sk-lore

[silk dirge]

would you drink the forbidden soup

[twin dragon]

That's what the civilazations got high on without getting shredded from the inside out

[vestal swan]

Also when completely defeated we see collector return to a base liquid

[elfin shard]

yum

[foggy fractal]

nah I'd die if I drink that

[silk dirge]

bro is not gargant gloom coded

[humble peak]

but I think "void given form" might be the key here
the tendrils are a more dense, focused (but not Focused) bit of void, and it seems to be the form it takes more often
But with the flower, that Formed form of the void is repelled, leaving just this thinner black soup

[twin dragon]

It is also completely reasonable to think that void darts could be whatever the void consumed/sunk into it before

[vestal swan]

I think something somewhere in this game said that the void can choose it's base form

I don't remember where tho

So the ones that look like sharp Shadow and the ones that look like snakes are just the void deciding to be wiggly

[lavish tangle]

Idk if I buy the void darts in ss being the same thing as the tendrils in hk, in ss they are clearly things that exist within the liquid while in hk they are the actual liquid itself

[twin dragon]

In the skong hunter journal

It says it choses the form of sharp tendrils due to its oppressive nature

[lavish tangle]

Actually I am fairly certain the journal agrees with you

[twin dragon]

That's literally what it implies

[lavish tangle]

I misread “it says” as “I think” idk how

[twin dragon]

Though the knight slashing the tendrils away confuses me still

As nothing comes back running to fuck up hornet after that

[silk dirge]

i think its just tk aura farming

[lavish tangle]

2 wills clashing?? But the will was united? The void doesn’t have a will only the vessels do because pale boy

[twin dragon]

Under someone's will can be interpreted as rule

[humble peak]

You really think they're distinct? We see the same tendrils in SS and they're repelled when we have the flower. Void isn't able to focus into the form of a tendril, the form of anything, under its light. It's rendered inert. When we dive into the lake we're surrounded by inert void while the rest of it swarms around the bubble of safety, sometimes lashing in at the juicy soul within before being repelled.

[twin dragon]

The knight could rule the void, not completely manipulate it

[lavish tangle]

We know the void can see and learn, before it tried attacking with the flower being there, then it learned to wait

[snow sonnet]

Rule of cool tbh, I really don't see it ruining voidheart's description tbh

[twin dragon]

It's smart enough to whisper to the lightkeeper guy in the abyss aswell

[silk dirge]

honestly you know i would be fine with a shade lord boss fight if its like hornet challenging tk to a friendly duel

it would be a funny as fuck scenario

[twin dragon]

So we know that the knight has authority over the void, not complete control

If that's the case

Because knight already knows ball

[silk dirge]

bc like who doesnt want to see a shade lore fight for the fun of it

[lavish tangle]

The flower didn’t do jack in hk other than in the cutscene, the tendrils didn’t care there

[twin dragon]

Plus in dnm the hollow knight's shade has zero reason to pop up

[humble peak]

tbf we don't necessarily know this
we only see things for a short moment. It could have been lashing and being repelled beforehand and when the flower broke, there being nothing to repel it anymore, it obviously went in all at once

[silk dirge]

itd be a fucking epic fight if it can be fit into lore without fucking more shit up

[twin dragon]

if the knight had complete control

[lavish tangle]

Why did it not go in all at once before?

[humble peak]

I don't think it means anything. They just hadn't decided the flower repelled the void at that point yet

[twin dragon]

Doubt the knight would do that as it would fuck up hornet

[snow sonnet]

Exploring coral gorge would've been fun but look at how that turned out >:/

[lavish tangle]

Could have changed it without breaking anything

[humble peak]

repelled by the flower

[elfin shard]

i think the knight literally just has a more powerful will than the void lake so it can just tell the void to sit tf down

[humble peak]

I'm not sure I understand

[lavish tangle]

When the flower repels we see a bright white light

[twin dragon]

that's having authority yeah

[silk dirge]

tk could go easy on her

[twin dragon]

He doesn't think with the void, but the void listens

[twin dragon]

nah it's just the nature of the void in general

i'd get somewhere and start digging

[humble peak]

I mean she handles the void-strung bugs and tendrils in the abyss well enough

[twin dragon]

I guess

but would bro risk?

[silk dirge]

like tk could probably figure out how to not harm hornet

[humble peak]

i think we're just getting into pointless speculation at this point

[lavish tangle]

I am proposing that every individual dart creature thingy is it’s own will with its own everything, so when the knight completely destroys a few the others stop and stay away for safety

[silk dirge]

tk is just a chill dude

[twin dragon]

revert back to base form and slash her ass

[vivid kernel]

why did the void attack hornet before the knight appears to hornet? If the knight is the lord of shades, why is the void destroying pharloom what does he have to gain from it

[twin dragon]

void being void

void kill

[lavish tangle]

The void isn’t a shade??

[humble peak]

Yeah it throws a hole in our previous understanding

[snow sonnet]

Easy solution si for the shade lord fight to be in the elegy of deep
How you get in ig you can get creative about it

[silk dirge]

the best explanation is tk needs to focus to control the void

[twin dragon]

It really doesn't, it's always been a force of nature that consumed everything it could

[silk dirge]

when hornet is not in the void its not unified

[vivid kernel]

oh

[opaque pier]

Did the knight help hornet just because or did he do it because she drained enough silk from gms to make her weak enough so they void could consume her

[humble peak]

We previously believed that all the void everywhere everywhere was now united as a singular will under TK
But obviously it isn't quite that universal

[lavish tangle]

The reason the hearts were needed was because you had to go to a far memory, but if you want to go to a recent memory maybe you can just elegy yourself

[humble peak]

siblings help siblings

[twin dragon]

I mean dnm contradicts that sort of

[silk dirge]

i mean you would probably need to focus to assert that will

[opaque pier]

I mean idk broken vessel wasnt that helpful ngl

[twin dragon]

Because the hollow knight's shade seems to act on its own

[elfin shard]

prolly just cus she was in terouble

[twin dragon]

and it has zero reason to

[lavish tangle]

It was infected

[humble peak]

BV was an animated corpse
I mean technically they all are but BV had a different puppetmaster

[elfin shard]

we know that masks can cover up an entirely different identity

[humble peak]

how so?

[twin dragon]

Sure, but shades are still part of the void

[opaque pier]

Sounds like a skill issue to me, thk was also infected and at least he had the decency to try to kill himself 👀

[twin dragon]

.

[lavish tangle]

I would want to help kill the person who was controlling my mind and destroyed what my father (who I love very much) spent his entire life building

[humble peak]

voidheart shows siblings made passive, but other void beings which have had will imprinted on them still act the same

[lavish tangle]

Bigger brain on that dude, he had an emotion

[twin dragon]

If the void thinks with the knight, that wouldn't happen

And tbf if the knight could control the void, he'd be able to do crazier shit

[humble peak]

THK had will imprinted on it, it wasn't under TKs dominion

[elfin shard]

it only seems to act out of self-preservation, it senses the knight nearby and attacks it because at that point, the knight is considered a kinda foreign individual. once it gets the voidheart, the shade recognizes the knight as harmless and embraces its presence

[silk dirge]

i think of it this way the void in pharloom is acting however it wants bc tk isnt actively controlling it

[humble peak]

While we see shades still form but respect us, the void tendrils completely cease to form

[twin dragon]

Im making an argument against the voidheart giving total control over the void thingies

[silk dirge]

the real issue is the slashing the void thats weird

[twin dragon]

And in favour of the void basically acknowledging tk as its ruler

[elfin shard]

i think the voidheart just makes it so the void recognizes the knight as one of its own

[silk dirge]

but otherwise everything is fine

[twin dragon]

I mean that's one way to make the void recognize you

[silk dirge]

tk isnt going to be telling void everywhere to calm down

[humble peak]

tbh
It's pretty vague and ambiguous
And I like that. Love just being able to chew on it and wonder how these forces work.

[silk dirge]

yeah

[twin dragon]

ANd i dont think the knight can supress the void's nature

[sterile canopy]

nah i dont think so, it says it unites the void, which would make sense as it would take a lot of power to kill the radiance

[elfin shard]

i dont think the void recognizes the knight as a void being because even the knight doesn't really know its void until it gets the memory back from the birthplace

[twin dragon]

Yeah, unites under TK's guidance, the void was on its own before

The 5767th voidheart discussion in the wrong channel

[silk dirge]

i mean the way it works to me is kinda analogous to a human body if you arent actively controlling your arm it swings around until you control it

same with void

[lavish tangle]

The slashing void was never part pale, it does not have a will, it is purely running off instinct
With void heart the knight is recognized in hallownest as the be all end all void thing so the tendrils don’t attack them, in pharloom the void doesn’t recognize it so it ignores it. The only “will of the void” is that of the other vessels, beings that are half wyrm, and the wyrm supposedly was able to give bugs wills of their own, so even if it couldn’t give the void a will the vessels are still bugs at the end of the day and they were affected

[silk dirge]

just on a much larger scale

[sterile canopy]

i just got here so maybe i fumbled but i just meant it does more than let other void recognize tk as void

[twin dragon]

It follows him

[humble peak]

We also don't control our internal processes, reflexes, etc

[silk dirge]

yeah

[sterile canopy]

?

[elfin shard]

so basically voidheart unites the siblings and maybe the void within hallownest, but not the void on a global scale?

[twin dragon]

The void listens to the knight

[lavish tangle]

The void on a larger scale doesn’t have a will to unite

[twin dragon]

That wouldn't make sense as it states to unify ALL of the void

Plus, nothing else attacks hornet after TK shows up

[charred nimbus]

Omg, that's the same debate as last night

[lavish tangle]

Void sees attack = death, void stops attack

[sterile canopy]

doesnt it just say void

[twin dragon]

It uses the tendrils to lift hornet and lace aswell

But those MIGHT be TK's tendrils but they're too many and too long in that one shot

[charred nimbus]

I think those are their tendrils tho

[elfin shard]

i think the most consisitent and easiest explanation is just that the void has a instinctive will on its own, but with the knight uniting at least part of it (the siblings), it can overpower the simple instinct of the overall void

[lavish tangle]

That is the knight’s back tendrils or wtvr you wanna call em

[upbeat star]

Knightencales

[twin dragon]

that's what im arguing in favor of

[elfin shard]

and basically pull a targeted i guess "section" of void under its own will as the shade lord

[charred nimbus]

The knight does have plenty of tendrils and they can get pretty long if you check dream no more ending

[lavish tangle]

Hk makes it clear that instinct is not a will

[twin dragon]

Like the knight basically makes the void submissive to him

[humble peak]

I do like the idea that TK just didn't have the time to assert control over the tendrils coming at Hornet in SotV, so it had to smack them so they'd fuck off in the moment before being able to generally pacify it in the moments after

[elfin shard]

ok then it doesnt have will but it has instinct

[sterile canopy]

i think the most interesting outcome would be that instead of it being like other vessels where void was combined with thought and living the knight was pure as it gave void a will of its own, thus being mindless but still having a mind in some way

[lavish tangle]

We are not disagreeing about the big things, but you are arguing submission and I am arguing self preservation

NOOOO

[elfin shard]

LMFAO

[twin dragon]

Fuck

[silk dirge]

WHAT

[humble peak]

What happened lol

[lavish tangle]

What why is that allowed

[twin dragon]

Im saying how that word was ruined by a certain group of ppl

[humble peak]

What was said??

[twin dragon]

the goo word

[sterile canopy]

i was aboutta say the same thing before dyno dropped in

[sterile canopy]

oh what

[lavish tangle]

Ah

[humble peak]

Omg

[charred nimbus]

...

[sterile canopy]

i thought it was submissive

[lavish tangle]

Evil henchmen

[silk dirge]

the only time i got a message autodeleted was when i mispelled mt fay

[sterile canopy]

idk wtf is going on

[elfin shard]

💀

[upbeat star]

Please nuke this channel

[frosty gate]

Wait, how does that make sense though? Did she just live like that for a while or was she born like that and inmidately thrown into the cage?

Isn't it weird or am i missing something?

[charred nimbus]

That would be the day the world gets a nobel prize

[vestal swan]

She just always had a misformed head? We are talking about first sinner right?

[lavish tangle]

Born like that, a while later she says grand mother silk is not really their mom, goes to jail for it

[humble peak]

I've had huge messages deleted because I misspelt "pale" with a k instead of an l
Which is apparently some obscure slur lol

[sterile canopy]

man this chat is nuts in comparison to rw’s lore channel so much stuff happening so fast

[vestal swan]

It's not like anybody took a wine bottle upside her head

[upbeat star]

Unlike widow

[charred nimbus]

I mean, rain world channel is kinda more organized...

[elfin shard]

are the weavers only able to breed with other races?

[frosty gate]

Yes. So the Weavers just accepted the Firstborn had a broken head?

[lavish tangle]

The weavers are all females, so yes

[elfin shard]

or are they able to have pure-bred offspring

[humble peak]

Well there aren't any male weavers as far as we know

[sterile canopy]

its more mellow

[lavish tangle]

We don’t know if the first sinnner was the first born, we know she is part of the first generation who were made directly by gms

[silk dirge]

first sinner likely is the first ever weaver

[sterile canopy]

the extra popularity is nice for consistent chats but at a certain point its just so many messages so fast

[humble peak]

All weavers are first gen

[spark valve]

Every full weaver is the first generation

[vestal swan]

it's not broken?

[lavish tangle]

Yes that is true

[upbeat star]

First sinner just implies that she was the first to be deemed a problem in the citadels eyes

[silk dirge]

like fs journal entry says she is an "ancient weaver"

[lavish tangle]

Yes like any first gen weaver

Herrah is an ancient weaver

[silk dirge]

but then why have that adjective there

[humble peak]

Sounds cool

[silk dirge]

it seems like its saying she specifically is older than other weavers

[spark valve]

FS is also a historical figure who died a long time ago

[lavish tangle]

The only other weaver we see is the widow

[silk dirge]

hornet also asks if fs was the first to weave runes

everything lines up with her being the first ever weaver

[spark valve]

Nothing remotely indicates that to be the case

[silk dirge]

the broken head could be bc she was a "prototype"

[lavish tangle]

The first human to use tools is not the same as the first human

[silk dirge]

also game files arent to be trusted but they do call her that

[vestal swan]

Nothing burger statement, files don't mean anything

[silk dirge]

i mean it doesnt really mean anything if first sinner is the first weaver or not

i just think its a cool thing that could be true

[vestal swan]

That also doesn't really matter correct, I agree also. The cutscene gave me that vibe tbh

[sinful nimbus]

First Sinner isn't the first weaver, Atla is

[lavish tangle]

Here is a question, we see one weaver in hollow knight, now my memory might be bad but why are they so much shorter than all the others we see

[silk dirge]

you will never guess who atla is

[idle sequoia]

Maybe because it was a younger one

[lavish tangle]

But all the weavers were the same age (approximately) as herrah

[humble peak]

dwarfism....

[idle sequoia]

Imdont think there's anything that confirms that

[lavish tangle]

But that is a genetic defect, the weavers were made directly by gms

[idle sequoia]

That I remember anyways

[silk dirge]

i mean all weavers are around the same age but gms probably created them at different days

[lavish tangle]

Weavers cannot breed properly, they were all made by gms, herrah is a weaver

[vestal swan]

There's a theory that different weavers might have been made from different source bugs, this is mostly used to explain why Herra is so different, but it could work for the short weavers too

But again it's just a theory, we don't have anything suggesting multiple species got raised

[silk dirge]

idt she elevated them all at once

[vestal swan]

Besides herras head

[idle sequoia]

What's to say some weren't born just from other high beings

Or maybe that one was just crawling

[silk dirge]

i think that theory works best at explaining first sinner as an elevated pharlid and all others as elevated pharlid divers

[teal drift]

First sinner is simply the first weaver with balls

[idle sequoia]

Like how hornet crawls when she has that one pin

[lavish tangle]

I say herrah looks like that because fat and maskless like widow

[idle sequoia]

Fat shaming

[vestal swan]

Widow was mutilated that is not her natural shape

[idle sequoia]

Cancel that man

[lavish tangle]

Shaming??? Never said it was bad, you are the one shaming

[teal drift]

Maybe herrah was wearing a hyper realistic fatsuit for her slumber

[idle sequoia]

I was joking kiddo my bad

[lavish tangle]

Nah I understand I was trying to continue it

[teal drift]

Herrah simply is wearing the corpses of her enemies to go to sleep forever

[vestal swan]

All weavers are GMS raised creatures

[teal drift]

Blasphemy

Constraining you for life

[idle sequoia]

What's to say that one wasn't made differently

[lavish tangle]

Widows mutilation is her mask was removed and metal spikes attached to her body for no silk, I am saying herrah removed her mask to put on the dreamer mask, and are a lot because she was royalty

[vestal swan]

They could totally be made differently that's something we suggested earlier but just not by another God

[idle sequoia]

Didn't the weavers experiment to make more weavers

[humble peak]

she could just put on another mask tho right

[lavish tangle]

That was Eva, an attempt at making a god

[vestal swan]

They experimented to make all kinds of things

[teal drift]

The weavers had trouble breeding and also tried to make acnew god

[idle sequoia]

So it could b3 a younger one, relatively speaking as I said before

[humble peak]

many things indicate you can wear multiple masks

[lavish tangle]

Wouldn’t be a weaver mask head thingy

[idle sequoia]

Eva wasn't the only one tho, just the one we are aware of.

[vestal swan]

Red memory makes it seem like that is her head shape though

[teal drift]

What would herrah look like with the bobblehead

[humble peak]

tbh though
the idea of Herrah removing her mask so she could put on the Dreamer one is
not crazy

[idle sequoia]

When hurrah left the kingdom who knows how many time she gave head in attempt for another weaver baby

[lavish tangle]

The weavers heads look like that, the masks are what is round and bulbous

[vestal swan]

That's part of their body though

[lavish tangle]

Like look at widow that is the correct head shape for a weaver

[humble peak]

the mask shit is just super confusing

[vestal swan]

The thing that grows around sinners face is part of her body

[lavish tangle]

No it’s a mask it’s part of their personality not body

[spark valve]

Go watch the first sinner cutscene

[idle sequoia]

Can we just agree that corinifiers wife has a juicy dump truck

[humble peak]

I don't think it's impossible for something to be a mask and part of your body

[silk dirge]

hornet is a good example of this

[vestal swan]

Face and mask is an interchangeable term within the universe, you could rip off that face like they did to widow and replace it with something else, it's just not going to come off easy and it's part of her body

[lavish tangle]

Masks can be removed, look at both mask makers

[spark valve]

Mask and face are used as synonyms or at least metonyms

[humble peak]

elaborate?

[silk dirge]

and its not going to be comfortable

[teal drift]

Different buts have different relationships to masks

[lavish tangle]

It is not, most bugs have masks but not all

[humble peak]

what is a metonym?

[idle sequoia]

Different butts?

[silk dirge]

hornet has a clear mask but under it her head is the same shape

we see hornet maskless in weaver queen

[vestal swan]

The game literally shows that grow it's part of their body, there's no argument against this

[humble peak]

we do? hold on

[spark valve]

It’s like calling business people suits, using a related term in place of another

[silk dirge]

i mean it looks like it to me

[lavish tangle]

Explain mask maker

[silk dirge]

its how hornet looks in a death cocoon also

[sinful nimbus]

Mask Maker is talking about crests/identity

[vestal swan]

Mask maker makes masks for people who want to change identities or don't have a mask already?

People who don't want to be who they are basically

[spark valve]

Mask maker could not more obviously be speaking figuratively

[lavish tangle]

So you can take the mask off?

[vestal swan]

Are you just refusing to read or what

[lavish tangle]

He is literally painting a mask as you are talking to him

[silk dirge]

no way mask maker is a big trans ally

[lavish tangle]

I am reading well enough, if you want to change who you are by putting on a different mask, you gotta take off the old one

[vivid kernel]

What old one?

[humble peak]

I'm not seeing it

[vivid kernel]

He makes masks for ppl without masks

[silk dirge]

good thing trans bugs in pharloom have different options other than whiteward hrt

[vestal swan]

And I'm telling you that not every mask is just a mask that can be taken on and off, people use mask and face as the same term. Weavers heads are not masks you can just take off

[spark valve]

It’s just lighting here

[vestal swan]

Widow's face was peeled off

[silk dirge]

i would personally not take the whiteward estrogen but others may differ

[lavish tangle]

The slave guy who gives you silkeaters has like 5 masks that in act 3 you can see with needolin dialogue of essentially “who should I be”

[vestal swan]

Yes, masks can change personalities apparently

That is unrelated to the weavers heads being biological parts of them

[humble peak]

To conceal a face is a powerful thing

[sinful nimbus]

While magic masks exist they are not ALL masks nor are they a necessity

[vestal swan]

Why is this such a hard concept to understand why have I had this conversation like seven times

[silk dirge]

probably bc its a confusing concept

[lavish tangle]

Never said it was an easy procedure or painless, but the big sphere is not the actual head its a mask, they can live without it (torture)

[silk dirge]

yeah but its like if i ripped off your face

[vestal swan]

It's their head it's part of their body

That's like saying if I peel your face off your face is not part of your head

And it never was

[lavish tangle]

How do you explain widow being alive

[silk dirge]

you can live after having your face peeled off

[vestal swan]

[humble peak]

you can survive without your face
technically

[sinful nimbus]

You don't need it to live but it IS a part of their bodies

[silk dirge]

its just not comfortable

[lavish tangle]

If you rip off my face I die, if you remove my head I die

[silk dirge]

you will be in constant pain

[spark valve]

Oh so you accept it’s part of their body

[lavish tangle]

No

[spark valve]

The face is part of the head

[humble peak]

the weaver's "mask" doesn't seem to be quite as deeply connected to their bodies as our own faces
But it definitely is part of their bodies, in some capacity

[silk dirge]

yeah

[vestal swan]

You can't say no to this we literally see it grow on her body

[spark valve]

You literally just did

[sinful nimbus]

What did Powdered mean by this

[foggy fractal]

gonna do some 1 on 1 testing ig

[vestal swan]

Asim is not a weaver

The useless comment does not apply

[foggy fractal]

yeah yeah we shouldn't use real life logic anyways

[lavish tangle]

We know even the “base” bugs have masks via hk

[silk dirge]

if we were using real life logic america wouldve invaded the abyss

[spark valve]

Y’all it’s possible to get injured and not instantly die

[lavish tangle]

Widow has been at it for how long?

[humble peak]

I mean do consider they're bugs with exoskeletons
Removing a "mask" is probably similar to removing one's fingernails or such

but like
a lot more

[vestal swan]

There is not a single bug that is not part of the main plot that can be confirmed to have a mask besides the mask maker himself

[lavish tangle]

Gimme a second I will come back to you on that

[vestal swan]

And Brunm

You will come back empty-handed

[silk dirge]

also i think widow might just be masochistic and enjoy pain as long as shes dedicated to gms

[vestal swan]

I think despite it being her literal face peeling it off destroyed part of her identity and make her easier to manipulate

[foggy fractal]

hey sorry but what do people argue when they bring up widow mask anyways

[silk dirge]

like shes so fanatically obsessed with gms she doesnt care about other shit that happens to her

[foggy fractal]

like the first thing they bring up before using widow mask has supporting evidence

[vestal swan]

Some people think the fluffy part is her natural face, some people think that the hot dog shaped head is the only part of her that's biological, and I don't have enough brain power to remember the other ones

[foggy fractal]

I see

me neither apparently

[silk dirge]

i do wonder if you looked inside first sinners head would you see the same shape as widow

probably i would imagine

[lavish tangle]

The entire mantis tribe

[humble peak]

oh
Phantom wears a mask

[sinful nimbus]

They don't wear masks?

[vestal swan]

The topic was specifically the first game but yes phantom wears a mask

[lavish tangle]

Essentially any bug whose head is a different material and colour than their body

[vestal swan]

That's not accurate in the slightest

[humble peak]

who is head

[foggy fractal]

what

[vestal swan]

Tk, hornet, zote, elderbug

None of them have masks

[stray trench]

Hai

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe Quirrel wears two masks

[lavish tangle]

Elder bug definitely has a mask what

[foggy fractal]

he's wearing ancient masks and has like 7 masks

[vestal swan]

No he does not?

[humble peak]

Quirrel can't tell if TK is wearing a mask or not
Showing how hard they are to tell apart

[foggy fractal]

source ?

[humble peak]

And ofc there's the Mask Maker dialogue

referring to the Shade as "the face that hides beneath" and to its own unmasked face as potentially just another mask.

[lavish tangle]

BEHOLD: maskless individual

[vestal swan]

Yeah that's not a mask

[humble peak]

It's impossible to tell

[foggy fractal]

also is confirmed ? and its not like mantis lords are the only mantises

[spark valve]

The mask maker dialogue which is obviously figurative and explicitly equates masks and faces but hollow knight fans cannot read

[lavish tangle]

That is so clearly a mask it is essentially the same as the the mask maker wears

[sterile jacinth]

Masks can probably be both biological and not

[humble peak]

I mean he is literally making masks
and masks are shown to have some kind of power in the world

[lavish tangle]

This is the only bug whose mask you can take off so we know masks are a thing that is distinct from a face

[sterile jacinth]

I think the mask makers masks bugs can get if they want a complete change of identity

[spark valve]

Exhibit A

[lavish tangle]

That implies very few bugs, but the ss mask maker says his job is very important implying many bugs

[humble peak]

isn't it laquer?

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. We don’t really know everything rn unfortunately

[humble peak]

"pale glaze" sounds like people praising PK lol

[lavish tangle]

If his job is very important to the point that we should stop talking to him so he can focus, that implies many bugs were masks

[humble peak]

oh wild

[sterile jacinth]

I imagine the mask makers are a bit of urban legends. Like you go there only in dire circumstances

[lavish tangle]

To add to this the pale king is referred to as “white wyrm” in ss but I am fairly certain you already discussed this

[sterile jacinth]

I’m not sure. But him being so out of the way poses some problems for regular bugs trying to find him

[humble peak]

"pale" is an adjective describing a light colour i think

[lavish tangle]

They are found in hard to get to places so I assumed they gave the masks out every few years or smthn

[humble peak]

maybe they have delivery boys

we know the couriers do stuff for them

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe. No one else seems to reference them except the delivery bugs

[vestal swan]

• Mask can = face and the reverse
  It is frequently used both ways in the second game
• The Weaver's heads are part of their bodies because we see it grow around one in the origin cutscene
• Yes that is technically a mask by the way they use the word
• It is part of their body
• it is their face
• Yes you can rip it off if you're a sadistic asshole
• Maybe some bugs change it with surgery or other methods who knows
• some just might not have something that qualifies as a hard shell mask and are applying a new one easier
• Not everybody is wearing a mask
  -It's next to impossible to find a character that is actually wearing a mask
• Here's the list
  HK: monomon Quirrel Lurien Herra Brumm Divine Mask Maker and maybe God seeker, her metamorphosis is weird
  Silksong: Phantom Styx (I might have missed some)

[lavish tangle]

If the delivery bugs know about them surely others do too

[sterile jacinth]

Could be. Somehow I doubt it though. I don’t know. Might be taboo to change one’s mask or something

This is speculation I don’t know

[vestal swan]

The delivery bugs might actually deliver some masks to customers considering how much work it goes into each one they might be special order

What are we talking about coldness?

[silk dirge]

tipp and pill are like insanely knowledgeable

like im kinda curious how they know all their customers and shit

[visual glacier]

They can lowkey fly

Also you find pill in sinners road

[silk dirge]

also how did the vaultkeeper send the gramophone

[lavish tangle]

Ok so we agree that herrah has a mask on in hk? So that means that she could have a weaver esque head beforehand? So she took off her mask to put on the dreamer mask. The rest of the discussion does not matter as hk mask maker makes it clear that it is hard to tell the difference between mask and face

[silk dirge]

bro had 1 day shipping to frey

[vestal swan]

Maybe they're just really good to their customers and not like the average shitty delivery person we know today

[silk dirge]

real

[spark valve]

The mask maker dialogue is about the beacon

[sinful nimbus]

I love cardinius 🗣️

[silk dirge]

same

how did he send the gramophone tho

did like tipp or pill just fly up and grab it real quick

[vestal swan]

Probably

[lavish tangle]

The gramophone is not fragile, probably used the ventrica and bell beast

[silk dirge]

idt anyone but hornet is using those

[sinful nimbus]

Based on lore/character

[vestal swan]

We know she wears a dreamer mask that fits her head but the red memory has her with the weird head shape and it doesn't make sense for her to be wearing the dreamer mask already

[lavish tangle]

The memory has the mask over laid on her head

[visual glacier]

W ragebait

[midnight zinc]

What is this ranking based on?

[sinful nimbus]

Based on lore/character

[vestal swan]

What?

[silk dirge]

who did the voices for tipp and pill

[midnight zinc]

Yeah but what is it ranking?

[foggy fractal]

where would I rank on this

[silk dirge]

s++++

[foggy fractal]

how much star likes their lore/writing/character

[sinful nimbus]

Above caretaker

[foggy fractal]

yes

[cedar skiff]

caretaker in s

[silk dirge]

andy is the side character of this channel whos better than any of the main characters lol

[cedar skiff]

exceptional ragebait

[sinful nimbus]

How is that bait 💔

[lavish tangle]

In the memory, herrah has the mask being half see through on top of the red garment, and the memory takes place where we see herrah later doing her dreamer job

[midnight zinc]

Oh that explains why it’s ass

[visual glacier]

Mort above lace and hornet and garmond didn’t give it away?

[cedar skiff]

oh no i think star just really doesnt like hornet

[silk dirge]

the hater™

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is an awful person (unintentionally so), for a story relevant character Lace has nothing going on, and Garmond is the most useless character in the entire game and his ending is quite possibly the most unsatisfying character ending of all time

[vestal swan]

Pretty sure that's not the dreamer bed and I don't understand what you mean about the mask being see-through?

[lavish tangle]

You can see the six eyed dreamer mask

Lemme grab a picture

[silk dirge]

bell beast hate cant be tolerated tho 💔

[spark valve]

Can’t even generously say garmond is killed for shock value since you don’t really see him that much to have any reason to care

[cedar skiff]

if that’s actually based on objective writing some of these are ridiculous

[silk dirge]

god forbid we have a cute dog as our mount

[cedar skiff]

but preference yeah whatever.

[midnight zinc]

When I’m in a bad Silksong take competition and my opponent is Star 💔

[sinful nimbus]

Mort is in B tier because for a side character he's fine and gives some worldbuilding on how Pilgrims view rosaries

[silk dirge]

less lore than stag whatever idc i love my bell doggo

[spark valve]

The tier list for what characters somebody likes is obviously meant to be objective and taking it as such is definitely not incredibly stupid

[cedar skiff]

if i had a nickel for every time tc put a dog esque creature in silksong id have 2

[silk dirge]

whats the other one

[vestal swan]

What is the successful path of garmonds questline? I fucked up the having him help me with the mooewing and then I basically never saw him in a interactable spot till he died

[sterile jacinth]

Which ones? The roaches?

[cedar skiff]

the fleas

[silk dirge]

fucking muckroaches?

[sinful nimbus]

Zaza doesn't even get closure dawg 💔

[silk dirge]

oh good

[sinful nimbus]

His best friend dies and for what

[silk dirge]

fleas and bell beast are good

[cedar skiff]

also i mean the roaches?? so i guess that makes 3???

[vestal swan]

That is weird but I'm going to just call that a fuzzy memory, that's also not the dreamer bed?

[silk dirge]

fuck muckroaches

[sterile jacinth]

Mostly you just run into him a few more times and you can fight him and then he hangs out in songclaive

[midnight zinc]

Zaza is S tier because he’s named after my favorite way to spend free time

[vestal swan]

Fry's dog moment

[lavish tangle]

You are right why did I think that was the dreamer bed???

[sinful nimbus]

Blah blah don't you have a void analysis to write 🥱

[lavish tangle]

My bad

[cedar skiff]

garmond turning into garmond.exe in act 3 would have worked better for me if we explored his character more like with shakra

[silk dirge]

so called "exhausted pilgrim fan" does not have said exhausted pilgrim on her tierlist

[midnight zinc]

I have school and a job actually, but eventually yes I’ll get around to that

[cedar skiff]

i really did not care as much as i wish i had

[sinful nimbus]

I'm pretty sure the only reason we are expected to care about Garmond & Zaza at all is because they were in promo material

[cedar skiff]

oh were they

[sinful nimbus]

Like how they expect you to care about Pilby because he's in the spot Elderbug was

[sterile jacinth]

I honestly thought his character was good for what we got but I agree I would have liked to run into him more

[cedar skiff]

i cared more about grindle

[spark valve]

It would’ve been so easy to just tuck his hometown away somewhere so you can see it and have some reason to give a fuck about his quest

[sterile jacinth]

Honestly I love grindle he’s a little blorbo but I love Garamond too

[silk dirge]

grindle fr talks like a freshman in pe 💔

[cedar skiff]

tbh i dont thinj theres a direct elderbug stand in seeing as theres 3 relevant towns

[sinful nimbus]

Caretaker is the only good one

[lavish tangle]

There is a fight you can miss and they help you out in that god awful 10 wave arena

[vestal swan]

I thought his hometown was supposed to be BellHart and I was very confused when he was not happy we saved it

[cedar skiff]

ehh like

not really??

[midnight zinc]

Caretaker is a snooze fest of a character, he’s like Elderbug but he isn’t unintentionally funny. The only interesting thing about him is the Act 3 twist

[sinful nimbus]

Pavo has nothing interesting to say

[sterile jacinth]

I thought him valiantly fighting until he couldn’t anymore fit his heroic characterization well

[cedar skiff]

i guess you could argue for both pavo and caretaker But see that’s the thing

[lavish tangle]

The old lady you meet first is supposed to be the elder bug stand in

[cedar skiff]

theres no one singe relevant town you return to

[sinful nimbus]

Caretaker says some cool things about the world around him

[vestal swan]

Pavo has decent observant towns person dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

Which is more than what can be said for Elderbug

[cedar skiff]

caretaker is a bum

[lavish tangle]

Bellheart because the house and a lot of quests start there

[cedar skiff]

actually hes goated for the dialogue where he confirms lace is a child

i cant thank him enough for that

[foggy fractal]

so is he a goat or a bum

[sinful nimbus]

Is this the curse of MHWilds where they decided to have many towns but never fleshed out any of them so you just end up not caring about anything

Maybe Wilds DLC will end up destroying them all like Silksong too

[spark valve]

ahtal ka trampling kunafa

[lethal burrow]

Summoning mystic spells, are we

[cedar skiff]

except i do care about bellhart

[lavish tangle]

The ss towns are fleshed out but there are multiple shops instead of one big one like in hk

[cedar skiff]

and honestly songclave is less of a town anyway

[sinful nimbus]

Sly was infinitely better than FREY

[cedar skiff]

and the other one gets fucking nuked

[spark valve]

the ss towns aren't even fleshed out

[sinful nimbus]

Like Frey has no depth at all

[lavish tangle]

They move to a different place

[cedar skiff]

dude i dont like how much act 3 nukes things i didnt even get to care about yet sorry

[sinful nimbus]

Sly had a humorous character and a fleshed out view on the world tied nicely together with a twist reveal

[lethal burrow]

They flushed out more than dirt mouth

[silk dirge]

me when i walk up to a cashier at safeway and tell them they have no lore depth

[spark valve]

act 3 making you do chores to try to make you care about the choregivers

[vestal swan]

Frey?

[sinful nimbus]

Exactly

[lavish tangle]

Ok see you got to act 3 quickly it took me 60 hours to beat act 3 for the first time so I was actually devastated by the loss

[sinful nimbus]

No one even knows who frey is because she's so forgettable 💔

[lavish tangle]

Idk half their names I just describe them

[vestal swan]

I have actual memory problems they're just undiagnosed at this point but I cannot remember the name of 90% of these fucking characters they just did not stick with me

[spark valve]

salubra actually like has a personality

[cedar skiff]

plinneys cool

[lethal burrow]

• looks in lore channel

• sees people not actually talking about the lore and just complaining again

[cedar skiff]

and so are the couriers

[sinful nimbus]

That's because they're all random human names like Mort, Eva and Benjin 💔

[cedar skiff]

it did take me a while on my initial playthrough

[foggy fractal]

Mort 🗣️

[vestal swan]

Benji from hit indie game hollow knights server ???

[foggy fractal]

maybe

[silk dirge]

i mean salubra is a weird case bc her silksong equivalent is more eva than any shopkeeper lol

[vestal swan]

Eva was actually interesting so I remembered her name

[lavish tangle]

Mort is the most important character because he is death

[sinful nimbus]

I hold a grudge against this man because for some godforsaken reason it is MANDATORY to upgrade your needle in order to reach Act 3 and I didn't know that when I went into a no needle upgrades playthrough

[lavish tangle]

Wait it is???

[sinful nimbus]

Also the Nailsmith had a more interesting and memorable ending

[spark valve]

see your mistake was wanting to do an interesting playthrough

[lavish tangle]

Pliny kinda goes to a grave, he has lore it’s just “lover died” again

[foggy fractal]

just do challenges on specific bosses 😔 whole game again is a pain

[vestal swan]

Pliny was just you avg guy who panicked during the apocalypse

Like the fleas but without the alcohol

[cedar skiff]

i really don’t understand the point of comparing these things but yeah

[lavish tangle]

Also stop being harsh the DLCs are not out yet smh

[sinful nimbus]

Mfw I have to buy every map 🥹

[cedar skiff]

hollow knight gets you to care about characters more effectively because there isnt as many of them

which doesnt make silksongs large cast an inherently bad thing

the world is larger, its more alive, but that means of course youll only pass by certain people once

[spark valve]

I mean it does if caring about the npcs is supposed to be the point

[silk dirge]

yeah i think when you create a large world you have to have more characters which means less time for each character

[cedar skiff]

hallownests a fucking corpse to the point where you see one person they immediately become your friend

[vestal swan]

I cared more about some of the NPCs that I missed dying before I got to meet them then some of the NPCs I did talk to

[cedar skiff]

in silksong you have one off somewhat forgettable encounters which add into an overall feeling of the depth of the world youre in

[lavish tangle]

In hk you have 0 memories going in as a character, you are literally a very old baby
In silksong you are playing as a seasoned hunter who knows they shouldn’t trust everyone they meet and are low key pissed the whole time

[spark valve]

if ss wants to make you grind fetch quests for act 3 they could at least use that to make you interact with more characters instead of just marching to and from the quest board

[vestal swan]

Like the shop guy at the 30$ door hut? He was just kind of greedy and rude

[lavish tangle]

You can get him killed :)

[vestal swan]

He dies either way so

[sinful nimbus]

Ehhh quest mandated progression is kinda lame imo

[lavish tangle]

Yeah but it can be your fault directly

[vestal swan]

Also the fact that the thing on the other side of that door was just one of those rhino beetles was so unbelievably underwhelming, I thought there was a whole ass boss in there

[silk dirge]

i mean tbh hk doesnt actually have many interesting npcs bc there arent even that many npcs straight up so like a lot of npcs are interesting but there are very very few of them in the world

[sinful nimbus]

Its a metroidvania I was playing for progression gated by map design & movement abilities not Monster Hunter quests

[spark valve]

it's not great but it could like
be something

[cedar skiff]

and were reminded that it isnt a writing fault because you get really into the one most reoccurring character shakra. its just a difference in how the world is laid out

[spark valve]

hey monster hunter quests are better

[lavish tangle]

There is only 3 of them in the whole game come on

[humble peak]

Can you? He doesn't die until Act 3 even if you let the rhino out

[vestal swan]

I was never road blocked by not having done the quest because I was just trying to do everything already, but I guess in another playthrough this is going to be a pain in the ass

[sinful nimbus]

Not MHGU man

[vestal swan]

They are cool creatures I like them, I do not think that it deserved to have all of that build up or be the only thing on the other side of that door

[humble peak]

hey! there was also a flea!

[lavish tangle]

As someone who did 3 playthroughs to get all the achievements, the transition into act 3 sucks

[cedar skiff]

honestly the reason im so attached to the hk cast in the first place is because of years of consuming fanon content

[sinful nimbus]

Me when I have to go through 3 entire hidden questlines to unlock 3 of like 7 mandatory quests to get a big central quest so I can get to a higher star and do the entire thing all over again

[silk dirge]

like some areas of hk just straight up do not have any npcs other than ones who wander around

quirrel and cornifer are like the only npcs in crystal peak if im not mistaken

[sinful nimbus]

There were two mandatory Bulldrome quests 💔

[vestal swan]

You didn't get a kitsune but you got a jrpg

[vestal swan]

And 2 egg deliveries

[sinful nimbus]

the CAT AMBUSH

MHGU quests can be terrifying man

[lavish tangle]

The slab is a very interesting place if only there were living npcs there

[sterile jacinth]

I think Myla too at the very beginning

[silk dirge]

me when i leave my bedroom door open

[vestal swan]

I was talking about the food delivery and the mask paint delivery

[sinful nimbus]

Oh those

[vestal swan]

They're apparently is one!

[silk dirge]

myla is crossroads i think

[sinful nimbus]

I actually like those quests they were fun

[silk dirge]

i dont remember exactly

[humble peak]

old penitent

[sterile jacinth]

Oh ok. Close tho

[silk dirge]

and broodling

[humble peak]

Myla may as well be in peaks

[humble peak]

oh yeah!!

[silk dirge]

wtf is broodling dialog tho

[lavish tangle]

If only there were non secret living npcs*

[silk dirge]

also first sinner does count as an npc

she does talk to you

[sinful nimbus]

I think the worst part about SS npcs is that they kill like half of them in Act 3 for no reason

[humble peak]

ehhh

[lavish tangle]

Shut up you cannot dialogue her multiple times and get to the dialogue exhaustion dialogue

[silk dirge]

ok but can we agree the bellway pilgrim deserves to die

[humble peak]

act 3 also kills like half the nice areas in the game lol
Bellhart and Songclave get so trashed it was not necessary

[silk dirge]

me when i see a cute dog "horrible beast"

[lavish tangle]

True

[cedar skiff]

bellhart.exe

[humble peak]

at least let us restore them dude come on

[lavish tangle]

Act 4 dlc when

[sterile jacinth]

Yk I would be scared if a giant monster bursted out from the bells too

[cedar skiff]

guys always believe in epilogue dlc

[silk dirge]

plasmium update 🙏

this is the time i pull out the mystery icon theory

[cedar skiff]

inb4 the plasmium makes everything even worse

[lavish tangle]

The what theory

[humble peak]

I'm pretty sure Fearful Pilgrim oes leave earlier if you spook em

[silk dirge]

where is rune harp

[lavish tangle]

WHAT AM I LOOKING AT IS THIS IN THE FILES?

[cedar skiff]

also chapel maid might be the closest thing to elder bug

[silk dirge]

why is rune harp not a steam badge

[humble peak]

owned

[silk dirge]

its steam badges

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think every hk character needs a sk equivalent

[lavish tangle]

Huh

[sinful nimbus]

I remember before release, the modern version of Bellhart appeared in a screenshot in 2025 and it was a lot grungier and darker than the older version from 2019, and people were like speculating that doing quests would help restore it to the version we previously saw and like... man that would've been so much better and would've been pretty special

[humble peak]

it's funny because rune harp would be a smaller spoiler than the egg lol

[silk dirge]

https://steamdb.info/app/1030300/communityitems/

[silk dirge]

yeah lol

why did they specifically not have rune harp so they could have the mystery icon

when they could just have everbloom

[lavish tangle]

Rune harp should have been instead of the egg, the mystery icon can stay

[sterile jacinth]

Arguably even more of a spoiler lol

[silk dirge]

i mean hk had void heart steam badge

thats what im basing it off of

[sinful nimbus]

Everbloom was known pre-release as well

[silk dirge]

the item you use to get true ending

[cedar skiff]

am i tripping or is the contrast with the bg better in the second pic than ingane

im going crazy

[humble peak]

wasn't that through the badges though?

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really remember tbh

[foggy fractal]

no they turned up blur everywhere after 2019 trailer

[silk dirge]

like there has to be some meaning to why team cherry used this icon for the foil

[lavish tangle]

Hornet ascending

[humble peak]

this first pic is act 3 bellhart right?

[sinful nimbus]

Just regular Bellhart

[humble peak]

really?

[sinful nimbus]

Act 3 is even more trashed

[sterile jacinth]

That big thing in the back is destroyed in act 3

[humble peak]

good lord

like fr though why can't we restore it 😭
give us some donation quests idc, lemme get the old music back...

[silk dirge]

if you want the 2019 version of bellhart back believe the mystery icon

[foggy fractal]

look at this silly big round head fella in the left page, why did ari cut this ??? is he stupid ?

[humble peak]

must be

[sterile jacinth]

What a fella

[sinful nimbus]

Ari sketches are tuff

[cedar skiff]

i love his sketchbook

[humble peak]

or they're planning something BIG

[sterile jacinth]

Reminds me of false knight

[lavish tangle]

DLC

[foggy fractal]

why did they cut the bigpipers 💔 at least some left over sprites and code are still in the game

[silk dirge]

team cherry released this version of silksong to troll us and the mystery icon is holding the secrets to the real silksong

[cedar skiff]

art book…… plewse..

[sinful nimbus]

I prefer the current version of GMS but this old sketch is cool af

[silk dirge]

im waiting for people to take acmi map photos that have more than 4 pixels

[foggy fractal]

best you get is cut content's wiki page which has some of his sketchbook

[sinful nimbus]

Return of Ellina

[foggy fractal]

isn't it already over

[silk dirge]

no

[empty scarab]

do i get shot if i troll here

[silk dirge]

the exhibit is for a few months

[sterile jacinth]

Yea

[foggy fractal]

well god I hope someone gets some high quality photos of the maps

[empty scarab]

damn

[sinful nimbus]

What if Ellina visited Pharloom in its prime before the first book and that's why she knows Shellwood... That'd be tuff

[sinful nimbus]

Why would you say this 💔

[lavish tangle]

Grey prince zore
Shell wood

[sinful nimbus]

If you didn't admit you were here to troll it could've been successful

[humble peak]

i think shellwood is just a common material

[empty scarab]

she's actually nuu's mother (trust)

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah that seems likely but its not as funny

[humble peak]

it's a little weird there's a whole area named after it but eh

[cedar skiff]

hey at least were getting that shakra comic on everyones souls

[lavish tangle]

Shellwood might just be the in universe word for like “forest”

Like the Sahara desert being the desert desert

[empty scarab]

why didn't the weavers throw silk eaters at gms to eat her

[humble peak]

Like it'd be weird if there was a forest just called "Oak" right?

[empty scarab]

trust

that's definitely how it works

[lavish tangle]

Surprisingly not, there are many “tree forest” because of mistranslation and misunderstandings

I mean “river river” is a common river name

[humble peak]

i mean yeah but like you said that's due to translations

[lavish tangle]

And “lake lake”

[sterile jacinth]

Shell would is presumably in the same language

[humble peak]

there are rivers that translate to "river river" but not many that are literally called that in one tongue

[lavish tangle]

It isn’t called shell wood forest, shell wood might just be wood/woody area

[spark valve]

but the better analogy is 'woods'

[humble peak]

And again it's not "Shellwood Woods" or anything it's just "Shellwood"

[cedar skiff]

the process is so interesting it rly seems like gms took him a bit to figure out whilst other characters were one off inmediate ideas

[lavish tangle]

The shellwoods

[empty scarab]

why 👍 when

[sinful nimbus]

Makes sense

Tbh I still don't think they totally nailed GMS's design

[lavish tangle]

Where are her legs Ari? WHERE ARE THEY

[humble peak]

ig that's fair. If you can talk about going to "the wood" or "the woods" ig you could talk about going to "the shellwood"

[sinful nimbus]

The abdomen looks a bit goofy and I don't fw the sword legs either

Radiance already did that is the worst thing

[humble peak]

it doesn't have an article in front of it ingame but tbf neither do the wormways

[lavish tangle]

Also this is underground, there is no wood here, only shells that look and act like wood
Shellwood

[sinful nimbus]

But the human hair is awesome af and I like the face and thorax

[silk dirge]

i want to see the hair physics code

celeste has crazy hair physics and gms probably has similar

[humble peak]

why does underground mean there can be no wood?

[lavish tangle]

Trees need sunlight and are massive af

[spark valve]

no they don't

[vestal swan]

They don't though

[spark valve]

hk has tons of plants growing just fine underground

[foggy fractal]

some weaver stuff (ignore brumm)

[vestal swan]

There's an god who made an entire half of a region green just because she wanted to

[foggy fractal]

like all those white grass

[lavish tangle]

You can grow grass in a little crack in the ground, good luck with a tree

[silk dirge]

i like this drawing

this is cute

[humble peak]

you can't rely on real-life biology for this kind of stuff

[silk dirge]

is this nymm i think it is

[foggy fractal]

mix of brumm and uhh what's his name after banishing the troupe

[lavish tangle]

Yeah that’s godly intervention biology need not apply

[vestal swan]

Why are you applying IRL logic so strictly to this game like it matters

[sinful nimbus]

Shellwood in particular is being magically sustained

[humble peak]

yeah irl you can't grow a tree in a little cave but this isn't real life

[lavish tangle]

I am not I am saying logically trees are rare in this universe

[silk dirge]

like i said before if this was real life logic america wouldve raided the abyss for oil

[spark valve]

you don't even need magic to have abundant flora without sunlight photosynthesis just isn't a thing obviously

[lavish tangle]

I mean I do not recall a tree in hk

[vestal swan]

I don't think a tree has ever been mentioned to exist in either game, that does not remove the possibility of woods being woods, what is this goal post pushing why is it in the parking lot

[lavish tangle]

I am not talking about plants in general just trees because big

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder if shellwood has roots from trees on the surface. Probably not cause we don’t see anything like that in the underworks or citadel

[humble peak]

also how does it being shells make any more sense?? like all the hard vegetation we see is fossils then??

[sterile jacinth]

I’m thinking it’s hard like shell

[lavish tangle]

The grey mother is root but also I would say her body is shell

[sinful nimbus]

Shellwood in particular seems to have used shells for its growth somehow

[vestal swan]

We see like five times as much territory above Shellwood, it is not the remnants of a plant on top

[humble peak]

shells are good fertilizer

[spark valve]

sure but it is still flora

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I was speculating

[vestal swan]

We see all the way to the "surface" there's like no wiggle room for that

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah

[lavish tangle]

Where is the line drawn in the hk universe between flora and fauna anyways? These plants are too sentient for my liking

[humble peak]

they included a note that it was unlikely lol

[sterile jacinth]

No evidence of any big plants on the surface either lol

[spark valve]

when things are said to be plants
they are plants

[lavish tangle]

But do they have shells or is that a bug only thing? Like is the pale ladies skin a shell or bark or what, like genuinely confused

[sterile jacinth]

Most of them are bugs disguised as plants (gray root is the exception idk what she is)

[vestal swan]

Root

[humble peak]

anyway, wood irl has a pretty strict definition but if we don't apply real life biology (which we shouldn't) and just consider "wood" as plant-based hard organic matter
there's definitely lots of wood in HK

[lavish tangle]

Fair enough then, lots of wood but not many trees (wood from other sources)

[humble peak]

ik the splinter dudes are bugs but both the little flowers that shoot and the ones that spring out from the walls are plants
I don't remember about the floating flowers with the area attack

[grand star]

how much is 1 rosary?

[humble peak]

1 rosary

[grand star]

in USD i guess

[spark valve]

doesn't translate

[sterile jacinth]

Oh yeah you’re right hmm… idk if Nyleth is a bug either

[humble peak]

ok these guys are bugs

Drifting bug disguised as a flower. Disperses crackling clouds of pollen if threatened.

[empty scarab]

that's a goddam flower

[sterile jacinth]

Oooh ok

[empty scarab]

that's a goddam bug disguised as a flower

[humble peak]

but these guys are plants

[sterile jacinth]

You can buy a drink for 10 in halfway home so I bet they’re a little less than a dollar

[humble peak]

Both described as "floral foes"

[sterile jacinth]

That just makes it more confusing 😔

[humble peak]

yeah Nyleth is a plant

[humble peak]

Nyleth is these guys' mom

[lavish tangle]

Nyleth is a plant but her children are bugs?

[humble peak]

no

[empty scarab]

why does hornet need an item to walk like a spider

[humble peak]

her children are plants

[sterile jacinth]

Half weaver

[empty scarab]

yeah fair

[humble peak]

the bugs in shellwood are immigrants

[lavish tangle]

And the bugs are impersonators

[grand star]

impractical to do so otherwise

[empty scarab]

but why the fuck does she have to unlock her own skills
did the fall make her forget them ?

[grand star]

she’s probably a higher being right?

[empty scarab]

isn't it a sequel

[sterile jacinth]

That could be metaphorical as well but as we see with gray root it’s possible

[lavish tangle]

That’s a big moving plant that by a real life biological definition (which means nothing) is an animal

[sterile jacinth]

Doubt it. I think she’s just a powerful bug

[humble peak]

no evidence

[grand star]

most of the higher beings we’ve seen can create life, seems to be their defining feature

[humble peak]

not a bug

[empty scarab]

true ending

[sterile jacinth]

You know what I mean

[lavish tangle]

It is a sequel

[humble peak]

what are we talking about

[empty scarab]

literally the dialog before fighting lost lace

i think

[lavish tangle]

Idk there are like 5 convos, can we use the thread function

[grand star]

did you beat the game

[lavish tangle]

No perms fair enough

[vestal swan]

Rune cage weakened her

[sterile jacinth]

Hornet looses her power because she was locked in a silk rune cage for like presumably a few weeks at least

[empty scarab]

but she still has most of them in the slab-

[humble peak]

yes??
I'm saying there's no evidence for Nyleth being a higher being. What were you talking about?

[sterile jacinth]

That wasn’t very long

[vestal swan]

Slab wasn't a cross country journey

[lavish tangle]

You replied to the wrong message lol

[grand star]

did you reply to the wrong message?

[empty scarab]

yeah sorry if i'm dumb i'm just curious

[humble peak]

holy shit i did lol

[spark valve]

the slab cage is bad or something she can just punch her way out of it

[lavish tangle]

She is weakened in the cage but they let her out like 10 minutes later so no permanent damage

[sterile jacinth]

They did somehow manage to take her tools cloak and needle

[grand star]

GMS was also rune-caged right?

basically at least

[sterile jacinth]

The cradle?

[humble peak]

not really

[lavish tangle]

Gms was sung a lullaby and she went to bed

[charred fern]

Are the shamans dead or are they just hiding

[sterile jacinth]

Probably dead

[humble peak]

i think they fucking die

[lavish tangle]

I will assume dead until DLC

[sinful nimbus]

The Scuttlebrace increases the flexibility of her spine

She can't do it normally

[empty scarab]

that's pretty weird-

[grand star]

pretty sure they knew the everbloom would kill them

[lavish tangle]

Ok why can she climb up walls with it that’s not a spine thing

[grand star]

so yeah they died

[empty scarab]

imagine putting a hat and being able to do this

[sinful nimbus]

Average charm/tool description

[empty scarab]

cling grip

[lavish tangle]

The shamans are not void

[humble peak]

the everbloom doesn't kill them it's the amount of effort that it took to acccess the memeory

[sinful nimbus]

The explanation for longnail is that it increases the bearer's "aura"

Thanks TC

[humble peak]

wdym with ancestor?

[grand star]

really. they all give you void related spells after turning into a bunch of black particles in HK

[humble peak]

not this again

[grand star]

after you directly absorb them

[sinful nimbus]

The SS snail shamans note their power is all of soul

[sterile jacinth]

Aren’t those just soul spells?

[lavish tangle]

They worship void, they are not void, in hk YOU are void that’s why that happens

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Shade Soul

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

@starpengu used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Shade Soul

[charred fern]

Cant they just be hiding from the delicate flower because theyre uhh made of void? Wait are they made of void?

[humble peak]

the power of the shamans lets TK meld their own essence with the spells which is what grants the void aspect

[humble peak]

they are not void !!

[lavish tangle]

The shamans are not void

[charred fern]

Ah ok mb

[humble peak]

I mean yeah that's their ancestor but like
it could have just died

[grand star]

i’m assuming that’s why they look so similar to void

[sterile jacinth]

That would also contradict to what we know about void rn

[lusty whale]

Merry christmas

[lavish tangle]

If the shamans were void then

1. How do they have a will
2. How do they speak
3. Why do they worship, study and potentially research void

[lavish tangle]

Early

[humble peak]

worship it?

[lavish tangle]

Therefore the shamans are not void

[lusty whale]

In my country it is celebrated in October

[sinful nimbus]

They would not be the first void being to have a will or vocalize

[empty scarab]

jokes aside can you throw silk eaters at lace/phantom to eat them

[lavish tangle]

Vocalize? Who else

[sinful nimbus]

They are not pure vessels for... obvious reasons

[sinful nimbus]

Collector

[lavish tangle]

It does not talk

[sterile jacinth]

I think they would just kill them

[humble peak]

all other void beings we see do that stuff have had a will imprinted on them

[sinful nimbus]

But it does vocalize

I'm not sure where the idea that void beings in general cannot speak comes from

That's only said figuratively about pure vessel

[grand star]

1. all of the vessels had wills
2. aura
3. biology?

[empty scarab]

what if you hit them to stun them then you throw them lmao

[lavish tangle]

Vessels kingsmolds and the little guys you bounce on

[lusty whale]

Merry Christmas to all!!

[sterile jacinth]

I dunno. If I threw a ravenous dog at your face would it eat you?

[silk dirge]

what

[empty scarab]

yes

[grand star]

if i was made of magical void liquid i would worship it too

[lavish tangle]

The vessels had wills because they were only part void

[lusty whale]

??

[sinful nimbus]

The robots not speaking isn't evidence that all void beings categorically cannot speak

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah but not all at once. That’s probably what it is

[lusty whale]

I just say Merry Christmas

[lavish tangle]

Fair

[lavish tangle]

Cool

[silk dirge]

its not anywhere near christmas tho

you got like 2 months

[sterile jacinth]

Not really the channel for this but marry Christmas to you

[lusty whale]

In my country it is celebrated in October

[sterile jacinth]

Neat

[silk dirge]

interesting

[grand star]

they lack mouths

[silk dirge]

i have never heard of that

[lusty whale]

I am from Venezuela

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder if there are other Skarr tribes outside of Pharloom

[silk dirge]

skarr could just be an in universe word for ant

[sterile jacinth]

You’d have better luck in a different channel this one is more lore oriented

[silk dirge]

in which case probably

[lavish tangle]

Kinda like how we see mantis tribe in hk and verdania in ss

[sterile jacinth]

That’s true. Or it could be the name of the tribe after Karm united them

[sinful nimbus]

This clearly isn't an issue for the Collector

[lavish tangle]

Are you implying the god tamer is a skarr

[silk dirge]

i mean theres different types of ants also

[sterile jacinth]

And colonies irl are extremely territorial so I can see other tribes existing

[lavish tangle]

Fair but also you chose the only skarr which are kicked out of their tribe

[empty scarab]

would that mean all the crazy dudes from the coloseum are too

[spark valve]

god tamer isn't an ant

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't really look like them like at all

[lavish tangle]

Fair enough then lmao

[limpid summit]

Guys who wants to compile a list of dead kingdom scavengers

[sinful nimbus]

Does Tuk belong to a list of dead kingdom scavengers

[spark valve]

relic seekers chroniclers steel sentinels grimm troupe mr mushroom (sorta)

[limpid summit]

Hunters
Chroniclers
Mister Mushroom
Grimm Troupe
Steel Servants and their vassals
Relic Seekers
Sprintmasters

[lavish tangle]

The hunters journal in hk was pre written and the knight had to understand it, in ss hornet is writing it on the go

[silk dirge]

mask makers

[sinful nimbus]

Who invited sprintmasters to the team 😭 🙏

[lavish tangle]

I wouldn’t count mr mushroom he just loves looking at them as they fall

[silk dirge]

me

[sterile jacinth]

She could have meant to be an ant before the Skarr were even created

[limpid summit]

True the HK one at least was definitely around pre fall but true

[spark valve]

she wasn't

[sterile jacinth]

He’s a herald. He promises change

[limpid summit]

Dude he is

[spark valve]

the god tamer design concept was a roach

[sinful nimbus]

Wow Godtamer is a muckroach?

[limpid summit]

They’re urban explorers

[silk dirge]

my idea of a roach is now forever ruined by muckroaches😭

[lavish tangle]

He’s a herald, he comes when change comes, his dialogue says he just likes watching

[sinful nimbus]

Did you know in development the entire Sinner's Road was meant to be like the Mist and Muckroaches were instead Dustroaches

[sterile jacinth]

Interesting. I couldn’t make heads or tails of what he was saying lol

[lavish tangle]

Fair

[silk dirge]

it was all part of greymoor also i think

thats why greymoor was the "largest area tc ever made"

[spark valve]

sure why not the hk universe apparently has like a dozen things in it max

[silk dirge]

it used to be a few separate areas together

[spark valve]

... no

that design

was a roach

[silk dirge]

wait thats supposed to be a lobster

wtf

[spark valve]

she has zero ant elements

[sterile jacinth]

What does her journal entry say?

[lavish tangle]

Fun fact that is probably a coincidence, mr mushrooms needolin dialogue has the same number of syllables as shermas audible song

[sterile jacinth]

Does she have one?

[spark valve]

but ants don't have red armor they have red bodies

god tamer's shell is the wrong color, shape, weapon is a colo weapon not an ant weapon

[silk dirge]

her weapon looks similar to karak weapons

[lavish tangle]

The skarrs probably didn’t exist yet assuming skarr doesn’t just meant ant

[spark valve]

no it's just not a distinctive style of weapon

[silk dirge]

im not about to start the lord fool was a karak argument tho

i dont think theres relation

tho i do think lord fool is probably some sort of crustacean as well

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s the name of the tribe but I could be wrong

You chose that picture </3

[small gate]

its the tribe yeah

[sterile jacinth]

😔

[small gate]

hornet calls them ants

[lavish tangle]

Their weapon looks like a spear meant for throwing, one of the most common weapon types in human history (they are bugs things are probably different)

That is a different kind of weapon

[sterile jacinth]

God tamer also doesn’t have any of the same visual design of the Skarr like the bone

[sterile jacinth]

I’d say it looks more like metal. It’s too dark

[lavish tangle]

Either that or Shellwood but properly sharpened

[sterile jacinth]

Get fucked zote

[lavish tangle]

Amen 🙏

These guys’ antennas are not curved

Also skarr is a specific tribe that probably didn’t exist yet

[sterile jacinth]

Skarr antennae are more segmented

Out of universe

I mean irl Skarr didn’t exist yet

[visual glacier]

Both are inspired by ants

[lavish tangle]

The skarr singer is alive when we meet her, this implies that the skarr tribe is one lifetime long, hornet could not find a mate that lives that long

[sinful nimbus]

If the OG Lobster Lancer was male we can conclude they were not intended to be a weaver. Fascinating

[sterile jacinth]

Karm is not a normal bug

[lavish tangle]

She is the one with the heart

[visual glacier]

The lady who wrote wanders journal and loddie were both inspired by ladybugs yet they look different

It’s the same case with the Skarr and god tamer

[lavish tangle]

True but she is not higher being and if ant queens lived that long anyways then surely hornet would have tried that before going “none can match my own”

[spark valve]

her species isn't stated but she's not an ant

[visual glacier]

She’s not a skarr can confirm

[lavish tangle]

Based off of cockroaches, the design looks the same as the original

[spark valve]

most characters don't have a stated species that's just not a thing

[lavish tangle]

So I would say cockroach

How many partners did hornet have? I heard 27 thrown around in here but idk if it was a meme or like confirmed

[sterile jacinth]

I think Hornet is older than the old hearts but I could be wrong

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing confirmed

She does say mates plural though

[sterile jacinth]

Unclear. More than 1 but other than that

[lavish tangle]

Did the old hearts exist before the weavers?

[vestal swan]

No number but more than one because I think she says a plural ahhh 🐌

[sterile jacinth]

Good point

Karm could be a younger old heart

[lavish tangle]

According to scoot she is the last of a lineage which would mean yes she is relatively young

[spark valve]

the old hearts didn't necessarily predate the weavers as individuals

[sterile jacinth]

Kahnn at least is older than the weavers but I think Karm is younger

[lavish tangle]

(Relative to older than weaverkind)