sk-lore

[lean temple]

"Puppet servant of the Citadel, suspended on strings of Silk. An early form of automaton, requiring extensive Silk to maintain its service."

[sterile jacinth]

They might be made to evoke weavers but that still begs the question of why?

[timber pond]

Which is a fancy way of saying "cant stay here" lol

[sterile jacinth]

Were they originally weaver built?

[limpid summit]

Probably not

[silk dirge]

yeah this seems pre silkflies

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder if they were made when weavers were still revered

[timber pond]

COnductors probably made them

[lean temple]

They could've been used to neutralise the silk of tracked down Weavers

[limpid summit]

Maybe the conductors sought to replicate Weavers (the former rulers) early on to try and make powerful guards

[warm ferry]

Interesting. I was also thinking that fist of all the whole events of the fist game was to save Hallownest even though it was not very.. sound anymore. And two, Hornet seemed to want to return after her duties in Pharloom based on her diologue at the sands of time

[limpid summit]

Before resorting to Cogwork automatons

[sterile jacinth]

That’s true but the conductors don’t really have a reason to go after weavers. Especially if they still thought of them as gods

[lean temple]

Yeah good point. Hmm. Ig guards then?

[warm ferry]

Maybe it was after they resisted

[timber pond]

At the start, she might Want to leave and only stays to get rid of her captors. But her opinion changes in act 3

[warm ferry]

Like the guards duty were to capture the weavers that sinned

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe. But their silk stealing abilities throw a little wrench into that. Unless they’re just repurposing their mechanisms for self repair to use against Hornet

[warm ferry]

I never went there during act 3, what does she say?

[timber pond]

Also If you Know the Steel Soul Quest. My personal theroy lies with them as to why hornet wants to leave.

[timber pond]

She says she must stay to fix her mistake nad cannot abandon these bugs bassicaly

[lean temple]

As weapon said they also have spells. Seem to be offensive automatons

[limpid summit]

I would say a bit of both

Maybe they were both early cleaning bots and guards

[warm ferry]

Yeah she seems to want to leave after she finished her duty which is now fixing her mistake

[lean temple]

Again they could've just used silk from Citadel stock

[sterile jacinth]

I forgot about the spells yea. Wow they must be expensive to maintain. I wonder if they notice hornets silk and steal that instead of using their own

[sterile jacinth]

Those are some expensive cleaning bots

[lean temple]

It seems they'll take silk from anywhere they can

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah

[warm ferry]

It’s very implies that they have offensive duties. So what does the citadel wish to attack? I would say the weavers who resisted.

[lean temple]

Again they are very early

Probably before GMS started hunting down the Weavers

[sterile jacinth]

I hadn’t really considered the Weavers who resisted. Though that might just be confined to one weaver who is notably still alive.

[lean temple]

They could've just been early cogwork guards prototypes

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah, I think they’re more like guard prototypes and just happened to use silk before silk flies were discovered

[sterile jacinth]

Not to mention, her silk is literally bound

[lean temple]

The Citadel also has the rune cages

Feels weird to have multiple weapons against the guys who built the place to begin with

[sterile jacinth]

That might have been built after gms started the haunting and bugs continued to do the job they were before just with another force telling them what to do

That’s true it could be that as well

[lean temple]

Weavers are the main users of runes in silksong. Lace is able to break the runes. Makes sense if it all ties back to GMS

[sterile jacinth]

They are sisters. Lace and the weavers

The weavers and weaver kin seem to have been taken to the citadel

[lean temple]

Well we don't really know which are rune cages and which aren't. I don't think glow. I think they have some rune cages for specific cases

And tbh runes could still be both for extra defence and anti Weaver at the same time

[sterile jacinth]

We never really see any in use besides the ones Hornet is in

It was in vain. Their whole plan. That’s why they fled

They knew she wouldn’t sleep forever so they abandoned Pharloom

[muted lantern]

The argument that herrah is an evolved drapemite became more convincing to me after i saw the big drapemite has a sprite with 8 legs

also mites are arachnids

[vestal swan]

Sinner with 2

[muted lantern]

the legs vary from sprite to sprite

same with sinner iirc

theres a death sprite of drapemites with 8 legs, not sure about pharlid, but i've also seen first sinner break out a few more legs too

[sterile jacinth]

Also she wears a dress most of the time so I think that’d conceal a lot of the legs

[muted lantern]

Id have to find a picture but it doesnt look like a smear frame its like a very distinct 8 legs.

its not during an attack, the sprite i saw looked like a death animation

[vestal swan]

Pretty sure they all have 4 except the big one might have 6

!wiki big drapemite

[muted lantern]

does anyone have the image of the giant drapmites corpse? thats the image i saw, perhaps the one i saw was edited?

do you have one for big drapemite?

[vestal swan]

!wiki giant drapemite

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Giant_Drapemite

Hollow Knight Wiki

Giant Drapemite

Giant Drapemites are enemies in Hollow Knight: Silksong.

Health

100/Black-Threaded200

Drops

7-11
Shards dropped with Shard Pendant equipped 9-14

Damage Modifiers

1.25    1.15    1    1    1

Journal kills

6

[vestal swan]

4 and 6

[muted lantern]

so yeah look a lot of those sprites its 8 right or am I crazy?

[sterile jacinth]

I agree

[ionic bear]

genuine theory that horney would absolutely love the taste of chocolate

[muted lantern]

look at the spritesheet above, a lot of them have 8

[sterile jacinth]

-# horney…

[muted lantern]

Its hilarious that the drapemites one sprite we get in hunters journal gives us the innacurate leg count

Knowing she considers lace a kid the whole game I certainly hope not

[rapid scarab]

Question: if GMS created the weavers, and ordered the capture of them, and they can procreate (Herrah and Pale King as proof), then why weren’t there enough to make a functioning species regardless? And if GMS “ascended” the weavers, then are they higher beings? If yes to the second question, they should have won when the citadel came after them.

[muted lantern]

In conversation with Eva hornet says that weavers have an incredibly hard time having children. Saying Its a difficult and painful process

[sterile jacinth]

Procreation is not easy

Plus weavers are prideful beings

[muted lantern]

Presumably pks godhood helped

[sterile jacinth]

Also weavers are NOT higher beings. They were lied to that they were yes but they are not

Their power comes FROM a god but they themselves are not gods

[muted lantern]

Weavers can be higher beings if they smoke enough zaza

[sterile jacinth]

They’re like dnd sorcerers. Very powerful simply due to their nature but their nature comes from a more powerful source

[jovial talon]

Chat

Is there any mention of time measurements in the hollow knight universe ever

Like days weeks months years

[muted lantern]

Do y'all think hornet would recognize the drapemite herrah connection

[jovial talon]

Since there's no sun or daytime to go by I wonder how they measure time

[sterile jacinth]

Lmao no

[jovial talon]

So they just go by vibes I guess

[muted lantern]

Like oops sorry grandma

[sterile jacinth]

Well they likely do we as the players are just not told them. This is really fun for building timelines that no one will argue with

[muted lantern]

Your reanimated corpse had to go

[jovial talon]

I mean weavers are like a more evolved form of the spider enemies, would you call a chimpanzee your grandma?

[muted lantern]

Yeah next question

(kidding)

But the difference being they were instantly evolved not over millions of generations

[jovial talon]

Pharlids are probably like monkeys for weavers

[muted lantern]

So like herrahs mom could have been just a regular pharlid

Or drapemite

[sterile jacinth]

Probably long dead now

[muted lantern]

Also fighting possessed chimpanzees would be fucking terryifying

[jovial talon]

Also I never made the herrah drapemite connection I just assumed herrah was weird because she was designed separately from weavers and they came up with her being one later in hk development originally

[sterile jacinth]

Weavers are much longer living than regular bugs

It’s a theory but a pretty compelling one

[muted lantern]

Its a theory, but the visual similarities are very distinct if you look at the spritesheet above

[jovial talon]

Giant drapemite is a possessed gorilla

[muted lantern]

Especially knowing mites are a type of arachnid

[sterile jacinth]

Being a bug in hk must suck

[muted lantern]

And the sprite have 8 legs

[jovial talon]

No I see it if you compare herrah to both she definitely looks more like a drapemite than a pharlid

[sterile jacinth]

It also gives some possible context to her beast title

[muted lantern]

The worst part is I didnt make the connection before because the hunters journal sprite of giant drapemite has only 6 legs while almost every other in game sprite has 8

[jovial talon]

I also kinda just looked at herrah and thought maybe weavers look like that under the mask or something idk

[sterile jacinth]

We see widow so that’s not true lol

[jovial talon]

I mean

[muted lantern]

If herrah comes from a drapemite she might not have a natural mask, which matches with her dialogue in red memory implying she's not actually wearing the dreamer mask yet and we only see it over her face in a blur because hornet can't remember her true face

[jovial talon]

Maybe herrah could also be wearing some old rags on her head like widow is idk lol

[spark valve]

herrah isn't a drapemite and her body doesn't even look that way anymore

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. Drapemites don’t have natural masks either unlike pharlids

[muted lantern]

The mutations of GMS make the pharlids bodies less bulbous too

[spark valve]

her body is consistent with a normal weaver now silksong redesigned her

[muted lantern]

We barely see her body under the cloak

[timber pond]

The only thing close is "Ages" from mister mushrooms diolouge in both games. So at best, everything is measured in "Ages". So like an Era i guess? Lol

[jovial talon]

That does make me wonder if any of the little animal non-intelligent critters with masks in either game have non-natural masks

[sterile jacinth]

The one under the cloak?

[spark valve]

also hornet can identify pharlids as her ancestors but says nothing abotu drapemites

[muted lantern]

And again, GMS changed their body drastically in both cases

[spark valve]

drapemites also aren't arachnids and all other weavers are consistent

[muted lantern]

They have 8 legs

[jovial talon]

Do you guys think hornet could've binded the dreamers just for funsies if she wanted to

And what would happen if she did

[muted lantern]

Not in the hunters journal sprite but every other sprite

[sinful nimbus]

They are physically protected but if they weren't sure ig

[sterile jacinth]

I think you could fit the body she has in hk in there

[spark valve]

you couldn't

[sinful nimbus]

No she's way larger in HK

[muted lantern]

No she defo got bigger after this

[sinful nimbus]

Her limbs are also in different positions

[jovial talon]

I think her cloak looks way shorter in hk instead

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I agree but there is room for more than the stick bodies the other weavers have

[sinful nimbus]

its both

[muted lantern]

We don't know how she looks underneath, probably quite similar to a typical weaver,

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe. We don’t know. If it is a normal weaver it’s inconsistent with her appearance in hk

[jovial talon]

Maybe she just got fat after some time idk

[timber pond]

I thought this was Th end of her body but its probably the cloak lol

[spark valve]

it's almost like they retroactively changed what species she is

[jovial talon]

I kinda wanna assume the red cloak just faded over time since in the red memory wasn't there also a lot of red around the deepnest section?

[sterile jacinth]

Oh btw mites are arachnids

[sterile jacinth]

She can probably just… change outfits

[jovial talon]

I mean not after sleeping for an indeterminate but very long amount of time

[muted lantern]

This is such a boring way to engage with fiction, they can have both retconned it as well as come up with an explanation after the fact that makes it make sense.
I think the devs deserve some credit in thinking through retcons even if you aren't a fan of them

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah true. She might have gotten a different outfit to fit her role a dreamer

[spark valve]

ok but they didn't come up with an explanation after the fact

[sterile jacinth]

True. Were here to theorize not call the devs stupid :P

[spark valve]

I'm not saying they can't retcon it I'm saying pretending it has to be consistent is pointless

[jovial talon]

I do think hornet's cloak being a more vivid red in ss is just a retcon for it to look nicer because how do you explain that

[sinful nimbus]

Who's we

[timber pond]

They likely do have one, they just wont Tell us unless they want to lol

[sinful nimbus]

Team Cherry are dumb af

[spark valve]

it's not consistent
they changed it

[sterile jacinth]

That’s literally what we’re doing right now. We’re doing the best we can with the information we have and although it may not be true it’s the best theory we have

[sinful nimbus]

Theories have evidence 💔

[muted lantern]

Not one explicitly stated, but that's what speculation is for, I just think it's bland to discard all speculation as they retconned it so let's not think any more about it, it's a thought terminating cliche.

[timber pond]

This is what team cherry like doing so i dont see the point in being up in arms about it lol. aint that deep.

[sinful nimbus]

Well this is an evidence based channel first of all 🤓
second of all that's not what a thought terminating cliche is

[sterile jacinth]

Yea but just calling the devs stupid basically for that doesn’t sit well with me

[jovial talon]

I haven't seen anything that disproves this yet but I personally think what gms' original plan was might be that she was planning to bind all the weavers/offspring from the start after they grew in numbers over a few generations and the reason they rebelled was because they found out somehow

[timber pond]

Like did any of you Watch The original SA developer talks interview? if you did you would know what they value.

[sterile jacinth]

I think you’re right

[spark valve]

weavers can't normally reproduce so that wouldn't really make any sense as a plan

[jovial talon]

They can make mixed offspring

[sterile jacinth]

I mean about the elevating other types of bugs

[sterile jacinth]

They’re all women

[spark valve]

it's well established that gms wanted actual children

[muted lantern]

A thought-terminating cliché (also known as a semantic stop-sign, a thought-stopper, bumper sticker logic, or cliché thinking) is a form of loaded language—often passing as folk wisdom—intended to end an argument and patch up cognitive dissonance with a cliché rather than a point.[1][2] Some such clichés are not inherently terminating, and only become so when used to intentionally dismiss, dissent, or justify fallacies.[3]

[spark valve]

the weavers betrayed her for their freedom

[spark valve]

not the wikipedia copy paste

[sinful nimbus]

😭

[spark valve]

and yeah that's not an accurate description of what I've said but you won't find what I said verbatim on wikipedia

[sterile jacinth]

Defining a word can be very important in a debate to get everyone on the same page

[jovial talon]

Also like the whole haunting thing what was that even for

[sterile jacinth]

Gms trying to regain control and wake up

[jovial talon]

Was gms just pissy that all her kids left and took it out on the general population

[spark valve]

yes

[jovial talon]

Radiance all over again kinda

[spark valve]

[jovial talon]

How dare you not know who I am now I will brainwash you into a mindless zombie

[sterile jacinth]

Her own pain and sadness seeped throughout the rest of the land

[sterile jacinth]

Less that I think. That’s rads thing. Gms wants motherhood

[gentle aspen]

Not exactly

Rad kinda requires people to remember her to exist in a sense

[jovial talon]

Just in the sense that she got upset over something and decided to brainwash the entire population for it

[gentle aspen]

she took it way too far but it is more reasonable than what GMS did

[sterile jacinth]

Rad lashed out in anger. Gms more in sadness

[sinful nimbus]

That's not really what she's doing but she is in many ways a ripoff of Radiance yes

[timber pond]

https://youtu.be/FYSwaR0gi_k Im suprissed nobody has seen this. As Literally every sign of silk song Is consistent with their philosophy and thought Process they discuss here. Its a Good watch.

[sinful nimbus]

Its mostly a deliberate attempt at control rather than just blind rage/sadness

[sterile jacinth]

That is an hour long </3

[sinful nimbus]

I ain't watching 1 hour of bad writers yapping sorry 💔 💔 💔

I'd find more value in a George R.R Martin interview

[spark valve]

gms is basically groal with even less characterization

[timber pond]

Yeah i know, but im saying is that its relatively underground and no one knows about it

[sterile jacinth]

Might give it a watch sometime but it is pretty long

[timber pond]

They literally explain they have a thoughline for Both Hollow Knight and silksong.

[sterile jacinth]

I can tell there’s a lot of thought put into it

[timber pond]

and everything else they will ever make

[jovial talon]

Justifiably(?) mad that something is going wrong but taking out that anger on bystanders instead

[sterile jacinth]

It’s annoying that people dismiss details as like “oh lazy incompetent devs”

[muted lantern]

Yeah but us discord users know more than the devs ever knew about their own story clearly

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[timber pond]

💀 😂

[spark valve]

the only explanation for etv

[jovial talon]

Us discord users can't watch long term content

[timber pond]

King and Queen Cope over here back at it again

[sinful nimbus]

Its either HK was good and forgot details later or it was always mid they just presented it poorly

[sterile jacinth]

In a way. They’re both beings who were hurt and took their hurt out on others but I think that’s bout where their similarities end

[jovial talon]

Both are required for act 3

[sterile jacinth]

Story and lore wise

[jovial talon]

Both are old

[sterile jacinth]

Gms craves motherhood but instead of letting her children grow or be their own independent beings she controls them and tries her hardest to keep them to her liking. There is a love for her children but a deeply flawed one, a conditional one

Their betrayal hurt her and her sadness is infecting the lands below her

[jovial talon]

I wonder if gms just one day materialized in pharloom and started existing there just like that or if she's really really really ancient and just decided that that's where her daughters are gonna live

[sterile jacinth]

She’s not native to Pharloom

[spark valve]

she showed up one day

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah lol that’s why I’m in the lore channel. I like theorizing with little bits and pieces of story

[muted lantern]

First she made children that were free to do as they want, and they betrayed her, next she made a child who would always be reliant on her for silk, but they grew into their own person and wasn't what she wanted anymore, then she made a child that would always be physically reliant on her silk, and could never outgrow her. And even then she couldn't keep her on her side, because she tried tightening her control instead of being a better mother

[spark valve]

she didn't make children who were free to do what they want

weavers weren't free

[timber pond]

41:50-42:40 "The Most important aspect of the game is that people are talking about it, that's why most character's have a name And just enough Diolouge"

For hollow Knight

[jovial talon]

I wonder if all of the silk in the world is called that because it was invented by grand mother silk or if bugs discovered silk, called it that then started calling the goddess who creates it grand mother silk after what she makes

[sterile jacinth]

Exactly. Gms (like everything else in this game) is a tragic and deeply flawed character

[muted lantern]

Comparatively to the two silk children

[gentle aspen]

Star I’ll mute you if you keep posting the shitpost theory

[sinful nimbus]

mb 💔

[sterile jacinth]

Chicken before the egg situation. I don’t think it matters but I do thing gms the being came first

[sinful nimbus]

Base game Hollow Knight was very unified in its themes of impermanence and change

[jovial talon]

I know it doesn't matter I'm just wondering

[sinful nimbus]

How

[jovial talon]

Naming the material she invented after her own name is so funny though

She's literally John silk the ceo of silk

[spark valve]

it's not her name it's a description of what she is, the mother silk, the source of silk

[gentle aspen]

I mean, there are elements on the periodic table

[sinful nimbus]

The Snail Shaman explains where the void in void spells comes from its not from the shamans

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Shade Soul

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

@starpengu used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Shade Soul

[gentle aspen]

yeah they sent the same thing

[sinful nimbus]

He even goes so far as to state void spells are "unique and expressive"

[jovial talon]

Wouldn't she be called grand mother of silk or something then

[gentle aspen]

Welp I can’t eead

I should go to bed

[spark valve]

hollow knight fan

[jovial talon]

I thought she was grand mother because she's really into having kids

[sterile jacinth]

She is a mother. She is grand. She is the source of silk

[jovial talon]

And silk because of silk

[timber pond]

THis was my First suspicion that Hollow Knights History has Been Overwritten in universe. Like real history, things are inconsistent with whats presented. My Second suspicion was when Lemm says the Stone tablets were replaced with spiders silk.

[sinful nimbus]

Because they are

[sterile jacinth]

I think one of the fundamental aspects of her character is that she is a mother and craves motherhood

[gentle aspen]

because the methodology is different

It’s not the same essence fusing as the rest of them

[sinful nimbus]

He says void spells are unique in both dialogues 🥴

[spark valve]

'if shamans aren't void why do they say the one spell that comes from void and not a shaman is different" lmao

[jovial talon]

Unless the child is phantom that one just gets neglect

[gentle aspen]

huh?

[spark valve]

hollow knight fans can't read

[gentle aspen]

you get the concept of fusing your essence, which is void, from a shaman, yes

[jovial talon]

I think shamans just tamper with void

[sterile jacinth]

Phantom didn’t meet her expectations is my guess. Or they tried to rebel a little and gms said nope I know what happened last time

[sinful nimbus]

^

The shaman lets us fuse our own void into their spell

[timber pond]

im saying History can be Inaccurate. and This applies to Hollow Knight as well. Or at least Hollow Knights World uses "lost history" as an aspect of lore

[foggy fractal]

hey i'm a hollow knight fan and I can read trust

[sinful nimbus]

The void doesn't come from the shamans it had nothing to do with them

[spark valve]

that means you have elevated into being a hater

[gentle aspen]

As I already said, because the methodology is different

[sinful nimbus]

...because you get it differently

[jovial talon]

We don't ever see phantom without the mask on right? Maybe gms hates her for being too ugly

[foggy fractal]

what if someone is neither hater or fan
could they read ?

[sterile jacinth]

Don’t generalize. It’s rude

[spark valve]

every other word

[gentle aspen]

you get it from an explicitly not shaman source and its different enough for him to note

[muted lantern]

The humble spray of black particles that we absorb from the shamans body:

[foggy fractal]

ah I see

[sterile jacinth]

I think like lace phantom feels a deep self hatred and I think they’re hiding their face out of shame

[sinful nimbus]

Which is a retcon yes

In the context of HK snail shamans explicitly had nothing to do with the void

[spark valve]

in the context of silksong they still aren't made of the stuff lol

[sinful nimbus]

You can say whatever you want on if this is good writing or not but it was changed

[gentle aspen]

I mean it could just be family differences
and regardless in Silksong they just have a healthy interest in the stuff

[jovial talon]

Saw people earlier point out that phantoms gender/pronouns are unspecified but when literally every other child gms ever made is a woman I think its fair to assume

[timber pond]

To be fair. We only ahve a sample size of 1 guy😭 .

[sinful nimbus]

Which is explicitly explained

[gentle aspen]

you can keep repeating this all you want it doesn’t change the fact you’re ignoring ingame dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

"Its black" good one

[spark valve]

lace calls her 'sister' in a needolin memory the gender isn't unspecified

[gentle aspen]

we’re told they’re not void we’re explained how the shaman stuff works

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I won’t dog on you for using she her. They them is the only pronouns we hear for phantom so that’s what I use but idc if you use something different

[spark valve]

but yes the game also makes a point of indicating all gms's children are daughters

[gentle aspen]

okay but the example you’re giving is not a retcon or a change

[jovial talon]

Poop village got retconned before ever existing

[sinful nimbus]

But you didn't have an adequate example

Also "Hollow Knight was always poorly written" is uhhmmm a stance to take for sure

[jovial talon]

I know its not a retcon if it never existed but still

[sterile jacinth]

I won’t stop you from using she her I’m just using the pronouns that are in the game

[gentle aspen]

there are changes that we know of hive being changed from deepnest to kingdom’s edge
lobster lancer to god tamer

[sinful nimbus]

Phantom isn't non-binary only 12th architect and moss druid are

[gentle aspen]

She/her’s also in there based on the exhaust organ needolin dialogue

[sterile jacinth]

Oh is it?

[jovial talon]

We were getting a lobster lancer??

[gentle aspen]

hornet tends to not gender in the journal

[spark valve]

god tamer

[lapis creek]

you forgot second sentinel you bigot

[gentle aspen]

that was the original idea for god tamer

[jovial talon]

What we got is so much more boring damn

[gentle aspen]

and then they didn’t put that in silksong

[timber pond]

Thats not what he means. hes aruging that "History bEing Lost" is a part of the theme and that the world Intentionally has interinal Inconsistences which i can get behind as pretty cool, because real life history is like that as well when it comes to certain subjects. I dont think snail Shamans are "directly" Void through.

[gentle aspen]

because they hate me specifically

[sinful nimbus]

Yea because getting a void spell from them doesn't prove they have a connection to the void it proves TK has a connection to the void

[spark valve]

tc was always cutting the cool shit the signs were there

[lapis creek]

what the fuck

[gentle aspen]

damn that lobster got fucked up

[sterile jacinth]

Snail shamans are also historically kinda shifty and a little untrustworthy

[lapis creek]

no i dont like that

[gentle aspen]

I never noticed it had shit stabbed in it

[silk dirge]

what the fuck kinda jockey is this

[gentle aspen]

Chicken

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't

[jovial talon]

Can't believe we didn't get lobster lancer

[spark valve]

perhaps tc were always hacks 😔

[silk dirge]

baby hornet and beastling jockey sweeps

[sinful nimbus]

"The process to get void spells involves a shaman" and "Shamans are related to the void" are different statements

The void comes from the knight

[spark valve]

lie

[sinful nimbus]

No he doesn't

[timber pond]

Ithink they wanted sea creatures to Either BE OLD or Rare.

[foggy fractal]

lobster

[spark valve]

that text doesn't say that

[jovial talon]

Do you guys think they'd call a lobster a bug in the hollow knight universe? Technically spiders aren't insects and who knows what a wyrm is but they still call hornet a bug

[silk dirge]

khann is a crab

[sterile jacinth]

Even if that is true it’s important to keep in mind that shamans are kinda shifty. They tend to trick or withhold information a lot. I would not put lying past them

[silk dirge]

or some sort of crustacean

[spark valve]

bug is generously applied

[sinful nimbus]

Every TC game is like a 4/10 at best and then they make one 7/10 and we're suddenly constantly glazing them and we're all hyped for their next game????

[jovial talon]

I mean I did think all the guys there are very shrimpy but they're not stated to actually be crustaceans and it could be Ike the situation of craws just being bird-like bugs

[silk dirge]

i mean crustaceans are very close to bugs

[gentle aspen]

cmon

[sinful nimbus]

Because you use his relative to get the void version

[silk dirge]

where a bird is not

[heavy gyro]

They dont ever call spiders bugs iirc

[silk dirge]

like i can definitely imagine an actual crab in a bug kingdom

[jovial talon]

They are that's why I asked the original question of would they call a lobster a bug in hk universe

[silk dirge]

i could not do the same for a bird

[spark valve]

gee I wonder why the magic man comments on detecting some trace of his magic aunt who you guzzle as fuel

[spark valve]

craws:

[sinful nimbus]

Because her aunt is used to get the void spell

[lapis creek]

i initially thought the "crust" in "crust king khann" referred to crustaceans but that's not true at all unfortunately

[sinful nimbus]

Its not deep

[silk dirge]

i mean yeah but they are bugified forms of birds

[gentle aspen]

she’s the powerful source we use to transform our spell into a void variant

[silk dirge]

i could imagine a crab without the need to "bugify" it like with craws

[lapis creek]

she has left an impression on the knight so the snail shaman notes this

[spark valve]

oh my god go read and compare it to the ddark one because that's exactly what the ddark one is

no

[sinful nimbus]

"Why does he recognize that a hotdog is cooked with fire if wieners don't have any connection to fire"

[spark valve]

not at all he doesn't say anything about techniques lmao

[sinful nimbus]

You go tell me idk

[gentle aspen]

hehe
you said wiener

[spark valve]

the literacy crisis deepens

[sinful nimbus]

Real kneeslapper right there

[gentle aspen]

knock it off tammo

[jovial talon]

Also I know its probably supposed to be like a bird-like bug just like the craws but when I saw the big thing from mount fey I just thought calling that a bug was pushing it that things just a bird

[sterile jacinth]

We back to calling people we don’t agree with stupid yippee

[lapis creek]

idk im seeing some improvements

[spark valve]

My friend. My friend. There's another quality about you yet. You didn't perchance visit my fourth aunt?

She makes her home beside that Crystal Mount. Leaves quite an impression on those that seek her out. Were I not bound here, I'd love to visit myself.
this is not about a technique this is a vague sense

[silk dirge]

nah fayforn is a bug

[foggy fractal]

like the dog ?

[gentle aspen]

I should go to bed

[sinful nimbus]

That joker guy that I hate

[gentle aspen]

yeah

[spark valve]

this is about sensing the essence of the aunt not a technique

[foggy fractal]

gn joker

[silk dirge]

she has a scaly body or whatever its called

[sinful nimbus]

yes please go to bed I want to post shell theory in piece 🙏

[spark valve]

one of these is about a technique
one isn't
you can't actually not be able to tell the difference

[gentle aspen]

I’ll just ping powdered and he’ll mute half of you and crank slowmode up by five

[lapis creek]

but you'll be asleep

[spark valve]

no they aren't

[sinful nimbus]

you can't ping powdered while you're asleep

[jovial talon]

Poor guy doesn't know we ate his relatives

[foggy fractal]

5 what ? minutes ? or like x 5 what we have rn so like 25 seconds

[limpid summit]

Ping him I wanna talk about WL

[silk dirge]

gms spun children from silk while asleep whats your excuse for not working while sleeping

[gentle aspen]

uh
I’m not a woman?

[jovial talon]

I never knew the snail shaman had extra dialogue if you came back to him in hk

[sinful nimbus]

lame

[lapis creek]

if i were a lore mod i would make myself invisible so people would think im asleep, then strike when they least expect it

[spark valve]

no but they aren't all variations of that

the ddark one specifically isn't if you just could read it

[lapis creek]

it depends on what you mean by 'variation'

[spark valve]

there is no mention of any spell or technique

[sinful nimbus]

Lowk if you're a man you shouldn't be in this channel discussing the game about motherhood

Smh

[silk dirge]

REAL

[lapis creek]

it's quite a variation, to the point where it has lost a key characteristic

[jovial talon]

Sorry

[gentle aspen]

Alright I’ll leave then

[silk dirge]

im dropping whiteward estrogen package in this channel

[spark valve]

this is the definition of begging the question

[silk dirge]

i have my hrt appointment tomorrow should i ask if my estrogen might be laced with magic silk

[sterile jacinth]

Calling other people illiterate does not help your case

[lapis creek]

the 3 guys in a cluttered office making a game about motherhood:

[sinful nimbus]

not suspicious at all there's a known mechanism for using shamans to get void spells

[sterile jacinth]

You should totally get it laced with silk you’ll live longer with no consequences:)

[jovial talon]

I wonder if the crystal peaks snail shaman couldve been saved somehow if extracted carefully if the knight didn't break it in pieces shattering the crystal

[jovial talon]

Like cartoon logic of surviving being frozen solid and melted out of it

[silk dirge]

you get to become true self BUT you will become possesed by a silk goddess

make your choice

[sinful nimbus]

Gameplay doesnt mean much?

[foggy fractal]

dw makoto koji was there trust

[sterile jacinth]

Important to keep in mind that snail shamans have historically been very untrustworthy by either withholding information or just tricking the payer

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't suggest that at all

[lapis creek]

i mean the only thing that really has to be explained is why there are shrinky particles around the crystallized mound shaman

[sinful nimbus]

The magic wizards being used to upgrade your spells isn't weird

[sterile jacinth]

Ah rats 😔

[lapis creek]

not the shade soul shaman he doesnt have that

[sinful nimbus]

Even in gameplay its not weird its certainly not weird in story because there's a lore explanation for it

[jovial talon]

Can you imagine if the god of plastic became upset that it was betrayed by its plastlings and started brainwashing and mind controlling every living being with microplastics in their body that's basically the lore of silksong

[silk dirge]

whats the lore explanation for shade soul shamans nice hat

[sinful nimbus]

That maybe would've been better for Silksong's case frankly

[foggy fractal]

made by hat maker

[lapis creek]

nah

[silk dirge]

mask and hat maker collab

[spark valve]

well an idea that used to exist was they modified their hats to match their mounds which typically were found in places with abundant soul but ss makes that probably not the case as one of the ss shamans has the overgrown mound swirls or something

[sinful nimbus]

Didn't Yiik release a youtube video explaining the lore or something

Why didn't they do that so I didn't have to sit through a 6 minute unskippable cutscene full of fanservice

[silk dirge]

we should bribe a playtester to break nda so we can see the lore bible

[sinful nimbus]

What gameplay tells us is that shamans can be used to get void spells which is true in lore too

Nothing more nothing less idk why you're overcomplicating it so much

[lapis creek]

i dont really see how the discussion of gameplay's importance is relevant to this conversation

[spark valve]

it's not it's just yapping to try to obfuscate shit

[sinful nimbus]

Can we move onto red memory now

[foggy fractal]

no let's do green memory

[sinful nimbus]

true...

[lapis creek]

i wouldnt really go this far

[silk dirge]

lets do trans flag colored memory

[spark valve]

lost verdania is pretty neat

[silk dirge]

i agree

[lapis creek]

i like lost verdania

would have preferred real verdania but hey its fine

[silk dirge]

my one issue with lost verdania is ITS RIGHT THERE WDYM ITS LOST

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe if you package the thoughts about the old hearts up nice and neat and push it to the back of your head

[lapis creek]

they wrote the lore after making a lot of the game

[sinful nimbus]

Base game HK didn't have many meaningful internal contradictions afaik

[spark valve]

I mean I think it would've been good to have one of lost verdania or the current sands of karak setup

[jovial talon]

My personal interpretation is that the snails just come from a lineage that tampers with the void and probably has some of it within them, but in the same sense as both the people of pharloom having traces of silk within them and the sense of there being fully organic bugs that adapted to utilize void just like that big enemy from ss abyss

[sterile jacinth]

The lore writing and game making probably went hand in hand with creative decisions made along the way

[lapis creek]

but if they can write a game to fit lore they can write lore to fit a game i dont really think the order of events implies tha tthere will be holes

[sinful nimbus]

The really bad stuff came during and after Grimm Troupe

No that's absurd and not relevant to the conversation

[silk dirge]

whats wrong with grimm troupe

nothing in it seems super egregious

[spark valve]

grimm troupe has some weird framing but otherwise is pretty alright

[sinful nimbus]

Brumm yaps about the troupe being slaves to the nightmare heart or something but its revealed that the troupe and the nightmare heart are literally the same entity???

[sterile jacinth]

Back with some bullshit “game bad” opinions again

[limpid summit]

Dude stop saying this

[sinful nimbus]

OK and that can be criticized

[limpid summit]

The 2 things in lifeblood were PEAK

[lapis creek]

i would prefer secret third option

[timber pond]

Team cherry says otherwise in that interview i posted 😂

[silk dirge]

girl what those dudes in the bg of the normal grimm fight are not the nmh

[spark valve]

wdym just have both be in the world

[jovial talon]

I don't get if the grimm troupe is like just some guys who formed a group and have the tradition of going to dying kingdoms while grimm has weird ass dreams or if they're actually like, supernatural and summoned by dying kingdoms

[spark valve]

I think best timeline is keep lost verdania lost but leave coral gorge in

[limpid summit]

They aren’t summoned by dying kingdoms

Well not technically

[sinful nimbus]

Why not just Pristine Bilewater

[limpid summit]

They send dudes out to light lanterns at dying kingdoms that summon them

The lanterns are connected to the nightmare realm

[silk dirge]

i feel like an "in decline" coral gorge would work well, like blasted steps was taken from them but karak is still thriving somewhat

[jovial talon]

Well presumably they only show up in dying kingdoms

[limpid summit]

Yeah that’s true

[sinful nimbus]

Because it does?

[spark valve]

ok so there's this god called the nightmare's heart, and it's stuck in a part of the dream world with its own kind of essence. It lives in grimm's dream (with grimm being its creation), but grimm won't live forever, so it goes from dead kingdom to dead kingdom getting nightmare essence to feed the new grimm with, before hopping from the old one to the new one

[sinful nimbus]

There is nothing weird about the magic wizards doing magic wizard things to upgrade the magic wizard spells which is true in both gameplay and lore

That's intuitive

[lapis creek]

yeah i think we agree that team cherry can screw up in general but the difference is whether they screwed up in this particular instance

[sinful nimbus]

There is no trivial mistake

I'm all for flaming the Hollow Knight franchise but this is a bad argument

[elder rune]

What do you believe the lands that were once Hallownest look like during the time of Silksong?

[timber pond]

Feels like they are aborbed into it Thorugh a process we are not shown.

[silk dirge]

i mean yeah no one cant screw up no one is infallible

[limpid summit]

God star the complainer what are you complaining about now

[sterile jacinth]

Honestly that’s her opinion and she’ll vehemently defend it. It’s ok to like the games

[lapis creek]

mantis empire

[spark valve]

probably mostly the same but with no infection

[jovial talon]

Does that make anything else happen to the dying kingdom tho or do they just go there because they like collecting fire so that grimm can reproduce asexually

[silk dirge]

verdania but with mantises

[sinful nimbus]

If you're going to just complain about my conduct take it to modmail lest I ping the mods...

[lapis creek]

blue lake has fully drained and it is no longer raining in city of tears

[limpid summit]

Deepnest vs Mantises with Moths and Bees cowering in the corner

[limpid summit]

Been there. Done that.

[silk dirge]

conduct? as in conductor? no not that conductor i mean the electricity one...

[spark valve]

they're scavengers and they don't show up to dying ones, they show up to dead ones. They aren't really causing harm and the kingdom doesn't seem to really be affected

[random aspen]

whys bro talking like that

[limpid summit]

GT are like vultures do you consider vultures evil

[sinful nimbus]

You were talking about me behind my back? Not cool...

[limpid summit]

What contradiction

I’m interested

[silk dirge]

yes bro

[spark valve]

the comparison is apt, they're not actually causing harm but it's still not like a pleasant thing to watch a corpse get devoured

[sterile jacinth]

She’s honestly not worth the hassle. Just ignore her. She thinks the game is bad and won’t hear any opinion to the contrary

[limpid summit]

Look up Egyptian cultures they’re so cool

[silk dirge]

once i was taking my dog for a walk to a park and there were vultures fucking eating a dead vulture

[lapis creek]

star did you know that this is what you think

[silk dirge]

it was crazy

[limpid summit]

Switched up on they day one

[lapis creek]

i bet you didn't know, because you're stupid

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[spark valve]

[elder rune]

Aren’t the bees canonically extinct based on what Hornet tells Plinney? (“That tribe has now long passed, and with them the secrets to their craft.”)

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing makes my blood boil more than contrary opinions ESPECIALLY about Silksong's quality

[silk dirge]

i mean yeah they are infected so theyre cooked

[lapis creek]

what the fuck is this

[sinful nimbus]

You don't know ???

[lapis creek]

no

[jovial talon]

Does he know about hallownest though

[sinful nimbus]

Classic emoji

[silk dirge]

that does not look like zote

[spark valve]

even if they survive innfection vespa is gone so their prospects are grim

[elder rune]

The sapient Moths & Deepnest are gone unfortunately.

[silk dirge]

this is the thing im curious about skarr

[limpid summit]

Wdym by this

[silk dirge]

who tf are they picking for the new queen

[sinful nimbus]

But he does...

[random aspen]

i think vespa dying kinda kills the entire hive instantly pretty much (not to mention its mega infected)

[sterile jacinth]

They too will die alongside their queen

[jovial talon]

I mean realistically it should be pretty hard for information about hallownest to leave hallownest

[foggy fractal]

propsects are grimm :D

[silk dirge]

from my knowledge the only skarr alive would be the boomerang mottled skarr

[sinful nimbus]

He has insight about the processes involving the snails thats about it

[elder rune]

So yeah, it’s the Mantises, the folks of Dirtmouth, Colosseum of the Fools, and Flukes existing as the major sapient peoples of what was once Hallownest.

[limpid summit]

He says your essence has melded with the spell for Shade Soul
And he implies the same thing about DDark by saying “quality” he just doesn’t need to repeat himself

[spark valve]

grimm troupe showing back up in hallownest 30 seconds later because the hive finally falls

[limpid summit]

Idk about the former two

[lapis creek]

i think the flukes are also probably dead

[sterile jacinth]

Some might survive the haunting but the tribe will probably die out

[sterile jacinth]

Thank god

[lapis creek]

not because of infection, but they smell bad and hornet had nothing better to do...

[limpid summit]

Gurr is becoming the new Skarr king BELIEVE

[sinful nimbus]

Steel Soul Jinn packing up shop to move 1 mile towards the hive

[silk dirge]

wtf is up with fluke hermit

[elder rune]

Up to interpretation, considering there are two versions of Godmaster’s ending.

[spark valve]

gurr is dead mate

[sterile jacinth]

For like 3 Skarr </3

[spark valve]

fluke hermit probably replaces flukemarm eventually

[elder rune]

I personally like the Flukes actually, so I’m hoping they’re okay despite how gross they are.

[limpid summit]

Well the vessel room is what distorted the spell that’s what he’s talking about

The vessel room replaced the snail bodies as a catalyst

[jovial talon]

If we're going with basing it on how the real animal works I thought worker bees could just make a new queen if their queen was gone

[foggy fractal]

now that the knight is modded into silksong we need a series of grimm child only kills for silksong bosses

[sinful nimbus]

He says all void spells are weird though

[limpid summit]

They’ve never looked into those power sources before

[sterile jacinth]

Curious as to what your reasoning is because they made royal waterways hell for me

[limpid summit]

No he’s not

[silk dirge]

gilly becomes new ant queen confirmed

[limpid summit]

Mechanically abyss shriek is the same

[silk dirge]

according to star i should trust "el chiefo"

[limpid summit]

The void is just representative of the void in the room

[sinful nimbus]

OK?

[limpid summit]

I think they were all written with the same base idea

[sinful nimbus]

"They didn't write everything all at once" is that the observation you want to posit

[elder rune]

Idk, I guess it’s ‘cus I’m starting to see the appeal in creatures considered gross. As well as this, the Flukes are definitely sapient given the Fluke Hermit’s existence.

[lapis creek]

two things in the game can be different i am with you so far

[timber pond]

I think Perhaps This indicates that Soul and Void Might have some kind of Compatability and Share an origin Mythos in all Honesty. I dont think its black and white as in "they KNOW about this" Perhaps it is a study, Snail Shamans are bassicaly Pagan worshipers who do Spellsfor FUCKIN everything after all

LIke The Father Of the Flame cult for example

[sterile jacinth]

Interesting. I don’t like them at all lol

[sinful nimbus]

EL CHIEFO RAAAAAGH 🗣️

[elder rune]

But yeah, the lands that were once Hallownest are probably made up of several different nations, those being the Republic of Dirtmouth, the Mantis Tribe, the Fluke Siblinghood, and the Colosseum of Fools. Also, those are just my headcanons on all the new nations.

[sinful nimbus]

Two different things happening is not a contradiction

[silk dirge]

elderbug is probably dead by the time silksong happens

[sterile jacinth]

Hallownest is a corpse basically. I don’t know if it’s recovering

[silk dirge]

bro got the 1 week lifespan

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing is contradicted its just that you could achieve the same result via two processes

[jovial talon]

Do we know if the colosseum was a thing before the start of the fall of hallownest

[foggy fractal]

got too old 😭

[spark valve]

(it's not even the same result the abyss shriek spell looks super distinctive relative to the others)

[limpid summit]

Snail Shaman talks about a powerful source when it comes to Shade Soul, in the other two Void spells the same phenomena is implied

[eternal gazelle]

why is this conversation still happening

[timber pond]

AS WRITTEN it is a contradiction. But actual events might be diffrent. Its like How the Romans only Took The Convinet parts of christianity and said "this is orthodox" while everything else wa s"heretical"

[eternal gazelle]

nobody actually gives a fuck that silksong has retcons

[elder rune]

I didn’t say Hallownest would recover, but I do have hope in there existing new peoples & nations within the lands that were once Hallownest.

[silk dirge]

why didnt elderbug inject silk into himself to live longer is he stupid or something

[limpid summit]

Not the discussion Grover

[eternal gazelle]

this is just what happens with ongoing series

[random aspen]

i dont really count flukes as a civilization or anything i feel its more of a parasite just latching onto hallownest

[foggy fractal]

yes he is stupid

[limpid summit]

I’m all for calling out legitimate grievances like the Slabflies but this seems fairly cohesive?

[eternal gazelle]

talk about tools

[sinful nimbus]

Its not even about the retcons but okay

[sterile jacinth]

That’s the hope. Due to the nature of hallownest I don’t believe it though

[timber pond]

Apparently Some people Do. lol

[silk dirge]

truth voltvessel

[sinful nimbus]

mfs just complaining about anything in this channel nowdays

[spark valve]

it's not even about retcons it's just somebody asserting that hk itself is inconsistent with snails

[elder rune]

Are they really parasites? I mean, all they’re really doing is living within the Royal Waterways and doing their own thing.

[silk dirge]

ok can we discuss the lore of voltvessels how the fuck does hornet induce an electric charge like that

[eternal gazelle]

I thought that started with trying to prove that snail shaman behavior in silksong isn't a retcon

[silk dirge]

last time i checked silk was not able to induce an electric charge

[timber pond]

Gee i wonder why 🤔

[sterile jacinth]

We haven’t seen city of tears it it’s prime. They might have been for sure

[lapis creek]

it's become something different now i suppose

[spark valve]

well from wingmoulds we see that soul can do electricity

[sinful nimbus]

team cherry were* not team cherry are

[silk dirge]

oh yeah true im silly

[silk dirge]

maybe david kazi carried lore

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[spark valve]

and volt twisters using sanctum skills to conjure electricity

[lapis creek]

idk if this is even a necessary belief to take the positions star has taken

[foggy fractal]

maybe christopher larkin carried the lore

[sterile jacinth]

It’s ok to dislike the lore. I personally love it. Attacking someone for liking it while you dislike it is just rude :P

[sinful nimbus]

I mean I don't think everything in HK or SS's lore was bad yes

[elder rune]

Personally, I HC the Flukes were a group as oppressed as the Maggots were, just that they were ostracized and forced to live within the Royal Waterways as a living garbage disposal group instead of slave labor that is mistreated by rich bugs.

[sinful nimbus]

I wasn't even saying anything about the quality for the majority of that conversation I was just saying that there wasn't any contradiction in HK snail lore

[silk dirge]

volt twisters when i twist their v = i x r and now their voltage is 0

[limpid summit]

But this isn’t a peculiar thing really it’s just TC not wanting to have Snail Shaman repeat the same thing over and over if you come to him with multiple spells

The same thing happens there is no contradiction

[lapis creek]

we like to take the interpretation that makes the text make sense, where there is one

[sterile jacinth]

I can see that happening. For the most part they are more animalistic though

[sinful nimbus]

All stories aren't fleshed out all at once there's nothing unique about the way TC wrote HK

[timber pond]

Yeah Its written Like the Fucking Gnostic texts are written(Cool idea and good), Because halfe of the Papyrus Was Destroyed 😢

[sinful nimbus]

And I don't think the lore "as a whole" is unsatisfactory there are things in both games I do like

[limpid summit]

Just more in the first one

[lapis creek]

how do you know that they didnt take the time to make hollow knight fully internally consistent

[sinful nimbus]

Hollow Knight was a mostly internally consistent text when it released so like ????

This is just vacuous

[spark valve]

the bretta antennae in question:

[lapis creek]

it's doable even if the story was written for the game rather than the other way around

[limpid summit]

Hollow Knight is pretty much fully internally consistent until you get to DLC lol

[sinful nimbus]

That's hidden dreams genius

[limpid summit]

THK cutscene invalidating every major theme

[sinful nimbus]

We all know TC hasn't done anything good since the base game

[foggy fractal]

erm... really ??? right in front of my bugpipers ???

[spark valve]

wd is cool

[sinful nimbus]

what 💔

[lapis creek]

gpz is also cool

[sinful nimbus]

You could compile a one true lore for HK you can do that in SS too unless you get really into the nitty gritty of the retcons

[timber pond]

We? The Star Council in your head? And Tammo? 😂

[silk dirge]

we the people of sk-lore

[sinful nimbus]

Yes Tammo is my sycophant

[silk dirge]

(i do not count myself as part of the people of this channel)

[sterile jacinth]

I like the lore :P

[spark valve]

the word 'we' suggests otherwise

[eternal gazelle]

has it not been stated that you shouldn't engage star in good faith

it's one of the rules of this channel

[sterile jacinth]

That’s why I’m here :P

[sinful nimbus]

Uhh what 🥴

[timber pond]

If you guys are the people I am the Ancient fucking Babylonian and i disagree

[elder rune]

BTW: The statement of how bugs with minds don’t exist beyond Hallownest is objectively wrong even in the original game pre-DLC, considering that Cloth & Tiso exist and that there exist other groups of people who needn’t the Pale King’s guidance to be smart (Weavers, Mosskin, and the Mantises being the most notable).

[lapis creek]

women arent allowed to make jokes anymore

[sinful nimbus]

SO TRUE

[spark valve]

it's not really wrong it's just being taken out of context to frame it that way

[sinful nimbus]

Well yes I believe what I believe is true

[limpid summit]

Watching Star become channel heel for saying things I agree with 💔

[sinful nimbus]

Congrats on the observation ig

[elder rune]

Also, Starpengu is very obviously baiting and you’re all happily gobbling it up like catfish.

[sterile jacinth]

Ah wonderful people calling other people stupid for disagreeing with them

[spark valve]

that was in a tablet directed at a specific group for whom it's true that leaving the kingdom would cost them sapience

[foggy fractal]

mmm yummy fish

[silk dirge]

the fabled sk lore fishing minigame

[sinful nimbus]

I generally don't bait, people just don't interpret obvious jokes like "TC hasn't written anything good since base HK" correctly

[foggy fractal]

where my mythical fish at ?

[sinful nimbus]

I generally don't bait outside of Mosscord*

[sterile jacinth]

You’re entitled to your opinion and she to hers. I don’t like interacting with her because I find her rude and abrasive

[timber pond]

This Is exactly what i mean. Shit pepole say in Universe can just be wrong. A major theme Hollow knight has is "incorrect history" IMO

[limpid summit]

What

Okay sorry no explain lmao

[silk dirge]

you need to find all the fish scattered around moolrahp

[limpid summit]

That was blunt

[sinful nimbus]

What is stopping you from engaging with base HK as a one true complete story

We know almost everything there was to know and what wasn't known (EG Lifeblood beast) simply isn't super relevant

[elder rune]

The Sands of Karak were destroyed because the Choir treated the entire area like a fishing minigame.

[sinful nimbus]

And like obviously people would try engaging with stories as coherent entities

[foggy fractal]

the stop engaging with base HK man

[silk dirge]

this is the real silksong lore they dont want you to discuss

[sinful nimbus]

The latter

Boom

In the dream realm

[silk dirge]

the choir when the band kids walk in

[sinful nimbus]

PK moved it into the dream realm and his mind influenced it with buzzsaws and stuff its not super complicated

[sterile jacinth]

I think pale king destroyed it out of shame

[sinful nimbus]

Because the entire palace is missing

[eternal gazelle]

the white palace was moved from the real world to the dream world at which point it became subject to the rules of the plane it was now inhabiting

[silk dirge]

why did pk settle for lame dream defenses like sawblades instead of randomly spawning freight trains is he a fraud or something

[limpid summit]

Perhaps desire to label HK as similarly all over the place to make Silksong writing appear good by comparison

[sinful nimbus]

Why are we choosing WP as an example of ambiguous lore 🥀

what?

[lapis creek]

presumably as part of the effort to flee

[sinful nimbus]

Kingsmoulds don't have entire replicas of the palace in their head

[lapis creek]

from the collapsing kingdom

[timber pond]

OK but what are the Rules That govern HOW it happened?

[silk dirge]

white palace would be so much better if as you were about to reach pk's corpse a tram got fucking summoned out of nowhere and insta killed you

[sinful nimbus]

Its a bug magic world

[eternal gazelle]

yeah HK's magic is soft as a baby's head

[sinful nimbus]

A soft magic system does not prevent you from engaging with HK lore as a coherent entity

[timber pond]

Thats the disconnect. HOW things Happen is not Shown. And therefore alot of things can be reinterprieted. It is important.

[sinful nimbus]

Not really

[sterile jacinth]

My theory is that pk destroyed it out of shame

[sinful nimbus]

Shame for what?

[lapis creek]

the fact that the dynamics aren't explained in detail doesn't suggest to me that there are simply no rules

[limpid summit]

Unless you get woke with WL growth powers

[sinful nimbus]

And then he went to live in a dream replica anyway?

[silk dirge]

i think the most likely theory for pk is he committed suicide

[timber pond]

There is no other example of someone moving a real place to a Dream besides Lifeblood beast mabye.

[sinful nimbus]

Which doesn't stop me from engaging with HK's lore as a coherent entity

[silk dirge]

but idk about the palace

[lapis creek]

we don't know everything about physics in real life either but we assume there is consistency to it

[silk dirge]

i feel like the palace probably just blew up when he transported it to the dream realm

[sinful nimbus]

It is well known that you can move things between realms Unn Radiance Nightmare Heart Seer and The Knight do that too

I did yes

[limpid summit]

Dude the bum ass Dreamers do it lmao

[sinful nimbus]

I'm engaging with Skarr's theory and pointing out its flaws

[timber pond]

Yeah But with what and how?

[sinful nimbus]

Doesn't matter

[limpid summit]

And they would have gotten away with it too if it weren’t for that meddling Seer

[sterile jacinth]

I think he felt a shame for what he and wl did with vessels and maybe saw the palace as something he didn’t deserve or didn’t reflect him in the way it might have once done so he destroyed it and committed suicide basically

[sinful nimbus]

PK is a deity him having magic powers is fine

[timber pond]

When you introduce Things Like dream nail and otherwise it does.

[limpid summit]

If you want a plausible explanation PK demonstrates insane Soul mastery this likely translates to a measure of Dream power

[sinful nimbus]

Dream nail doesn't have a defined mechanism other than splitting the veil between the two realms which PK probably did too

What

[timber pond]

But do we KNOW thats how it Works? Silk works in fucking weird ways and not all Higher beings DO the same things.

[sinful nimbus]

I engaged with the available evidence and formed my own conclusion if you have a conclusion that fits with the available evidence that isn't mine I'd love to talk about it

[sterile jacinth]

I think he retreated out of shame and the saw blades in there are a manifestation of his own pain

[sinful nimbus]

Because it has evidence to back it up

[limpid summit]

Silk?

[spark valve]

grr how dare you suggest things should fit with the available evidence

[limpid summit]

What makes you think he did it with Silk

[sinful nimbus]

"Why do you think you're right" isn't a gotcha moment lol

[lapis creek]

can we slow down a little bit and return to the original point

[timber pond]

As in the material I mean. Not herself

[limpid summit]

Yes Silk the material

[foggy fractal]

all roads lead to retcon discussion

[limpid summit]

He might have used silk for the moulds

[lapis creek]

the idea that things can be interpreted in different ways doesn't mean team cherry doesn't have a consistent vision

[sinful nimbus]

"Multiple people believe different things therefore attempts to reach a solid coherent story are futile" lmao?

Multiple people believe the earth is flat that doesn't stop us from forming a model where the earth is, in fact, a globe

[spark valve]

if one account is consistent with the game and one account isn't the consistent one is better

[elder rune]

Is Starpengu complaining and everyone falling for the bait/genuine controversial takes a pivotal part of Silksong’s lore?

[silk dirge]

"what you hiding there"

me with a bug report form of all the retcons
/j dont actually do this

[timber pond]

Not really what i was getting at. Im saying the Aplication of these substances is not EVER enitrely Known.

They can do whateer the fuck the writers want

[sinful nimbus]

So

[foggy fractal]

🤑 me filing out a bug report with slabfly entry fixes !

[sinful nimbus]

Its incredibly obvious that White Palace is real people disagreeing doesn't really change that

[limpid summit]

Oh I thought you were talking about the situation specially I get what you mean

[silk dirge]

ok this id be fine with

[sinful nimbus]

No

[lapis creek]

they could have a lore bible sitting on a desk somewhere, if they don't present enough of it in the game then obviously we will have to look at the evidence and each come up with different interpretations, in order to model and approximate the truth in the best way possible

[limpid summit]

But like it’s implied multiple times the Palace was up and moved specifically

[sterile jacinth]

To be fair we are in the lore channel. Figuring stuff out is like the whole deal. I’d prefer it if everyone was respectful about it but people will be people :P

[sinful nimbus]

Multiple people believing something does not give it credibility

[limpid summit]

TK is pure

[sinful nimbus]

Everything is "up to interpretation" because you can disagree with anything you want

[random aspen]

my dumbass thought bug report was some report on the bugs from the game

[silk dirge]

the funny thing is tc actually responds to bug reports so if someone actually bug reported the slabfly entries they might actually fix them lmao

[sinful nimbus]

Interpretations can be wrong/right

[silk dirge]

talk about ruining the community's fun

[limpid summit]

Star how would you feel if you didn’t play Silksong this morning

[spark valve]

not really the right place for that

[foggy fractal]

Ellina the Chronicler ahh

[timber pond]

IT does when the thing itself IS missing IN some cases. Like Lemm says, Alot of History is just fucking gone Because Hallownest switched from Stone to spiders silk.

[sinful nimbus]

Why are you trying to get me to say people who disagree with me are stupid. That seems very disingenuous

[lapis creek]

i mean maybe they just forgot about particular pieces of evidence

[sinful nimbus]

People ofc don't bring their mental A-game to freaking hollow knight lore discussion so being wrong about something obvious isn't a real reflection of your intelligence

[silk dirge]

me on my way to slide into leths dms

[lapis creek]

like being able to die there in steel soul or being able to remove the kingsoul from there, etc

[sinful nimbus]

Because people can be wrong

Is this a serious question

[silk dirge]

what if someone pinged leth here during a slabfly discussion 😭

[lapis creek]

smart people can also be wrong

[silk dirge]

is he even still in this server

[sinful nimbus]

No that's a different sentence

[silk dirge]

i remember he got spam pinged after some event

[spark valve]

not really leth's job to deal with the protagonist of the game saying some weird shit about a sapient race

[silk dirge]

i dont remember if he left or not

[lapis creek]

i would severely judge somebody if they knew 100% of the evidence 100% of the time

i think kirb and tammo should go outside

[elder rune]

Holy hell this channel is cancerous… I’d just love to talk about or see lore instead of the toxicity.

[sinful nimbus]

What is there to question

[spark valve]

I live in the woods I go outside

[sinful nimbus]

I've thought about it there isn't really any other reasonable explanation for the palace vanishing with no sign of destruction or whatever

[foggy fractal]

do you speak for the trees

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I know :/ best we can do is try to be respectful but you know

[silk dirge]

speaking of leth nyLETH

[spark valve]

yes and they say silksong is MID because shellwood doesn't even have any good tree rep

[foggy fractal]

hmmmmm #noticing

[foggy fractal]

who told them ? a little birdie ?

[spark valve]

I did

[limpid summit]

What do you think of both Lace and Phantom being born in GMS’s sleep
Phantom being Weaver times in deeper sleep explaining her frayed form and position of being ignored and made to do menial labor
Lace being Conductor times in a moment of awareness where her form could be more easily tuned

[sterile jacinth]

Kate it might be best if you spend your energy elsewhere

[sinful nimbus]

They don't know about the evidence or they aren't being logical or something else idrc

[foggy fractal]

oh

[lapis creek]

tell us why you see things differently kate

[sinful nimbus]

Questioning why people believe certain things are unambiguously true is a big waste of time it should be obvious why some people believe what they say

[timber pond]

I think its cool i guess

[lapis creek]

i think people do a good job of listening and then they say why they disagree based on alignment with evidence

[sinful nimbus]

I didn't use the word stupid you're just making stuff up

[lapis creek]

it's ok to be uninformed about bug game

[sinful nimbus]

But yes I'm inclined to think many people who disagree with me are morons if that helps you sleep at night ig

[limpid summit]

Thank you!!!

Anything you want to talk about paradox

[sterile jacinth]

In the kindest way possible I think you should step away for now. You do not need to prove yourself right or convince her of anything. It’s a futile task. Take care of yourself

[sinful nimbus]

If I think of a question to ask I'll do it

[lapis creek]

it's possible i would just like to believe gms was fully lucid because it makes it more fucked up that she threw out phantom

[limpid summit]

I

[sinful nimbus]

Is your point that you can't believe anything with 100% certainty because you might be wrong if new evidence comes to light

[sterile jacinth]

Not fully but I do believe she had a control while asleep

[timber pond]

Well I am the OG Void Discussion guy ,But seeing as that's a hot Button Topic around here. Uh I think The citadel might ahve gotten Resource's from the City of Steel To construct it?

[spark valve]

this better aligns with phantom's stuff about being discarded too

[limpid summit]

I def understand the inclination cause it’s what we’re shown but like I feel like if we think about it would GMS actually do that

[eternal gazelle]

how come, aren't they sitting on a massive deposit of smelting material

[sinful nimbus]

If there's new evidence to suggest a different interpretation of WP I'll consider it and change my beliefs accordingly but there isn't any evidence along that line as of now so this entire conversation is meaningless

[spark valve]

yes absolutely if she thought phantom wasn't good enough

[sterile jacinth]

From what we know of city of steel they don’t seem like they’d be very helpful towards other kingdoms

[lapis creek]

to be fair if you came to me with some seeds i would tell you to plant them and see what happens, but hollow knight lore doesn't permit this kind of controlled experimentation because the game is already out

[limpid summit]

I mean she seemed content to let the weavers be her kids

She only switched up because they did

[timber pond]

Not That Kind of help. technical Help Perhaps.

With certain kinds of materials

[sinful nimbus]

If you don't fw my style of conversation idrc its a waste of time to constantly complain about that

[limpid summit]

Only thing that suggests Phantom was discarded is Phantom herself which would still make sense if she was born when GMS slept and wasn’t paying attention and the Weavers sent her to shitville

[limpid summit]

I mean hmm maybe

[eternal gazelle]

idk, their only direct interaction with the city of steel seems to be kidnapping a weaver descendant from their lands which is like... dubious

[timber pond]

Like How you Need Certain metals for electronics. Maybe the conductors got the Idea for aArchitects from an encounter with Steel HEarts?

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think the weavers knew about phantom. I think phantom came later

[limpid summit]

It does seem like the Steel Servants only really go to dead kingdoms (ugh)

[timber pond]

Depends on when that happens and Dialogue can open

[sterile jacinth]

To be fair we’ve only seen dead and or dying kingdoms

[eternal gazelle]

not to say that Phantom has to have been made after the exhaust organ, but the exhaust organ was definitely made after the weavers died out

[timber pond]

I think they Go to kingdoms with Pale beings Actually.

[eternal gazelle]

and it's the Phantom place

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I think they were created deliberately and maybe rebelled like lace did so gms discarded them

[eternal gazelle]

honestly the thing that makes me most doubt collaboration between steel masters and pharloom is the fact that Zi feels the need to be a sneaky little spy like Jinn

[elder rune]

Yeah ‘cus otherwise the games would be more like a life sim instead of a game primarily about combat and exploration.

Not that I’d mind that ofc

[limpid summit]

I feel like it’s just like the Weavers to send a “true” child of GMS to rot in the sewers it makes her place there seem more deliberate and meaningful

[sterile jacinth]

You’ve got a point. But once they leave I feel like gms would have maintained them similar to lace when it’s clear she does not

[limpid summit]

That is true

[timber pond]

Well Spies can be sent to Countries without thier knowledge To be fair. But i can see that

[limpid summit]

Maybe she’s so frayed that she’s severed from GMS’s silken sight

[unreal nimbus]

i have a theory that groal is the one in charge of everything

[limpid summit]

Not like anyone else in the game notices her

[unreal nimbus]

anyway bye

[sterile jacinth]

I doubt that too

Gms haunting reaches almost every corner of Pharloom

Plus the exhaust organ has silk spools in it

[limpid summit]

Yeah but it’s not like she can make silk spools animate and attack

That’s just cause dregs got swept up and collected in there

[sterile jacinth]

I’m saying gms can probably sense phantom there

[limpid summit]

I mean it’s not impossible but the game is framed around Lace

So GMS doesn’t mention her at all

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think we have any reason to believe she would have forgotten about one of her supposed beloved children

[lapis creek]

she can apparently catch trace amounts of silk in the bodies of regular bugs

[limpid summit]

Thematically I think it would be also interesting if GMS just woke up not even knowing she had a kid

[lapis creek]

i dont see why she would miss phantom or lace

[limpid summit]

Like phantom wasn’t worth her time

[sterile jacinth]

It seems like a deliberate attempt to pretend phantoms don’t exist

[elder rune]

To be entirely honest, Groal is one of the few leaders who has an active presence during the time Silksong takes place in, since GMS is still “asleep” even with the Haunting.

[limpid summit]

The thing is we aren’t given a reason that GMS would have discarded her either

[sterile jacinth]

That doesn’t really align with gms and her need for motherhood. She cares very much

[limpid summit]

Not if she doesn’t know you exist

[lapis creek]

that's true we aren't

[sterile jacinth]

I’m not really buying it

[lapis creek]

i would personally rather make up a reason than assume there isn't one because it could be more satisfying

[spark valve]

could just be aging

[lapis creek]

like what was gms supposed to do

[sterile jacinth]

I think gms was controlling like she was with the weavers and when phantom inevitably pushed back just a little gms freaked out

[lapis creek]

check for daughters upon awakening

[elder rune]

If he were to further hone in his soul magic (Such as unlocking the other two HK spells + binding) and taught his abilities to the rest of the Stilkin… well, I’d pray that Groal proves none too vengeful towards the average bug outside Bilewater.

[limpid summit]

Ok wait I can rephrase I have an idea

[unique tangle]

can we be real and say that "Mournful creature tasked alone to expel the Citadel's choking refuse." really makes no sense

[sterile jacinth]

When parents are controlling their kids often lash out. I think that’s what happened to phantom. Gms kicked them out of the house basically

[unique tangle]

like why did GMS abandon phantom and send her to work..... at the exhaust organ???

why??? thats so unrelated lol

[spark valve]

she probably didn't

[limpid summit]

That was likely the weavers

[sterile jacinth]

It’s what’s happening with lace

[lapis creek]

i think the distinction between lace and phantom's personalities in the hunter's journal could suggest that lace was made to have a different emotional range than phantom because gms can do that and would rather have happy kids than sad kids

[limpid summit]

Citadel didn’t exist pre GMS and Phantom old

[spark valve]

I mean sure and lace is designed to be forever stuck as a child mentally

[lapis creek]

but idk if it holds up

[unique tangle]

was she around during the weavers? i think thats very speculative

[limpid summit]

I mean to say the citadel existed pre gms is wrong

[unique tangle]

we know she was around during lace thats about the only timeframe we have of her existence

[sterile jacinth]

I think it was gms trying again with having children

Phantom is literally dependent on gms to live so it would make rebellion much more difficult

[limpid summit]

I think if GMS’s “silken sight” was inactive in her sleep and she had a baby Phantom then she wouldn’t have been able to sustain it with Silk
Phantom and Lace are autonomous Silk beings and phantom’s lack of constant Silk is causing her to fray
With a lack of Silk, phantom wouldn’t have been tapped into GMS’s “network” but wouldn’t have been recognized by GMS either because she can technically sustain herself without her mother’s help

So I don’t think she was purposefully abandoned but instead popped out into an unforgiving world and GMS didn’t even know she existed when she awoke

[spark valve]

I mean phantom was getting silk for a while it's not like the empty silk spools in exhaust organ were always that way

[limpid summit]

Silk heart 3 dialogue sort of gives the vibe of Lace’s deliberate conception being unique (as far as GMS is aware)

[sterile jacinth]

They might have rebelled and helped the conductors

[sterile jacinth]

This is speculation but it explains where they get the silk

[lapis creek]

i think phantom may have participated in the revolution and just got a job later it's not that deep

[unique tangle]

so the weavers tasked her to work in the exhaust organ? why? and why did they sustain her with silk too then?

[limpid summit]

Get on Phantom miscarriage this is the new fad

[elder rune]

Scenario: What if Groal mastered soul magic to where he was able to use all three HK spells (Potentially including the Flukenest variant of Vengeful Spirit but with Muckmaggots) alongside bind, and how screwed would Pharloom be if he were able to effectively tutor the other Stilkin on his techniques?

[limpid summit]

They didn’t sustain her with silk

[lapis creek]

somebody gotta do it

[unique tangle]

then where did all the silk spools in the exhaust organ come from and what were they used for

[limpid summit]

She’s tasked with expelling the shitty silk maybe she spooled it herself in an effort to try and sustain herself

[sterile jacinth]

He would have gone even more crazy

[spark valve]

he could probably use them if he got them, shamans can package their spells in a way where people can just use them

[limpid summit]

What is the exhaust organ for lol

[lapis creek]

as a result of having a controlling parent, phantom is the best piano player in all of pharloom. this is REALISTIC

[limpid summit]

Ballador in her ear like whiplash

[spark valve]

um actually it's an organ genius

[unique tangle]

expelling exhaust?

[limpid summit]

Were you rushing or dragging

[unique tangle]

being an organ? playing organ music

[limpid summit]

Expelling the citadel’s refuse

Which was silk dregs

[spark valve]

dregs are probably in it but it's likely more than just that

dregs are in everything

[unique tangle]

the silk dregs didnt come from the exhaust organ otherwise bilewater would be covered in dregs too

like greymoor

[limpid summit]

Woah

Really???

[lapis creek]

she had to have her homework done by 5 so she could go to organ practice at 6 and be done in time for longpin practice at 7:30

[timber pond]

Silk in this game is like microplastics lol

[spark valve]

don't forget theater rehearsals on top of that

[unique tangle]

but also where is she getting the spools from even, i can get her gathering silk on her own but who gave her all those heaps of spools

[sterile jacinth]

Better not do anything other than exactly what I say or I disown you. Everyone always leaves me

[limpid summit]

Refuse could have been spoils

You’ve never thrown out a bad spool that you thought didn’t work

Phantom rooting through trash and shitty silk to try and sustain her frayed form is tuff as hell I choose to believe

[lapis creek]

i have no idea what the organ is actually supposed to be

[unique tangle]

citadel be pumping out their spools through the exhaust organ?

[lapis creek]

maybe it's just noise

[spark valve]

it's exhaust the citadel does metallurgy n shit

[lapis creek]

fair enough

[unique tangle]

its supposed to be aura

[limpid summit]

Its the heart of the citadel

[spark valve]

they burn coal

[eternal gazelle]

and it's an organ because they're like that

[limpid summit]

Haha see what I did there 👅

[unique tangle]

they couldnt just have a regular automated smog pumping system

[sinful nimbus]

Its an organ so phantom can cast awesome aura farming spells

[timber pond]

Exhausting chemical waste from the mechanical Process of the citadel (largely Trash from underworks Most likely)

[unique tangle]

they gotta attach it to a musical instrument

and make it manually powered

[spark valve]

playing music could give it dual function to also contribute to the gms sleep spell

[lapis creek]

but it's above the underworks

[unique tangle]

you dont understand this is essential to the citadel

[craggy smelt]

everything must be music

[lapis creek]

ah whatever

[midnight reef]

in the end, it looks cool as hell

[timber pond]

Nah its conncted to it and below it?

[midnight reef]

and is a set piece for one of the really cool boss fights lol

[unique tangle]

it also plays some great music

i wonder if grimm recorded his boss fight track in the exhaust organ

[midnight reef]

I like Phantom, and the cross stitch is one of my favorite spells despite it being hard to use

[lapis creek]

my first thought was that the core, in sustaining the song, would produce random noise that would have to be exhausted so that the song would be perfect. but this makes no sense because the noise is itself musical to an extent

[midnight reef]

also, a really random question, where the hell does the First Sinner keep her arms?

[eternal gazelle]

maybe, but it's pretty distant from the rest of the citadel and it's only audible in a few rooms in bilewater and... underworks maybe?

[craggy smelt]

greymoor has like catchers and things setup to gather the dregs, bilewater might've been too hostile for that
or the dregs don't gather there as much (greymoor is below)

[timber pond]

Shit from underwoks gets Exauhsted through the Organ

[spark valve]

sure but so are songshrines and exhaust organ is directly connected to the very same pipes which lead not only directly to cradle but encircle gms herself

[eternal gazelle]

I guess the pipes going up to the cradle could connect to it somewhere

[lapis creek]

oh i see it

[eternal gazelle]

I don't think the songshrines contributed to the lullaby, they have a pretty distinct purpose

[lapis creek]

sorry im just used to cutting straight into bellway lol

[unique tangle]

i mean yeah its literally shown in the gameplay too; once you kill phantom the pipes in the underworks shut off

[eternal gazelle]

unless that purpose was originally something else

[spark valve]

I mean first shrine was clearly not used for the same thing

[eternal gazelle]

yeah

[spark valve]

and there's a songshrine bell in atla

[eternal gazelle]

oh interesting

[lapis creek]

idk how the wraiths are created from the mist

[spark valve]

they're clearly not unrelated to the main function

[lapis creek]

if it's just smoke

[timber pond]

I guess pHantom is creating them Via the smog somehow lol

[unique tangle]

its probably just phantom using silk and exhaust to do some silk magic stuff

[eternal gazelle]

I would also like to believe that the song shrine's tone (the silksong) is the GMS lullaby

[lapis creek]

i mean if there's silk in the air and water i guess it's not unbelievable

[craggy smelt]

the first shrine bell seems to keep the Haunted away, I think Caretaker mentions that
Silk's thralls avoiding the music is interesting

[spark valve]

it seems like they (or at least the first one) were the first parts of the citadel functioning then it just got built out

[unique tangle]

gms was supposed to be weak to bells originally

[sinful nimbus]

I mean music is what keeps her asleep still

[spark valve]

yeah

[sinful nimbus]

The bellshrine plays a song that nullifies her power or whatever

[spark valve]

the songshrines outside the citadel are probably now not doing too much but it definitely seems like they were important at one point

[craggy smelt]

all five ringing to make the Citadel vulnerable is appropriate
and their original function of luring more pilgrims in to become more voices in the choir

[spark valve]

plus there's the whole bellvein situation

[lapis creek]

do you think it's possible for them to track how many bells are rung by a given individual

[timber pond]

Its Like Predictive Programing for the Pilgrims lol

[spark valve]

this is gonna make as much sense as hk stag tolls

[sinful nimbus]

They recognize Hornet's voice or whatever

[craggy smelt]

the door has 5 bells on it that resonate with each big bell rung, so probably

[lapis creek]

or does the door only open because the 5 bells were rung without any memory of them all being hornet