sk-lore

[frank dove]

Where you can clip through cieling and see unused room

[sterile jacinth]

Bellhart has a memory locket I think. Karn just doesn’t have a room

[frank dove]

And person with love key

[sterile jacinth]

I’m still not convinced

[frank dove]

Can I send yt links here?

[toxic mulch]

Bellharts silk soar room has a locket

[sterile jacinth]

Idk

[frank dove]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn340COc8X8

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t see a room?

[frank dove]

And bugs in abyss

[frank dove]

Did you watch the vid or not

[sterile jacinth]

I did but it just looked like ceiling

[frank dove]

The whole vid?

[sterile jacinth]

Oh wait you’re right

[toxic mulch]

Interesting

[sterile jacinth]

Mb

[stark halo]

I think Pharloom is intentionally pretty clear of everything void associated in order for the act 3 twist to be effective, the "black tears" are just spooky effects

even in HK, no eyes has the same black tears but has no apparent link to the void. Usually when there's void specific tears it's very obviously void lol

[toxic mulch]

Could be cut content from when bellhart was a bigger area

[sterile jacinth]

Isn’t that steel soul exclusive

[frank dove]

Do you have this anywhere?

[toxic mulch]

I wish they hadn't done the same thing they did with HK and blurred all the backgrounds so much

[sterile jacinth]

No I’m talking about something else

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe it was hurting readability

[frank dove]

Try using those same hacks to get there as well?

[toxic mulch]

Maybe

[sterile jacinth]

Reddit doesn’t seem to know either huh

[toxic mulch]

There's just so many cool little details in the background like in the first game crossroads has a bunch of bridges and carts in the background that you don't see clearly

[sterile jacinth]

My best guess is that it kind hurt readability and made it hard to track hornet and all the projectiles or enemies

I know there’s mods to remove the blur

[arctic cliff]

Have someone nocliped through this room?

[sterile jacinth]

[frank dove]

🙄

[arctic cliff]

What?

[sterile jacinth]

Don’t be rude

[frank dove]

And the silk soar place in weavenest karn?

[arctic cliff]

No

[frank dove]

Or can you already do that normally and I misunderstood

[arctic cliff]

There’s nothing

[frank dove]

And people have noclipped?

No like have you used hacks to go through it

[sterile jacinth]

It was so disappointed when I found out I couldn’t actually go there

[arctic cliff]

I’m talking about karn

[frank dove]

????

[arctic cliff]

.

[frank dove]

So you can noclip in bellhart, you can't in high halls, and you can't in karn, and people have tried all 3???

[arctic cliff]

What’s in Karn?

I haven’t seen

[frank dove]

top right here

Idk what top left is either

[hard widget]

This pissed me off so much because there absolutely looks like there should be something there

[arctic cliff]

Oh, this place

[frank dove]

O top right looks like it too a little

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah, I had that spot marked on my map and everything

[frank dove]

Wait nvm

Maybe just top left

[arctic cliff]

Cut lifeblood spire, this is where we can find Zylotol’s master

In Pharloom Bay Area

Her lab up there

[frank dove]

Ahhhhhhhhh

There we go

And this is above karn?

[arctic cliff]

No

[sterile jacinth]

Does the four brother fight use the same music as the fourth chorus?

[stray fog]

What's karn

Oh

[arctic cliff]

Pharloom bay was located below bilewater

[hard widget]

What is this image from

[arctic cliff]

Acmi

Area was cut, but still can be seen on the map

[humble peak]

Acmi?

[hard widget]

Oh gotcha

[arctic cliff]

Yes

[hard widget]

It’s the event they did the demo iirc

[stray fog]

Ive looked for acmi videos multiple times on YouTube but all the videos that came up were from the silksanity era

[humble peak]

I see

[stray fog]

Why didn't anyone upload footage

[arctic cliff]

Yep

[humble peak]

four brothers...

[arctic cliff]

Forebrothers

[hard widget]

Team cherry sent a hit squad after everyone who did

[frank dove]

Why is that by moss grotto tho

And what is that place to the left of it

[hard widget]

Wormways and all of the lifeblood in the game is over by moss grotto

[sterile jacinth]

I’m using speech to text I would’ve spelled it right otherwise

[arctic cliff]

On the acmi map, all sub areas located in left lower corner

[hard widget]

Could be like a hive situation where they relocated it

[arctic cliff]

The areas itself is below bilewater

[frank dove]

He just said it was pharloom bay tho

[humble peak]

Zylonol talks about his master discovering Plasmium "in salt waters at the edge of the kingdom"

[frank dove]

Hm so what is the one directly right then

[hard widget]

^^

[frank dove]

And left too

Right looks like pharloom bay too

[arctic cliff]

Salt stricken waters = Pharloom bay

[humble peak]

yeah

[frank dove]

I think it is likely we will get pharloom bay and all this in dlc

[humble peak]

We're definitely getting the bay in DLC
Calling it so hard

[hard widget]

Praying for pharloom bay and city of steel

[frank dove]

It is talked about in game, and so much already made

[stray fog]

An entire kingdom?

[arctic cliff]

Data mined

[hard widget]

Highkey just want to know who the masters are

Silksongs steel soul gave us tons of lore on them

[arctic cliff]

There’s hint to this in the game…

[humble peak]

We're still waiting for Sharpe

[arctic cliff]

His backer didn’t knew his character was cut

And he will contact Team cherry

Hurray

[frank dove]

Didn't he say that a while ago

[stray fog]

What if they added the assassins as a chase scene or as a manhunt type of thing instead of boss fights

Tjat would be much cooler than boss fights

[arctic cliff]

His fiancée said that

[hard widget]

I wonder how we’d even fight a steel being

So far they’re pretty indestructible

[stray fog]

Deploy 50 trillion buzzsaws

[humble peak]

we've only encountered them as NPCs

[frank dove]

Yeah but it was a while ago

[arctic cliff]

No

Week ago

[frank dove]

Those were my favorite part of ori, I agree 100%

[frank dove]

Oh ig the vid I saw was not as old as I thought

[hard widget]

Lore backs my claim up as well

[silk dirge]

apparently theres a broken door in bilewater in this exact area

its 100% dlc

[hard widget]

We could also give em the watcher knight special

[humble peak]

how so?

[frank dove]

NPC are destructible, I remember a specific banker in the first game

[hard widget]

Who would win?

Finely forged assassin with an unbreakable shell

Big rock

[stray fog]

What if we use magnetite

[frank dove]

You have ss?

[stray fog]

Is steel magnetic

[silk dirge]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1oic6nw/fun_fact_there_is_a_broken_door_in_bilewater_that/

[frank dove]

Where is the door

[frank dove]

Reddit blocked for me rn

Could you send ss

[hard widget]

Oh I misinterpreted some of sula’s dialogue excuse me

Just went back and reread it

[frank dove]

I just saw a ss then it dissapeared

[frank dove]

Oh yeah 100000000% dlc

Yep

[snow sonnet]

I feel like Pharloom Bay + Lifeblood Spire will be the first DLC, it's weird that the entrance for bay + the spire were in the august map but not implemented

[hard widget]

Double Nevermind here’s an extract from Jinn talking about herself

[frank dove]

Also considering there was lifeblood dlc in hk too

[hard widget]

Grey Prince Trobbio

[snow sonnet]

Hollow Knight: Silksong: Plasmium

[humble peak]

Idk if we should interpret Jinn saying "My body is tough and durable" to mean "Steel Beings are indestructable"

[frank dove]

💀

[arctic cliff]

Here’s the spire

[frank dove]

Lifeblood creature battle

[hard widget]

True, indestructible is the wrong word. I meant conventional weapons or attacks wouldn’t really work

Like shooting iron man w a pistol

[stray fog]

What if Hornet stabs sharpe's eyes with her needle

[arctic cliff]

He’s void

[hard widget]

I wonder if the steel soul creatures are even organic

[humble peak]

He's probably void

[arctic cliff]

We can’t know for now

[stark halo]

tbf you are allowed to hit zi and while some npcs (kratt) are clearly damaged even if they never die, zi isn't affected by it

[arctic cliff]

He has void nose

Also, steel enemies related to void

[frank dove]

Yet summoning it is bad...

[humble peak]

I think there's strong indication the steel beings are some sort of void constructs
From Sharpe's void nose, to the vassal knowing enough about void to try and summon it...

[arctic cliff]

Jiji, Sula, Summoned Saviour

[humble peak]

Very interested to see where it goes

[stray fog]

"inferior *built*"
Was Jinn also built by someone, or is she talking about how the knight was built to be a vessel

[stark halo]

i agree that steel seers/etc may be artificial void constructs/vessels

[humble peak]

I wouldn't take too much from it, we refer to humanpeople as being "built" as well

[arctic cliff]

We still can’t know for sure

[hard widget]

The existence and use of Summoned savior seems to imply that void can stand against the steel creatures, so they may be opposed to it. However, since void is the most powerul force in the world we know of, it could jsut be the harnessing of its destructive power is effective against everything

[snow sonnet]

We shall make way to the city of steel

In 2070

[frank dove]

Funny how this channel goes from lore speculation to dlc speculation every convo

[hard widget]

Makes sense, we all want to fill in the blanks

[arctic cliff]

Since Sharpe’s backer’s fiancée said what backer didn’t knew about assassins remove, I think steel dlc is likely

[teal drift]

Void seems like the best bet to summon if you wanna fight god

[snow sonnet]

Seeing people constantly cope about getting more of coral in dlc

[stark halo]

my current theory is that the steel faction emerged from the ancient civilization and went from worshipping void to wanting strict control of it + there may be some element of the steel seers etc not even knowing they're internally void, with some parallels to weavers/pharlids

[arctic cliff]

I’m waiting only for bay and steel stuff

[stark halo]

callback to the funny rock

[hard widget]

I completely forgot about the coral area until act 3 tbh

[teal drift]

Yeah unfortunately i think the dlcs will be more lateral expansions than building off things that are already there

[hard widget]

Just like the last game

Dark souls and hollow knight love that type of dlc

[snow sonnet]

Ye I feel like those are like the 2 likely contendors for dlc, kinda hope we get more use of elegy of the deep but other htan that I really got no idea of what they're gonna cook up for dlc

[hard widget]

Is the dlc going to be free?

[stray fog]

People really want a boss rush too

[humble peak]

yeah

[humble peak]

yeah

[teal drift]

I cannot imagine we dont get a bossrush mode

[arctic cliff]

Do you remember npc silhouette from nameless town? He reacts to the Elegy of the Deep

[snow sonnet]

Not confirmed but I feel like it will anyways since it's clear they're in this for the love of the gmae

[hard widget]

True but I want to give them money

[humble peak]

I heard it's already partially implemented in the files? grain of salt though

[hard widget]

Also if it’s paid it’s likely it’ll be bigger

[stray fog]

What 😲

[snow sonnet]

Gift the game to other people or buy the soundtrack etc

[arctic cliff]

His silhouette appears again, but nothing happens

He just reacts to it

But nothing happens

[stray fog]

Does it give the vignette too or is it just the silhouette

[arctic cliff]

What is vignette?

[hard widget]

I’m guessing at least one of the dlc things is going to be at the blasted steps entrance

[humble peak]

Why so?

[hard widget]

Like the pharloom gate we came in from

[stray fog]

The effect that appears on the edges of your screen while you go into a memory

[hard widget]

Just a gut feeling tbh

[teal drift]

Dlc will allow grimm troupe to hang out with the fleas for the ultimate party

[hard widget]

But also if someone’s coming from outside the kingdom that’s where’d they’d logically end up

[arctic cliff]

Yes

Or not

I need to check

[teal drift]

Will sharpe drop his mustache as a blue tool that functions like the wisp took but a mustache?

[stray fog]

😭

[arctic cliff]

YES

[arctic cliff]

Silhouette, vignette and text

[humble peak]

Anyway I think Pharloom Bay (with Lifeblood/Plasmium stuff) is a lock for DLC
And some kind of Godhome equivalent. It's just obvious.
What else, though? No idea. Probably a few new tools here and there, we might see the Grimme Troupe, definitely some new bosses we wouldn't guess.

[arctic cliff]

Everything

[silk dirge]

steel city

[arctic cliff]

But, actually it’s working with every needolin melody

[silk dirge]

this next patch is going to be the last one before dlc unless theres some like game breaking bug i believe

pharloom bay is probably the first

[steep talon]

hm? -source?

[hard widget]

I need pure vessel and NKG level bosses

On an unrelated note, when do we thjnk the first sinner was imprisoned?

If the citadel was built by the weavers to contain GMS, it can’t have been built by them when they were in control, right?

[stray fog]

Can you send a screenshot or recording

[hard widget]

It must’ve been before the revolt

[silk dirge]

someone met team cherry at pax

let me find the post

[steep talon]

almost "my dad works at nintendo" tier, but not quite

[snow sonnet]

https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/1o3rtet/comment/nkfrn67/?context=1

[steep talon]

first sinner was most likely imprisoned by fellow weavers before GMS fell to sleep.

[silk dirge]

this person has a photo with them and ari and also took map photos at acmi

[snow sonnet]

Ye Min's a goat

[steep talon]

damn, nice

[arctic cliff]

I will ping you later

[stray fog]

Are you talking about the place where you get the surface memento?

[steel turret]

City of steel

[cedar skiff]

Oh damn

ots actually gonna be dlc sooner than i thought

[fervent folio]

i like sk

[arctic cliff]

Yes

[bronze turret]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p5A7mQDlLg

WOOOO interview with TROOOOBBIOOOOOOOO

Came out 4 hours ago!

[sinful nimbus]

brneakging news

Powdered you were right they are ancient civilization

[vestal swan]

?

Wait is that the helmet of the one that got killed

[teal drift]

Bro is wearing a lurien hat

[silk dirge]

thats the soul sanctum one right

[sinful nimbus]

its ancient masks 🥹

Yes soul acntu

[silk dirge]

bros got the ancient mask afro

peak hairstyles

[vestal swan]

Sanctum one doesn't confirm this smh

[teal drift]

They killed the shaman with the most drip 😱

[vestal swan]

I thought this was bilewater

[sinful nimbus]

They never killed bell hermit but opk

[teal drift]

Bell hermit >>>>

[unique tangle]

Does that mean the knight dealt 16 masks of damage to the snail when it was absorbed

[vestal swan]

The living shaman collected a ton of skulls too

[teal drift]

Guys is fluke hermit also a secret snail shaman am i cooking here

[unique tangle]

That’s at least 16 masks of HP there

[sinful nimbus]

Powerscalers in shambles

TK could oneshot Hornet if it wanted to

[silk dirge]

instakill mod on

[teal drift]

What if the knight had a gun

[silk dirge]

about that

[vestal swan]

Hornet not getting a glowing ability is a massive L reason #3

[teal drift]

Crazy to think i could annihilate all of hallownest by unloading a gun into it.

[silk dirge]

america would destroy hallownest and pharloom for that sweet abyss oil

im telling you this is the plot of hk 3

shade lord vs america

[fading whale]

Can someone remind me what the actual in game info is on whether or not was born before or after the knight?

[teal drift]

Tbh i really want to fight a yorkie dog as a boss in hk. Itd be massive.

[silk dirge]

its not really known

we dont know what order pk did shit

[fading whale]

Yeah that's what I thought too but I see this sentiment online that hornet is older and it never sat right with me so I wanted to verify

[teal drift]

I remember debating this and people erred on her being older but both being distinctly possible.

[silk dirge]

he couldve chosen dreamers first before doing vessels or picked thk and then gotten dreamers

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is dumber therefore she is clearly the younger sibling

[teal drift]

I like her better as older but its not confirmed really.

[fading whale]

I think it's more likely that she's younger than the first vessels but older than the hollow knight, but we don't know where in between the player character knight lies

[snow sonnet]

Compeltely random thing I thought about: Is it just me or does it feel like there was supposedly something in the middle of this with thsi structure?

[cedar skiff]

well honestly you could argue that because herrah was around for a bit before being sent to eternal sleep that it means that the dreamers were arranged first

[sinful nimbus]

Is this gurr

[snow sonnet]

Feelsl ike there's something to be something there but it's missing

[snow sonnet]

yup his arena

[fading whale]

It makes more sense to me that Herrah and the deepnest weavers would ask for a child in return after it was established that PK is good at making children, aka it would have been known at least to them that he has already made a good number of vessels

[sinful nimbus]

I don't remember him having so much aura

Anyway that's his dinner table

[acoustic sinew]

i have seen a video proving that zoat is from pharloom

[fading whale]

Yeah, here's the thing, that's unprovable

It's a funny theory and if team cherry wanted to they could reasonably make it canon , but as things stand, it's not provable

[bronze turret]

Yeah that never made sense to me either, because it's not logistically sensible to strike a deal of that sort before you actually, you know, making sure you get the appropriate vessel to carry the plan forward.

It's like buying the ingredients for food without buying the kitchenware first

[fading whale]

It makes more sense for both Herrah to have proof of PKs ability to produce kids AND it makes more sense for PK too as you said

And if we assume thk is the youngest vessel then the knight has to be older than hornet

[obsidian kelp]

Haven’t been on this channel in a hot second

[lavish tangle]

Even if we don’t assume THK is the youngest we know THK and the knight are of similar age while hornet probably came after meaning the knight is older (I am agreeing with you)

[unique tangle]

That’s the beastmaster throne

[eternal sigil]

going off of Red Memory chronology it only makes sense for the vessels to be not just older than Hornet, but significantly so

[bronze turret]

I don't even think there's an "older/younger vessel" unless we're saying it in "I was born 2 minutes earlier than you" terms 😂 A single bug can lay dozens of eggs in one go

[lavish tangle]

The biggest difference I can possibly think of is the egg was laid right as THK made it to the top, even then how much younger could that be

[obsidian kelp]

The issue is that herrah asked for a child with the pale king in exchange for being one of the three dreamers so at the point hornet was conceived THK was already in existence

[unique tangle]

You can see a sketch of the beastmaster’s throne; seems like the concept did make it ingame but they don’t do anything with it ig

[lavish tangle]

I am not arguing that hornet is older, I am certain hornet is younger than any vessel

[sudden ginkgo]

Yeah, it doesn't protect

[bronze turret]

Eggs take a while to hatch, so I would guess it was more practical to take the whole batch down the Abyss and wait, and unless there's something wrong with the egg, they all hatch around the same time, matter of seconds to a few minutes between one another (might've also been the reason poor Runt was left behind, hatched last, but still on the same day and not too late after siblings)

[fading whale]

Tbf, we don't know the specifics of vessel creation. From what we see in the birthplace, the egg is laid presumably by the white lady, placed in the abyss, in which it gets infused with void as we see with the voidy tubes attached to the egg. For all we know that process takes a while. We also don't know if it's 1 egg per vessel

[snow sonnet]

Ay that's sick to know, kinda sad that we didn't get a tiny bit more elaboration on it ingame lol

[obsidian kelp]

Fair

[sinful nimbus]

They could've made the dreamers preemptively

[vestal swan]

So it's just a really uncomfortable chair

[lavish tangle]

I meant more so as a steady supply of eggs going down, theoretically the youngest vessel would be thrown down as THK is making its way up, but even then that is less time than it took THK to grow probably

[lavish tangle]

Not really as they were not certain a vessel would even make its way up

[bronze turret]

Ah, I see what you mean.

[sinful nimbus]

Says who

And more importantly who says they couldn't try again

[lavish tangle]

Elaborate, try what again?

[sinful nimbus]

If a vessel doesn't make its way up idk what's stopping them from having more kids

[lavish tangle]

The white lady mentions that a lot of breeding took place, it was not just one batch of eggs

So there was never any certainty a vessel would come out because of they were certain one batch would have sufficed

[sinful nimbus]

She does not say that but also... that defeats the point of what you are saying

[lavish tangle]

She does and that helps my point actually, more eggs necessary means less chance of a vessel coming out of any individual egg

[sinful nimbus]

So

Whether the dreamer came before or after they chose the vessel doesn't actually change the amount of time taken

[lavish tangle]

If the dreamer came before then the pale king just took 3 of the more important people and made them comatose over a “maybe a bug will survive the void that kills everything and make its way up and be judged hollow”

[sinful nimbus]

Who said Herrah became comatose immediately

Hornet was born before that happened

[lavish tangle]

She didn’t, but if she was a dreamer she would eventually

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing prevents Hornet being born, then vessels are born, and THEN Herrah went to sleep

[bronze turret]

We're not saying it prevents, we're saying it feels less plausible than the other way round.

Like I said, buying the ingredientes before buying the kitchenware

[lavish tangle]

If hornet was born first then she would be a full adult by the time the white lady takes her in rather than a person who is still being trained as herrah would not be sleeping yet when she was training with Vespa and hornet would remember her face better

[sinful nimbus]

Its not that weird that PK was banking on the project to succeed and started doing stuff preemptively

[sinful nimbus]

What does this even mean

[lavish tangle]

Hornet did not spend much time with herrah because she had to sleep, if hornet predates the vessels then herrah would not have to sleep so early

[lavish tangle]

This is a better worded explanation my bad

[sinful nimbus]

You're assuming it took a long time for the vessels to be made and then for Herrah to be put to sleep

Which is completely baseless

[bronze turret]

So you're saying you would promise money you don't have before you've even got your hands on it?

[lavish tangle]

We know THK had a full training arc with the pale king

[sinful nimbus]

The entire point is we don't have a definite chronological order much less any time frames

[sudden ginkgo]

@vivid kernel

[sinful nimbus]

You have to remember the vessel project was an all or nothing last ditch effort, basically a last resort

[lavish tangle]

We know THK took a while to train and we know that the infection happened over around one life time

[sinful nimbus]

Ofc he'd be assuming the project would succeed

[bronze turret]

We know that, Pengu, we're just discussing what feels more in line with how things are logistically planned. You don't promise money to a person without making sure you have it, unless you're super irresponsible, what to say about promising someone a child as a bargain that'll put you to sleep permanently

[sinful nimbus]

That's not an apt comparison

The entire thing with the vessels and dreamers was banking on the idea that the project would succeed so it wouldn't matter if PK did stuff preemptively

[lavish tangle]

Herrah would not sleep before THK is trained and chained right? I am confirming if you agree with this point

[sinful nimbus]

We do not know how long it took for THK to train relative to Hornet's childhood and Herrah's lifespan, no.

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[frosty gate]

Wait what's the topic

[sinful nimbus]

If Hornet is older or younger than the vessels

[lavish tangle]

We also know hornet did not spend much time with herrah, not just relative to lifespans but in general as she still remembers Vespa’s face but not herrahs, do you agree

[bronze turret]

Yes it would, he'd be searing a child outside his wedding as a bargain to ensure one of the Dreamers, a bug who is from a land outside his domain, would carry out the plan.

[sudden ginkgo]

It's in paralel, it takes some time to hornet to be born and to be raised, we know herra raised hornet for some time, atleast until hornet begun to understand laungage

[sinful nimbus]

Okay and we don't know how long it took to train PV so ???

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah? Repeating obvious lore doesn't really prove your point

[bronze turret]

So we're just discussing what's more believable, not what's canon. It's not that hard to understand the difference

[sinful nimbus]

He would've done all that under the assumption that the plan would work

[unique tangle]

Yea the real question now is why does Gurr have a throne

[sinful nimbus]

Both options are entirely plausible

[frosty gate]

I mean, most likely younger

[unique tangle]

Did he just build it for himself? Or was he a king of the old Skarr tribes before Karmelita united them

[vestal swan]

Aura farming

[silk dirge]

why is this an argument here 😭

[bronze turret]

One of them sounds more plausible to us than the other, is what we're getting at. Why don't you respect our take?

[silk dirge]

why does it matter who was born first

[lavish tangle]

Ok so if you are agreeing then the last point is that herrah had to go to bed when THK was an adult (which you agreed to) and simultaneously hornet was a child, both of hornet and THK are part pale and have similar lifespans meaning that hornet was younger than THK

[sinful nimbus]

Because its based on nothing

[bronze turret]

And what is yours based on?

[sinful nimbus]

What is my what based on

[silk dirge]

if your going to argue about something argue about something important 😭

[vestal swan]

I think the ant "skin disease" is a visual indicator of an evolution starting

[sinful nimbus]

I never claimed Hornet was younger OR older, I just said there's no reason to believe one over the other

[frosty gate]

Why so?

[vestal swan]

Y'all still on that

[silk dirge]

can we go back to discussing the snail shaman ancient civilization theory

[lavish tangle]

I gave a logically sound conclusion I want your opinion on it please

[sinful nimbus]

Okay sure

What do you think of the USA's tariffs?

[foggy fractal]

😱

[silk dirge]

theyre probably the reason the acmi zine had a shipping cost of 60 dollars

[vestal swan]

They act really differently from normal skar and 2/3 are peaceful and attempted conversation

[silk dirge]

i wanted to get it but 60 dollars shipping is crazy 😭

[foggy fractal]

60 dollars just for shipping ?

[vestal swan]

One of them's a serial killer, with an impressive collection. I think he's the smartest

[sinful nimbus]

THK was grown artificially, vessels don't grow naturally, as they are reanimated corpses

[silk dirge]

its more than double the cost of the actual thing

[foggy fractal]

💔

[vestal swan]

it might be cheaper to catch a flight

[foggy fractal]

lmao nah 😭

[lavish tangle]

Even then growth takes time and we know how long training takes as Hornet remembers Vespa’s training and we can safely assume THK’s training takes about the same time, hornet does not remember herrah which means that THK has to start the training before hornet was born

[silk dirge]

anyways what exactly are ancient masks

[bronze turret]

If that's how you feel about it, then I can respect that, because it's your opinion, but to invalidate our inclination to give our opinion when someone asks for it is unwarranted.

[lavish tangle]

Like the mask shard masks? Or is it something different

[silk dirge]

like are mask shards ancient civilization

would that apply to silksong also

[sinful nimbus]

You don't know how long the magic growth took in comparison to Hornet's growth nor do we know how long Hornet was trained by Vespa in comparison to how long Pure Vessel was trained by The Pale King (These two training sessions are completely unrelated too)

[frosty gate]

I mean I think it's just because of the fact that they're repressed that they're not as aggresive, they don't have any territory to be territorial

[lavish tangle]

I am not even certain they are real

[sinful nimbus]

Opinions are like whether or not you like vanilla icecream. Saying Hornet is younger than the vessels is a statement that needs actual evidence backing it

The good ol "That's just your opinion, man" defence

[lavish tangle]

THK training would logically take longer because of the whole “no mind to think” but even if we assume they took about the same time it would be safe to assume

[humble peak]

"I like ice cream" is a verifiable statement. "Ice cream is good" is an opinion.

[frosty gate]

But it could go both ways, I think the fact that they're not aggresive is a social thing

[sinful nimbus]

What does this even mean, walk me through the logic

[foggy fractal]

if there is a good old then is there a bad young ?

[silk dirge]

anyways doesnt the existence of mask shards confirm the existence of ac in pharloom before act 3

[vestal swan]

That could make sense too, I forgot that they were like literally rejects

[silk dirge]

the item description is like exactly the same so if ancient masks are markers of ac

theres that

[sinful nimbus]

Is there weaver architecture nearby Pharloom ancient masks because if so I think it'd be safe to assume they are Weaver Artefacts like spools

[lavish tangle]

How can you train a being to do sword combat if it cannot think? The pale king thought THK could not think and so training it would have taken longer than Vespa training a born hunter, but I to err on the side of caution we can assume THK’s training took the same time as hornet’s

[silk dirge]

their description doesnt mention anything about weavers

its basically the same as hk description

[vestal swan]

I think the thing holding masks is basically the same as the thing holding spools, but then we also have spools floating in the air so

[sinful nimbus]

A being who can not think cannot learn how to wield a sword or cast spells or follow instructions, so "No mind to think" is clearly figurative rather than literal

[bronze turret]

I was talking about you thinking there's no point in discussing whether hornet is older or not. That's not up for you to decide.

[sinful nimbus]

I never said there was no point in discussing that AFAIK

I'm discussing it right now as a matter of fact

[silk dirge]

ok important thing also silksong mask shards are made from pale ore

[frosty gate]

Yeah, that's why.
They're just trying to live their lives, what I don't understand is why they don't leave
I really wanna know more about them, specially Scout

[lavish tangle]

Why do you believe THK’s training took significantly less time than Vespa training hornet, keeping in mind THK grew attached to the pale king during the training

[bronze turret]

So when you said "I never claimed Hornet was younger OR older, I just said there's no reason to believe one over the other", what did you mean, then?

[sinful nimbus]

I never said that. I am saying we don't have enough information to draw any conclusions

[sinful nimbus]

Both claims lack any evidence and therefore there is no reason to take them seriously

[lavish tangle]

Ok but we do know everything I mentioned and also that the white lady sat next to the crib THK was in for long enough that she left a permanent mark on it

[bronze turret]

Pengu, we know our discussion only exists within the realm of possibility and believability, we're not trying to figure out canon... Lyco just asked for our opinion, that should be hint enough

[silk dirge]

anyways does the snail shaman ac theory mean that the guy in forgotten crossroads is just an idiot

[lavish tangle]

He didn’t even know his cousins died

[silk dirge]

bro thinks his family still alive

whos gonna tell him 😭

[vestal swan]

His branch of the family was uninvolved

[sinful nimbus]

Well if you aren't trying to figure out what's true about the story and lore in a story and lore channel, I'm not really sure why you are all that surprised that I would point that out

[silk dirge]

well then whats up with the soul sanctum one having ancient masks

[frosty gate]

Correction, we are trying to figure out canon, but no statement we make should be taken as the total truth.

[lavish tangle]

If one side is believable and the other isn’t, then the believable side is significantly more likely to be true

[vestal swan]

Fashion, you can find them in places that aren't the abyss btw so?

[sinful nimbus]

They are both equally believable

[lavish tangle]

I have yet to see a single argument in favour of hornet being older, only what ifs

[sinful nimbus]

There is no established chronological order nor do we have definite timeframes to compare

[empty scarab]

What if godseeker mode from hk was a crest (changes the things up right on the screen) and we could get another crest in silksong dlc

[bronze turret]

Yeah I suppose that's how I mostly feel about it, and that's coming from someone who dwelled in the lore side of Dark Souls for a very long time. Filling in the gaps was mostly an exercise of "ok, so, what sounds more believable for the present gap we're trying to fill, here?", if anything. Which is why is I'm I'm feeling rather upset right now.

[sinful nimbus]

There isn't any argument in favour of Hornet being older yes, it seems you are debating against an imaginary argument instead of actually engaging with my messages 🥴

[lavish tangle]

I meant older than the vessels

[sinful nimbus]

"We don't know if Hornet is older/younger than the vessels"
"So you think she's older than the vessels?"

[vestal swan]

Both sides have reasons that would make sense to make one sibling older than the other.
Neither side has anything concrete to deconfirm and make one point solid over the other.
There's no point in continuing the argument because there is no way to tell who is older. There is supporting evidence through speculation for both sides.
It's all "what ifs"
Both
Sides.
The argument can never go anywhere without more information

[frosty gate]

It's a common feeling while debating with Star

[bronze turret]

tell me about it...

[lavish tangle]

We know THK was chained shortly before the dreamers slept, we know hornet was born shortly before herrah went to sleep, we know THK had to train and be artificially grown, we know hornet spent more time with Vespa than with herrah

[sinful nimbus]

No one is against the notion of figuring out which option is more believable, to put it bluntly you made that up

[vestal swan]

Hornet being old as shit does not mean she's older than the siblings, this is not evidence of anything. During the events of hollow Knight TK is considered ancient by things around the peak of the kingdom being also considered ancient

[empty scarab]

Dumbness waring
Hornet was born a little before when the hk was sealed and her mother became a dreamer, so she should be younger than most vessels

[sinful nimbus]

The only thing people have been saying is that both options are equally plausible in lack of any defined or implied chronological order or timeframes

[lavish tangle]

I just gave you an order of events that is confirmed

[empty scarab]

That's what i'm saying

[lavish tangle]

That is what I am arguing for thank you

[sinful nimbus]

Yes now explain why this isnt a plausible timeline

Hornet is born
Vessels are born
Vessel is trained
All the while Hornet is spending time with Herrah
The vessel is sealed and Herrah is put to sleep
Hornet grows up and goes on to train with Vespa

[vestal swan]

[lavish tangle]

Hornet being born first means she gets to spend a lot more time with herrah rather than only remembering her as a child

[bronze turret]

Because there's no point in promising Herrah a child without givign proof that the plan can be carried forward, simple as that.

[frosty gate]

What Asim's trying to say is that no point has been made about Hornet being older than the Vessels

I don't really mind the conversation but if Side A provides proof for why they think Hornet is younger
And Side B just says "It could be both" without giving a point as to why she could be older, then it's not really a debate, it's a conversation with a Wall

[empty scarab]

Ok why would the pale king need dreamers if the vessels aren't born yet

[sinful nimbus]

No because there's no confirmed timeframe

The vessel training going on for an extended period of time relative to Hornet's time with Herrah is made up

[vestal swan]

Hornets older bc he had to secure three dreamers before he can move forward with the plan
That's a solid enough reason

[lavish tangle]

We know hornet did not spent time with herrah as an adult

[vestal swan]

Both sides have equal logical evidence to support one sibling being older but nothing can confirm either side

[sinful nimbus]

And we do not know when she became an adult

[bronze turret]

Yes, we call that a Hitchen's Razor.

[vestal swan]

There's no razors involved here

[empty scarab]

Hornet was with other weavers after herrah was eeping while being a teenager

[brittle cedar]

Hornet is taller so she is the big sister

[empty scarab]

But the hk is taller

[lavish tangle]

We know that she trained with Vespa while that was happening and that herra was sleeping

[bronze turret]

So you're sayinf one side has mroe evidence? Because all I understood from the conversation is that there's not enough from either side

[grand star]

is silk warm or cold?

[sinful nimbus]

We know PK was banking on the fact that the plan would work regardless so like? This doesn't prove any chronological order

[frosty gate]

That's a fair assumption assuming Herrah wasn't the last of them.

I personally think it makes more sense if she's younger, but until we get confirmation it's a no man's land

[empty scarab]

If you put it in cold areas it's cold if you put fire on it it's hot

[vestal swan]

I'm aware, but when usually is somebody brings up a razor they're going to say will the simpler side is the right answer or something like that, when you can equally make up the same amount of evidence for both sides to be valid

That applies to both sides of the conversation and like I said makes no difference in the conversation

[sinful nimbus]

Neither side has evidence therefore we can dismiss both claims

[frosty gate]

There were saws though

[bronze turret]

I'm not alking about Occam's Razor, I'm talking about Hitchen's Razor...

[sinful nimbus]

This is also known as the burden of proof, if you want to make the claim that Hornet is younger you need evidence

Same goes for if she is older

[bronze turret]

Hitchen's Razor is a "god exists" type of theory analysis; there's no solid evidence from either side to prove or disprove it

[vestal swan]

The definition was provided and I was still right neither side has solid evidence it's all speculation meaning the razor does not have any weight on this conversation

Both sides have good speculation points, but neither side has anything solid.
For like the 15th time a conclusion cannot be made

[empty scarab]

Could hornet do the path of pain

[bronze turret]

The razor is just a term to define a certain situation, Weapon...

[sinful nimbus]

Neither side has "good speculation points"

There is literally no information on this topic

[vestal swan]

And it was pointless to bring up because it disproved both sides of the argument

[bronze turret]

Because you don't think they are

[empty scarab]

Ye but it's made for smol guys and hornet wouldn't fit-
If you were answering to me

[sinful nimbus]

No actually I didn't say "They aren't good points because I said so" that's a different sentence

[bronze turret]

So we're not allowed to bring anything into the channel that's considered pointless to discuss?

[sinful nimbus]

Well... claims requiring evidence and/or precedent has been the norm for years yes

[vestal swan]

[frosty gate]

Anyway
First Sinner keeps me awake at night because I don't understand how she fits at all.
She was the First Weaver apparently and was born with her mask broken and she just lived like that???

[fading whale]

It's not a mask, it is the pharlid head that didn't fully close up

[empty scarab]

First to rebel i think
Fits the name

[bronze turret]

I'm sorry, I don't know what this emoji is supposed to mean.

[fading whale]

Like a baby's skull

[vestal swan]

And they booed me for the emote wall

[frosty gate]

I know, but the Journal calls it "A mask"

[bronze turret]

Weapon, please, it was a genuine question.

[vestal swan]

Mask and face is interchangeable it's part of her body

[fading whale]

In the context of widow

[frosty gate]

She's definitely one of the stumps, but not the key.
Second stump is Phantom, fuck i hate Phantom so much

[fading whale]

That too

They are interchangable but not always the same thing that's how I understand it

[vestal swan]

Basically

Styxs room is not full of literal faces

[empty scarab]

What did hornet even get from the pale king
All her moves are from her mother

[fading whale]

There's a mask you're born with, some aren't born with any, and also you can have multiple layers

[fading whale]

Though it's implied he's born faceless since his needolin silhouette has no head at all

[vestal swan]

Phantom is really confusing because at first thought you would think she's a second attempt at making a good daughter but she also seems to have been part of the rebellion so she would be older than Weaver's deciding to rebel right?

[empty scarab]

Is phantom a dude or a girl

[fading whale]

She's part of the rebellion?

[vestal swan]

Needolin doesn't show us solid images, that could just be how he feels about himself

[lavish tangle]

Phantom is like a prototype for lace iirc

[vestal swan]

Phantom and lace are sisters

[fading whale]

I hear that but that is just speculation at this point , since there isn't any instance where a needolin silhouette looks different than what we physically see

[frosty gate]

It could be, but the absolute lack of information about drives me insane.
Or maybe she was just forced to work in the Organ by the Weavers after the rebellion.

I literally don't understand what her part in the rebellion

[fading whale]

I never saw phantom as part of the Weaver's rebellion, I just thought she was punished by gms for being imperfect

Unless I'm missing evidence

[frosty gate]

Phantom should probably be older than Lace, I honestly place Phantom before GMS was trapped and then Lace just as the Haunting started

[frosty gate]

Here's the question, punished with what?

[vestal swan]

It's really weird trying to think about whether phantom was created before or after the lie was figured out, because that would make a big difference about her motivations, but why would she exist before the lie was discovered? Unless she is created after first sinner rebelled but before the other weavers caught on? Phantom was like, a sinner replacement that eventually also figured it out?

[fading whale]

Being cast away in the organ

[pulsar helm]

my question is how long ago that all happened, bc phatom's old and frayed, right?

[hard widget]

Honestly I assumed the silk-spun children were created by GMS after the weavers fled while she was asleep

[frosty gate]

But the Organ is connected to the Underworks, which probably means it was made by architects, and functions as a waste disposal... For the Citadel

[pulsar helm]

interesting, i didn't actually know that they had seen each other, i'm a bit behind on most of the lore

[vestal swan]

Phantom can't be that late though because she got put in charge of the organ which is part of the system to keep her mother asleep

[frosty gate]

And those two things happen After GMS is sealed

[hard widget]

True, but GMS’ motive to create new children comes from the betrayal of the weavers, so she created loyal children. Unless that just applies to lace

[vestal swan]

I think that applies to both of them but phantom either also betrayed her or got captured or something

I look at it as three stages of trying to make the perfect child

[frosty gate]

The Organ is more in charge of keeping things clean right? Not exactly keeping GMS asleep

[frosty gate]

Zza said that, even without proof, it would be cool if Phantom was the first child, failed, then the Weavers, rebelled, then Lace

[hard widget]

It’s a critical part of the citadel which as a whole is designed to keep GMS dreaming

[vestal swan]

Here's one of the possibilities in my head
Weavers - find out, sinner rebels
Phantom made
Lie fully revealed (maybe by the fact that phantom ages? Forcing her to look into things)
Weavers seal up GMS
Phantom is helping the system in one way or another and not her mother

Where the hell does lace go on this timeline

[bronze turret]

After we defeat her, all of the exhaust pipes stop working iirc, so the organ is most likely the main machine that controls all of the place's exhaust system

[frosty gate]

The exhaust pipes of the Organ, not the whole citadel right?

[frosty gate]

Lace is made in the beggining of the Haunting trust

[bronze turret]

I don't recall exactly, but the city does have an exhaust system

[vestal swan]

Citadel vents still function but that's from steam going up

Even in act 3 some of them still spin and shoot steam

[hard widget]

Yeah the citadel vents serve a different purpose than the exhaust vents

[fading whale]

I think both were created after gms started waking. Caretaker says lace was keeping the citadel clean and quiet during its long silence. The long silence is definitely after the normal function and song of the citadel stopped.

I don't think phantom was part of the citadel's original purpose. I think once the citadel fell silent, slowly gms started waking taking over the citadel started haunting the bugs there and sending them on weaver capture duty. At the same time she made phantom, but phantom "failed" her for whatever original purpose gms had for her by being imperfect and thus she put her on garbage duty and created lace

[hard widget]

This is basically my thoughts as well

[frosty gate]

Lace has to be made after the weavers Rebelled, the only chance for that was when the Haunting started
I have no other choice but to hold on this ledge because there's no other point that makes sense

[hard widget]

GMS wants to rule from the citadel after waking

So it makes sense she’d maintain it after everyone already died

[vestal swan]

Yeah this makes me want to say lace was a last ditch effort at an obedient child while getting sealed up or something, or like twiz says, during the start of the haunting. That would still be a long ass time
The start of the haunting would be the long silence

[hard widget]

She’s biding her time collecting weaver remnants before her full awakening

Hornet and lace could be around the same age for all we know

[fading whale]

I think the cradle being the named cradle implies lace and phantom were born there as well

Very well could have been inside the cocoon while gms is slumbering

[vestal swan]

Crazy that lace like, didn't help tho?
You would think if she was born before the haunting or right when she got sealed she would try to help her mother, and that if she did slowly dismantle the citadel someone who infiltrated the citadel would know something about that? But caretaker doesn't seem to know a reason for the music stopping besides GMS waking up which is a backwards cause of events

[bronze turret]

Cradle is also a term to refer to something that's somethign originates, since GMS is the originator

[vestal swan]

Phantom only makes sense pre-sealing though

[fading whale]

Ι don't think so

[hard widget]

Wish we knew how the silk beings were made

[vestal swan]

Why would she be considered abandoned if lace is able to be upkept while her mother is haunting the kingdom

[fading whale]

For me it only makes sense after sealing started to fail and thus gms could start doing things out of bitterness

[vestal swan]

Divine powers

[frosty gate]

Isn't there a dialogue somewhere that said that it stopped because the conductors became negligent and everyone forgot the purpose of the citadel

[feral thistle]

Does the sound of the dispossesed heart beating help her sleep

[fading whale]

Because she was abandoned by gms for not being good enough I guess , whatever GMS's standards are

[vestal swan]

I don't remember the reason the music stopped being said, I totally could have missed that though

[bronze turret]

Yeah this is what I got from the lore as well.

[hard widget]

They started whitewarding everyone and the power went to their heads and everyone got all hedonistic after becoming immortal, and then the silk in their bones sprang to life

[fading whale]

The music stopped because eventually they forgot all the traditions and instructions, the vault keepers hoarded that knowledge and eventually even they didn't know what they were talking about they were just yapping

The architect's software memories started fading

Conductors became corrupted by silk and obsessed with immortality

[bronze turret]

The perversion of faith at its best!

[fading whale]

Gms influence increased and all that lead to the citadel being unable to sustain the song

[slim tree]

I love how tc isnt afraid to rule of cool

Like there should be no reason for an elevator in the citadel to stop at some random floating platform with some white flowers

but its cool asf

[hard widget]

Ironic how they only realized this after taking power

Yeah they’re probably just variants of the shellwood flowers

[slim tree]

yeah exactly lol lace just likes them i guess

[feral thistle]

Maybe lace just likes white flowers idk

[slim tree]

actually lace does hang out right outside shellwood..

maybe thats like lace’s room idk

[feral thistle]

What would be funnier is if she set that stage up specifically to aurafarm before the fight

[frosty gate]

We're not sure if it happened like that

[fading whale]

I think ballador is speaking in hindsight here. Not to mention I bet only the conductors the highest of the high ranks knew about gms even existing. I highly doubt everyone else in the citadel hierarchy knew their faith is pointless and only exists to keep a betrayed god asleep

[slim tree]

oh fuc hornet’s coming i gotta put all the flowers down and sunbathe

[frosty gate]

I mean, surely they did, but who know how it actually happened

[hard widget]

Yeah not exactly like that

[feral thistle]

Pharloom equivalent of cleaning your room right before someone comes over

[unreal estuary]

I'm probably not the first person to bring this up but doesn't this look kind of like a Pharlid Diver?

[slim tree]

no but why does the elevator stop there lmao

[hard widget]

I see it

Don’t think that’s what it is tho

PRAYING they elaborate on it in dlc

[slim tree]

I forgot why was evryone looking int this

this was the general consensus for a while i think cus i also thought this

[sudden ginkgo]

Idk, i prefer sound of ritmic heart

[slim tree]

ugh i wish that we could have gotten more about that cutscene at the end of p5 where pv and hornet interact

[feral thistle]

I mean the statues at the center of cogwork core say something like "Now you may worship at the citadel's heart" or something

[hard widget]

We’re just as likely to get info on that as we are to get more info about the cursed ending- slim chance but not impossible

[slim tree]

ah i see

[feral thistle]

It was probably originally designed for the pilgrims to ascend to the cradle and pray to GMS or smth

[slim tree]

eeh id figure we might actually get alot more about cursed ending in dlc

[feral thistle]

Though this wouldn't make sense if the Weavers wanted to keep her completely secret

[foggy swan]

why do we take contact damage, but not a single enemy?

[slim tree]

I dont think they ever wanted to keep her a secret

Unless im just wrong

Oh i see

[feral thistle]

Hornet is skinny af

[unreal estuary]

See but maybe the door to the other part of the cradle doesn't usually open unless you're bringing in a Weaver. Maybe they just get to pray in front of the flowers

[feral thistle]

Aint nobody taking contact damage from her stickbug ahh

[slim tree]

Ok but surelyher nail would touch enemies when jumping into them

[unreal estuary]

And then the choirbugs who are able to go up would use Terminus, but then it got shut down

[slim tree]

I think that was just a backdoor the weavers and lace usedto get to gms. I just kinda assumed lace opens the door since she also knows how to get up there

[hard widget]

The fact that terminus isn’t reopenable in act 3 pisses me of so fucking much

[feral thistle]

The real reason is that TC wanted us to suffer as much as possible as a subtle nod to the fact that Pharloom sucks

This message was approved by true Hallownest patriots

[unreal estuary]

That would make sense, but then how did all the Weaver cages wind up there? The Choir would need to get there somehow

[hard widget]

Hallownest also sucks but the knight tuff af

[unreal estuary]

And there's no other entrance other than Terminus but the Ventrica can't hold those cages

[slim tree]

I love how pharlooms peak isnt nearly as great as hallownests peak but by dear god hallownests currently state is leagues worse tha pharlooms

[hard widget]

Dead kingdom vs dying kingdom

[slim tree]

Other entrances ig

[slim tree]

I wouldnt even say pharloom is dying just in a bad spot

Its just corrupt

[unreal estuary]

I mean one's a former shrine at the top of a crystal mountain, the other's a hidden path that's been completely sealed off

[hard widget]

The haunting is like a cancer in the kingdom that threatens to swallow it the same way the radiances’ infection did to hallownest

[feral thistle]

Considering we killed all its remaining leaders it might lowk be cooked

[unreal estuary]

Though Mount fay is at a slightly similar elevation and it's almost as good

[hard widget]

Act 3 is self explanatory

[unreal estuary]

as Hallownest's crown

[feral thistle]

Unless the dlc shows us rebuilding all the lost areas

[hard widget]

I don’t think dlc will give us a postgame

[slim tree]

The skarr and shellwood are fine without their leaders but the coral kingdom is wayyy too fucked

[hard widget]

Yeah they’ve been gone for ages

Probably for the best though seeing as they’re an expansionist empire

[sterile jacinth]

I think with taking Kahn’s heart you’re putting him to rest and allowing regrowth like Verdania

[feral thistle]

Wont the shellwood just decay without Nyleth

[frosty gate]

I hate how incoherent this feels

[sterile jacinth]

Probably

[slim tree]

thats actually a really cool hc

[frosty gate]

The DLC's can't come any faster

[unreal estuary]

I mean she's already dead and it seems to be doing fine

[slim tree]

I dont think so i watched a video somewhere i cant recall who or what it was but it was talking about how shellwood would persist even without nyleth as the ecosystem maintains itself fine

[hard widget]

Two years apiece 🥹

[sterile jacinth]

I mean sister splinter is dead now and we do see a Nyleth like flower growing from her corpse

I take it back I think shellwood will probably be fine

[hard widget]

Praying they have a lot of dlc material done already just from cut content or un-implemented ideas , like pharloom bay

[vestal swan]

4years per dlc and there's going to be seven of them, can't wait to tell my grandkids about the upcoming DLC

[slim tree]

Wait really? Never caught this

I hope we get 2026 or 2027 dlc in all seriousness

vespa.. please come back

[hard widget]

Zote boat coming 2100 made by an ai of Ari Gibson and William pellen’s head in a jar

[feral thistle]

If her magic was the source of the wood how does it continue existing without her

In fact where do any of these plants get sunlight

[unreal estuary]

She created the wood, then died and now it's more or less self-sustaining

[hard widget]

All plants come from higher beings or magic in this world iirc

[slim tree]

no clue i think they just survive off nutrients

[feral thistle]

What is that light we see streaming in from above?

[feral thistle]

Is it all just from lumaflies

Cause I dont think the sun exists in this universe

[unreal estuary]

Do Lumaflies even exist in Pharloom? All we see are silkflies

[hard widget]

Crazy that they’re just using souls as lightbulbs

[slim tree]

yeah thats what they meant

[hard widget]

I wonder how many moths hallownest has in lamps and just don’t realize

[unreal estuary]

But also there's a lot of weird light sources in both games that have no explanation so I think it's really just a process of 'dont think about it' sadly

[feral thistle]

Moss grotto is bright as hell but when you go further above it gets darker

Maybe bug vision works differently I dunno

[vestal swan]

Yeah both of these games has a ton of those, you're not going to find the source of light for most of the areas

[unreal estuary]

Maybe every plant source in the HollowVerse is bioluminescent or something

[vestal swan]

You're right that is crackpot

[frosty gate]

I give up for today, The Citadel's timeline itself is so crazy, I haven't even had the chance to think about the rest of this fucking Kingdom

[vestal swan]

Probably

[frosty gate]

Maybe

[unreal estuary]

When you get to the wormways it's cramped so its dark and then Greymoor and everything like it is so choked up with smog and pollution so its all dark and the Deep Docks' only light source is Lava so its dark and the Marrow is the same but everything else has natural plant light

I mean probably

[frosty gate]

There's Citadel paraphernalia, so probably Weavers

[unreal estuary]

Either that or the Citadel bugs just did something on their own while the Weavers were still there

But like if they fought with the Brood bugs then it makes sense they would have made them prison guards

[frosty gate]

I doubt the Bugs could do shit to Weavers

[unreal estuary]

Not to them, but like they made the slab while the weavers were in control

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah I mean, had to be, but I doubt it was on their own

[unreal estuary]

The only problem is that it had to be built during the GMS era because First Sinner was imprisoned for fighting against GMS so it had to be before she was put to sleep

[hard widget]

I’d say a couple dozen citadel troops could

[frosty gate]

Actually now that I think of it, who even makes those decrees?

[sterile jacinth]

It could have been built around her

[unreal estuary]

Though maybe they moved her or built the slab around her

[unreal estuary]

Probably the Conductors or something

[hard widget]

This is the most likely imo

[frosty gate]

Conductos + Slab is never mentioned in any moment in the game

Which is weird

[unreal estuary]

True

[frosty gate]

Who even put those dudes there

[slim tree]

Wait a minute

[unreal estuary]

That seems to be the timeline yeah, or that those two things happened one after another but with a large period of time in between

[slim tree]

Why is first sinner called the first sinner if the whole idea of religion in pharloom was made by the weavers

[unreal estuary]

Because when they imprisoned her they likely created the idea of sinning in response

[hard widget]

The weavers while loyal worshipped grand mother silk

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah it’s assumed the other weavers imprisoned her

[hard widget]

I think all of the burial spire weavers mimic the first sinner

[sterile jacinth]

I think she’s mad guys

[bronze turret]

Yeah that's something I don't think people talk often, the Burial Spires. But, I think they were buried afterwards rather than before putting her into slumber, unless... those may have been the Weavers that fell trying to put her into slumber (provided that resistance happened)

[frosty gate]

Theory says FS told the other Weavers none of them were divine, which angered them

I don't like it honestly

[slim tree]

ok but the weavers are lowkey like divine

[unreal estuary]

Those were the weavers that didn't get out, the ones who stayed behind to watch the bugs of Pharloom and make sure they didn't stop the song

[sterile jacinth]

In a way. They’re not actually gods but they were told they were

[unreal estuary]

And told the other bugs to treat them that way

[slim tree]

their whole existence was that they were super mega evolved from normal bugs

[bronze turret]

Ah, figures

[lavish apex]

Guys lets be fair there is only ONE gif to explain the lore

[sterile jacinth]

Imagine being told you were a god your whole life only to learn that you used to be a pest

[slim tree]

They’re otherwise impossible superbugs and have special super powers

[hard widget]

The weavers are charizards in a world of charmanders. Grand mother silk is arceus.

[bronze turret]

Good analogy, really!

[hard widget]

Idk if Hornet or Eva is mewtwo

[unreal estuary]

Eva

[slim tree]

I wouldnt say this though because that would mean the pharlids would eventually become weavers

[sterile jacinth]

So not confuse them for gods tho. They’re more powerful than regular bugs for sure but they aren’t gods nor are they divine but rather their power comes from divinity

[hard widget]

They don’t have the silk stone to evolve

Is that how that works I’ve never played Pokémon

[bronze turret]

I was confused for a second

[slim tree]

you could probably compare them to being like a mega charizard

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s more like comparing the weavers to the legendary beasts. A step above regular Pokémon but not arceus

[slim tree]

yeah this

like they’re legendarys but not like reality shifting legendarys

[bronze turret]

Yeah pretty much. Goes along the line of "every god is a deity, but not every deity is a god", kinda

[sterile jacinth]

I guess. Their power comes from divinity rather than being divine themselves

[bronze turret]

Could be loosely compared to pantheons with hirerarchies, with Weavers being just below their leading god.

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. Her children

[bronze turret]

Or so they were told

[sterile jacinth]

Exactly

[bronze turret]

Can you imagine being born under the assumption your mother loves you and then find out she only created you to live vicariously through you, grooming you into participating of beauty pageants and pretending it's all for the fun of it, until one day you tell her "I don't want to" and she flips on you?

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah gms sucks lol

[hard widget]

Yeah, I’ve seen honey boo boo

[sterile jacinth]

No wonder phantom and lace rebelled as well

[gaunt elbow]

What's the lore behind hornet staggering at the start of the game and the start of act 3?

[sterile jacinth]

Hurt 😔

[hard widget]

Act 3 is void exposure I think, act 1 is her being weak from her bindings

Probably trying to walk off broken ankles as well

[pulsar helm]

Cool, actually, but at the same time, poor phantom, poor lace

[spark valve]

gms was crushing her to death before lace interrupted she's injured

[hard widget]

Oh yeah that

[gaunt elbow]

Ahh ok I was surprised void exposure would hurt but it kinda makes sense since she never actually steps foot in the abyss in hk, only hangs out by the entrance

[hard widget]

She also refuses to go into the black egg to help the knight since the black egg would drain her

[spark valve]

she goes to abyss in act 3 and spends more time there closer to void it's not void exposure

[stray viper]

yall so im confused, do people know how similar widow and first sinner are? idk if im js straight up dumb but i think they could be the same person

[unreal estuary]

I mean Act 3 is probably also falling from a great height and being surounded by falling rocks

[hard widget]

They’re not the same person, they’re just both weavers

[sterile jacinth]

They’re not. They do parallel each other though

[hard widget]

They both do go BRAUUURRUUGUHH a lot tho

[spark valve]

first sinner:
in the cage
tied up
dead
widow:
not in the cage
not tied up
alive

they also have different limbs and bodies etc

[unreal estuary]

I think there's at least some connection between the two, mostly because Widow is named Widow and is obsessed with GMS and First Sinner is wearing what could be perceived as a bridal gown and hates GMS. Maybe Widow started to obsess over GMS when her partner was imprisoned

Completely unfounded theory but I like it

[sterile jacinth]

First sinner was the first to find out gms lied and widow betrayed her sisters by allying with gms

[spark valve]

they are sisters

[stray viper]

oh that makes sense actually

[unreal estuary]

Yeah that does throw a slight wrench into things

[gaunt elbow]

Weavers are all sisters so..

[sterile jacinth]

Doomed yuri if true

[spark valve]

and that manner of dress is just how weavers dressed at a point you can see it in the needolin memory

[stray viper]

?

[hard widget]

Everything to do with the weavers is doomed yuri including the main quest

[gaunt elbow]

So that's a weird theory

[stray viper]

how r weavers sisters?

[unreal estuary]

I forgot that that would be weavecest

[bronze turret]

Which led me to think the Black Egg was prospected from the Abyss itself. Can you imagine having to move that thing all the way up to the surface?

[unreal estuary]

They're all related because they're all created by GMS

They call each other "sister, spider"

[sterile jacinth]

Fair enough

[hard widget]

Mossbag has an interesting theory that it’s solid void, but at the very least it contains void inside of it to sustain the hollow knight

[unreal estuary]

In secret as well

[hard widget]

The poor team of stags that had to drag it from hidden station to dirtmouth must’ve been beat afterwards

[bronze turret]

I totally forgot that bit RIP to the bugs who were assigned to do it, damn

[grand star]

act 3 could also just be from being weakened after the GMS fight

[bronze turret]

I guess we know why there are no more stags left /j

[hard widget]

I think it was made on site though, they probably just closed off the area

[grand star]

although you do get the opportunity to bind GMS a few times before using needolin

[unreal estuary]

I mean almost definitely, the egg wouldn't fit through the mouth of the bug it's housed in

[bronze turret]

Well, after they finally got to the spot, they defintialy had no way to hide!

https://tenor.com/view/stag-hollow-knight-bug-stagway-im-here-gif-25215254

[stray viper]

the thing is, why is first sinner in a cage then and called first sinner? what was her sin? in the dialogue she says "...She called us daughters... Called us divine... She lied..."

[unreal estuary]

Apostasy, she fought against GMS and was the first to be imprisoned for a crime

[spark valve]

she proclaimed a group which was posturing as divine as not being divine

[bronze turret]

Apostasy, it's in her door's sentence

[spark valve]

it wasn't gms

[sterile jacinth]

Heresy (I think)
All the weavers at that point thought gms was their mother and instead of accepting what first sinner said they imprisoned her

Apostasy then

Idk the difference lol mb

[spark valve]

the tablet identifies it primarily as apostasy

[slim tree]

What do you do when ur watching a yt video and the guy explaining lore doesn’t know batshit

[bronze turret]

Heresy is when you commit an act against a faith, Apostasy is when you abandon that faith, to put simply

[silk dirge]

click off

[stray viper]

oh ok that makes some sense, thx for clearing it up!

[slim tree]

what I’m about to do

[unreal estuary]

I really hope that there's no Stag Eater somewhere like the Bell Eater

[sterile jacinth]

I’ll try to remember that

[slim tree]

Correct me if I’m wrong but the citadel was who destroyed lost verdania, the skarr, bile water, and the coral areas right

[sterile jacinth]

That and or gms

[unreal estuary]

Basically, but the Skarrs were never destroyed

[slim tree]

and the weavers were made because gms wanted followers/family right

[unreal estuary]

Yeah

[sterile jacinth]

Same with lace and phantom

[slim tree]

yeah no this video is saying that gms was at fault for all of that which doesn’t even make sense and that the weavers were made to help her fight them

[unreal estuary]

and Phantom, yeah

[sterile jacinth]

Why doesn’t it make sense?

[slim tree]

wasn’t it said the bilewater and coral areas turning into what they are now was because of the citadel?

and afaik the citadel was made by the weavers to contain gms

[unreal estuary]

Coral could honestly be either one, whichever one killed Khann, but yeah Bilewater was the Citadel polluting the area

[sterile jacinth]

Implied. I think it was both gms and the citadel that ruined them. I doubt gms wanted a huge army right next to her. I also think the citadel was built as a trap but gms didn’t know that and thought it was dedicated to her

[slim tree]

Why is silksong timeline so hard

[wraith otter]

I have a question, are little weavers even canon? If so what are they? They can't be baby weavers cause all weavers are female

[unreal estuary]

Having gone through an entire discussion on this a few weeks ago, I can say this: They're either just small Weavers or we have literally no clue

[sterile jacinth]

I’ve heard that they’re weavers that reverted to a more simplistic form

Yea it’s unclear if it’s a retcon situation or weird weaver magic or not

[wraith otter]

If so Then why not return to pharlids

[slim tree]

wait what are u guys talking about

[unreal estuary]

the little weavers from Deepnest

[sterile jacinth]

Retcon or no fucking clue I dunno

[slim tree]

can u send a picture of them

I’m blanking rn

[unreal estuary]

yeah hang on a sec

[wraith otter]

Yeah probably retcon cause most of the weaver stuff in hollow knight doesn't make sense in ss

[unreal estuary]

This guy

We need a Silksong ama atp to help answer some of these random questions

[wraith otter]

True

[slim tree]

infection made them revert to their primal form ig

[unreal estuary]

But then why get small? No weaver is that small

[slim tree]

like how the infection usually makes bugs grow and become more monstrous it had to go back to how it used to be so it could become gross

[sinful nimbus]

Infection doesn't physically alter bugs to a more primal form

What's funny is that Little Weavers didn't use soul infused silk in HK either so they never made sense

SS just cranked that up to 11

[unreal estuary]

Silk didn't even exist in Deepnest lore

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers using soul infused silk has been a thing since the Grimm Troupe

[unreal estuary]

And we never see other weavers walk on webs, even in highly webbed areas

[sinful nimbus]

Spider tribe erasure

Worlds most irrelevant group \🥀

[unreal estuary]

Why are those Stalkers so Devout?

We shall never know

Could be

But only one of the spiders looks like something that isn't a Weaver (I forget its name but the wall guys that spit infection) and then if the Devouts are spiders then I guess those guys too, but everything else is a Dirtcarver or Corpse Creeper

So Team Cherry honestly probably forgot they ever had other spiders that weren't Weavers

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’d make sense to have other spider creatures and only the pharlids were elevated

Some pharlids I should say

[silk dirge]

werent weavers originally going to be called like

spider mages

[unreal estuary]

yeah

[silk dirge]

they were a cut hk enemy

[unreal estuary]

yeah

[silk dirge]

weavers in hk vs weavers in silksong is so funny

[sterile jacinth]

Glow up I think

[silk dirge]

weavers in hk: secretive magic spider group

weavers in silksong: magic spider group that also has extremely advanced technology, destroyed a bunch of civilizations, built a kingdom, trapped the god that made them, etc...

[sterile jacinth]

If they’re extremely secretive it makes sense why we don’t know that in hk lol

Yeah we imprisoned our god mother and were partially responsible for the extinction of several races no biggie

[unreal estuary]

Gotta love how the sire is considered to be of an honoured caste when we know nothing about them while Herrah is only a 'common beast' given that Weavers are directly descended from a god

[sterile jacinth]

Also they are in hiding

[lilac hedge]

they just kind of visitors in deepnest

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers had aura in HK

[unreal estuary]

WAIT!!! 'dead sire' and 'sealed mother' implies that Herrah had children prior to meeting the Pale King, and overcame the Weaver Curse twice

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers now are all lame frauds who had everything handed to them on a silver plate by GMS

[unreal estuary]

So like what's the deal there

[foggy fractal]

which group is not lame but instead awesome sauce ?

[sinful nimbus]

Craws

[unreal estuary]

Had their own government right under the Citadel's nose the entire time

[sterile jacinth]

Weavers had some children as evidenced by the lore tablets in the cradle but obviously they couldn’t reproduce with other weavers

[sinful nimbus]

The Pinstress caws btw she's definitely a craw https://flame-shadow.tumblr.com/post/798648263441104896

my flour is bereft of purpose

🔁 fly-sky-high-bug-games

so i found out that pinstress sings her boss theme, strive, when you play the needolin around her, and (sound on!)

-# #omg #i love her sm #pinstress #silksong

▶ Play video

Tumblr · Oct 28, 2025, 11:18 AM

[unreal estuary]

Well but regardless Weaver pregnancy is said to be an almost deadly, incredibly painful task

I think Hornet talks to Eva about it

[sterile jacinth]

Ough. Explains why there were so few of them

[foggy fractal]

what if we get a crawmother in silksong dlc would that be hype ?

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe gms didnt want competition

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[unreal estuary]

She didn't think they'd stop thinking about her long enough to want children

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe the infertility was a redundancy

Or unintentional I dunno

[unreal estuary]

Maybe

Also they're literal stick figures, I can't imagine it's easy to have a baby with proportions that small

[sterile jacinth]

True

[unreal estuary]

Side effect of being lengthened Pharlids I guess

GMS just pulled them up without thinking about how that would affect their body

[sterile jacinth]

Gms wanting to be the e only important thing in their life makes sense for her character

[unreal estuary]

yeah

[silk dirge]

i wonder how higher being whatsapp looks like

like what does gms think of pk

do they even know each other

[hard widget]

Toxic as hell I imagine

[silk dirge]

unn would be that one guy who rarely talks

[unreal estuary]

Radiance and Pale King getting in daily fights and making GMS and Unn choose who's better

[silk dirge]

shed be the journalist who got access to the signal group chat earlier this year

[twin dragon]

so strive is officially pintresses' theme now

[silk dirge]

yeah

the amount of diegetic themes in silksong is wild

hk had like none

really emphasizing silksong

[foggy fractal]

say that again

[unreal estuary]

I love the way she floats around with her little cloak thing or just falls asleep when stunned

[silk dirge]

i just wish her fight was better

[twin dragon]

I love that she's a very goofy character but also wants to literally get stabbed to death in a fight

[unreal estuary]

Continuing the Xero trend by being a boss you can just leave for a little bit

[silk dirge]

i mean gurr got a minor improvement so pinstress might in dlc

[marsh wagon]

why

[unreal estuary]

when did Gurr get an improvement?

[marsh wagon]

her sister is better

[silk dirge]

last night beta release

#hk-announcements

[unreal estuary]

oh cool

[marsh wagon]

actually i lie she isnt

[silk dirge]

its not officially in the game but you can try it out

[twin dragon]

Nah fym, i rlly liked the boss

It's very fun and in character for her

[foggy fractal]

she had like 3 attacks though

[twin dragon]

She's dartin and spinning around

closest we get to silksong pvp

[foggy fractal]

her x slash, the melee combo and pin throw

[twin dragon]

So does last judge

the boss doesn't have to be overly complicated for it to be good

[marsh wagon]

pintress boss fight is so annyoing

[silk dirge]

pinstress is such a fraud how the fuck do you have a robot built in your image be better than you

[unreal estuary]

Literally none of the pinstresses seem to have died to the Choruses

[foggy fractal]

and if its too simple it turns stale and doesn't feel natrual

[unreal estuary]

the only dead one we find was killed by the Putrified Ducts

[silk dirge]

i mean second sentinel

[unreal estuary]

Seamstress stopped the Chorus all by herself

[unreal estuary]

Oh

well then yeah no that's fair

[viscid ridge]

It might be a glitch on my end, but it seems like the Envoys dont have needolin dialogue anymore. Any time i try to reveal their silk strings, it doesn't work. This might have some greater implications considering they are the bugs that were able to travel so far to capture Hornet

[twin dragon]

Her movement prevents that, though i do agree that she can spend a lot of time throwing knives

[viscid ridge]

I remember them having needolin dialogue when the game released, but apparently not anymore

[unreal estuary]

That's the biggest issue for me, I love the fight but she's always just out of reach of my needle

[silk dirge]

is this the beta patch

anyways regardless that seems like a bug send that to the big report form

[unreal estuary]

Seamstress is like all three nailmasters combined into one

[sterile jacinth]

She gets a depression arc and Hornet knocks her out of it

[twin dragon]

Meh, we dont know if seamstress created it, she has the skill to make it

[sterile jacinth]

I do wish she’d stay still

[unreal estuary]

Like she's in a similar position to Mato and gives her teachings eagerly like Mato, she's as secluded as Oro (and as depressed) and doesn't want you there like Sheo

[viscid ridge]

Im not aware of anything the patch says, i just randomly stumbled apon it, ive tried it multiple times, with multiple different ones in other locations. All the bugs around them start singing, but they do not. Does this mean that they aren't haunted? Which would be weird considering their hunter notes

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah fair enough. She’s just about as unpredictable as Shakra

[silk dirge]

that seems like a bug

https://teamcherry.notion.site/12c63da3a1a780f4a8cfd8441a243a6e

[viscid ridge]

Honestly, i know the fight isn't for everyone, but Pinstress fight rocks

[unreal estuary]

The Shakra fight is so fun, I skipped it my first playthrough because I thought I could come back and then I got to Act 3 and was very disappointed, I'm so glad I made sure to do the fight on my second playthrough

[viscid ridge]

She goes back to her tent doesn't she?

[sterile jacinth]

I like to imagine Hornet seeing her asleep in the mountain and just sighs in disappointment

[sterile jacinth]

She kicked my ass

[unreal estuary]

Oh she kicked mine several times

Even still it's just so cool

Garmond and Zaza's fight was fun too, but it was incredibly easy, Shakra put up a real fight

[viscid ridge]

I kinda remember her just going back, but to be fair that was when the game initially released, so i might have hallucinated it up

[unreal estuary]

I'm pretty sure she goes back too

[sterile jacinth]

I remember her going back to sleep after the fight is over

[unreal estuary]

She doesn't kill herself either way

[sterile jacinth]

Idk where you got that but no she doesn’t Hornet convinces her not to

[unreal estuary]

that's what I said

[sterile jacinth]

Who said that lol

[unreal estuary]

huh

nobody

[sterile jacinth]

Who said she killed herself

Oh ok

[viscid ridge]

Nobody 🤣 you made that up

[unreal estuary]

is she still on Mount Fay or nah?

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, i think i imagined it 😦

[viscid ridge]

I dont think so

[sterile jacinth]

Oh oops misread something then

[unreal estuary]

I never went back after defeating her so I don't know

[sterile jacinth]

I want to see someone fight pinstresses while doing the laquer quest

Omg another one are you kidding me

[unreal estuary]

Wasn't Pillby killed by the collapse of the pilgrim's rest?

[sterile jacinth]

@vestal swan

Thank you

[silk dirge]

penance by message deletion

[unreal estuary]

absolution not granted

Wait he leaves? I never saw him do that

damn I missed a lot

[silk dirge]

i hope in dlc we get to see the pilgrim spawnpoint

where are these mfs coming from

[sterile jacinth]

Was there another scammer??

I was gone 30 seconds

[silk dirge]

i didnt see

[vestal swan]

Brightvein?

[silk dirge]

the center of mount fay