sk-lore

[slow olive]

"Here is established, by holy consent of the Conductors,
The Memorium of Pharloom.
What Is Remembered Is Never Lost. "

The lore tablet gives the implication the conductors set it up

[iron spindle]

They did an incredible incredible job with the cutscenes this time

[slow olive]

could be a bit of both

[iron spindle]

Hmm I felt it’s up to interpretation

[lethal burrow]

ari truly cooked

[iron spindle]

The elevator moment was just….literal art mastery

[limpid summit]

Maybe not an evil tyrant but I think she’s at least taken GMS’s role

Without caring about sustaining Lace

[iron spindle]

The transition to the fight with lace 2 from that cutscene NEEDS to be studied, the hype was overwhelming lol

[slow olive]

have u done act 3?

[wild zinc]

Is there any lore about the reaper crest?

[iron spindle]

Nah I want to attempt cursed child first

Gonna be hell

[slow olive]

good luck

i'd advice staying away from this channel if u havent gone through act 3 tho

[iron spindle]

I’ll probably give up if it’ll take too long cause there are other monstrous trophies to get platinum

[iron spindle]

True im heading out lol

[cedar owl]

I really like the implication of the secret harp room in the cradle that the mother was ALWAYS up there. like, she's such a failure
does not leave the house
does not cut her hair

she found a comfy spot in the cradle and by god she stayed there

[upbeat star]

She was lulled to sleep by the weavers

[slow olive]

so far i dont think there's any explicit lore about most of the crests

[upbeat star]

They wanted to keep her asleep forever but knew that wasnt a permanent solution

[slow olive]

whats the secret harp room?

[cedar owl]

yes but she was in the cradle even before that
remember those harps the weavers played in the widow cutscene?
these harps were in the cradle
she was literally always chilling up there

never left

[elder rune]

Probably based off of all of the Greymoor bugs harvesting silk for the Citadel.

Like how the Witch’s crest is based off of the Twisted Bud’s abortion.

[cedar owl]

and it makes sense she would stay in the cradle, her silk could reach all of pharloom from there

[slow olive]

that would be a fun future boss battle idea, u fight those bugs interred in the chapels where u got the crests from.

them having chapels as their grave points to their importance to the area

[upbeat star]

Imagine fighting a chorus in that tiny architect room

[slow olive]

the wanderer could have been a prominent pilgrim, the reaper could have been a leader of the greymoor bugs, the shaman could have been a warrior snail shaman

[slow olive]

it would be ironic that the cradle itself could have been GMS's throne so to speak, but was also used by the weavers as a trap for her

[barren beacon]

So is the soul of the Green Prince's lover inside the Cogwork dancers

[edgy barn]

"...Remember...
...Praise their toil...
...Honour to the reapers...
...Sow and reap...
...Pharloom flourished...
...Gather... for the many..." The needolin dialogue makes me think it is more likely to be based off the time before the citadel made the moorbugs collect silk, back when they grew crops.

[upbeat star]

Yeah

[barren beacon]

Are they still sentient?

[cedar owl]

the shaman chest might be a they/them actually
as in, it's the souls of multiple generations of shamans

[barren beacon]

Were they turned into silkflies?

[upbeat star]

The soul was split into 2 silkflies

[edgy barn]

Not silkflies. Nothing flies out of the ddancers

[cedar owl]

or the "traits" of shamans, idfk what the crests are about

[slow olive]

so the actual soul of the other green prince was in those dancers then?

[edgy barn]

it's probably the raw soul yeah

[slow olive]

wonder how they even did that

thats a pretty powerful thing to be able to do, to just get a powerful bug's soul and install it in an automaton

[upbeat star]

They did some fucked up things down in whiteward

[slow olive]

im guessing the bug needs to consent else the soul transfer wouldnt be as potent?

[edgy barn]

eh, I don't think there's any reason for that to be a condition

[vague whale]

they absolutely did not need to consent, lol, whiteward took underworkers by force

[slow olive]

well yea but those were turned into silkflies

[upbeat star]

Green Prince: "The dancers… they were the last free act of my partner ... His whole he gave, in desperate trade to see our own caves left safe. His shell and soul became the mould”

[slow olive]

that's why i think the partner giving "his whole" made his soul potent enough to power two automatons without any silkflies present

[vivid kernel]

well whiteward dealt with silk experimentation not necesarily soul like the princes

[upbeat star]

It was more than just silk there

[vivid kernel]

oh fr i didnt know

i though it was js weavers tryna use silks to make bugs immortal

or at least extend their lives

[lethal burrow]

why does khann have a thrown at the bottom and the top of his tower?

[vestal swan]

It probably fell down from the top ngl

The chasm that was supposed to be right above it is now a flat piece of rock

[vivid kernel]

woudlnt it be crazy that both the throne, khann, and ike 20 soldires all landed perfectly from the top?

[vestal swan]

It would be funny, and considering this game is lacking in the funny department I'm going to choose to believe it

[vivid kernel]

real

[random aspen]

what silksong characters do yall think would know if they get dream nailed

[humble peak]

shamans for one

[elfin minnow]

Shakra maybe

[humble peak]

shakra?? why?

[random aspen]

why

[random aspen]

yeah definitely

maybe moss druid

[humble peak]

oh maybe

[elfin minnow]

Nah nvm

[humble peak]

honestly the only other characters I can think of are GMS, Lace, and Widow
Just because they're related to higher beings (or are them directly) and those are usually shown to have some ability to tell

[vestal swan]

Shakra does not seem well taught or versed in magic, she's on baby's first journey

[upbeat star]

She has elder hu’s force attack tho

Same sound

[muted lantern]

just noticed this in the background in hunters march, is this part of some kind of nest for the smaller ants?

[upbeat star]

Ant burrows

[vestal swan]

Druid, shamans, mask maker, Eva, sinner, phantom

[humble peak]

but Lace is, in some sense, a child, GMS is uhh, would probably have similar dream nail stuff to Rad, and Widow (and other weavers)... could go either way ig
idk if to count First Sinner since they're just a memory

[humble peak]

holy fuck how did I forget mask maker and eva lmao

I mean I can see myself forgetting mask maker but eva??

Could Jiji or Jinn tell you were dream nailing them?

[vestal swan]

Uh don't think so

Bardoon WL midwife shaman and one more iirc from HK

[humble peak]

I was never convinced with Midwife
It could be read that way but it being a more mundane "what's this creepy fucker doing here fuck off" also makes sense

[wild zinc]

Do you guys think hornet becomes evil in the weaver queen ending or like

[vestal swan]

I don't remember the midwife dialogue I just remember somebody saying she could detect it like yesterday

[upbeat star]

She just becomes a ruler of pharloom not evil

[vestal swan]

She literally strings up everybody like puppets

[humble peak]

her dialogue is something like "gah! get out! get out!"

[vestal swan]

The power overwhelms her and she succumbs to the desire to take over

[humble peak]

well, the strings come down, we don't necessarily see them pick anyone up

but I do think it's a surrender to base instincts (domination) situation

[upbeat star]

Isnt that just the after math of binding? She wakes up and is morphing at the final scene

[humble peak]

not evil in the sense it's not deliberate, but she does cease to be good

[vestal swan]

I thought we saw it connect to some pilgrims? Or was that the cut ending and I have poisoned my brain

[humble peak]

there's a cut ending?

[edgy nebula]

cut ending

[upbeat star]

It just showed pharloom draped in webs

[vestal swan]

Damn it I poisoned my memory

[edgy nebula]

weaver queen just zooms into hornet as she grows arms i think

the rocks are suspended with silk midair though

[vestal swan]

Well if hornet doesn't actually cover every body in threads then she's just getting a crazy power up

[humble peak]

it's up to interpretation I think
it's strongly implied she ends up just taking GMS's place as a ruler but not quite explicit

[wild zinc]

Idk weaver queen is a bad ending so I kinda just interpreted it as “pharloom trades one tyrant for another”

[upbeat star]

You see her rapidly evolving at the end growing more arms

[humble peak]

and?

[vestal swan]

More arms equals more evil obviously

[wild zinc]

Yeah evil is stored in the extra arms

Grimace just to be a thief and have multiple arms and now he only has 2 and he’s good now so

[upbeat star]

I thought pale nails were stored in the arms

[wild zinc]

Arms can store multiple things

[humble peak]

y'all ever think about what a little shit Lace is in Snared Silk?
Like she frees hornet and sends GMS down sure
but like she literally did not have to stay there
She could have hopped at any point but chose to stay there exclusively for the drama factor
fucking things up for literally everyone lmao

[vestal swan]

Wdym hop up?

[wild zinc]

Im pretty sure she couldn’t escape from the void

[upbeat star]

Na she landed in the void

She could not get out

[humble peak]

Lemme rewatch the cutscene hold on

[wild zinc]

No wait yeah I just watched the cutscene again convinently lol yeah she totally could’ve hopped off her mom

[humble peak]

she's literally only there to spite her

[wild zinc]

In her defense she was suicidal and could never have foreseen act 3 happening

[upbeat star]

Also if gms wanted to she could have kept her there by binding her silk

Lace is made from her silk btw

[wild zinc]

Wouldn’t have that killed her tho

[humble peak]

Act 3 is literally only caused by Lace being a petty child
and yet everyone blames Hornet
and we have to save Lace

[wild zinc]

The last thing gms wants is to kill her daughter

[upbeat star]

Well hornet did set up the trap without thinking to much about it

Just trusting snail shamans is a terrible call

[humble peak]

Why?

[wild zinc]

I mean tbf Hornet did take much of the guilt herself she just said “it’s my fault” and never said “it’s partially my fault but mostly the fault of this white bitch”

[humble peak]

True

Though she's even more eager to just blame the shamans lmao

[upbeat star]

She didnt think the abyss would be invoked the moment she saw the abyss she felt guilty

[humble peak]

The shamans had a completely reasonable plan, I mean we've literally seen that dumping a light-based god into void is a very effective way to get rid of them

[wild zinc]

Eh mostly she only said that to their faces to shame them whenever she mentioned the cause of the calamity to any other bug she didn’t divert away the blame she always takes the brunt of it

[humble peak]

Hornet did nothing wrong and should stop putting the blame on herself

[wild zinc]

Shrink yourself into a bug and tell her that

[upbeat star]

I mean if you set up a trap and it ended up causing the ruin of a kingdom, like how hollownest fell, she probably has deeper reasons to feel this guilt than just her trying to take responsibility , she dosnt want another kingdom to fall

[humble peak]

I mean, Pharloom was already falling
"Change was inevitable", after all

[wild zinc]

Who do we think is a worse parent? The pale king or gms

[edgy nebula]

that's a toughie

[upbeat star]

The body count on the pale king is immense

[humble peak]

a parent? toughie indeed

[edgy nebula]

in pk's defense he had no idea the vessels werent hollow

[humble peak]

he also didn't have much of a choice and felt awful about it regardless

GMS meanwhile seems to have genuinely loved her children but they all hated her for some reason

[upbeat star]

Tho what gms did to phantom is fucked up

[humble peak]

so like ig she wasn't very good at the mom thing

[humble peak]

how much do we know about that anyway?

[upbeat star]

Not much but to be tossed away and then put in charge to work the exhaust organ to basically be the garbage disposal, she was hoping for death the entire time

[humble peak]

anyway I think under ideal circumstances PK would have easily been a better parent
GMS tried but even without a hugely terrible situation all her kids fucking hated her lmao
I mean technically PK could have ended up being kinda shitty too but I just get the vibe he would've done alright
especially with WL, she seems really chill even if constantly down atrocious

[wild zinc]

Sending your own daughter to sewer duty is very evil ngl gms might be the worst parent for that

[upbeat star]

Only reason she was like that was for trying to get a perfect vessel even tho it was in vain because how do you raise a vessel without showing it love to make sure it stays hollow

[frosty gate]

GMS because she Actually wanted kids
PK needed tools

Plus if given the oportunity to be a Father I bet he'd do just about right, he really did seem to like PV

On the other hand, GMS made two different set of kids and fumbled both

[upbeat star]

The reason the hollow knight failed was because PK started to love him

[frosty gate]

She even made one specifically to act like her Kid AND SHE STILL FAILED TO BE A MOTHER

She had to be dragged into the pits of hell itself to finally realize "Maybe I should kinda love my child and help her escape with her friend"

[upbeat star]

Tho that letting them escape could have been a selfish one, “if a piece of me can live on then so be it” type thing

Hornet was the one to goad her into helping hornet speaks at her before she helps

[frosty gate]

That too, i just choose to believe she actually wanted to be amother

[vivid kernel]

thats so cool that pk treated his "tools" more like kids and gms treated her "kids" more like tools

i js noticed that parallel

[orchid pine]

Why did GMS create Lace and Phantom anyway? Just out of morbid curiosity or what?

[plush spoke]

What is gurr's backstory

[lethal burrow]

doubt it was grandmother silk who did that 2nd thing

[lethal burrow]

He was outcast

[plush spoke]

Why tho

[lethal burrow]

either because he hunted the ants or because he was mottled

(probably the second one and the first came after imo)

[silk dirge]

tldr ant racism

i doubt it

[lethal burrow]

Where are you getting that lace did anything to defend her mother from the void?

[silk dirge]

lace literally says she wants to be taken by oblivion

[plush spoke]

Wow

Poor gurr

[frosty gate]

Oh there's people still awake

[silk dirge]

yeah bc im pst

objectively the best timezone

[plush spoke]

It's 1pm here

[frosty gate]

It's 12am here

[silk dirge]

sk lore discussion is not ready for the real argument

timezone discussion

[lethal burrow]

That's true there's not even a bingo card for that yet

[edgy nebula]

lowkey pretty sad that sharpe's backer didnt even know he was scrapped

[frosty gate]

Yeah that was weird, but I'm guessing it will be in a DLC, they wouldn't just totally scrap it

[edgy nebula]

i suppose we'll have to wait for tc's response, since apparently the backer's fiancee is waiting on them to contact tc

[silk dirge]

imagine they got like

nda'd

[lethal burrow]

wait did news come out about that?

I'm intrigued

[frosty gate]

Fuck i just thought about it, the Choir was meant to keep GMS sleeping while the Cogwork Core was done so GMS was probably slept a bit before the first Conductor got appointed

[edgy nebula]

the backer's wife responded to a reddit post saying the backer had no clue sharpe was scrapped and that the backer was gonna contact tc

no info yet since she replied like 2 days ago

[grim isle]

Guys I actually want to know sense Hornet said Crawfather's judgment wasn't wrong does it mean she is a bad person or she made mistakes?

[frosty gate]

Which means I gotta make more changes to my Sheet

[lethal burrow]

She is partly responsible for the situation whatever moral judgement you pass is your personal beliefs

[vestal swan]

Bc hornet destroyed pharloom

[edgy nebula]

hornet makes mistakes yeah, and crawfather is entirely fair for passing judgment since she was directly responsible for destroying pharloom

hornet also decimated many craws

[vestal swan]

She woke up the angry god and let void loose

Pharloom was haunted and not even completely, not destroyed

[frosty gate]

The nice thing about making a hypotethical timeline is that it feels easier to spot incongruencies
At least for me

[grim isle]

It makes sense why he didn't invite her even though she killed the other craws in act one because he knows the craws attacked first

[pallid vapor]

whats the deal with these guys, why they only appear on act3

[lethal burrow]

they don't

[pallid vapor]

im dead

[vestal swan]

They can appear in Act 2 if you wake them up by entering their room and activating something or opening something I can't remember

Either way hornet is responsible for letting them out

[edgy nebula]

there's a room with a lever that makes them appear, in act 3 that lever gets automatically switched

[pallid vapor]

oh thats why, i never found it myself

[hidden crater]

The fact that the note is basically "shit I let them out now its all my fault" is kinda funny

[craggy bison]

Would've been fire if all of the deaths that hornet goes through in game is just her seeing the future because she's half wyrm

It would make sense but the cocoons are a big contradiction to this theory

[meager drum]

why does the second pristine core disappear if you die after beating the second clapper?

is there an auto cleanup thing?

[muted lantern]

if the skarlids and skarwings are a less sapient subspecies of the skarr (which it the text seems to imply) do we think they are like pets to the skarr?

[finite cave]

crack theory what if skarlids are relatives of the pharlid and karmelita's song evolved them

[vague whale]

crack theory: you did crack to think up this theory

[cursive sinew]

I am all in on that theory now

[hollow lily]

what kind of pilgrims are the bugs. are they religious because I mean they seem to have rosaries all over and those are religious items.

[robust wagon]

Sorry when did you start playing silksong? This is one of the major themes of the game

[quick geyser]

Take a WILD guess

[finite cave]

the whole game is about religion so

[hollow lily]

like weeks ago...

[hollow lily]

yes

[quick geyser]

Both HK and SS have religious themes, but it is more apparent in SS

[hollow lily]

didnt know that. I know they are pilgrims but I thought it was just a journey of self fulfillment, I didn't realize the citadel was a religious capitol.

[robust wagon]

Wow okay that's crazy

[hollow lily]

why

[hollow lily]

Can we get the holy bug bible

I want one.

[feral inlet]

Citadel is capitalism justified by the religious capital as seen by underwork

[echo trellis]

Squits

[toxic mulch]

Do we have any lore on who these guys are? They're clearly not weavers

[primal ruin]

Idk precise but it’s possible that they are pilgrims who have been corrupted by silk

[heavy gyro]

they are not pilgrims

they are puppets controlled by some spider

you cant even dream nail them iirc

[toxic mulch]

The pic is from HK but I was told to ask here

[maiden meteor]

I imagine them as bunch of spiders in a trench coat

[obtuse creek]

They’re friends that want you to take a rest : )

[maiden meteor]

Tbh their bench is still better than March’s or Bilewater’s

[obtuse creek]

The bilewater bench made me laugh my ass off

[maiden meteor]

Team Cherry LOVED deepnest bench

so they added whole 3 troll benches in Silksong

[obtuse creek]

Four if you count the one troll bench I don’t like

[maiden meteor]

four if you count one-use bench

[obtuse creek]

The mount fay one

[maiden meteor]

it has one?

[obtuse creek]

The one behind the breakable wall I felt was a hair too mean spirited for the area

[maiden meteor]

ahhh

[obtuse creek]

The others are fine those areas are supposed to be awful death traps

[maiden meteor]

I mean mostly March, Sinner’s, Bilewater and Underworks

At least Underworks bench is only 15 rosaries

[obtuse creek]

The mount fay one is like this really elegantly designed pure platforming challenge and then yeah we decided to put the next rest area out of sight right when at a point in space the timer expires

So the player is panicking and scrambling up the wall

[maiden meteor]

TC went a bit too hard with hidden entrances tbh

like all of Bilewater entrances are hidden

[obtuse creek]

The bilewater one is fine it’s kinda supposed to be a place that’s a) awful and hostile and b) a slower paced area

The only other hidden thing I have any beef with is nyleth’s location feels kind of bullshit

You get a lot of hints she’s in shellwood so of course most players are gonna waste time hitting walls in shellwood

Rather than “halfway up the elevator shaft in the location with nothing in it at all that the player has probably never returned to since first entering it”

[heavy gyro]

yeah thats what happened to me

I had to get help eventually

[obtuse creek]

Some smug guy in discussion was like “well clearly there were vines in the shaft so obviously you should have checked there” and like bro that was like what forty hours ago since I last set foot in that room lol

I think most of the other hidden things are mostly fair with the exception of the placement of the third mt fay bench and the Nyleth sub area

I can see having beef with the bilewater bench but I did find it on my own so

[nocturne thistle]

it could be that pale king reincarnated as a underworks worker to satisfy his need for saws but He HATED how he need to pay for bench and made a kingdom in despise. Also the reason every bench in hallownest is free (the kingdom might be a little extra)

[vivid kernel]

Except the fact that there are non-free benches in CoT

[vivid kernel]

“Yeah lets make em go to grand gate/underworks to get to a shellwood subarea” 😔

[fading shard]

Aight I didn't get to give a straight answer because I had to disapear but my answer is that it's implied at best and at worst doesn't even have any grounds to it at all

Just a popular headcanon a ton of people have regarding who trained the pure vessel to the point that I thought that thre was actual dialogue stating so

But turns out you were right weapon and there's nothing outright stating or severely implying that the pale king trained it

ANd I'm just stupid and horrible

Who misremembered a popular theory to be actually canon

I am fully prepared to be made fun of for this blunder of mine

I was just wrong 😔

Arvin I was just simply, blatantly wrong

God I feel stupid

[fresh badger]

THK was 'raised and trained to prime form' to become the pure vessel

WL was implied to do the raising from the nursery

PK is implied to be the one that taught THK its soul spells and cool Focus. Since the dude is crazy experienced with soul and his kids can all do weird stuff with soul (focus/bind, gain soul from living beings)

Every other soul user in Hallownest just has gloopy soul spells (shamans, soul sanctum which PK had shut down at that time)

[fading shard]

I mean yeah as I said it's implied which is whyi t's a popular theory in the community, bells but like

as I said it's a implication at best

and I doubt weapon or arvin think that's exactly enough for it to be concrete

[fresh badger]

Why are you calling snow weapon

Powdered is just a pk denier

[fading shard]

you mean powdered

[fading shard]

I mean yeah he is

but like I can't exactly give him 100% concrete proof that yes the pale king did in fact train the pure vessel

all I can say is just that "it's implied"

anyhow bells

I have a question for you, why do you have stinky in your nikcname

is it insulting if I call you stinky bells?

[random harbor]

Charm: Defender's Crest

Unique charm bestowed by the King of Hallownest to his most loyal knight. Scratched and dirty, but still cared for.

Causes the bearer to emit a heroic odour.

@mushspore used /charms category: B-K charm: Defender's Crest

[fading shard]

should I just refer to you as bells

[fresh badger]

I am heroic

[fading shard]

AH

Makes sense

[heavy gyro]

Where are the pilgrims originally from?

[fading shard]

pharloom

they aren't from another place

[heavy gyro]

I thought they were called upon to help build the citadel a long time ago

[nimble ocean]

I think they’re from bone bottom

[heavy gyro]

It's weird though, why did citadel bugs descend back to bone bottom some time before for their descendants to be susceptible to the silken curse

[fallow niche]

kevin durant

[molten python]

All the bugs are susceptible to the Haunting, they don't need to have Silk in their body.

It was mainly the bugs in the Citadel that had the most Silk in their body due to the experiments in Whiteward, which is why they fell to the Haunting first. This has been going on for many generations, so it's likely that some of the bugs from the Citadel may have left and mixed with outside bugs.

Having Silk just makes it easier to get Haunted.

[fading shard]

Arvin

[heavy gyro]

But bugs without silk dont get haunted

Like the skrill on the surface

[fading shard]

The bugs in the surface were outside of gms influence

Gms doesn't have infinite range of her haunting

It's very specific

[heavy gyro]

Hornet says theyre free of silk and that their nature is their own, which implies that having silk is what allows gms to control them

And gms cant haunt any bugs that are outside of pharloom (nvm shakra is probably from pharloom)

[fading shard]

Small correction arvin the bugs in the citadel experimented with silk in their bodies in whiteward as you said and this was done for many generations and these generations over the many generations had silk go to those who weren't even experimented on

including the regular pilgrims

[fading shard]

Shakra and garmond are from the outskirts of pharloom

[heavy gyro]

Isnt garmond from a village in pharloom

[fading shard]

That's what I just said

Outskirts doesn't mean it's outside of pharloom

[heavy gyro]

Yeah so some citadel bugs must have descended back down

Or maybe thats part of their religion

[fading shard]

Which include the regular pilgrims of today like pillby or flint

[heavy gyro]

A newly hatched bug must climb

[fading shard]

and just all the pilgrims we see like the bellhart residence

[fading shard]

I mean I guess so

[sharp valley]

i dont think that this is snow, it looks more like mold or something like that, its just a really moldy and cold mountain imo

[foggy stratus]

I feel like it’s Fayhorn dandruff.

[fading shard]

wrong plant I was thinking of

[foggy stratus]

Fucker sheds like crazy.

[fading shard]

no it is does look like a dandelion

Might be crazy but i think this wouldn't be too crazy

but then again I know very little regarding this subject so it could be mold for all I know

[vestal swan]

Mold doesn't typically survive in a cold environment

It could be bird flakes it could be shards of ice it could be parts of plants but I would say definitely not mold of any kind

[fading shard]

okay thank god

[sharp valley]

dandelions also dont survive in cold tho

[vestal swan]

They don't look alive though do they

[sharp valley]

there is a bug from hallownest in the memorium, because i dont remember pharloom having any horned bugs/piligrims that look like that

they kidnapped a hallownestian or maybe one of them came to pharloom and was used as a museum piece

[rich zenith]

At choral chambers with lace and hornet says " and experience tells me, even gods can fall " is she referring to the dream no more ending since she wouldn't have any idea about the pale kings death and the radiance is the only seen higher being that has died. Dream no more is cannon to silksong?

[vestal swan]

She would know that radiance and PK are dead if she talks to TK about any of that after the fact, radiance dying would be obvious though

Anyway the game follows ||embrace the void|| if you haven't really finished the game don't click on this

[sharp valley]

she is reffering to higher beings/gods and she def knows that the radiance is dead due to the infection dissapearing and the pale king not returning

[rich zenith]

Ok

So that's cool

Cus radiance dies

But one thing, she can't really witness any pantheon endings

[vestal swan]

She can see what TK becomes afterwards? For example she's going to see thk walk out of the black egg temple when the radiance dies so she knows something is up

[rich zenith]

Like yk seeing the radiance die

[rich zenith]

True but idk why she would guess something killed a god

Or that it just dies

[vestal swan]

Because the God is dead

?

[rich zenith]

How does she know that?

Anything could have happened to it

[vestal swan]

The infection just fades away all over the place?

She's standing at the door that to her knowledge is the only access point, there's no other reason the orange goo would go away

[rich zenith]

She would know something happened but how would she come to the conclusion it died? She says she has experience as if she saw it happen

Really seems like dream no more makes the most sense

She was right there and saw the knight with the dream nail go into thk mind

If she knows the infection has a God and knows about the dream nail then it must be quite obvious

I guess the p5 endings would make sense but not as much as dream no more

[silk dirge]

i think this is a pilgrim

[sharp valley]

yeah, but its a unique pilgrim that is not found anywhere else

[silk dirge]

yeah

[frosty gate]

She could also be talking about PK to be honest. That Dialogue applies to both

Of course it's more likely its Rad, but it does apply to both

Fuck, HBs need better names I swear to God

Why is Unn the only normal one

[stone herald]

shes talking about "gods" in general, she's disillusioned with the concept of higher beings being infallible as a whole, not a specific case

[rich zenith]

Higher beings are pretty much just gods

Somewhat

[stone herald]

though the pale kings was both more obvious and probably impactful considering it marinated for a thousand years and its also her dad

[rich zenith]

Actually now that I think about it why call.pale king a God?

Unless hornet knows abt the whole wyrm thing

[stone herald]

she knows

[rich zenith]

Oh

[stone herald]

she knows about the wyrm corpse

[rich zenith]

Yeah cus kings brand

[stone herald]

and i mean, the pale king was someone she knew personally and who's DNA she shared

[rich zenith]

Makes sense

Dream no more ending has to be canon, it just makes a lot of sensee

[frosty gate]

Infection comes from Evil Moth Lady
She waits for the Knight to help it kill the Evill Moth Lady, knowing it will end the Infection
Infection dies
Hornet: "Oh maybe Radiance just got bored"

[stone herald]

only issue with that ending is that the hollow knights shade isnt seen

so people think it wa the embrace the void ending (one of the godhome ones) since THK is still alive in those

[rich zenith]

She doesnt know how it died

[silk dirge]

ik grand mother silk sounds like a silkpost lmao

[barren beacon]

So do weavers live a long ass time? Or is hornet's age related to the Pale King's genetics

[frosty gate]

This is when people tell you HK developed free will and is able to go away from VGForms despite having no proof of that

[orchid pine]

Probably both

[rich zenith]

How is radiance even in godhome tho??

Do I just go to hk lore

[frosty gate]

But she knows Rad died, no need to know more

[frosty gate]

Dreams

[barren beacon]

Godseeker's whole plan to create a pathway for her to leave THK without having to break free

Basically Godhome's whole plot

[rich zenith]

Oh

Trying to get the radiance out and using bosses to stop the knight

[orchid pine]

Godseeker is the #1 Evil Moth Glazer

[barren beacon]

The Bosses are part of the plan

[stone herald]

the HK always had free will, but i dont see why it wouldnt stick with the knight

[rich zenith]

Ok

[barren beacon]

And then Void Given Focus Number One Glazer

[rich zenith]

Still i feel like dream no more just makes more sense for silksong

[barren beacon]

So do we get any info related to THK in Silksong?

[frosty gate]

Idk if Godseeker was trying to free her, its been a while since I get into that lore.
I just know Godseeker had the hots for Rad

[frosty gate]

Nop

[stone herald]

how come?

[barren beacon]

Void Given Focus flashing on the screen for like 2 seconds

[stone herald]

also as a side note, i feel like TC added that hollow knight leaving the black egg scene for a REASON

[rich zenith]

Im guessing all of the dream no more stuff from one line in the 2nd act which im at

[stone herald]

im interpreting developer intent but i dont think they just did that to not capitalise on it

[orchid pine]

Either her mind was completely rewritten or knows just how cooked she is if she doesn’t serve Ghosts every whim. Though, it’s more likely to be the first

[frosty gate]

I mean yes, all vessels had some form of free will at some point
But THK leaving the whole Siblings to do what exactly?

[barren beacon]

I dunno', It seems really fitting to her character.

[rich zenith]

He was just wondering around

[stone herald]

which lines

[frosty gate]

Wait, you haven't finished the game fully?

[stone herald]

no clue, but i do get the idea that THK is one of the only other vessels who can hack it outside of the knight's guardianship

[stone herald]

oh wait get the heck out of the chat if you havent finished the game lol

[rich zenith]

" and experience tells me, even gods can fall" while talking to lace in choral chambers

[stone herald]

i mean they do that in all endings

[rich zenith]

Hornet knows that whatever is controlling the bugs is a higher being

[stone herald]

the pale king already fell

[rich zenith]

And idk what it is bit yk

[stone herald]

do yourself a favor and get out of the chat though

like, people are going to offhandedly mention very very very big spoilers because the assumption is that youve finished the whole game

[lone raptor]

You gotta do ||act 3|| before you say that

[rich zenith]

Ok

[orchid pine]

I actually had a really interesting discussion yesterday about the nature of void and it’s the theory of how it behaves

[stone herald]

yeah

[frosty gate]

We did already, big big spoiler

[lone raptor]

Yeah

[rich zenith]

But since she knows the higher being is controlling the kingdom like the radiance, that must mean she saw the radiance fall/die

Forgot the exact voiceline for that though

[lone raptor]

Maybe do ||act 3|| first

[frosty gate]

I know what you mean, but you really should finish the game before discussing which ending is canon

To get the whole pic you know

[rich zenith]

Yeah

[stone herald]

just finish the game yeah

[rich zenith]

More of just me theorising

[lone raptor]

I know

[rich zenith]

But thanks for not purposely spoiling something big about the game😃

[stone herald]

well dont do it here people are going to come in and be like "oh yeah its jsut that SPOILER did SPOILER and then SPOILER" just like in "ENDING OF THE GAME"

[rich zenith]

Yeah

[lone raptor]

But spoilers may be just said without another thought

[rich zenith]

Yupp

[stone herald]

yeah youre here at your risk if you haevnt finished the game

and believe me theres some stuff you really really dont want spoiled

more than the usual expectation of not being spoiled

[rich zenith]

Was just asking about something in discussion and people spoiled that a certain nice character dies😭 literally replying to me

[stone herald]

just get off the discord for a bit yeah

[rich zenith]

Yeah

Thx tho

[stone herald]

to be fair the assumption in silksong discussion is that youve played silksong to discuss it

[frosty gate]

Yeah, the Discord is not a good place at this moment

[stone herald]

SK-help is fine though i think but just dont risk it that much

[rich zenith]

No like as in they purposely replied to my message saying thst the character died, not what was being talked about

Can't even go on YouTube without spoilers either

Bye and have a good day:)

[lone raptor]

Bye

Just play the game and have fun

[frosty gate]

Now onto more lore relevant matters

Who the fuck made the Exhaust Organ

[lone raptor]

I don’t know exactly but it seems like an area to expel waste

[stone herald]

citadel or weavers presumably

[lone raptor]

So probably the citadel

[stone herald]

the exhaust organ is part of the larger GMS pacification unit

[stone herald]

yeah its the exhaust organ, probably citadel if you want to tie it into the narrative of the Citadel being the ones who screwed bilewater

[frosty gate]

Please don't say Citadel my brain's gonna implode

[lone raptor]

Yeah

[stone herald]

it does lead into bilewater

[stone herald]

fine the conductors

[frosty gate]

Yeah, that's better, it's just that Citadel could either be during Weaver time or Conductor time and those are two different sets of guilty people

[lone raptor]

In some of the lore in bilewater it implies the citadel did this

And you can also see some of the citadel bugs strung up somewhere

[frosty gate]

I guess it had to be during Weaver rule I guess?? But that kinda complicates things

I think, let me check

I think the piece that bothers me now with that info is, who was appointed first?
Conductors, Vaultkeepers or Archictects? Because I made the assumption that they all kinda came together

[edgy barn]

why would that be relevant?

[graceful grail]

Was this going to be hornet embracing her Wyrm side??

[lone raptor]

Above groal

[edgy barn]

It's more likely it was going to be GMS sucessfully claiming Hornet's "Silken strength"

I saw that

[stone herald]

nuh uh

[frosty gate]

Trying to piece together the most known events and this one bothers me

Because I gotta ask, do we think Phantom would obey the Weavers or just GMS? She doesn't have a reason to obey the Weavers

[edgy barn]

I think we need to answer why is Phantom operating the exhaust organ in the first place.

[frosty gate]

She was tasked to do so

It's what the Journal directly says

[edgy barn]

I mean yeah but like, why and by who

GMS doesn't have a reason to want the organ in operation so that leaves you either the weavers or the conductors

[frosty gate]

Right? But that's what makes this tricky, because why would Phantom, direct creation of GMS, obey anyone but GMS?
Everyone is technically below her

[edgy barn]

ehh I don't think Phantom likes her mother all that much. She doesn't seem happy about being discarded

[maiden meteor]

I mean Citadel is GMS’ stronghold at this point, so it makes sense she doesn’t want deadly waste in here

[frosty gate]

I mean surely, but even still, I doubt she would be in on the plan to betray her

[frosty gate]

This is what I think, assuming the Weavers maed the Citadel under the guise of a tribute for her

There's also the possibility that Phantom wasn't in on the plan but couldn't stop the Weavers and the Weavers said "Go manage the waste" or something

[edgy barn]

alright this is going to sound crazy but hear me out: What if Phantom is GMS's first creation, and is only after whatever caused her to be considered a failure and be discarded that the weavers were uplifted? This would give a lore explanation as to why there are no references to Phantom in the Lace Silk Heart memory (the actual explanation is that phantom is an afterthought but yk)

[frosty gate]

After GMS was done for of course

[frosty gate]

That could be the case honestly.
I was thinking maybe GMS first made Phantom then the Weavers and after a while Phantom was discarded.

[edgy barn]

I don't fully believes this but I do hope it ends up being the case

I think it would be more interesting and unique if Phantom was the very first.

[frosty gate]

Yeah I think it would.

Now I'm thinking where does this fit in my speculations

[fading shard]

Hi

what is the discussion

[frosty gate]

Phantom and who appointed her to Waste Cleaning

And when

[fading shard]

makes sense

Personally I was thinking of queens gardens

[frosty gate]

Why?

[fading shard]

well

I kinda had a bit of a realization

[fading shard]

Well I kinda realized all signs point to the white lady being the one that took the queens gardens not the pale king

hell even the lore tablet regarding the place doesn't imply it to be the pale kings doing

no mention of his kingdom, himself

[edgy barn]

didn't we already knew that.

[fading shard]

.......Listen I had a debate with somebody about the queens gardens a while back

and I have not checked my queens garden lore for over a year zza

[fading shard]

it says a pale being instead of the pale one or the pale king or wyrm

it doesn't even hallownest or any of the other title or lands the pale king and hallownest usually get referred to

[edgy barn]

I mean that's understandable but I remember you yourself mentioning it in other discussions here.

[fading shard]

I have

[fading shard]

But it was from my own foggy memory

[edgy barn]

alright

[fading shard]

It was in a way that makes all points go to the white lady

It's so obvious

The pale king is not to blame for this

[edgy barn]

I don't think Phantom is being referenced here. No other in-game dialogue acknowledeges her, not even when it would be rather necessary.

[fading shard]

GOD zza you have no idea how happy I am that I checked this again

because it has been bugging me that people were saying that the pale king took the queens gardens as I felt something wasn't right

so I'm happy I finally checked T_T

sorry for the ramblings Zza just happy is all

[edgy barn]

it's fine

I agree it refers to the weavers, but I am talking more on a meta level. I do not think it references Phantom because I do not think she existed when the game's dialogue and story were written.

[frosty gate]

I wonder if these talk about different children or it's just dissing Phantom.

[frosty gate]

Why do you say that?

[edgy barn]

"Hornet: Sir, I have opened the way above these halls, and bested the white knight that stood as guardian.
Hornet: Child of the monarch, she claimed herself at the end, and her shell suggested it true, a being born purely from Silk woven tight.
Hornet: That such a feat is possible... I have seen life woven from Silk before, but tiny, transient... Never like this..."

This is what Hornet says to the carataker after the second Lace fight. This dialogue does not change if Hornet has beaten Phantom. And yes, Hornet does know Phantom is made out of Silk, she points it out in the journal entry.

There is also the fact that, despite Phantom being directly related to Lace and GMS, she is a non-presence. Lace has no special dialogue or interaction if Phantom has died. Phantom is not a True Ending requirement. No character that could know something ever references her. She just exists in a vacuum isolated from the rest of the story.

[compact escarp]

Is the bellvein the first to exist before the Karaks?

[solar oriole]

About the lore tablets on the ruined chapel... are they referencing the Burning Bugs and the Stilkin?

The first lore tablet in the ruined chapel:

Flickering Flame
Five masks swirled soul, brought and broiled.
Four stones rage-baked, crushed powder coarse.
Three shells fresh from pilgrims fallen, to contain and age.

The description of the Wisp in Hunter's Journal:

Short-lived sprite born of flickering flame.

The second lore tablet:

Anguished Aura
Eight masks hard, swirled soul enraged.
Twelve aknids flat, all juices strained.
Six pilgrims living, hung long to drain.

And in Bilewater the Stilkin are hanging people up:

Also the item you get after the Groal fight is refered as "swirling soul" in Groal's Needolin dialogue.

[steep talon]

i think this one is a show of force. theres another place where they are hanging people for more specific reason

[solar oriole]

You mean in the bench area?

[steep talon]

near secret bench and what i theorize to be a busted bellway - yeah

prolly not written by him. he has moss camouflage, so prolly just lived in bilewater and not in chapel

[edgy barn]

the way the caretaker speaks of the events I doubt he lived in bilewater

[steep talon]

oh yeah, but also the tablet above groal seems kinda recent no? So maybe Groal killed him more recently?

[edgy barn]

the seeker is described to be long dead, let me check where exactly

[steep talon]

dang

[edgy barn]

"Cracked shell containing soul drawn from a long deceased bug." -Seeker's Soul description

[steep talon]

ahh, okay

so when would seeker have went to bile then? What other thing in timeline happened as bile got fucked over

[frosty gate]

Well I guess you are right in some respect to that. The only argument I can think of is

For the Caretaker dialogue, I guess she was flabbergasted, speaking specifically about Lace because Lace is just more "Perfect" than Phantom
For the lack of Lace dialogue regarding that, I don't think Lace checked on her sister after the battle.

That said, they could add dialogue in future updates to change that and it would be the best

[solar oriole]

I would like to think that the bugs of Bilewater weren't as hateful before, but because of this Anguished Aura they changed from basic bugs to the Stilkin we meet.

[edgy barn]

I mean there's presumably a long time between Bilewater becoming what it is now and the present

[frosty gate]

Did someone say...
Timeline?
What's the topic

[steep talon]

when seeker went to bile basically

[frosty gate]

What about it?

[edgy barn]

Not lore related but the multiple mentions of the Seeker having been powerful makes me think he could potentially be a memory boss fight in a future DLC

[solar oriole]

In fact... I would theorize that the bugs that would bring the Twisted Bud to Shellwood were these basic bugs from Bilewater, but because of this Anguished Aura they renounced or gave up that ritual practice.

[steep talon]

yee. at least Nyleth was prolly under alliance with citadel bugs as I imagine after that they started to build their sewer systems

[steep talon]

Groal 2. Groal Tyrant

[frosty gate]

Like, when did the Seeker go to Bilewater in a timeline?

[steep talon]

yee. could be good to know

i think anyway

[frosty gate]

Conductor's Era most likely

[steep talon]

at least I think seeker lived in bile for a bit of time and then later got killed. But it's not 100%

[frosty gate]

I doubt it honestly, I think they were too enraged to see the Seeker as an ally

[steep talon]

why wouldnt they? it's not like all snails aligned themselves with citadel

[frosty gate]

No, but they also have no way of knowing that and the Stilkin seem territorial.
Idk, I don't think there's much evidence for Seeker actually staying there for a while

[steep talon]

well that is true. Just makes sense to me I suppose

bruh, groal calls soul - pale flame. what

[edgy barn]

what's the issue? the way Groal uses it Soul does in fact look like a pale flame.

[steep talon]

just wondering if it has deeper implications. probably not

[lean temple]

I think tying paleness to soul

Which was already theorised plenty

[steep talon]

yee. but something about it doesnt seem right. is pale ore just ore imbued with soul or something, that wouldnt be too special

[lean temple]

It's connected with the pale beings somehow. How exactly is unknown

Though what is it that makes it cold then?

[frosty gate]

I can't stop thinking about the Exhaust Organ and Phantom, it's so hard to put it in a timeline

[lean temple]

Before bilewater ig?

[steep talon]

i think its just metal therefore cold. probably just a filler line from hk

[frosty gate]

I mean, that for sure, but it changes the way I was looking at things.

I wish we had more info on Phantom

[lean temple]

I mean there's a difference between cold because duh ofc it would be, and "emanates an icy chill"

[zinc cloud]

phantom is older than lace, but i wonder why phantom was playing the exhaust organ, by that keeping Gms in her sleep for at least a bit longer

[honest sun]

if hornet is like, idk, half wyrm, could she use soul¿

[lean temple]

She already does. Silk is made from soul

[honest sun]

ohhhhh alr

[frosty gate]

No no, Phantom played it because it's a waste cleaning mechanism

[zinc cloud]

oh well exhaust is in the name i didnt notice that lol

[honest sun]

but then if silk is soul, is gms connected to soul too or smth¿

[steep talon]

i mean, i would just desribe that as cold

[frosty gate]

And in her description in the Journal

[zinc cloud]

if hornet attacked an infected bug (radiance infected not GMS) would she get soul? or would she get soul and convert it to silk? or would she just get silk

[zinc cloud]

i dont really look in the journal lol, didnt even get it in hollow knight cause i missed it

[lean temple]

Well, yes

[steep talon]

second option

[lean temple]

Soul then convert to silk probably

[honest sun]

so its just all soul

[woven vine]

Was it the flower or their own spell that killed the snails?

[honest sun]

what if gms tried to control a radiance infected bug

[light kelp]

Yes, is soul converted into a silk form

[steep talon]

flower, they had allergies

its the spell...

[lean temple]

The spell consumed their soul too I believe

[light kelp]

Then radiance would control the mind while GMS would control the body or vice versa, the two works kinda the same except radiance make the bug stronger physically

[zinc cloud]

idk how the silk control works, if its just like replacing the mind or just controlling the limbs but it would probably be just like if you had two people controlling one hand

[edgy barn]

The mind is also affected.

[frosty gate]

Ok i've decided on an assumption to go on.
The Architects were created first, the Vaultkeepers second and the Conductors third

And no I've got no proper proof of that

[fringe comet]

whats the assumption based on?

[honest sun]

mmm i was about to ask if a vessel could be controled by gms, but then i remembered lost kin

[fringe comet]

conductors held an organizational role so if they werent organized all at once i would assume conductors first

[steep talon]

pavo says that he got gms thoughts while being haunted. so idk honestly. haunting does seem a little physical, again pavo being strung up like that and immobile but its mostly the mind

[steep talon]

shooting your shit. i respect it

[steep talon]

hmm, id actually argue lost kin was more physicall control

[honest sun]

cs when defeated why he did this

[edgy barn]

Broken Vessel is not really infected tho, is a corpse puppeted by lightseeds

[steep talon]

they are a drama queen

[frosty gate]

The Architects built the city itself. Cogwork Core is the main thing of the Citadel and the Underworks had to be one of the first things up considering its the foundation of the Citadel. So they had to be first

Cardinius says the Vaultkeepers answer only to the Weavers, meaning that not even Conductors can say shit to Vaultkeepers. My assumption is that the Weavers made the Vaults before the Choir to keep secrets Hidden.

The Conductors are important and know of GMS yes, but their main role was to direct the Choir to keep GMS asleep, that was after she got put to sleep

[frosty gate]

I think that makes sense

[lean temple]

You could argue that the Weavers maintained things until they set up most of the systems in the Citadel then passed the torch to the Conductors, so maybe they wouldn't have to be the first made.

[zinc cloud]

what sense would it make for the crossroads to become infected after killing them? they obviously had a little bit of rad in it

[honest sun]

was every bug and robot there in pharloom against gms¿

[lean temple]

It's picking the wings that triggers the infected crossroads

[zinc cloud]

oh, still that makes less sense imo

[lean temple]

It is bcz of "time passing" apparently

[edgy barn]

It;s just a representation of the passage of time. the seal is weakening

[honest sun]

maybe its like terraria when you defeat the wall of flesh, the corruption expands

[fringe comet]

yeah that works, if you were to assume an order and not a simultaneous formation

[zinc cloud]

oh well that makes sense but represented poorly still

[edgy barn]

would you prefer a in-game timer?

[steep talon]

fuck yeah i love waiting 40 hours for shit to be slightly different

[honest sun]

if lace is made of silk, and silk is soul, would the knight get many soul when hitting her¿

or could lace get infected by the radiance

[frosty gate]

Most bugs don't know that GMS exist. Only Vaultkeepers, Conductors and Architects

[zinc cloud]

i dont know man im not a game designer but ig a cutscene would be cool

[lean temple]

It's like "time passing" but killing Dreamers also lightens up the Radiance stage while wings doesn't. OK, game.

[honest sun]

oh i didnt know that

[edgy barn]

Of the vaultkeepers, only the pontiff knew and he had to actively search for the info

[frosty gate]

I have to assume it was in order to place Phantom somwehre

[edgy barn]

Twelfth Architect meanwhile never references GMS in their dialogue

[steep talon]

prolly a bug that built architects knew about gms. dont think architects would know, seems like unecessary info

[edgy barn]

So pretty sure only the Conductors were supposed to know what the real purpose of the citadel is. I believe the first architect knew as well but that is just a headcanon

[honest sun]

wait, what is the citadel for¿

[steep talon]

the only slight ref to gms from architects is that she calls weavers first children. so you could maybe argue that if she knew weavers were children than they would know about gms

[edgy barn]

Keeping GMS asleep through song.

[zinc cloud]

pretty much a cult to make gms sleep for a long time

[steep talon]

still i think its just pointless info to give to a bot thats just supposed to built shiy

[edgy barn]

Cardinius also calls the weavers first children and he almost certainly doesn't know about GMS.

[steep talon]

yee

[frosty gate]

Is that the case? Crap let me recheck

[honest sun]

oooohhh, if so, then why do pilgrims climb up there¿

[frosty gate]

The timeline of events is just a mess i swear to god

[steep talon]

yee, his needolin dialogue

[bitter coral]

Chat who is stronger? Knight or hornet?

[honest sun]

knight

[edgy barn]

"Hornet: Vaultkeeper, I am seeking a melody held by your vaults, part of a set to open a path above. Tell me what you know of it.
The Weaver-thing would claim our sacred melody?! How grim the age we survive to see... Vile sacrilege for it to pass to an outsider...
Only our pontiff, lived long and low within our vault, they held the melody, jealously, covetously... A learning for the highest Vaultkeeper, and them alone.
A truth they were told to have found... There in the dark. Something within the melody, or the words. Something to set them silent...
Hornet: I am not afraid of what I'll hear, Vaultkeeper. If your pontiff and their melody wait below, I shall find them both." Pontiff's needolin dialogue: "Damned bugs...
We prayed a cage...
We sang your chains...
Divine Silk..."

[light kelp]

Knight, fucking dude is built like a tank to resist most attacks, thats why he rarely takes two masks of damage

[bitter coral]

Lol

[lean temple]

To partake in the eternal song to keep GMS asleep, which they don't know is the actual reason they are brought there. They believe it will bring them some salvation.

[steep talon]

sorry powerscaling is illegal in this chat

[compact zealot]

Me who died 30 times to hornet rematch💀

[honest sun]

what does hornet and knight(vessels in general) wear¿ is that a cloak or a full circle cape

[zinc cloud]

and spare them of sins i think

[steep talon]

hornet wears a cloak. knight is probably dead wings, or elytra

[edgy barn]

Vessel cloaks are part of their bodies (THK being a potential exception). Hornet's cloak is just a piece of clothing

[steep talon]

oh actually i think even before dash its called a cloak. idk then

[frosty gate]

Ok so the Vaultkeepers didn't know but found out, the Conductors knew from the start and the Architects probably don't know and don't care?

[edgy barn]

there is no basic cloak description in HK.

[steep talon]

you sure? i could have sworn there was

[edgy barn]

That sounds correct to me.

[steep talon]

doesnt salubra mention it at least?

[frosty gate]

I still find it logical that the order of creation was Architects then Vaultkeepers then Conductors

[edgy barn]

no? why would salubra of all npc say something about the cloak?

[light kelp]

There is a surface in hollow Knight right? But why there is no sun or moon or any type of light there?

[steep talon]

about where you keep charms. so she mentions a cloak as potential storage

[honest sun]

maybe its cloudy or sandy and its night time

[opaque pier]

Dust or smth

[fading shard]

What cloak?

[opaque pier]

We dont really know if the surface is an actual surface, we'd have to ask mr mushroom since he flies up there all the time

[fading shard]

What the hell did I just run into

[zinc cloud]

in the game? i think team cherry said once that none of hollow knight takes place on the surface but im not sure

[honest sun]

we r just underground i think

[edgy barn]

she does not, I just checked

[steep talon]

wait it was pouch this whole time. holy hallucination batman

[fading shard]

Zza what cloak

What is the conversation T_T

[light kelp]

But in silksong there is the nameless town and the Surface Memento, it is the surface. People here said about the sand and makes kinda sense

[edgy barn]

vessel cloaks

[fading shard]

alright

[zinc cloud]

yeah in silksong, i said hollow knight because the person said hollow knight but in silksong yeah surface

[honest sun]

is hornet going to get bigger like thk because of being half wyrm or smth

[light kelp]

At least for me dirthmouth seems to take place in a similar leven to the nameless city at least, and the howling clifs is similar to the sands and winds there as well

[fading shard]

The surface of pharloom

Surface momento doesn't mean it's the actual surface

[lean temple]

Mask Makers hints she may not be done growing yet, but we cannot say for sure.

[edgy barn]

No, she is already fully grown and has a similar height to PK. THK's height likely comes from the white lady.

[coral wedge]

guys i did skong 100% i think its time to get into lore stuff

[zinc cloud]

in my opinion that wouldnt make sense, the abyss lakes should line up at a point i think so it would be much higher

[coral wedge]

whats going on

[fading shard]

God the white lady

[light kelp]

True

[frosty gate]

Do yall think that before the Choir was appointed the Weavers sang nonstop to keep GMS asleep while others worked on the Citadel?

[honest sun]

would it be funny to see the pk and gms have childs

silk vessels

[steep talon]

yee, they already did that anyway seemingly before lulling gms to sleep

[frosty gate]

It's weird because I think they sang to her as in prayer, but not to sleep

But idk if it was all the time

[fading shard]

hey twistriker I have a question uhh

do you dislike when people have fun discussions on 1v1 matches or like who's a stronger character o not

Because I know some individuals find that type of conversation about a media to be stupid

[steep talon]

maybe thats why they made citadel wage slavery

they experienced it themselves

for lore reasons thats a joke

[frosty gate]

Not really dislike, I just don't care, I can't stop people from doing it I just rather not participate in them and I think they're not lore relevant imo

[lean temple]

Makes you wonder why she didn't try having kids with other Higher or Pale Beings. Did she get rejected, did she not try at all, or is she incapable of reproducing normally?

[frosty gate]

Give them power and they are just as bad /j

[fading shard]

Do you think worse of me for the fact that I enjoy such conversations

As I sometimes feel a bit stupid

[frosty gate]

Nah, do whatever you want, it's not my business

[fading shard]

and uh insecure for the reason that I find such debates to be enjoyable

[fading shard]

thank you :D

[honest sun]

idk man my hk oc has like, silk hair, maybe its son of pk, gms and white lady

[fading shard]

I'm sorry for asking it's just that I was just curious

[frosty gate]

Dw

[honest sun]

i like to think that gms and pk had an affair sometime

[fading shard]

The pale king isn't one to have an affair

And I will keep mentioning the fact that his and herrahs deal is not a affair or cheating because of the white ladies consent to the ordeal

[honest sun]

just make kids and make then kill god

[fading shard]

this mitali, this

[honest sun]

or maybe white lady doesnt care about sharing

what

[fading shard]

No she very blatantly said that she does not mind hornets conception

and consented to that deal

So any moral quandarys are out of the picture

[lean temple]

"I do not begrudge the Wyrm's dalliance as bargain" and whatnot

Tho I still wonder why GMS specifically doesn't seem to have tried having kids normally. Can she not?

[honest sun]

idk how does higher beings have kids with other higher beings

[steep talon]

Khann was probably too ugly to bang

[honest sun]

they kiss and there appears a new being

[fading shard]

Yeah

Also another dialogue about hornet

where she also mentions her not minding it so

[lean temple]

"I feel some affection for the creature birthed" or smthg like that

[quick geyser]

Well well, what do we have here? Sup abhiker

[fading shard]

I'm sorry what namek

[fading shard]

Omg it's the guy

Namek I didn't know you were on the server

[quick geyser]

Same for you, but hey, the more the merrier

[fading shard]

Namek you know I'm a hollow knight lorehead so this palce was a natural place form e to bei n lol

[fading shard]

have you seen her body?

[fading shard]

Sexual intercourse

[lean temple]

Yes, and?

[fading shard]

idk how she would by normal means have a kid

[lean temple]

Counter point is have you seen White Lady?

She's a root

[honest sun]

have you guys seen herrah

[fading shard]

Okay well hornet and herrah atleast have female like bodies

even if different then humans

gms is just

I don' teven know what to call it

[graceful grail]

Pretty sure she’s 100% silk, not even bug

[fading shard]

I am more so talking about her lowerside of her body is a giant metal spool

[lean temple]

All higher beings aren't really classed as bugs anyway

[zinc cloud]

wyrm.

[graceful grail]

Is this song hornet first learns “the” silksong?

[frosty gate]

Wyrms are explicitly not bugs

[quick geyser]

But they still have resemblance to one. Like how radiance has some similarities to a moth

[honest sun]

look at this and tell me who has a more female like body

[zinc cloud]

oh okay

[fading shard]

Herrah

Herrah would have a physical way to conceive a child

[quick geyser]

Unrelated, but i know herrah is a weaver but she seems very different from most weaver physically

[frosty gate]

They're just Worms, probably considered mythical creatures or something like Dragons.
Pk just became bug

[fading shard]

I eman he still wasn't a bug

[lean temple]

They're not "worms". Worms are other things that exist in HK universe

[honest sun]

why conceive when you can create your kids from silk itself

[fading shard]

"wyrms" and worms are 2 different things

[lean temple]

Wyrms are closer to dragons, like the irl myths

[solar oriole]

Is this timeline correct:

• GMS spawns
• Weavers are made
• Conquering Pharloom
• Weavers figure out she lied about them being GMS daughters
• Weavers build Weavenest and plot against GMS
• Weavers trap GMS
• Weavers establish Citadel "Church and Cage"
• Weavers leave and Conductors and Architects take charge
• Architects create Cogwork Core which sustains song mechanically
• Citadel discovers the "Cage" part of the church
• Citadel bombs devotion to Weavers, imprison first sinner and Clawline Weaver
• Citadel becomes more opulent and starts Whiteward
• Whiteward makes so people around and their children are born with silk in them?
• Architects are diyng out and cogwork core starts failing
• GMS starts waking up and Haunting starts more strongly on the Citadel
• GMS makes Phantom and Lace
• GMS starts looking for Weavers.

[fading shard]

Ehhhhhhhhh

[honest sun]

when does the pk and gms have kids

[fading shard]

The pale king and gms do not have kids what

[honest sun]

just wait

[fading shard]

How the hell would that even be physically possible

[honest sun]

with the power of love

and silk and soul

[fading shard]

The pale king loves the white lady not gms

[solar oriole]

I didn't write that... where are you getting this from?

[honest sun]

and void

[fading shard]

oc fanfic

[toxic mulch]

PK likely has no idea who GMS is

[fading shard]

Yet gms knows about him

[honest sun]

DOES¿

[fading shard]

and so does the godseeker and city of steel and grimm

[toxic mulch]

Yes...as in she knows about hallownest after it's ruler is dead

[zinc cloud]

whats the city of steel?

[fading shard]

the place zi and jinn come from

[frosty gate]

Do you guys think Pilgrimage started while the Weavers were constructing the Citadel

[toxic mulch]

Nothing implies she knows about godhome?

[zinc cloud]

oh

[fading shard]

I said that the thunder of storms, city of steel and grimm know of hallownest

[toxic mulch]

Ah

[honest sun]

does higher beings inhabit godhome¿

[toxic mulch]

Well Grimm troupe only know of hallownest after being summoned

[fading shard]

they knew about it from the start

Grimm even name drops the pale king with a mocking title of worm

[toxic mulch]

Strange,they act like they've never heard of it after being summoned

[fading shard]

There is dialogue he has about the pale king

[twin dragon]

First sinner was most likely imprisoned by weavers

[fading shard]

Honestly almost everyone knows of hallownest

unlike other nations hallownest is known by all

which really shows how prosprous it was

[toxic mulch]

I'm aware they just weirdly act confused about the place when you summon them

[honest sun]

well, he made the vessels in the void, just add some silk while they birth or form and there you go

new hollow knight game

[fading shard]

You know I wonder why hallownest is known by seemingly everyone

[honest sun]

oh rlly

[lean temple]

A Pale Wyrm is likely a big target for attention

Not only a pale being, but a Wyrm as well

[fading shard]

Yeah but EVERYBODY somehow knows

[honest sun]

but it is smaller than pharloom, wouldnt pharloom be more known¿

[toxic mulch]

That's also a bit interesting because if were to assume other kingdoms are similar size to pharloom then hallownest is quite small even in the first games entire map they aren't in control of it all

[twin dragon]

Is there any info on why or how are the weavers imprisoned in different parts of pharloom?

[fading shard]

Every single nation we know of has heard of the place

[toxic mulch]

GMS wanted their silk

[twin dragon]

She binded them all

[honest sun]

gms is calling, she wants her silk back

[lean temple]

Well, the city of steel knows about everyone it seems, the Masters' long gaze. And Hallownest is where a whole clan of Weavers set up shop so GMS can use her silken sight to find them.

[twin dragon]

What we bind with those monuments are most likely the remains of those weavers

so how the fuck did they end up there

[solar oriole]

I believe so. They also needed people to build the Citadel, right? Needolin dialogue from nameless town:

"The weaving ones beckon...
Sweet promises whispered...
From depths below...
Friends seduced...
Now only the wind..."

[fading shard]

Bsides unlike the other nations hallownest is a huge tourist atraction

[lean temple]

And the grimm troupe seemingly knows and is known by many other HBs

[fading shard]

It keeps inviting adventurers and scholars from different nations and lands

some that we still don't know the origin of

Pharloom didn't even have this

all they had were bugs that were native to pharloom

[lean temple]

Well yeah bcz it is hell to live in

[toxic mulch]

Pharloom had the pilgrims but not really tourists

[lean temple]

All they have is false promises and lies

[fading shard]

The pilgrims come from pharloom

It's confirmed

By the caretaker

[solar oriole]

What... what makes you say that?

[fading shard]

it's all a whole long plot by the cidatel

[toxic mulch]

I mean clearly pharloom has foreign visitors

[fading shard]

name one

[toxic mulch]

Shakra

[fading shard]

Shakra comes from the outskirts of pharloom

[lean temple]

A tribe from Pharloom's edge

So not very far

[graceful grail]

Guys, does Grimmchild inherit TKs cloak color?

[fading shard]

and don't mention garmond and zaza as the haunting affected their village

[twin dragon]

Weavers had this divine persona

And the slab hadn't been built when gms was active

[toxic mulch]

I do wonder where their village is supposed to be

[fading shard]

so we know they are from pharloom somewhere

[fading shard]

Do you think hallownest it'd be a stretch if hallownest in it's prime was the most succesful and prosperous kingdom in the hollow knight universe

[toxic mulch]

Other than the nameless town which obviously isn't correct where else could they come from? Mosshome is a haunted village but I kinda doubt they're from there

[fading shard]

other then city of steel

Because with what we know everything points to this being the cse

[twin dragon]

Pharloom is a military megachurch that devolved into being one giant scheme to keep gms weakened

[lean temple]

We don't know how vast the HK world is nor how many kingdoms are in it, but prime Hallownest was a solid place that much seems certain.

[toxic mulch]

The only weird thing is hallownest really wasn't all that big,most of the tribes around them didn't all become hallownest territory

[foggy swan]

How are the bugs of Pharloom sentient?

[fading shard]

none of them were othe then the moth tribe

[twin dragon]

Pharloom would've been fine if gms kept ruling like she did before

[lean temple]

Bcz PK didn't overtake them, unlike a certain GMS and her kids.

[fading shard]

And the queens garden was taken by the white lady for all we know before the pale king arrived

[heavy gyro]

Some bugs can become sentient on their own, but i like to think that there was a wyrm in ancient pharloom history

[toxic mulch]

I'd imagine white lady was there before him

[twin dragon]

and if the citadel didn't kill off most regions in pharloom

[toxic mulch]

I mean perhaps GMS can give sentience as well? She's another pale being so it's possible but idk how likely that'd be

[heavy gyro]

She gave sentience to the pharlids

[fading shard]

hallownest wasn't small

yes we have a far smaller map of hallownest then pharloom

[honest sun]

im sure all pharloom would be better if they were under pk's reign

[fading shard]

but that's not out of plot reasons

[toxic mulch]

Hallownest proper was pretty much just city of tears

[fading shard]

it wasn't

there were other towns and locals

hallownest span through a lot of areas

and we know we missed a lot of hallownests true size by how many places we didn't get to see in it

that technically would be there

[toxic mulch]

Other than dirtmouth and obviously palace grounds I don't remember any other proper settlement belonging to hallownest

[fading shard]

Besides the backrounds all the areas show them to span very deep

[zinc cloud]

mantis village?

[fading shard]

There is a town in the crossroads

[fading shard]

Mantis village isn't part of hallownest T_T

[toxic mulch]

The mantis tribe are in a truce with hallownest but are not governed by them

[fading shard]

listen I can't give definitive proof pancayke but it's severely implied

Hallownest is a Lot bigger then what we got to see

[toxic mulch]

Fair enough but still hallownest proper seems quite small just compared to pharloom proper but we don't know any other kingdoms sizes,maybe both are absolutely miniscule

[fading shard]

And the fact that the hornet dlc was meant to show new areas

[zinc cloud]

its in hallownest so

[fading shard]

and bosses

and we see a few different locals in hornets red memory

showcases that we didn't get to see everything

[toxic mulch]

I wish the blur wasn't so heavy on both games,there's so much background detail lost

[honest sun]

would thk beat hornet¿

[fading shard]

well ccmaki made a whole video doing so

[toxic mulch]

No but the knight has

[fading shard]

and it's why I even state that hallownest is a lot more vast then you think

Because in a lot of places we see the corridors span further and further in the backround

very specifically in pale king owned territories

[solar oriole]

??
I wrote that the Citadel imprisoned First Sinner.
Needolin dialogue of the Pontiff in Whispering Vaults:

"Damned bugs...
We prayed a cage...
We sang your chains...
Divine Silk..."

[toxic mulch]

I'd love a proper 3d map of both kingdoms

[twin dragon]

referring to gms

[lean temple]

I mean bigger doesn't mean better anyway. Pharloom is big but living there sucks

[twin dragon]

Not to first sinner by any means

[zinc cloud]

fr i really wish to know the geography of how pharloom and hn and other areas line up

[fading shard]

you do agree with me that hallownest is bigger then what we got to see right blue

[lean temple]

They're talking about GMS

[twin dragon]

Plus FS would have no reason to be around when the citadel ruled

[fading shard]

or am I the only one here rn in chat that's gonna say so

[lean temple]

Well yeah ofc, but same thing with Pharloom. The whole missing z axis

[fading shard]

Anyhow hallownests military would beat all of prime pharloom

[twin dragon]

Pharloom as a whole seemed more military oriented

[fading shard]

Blue I'd be suprised if you agreed

[twin dragon]

Disagree, hallownest doesn't even have one

[lean temple]

Against its own people

Hallownest has won battles/wars

[twin dragon]

We don't rlly know if they conquered land soo

[honest sun]

whats worse, taking your newborn kids into the path of pain just to seal a god within them or creating a kid of silk to have your revenge over your own kin

[toxic mulch]

I think after seeing the atrocities of the citadel we owe pk an apology,at least he didn't abuse his normal subjects

[twin dragon]

Pharloom has so many more specialized units

And the kingdom as a whole is literally militarized to hell

[fading shard]

He didn't abuse anybody T_T

That aren't his kids

[lean temple]

Seamstress alone took down a Chorus so they're not what they're chalked up to be

[twin dragon]

The uh.. The hollow uh knight he uh..

[fading shard]

nubbie

[twin dragon]

yeah the rest fucking died btw

[fading shard]

there were 3 seamstresses

[toxic mulch]

PK can be labelled as doing what he believed to be a necessary evil,the citadel actually just brainwashed and used it's citizens

[twin dragon]

Not rlly

[lean temple]

Just have Hegemol chuck a boulder at it

[honest sun]

what about this guys

[fading shard]

the other one is in bloody bile water

[twin dragon]

it is stated to be an entire order

[gentle aspen]

yes they do?

[fading shard]

my guy the kingsmoulds, crstral golems? the bloody sentinels

[edgy barn]

I don't think that's a fair statement. We only know of the battle of the blackwyrm and we know exactly 0% of what happened there.

[twin dragon]

Those WILL be a challenge for pharloom

[gentle aspen]

city of tears is filled with their troops

[twin dragon]

are they even troops or guards

[lean temple]

The Knotted Grove and the Champion's Call

[toxic mulch]

Does pharloom even have a military?

[fading shard]

troops

and guards

[twin dragon]

the whole kingdom is a military

[edgy barn]

how do you know those are battles?

[honest sun]

just let the pk make a bunch of them and pharloom will be CLAIMED

[edgy barn]

that's also untrue.

[toxic mulch]

Pharlooms primary troops don't really seem like actual soldiers like the HK ones

[lean temple]

Not explicitly but Ogrim calls them "glories" alongside the Blackwyrm

[twin dragon]

Mans cant control the void forever..

Itll slip, and he'll pay

[gentle aspen]

just because pilgrims can fight doesn’t mean they’re military

[fading shard]

I do think it's fair to say they could be

[fast lagoon]

was pk not under the belief that hallownest was the last remaining kingdom or was he just lying

[gentle aspen]

???

[twin dragon]

the whole citadel mb

[sinful nimbus]

Hallownest doesn't even have giant worker golems

[gentle aspen]

That’s literally not a thing

[lean temple]

It may have been a failed promise tbh

[twin dragon]

fym

[gentle aspen]

crystal golems were workers

[honest sun]

just send MILLIONS of vessels and pharloom is over

[fading shard]

it was a failed promise

[twin dragon]

Ok that can work yeah

[edgy barn]

the common choir bugs only fight because they are haunted

[toxic mulch]

He probably knew other kingdoms existed but thought hallownest would outlast them all

[twin dragon]

Except those yknow

[limpid summit]

It was likely a lore tablet for when he was, a promise as Blue said

[fading shard]

they do

[gentle aspen]

kingsmoulds don’t “slip”

[twin dragon]

At one point they turned into the other guys

[edgy barn]

same for the underworkers and others like ministros

[toxic mulch]

That's why he states hallownest would be the eternal kingdom

[twin dragon]

Void slipping out of control that's what i meant, why you're taking it too literally

[twin dragon]

ministers can perfectly be the commanders

[toxic mulch]

I do wonder if pk thought he'd rule forever though

[fading shard]

oh hey pale joker

nice seeing you here

[solar oriole]

"Damned bugs... (Damned Weavers)
We prayed a cage... (a cage from Weavers to imprison GMS)
We sang your chains...
Divine Silk..."

The text looks to show that after realizing that the Citadel was used to chain GMS they started cursing the Weavers.

[twin dragon]

If they're trained