hmm

[vestal swan]

The lie the citadel the weavers, they don't have to be super ancient and from this town to be victims of the system

[lethal burrow]

sure, but old pen seems to have absolutely fallen for the bullshit though

[vestal swan]

Loam is so odd lookin

[frosty gate]

Loam doesn't even look like a Bug

[regal crow]

The other’s bone bottom?

[solemn hinge]

Loam is very long horse coded

[silk dirge]

borzoi coded

[vestal swan]

Well

Not bone bottom exactly, shellwood and bell heart

[frosty gate]

I think that, whether Old P is from the Nameless Town or somewhere else, it doesn't change the fact that he could be a Romino

[vestal swan]

If the bridges didn't keep breaking the entry town would be in the middle

[frosty gate]

Or a Conductor

[silk dirge]

I CANT UNSEE IT

[solemn hinge]

Bro what is that image

His nose cropped off and low quality as hell 😭

[silk dirge]

idk

[lilac hedge]

You talkin bout my boy da wise d

[regal crow]

Makes sense if you think of blasted steps as the gateway to pharloom

[silk dirge]

no fun allowed

[solemn hinge]

Mod hates fun, more news at 8

[lean temple]

The dead Conductor in blasted steps is more likely (since it's actually a Conductor)

[silk dirge]

sk lore before powdered finished silksong

[lethal burrow]

he could be, but his head doesn't really match the conductor crowns, and romino's pretty much only character trait is calling out the bullshit which old pen seems to be fully bought into.
and there is the conductor crown at the blasted steps, right where you pass as his poem is being shown on screen.

So I don't think there's anything pointing the old penitent more than like...lumble the lucky.

imo romino either ran away and abandoned his clothes or he's dead

[frosty gate]

It's not dead, it's just the Mantle

We don't see a corpse, just the hat

[vestal swan]

But he's not a bad ass crab, he's not going to turn gray he's going to get worn down by the sand

I don't think we see any actual bodies on the wastes?

[silk dirge]

fun fact there is a lake in the wastes

you see it for a few seconds in the opening cutscene

[vestal swan]

?

[frosty gate]

With the crown you mean the centerpiece of the hat?

[lethal burrow]

I mean the metal thing that they wear on their heads

I don't know what it doesn't have a real name. I just called it a crown because they're the rulers in their time.

[lean temple]

Yes, which could've belonged to Romino

[silk dirge]

https://youtu.be/vkmC-ULdLAQ?si=zQKfqyLBvqhgDyA4&t=61

you can see what looks like water

[lilac hedge]

Maybe thats js somewhere random in the wastelands

[silk dirge]

yeah probably

but its a cool detail

[vestal swan]

It looks more like a puddle, or just a reflective surface the light is messing with

Like it looks about as wide as that area with the busted pipes by that bench near high Halls

[silk dirge]

it looks watery to me but yeah its probably not a massive body of water

[frosty gate]

Yeah i mean, wdym i doesn't match? We don't know how the Conductors look below

[lethal burrow]

we see the conductor crown, and we see the size of the part where the head is, and the part is too small for the old pendant to fit in possibly at all

[kind cairn]

It was like 3 hours ago brother 😭 and tbh idm the spoilers I just wanted to know what the heck happend

[stray fog]

How do those birds in the wastes even survive

Like what do they eat

[lethal burrow]

probably wastes

[stray fog]

There's nothing to to eat

[silk dirge]

sand

i mean theres probably shit out there

[frosty gate]

That's what I'm saying, that's not the head

[silk dirge]

skrill are probably common waste bugs

[lethal burrow]

wha- then why do you think the eye holes are there?

[silk dirge]

oh yeah also apparently garpids and skrill are references to the quirrel prequel comic

[lethal burrow]

I feel like those are for the eyes, and the head would be connected to the eyes personably

Like where is the wrongness? Would I not understanding you? What's going on?

huh?

[frosty gate]

You mean this?

[lethal burrow]

Yes

[frosty gate]

There's literally no holes, those are pure gold

[stray fog]

I thought the conductors were just built like that by default

[frosty gate]

Whatever material it is

[lethal burrow]

So what do you think they just wear like a flat hat then?

[frosty gate]

It doesn't look hollow || ||

[frosty gate]

Yeah, the thing is just a Symbol i guess, like a mask? It's just a theory, but a bug that big can't have a head that small

And conductors are massive by bug standards

[lethal burrow]

I refuse to accept this is what you mean

This is dumb

[molten cypress]

But it looks so cute

[lethal burrow]

I don't like this

[frosty gate]

Probably no the white head, that's a mask, you don't need that under a veil

But still wtf you think they look like? Big ass bug with a small head that fits perfectly in that golden thingy?

The eyes arent even holes

[lethal burrow]

Yes

[lilac hedge]

What are w discussing about again

[lethal burrow]

Whether the thing on the conductors that looks like head is actually their head

[lilac hedge]

Isnt it just gms coccon

But like kinda cut in half

[queen rune]

it's def just a mask

[vestal swan]

The jail has the penitent wearing a giant metal collar around their face?

[lethal burrow]

Masks, presumably have heads in them

[lethal burrow]

I'm pretty sure their face was showing

[vestal swan]

The big metal collars make it look like only the top of their head is poking out

[lethal burrow]

Could you grab it?

[vestal swan]

!wiki old penitent

[molten cypress]

Tbf these proportions don't sound that crazy considering how deliberately odd the bugs of this universe look

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Old_Penitent

Hollow Knight Wiki

Old Penitent

Old Penitent is an NPC in Hollow Knight: Silksong. He provides lore on The Slab and its penitents and jailers.

Location

The Slab

Role

Miscellaneous

Affiliations

The Slab (Prisoner)

Gender

Male

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Old_Penitent_Sing.ogg

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Old_Penitent_Sing_02.ogg

[vestal swan]

Oh yeah their head is way out of that thing

I thought they were wearing the same type of gear as the other ones

[lilac hedge]

Just the resemblance of gms coccon but with some eyes ig, you can see the lower part of the drawing in the golden plate

[frosty gate]

They'd have to find 3 identical bugs that have a big ass body and a lil head

At least 3

[lethal burrow]

yeah, their head is visible, just covered in some rags

[lethal burrow]

But they're not even connected all the way through what are you talking about? They're completely different places. One of them is on the chest and the other one is like above in the center.

If that's trying to make the round cocoon, they did a really, really bad job of

[lethal burrow]

they found a lot of worm dudes to be vault keepers, and they sure are a lot of identical underworkers.

[lilac hedge]

It is a bad design but i see the intention

[twin dragon]

why?

[lethal burrow]

I think the intention is for the thing that looks like it has things that are supposed to look like eyes and is sort of shaped like a head to be the place with the head goat and the thing on the chest is just supposed to be the cocoon without it allegedly weirdly sort of connecting with a big weird gap thing to make the whole cocoon even though the two parts don't look like it together

[lilac hedge]

Like if you put his head to the front it would connect uth the lower part idk

[lethal burrow]

They think the part on the chest and the head part are supposed to be connected to make a single design

[frosty gate]

It still doesn't explain the lack of eye holes

[lilac hedge]

Im just having visions

[lethal burrow]

But they didn't put the head in the front though

[lethal burrow]

what do you mean? Do you not see the plenty of choir bugs with their faces hidden covered by sheets?

This is an established thing with the choir

[twin dragon]

They are connected well enough doe

[frosty gate]

Sheets, not a full metal helmet

[lethal burrow]

Yes, I did say sheets and not a full helmet you're correct

I'm also not saying the little ones are also conductors

What's your point?

[twin dragon]

what is being discussed

[frosty gate]

You can look through fabric, not through metal

[lethal burrow]

Whether this is where the conductors head is

[lethal burrow]

I never said they could look through it though

[twin dragon]

I mean it could and should be

No reason to think otherwise

[lethal burrow]

I think it's extremely likely that's the intention

[lethal burrow]

oh, I can think of a reason... if you want the old pendant to be a conductor

[twin dragon]

Though the "head" part seems too small to fit proportionally

[lilac hedge]

Idk bro look up more sprites of the unravelled

[edgy nebula]

i think the conductors are actually voltvyrms and they wiggle through the music note thing on the top of the head and see through there

[twin dragon]

what's your point

[lethal burrow]

Proportions very widely between the bugs of both games, but I think stylistically the smaller head makes the body seem more imposing, which emphasizes the size of the conductors which is prominently mentioned a couple times as a characteristic of them

[twin dragon]

Fair

[lethal burrow]

In the other sprites, it appears equally likely to be their head also

[twin dragon]

The unravelled isn't a rlly good example because it's a bunch of silk

[lethal burrow]

it's not about the physicality of the body anyways though it's about the head thing on top, and that is a solid piece of metal that the unravelled has nothing to do with

[twin dragon]

Like ALL of that lower segment should be gone if we're talking about a normal bug

[twin dragon]

It doesn't tell us anything about the head

[lethal burrow]

I mean, I think it tells us something about the head given the look of it

[twin dragon]

You could take a look at ballador's corpse

Also, poor guy ballador seems to have been literally RIPPED IN HALF

[lethal burrow]

I am not becoming less convinced that the thing at the top is supposed to be a place for the head

[lilac hedge]

Shi they did him bad

[twin dragon]

I mean there's no reason to think otherwise

[frosty gate]

Then how do they look at things?

[twin dragon]

how do judges see

It's most likely fabric/lens

[tepid mountain]

This might not be definitive, but the speaker on the conductor statue in the elevator room in Clockwork is positioned under the the metal piece. Just like the speakers on the other statues for the architect and vault keeper.

[lethal burrow]

Oh yeah, and the eyes glow on that. if they weren't supposed to be eyes, then I wonder why they're glowing like the eyes with the other ones

[frosty gate]

You raise a fair point, how the fuck do they see

[twin dragon]

Lens

[lethal burrow]

also, I never said the conductors could see that's a different thing too

[edgy nebula]

honestly for being a group of 3 percieved assholes, ballador and romino seem like pretty chill guys

[tepid mountain]

Why would they put it right in front of the conductors face, and not the others?

[edgy nebula]

maybe mizello just an asshole

[frosty gate]

They have to see

[twin dragon]

Uhh, i don't really think there would be a reason for them to NOT see shit

[frosty gate]

They're probably still not good

[twin dragon]

all of them are assholes

[lethal burrow]

other choir people have their face covered I don't know it's not that much of a logical leap.

It's certainly at least 100 times less of a logical leap than saying it's not actually their heads

[ember gull]

shaw

[twin dragon]

See-through fabric

It's just so easy to answer

[lethal burrow]

I am absolutely willing to believe that I don't have strong opinions on how they see or if they see

[frosty gate]

The Judges and the Conductor's dont look like fabric

[lethal burrow]

They also don't look like iron, but that's apparently what they are for armour

[twin dragon]

Yeah but there's still an outline

I'd bet for them being lens

[twin dragon]

Deadass, people trying to theorize that old penitent was a conductor

[lethal burrow]

lumble has a higher chance of being a conductor because at least he's also in the blasted steps

like the mantle

[frosty gate]

I still think it's plausible and not that big of a stretch out of all things honestly

[lilac hedge]

Lumble?

[lethal burrow]

Old penitent conductor theory spawned out of nowhere and it makes no sense and refuses to die

[lethal burrow]

The lucky

[lilac hedge]

That guy is a pilgrim bro

[edgy nebula]

i find it weird how we never see any covetous pilgrim npcs, honestly a missed opportunity

[lethal burrow]

Old pen is probably the character with one of the least chances of being a conductor out of every character in the game

[lethal burrow]

yes indeed

[floral oak]

Still confused

[lethal burrow]

he is an NPC in the blasted steps

[lilac hedge]

So uh, why is he theorized to be a conductor if hes just some pilgrim in blasted steps

[stoic moth]

dude in pilgrims rest?

[lethal burrow]

he's not.

Thankfully

[edgy nebula]

is there a covetous pilgrim there?? that you can talk to? or are you talking abotu mort

this is who i mean, one o these guys

[lilac hedge]

Nah

[stoic moth]

OHHHH the enemy

[lethal burrow]

You can loot these guys for the pilgrim garb quest by the way they look funny naked

eight years development time ass sprites

[stoic moth]

i thought you just meant like
greedy pilgrims

[floral oak]

LoL 😆 why he flying

[frosty gate]

It's a huge guy with a top tier singing voice, better than any other character we hear. I wont' 100% he is Romino, but I will keep it like a Maybe card

[edgy nebula]

this bum

[floral oak]

I feel bad for him

[edgy nebula]

man why does th bilewater one have so much hp what the hell

[stoic moth]

mr big and greedy

[frosty gate]

And it might be me, but the Old P's song, the beggining at least, sounds a bit like the Conductor's Melody

[lethal burrow]

His singing voice isn't that great.

And him being big is hardly anything, we shouldn't focus on size we should focus on proportions, otherwise vog and forge daughter are conductors too 💀

[lethal burrow]

I think I heard Gaster's theme in there as well

[frosty gate]

Oh fuck off, Star's rubbing off on you

[frosty gate]

"Isn't that great" brother he sings amazingly who are you listening

[lethal burrow]

OK, OK sorry but seriously though if you're gonna make a claim like that at least like provide something like sync up the music or just provide two audio clips together I don't know you can't just say stuff be prepared to back it up

[edgy nebula]

skynx has the best singing voice

music to my ears

[lethal burrow]

Squirms have the best singing voice, obviously

[frosty gate]

I was gonna make one earlier, but the topic faded and i got distracted

[stoic moth]

Idk guys I think you are missing the most obvious secret conductor

great gourmand

[lethal burrow]

nothing is stopping you

except for the moderator, they'll delete your message

[tepid mountain]

Also about the eye/lens thing, Judges and the Last Judge have the same thing going on. It really could just be lenses that TC didn’t color differentiate.

[edgy nebula]

can we discuss the crustcrag needolin dialogue

[lethal burrow]

the mods... they don't like expressions of humanity, some people are scared of things they don't understand, and they are very different from humans

[tepid mountain]

Unless we assume that Judges just don’t see?

[lethal burrow]

Why not I can believe it

[edgy nebula]

because like, holy

[frosty gate]

Then again, my claim isn't definitive, none of my theories are.
I will never claim something is 100% true, but I like to think openly about the posibilities
I don't think there's no chance Old P is Romino, but I don't think it's more than a 50% chance

[stoic moth]

they did surgery on a crab

[unique canopy]

Coral hulk with a dense shell, bred to immense size by the Citadel's Memorium.
Nature distorted... This bug was born tiny and mild. The Citadel deformed it in futile hope it may sustain.

[tepid mountain]

I’m trying to support your point about the conductors head piece. 😭 The conductors can see through the top part because those eye circles are lenses.

Someone mentioned that the conductors wouldn’t be able to see if that’s where the head was.

[edgy nebula]

Water's source... hidden... lost...

this line is very weird

not only do crustcrawlers not appear in modern day karak which muddies up the timeline even more, but we never see any real mention of what couldve happened to karak's water aside from this

[frosty gate]

Wtf was a Crustcrawler again

[lethal burrow]

I think it is less likely than a randomly chosen other character being a conductor because having no evidence is at least more than having evidence against it

[stoic moth]

presumably kidnapped while karak was still wet

[edgy nebula]

the tiny crab coral guys you find in the coral tower in the dream

[lethal burrow]

I was being genuine at this point

[unique canopy]

Interesting that crustcrawlers don't have needolin dialogue, but still sing to it. Implying the crustcrags attained slightly higher intelligence through the Citadel's experiments.

[edgy nebula]

makes karak's timeline even more confusing and we really dont get any other mention of what coulde happened to karak's water aside from the crustcrags

[edgy nebula]

yeah, really weird

[frosty gate]

The Karak water source thing is so weird honestly

[unique canopy]

We know there is some water at the bottom of the Slab, with the crust biome

[lethal burrow]

I see you're writing in teachers archives vat tube symbols

[frosty gate]

Because it was definitely the Citadel

[edgy nebula]

might not have been

[unique canopy]

And of course it's right next to Mt. Fay with all the snow, ice, and pure water up there

[frosty gate]

It was! One of the few damn things I can say for certain, had to open the game to check though

[edgy nebula]

khann mentions pale light in his needolin dialogue and the entire plot of the old hearts quest is to go into memories from before gms

[silk dirge]

ok this is pretty good

[edgy nebula]

we wouldve also see more citadel interference or something explaining, like with the citadel bugs attacking nyleth, which we dont

[lethal burrow]

i'm really tired so it straight up just looks like you're highlighting random words to me and it's really funny as a shit post idea,

[unique canopy]

Not from before GMS, but when the last successors of those powers were at their peak, which is when they were resisting either GMS or the Citadel

[frosty gate]

But we do see ducts

Now, I don't get those ducts though

Karak is a shit show of lore overall, because nothing fits

[edgy nebula]

ducts was explicitly explained to be destroyed by the citadel, karak wasnt, it's weird

[frosty gate]

Wait wdym

[edgy nebula]

we have khann mentioning gms, the plot, some nyleth lore contrasting with karak lore implying karak fell pre-citadel, but we also have citadel architecture in karak and the slab, aswell as crustcrags in the memorium, which is weird because they arent in karak now

[edgy nebula]

it was muddied up and putrified by the citadel

we see alot of mentions of that, but we see no mentions of karak by the citadel i dont think

[frosty gate]

Oh but that's the waste disposal

[lethal burrow]

Where are you getting that pale lady has clairvoyance though

[edgy nebula]

karak js weird as shit but i stand firm in it falling pre-citadel

[frosty gate]

The Karak Ducts had to be getting clean water into the city

The Bilewater ones pass the dirty water

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, I called her pale lady. The game called the pale king the white worm whatever they're interchangeable I don't care I'm tired.

Shut up

[edgy nebula]

there are many water sources in pharloom, mt fay, bilewater, putrified ducts, it's likely alot of water was taken from those

we also get no info on where the water comes from, so we cant say anything for sure, of course there's also karak being under mt fay, so the water couldve been frozen somehow

[frosty gate]

It's very well stated that Bilewater was were they dumped the dirt

[unique canopy]

Getting the clean water should be obvious. Again, Mt. Fay is right there with plenty of Citadel architecture, and clean water is under the Slab. So logically it would make sense if they passed clean water from Mt. Fay to the Citadel, with the source into Karak being dammed up so the Citadel uses it instead.

[frosty gate]

Not where they took the water

[lethal burrow]

Is petrified duct even functional like is it even used in the current day or not?

[edgy nebula]

still, we dont know where the water came from, we dont even know if karak died from the lack of water because of how vague the lore is

[lethal burrow]

I think it's fair to say that it dried up because of the water somehow

[frosty gate]

The "Karak Ducts" i mention are the ones in the background of the Bridge that connects the Slab with the Citadel. What I don't understand why the fuck are they connected to the slab, unless they go from the Slab to Karak since they're close, very close.

[lethal burrow]

whether you believe that it was their conquering that made the water dry up or the water drying up, led to the conquering is unclear, one allows for the other, and the other results in the one so

[lethal burrow]

@vivid kernel this is the one thing I'm curious about I would enjoy it if you were to acknowledge you say something I guess I don't know

[edgy nebula]

do you have a screenshot of these

[frosty gate]

Nope, unfortunately, I went there the other day but didn't take a screenshot

[lethal burrow]

you should probably check that because I'm I'm very sure it's not in any of the games

And it's an easy thing to point out to make sure that someone doesn't have to say anything about the rest of what you said which sucks because you're like exactly right and people are gonna try to say you're wrong so it's probably good to build up your Palisade and then all that

[edgy nebula]

damn

[tepid mountain]

Here?

[edgy nebula]

those seem to be walkways

[lethal burrow]

I have no clue why there's not snow falling on here

[frosty gate]

Yes

I also found a screenshot on the wiki

[frosty gate]

Now check the Memorium side

[edgy nebula]

possibly just walkways, they dont prove much

[frosty gate]

They're not! If we go to the Memorium we can see that those are the ducts connecting the citadel to PD, we literally walk on one

These go into the ground

[frosty gate]

Nothing seems to be on the other side

[edgy nebula]

well then why are they there if they werent filtering water from the ducts

[tepid mountain]

They are different than the bridge we walk on to get to the Slab.

[frosty gate]

... To throw the waste into the ducts

One goes in from the left, the other one goes out from the right

[edgy nebula]

that's weird

also we still dont see any citadel interference in the coral tower

which is where the water was coming from in the first place

[frosty gate]

That is what bothers me

[silk dirge]

there is that one bench in karak

[frosty gate]

I have no answer to that, but I fully belive those are ducts

[edgy nebula]

could just be taking water from mt. fay like i theorized

[frosty gate]

Yeah but very far from the Tower

[frosty gate]

Yet we also don't see tubes in mt fay

[edgy nebula]

khann was probably dead by then since we see a body

[edgy nebula]

🤷 atleast we see citadel things in mt. fay

[frosty gate]

For a while I thought that maybe Karak use to own the slab, but It still gets me nowhere

[edgy nebula]

it's also in general possible the coral in the slab and in the bench was made by khann in death, since it's partly implied he's still alive

i love karak, best area in the game, but we still dont know if he died pre-citadel or post-citadel, or even had a general decline

please team cherry one lore tablet is all we need

[silk dirge]

just one more lore tablet

[lethal burrow]

depends if you think they silk that was around at the same time grandmother silk was awake

[edgy nebula]

one more choral commandment, one more needolin dialogue, one more lore tablet, either is good please give us something

[silk dirge]

theres always dlc

[edgy nebula]

i think it's likely khann was referring to gms

[frosty gate]

I mean we surely will get a DLC with info of the past, we need it

[edgy nebula]

my theory is

water came from mt. fay
gms ordered the weavers to divert the natural lava, freezing the river
khann died

[frosty gate]

GMS ordering is a bit of an extra, the weavers could've done it themselves

[edgy nebula]

it's the most plausible to me because of some evidence we get but we also get alot of evidence for the contrary, it's frustrating

mainly crustcrags, crustcrags are ruining me

[edgy nebula]

fair yeah

also karak water has a very bluish hue, does it not? pale lake water is more white like the high halls water

[frank dove]

Supports?

Or just caved in, that is very likely

[edgy nebula]

this is veerrryyy blue water

[lethal burrow]

I don't think any of this speaks to future site, though more just worldly knowledge of the present.

It's like how random characters can tell hornet is a god for some reason.

[pale narwhal]

to be fair it is just a memory of water
might not have looked so vibrant in the real world

[tepid mountain]

Clairvoyance doesn't necessarily mean future sight. Just sight outside of normal sensory contact.

[edgy nebula]

there's not much to imply it wasnt as vibrant tbf

[lethal burrow]

yeah, but we have no reason to think it's incorrect though

[pale narwhal]

the clovers growing around the green princes corpse are a duller green than Lost Verdania

[lethal burrow]

fair enough, but I would at least change the phrasing to be as vague so people don't get the wrong interpretation anyway maybe it's just me, but that phrase makes me think of sears and divination and prophecy, especially after mentioning the foresight of the wyrm

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, but like there, it's specifically pointed out

[frank dove]

Yeah bc the lighting

And they just grew

[lethal burrow]

extrasensory abilities, perhaps?

[edgy nebula]

also karak water is very possibly magical

[lethal burrow]

definitely has better connotations for readability

anyway, I agree with pretty much every other thing you said, thank God somebody thinks pale beings work the same way I do more or less

[cunning crag]

Did the Citadel dry out the Coral Forest?

[edgy nebula]

we were just talking about this

we have no clue

[cunning crag]

Ok

[edgy nebula]

there's evidence that points to it and away from it

[lethal burrow]

Yes, they did.

If they did it before or after, defeating them is up for debate

Well, actually hold on the citadel specifically? Depends if you believe it was around well grandmother silk was awake.

but old heart stuff and the shaman's definitely make it clear that grandmother silk is behind the three lane hearts waning in power

[frosty gate]

I mean the fact that they go to PD make those look like ducts

[cunning crag]

If my understanding of the abyss is correct it is everywhere but deep underground or only below kingdoms?

[edgy nebula]

deep underground everywhere probably

[cunning crag]

It's too pixely

[twin dragon]

Isn't the palestag like.. not a thing

Iirc it only exists within GP's memory

Basically if i think of a dragon

[lethal burrow]

I find this all very correct, but I also get the feeling people are just gonna make jokes about team cherry making white people gods and they're also just gonna pretend you're stupid and say that not every instance of light is connected...

But you're cooking

[cunning crag]

It's a Myth but the Virginia Bugs believe in it it's probably true.

[lethal burrow]

That's a sizeable extrapolation

[twin dragon]

"Myth made reality" something something

[lethal burrow]

well, it's not a myth. The green prince killed something that was more special than a regular stag

[twin dragon]

did he really kill it though? afaik the two princes met hunting for this one legendary stag

[lethal burrow]

I recall them speaking how they killed it, but I am not sure so the dialogue is better to be found

[twin dragon]

Verdaning it so good

[craggy smelt]

it's a myth to Hornet in that it's a story she is hearing from the Green Prince, but he speaks of it as something that was real - he and his partner hunted it
it's 'made real in memory' because she's facing it in his memory
given that White Lady seems to actually speak to Hornet directly in her memory, who knows how 'real' the Palestag we can fight actually is

[edgy nebula]

who's the smartest sk-lore regular, i wanna ask them if they think karak fell pre or post citadel and see their answer

[lilac hedge]

Thats why in th abyss scene the pk is so fucking bright

[cunning crag]

Very important question where the deepnest they get so much copper !

[lethal burrow]

uhhh, there's a list of people I can tell you I would not recommend asking and then there's everyone else who is probably good

[sterile jacinth]

Not saying I’m the smartest and this is mostly based on speculation but I think khann fell as the citadel was being built

[edgy nebula]

imagine how many vessels failed the climb cause they saw pk up there and got blinded

[lilac hedge]

They got flashbanged💔

[twin dragon]

Ash baby ahh

[edgy nebula]

very possible, he couldve very well had a long decline, we just dont really know

[edgy nebula]

just whoever you think is the smartest/most adept with lore

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah their death seems drawn out

[lethal burrow]

The problem is that that is weird later not something that actually needs you to actually know all that much lore

Like the people with lots of knowledge are probably not the people who would be the ones that would fill that position

[sterile jacinth]

I think the citadel was built as a trap and as it was being built maybe it stopped their river and Gms was trapped after Karak had already fallen

[frank dove]

Oh but there is no space inside for anything

I thought there were also pipes that do that

I think there are both

Check the ending cutscenes

[frosty gate]

Which ones

[frigid belfry]

my answer would be a mix of both, it completely collapsed post citadel his needolin dialogue says that their fall was (at the very least) partially caused by gms, and that they were the last to fall, meaning both the skarr and verdania fell before them, now what defines post-citadel, as in when the weavers left, when they reigned?

Needolin dialogue of the corpse of Khann: "Now none to resist... But us... Alone... against the pale light... "

[sterile jacinth]

I think Karak and it’s fall predates the Skarr kingdom and probably Verdania

[lilac hedge]

@edgy nebula

[edgy nebula]

gold citadel, basically either caused by gms or by the conductors

[twin dragon]

Didn't Green prince 2 make a deal WITH the citadel?

[edgy nebula]

ooohhhhhhh ok

[sterile jacinth]

Gold citadel is post weavers I think

[twin dragon]

Like the sole reason of why cogwork dancers exist

[lilac hedge]

Get it get it

[edgy nebula]

@edgy nebula did karak fall pre or post citadel

[sterile jacinth]

Yea. They also don’t mention gms at all

[frigid belfry]

using conductors as a basis for the "gold" citadel, its def pre

[lethal burrow]

did you used to have the khann pfp btw

[edgy nebula]

yes

[twin dragon]

So verdania must've fallen later

[sterile jacinth]

Same with the Skarr. They banded together it seems either right before or right after the haunting started

[frigid belfry]

the order of control was GMS-> Weavers -> Conductors, Khann calls his kingdom the last to fall, indicating the Skarr and Verdania fell before

[twin dragon]

Skarr didn't fall until very recently

[lethal burrow]

@sterile jacinth @cedar skiff @muted lantern are my nominations

[edgy nebula]

khann saying only us to resist may be ego talking, since we know no other rulers actually fought against gms

[lilac hedge]

No metal?