sk-lore

[random aspen]

she turns into mush without silk sustaining her

[feral inlet]

I assume if she pushes herself probably yea

[random aspen]

she will die naturally

[feral inlet]

Prob kinda similar to phantom where they can’t do much probably without risking it all

[atomic widget]

One muck maggot and its over bro

[random aspen]

if lace could survive on her own she would leave pharloom and never come back

the only reason she stays is because she needs gms to keep her alive

gms made her so she cant betray her

[feral inlet]

Leaving pharloom more danherous than just staying there tbh

For lace atleast

The exits are in very dangerous spots

[random aspen]

with gms no it would be far better to just leave

[atomic widget]

Nah I believe she'd have some sort of stockholm syndrome situation with her mom

[feral inlet]

I thought she disliked gms, didn’t she help free us at beginning of the game?

[atomic widget]

she does hate her but she still does want her attention

[random aspen]

im saying

[feral inlet]

The butterflies are laces right?

[random aspen]

in a place with with gms in it lace would want to leave that place

if lace didnt need gms to sustain

[atomic widget]

She could leave

But I don't think she would

[random aspen]

just go watch a youtube lore video 🥀

[atomic widget]

If her mother was still around at least

[atomic widget]

She does control them

[muted lantern]

She controls them but they are made in whiteward

[feral inlet]

Tyty

[muted lantern]

out of disabled or old pilgrims

[feral inlet]

Yea thought so

[muted lantern]

the silk siblings seem to have control over them

[atomic widget]

She more or less sings to them

[random aspen]

or the ones with failed surgeries

[atomic widget]

Its got to do with music

[random aspen]

they probably used healthy pilgrims just to experiment

[atomic widget]

Hornet does the same when playing the needolin to them

[feral inlet]

It’s prob similar to how we do the needolin to show path thing

They control them with music

[atomic widget]

Would lace be more biological or have robotic implants, like a cyborg

[feral inlet]

She’s legit just silk no?

[random aspen]

silk gets controlled by song in silksong whaaat

[random aspen]

shes just silk and air

[muted lantern]

I think shes just a black skeletal spool structure with silk spun around it, forming clothing like shapes.

shes more of a golem than anything really

or humonculous

[random aspen]

100% homunculus

[atomic widget]

Wouldn't her head prove she has an exoskeleton type of thing underneath?

[sly pebble]

i think she is a mushroom cause she looks like a mushroom

[random aspen]

gms has a black body covereed in silk so something like that

[muted lantern]

I think its like gms where she has a solid black body underneath the threads, it seems like her body is a spool that thread is spun around to form what looks to be her clothes, we can see with gms without her silk in the abyss her poofy shoulders vanish, so the silk is more like clothes than her body.

[random aspen]

words ever said

[feral inlet]

Oooh I see

[muted lantern]

Its like gms, where the silk is wrapped around an internal spool structure, we can see gm's bare body without the silk in the abyss and its the same shape as her but without the more clothing looking structures like poofy shoulders.

so assumedly laces leg things are like poofy pants

[atomic widget]

Thats what I was thinking

[muted lantern]

which is in line with lace being a fencer, as historical fencers often had that sort of poofy looking pants things

[atomic widget]

I think thats just a way to maximise the amount of silk she can have

[muted lantern]

I wonder if her head thing is supposed to be a hat or hair

[random aspen]

❤️

[atomic widget]

Probably more silk

[muted lantern]

pretty much

[random aspen]

her thighs are FAKE

[atomic widget]

Insane build btw

[muted lantern]

though she might have the head spikeys like phantom and gms under the head thing

[muted lantern]

basically hornets body but even more scrawny

[random aspen]

honestly i drew that without thinking idk lmao

[atomic widget]

Hornet's got a fat belly and scrawny arms meanwhile lace has fat limbs and a skinny chest

[muted lantern]

Actually

gms might still have the pointy shoulders without her silk

though id still argue its meant to resemble clothes

[atomic widget]

Thats her arm I think

[muted lantern]

but you can still see the point of her shoulder overlapping over the hair

[atomic widget]

She's put together like legos

[muted lantern]

so laces body might resemble more closely to her silk body? it could be like a second layer of skin in that case

though still again i think meant to resemble a fencing outfit

[atomic widget]

I can see it in more of a character design standpoint

Thats what Ari's though process would've likely been

[fierce yew]

Is the embrace the void ending of hk what leads to the secret act 3 ending? Ive gotten both but not sure how everything connects

[muted lantern]

It could work as either embrace the void or dream no more, its purposfully vague as to which one was the canon ending

[fierce yew]

thats what i was thinking since i saw some post on reddir about somebody saying that the embrace the void ending is the cannon one and silksong proves it but i saw nothing to prove that and a ton of ppl were saying silksong didnt prove ant of the endings-and people shared theories about the sealed siblings ending and how it could be cannon, but i was just checking because its reddit

[muted lantern]

honestly, whats interesting is even the black part of gms's body might be made out of silk too? like it looks like where her arm got torn off theres silk beneath it?

gms's anatomy is really confusing

[atomic widget]

Na I think thats the silk on the outer layer

[river geyser]

I never really understood the embrace the void being the “proper” one because doesn’t the knight just get absorbed into the shade lord? At least in dream no more he’s just there with all the void buddies

[fierce yew]

seales siblings is just the endinf i found the hardest to think is cannon bevause silksong but there was some pretry convincing evidence (btw sry if my spelling is bad i have dyslexia)

[atomic widget]

She still has some strands remaining on her body

[dire lynx]

the knight IS the shade lord

[muted lantern]

but she also like, turns into silk when hornet absorbs her

[solar tapir]

a bit strange even, a human like creature in a bug world

[muted lantern]

but i guess that could be because of binding

[solar tapir]

but she is human like only for us, players tho

[dire lynx]

'sealed siblings' is absolutely not canon, same for 'the hollow knight' its really only the two variants of 'embrace the void' and 'dream no more'

[fierce yew]

thats what i was thinking

[atomic widget]

Yeah, out of every character in hollow knight, GMS is just straight up a humanoid

[river geyser]

Yeah ig, but dnm makes more sense to me bc they’re there commanding the void, and they still appear in that form

[dire lynx]

we see the shade lord

[river geyser]

Why are her legs fused together though, it’s kinda cursed

[atomic widget]

Humanoid, not fully human

[river geyser]

Yeah i might be misremembering stuff i played it like 4 years ago

[dire lynx]

? im talking abt SotV ending

[atomic widget]

Could be because she's a higher being, and higher being are meant to be unexplainable or something beyond what a bug could conceptually think of

So there could be more gods out there that look more human then bug

But pale king does also exist, so idk

[river geyser]

I mean the hk endings and stuff like the big guy with all the eyes for pantheon and all the little shades in the radiance fight

[dire lynx]

yeah, what about them?

[river geyser]

Yeah mb wording isn’t wording

[agile surge]

so uh, does anyone else think that lifeblood blooming out of control specifically in act 3 is suspicious?

like, this could just be an arbitrary benchmark to show the passage of time, but this is also the second time we've seen a large and notable quantity of lifeblood be acompanied by void

[solar tapir]

and already has a wyrm, root, humanoid...

fundamentally different creatures

I think higher beings just a mystery in general

[atomic widget]

Pale beings and higher beings are different no?

[solar tapir]

the same

[foggy fractal]

some higher beings are pale some not
and not all pale beings are higher beings

[lethal burrow]

They are different

[dire lynx]

all pale beings are higher beings, not all higher beings are pale

[lethal burrow]

Pale stag is not a higher being

In my personal interpretation at least

[sweet shale]

hb of annoyance

[lethal burrow]

idk there's no rule that says higher beings have to be powerful I guess

[dire lynx]

pale stag isnt real

at least not how we see it

[lethal burrow]

Green Prince just got high and didn't actually hunt anything. He was just tripping out.

[dire lynx]

not what i said

[solar tapir]

what a pale being that is not higher

[lethal burrow]

Being serious though, I don't know why teamer would call it that and put it in the game if it wasn't meant to matter or be anything
paleness it's too specific and important of a thing

[solar tapir]

some example

[lethal burrow]

lace is called pale child and pale one, and is pale, so I think it's fair to say they are a pale being

[dire lynx]

are you gonna argue for the pale lurker just because pale is in the name?

[atomic widget]

Many things in hollow knight are described to be pale though right?

[lethal burrow]

they are pale in the same way the pale court is pale. They're called pale in relation to something else. The pale king.

Pale stag has no such ex explanation

[atomic widget]

pale could jsut mean holy

[lethal burrow]

Like what?

[atomic widget]

or divine

Like pale ore being called pale ore could mean that its really strong

[lethal burrow]

then why aren't all higher beings as described as pale?

[dire lynx]

its described as being touched by pale light

[solar tapir]

maybe it just a relation to her as pale being's child

[dire lynx]

probably elevated like the weavers

[atomic widget]

Im saying it could be applied in that manner

[lethal burrow]

You're just making that up though, there's nothing that indicates that

[dire lynx]

"Here, the trail of the stag touched pale..."

[solar tapir]

hornet is half pale too, but it means that she is half god

[dire lynx]

my bad for making up dialogue
/sarc

[solar tapir]

and lace is god's creation

hmmm

[lethal burrow]

ty

[atomic widget]

higher beings could just mean beings that ascended to a higher form of divinity through other means

not just through being pale

There multiple ways to achieve godhood

[lethal burrow]

i'm just gonna say it pale beings is probably not a formal title it's just a description

They do be being that is pale, so they are a pale being

[solar tapir]

I always thought it was just some kind of subspecies

idk

subspecies of higher being i mean

[lethal burrow]

do you think that the white worm wyrm touched by some pale being?

[atomic widget]

Perhaps pale beings are the result of a higher being

[lethal burrow]

there seems to be wyrms that there's non-pale worms so who was the one that ascended the pale king? And does he not count as a God because he was ascended allegedly?

[atomic widget]

Like a god of purity

[foggy fractal]

yeah we're not given any concrete rules on it

[atomic widget]

And they're kinda like its avatars

[nocturne vortex]

is palestag a pale being?

[dire lynx]

no

[olive quartz]

unclear but probably not

[lethal burrow]

Is pale King a pale being

[dire lynx]

i think pale beings are born as such

[solar tapir]

i doubt

i remember White lady's line about first light

[dawn sluice]

what if they're called pale because of how white they are

[foggy fractal]

also circling back on that
"You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."
being pale, my kind, Hornet is a pale being, not really suprising given that her father is a pale being

[lethal burrow]

Genuinely a preferable answer

[solar tapir]

maybe that mean something

[atomic widget]

It could be descriptive

[dawn sluice]

itd make sense considering how rare a shiny pale thing would be in that world

if they were golden they'd be called gilded beings

[atomic widget]

They are known to be agents of great change

[nocturne vortex]

perhaps, idk if its canon, but in chinese gms is roughly translated to pale white mother, which is well, she is white

[dire lynx]

shes also called pale monarch

[nocturne vortex]

ya and that

there are also pale nails and stuff, which are like apex weapons, so it could be that pale just means apex

[tidal marsh]

what the hell was the point of the cogwork dancers?

[lethal burrow]

I think being pale is just like being albino or like a shiny Pokémon, like 90% of the time a pale being is just an extra powerful special variant of something that already exists, therefore when a pale being is a God, it's an extra special God

[nocturne vortex]

it seems they are protecting the cradle but I might be wrong

[lethal burrow]

protection, I guess

[nocturne vortex]

doesnt really explain how few gods we end up seeing in game arent pale

[dire lynx]

most higher beings we meet arent pale, there have only been three

[lethal burrow]

wym a majority aren't pale

[solar tapir]

for me it still just different kind or subspecies

we also have black wyrm btw

[lethal burrow]

Void worm Rain World reference

[dire lynx]

its blackwyrm, all one word

[nocturne vortex]

isnt radiance pale I could be wrong

[lethal burrow]

She could be, but it's not confirmed

[dire lynx]

no only white lady, pale king and grandmother silk

[atomic widget]

God of light and dreams

[lethal burrow]

She's not made by a pale being and she doesn't seem to be a special variant of something that's pre-existing so I doubt she's pale

[olive quartz]

you could say the same about the pale king

[nocturne vortex]

thats still 3 of like 4-5, not as rare as albino

[lethal burrow]

he's a pale wyrm

[solar tapir]

She is not

[olive quartz]

we have never seen another wyrm

[dire lynx]

we know they make a species tho

[solar tapir]

i also thought that way, but the Radiance is just essence god

[dry bridge]

Pale I think relates to a god having some degree of influence on soul in particular. Pale king, white lady, silk, and maybe radiance?
While on the other hand youve got gods like unn and nightmare heart that dont have that connection to soul

[solar tapir]

not pale

[atomic widget]

Godseekers gotta pull a god battle royale or smthn

[lethal burrow]

but we know it's a notable enough characteristic to specify. You don't call it the kingdom of the white worm if other worms are also white that's not a very good specifier. Also, there's a black wyrms which implies non-pale wyrms, even if it's not real it's still implies that within the world.

[olive quartz]

we have no clue what the blackwyrm line is supposed to mean lmao

[edgy nebula]

we dont know what the blackwyrm was, it's also the blackwyrm, not the black wyrm

[olive quartz]

anyway you could just as easily say the radiance is a pale moth

[lethal burrow]

I would assume it means there was some sort of worm that was black

[dire lynx]

bardoon and mr mushroom talk about wyrms in plural

[nocturne vortex]

wouldnt it just be a normal black wyrm

[lethal burrow]

you could, but the moths are luma flies

[olive quartz]

what is a normal wyrm

[foggy fractal]

is radiance described to be pale ?

[lethal burrow]

A worm that's not pale presumably it's some sort of beige color. I don't know.

[lethal burrow]

nope

[dire lynx]

no

[solar tapir]

no

[atomic widget]

Light and pale are two different things

[olive quartz]

okay so if the pale king is a pale worm (as in, wormways worm) then the radiance is a pale moth

[dry bridge]

Pale king is a wyrm not a worm

[lethal burrow]

it was a typo. The radiance has never called a moth.

[atomic widget]

They can interpolate but they are of different natures

[olive quartz]

...the radiance is pretty explicitly a moth

[dawn sluice]

radiance: first moth, last moth

[sterile jacinth]

Rad created the moths

[olive quartz]

it is. the moth god. worshipped by moths.

it's a moth lmfao

[lethal burrow]

ah so unn is a tree of course

[sterile jacinth]

It’s a moth to moths as a god is to us humans

[edgy nebula]

everything is a tree if you have the attitude

[sterile jacinth]

Not the same but made in her image

[olive quartz]

are yall seriously gonna argue TC did not intend for the radiance to be a moth

[olive quartz]

sure, but this is the same logic as calling the pale king a worm

[dawn sluice]

and now we watch
whatever this argument is

[lethal burrow]

I just said the radiance is never called a moth and you're disagreeing

[edgy nebula]

why are we even arguing on if the radiance is a moth or not, this is a useless agument

[sterile jacinth]

He’s a wyrm not a worm. Those are different

[edgy nebula]

it doesnt prove anything

[dire lynx]

nobody is calling PK a worm, bro

[edgy nebula]

grimm

[olive quartz]

okay and we see no other wyrms besides the one pale one

[dawn sluice]

is it conventional for wyrms to have foresight or is that a pale wyrm thing
are all wyrms pale, they seem to love creating kingdoms

[dire lynx]

i meant in the chat

[edgy nebula]

we dont know

[sterile jacinth]

Blackwyrm?

[lethal burrow]

other pale beings don't seem to have future vision so I assume it's wyrm stuff

[olive quartz]

we know literally nothing about the blackwyrm

[lethal burrow]

we know it's a black wyrm

[sterile jacinth]

Still presumably exists

[olive quartz]

it is a random piece of flavor text it is not meant to be a major lore reveal

[olive quartz]

we don't even know that lmfao, the 'blackwyrm' could be a location like a fortress or something

[lethal burrow]

We're not arguing it's a major reveal. We're just arguing. It has some significance in some form. If you're in the business of saying what was or wasn't intended to hold significance

[olive quartz]

the 'blackwyrm' could be the name for the giant corpse that currently houses the colosseum

[dawn sluice]

i mean it could be a "sum of its parts" thing where a normal wyrm might not have foresight and a "normal" pale being may not have foresight but a pale wyrm might have foresight

[dire lynx]

We know wyrms compose a species

"Don't mistake. I am not a wyrm... Ohrm... Too small, I am. Too many limbs. No foresight like those old things."

...Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall,
Till ages pass and kingdoms fall,

[edgy nebula]

i think the blackwyrm was a hole-in-the-wall chinese restaurant and the battle of the blackwyrm was the great knights and pk fighting against the health inspectors like that one episode of smiling friends

[olive quartz]

yes and we know moths compose a species

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah this

[dawn sluice]

so are all wyrms pale i wonder

[sterile jacinth]

Wyrms are not ok the same level as moths. I’d compare them more to weavers

[edgy nebula]

we dont know

[dawn sluice]

also did we run out of things to argue over

[olive quartz]

are you sure? seer is rather powerful with dream magic

[sterile jacinth]

Moths aren’t gods. They’re created by gods like the weavers but they are not gods like the wyrms

[dire lynx]

radiance made the moths, she cant have derived from something that didnt exist before she did

[olive quartz]

hell she invades another person's dream which we only ever see the spawn of pale beings do

[lethal burrow]

we can talk about why seer turns into a lumafly

[olive quartz]

thus the radiance is pale

[edgy nebula]

if we run out we can just return to the 3 evil sk-lore arguments that will not be named

[edgy nebula]

thatd just be for #hk-lore tbf

[atomic widget]

Couldn't she just manifist them out of pure essence? She could've just dreamt them into existence

[dawn sluice]

i wonder what caused wyrms to somehow evolve foresight and the instinct to make kingdoms
this is a species wide thing

[lethal burrow]

But then we couldn't talk about potential silk fly stuff that might be related

[dawn sluice]

what we're talking about right now is hk lore stuff

[olive quartz]

never confirmed that the radiance made the moths btw, just that they worshipped her

[dire lynx]

"They forsook the light that spawned them. Turned their backs to it... Forgot it even."

[olive quartz]

hmm... just like how the pale king didn't create his worshippers.... clearly the radiance must be pale

[edgy nebula]

i assumed it tied into sk

[sterile jacinth]

Oh I thought it was the common consensus

[lethal burrow]

Well, it's the common consensus over at team Cherry and Adelaide

[olive quartz]

clearly representing that the radiance's pale light expanded their minds in the same way as the pale king's beacon

[dawn sluice]

let me get out the list of stuff we commonly argue

lace age
slab flies
retcons
green prince sibling thing
pronourns
pale being vs higher being creation thing
city of steel
hornet being a douche

[sterile jacinth]

Some of those are just Star

[edgy nebula]

you forgot hornet being an asshole (i dont count slab flies)

[sterile jacinth]

Also mostly just Star

[edgy nebula]

we should talk about the successors or something

or how moss druid became a successor

[sterile jacinth]

Successor? Wdym

[edgy nebula]

old heart, successor is just the better name for them

[echo trellis]

I love the royal waterways

[sterile jacinth]

Aaaah ok that’s cool.

I can see moss Druid becoming powerful

[sterile jacinth]

I think I like that place less than deepnest somehow

[edgy nebula]

royal waterways is scarier than deepnest lowkey

[dawn sluice]

what do you think is the pinnacle of power a FULL BLOODED mortal bug can achieve

through machinery, soul, silk, anything of the like

[sterile jacinth]

If we’re going off of Hornet standards binding a god

[dire lynx]

hornet isnt full mortal

her binding ability is from her divine side

[lethal burrow]

karm or khann

[sterile jacinth]

Yea

[dawn sluice]

(theoretical pinnacle)

[edgy nebula]

yeah khann or karm are the strongest we've seen bugs get mortal wise

[tough crater]

They look yummy

[edgy nebula]

id go like, a crazy ass silk/steel empowered khann fusion to be the strongest mortal bug

[lethal burrow]

well depends, you could argue bugs are stronger when they're void taken, but like I don't know does that count?

Same with being infected, and all that

[sterile jacinth]

If Karm or Kahnn messed with soul/silk they’d probably have a huge increase to their strength with the downside that they’d probably go crazy

[dawn sluice]

well becoming part of a hivemind technically makes you no longer mortal since you're (metaphysically) apart of the immortal body of something else

[dire lynx]

fighting skill of karmelita, soul mastery of the soul master and the environmental control of khann, durability of steel

[edgy nebula]

do we agree with this

[dawn sluice]

yes

but replace silk with soul

soul is much more free

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[sterile jacinth]

Extreme power with the cost of going insane

[dawn sluice]

not too bad

[edgy nebula]

khann with howling wraiths

[echo trellis]

Royal waterways has THE BEST ost

[dawn sluice]

now what if we used plasmiuim phial

[edgy nebula]

he does the coral attack where he blocks off the floor and if you go above him to pogo he just blasts your ass

[sterile jacinth]

Ooh more mind corruption

[dawn sluice]

actually nevermind

that connects you to another hivemind

[sterile jacinth]

Want to be under the influence of 2 gods??

[dawn sluice]

and hiveminds are off limits

[dawn sluice]

imagine he begins spamming DD iframes

[ashen snow]

whats the lore of lumble the lucky

[dire lynx]

gambler

[dawn sluice]

he got lucky and was named lumble until he lost his dice when he fumbled

[ashen snow]

thats tuff

[sterile jacinth]

His luck ran out

[muted lantern]

she looks a lot like one of these

[sterile jacinth]

Oh dear

[olive quartz]

mhm

[edgy nebula]

lets powerscale a little, physicality wise only, who do we think is the strongest successor

[craggy smelt]

she moff

[muted lantern]

funnily enough, the caterpillar for this species of moth looks just like marmu

[dire lynx]

no, its bardoon

[spark valve]

karmelita is the only one hornet comments on being a rival to her in skill so

[sterile jacinth]

Omg

[edgy nebula]

khann, karmelita, nyleth, green princes, or moss druid

[dire lynx]

silkmoth caterpillar

[sterile jacinth]

Kahnn

[craggy smelt]

moss druid, you don't even fight them because it would be hopeless

[edgy nebula]

makes sense, but i feel like many bosses are of similar skill to hornet, and i wouldnt be surprised if green princes or khann were of similar strength to her

there's a reason both of them were revered by their kingdoms

[spark valve]

they're all the strongest of their kingdoms presumably

karmelita's just built more different

[foggy fractal]

hello tammo

[edgy nebula]

all fun and games until the city of steel comes around with their comically large magnifying glass

[spark valve]

Something something magma bell

Pale ore heat shielding

[edgy nebula]

it's got a cooldown, you cant only take 1 mask of damage forever

theyll get you eventually

[spark valve]

Giant magnifying glass would clown on void real hard tho

[edgy nebula]

true, pk shouldve just used that

[spark valve]

Provided you found a bright enough light source to magnify

[spark valve]

Well he did

[foggy fractal]

insert that spongebob, patrick and planktin gif

[edgy nebula]

he simply filled a glass with lumaflies

[spark valve]

The abyss lighthouse has a reflecting disc behind it and a crystal lens

[edgy nebula]

oh, really?

[foggy fractal]

how the hell did pale king figure this out

is he smart ?

[spark valve]

it's a good setup

[edgy nebula]

cool honestly

[spark valve]

yeah it's a fun detail

[spark valve]

don't let hornet hear you say that

[foggy fractal]

haha thankfully Hornet is not real

and if she is I got starpengu

[spark valve]

(yet)

[edgy nebula]

probably a stupid question but what do you think the soul jars were for?

[spark valve]

maybe fuel for the lumaflies but they seem to still be alive after having not been fed for a long ass time so hard to really say

though they were also off and maybe therefore taking less energy

[foggy fractal]

we don't see any lumaflies die out though tbf we don't really know how that works anyway

[spark valve]

for a lot of things you can kind of assume menderbugs are doing maintenance

[edgy nebula]

yeah, the lumaflies also dont really turn off ever? presumably

[spark valve]

the quirrel comic sorta implies otherwise since he's surprised to see one alive iirc

[edgy nebula]

we dont see any off lumaflies

[spark valve]

like I said, menderbugs

[edgy nebula]

well, maybe they turn off when they die

[spark valve]

well yeah

[foggy fractal]

you got me fucked up dawg
I have to read through this comic now

[spark valve]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qK3pRKyEvdIlELbcwBrZBjmgJuLunxLH/view?usp=sharing

yes it's called first chapter no there aren't others

[foggy fractal]

lmao

[trail wagon]

Hey, everyone

[foggy fractal]

maybe after silksong we'll get chapter 2

[spark valve]

It’s after silksong

[muted lantern]

chapter 2 is where hornet finds quirrel in blue lake and shoots him in the head

[foggy fractal]

which part ? 7th page where he says how marvelous to the lumaflies in the cave ?

[trail wagon]

I just wanted to clarify, would it be okay if I copy a reddit post I wrote with my theory? It's... a lot ahhahaha

[spark valve]

sort of implies it could have not been

[trail wagon]

And also, just to be clear, do I HAVE TO include spoiler warning whenever I mention something that might be a spoiler? I think it's kinda inevidable in a lore channel ofc. I don't think there was anything about that mentioned in the rules explicitly

[foggy fractal]

no, this channel is all spoilers allowed

[trail wagon]

okay, sounds good

[foggy fractal]

for both games

[foggy fractal]

reads to me like he's just stating how long these things last

[trail wagon]

It's a reddit post I wrote, so it includes some background info

I've completed the game with 100% completion and opened the entire map, as far as I can tell. And there's one thing I've been thinking about constantly: where is the actual surface of Pharloom? Initially, I thought the surface begins somewhere around Greymoor (Screenshot 1). The reason for that was Greymoor having rain, as well as the fact that there's a pretty strong wind blowing at Blasted Steps, roughly on the same level. If we go up to the Sands of Karak, and even more so to Mount Fay, the wind becomes even stronger and the weather gets colder.

It all made sense in my head until I reached the last Mister Mushroom location in Act 3, while doing the Passing of the Age quest. After getting through the parkour section, you get to a new area called "Nameless Town" (Screenshot 2), where you can find the Surface Memento. This area felt very confusing to me personally. If we locate Nameless Town on the map, we see that it's literally the highest point we can possibly reach in the game (Screenshot 3). It's even higher than the Mount Fay's top, which is odd, since even the foot of Mount Fay and The Slab were high enough to have snow and freezing weather. You couldn't survive more than 10 seconds there without some source of heat. The other confusing thing is that the location of the Surface Memento implies we only reach the surface when we get to the literal highest point of the kingdom, which would, by extension, imply that the rest of the areas are underground.

In the original Hollow Knight, we already had the City of Tears, and it had a lot of similarities with Greymoor, including rain. As it turned out, this was because it was located under the Unn Lake, and the water from the lake would seep through the soil and basically rain down on the city. This got me thinking that maybe the reason Greymoor has rain is because of the same reason, but in this case it's Bilewater and mostly the Sinner's Road, since the majority of Greymoor is beneath it. It seemed logical, but there's a problem with this explanation: the water in both Sinner's Road and Bilewater is filled with Muckmaggots, and something seems to be making the water toxic. I believe Shakra mentions that the Bilewater structures suggest there was once pure water, but at some point it got poisoned, and all the creatures living there had to adapt to the new environment. Shakra says even the air in this area is toxic, which shows how strong the effect of the "infection" is. If you look at the color of the water, it becomes evident that it doesn't look anything like the rain in Greymoor at all. I feel like toxic rain would have some visible impact on Greymoor's environment, not to mention that it would likely force its inhabitants like mites and fluttermites to adapt to the pollution. We might assume the map doesn't account for how far apart the areas are located from each other on what would be considered a "depth" scale, which could explain why the infected water from the Sinner's Road doesn't end up in Greymoor - it's simply because it's not directly above it. Still, it feels more logical to me to draw the surface line where I originally did.

I don't understand how all the areas under Nameless Town could be underground, especially considering the windy zones and the literally freezing area with snow. I don't see any other logical explanation for why The Slab and Mount Fay would have such cold weather and snow. We did have a "snowy" biome in the first game, Kingdom's Edge, where the "snow" was actually particles from the decomposing body of the Wyrm. That was also the reason there was wind in the area, but it didn't actually affect the weather, especially not the temperature. Now, the placement of the Surface Memento doesn't inherently mean the surface begins exactly where we found it, but I also don't think it makes sense to place it so far from the actual surface, because at that point, it would be far above it, and it would be more of a "Kingdom's Peak Memento".

[lethal burrow]

pharloom seems to be a mountain.

[trail wagon]

sorry for the wall of text ahahha 😅

[humble peak]

that's not even a wall dude it's a cliffside

[spark valve]

everything is underground probably including nameless town

[lethal burrow]

[trail wagon]

Where do you think its foot is?

[trail wagon]

wait why

[lethal burrow]

probably the blasted steps entrance? Maybe the part at the end of Farfields is underground or maybe that is just lower down vertically, but it's still outside

[spark valve]

surface is relative

[trail wagon]

Yeah, that's what I marked on my screenshots too

[trail wagon]

I agree

[spark valve]

dirtmouth is also called the surface you can see the cavern walls in the background and there's stuff about tc deliberately removing any and all mention of celestial bodies

[trail wagon]

Btw, to add to what I wrote earlier, the particles on the Mount Fay are ACTUALLY snow

[humble peak]

wasn't there some old team cherry AMA where they said probably everything is underground in a giant cave or w/e

[trail wagon]

Even though I've heard some speculations that it might be spores or some stuff like that, similarly to the KE from the first game

[lethal burrow]

it's called the surface. There's no reason for team Cherry to lie.

[trail wagon]

I mean there may not be any

[trail wagon]

This is also true, plus I think the fact they placed it there shows a great significance of this point specifically

[lethal burrow]

when is it called the surface?

[trail wagon]

Like this is THE surface

[lethal burrow]

The achievement also says the surface doesn't it?

or am I hallucinating?

[humble peak]

no achievements but there is the title theme

[trail wagon]

I don't remember to be honest, lemme check

[trail wagon]

That's right

[lethal burrow]

ah that's what I was thinking of thank you

[spark valve]

surface in the way dirtmouth is

[lethal burrow]

Also, it's not like hornet is the one who named the Momentos I think that's a Meta text thing

[lethal burrow]

I don't recall you mentioning where it's called the surface

[foggy fractal]

actually scratch what I said earlier I wasn't actually reading what you were saying ! still can't say anything for sure though
and backtracking on what I said the soul were probably for the lighthouse's operations so maybe they are fed soul who knows

[spark valve]

I mean yeah the soul jars probably aren't decor

[humble peak]

mt fay could well be actual snow yeah
seeing as it's actually cold there and like moisture probably exists in the air I think?
There's also the infinitely regenerating ice shards which probably help too

[trail wagon]

Yeah so I think it would make sense for the Blasted Steps to be the foot of the mountain, if you will, but it still feels off because it would completely devaluate the nameless town parkour

[foggy fractal]

yeah yeah but I was gonna say that the operators were using it, like the pale king's court, but is that even allowed ?

[lethal burrow]

well, it could also be underground if you want there's nothing saying either way.

[foggy fractal]

if it isn't then it's just the lighthouse itself that needed

[spark valve]

blasted steps are explicitly caves per the map description

[trail wagon]

Yeah

But the problem is that we have snow at Mount Fay

[spark valve]

that's not really a problem for anything

[trail wagon]

And it's MUCH lower than the Nameless Town

[lethal burrow]

Could you get the map description because it could probably just be referring to the actual region instead of just outside of it?

[lethal burrow]

They look more like dandelions to be honest the cold could be related to something else

[wise sand]

Dirtmouth is in a valley kinda

[trail wagon]

And also, shouldn't there be snow in Songclave too?

[trail wagon]

That's what I was talking about. I thought that too

But it's 100% snow, there's a proof of that

[spark valve]

it's not from altitude there's something specific to those caverns

[trail wagon]

here it is, we can see that the snow only covers the right side of the bench

and it's not there on the left, which means it has melted

I don't think dandelion particles work like that

[trail wagon]

It's very likely, OR it might be exposed

[spark valve]

mount fay has an abundance of a material called coldshard, that's probably what's responsible for the temperature

[trail wagon]

wait

Which one is it? I don't remember that one 😅

[spark valve]

you can literally see cave walls fully surrounding most of it

[trail wagon]

I don't think that's what it's called

[wise sand]

The stuff in cold core

[spark valve]

what mnemonids are made of

[foggy fractal]

Flighted creature formed from coldshard. If shattered it will quickly reform.
The coldshard, even when destroyed it remembers its former shape. A remarkable material, and perhaps even more astonishing there seems life contained within it.

[trail wagon]

There's Magnetite (?)

This one is from the Brightvein

[spark valve]

and yeah brightvein is probably made entirely of it

[humble peak]

there's also a materium entry

[foggy fractal]

Huge flighted creature formed from coldshard.
This larger form carries so much weight it can barely move from its place.

big ass bug

[trail wagon]

How do you know its name?

[foggy fractal]

journal

[trail wagon]

Wait is there an entry specifically for this material? I can't find it

[lethal burrow]

The real question is why isn't there snow falling right at the entrance to the slab near the citadel

[trail wagon]

Ohhhhh

Right I'm sorry, I missed it. It makes sense, yeah

[foggy fractal]

don't think so because there isn't a quest related to it
but you can put two and two together from the enemy journal entries

[humble peak]

hang on i might have imagined the materium entry

[trail wagon]

I mean now it makes more sense, probably this coldshard somehow affects the temperature of the atmosphere there creating snow particles ig

[humble peak]

I was thinking of magnetite which you also get in mt fay i think

[trail wagon]

Me too, but I'm not finding it anywhere

[humble peak]

yeah

[lethal burrow]

but like

[trail wagon]

Yeahhh that's right. I've missed this bit for some reason. I mixed it up with the mangetite

[limpid summit]

There’s magnetite not coldshard yeah

[lethal burrow]

The snow should be blowing from Mount fay

[trail wagon]

I thought it was the same thing since it functions similarly

And we also find the magnetite entry in the brightvein

[trail wagon]

Agree

[humble peak]

that said there are plenty of entries without related quests

[lethal burrow]

Like it's cold at the top of the slab, but then why is none of that cold going off to the right?

[humble peak]

like the magnetite itself and the voltthing

[trail wagon]

Maybe it's because of the spa??

[lethal burrow]

no way .it would be affecting the outside at least

[trail wagon]

Agreed, idk

[wise sand]

Ivr seen people say that there's a massive opening leading from the surface down to Mt fay/ the left side of the citadel

[foggy fractal]

yes, unfortunately we don't have a entry for it anyway

[trail wagon]

I don't think you can go there

It's weird that there's no entry for the coldshard though

I hope TC will add more things like that in the DLCs

[wise sand]

You cant

[humble peak]

definitely a lot of spaces to expand the lore yeah

[wise sand]

They were speculating

[foggy fractal]

yeah some of these materials are just for the entry

[trail wagon]

also huh?

[trail wagon]

Yeah, but still they add some lore

[foggy fractal]

we can get more lore and more gameplay

[trail wagon]

I reaaaally hope for more lore

[humble peak]

so more silksong

[foggy fractal]

why settle with one when we can kill two birds with one stone
more materials and more functions for them

[trail wagon]

Yeah agreed

[spark valve]

the materium entries are mostly nothing burgers unfortunately

[foggy fractal]

I mean jinn had the same design motif all the way back

[trail wagon]

I think there will be more skills too, Hornet mentions a couple of them, like swimming

[foggy fractal]

seems like TC just settled on designs that looked similar

[trail wagon]

Yeah, I know, but Zi's head is really similar to Lace's head

[wise sand]

Coincidence

[trail wagon]

I don't think it means anything lore-wise, just fun observation

[foggy fractal]

well there's really nothing to it besides that

[spark valve]

This is the mantis lords THK thing all over again

[foggy fractal]

tsk tsk tsk

[trail wagon]

kindaa

alsooo

[wise sand]

No way people were taking that seriously

[trail wagon]

I think we're getting this in a DLC

Almost 100% sure

[gray iris]

its so fucked up how zotes mom impregnates hornet

[foggy fractal]

I heard there was some code that got added in a patch which is the most damning evidence
though I can't confirm on that

[trail wagon]

I'm sure it still exists in terms of the game's lore, because we can see clean water in the Weavenest Mulrgin, and it would be right below the Bay

[spark valve]

zylotol dialogue

[trail wagon]

Yeah there's literally a separate game mode that can be activated with the word "Bay"

[trail wagon]

Why does everybody think Greyroot is Zote's mother? I don't understand

[foggy fractal]

I mean a bunch of dialogues go nowhere don't they ? blackwyrm for hollow knight 😔

we also never get to see forgehome, shakra's tribe and garmond+zaza's village and we really have no evidence those are gonna get added

[trail wagon]

There's not really anything pointing to that except the words "shell wood"

but I think it's kinda silly 😅

[trail wagon]

maybe we will in the DLC

[foggy fractal]

maybe

[trail wagon]

I had an impression that Shakra's tribe is near extinct, I don't know why tbh

[foggy fractal]

that doesn't sound right

where'd you get that from

[trail wagon]

I saw some video with that. It doesn't mean that it's supposed to be a separate mode, it's just that it can be enabled, but it's most likely an error

Like there's a godhome mode too, which is most likely from the original game, because they reused the code

They even call the rosaries "geo" in the code, still

[foggy fractal]

like who adds code back in for something they wanted to remove 😭 tc's sphagetti code can't be that bad they have to be more competent by now

[trail wagon]

But that sounds reasonable yeah

plus there's still a bay creature corpse in the Memorium

[foggy fractal]

they also removed lifeblood tower a month before release

[trail wagon]

This guy

[trail wagon]

A month? Where was that mentioned?

[stable violet]

we can only hope they will add the bay back

[foggy fractal]

acmi exhibit

[trail wagon]

Are you talking about that?

It's called "Lab" in Ari's sketches

[foggy fractal]

yes that

[trail wagon]

oh yeah, that's right

[stable violet]

maybe itll be in a lifeblood update like in hk lol

[silk dirge]

plasmified zango part 2

[trail wagon]

I just went through the wiki article, yeah

[trail wagon]

I'm pretty sure it will be, I mean Lifeblood is very important

OHHHH THAT'S RIGHT

[stable violet]

i want to see a lot of things in the game tbh

[trail wagon]

There was a lifeblood spire where Bilewater is now at some point

It was probably supposed to be the place where it was found by Zylotol's master

[foggy fractal]

it's there in the bottom left along with some other sections you can access in game such as lava escape sequence and coral tower, but also seemingly some removed parts of the map as well ?

[silk dirge]

some of those are interior rooms

[timber pond]

I just realized There are roots In ancient Basin alot like Greyoots roots....

[trail wagon]

It's mentioned that it was found in a salt water, so probably he's talking about this edge of the Kingdom. He also mentions that it's the farthest point of Pharloom, so probably the Pharloom Bay

[silk dirge]

the really long tall room is surface climb

[stable violet]

i really hope they expand the coral stuff cause the gauntlet was a let down

[foggy fractal]

yeah sounds about right

[silk dirge]

also the rooms on the right im pretty sure are the mist

[timber pond]

Like there are dead roots in the Foreground and background of Ancient basin

[trail wagon]

I don't think we got this

The color pallete doesn't look familiar

[foggy fractal]

I think that's surface climb ?

[timber pond]

Its blue

[silk dirge]

that's surface climb

[trail wagon]

Oh right it's the surface, my bad

[timber pond]

oh yeah it deff is

[silk dirge]

this is the mist

i think

[trail wagon]

I think that's Exhaust Organ

[silk dirge]

oh yeah that would make sense

[foggy fractal]

yeah all these makes sense

[trail wagon]

Sounds right

[silk dirge]

one of those is the green prince throne room i think

since thats an interior room

[foggy fractal]

they just grouped interior sections it seems to where it'd be most convient

[trail wagon]

But these aren't in the game

[foggy fractal]

yeah wtf are those

[trail wagon]

The first one is the Lifeblood thing

[timber pond]

That one on the right looks like a spire....

[trail wagon]

The second one looks like

[trail wagon]

Yeah

And it's like a hugeeeee room

[timber pond]

like some kinda

Lifeblood spire......

[trail wagon]

The color pallete looks similar to "The Gloom"

[trail wagon]

The lifeblood spire is the one on the left, I think

It's called "Lab" in Ari's sketches, I would assume it is/was supposed to be a place where it was studied

[silk dirge]

i dont immediately recognize these

[trail wagon]

and probably the experiments went wrong

[timber pond]

Im sugesting they might not be entirely unrelated

[trail wagon]

one of these gotta be Karmelita

[timber pond]

the ones on the right look liek branacle bay,

[foggy fractal]

I think the lifeblood spire is the name on the very first map isn't it ? maybe they just merged that concept with the lab

[silk dirge]

oh yeah true

[trail wagon]

Ohh gotcha

Here's what The Gloom used to look like

I think it looks kinda similar

But it got wiped off back in 2020

[trail wagon]

omg I found it

I think at least

Here are some Bay rooms

[past cypress]

What's that long white room on the top left?

[trail wagon]

that one?

[past cypress]

Ye

[trail wagon]

I'm not sure it's a room tbh

[silk dirge]

possibly nameless town?

[trail wagon]

Although it might be

[trail wagon]

Yeah, looks similar

I mean it's almost just a straight line so it's likely it

[timber pond]

That spire might be the "lifeblood spire" as its in the salty lake zylotol mentions

[lethal burrow]

imege or nata

[silk dirge]

theres also a cut karak room i think

what is that

is that the crustnut room

i think it is actually yeah

im just blind

[timber pond]

They are everywhere in the abckground and foreground

[lethal burrow]

should be easy then

[timber pond]

Like this image for example, but really you could take any screen shot of the "Main" room

[cursive sinew]

Curious btw did they ever state they cut bay and for what reason?

[lethal burrow]

they have a different physicality and texture to them

[trail wagon]

Yeah I agree, it's likely

[trail wagon]

No, but it's not in the game so for now it is cut

[timber pond]

Im simply saying they might be the white ladys "decayed" branches

Becaause they are litteraly everywhere in the basin

[trail wagon]

Yeah it's similar, but I think there are no lore implications to that

I noticed a similarity between some cut vines in the game files and the ones from the "Embrace The Void" ending. The cut vines were supposed to be in the Gloom, a cut area

But I don't think it means anything other than that the developers have a similar style and draw similar objects sometimes 🤷

[timber pond]

I mean in red memory her branches are everywhere.

[trail wagon]

Greyroot's branches?

[timber pond]

Im simply saying white lady probably Droped Her "seeds" into the abyss or produced thme in the basin like greyroot produces her "seed"

[trail wagon]

Ohhh yeah you're right

The eggs are literally the seeds I'd say so yeah

What I know about the Red Memory is that there was supposed to be a boss fight 👀

Because there are attack sprites for Vespa in the files

I'm sure we'll get it in the bossrush DLC

[stray fog]

Her branches are white normally

[timber pond]

But they might be dead is what im saying

[timber pond]

also these look like the eggs we come from

Wher you get pale ore

[fresh kraken]

is widow's head stolen by first sinner

but first sinner and widow make same noises

widow's eyes look like first sinners mask

and widows mask is stolen

also first sinners mask is kinda broken

[humble peak]

they're both weavers

[fresh kraken]

also they have same theme

[humble peak]

they're both weavers

[humble peak]

they're both weavers

[limpid summit]

Maybe the pins through her spinnerets are capped with a little sphere

So they can’t come out

I genuinely have no idea

[fresh kraken]

I wonder what first sinner's sin was

i mean i think its apostate

but still not clear enough

[limpid summit]

Probably apostasy yeah

She denied GMS’s divinity

[fresh kraken]

ye

[limpid summit]

So it was probably the weavers who locked her up

[fresh kraken]

prob that but why th theyre fighting

[limpid summit]

Cause slab was post GMS and the conductors didn’t know who she was

[fresh kraken]

arent they like sharing same goal

[limpid summit]

Wdym

Oh

[fresh kraken]

hornet and first sinner both against gms

[limpid summit]

Well FS seems to be a memory boss

Sort of

All of the weaver pillars are dead weavers

Probably testing her or something

[fresh kraken]

i hate fs

[craggy smelt]

I think it's something Hornet alludes to when declining to bind Eva

Yours is a mind strong and strange. That union could prove dangerous to my identity.
First Sinner's mind is basically warring with Hornet's until she proves her will stronger

[fresh kraken]

first sinner more like fucked shit

ashley you dont have to do 2 reactions

[limpid summit]

Best lore and boss in the game lowkey

Would have totally worked as the Hornet dlc final boss

[rugged sigil]

ass jim lore

[limpid summit]

Ass Jim lore is that he probably wasn’t even that bad of a chef

He just decided to make home meals and they hated him for it

[craggy smelt]

misunderstood genius

[rugged sigil]

he wasnt even kicked out for making food like the muckmaggot he was kicked out probably bcs he was pickling people

[fresh kraken]

gng she is harder than the final boss

[limpid summit]

Hm I never thought of it like that

[dawn sluice]

how are the craws so organized and intelligent despite the haunting

[muted lantern]

crows are smart

[rugged sigil]

do they have the strings?

[craggy smelt]

birb

[dawn sluice]

yes i’m pretty sure when i played the needolin the jurors had strings

[craggy smelt]

Craw Court law has been strictly engrained into their culture, it gives them a strong will and resistance to outside influence

[limpid summit]

Seems like the court of craws can shake off the haunting like the mottled skarr

[dawn sluice]

“i may be haunted, but that doesn’t mean im haunted!”

[humble peak]

this goes kinda hard

[craggy smelt]

does make sense that we'd see something like a struggle at least once if this sort of thing can be dangerous to the binder

we might be seeing something similar with the Weaver Queen ending where Hornet's crest goes fucking crazy

suggests something scary is happening to her identity

[trail wagon]

The knight hatches from the egg in the Birthplace, the one that activates the abyss escape cutscene

What if she's not a 'true' Weaver?

I'm kinda inclined to think she is the weaver in the fourth part from the City of Steel the Cradle lore tablet talks about

What about it?

Ohhh

Well

[craggy smelt]

yea, i don't know what the hell that little grey patch is

[trail wagon]

Maybe she means being the last Weaver serving the GMS?

[trail wagon]

And "the first" may mean that she thinks they were literally "the first" after her

[trail wagon]

I don't think so

Oh wow which one is it? Haven't heard of it

[past cypress]

Pretty sure that's the pin

[trail wagon]

Mossbag proposed a theory that the First sinner was trapped by the Weavers

Oh wow I've seen these, but I didn't really look close enough

[past cypress]

No, she "raged against the silken lie'" aka got pissed that she wasn't actually divine and a child of GMS

[trail wagon]

I think it kinda makes more sense since the Weavers built the Citadel and not the GMS

[trail wagon]

I think it's not broken, as it is the same mask in the cutscene, and we also see earlier stages of her evolution, and she had the same mask

I have another question, do you guys think that ALL Weavers came from Pharlids? I mean it's not like there's anything in the game saying that ALL of them were created this way directly

[craggy smelt]

though if they imprisoned FS for going against GMS, and then they all went against GMS later, why wouldn't they let her out?
I think it's implied that she's Atla, and Weavenest Atla seems the largest weavenest and was involved in the most extensive resistance (snare setter, Eva, etc.)

if shes Atla, sounds like she was operating freely in efforts against GMS

[trail wagon]

The idea is that they imprisoned her for spreading information about them NOT BEING DIVINE, which basically undermines their religion

[wise sand]

YES

[trail wagon]

Huh?

[trail wagon]

Also true, but idk how to explain her capture in the Slab. I mean the way the descriptions are structured sounds a lot like other documentation from the Citadel, and I can't really see who else would capture her there

[trail wagon]

The WEAVERS built the Citadel, and I think the Slab too, as it can be considered kind of an extension of the Citadel, it's literally its prison

[craggy smelt]

all kinds of Citadel forces are out after Weavers, the Slab wouldn't be any different - GMS may have just sentenced her there for eternal imprisonment

[trail wagon]

Hm maybe

It's a bit unclear when the religion was established

Yeah, me too, I don't think she was made out of drapemites

But there is another type of Pharlids everybody leaves out for some reason

[craggy smelt]

I don't know that FS would've really been interested in spreading the truth of Weavers to non-Weavers, or that it would have mattered in any case, Weavers were pretty fierce and controlling
the idea that the Weavers might've imprisoned her for fear of her preaching to the lesser pilgrims seems unlikely to me

[trail wagon]

Were they?

I don't remember them there

[craggy smelt]

Herrah thought that being a Dreamer was like hibernation, so she gorged herself before going to sleep
like a bear

[trail wagon]

I mean I see flaws in both explanations

It's also unclear to me whether the GMS is asleep when Hornet enters Pharloom

[craggy smelt]

she is, at least as far as 'asleep' goes for a god being
in the first silk heart memory, she calls on Hornet to 'witness our waking'

'asleep' in this case is something like bound in the Silk and Song spell of the Weavers, which has slowly been failing and finally falls apart for the big fight

[trail wagon]

It doesn't seem to be the case logically, because who else would order Hornet to be brought to Pharloom

But how would she give her orders?

[olive quartz]

more or less the same way she summons enemies to attack hornet throughout the game

[craggy smelt]

via the Haunting - Silk is bound, but it's not a black/white thing, her influence has been growing
like with Radiance's infection, where it spreads and grows over time

the Weavers bound her, when it was clear that the binding wasn't going to hold, they built the Citadel to reinforce it
they bailed when they realized it still wasn't going to hold, and Silk started to gradually take over

[olive quartz]

it is pretty funny though that at some point she had to get a choral commandment written down to tell the choir to go capture hornet

like the stirring god still has to go through the bureaucracy

[trail wagon]

As far as I understood, everybody already had silk in their shells prior to the Haunting

[craggy smelt]

yeah, like I said, it was a gradual thing - she couldn't just immediately shut down all the music and break the binding all at once

[craggy smelt]

yeah, from the Whiteward experiments and their descendants, that's what made so many especially vulnerable to the Haunting

[trail wagon]

Yeah, that's also a bit weird to me

Like did she tell the conductors and they would then write it down?

[olive quartz]

note that the citadel's silk comes essentially entirely from GMS, so she had to be asleep before this could happen

[trail wagon]

I think the whole "lulled to sleep" thing is a bit vague

[olive quartz]

seemingly so

[trail wagon]

I still don't really get how exactly she is kept asleep

[craggy smelt]

the song

[wise sand]

Kinda odd that ballaor didn't get haunted

[trail wagon]

Doesn't it come from the Weavers at this point?

[craggy smelt]

Weavers seemed to sustain her with their music
and at some point they played a song to keep her asleep and bound

[wise sand]

He has so much silk in him and he's right next to gms

[olive quartz]

team cherry very much did not work out the particulars of what exactly GMS can and cannot do while asleep

[olive quartz]

no, the big ball of silk in the attic has a giant loom attached to it

[olive quartz]

the entire religion of pharloom essentially

[trail wagon]

He has an IV drip with silk lol

[olive quartz]

the reason every goddamn thing in the kingdom from the benches to the bellways plays music is because the entire citadel is a sham to keep the music going

[trail wagon]

Yeah, that's pretty clear, but it's still somewhat confusing at times. In the cutscene where they play their harps they say "for her eternal our song sustains", something like that, not a verbatim quote but still

[trail wagon]

It sounds like they're actually.. praising her?

[olive quartz]

although i suspect that the choir isn't actually doing much and the bulk of the magic song is from the clearly magical bells rung along the pilgrimage

[craggy smelt]

its why that lead Vaultkeeper died, he figured out the real reason for the song and it destroyed his will to live

[trail wagon]

Ballador also knew it

[craggy smelt]

it might be something similar to other higher beings, like how the Radiance wanted her followers to dream of her, or PK wanted bugs to yield and devote themselves to his kingdom
GMS had her followers sing for her in praise
at some point the Weavers grew resentful of her rule, and bound her with a song of silk and binding

[trail wagon]

And probably that's why he's in such a bad state too

[granite grove]

Can someone pls explain to me what even happens in ||weaver queen|| ending?

[craggy smelt]

Hornet fuses with Grand Mother Silk
it might be a bad thing

[trail wagon]

Yeah, I mean it's a pretty good and solid concept, but the specifics are a bit fuzzy in my opinion

[granite grove]

So it a bad thing?

[craggy smelt]

maybe

[olive quartz]

hornet binds GMS and in particular her crest, which essentially means that the hornet we play as has been erased and the weaver queen will have more or less the mentality of grand mother silk

[trail wagon]

Hornet replaces the GMS

[trail wagon]

I mean Hornet mentions that some part of herself WANTS this

[granite grove]

In the cutscene, some bugs are turned to stone, are all bugs like that

[trail wagon]

In one of the Caretaker dialogues

[olive quartz]

probably not

[craggy smelt]

binding can also potentially be dangerous to Hornet's mind and identity
seen with how Hornet's crest goes crazy

[granite grove]

Ok good

[trail wagon]

Also

[craggy smelt]

might be a little too much Silk in there with her...

[trail wagon]

Technically she binds all of the Weavers' corpses we find

[granite grove]

I think it was just a silk overload or smth

Too much silk

[trail wagon]

And Eva too

[olive quartz]

silk overload but also she consumed the identity of an elder god and as expected it overrode her own

[granite grove]

That’s what it looked like but I’m not that knowledgeable abt lore

[trail wagon]

So would that mean that now there are 10+ beings inside of her consciousness? 😭😭😭

[craggy smelt]

she mentions that a strong mind can be dangerous to her identity when declining to bind Eva

[trail wagon]

Yeah

[granite grove]

So now she has GMS in her soul

[craggy smelt]

she can handle some minds, but some are more dangerous than others

[olive quartz]

not that hornet would become grand mother silk, she probably wouldn't have GMS' memories in the same way she doesn't get eva's, but she will have the mentality and overall identity of an elder god

[trail wagon]

Wouldn't the minds of the Weavers be strong too..?

[olive quartz]

the mind of the one who created the weavers is stronger still

[craggy smelt]

maybe, but other than First Sinner they don't seem to give Hornet any trouble

[trail wagon]

I'm wondering what the 'strung to serve' cut ending means

I know we shouldn't consider the cut content cannon

[granite grove]

Wait but hornet binded widow

[granite grove]

I haven’t done that ending so don’t spoil pls

[trail wagon]

Absolutely, but still. Although Hornet herself seems to be more powerful than any Weaver, since she is half pale

[olive quartz]

GMS absorbs hornet's power while keeping her memories and motivations fully intact. debatable whether this is better or worse than weaver queen who would essentially be a completely new elder god

[craggy smelt]

she binds a lot of stuff, but Grand Mother Silk is on a whole other level

[trail wagon]

Oh I'm sorry. It's a cut ending, you cannot get it in the game

[granite grove]

Oh

That’s fine then

[craggy smelt]

be careful about spoilers in lore though, there's no spoiler restriction
we could talk about anything

[granite grove]

Ok I might go then

Thanks

[craggy smelt]

its a good idea until you're done with all your playthroughs

[trail wagon]

It's similar to the Weaver's Queen one, but it seems like the GMS mixes with Hornet

[stuck berry]

do you guys think we could see prime shellwood or hunter's march in the DLC or just the coral kingdom

[trail wagon]

I wish but I don't think so tbh

[olive quartz]

i don't think we see prime hunter's march for the same reason we don't see the ants' actual colony, hornet would literally just get eaten alive

[trail wagon]

I feel like it would be a bit excessive lore and gameplay-wise

[craggy smelt]

I don't know what would be all that different from either of those, compared to Coral Gorge

[stuck berry]

touché

i was thinking because in nyleth's memory shellwood is a lot more vibrant the little we see of it

[trail wagon]

They were cut or made significantly smaller for lore reasons. Initially there was supposed to be a huge ant city, but it wouldn't really make sense lore-wise

[trail wagon]

I mean I wish they did something similar to Lost Verdania with all four hearts, but I think they decided not to do it because it felt a bit overloaded and perhaps a bit too monotonous

[stuck berry]

definitely

[trail wagon]

I wish we got a fuller version of the Coral Gorge but the more I learn about it the more I become convinced we're not getting it

[stuck berry]

lost verdania is great aesthetically but the lack of benches if understandable made it kind of a drag

[trail wagon]

There's an OST for it in the game files, and it's literally a slightly different version of Fleatopia soundtrack

[trail wagon]

Yeah, but it's also pretty small, plus I don't think benches would make sense in terms of the game lore

Since it's literally a memory

I'm personally not really thrilled by how the memory mechanic is implemented lore-wise, I don't feel like it makes too much sense to me

What's the difference between the dream realm and the memory "realm"? Aren't they both pretty much the same thing in terms of what they mean to the characters they belong to? And like narratively in general?

[craggy smelt]

they're probably the same thing generally, Hornet just perceives things in terms of silk rather than dream-catchers

I'm sad there wasn't at least one little bit of Essence somewhere though

[stray fog]

People say that pharloom also has dream stuff, but we just don't see it because Hornet doesn't have a dream nail.

But we see whispering roots in hk even without a dream nail, and there are no whispering roots in silksong, so Im confused

[craggy smelt]

I wonder if it's something to do with Pharloom still being broadly a living kingdom

maybe the veil gets thinner in a dead kingdom like Hallownest

[dawn sluice]

memory
dream
nightmare

yknow memories aren’t really that separate from dreams and nightmares at all

they all have effects on the outside world and have the ability to just make things up

heck you can even take stuff from memory dream or nightmare

[heavy gyro]

Memories are dreams and nightmares are fancy dreams

[trail wagon]

Like yeah

It doesn't really make sense thematically

[abstract rivet]

I mean Pharloom would have dream stuff theres just no dream nail smh

the dream shit is moth tribe craft and we dont got moths

[heavy gyro]

Yeah but whispering roots are just dreams that take root or whatever that means

So they're probably natural

[trail wagon]

I mean some dream bosses are literal memories, like White Defender who is a memory of Dung Defender's past self

[trail wagon]

Same thing with Karmelita pretty much

[dawn sluice]

yeah dreams and memories are not separate at all really

besides how they’re accessed

[abstract rivet]

Bro what

I can’t really describe it but thats not a memory fight lol

[dawn sluice]

oh hey it’s #1 lace fan (debatable)

[abstract rivet]

thats like saying White Palace is in a memory realm

[trail wagon]

So does that mean you don't really need a dream stuff to get into one's dream? Or is it separate from a dream? Don't all dreams have dream particles of different colors signifying the difference between who this dream belongs to, like white, red and green particles?

[abstract rivet]

I mean we don’t have a dream nail

[trail wagon]

I mean

We're like in his head

[abstract rivet]

And particles appeared without dream nail cus of dreamers

thats like the only instance where you see dream essence without dream nail

[trail wagon]

Yeah true, but it's tied to dreams

[abstract rivet]

Dream just may exist but Hornet doesn’t have the equipment to do anything with it tbh

[heavy gyro]

Memories are confirmed to be dreams considering the description to awakened dream nail says you can enter memories

[trail wagon]

We never see a dream without them though

[abstract rivet]

you don’t enter memories tho

[trail wagon]

I mean Lost Verdania is also not entirely a memory

[abstract rivet]

I mean White Lady hijacks the Red Memory

Memories are just really fucked up realms

[stray fog]

The moth tribe made the dream nail, but everything else is a natural force in that world

[trail wagon]

Because the Green Prince remembers Hornet and interacts with her, it's not just an image of the past

[heavy gyro]

"The power of the Dream Nail has fully awoken, allowing entry into certain protected memories." This also means white palace is a memory

[abstract rivet]

ue exactly

White Palace is not a memory

[heavy gyro]

I literally brought proof that it is a memory

[trail wagon]

Right, but still, some dreams can be a memory (?)

[abstract rivet]

It is deliberately known that Pale King moved The White Palace to an dream

realm

[heavy gyro]

Yeah and memories are dreams

[trail wagon]

Like dreams are pretty abstract it seems

[abstract rivet]

huh

[heavy gyro]

"The power of the Dream Nail has fully awoken, allowing entry into certain protected memories." Read this again

[trail wagon]

Just like in the real world, you can see dreams about something that happened, and something that didn't

[abstract rivet]

I know lol but we don’t enter memories ever

[dawn sluice]

memories have weird logic of how something like pale stag can exist
it was made up entirely by the memory, green prince never saw it, just assumed it existed and it somehow did

[heavy gyro]

Yeah we do

[abstract rivet]

the White Palace we enter is the real current one and thats been known for like ages

[dawn sluice]

in a memory

[heavy gyro]

Not all of it

[stray fog]

Memories are not entirely the same as dreams

Some dreams are memories, but not every dream is a memory (like godhome)

[abstract rivet]

are you gonna bring up Path of Pain

[trail wagon]

I don't think he made it up, because he says they used to haunt it

[heavy gyro]

Yeah

[abstract rivet]

yeah that’s Seal of Binding

[trail wagon]

But I'm inclined to think it's a mythological creature

[abstract rivet]

it saves something like data pretty sure I should read the hunter journal entry hang on

[heavy gyro]

The white defender example is also very clearly a memory, which shows memories are also dreams

[abstract rivet]

It is an seal to preserve something important.

[trail wagon]

I would say it's a mix of both

[abstract rivet]

it is not an memory

[stray fog]

Yes but the converse isn't true

[trail wagon]

Like his image is a memory, but at the end of the fight he looks at the silhouettes of other knights, that is probably not a memory

Like it's not 100% retelling a specific moment from the past

[heavy gyro]

Ye ik

[heavy gyro]

Verdania is also not 100% retelling of the past

[trail wagon]

Yeah

[abstract rivet]

what is it lol

[trail wagon]

That's what I said before hehehehe

[dawn sluice]

memories are also weird in how they

1. affect the real world
2. the one remembering knows they’re in a memory somehow?

[trail wagon]

It's Green Prince's mind

[stray fog]

But it is what the green prince remembers it to be, while the white defender boss fight is not an actual thing that happened

[abstract rivet]

Oh then, it’s Green Princes memories

[heavy gyro]

Dreams can also affect the real world since the knight can die in the white palace and rad fight

[trail wagon]

Like he remembers it, but he interacts with Hornet while being there and he knows that this is a dream

[abstract rivet]

or hear me out.. he also entered the “memory”

[abstract rivet]

those aren’t exactly real dreams

White Palace is like an real thing

[trail wagon]

Weren't you saying the opposite thing?

[abstract rivet]

what

[trail wagon]

I'm sorry, I need to get some sleep 😂

[heavy gyro]

They're still dreams

[abstract rivet]

Lmao

[trail wagon]

I'm getting a bit lost ahaashah

[abstract rivet]

Yeah they are a real thing in the dream realm to be fair

[stray fog]

I think we're applying too much logic to this

[trail wagon]

Weren't you saying we never enter memories?

[abstract rivet]

what

[stray fog]

Its like time travel, don't think too much about it

[abstract rivet]

We don’t enter memories in Hallownest

Or the dream bosses maybe imprinted memories i may be wrong

[trail wagon]

Oh you meant thdt

Not in general

[abstract rivet]

but White Palace ain’t no memory

[trail wagon]

Okay my brain is melting, I'll go watch some dreams lmao

[trail wagon]

I agree I know

I was trying to say that dreams and memories seem to be somehow connected

But it's not clear if the memories from SS are in the same realm as dreams

[abstract rivet]

Oh wait I’m fucking stupid

[trail wagon]

And also my personal understanding is that there's not really a single dream realm in Hallownest, like it's not like every single boss and dream segment are literally in the same world, it's more like a state, and each dream boss area is its own world, if it makes sense, it's not directly connected to other ones

[abstract rivet]

wiki says dream realm contains memories of dead things NVM

But white palace isn’t a memory

the radiance realm isnt also

[trail wagon]

I think dreams are just a dimension where thoughts are material

[stray fog]

Doesn't the radiance only exist in the minds of bugs or something

Like she isn't in the physical world

[trail wagon]

It can be memories, fantasies, dreams, pretty much anything we see

[trail wagon]

Like Pantheons don't actually physically exist, right?

[trail wagon]

And they definitely don't exist in the same "world" as the Soul Tyrant arena, for example

Like every dream is a separate "world"

[trail wagon]

As far as I understand yeah

[abstract rivet]

thats just godseeker shenanigans ngl

[trail wagon]

Hahahaha

[trail wagon]

Wait but how did she create physical moths?

[hushed viper]

Do you guys think when the brellways were used more there would sometimes be delays

[trail wagon]

You know, I hope it doesn't come off as too pessimistic, but I'm not entirely sure TC know the answers to these questions themselves 😂

[hushed viper]

Me when i have to go to work in greymoor and the bellbeasts are lowk delayed

[trail wagon]

Huh?

[dreamy onyx]

hey guys
witness my crack theory

greymoor would probably fit more as ireland and bonebottom as wales just pretend that's what it says

[robust wagon]

What does londinium mean? Did they make London a mineral?

[fresh kraken]

||is chef lugoli harder than first sinner||

[robust wagon]

no.

[fresh kraken]

i cant beat him but i can beat first s

[dreamy onyx]

its the name for the centre of london, aka where the romans built their first base

the base around which the entire rest of the city would be based upon

[abstract rivet]

what is ts twin

Greymoor is London because its so depressing and has rain and all the people are asocial

also its very dirty and has alot of birds

[dreamy onyx]

true but I meant in terms of a historical parallel more than aesthetics

[abstract rivet]

oh alr then The Citadel is basically The British Empire so it being London makes sense

[dreamy onyx]

yeah lmao

[abstract rivet]

tf is Londinium

[dreamy onyx]

^^

[abstract rivet]

Memorium is basically The British Museum

[dreamy onyx]

wait true

[abstract rivet]

Holly shit I might be cooking..