sk-lore

[gentle aspen]

It’s quite literally never done that for him

you can’t assert that’s a thing that’ll happen

[twin dragon]

Yeah they realized weavers suck

[twin dragon]

Implied he died because of it

[gentle aspen]

not at all

he didn’t die to void common misconception

[fading shard]

It was implied he died of bloody grief

[twin dragon]

Void represents regret iirc

[honest sun]

millions of vessels + this guys and pharloom will be ours again

[lean temple]

Another point is that all the tribes of Hallownest would realistically ally with PK against a threat to all of them, while in Pharloom we know the Pinstresses, Shamans, Bilewater, Verdania, Skarr, and Karak would all want the Citadel to fall to dust, if those factions still all existed.

[toxic mulch]

The vessels wouldn't be made into an army

They were made with a sole purpose and discarded if they didn't work

[fading shard]

Okay I am gonna mention the sentinels

[twin dragon]

Alright, that's fair

[solar oriole]

That is why I'm saying that the Citadel imprisoned first sinner and not the Weavers like you said, I don't understand why you would think that.

[honest sun]

he would have but idk why he didnt

[fading shard]

and the kingsmoulds

[fading shard]

Btw the great sentinels were called a threat by the hunter

[toxic mulch]

The 5 great knights would probably wipe the floor with most of pharlooms troops tho

[fading shard]

great sentinels

[lean temple]

First Sinner exposed the lies of GMS and the Weavers, which makes sense why she'd be imprisoned.

[fading shard]

no void magic or nothing just skilled warriors

[honest sun]

every bug in hallownest would

[fading shard]

And even with the warriors in the colloseum he doesn't call them that

[twin dragon]

Because the weavers had that divine status? that's like one of the ways they had control, plus, several effigies are found depicting prayers to "weavers of time"

[fading shard]

or most people in general

[twin dragon]

This could be the case yeah

[molten python]

Grindle too.

[honest sun]

theyre just the mafia at this point

[fading shard]

he only really calls a few select bugs to be a threat

[toxic mulch]

I still hope we get that cut dryya fight in silksong

[fading shard]

most of them are hallownest related nubbie

[lean temple]

Only Atla was the Weaver of Time, other Weavers likely associated with different things, like polytheism gods do.

[twin dragon]

The hunter's in hallownest yeah...

[molten python]

Cut Dryya fight? Did they ever intend to make a Dryya fight?

[fading shard]

The kingdom

[twin dragon]

Weaver of healing and stuff

[fading shard]

The kingdom nubbie

[polar fiber]

well shes dead isnt she

[fading shard]

Not the region

[twin dragon]

Pretty obvious that was a big load of bullshit

[fading shard]

I am very specifically talking about the sentinels

[toxic mulch]

Yes,at least from what I know dryya was the original fight to get to white lady but it was replaced with traitor lord

[fading shard]

and husk guards

and kingsmoulds and all that jazz

[twin dragon]

I don't think they could do much aside from the kingsmould

[fading shard]

what do you mean

[twin dragon]

Esp if you compare them with soul imbued mechanisms

[fading shard]

the sentinels were called a threat by the hunter

And you forget how powerful the hunter is

[twin dragon]

Ok what "sentinels" are we talking about here

[fading shard]

Great sentinels

[twin dragon]

We don't get to see that no...

[molten python]

The Hunter is a Weaver btw.

[fading shard]

no

[twin dragon]

Please don't start this again..

[molten python]

Also Hornet is void and Zote is a vessel.

[fading shard]

He's said to have hunted most bugs

[twin dragon]

Wrong, zote is god

[fading shard]

and considers a lot of them to be a fun sport

[twin dragon]

Great sentinel the ones found in the premium half of city of tears right?

[zinc cloud]

zote is obviously cursed thats why he is so easy to beat, it locks away his true potential

[fading shard]

and also the big sentinel with the gerat nail

Which is a common sentinel

[twin dragon]

Yeah those don't stand a chance

[molten python]

Weren't those sentries?

[twin dragon]

No clue

[molten python]

Great Husk Sentries iirc.

[polar fiber]

^

[fading shard]

Yeah sentries

[twin dragon]

Guy is calling them sentinels

[fading shard]

I have this problem

[twin dragon]

Choir clappers would take like 7 of those each

[fading shard]

where i call the second sentinel a sentry

and sentries sentinels

[twin dragon]

the 2nd sentry is wild

[fast lagoon]

dawg the sentries don’t even know how to jump

[fading shard]

and I can't stop doing this

[mint stratus]

Similarly I keep using charm and tool interchangeably

[solar oriole]

It makes more sense to me if they originally established themselves as figures of worship, but as the Citadel became more opulent, they suppresed those practices so as to focus the worship on the Citadel itself.

[molten python]

I just finished Dark Souls so I think of the Dark Souls ones everytime I hear sentinels.

[twin dragon]

Weavers seemed to use the big cocoon of distress that gms made as a false idol of some sorts

Or the high caste themselves, as it is the sigil of the citadel

[fading shard]

Wdym they don't stand a chance that are just as skilled as the random cidatel goobers

[twin dragon]

They're big but that's about it

[molten python]

I've seen some people using Nail and Needle interchangeably.

[mint stratus]

The weavers seem to be worshipped akin to saints imo

[twin dragon]

Don't seem too mobile either

[molten python]

Or spells and Silk skills.

[fading shard]

they are said to be skilled

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[fast lagoon]

citadel guys can fly i think that’s a pretty big advantage

[twin dragon]

Well we have skilled AND they used silk

[fading shard]

.........a lot of the sentries can fly

[fading shard]

most of them literally use silk as a crutch

[gentle aspen]

So?

[fast lagoon]

the tankiest ones can’t but the tall dudes in the citadel whatever they’re called

[mint stratus]

Pilgrims, there’s little effigies of weavers they inscribe their prayers to like saint idols

[twin dragon]

They're basically lobotomized at that time and yet still keep their abilities

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Winged Sentry

Description:
Flying sentry of Hallownest. Patrols the heights of the vast cavern in which the city was built.

Hunter's notes:
Dances through the air just out of reach until it spots an opening, then swoops in for a decisive strike. If you're confident, wait for it to come to you then counter-attack.

Dream Nail:
...Outsider...
...Defend...
...Kill...
...Protect....the city...
...Not welcome...Kill...
...Keep out...

@kingoclowns used /journal name: Winged Sentry

[fast lagoon]

that guy dies in like 2 hits max nail

[gentle aspen]

So????

[edgy barn]

Grand Reeds

[fast lagoon]

yeah these don’t die in 2 hits

[twin dragon]

Citadel seems to have more of their infantry than hallownest as a whole

[fading shard]

neither do the great sentries

[twin dragon]

But we do only see a segment of both city of tears and the citadel so we can't rlly tell

[fading shard]

hallownest was said to have a many of heroes

[fast lagoon]

i hate seeing 3D backgrounds and knowing i can’t travel to those things

[twin dragon]

isn't that referring to the 5 knights

[fading shard]

no

[twin dragon]

5 knights would absolutely carry the war either way

[fading shard]

ogrim very much so seperates the two

[mint stratus]

Might be because the citadels on its last legs instead of a fully dead kingdom?

[twin dragon]

Gameplay.

[fading shard]

it's even in bloodyl ore that the husk sentries are weaker then their non infected counter parts

the hunter even says so that it's a rare sight to see a infected

show skill in one of the journal entries

[twin dragon]

That fact doesn't help them in any way

[fading shard]

how doesi t not

that just means that their prime counter parts were a lot more strong and skilled

[twin dragon]

Maybe i had a stroke reading that

[mint stratus]

Do you think there are still reeds of purity that could be grown to potentially purify bilewater on a larger scale?

[twin dragon]

I don't think that's how they work

[edgy barn]

Which entry is that?

[fading shard]

don't remember

[edgy barn]

not how the reed of purity works

[mint stratus]

Dang

[solar oriole]

Wait... the question is" who imprisoned First Sinner?" I'm saying it was the Citadel. Who are you did it?

[twin dragon]

Imo i think the general infantry of pharloom would curb stomp hallownest's, but what about everything else?

Like pale king, the 5 knights

[lean temple]

The Weavers, for exposing their charade of divinity

[fading shard]

the kingsmoulds?

[twin dragon]

they're big and strong yeah

But they're limited in numbers probably

[fading shard]

the great sentries would equal to the grand reeds

[twin dragon]

And costly to make

[twin dragon]

Grand reeds curb stomp them and it's not even close

They are not only trained with pins, but with silk

[fast lagoon]

grand reeds can parry

[twin dragon]

And are far more agile

[fading shard]

so can the great sentries

[twin dragon]

They can't even lift their asses off the ground

[fading shard]

the entry states that the great sentries are mighty fast with their blows

[fast lagoon]

are we talking about those fat guys in right side city

[twin dragon]

That's the only thing keeping them away from getting shredded by a thread storm

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[fast lagoon]

ok i’d like to know how they’re parrying then

[fading shard]

they do so with their shields

[fast lagoon]

oh yeah

thread storm ignores shield

[twin dragon]

its stupid to compare them gameplay wise

Hk's a much simpler game

[fading shard]

I'm comparing them lore wise here

not gmaeplay wise

[twin dragon]

yeah grand reeds stomp

Still

[fast lagoon]

ok, then grand reed can just fly to be safe since we can ignore the fact that their one flying attack in game like always misses

[twin dragon]

Oh yeah they can also fucking fly

[fading shard]

They don't

[twin dragon]

for good measure, and that mach 2 crawl

[fast lagoon]

do they also summon the white robot things that steal your silk or do they just appear when they feel like it

[twin dragon]

Clawmaidens just randomly materialize yeah

[fast lagoon]

ah

[fading shard]

wait hold on

[fast lagoon]

i just realized there’s like double as many flying enemies in the citadel as non flying

[fading shard]

The journal entry for the grand reeds talk about their silk abilities and say that their crude

[solar oriole]

That makes no sense, why would First Sinner be waiting for someone like the other Weavers?

Half-spawn of a distant land...
Within this cage I have waited...
Let my strength be bound to yours...
Reclaim the future of our accursed kingdom...

[twin dragon]

fym waiting

[fading shard]

and don't even mention them being fast in combat

[twin dragon]

First sinner realized the truth and tried exposing it

[lean temple]

She's waiting for Hornet, bcz she wants GMS overthrown

[fast lagoon]

i don’t see the city of tears bugs using soul though

[fading shard]

or strong

[edgy barn]

They are very clearly fast when you fight them

[fading shard]

The journal entries for the sentries talk about their skills in combat

[fading shard]

Yeah but I'm going with lore here Zza

[twin dragon]

That is an important factor still

[fading shard]

we're comparing gameplay of hollow knight that was a lot more simple in origin

and silksong

[twin dragon]

Doesn't matter, grand reed outfeats them

[fading shard]

I'm gonna go with what we know with lore

[fast lagoon]

sure reeds don’t have great silk control but just any is better than the sentries

[twin dragon]

they do know how to use it

[fast lagoon]

yeah but other guy was saying journal entry called the reeds silk usage crude

[twin dragon]

inserted into their body like basically most bugs

[twin dragon]

Crude to hornet, which is known to jump and hop and do all kinds of acrobacies

[fast lagoon]

true hornet did write the journal entries

[edgy barn]

actually, the citadel bugs that can use silk don't use the one inside their bodies, they carry spools.

[twin dragon]

I mean they still do have silk in them

[edgy barn]

the one in their bodies is all tangled up with their organs, that would be awkward.

[twin dragon]

maybe not explicitly used for combat

but for life extension and stuff like that

[fading shard]

okay I feel like you guys are underestimating hallownests army here rn

Choristor
Reed
Grand Reed
Choir Clapper
Clawmaiden
memoria

the cidatel bugs army

sentinels and also of course the chorushes

[fading shard]

are the automatons

[vernal swallow]

any tips for fighting ||seth||

[solar oriole]

It's the dialogue you get when you first interact with her. She was also waiting for like the other Weaver who remained in Pharloom.

[twin dragon]

I don't think she is?

[lean temple]

Yeah the Weavers want Hornet to overthrow GMS

[twin dragon]

If anything all of those weavers are waiting for the one similar to them that will finally get rid of their burden, which in this case, is hornet

[vernal swallow]

I'm pretty sure it was the weavers when they were still following gms

[solar oriole]

It's her dialogue "Within this cage I have waited..."

[edgy nebula]

Honestly never noticed how rough khann’s voicelines were

[fading shard]

Husk Sentry
Heavy Sentry
Winged Sentry
Lance Sentry
Husk Guard
Great Husk Sentry
Kingsmould

[edgy nebula]

https://youtu.be/tmkGGUWDb-Y?si=qBQZEMsxUmoaQiwg really fits his entire theme of being a ruthless king

[fading shard]

are hallownests main army

[empty scarab]

@wheat locust so hornet binded a shaman corpse to get shaman crest and the shaman dude said she could just bind with people and get all their abilities

[fading shard]

with the five great knights, pale king, nail masters and the unknown heroes of hallownest being the outliers

[wheat locust]

That's because there is silk in them is it not?
Also another thing Shamans are not void in any way shape or form

[fading shard]

true I agree

[empty scarab]

still not silk

[narrow flax]

Guys I wonder what the night hollow knight is gonna be

[empty scarab]

the shamans were unafected by the haunting iirc

[wheat locust]

There is silk in them, is that not mentioned by the Shamans?
Silk has been imbued in the shells of most for generations due to greed and curiosity

[wheat locust]

Doesn't mean no silk was in them

[narrow flax]

I also have a funny name for hks hollow knight silkworm

[empty scarab]

hmmm

[vernal swallow]

(I'm using wanderer btw)

[silk dirge]

ushka karak

[twin dragon]

He's a big ass gym bro at the end of the day if you read his needolin dialogues

[empty scarab]

also hornet isn't "weak" to the void since she can go in the abyss whenever she wants even without the flower thingy

[fading shard]

no she can't?

She never once did that

[empty scarab]

she can go in the abyss

[twin dragon]

Has he played the game

[empty scarab]

not under the void lake

still was the abyss

[fading shard]

A literal servant of the pale king was in the abyss

and was a live for a long period of time before succumbing to the void

and being dead

and that was a normal bug

[empty scarab]

hmm

[heavy gyro]

some bugs adapted to even harnessing void like the gargant gloom

[empty scarab]

maybe

[wheat locust]

She requires something to defend her against the void
Everything can be hurt by the void as it wreaks absolute havoc on your soul

[arctic patrol]

Anybody can go to the abyss and live

As long as the void doesn't want you in particular gone that is

[wheat locust]

And that they can't touch the void

Because void is a force that will 100% take advantage of an opportunity given

[heavy gyro]

void liquid is safe-ish

void tendrils arent

[fading shard]

I mean sure the pale king was fine working withi t

but it's said his light can thwart the void in a lore tablet

[wheat locust]

But that's because of his light

[fading shard]

and one that isn't in hallownests regular living areas but in a personal quarter of his

[arctic patrol]

Pale King when I dip him in void (tar) and he screams loud asf

[fading shard]

so you know he wasn't just hyping ihmself up to his people

[twin dragon]

they are more or less the same

[wheat locust]

it was because he literally naturally emits that light and the Void can't really do much or anything really about that

[twin dragon]

PK was literally flaring with infinite soul

[heavy gyro]

the danger seems to be the tendrils specifically as seen in silksong true ending

[twin dragon]

that's basically most of the void

[fading shard]

it's said in a lore entry that his LIGHt repeles the void

[twin dragon]

Yeah im not deying that

[fading shard]

I mean listen if a random lighthouse can make the void chill out in the abyss

then the pale kings holy light is gonna make it cower

[fading shard]

Seriously though a lighthouse?

[twin dragon]

that's a big ass lighthouse though

[fading shard]

I mean I know but come on

Like listen I get the pale kings light

he's a powerful higher being

But if a lighthouse works then we might aswell just bring a flashlight with us to deal with void

[zinc cloud]

a soul powered light house! (i think)

[twin dragon]

lumaflies

[fading shard]

no it's not soul powered

[fading shard]

And those are just regular little insects that emit light

they literally are used as LAMPS

[fringe comet]

amplified by the lighthouse

theres some mirrors in there iirc

[twin dragon]

if one can power a lamp basically for eternity

Imagine all of them clumped up and their light directed

[vestal swan]

Yeah but it's still different than saying a soul powered light, it's just a lamp full of bugs

It's not a magic contraption or a spell

[zinc cloud]

Oh sorry then

[fading shard]

oh god it's powdered

I'm screwed ;-;

What did I get wrong this time

[vestal swan]

Boo

[fading shard]

AAAAAAAAAAA

okay jokes aside hi powdered

[vestal swan]

How to spell the word "this"

[fading shard]

goddamn it😔

[edgy nebula]

lowkey i disagree with ccmaci’s theory of wisps being silkflies

[vestal swan]

Why would they be, hornet doesn't think them similar at all and distinguishes them as a strange creature

[edgy nebula]

Yeah, his only real evidence are appearance and the wispfire lantern taking your silk

But to me it’s the wisps using your silk as tinder

[vestal swan]

They don't even look similar they look like the kanji for fire???

[edgy nebula]

He also says silk might be heavily fireproof and ???

Wisps burn away your silk

[vestal swan]

Nothing suggests anything is fireproof what

[edgy nebula]

Lemme grab the video rq

[vestal swan]

Please don't

[edgy nebula]

Not even so i can get a refresh on his evidence?

[vestal swan]

If you want to rewatch it go ahead

[fading shard]

I mean ccmaki still knows a lot about the lore

he makes mistakes

and I disagree with him sometimes

actually a good amounto f times

but he still knows a good amount

[twin dragon]

Don't the uh wisp thicket guys worship the flame because it keeps them away from the haunting and stuff?

[solar oriole]

I need you to make a longer explanation because I'm not understanding what you're saying.

• First Sinner (FS) is imprisoned in the Slab.
• The Slab is part of the Citadel.
• Citadel was built by Weavers to Cage GMS.
• The Weavers plan can be seen from one of the Rune Harps:

Last words of the Weavers.
"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.
We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

FS is waiting like planned for someone to weave them free.

Within this cage I have waited...

But you're saying the Weavers locked up FS before fleeing Pharloom for some reason which I don't understand.

• FS said they weren't really daughters of GMS and no one believed her and them locked her up?
  Wasn't the reason why the Weavers rebelled against GMS exactly because they believed in this revelation from FS?
• FS didn't like that she and the other Weavers would be worshipped, for some reason, so they locked her up?
  Why would that be? It makes no sense.

I'm saying it is much more believable that the Citadel bugs over time discovered what the Weavers really built the Citadel for and decided to throw First Sinner into the cage. And that other Weaver into the Cauldron.

[vestal swan]

That's not explicitly stated but it is assumed that they are burning away the silk

[twin dragon]

Doesn't make any sense of why they punished the weaver now known as "first sinner" because they built the citadel, plus, there's a record for her sin, apostasy

[twin dragon]

Yeah that

[lean temple]

The Weavers wanted to rule. Mask Maker says so, and in deepnest they wanted Hornet to grow strong to be their queen instead of GMS. FS knew both Weavers and GMS were liars. Her sin is apostasy so she denounced either GMS or Weavers or both

[edgy nebula]

part of cc’s theory is that the silkfly jar from whiteward and the wisp lantern from burning bugs looks similar, but the burning bugs likely lived before the citadel, so i dont think thats related and instead thry just make similar lamps

[sinful nimbus]

First Sinner is implied to be Atla, a weaver historian, so her calling the weavers out for lying about their history is perfectly in character

[twin dragon]

how is it implied she's Atla

atla might aswell not be real

[sinful nimbus]

Atla's weaver effigy is directly below her arena and parallels First Sinner's journal entry saying she was locked up for a "transgression lost to time"

They're also both associated with rune use

[lean temple]

Yeah I saw that theory

Interesting if true

[twin dragon]

The effigy doesn't really say much about any transgression

Maybe that wasn't public knowledge

[sinful nimbus]

The theory does not rely on that being the case

[twin dragon]

Weavers had their idolized mythos just like we do

probably

[twin dragon]

Aside from the effigy location there's nothing pointing to that it seems

[sinful nimbus]

Well that's a pretty big implication in and of itself though

[solar oriole]

It is not punishment! It's penitence. We call her FS but the Citadel calls her Penitent, First of the First. She is locked up as penitence for apostasy, not punishment.

[sinful nimbus]

Carving of Atla, Weaver of time. A prayer is etched upon it.

"By grace of your example, and our history held full in mind, our song is yours, as your name is sacred. Weaver Atla, may you be praised eternal."

Ancient Weaver condemned for a transgression lost to time

[sinful nimbus]

This is just propaganda lol

Its literally a jail

[humble peak]

Penitence is just their euphemism for punishment lol

[teal drift]

Kinda like calling a prison a place for rehabilitation even when it straight up evil

[twin dragon]

That doesn't really correlate

[teal drift]

At least some of the penitents seem to drink the kool aid though

[sinful nimbus]

How

[humble peak]

I don't see the correlation either tbh

[sinful nimbus]

There's an effigy addressed to a weaver that keeps track of history directly below a weaver that keeps track of history

[humble peak]

Nothing says FS keeps track of history though
Only that whatever sin she committed has been forgotten

[sinful nimbus]

I did not wane!
I did not forget!

Cursed to know...
The sin... the truth...

...She called us daughters... Called us divine... She lied...

She went around telling people of the Weavers' true origins

[twin dragon]

That doesn't also indicate anything

[sinful nimbus]

Amazing counterpoint

[humble peak]

Yeah she remembers the sin she committed
There's nothing to say she deliberately kept track of anything else

[sinful nimbus]

She kept track of the weavers origins as you can see after beating her

[humble peak]

Someone being really old and remembering a particular detail everyone else forgot doesn't make them a historian

[sinful nimbus]

That's her one defining characteristic though

She kept track of the weavers origins, she's heavily associated with runes

What's the one other named Weaver that fits this bill

[twin dragon]

Plus, the weavers' most important weavenest is literally named after a certain "Atla"

Doubt they'd keep it as such when one of theirs commits apostasy

[sinful nimbus]

Its not like Weavenest Atla would be in use after the Citadel was established

[twin dragon]

Runes are a good point

[sinful nimbus]

Why would it be renamed

[twin dragon]

True, though keeping it as such would make no sense either

[solar oriole]

It depends on how you see it. If you think they are pretending to be a church than yes it is propaganda, but everything brings me to think that they still see themselves as a church. them it is still religious practice.

[twin dragon]

Since they seemingly tried to forget what she did

[solar oriole]

If she denounced the Weavers why would she still help Hornet then?

[sinful nimbus]

I'm kinda doubtful anyone is going to stumble upon Atla and its name though

[lean temple]

Because she wants to overthrow GMS who lied to her and the system keeping her (FS) imprisoned.

[sinful nimbus]

Besides Hornet

[twin dragon]

Imo i still think that Atla is some sort of mythological creature in the weaver's religion

[obtuse creek]

Atla is very much described as a weaver

[twin dragon]

As the other ones that the commoners worship

[lean temple]

They don't have a religion. They worshipped GMS then deified themselves

[twin dragon]

"Of time"

[obtuse creek]

It’s a title

[lean temple]

Just like there's a Weaver of healing

And yknow, the Weaver effigy

[obtuse creek]

The pilgrims worshipped the weavers as demigods or saints

[twin dragon]

Hercules is depicted human, is hercules real therefore?

[obtuse creek]

The “of time” also is referring to Atla’s affinity for history rather than some kind of time powers

[twin dragon]

She defied the weavers own divine status

[obtuse creek]

This does not follow

[twin dragon]

Even after imprisoning gms, they still thought themselves divine

And their whole thing was being divine anyways

[twin dragon]

True, does this correlate to first sinner being atla though?

One that knows history might discover the truth, makes sense

Though i'd still say it's iffy at best

[humble peak]

Are they really delusions when you literally have divine powers though?

[obtuse creek]

I don’t really think there’s solid evidence that FS is definitely Atla though the effigy corresponding to Atla is located near her chamber and FS is largely affiliated with the history of the weavers, so there is at least some arguable circumstantial evidence

[twin dragon]

That one effigy might be an object of prayer that was allowed in the slab though

some pilgrim maybe seeking forgiveness

[twin dragon]

FS was ultimately erased from history

[obtuse creek]

That’s true, so it’s not exactly I can say it’s 100% confirmed. But I can definitely see an argument that the placement of the relic where it is isn’t random

[twin dragon]

Might be a subtle hint by team cherry yeah

[frosty gate]

I have changed my mind I think its Architects - Conductors - Vaultkeepers.

Also what's the topic now?

[edgy barn]

why? I think it makes sense for conductors to come last since their role is leading, something the weavers would do the themselves until the time for the transition began approaching.

[zinc cloud]

FS = Atla i think

[twin dragon]

Vaultkeepers were def around when weavers ruled, the only reason cardinius lets you listen to the melody is because Hornet's part weaver, even if he has some resentment towards them

[cedar owl]

idk why exactly the weavers would allow worship of someone they deemed a heretic but sure whatever makes you happy

[twin dragon]

It wasn't really for them to worship

[cedar owl]

atla was worshipped

whoever the FS was, the weavers have probably disappeared her from all history books

[twin dragon]

By the pilgrims

[obtuse creek]

The closest thing the relics resemble is the hagiolatry of certain older Christian sects (Catholicism, most Orthodox sects, some more conservative Protestant sects like Episcopalianism/Anglicanism) and Mahayana Buddhism so I am largely convinced that the effigies did correspond to semi-legendary historical figures in Pharloom’s history. Given all are located near a Weaver corpse (or FS) they might have been used by pilgrims in those spots

[twin dragon]

Weaver of time could be the literal meaning

Instead of one depicting love for history

though the effigy seems to depict her as someone who's explicitly related to history

[obtuse creek]

Do you naturally correspond with people in such a condescending manner or is this just an off day for you? Tone it down.

It’s possible the Atla effigy predates her imprisonment as there were certainly people that lived in Pharloom prior to GMS’ overthrow

[twin dragon]

Old pharloom inhabitants likely worshipped gms

Weaver worship began once the citadel was active

But first sinner wouldn't have to be imprisoned the first day

[obtuse creek]

Would not her alleged divine children be an object of worship

[twin dragon]

Possibly, but we find those effigies in places were the pilgrims go through to climb to the citadel

[zinc cloud]

when does coral tower/forest fit into this? also the ant tribe? was it before it or during those events?

[obtuse creek]

Again I’m not really even that attached to the FS = Atla theory I’m just laying out a potential argument for it

[twin dragon]

even one in the slab

[frosty gate]

I was thinking, maybe they put the Conductors in charge to form the Choir and to sing for them, then they hid their secrets with the Vaultkeepers

[twin dragon]

Plus, i don't think the religion was centered around the weavers themselves when gms was around

[frosty gate]

I'm still not convinced that the Weavers did imprison FS, I think there's something weird there

[twin dragon]

As they were made mostly to serve

[obtuse creek]

Honestly the slab timeline is weird and sketchy because if GMS put FS in the slab why did her sisters just let her rot in there after overthrowing her

[sinful nimbus]

The person who holds the Atla effigy is also locked up in jail

Doesn't seem allowed per se

[twin dragon]

Def the weavers

[obtuse creek]

In the apostasy section of the slab lol

[frosty gate]

FS was already dead when she was put in there

[twin dragon]

they would probably take it away

[sinful nimbus]

Well you can sneak stuff in

[lean temple]

Makes sense. Tho interesting they decided to preserve their secrets instead of like burning them. But from Hornet's comments on Scrollreaders it seems they can't exactly make out what's written anymore

[twin dragon]

doubt why one would keep sinning knowing whoever they're praising is of heretical nature

[sinful nimbus]

"Why is an apostate sinning"

[frosty gate]

But why would it be the Weavers when the exposure of the lie was what made them rebel against GMS. Should I just assume that they imprisoned FS, then realized she was right and said "Oopsie lets sleep momma"

[sinful nimbus]

Their religious propaganda relied on the lie

[frosty gate]

There's a piece missing there

[twin dragon]

there wouldn't be the slab while gms was around

it was built with the citadel

[twin dragon]

if they were punished once for it

[lean temple]

Yeah I mean the Weavers themselves seem pretty selfish, maybe they did figure that they should do something about GMS and leave

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers claimed themselves to be divine children even when the Citadel was around, obviously a weaver pointing out that this isn't true would be locked up

But I'd also like to point out that AFAIK there's no direct evidence that the lie is the cause of their rebellion in the first place

[frosty gate]

Yes, but it could also just be that the Slab was built around FS , you literally access it from some hidden passage

[lean temple]

Yeah, and they also just wanted to rule it seems

[sinful nimbus]

The cell has Citadel iconography

[twin dragon]

They seemed to want to escape their "servitude"

nothing to do with how they came to be

[sinful nimbus]

Its a person who went against Citadel propaganda locked up in a Citadel prison its not that hard to figure out that the Citadel is who locked her up

Heck it even uses the same system of tracking prisoners and their punishments

[twin dragon]

The text on the effigy also seems to imply she was widely worshipped

[sinful nimbus]

In the past

[lapis creek]

I think if the weavers really didnt want her locked up they wouldnt be calling her an apostate

the record would have been changed somehow

unless they don't know she's there

[twin dragon]

A devout would not keep worshipping a heretic though

And if they weren't a devout, they wouldn't be worshipping shit in the first place

[sinful nimbus]

What makes you assume the person locked in the Apostasy portion of prison is a devout to the Citadel lol

[twin dragon]

the literal weaver effigy???

[sinful nimbus]

I mean fair enough

[ember river]

I could see it in a variety of ways

[frosty gate]

I really don't understand what the hell was up with the Weavers.

I read something somewhere and now I'm thinking, are there just two sets of Weavers and we're not looking at things right? Like, were there Weavers who left after GMS was slept and others that stayed trying to deal with her?

Still, what would even be the detonator for them to lull GMS if not the lie? Egocentrism?

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not sure they necessarily knew Atla was FS in that case

[ember river]

The very first interpretation I got while playing was that weaver faith was prosecuted at some point

[twin dragon]

it couldn't be public info in any way

[lapis creek]

the effigy bug's needolin dialogue suggests he's focused on some light outside the slab

[ember river]

But that doesn't really make sense either

[ember river]

Since when is it confirmed that Atla was FS

[twin dragon]

They want to escape from their "servitude"

[ember river]

If she was an apostate I doubt they'd name the largest weavenest after her

[humble peak]

It's odd that we see both Widow and FS have been punished in some sense, despite having opposing alignments

[twin dragon]

Could've been before, but the evidence is very iffy

[ember river]

Especially considering how far they go to remove their identity when they go into the slab

[frosty gate]

No I believe Cardinius can read the scrolls, it's the big dudes who Hornet is unsure if they can.
I guess they didn't want to erase history, they wanted to keep it hidding for posterity maybe? I wonder if there even where records of the Lie, there were records of GMS

[humble peak]

The big dudes are the scrollreaders I'm pretty sure

[frosty gate]

That makes sense but I feel like, if that was the case, the whole Silken Lie is so fucking pointless

[frosty gate]

"Did they ever truly understand those inscrutable scrolls? Or is it all merely pretence, an endless act to maintain their order's station within the Citadel?"

[humble peak]

yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Effigy below First Sinner's arena

Carving of Atla, Weaver of time. A prayer is etched upon it.

"By grace of your example, and our history held full in mind, our song is yours, as your name is sacred. Weaver Atla, may you be praised eternal."
First Sinner entry
Ancient Weaver condemned for a transgression lost to time

Both are associated with rune use

[humble peak]

I think at least one of us isn't understanding the other

[sinful nimbus]

Weavenest Atla was not in use by the time the Citadel was established

[ember river]

Weavers in general are associated with runes

[twin dragon]

It was a big deal to them, lied to for their entire lives

[sinful nimbus]

Atla moreso than usual

[frosty gate]

Yeah i just don't really understood why you pointed out the Scrollreaders are the big dude

[lapis creek]

except for the endless stream of religious zealots they could turn into slave labour

[twin dragon]

Hornet remarks how FS was a special case with how she could weave runes

[ember river]

Where is Atla tied to runes

[sinful nimbus]

Presumably leading the Weavenest dedicated to developing runes to trap GMS
First Sinner is stated to be the Weaver who likely first developed runes

Cmon

[twin dragon]

They think that runes = history

[ember river]

Weavenest Atla made more stuff than runes

[sinful nimbus]

What

[humble peak]

Was she, actually?
When is Atla associated with Runes?

[sinful nimbus]

So?

[lapis creek]

i think runes became ubiquitous enough that the association isn't very strong

[twin dragon]

If atla's the weaver of history

[ember river]

The snare setter is more technological in nature than runic, not to mention runes are pretty much the way Weavers have to cast magic

[sinful nimbus]

Its supplemental evidence yes

[lapis creek]

fs doesnt show up in that spot in wa near snare setter either

[twin dragon]

While the weavenest itself seems to have been built far way to specifically find a way to get rid of gms

[sinful nimbus]

The Snare Setter uses runes idk what you're even saying

[vestal swan]

it's technology for setting rune traps?

[ember river]

So yes, Weavenest Atla made runes like every other weaver did for their magical supertechnology

[humble peak]

No, Hornet remarks that weaving runes is super common these days, and that FS may have been the first to do so (making her notable)

[lapis creek]

which doesnt disprove anything but im just saying everyone was involved in the rune thing

[sinful nimbus]

Well yeah but Atla was presumably of high authority in Weavenest Atla

[twin dragon]

Back then it wasnt so special

[ember river]

And the servitors are also rune automata, literally everything the weavers did ran on runes, even current cog constructs and the Pale King's moulds use runes as well

[twin dragon]

The weavenest as a whole was made to fight off gms

[cedar owl]

that guy was arrested because he failed to sing. he was holding on to an effigy because he was still faithful

[frosty gate]

And I totally get that, but instead of saying "Thanks for revealing the truth sister, we should fuck GMS up" they killed her and imprisoned her??????

Looking at things this way just makes it seem like the Weavers are fucking insane.

[ember river]

Weavenest Atla just seems like a weapons lab

[ember river]

The current theory is that the discovery was made while weavers were in power

[twin dragon]

They did that post gms, plus, what happened with the countless people burned alive for making scientific progress in religious times

It hurt their propaganda, their pride

[ember river]

They overthrew GMS because they thought she was holding them back and preventing them from ruling as the gods they were, then FS kinda told them they weren't actually gods

[sinful nimbus]

Atla is the only named weaver associated with the Weavenest's development of rune technology

What's the one other weaver we know of associated with runes to that extent

[humble peak]

how is Atla associated with that?

[twin dragon]

The weavenest doesn't seem exclusively related to runes though, there's eva, silklight

[frosty gate]

You mean the Whiteward? I'm pretty sure that was done by the Conductors but at this point I could be wrong

[sinful nimbus]

This is also all ignoring the fact that the effigy is literally found beneath FS's cell

[sinful nimbus]

How is Atla associated with Weavenest Atla?

[humble peak]

I think they mean irl lol

[twin dragon]

I mean a comparison to what happened IRL

its similar

[humble peak]

How is Weavenest Atla associated specifically with making runes?

Every Weavenest has a bunch of runes

[sinful nimbus]

Silklight and Eva both take advantage of runes but this isn't relevant

[ember river]

We don't really know how the weavenests are named, IRL places have the names of people to honour them

[twin dragon]

How does eva

[ember river]

Again, literally EVERYTHING the weavers made runs on runes

[cedar owl]

the game explicitly tells us why that bug was sent to the slab. but if you like the atla theory so much I wont take it away from you

[twin dragon]

Silk does not equal runes

[sinful nimbus]

How is that at all relevant

[twin dragon]

what log is the effigy bug

[ember river]

The only weavenest you can find the Servitor Boran is the Mt Fay one, so that one's also associated with "rune development" I guess

[lapis creek]

atla being the historian weaver also fits pretty well with first sinner, who discovered a secret about the history of her people and has some dream nail dialogue like 'i did not forget'

[sinful nimbus]

Why the bug was sent to the slab is irrelevant as I conceded like 30 minutes ago

Bro is late to the party

[lapis creek]

i dont think it's strong enough but it's nice

[cedar owl]

he wasnt arrested for worshipping a fake weaver or whatever that thing you said earlier was

[sinful nimbus]

HK fans try to read challenge

[frosty gate]

Oh I got too inmersed.

You know what, I'll go along with this theory because I honestly got nothing that says no, but holy fucking shit if that's the case the Weavers are just brats

[sinful nimbus]

,

[twin dragon]

it can be relevant, if its related to the effigy they hold

[lapis creek]

did the slavery not convince you of this

[ember river]

We don't really know at what point the underworks were established

[twin dragon]

Post weaver most likely

They couldn't really replicate what they did

[ember river]

It's safe to assume there was a substantial remodeling of the citadel after they left

[sinful nimbus]

Idk why the Citadel technology would've came later

[cedar owl]

oh sorry for not reading the point you said 30 minutes ago when I want here, anyway enjoy the rest of your afternoon

[sinful nimbus]

Actually that message was sent 2 minutes ago but whatever

[frosty gate]

Actually I think it was one of the first things, its the foundations of the Citadel.

[lapis creek]

bait used to be bait

[ember river]

It's wholly different to what the Weavers build both in aspect and operation
It's also themed a lot more around the citadel bugs than weavers

[sinful nimbus]

We know the Weavers invented the Architects who made technology and stuff

[ember river]

The foundation of the citadel was the cradle, it was the very base

[ember river]

You've got to be trolling now

[sinful nimbus]

What

I'm not above trolling but literally nothing in that was nonsensical

[ember river]

There's no way this is a serious statement

[sinful nimbus]

"Everything I disagree with is ragebait"

[ember river]

Nowhere in the game is it even close to stating the weavers designed the architect

[lapis creek]

me when i lie

[frosty gate]

My fucking God Gas you're gonna make me agree with Star

[sinful nimbus]

They're programmed to listen to Weavers

[frosty gate]

They are literally made by the Weavers

[ember river]

They are nothing like actual automata the weavers built

In both form and function

[sinful nimbus]

OK and

[ember river]

They are programmed to preserve pharloom

[frosty gate]

Early tech

[humble peak]

Twelfth Architect says she has explicit directions to serve Hornet since she is a Weaver

[frosty gate]

"Bug-Red? I am a m-m-maker. Yes. Enemy. No. I am an Architect. Only an Architect. To build-automate is not choice. It is our nature-directive-c-c-c-cage.
You are weave-type, yes, a first child. Rare-e-e-extinct? Or not it does so seem."

[ember river]

She has directives to aid Pharloom's children, Twelfth also claims that they revere Weavers for the examples of technology they left. Had she been an early design of the Weavers she would have seen that technology be created, not an example for her to follow, there's no reason she wouldn't be aware of the specifics of it

Also

That heart is an inspired form, conceived by the first of my line for a knight of cog and blade.
In it, I see my predecessor's talent, immense, now lost-forgotten. I could never create-copy a work s-s-so fine.

[frosty gate]

"An Architect's work owes much to the art of the f-f-first children. They set expert standard for the tools and talents of Pharloom eternal."

[humble peak]

Well she is the twelfth architect. She came after a line.
So she wouldn't have been there at the start

[lapis creek]

the first architect didnt even have to be an early creation

[humble peak]

TA says the Sentinels had the job during the establishment of the Citadel to bring bugs in.
If we assume the Citadel was established under the Weavers, that solidly puts the cogwork automata as in their same timeline

[sinful nimbus]

Either way though the 12th architect saying that the Architect's work owes to the weavers implies they did similar things and thus would also have the need for an Underworks

[frosty gate]

"Heartbreaking: The worst person you know made a great point"

[humble peak]

rude?

[frosty gate]

Not you

[lapis creek]

theres also a sleepy weaver in the underworks

[humble peak]

rude either way tbh
Y'all gotta chill

[lapis creek]

but idk if thats super important

[ember river]

For an Underworks, sure, but we've never seen Weavers build anything that mechanical in any other place. Keep in mind Pharloom has been around for a long, long time, I wouldn't put it beyond the abilities of the bugs that took over to change it once they couldn't properly maintain the original structure

[frosty gate]

Star is extremely rude most of the time, I'm allowed to be rude to them at least once

[lapis creek]

yeah fuck you star

[sinful nimbus]

MODS

[ember river]

Though I'd have to reconsider the Architects' place in the timeline, seemingly the First Architect existed and was already making extremely advanced shit before the creation of the core

Which subsequently means they knew how to make silkfly automata back then?

[frosty gate]

Ah yes the Timeline, the accursed Timeline where NOTHING FITS

[lethal burrow]

oh god fuck implies sex which will definitely make the mods ban them

[ember river]

I'll never forgive TC for using weavers, GMS and the current administration interchangeably whenever they feel like it

[frosty gate]

This is just a gif of me trying to piece my Google Sheet together

[sinful nimbus]

...It would not equal one billionth of the hate for Silksong I feel at this micro-bell-toll.

[ember river]

Because if architects WERE made during the weaver rule, then the whiteward was already turning corpses into silkflies and putting them into robots

[frosty gate]

I SWEAR TO GOD THEY SAY CITADEL SO MANY TIMES BUT THERE WERE AT LEAST TWO DIFFERENT LEADERS IN THE CITADEL

[lethal burrow]

yes?

[ember river]

Which doesn't really make sense for weavers to do that I'd say

[lapis creek]

why not

[frosty gate]

Wasn't Whiteward started by Conductors?

[lethal burrow]

why not

[lapis creek]

theyre the silk users

[sinful nimbus]

I mean...

[lapis creek]

the silk injections were started by conductors but whiteward existed prior i think

[sinful nimbus]

I would be surprised if this was not weavermake

[lethal burrow]

silkflys are in alta so if it was a conductor project, it was done under the sanction of the Weavers

[humble peak]

where is this anyway?

[sinful nimbus]

Its a silk soar room iirc?

[ember river]

The caretaker refers to the current bugs as its users, Weavers are already extremely capable silk users and already long lived

[lapis creek]

ok the choir do fight with silk

[ember river]

We also don't know if conductors were a lesser rank during the weaver rule either

[humble peak]

whiteward most likely started after weavers left I think

[lethal burrow]

ye Weaver architecture

[ember river]

Hm

Interesting

[frosty gate]

Well i'll be damned

This does not make sense in a timeline

[lethal burrow]

We just have to reassess some assumptions

[sinful nimbus]

I do not see how this doesn't make chronological sense

[ember river]

God damn it TC, why couldn't you use architecture like in HK

[ember river]

It makes chronological sense but then Weavers randomly switch through technologies that are NEVER used together for whatever reason

There's zero clockwork in the weavenest and zero weavenest stuff in the Citadel

[twin dragon]

they do...?

[lapis creek]

the core exists to sustain the song we know this

[sinful nimbus]

Hallownest architecture was so lovely ❤️

[lethal burrow]

City of tears doesn't have any white palace stuff 💔

[frosty gate]

Maybe they started the Whiteward way later

[lethal burrow]

maybe

[twin dragon]

Blurry picture of a few spires

[ancient sinew]

My glorious kingdom

Hallownest had actual infrastructure

[ember river]

It's still overall pointy, tall, metallic and industrialized, compare it to the other tribes and towns in the game

[ancient sinew]

Pharloom has slaves slaves slaves slaves slaves slaves and more slaves

[lethal burrow]

you could argue that Weaver and Citadel stuff is largely similar apart from the colour scheme as well. One of them is golden and the other is more black

[ember river]

The tribes thing still holds true in silksong but for some reason weavenests are wholly different to the citadel despite having been made by the same folk

[twin dragon]

You're telling me you would design a megachurch the same way you design a top secret research base huh

[frosty gate]

I gotta make more changes to my sheet again

[fading shard]

the hell did I miss

[sinful nimbus]

OK well Hornet implies Hallownest had that too tbf

[frosty gate]

Gas made me agree with Star and I'm rethinking my sheet choices

[ancient sinew]

can i get a false

[lethal burrow]

well, it's not forget the maggots

[humble peak]

no, Hornet questions if Hallownest might have had it

[fading shard]

made you agree with star on what

[twin dragon]

The citadel definitely went through a few modifications after the high caste took over, though whiteward does look a bit like the weavenests

[fading shard]

I am so confused T_T

[frosty gate]

The Weavers made the Architects

[sinful nimbus]

That means its a plausible idea unless Hornet is just an idiot who doesn't know anything

[ancient sinew]

The maggots aren’t an example of institutionalized slavery though, actually the opposite

[humble peak]

yeah, but it's not confirmed

[fading shard]

I mean I actually think that's plausible

I'm not saying it's 100% definitive but it's definetely a possibility

[ember river]

The illumination and transport use completely different technology, apparently Weavers also made extremely advanced cogwork automata as well?

[frosty gate]

I mean it's pretty blatant it happened

[fading shard]

I mean yeah

[lethal burrow]

The core came after the sentinels which came from the first architect...
The top of the cog work core was never finished...
The caldron was post weaver...,
Whiteward appears to be built on top of a weave nest...

There are pieces here, but I can't put them together

[ember river]

Though one could argue the First Architect could've been more like the ones the Weavers made and it kept creating new architects with diminishing returns or something

[humble peak]

top of the core wasn't finished?

[lethal burrow]

yea 12 architect says it was only near complete

[twin dragon]

Isn't that the point of the architects as a whole, that they're meant to last forever but it's really impossible for them to?

[ancient sinew]

I think it’s actually pretty unlikely when everything in HK leads us to the conclusion that slavery did not exist as an institution

[humble peak]

oh huh

[lethal burrow]

presumably, the core was a project to automate the lullaby, but it never finished

[humble peak]

hmm maube

[vernal swallow]

by the way guys we can agree on this:
Seamstress - Sheo
Pinstress - Mato
that one dead pinstress - Oro

[ember river]

Yeah, I just mean that if the First Architect was weaver-made it would be very weird for them to make an extremely smart cogwork construct that had nothing to do with what they usually do

[humble peak]

seems way complicated huh
like dude just make a music box

[twin dragon]

It seems mostly of high caste make

[sinful nimbus]

ohhh the Cogwork Core was never completed huh

[foggy fractal]

as in personality wise ?

[twin dragon]

As weaver shit kinda needs runes and silk

[sinful nimbus]

I was confused why it needed to be activated manually

[ember river]

Cogwork automata also use silk

[humble peak]

they were saying the first architect may have been like, more weaver-y
and they gradually diverged over the generations

[twin dragon]

flies*

[ember river]

And I think in the cogwork defender entry runes are mentioned too

[twin dragon]

Silkflies

[ember river]

Silk too, refer to the clawmaiden

[ember river]

Wait, someone else said that too?

[humble peak]

clawmaidens are explicitely early automata, right?

[frosty gate]

It had to be finished

[vernal swallow]

for seamstress and pinstress yes, but that one dead pinstress is found in one of the most annoying parts of the game, same as oro.

[humble peak]

the person you replied to..?

[lethal burrow]

Maybe they went with whiteward because robots weren't really viable with their pre-existing stuff (seems like they always need to refill on silk)

[ember river]

Yeah, they use a LOT of silk, but why wouldn't posterior automata also use silk?

[frosty gate]

"Last edict of the Conductors. "And lo, is eternity sustained. By Architect's claw, we welcome that final form, of dial and rotor, and soul gladly given. The perfect, unfaltering voice."

[humble peak]

posterior automata
ass robots?

[ancient sinew]

Weakest members of the kingdom of Hallownest. Generally looked down upon and forced to do menial labour
The wording here clearly implies it wasn’t an explicit institution. If there actually was a huge institution of maggots being kept as slaves PK could have eliminated that but if it was just a case of them generally being discriminated against and not getting good jobs he couldn’t really have done much. Now obviously they were still treated badly but there is a massive difference between that and the entire slave kingdom, Hornet is talking out of her ass which is something she often does

[humble peak]

thought this was about the dancers ngl

[frosty gate]

The dancers are part of the Core

[humble peak]

trueing

[ancient sinew]

Also Hornet isn’t even presenting herselt as a reliable narrator there she’s considering a possibility

Maybe she shouldn’t do that because she’s an idiot who knows nothing about running a kingdom

A lot of the time she acts like an authority on something she knows fuck all about

[ember river]

Oh, so that refers to the core

[lethal burrow]

then why the heck does 12th architect say "At the height of our core, there is means-s-s-system, near complete..."

[ember river]

It makes a lot of sense actually

[humble peak]

literally all she says is "I wonder if Hallownest was fucked up too and I just never noticed"

[ancient sinew]

Which is a bizarre thing to consider

[ember river]

Perhaps it just needed the choir souls to be transfered into it?

[ancient sinew]

It’s almost like she didn’t live there

[frosty gate]

Maybe because at the top, the Puzzle we solved was incomplete?

[lethal burrow]

You don't call an alarm clock incomplete just because you forgot to set the time

[humble peak]

is it though?
it's a perfectly reasonable logbook entry

[humble peak]

though in this case it's more like the opposite of an alarm clock ;)

[frosty gate]

I understand your frustration, but one has to be wrong here. Conductors says it was Finished and Architect say "Near finishe"

[ember river]

Well, considering we find a living conductor and the transference log is their Final Edict, I'd say the Haunting overcame the Citadel before it could have been truly finished

So the soul couldn't be given, and thus it remained unfinished

[ancient sinew]

In a meta sense it is incredibly silly because the player knows it not to be true so all it does is present Hornet as misinformed, in-universe it adds nothing beyond adding the notion that Hornet considers Hallownest could have been built through the worst possible means which is something she neither explains nor elaborates upon

It’s a pretty useless line

Hornet says a lot of shit that is just objectively wrong though

[ember river]

I mean, Hallownest was planned to last forever on a mountain of child corpses but she already knows about that

[humble peak]

You're reading way too much into it
Hornet is just being introspective
It's not meant to be a huge lore drop

[fading shard]

the worst hallownest had where maggots that were discriminateed against racially

[lethal burrow]

One of them is talking in the past tense, and one of them is talking in the present tense, also the conductor thing doesn't say it was finished just that it was ordered and that they welcomed it

[fading shard]

but it was a racism problem

[sinful nimbus]

Why does Hornet not have a single interesting journal entry

One that doesn't add anything would be kinda whatever but they're all like this

[fading shard]

Not a slavery problem

[ancient sinew]

It’s not introspective though it’s a bizarre conclusion to draw and she doesn’t explain her thought process

Wrong reply

[lethal burrow]

This one's pretty interesting

[humble peak]

owned

[ember river]

More like they were Pariahs who would just get fat and never work
Now enlist into the Guard! Long live the Pale King!

[fading shard]

they were given manual jobs

[humble peak]

Most of Hornet's entries are just her own thoughts
I don't see anything wrong with that

[ancient sinew]

And racism isn’t something that was really within PK’s power to get rid of

[sinful nimbus]

Why are her thoughts so shallow 💔 😭

[ancient sinew]

You can’t make racism illegal

[ember river]

Because otherwise they'd laze around

[ember river]

Isn't racism illegal right now?

[ancient sinew]

Uh… no

[fading shard]

Ah yes affective yet she gives the pale king all the beef over a trolley problem

[sinful nimbus]

Hunter had actually interesting thoughts that expanded upon the world, like wondering if soul clinging to carcasses is what made meat taste fresh

[lethal burrow]

We are power scaling racism now

[steep talon]

idk dude that sounds kinda racist/j

[fading shard]

racism is a abstract concept

[lethal burrow]

Is that large city level or mountain level tho?

[fading shard]

universe level I guess

[steep talon]

small hipo level

[ember river]

Lmao

[silk dirge]

you see last night i was talking about how this channel isnt ready for the real argument which is time zone discussion maybe its time to pull that out whenever this channel starts being silly

[fading shard]

or about the infection cells and how they came to be

[ember river]

Would Racism beat Goku though?

[fading shard]

which was infection turned to liquid, turned to mass turned to a 1 celled organism

[fading shard]

check the hunters journal if you don't believe me

or the one about the sentries

[steep talon]

hunter says a lot of random shit

[fading shard]

or nosk

[silk dirge]

i read 1 celled as 1 braincell which poses a good question who are the orange cats of silksong

[ancient sinew]

The issue is her thoughts are either incredibly shallow incredibly pretentious or present her as an authority on something she clearly knows nothing about which just makes her seem stupid and uninformed. Or she’s a raging eugenicist

[ember river]

Hunter has metaknowledge

[steep talon]

id say like 20% is kinda just memes from hunter

[fading shard]

I would not call the living manifestation of the infection that was used by the radiance to physically cling onto uninfected bugs as orange cats

[steep talon]

my favourite one - i dont know what this even is

[silk dirge]

bell beast does not seem like a 1 braincell orange cat

[ember river]

The other 80% is him eating random civilians

[silk dirge]

ik im just questioning whos the orange cats of silksong

[steep talon]

i love hunter

[ancient sinew]

He doesn’t

Hunter’s entries are far more interesting than Hornet’s

[silk dirge]

ok tbh nuu entries wouldve been cool

[lethal burrow]

infection is Fanta, lifeblood is blue gushers, soul is roach milk, void is Vegemite.

[silk dirge]

i like nuu way more than hunter

[fading shard]

Honestly idk what's worse the infective air the dreams being a form to be infected or a physical form of it that just latches itself onto you

[ancient sinew]

He doesn’t act like an authority on everything acknowledges his limitations and is very entertaining in addition to being a bit of a philosopher with some genuinely neat observations at times

[sinful nimbus]

Nuu could've fleshed out the cuisine aspect of the lore

[fading shard]

What's worse in your eyes

[ancient sinew]

Hunter is a smart guy

[silk dirge]

i forever am curious how does a wingsmould tastes like

[ancient sinew]

And he’s very perceptive

[steep talon]

really?

[silk dirge]

damn can he do my physics homework for me

[fading shard]

Nuu is annoying

[ancient sinew]

Hornet acts smart but she’s an idiot

[silk dirge]

i love the way nuu wanders around the world

[fading shard]

Hunter actually had stuff going for him and a huge amount info given amount him to characterize him as one of the best chars in hollow knight

nuu is just an annoying kid that wants to taste everything

[sinful nimbus]

That's based

[frosty gate]

"Final form"

[steep talon]

ah okay. yeah i guess. kinda funny she can just go into voltnest and for some reason knows about it beforehand

[silk dirge]

hunter did not have a lot of info on him last time i checked

[ancient sinew]

Nuu entries would probably still be better than Hornet

[lethal burrow]

Yes, that's referring to the bugs in my opinion

[ancient sinew]

More food lore

[fading shard]

He gave a ton of lore to us about hallownest

[lethal burrow]

the certainty of steel

[ancient sinew]

Hunter also cooks and seasons his food

[fading shard]

Seriously you have no idea how much info we have on hollow knight comes from this one guy

[frosty gate]

The bugs?

[silk dirge]

i mean id assume nuu and the hunter are part of some special clan

[fading shard]

Hunter has a journal entry that states he does not have a tribe

[lethal burrow]

yeah, the mechanical bugs

[silk dirge]

yeah but we dont know much about him

[fading shard]

We actually do

[ember river]

Probably bad, since it's a "tortured mixture of void and soul"

[fading shard]

We know he wants his potential kids to be stronger then him

[lethal burrow]

So Vegemite and roach milk

[ancient sinew]

Hornet’s “I like fluffy things” and “I want to commit fly genocide” vs Hunter’s “so this one time I got really high on this shit also I killed my dog lmao”

[ember river]

If it tasted good it would lick itself to feel better knowing it's delicious

[silk dirge]

then why does nuu give you the same mark as hunter

[fading shard]

he once tried out to have a companion of his own like the god tamer but couldn't help to hunt it

[lethal burrow]

Union

[fading shard]

He finds money to be worthless

[silk dirge]

why is that second statement something sliwa would say 😭

[steep talon]

yeah thats kinda wild. i wonder who the hell started it. hunter doesnt really seem like the type of guy to learn from teachers

[fading shard]

he wondeers how much longer he can last against the infection

he mentions how much he enjoys eating maggots

and......goes into way too detail

[ancient sinew]

Hunter has a lot of neat observations

[fading shard]

goes into some stuff regarding the sentries

[ancient sinew]

He’s a bit of a philosopher

[silk dirge]

can nuu give me a rugelach recipe using crustnuts

[fading shard]

honestly he gives a good amount of helpful info about them

[steep talon]

some bugs are so weak, so miserable and pathetic, it gives no satisfaction to see them hunted. funny guy

[ember river]

He also says he eats grubs on sight

[fading shard]

seriously the heavy sentries even though they look fat and weak were actually so quick and cunning that a small portion of that went through to their infected form

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet could never write about Hopper Gushers

[fading shard]

and mentions tehm being quite skilled and even says they are a threat

if you face multiple of them

[silk dirge]

whats the equivalent of cheese in silksong

[fading shard]

Mentions the sheer power of the great sentries

[ember river]

That entry was actually what Zote told the Hunter after he beat them and left

[vestal swan]

Hunter was the true gourmand

[silk dirge]

who the fuck is great gourmand even

bro just fucking eats

[vestal swan]

It's just some old rich bastard that eats whatever he wants

[steep talon]

lol

[fading shard]

Yk speaking of grubs they are great man

almolst everybody loves the little goobers

[vestal swan]

Dude slept through the apocalypse just to wait on his butler to cook him a good meal

[fading shard]

Like listen lore aside, they are genuinely awesome both gameplay wise and character wise

[silk dirge]

grubs are great but like fleas are so good

[ember river]

The collector loves them the most

[frosty gate]

You mean they refer to the "Final form" of the Architects?

[silk dirge]

a true flea friend does not speak badly of grubs

[fading shard]

they don't speak but just their behaviour and characteristics make people just love the guys

[sinful nimbus]

Grubs are probably more interesting lore wise but the flea festival is peak

[fading shard]

I'll say this the flea caravan is better then the grubhub

[steep talon]

i guess gourmand must be kinda strong willed to resist the haunting. at least i cant imagine gourmand wouldnt have silk in them

[sinful nimbus]

However the fact that fleas are mandatory kinda leaves a sour taste in my mouth

[silk dirge]

big flea is the best character team cherry ever made

[fading shard]

Yes I call grub father area grubhub

[fading shard]

I'll say it like this the fleas and grubs are both awesome in their own ways

[steep talon]

really. do we even know anything about grub mysteries?

[fading shard]

Like I think we can all agree the Grubs are awesome

[sinful nimbus]

Grub singing is rumored to have restorative powers

[fading shard]

and so are the fleas

[sinful nimbus]

Which is reflected in Grubsong

[silk dirge]

i forgot the meme but its like a true flea lover never speaks ill of grubs

[steep talon]

like vetruvian grub seems like memes. and grubberfly having some sort of gem and emitting blade of holy power is a bit strange

[sinful nimbus]

Grubberfly's elegy also imbues your weapon with a "holy strength" and Grubberflies themselves are interesting

[steep talon]

how so?

[sinful nimbus]

Its a cool lifecycle

[steep talon]

uh huh

[fading shard]

The weird mural in the collectors secret room is so strange

It just says that therei s something more goingo n with them

and also I'm sorry why is there a canonical grub pet guide

[fading shard]

Yes that's a thing

[steep talon]

its just memes. like what could it even be

[fading shard]

The bugs in hallownest had grubs as pets

[sinful nimbus]

Yes that also gives more characterization

[silk dirge]

ok but can we talk about how fucked up this is

[sinful nimbus]

Collector was also fun

[ember river]

The face of an angel

[fading shard]

The two are not the same species

[fading shard]

like wtf

[silk dirge]

they look similar tho

[steep talon]

true...

[fading shard]

And no that's not said in the game

[silk dirge]

and i was like what the fuck

[fading shard]

it's from some random outside team cherry made thing

of grub pet guide

and it says about how they are so friendly and sweet

[ember river]

Collector is one of the most interesting things in the city of tears, it doesn't give soul but it is clearly the inside of a kingsmould, and IIRC they do give soul

[fading shard]

and then go on to say that grubs have a huge appetite

[steep talon]

is it canon? seemed like flavor for the plush to me

[ember river]

So the armor itself is charged with soul?

[ancient sinew]

It’s probably soul

[fading shard]

but don't feed them flesh something bad happens if you give tehm flesh

[silk dirge]

also i have good news for people here apparently team cherry has been messing in the code with something labeled "bay" and considering we know team cherry is moving onto dlc soon

[fading shard]

which I'm sorry

[steep talon]

but you also only fight them in dreams, so idk

[lethal burrow]

not the architects specifically but that's the idea

[vestal swan]

It's really old but doesn't conflict with anything as far as I remember

[fading shard]

why the hell happens if you give a grub flesh

[sinful nimbus]

Soul mages are not allat rare tbh

[ember river]

It turns into a mimic

[steep talon]

ah ok. funny i guess.

[sinful nimbus]

Grubs slugs snails stilkin what's next

[fading shard]

Mimics are confirmed in the journal entry to not be grubs

[steep talon]

slugs?

[fading shard]

And instead be a creature that can mimic anothers appereance

[ember river]

I know, it probably just seeks more flesh I guess

[vestal swan]

Crazy speculation isn't lore

[steep talon]

yeah, pharloom bay is reaaaaaal!!!

probably

[silk dirge]

i mean pharloom bay was like the most likely cut area to be coming back i think

[sinful nimbus]

Salubra conjures an apparition that gives infinite soul... A sylphean slug, if you will

[fading shard]

Yk what I want that in future dlc hornet get's to confront the pale king in a memory

[fading shard]

listen the pale king was by far one of the most important characters in hollow knight

and more important then the white lady

[silk dirge]

red memory: the cool daniel
this: the even cooler daniel

[steep talon]

i never thought of salubra as a slug. but i suppose it makes sense

[ancient sinew]

I don’t want SS to tarnish PK’s memory further

[sinful nimbus]

She's called one in the official artbook

[ancient sinew]

PK’s story came to a satisfying end in HK

It doesn’t need to go further than that

[steep talon]

oh ok

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah ETV was so satisfying

[fading shard]

listen I want hornet and pale king stuff

[ancient sinew]

[fading shard]

Besides WE never get to see the pale king actually do anything live that isn't in the birthplace memory

[ancient sinew]

DNM was perfect I’m not hearing it

[silk dirge]

why are there no banana slugs in hk or sk

[fading shard]

We don't even know how he speaks live

[silk dirge]

i need my banana slugs

[fading shard]

The best we get is again the birthplace memory

[ancient sinew]

Because he doesn’t need to, he haunts the narrative

[steep talon]

hk doesnt take place in americas(good)

[silk dirge]

say that again

[ancient sinew]

It would cheapen his impact to have him appear in some random flashback and start yapping

[steep talon]

what if he did and he talked like mr. beast?

[fading shard]

Listen if we get the bloody white lady make an appearence then the pale king does too

[sinful nimbus]

White Lady said nothing interesting

[fading shard]

We got SOMETHING

[ancient sinew]

WL is alive in HK and is not nearly as important to the narrative as PK was

[silk dirge]

bro why do you keep randomly saying this

[deft tendon]

just spreading my theorys propaganda, its what i say whenever i enter chat lol

[fading shard]

Listen it is quite clear that Hornet has HUGE beef with her dad

[sinful nimbus]

Heck her character isn't even fleshed out more

[silk dirge]

i need to spread pst is the best timezone propaganda here

[ancient sinew]

The way PK was handled in HK was pretty perfect all the way up to DNM and I would change nothing about it

[vestal swan]

Stop

[fading shard]

people have criticized what she said about him

[deft tendon]

can i not talk about lore in the lore channel 🥀

[fading shard]

and people said how it makes no sense

because of the white lady and hers relationship

[ancient sinew]

Hornet doesn’t need to find closure she can hate her dad if she wants

[steep talon]

what did he do past dnm lmao

[fading shard]

So why not have that thing be fixed

[steep talon]

true!

[fading shard]

Listen I have none stop seen people complain about how she's a idiot for what she said about her dad

and I hate the fact that I agree with them

[steep talon]

what did she say?

[ancient sinew]

Nothing the point is it was a satisfying end to the story of the game and by extension his own character arc

[fading shard]

Like star

[steep talon]

she just called him a fool. and yeah

[vestal swan]

It's normal for white lady to be an idiot fraud and for PK to be a fraud by extension but hornet just disregarding common sense? Like white lady's not your real mom why did you pick that up

[fading shard]

You seem to have a suprising amount of hte on teh pale king

[vestal swan]

A lot of the stuff hornet says just comes across really stupid

[ancient sinew]

PK is dead and gone, erased so completely, TK inherited his mantle and his kingdom was put to rest. It’s over

[fading shard]

what she says doesn't fit hollow knight at all

[vestal swan]

Yeah that's the point

Well our point

[silk dirge]

nah its my kingdom now im stealing it

[sinful nimbus]

What does White Lady in SS add to Hornet's character

[steep talon]

damn... they didnt even capitalize on it by making it a tourist attraction

[vestal swan]

Early onset dementia

[sinful nimbus]

How does it even add to her own character 💔

[fading shard]

the white lady has dementia

[ancient sinew]

WL is boring PK is the most well written character across both games

[steep talon]

she didnt hate wl for what she did

[sinful nimbus]

The most interesting thing about her was her parallels to PK and how she was in denial over the kingdoms death

[sinful nimbus]

You can't have the yin without the yang

[silk dirge]

we about to have fucking abandoned city tourism here

city of tears = pripyat

[steep talon]

hey whatever brings in geo!!!

[sinful nimbus]

Media literacy might be dead

[steep talon]

uh ok?

[fading shard]

I mean the white lady might aswell serve as to make a lot of pale kings dubious actions not be dubious and okay

[fading shard]

Like she has a suprising amount of dialogue just giving context

that boils down to: well you see "Because of this unknown context that you didn't know about until now it's fine"

the amount of things she just gives exposition on

[silk dirge]

white lady exists to prove trees are stupid and you shouldnt take advice from talking trees

[fading shard]

She just wants to bang her husband what do you want from her T_T

it's not her fault she's like that

[silk dirge]

imagine being a tree

[ancient sinew]

One yet breathes in denial. The other died embracing the truth, desperately trying to convince himself it was all worth it.

[ember river]

A root actually

[sinful nimbus]

You get it

[ancient sinew]

It’s because WL had far less of a stake in the kingdom

Narratively Hallownest and PK are treated as one entity

[fading shard]

it's not

what

[ancient sinew]

Uh, yeah?

[fading shard]

Wdym uh yeah

[ember river]

Not as exactly the same thing, but Hallownest is portrayed as an extension of the PK

[fading shard]

on that I can agree on

[ember river]

It was his project, it was his kingdom, and when it was lost, so was he

[ancient sinew]

To the point where for all intents and purposes they are one entity

This is most clear in Elegy for Hallownest

Which is directed to Hallownest but the subject matter is PK

[abstract rivet]

It seems like The Slab has been built on top of the dried out Sands of Karakyeah?

[steep talon]

so when im entering the eternal kingdom of hallownest im entering PK, thats kinda fucked up

[abstract rivet]

also theres this ambience music that plays when you first enter Grand Gate whats that all about

[ember river]

I'm not sure if Karak reached all the way to the Slab but it is right above it

[ember river]

Making you feel grandiose

[ancient sinew]

Not only is his fate intertwined with that of the kingdom but the King’s Brand represents inheriting his will and mantle, and also for the kingdom’s future. Hell, in DNM, when Hallownest is finally put to rest his leitmotif even plays in reference to his soul finally being allowed to rest

[abstract rivet]

There's some signs of coral reef in the bottom parts of The Slab

[frosty gate]

It seems like it did, there's coral in the lower part of the Slab

[steep talon]

there are crust balls in lower portions of slab, yeah

[ember river]

Oh true, I forgot about the lower section

[abstract rivet]

i need that grand gate music

[edgy barn]

you entered PK to get the king's brand and i didn't hear you complaining.

[steep talon]

pretty metal. just built a fucking prison complex atop their dead enemies

[steep talon]

ayooo

[abstract rivet]

brutal

LIGHT?!?!??!?!?! Radiance is making a comeback confirmned