sk-lore

[vestal swan]

And then the rest of the kingdom dies too

[lethal burrow]

I love conjugations that never actually existed

They're my favorite. They're so funny.

[hushed viper]

Or some of them died from the infected/got infected themselves but i dont think the infection was there when they came as time has passed

[obtuse creek]

Pro tip for everyone: as a general rule “thine” is either a) the noun form of the genitive (e.g. “The fault is thine.”) or it’s the adjectival form specifically before a vowel or the letter h (e.g. “Thine own eyes deceive you.”)

If it’s not in those two places use “thy” instead

I don’t wanna see “Thine wriggling” again

It is like saying “an worm”

[vestal swan]

Infection was gone, radiance is dead by this point

[obtuse creek]

This doesn’t improve in Godseeker mode either unfortunately

She does Not get her act together even for her lord and master

Original

Most holy! Most divine! O God of Gods! Thou return to test thineself upon the lowly, snivelling weaklings serving beneath thee.
Permit Us then to bow and scrape as bugs impotent before thy glory. We wouldst give Our all to witness again but a moment of thine terrible might!

Edited for grammar:

Most holy! Most divine! O God of Gods! You return to test Yourself upon the lowly, snivelling weaklings serving beneath You.
Permit Us then to bow and scrape as bugs impotent before Your glory. We would give Our all to witness again but a moment of Your terrible might!

“You” should be used when speaking to your betters in this register. Also “thine terrible” is grammatically incorrect, as is “We wouldst”

I’m glad she’s dead if she’s gonna call her better “thou”

[lethal burrow]

i'm curious what you think of the grammar of the no blazing kin lore tablet

[obtuse creek]

Which one is that again

[lethal burrow]

thorne of the pale king

[silk dirge]

whats interesting is people have pointed out a full orchestra chamber is 40 people

[stoic moth]

No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark. The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote. Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed.

[silk dirge]

so she killed a lot of them

[lethal burrow]

i'm more curious about the grammar of this one then the specific words being correct

[obtuse creek]

It’s awkward but it doesn’t look incorrect. Not a big fan of the structure of the third sentence because it lacks parallel grammar which makes me frown

But it’s not wrong I don’t think?

The third sentence has a stranded noun phrase but it’s also poetry so it’s allowed to be a bit more stream of consciousness

It’s not how I’d personally phrase this for like. Beauty of expression but there’s nothing where I’m like “this doesn’t sound like fluent English” like with godseeker’s nonsense

Where the type of mistakes being made is on the level of like. Saying “Me goes to eat an pear”.

[lethal burrow]

neat

[stoic moth]

I could see some characters saying that tbh

[obtuse creek]

Loam

Loam is so dumb 💔

[dire lynx]

boon 🥀

[vestal swan]

WL :

[lethal burrow]

"me no likey" ahh dialogue

[obtuse creek]

Not take candle ass dialog

Anyway Loam would vote Mark Zuckerberg for president if you let him

Just saying

[lethal burrow]

define "let him"

[obtuse creek]

Give the horse the franchise

[stoic moth]

no you would probably have to force him

[obtuse creek]

Hrrr once me get enough subscriber me allowed to eat me Meta Meal™️

[stoic moth]

unless it was a mail in ballot you filled for him while he still ran

[obtuse creek]

Me understand that being a CEO is hardest work of all

[stoic moth]

bro would tweak the fuck out waiting in line for the voting booth

[obtuse creek]

True

What are the odds that the treadmill doesn’t give a rosary again

[lethal burrow]

I choose to think that he would find a good home at valve

[obtuse creek]

Is it 50%

If the machine works as intended I think the hourly wage is about 80 rosaries per hour

Which is 640 per day assuming an eight hour day

I think they work 12 hour days though

So 960

This is roughly 1920 geo

[lethal burrow]

how do we know

[obtuse creek]

It’s about 2:1 if we assume the arcane egg is priced at market value

[lethal burrow]

that's assuming lemm and scrounge value it the same which I'm not sure about

[vestal swan]

Relic seekers are not doing anything on based on market value and there's no accurate measurement of time or any hint of what kind of units they used

[obtuse creek]

Yeah that’s why I said “if we assume they’re priced at market value”

[lethal burrow]

True, Awtsm just likes being aggressive

[stoic moth]

geo rosary conversion always going to be weird when only one of them is actually manufactured/minted

[lethal burrow]

I'm pretty sure the rosary beads are made of coral

[vestal swan]

Coral bone metal wood, something says some of them are made by the pilgrims themselves iirc

[obtuse creek]

The simple key is also roughly double the price in Hallownest as in Pharloom

[stoic moth]

i imagine geo suffered from extreme inflation during/after fall of hallownest

[obtuse creek]

950 geo, 500 rosaries

[vestal swan]

The prices aren't really comparable, the shop keeps in both games decide their own prices

[obtuse creek]

I’m aware I’m just saying that where we have similar items they’re about 2:1. which makes sense from a game balance perspective since roughly half the enemies don’t drop currency now

[lethal burrow]

You're a stick in the mud

[vestal swan]

If geo and rosaries were actually comparable the thing to compare them against would be benches and stagways versus benches and bellways

But nobody has a standardized price for anything

There's no currency standard

Even the travelers in hallownest think the currency is stupid

[obtuse creek]

Yeah I’m more talking from a meta perspective that geo is roughly half as valuable as rosaries

[vestal swan]

Except divine maybe, or maybe she's just not understanding it and overcharging

[lethal burrow]

it's like gold it's standardized by objective quantity as opposed to government labelled worth

[stoic moth]

geo isn't really a currency tbh

[vestal swan]

It is

[lethal burrow]

it is

[stoic moth]

it's a raw natural resource

[vestal swan]

It's accepted in machinery and tolls

[obtuse creek]

I mean rosaries are described as a barter system but it’s still effectively currency

[lethal burrow]

Those are not exclusive and usually coincide

[stoic moth]

just random ass chunks of shell

[vestal swan]

It's still a currency

One with at least some amount of outside the country influence

[stoic moth]

i'd say it's more of a regional specialty good

[vestal swan]

Travelers who do not plan on staying accept it as currency

And again there are machines built to take it as currency

[obtuse creek]

Anyway based on this loose understanding of geo value we can conclude that a personal hot tub will fetch somewhere in the neighborhood of 2200 geo depending on the variable cost of labor and the personal greed of the shopkeeper lol

Anyway sly I have a million geo where is my hot tub

[vestal swan]

Where are you getting this idea about value? Sly overcharges on purpose, Divine probably does it accidentally, Lemm iirc is generous with his payments based on his initial dialogue for one of the trade-in items

[lethal burrow]

It's personal judgement

[vestal swan]

So headcanon?

[stoic moth]

divine is big and greedy

[lethal burrow]

Educated guessing is a better term I'd say but sure

[vestal swan]

Divine adds two zeros to the cost of those charms (?)

[obtuse creek]

I have explained where I’m getting the very loose value from. Two comparable items are double the price in geo and there’s roughly half as many rosaries so the price is roughly 2:1. I’m not arguing this is objective fact, just that you can probably argue that these are roughly equivalent prices from a game design standpoint

[vestal swan]

It's just guessing if you don't have a standard

[lethal burrow]

You're so demeaning all the time

[vestal swan]

It's not demeaning to point out flaws in an argument

[stoic moth]

from an outside game balance perspective 2:1 is reasonable

Lol

[obtuse creek]

Lol

[lethal burrow]

phrasing and linguistics play a role

[vestal swan]

[obtuse creek]

Anyway I very much qualified a lot of my statements so like idk man

Not arguing that there’s an in universe currency exchange where HNG 1.00 is PLR 0.50

Just that they’re roughly twice as valuable between games based on pricing of certain things and drop rates

[stoic moth]

yeah that's fair

[obtuse creek]

Anyway so if the hourly rate in the underworks is like 80 rosaries why are all the underworks people so poor

Are they stupid

[vestal swan]

Where are you getting the pay information? or the time

[obtuse creek]

It’s about 1 rosary every 45 seconds iirc

[stoic moth]

probably an irl hour is more like multiple ingame days

[obtuse creek]

3600/45=80

[vestal swan]

Wait what's pumping out rosaries?

[obtuse creek]

The treadmill thing

[stoic moth]

horse treadmill

[vestal swan]

Ohhhhh

That's a really weird edge case, but that is interesting

I didn't even find him on my playthrough

[obtuse creek]

Let me check hours worked (roughly, based on the lore tablets in greymoor and deep docks)

Assuming they’re referring to work hours looks like minimum twelve hour days

[stoic moth]

they spend all they money on bench and confession

so yeah

[obtuse creek]

So 960 rosaries a day. Are they dumb what are they spending this shit on

[timber pond]

cool thing

WAit what the fuck . the Big Geo in Hollow knight is as deep as the void??

[vestal swan]

What do they say?

[obtuse creek]

On the eighth harvest, send:
Fifty measures, nine beats dregthread, spooled,
Fourteen measures dregthread, twined,
Oath of fealty, all workers.

On the twelth harvest, send:
Fourty measures dregthread, spooled,
Two beats fine thread, twined,
Oath of fealty, all workers.

At the seventh bell toll, send:
Thirty measures, four beats Smokerock,
Eight beats Sweetsmelt,
Mark of fealty, all workers.

At the ninth bell toll, send:
Twenty measures, two beats Smokerock,
Seven beats Sweetsmelt,
Mark of fealty, all workers.

Obviously not clear this is referring specifically to work hours but I did say “assuming this is the case”

[stoic moth]

wtf time signature they using

[obtuse creek]

Also did they misspell twelfth or did the wiki

[vestal swan]

I wouldn't say the harvest is a measure of time, that would just be when the machine fills up or whatever. The bell tolling could be a measure of time but it's like only goes up to nine by this and we don't know what each one measures out too

[stoic moth]

over 9 beats in a measure?!

[vestal swan]

Oh right music

Yeah that just throws all of it out the window

[obtuse creek]

One beat is 4

[timber pond]

https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/1ord7er/maps_of_both_kindoms_relative_to_the_void_seas/ post for this

[obtuse creek]

Lumble bets you a “beat” of rosaries. It’s 4 rosaries

[stoic moth]

yeah but it would appear that there are more than 9 beats in a measure

[obtuse creek]

More than 8 at least yes

[vestal swan]

I don't think beats has the same meaning across these dialogues though

[obtuse creek]

I don’t see why not it’s the same unit of measurement

[vestal swan]

"Two beats fine thread twined"
Why is the factory worker schedule concerned with the prices

[stoic moth]

and in this case it seems like beat is used as a unit of weight not as the quantity 4

[obtuse creek]

That said I think what constitutes enough for a beat probably varies

[timber pond]

Cant wait for pepole to Find out events in the game from this whack ass measurement of time 😂

[stoic moth]

unless 4 rosaries weighs 1 beat?

[obtuse creek]

It’s not the price a “beat” is just four of something. Though I don’t know what quantity of smoke rock is considered “one”

[stoic moth]

50 measures, 9 beats dregthread, spooled

[obtuse creek]

Their shit is in 12/4 I guess idfk

[stoic moth]

in context of rosaries sure but imo it seems like it's being used as a measure of weight

[obtuse creek]

Possible that yeah a beat is just the weight of a single rosary

Which would make sense for gauging price. Irl items were also priced based on the weight of currency and currency could be debased by removing heavier and more precious metal from it

The toll machines also involve dropping rosaries into a bowl which could be connected to a scale and it activates once a sufficient weight is reached

[stoic moth]

"twined" is throwing me off
twined around what you can't just twine shit

[stoic moth]

would track with the increasing metallicness of more valuable beads

[obtuse creek]

Maybe the spools everywhere. They seem a roughly standard size

Or the little spools that some enemies like reeds drop

[stoic moth]

spooled is good

you can spool thread onto spools, great to measure quantity in spools

there's no such thing as a "twine of thread"

[obtuse creek]

Maybe there’s a standard yarn ball size

[stoic moth]

twine is a specific type of thread/cord

[stoic moth]

Yeah probably

[obtuse creek]

Idk then lol maybe it’s just braided silk

[stoic moth]

as someone who works with cordage a lot its like your fake godseeker english

[obtuse creek]

Yeah can I get uhhh fourteen measures of the double strength silk

No clue how much a measure is lol

[vestal swan]

It's also full of strings capable of projecting the beads and it could just be reading them that way

Or gears

[obtuse creek]

The number of beats in a measure is completely variable even within the same time signature

[stoic moth]

it's like saying "can i get 20 squares of rectangle"

[obtuse creek]

Well I guess dependent on how you count a beat. I suppose technically it’s the same

But different time signatures exist like lol

[solid cypress]

Rosaries hold holy attributes. While Hornet uses her future vision, she is protected from mental damage by rosaries, which cause the rosaries to disappear and relocate to her dream's death location. (I'm on drugs)

[vestal swan]

Here's an idea to throw a gear in the works
It's all music based, things cost differently depending on how well you sing, how fast etc

[obtuse creek]

A 3/4 measure has the equivalent of 3 quarter notes in it and a 9/8 measure has 9 eighth notes

(Or equivalent. It doesn’t literally have 9 notes every time)

[solid cypress]

Symphony Of Pharloom includes godseekers who use frequencies matching each God's soul to intensify their powers.

[obtuse creek]

I don’t think we get to see what a measure of anything is

I want to say it’s probably also a multiple of 4

But like. 12/4? 16/4? these are sicko time signatures

[solid cypress]

By calling Everbloom the First Light, Team Cherry implied that they cooked up the lores for Pale beings' origins as well as their relations to Void. This means it'll be explained in DLCs or sequel.

[obtuse creek]

Lumble has 16 rosaries total so like. If he’s carrying a measure of them that’d check out.

[stoic moth]

16/4 is fuckass but probably wht they use

[obtuse creek]

Standard rosary necklace size seems to be 60-120

Others are like nonstandard due to damage or having some beads replaced with more valuable ones

[muted lantern]

ccmacis video was pretty good

[stray fog]

I know people here hate the new mossbag video, but I liked one of the theories in it

The hallownest weavers that went to pharloom are the weavers of weavenest absolom

we fand the foresight item there. It is shaped like a wyrm's head, and its similar to "farsight", a wyrm ability. So maybe they drew inspiration from the pale king.

Weavenest absolom is in the abyss, so maybe the weavers saw what the pale king did with the void and got an idea to use void against gms.

This could also explain how there is an arcane egg in pharloom. The weavers brought it there from hallownest

[timber pond]

Yeah Except for the Insinuation that team chery is just like "the lore only goesas far as you find it hehe :3!"

[muted lantern]

when did he say that?

[timber pond]

Just the like "well these endings Are cannon after these endings" thing

[muted lantern]

i mean he said that as "this ending is the most thematically in line with this ending" not saying one is explicitly canon to the other

[obtuse creek]

Anyway a heavy rosary necklace is a standard 120 rosary necklace where 25 of the rosaries are shell rosaries. A pale rosary necklace doesn’t make mathematical sense if it has 120 rosaries on it lol

Wait hold up

Yeah nvm lol

You can’t get to 340 from just 1 and 15 where there has to be 120 units

[timber pond]

It sure seemed like he was saying "each respective ending happens after each Correlating hollow knight ending" which i think is reductive kinda but whatever the rest of the video was good.

[stray fog]

This is the kinda shit we are supposed to do while waiting for the third game

Not so soon

[muted lantern]

thats not what i got at all? i don't think thats what he said, could you give me a timestamp?

[timber pond]

Just the whole "Hks Cannon Endings" section

[obtuse creek]

A pale rosary necklace is a standard 120 rosary necklace where ~15.75 of the rosaries on it are pearl rosaries lol

[muted lantern]

i mean iirc he literally said whatever ending could be canon to like weaver queen, then follows it up with saying thematically the hollow knight ending fits best. are we talking the same section?

[obtuse creek]

Team cherry!!! This mathematical discrepancy must be corrected. I propose the pale necklace is repriced to 344 rosaries posthaste

[muted lantern]

what if hornet is bad at math

[timber pond]

Yeah, but going Foward this might not be true so it doesn't really age well tbh. I dont know how they can keep that sort of "equivalence" in line (if that's team cherry's intent) If they make a game about The Hollow Knight lets say.

[muted lantern]

yeah but he didnt state it as fact, he just said it matched thematically

[obtuse creek]

There’s no way to make a lore accurate 120 bead necklace of beads representing 1 and 15 that’s worth 340 irl now I’m sad

[solid cypress]

they prob dropped the whole every ending is canon or tried to keep it by not mentioning THK or anything related, except sealed siblings

[obtuse creek]

The only way to do it is have a 116 bead necklace where 100 of the beads are standard plain rosaries and 16 are pearl

Rather than 120, the size that the heavy and regular rosary necklaces are

This like actually kind of bothers me!

What were they thinking, refunded, etc

[stray fog]

Some vendors charge extra for tying strings into necklaces, so there must be a labour cost for each necklace, resulting in extra worth

[obtuse creek]

I mean the actual number of beads on the necklace lol

[solid cypress]

Why must there be 120 beads on them

[hushed viper]

and assuming full chamber is like is like, similiar to the high halls gaunlet, that prob means even the bigger guys were there too

[solid cypress]

If you assume there are 60 beads on a Pale Necklace, the numbers are fine. 20 pearls and 40 rosaries.

But the numbers 60/120 seem arbitrary

[obtuse creek]

The numbers are:
frayed string: 30 red beads (half a string lost due to damage)
regular string: 60 red beads (half a necklace)
regular necklace: 120 red beads
heavy necklace: 95 red beads, 25 black beads (totaling 120)
pearl necklace: 100 red beads, 16 pearl beads (totaling 116!!! Why!!!)

[solid cypress]

Maybe Pearl necklace has fewer because Pearl is three times more valuable than Shell

[obtuse creek]

Ah but you see, 60 beads would be a pale string

[solid cypress]

No idea what this means, I assume it's a gotcha you didn't remember every item's name correctly?

Or is it a joke and I am dense

[obtuse creek]

I mean that a string of rosaries is 60. A necklace is 120. So if it was only 60 beads it wouldn’t be a necklace, it’d be a string

[solid cypress]

Ah, I see, I see

[obtuse creek]

I’m half joking but yeah lol

In order to correct this crime against order the pale necklace must be changed to be worth 344, instead of 340 rosaries in the next patch. The people demand it

[solid cypress]

What if there are 140 beads on it

[obtuse creek]

Like if there wasn’t the 20 rosary surcharge?

[solid cypress]

No, I was drunk, my mental math gone wrong

[obtuse creek]

I’m annoyed at how much this actually bugs me given how there’s no way I would have noticed if I hadn’t manually checked

Team cherry you will answer for your crimes one day

[solid cypress]

Actually

Nvm

But why would a necklace mandate 120+ beads. What if it's based on circumference. Pearls look bigger.

If we assume they're all made from the same material, we can calculate the circumference of a standard necklace and translate it to Pearl Necklace

Otherwise, we'll have to do pixel counting on the sprites to get the values

There are plenty of satisfactory solutions once we get past the assumption that necklaces must have around 120 beads.

I theorise it has 60 beads, 20 of which are Pearls. 2 rosaries are included between each Pearl.

[left fog]

Just how powerful were the rulers of old

For some sort power to remain in their hearts

[quick geyser]

Probably very powerful 🤔

In all seriousness, We don’t really have that much knowledge about them. So if you want to do some inverse powerscaling shenanigans, it gonna be a hard time

HOWEVER, we do know that Crust king khan and his tribe was the last to stand against GMS

[left fog]

Is it possible that Faith in a ruler gives them power?

[quick geyser]

That sounds cool but I don’t recall it being mentioned? What gives you that idea

[left fog]

Well it connects to the idea of pale beings creating kingdom they rule. So what if a common bug had ruled instead? Its possible for a normal bug to reach high realms of strength by having faith of its people strengthen them

Most of the old hearts belong to beings who have some great history and they were once a ruler

[quick geyser]

Yeah but higher beings In general ARE stated to be able to gain strength from the faith of their believers. If a common bug can do so too, what makes the difference between both of them?

I think that the reason why crust king khan tribe was able to last so long was due to how organized military was. I mean, even before GMS arrival, they took up multiple areas in silksong

[left fog]

Maybe a common bug must make great achievements in their life or maybe from inheritance

Most of the old hearts still beat in after death

[quick geyser]

What about Nyleth? Nyleth didn’t really have a “dedicated follower” in the traditional sense. In fact, she isn’t even like a normal bug

She is just this goddess of shellwood.

[stray fog]

When gms finally dies, will her shade be in the abyss? Or are shades formed through a specific process?

[left fog]

Hmmmm

Twist and turns

[quick geyser]

GMS doesn’t have a shade. Only vessels really do

[lyric widget]

thanks I fixed it, I guess somebody transcribed that text from the game instead of copying from the extracted text. btw if anyone here ever finds text that seems to be incorrect or misspelled, feel free to ping me

[stray fog]

I assumed that a shade is formed when the void hollows out someone

The ancient civilization talked about shades, so I dont think they're exclusive to vessels

[quick geyser]

Yeah but the process is different

Vessels were born because their egg was placed in the abyss and allow the void to take over

GMS probably just get killed by the void

[craggy smelt]

good question
I don't think everything killed by the Void leaves a Shade though

[quick geyser]

Yep

[craggy smelt]

its a worrying thought, really

the idea that a Radiance Shade is lurking around down there

but probably not

[stray fog]

The radiance wasn't consumed by void, she was torn apart by the siblings

[craggy smelt]

she's pulled down into the Void and devoured in DNM, but ripped apart by the Knight/VGF in ETV

[stray fog]

True

[obtuse creek]

Craw memento has this which I believe is also an error

Iron emblem of the Court of Craws, absolving the bearing of all crimes past and future.

Believe it should be “bearer” here

[lyric widget]

you're right, yes. thank you! fixing it now

wait I don't see "bearing" anywhere, which page is that?

actually maybe DM me, I don't want to interrupt lore convos here

[stray fog]

Has anyone downscaled pharloom according to the ratio of Hornet and the knight's heights (because video game)

[patent brook]

So why do people get mad when you call phantom a she

[quick geyser]

You know, I’m not somebody who will get mad at you for using the wrong pronoun. But I think it might be because Phantom was referred as they/them by Hornet.
If you want to use that lore tablet where Lace said “Why sisters”, some people have argued that we don’t know who is talking to who.

[patent brook]

oh so they think the one in the tube was talking not lace that is looking at phantom and so obviously talking to her

I dont know if the hunter's journal is the best source hornet just fought phantom she doesnt know anything about her

[quick geyser]

Yeah I think it kind of dumb too 😭
But some people stated that one can be called “sisters” and still use they them pronouns

[patent brook]

thats some new science to me

its just annoying that people will call you hitler when even they are not sure about it

and I would argue they have less of a point

[supple echo]

why does the shamans call Hornet the "Old One"?

[patent brook]

cuz she is old

she is part wyrm part weaver she lives way longer than the average bug

[timber pond]

The thread That you play the needolin to goes where lace is standing and Lace is looking up to Phantom sleeping in a tube

[timber pond]

Now i know cut content isnt cannon, but there were some proto Phantoms called the "Organ sleepers"

[quick geyser]

We just asking for the sake of asking now 😭

[patent brook]

yeah I genuinely dont know how it can be more obvious who is talking

like team cherry were this close 🤏 to make the scene voice acted

[supple echo]

she's old,

[quick geyser]

I’m old!

[timber pond]

Like Come on guys i know our lore can be a little difficult sometimes but Team cherry isn't trying to "Tricktony Le Tobyfox Deltarune" us By Making the tilt of someone's head mean something lol

[dawn sluice]

i wonder what sherma thought of trobbio coming to songclave

[lusty tree]

he probably wore normal clothes to put up the wish

like how actors dress normally to avoid fans

[dawn sluice]

also i love how he put "the tormented one" on the wishboard

[lusty tree]

wait he did?

i didn't read the wish at all ngl

[shell oracle]

Theory groal the great is soul masters younger brother

[lusty tree]

soul master doesn't have wings

[dawn sluice]

soul master isnt as ugly

[shell oracle]

Groal is more handsome imo

[shell oracle]

Hiding them beneath his cloak

[craggy smelt]

groal has a generally more positive outlook on life

just look at that smile

he's gonna get so much vengeance on the Citadel, it's gonna be great

[hidden crater]

Only 2 mossgrubs tall

[dawn sluice]

maybe 2 and a half

[shell oracle]

Yippee

[hidden crater]

Groal looks like the crackhead version of soul master

[sharp valley]

different weaver types, their spine things are different

[zenith gorge]

My question about groal is more regarding the fact that it casts vengeful spirit
So like yeah that power comes from the snail shaman
And hum… why is it that two shaman across the world use the same spell ?
Are they somehow the same ? That would be weird

[rugged sigil]

theyre prob just both inflated from improper use of soul

[dawn sluice]

for the same reason that both first sinner and pure vessel use a kind of "rune rage"
if something is effective with a specific system then two kingdoms might use it despite not being in the same area
or it just spread somehow via weavers/shamans leaving

like how agriculture evolved independently

[rugged sigil]

i wonder if the hermits in ss had their own unique spells

[zenith gorge]

PV and first sinner use really different spells
That vengeful spirit is clearly the absolute exact same, if they wanted to make a similar looking fireball they had plenty of opportunities
It seems intentional

[dawn sluice]

well one involves highly complex runes and the other is literally just a flying face

[rugged sigil]

its missing the face for sme reason

[dawn sluice]

it couldve spread via migration of snail shamans

which makes sense considering hk's snail shaman has several relatives, one of which knew shade soul, which is literally just vengeful spirit but better

[rugged sigil]

we dont even know if techniques are exclusive to each shaman though

yeah like the ones that give you the upgrades prob know the base form

[dawn sluice]

yeah
so it probably wasnt exclusive

[rugged sigil]

also the techniques can be taught as the vengeful spirit one teaches it to the knight

[dawn sluice]

well it seems like its less of it being taught and moreso absorbed

thats how it goes for pretty much every spell in both games

[sharp valley]

groal has a snail shaman corpse in a hut next to his arena, the snail shaman probably got captured by groal and forced to teach him soul magic

[rugged sigil]

just found out that shaman was trying to make an alliance with the stiltkin

"Went seekin' alliance with those basic bugs of the swamps. Thought they'd both gain from the union... Scheming defiance, or some such stupidity!"

-caretaker

[fresh badger]

basic bugs
Holy shit caretaker is a racist lying scumbag

[fresh badger]

Indeed, especially since desolate dive was extracted from the sanctum shaman and absorbed by SM, then later SM loses the spell from being smacked around and TK absorbs it

And the snail shaman calls vengeful spirit a gift, not a teaching

And silksong shows us like, shaman spell recipes to produce this material spell that can be exchanged with others

[winter thicket]

Mb I didn't mean to send that

https://tenor.com/view/sad-sorry-im-sorry-stitch-apologetic-gif-17669790902581588779

[shell oracle]

Cuz he's soul masters younger brother

[steady yacht]

The snail shamans are indeed a "family" so its likely that they met and knew each other before

[exotic vortex]

why do hk and ss not change after beating the game?

like it feels like it does nothing at all

[steady yacht]

That's how a game ends...you end and that's it...admitedly silksong and hollow knight are games where the endings feel anticlimactic

You don't get closure with any of the other characters

[exotic vortex]

bit sad though

[timber pond]

Nah Except for Embrace the void

That shit hype

[exotic vortex]

post game content would be nice

[steady yacht]

Ok it's hype but it's literally a cliffhanger ending

[steady yacht]

At the very least a credits sequence with the characters post game would be nice

[abstract rivet]

I would love it too but endings where we make interpretations is kinda cool

[exotic vortex]

yeah

[exotic vortex]

that is a good point

[timber pond]

Well yeah and that's what makes it hype. Because it means The Hollow Knight might DO something.

[fair tusk]

arent mask bound to the user? like, not being able to take them off unless using force

[exotic vortex]

I just wish it didnt leave you how it was before

like in the ending with ll it just puts you back there

and you can just go fight again

its nice to fight but it doesnt feel like you do anything

[abstract rivet]

Was the citadel entirely controlled by Conductors or the other two factions, Vaultkeepers and Architects had some influence aswell? Or they directly served the Conductors

[random aspen]

i think thats what tc wants us to do

[abstract rivet]

ye

[random aspen]

as much as i want an epilogue for silksong

it wont really make sense if you think about it

[abstract rivet]

yeah

It just won’t be cool to the formula of Hollow Knight

[exotic vortex]

they all had a large portion of power I think

[random aspen]

i dont think archtiects had any power tbh

[exotic vortex]

weavers at the top then conductors then vaultkeepers then architects

[random aspen]

they were all just robots making other robots

unless the 1st architect wasnt a robot

[exotic vortex]

they still had more power than normal citizens

[abstract rivet]

No i’m talking about when Weavers gave the control to conductors and then dipped

[exotic vortex]

yeah just remove weavers from the list then

still same order of power

[random aspen]

they were probably valued more but i dont think they had more power tbh

[abstract rivet]

sentinels are really fishy

Those motherfuckers are either proud patriots and knights or pro colonization pro genocide evil clankers

[random aspen]

and vaultkeepers were simply just trusted with all the knowledge and stuff and trusted enough that they wont share it with normal citadel folk

i dont think they had much authority just knowledge

[abstract rivet]

They worked in a circle i just wanna know the hierarchy

[shrewd geyser]

Yeah they had a more religious role if that makes sense

[random aspen]

which will obviously put them above most of citadel

[shrewd geyser]

Their pontiff and what not.

[steady yacht]

We know the Conductors were at the Top

[abstract rivet]

Vaultkeepers are just priests or soemthing

[shrewd geyser]

More like sacred librarians

[abstract rivet]

whats a pontiff again

my english is only B2 gng

[steady yacht]

The head of the whispering vaults

[shrewd geyser]

High ranking religious figure.

[abstract rivet]

Ah alr

[random aspen]

ignoring weavers and gms it would be something like conductors, vaultkeepers, architects, choir bugs, the fucking cogwork robots, underworkers

[steady yacht]

They and the conductors seem to be some of the few bugs who knew what the citadel was for

[steady yacht]

And then below them are the Silkflies used for the goddamn light fixtures

[abstract rivet]

Well the vault guys (not vaultkeepers) were raised in dark places and they only learn and memorize scrolls that serve a fake religion which is very sad

[random aspen]

i think conductors would unironically put gleamfies above underworkers

[shrewd geyser]

The Silkflies which were recycled corpses basically

[abstract rivet]

The Slab Wardens also were forced to work as it was the only way to make up for absolum or something

[random aspen]

they do power the robots

[abstract rivet]

Silkflies are basically evil corpses

[random aspen]

and the architect

[steady yacht]

It's somehow related to the first sinner

[fair tusk]

ima ask this again, arent mask bound to the user? like, not being able to take them off unless using force

[steady yacht]

Yeah

[shrewd geyser]

The flies were forced to be the jailors for a crime so horrible it caused their entire lineage to be sentenced

[abstract rivet]

First Sinner probably got locked up by the Weavers because she thinks Weavers are not divine and for the Stone Citadel to have decent control, they must be introduced and known as Divine Species

[random aspen]

wtf did they even do 💔

[abstract rivet]

Her fight is also in most likely a memory as we don’t get a cocoon after dying.

[steady yacht]

Helped first sinner

[fair tusk]

then what is up with phantom? she aint wearing her mask at the start (when she is playing the organ) and she seems to re-adjust after every single attack? also styx changes masks for different identities

[hidden crater]

Exist

[steady yacht]

Our tool don't get refilled tho

[shrewd geyser]

As is with most things in hollow knight, incredibly unclear!

[random aspen]

honestly the slab dudes are paid more than underworkers thats not bad

[hidden crater]

What is clear is that lace is only 2 mossgrubs tall

[random aspen]

and theyre imprisoning like 3 people

[shrewd geyser]

Lol

[abstract rivet]

We gotta kill the flies to put an end to their gruesome and disgusting species

[shrewd geyser]

Also more like 7-8 but yeah

[abstract rivet]

Go Hornet

[steady yacht]

Phantom's mask is something that's being undone due to them basically being on their last legs
Masks are not something bugs are usually born with it appears but something given as a way of shaping their identity

[abstract rivet]

all my homies vibe with Hornet

[hidden crater]

Who gets paid more

Bugs who smell like pure unfettered ass or bugs that work so much they die from exhaustion

[steady yacht]

So basically a creature's mask is usually permanent but there are special cases like styx who seem to be mimicks

[abstract rivet]

Underworks were probably inferior to Jailors

[fair tusk]

checks out

[shrewd geyser]

Nosk, too.

[random aspen]

the slab is such a radical name for a prison

[fair tusk]

iirc, first sinner was the one "who raged against the silken lie" aka discovering weavers were uplifted by gms, not born divine, not daugthers

[shrewd geyser]

Also i figure Phantom having to constsantly keep her mask from falling off has to do witj her silken nature

[abstract rivet]

Citadel is a corrupted theocracy idk what’s the exact political ideology of them, totalitarian aswell

Except the theocracy they use is for a religion thats proven false so its basically nothing burger

[steady yacht]

Seems to be considering it doesn't look like Lace has one

So maybe the Mask is a way for Phantom to forge their own identity or something

[abstract rivet]

who tf made the citadel golden

[steady yacht]

The conductors likely

in order to lure more pilgrims in

Honestly the timeline is very confusing cause GMS somehow made both Lace and Phantom in her sleep

[shrewd geyser]

It also helps that the weird greeter guy in vaults seemed to be made of a much less visually appealing metal

So it didnt seem like the weavers were gilding their stuff

[steady yacht]

There are also some bizarre timeline stuff like the green prince stuff

Hornet: You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.

[abstract rivet]

Mf be doing anything in her sleep but waking up

higher beings these days smh

[steady yacht]

Like it makes it sound like GMS was the direct reason the princes lost verdania

[abstract rivet]

Maybe Hornet wasn’t educated

[shrewd geyser]

I think its also somewhat telling that the only signs of life you find in current day verdania are Pharlids

[abstract rivet]

Stupid hornet

[steady yacht]

But then the timeline goes:

Green Prince #1 Sells soul to citadel -> Gets Stuffed into Cogwork Dancers -> Verdania Collapses -> Green Prince #2 gets locked in Gay Baby Jail

GMS kinda has to be asleep throughout this whole sequence

[fair tusk]

didnt gp2 lock himself there

[misty stirrup]

Imo makes sense that the Citadels pollution destroyed Verdania, and GMS waking up with the haunting collapsed the caves

[shrewd geyser]

Nnno. I dont think he did

[shrewd geyser]

Also this.

[steady yacht]

He might've just given himself up to the Roach Guards

"Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise."
-There's also this line

[misty stirrup]

I do not think she destroyed the kingdom in her sleep , her "tossing" to wake up literally shakes the earth and since Verdania is a cave system , it probably just collapsed

[steady yacht]

Like does it mean that GMS was basically always controlling this

[misty stirrup]

Though by that point Verdania was probably a wasteland

[abstract rivet]

I think GMS was thought to be the highest power

Though thats not the case wither

there’s some things that conflict between citadels or GMS’ evil doings

[misty stirrup]

No, the entire point of the citadel, and therefore of Pharloom is to keep gms trapped.

[wary sorrel]

I have a question ,is silk the same as infection?

[abstract rivet]

I’ve seen a ton of ppl assume Underworks were made by GMS in Youtube

[shrewd geyser]

NO obviously not

[hidden crater]

We have too many muckmaggots send that shit to clearwater NOW

[misty stirrup]

Therefore she's the only one who "clutched" the kingdom. She was never in charge of anything

[fossil ledge]

To some extent she's always been aware. The Weavers describe building one of the Weavenests deep below to "escape her silken sight"

[steady yacht]

" You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."

That all makes sense...but what the hell does Hornet mean by this

[misty stirrup]

Tbh this dialogue doesn't make much sense

[steady yacht]

Like.....it sounds like the destruction of verdania was directly caused by GMS

[fossil ledge]

I hate this line lol

[abstract rivet]

Silk is material made by Soul as the source material, It can heal wounds and extend life, however their God is really evil and the bugs that had silk implanted fell into her control easier though I think she can haunt people without silk implantation

[misty stirrup]

PK or WL never told anybody worship or die nor did GMS for that matter

It can be read as perhaps an eventuality? Like an ironic fate

[steady yacht]

Same with Hornet's entire reasoning for entering GP's memory

[misty stirrup]

Like PK's kingdoms fell and thus the bugs died

[abstract rivet]

weavers its weavers’ doings

[misty stirrup]

So that was a fate brought on by pale beings

[fossil ledge]

Thing is, "devotion or destruction" implies devotion leaves a way out

[abstract rivet]

Devotion of Destruction is a trait of Pale Beings

[misty stirrup]

Yea but like GMS didn't show up to Verdania "worship me or die"

She was a bit comatose for that

I like the interpretation that Hornet is a bit of a biased narrator here, being biased against pale beings

[abstract rivet]

Didn’t Verdania give prince soul to the Citadel (not GMS) to keep the kingdom safe

[misty stirrup]

"I will leave you alone to grief" we js lying for no reason now

[fossil ledge]

It's the only thing that makes sense. Cause WL and PK never demanded anyone worship them, much less destroy them if they refused

[abstract rivet]

tbh we did an favour to Green Prince

[steady yacht]

"...Bind their shells... ...Bind their souls... ...Bind them all... ...To devote... Eternal... ...One mind... One union... ...They are ours... Bound forever..." -Whiteward Memory

[misty stirrup]

Yes, it's even described as naive to believe that Citadel would uphold their bargain

[abstract rivet]

He was whining too much what a salty loser

im satire btw

[misty stirrup]

The Haunting is caused by being too devout or not devout enough. It seems to be an opt out system (currently)

[abstract rivet]

Green Prince whines more than my teammates in Counter Strike

stupid mantis

[steady yacht]

It's caused by the Whiteward experiments actually

[misty stirrup]

Not only. The Skarr for example mistake the Haunting for Karmelita's song

I remember it being describes as a Siren song ... I just don't know where

[fossil ledge]

Aren't regular beasts also haunted, though?

[abstract rivet]

Silk Implantation probably only makes haunting easier, its not the sole reason why it can screw over a bugs mind

[misty stirrup]

Not devout enough - no mind to refuse

[shrewd geyser]

Who said Nyleth wasnt a higher being

[random aspen]

never stated

[fossil ledge]

I mean, "not devout enough" implies devotion of any kind in the first place, no?

[misty stirrup]

Though the Haunting probably isn't a fully conscious effort/ GMS doesn't have full control over it

[abstract rivet]

I think it also falls down to strong will vs weak will though you can correct me

[fossil ledge]

Same as the infection

[misty stirrup]

Ballador doesn't seem particularly strong willed

[abstract rivet]

that mf has strong knowledge about things and is kind of wise tho

[fossil ledge]

More like a strong mind, I'd say

[abstract rivet]

Those people are the types we see that aren’t haunted by haunting/infection

[misty stirrup]

He's lowk Holden Bloodfeast

[abstract rivet]

He’s just on Life Support rn

[steady yacht]

"In the air. The water. Everywhere. Inside their shells. Twisted inside. Guts. Tightest around heart. Pulsing rhythm. Sick. Alive. Dead? Something worse. Deeper. Must look deeper."

It appears that the Silk itself is the main aspect of the haunting...damn thing is nearly everywhere

That's the doctors lore tablets

[misty stirrup]

Well yea, all the Silk is part of GMS. Using her silk especially having it part of you ... is like her literally being a part of you

[shrewd geyser]

I like to think of the haunting as a byproduct of Grandmother Silk's awakening. Maybe not even something she's consciously doing, just something thats happening now.

[misty stirrup]

Tbh agree with this, otherwise I don't see why haunted bugs would try to kill Hornet

[steady yacht]

She's conscious tho:
The Whiteward and Lace memories confirm that

[misty stirrup]

Also act3 haunted bugs still attack you , and the flies send you to jail instead of the cradle

[shrewd geyser]

I didnt say she isnt conscious

I said she isnt consciously causing the haunting to happen

[misty stirrup]

The Haunting is just GMS' fever dream

[cedar owl]

It is a byproduct of her awakening but she is consciously doing it. She says it
"They are ours... Bound forever..."

[shrewd geyser]

....oh, huh.

[misty stirrup]

Ok we need a better abbreviation for Grandma. GMS sounds like seasoning

[cedar owl]

mother

[shrewd geyser]

Meemaw Silk

[abstract rivet]

GMS doing fucking ANYTHING but waking up

Just say you’re a sleepy gurl

[misty stirrup]

"5 more minutes" - Silk probably

[steady yacht]

Seems like she decided to use the Haunting as a way to gain complete control over the bugs ironically since the whole system meant to keep her captive caused her to gain complete control

[random aspen]

just stick to gms 🥀

[misty stirrup]

Silk rolls of the tongue better than Gee Em Es

[cedar owl]

it was less the system of song keeping her asleep that caused the haunting and more the fact that the citadel was milking her like a cow for her silk

[misty stirrup]

Also the haunting may be related to her (subconscious?) going OH Shit as the Cog core was nearly completed

[valid coral]

Also her silk being intertwined with pharloom for probably decades by the time the haunting starts

[abstract rivet]

Tbh Elden Ring bosses have mid naming too so its not that big of a deal js look at Promised Consort Radahn or Radagon of The Golden Order

[misty stirrup]

Though I'm not sure what the plan was with sacrificing the weaverspawn

[random aspen]

last judge 🔥 ✍️

[misty stirrup]

Did they just throw the weavers at the ball like hurling them into the sun?

[shrewd geyser]

Watcher at the Edge 🔥

[abstract rivet]

Goddess of Silk, Pharloom’s Beast

[random aspen]

dude aura farms just to have 2 attacks

[abstract rivet]

he has like 4 twin

[steady yacht]

The Whiteward was made to ensure the bugs where forever singing the song to keep GMS sleepy
Oath of the Whiteward
"While song must be sung, none may falter.
Infirmity. Sickness. Death.
All are banished from our Citadel.

[misty stirrup]

Potential watcher vs sandcarvers

[shrewd geyser]

Does watcher at the edge have lore significance beyond: Being the last standing Karak soldier and keeping watch over Karak's edge?

[steady yacht]

pretty much it

[misty stirrup]

They were getting the Silk directly from her cocoon

[abstract rivet]

Whats the boss that has the most moves anyway

[cedar owl]

he doesn't need more than two to drag your ass on the pavement

[valid coral]

The memento implies that Karak would return to it's initial form once water returns to it

[shrewd geyser]

Oh, interesting.

[steady yacht]

and also throw themself into the sandcarvers

[abstract rivet]

doesn’t Karak mean a strong fortified area

[random aspen]

he up slashes and slashes forward and occasionally blocks thats all he does

[shrewd geyser]

I will say i think skong lore is a lot more interesting tk me than hk lore

[valid coral]

Which the coral tower very much was

[abstract rivet]

Sands of Karak isn’t coral gorge tbh, Coral Gorge is SoK + Blasted Steps is

[shrewd geyser]

It feels so much more diverse and interconnected

[abstract rivet]

sands of karak was hard to traverse through to be fair

[valid coral]

Sands of karak was the heart of coral gorge most likely

[misty stirrup]

Hot take themes: Skong. But antagonist: HK

[abstract rivet]

Damn Team Cherrys only original naming scheme

[valid coral]

With it extending out into Blasted Steps

[abstract rivet]

I’m so proud how far they’ve come

Verdania and Sands of Karak

Not shit like fucking Greenpath or Godhome or Kingdoms Edge

[stray fog]

Some old footage showed blasted steps like architecture in the cut coral area

[steady yacht]

Ehhhh I do prefer GMS as a villain due to the Lace and Phantom stuff but I wish what she did was actually explained

[shrewd geyser]

Thats kinda fair

[abstract rivet]

Yes the judge enemies were also apart of it

[valid coral]

Some old screenshots literally showed judges in red coral gorge

[random aspen]

gms has more depth than the radiance

[shrewd geyser]

But it feels like silksong has the entire citadel as the antagonist rather than silk

[stray fog]

I agree

[random aspen]

radiance is just raging

[abstract rivet]

We’ve seen signs for coral area concepts indicating this might be DLC content, Team Cherry won’t disappoint us. Team Cherry will not disappoint us

[steady yacht]

Radiance is just:
Everyone forgot me so I got angry
Also I HATE THE VOID RAHHH

[random aspen]

shes just angry cus the moths dont gaf about her anymore

[stray fog]

Gms wasn't even that evil

The weavers and conductors were far worse

[steady yacht]

She literally is tho

[abstract rivet]

Our holy cherrydel will uphold their holy coral song to us silkgrims

[valid coral]

We hope eternal for the ancient kingdoms DLC 🙏

[misty stirrup]

GMS is more of a nuanced and tragic character, but it doesn't really come across ngl. Radiance is just hype moments and aura and it kinda works

[stray fog]

Not as much as weavers

[valid coral]

GMS is just standard pale being (worship me or die)

[stray fog]

What does this mean😭

[abstract rivet]

Conductors weren’t the biggest tool in the shed

[steady yacht]

I think the Haunting is like infinitly worse then most of what they did

[abstract rivet]

GMS is very evil though

[random aspen]

she is mega selfish and evil brodie

[stray fog]

The weavers fucked over the entire population of pharloom for their own freedom

[random aspen]

the entire existence of lace should tell you that

[valid coral]

Most pale beings are just assholes apparently

[abstract rivet]

Evilness Meteer

1. Weavers and Stone Citadel
2. GMS
3. Post Weaver Citadel

[random aspen]

she makes lace just cus she doesnt wanna be alone and forces her to rely on her

grown ass woman btw

[valid coral]

We just happened to be in the kingdom of one who wasn't a major asshole in HK

[shrewd geyser]

How are the weavers #1 on the evil list

[steady yacht]

And then there's phantom

[abstract rivet]

They caused the most amount of shit to be honest

[shrewd geyser]

i

[misty stirrup]

The weavers did mass enslavement though and they're at least partially responsible for whiteward

[valid coral]

Everyone you meet who knew weavers calls them a different type of asshole

[shrewd geyser]

Wait, really?

[random aspen]

treats weavers like ass and then gets confused why they dont like her

[steady yacht]

If GMS sucked so much that the Weavers were willing to do all of that.

[misty stirrup]

GMS doesn't get to do much because she isn't allat active in the story

[abstract rivet]

Colonized Pharloom, fucked down areas for a gilded lie, lied to people and made slavery disguised as an holy thing

[shrewd geyser]

To be clear, post weaver citadel did this.

[misty stirrup]

Silkflies come from the silk syphon, we see silk flies used in automatons and weavenests

[valid coral]

Like shakras tribe literally has ghost stories about weavers (iirc)

[abstract rivet]

and not only that they didn’t do a proper burial or honouring for corpses of bugs they mocked it by making them light sources

[shrewd geyser]

As far as i could tell, post weaver citadel did all the bad shit.

[steady yacht]

She is both the most active and least active character in the story since she's the entire reason hornet gets kidnapped.

[valid coral]

And then dumped their corpses in furnaces to recycle

[steady yacht]

despite the game saying she's sleeping

[random aspen]

the weavers convinced them to do it to keep gms asleep

[stray fog]

The religion must have been made up when the citadel was started

[random aspen]

whispering and shit

seducing friends and shit

[abstract rivet]

Stone Citadel aka Weaver Citadel did that

[misty stirrup]

Not only her, conductors first captured weavers. GMS picked up the torch

[steady yacht]

The religon was made by the weavers as a way to keep GMS "asleep":
Last words of the Weavers.

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

[stray fog]

Yes

[valid coral]

Debatable? The choruses likely would have been sent to eliminate the order during weaver time

[shrewd geyser]

Idk how true that is exactly.

[misty stirrup]

The weavers share the same pale being nature. A great deal as to why they dethroned GMS is so that they could be top dog. The very first thing they do when she's gone is install themselves as gods

[shrewd geyser]

Im looking at Pious Isamor's dialouge specifically

[valid coral]

Karak was one of the last old kingdoms to fall so it may have fallen to post weaver citadel rerouting the water

[random aspen]

OMG he says grim ITS THE TROUPE!!!

there were unironically people saying that btw

[valid coral]

Verdania and the Skarr also likely fell to post weaver citadel

[misty stirrup]

Skarr fell because Karmelita can't sing anymore , so deff post citadel

[shrewd geyser]

Pious Isamor is saying stuff about pilgrims giving their voice to the song

[valid coral]

Also their backstory explicitly mentions the haunting (iirc) so they were also one of the last to fall

[shrewd geyser]

Post weaver citadel is a lot more: "Come chill out at our great citadel with all this cool stuff"

[valid coral]

"haha jk slave away for your sins dummy"

[stray fog]

In the memory after lace 2, who is the speaker?

"better a child spun mad, than them" sounds like gms complaining about the weavers

"from our silk, a child born loyal". The weavers must have said that, because of the use of "our"

So who is the actual speaker?

[shrewd geyser]

Feels like the weavers were being a fair bit more upfront about what they were doing than the citadel

[misty stirrup]

Who fell to whom:
Nyleth - ???? Absorbed into shellwood?
Karak - GMS (possibly? Im not sure)
Verdania - Citadel
Skarr - Karmelita got laryngitis

[steady yacht]

It's also likely that this song used to drive away the haunting is why Sherma is safe

[valid coral]

Karak may have been the citadel rerouting water to High Halls

[shrewd geyser]

Karak fell to post weaver citadel siphoning ALL their water.

[misty stirrup]

I'm not sure; the tower is the water source. I think it was just unrelated

[shrewd geyser]

i fail to see how itd be unrelated

[misty stirrup]

And the karak just went tardigrade till it returns

[shrewd geyser]

There arent many other places where you could get that much water

[random aspen]

allat water just for 1 hot spring

[steady yacht]

GMS refers to herself as Our constantly
...One to wish our waking...
Likely due to the hivemind of the haunting

[misty stirrup]

They'd have to take control of the coral tower to divert water

[stray fog]

Oh

[shrewd geyser]

....hhhow come?

[misty stirrup]

The coral tower is the source of the water

[steady yacht]

...One mind... One union...
...They are ours... Bound forever...

[valid coral]

I saw it more so as the water flowed through the tower from above into the rest of the gorge

[frosty gate]

We don't know the real reason as to why Karak drained, we can speculate but it's not specified anywhere in the game

[valid coral]

Which is very plausible for the citadel to reroute that water source above for high halls and the spa's

[shrewd geyser]

Ah.

[steady yacht]

We know at the very least Karak took control of Half of Pharloom before so an invasion is likely

[misty stirrup]

Khann is also still alive imo

[valid coral]

I don't see the implication that the tower was the source of the water here

[valid coral]

Oh he is he's just crusted to high hell

[misty stirrup]

This is the tablet in the coral tower

[shrewd geyser]

You mean before we remove his heart

[frosty gate]

I mean, for sure, they were invaded, but that has nothing to do with the Water

[misty stirrup]

Yea, he's just Crusty till they spray him with some water

[abstract rivet]

high halls does NOT need that much water

[valid coral]

I see that but this doesn't explicitly mean that the source was from the tower either

[frosty gate]

The Citadel uses steam

[abstract rivet]

oh right

[valid coral]

It wasn't just used for high halls but for the entirety of the citadel

[misty stirrup]

I don't see how "at water's source" can mean anything else ngl

[valid coral]

"At waters source" and " and corals heart" implies these are different locations to me

[frosty gate]

How

[misty stirrup]

He was a conquering warlord who took half of Pharloom, there's so many things he could've done to bite the crust

[valid coral]

Or that the water is simultaneously the source of the coral

[misty stirrup]

This is the only plausible one imo

The coral tower is like their capital

[valid coral]

This is just how I'm reading it, but I see it as the source of the water being beyond the heart of coral

[frosty gate]

Yeah, the City's "heart"

"At waters source and coral's heart" means that the place is both things

"Our lord born last to rule"
He can't be born in two places

[lone folio]

trust me the citadel used so much water that it dried upp and then they used it for shower water which they then dumped into bilewater

this is clearly stated in pharloom bay lore tablet

[valid coral]

Which doesn't necessarily mean that that place is in the coral tower

[frosty gate]

Why would the Tablet be there then???

[lone folio]

why wouldnt it be there? its such a massive structure that having something that is probably even bigger is unlikely

[vestal swan]

That's like saying the "you're here" part of a map is lying

[lone folio]

why would the ruler not be at the rivers source??

[valid coral]

Mainly because the citadel taking down the coral tower with almost no signs of any corpses or anything of the sort (at least from what I can remember) doesn't add up to me

[frosty gate]

But the Citadel didn't take the Coral Tower

[lone folio]

the fuck is he doing in a random tower, thats like if the president of america lived in the shard instead of the white house (well not lived but you get the point)

[frosty gate]

No one said that

[lone folio]

they never took the coral tower

[valid coral]

That's what I thought was being implied here?

That the citadel sieged the coral tower and destroyed their water source

[frosty gate]

No, no one ever got to Coral Tower

[frosty gate]

I specifically said we don't know how the water was drained

[valid coral]

Ah

[lone folio]

no, its not stated anywhere thats they did and if that did happen whys khann just kind of chilling and hibernating with his soldiers?

[valid coral]

It could also be that they believed that the tower was the source of the water

[frosty gate]

We don't even know that the City is the cause of it all

[valid coral]

Honestly fair enough

[lone folio]

wait why is he at the bottom of the tower... did the top of the tower collapse forcing him to go down?

thats like if the president of the united states didnt even live at the top of the shard but rather at the bottom of it

[valid coral]

Karak could have fallen to the passage of time like the Skarr

[valid coral]

My guess is once the water dried up what was left of it pooled at the bottom of the tower

[frosty gate]

Ok, I take it back, the Citadel is at fault of Draining Karak, but i still find something really weird

Maybe the Slab was part of the Karak's

[unique canopy]

Maybe the source of the water was melted snow and ice from Mt. Fay, and the construction of the Slab dammed it all up

[frosty gate]

I still don't know where they exactly got the Water for the Citadel tho

But it had to be around that area

The Slab's Bridge has the ducts in the background

[terse warren]

Do you think the first time the British found America it was where the White House is now?

[trail wagon]

Do we know any of hornets mates

Zamn they got a baddie

[steady yacht]

none

[trail wagon]

bruh

[lone folio]

Fair

[valid coral]

It's explicitly said all of them died long before Silksong

[steady yacht]

All we know is they lived...they dated hornet...they died

that is all

[lone folio]

Nah they just all died

[trail wagon]

Bruh

[valid coral]

Nyeleth is the most mysterious old heart to me

[frosty gate]

I wonder when the fuck did Hornet have time to have mates

[frosty gate]

Why?

[valid coral]

All we know about her is that she was the source of Shellwood and she let the pilgrims pass safely

Beyond that? Not much

[valid coral]

Grace period before THK started leaking infection?

[valid coral]

Was whatever was going on with Seth because of her or because of something else? What happened to her for only a fountain to remain? Why does the fountain stop flowing when hornet claims the heart??

[charred nimbus]

Hornet also travelled alot

She didn't need to find mates only on Hallownest

[lean temple]

She says they couldn't match her lifespan so they likely died of old age. Seems like a post Hallownest thing

[cold peak]

After watching the mossbag video there's a theory I have in regards to the main inconsistency of how there can be so many "little weavers" as enemies in hollow knight, when it's said how painful and difficult it is for weavers to have offspring

What if Pale King's bargain included more than just mating with Hera to create hornet

[rare ibex]

can someone explaion the lore of teh true ending?

[cold peak]

It's a bit of a debate on what the lore implications are for that

[rare ibex]

?

[timber pond]

In relation to what

[steady yacht]

why do those weaver kids all look so different from the PK

[cold peak]

You misunderstand where I'm going with that

[steady yacht]

then

[steady yacht]

oh wait nvm im rereading it

[cold peak]

I wasn't suggesting pale king himself gave weavers more children

BUT RATHER

[olive axle]

Why does Hornet not remember Herras face

[valid coral]

Baby

[cold peak]

What if, by using his supposed "foresight" capabilities as a wyrm, pale king helped the weavers solve their biggest problem, the difficulty of reproducing, by just guiding and selecting which weavers would have better chances to have children with as little pain and difficulty as possible

[valid coral]

Pale kings birth horoscope

[eternal cove]

Why does the Bell Beast drop a Silk Heart

[steady yacht]

GMS just hated the bell beast

[olive axle]

I don't understand

[valid coral]

Lore wise? Shitton of silk constraining it coalesced into the heart. Gameplay wise it's so you don't have to do low% cogwork core

[steady yacht]

she was too young to remember

[valid coral]

She was a baby it's a miracle she was able to even remember what herrah said to her

[olive axle]

But didn't she see her face in HK? Or was that her dreamer mask and not her true face?

[valid coral]

That was her dreamer mask and not her true weaver mask

[olive axle]

Oh

That makes sense

[vestal swan]

There's nothing suggesting she had a different Weaver mask, she just put the dreamer one on

[valid coral]

All weavers are born with masks, herrahs is probably under the cloak or something with the dreamer mask on top

[cold peak]

Because remember, for what we DO know that Pale King gave them, a singular child of his own bloodline, the weavers, in return:

• had Hera agree to become a dreamer forever
• provided Pale King with the Seal of Binding to actually keep The Hollow Knight inside the Black Egg and to keep the Radiance bound witihin its shell
• provided several spools of silk, both for the Pale King (as seen in the background of Hidden station and in Pale King's workshop), as well as parchment woven from spider silk for the entire capital of Hallownest to write stuff down on (destroyed by the rain from Blue Lake)
• possibly more aid with weaving spells and seals that Pale King used.

[valid coral]

Tbf the other weavers probably also agreed to this being fair because they get a potential GMS killer in return

[vestal swan]

While this is not a terrible idea we don't have evidence of what he actually ever used it for.
At most he saw the problem of the radiance and a way to stop her and never looked into the future again.

You would think he would keep looking into the future to ensure that he was safe for example

[valid coral]

If you consider the dreamnail dialogue in fungal core (Pale Wyrm, what use is it to foresee a fate unavoidable?) this means that despite everything he did he knew he and Hallownest would fall to the radiance in the end

[vestal swan]

I mean that is how the events unfolded yes, it's not to say that the future is unchangeable

Mr mushroom while not having foresight has something like farsight and can see many possible futures but says he cannot determine which one will come to pass

[valid coral]

It could be that he couldn't see past his own death

[vestal swan]

Basically the mushrooms are mocking him because he had the ability to see the future and still failed, it's entirely possible he could have kept looking to always be prepared.

[vestal swan]

True but he would see the fall of the kingdom again before his death arrived

Although there is one other possibility

Even though we still don't know how it works at all (the king's foresight) we know that void is magically hard to read.
Possibly by saving his kingdom with a void entity and entrusting it his future to it the future visions became clouded.
This is just one of the many possible interpretations of future sight

[valid coral]

Fair enough, the mushrooms could just be lamenting that despite being able to see the future his plan still failed

[eternal cove]

The Hollow Knight universe has become so much more interesting to analyze and discuss in the wake of Silksong

The story that's being told, the message across both games, is that not only was the Radiance not an exception, her behavior is absolutely typical
Higher beings create thralls to serve them, and if the thralls try to break rank, they will be punished and likely destroyed
Just like how IRL insects have a queen who raises disposable workers and drones to serve her, and that's their only purpose, is to obey

The Pale King, for all his problems, was trying to do better
He was trying to create something new - a colony that coexisted with other colonies, to forge a greater peace, rather than crushing all competition
A colony that respected, at least to some degree, the autonomy of the individual, rather than forcing others to serve under threat of annihilation
"A world you gave to bug and beast as never had been dreamed"

Hallownest wasn't perfect
But it was the beginning of wisdom

[vestal swan]

PK was a fraud actually

He claimed to be the only civilization standing, blew smoke up the ass of his tourists, and failed

[valid coral]

PK was better than most but still gave into his pale being urges when it came to deepnest, and unintentionally almost killed another higher being which led to his downfall

[eternal cove]

Pharloom is absolutely wretched, and considering the parallels between GMS and Radiance, I imagine most other kingdoms aren't any better
I'm not surprised why PK would think so little of the world beyond Hallownest

[vestal swan]

So one evil spider and one okay wyrm means the rest of them are also as bad as the spider?

[eternal cove]

No

I'm saying, like
Grand Mother Silk
Radiance
Nightmare Heart

Most of the higher beings we encounter are awful

[vestal swan]

The nightmare heart is not awful what

[teal horizon]

Are we sure those are even true weavers and not just regular spiders given weaver masks?

[valid coral]

Nightmare heart just comes after the party's over and uses the corpse of the kingdom to further the ritual

[vestal swan]

Radiance started off with a valid crash out and then went genocide route
GMS was always an ass from what we can tell
The nightmare heart is a scavenger that doesn't affect the people of the region

[eternal cove]

Oh, so Grumm went to the Distant Village for shits and giggles
He hid in the deepest dark to discuss his plan to turn against the Nightmare Heart for no reason then
What do you think would've happened if the Nightmare Heart heard him
Do you think it would've tried to talk things out with him and come to a solution
No, it would've destroyed him

[valid coral]

Well except for blasting organ music at 3 AM

[cedar owl]

why did you do that powder? I was just about to get rich

I would've doubled my life savings

[ionic bear]

big cluster of silk

[teal horizon]

Considering his dialogue in Silksong, he doesn't see the future, he just sees multiple presents, either at different locations or in different dimensions

[charred nimbus]

The nightmare heart feasts on dead kingdoms, how is it destroying anything?

[vestal swan]

Brumm is an idiot yes, he mistakenly thinks everybody is enslaved and when he tries to break the ritual they kick him out and leave him behind. Giving him his freedom and continuing on their merry way

You're making a wild and incorrect assumption that the heart would have killed him for betraying when we see what it does

[valid coral]

It'd be really funny if brumm voiced his complaints to the heart and it just removes his mask and boots him out of the troupe

[vestal swan]

That's basically what happened lol

[eternal cove]

Nymm wasn't "kicked out" of the troupe
He escaped the troupe

With your help, of course

[ionic bear]

i think the nightmare heart doesnt really care about anyone but grimm really

[teal horizon]

Higher beings aren't awful when they are worshipped. The Pale King was adored by his subject, Radiance was good to the moths, and GMS treated the Weavers like her children and even battled to the last drop to save Lace in the Void. They are just powerful, and don't like being betrayed, which often means anyone that betrays them has a terrible time.

[vestal swan]

His attempt was to free everyone, he gets left behind alone because they just decided to free him of his mask

[vestal swan]

Yes that's why I said it's like farsight not future site

[cedar owl]

future.com

[vestal swan]

GMS mutated a bunch of bugs lied to them about being divine and her children

[valid coral]

Two in 5 minutes?

[teal horizon]

present.shroom

[charred nimbus]

I'm not gonna lie, i problaby would've done the same thing the radiance did if i was in her place.

[valid coral]

Yeah the reason the weavers were pissed from what I could gather was that she called them her daughters and divine when they weren't

Also their own desires for dominance being impossible under her

[teal horizon]

Mutated : granting them higher sentience and incredible powers.
Lied to them about being divine and her children : That's really 1st Sinner's interpretation. They were created, in their current form, by GMS, loved by her like a mother and given divine power. The "Lie" is mostly semantic at this point

[vestal swan]

I don't think it was that they wanted to be on top and that's part of why they rebelled, it's not like they were out to rule it's just that's how they structured the religion to keep her asleep, and then they ended up liking being worshiped

[vestal swan]

You're right they should be grateful for being forcibly mutated, and forced to worship a god, and told lies about their entire existence, and cursed with extreme difficulty to have children just because she didn't want them to

[heavy gyro]

The radiance was worshipped by the moss prophet and they all died anyway

[vestal swan]

[vestal swan]

Well that was post crash out

If she wasn't already on a rampage that might have turned out better

[eternal cove]

The Moss Prophet wasn't even a child of the Pale King

They're a child of Unn

[teal horizon]

They weren't forced to worship a god. If GMS called them divine and her daughters, they wouldn't be forced to worship her

[eternal cove]

Are you dense

[teal horizon]

Do we have any indication that the curse of the children was before the rebellion?

[vestal swan]

It doesn't matter who they're a child of, also PK didn't really have "children" out in the open? His subjects were not his creations

[lean temple]

They themselves want to escape her service.

[teal horizon]

I might be, but I'd really like some quote about it

[eternal cove]

No I'm actually agreeing with you because it's a sign the Radiance was a dick

[vestal swan]

Yeah I get you I was just confused by the mention of PK's children

[cedar owl]

she certainly expected them to worhip her
and they certainly hated it considering what they did to her

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers describe GMS's reign as 'web and service eternal'

She was probably not great although we do not know the specifics

[quaint spear]

Radiance had a valid reason but she kept going later on which was a dick move yeah

[eternal cove]

The PK didn't "have children"
But his pale light turned feral animalistic bugs into sentient beings
Kinda like what happened to the Pharlids, except more of a passive thing rather than "You will serve me"

[heavy gyro]

Could gms have started slowly awakening also because the pilgrims were thinning the cocoon?

[teal horizon]

Yeah, they found out about the silken lie, and that's when they imprisoned GMS. I don't remember anything saying that they were unhappy about their life before finding out

[vestal swan]

He did not turn the beasts into bugs
He raised bugs that were close to being functional citizens into functional citizens.
Vengeflies were not paying taxes

[valid coral]

GMS awakening was probably inevitable which was why the weavers fled

[sinful nimbus]

Or they were using it as Citadel propaganda either way it doesn't matter

Atla sealed GMS to break free of an "accursed web" with 'web' being the weaver term for exploitative systems

[vestal swan]

It doesn't matter if they were happy before they found out their entire life was a lie they were being lied to about their entire life

"This kid I stole from the park 17 years ago had a great life why are they suddenly mad that I stole them!"

[sinful nimbus]

And Cindril fled GMS to escape "web and service eternal" so she clearly wasn't a good leader

[eternal cove]

I love how much bias Team Cherry has towards Dark Souls 2

[vestal swan]

You mean making a bad game?

[quaint spear]

LMAO imagine them paying taxes though😭🙏

[valid coral]

Absolom took one look at the void and decided they weren't fucking with that

[quaint spear]

Technically it could be possible to keep her locked there forever through song and choirs but...the Citadel fell silent.

[charred nimbus]

that's a great analogy actually

[teal horizon]

Well yeah, which makes me think they weren't enslaved or abused by Silk before the rebellion. 1Sinner found out about it, the others imprisoned her, but it sparked a flame leading to the rebellion, GMS's imprisonment, and the Weavers fleeing

[valid coral]

Even with the cogwork core's eternal song it wouldn't be enough to keep her asleep

[small gate]

they were made specifically made to serve gms

[vestal swan]

Their entire existence was being forced to worship this god that they thought was their mom or smth

[ionic bear]

do you guys think there are any places left that have healthy and living weavers? i personally think that hallownest may have a healthy settlement, since the infection was ended

[heavy gyro]

Why does the presence of hornet make gms awaken faster

[vestal swan]

Plenty could be hiding but I don't think hollownest has any, whoever scouted out hornet would have seen them

[quaint spear]

At the start it was implied it was the core +Architects + Conductors + Vault Keepers that all sang and kept her asleep well. Just that...everyone fell silent when the Haunting started

[small gate]

all the weavers in hallownest sans one left after the infection

[valid coral]

I doubt theres any full weavers anymore

[small gate]

theres probably like a handful

and theyre either old or completely hermit-ed

[ionic bear]

all of the weavers that were infected, they would no longer be infected, does it say they left when they were uninfected?

[valid coral]

I'd assume that first the vaultkeepers fell silent, then conductors, cogwork core remained functional however

[small gate]

oh, right

[teal horizon]

No, I understand they were mad that they were lied to. I just don't think GMS elevating them makes her an awful person. Think of it as the kid in the park being in an abusive family that would lead them to dying in infancy

[ionic bear]

true..

[teal horizon]

The Pale King elevated his kingdom, that's not why we say he's awful*

[sinful nimbus]

Who's we

[silk dirge]

people here dont say pk was awful

[sinful nimbus]

PK wasn't awful GMS was

[heavy gyro]

Theres that weaver in weaver's den

[valid coral]

You're in a very light sleep and then someone outside screams "FIGHT ME"

[teal horizon]

GMS elevated the spiders in her kingdom, I don't see why we should consider her awful for that

[silk dirge]

he was a good king who had to face the trolley problem

[sinful nimbus]

Don't slander the goat

[vestal swan]

I found the record-breaking most insane take of the channel

[sinful nimbus]

GMS's uplifting people to sapience is fine

[silk dirge]

because she did it so they would be slaves to her

[heavy gyro]

Why didnt she just make someone wake her up then

[vestal swan]

"It's okay to kidnap kids as long as you give them a better life"

[silk dirge]

pk did not do that

[valid coral]

Fair point, very few full weavers considering that they're ghost stories In a lot of places

[small gate]

i dunno about the ones that were infected, but its generally understood that all sane weavers left for shit

[teal horizon]

The Pale King did it to become king

[sinful nimbus]

His kingdom was prosperous

[valid coral]

Need the threefold melody I presume

[teal horizon]

Did we have any indication that Pharloom wasn't before the rebellion?

[small gate]

the idea of there being weavers in hallownest would depend on the infected ones not having just perished after the infection got erased

[ionic bear]

wait if pharloom is home to the weavers, then why are there no weavers in pharloom, it says they left for their home....

[eternal cove]

Okay this may be a spicy take
But I'm just assuming they wrote this flavor text before they had any ideas for Silksong and didn't think about it too hard

So I motion to strike the Weaversong flavor text from the record as non-canon

[small gate]

thats not a hot take its just true

[sinful nimbus]

Yes Weavers describe her reign as "web and service eternal" and an "accursed web" with web being the weaver term for exploitative systems

[heavy gyro]

She couldve made lace wake her up before she started rebelling

[teal horizon]

That, or all the Weavers died before they could come back to Pharloom

[teal horizon]

After the rebellion

When they left

[valid coral]

Honestly I don't fucking know why "garama" awakens her.

[quaint spear]

Honestly her elevating the Weavers would be good if she wasn't doing so for them to serve her forever in tyranny

[alpine spruce]

should I still add spoilers on some stuff while talking here?

[vestal swan]

They had hideouts and tech in their old Kingdom it's not unreasonable they would go back to look for something to help

[small gate]

just because the hollow knight weaver lore doesnt match silksong doesnt mean it cant be reasoned out

[valid coral]

And were then captured by GMS assuming the haunting was in full motion by that point

[sinful nimbus]

No duh, its the REASON for the rebellion

[alpine spruce]

I'll take that as no then

[sinful nimbus]

Also it wasn't written after the rebellion it was during it

[small gate]

team cherry likely at least though of the little things they implied in HK while making SS

[vestal swan]

? We don't know the timeline from hollow Knight to silk song

[ionic bear]

but silksong is clearly a whilea fter HK

[vestal swan]

So you think that they had a rebellion locked up their God and left the kingdom then came back and wrote some signs and stories about how much they hated it?

[valid coral]

Note why I said "assuming the haunting was in full force". For all we know those weavers became the ability spires or something

[silk dirge]

the funny thing to me is radiance might have been killed like a few years into citadel of stone

[alpine spruce]

Anyways I came back to the game (after a long 2 month hiatus) and decided to try again and go deeper into the game

And my god, it started with her

[silk dirge]

we dont know

[teal horizon]

Considering GMS could do things to the other descendants of Weavers (eight part, fourth part...), could create the Haunting, Lace, etc... I don't think the "slumbering" thing is complete unconsciousness. She was just trapped and weakened, but conscious and absolutely able to react to Hornet coming to her

[valid coral]

The entirety of HK happens in the span of a weekend and the very next week after finally being freed from her position of sentinel she gets kidnapped by the citadel

[vestal swan]

What is citadel of stone on the timeline? Is that just the first sealing before they gilded everything?

[small gate]

yes

[heavy gyro]

Maybe it's something that gotta do with hornet's wyrm part

[valid coral]

Citadel of stone is generally considered to be the weavers citadel I believe

[vestal swan]

Alr makes sense

[silk dirge]

pious isamor time yeah

[ionic bear]

citadel of stone is weavers citadel, modern citadel is from the conductors and keepers and architects

[valid coral]

The gilding happened sometime after the pilgrim statue was banished to whispering vaults

[alpine spruce]

Like deadass she fights like prequel boss hornet (spear throw and jumps forward, diagonal sky slam, etc)

Making me think that is she related to hornet or something

[teal horizon]

They had a rebellion, locked up their god, then while she was asleep did all they could to prevent her from awakening (Eva, the Snare...) and when they saw it couldn't be done they wrote the signs and stories, told the bugs there to continue singing, then left

[ionic bear]

^

[vestal swan]

While it's technically possible I don't think it happened to that close together, I feel like the citadel was being passed off or was completely handed off before most of the weavers decided to leave

[ionic bear]

^

[sinful nimbus]

Close enough welcome back Kitsune theory

[silk dirge]

weavenests were before rebellion

atla has a model of a bell shrine next to snare setter

[sinful nimbus]

The Citadel weavers didn't leave they died

[vestal swan]

Have you beat the game?

[ionic bear]

some left, some died

[sinful nimbus]

No they died

There is no indication that any of them left

[ionic bear]

every weavenest ever

[sinful nimbus]

Weavenests are pre citadel

[heavy gyro]

How do we know the bells were installed before the citadel was fully built and all

[vestal swan]

And everyone is not talking about leaving

[alpine spruce]

Nah still stuck in act 1

I'm just saying that her combat style is kinda like Hollow Knight boss Hornet

[teal horizon]

Probably, yes (or during). But that doesn't mean everything in them is. Especially Eva. She is absolutely something that takes time, meant to be a more permanent solution than the song

[sinful nimbus]

Cindril left to escape GMS therefore she wasn't asleep

[valid coral]

Didn't the conductor rune harp imply that they handed it off to the them before bolting

[sinful nimbus]

The conductor rune harp says they died

[vestal swan]

You should not be in this channel if you don't want spoilers then

Just a heads up

[silk dirge]

they are a part of the pilgrimage

[alpine spruce]

I can just gaslight myself into not believing they're real

[teal horizon]

She is "asleep" during the game. GMS asleep is still conscious enough to control the whole kingdom through the Haunting

[sinful nimbus]

Last words of the Weavers.

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers...

[sinful nimbus]

Only because the Citadel went silent which the Weavers were not anticipating at the time of their death

As per the rune harp posted above

[teal horizon]

GMS awake is what we see in the "Strung to Serve" ending, controlling directly every single bug

[sinful nimbus]

Strung to Serve is cut content

[silk dirge]

eva says she saw weavers working on snare setter so its all the same time

[valid coral]

Right so some of the weavers did leave themselves behind for the "one of silken strength" to bind them

[teal horizon]

Yep, but it would have happened eventually even with the song, or the Weavers would not have fled

[valid coral]

Despite that it shouldn't immediately be considered noncanon

There's a reason it would be left in the files

[ionic bear]

^^

[sinful nimbus]

Please read the posted rune harp as it reveals they believed the Citadel would continue indefinitely

[silk dirge]

that is not true

[sinful nimbus]

No cut content makes its way into the files all the time

[silk dirge]

multiple enemies are called goombas in the files

[ionic bear]

literally no??

[eternal cove]

I propose that the Lost Sinner's spirit is not attacking Hornet, but is testing her instead
"You want my Rune Rage ability? Prove you're strong enough to wield it"

[silk dirge]

file names are not canon

[alpine spruce]

Also when was Hornet kidnapped tho

Was it after godhome when she faced off HK or something

[silk dirge]

yup

[valid coral]

Who knows

[silk dirge]

its a test in a dream

[valid coral]

Unambiguous time skip

I still think strung to serve is the outcome if GMS claimed hornets power for herself

[silk dirge]

i bug reported first sinner not replenishing your tools despite it being a dream yesterday

[ionic bear]

SK takes place definitely a while after HK

[silk dirge]

if thats somehow not a dream i will be extremely surprised

[teal horizon]

They wanted the bugs to never cease chanting. But the whole point of them fleeing is that they weren't confident that would be enough to fully control Silk. Why would they have fled otherwise?

[teal horizon]

a

[sinful nimbus]

They fled before the Citadel

[ionic bear]

they fled after the citadel

[teal horizon]

What are you saying?

[sinful nimbus]

The exodus was before the Citadel was established that's the only sensical interpretation

[teal horizon]

They fled after the Citadel was established, otherwise they couldn't leave the burden in the Citadel bug's hands