sk-lore

[marsh wagon]

yup

[craggy smelt]

yeah, the main character, the Knight, is a vessel

little thing with a holy shell and a heart of Void

[slim tree]

is it just me or does the cradle climb not set up for some sort of absrad climb for gms

like.. it would be perfect

[marsh wagon]

so what makes them different

are they evil

yin yang

[craggy smelt]

different from what?

[marsh wagon]

from other bugs

[craggy smelt]

they're a Void entity, wearing the holy shell of a dead child born from gods

that's pretty different

they aren't evil really, but they might have different priorities from regular bugs

generally they seem pretty nice

[slim tree]

vessels are baby

[craggy smelt]

it's up to the player controlling them in a lot of cases, ig

[foggy fractal]

I mean that's just a fact
gms fight only takes place on that one platform

[slim tree]

no i mean like

if they added godhome dlc stuff

instead of climbing up to radiance what if we climbed back down to gms

[foggy fractal]

what does godhome have to do with radiance climb ?

[slim tree]

i figured since gms wasnt really a hard fight they'd give her some sort of radiance treatment

give her like an extra phase where instead of just continuing the fight at that little platform she breaks it and decends to the bottom

[midnight zinc]

I would not be surprised in the slightest if DLC gives her a revamp

[foggy fractal]

maybe in a dlc maybe not
radiance already had the climb in base game too

[slim tree]

not that little fight at the top though

[foggy fractal]

I'm pretty certain we'll get some sort of gms enchanced later down the line
how much they'll actually change though is anybody's guess

[midnight zinc]

Ah yes, the “if I die here I’m blowing up Australia” part

[slim tree]

if i die here im turning the sun into a black hole

[midnight zinc]

In the pantheon anyway

[craggy smelt]

Lost Silk

[slim tree]

please no

just give us gms in her prime

im tired of lost

i want to be found

[craggy smelt]

Grand Mother Silk After Coffee

[midnight zinc]

Exquisite Mother Silk

Great Grand Mother Silk if TC is feeling brave

[vestal swan]

GMT

[slim tree]

grand mother terrance?

[midnight zinc]

Grand Mother Tilk

[vestal swan]

Thread bc it's more silk strung together

[midnight zinc]

Mmmm okay

Well I’d bet my kidneys that were getting a pintress and seamstress team up fight

[slim tree]

pls god no

[vestal swan]

Alt ending where she thinks lace actually died and reabsorbs her

[midnight zinc]

Also a fight where the Green Prince helps the Cogwork dancers

[regal crow]

Absolute radiance, the final boss of the pantheons

[vestal swan]

I hope not because Pinstress was a fraud

[slim tree]

i love pinstress. top 10 characters. her fight was genuinely bottom 5 i enjoyed groal more

[vestal swan]

They were on basically the same level for me

I was hugging the wall in both fights trying not to get hit with bullshit movement

[midnight zinc]

True actually, I choose to believe she was so ass because she had nearly frozen to deal and her joints were still stiff

[foggy fractal]

yeah yeah and radiance already had the climb in base game too

[midnight zinc]

That’s insane, it was easy but it wasn’t bad

[slim tree]

it was hard for me because it was so frustrating trying to hit her. like a primal aspid but worse

[midnight zinc]

If we’re talking about ass Act 3 fights then Nyleth needs to get the fuck out of my face

[midnight zinc]

Damn, can’t relate, I died to her maybe once

[vestal swan]

Dropped my boss tierlist in the appropriate channel if you want to go laugh at it

[foggy fractal]

now do one but based on lore so you can drop it here too

[vestal swan]

Ehhh, maybe

[orchid pine]

So if Absolute Radiance is Radiance in her prime, does that mean that Radiance just unlocked in? Is she stupid?

[foggy fractal]

absrad is the result of godseekers attuning to radiance so no

[orchid pine]

So that version of Rad never actually existed, Absrad is the perfect version of Rad but is only a theoretical?

[dawn sluice]

yeah, kinda like how pure vessel is the attuned hollow knight

the perfect hollow knight who was actually pure and didnt have that idea instilled

a pure vessel

[dawn sluice]

grand mother rope

[orchid pine]

Isn’t the only difference between The Hollow Knight and the Pure Vessel fight is that the Pure Vessel was Hollow? but other than that are exactly the same?

[dawn sluice]

yup
pure vessel is just the truly hollow knight

unfortunately hollow knight got an "idea instilled" and got corrupted and started decaying and all that

[orchid pine]

Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

[dawn sluice]

if only white lady wasnt vague with what that idea was

[orchid pine]

Well, the fact that THK turned back in the abyss showed they were a bad egg from the start. I feel like that only was magnified by PK’s influence

[hoary furnace]

from path of pain it seems to be clear

[dawn sluice]

it's either that
OR they just heard a noise and wanted to check it out

[dawn sluice]

im not doing the path of pain ever

[hoary furnace]

path of pain was awesome

[dawn sluice]

what happens

[hoary furnace]

2 second cutscene

[dawn sluice]

what rewards do we get

[vestal swan]

PV is pre radiance

[hoary furnace]

the cutscene itself, and seal of binding journal entry

[dawn sluice]

thats
it

[hoary furnace]

the cutscene is worth it

[dawn sluice]

whats the cutscene

[hoary furnace]

PK and young THK sharing a moment

it's sweet but ultimately tragic knowing the consequences

[orchid pine]

The question is, do ya’ll think that Ghost potentially could have been Hollow? I doubt it after everything that happens, but theoretically if the three seals were removed the second Ghost returns to Hallownest would Ghost have been “hollow” enough from their time in the wastes

[dawn sluice]

here my young THK, this.. is a sawblade

[dawn sluice]

i think they were hollow until they got the voidheart

[limpid summit]

There doesn’t seem to be anything that the wastes would do to really “dehollowify” TK

Presumably it was nonhollow from conception

[hoary furnace]

the wastes made it more hollow

[dawn sluice]

i wonder what the extent of voidhearts control over void is?
it's not infinite

[limpid summit]

Presumably TK can control any void it wants to control

But like not subconsciously it has to act on it

Void volume is pretty meaningless cause it can like self replicate

[dawn sluice]

so that explains SOTV

[hoary furnace]

we had a discussion about that a ago days ago, and we came to a conclusion it's like aquaman

[foggy fractal]

if we go by our human logic than a being that has no mind to think couldn't possibly do anything because everything takes thinking, walking around, fighting stuff with a nail, and intentionally doing what the knight did with the dreamers certainly takes a mind to think so 🤷‍♂️

[orchid pine]

Everything outside of the kingdom of Hallownest becomes mindless (I don’t remember the reference but it is said). Ghost would have become less *conscious than they already were out in the wastes

[limpid summit]

Yeah exactly

[dawn sluice]

and it also explains the shade lord

[limpid summit]

No you’re right

But TK wasn’t given a mind by the beacon

That only applies to those who benefit from the beacon (Quirrel avoids it with the mask)

[vestal swan]

PK didn't ruin THK

[dawn sluice]

i think children of the pale king simply just have mind since they're part higher being

and all higher beings just have mind by default

[limpid summit]

Would make sense

Vessel minds are likely void replicating the fetus minds in some way

Cause void has a mind of its own

[hoary furnace]

why not?

[vestal swan]

Bc they were always impure

[dawn sluice]

anyway i love how the different kinds of maggot species is either massive coward with large head or gross maggots that grow into roaches

[orchid pine]

I’d argue that’s more “instilled purpose”. The vessels knew what they were created for, knew PK didn’t select them but they still knew their purpose and some of them did try to carry out the PK’s will anyway

[dawn sluice]

also
why arent maggots hostile despite being infected

[limpid summit]

Either infection is overridden by their natural cowardly nature or it’s a glitch

[dawn sluice]

which is probably why the knight returned the moment it heard the radiance
maybe it thought with it's mind "welp the hollow knight is failing time to come back"

[limpid summit]

Enemies by default have infection clouds that includes mender bug who definitely is not infected

[dawn sluice]

the idea that these beings are SO cowardly that they just simply override the infection is really funny

[limpid summit]

Yeah I think it’s lowkey a glitch

But as long as we gotta justify it that’s what wengot

[orchid pine]

Exactly. It can’t be a coincidence that the second the Radiance was about to escape the Kratos of Hallownest returned to do what it must

[dawn sluice]

kratos of hallownest?

[limpid summit]

I think no mind is supposed to be the least literal of PK’s tenets

Cause he was aware void had its own fractured mind

[dawn sluice]

yeah he just means you have to be STUPID

[limpid summit]

He just meant a single minded dude

[dawn sluice]

and the most literal is probably "you are the vessel, you are the hollow knight"

[orchid pine]

Dude Ghost was moving through Hallownest like Kratos. Numerous powerful threats and even the Grimm Troupe were taken out if the span of like a day or two by one little guy.

[stark halo]

I mean bugs being so cowardly they retain their cowardice through the infection is canonical

[limpid summit]

Yeah but the cowardly husks do still deal contact damage

Maggots don’t

[dawn sluice]

the grimm troupe being taken out is moreso of a decisions thing and most people decided not to banish them (id assume)

[limpid summit]

There’s no hint of malice

[dawn sluice]

unless you equipped grimm child during embrace the void then the nightmare heart is DEAD

[orchid pine]

Ooohhh boy I didn’t think about that

[sinful nimbus]

Why would that kill it

[foggy fractal]

also what makes it different from dnm

[stark halo]

if he got his information from the AC (which he likely did, because the info we get in the SK egg is way too specific otherwise) he likely at the very least thought that Shades were empty beings

[dawn sluice]

so yknow how the charm summons the grimm child
and embrace the void just gets rid of the knight to summon the shade lord
and how things are just void now
yeah

[silk dirge]

ok wait i just had an insane idea

[sinful nimbus]

Dream No More showcases that the Lord of Shades can come in contact with things and not kill them so idk why Grimmchild would be destroyed unless The Knight really really hated it

[dawn sluice]

i wonder how long hallownest lasted after the hollow knight was sealed

[sinful nimbus]

Which would be weird since it willingly aided in the ritual

[foggy fractal]

also the knight is the shade lord

[silk dirge]

what if the verdania memory orbs were instead used for red memory(this is assuming a world where verdania is a real area)

[dawn sluice]

the lord of shades was in dream no more?

[silk dirge]

you could do something really cool with unlocking like a final big memory

[orchid pine]

When does the lord of shades appear in DNM?

[stark halo]

lord of shades and void given focus are different things

[sinful nimbus]

Lord of Shades refers to The Knight with Void Heart which appears in both endings

[stark halo]

lord of shades is just the knight with void heart

[orchid pine]

No that’s something else

[sinful nimbus]

Shade Lord is the fanon term for the ETV version which is probably what you are thinking of

[silk dirge]

its really confusing terminology

i think also bc in the game files its called that

[dawn sluice]

i feel like sticking to technical terms instead of just calling it ascended knight would be worse and more confusing

[solid cypress]

No, it's not a commentary on capitalism. The Citadel is a corrupt theocracy, there's nothing capitalistic about it, except the amass of wealth based on exploitations, which happen across all known systems. (Just want to get it out there)

[orchid pine]

I’m pretty sure this guy isn’t in DNM

[foggy fractal]

shade lord was never a canon name to describe the form it takes in etv, that's just a file name iirc, the name that describes it in game via godhome statue is void given focus

the knight is refered to as the lord of shades when it gets the voidheart so both the forms at the radiance fights are the lord of shades

[sinful nimbus]

Well this is The Knight who is also in Dream No More

But again Lord of Shades isn't that form specifically

[dawn sluice]

i feeelll like sticking to more widespread fanon terms instead of choosing something really close to said fanon terms but technically correct with the game is a bit less confusing and makes more sense to use

[silk dirge]

i think some of these are used

[sinful nimbus]

Meh

[silk dirge]

i remember something about how some of them were used but most were cut

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone now knows what it means here so its not a big deal

[dawn sluice]

idk thats just me

[silk dirge]

maybe im misremembering

[dawn sluice]

maybe the were using in that one widow cutscene

[silk dirge]

yeah

[dawn sluice]

no clue to be honest

[silk dirge]

thats what i was thinking

[orchid pine]

Interesting. Obviously them being cut calls into question their canonicity, but we can probably assume they were only cut because there wasn’t a place for them

[silk dirge]

i remember someone saying some of those sprites are in the widow cutscene and are just really hard to see

[sinful nimbus]

The Widow mutilation thing is interesting

Kinda unfortunate she wasn't more fleshed out but

[dawn sluice]

the shoved pins into her back but not first sinners unfortunately

if only

[silk dirge]

we missed out on the real cutscenes

[orchid pine]

Do ya’ll think Widow serves GMS out of fear or devotion?

[sinful nimbus]

but I love the diving bell cutscene and the void dive cutscene with literally nothing in it 😍

[foggy fractal]

backtracking to the discussion before though, why would etv knight kill the grimmchild

[dawn sluice]

devotion

they seem pretty manic

imagine

weaver holding gavel

[orchid pine]

Yeah especially considering that big platform in the middle

[silk dirge]

we couldve gotten conductor mizello cutscene

[sinful nimbus]

Mizello my goat 🗣️ 🔥 💯

tbh I think there's something nice about just existing in the world with minimal cutscene interruption

[orchid pine]

Mayhaps after being discarded

[dawn sluice]

i like ballador more

[sinful nimbus]

Old Penitent (Romino) > Blasted Steps Conductor (these may be the same guy) > Ballador > Mizello

[silk dirge]

anyways "turning red memory into what verdania is right now" was not on my things i expected to randomly think of that could cook

[foggy fractal]

where did the old penitent is romino thing come from again

[sinful nimbus]

Now why would you want to turn Red Memory into a poorly rewritten dream sequence with nothingburger gameplay and bosses

[twin thunder]

I just realized something about the lifeblood infection.

[orchid pine]

It was probably the original plan considering the Vespa sprites in the files

[sinful nimbus]

There was a random myth that he sung the conductor melody

His dialogue implies he caused a lot of suffering though so its still on the table

[twin thunder]

It's so similar to what happened with the radiance in Hallownest 😭

[foggy fractal]

right, I tried my hardest to hear it but can't, the only similarity was they had similar voices

[dawn sluice]

why do you think blasted steps conductor is better than ballador

[sinful nimbus]

Cuz he's also romino

[foggy fractal]

maybe

[twin thunder]

Who's the blasted steps conductor?

[dawn sluice]

romino and huliot

[orchid pine]

Fake. Lifeblood isn’t even that bad and you’re not helping by spreading Pale Kings “Lifeblood = Bad” propaganda

[dawn sluice]

lifeblood = bad

[orchid pine]

Legalize Lifeblood in Pharloom and Hallownest

[foggy fractal]

no idea who but there's a conductor's mantle there, and the only name we have still is romino

[twin thunder]

It changes the colour of the eyes, grants bugs false life, makes creatures shoot out blue/orange blobs like Lost Kin and Zango for example. Do I have to give more examples?

[foggy fractal]

this is with unblur mod btw, it's hard to notice in game

[twin thunder]

Oh alright didn't see that.

[silk dirge]

this might be visible in the opening cutscene

[dawn sluice]

who wrote the poem at the beginning again

[silk dirge]

i tried looking for it and it might be there or i might be seeing things

[sinful nimbus]

What the heck are these jar looking things

Bro was trying to get a sip of the pale oil 😭

[twin thunder]

Don't even get me started on the lifeblood higher being residing in dreams, like the radiance.

[sinful nimbus]

Romino

[twin thunder]

Monomon is still the better poet-

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah because Monomon is a real character

Also she's glazing PK

Romino is just saying "Wow its about to go down"

[twin thunder]

Who wouldn't, he was way better than GMS

[orchid pine]

Nuh uh. I literally take lifeblood with everything and grow blue cabbage in my backyard and I haven’t felt anything different.

[dawn sluice]

its really reflective of the kingdoms with how pharloom sucks

[solid cypress]

PK is so hot

[twin thunder]

Sure.

[sinful nimbus]

Would've gone kinda hard if each act started with a poem tbh

[foggy fractal]

idk something similar is also in karmelita's arena like what are those things dawg

[fathom hill]

yoo true

[orchid pine]

I mean, I think the local pests have begun to mutate a tad, but that’s just because they weren’t strong enough

[silk dirge]

anyways continuing on what my idea for red memory was basically you might go around a heavily cut down memory map of hallownest which would probably mostly take place in deepnest and at the end you would unlock a memory of pk which gives you a pale aura

[twin thunder]

Act 3 poem :

"We're fucked, we're crumbling at the seems, try and beat lost lace and you won't succeed."

👍

[silk dirge]

i might actually have time to develop this idea now

[dawn sluice]

nope you didnt see lifeblood first i did its my new thing called plasmium and i discovered it

[twin thunder]

Actually I saw it first-

[silk dirge]

like ive been thinking so much these past few days how you could have an arc with hornets relationship to pk to contrast with gms and lace

itd cook so hard idk why they didnt do that

[solid cypress]

The guy in your pfp is so hot

[fathom hill]

deadass like some junkies put weirdass names to combinations of drugs irl lol

[orchid pine]

HOW DARE YOU COME INTO MY GARDEN, STEAL MY SUSTENANCE, AND THEN CLAIM IT AS YOUR OWN

[twin thunder]

I found it first ✋

I did bring it up and the bad side effects, such as losing your mind-

[fathom hill]

mine is hotter

[solid cypress]

The guy in your pfp is so hot

[twin thunder]

I thought that was a skinned rug

[solid cypress]

Ew

[fathom hill]

he may as well be

[dawn sluice]

okay lets get back to lore

[orchid pine]

True

[fathom hill]

what u guys talking abt

conductor romino?

[solid cypress]

Pure Vessel might be canonically the hottest character

[orchid pine]

I found it first, LIFEBLOOD IS MY DISCOVERY, MINE THE OTHERS ARE LIARS

[twin thunder]

I FOUND IT FIRST AND I HAVE PROOF.

[fathom hill]

You mean plasmium?

[twin thunder]

SEE I SAID IT FIRST

[fathom hill]

🚬

[solid cypress]

Why do you think Grand Mother Silk refers to herself as We?

[twin thunder]

Because she's non-binary ofc.

[solid cypress]

Why see us wake, and not see me wake.

[orchid pine]

That’s like calling lemon juice Yellow Orange nectar and saying it’s a completely different thing

[solid cypress]

Is she identifying as a communist

[twin thunder]

She's identifying as me.

[orchid pine]

Ok buddy

[fathom hill]

maybe she is hoping her and her children

just lace rn but yknow

[solid cypress]

Lace is not sleeping

[twin thunder]

IT'S TIME.

[fathom hill]

she isnt either no?

how is she sleeping and coordinating the kidnappings

[solid cypress]

GMS was still sleeping until we challenge her

[fathom hill]

how is she sleeping and coordinating the kidnappings

or just mind control shit

[solid cypress]

Partly conscious

Is my theory

She was controlling Citadel bugs with haunting, so ig mind control?

[fathom hill]

maybe "wake" is more of a awakening of power or something

[modest basalt]

that’s seems pretty likely

[fathom hill]

anyways only gms seems to do that with herself

lace does refer to gms as she

[solid cypress]

You're suggesting Lace will become Ultralace after Hornet gets absorbed?

[fathom hill]

so either its referring to herself and her children or

lace is being homophobic again

this brat i swear to god

[solid cypress]

Why homophobic, why is that relevant

[fathom hill]

second time she ignores someone preferred pronouns

[fathom hill]

Maybe? we dont have info on that

[solid cypress]

I'm sure we/us is a very dumb pronoun. I'm on Lace's side here.

[fathom hill]

its more of like gms will become stronger

[orchid pine]

Oh no

[fathom hill]

and lace will be by her side, maybe not stronger but in her team

[orchid pine]

We should like…. Not discuss the ethics of pronouns

[solid cypress]

It's possible the Haunting conditioned her to think of herself as the entire Citadel?

[fathom hill]

prnourns

[solid cypress]

Bellhart Pavo said the haunting was a hivemind

[fathom hill]

ethics?

[fathom hill]

could be actually

maybe its awakening of power for the citadel though

do we know what are the silk hearts?

obviously they are memories of sorts

[solid cypress]

No idea

[fathom hill]

is gms really saying that to hornet or someone else

irrelevant id guess but yknow

[orchid pine]

Zotes pronouns are his title card names

[solid cypress]

The Bell Beast and Whiteward silkheart can be explained but Lace silkheart is ??? Where did it come from

[solid cypress]

I'm decently sure it's GMS sleep talking when thinking about Hornet

[opaque parcel]

could the yumas and uumas be related?

[dawn sluice]

maybe
perhaps they're like oomas that arent infected

[solar tapir]

just different species

[opaque parcel]

but both are jellyfish-esque creatures that end in ma and are white-ish colored

[blissful harbor]

different types of jellyfish
shows monomon wasn’t a complete freak

[dawn sluice]

maybe oomas are like yumas but monomon began doing weird stuff and turned them into what they are now

[opaque parcel]

maybe monomon put something that was like a bit like void so she could keep her archive safe in case the hk didnt work, but thats a huge stretch

[solar tapir]

and that are all the similarities they have

The one is explosive jellyfish and another just an ocean critter

[still dew]

Is Nyleth a higher being?

[limpid summit]

The Uomas are likely artificial

[opaque parcel]

i dont know the small one names im tlaking about the tiny ones

[limpid summit]

The yumas are definitely supposed to be evocative

Might be related in the sense that Monomon used real creatures as a template when designing her infection drones

[blissful harbor]

maybe

[dawn sluice]

uoma?

[opaque parcel]

[[uoma]]

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Uoma

[opaque parcel]

yeah those bitchasses

[ionic bear]

my silksong theory is that steel is like a balancing thing with void and pale beings

[blissful harbor]

steel clan are void cops

[silk dirge]

do we have any idea if bell beast was the primary mode of transport for the citadel

bc that one pilgrim mentions "golden carriages" which seems to imply to me bell beast is not the intended transport for the bellways

[opaque parcel]

well for the citadel there was the ventrica

[ionic bear]

my theory mainly comes from whatever compression is to pale beings, so they can do that with steel (???) and also how sharpe's nose is a void tendril, so they can manipulate void aswell (???) and also void is black and pale is white and then steel is grey, the inbetween

[silk dirge]

i mean like around the kingdom

[opaque parcel]

oh well im not sure

[silk dirge]

what was the purpose of the bellways even is my question

since pilgrims arent allowed to use them

[opaque parcel]

i vaguely remember shakra saying something about spikes in there so im pretty sure they might've been defense tunnels

[ionic bear]

i think its for non pilgrim bugs to travel around, or bugs who were unaffiliated with citadel/ bugs who had already made the climb and now had specific jobs

[silk dirge]

yeah probably

[dawn sluice]

there was no mode of transport for any area outside the citadel since you were expected to make a pilgrimage to prove your worth

[silk dirge]

then why do bellways exist

theres a pilgrim who mentions gilded carriages were used to travel through them

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Fearful_Pilgrim

"Oh... you've come to hide down here too, then? 'Tis a fearful world out there. If you can keep quiet, I don't mind you joining me.

Hornet: You've chosen a curious place to rest, ma'am. This pit of bells and the structure around it... they suggest a station for travel, though one long abandoned.
Aye. Rumours in the camp say these bells run throughout the lands, great veins of them, forged by our ancient kin.
And some even say bugs used to travel through them, in gilded carriages no less!
Surely such fanciful travel would be a sin for us pilgrims. We must walk and climb and crawl using only our own meagre claws... Only thus can we prove our devotion. "

[limpid summit]

Bellways are way neat

[dawn sluice]

maybe, considering the amount of bells, you were expected to only use them if you were like
a worker who's outside the citadel but still needed to do work, like in deep docks

[silk dirge]

this makes me think the bellways werent intended for like bell beast

[dawn sluice]

or those annoying pin throwing guys

[limpid summit]

They conflict with the Weavers’ idea of an austere stone citadel but also seem anathema to the conductors’ super terrible society

So what’s the deal

[silk dirge]

maybe bell beast is descended from a grom that made it into the bellways somehow who evolved to adapt to the bells

we do see species that have adapted to bell environments

the furms in the bell veins

[silk dirge]

this is probably also connected to wtf is up with the bells

those are still a mystery

[dawn sluice]

fluffy

[solar tapir]

maybe gilded carriages meant some tents on the bell beasts like the sits on stags

[dawn sluice]

to rephrase this better:
people who work for the citadel but not in the citadel

[solar tapir]

or something that way

[dawn sluice]

otherwise how are you expected to get back after capturing all those weavers

or after slaving away in deep docks

or being a pondcatcher

[solar tapir]

although I agree that bell beast may not be intended to travel there

[silk dirge]

they probably were a mode of transport to important areas for the citadel to check up on things i imagine

[quaint spear]

This all could be fought against pre-tyranny GMS but now yeah you're right

[silk dirge]

i feel like its possible the bilewater station was used to check up on exhaust organ

[dawn sluice]

yeah
i wonder why phantom made THE MIST though
the wraiths kinda look like phantom and steal your silk

[silk dirge]

maybe the blasted steps station was used for checking on squirrms

[quaint spear]

Barely any areas are safe, when Nyleth 'died' the woods became unsafe as hell, Karmelita can no longer hold on the haunting for Hunter's March, Sands of Karak has always been bad lmao, Verdinia was eradicated and more. Also the haunting itself made anything unsafe

[dawn sluice]

squirm?

[silk dirge]

the baby judges

[dawn sluice]

never seen

[silk dirge]

the ones that go WAWAWAWA

[quaint spear]

SO CUTEE

[dawn sluice]

that doesnt
ring a
bell

[silk dirge]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Squirrm

[primal linden]

They likely steal silk for her own preservation, despite wanting a death apart from a slow decline, she likely didnt want to die before getting that climatic end

[edgy nebula]

karak was probably one of the safest areas ever if you were apart of it

[solar tapir]

I still do not understand why tunnels completely made from piles of bells

[dawn sluice]

yeah

[quaint spear]

Basically the Last Judge is a Squirm who succeeded and rose to the top to become a judge

[silk dirge]

i feel like bellways and bellhart are probably connected in some way

[solar tapir]

surprised that pharloom didnt have some trams or trains with their tech level

[quaint spear]

Bellhart was probrably built because a Bellway was there, making it a central point connected by literally all the bells around the area, leading it to become a kind of cool town.

[dawn sluice]

where can i find them

[primal linden]

Likely from all the pilgrims carrying them around all the time, then dying on their journey. It became a littering problem in pharloom, so they reused them for bellhart and other infrastructure

[quaint spear]

South of Blasted Steps, play Needolin

[dawn sluice]

alr thanks

[quaint spear]

Don't know exactly the location but just look at the bottom of it and play the Needolin there's like nothing there also

[silk dirge]

oh yeah this could be a good theory

[solar tapir]

its still a strange material to build tunnels with

[muted lantern]

not south of blasted steps, its in the same tall room that connects to grindles room and karak shortcut through a breakable wall iirc

[dawn sluice]

ill see if you recall correctly

[quaint spear]

@dawn sluice Nvm I fucking lied here's the actual location

[muted lantern]

I WAS RIGHT!!!!

[quaint spear]

That's odd I remember them being directly south

[muted lantern]

I feel so vindicated

[primal linden]

Silk is a strange thing to base your entire society on to the point of silk experimentation corpse storages

[muted lantern]

oh also i realized what plinneys grindstone is made of!

[quaint spear]

They based it on silk and song also

[dawn sluice]

it was kind of less of a society and more of a convenient way for the weavers to force some bugs to deal with their problems for them

[muted lantern]

Its made of silk dregs, they are the same grey color, they must serve as some kind of abrasive substance like steel wool

[solar tapir]

yeeah... But what about bells anyway

[silk dirge]

the main reason im asking this is im trying to come up with a story for bell beast and this lore is kinda important for it

[quaint spear]

Silk was thought to just level up peeps so they did it, it also benefitted Weavers and general bugs a ton if they knew how to deal with it

[solar tapir]

how tunnels didnt collapse

[edgy nebula]

bell beast sucks we shouldve gotten a huge splinter instead

[silk dirge]

mainly a lot of people talk about how they want beastling call earlier

so im trying to make that part of a story with bell beast

[primal linden]

They likely piled up faster than the deep docks could melt them down idk

[quaint spear]

Seems like the Bell Beasts were close to extinction so them not moving around a ton helped with it being stable in a messed up way

Guys by the way, can Sherma ever die in a run?

[muted lantern]

waitwrong reply

[muted lantern]

bell beasts i have heard a theory where they were specially bred from some bugs in wormways as transport by the same ancestors tht were said to be making all the bells that populated by the bellveins, this is an assmption based on the striking similarity of the wormways bugs to bb

[limpid summit]

That’s not a bad theory

[dawn sluice]

i wonder what the main messages of silksong and hollow knight are
for me its about temperance and how excess of a good thing isnt always good

[limpid summit]

We know selective breeding is a thing in Pharloom to a degree that the entire physiology of bugs change (Moorwing)

[silk dirge]

my theory is bell beast was a grom that accidentally made it into the bellways and evolved similar to the bell furms

[sterile jacinth]

Were they bred in the memorium?

[quaint spear]

Okay but they'd have to do that a long time ago for bell eaters to exist

[silk dirge]

yeah something needs to explain bell eater also

[sterile jacinth]

So maybe not?

[muted lantern]

it could also be a crossbreed between a grom an marrowmaw, considering it seems to have the marrowmaws mouth structure

[silk dirge]

maybe

[edgy nebula]

i dont think bellbeast was bred, i think theyre an old near-extinct biological offshoot from the wormways bugs

[quaint spear]

Nah it can happen but evolution takes a long time lol

[silk dirge]

yeah

[muted lantern]

well it seems like there were stations designed specifically for them, so i imagine their existance was intentional

[silk dirge]

bell eater was probably similar

[carmine oak]

hey has anyone noticed that the Hollow Knight description of Weaversong kind of contradicts the story of Silksong?

Silken charm containing a song of farewell, left by the Weavers who departed Hallownest for their old home.

[silk dirge]

it doesnt

some weavers remained in pharloom

others left

[quaint spear]

Some Weavers did go back or remain

[edgy nebula]

well yeah they were clearly tamed, but that doesnt instantly imply it was bred

[silk dirge]

we dont know what happened to the weavers that went back

[quaint spear]

Regardless they all either DIED or fled.

[muted lantern]

they probably got kidnapped

[carmine oak]

To me, this description reads like it implies all Weavers left Hallownest

[muted lantern]

well we know thats false even by just hollow knight

[carmine oak]

Not those weavers that left, but the weavers, which left

[limpid summit]

Main message about SS is a little less cut and dry cause the themes are sort of all around
Main themes of HK are pretty solid as regrets and rest so I guess you could say the message is one of confronting your regrets?

[quaint spear]

That's impossible that contradicts HK itself

[carmine oak]

I think leaving one behind counts as pretty close to all

[limpid summit]

Idk I never really thought about what messages they have more just their themes what do yall think

[carmine oak]

Or was there another weaver I didn’t know about

[edgy nebula]

i like how we know exactly where the location is of where every weaver fled to except for the city of steel

we know where the blackbarrens and sandsea wastes are, but not the city of steel

[quaint spear]

They became labubus is my theory

[muted lantern]

are craws able to speak the same language as other bugs and just dont because they are haunted or is it similar to the skarr where they have their own language we don't know

[sterile jacinth]

They have their own script

[muted lantern]

I love craws lorewise

[edgy nebula]

they prolly just dont try talking to you, they have no reason to

[silk dirge]

suprisingly i got this from a meme but something along the lines of "be yourself and forge a better future for yourself and others"

[muted lantern]

mostly because i like crows'

[quaint spear]

The latter is likely

[leaden gorge]

I’ve got some lore confusion and wondering if yall can help out. From what I’ve seen the main timeline is GMS raises the pharlids into weavers. Tells weavers they are her ‘holy children.’ Later First Sinner discovers the truth, leading to weavers revolting and sealing GMS in a cocoon and taking her place as the rulers. My issue here is this paints the First Sinner as a revolutionary if anything, and if that is the case why is she in sealed in jail? If GMS is the one who ordered her sealed why did the weavers not free her later? I also don’t understand where her imprisonment fits in the timeline. Her cage is quite fancy in construction, which if she was sealed before the weavers took over the citadel I’d imagine it would be more ancient looking. Especially considering the statue in the vaults that hints to an older citadel that was stark and made of simple stone, without excess. Which also brings up its own questions. Was the citadel built before GMS imprisonment? The Mask Maker hints towards the citadel being built to cage GMS which makes me assume its creation was of the weavers, which would then put the first sinner’s imprisonment well after the weavers’ betrayal; indicating the weavers betrayed the GMS for a separate reason then their false nature.

[carmine oak]

we do?

[edgy nebula]

yeah, blackbarrens are next to weavenest cindril, and the sandsea wastes are where wate is

presumably, i dont know what else theyd be

[silk dirge]

gms did not order first sinner to be caged

[carmine oak]

wear wate?

[limpid summit]

That’s not bad

[sterile jacinth]

I think fs imprisonment caused the other weavers to revolt

[muted lantern]

it is funny that hornet has a birdhouse for a fully sapient species on her bellhome, though to be fair they do seem to pay rent

[solar tapir]

its all strange anyways. I knew these tunnels doesn't have logical
explanations, from the moment i saw them first

[limpid summit]

The good ending is all about TK breaking out of the guidelines set for it and accepting itself to go beyond what it could theoretically do

[edgy nebula]

misspelled where, but wate is watcher at the edge

[limpid summit]

Just say watcher 💔

[silk dirge]

undeniable proof

[carmine oak]

ahh

[muted lantern]

seems to be a citadel+weaver effort no?

[silk dirge]

yeah

likely weavers

[muted lantern]

i didn't know that was ever a debate

[sterile jacinth]

I’ve also heard the theory her violence caused the other weavers to imprisoned her

[quaint spear]

She just locked her once she found out the truth, it may have been her ordering her subjects to do it but the message is the same

[silk dirge]

honestly slab seems like its architecture is from when the citadel was made of stone

its architecture and cradle seem very similar

so they are probably early citadel architecture

[quaint spear]

Was the Cradle called that before GMS got locked lmao

[misty stirrup]

Ok so:
Citadel comes after GMS imprisonment , at first it used to be a citadel of stone. Much less gilded, it was still a sham religion with weavers enjoy God benefits. It is most probable that FS is Atla, and was not imprisoned by GMS, we went over this more on the mosscord. We don't really have a good explanation as to why the weavers would imprison FS tho

[sterile jacinth]

I’ve heard the theory that her rage and violent nature was too much for the other weavers

[silk dirge]

fs could maybe be a scapegoat?

[edgy nebula]

karak is so cool but this timeline needs more explanation

[quaint spear]

The architecture on her jail is later-on Citadel though

[carmine oak]

this is interesting because these are so close you can get to them in the game. I wonder if hallownest is just a short stroll over

[leaden gorge]

So if GMS was already bound before the First Sinner was imprisoned then that would mean she was imprisoned under weaver rule, yes?

[silk dirge]

yes

[dawn sluice]

maybe first sinner confronts gms, gms gets angry, fs gets discredited, locked up

[quaint spear]

It's much more likely GMS ordered them to imprison her honestly

[misty stirrup]

I would expect her to be related to apostasy, perhaps the weavers not wanting their nature to be common knowledge?

[quaint spear]

First Sinner finds truth > GMS mad orders peeps to jail her > GMS falls asleep

[misty stirrup]

The cage has runes , cocoon symbolism , the slab comes post citadel , and she was denied absolution by the Citadel. All signs point to her being post gms

[silk dirge]

then why does her cage have the citadel symbol on it

[carmine oak]

why would the weavers lock her up

[carmine oak]

ok but why wasn't she freed
after the revolt

[quaint spear]

Ohhh true

[muted lantern]

she was likely the first to question gms before the others did, and was punished for it, when the weavers realized she was right they feared what she would do if they released her so they just forgot about it

[sterile jacinth]

Why is it always that scam

[edgy nebula]

was it the kai cenat shit again

[dawn sluice]

they listened to gms BEFORE

[limpid summit]

I love kai cenat crypto scam

[muted lantern]

you know it

[silk dirge]

damn i was gonna ping powdered with the message "SNARE THEIR SILK"

too slow 😭

[misty stirrup]

Her dreamnail dialogue says "our Silk our rage"

[carmine oak]

k

[midnight zinc]

“Mods send them to The Slab”

[misty stirrup]

A plural meaning that she had some sort of role in the rebellion

[muted lantern]

why do people fuckin send that scam anyway

[sterile jacinth]

Send their ass to bilewater

[muted lantern]

do people actually fall for that shit

[quaint spear]

Wait guys what if modern day Citadel architecture was made just around the time First Sinner found the truth?

[silk dirge]

youd be surprised

[limpid summit]

FS would have had to have been jailed by the Weavers cause the Citadel didn’t exist before they made it for GMS

[muted lantern]

forgive me for talking like a vivziepop character

[carmine oak]

the slab is a holy place of forgiveness. we don't want to forgive scammers

[midnight zinc]

To the Abyss sea then

[dawn sluice]

absolution denied

[quaint spear]

It's literally jail💀

[unique tangle]

"absolution denied"

[silk dirge]

thats basically citadel propaganda lol

[muted lantern]

send them to the whiteward for a double lobotomy

[edgy nebula]

yeah, send them to prime karak for khann to judge they ass

[carmine oak]

I know lmao

[silk dirge]

its literally just a life sentence

[sterile jacinth]

Nah send their ass to underworks

[misty stirrup]

There is actually only one true pain in the ass timeline wise: Phantom

[limpid summit]

Why? They probably got on her ass for doubting her divinity (and by extension the Weavers’ own) when she found out about their Pharlid origins

[quaint spear]

That's actually really sad

[leaden gorge]

The first sinner was specifically imprisoned for the sin of apostasy, (to turn away from belief) which lines up with the ‘we aren’t children of a god’ which would make sense for her to be locked up by other weavers as they didn’t want to hear that. My issue then is what did the weaver’s rebel against GMS for in the first place?

[quaint spear]

The people that work in the Underworks don't get a dime. It's pretty sad

[silk dirge]

they were slaves to gms

[sterile jacinth]

Underworks or sending scammers to underworks?

[unique tangle]

cause they were treated like shit

[limpid summit]

They rebelled against her for autonomy but likely still fearfully respected her power as their mother

First Sinner was like “no I don’t respect her anymore” which was essentially saying “I don’t respect that we’re gods meant to rule”

[quaint spear]

They'd scam others cause everyone there has low iq

[muted lantern]

so it seems like crests effect hornets personality to an extent, ie beast making her more aggresive, but what about the other crests, we don't really see anything in game but what traits would they bestow?

[sterile jacinth]

Ouch 😭

[silk dirge]

Plea of a Weaver from the furthest edge of Pharloom.

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.

To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

[midnight zinc]

My question is where does it state that the First Sinner was imprisoned as soon as she rebelled? Is it not possible that she was imprisoned only once the weavers began to lose control and GMS began the haunting?

[quaint spear]

Tbh imagine scamming everyone in the Underworks and you're entire bank account is just 40 rosaries💀

[misty stirrup]

GMS created them with worship in mind, she expected to be revered. The Weavers also inherited her dominant nature. So the reasons are:
Wanting to be top dog
Wanting to get out of eternal worship

[sterile jacinth]

That’s a great question

[carmine oak]

another issue is I think
she's in the slab
why is she in the slab?
the slab is an instrument of the citadel, but the citadel was built by the weavers.
so she must've been imprisoned before the revolt, and then the slab was built around her cage and the weavers just didn't free her anyways

[limpid summit]

I think personally Phantom was created post First Sinner

[silk dirge]

id like to believe the scammers on here come from cogwork core

[limpid summit]

When the Weavers had sort of built up the systems of the Citadel more

[muted lantern]

I imagine architect crest would be like taking adderall

[carmine oak]

true they are bots

[limpid summit]

They see this actual different child of GMS and are jealous and send her to the shit organ

[sterile jacinth]

Lmaoooo. Locking the fuck in

[muted lantern]

wanderer maybe would make her more curious?

[quaint spear]

Witch Crest would literally be a boost genetically

[silk dirge]

does hornet have adhd

[sterile jacinth]

It’s like pilgrim soul… could be like… determination?

[muted lantern]

wouldn't surprise me

[quaint spear]

I guess Witch Crest would make her even more 'proper' since it's moveset is very elegant/stylish. ||how could you tell I'm a witch crest main||

[muted lantern]

pale king clearly had something neurodivergent going on

[sterile jacinth]

Witch is also crazy so

[sterile jacinth]

That’s true lmao

[quaint spear]

Waht kind of goofy ass plan is that

[edgy nebula]

witch crest would make hornet eat babies and shit

[leaden gorge]

I could be wrong but I assumed both phantom and lace came post start of haunting, as that seems to be when GMS starts regaining control of the citadel

[quaint spear]

Ah yes I must gain 1 million kids and hope one of them is devoid of emotion to seal the Radiance forever heheeheheu

[misty stirrup]

Lace and Phantom are definitely pre haunting , Lace seems to have silenced the choir

[dawn sluice]

yeah
considering how witch crest basically IS eating a baby and getting stuck with a parasite

[silk dirge]

anyways the conclusion im coming to for bellways is that they were used by the citadel to monitor different areas of pharloom and all the bells come from dead pilgrims

[muted lantern]

it also might make her even colder and more calculated considering its a parasite that was bestowed with no regard for its hosts wellbeing

[silk dirge]

and bell beast is a genetically modified grom

[muted lantern]

reaper crest would make her really into farming

[sterile jacinth]

Bells are definitely a sign of devotion

[silk dirge]

bell eater is probably some sort of creature that got into there and evolved

[midnight zinc]

What does this mean? I don't see how Lace shows signs of existing pre haunting.

[muted lantern]

What eating bells does to a mf

[sinful nimbus]

Well we now know the Ancient Civilization reached similar conclusions about the void and the plan ostensibly worked for a long while so its not really that far divorced from reality tbf

[silk dirge]

what could bell eater possibly be an evolution from is my question

[quaint spear]

That's the problem, I don't think Pharloom could make a bell beast a long time ago for another creature to get there and adapt it takes a long time.

[silk dirge]

maybe a garpid?

[misty stirrup]

The Caretaker says Lace used to kill Pilgrims, that doesn't make much sense post haunting.

[midnight zinc]

The AC just thought Void could cleanse them of their mortal weaknesses, they probably predated the Radiance

[sterile jacinth]

Memorium is new. I think bell beast evolved naturally

[muted lantern]

reminds me of the guys in deepnest, the garepedes

[edgy nebula]

garpid are likely garpede offshoots

also they look nothing alike

[limpid summit]

The haunting started after the Citadel fell silent I think Phantom would have at least been before that because why would GMS send her to the organ post Conductors

Also phantom is very old

Haunting isn’t super old relatively

[silk dirge]

yeah your right

[quaint spear]

Nah the Citadel fell silent because of the Haunting👹👹👹

[muted lantern]

Lace is at least one generation older than the average bug of pharloom

[silk dirge]

then what could bell eater have evolved from

[muted lantern]

probably much older

[midnight zinc]

I assumed that was some sort of rebellion against her mother, like how she freed Hornet and tried to kill her before she reached the Cradle

[muted lantern]

bells, because you are what you eat

[leaden gorge]

You’re right, kinda forgot phantom has a whole job that’s part of the citadel’s function

[edgy nebula]

probably just an offshoot from groms

[misty stirrup]

Phantom makes no sense no matter how you dice it ngl.
If before why was she left alive
If after why is she in the exhaust

[regal crow]

What happened to coral tower after the last guantlet? Spikes filled the room before we went to khann

[quaint spear]

It got torn up

[edgy nebula]

the spikes let up after hornet silk soared presmably

[silk dirge]

i could see it for bell beast but bell eater nah

[edgy nebula]

oh we're talking about bell eater, my bad

[misty stirrup]

Possible, but then ... why would Lace be mad her Mother isn't acknowledging her. Wouldn't she be aware of her unconscious state

[sterile jacinth]

She could have betrayed her mother and worked the exhaust to maintain the song. You find some silk spools by her arena

[regal crow]

Was the tower destroyed? I wouldn’t be surprised, considering what it looks like in present day

[edgy nebula]

bell eater is probably just something that ate groms, evolved to be bigger to eat bellbeasts

[midnight zinc]

I think thats WHY she rebels, no?

[muted lantern]

I can't think of what reaper would change about hornet other than making her a big fan of agriculture

[quaint spear]

No, later you get silk soar it was supposedly restored

[limpid summit]

I mean like I don’t want to act like your guess isn’t completely wrong cause we straight up don’t know

[sterile jacinth]

Must… gather…

[regal crow]

What

[edgy nebula]

reaper makes hornet wear overalls and stick a piece of wheat in her mouth and go hey pardner

[midnight zinc]

Also I think I'm still unsure of where Phantom fits into the timeline, why does it not make sense for her to be a post-haunting creation?

[limpid summit]

The exhaust organ is probably real old though cause cogwork core is super old

[misty stirrup]

Yes, overall underappreciation by her mother and fear of replacement. But if Lace knows her Mother can't exactly give her attention ... her motivation loses sense imo

[edgy nebula]

the tower wasnt destroyed, the upper parts of it are probably blocked off by crust

[quaint spear]

Yep

[sterile jacinth]

I think gms can communicate at least in part

[limpid summit]

She is the one tasked with blasting the dregs out through the organ to Sinner’s Road where they fall down to Greymoor and Greymoor has been collecting dregs for ages

[sterile jacinth]

You do get some of her dialogue with the silk hearts

[limpid summit]

So she’s been up there for a long time at the very least Conductor time

[midnight zinc]

I think its less about motherly attention, its more just GMS has the ability to communicate and control the world through the haunting but largely ignores Lace and doesnt include her in that, she clearly had no part in Hornet's capture

[misty stirrup]

Communicate yes, through silk hearts, but not much else really. And I'm not sure how much shes there during the silk hearts

[quaint spear]

Dawg it's not GMS' fault she's asleep how tf can she even give Lace attention

[midnight zinc]

Right, since the weavers were in control, yes?

[regal crow]

What’s crust? Is that the coral?

[sterile jacinth]

She communicates through the silk hearts to Hornet so I imagine she has a way to speak to lace

[edgy nebula]

yes

[silk dirge]

so i think my final take is going to be bell beasts were bred for citadel transportation bell eater is a creature that got in and fed on bell beasts

[edgy nebula]

both coral and crust are used to refer to the coral

[misty stirrup]

During the first silk heart she sounds maternal to Hornet, yet strangely she doesn't welcome us with cookies

[quaint spear]

Maybe she's just focusing more on actually getting out and trying to take Hornet

[midnight zinc]

She's literally able to give complex orders to bugs she controls with the Haunting, like "capture the half weaver in Hallownest, use a cage with a binding on it". She'd definitely be able to communicate with lace if she wanted to somehow

[limpid summit]

I think so yeah

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah true

[edgy nebula]

im not a fan of gms, she isnt very characterized

[misty stirrup]

The Conductors started the capture orders tho, they're sent via Choral Commandment

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah she’s paying more attention to Hornet than her own daughter. That would cause some resentment

[quaint spear]

That would require a ton of years though

[midnight zinc]

So if they were still collecting silk pre haunting, where was all that silk coming from?

[silk dirge]

what else makes sense then

[quaint spear]

If she doesn't she quite literally could die😭

[limpid summit]

So then she’s either GMS time or Weavers (GMS in her sleep) time
I want to believe it’s the former but then it doesn’t make sense that only FS rebelled if all the Weavers were privy to GMS’s replacement kid right before their eyes

[midnight zinc]

Yes, and who told the conductors to do that?

[misty stirrup]

Her and Lace have quite little screentime for the 2nd and 3rd main chars of the story

[sterile jacinth]

lol yeah. Also she’s like the only real relationship lace has

[misty stirrup]

They themselves? The Conductors are their own leaders. They're the head honchos

[limpid summit]

Everywhere the air the water

[edgy nebula]

gms kinda just feels like a plot device and caricature of motherhood to me

[silk dirge]

like i was writing a whole arc for bell beast and got stuck on this issue

[limpid summit]

The Weavers’ songs helped GMS stretch her silk far even before Whiteward began tearing it out of bugs

[quaint spear]

Bell Beast was just a native and it's related to the wormways peeps and evolved, around this time Bell Eater had to adapt too

[midnight zinc]

Tbf neither is the Radiance, they're both background influencers that drive the world and plot not complex characters

[sterile jacinth]

Also gms cocoon

[edgy nebula]

much less character than pk

[limpid summit]

True

[midnight zinc]

yeah where is it coming from? Silk just naturally grows in the air without influence from the weavers or GMS?

[misty stirrup]

She's supposed to be a pretty complex and tragic character imo , she's heavily misread as pure evil

[edgy nebula]

fair, id say she has more character than gms though

[limpid summit]

It’s all GMS

It’s like how soul was naturally in the air in HK (it is still)

She sheds idk

[quaint spear]

You forgot GMS created Silk, it's seen as this magical or revolutionary construct

[misty stirrup]

They're harvesting GMS cocoons and I presume that's why they sent out capture orders for weavers

[sterile jacinth]

A lot of it is subtext and pretty vague. Just like everything else in this game she’s deeply flawed and tragic but you might not pick up on that if you just play casually

[quaint spear]

Her influence also made it literally be everywhere

[silk dirge]

the weaver order captures are gms

[limpid summit]

Well the capture order from Hornet was GMS

[leaden gorge]

The conductors put out the orders to capture weaver beings for silk generation. After the main weavers died out they still neeeded silk for everything the citadel runs on, and mainly for their eternal life experiments.

[silk dirge]

its something along the lines of bugs still performing tasks after being haunted

[edgy nebula]

uh oh, powdered water's lurking

[limpid summit]

The other Weaver capture orders might have been too

They didn’t need the Weavers to generate Silk it was everywhere

GMS was who needed them

Cause the dregs weren’t going to sustain lace

[misty stirrup]

I don't think so, it had to be someone with access to the cradle, which is behind the Cog Dancers and 3 fold melody, so the Chommandement is either Lace Widow or Conductors

[sterile jacinth]

Could have been at the point where the Conductors really lost influence

[midnight zinc]

Yeah, so when she was imprisoned and the haunting hadnt started, her influence on the world was still felt? Seems odd that she could be imprisoned successfully even temporarily if her influence was that huge

[leaden gorge]

Silk was everywhere but it was being constantly reused. You don’t go through all the efforts to collect silk from the burned remains of you don’t have a silk shortage

[silk dirge]

i think gms had ways of getting them to the cradle

[quaint spear]

It isn't far off to say that later the Haunting GMS just naturally supplied the Citadel with Silk in general since It was like everywhere.

[limpid summit]

I mean Rad was imprisoned and she controls thousands of bugs on a whim

[edgy nebula]

silk being in the water in pharloom is crazy

[limpid summit]

There’s precedent for that

[silk dirge]

microplastics fr

[misty stirrup]

How? The cages would need to get past the Cog Dancers

[sterile jacinth]

Conductors injecting bugs with silk certainly didn’t help

[limpid summit]

GMS is also physical and we beat her up

[silk dirge]

you dont think gms cant control cog dancers

[quaint spear]

Song magic wins, GMS is also physical lmao

[sterile jacinth]

I doubt they’d attack bugs that are meant to be there

[edgy nebula]

powderedwater got pissed at us last time we brought this up he'll probably kill you now

[leaden gorge]

I think the GMS just hijacked the conductors silk plans once she started waking up as she needed power, but the conductors needed silk beforehand anyway

[misty stirrup]

The dancers aren't haunted if I remember correctly

[silk dirge]

conductors were harvesting silk off of gms

[misty stirrup]

You also need the 3fold melody to ascend

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah they did. They did it to make the citadel bugs immortal

[vestal swan]

Mutates and gaslights bugs as her kids
Makes a pure silk kid instead
Abandos that one for whatever reason
Replaced her with an eternal child
Eats her weavers to regain strength
Nah u right misunderstand

[misty stirrup]

This is my interpretation too

[limpid summit]

That sounds about right

[silk dirge]

aita for ensnaring an entire kingdom

[limpid summit]

The experiments let GMS kickstart the Haunting

[midnight zinc]

At least the Radiance seemed to be fighting to not be forgotten and fade from existence, GMS was just awful from the jump

[quaint spear]

She's basically a tyranical ruler but still has a heart for her kid despite lots of neglect towards anything else

[silk dirge]

anyways this is what i had before i got stuck on bellway lore

[edgy nebula]

i dont get why gms chose to save lace or hornet, she left her other kid to live forever in a role she never wanted to play and made another just because

[midnight zinc]

They give silk

[vestal swan]

Rad didn't need to keep going

[misty stirrup]

GMS didn't kill the weavers, she's only interested in Hornet for that. We don't know about her relationship with Phantom to make presumptions

[sterile jacinth]

She wanted to be a mother and unfortunately she’s a petty terrible and controlling person so she’s never able to keep that connection

[vestal swan]

She made those kids to abuse them so...

[quaint spear]

??? Wdym

[edgy nebula]

if phantom didnt live up to expectations just remake her, it's YOUR silk

[quaint spear]

Not really😭 well for Phantom yeah and the Weavers were just servants lmao

[midnight zinc]

She didnt, but she was not initially awful, the moths just backdoored their own god for shitty reasons

[sterile jacinth]

That’s what lace is

[quaint spear]

Oh look Pale King brought lots of stuff, sorry Radiance someone else is the diva now👹

[edgy nebula]

i mean literally remake her, re-weave her silk into a better child, dont let her live on if she's a failure

presumably gms can do that, atleast id hope so

[misty stirrup]

She's asleep.

[sterile jacinth]

Don’t think phantom would go down easily

[vestal swan]

Yeah I'm saying GMS is worse than rad, GMS got betrayed bc she was evil, rad got betrayed by petty losers

[quaint spear]

Why did Radiance keep going anyway if she had enough believers and whatever with the infection already

Was it just out of revenge lmao

[solar tapir]

did the weavers constructed the architects?

[edgy nebula]

i dont really like discussing gms anyway, not lace, hornet, or her are very interesting imo

[vestal swan]

Unending crash out/she was still sealed

[midnight zinc]

I'm so desperete to see how exactly the PK founded his kingdom, and what he was like to bugs of the area, because we only catch little glimpses of him when he was alive in memories

[quaint spear]

So sad, Diva could not get her chill pill

[leaden gorge]

I believe so.

[sterile jacinth]

Idk why they would need them. I think it was more likely the conductors

[misty stirrup]

The Architecs are deffo weavers as per 12th architect dialogue

[craggy smelt]

architects are living machines, like more complex versions of the servitors

[edgy nebula]

i believe the conductors made the architects, silkflies are a conductor discovery and they power every robot

[quaint spear]

Yeah or they got the Conductors to make them but the Weavers told them to put a primary directive to obey Weavers fully

[limpid summit]

Conductors probably built the architects

[midnight zinc]

Which line?

[limpid summit]

Anything in the citadel that was gilded is likely not Weavers

[edgy nebula]

why are you crust king yak

[misty stirrup]

She says they were built to serve weavers (first children)

[limpid summit]

Slab still has that gold sheen but it’s very drab so we know it’s Weaver made

[quaint spear]

Yeah

[midnight zinc]

Yeah they were built by them, I thought you meant they literally were weavers

[misty stirrup]

Ah no lmao I was responding to an earlier comment

[edgy nebula]

i think we should talk about karak because i prefer it over the citadel

[quaint spear]

The Citadel eats

[sterile jacinth]

I couldn’t tell

[solar tapir]

For maintance or song, obviosly

[solar tapir]

But i agree with that

[quaint spear]

They're such a nice place because it's really nice destroying 5 nations😌

[edgy nebula]

eats silk and then gets haunted maybe

[sterile jacinth]

That could make sense. But wha would they build? The citadel the weavers built was drab and made of stone and I don’t think they really require an architect of that complexity

[midnight zinc]

"Then on your r-r-request, Bug-Red, as directive demands, for Pharloom's first children, a-a-a-and our kingdom-eternal, I shall c-c-craft."

[sterile jacinth]

Weavers were revered as gods at first

[edgy nebula]

the silk haunting is such a menacing force from the one tablet we get in the marrow, i wish it was utilized in a different way than what we got in hk

[quaint spear]

The Architects literally kept songs going. That's what you see in the Architects' Melody

[sterile jacinth]

Not anymore. Maybe the architects just had their programming they had at first

[solar tapir]

Yea i already agreed that the condusctors build them

[sterile jacinth]

Conductors also kept up the song and could have built them to maintain it

[carmine oak]

is steel soul content canon
(hk and sk)

[edgy nebula]

"in the air"
"in the water"
"in their guts"

[vestal swan]

Yeah, it's like another timeline, just like all the endings

[midnight zinc]

I mean we see this is Whiteward

[edgy nebula]

no this is marrow

oh nevermind

[quaint spear]

Nah it's Shellwood

[solar tapir]

By the way, how do we know that the weavers' citadel was made of stone? I miss something

[silk dirge]

pious isamor

[edgy nebula]

nah, it's pharloom bay

[silk dirge]

nah its the gloom

[sterile jacinth]

A statute you can find in a hidden place in the vaults has some needolin dialogue. I think it’s called Pius Isthmus?

[solar tapir]

Yea i really miss that

[quaint spear]

The Slab is old and pre-Citadel on Weaver rule, therefore we assuming everything the Weavers built around that time was made of stone, this also has a few other sources aka Pius

[edgy nebula]

but the entire tablet implies that silk is literally everywhere and has been merged into life because of the citadel so far that it is wrapped around organs, really scary until you remember oh, it's just gms

[midnight zinc]

"Hark! ...ilgrim! You... climb... our eternal embrace... who stand stru... the threshold... our stark Citadel of stone... kno... true service may now commence."

Relevant dialogue

[solar tapir]

Need to remind myself to needolin mmm everything

[craggy smelt]

For the river long...
For the yak born strong...

[midnight zinc]

Nah its not needolin, just a hidden statue that talks

[leaden gorge]

I think the weaver’s lasted in the citadel still into its gilded age. They created the conductors to be the governing body, and leaders of religion and song. The vault keepers are the ones that make sure all is being followed in accordance to the teachings (a checks and balances to make sure the conductors stayed true) and the architects to manage the infrastructure of the citadel.

[edgy nebula]

the tablet and greyroot both give off that creepy aura that isnt really anywhere ingame and it's sad

[misty stirrup]

The Haunting seems to be misunderstood:
It appears to be an unconscious effort driven by her nature (haunted enemies attack you despite GMS wanting you to get to the Cradle) , and the flies send you to the slab instead of the cradle
It appears to be a Siren Song (Ants mistake it for Karmelita's song) and is apparently caused by not being devout enough or too devout? As per Ben and Carl. It seems to be somewhat voluntary? As Ballador doesn't succumb to it despite being pure silk. Widows haunting does appear to be different and more forceful compared to the usual one. (This is a metaphor for religious zealoutry)

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think it was the weavers who guilded the citadel. I think it was the conductors

[solar tapir]

Oh okay

[midnight zinc]

There's also this: "See... Citadel's simple stone, bare an... dorned. See h...ain our garb, how sparse o... meal. Know that... excess is sin!" Makes me think that something big changed for the citadel bugs to stop valuing pioty and to expand the citadel into a gilded structure

[silk dirge]

i mean i would guess the slab is a temporary stop until they take her to the cradle

[edgy nebula]

"In the air. The water. Everywhere.
Inside their shells. Twisted inside. Guts.
Tightest around heart. Pulsing rhythm.
Sick. Alive. Dead?
Something worse.
Deeper. Must look deeper."

got the full tablet, it's some creepy stuff!

[dry bridge]

Hornet does say to grindle that she things the slab bugs want to offer her to the monarch (gms)

[leaden gorge]

Not in its entirety, but first sinner is locked in a gilded cage so there was at least one weaver alive during the gilded age, and I doubt the conductors locked up the weaver so she was probably locked up by another weaver.

[solar tapir]

wonder where they get that much gold

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I’m not sure about fs. I still don’t think the guilded citadel was the weavers tho

[misty stirrup]

Sins were a thing during Weaver era too, and if FS is first of the first it'd make sense for her to be imprisoned by weavers

[solar tapir]

I thought it was brass at first

[misty stirrup]

It's stone then gilded

[solar tapir]

now not sure

[sterile jacinth]

That’s fair

[midnight zinc]

Actually now that I think about it, the statue is literally partially destroyed/uprooted, meaning the citadel bugs intellionally vandalized the statue reminding them to be pious, likely as the citadel was being expanded. So was this after the weavers started to be driven out and hunted and the conductors gained more control? They're big and fat and seem indulgant, so itd make sense, but maybe the weavers got so prideful after they contained a god that they felt the need to bask in their wealth? Im not sure

[sterile jacinth]

It’s guilded now due to the conductors greed

[leaden gorge]

I think the weavers overlapped with the beginning of the gilded age but once they died out the conductors went overboard. It’s still a work in theory though, this timeline shit is hard

[silk dirge]

the conductors never hunted weavers

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah maybe

[silk dirge]

all weaver hunting is gms

[sterile jacinth]

I think that started due to the conductors loosing control of the citadel bugs to gms

[silk dirge]

yeah

[misty stirrup]

Who sent out the Choral Commandments for that then

[sterile jacinth]

Other citadel bugs who were haunted

[misty stirrup]

They're older than the Cog core commandent

[silk dirge]

citadel bugs resorting to the tasks they did before being haunted

[misty stirrup]

They're older than the Cog core commandent

[midnight zinc]

yeah so it was likely them that destroyed the statue. Interesting that the general sentiment of the statue is still relayed to pilgrims earlier on the treck up the citadel before the last judge, but once you get to the citadel they're gilded out (or taken to the whiteward and turned into gleamflies)

[silk dirge]

its like theyre haunted but they are still carrying out their pre haunting tasks

[sterile jacinth]

Or sent to work in the underworks

[silk dirge]

this is something the infection did as well

[misty stirrup]

Yes but the commandment in question is described as worn , which would mean old, and appears to be older than the last edict of the Conductors

[midnight zinc]

Are those pilgrims? I assumed there was a difference between the workers like the pin wielders and the laborers in the Underworks and the gilded well dressed pilgrims just wandering around

[sterile jacinth]

They were trekking for awhile to grab Hornet I’d guess

[sterile jacinth]

Nah those were pilgrims who have to work to ascend

[silk dirge]

its described as dirty and worn which could probably just be aftereffects of the fall

[sterile jacinth]

The underscrubs behave the same way as the pilgrims who lunge at you

[midnight zinc]

I love the Underloft journal entry, Hornet is getting some class consciousness: "The cost of so much grandeur... Did I peer closely enough into the foundations of my own kingdom?"

[solar tapir]

interesting thoughts, actually. Need to find that statue myself on next playthrough

[sterile jacinth]

Character development good job Hornet

[midnight zinc]

Slab flies journal entries:

[sterile jacinth]

Ah back to the racism debate wonderful

[midnight zinc]

I'm kidding lmao

I'm not Star

[misty stirrup]

Imo this doesn't offer a good explanation as to how the cages got to the cradle considering the 3fold melody is required

[silk dirge]

bro yesterday someone pulled out the fucking un genocide convention 😭

[sterile jacinth]

Thank god

[sterile jacinth]

Ough

[misty stirrup]

Geneva convention when

[midnight zinc]

This does remind me though, I saw a video about the citadel being a metaphor for capitalism or whatever, gotta say, I do not agree

[silk dirge]

i mean conductors dont know the threefold melody either

[dawn sluice]

wonderful!
my kin arrive and the time has come.

[silk dirge]

they only know their part of the melody

[misty stirrup]

Well yes but they would have a way of getting said melody

[dawn sluice]

"architect, vaultkeeper, wake up we gotta transport some cages"

[silk dirge]

i dont think the pontiff was giving the vaultkeepers melody to anyone

also no conductor was ever making it to the top of cogwork core

[misty stirrup]

And besides we don't know if the melody was there pre haunting

[silk dirge]

the melody was always there

[misty stirrup]

Was it set up as a unachievable goal for pilgrims?

[silk dirge]

it was there since the citadels gilded age began probably

[spark valve]

the way hornet gets the melodies is not necessarily how pilgrims did back when the pilgrimage was being completed

[silk dirge]

yes

[spark valve]

no

[silk dirge]

thats my take atleast

[sterile jacinth]

That makes sense

[silk dirge]

wait so how would they get it

[sterile jacinth]

Lace is very agile in sure she’s found a way in. Especially since she literally lives there

[silk dirge]

im assuming pilgrims werent fighting hhg to get to conductors

[spark valve]

from representatives of the factions

[misty stirrup]

The Architecs melody is recently moved there, as the chorus there is the artifical chrous needed to keep gms asleep forever

[spark valve]

they wouldn't have to fight hhg before the haunting

[dawn sluice]

how many control freak epidemics are in hollow knight
we have the infection, the haunting, lifeblood, maybe something else

[silk dirge]

is this stated anywhere

im kinda curious now

[misty stirrup]

Also there are other paths besides the one we see in game. Sherma didn't Parkour Blasted steps

[sterile jacinth]

Higher beings 😔

[dawn sluice]

unless...?

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah we’re playing a 3d world in a 2d perspective I’m sure it’s way different in universe lol

[midnight zinc]

Greyroot kinda, void kinda

[midnight zinc]

Source?

[silk dirge]

i always thought threefold melody was a scheme by the weavers that was never achievable by pilgrims that a future weaver descendant would have to pass and then they would be ready to take on gms or smth like that

[dawn sluice]

what should we call these control freak epidemics

[leaden gorge]

You run I to Sherma at the blasted steps, so I think he went that way my bad, I think you meant like it’s just a 2d game/perspective deal

[spark valve]

that isn't the case citadel members were able to get up to cradle to bring the cages which means they knew the melody

[silk dirge]

im basing it off of this mainly

[misty stirrup]

I do not remember ngl, it's a 2d game but you can still see the background stuff

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I’m sure it looks different in universe lol

[silk dirge]

but yeah you are probably correct

[spark valve]

hornet has to get stuff in ways that weren't intended because the citadel is silent and most of its members are haunted

[silk dirge]

my question is then how did they get past cogwork dancers and lace

[spark valve]

they wouldn't have to

[dawn sluice]

and most helpful things that arent haunted have become really old

[spark valve]

hornet is an enemy to the citadel
pilgrims would not have had to face all the security measures pre-haunting

[misty stirrup]

Lace and Widow could presumably get around the elevator

Pilgrims not so much

[sterile jacinth]

Dancers I’d bet are guards for outsiders and I don’t think they’d attack someone who’s meant to be there

[silk dirge]

oh so like the elevator would just pop up

yeah i could see that

[spark valve]

they would learn the melodies, sing it, and the elevator would come

[silk dirge]

my main question is lace tho if she hates her mother so much why didnt she rescue other weaver descendants

[misty stirrup]

Nobody is ever seeing the cradle, it's an unrealistic goal

[edgy nebula]

i wonder what the significance of this is

greyroot's true form type shit

[sterile jacinth]

I bet it’s been building up so it took a bit for lace to actually resent her enough to rebel

[leaden gorge]

It’s a shortcut later on, I forget where too

[silk dirge]

that could make sense

[edgy nebula]

it goes from the chapel of the witch to the marrow, but it looks really weird

[dawn sluice]

maybe they just didnt have the skill or strength that hornet did and died along the way?

[silk dirge]

or alternatively based off how one of the weaver descendants was "mortally wounded" they possible died in the cage and gms bound them anyway

most of the shit hornet binds is dead

so gms would be able to bind a dead weaver no issue

[misty stirrup]

If gms bound stuff she'd be out of the cocoon

[silk dirge]

then what happened to the weavers in the cradle

[misty stirrup]

I dunno, staked to service is either- how they found them in the steel city

Or B - they harvested their silk

[dawn sluice]

how many kingdoms do we know about?

[silk dirge]

yeah thats what that lore tablet says

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think that has to be the case. Gms is a god

[silk dirge]

only that specific one says that

the others say different things

i think gms just absorbed them

[misty stirrup]

She's desperate to wake, the one time we'd see her binding (cut ending) she's awake

[silk dirge]

yeah but thats a cut ending lol

that is not canon

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’d be hard to bind Hornet while she’s actively kicking and screaming lol

[misty stirrup]

Otherwise we have 0 instances of her binding anything

[vestal swan]

Hollownest
Pharloom
Lands serene
City of steel
Blackbareens*
Sanders wastes* (probably just wastes)
Land of storms
Multiple unknown origins for travelers such as Tiso or Zote

Some of these could overlap but unlikely

[midnight zinc]

Which dialogue mentions the Blacksand wastes?

[silk dirge]

shakra is just a village outside pharloom we dont see

[vestal swan]

One of the Weaver locations I think, I might be misremembering the name it's something like black sand

[sterile jacinth]

Lore tablet in the cradle

Blacksand sea?

[silk dirge]

it probably doesnt count as a separate kingdom

[vestal swan]

She's from a village but it doesn't mean it's just a village

[silk dirge]

i mean its just outside pharloom

i dont think theres room for a whole ass kingdom there

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I just interpreted those as one of the wastelands between kingdoms

[misty stirrup]

There's villages around Pharloom , that's where pilgrims come from

[vestal swan]

Do we have confirmation that it's actually nearby?

[silk dirge]

i mean her journal entry says its part of pharloom

[vestal swan]

Huh

Why are there so many things on the edge of the kingdom we're not allowed to explore

[silk dirge]

dlc :3

[misty stirrup]

Surface dlc

(Probably not)

[sterile jacinth]

I’d like to see but they are probably just little villages. I’d love to meet more of Shakras tribe

[midnight zinc]

"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, frail with age.
Tracked and taken in Sandsea Waste.
Seven Choristors, nine Envoys lost to task."

[craggy smelt]

It's 'Sandsea Wastes' and 'Blackbarrens,' two areas mentioned in the Cradle
sandsea wastes probably refers to the wastelands between kingdoms

[midnight zinc]

"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, mortally wounded.
Tracked and taken in the Blackbarrens.
Four Choristors, one Reed lost to task."

[dawn sluice]

city of steel?

[craggy smelt]

Blackbarrens, well, that's clearly Blackwyrm territory

[dawn sluice]

maybe for a battle

[craggy smelt]

its in the name you see

[dawn sluice]

a battle of the blackwyrm

[midnight zinc]

@vestal swan You mean this one?

Blackbarrens, yeah that sounds fucking badass ngl

[vestal swan]

Yeah I accidentally combined two names lol

[midnight zinc]

Yeah

[vestal swan]

So we know of roughly possibly six distinct kingdoms, with others just not being named

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s kinda funny that hallownest claimed to be the only kingdom. I wonder if they started out that way or if they didn’t know of other kingdoms or they just fuckin lied

[midnight zinc]

What doesnt make sense to me is the theory that the "city of steel" is the territory of the steel masters, because apparently an envoy of citadel bugs just rolled in and kidnapped a weaver that was hiding there, idk how thatd be allowed by a group as seemingly powerful as the steel masters

[craggy smelt]

well, it says 'beneath' the city

[midnight zinc]

It was an intentional lie

[craggy smelt]

maybe not the city proper

[sterile jacinth]

Cool that’s what I thought

I wonder why? Did pk not want his subjects to wander off?

[vestal swan]

Flying mechanical city
"Beneath the city of steel"

[midnight zinc]

Laputa?

[vestal swan]

Yes because we need more anime references

[craggy smelt]

walking city on steel legs
"Howl's Moving Castle"

[edgy nebula]

i didnt realize it said beneath, thats cool

[edgy nebula]

honestly i do think making it a moving kingdom would be great

[midnight zinc]

I am utterly fascinated with steel seer Zi though, because she tells us way more about her masters than Jinn did

[vestal swan]

Steeleyrm = homespear
Growmetal = steel wyrmflakes
Masters = captain

Jinn might have been doing her job better and not telling us what her job was
But that can also be because she recognized TK had void

[foggy fractal]

what do we think the steel masters are gonna look like
if we ever get to see them

[vestal swan]

Cyborgs

[craggy smelt]

probably pretty steely

[edgy nebula]

theyre either gonna be void or really intricate constructs i think

hoping not void cause thatd suck

[midnight zinc]

I thought they were void or combined with void in some way prior to Silksong, but now I'm almost certain they arent

[craggy smelt]

I wonder if the Steel Clan will be more mechnical like the Pharloom constructs, or more... how do I put this.
Like living metal? Liquid metal taking forms?
More magical and less technological

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe a mix of magic and tech

[dawn sluice]

considering the talk of how the pale king created the entire world
im leaning toward lies

[foggy fractal]

hey since we're on this topic
am I allowed to post my steel master fake screenshot in art gallery
given that they are already mentioned in hollow knight I think it'll be fine right

[vestal swan]

Zi says she was grown from metal so liquid Terminator is on the table

[edgy nebula]

hornet goes to the city of steel and gets poisoned by mercury

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. I wonder if he just didn’t want to loose worshippers (his pale side is coming through)

[foggy fractal]

idk the spoiler rules anywhere else because I don't chat anywhere else besides this channel 😭

[vestal swan]

If it's something you actually made and it's not like a $2 Photoshop edit yeah

I don't think the gallery actually has a spoiler rule right now but some people have just been spoiler tagging

[midnight zinc]

Like this has insane implications: "Pale It... You would reject the role? Are you not tamed, bound, by Masters?... You would know... obedience is essential.
Recall, the fate of those who defy... Even you higher... Especially you higher...
...Compression... We have suffered it. We would never wish it upon another."

[dawn sluice]

pale kings lies more for better purposes
gms is selfish but their lies are just kinda "you're my children"

[craggy smelt]

they police use of Void and can threaten Pale beings...
arbitrators between light and darkness! Pale White, Void Black, Steel Grey~!

[sterile jacinth]

“Pls don’t leave I can’t keep you safe :(“
“if you leave I’m going to fucking kill you”
/j

[foggy fractal]

the only things I didn't make was hornet and the ui
I also took some particles from silksong's assets but that's about it

[edgy nebula]

the thing that makes pk a good character is hes layered, he cares about what he did and hes very shameful of it, hiding away in his castle until he withers away

does gms feel shame? uuuuuh

[foggy fractal]

gotcha

[midnight zinc]

Yeah the fact that its implied they can punish even higher beings, but also whatever "compression" means, does it mean Zi was a normal bug that got punished by being turned into whatever she is? She says she's on an eternal vigil.

[dawn sluice]

ah i was worried you were going to straight up murder me if i left the server, good thing that /j is there

[silk dirge]

woah woah woah wtf is this

this is cut content ive never heard of before

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah woo would have been bad lol