sk-lore

[golden olive]

thats justified

[ancient sinew]

Also “if you ignore journal” yeah let’s just ignore most of her characterization

[vestal swan]

Crows are not nice to other injured crows though, him surviving is a very low possibility if crow behavior was taken into account

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah so what's the point

[ancient sinew]

Not if it’s on the shelf

[edgy nebula]

menderbug doesnt spurt orange liquid, he emits vaguely orange gas when he dies but his hit effect isnt infected at all

[dark rune]

i just realized doing hornet radiant kind of breaks the idea of silk spear and threadstorm costing silk

[lavish tangle]

They are intelligent enough to write a journal, everything else that is infected isn’t even smart enough to talk

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet goes to a memory repeats what she already knows and gets the macguffin hooooray.

[ancient sinew]

She has literally no reason to kill Karm if she already has the other three hearts and in doing so she willingly destroys an entire ecosystem

[muted lantern]

didn't really feel like the intent imo, it was to show the player how hornets changed and where she comes from, and the beliefs instilled that made her make the choices that lead to act 3

[silk dirge]

and we are back to cut memento achievement icon = mystery icon theory

[vestal swan]

Who TF is Karm

[golden olive]

i mean what like it's her property now let her display her uhhh victories

[edgy nebula]

karmelita

[dark rune]

karmelita

[lavish tangle]

Skarr singer karmelita

[vestal swan]

Oh,

[gentle aspen]

You realize he could have just written the journal pre infection

and regardless moss prophet is cognizant enough to spout gospel about the radiance this again isn’t a point

[sinful nimbus]

But we already know she wants to change the world for the better that's... what she did in HK

[spark valve]

the victory being the unnecessary slaughter of an old woman

[ancient sinew]

The issue is killing Karm

[vestal swan]

I keep spelling her name with a C in my head

[edgy nebula]

i dont like people calling her karm cause i keep getting it mixed up with khann and it pisses me off

[unique tangle]

but even if they werent nice to each other they wouldnt have done anything to his corpse then

[muted lantern]

not what I was referring to

[golden olive]

also why are we judging hornet for her journal like its her journal guys we shouldn't be reading it in the first place

[lavish tangle]

He straight up mentions you destroying that one sign over and over

[lapis creek]

i wish they had some dialogue about how karmelita wanted to die with a little dignity

[sinful nimbus]

But that's the point of red memory

[lapis creek]

or something. literally anything

[ancient sinew]

You’re understating it it’s not rhe murder of an old woman it’s the willful and unnecessary destruction of an entire ecosystem

[unique tangle]

but that would contradict with how much of an asshole hornet is tho

[golden olive]

naw ur right im trolling 💀

[lapis creek]

TRUE

[limpid summit]

Good bait…

[lavish tangle]

Lore dump to player and canonization of daughter of three queens

[limpid summit]

The latter is dumb

They had reasons to cut it Vespa is a bum

[lavish tangle]

I misread that’s as what’s sorry

[sinful nimbus]

So its meaningless exposition

[limpid summit]

The switchup is crazy

[lavish tangle]

Nah man I love daughter of three queens

[muted lantern]

not really, it was about the three mothers wanting her to choose her own path in life, not be bound to take on a role pushed upon her, whether it was executed well is up to your own view but i don't really think thats what it was about.

[silk dirge]

hornet realizing pk doesnt hate her in red memory wouldve cooked

[vestal swan]

I don't follow

[sinful nimbus]

Why is there an unskippable 6 minute cutscene to canonize 3 queens 🙏

[lapis creek]

i might have actually liked the vespa reveal in red memory if i didnt have days to think about it between hivesteel needle and silk/soul quest

[edgy nebula]

skong's plot sucks lets talk about miscellaneous npc lore instead

[vestal swan]

And make each interaction worse than the last

[spark valve]

it's also just bad for the pacing of the sequence

[ancient sinew]

Also “if you ignore journal Hornet is a good person” is very funny because in addition to not being true it’s basically saying “if you ignore 90% of her characterization Hornet’s not that bad guys!”

[silk dirge]

we will discuss mystery icon and you will believe it

[unique tangle]

im just saying if the craws werent nice to each other that wouldnt really mean theyd like take his corpse away, theyd just leave it there

[golden olive]

i dont see how its unnecessary if she needed the heart to stop all the act 3 BS from destroying pharloom. did she legit just not need her heart

[gentle aspen]

so?

[spark valve]

She didn’t

[vestal swan]

Oh right, yeah that makes sense I had a brain fart

[lavish tangle]

It also shows the theme of the game, good mothers make better kids, bad mothers (gms) makes kids who hate them so much they want them killed

[lapis creek]

hornet and lace are both very static which is weird because the game is supposed to be about them

[golden olive]

WWWWWTF :SOB:

[sinful nimbus]

You can kill Green Prince instead and later kill her

[unique tangle]

vespa after saying that she cut off all contact between the hive and hallownest:

[gentle aspen]

it’s not necessary because there are three other sources of it

[sinful nimbus]

This is true yes but like I said its just.... pointless exposition

[golden olive]

dont u need all 3 tho

[lavish tangle]

Smart enough to write moment before you kill him and you think he’s infected?

[gentle aspen]

and she literally has dialogue saying “yeah I did it to test my strength or something”

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't shed any new light on her character

[spark valve]

You only need 3 of 4 hearts killing karm or green prince as the fourth is dumb

[muted lantern]

its an advertisment for having multiple moms clearly

[ancient sinew]

Gilly asks her why she did it and she literally goes “uh I needed to test my skills lmao” it’s… comically bad writing

[gentle aspen]

you are the one who claims “oh infected can’t speak” when they literally can

[golden olive]

hollup wait how many hearts are there

[gentle aspen]

Four

[spark valve]

This giant, old ant... Her death seems recent, but her presence here...
Was it her? Could it be? The strength that sustained these caves? If so, what will happen now?
Hornet: They will wither and fade... And you may sadly know it was my needle that brought her end.
You, miss? But why? Why destroy something so vital?
Hornet: It is a difficult thing to explain simply... A test was needed, to ensure my strength before a greater challenge soon to come.

[gentle aspen]

They can speak
they can probably write

[golden olive]

lmfao hornet what r u doiiiiing

[vestal swan]

4th heart not having a spare option no matter which one it is, besides just not doing the boss fight is dumb. I didn't realize I was about to kill the green prince in his memory, it does not do a good job of telling you what the fuck is going on there if you run into him first

[lavish tangle]

Example other than the one prophet guy he is an exception because the radiance was having fun

[ancient sinew]

“why’d you kill her” ”idk because I could”

[unique tangle]

i will say that the weaver and herrah scene is necessary exposition; the other 2 are there for hype and aura

[muted lantern]

i mean I don't agree, but at that point its personal preference, i found the moment fairly potent for what it was. I won't deny it's fanservicy but thats not something that bothers me

[muted lantern]

"I hate old people" -hornet

[gentle aspen]

holy hell you cannot ignore examples to the contrary and make up nonsense to explain it

[raven condor]

Alright people, lore wise who is on parr combat wise with lost lace? (Aside from hornet or the knight)

[sinful nimbus]

The weavers and herrah scenes are cool and awesome and I wanted them to flesh it out more

[vestal swan]

The exposition would be good if it wasn't a bad retcon

[edgy nebula]

"A test was needed..." hornet says, lying through her teeth because she doesnt wanna go through the gilly bossfight

[gentle aspen]

the weaver scene is literally just more weaver racism that shit was not necessary

[lapis creek]

they shouldve made nyleth not an old heart and had green prince be mandatory

[unique tangle]

no but that would mean less nostalgia bait....

[spark valve]

Gilly should’ve killed her then and there, rendered harsh judgement

[muted lantern]

honestly the issue with characterization could have easily been solved if green prince wasn't a heart and didn't from the battle.

[gentle aspen]

“Prove yourself more weaver than wyrm”

[silk dirge]

what would you think of a pk scene

[sinful nimbus]

Its contrasting the weavers' expectations forced onto Hornet with Herrah telling Hornet "Nah girl be yourself and do whatever you want ily ❤️‍🩹 "

Which is fine

[unique tangle]

its the best evidence we have that the weavers tried to groom Hornet into replacing GMS and that Hornet was another intentional attempt at divinity

[gentle aspen]

I mean based on the current writing it’d be bad so

[lavish tangle]

We see the infection process fully with myla and partially with sky and bretta, the first thing that happens is that they stop making sense and start speaking gibberish, in myla’s example she stops speaking completely and then turns to hurt you

[muted lantern]

I mean we don't really get much weaver characterization, so it felt fine

[lapis creek]

and then they shouldve had a whole arc in act 2 about getting green prince to move on from his grief and depression and finally become the leader verdania needed him to be (this requires verdania to still be alive)

[silk dirge]

yeah but im in the kitchen

[spark valve]

I don’t know if they even needed to be fleshed out more they should’ve just not immediately been distracted from by Vespa and WL’s boring exposition

[silk dirge]

lore is the only thing i can cook

[steel turret]

Idk where they got the balls to be racist to a god from when they had to run away from silk with their tails between their legs

[lapis creek]

to be clear you still have to kill him in act 3

[silk dirge]

i have a lore gene i think

[sinful nimbus]

I mean by itself its not super interesting

[edgy nebula]

i wish ckk was expanded on, so much potential lore and culture

[silk dirge]

i hope the writing class im taking next quarter lets me cook with it

[silk dirge]

RIGHT ACRONYM FOR KHANN SPOTTED

[lavish tangle]

Ckk?

[golden olive]

coral forest DLC trust

[silk dirge]

😭

[steel turret]

It’s not too late, dlc

[spark valve]

It’s a contrast with gms’s relationship with lace which is apparently what the game decided act3 should be about

[edgy nebula]

crust king khann

[lavish tangle]

Ah

[sinful nimbus]

Life if the old hearts got like more 3 lore tablets to explain their lore

[muted lantern]

It does feel like this chat is entirely about whether the writing is good or not sometimes rather than focusing on investigating the plot. maybe we are just running out of lore topics, idk

[lavish tangle]

1 tablet each would have sufficed man

[unique tangle]

waiting on the mossbag video

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah yeah but its missing... some sort of oomf to tie the entire memory together like Void Heart had

[spark valve]

Silksong kind of just tells you shit

[unique tangle]

to get my lore opinions

[silk dirge]

thats how it be

[edgy nebula]

i'm the khann guy, im like the only guy who actually knows that he died before the sitty dell

[lethal burrow]

Or maybe some people would rather just complain rather than actually try to engage with what's there

[lapis creek]

yeah star shut the fuck up

[steel turret]

Wait fr what killed him

[golden olive]

complaining is valid

[edgy nebula]

somehow gms, presumably

[silk dirge]

we should all discuss how wormways are a placeholder for plasmium spire which will be in the first dlc

[muted lantern]

harsh

[edgy nebula]

possibly mt. fay freezing, either the work of gms, fayforn, or the natural environment

[spark valve]

Everbloom is inferior to vh in terms of having a larger connection to the story sure but that’s just act 3

[lavish tangle]

I want to argue khan was alive when you steal his heart, evidence: he crusts AFTER you take the heart

[lethal burrow]

yeah but like do that in general don't clog this channel with it

[sinful nimbus]

Joker silence this whelp

[edgy nebula]

all we really know is that he did die pre-citadel

[steel turret]

I mean she is a goddess

[muted lantern]

Mods mods! off with his head! /j

[edgy nebula]

probably, but id say his kingdom fell pre-citadel

[lavish tangle]

The kingdom I do agree 100%

[ancient sinew]

stop minimodding

[silk dirge]

does anyone have pictures of plasmium spire from acmi

[golden olive]

do we even know what khann did to be called a tyrant

[lavish tangle]

Mega mod instead

[lapis creek]

no. all she does is bitch and whine about silksong's passable story and how bad it is i swear she must hate silkgong and me by extension

[unique tangle]

he ruled with a hardened claw

[pseudo raptor]

What do we think about who mutilated Widow?

[spark valve]

I mean militaristic state

[unique tangle]

his claw was very hard

[silk dirge]

im waiting for the day someone takes acmi photos with more than 2 pictures

[steel turret]

It’s gotta be GMS

[fresh badger]

Holy shit I rember you

[edgy nebula]

ruled half of pharloom under an iron fist and through harsh ways, though he's more nuanced than just a tyrant

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah I mean you can't critique red memory in a vacuum

[spark valve]

Cheese some people can’t tell this is sarcastic

[dire lynx]

the other weavers imo

[silk dirge]

isnt watcher on the edge literally like border control 😭

[ancient sinew]

@sinful nimbus don’t listen to the haters, keep complaining

[lethal burrow]

mhm, sure.

[muted lantern]

I just caught theme memeing now lol

[edgy nebula]

no 😭

[lavish tangle]

Propaganda maybe

[lethal burrow]

I guess it's only OK when people you like do it

[sinful nimbus]

Please don't ping me I don't really like you

[silk dirge]

it would fit khann

[golden olive]

so rude..

[spark valve]

🔥 🖊️

[edgy nebula]

the memento hints at him being stationed at the sandsea wastes to watch and wait for life anew

[ancient sinew]

That’s what I like to see

Keep at it

[unique tangle]

what story??

[lapis creek]

the um

[silk dirge]

anyways

[steel turret]

Yeah the conchflies are the border control

[lapis creek]

uhhhhhhhh

[silk dirge]

does anyone

[edgy nebula]

yeah exactly

[golden olive]

wtf is the plasmium spire from acmi

[lapis creek]

good mothers are good bad mothers are bad

[steel turret]

I mean why else would they be so awful lmao

[unique tangle]

you're telling me this game has an actual story when the entire closing act of said story happens by pure happenstance

[silk dirge]

there was a lifeblood looking tower thing on a past map

[lavish tangle]

Fatbrett’s video

[spark valve]

Woooooow so deep so revolutionary

[golden olive]

what is acmi tho

[silk dirge]

which is likely first dlc

[ancient sinew]

Didn’t you just call out Star for criticizing the story get a grip man this is just hypocrisy at its finest

[spark valve]

Hypocritical hit

[silk dirge]

exhibit in australia with a bunch of silksong content

most interesting is it has pictures of the map from various points in development

[unique tangle]

i couldve gotten this by just reading moss mother's Hj entry

[dire lynx]

...Watch...Remember...Till time... Life anew...

[lapis creek]

no im saying it's good it really moved me

[golden olive]

i guarantee you plasmium will never ever be mentioned in any dlc

[lapis creek]

i didnt know that befoe

[silk dirge]

thats just wrong

[golden olive]

i guarantee

[silk dirge]

pharloom bay is likely to be dlc

[spark valve]

Meh

[lavish tangle]

It will be like lifeblood we will have a dlc with plasmium in the name and nothing else

[lapis creek]

i think star is just mad that it subverted her expectations

[silk dirge]

and plasmium is related to pharloom bay

[golden olive]

EXACTLY

[silk dirge]

zylotol mentions it

[spark valve]

It’s odd that zylotol references finding plasmium in salt stricken waters then we go to salt stricken waters and nothing

[sinful nimbus]

Act 3 got me counting my fingers to check if i was dreaming \🥀

It sure did subvert my expectations

[edgy nebula]

@silk dirge unsure if someone already sent it but is this what youre looking for

[lavish tangle]

When? Am I stupid

[spark valve]

Turned into bad fanon

[lapis creek]

there are no standards by which we can judge anything everybody knows this

[spark valve]

First interaction

[silk dirge]

im basing pharloom bay prediction off the suspicious door in bilewater and the fact tc has modified code with something related to "bay"

[ancient sinew]

Ladies and gentlemen, Silksong

[silk dirge]

yup this was what i was looking for

[lavish tangle]

First interaction with who

[sinful nimbus]

🤣

[edgy nebula]

coolio

[silk dirge]

if only it had more than 2 pixels

[lapis creek]

i do think it will be a dlc thing

[spark valve]

Highly unlikely! The grey and barren soil of the mainland could never produce something as singular as this, and that is undisputable fact!
Plasmium was discovered by my master at the farthest edge of Pharloom, hidden deep in salt-stricken waters. I brought it to these caves under her direction, to study how it flourishes in a foreign place.

[golden olive]

salt stricken waters being which area? bile/putrified?

[ancient sinew]

Who do you think

[spark valve]

xylitol

[silk dirge]

pharloom bay is the thing i am most confident about

[lapis creek]

acmi maps have had lifeblood spires forever

[spark valve]

pale lake is a salty lake

[lavish tangle]

I was asking when did we go to the salt stricken water my bad

[dire lynx]

pharloom bay mayhaps

[silk dirge]

tc wouldnt just leave an extremely suspicious door in bilewater for nothing

[lavish tangle]

Which one

[silk dirge]

one that the acmi map shows leads exactly to pharloom bay

[edgy nebula]

the one in the shakra map room?

[golden olive]

so basically we're gonna fight a lifeblood-revived shakra's master in the dlc

[silk dirge]

yeah

[unique tangle]

these are the same guys that made the beasts den statue

[sinful nimbus]

That's a Pokenabbin

[edgy nebula]

i thought that wouldve originally lead to verdania, but honestly? pharloom bay is prolly better

[spark valve]

probably, just an elder hu clone

[golden olive]

elder hu with markoth arena and no-eyes projectiles

[edgy nebula]

herrah's husband was a great pokenabbin

honored caste cause he was khann's son

[silk dirge]

thats where the cut pharloom bay map was placed exactly

[unique tangle]

wait i see it

[silk dirge]

acmi maps confirm it

[edgy nebula]

oh thats curious

[lapis creek]

verdania was on the left

[sinful nimbus]

Seeing old maps is surreal

[silk dirge]

plus team cherry was seen modifying something related to "bay" in the code

[sinful nimbus]

Everything made... sense and felt normal

[lapis creek]

april 2021 would have been peak i think

[sinful nimbus]

No abyss 🥹

[silk dirge]

i firmly believe pharloom bay will be like late this year or early next year then summer we get a major update then winter we get steel city

[golden olive]

has lifeblood been shown to revive dead bugs

[silk dirge]

nah thats an L

[gentle aspen]

zango ig

[silk dirge]

if silksong doesnt have shadow creepers i dont want to play it

[unique tangle]

april 2021 was the "kingdom thats still alive" they promised us

[lapis creek]

ik pharlooms folly isnt actually supposed to refer to pharloom but it kind of would have made sense if the beauty and the peace referred to the kingdom itself

[unique tangle]

but then they couldnt help themselves

[lapis creek]

im surprised it survived the rewrite

[unique tangle]

and gave us another dead kingdom

[silk dirge]

probably bc an alive kingdom is actually really hard to make when you think about it

[lethal burrow]

everything in the current version of the game is bad and we have clearly figured out everything possible about the story in less than two months despite taking us years to fully unpack hollow knights story just because silkstory is so shallow by comparison,

[spark valve]

I mean it was written at a time while the citadel was still active

[lavish tangle]

We can still get this in a mass memory dlc

[silk dirge]

like think about how hard it would be to make a truly alive citadel

[gentle aspen]

For someone who wants to talk about lore you do a lot of complaining about people talking about lore

[unique tangle]

apparently writing an infection that isnt just an infection was difficult too

[gentle aspen]

please stop

[lapis creek]

YEAH STAR SHUT THE FUCK UP

[spark valve]

Don’t take the bait

[unique tangle]

cause the haunting was supposed to be entirely different

[silk dirge]

when

[spark valve]

Please direct all star hate to #star-slander

[gentle aspen]

your banter sucks get something new

[silk dirge]

as far as im concerned gms was always the plan

[lethal burrow]

I do a lot of complaining about people complaining.

If they're allowed to complain then, so am I about them

[unique tangle]

they said so somewhere iirc, that the haunting was gonna be new in that it didnt just work like the infection

[silk dirge]

the kingdom wouldve been in different stages of decline

[lethal burrow]

I just hope the moderators don't play favourites

[unique tangle]

but in practice theyre just the same thing

[gentle aspen]

You’re not actually discussing the lore
You’re just whining about what on the lore people are talking about

[golden olive]

they're like 99% similar

[gentle aspen]

this isn’t favoritism you’re actively not using the channel for its purpose

[lethal burrow]

But others don't do that either, and I haven't seen anything ever happened to them

[golden olive]

can GMS haunt dead bugs or do they gotta be alive

[lavish tangle]

You complain about people, they complain about lore, big difference. You both suck but you suck more sorry

[lethal burrow]

not even a peep out of mouth

[silk dirge]

yeah thats what im saying an actually alive kingdom is really fucking hard to make

[unique tangle]

she can haunt dead bugs
see: the citadel

[gentle aspen]

wow
then ping when it happens instead of complaining when it happens to you

[lethal burrow]

i'll at least accept this judge

[golden olive]

then its literally the same wtf 💀

[silk dirge]

an alive citadel wouldve been insane to make

[unique tangle]

for sure

[lethal burrow]

i'll keep that in mind

[unique tangle]

but im just saying promises werent met 😔

[silk dirge]

thats probably what happened i would say

[unique tangle]

even if i understand why the cuts were made

[silk dirge]

thats what dlc and lore updates are for

[golden olive]

lore rewrites actually

[silk dirge]

plasmium update(not to be confused with pharloom bay + plasmium spire dlc)

[unique tangle]

but turning a still kinda-alive kingdom in 2021 into a fully dead one we have now still hurts

[lapis creek]

at some point around bellhart it was mentioned that people enter into the haunting to release their pain and suffering

[spark valve]

eh wouldn't really expect updates to add in what people were expecting as like a whole living kingdom

[lapis creek]

which is kind of interesting i just wish they explored it more

[edgy nebula]

sharpe wasnt even cut with the backer's knowledge, it's weird

[unique tangle]

but its okay cause plasmium will revive everything

[golden olive]

hades 2 gave me hope ❤️‍🩹

[manic pewter]

I cant wait to go to ACMI and get a clearer view of the beta maps

[spark valve]

Like infection

[unique tangle]

thats plasmium infection will revive the kingdom

[silk dirge]

please take photos with upwards of 2 pixels

[lavish tangle]

Guys stop comparing ss with current hk, instead compare ss with hk before dlc and updates

[manic pewter]

Yes dw im going to, got a 200MP mode on my phone

[edgy nebula]

0/10 wheres my flukenest bro

[silk dirge]

like i want to see cool beta maps and then its just like are these map photos from 1967 or some shit

[lavish tangle]

Exactly thank you

[spark valve]

Volt filament exists

[golden olive]

TC actually marginally changed the lore in HK in updates pretty often now that i remember

[edgy nebula]

not flukenest

[golden olive]

i can see them fixing everything

[manic pewter]

And again, if theres any SPECIFIC things ppl want photos of, dm me and ill get those things to you, but i will be taking high res photos of everything

[edgy nebula]

i want bs lingering hitboxes

[lapis creek]

i feel like infection is somewhat different in this regard

[spark valve]

Is it

[lethal burrow]

are you going to the expo thing?

[silk dirge]

hey atleast thread storm got fixed

[lethal burrow]

If so then I would love clear images of some of the artwork. It would be great for a reference material to try to nail the style.

i'm an artist, but my God the hollow knight style is deceptively difficult for me

[lapis creek]

it's radiance preying on people's desires and ambition rather than on their exhaustion

[unique tangle]

on behalf of the wiki
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TStzFo5rNTLWg2mwKlJBs-oBhmfTUrQy6Hl2KQH0rAo/edit?tab=t.0

[manic pewter]

yep!

[lapis creek]

mechanically it's almost exactly the same

[spark valve]

Exhaustion -> desire for relief

[manic pewter]

I'm going to melbourne from the 19th-23rd of november

[lavish tangle]

Especially since the one guy in the underworks is exhausted but doesn’t care to stop and is not infected

[silk dirge]

ok its interesting the diving bell was there before the abyss area existed

kinda curious what their plan with it was

[spark valve]

It could’ve been used to access a more natural magma area but alas

[lavish tangle]

I want to say the abyss was always there in the plans but wasn’t in any material they would share just for spoilers

[unique tangle]

i mean "under the lava" was a concept that existed since the start

[silk dirge]

abyss with magma wouldve been cool

[unique tangle]

it just mightve not been the abyss under the lava

[lethal burrow]

ye

[edgy nebula]

alright im goin to bed, remember to talk about splinter lore and how theyll lowkey rule pharloom

[silk dirge]

like void mixing with lava somehow

[lavish tangle]

Magma void interactions

[edgy nebula]

goodnight skonglore

[lethal burrow]

is magma conductive?

[silk dirge]

gn

i dont think so

[lavish tangle]

Good knight crust king khan

[lethal burrow]

Good night, Bobby worm

[lavish tangle]

Should be, molten metals and what not

[edgy nebula]

uushka, karak!

[lavish tangle]

Recent studies show that the electrical conductivity of liquid with a bulk silicate Earth composition exceeds 10^4 S/m at basal magma ocean conditions, potentially surpassing the threshold for dynamo activity

[lethal burrow]

It's interesting that void isn't conductive

[lavish tangle]

How do we know that

[lethal burrow]

because they said in the patch notes lol.

[lavish tangle]

Oh

[lethal burrow]

it's very funny.

[manic pewter]

Bc they removed the ability for the void to conduct volt stuff in the latest patch

[lavish tangle]

Ohhh

I think lava doesn’t conduct in game

[vestal swan]

Lol they fixed that

[unique tangle]

why did they even fix it

literally just lore reasons?

void is canonically not conductive woaw

[vestal swan]

I reported it as a "is this supposed to be happening" thing

It's crazy that they actually fixed it that means that it was not supposed to be happening, wild

[lethal burrow]

I bet you prompted him to think about that for the first time and then they decided it shouldn't be

[manic pewter]

updated family tree with suggestions from ppl, any more things i could add? (i know its a nightmare aesthetically but ill fix that up at some point)

[lavish tangle]

ok if the void is non conductive that means the void liquid itself is not alive, but rather the life is thea actual tentacles

[vestal swan]

It's alive, it's just not normal alive

Same with lifeblood and these wisps and possibly steel people

I keep forgetting the wisps I need to include them when we talk about non-standard life forms

[lavish tangle]

lifeblood (substance) is not alive, the things that give you hearts (flying mfs in ss) are

[vestal swan]

Womblings

[lapis creek]

more or less yeah i can see how you could draw this relationship. I do think there was potential to expand on it in a way that made it more distinct, but other than pavo and bell hermit there isnt much dialogue on what would drive a bug to become haunted and it plays a similar role to the infection

[vestal swan]

They don't give soul either though

[lavish tangle]

add the little weavers the weaversong spawns

[vestal swan]

They did

[lavish tangle]

yeah they are in the alive but not really category

[lavish tangle]

no not the charm I mean the actual thing it spawns

[spark valve]

I mean haunting is less dependent on you wanting it

[lapis creek]

yeah at some point they decide that it was woven into the bugs' dna and that's that

i really liked this dialogue and idk how i feel about literally all the bugs being happy to be free

but i guess this particular nuance wasnt really what the game was about

which is fine

[lavish tangle]

no this guy is just annoying af "oh noo the bugs are trapped that sucks" (frees em) "oh wow look at you you made them live in pain so cool shame on you"

[fossil ledge]

Looks pretty good so far! I'm guessing blue is for male higher beings and pink for female? Although Grimm is "male", I don't think a gender is established for the Nightmare Heart

Also, isn't Karina a Moth?

[spark valve]

I’m not sure the point of this is for bell hermit to be correct

[lavish tangle]

vespa isn't even a higher being

[lapis creek]

yeah its not

[fossil ledge]

Indeed, but she's coloured too. I wonder what the coloured tab means then?

[lapis creek]

for sure the point of the game wouldnt be that the correct way to solve your problems is through this magical shortcut that deprives you of your free will

[vestal swan]

That's just the parent lvl
GMS is on grandparent lvl
Etc

[lapis creek]

but he is so egregiously wrong because absolutely no one was ever actually (wrongfully) comforted by being haunted

[fossil ledge]

So the first of the line known is coloured? I suppose that makes sense

[manic pewter]

Yeah look thats a bit of a quirk of the website im using, i was planning to just leave them all genderless for ease

[fossil ledge]

Ah, I see, fair enough

[fossil ledge]

How do we know Karina isn't a moth?

[lavish tangle]

one person wanted to be like the ones above at least, but I do not think he knew about the haunting (treadmill man)

[manic pewter]

And yeah the different "levels" an in generations is not my choice, I'll spread them out a bit more using another program at some point, this is just the basic getting the correct links between stuff

[vestal swan]

You think the two moths in the room would have something to say about each other

[fossil ledge]

You would, but Thistlewind already talks about Markoth. It's odd that Karina doesn't mention Thistlewind and instead says how she hasn't seen any of her species in a while, but spirits tend to be single-minded in whatever obsessions or ways of thinking they had before death, and clearly this one is quite vain

If she looked different I wouldn't even consider it a possibility, but she has all the key moth features

[manic pewter]

True true those fuzzy antenna are very moth-y

karina being the only one in spirits glade to mention higher beings is interesting

[fossil ledge]

It is indeed

[raven condor]

Silksong lore bomb. Lost Garmond isn’t actually lost, as Zaza knows his location.

[fossil ledge]

Omg

Bro is so right

TC dropped the ball hard with that one

[timber pond]

What if Zaza s also lost? 💀

[spark valve]

zaza knows the route to a bellway hard to be lost with access to public transit

[pulsar helm]

wait, by that logic, is lost lace lost? Hornet can find her

[craggy smelt]

if Lost Verdania is lost, how come there isn't Void everywhere

[spark valve]

just wait for lace 4, Found Lace

[foggy fractal]

Found Lace: "Play me... your Silksong..."

[stuck berry]

thinking about it i'd be down for hollow knight 3 to have the nightmare heart as the main antagonist this time

the true final boss of hk1 was the goddess of light and dreams the true final boss of silksong was a knight infused with the essence of darkness

whatever the nightmare realm is it's neither of these

[craggy smelt]

we already had the Void go from a dangerous but generally chill eldritch substance to an antagonistic force
I don't know that I'd want to see Scarlet Essence go the same route

the Heart is a little morbid and scary, but doesn't strike me as really actively evil

I wouldn't mind more dream realm lore though

find out a little bit more about the 'split' that occured in the past and what it all means

[low obsidian]

Is there anything unique if you go into Styx's secret room while he's away?

[olive quartz]

why doesn't hornet bind during her fights in hollow knight? is she stupid?

[stuck berry]

probably wanted to give the knight a fighting chance

actually hornet can hit the knight a maximum of 9 times before it dies which is just enough for a bind

or 11 but at that point the knight is nearly dead so no point in binding

[olive quartz]

lmfao so the knight is just too baby

[spark valve]

she can't bind because that ability wasn't designed

there's no lore reason why she wouldn't do it

[silk dirge]

powerscaling moment

there are a lot of gameplay vs lore moments

for example you can jump all the way down the opening cutscene pit and not take fall damage but a silly elevator in grand gate that falls like 1 meter takes you to 1hp

[stuck berry]

didn't she also get thrashed around being in that elevator

[silk dirge]

idk

[frosty beacon]

what species of bug are the roach handlers i.e. ass jim?

[spark valve]

many characters don't really have a species indicated

[frosty beacon]

and is it true that roachkeepers are advanced aged dredge catchers?

roachkeepers are the big guys

dredge catchers are the basic greymoor guys

[spark valve]

it's possible

the roachkeepers could be supplying greymoor

[silk dirge]

they dont have the double horn so idk

theyre all moorbugs tho

[frosty beacon]

they look strikingly similar otherwise tho right

[silk dirge]

i mean thats just how moorbugs look

[quartz salmon]

These designs are so similar that I feel the little guys were originally Sinners road enemies and filled in the gap that the wisp enemies left when they were moved above greymoor

[orchid pine]

Fellas I’m watching Epic the musical for the first time do I talk about skong lore now and finish it later or should I go watch peak

[frosty beacon]

epic like that fuckass movie about the girl who shrinks and talks with fairys and has james cordan comic relief snail

[jaunty dagger]

I think sinner's road used to be part of Greymoor, since Team Cherry said in an early interview that Greymoor was the largest area they've made so far.

[silk dirge]

yeah

[orchid pine]

No the one about the odyssey 😭

[orchid pine]

The Hornt was in fact very stupid I mean she picked a fight with ghost twice and got thrashed

[manic pewter]

can wait for there to be a knight fight in dlc (cope)

[frosty beacon]

bro our ass is so cooked

[craggy smelt]

it won't be the one you think
||Hollow Knight comes looking for Hornet||

[frosty beacon]

it still is p big, if you also consider wisp thicket

[manic pewter]

I do wonder what happened after that bit at the end of the game where THK meets hornet

[frosty beacon]

not bigger than choral or bilewater in final product but still a good size

[jaunty dagger]

One thing I'm confused about is if Sinner's Road was under Citadel Rule.

[orchid pine]

Some people swear they can see dirtmouth in the title screen and I’m just like, no?? Cope?

[craggy smelt]

they might have a superhero fight for a little bit out of misunderstanding, but then they're friends

[frosty beacon]

i mean like, it's not called "pure road"

[manic pewter]

yeah like bc of red memory we know hornet was also spending quite a bit of time in the palace so maybe they were just chill

[craggy smelt]

it might have fallen under their control in the sense that they blocked it off
didn't want pilgrims taking that path (hence, 'Sinner's Road'

[jaunty dagger]

True, but Benjin and Crull dialogue seems to imply that muckroaches serve as the main food source to Greymoor.

[jaunty dagger]

That would make since.

[manic pewter]

werent they just eating muckroaches bc they didnt have any other options?

lemme check dialogue

ah yeah its both

Benjin : Us moorbugs gotta eat, don't we? They're wild fast breeders, them Muckroaches. Hard shells and tough meat, if you can even crack 'em open, but options ain't plentiful so we ain't choosy. Ain't so bad to eat, once you're used to it. The guts is the best bit, but them's a choice cut and we ain't had it for ages now.

[craggy smelt]

since

[manic pewter]

They are the main food source but they dont really like them

[frosty beacon]

gee i wonder why the citadel doesn't want us to go see the beautiful landscape with beautiful plantlife and a friendly native tribe

[jaunty dagger]

They said that farming was varied in Greymoor Before Citidel took over, and silk can't be eaten.

[manic pewter]

something something city wants to keep control over their citizens by having them only eat rubbish stuff

[frosty beacon]

this sounds like muckroaches exoskeleton is really strong
which in hindsight, holy shit if hornet is able to pull the exoskeleton apart with her bare hands, she's ripped

btw question

can you get roach guts from bloatroaches or muck pirahnas?

[manic pewter]

thats a great question actually

[craggy smelt]

oh nooo...
(just found out what happens to Benjin and Crull in Act 3)

[manic pewter]

yeahhhh :(

[manic pewter]

with bloatroaches, are there any places where their bodies could fall and you could harvest it anyway?

[frosty beacon]

uh i'm too lazy to check

[jaunty dagger]

I think it's only muckroaches

Could only find that on the wiki

[manic pewter]

yeah I do tend to trust the wiki for stuff like that

[jaunty dagger]

good point good point

[manic pewter]

I do have a save in act 2 that hasnt done that quest yet so i could go test tonight

got uni for the next 5 hours tho

[jaunty dagger]

Hey so is it proven that Widow woke GMS or is that just the leading theory?

I know about the Widow room in the cradle

[steep ridge]

widow the secret mastermind of silksong...

[spark valve]

it seems like things were more caused by the whiteward's silk injection stuff than widow

[jaunty dagger]

oh yeah good point

[spark valve]

if widow could have woken her up the weavers probably would've just killed her instead of only weakening her

[jaunty dagger]

Did she only stay in Pharloom because she was punished by the other Weavers?

[spark valve]

I'm not sure why she would leave

[jaunty dagger]

It's just odd to me that multiple Weaver tribes all fled at once yet she decided to remain

[spark valve]

well

the ones that fled fled before the citadel was built as a way to escape gms

widow is pretty fond of gms she doesn't have a reason to flee

[steep ridge]

it's possible some of the ones that created the citadel fled considering the map in weavenest cindril

[spark valve]

weavenests predated the citadel

the weavenest that came up with the citadel was atla

[steep ridge]

is that implied anywhere in game did I miss something

[spark valve]

the snare setter desk plus a prototype songshrine bell in atla

[jaunty dagger]

I do believe that the Pious Isamor statue is evidence of a Weaver lead Citiadel.

[spark valve]

they built and initially led the citadel yeah there's a bunch indicating that

mm dialogue, ballador rune harp, weaver effigies, etc

[jaunty dagger]

Oh okay

I misunderstood

[jaunty dagger]

Oh cool!

[spark valve]

clearer

so yeah that's where they designed the citadel and its song to keep her asleep

the weavenests were places rebellious weavers could plot in secret out of her range of detection it's why the cindril weavers used one to plan their escape

[jaunty dagger]

Is there a lore reason for why only Weaver's are able to use Bellways? (empty harp thingies) Why would they want Pilgrims to Struggle, just so the judges can judge a Pilgrim's journey?

[steep ridge]

I love the desperation of the weavers trying to escape gms

[molten python]

Only Weavers can use Bellways?

[spark valve]

the pilgrimage is a trial so it would make sense for the pilgrims not to be able to use bellways, I suspect citadel caste since their replacement were able to use them too though

[jaunty dagger]

Ex: Sherma saying the judges were peaceful.

[jaunty dagger]

Oh yeah, I forgot Citadel bugs were trained with silk.

[jaunty dagger]

The instrument next to Bellways appears to be a harp without strings. Meaning only those with silk would be able to call BellBeasts

[steep ridge]

considering all the sins in their religion, probably? it's hard to tell which citadel leader is responsible for all those sins

[molten python]

So Hornet specifically is able to call the Bell Beast without Silk since it is allied with her or something?

[jaunty dagger]

Looking back on it, "sinning" probably means going against the Citadel in any way. Which is why the rosery system was set in place by either the Weavers or Conductors.

[jaunty dagger]

Yeah, since playing the Bell Beast song in Act 3 near a Bellway also spawns the main Bell Beast.

[timber pond]

The Bellways likely conduct sound very effectively. So the call is probably what alerts bell beast

[jaunty dagger]

Wait why does Bellhart even exist? Like, I know it's supposed to aide Pilgrims on their quest, but why is it made out a giant Bellvein?

[spark valve]

it might just have been the safest place for pilgrims to stop and eventually settle

[graceful grail]

So the point of the choir was to keep GMS asleep?

[jaunty dagger]

Yes, dialogue from both Conductor Ballador and the giant dead vaultkeeper heavily imply this

Also if you are able to knock the mask off the mask maker he kinda spells it out for you

But that dialogue is hard to find.

[graceful grail]

Did white lady make this??

[jaunty dagger]

I never thought about that

It would make since that everyone within the white palace wears leaf-like clothing

[graceful grail]

Also, it’s obvious, but i realised the cradel has its name because the weavers were putting GMS to sleep there.

[lethal burrow]

i NEED that as a modded skin 😔

[maiden meteor]

I assumed it was Cradle because weavers were “born” there

[manic pewter]

wait thats an interesting thought, the cradle is at the very top of the kingdom apart from the abandoned village, so is there a chance that GMS came from the surface?

[humble peak]

I don't see why it would be

[twin dragon]

Gms came to pharloom at some point

as pharloom already had established kingdoms before

she's def from somewhere else

[humble peak]

like yeah she came to pharloom
but I don't see how the place she happened to be sealed relates to where she came from

[manic pewter]

Yeah and she doesnt strike me as being able to burrow between kingdoms like a wyrm so maybe surface?

[humble peak]

she could have also come from like
the east

[manic pewter]

ohhhh yeah true

[humble peak]

or the west
or, dare I say it, north or south (forbidden directions in a sidescroller)

[molten python]

THK was sealed in a black egg and came from a black egg.

[humble peak]

hold on you're onto something

[humble peak]

Playing the Needolin at all at the bellway summons the bell beast

[muted lantern]

What is couriers rasher made of?

[twin dragon]

meat

[manic pewter]

So im making family tree, where should widow go? just another 'child' of GMS, or should she be a 'child' of the weavers like Eva or weaversong

[muted lantern]

shes basically an aunt

to hornet

shes sister of the first weavers

technically lace would fall under the definition of an aunt as well

at least for positioning in the family tree

[craggy smelt]

...couriers

[muted lantern]

cannibal pill theory

[fossil ledge]

Isn't Widow a Weaver? Why would she go under Weavers like Eva?

[muted lantern]

taste wise what would we equate a couriers rasher to, it seems to be a very fatty meat, maybe pork? beef?

[manic pewter]

I mean you generally have rashers of bacon so i was thinkin pork

[manic pewter]

you right

[muted lantern]

a rasher is a real thing?? i gotta google this

I thought it was just short for ration

[manic pewter]

Yeah yeah you say "rashers of bacon"

[muted lantern]

very odd, i thought couriers rasher was like a slab of meat

[manic pewter]

Yeah i thought it was like a rasher that has been like rolled up

[craggy smelt]

pre-sliced, bundled together

[craggy smelt]

num num num

[muted lantern]

this stuff looks wild

[manic pewter]

hmm it does look like a slab

[muted lantern]

it honestly kinda looks like a tumor...

[fossil ledge]

To be fair it's bug flesh

[muted lantern]

what kinda bug is it from anyway?

[fossil ledge]

Insects don't have veins and exoskeletons instead of endoskeletons, so

[muted lantern]

the couriers are from bellhart, so maybe its pondskipper meat?

[craggy smelt]

they got bones in holloworld though

[fossil ledge]

Some do, some don't. Depends on the species

[manic pewter]

my favourite part of the family tree ive made so far ngl

[muted lantern]

bugs have bones in silksong, widow is said to have a spine

[muted lantern]

have you added the pale kings baby death pit yet

[manic pewter]

I've kinda just included that in the "other vessels" bit

[fossil ledge]

Some appear to have skeletons while others dont'. I'm guessing we can now confirm Weavers all have endoskeletons as well

[muted lantern]

i believe its at least several million if not a billion dead babies. it deserves a big box

[manic pewter]

damn call white lady a sunfish with the amount of kids she had

[fossil ledge]

Yeah, it's several millions at least

[fossil ledge]

I mean, trees also have a lot of offspring, as do fungi and ferns

[muted lantern]

people forget just how much of an atrocity the abyss was, theres enough baby skulls to make entire mountains and cave systems

[fossil ledge]

Which given she's a root, is likely what inspired it

[muted lantern]

pk killed more kids than his nations entire population

[craggy smelt]

i keep picturing a dandelion
WL just spraying babies all over the place

[manic pewter]

no cost too great

[muted lantern]

"many of you may die, but thats a price I'm willing to pay"

[fossil ledge]

That's what he thought, anyway

We find out later that it ultimately wasn't

[craggy smelt]

and even then Hornet's all 'it was worth a shot'

[fossil ledge]

Given how large the eggs are, I'm guessing they must have grown after being deposited in the Abyss. Otherwise how would they have been laid, right?

[craggy smelt]

big lady~!

[fossil ledge]

I mean, it was either that or destruction by the Radiance

[craggy smelt]

I kind've like the idea of the eggs growing in her branches like fruit though

[muted lantern]

I mean the pale kings story is a tragedy, he became a monster to try to preserve the product of his good intentions, he scrambled against fate and caused untold pain to his family

[unique tangle]

https://youtu.be/paC50WjAC6U

[fossil ledge]

Wouldn't she have been much smaller before? Unless she can freely change her size when at full strength

[craggy smelt]

who knows - she was smaller at one point, going by her chair in the White Palace
but she seemed bigger than that in Hornet's memory, equivalent to her size in the first game

[muted lantern]

it seems like she was still big in white palace based on how we see her in red memory, but that might be post sealing so she might grow because she got depressed

[fossil ledge]

We know for a fact she grew after sealing herself away, as it otherwise would've been impossible for her to pass through the tiny gate. The size we see imprinted on the chair in the nursery makes sense

However, yeah, she does appear to be significantly bigger than that in the Red Memory

[craggy smelt]

a plant god-creature growing and changing shape seems pretty plausible in this setting

[fossil ledge]

Either it took place after she sealed herself away, the White Lady can change her size at will, or the Red Memory appearance is an amalgamation of her past and present form, given she actually has a conversation with Hornet

[fossil ledge]

Agreed

Especially given pale higher beings in particular appear to be naturally inclined to evolve and adapt

[muted lantern]

i mean it seems like its a trait of quite a few queens changing size for whatever reason, vespas corpse is massive, karmelita towers over her original size, one could argue herrah grew too.

idk why, but its a interesting pattern

[craggy smelt]

in those cases, that just seems like natural growth - getting larger over time as they age

it is pretty interesting though

[maiden meteor]

White Lady also seems to have become larger

[craggy smelt]

ants and bees are actually related, both types of wasps

[muted lantern]

vespa and her creatine addiction

girl probably can't even leave the hive at that size

[craggy smelt]

I think I recall that being mentioned somewhere

[muted lantern]

I wish we learned more about vespa honestly

i like the hive a lot

mostly because bees are my favorite bug

[craggy smelt]

heeey

Official manual: "ruled by a queen who grew so huge she could no longer leave her domain."

[muted lantern]

absurd creature

[muted lantern]

damn good find

[lethal burrow]

why would hornet make me do this

[craggy smelt]

maybe we'll get a few more bits of Vespa in the inevitable Hall of Bosses that'll include her as a bonus boss

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/wing-gaster-chara-gif-460255226754081608

[lethal burrow]

hopefully

[craggy smelt]

: I hate ants almost as much as I hate flies.

[muted lantern]

if we ever get to play as the pale king in this series i hope all the gameplay is divorce proceedings

[craggy smelt]

beelieve

[muted lantern]

i love bees

Maybe I should by BEEdyweightbuilder

but that would make my name even more incomprehensible

[craggy smelt]

one area I would have liked - the Hive wasn't bad for this, but not what I imagine
is an area devoted to wax

a big drippy waxy region, with bugs harvesting it to make candles

[muted lantern]

perfect opportunity for a character to say none of your beeswax

[fossil ledge]

Just out of curiosity, do you know how beeswax is made? xD

Unless you meant Hallownest bugs and not members of the Hive

[fossil ledge]

You make a good point. Trees tend to grow bigger with age, as do termite queens. Bees, wasps and ant Queen's less so, but still do a bit after they start laying eggs and the colony grows

[craggy smelt]

in my mind it was bees producing it and non-bees harvesting it
it could be a region with a hive of bee-like bugs, non-sapient, not specifically the Hallownest Hive bees

[fossil ledge]

Ah, fair

[craggy smelt]

there are a few mentions in journal entries where Hornet comments on larger bugs growing to their great size through getting enough food
I wonder just how much diet can affect a bug's size in holloworld, if some species can grow exceptionally large if they just eat enough
some bugs development is also affected by their diet

[fossil ledge]

Quite true as well

[chilly anvil]

what is pious isamor

[slow olive]

A pilgrim greeter

[craggy smelt]

i feel like he was an ancient pilgrim, from the earliest ages of the Citadel

he mentions it being unadorned stone, so it must've been a long time ago

before all the cogwork and filigree

his statue also gives me the impression that it was locked away as an outmoded relic, clashing with the present

[visual glacier]

It’s a statue with a voice recording

Cmon bro

[fierce ingot]

is there any info on where gms came from?

[lethal burrow]

no

[visual glacier]

No, like most higher beings she’s just there

[lone folio]

The higher beings just kind of exist

[craggy smelt]

cmon yourself, it's a statue of a person

[visual glacier]

It’s a generic pilgrim

[craggy smelt]

or a particularly pious one
named Isamor

immortalized for his contributions

[abstract rivet]

How will this affect the shawloom economy?

[muted lantern]

hornets sprint swim animation is so fucking funny to me

[stray fog]

If we get that, we might even get a thk boss fight

But that would be confirming etv

[visual glacier]

Would be easy as shit

Thk is already easy but without the infection buff, missing half its torso, missing an arm

Not looking good

[stray fog]

What if they make it so that Hornet sparred with thk in the white palace

[craggy smelt]

that would actually be an interesting way to have one, via memory

Hornet fighting angsty teen hollow knight

halfway between smol and prime forms

[stray fog]

Bro is physically incapable of being angsty

[craggy smelt]

got that idea instilled

no, I predict when THK shows up again, the steel clan got to them
outfitted them with a new steel arm

[stray fog]

🔥

Cool prosthetic arm

Hell yeah

[lethal burrow]

idk what they can do that's different then PV

[craggy smelt]

might as well just wait for the modders to put HK bosses into SK

[abstract rivet]

“Pharloom will last eternal”

[regal crow]

Is nameless town Dirtmouth? The geographical location is questionable, but it LOOKS like Dirtmouth. A little

[frank dove]

💀

[frank dove]

Def not completely different textures and building shapes

Only similarity is atmosphere, and that is just bc it is at/near surface

[regal crow]

Ah

[regal crow]

Any running theories about Nameless Town?

[regal crow]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-fight-cartoon-gif-13956206

[frank dove]

Only that we know that gms calls bugs from the surface down

[steady briar]

Bugs need masks to think?

[regal crow]

So it’s the pharloom version of Dirtmouth? Gateway to the underground kingdom I mean

[frank dove]

To be sane, they can think without them as we see with widow

[manic pewter]

widows story is sad :(

[frank dove]

Yeah but everyone all went down

Except 1 who died

And we get silk thing of

[ancient stirrup]

Its a reference to wizard of ooz

[chilly anvil]

[ancient stirrup]

I noticed immediately

[timber wharf]

ozymadias ass statement

also which one seems worse: pharloom or hallownest in their current states?

[steep ridge]

hallownest is a perfect fit for ozymandias

[steep ridge]

pharloom, probably, considering it's still living

[maiden meteor]

Hallownest is kinda too cooked

[opaque pier]

Dont listen to the propaganda, hallownest is completely fine

[manic pewter]

Question for yall, in this section of the family tree im making, do you think i should have broken vessel and THK connected directly to the radiance bc of the infection, or have a bit connected to the radiance labelling "infection", which then connects to those two?

[hazy abyss]

eh not really, you could say every infected enemy is connected directly to the radiance

[manic pewter]

Ok ezpz

[hazy abyss]

so i recommend putting every enemy there now since removing those two would be too much work now

[dire lynx]

no infection connection at all, if you did that essentially every bug would have to be included from both games

[manic pewter]

I am doing groups of bugs on the tree, I'm not trying to do every single one always

[charred nimbus]

So like, usually family trees put a order from the oldest child to the newest child

I'm not saying that is required, i just find weird seeing like, lace first then Phantom and Widow

[manic pewter]

Yeah with the family tree program im using its not a thing you can do unless you put specific dates in

[charred nimbus]

So you're not the one that decides their order? like, it would be impossible to put dates in it because we don't know any dates, but like, if it's automatically generated it makes sense

I tought the program would go like, you could just put the mouse on phantom and drag to the left

[manic pewter]

Yeah it does the layout automatically

[charred nimbus]

Yeah, that sucks but nothing that can be done

[manic pewter]

Yeah I have another program where i'll adjust the layout manually to be more aesthetic, but for now im mainly focusing on getting the right connections an getting everyone i can onto it

and im not just doing strict family relations, like ive included the 3 dreamers connected as 'siblings' by the dream seals so that i can include quirrel as an adoped child of monomon lol

[lethal burrow]

not even that, could have been the weavers

[amber bridge]

how is Herrah related to GMS directly? Doesn‘t it make more sense to put her below Weavers? Even then the situation w/ Weavers and GMS is a bit iffy, given they existed independent as Pharlids until transformed by her w/ new forms and higher thoughts

[hidden crater]

family reunion gotta be crazy

[lethal burrow]

she is a weaver so idfk

[lethal burrow]

also, why is widow there but not first sinner?

Also, what's that weird looking generic vessel that's not in any of the games

[manic pewter]

So a lot of the connections in the tree arent exactly 'relations' but GMS does awaken the weavers and most ppl assume herrah is part of that so im running with it

[manic pewter]

I FORGOT FIRST SINNER OMG

[terse warren]

No? She's a first gen Weaver

[manic pewter]

it was just a generic vessel image, i didnt think too deeply abt it

[lethal burrow]

i am 100% sure that vessel is not in that cut scene I don't know where that comes from

[pulsar radish]

What is Happening guys

[terse warren]

It is in the cutscene there's a lot of em

[manic pewter]

damn i was just trusting the wiki lol

[lethal burrow]

Family trees

(thank God we're not doing Elden Ring)

[terse warren]

Check the wiki sources before trusting

[amber bridge]

Ohhh I assumed the tree graph here is about direct „biological“ connections.

[terse warren]

Then gms would have no one

[amber bridge]

Really? Where was this said again? Do wish this was touched upon a bit more explicitly, cuz that‘s strong information implying direct transformation under GMS or smt?

[manic pewter]

Nah nah definitely not doing just bio, i based it off one another person had made so im even including stuff like weaversong and grimmchild as adopted kids of the knight

[terse warren]

Hornet is called a half weaver constantly

So Herrah is 100% Weaver

[amber bridge]

Technically Lace and Phantom could…? If you can see making children purely out of nothingness into something by hand, I could count it. Maybe not biological but another word though idk which one

[manic pewter]

Mushpore did this one and i started from there and just expanded

[terse warren]

That's not what biological means though, they're spun

[spark valve]

gms has no biology

[charred nimbus]

I mean, what exactly is biological here? since this is a fictional world, GMS is made of silk mostly, and she spun Lace and Phantom from her own silk

[heavy gyro]

Why are weaver queen and gms together

[amber bridge]

hence I said not biological in the end but another word and I think creator/creation fits the bill

[terse warren]

Giving birth is biological it's really not that deep

[manic pewter]

no idea i didnt make it

[charred nimbus]

How can you say it's not that deep when we're discussing a world and themes that don't exist?

I'm saying that GMS spun Lace and Phantom from her own silk

And she's made of silk.....

Microorganisms are biological and they don't give birth

They just multiply

[jade skiff]

How did GMS survive the void longer than Radiance?

I think probably of emotional stuff, void did not care of GMS (maybe), but probably wanted Radiance DEAD.

[terse warren]

Because the world has people that can give birth biologically therefore we know what a biological birth is

[charred nimbus]

So you're saying a virus is not biological because they don't give birth?

[fair pasture]

viruses are technically not alive

[terse warren]

[charred nimbus]

But Bacterias and Fungus are

[terse warren]

Even then no, biological is an adjective I'm using on the birth not the people

[manic pewter]

GMS is still REALLY powerful, like her bossfight is a tonne easier than radiance but I think it totally makes sense that she would be powerful enough to resist the void for a bit

[charred nimbus]

And we even have fungi people in Hollow knight

[fair pasture]

yes that is the case

[amber bridge]

think this is generally our first time we see a higher being (pale one at that) to actually be able to resist against the void consumption. this could possibly place gms higher in terms of resistance against void than radiance

[terse warren]

Cloning is different from birth because the birthed are exactly as the parent

Lace and Phantom are not the same as GMS therefore it is not biological birth

[terse warren]

Lmao no I'm all for the propaganda but this is just silly

[amber bridge]

how so?

[terse warren]

Radiance had to deal with a unified Void that actively wanted her dead, GMS was dealing with ununified Void that just wanted to nom on soul

[charred nimbus]

Yeah, i'm not saying that Lace and Phantom came from inside GMS in the usual way, i'm just thinking it is possible to assume it could be biological in HK standarts if we consider how they are created, but yeah, GMS didn't give birth to then in the normal way

[heavy gyro]

Pharlooms void isnt unified

[terse warren]

It's not biological in HK standards because we know of bugs giving birth the "normal" way

[charred nimbus]

That too

[amber bridge]

Do you mean the unified Void from Embrace the Void or Dream no more? Because on both instances the Radiance is screwed by them.

[terse warren]

Yes typo

[manic pewter]

Yeah with radiance it was specific void given focus(?) (form?) (I can never remember) and ig an analogy is smacking someone with a brick of metal vs making it into a spear

[charred nimbus]

I used the microorganism reference to state that even in real life, giving birth is not the only biological way of reproducing....

[terse warren]

They're both unified Void led by TK one is given form and one is given focus

[terse warren]

Yes but in that case the child is an exact clone of the parent, which Lace and Phantom aren't, so the birth can't be biological

[charred nimbus]

You clearly are not understanding my point here, so like, i'll really just move on because this doesn't even matter to the lore of the game LMAO

[terse warren]

It's placing someone on a bed of rusty uneven nails versus pushing someone into the nails by force

[terse warren]

If you think how the real life cloning doesn't matter than real life shouldn't be brought up in the first place

[terse warren]

And also the nails have a personal vendetta against them

[lusty tree]

i think lace and phantom aren't biologically gms's daughters but they are called her daughters because she wove them into existance

[charred nimbus]

I'm just saying that Hollow knight don't follow real life biology on point, and this is just a term exploring

[lethal burrow]

Berenstein bears

[terse warren]

Meh doesn't really make sense to bring up real life at all then

[lethal burrow]

this is still not nearly as bad as the Elden Ring meme family tree

[manic pewter]

At the end of the day, my family tree is not abt biological vs not, its really just abt connections, I have the wisps from wispfire lantern as a foster child of hornet lol

[charred nimbus]

I bought up because i clearly said: "giving birth is not the only way of biologically reproducing" the same follows to HK world, and they can create all the ways they want, so Lace and Phantom could be consider in a technical way her daughers but not being birthed the usual way and not being a clone of then

BUt like i said, this debate isn't going anywhere LMAO

[manic pewter]

this is the whole thing so far (ignore aesthetics)

[lethal burrow]

she had the power to make a giant silk ball wall to stop the void for a little bit

[amber bridge]

I mean if you are planning on continue working on the graph, maybe different lines like dotted or dashed w/ labels would help? Might also help in case ppl mistake Weavers and Lace in the same category by accident

[terse warren]

Unreadable turn up the pixels

[manic pewter]

Yes the program im using the make the basic connections cant do that, im going to fix the aesthetics after, for now its just connections

[lethal burrow]

shouldn't the grimmchild also be the child of grimm

[charred nimbus]

I think they are the same person right?

[manic pewter]

I had it like that but someone told me to change it

[charred nimbus]

Grimmchild should be the child of the nightmare heart too

[lethal burrow]

how can they be in the same room if They're the same person.

[charred nimbus]

Omg, people really can't figure out those things anymore

[charred nimbus]

Grimm is a vessel to the NIghtmare heart, it's HIS CREATION

[lethal burrow]

It's not like this grimmer, will retain the past one's memories

So I don't get saying they're the same person

[charred nimbus]

Honestly there is no way of knowing that since the Grimmchild never grew up or talked in the game

[lethal burrow]

Normally, the assumption is that if something isn't indicated it's not the case

[charred nimbus]

How is not indicated? it's very possible? or the Grimmchild will continue the cult and do his job to the nightmare heart by pure animal instinct?

[lethal burrow]

what has made you think that being intelligent and having the same thoughts and memories as grimm are the same thing

[lusty tree]

was grimm a grimmchild before?

[stray fog]

Probably

[lethal burrow]

presumably yes, as part of a ritual conducted by a prior master of the troop

[heavy gyro]

They cant be the same person because iirc grimmchild can be taken to brumm, and brumm says that theyre away from grimms scarlet eyes

[gritty bluff]

Guys here me out

[lethal burrow]

[gritty bluff]

Ok so you know the person in Royal Waterways

[lusty tree]

which one

[gritty bluff]

And you know the Belflys

[stray fog]

Dung defender?

[gritty bluff]

The one that keeps FUCKING LAUGHING

[gritty bluff]

No

[lusty tree]

ogrim got it

[stray fog]

Eternal

[stray fog]

Eternal whoever

[gritty bluff]

You know the Belflys

[lusty tree]

yeah the exploding bugs

[gritty bluff]

She and those things look the exact same except she is a regular bug and they are her offspring

Think about it

[lethal burrow]

get pics AT LEAST

[lusty tree]

i didn't understand a single word of that sentence

is this guy tweaking?

[stray fog]

This npc?

[charred nimbus]

What being intelligent has to do with this? i'm just saying they need a start up to continue a eternal tradition like that one, and being intelligent doesn't help much with that, but idk either if Grimmchild is Grimm, even maybe the nightmare heart can teach then that when they birth

[lusty tree]

how did the first grimmchild come into existence?

did it have a mind?

[gritty bluff]

Yes

[charred nimbus]

No idea

[charred nimbus]

We only know that Grimm is a vessel to the NIghtmare heart

[stray fog]

Only the skull is a little similar

[gritty bluff]

The eyes

The fucking cloak

[stray fog]

But by that logic there will be so many bugs related to each other

[charred nimbus]

Imo that is just an artist being an artist

It's just the overral art theme of the game

[lusty tree]

theyre barely similar, belfly shells are more elongated while eternal emilita's shell is more rounded

[stray fog]

Yeah

[lethal burrow]

You're the one who made the remark of the alternative to grimmchild being grimm being just having "pure animal instincts"

[charred nimbus]

That was a question to you, i wasn't stating that lol

[gritty bluff]

But what if she made them

[lusty tree]

plus, eternal emilita's shell has four horns while a belfly's shell has three points

[gritty bluff]

What if they’re clones

[stray fog]

We'll need more evidence for something like this

[lethal burrow]

well, then, to answer your question negatives can't be proven.

Which is the entire reason we need evidence for things.

You can't prove there's NOT a teapot flying around the sun right now, for all we know elder bug is also colourblind, etc.

[gritty bluff]

Get me other bugs that look like her

[stray fog]

That's still only 1 evidence

[lusty tree]

1. eternal emilita can't self-destruct
2. eternal emilita can't fly
3. belfly's don't think much often while emilita has a mind

[lethal burrow]

Lots of things are possible, but that did mean they have evidence going for them

[gritty bluff]

But what about her mate

Get me more

[charred nimbus]

People debate about things here all the time without proves, it's just possible that Grimm and Grimmchild are the same person because of the theme that happens with then, the form they are created and the form the cult works, i'm not setting it as a divine truth

[lusty tree]

a lot of bugs look like the belflys, for example shakra

[lethal burrow]

It's nice that you're clarifying that but that's not the accusation?

I'm not asking for proof. I'm asking for evidence, one of them is confirmation the other one is.. something.

[lusty tree]

her shell looks similar to the belflys

[gritty bluff]

Wait a minute

Wait a minute

What if she’s apart of Shakras tribe

[lethal burrow]

WHY would that possibly be the case?

[gritty bluff]

Think about me

[stray fog]

The only other confirmed member of that tribe has a skull that's not like shakra's skull

[gritty bluff]

It not me

[lusty tree]

if she was a part of shakras tribe she would wear their traditional clothes and would have some kind of battle experience

[charred nimbus]

Elderbug is a vessel type of debate right now....

[gritty bluff]

[amber bridge]

I mean if ur expecting meme-y humor responses, this channel is far from it lol

[gritty bluff]

Nah idk at this point

[lusty tree]

instead, emilita hides in her little room

[lethal burrow]

mf be like:

[stray fog]

The coral warrior one is correct though

[charred nimbus]

The karaka one i could believe...

[lusty tree]

yo the last one actually makes sense

[amber bridge]

Coral and last one is actually believable I‘d fall for it

[stray fog]

I mean even their weapons are the same

Its gotta be intentional

[charred nimbus]

Yeah

[lusty tree]

it probably is

[charred nimbus]

It's a different kind of weapon but it's made from the same material it seens

[lethal burrow]

obligatory shakra also part of master hu tribe comment

[lusty tree]

even the helmets are the same it can't be a coincidence

[stray fog]

That one is also plausible

[jaunty moon]

how is the void from pharloom and hallownest connected

[stray fog]

I don't believe it as much as the spirits glade one though

[lethal burrow]

the abyss is a very long place

[charred nimbus]

So we're just ignoring they have similar clothing and some similar attacks and call everyone wrong on thinking similar chars are related?

[lusty tree]

its like the bedrock from minecraft

[lethal burrow]

you can do that if you want, but who is we?

[jaunty moon]

so like is a whole ass system that connects the both places

[lethal burrow]

Pretty much it's very horizontal as far as we know

[stray fog]

Presumably the entire world has void

[charred nimbus]

it's a manner of speaking

[lethal burrow]

like the royal we?

[amber bridge]

Hornet says something to the effect of „if you dig deep enough you‘ll get to the abyss“ which implies that the lower crusts is maybe made of void? Or something to the effect that one layer of hollow knight worldbuilding‘s earth is sort of filled w/ void

[charred nimbus]

i have no idea what that is LMAO

[amber bridge]

might also be metaphorical on her part idk

[jaunty moon]

why does the surface entrence look so similar to the godseeker dream thigamajig

is that just coincedence or just to fuck with us

[manic pewter]

send screenie?

[stray fog]

Maybe their kingdom was on the surface

[jaunty moon]

skong

[stray fog]

You're talking about the land of storms, right?

[stray fog]

Just a coincidence ig

[lusty tree]

nah i don't think its a coincidence

[stray fog]

All the Terrain that we see on the surface is made of these kinda rocks, if that's what you're talking about

[jaunty moon]

it seems to me the same terrain and stuff but that could just be the surface for everywhere

but the terrain formation is also similar

[sinful nimbus]

Its a cave

[twin dragon]

Hornet is hella power hungry

[pale flax]

What on earth is going on with the ending

[twin dragon]

Land of storms might be on the surface that's it

[pale flax]

Why is the knight there in the true ending

[opaque pier]

Aurafarming

[sinful nimbus]

Its saving Hornet

[pale flax]

Yeah I gathered but why

[sinful nimbus]

Cause they chill

[twin dragon]

He's not truly hollow, after all

even though it was pretty clear from the start

[pale flax]

Obviously

[opaque pier]

The knight was just kicking hornet out of their house

[pale flax]

Fumble of the century

[stark halo]

if you're asking why they even went there then presumably the giant cocoon being spun inside the abyss got their attention lol

alternatively mister mushroom gave them a heads up

[opaque pier]

Yeah maybe he just wanted to thank hornet for weakening gms enough so the abyss could eat that giant cocoon

[edgy nebula]

abyss cocoon mukbang

[twin dragon]

He def felt something

Just like hornet can sense gms at the top of the citadel

[opaque pier]

Mmmh silk noodles

[twin dragon]

Esp since they're related and part higher beings

[iron citrus]

How does the Groal control Soul while no one else does in silksong

[twin dragon]

he killed a shaman and took it

He ocassionaly smokes that soul za in the tent

[manic pewter]

Yeah bro slurped that boi

[edgy nebula]

hes the only one who tried

[stark halo]

all the snail shamans control soul, and also silk is an expression of soul

[edgy nebula]

obligatory “groal does not misuse soal”

[iron citrus]

Lmao

[stark halo]

honestly groal's usage of soul does not appear to be very complex, bro is just getting soul indigestion more than casting a spell

[iron citrus]

Fr

[edgy nebula]

he isnt trying to be complex and that’s probably whats saving him ngl

[iron citrus]

Vomiting soul

[edgy nebula]

it’s very beginner, he isnt trying to make himself immortal or use it to fly like a bastard

[twin dragon]

Casual soul user vs comp soul user

[iron citrus]

Imagine groal having ddark 😭

[stray fog]

Snail shamans are the redditors of soul usage

[twin dragon]

Void groal casting void spells

even though void spells are prob a shaman technique

[opaque pier]

Soul is bad for his tummy :(

[edgy nebula]

theyre described as tk fusing their own essence with their spells

[iron citrus]

He deserves it ngl

[stray fog]

Void actually "eats" soul

[opaque pier]

Nooo hes just like a kid who ate crayons on accident hes just a little boy

[twin dragon]

They are

but they can't do that before absorbing the shamans

[iron citrus]

A little boy who lives in Bilewater and has an annoying ass gauntlet

[sinful nimbus]

The Snail Shaman says that the void spells are "unique and expressive" ergo the shamans didn't have them

[edgy nebula]

the shaman’s souls probably expand their power in some way, they dont get abyss shriek from a shaman anyway

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong Shamans also say their power is all of soul

[twin dragon]

Im not saying they invented void spells

[opaque pier]

Its just a playdate

[stray fog]

Yeah what's up with the abyss shriek room anyway