sk-lore

[bronze turret]

True, and further than that it's hinted that each bug type seems to have their own inclinations and customs as well

[fading shard]

Because yes I know people keep forgetting to mention this but he was canonically a great partner

the white lady will not shut up about it

and before you say no he did not cheat on his wife

[simple hedge]

She had to wrap herself up to stop fawning over him

[fading shard]

She states that she was consentual to that part of the plan

states as much when talking about hornet

[simple hedge]

And she even raised Hornet, so it must've been okay anyway

[raw pewter]

Mhm, just like us humans, they are complex, with their own cultures and customs, we only see it as "bad" because we now in a society where violence is seen as unnecessary and harmful, with that in mind I guess the bugs are exactly the same with olden days human (with tribes, kingdoms, etc)
I know I am stating the obvious here, no need to "No shit Sherlock" me

[opaque pier]

Probably because she never got to raise her kids

I forgot to reply to the message lol

[fading shard]

The infantcide is in general though considered to be a heinous act in teh plot

Hornet says so, the lore tablets say so, the pale king THINKS SO

listen you know it's bad if the guy commiting it himself thinks its bad and feels shame and guilt over it

[opaque pier]

The white lady says so TWICE

[silk dirge]

yeah the whole thing with the vessels is they regretted it but saw no other choice

[raw pewter]

It is yeah, those bugs are more evolved so of course they have sense of morality

[silk dirge]

it's a tragic story

pale king is meant to be a tragic person I think

he was a good king who had to make a massive sacrifice ultimately to fail

[raw pewter]

But if it's something like, say the Flukemarm I doubt she would feel guilt about her children dying

[silk dirge]

also speaking of flukemarm whats up with fluke hermit

[raw pewter]

Because she is less sentient compare to other civilized bugs

[silk dirge]

why can she speak

flukes dont seem like a sapient species

[opaque pier]

I doubt flukemarm feels anything at allb😭

[raw pewter]

Influence from the Pale King perhaps? Elevating that particular Fluke to be more intelligent than the others

[silk dirge]

but hes dead so idk

[edgy barn]

maybe she is learning the language from stuff that washes into the junk pit?

[silk dirge]

idk

[raw pewter]

Sentient and intelligent doesn't seem to be an exclusive thing to Hallownest, Pale King only elevate the bugs to be more civilized, but outside of Hallownest there are bugs who are sentient by their own means, so it could just be normal evolution type of thing

[fading shard]

Zza here's a question for you

[opaque pier]

And besides his "beacon" still lingers even after his death

[fading shard]

where would you place every higher being in a morality chart

[silk dirge]

yeah but flukes dont seem like one of them

[fading shard]

good to bad

[silk dirge]

fluke hermit seems more intelligent than all others

[silk dirge]

unn at the top

[blissful harbor]

why you so racist towards flukes
just cause they’re gross they could be sentient

[raw pewter]

Of course, but maybe that particular Hermit is a one in million type of thing you know? Very unlikely, but possible

[opaque pier]

Unn s tier, everything else ass tier

[silk dirge]

possibly

[blissful harbor]

she’s the only one not infected, not a lot of other flukes to accurately compare with really

[silk dirge]

true

[fading shard]

everyone?

[opaque pier]

Yeah everyone else

[fading shard]

even pale king and white lady?

[opaque pier]

Yeah

[silk dirge]

anyways in terms of morality of higher beings I would probably go

1. shade lord
2. unn
3. white lady & pk(they had no other choice)
4. nmh
5. gms
6. radiance

[raw pewter]

Uhh well Pale King is on the grey side, Radiance and GMS is on the badder side, Unn is pretty neutral I think, not good or bad, White Lady I feel is a little better than Pale King, but no by much

[blissful harbor]

the heart is pretty chill, it’s just a scavenger

[opaque pier]

The pale king knew that there were already bugs living there he shouldve known the concequences of dealing with the radiance

[blissful harbor]

grave robbing is it’s worst crime

[opaque pier]

I mean he even had foresight for that

[silk dirge]

what

[tender thorn]

I'd put gms above nmh tbh

[silk dirge]

its the moths fault

the moths decided to abandon the radiance

[fading shard]

It's the moths fault not his own

[raw pewter]

The Nightmare Heart.... They looks evil, but in term of feeding nightmare essence from dying Kingdom they don't seem to be that bad, they are just feeding off of dying Kingdom and not causing the destruction of said dying kingdoms

[silk dirge]

pk did nothing to deserve that

[fading shard]

Beside that was hundreds of years in the future

Yes the pale king had implications of foresight but nothing states he had such a far extent to predict that would happen

[opaque pier]

Yeah if pk wanted the moths to worship him he shouldve known their previous god would get angry

[tender thorn]

Oh yeah let's ignore getting people into their group against their will and not letting them leave
That's called kidnapping

[fading shard]

He didn't though

They joined HIM

[blissful harbor]

they are allowed to leave
brumm literally does

[fading shard]

Not him forcing them to join him

They went out of their own way to join him blunt

[raw pewter]

Ooo you're right, I didn't think about that, I am a little rusty on the Nightmare Troupe lore

[fading shard]

it's said as much

[vestal swan]

It's a runaway with the circus type of deal, he just removed his mask and forgot who he was after he got kicked out

[silk dirge]

only after you banish them

[opaque pier]

He couldve just said "yo dont do allat give attention to your own god i dont want no smoke"

[blissful harbor]

Divine is allowed to stay behind to finish her business if you didn’t finish her quest line
the heart is pretty chill in regards to the troupe

[blissful harbor]

yea he got kicked out for kicking them out of the kingdom

[raw pewter]

As for Shade Lord.... Given how destructive the void seems to be I wouldn't put him as a "good" higher being, but I also won't put him as a bad one either

[edgy barn]

Brumm can't leave on his own no matter how much he wants to. he has to get the knight and conspire in secret to banish the troupe.

[silk dirge]

i mean its 2/2 on being a good guy in games

it killed the radiance and saved hornet

[opaque pier]

The shade lord is just a chill hungry dude

[fading shard]

the knight and the shade lord are not the same thing

well maybe not

[silk dirge]

they kinda are

[fading shard]

I said maybe

[opaque pier]

The knight is just part of the shade lord

[raw pewter]

Sure, but in Embrace the Void Ending (Without the Delicate Flower) we could see the void leaking out of the Godseeker and reacting really violently

[sinful nimbus]

It does that in DNM too

[fading shard]

it does not

[silk dirge]

i dont think he knew what was going on with them

[vestal swan]

The knight is the shade Lord

[blissful harbor]

Brumm wants it to stop because he sees it as a repeating cycle and wants hallownest to rest, he doesn’t banish the heart because he wants to leave
he literally talks about how it pains him to betray grimm
i don’t think he ever mentions like wanting to leave the troupe

[sinful nimbus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-9AhZJrk_g&t=10s

[raw pewter]

The Knight and the Shades literally saved Hornet from the Void

[fading shard]

here it disapears

[silk dirge]

i highly doubt pk knew about radiance before the infection

[sinful nimbus]

Why would you assume it doesn't do that in ETV

[fading shard]

and beside that's just the black egg

[raw pewter]

They are made of Void, but the Void itself seem to kill indiscriminately

[opaque pier]

I thought the shade lord was the knight and all of their siblings who ascended through combat

[sinful nimbus]

No it doesn't

[silk dirge]

ununified void is bad void unified under the knight is good

[vestal swan]

The big Kaiju body is the lake combined with TK but TK is still in control no matter how you look at it

[sinful nimbus]

Void's default behaviour is chilling in the abyss it doesn't actively seek out conflict

[vestal swan]

We don't see any sibling eyes when the Kaiju was formed

[opaque pier]

Still his fault, if you wanna make a kingdom yoh should be mindful of all possible happenings

[sinful nimbus]

But that's irrelevant since Hallownest void is under the will of The Knight

[silk dirge]

he made a treaty with the mantises

its all the moths fault

[edgy barn]

"Master... are even you a slave? If so, let our chains be broken together!" -Brumm's dream nail dialogue when banishing the troupe. he also talks about how even grimmchild was born chained when you talk to him in distant village.

[vestal swan]

Brumms an idiot

[opaque pier]

Yeah and the mantises didnt have a powerful god to worship

[raw pewter]

Yes, if they are in the Abyss, but if a bug is inside the Abyss the Void will literally kill the bugs, the Void Tendrils are trying to reach Hornet violenty and hurt her

[sinful nimbus]

Brumm's dialogue is entirely nonsensical when you consider that Grimm and the Nightmare Heart are the same being, idk what TC thought they were cooking there

It's kinda the precursor to Hornet's yap in SS

[vestal swan]

Brumm tried to interrupt the ritual while not understanding the heart's intentions and thinking that everybody was sick of the cycle and he got kicked out as a result

Grimm is not the heart, he's a body that the heart can wear when it wants to

[blissful harbor]

hes basically the heart

[fading shard]

Grimm and the heart are not the same

[vestal swan]

No

[lilac monolith]

so he's a glorified cape?

[blissful harbor]

the heart in a circus performer skin

[vestal swan]

They wouldn't need to be tied together with a ritual if they were already the same thing

[sinful nimbus]

"My body is not me its a body I can pilot whenever I want to" thanks cuh

[raw pewter]

He's the host of the heart, because the heart need a host to interact with the real world

[fading shard]

grimm is just a host for the heart basically

[sinful nimbus]

White Lady says they are the same entity idk why this is in debate

[fading shard]

it's a repeating cycle and ritual to keep it immortal

[vestal swan]

He's an avatar, a vessel for a god

[fading shard]

that's the most accurate statement

[raw pewter]

Mhm, agreed

[sinful nimbus]

"You may be all and one, clan and master"

[blissful harbor]

hes like a mask basically for the heart using SS and HK logic

[sinful nimbus]

Its literally just all the nightmare heart

Brumm and Divine being exceptions

[limpid summit]

And the Steeds

[sinful nimbus]

And Hornet

[limpid summit]

Imagine making sentient beings walk around like horses for the bit

[raw pewter]

By that logic everyone in the Nightmare troupe is the Nightmare Heart, and clearly that's not the case since Brumm isn't

[blissful harbor]

brumm and divine are outside recruits

[limpid summit]

It’s just saying that the Heart “of the Troupe” is also the master

[vestal swan]

That doesn't really make sense actually that implies they are changing personality when he really just is the body for walking around what is that fucking rattling noise

[cedar skiff]

whats the discussion

[sinful nimbus]

Brumm and Divine are exceptions as I just stated

[limpid summit]

I feel like Grimm has some personality but he’s not entirely autonomous

It’s not the Heart speaking through him directly

[sinful nimbus]

Grimm is clearly the same NMH is stated to be his heart and he's the vessel for it, Grimmkin are just nightmare essence spirits

[limpid summit]

The heart just counts on him to get stuff done

But he’s essentially the Heart mechanically either way

[sinful nimbus]

The game treats them as the same entity regardless so its kinda irrelevant

[blissful harbor]

the personality difference between NKG and Grimm does indeed exist

[sinful nimbus]

Grimmchild/Grimm are also the same entity and Grimm doesn't care so idk why Brumm is saying its a bad thing

[cedar skiff]

the troupe is really really cool aesthetically and conceptually but holy shit nightmare heart lore is some nonsense

[limpid summit]

I mean GC doesn’t have the Heart in it

But the current vessel is the same

[sinful nimbus]

Team Cherry when they realize some players don't want to fight NKG so they have to ruin all the lore they put in for fun

[fading shard]

because it's a messed up ritual

[limpid summit]

Why would TC make a HB with basically no agenda

[sinful nimbus]

Why

[vestal swan]

I mean for the heart, if grimm is the mask then that's a little backwards

[sinful nimbus]

The ritual is literally fine like ???

Its just harvesting some nightmare essence

[blissful harbor]

grave robbing is immoral

[limpid summit]

The game lets you make your own decision as Brumm wonders if it’s a good thing but he also says he won’t fault you if you do it

[blissful harbor]

but besides that heart is chill

[limpid summit]

That’s just because he doesn’t remember his past

He may have joined willingly he may not have

[sinful nimbus]

Removing fearful thoughts from the dead isn't really analogous

[raw pewter]

The Nightmare Troupe lore is making my head hurt

[vestal swan]

Wait through this conversation is somebody still arguing the heart is evil? One of their members basically has a tantrum saying they want to get out and they get set free?

[lilac monolith]

it's a nightmare....

[sinful nimbus]

The game does portray the heart as evil sometimes

Team Cherry has a vendetta against all their higher beings except Unn apparently

[fading shard]

do you think the heart is evil

[cedar skiff]

So what is the connection back to silksong

[fading shard]

or what

[vestal swan]

Nothing about the hearts actions are evil

[cedar skiff]

im trying to Understand whats happening here

[blissful harbor]

it’s sinister, it’s whole thing is nightmares
but i think it’s more of the “unknowable god” kinda way rather than malicious

[lilac monolith]

it's a metaphor for fascism!

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance? Evil
GMS? Evil colonizer
Pale King? Evil colonizer
White Lady? Evil colonizer too but Hornet is chill for some reason
Shade Lord? Yeah lets slap some sinister music on top, why not?
Nightmare Heart? Grimmchild is a SLAVE

[raw pewter]

*Le Gasp Hollow Knight is political???!!

[lilac monolith]

also can we stop forgetting how nyleth is also just chill like unn

[sinful nimbus]

Ignore that the Pale King White Lady Shade Lord and Nightmare Heart never did anything wrong

They're totally evil just trust us guys

[sinful nimbus]

No the heck its not lmao

If NMH and PK and WL are genuinely supposed to be political statements that's kinda baffling writing

[blissful harbor]

i refuse to believe she’s a Hb

[lilac monolith]

for authoritarianism then?

[raw pewter]

Monarchy

[sinful nimbus]

That's only applicable to the citadel really

[cedar skiff]

to be fair hornet is portrayed as imperfect due to her higher nature (cough the shit she says about the slab flies)

[sinful nimbus]

PK and WL were completely fine

[limpid summit]

Citadel isn’t a bad allegory PK is a bad one because his actions are almost always objectively good

[fading shard]

When was the pale king a evil coloniser star what

[sinful nimbus]

But her deity parent wasn't racist

[vestal swan]

She has feats and was given a shrine as part of a peace deal comparatively a green prince offered himself up and they still got fucking wiped out

[sinful nimbus]

"Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."

[cedar skiff]

eh yeah to tie it to the ongoing thing i guess it comes from the more evidently political critique angle they took for silksongs storyline as opposed to hk

[fading shard]

I mean she was talking about all higher beings not specifically the pale king

[edgy barn]

her heart has the same power as that prince's.

[cedar skiff]

which does retroactively put some things in hk in a weird angle

[fading shard]

it's more shows her resentment for all higher beings not for the pale king specifically and white lady catching smoke

[sinful nimbus]

The Pale King is a higher being and he didn't do that, he's also the only Pale Being she actually knows along with White Lady (Who didn't do that either)

[blissful harbor]

she has a feat similar to one from the first game
i really think she’s like isma on steroids
knowing what we know from nyleth, seems like isma sprouted and created the entire grove
nyleth sprouted and created an entire fucking region but yk
just on steriods

[raw pewter]

I've seen people say that the four hearts are Higher Beings

[fading shard]

What about unn?

[sinful nimbus]

This wasn't even necessary

[vestal swan]

It has the same amount of strength to be used as a catalyst for a spell, that's like a power level thing not really a higher being qualifications thing

[fading shard]

she knows of unn

[vestal swan]

Reply fail

[blissful harbor]

karmelita pretty explicitly says she’s mortal

[cedar skiff]

i mean silksong does tackle hornets position of privilege briefly and i mean very briefly

[sinful nimbus]

Imagine if Lord of the Rings had a sequel that was about how monarchy is kinda bad actually and then there's a million pieces of dialogue talking about how absolutely evil Aragorn was

That's what Silksong feels like

[fading shard]

nyleth being a higher being is up to debate

actually no

[edgy barn]

the spell is said to require power equal to that of GMS, meaning three hearts together match it.

[fading shard]

hold on she was said to be a powerful regular bug

[silk dirge]

maybe its bc australia used to be british

[vestal swan]

That's a horrible comparison considering we don't know anything about what Isma actually did, just calling her another character on steroids when you don't know what the other characters actually capable of is just horribly wrong

[raw pewter]

I know, yet some people seems to think that just because a bug is powerful enough to rival Higher Beings, that the mortal bugs are higher beings too

[fading shard]

and I say regular as in not higher being

[cedar skiff]

i began viewing silksong as a spin off rather than a direct sequel meant to support the main story

[sinful nimbus]

Which is bad writing because Hornet's royal status is external to Pharloom

[limpid summit]

Isn’t nyleth said to be like not a bug by the shamans

[cedar skiff]

it does different things with the characters and puts it in different context

[limpid summit]

Is Isma ever called a bug or not a bug

[sinful nimbus]

She's not part of the oppressors like at all

[edgy barn]

not really.

[raw pewter]

Bugs made of plants perhaps?

[fading shard]

Isma is a bug

[blissful harbor]

we see she sprouted and turned into plant life, that’s like literally what nyleth did wdym we don’t know what she did we see it

[fading shard]

She's said to be a powerful bug

[vestal swan]

Again, power levels is not the same as higher being qualification

[edgy barn]

according to who?

[sinful nimbus]

Why didn't they make a new IP if they were going to completely rewrite everything anyway

[edgy barn]

She's said to be "not really a bug". and a like, she's a plant.

[vestal swan]

We don't know anything about Isma besides the fact that she died and turned into a tree

[blissful harbor]

assuming she’s dead

[sinful nimbus]

Heck if it was a new IP you could make Hornet's privileged position actually relevant like at all

[fading shard]

we do know more about her

[raw pewter]

Wait I am a bit loss, what are we talking about now?

[blissful harbor]

again, i’m just comparing the very obvious similarities
it’s clearly intentional, nyleth literally just has ismas face

[vestal swan]

There's no logic to her being alive, her dream nail dialogue is not something you get from a living person, there's no interaction to be had with her and the only person that has possibly interacted with her is in denial

[cedar skiff]

she does have a position of privilege in pharloom though. a lot of bugs offer their service simply due to the fact that shes a „first child“ (for example) am i a fan of how silksong handles some things regarding this? ehh i wish it was explored more but like, there was an attempt

[fading shard]

She was referred to as kindly isma, and she and ogrim had a very close bond and

[fading shard]

She was apparently quite powerful as ogrim wanted to teach him her ways

[terse warren]

The benefits of being friends with Nyleth: the passage through Shellwood is safe for all pilgrims

The benefits of being friends with Verdania: Gay tango

[sinful nimbus]

The 12th architect is the only character to do that AFAIK and its not within the context of social commentary at all

[raw pewter]

She has privileges because she's part Weaver, as we know Pharloom used to worship Weavers

[silk dirge]

cardinius as well

[vestal swan]

Yaoi Kuma arashi

[cedar skiff]

the vaultkeeper also does

[limpid summit]

Eh the Vaultkeeper does do just that but I agree

[fading shard]

Weapon read this

[fading shard]

this is all true

[edgy barn]

we don't know the context of that though. It could be a memory from long ago when they had just become warriors.

[fading shard]

Powdered

[blissful harbor]

idk what you mean about the dnd, and again, she’s plant now
theres no interaction to be had with nyleth in the current day either, hornet has to visit the past
i really just don’t understand your logic ngl

[terse warren]

Anyways I also don't think Nyleth is a higher being, the feats are kinda eh

[blissful harbor]

she did create an entire region

[sinful nimbus]

Whatever commentary about privilege there could hypothetically be is kinda undermined by the fact that the kingdom is actively hostile towards you

[blissful harbor]

that’s pretty big

[bronze turret]

Turns out it's the Vaultkeeper that tells being half Weaver gives Hornet some privileges

[silk dirge]

i think nyLETH is a joke on how leth doesnt do anything /j

[limpid summit]

I think Silksong is a good game in the Hollow Knight universe but I think on the large front it doesn’t carry over concepts amazingly from HK - sort of understandable because of the vastly different themes but still noticeable

[cedar skiff]

look it being good writing or making any sense is kinda a different thing to tackle but they were definitely trying to do something with that. i mean hornet literally questions whether she looked enough in the crevices of her own kingdom because she sees how shitty the underworks are

[raw pewter]

A lot of them are hostile because of the Haunting

[edgy barn]

Nyleth didn't create Shellwood as much as she grew into forming it. Like, it wasn't an Unn-Greenpath type of deal.

[bronze turret]

I think it depends on what sort of themes each person likes best as well.

[sinful nimbus]

Sure

[blissful harbor]

ik

[vestal swan]

Create/spawn a whole forest and control it, and some weird supernatural possession of a seemingly normal bug and keeping him alive
Vs
Die and grow a fruit on your body

[sinful nimbus]

They were doing SOMETHING its just awful and completely stupid

[terse warren]

Rocks colliding created the planet she's not that special 🥀

[blissful harbor]

what i’m saying, is if isma is something similar to nyleth
it’s possible the entire grove grew from her, like all the plants we see
they came from somewhere

[terse warren]

Isma is also creating a whole grove btw

[fading shard]

That is true

[vestal swan]

Isma doesn't necessarily have to be the creator of that grove she could have been swallowed by it

[sinful nimbus]

Bro thinks The Voice is still a concept

[blissful harbor]

why assume that

[cedar skiff]

and honestly, i wish it was explored on a more relevant level. how hornet grapples with her divinity and status would have been super interesting. her hatred and criticism of pale beings could have been self loathing. (its my hc but i dont think it was intended) seeing as she had to fight the side of her that wanted to dominate gms. could have been fun…. le sigh

[terse warren]

Isma's Grove reportedly not Isma's anymore

[vestal swan]

Ismas grove, the title given by the guy who won't go visit her and doesn't know she's dead

[fading shard]

I meant as in not a higher being

[limpid summit]

“Source of acid blight” it’s her

[sinful nimbus]

Esmond

[fading shard]

I don't remember actually now that I think about it

[limpid summit]

Esmy

[terse warren]

Major spelling mistake, go home big dawg

[bronze turret]

I think the theory stems (no pun intended) from the fact that there are no adjacent locations with the same sort of plant that we see growing in the grove

[sinful nimbus]

Imagine how cinema it would be if Nyleth's guardian was a dung beetle

Proving its a symbiotic relationship

[blissful harbor]

star we need you in that office

[raw pewter]

Any beetle is dung if they shit enough

[fading shard]

Okay but seth?

[blissful harbor]

seth shouldn’t have been there ngl

[vestal swan]

You just imagined a headcanon where your idea makes sense you lost the argument

[fading shard]

Come on star you gotta think about seths origin for a bit

[edgy barn]

wait no if they had done that you would be critizing them for recycling ideas.

[fading shard]

are you talking to me or star

[bronze turret]

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes" - A very wise ma-- it's Halsin from Baldur's Gate 3

[silk dirge]

star can have cooking ideas and then pull out the "im just a taste tester not a chef"

[blissful harbor]

very conductive to discussion

[raw pewter]

Wouldn't look too good for Team Cherry if they make the Cancer's Patient character be related to dung

[terse warren]

I mean didn't you just imagine that Isma's Grove isn't sprouted from Isma

[sinful nimbus]

Look its not the concept of recycling ideas I'm against per se but its the sheer quantity of recycled ideas

[vestal swan]

That's not imagining anything?

[spark valve]

are people still coping about isma's grove not growing out of her like it obviously visually is

[terse warren]

Powdered is doing that yes

[fading shard]

but we see that it isn't bad T_T

[spark valve]

unsurprising

[fading shard]

We explore hallownest and get to see it first hand

[cedar skiff]

this would all be so awesome if team cherry didn’t completely forget about isma forever

[fading shard]

even if it's withered decayed state

[bronze turret]

That's not recycling, it's how a franchise's identity is built upon; recurring themes

[fading shard]

we still get to learn it's society

[sinful nimbus]

I didn't know stealing spells and soul from shamans is an integral theme to the franchise

[vestal swan]

No this is pretty much recycling, there's so many things that are basically just copy pasted and flipped

[sinful nimbus]

Is the sprintmaster clan relevant to the franchise's identity

[limpid summit]

Groal is peak but he is literally mechanically just SM lol

[limpid summit]

Okay this is a callback stop negging

[cedar skiff]

well to be fair silksong was supposed to be merely dlc

[terse warren]

A neat callback that draws parallels between similar characters isn't a recycled idea

[fading shard]

EXACTLY

[limpid summit]

Im playing both sides today

[cedar skiff]

i think a lot of its similarities to the predecessor are to blame on that

[sinful nimbus]

But its not

[fading shard]

like star come on now you ever thought of the cancer patient

[spark valve]

nyleth is a fun callback

[fading shard]

callback to what

[sinful nimbus]

I didn't say you had to scrap Seth from the game

[hearty bolt]

so uh, how

it's not even infected so.....

[cedar skiff]

for a good chunk of the definitive writing process it was intended as dlc

[vestal swan]

Sprintmaster existing in silksong was pretty lame, like there was absolutely no reason that at the edge of this part of the region we're just going to find some dude practicing his sprints?? For a mask shard??

[spark valve]

isma

[terse warren]

I know damn well someone is gonna say "well Team Cherry has a lore bible, they probably are and you just don't know, they know what they're doing you shouldn't assume, just wait for DLC"

[limpid summit]

There’s no way there was another 3 maguffin quest in Hornet DLC that’s all Team Cherry

[sinful nimbus]

Or that you would have to make him a dung beetle idk what you guys are talking about

[fading shard]

the two are unrelated

[blissful harbor]

apparently she’s not reminiscent of isma at all and we are crazy

[frosty gate]

It was fun

[limpid summit]

Swift is so cool he’s both Sprintmaster and Dashmaster

[raw pewter]

I'm sorry, but are you criticizing that a sequel has similar themes and concepts to the original?

[limpid summit]

HK Romeo and Juliet implications

[sinful nimbus]

Yes.

[cedar skiff]

To have some fun

[spark valve]

they really aren't have you looked at either of them

[sinful nimbus]

Mind you this sequel was advertised as more of a spinoff than anything

[hearty bolt]

[terse warren]

Me when I don't read any message in the discussion

[sinful nimbus]

So you can't pull the "What did you expect" argument because I expected exactly what was advertised

[cedar skiff]

I was cheesing racing the sprintmaster this matters more than satisfactory treatment of a totally irrelevant part of the lore

[blissful harbor]

oh yea, nyleth also literally has ismas flower skirt

[limpid summit]

Star is wrong about the Sprintmaster but try to understand the main point

[spark valve]

they're obviously meant to be the same type of being

[limpid summit]

A lot came back from HK in a weird way

[fading shard]

I mean on that I disagree with star about

[vestal swan]

I expected a fully disconnected story that might explain hornets backstory and instead we got like 12 retcons and a bunch of unnecessarily similar things

[cedar skiff]

it wasnt star who brought up sprintmaster no?

[sinful nimbus]

I did

[limpid summit]

Haha

[cedar skiff]

hornets backstory would not need a whole game to be explained

[fading shard]

What

[terse warren]

Jarvis I need more upvotes to give to this message

[cedar skiff]

ah welp.

[sinful nimbus]

And I'm not against bringing up sprintmaster specifically again its the quantity of recycled things not the action itself

[raw pewter]

Ok yes, the sequel have similar themes and concepts to the original, but the sequel also has their own original ideas, they expand on what the original game already has and also create their own identity

[limpid summit]

Jarvis I’m low on upvotes

[terse warren]

Very clearly it did considering the Weavers

[blissful harbor]

i expected weaver stuff and king of deepnest stuff

[frosty gate]

I guess we doing SKDiscussion in SSLore again, I'll come back when people stop hating

[limpid summit]

On GOD

[sinful nimbus]

Name some good ones

[fading shard]

is this making fun of star or are you being serious

[limpid summit]

I expected some peak spider tribe stuff

[cedar skiff]

oh yeah i do agree about the recycling in general, the first thing i clocked were the similarities between the infection storyline and the third act changes in severity and map look for example

[limpid summit]

Instead Vespa is more of a mother to Hornet than Midwife

[cedar skiff]

like i agree, thats kinda ehhh

[limpid summit]

0 Midwife mentions

[terse warren]

I like this game, therefore it should not be criticized

[cedar skiff]

but sprintmaster brought me joy.

[blissful harbor]

TRUEEE

[fading shard]

like I at this point have been on the internet so much that I can't tell

[vestal swan]

I'm being serious

[sinful nimbus]

The spider tribe literally lost everything

[fading shard]

Okay well I actually agree

[raw pewter]

Cogworks? Pharloom being more technological rather than magic based like Hallownest?

[vestal swan]

There's a lot i like about this game but there's also a lot I hate about this game

[fading shard]

The retcons are my problem

[frosty gate]

Weapon constantly complains about the retcons, they are being serious

[fading shard]

I hate the story

[sinful nimbus]

Hallownest had a ton of technology

[silk dirge]

something i like to pull out in these conversations are

"no one cares when a plane lands safely"

[fading shard]

I love the game but don't like the story twis

[sinful nimbus]

I do like the steampunk aesthetic though yes

[fading shard]

one of my favorite games but man does the story not work for me

[blissful harbor]

pharloom’s is a lot more widespread tbf

[bronze turret]

This is like saying Silent Hill is not supposed to use fog, barbed wire or monsters that are the manifestation of the person's darkest side in every installment of its sequels.

[terse warren]

If you're a passenger I'm pretty sure you do

[fading shard]

they were in the late 1800 era of technology

[frosty gate]

It's cool, I still liked it all as a whole

[spark valve]

the big original concept in silksong is the citadel and the way it interacts with the kingdom and how characters perceive it as a social structure which is good but gets completely tossed by the wayside in act 3 for key jingling

[limpid summit]

Most of Hallownest tech < most of Pharloom tech < crystal golems < cogworks < void automatons

[fading shard]

we even see them experimenting with elctricity

[silk dirge]

i meant like in the news

[fading shard]

Like monomon and the pale king were cracked in inventing stuff

can we agree

[silk dirge]

the point is it's a metaphor i see used for the fact bad shit gets reported on more than good shit

which is true for silksong

[blissful harbor]

you think crystal golems are better than the cogwork stuff? like the dancers??

[fading shard]

I do like the cidatel

[fading shard]

Everything about the cidatel I like

[blissful harbor]

horrible typo

[silk dirge]

talking about what the game does wrong is a much more interesting discussion than what it does right

[fading shard]

The hornet stuff i don't

[blissful harbor]

shush

[cedar skiff]

for what its worth i think lace is a good exploration of the whole thing with hollowness and what makes life life yadda yadda (albeit ill always stand for the fact we didnt get nearly enough lace), the daddy issues turned mommy issues is a thing i liked

[fading shard]

like listen the underworks is a great area

[sinful nimbus]

The Citadel is cool I especially liked the tasteful commentary on slavery with the slab

[fading shard]

and bilewater I find annoying gameplay wise but story wise I realyl like

[vestal swan]

Steampunk machines, cogwork robots, silk homunculus, almost all of which is powered by silk magic in one way or another
Vs
Crystal magic battery powered golems, speaker systems, indoor plumbing

They're both kind of equally magic and technology, weavers had cooler robots tho

[frosty gate]

Hollow Knight third era will be just Mechs

[cedar skiff]

yeah cogwork machinations being powered with soul as opposed to the pk doing his shit with void gas is awesome

[silk dirge]

robotics kid satisfaction

[cedar skiff]

theres a lot of parallels/rehashes that rock

[terse warren]

Who reacted with ✅ to this sarcasm 😭

[fading shard]

by speaker systems you mean the megaphones and well speakers we see

[light kelp]

And yet, void automatons and molds are the worst thing to serve

[fading shard]

Don't forget about the trams

[silk dirge]

i mean ignoring the hornet journal entries it is true

[fading shard]

and other technology

[limpid summit]

She’s speaking metaphorically

[vestal swan]

Trams had speakers, citadel had gramaphone style music boxes

[sinful nimbus]

Smartest Hornet journal entry

Bro has never seen a Kingsmould

[limpid summit]

The kingsmoulds are genuinely the best tech in the universe

[light kelp]

I mean, the room where the pale king is dead say otherwise

[limpid summit]

(Except Collector)

[fading shard]

The kingsmoulds were affective

[sinful nimbus]

What

[limpid summit]

It didn’t kill him

[fading shard]

the kingsmoulds didn't kill him T_T

[frosty gate]

I saw what you did

[sinful nimbus]

As if PK would ever be felled by such crude constructs

[cedar skiff]

its been 6 years since silksong released and we still think hornet is actually referring to the wingsmould in this entry

[fading shard]

Honestly I'd say hallownests technology is in someways better then pharlooms

[sinful nimbus]

What else would she be referring to

[fading shard]

Like you can disagree

but I do tihnk in someways hallownest was more advanced

[sinful nimbus]

To say vessels were made to merely do the Pale King's bidding is absurd

[light kelp]

Then what happen? Because the room is full of them and have void particles everywhere

[cedar skiff]

the awesome vessels shes continuously salty about throughout silksong

[terse warren]

Lumaflies can counter Void, if TC tells us PK was killed by Void is it PK downscale or Lumafly upscale?

[sinful nimbus]

Moulds are the actual servants

[fading shard]

and in most other aspects they were pretty neck to neck with pharloom in technology

[cedar skiff]

continuously is a stretch but yes

[sinful nimbus]

PK downscale

[cedar skiff]

hornet uses that thing as a diary nothing she says is usually exclusive to the creature its written under

[sinful nimbus]

White Lady says the Pale Family has no means of pacifying the void other than the Everbloom

[vestal swan]

Oh wait, Monomon had acid battery computers and the sanctum had soul infused computers, I don't think pharloom has any

[sinful nimbus]

Which is awesome because it proves the Lighthouse isn't canon like I've been saying for a year but its lame because it proves PK's light can't pacify the void

[fading shard]

They also had electricity

[blissful harbor]

don’t slander her too hard, that’s not what she said

[fading shard]

well were starting to work on electricity

[fading shard]

they didn't offically get anywhere withi t

[raw pewter]

Oh yeah the Volt

[fading shard]

but they were experimenting with it

[terse warren]

If only Hornet had brought a Lumafly lantern with her to Pharloom

[fading shard]

Talking about hallownest here folks

[vestal swan]

No white lady basically forgot that her husband glows, she came back in another cutscene and basically slandered herself some more

[sinful nimbus]

"Witness, the first light. The only means we possess to resist that void with which our family is forever linked"

[fading shard]

yk that is still stupid because the lighthouse in the abyss is still a thing

[silk dirge]

i am forever a believer it wouldve been so much cooler for hornet to get a pale aura from red memory rather than a stupid ass flower

[sinful nimbus]

TRUEWE

[blissful harbor]

i don’t take resist as pacify, the flower can do more than just that
i took that to mean it’s fucking evaporating powers…why doesn’t that happen in SS actually?

[terse warren]

Wait that is what it implies

Can we go back to the pre-silksong days shit was more fun 🥀

[sinful nimbus]

Cook again

[light kelp]

Wait, do we get a explanation to why Ze'mer have so much of those?

[cedar skiff]

pale aura

[fading shard]

and the lore tablet saying the pale kings light can thwart the void

[vestal swan]

Goes back into her memory and binds white lady into something useful

[sinful nimbus]

She brought them from her home kingdom

[terse warren]

Holy shit

[cedar skiff]

this might be worse than shade lord flashing for aura reasons

[fading shard]

it's in the white palace

[blissful harbor]

she’s mysterious

[silk dirge]

i got a fucking magnetism lab coming up i cant sorry

[vestal swan]

Wait this is what happened to PK's corpse, hornet followed us in and bound it

[bronze turret]

Overall, the tech of both kingdoms is situated around the 1890's, both the speakers and the gramophone are just tow different categories of what they used to call a loudspeaker.

[edgy barn]

why did you think the lighthouse wasn't canon before silksong?

[terse warren]

PLEASE GET HIRED BY TEAM CHERRY @silk dirge PLEASE

[raw pewter]

So is Ze'mer's kingdom the most resistant to the Void? Goddamn girl you gotta let more people know where she lives

[terse warren]

Get them to retcon the stupid fucking Everbloom

Give her a pale aura

[sinful nimbus]

That was a joke but it does actually have little reason to exist since PK glowed and stuff

[fading shard]

you mean kingdoms

[bronze turret]

Ah yes, my bad

[terse warren]

Oh my fucking god it's so much better it feels like we missed out

[cedar skiff]

pale aura is legitimately ridiculous

how is it better

[terse warren]

We literally see it in game 1

[silk dirge]

sorry but i gotta do this first

[blissful harbor]

also whatever created the everbloom is where pale beings come from

[raw pewter]

"Pale Aura" and TC just reuse the Dungdefender's Crest stink ass aura and colour it white

[sinful nimbus]

Well its not that much better but it at least ties into her heritage

[terse warren]

PK emanates light from his body

[sinful nimbus]

Red Memory would still kinda suck

[hardy inlet]

hey wait a minute
since when did the hunter crest have more than one silk skill slot
and remaking tools like the architects crest (unless hornet just has infinite red tools which also makes no sense)
how did this happen 🤔 (hollow knight hornet boss fights)

[vestal swan]

Red memory but you bind the three queens instead for one ultimate power

[edgy barn]

maybe he didn't collect the void containers by himself?

[sinful nimbus]

Perhaps

[terse warren]

Compared to suddenly having a spell that can just materialize one of the most powerful things ever into existence? Way better

[fading shard]

hallownest has more inventions and technology for the quality of life in hallownest while the cidatel has more on weaponizing

[light kelp]

Void: STOP WITH THAT
Hornet: Pale aura farming in front of the lake of void

[sinful nimbus]

Stealing something from a memory is tuff

[raw pewter]

Lace and GMS looking up: Yes Horent, we see the fit

[sinful nimbus]

It just needs to be something relevant to Hornet's character

[vestal swan]

TK: goes in for a hug
Hornet: think fast chuckle nuts

[fading shard]

Hallownest has late 1800s technology

[cedar skiff]

i like that the force of nature void can only be countered by another force of nature

[silk dirge]

i mean pk didnt have a problem with it

[cedar skiff]

i think its cooler than hornet fucking glowing like a shonen protagonist to defeat it

[terse warren]

Hornet could just go to a memory, take back motherfucking Grand Mother Silk from there and use her like a Persona

[cedar skiff]

but i guess it boils down to preference

[sinful nimbus]

Ew

[fading shard]

but the pale king was able to do that to the void though T_T

[vestal swan]

Get out of here joker Alt

[sinful nimbus]

Never mention midsona again

[raw pewter]

Hear me out, Hornet kill Lost Lace and bind her power, becoming Shade Silk Hornet

[terse warren]

Sorry like a stand from JoJo

[cedar skiff]

the pale king is IRRELEVANT to silksong

[raw pewter]

Now all the people saying Hornet is void will be correct

[sinful nimbus]

Team Cherry has FORGOTTEN about the Pale King

[vestal swan]

The void is not laces power she can't bind it

Besides hornet slandering his attempts to control void

[raw pewter]

Have a lil whimsy and just believe

[vestal swan]

Never

[bronze turret]

The Wanderer's Journal reveals Pale King was into Civil Engineering, so it's safe to say his focus was urban, whereas Pharloom has a more industrial city approach.

[terse warren]

Surely at the end of Godhome (now Voidhome after EtV) Hornet will fight the Shade Lord and bind it and God why does this feel like something that might actually happen?

[fading shard]

I am fully well aware that the pale king was into inventing stuff

[cedar skiff]

Please dont speak this into existence

[sinful nimbus]

Shade Lord bossfight looks shockingly plausible yeah

[silk dirge]

honestly id be fine with like hornet challenging shade lord to a friendly duel

[terse warren]

If this happens I take accountability sorry chat

[fading shard]

you know that monomon and the pale king had a canonical friendship of sorts

[vestal swan]

Hornet has absolutely no reason to fight her sibling, which is further reinforced by TK saving them

[silk dirge]

shed get absolutely destroyed

[raw pewter]

Maybe we'll get Lost GMS

[blissful harbor]

*shade lord duel

[silk dirge]

but it would be a cool fight

being able to challenge the void to a friendly duel is a fucking insane flex

[terse warren]

Lost Mother Silk

[vestal swan]

Unless the Masters are actually void controllers as well and they somehow override void heart and take over TK this is not going to happen

[sinful nimbus]

I prefer Compressed GMS

[raw pewter]

Shade Silk Mother

[silk dirge]

take "sister of the void" to a whole new fucking level

[silk dirge]

i prefer cnc mill boss in steel city

[cedar skiff]

shade lord fight would make it somehow more ineffective narratively than it already is

can team cherry just forget about godhome

[dusk kraken]

No silk or soul would be gained for the entire fight

[raw pewter]

Let me fight a buffed version of Second Sentinel and my life is yours

[terse warren]

The fact that you're not the first person to suggest this worries me...

[blissful harbor]

you challenge it and immediately die, would be peak

[silk dirge]

imagine fucking like fighting this in steel city

[cedar skiff]

the shade lord is already such a ridiculously stupid concept

[raw pewter]

Rename it to the "Final Sentinel"

[bronze turret]

I do, I was just pointing that Hallownest is more well put together and orderly because Pale King is mostly focused on the urbanization aspect, in contrast to Pharloom that has made its kingdom an industrial city

[cedar skiff]

i really dont like godhome.

[silk dirge]

itd go hard as a boss fight

[raw pewter]

I like it in gameplay sense, but in term of lore.... It could work, but eh

[cedar skiff]

you cant even fight anything in the city of steel because your needle instantly shatters upon one hit

[edgy barn]

Hallownest aimed to be a livable, functional state. Pharloom was all just one big scheme to keep GMS asleep.

[sinful nimbus]

Y'know void silk has made me reconsider

[bronze turret]

Pretty much. It's what I meant when I said Pale King designed Hallownest more like an urban zone. Pharloom is a big machine akin to an industrial city, in both senses

[edgy barn]

isn't hivesteel supposed to be the strongest steel.

[raw pewter]

We know Void can combine with Souls because of the Knight's Shade Soul, etc etc, and since Silk is also made of Soul

[sinful nimbus]

The infection is an essence spell, Shade Bowl seal reveals void can corrupt essence spells like soul spells, therefore the Infection Vines turning black? That's the void corrupting them like it does with the silk. Sorry lore regulars!!!

[blissful harbor]

actually a void crest in dlc would be dope
it like constantly drains your health to one but maybe life steal with certain attacks
and obviously stronger

[raw pewter]

Ehh I find Void Crest to be very slim, TC clearly want to make Hornet's power focus on being Weaver and Pale rather than Void

[limpid summit]

One Hit Obliterator

[raw pewter]

Maybe a Void Tool is more plausible

[light kelp]

My greatest saddness come when i discover that the steel assassins where cut out of the game...why?...WHY?

[cedar skiff]

i rly wish void had just remained this force of nature rather than now being controlled by this ambiguous being that’s portrayed as evil but kinda isnt or whatever

[raw pewter]

So we can wait another 7 years for the Steel DLC

[raw pewter]

Yeah honestly I don't really like the existence of the Shade Lord either, it's much more simpler and cool for the void to be this force of nature and not tied to a God of some sort

And some stupid bugs want to worship it

[cedar skiff]

gods and glory is just aura farm slop

[bronze turret]

Void still is a force of nature, The Knight does not have omniscient control over it, speaking from what we see in the True Ending.

[sinful nimbus]

This is true in Dream No More too

[cedar skiff]

i mean its fun aura farm slop but still

[sinful nimbus]

And its fine it represents The Knight coming to terms with its nature

[cedar skiff]

not to the extent its done in etv

[sinful nimbus]

Proof?

[raw pewter]

I like Dream No More as an ending better than Embrace the Void, just a personal thing

[sinful nimbus]

I agree that ETV is worse but TK has control over all of Hallownest's void in DNM too

[twin dragon]

Doesn't, the void is conscious enough to see the knight as an authority figure

[cedar skiff]

to me its a little different than it manifesting into one gigantic god entity

[sinful nimbus]

They're noted to be the same entity by Bardoon sooo

[sinful nimbus]

This is a character design issue then not a story one

What the Knight actually does in both endings is functionally the same

[cedar skiff]

the way its displayed kinda Does matter

Character design Is important to Storytelling

[fading shard]

Yeah pale king created, proper plumbing, gramaphones and speakers for entertainment, tramways, elevators and a bunch of mechanical 1890s stuff and acid computers and was canonically experimenting with electricity and would have realistically revolutionized electricity in hallownest if he had enough time, free health care healing pools, free entertainment districts, crystal magic batteries and golems powered by that, the void constructs and etc.

the cidatel on the other hand focused on inventing a ton automatons to subjugate others and opress and a few to keep the cidatel running, sickening silk experiments, they also had elevators and spas like the pale king so that's nice, speakers just like the pale king just in a different way (which they used to make confession booths for the underwork workers who would spend rosaries on to tell their worries and sins and they'd just give a pre-recorded message about them needing to work harder)

[fading shard]

oh and let's not forget more automatons

[maiden meteor]

I think difference between void given form and void given focus is level of control over void

[fading shard]

did I miss something guys

[sinful nimbus]

I think the extent of the issues of Shade Lord's character design is that it A) misleads players into thinking its malicious and B) looks cringe

[maiden meteor]

in DNM Siblings are still their own entities

[cedar skiff]

there is sone Nuance to this and i agree with your point to an extent my dislike of how etv and continuously sotv handles things Stems from issues i have with godhome as a whole

[raw pewter]

That's pretty much covers it

[silk dirge]

the thing is also pk did automatons in a much less fucked up way

[cedar skiff]

i genuinely think etv is objectively badly written but the things i think about the void are just personal preferences and hc

[silk dirge]

magic crystals are a lot better than fucking the souls of dead bugs forced to do eternal servitude

[fading shard]

I mean they just made batteries

[twin dragon]

elaborate on the first part

[sinful nimbus]

ETV objectively doesn't really fit into the themes of the first game as it skips the main climax and you don't need to kill the dreamers

[raw pewter]

Unless we're talking about the Void Constructs, do we count those as automatons?

[silk dirge]

the soul siphon is genuinely one of the most fucked up things i think in the entirety of the hk universe

[twin dragon]

you need uh.. the voidheart..

[edgy barn]

why do people assume the siblings get merged into the shade lord what's the evidence for that

[sinful nimbus]

Whether you like it is up to taste though

[cedar skiff]

i could go on a little bit but my biggest issue is how detached it is from the ret of the story

[fading shard]

they don't

[bronze turret]

Well, it's not like you can take the concept of the void and make the character seem cute and friendly. The way a person would perceive their true intents based on their looks is entirely reliant on each person's media literacy.

[fading shard]

also void constructs aren't unethical

[sinful nimbus]

Only because there's an arbitrary lock that's never explained or acknowledged preventing you from entering P5 without it

[fading shard]

I mean I don't think anybodys literacy has to do withi t

[silk dirge]

hk has nothing that comes close to being as fucked up as the soul siphon

[fading shard]

it's just left up in the air in hollow knight

[sinful nimbus]

Well sure but the sinister music blaring in ETV doesn't help at all

[cedar skiff]

None of this would really matter to me as much if godhome was just a dlc and not ambiguously fucking canon, like these things come from it being a dlc and thats like Ok but Man does it stink for the story continuity

[raw pewter]

Yeah they are not, but it is highly dangerous to experiment with, one wrong move and you could create a whole nother problem with void

[maiden meteor]

Soul Sanctum kinda has mass grave in it but it wasn’t really PK’s doing so

[silk dirge]

yeah

[edgy barn]

the abyss with all the dead vessels?

[fading shard]

well it's there to make the void being unified like that to make sense

[silk dirge]

soul sanctum just doesnt have the same vibe as whiteward

[fading shard]

I mean the pale king worked on all of them in his workship

If anybody was to pay by it, it would be him

[maiden meteor]

Ethics of killing void-soul constructs is whole another debate

[raw pewter]

True dat

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but DNM did it in a way that actually worked and made sense, Hornet won't help you Dreamnail THK without Void Heart because she knows you won't be able to face Radiance

[silk dirge]

actually that is kinda fucked up but with the no other choice thing it doesn't feel nearly as crazy as like

all of whiteward

[sinful nimbus]

The P5 lock has literally no lore

[twin dragon]

Shouldn't it be obvious

[bronze turret]

I think it does, for the simple that, in my 32 years of awareness, I've also come across stories in which the dark is not inherently malevolent, nor is the intimidating/monstrous-looking creature inherently evil.

[sinful nimbus]

Shouldn't what be obvious

[twin dragon]

that radiance of all things awaits at the top

[fading shard]

I mean neither have I but context matters

[sinful nimbus]

So...

[fading shard]

and with embrace the void

[maiden meteor]

Citadel is just Torment Nexus

[fading shard]

you can be very much so left with a wong interpretatino

[maiden meteor]

this building has literally zero redeeming qualities

[cedar skiff]

whiteward is worse than the vessels because they seriously had no reason to do that

they were just crazy and greedy

[sinful nimbus]

The Knight can't fight Rad without VH that doesn't mean anything should stop it from trying to do so in P5

[edgy barn]

I think we just have grown desensitized to the abyss because of how long it has been since HK came out.

[sinful nimbus]

In DNM there is an explanation for why it can't attempt that without VH

[raw pewter]

Good ol' unethical experiments to achieve immortality troupe

[edgy barn]

I do agree on that point.

[fading shard]

I mean I never saw it as that bad since I first played it

[fading shard]

it wasn't like I just got used to it

my mindset on the vessel travesty has remained the same

[maiden meteor]

I think Citadel bugs were kinda brainwashed by weavers into doing all of that

[fading shard]

it's a trolley problem

[bronze turret]

I wouldn't know. Actions speak louder, and The Knight never gave me reason to believe they had shenanigans in mind. At best I interpreted their motivations as personal, but doesn't come across as a plot for future evilness to me

[maiden meteor]

since weavers convinced them that they serve great god

[fading shard]

there's no ohter way to look at it

it's just a trolley problem

[silk dirge]

the thing about whiteward is it only gets worse the further you go

[cedar skiff]

i believe it likely that the silk recycling economy came to be after the weavers left and came from a place of desperation

[edgy barn]

I do wonder why THK is just...inmune to the dream nail during the fight. Like maybe put some barrier there that Hornet dispels when she intervines.

[fading shard]

either you do nothing and a uncountable amount of bugs suffer

[cedar skiff]

they had no source of silk anymore

[fading shard]

or you make a personal sacrifice that is one of the most heinous actions we know of

[cedar skiff]

they had to resort to harvesting corpses for it

and crafting this economy

[fading shard]

she craks his head

well no

[sinful nimbus]

I assume its because you aren't striking its head, kinda like how you have to hit the head of the Shade Bowl dude to get the Dreamnail dialogue and the other enemies where this doesn't apply could plausibly be gameplay

[blissful harbor]

its shell is resistant
and she pries the shell open

[fading shard]

Actually that does'nt work

[maiden meteor]

Problem is that Citadel serves virtually no good purpose but to cage a god, though bugs didn’t know that for most part

[raw pewter]

Actually now that you mention it, isn't there literally a silk dispenser we can pay Rosaries to get?

[sinful nimbus]

There's also the possibility that its parrying or whatever since there's a metal clink sound

[silk dirge]

you enter there and its like "ok this is a creepy hospital" then you keep going and its like "oh fuck thats the furnace area from the first trailer they are NOT using those to forge bells" and then unraveled is just fucked in every way and when you think it can't get worse you get silk soar and find the silk siphon

[blissful harbor]

parrying the dream nail lmao

[silk dirge]

possibly the most evil thing in all of the hk universe

[sinful nimbus]

My goat

[edgy barn]

for real?

[frosty gate]

One thing I don't get about the Silken Lie, did First Sinner find out and confront GMS about it, which made the other Weavers see GMS' true colors? Or did First Sinner not say anything and plan with the others in secret?

[twin dragon]

Godseeker thought similar though im not sure we have anything that confirms it

[bronze turret]

Ah, just for contextualization, the furnace area of the Whiteward is a Crematorium

[frosty gate]

I think it's the first, if so it'd make more sense

[blissful harbor]

but that tink sound is what makes the think its shell is just resistant

[fading shard]

considering she got caged for it

[cedar skiff]

yeah and the most interesting part to me is so many of these are straight up broken i think it shows their desperation well

[fading shard]

I'd say first sinner confronting grand mother silk in front of the other weavers would be the most likely

[maiden meteor]

I think FS tried to tell other weavers but was caged by them instead but her words still acted as catalyst for their betrayal

[blissful harbor]

form of dream magic, since yk moths can go into dreams
and id suspect they would be number 1 on people tryna break in on PKs list

[past cypress]

It's vague I think. Either the Weavers sealed her not wanting to accept they're not divine or GMS sealed her to avoid the Weavers finding out they're not divine

[twin dragon]

First sinner was imprisoned within the slab, which was created along the citadel

[past cypress]

Her prison could've been made long before the citadel tho

[fading shard]

its surroundings are a lot different then the rest of the slab and cidatel

[silk dirge]

yeah thats what im saying

[fading shard]

look a lot more stonr

[frosty gate]

Is there anything that says FS was sealed by fellow weavers?

[silk dirge]

people thought before silksong released that was a bell forging area

finding out it was a crematorium was like oh fuck

[past cypress]

Nope, there's nothing that says GMS sealed her tho. "Silken lie'" could refer to either GMS or the weavers once they usurped her

[maiden meteor]

We don’t really have any info on who could’ve done that so it’s all theorizing

[frosty gate]

You even have to go through a secret passage to get to her

[twin dragon]

GMS def told them they were of divine make

[maiden meteor]

personally I don’t think citadel bugs would manage to imprison such a fierce weaver by themselves

[past cypress]

We know that, but we don't know when exactly the Weavers found that out

[cedar skiff]

the bells are still crazy to me

[past cypress]

Or rather, when the First Sinner did

I think the evidence points to GMS doing it but it's not confirmed

[cedar skiff]

they made so many fucking bells that several species evolved to live around them

like theres SO many bells

[blissful harbor]

overproduction is a mf

[maiden meteor]

they probably were forging bells for generations upon generations

[vestal swan]

This makes me think, were the chorus robots Kaiju busters? How many of those giant corpses were dead before they were built

[frosty gate]

The Silken Lie was GMS'

[raw pewter]

Think of how annoying it would be to have a home in Bellhart, how did any bugs get any sleep with all those bells around them?

[maiden meteor]

we’re speaking like hundreds of years of forging

[twin dragon]

Weavers had a huge ego though

[silk dirge]

i wish all bellhart residents a very pleasant D I N G

[maiden meteor]

I still don’t get tf Weavers’ problem was

[twin dragon]

ever wondered why there are "weavers of time" and stuff

[sterile jacinth]

I can see fellow weavers imprisoning first sinner my badfor like blasphemy

[twin dragon]

As if they were mythological heroes or sm

[sterile jacinth]

Only to realize she was right

[twin dragon]

They were basically created to serve gms

[raw pewter]

Oh hey Skarr, back to yap some more?

[sterile jacinth]

Hello yes my class ended lol

[maiden meteor]

Yeah but it seems reasonable request for making them literally demigods

[silk dirge]

except they werent demigods

[raw pewter]

They would be an absolute assholes to not free First Sinner after they rebel against GMS

[frosty gate]

I don't think that was the case honestly

[silk dirge]

and they didnt get a choice either

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think GMS forced them to play music 24/7

[bronze turret]

GMS made them believe they were created because she loved them and that they were special to her, only to find out they were only a means to an end and that choosing a different path was not an option. That's why Herrah gave it to Hornet.

[edgy barn]

It's not like the weavers made a deal with GMS though. From their perspective, they were just created into servitude.

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah it’s a reach idk how fs was imprisoned

[maiden meteor]

maybe she died by then

[fading shard]

no butterfly

[sterile jacinth]

Gms is also not a great mother

[fading shard]

First sinner gives actual context

[frosty gate]

Isn't FS inside a Burial Spire inside a Cage? I wonder why the double imprisonmente

[fading shard]

grand mother silk told them they were divine and grand mother silks daughters and then they found out about their true origin and that she lied

and they got pissed off because of that reason

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t know

[fading shard]

though the other thing is also true

[bronze turret]

I know, I know, "she called us daughters... she called us divine... she lied", I don't interpret that at face value. There's a big theme of motherhood and mother/daughter dynamic in the story, it's not about the power itself

[raw pewter]

As seen with how she treats Phantom

[twin dragon]

Binding shit also seems to come from gms btw

[rustic cedar]

wrong chat

[sterile jacinth]

It could very well be a combination of the two

[sterile jacinth]

And lace

[edgy nebula]

#physics-lore

[twin dragon]

gms was hella power hungry though

[fading shard]

It's meant to be taken in face value butterfly

[edgy nebula]

shit that made my text big

[fading shard]

the weavers are NOT divine or higher beings

[maiden meteor]

ik I sound like GMS apologist but do we have evidence she actually didn’t care about weavers and it wasn’t just their way of interpreting things. I guess she is a bad mom though so yeagh

[silk dirge]

someone should make an analysis of silksong physics tbh

[fading shard]

they have divine ORIGIN

but they themselves are not divine

[silk dirge]

im loving all the silksong analysis videos from like every angle

[fading shard]

and that is made pretty clear by eva and other characters aswell

who call hornet half bug half higher being

[silk dirge]

it would be great to have like a theologist or smth analyze the citadel

[lone folio]

Wait who imprisoned first sinner?

[bronze turret]

What I mean to say is it's not the lie about their power that upset them, it's the fact that they were being used, that GMS did not truly care about them. The "she called us daughters" bit is not there just because

[sterile jacinth]

I think she cares for them in the same way she cares about lace. It’s possessive and refuses to consider their feelings

[frosty gate]

Is there anywhere where I can read the texts you find on the map? Not the collectibles, just the ones around

[sinful nimbus]

The Citadel

[maiden meteor]

so basically she demanded weavers to love her cause “I birthed you” argument

[fading shard]

I don't disagree but you have to admit that it was a part of what upset them

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. You’re my could. Act like it or I will punish you

[fading shard]

I never meant to say you were wrong about them feeling used

[lone folio]

Yeah but the citadel was basically ruled by Weavers

[raw pewter]

The same way how some mothers see their children only for their achievements and not because they love them

[cedar skiff]

i liked the geology video

[fading shard]

but them being angry about not being divine and higher beings is sstill true

[frosty gate]

We are not sure that's how it happened

[sinful nimbus]

Who's rule hinged on the fact that they were divine... A weaver saying they weren't that would be bad news

[sterile jacinth]

Exactly. That’s why the silk born are so fucked

[fading shard]

either the cidatel or gms herself

[rustic cedar]

i think... that phantom is one of the "faceless" who talks about mask maker in hollow knight (i know shes from silk but what if there are some other bugs that are faceless like her?)

[frosty gate]

I mean it was probably GMS subjects, but not The Citadel

[sinful nimbus]

The First Sinner is in a Citadel prison therefore she was sealed by the Citadel

[twin dragon]

Lace and gms don't have a mask

[edgy barn]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Lore_Tablets_(Silksong)

[raw pewter]

They need to invent Therapy in the world of Hollow Knight

[bronze turret]

I see what you mean

[sterile jacinth]

I bet phantoms mask is to hide their disfigurement

[twin dragon]

Mind you weavers had control over the citadel for a big while

[fading shard]

Do you agree or disagree with me

[past cypress]

The Weavers built the citadel

[raw pewter]

That, and also masks are tied to identity and self

[lone folio]

Yeah but when? Like after the Weavers all passed or fled or before?

[twin dragon]

AND had control over it

[frosty gate]

How could she be imprisoned by the Citadel if the Citadel was made after the Weavers found about the lie?
I agree it was GMS' subjects, but not THE Citadel

[sinful nimbus]

When the weavers reigned

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. Phantom is falling apart. Rip

[rustic cedar]

im talking only about phantom not silk beings (like so silk being is an exuse to be faceless)

[fading shard]

The mask maker has made it a lot more complex

[twin dragon]

phantom IS a silk being

[maiden meteor]

Maybe Slab was built specifically around FS’ prison

[raw pewter]

I swear to god if TC don't make a buffed up version of Phantom in their Godhome like DLC

[twin dragon]

Her face was probably deformed from decaying

[sinful nimbus]

idk why you are making the assumption that they found out about the lie before the Citadel was established but also all their religious propaganda hinged on the fact that they were divine so it doesn't really matter whether they believed it or not

[sterile jacinth]

FR

[sterile jacinth]

My thought

[frosty gate]

Which seems to be the case considering its literally hidden

[edgy nebula]

no, silken beings just have those horns, lace has them too under her croissant

[twin dragon]

what.

What horns

what r u talking about

[maiden meteor]

Phantom weavers mask to aurafarm

[edgy nebula]

the wispy things at the top of phantom's head

[sterile jacinth]

I thought that was frayed silk

[raw pewter]

Honestly I bloody love the Mask Maker's lore

[sinful nimbus]

The horns don't really look like silk to me

[maiden meteor]

mf uses one hand cause they hold mask whole fight

[sterile jacinth]

Could be like a “skeleton”

[edgy barn]

The weavers finding out about the lie is a compelling reason for them to rebel. The alternative is ??? (This doesn't necessarily mean the first interpretation is correct mind you)

[twin dragon]

Im talking abt the face

[lone folio]

Or laces are just not torn upp

[twin dragon]

And even then that's prob deformation side effects

[fading shard]

masks and faces are now said to be....interchangable

[sinful nimbus]

Well its not like GMS's rule was all that great to be under

[fading shard]

a mask is a biological part of your body now

[edgy barn]

She holds the pin with both hand when attacking.

[maiden meteor]

They also betrayed her cause she wanted them to worship her eternally

[fading shard]

it is something you can put on

[twin dragon]

First sinner most likely challenged the other weavers

[bronze turret]

In part. When it comes to the reasons the Weavers turned on GMS, I don't think power was their primary reason for it, if only so because the narrative has time and again demonstrated to focus on the parent/child dynamic, even back in HK, albeit this time it was brought closer to the foreground.

[fading shard]

but it is also somthing you are inherently born with

[frosty gate]

The Citadel was made in order to Cage GMS and was Controlled by Weavers.
So you either agree that GMS had a Citadel before the Weavers made it or you agree it wasn't the Citadel who imprisoned her

[raw pewter]

Yup, before Silksong I am so confuse about Mask Lore, I don't know whether it is actually a biological part, but now it is confirmed to be

[twin dragon]

They were seeking freedom, but were power hungry at the same time

[maiden meteor]

“For her light eternal our song sustains”

[raw pewter]

Also some bugs are born without masks, thus why the Mask Makers exist

[sinful nimbus]

The weavers, in control of the Citadel, imprisoned First Sinner. Why is this at all nonsensical

[twin dragon]

the slab was made with the citadel

[maiden meteor]

also “To escape servitude eternal”

[sterile jacinth]

My theory is that the citadel was a ruse. Gms thought it was to worship her but in reality it was a trap set by the weavers

[raw pewter]

Masks are tied to their identity and self, taking their mask off they would lose themselves, as seen with Brumm and Widow

[past cypress]

the slab but First Sinner's prison could be older

[frosty gate]

I want you to explain to me with decent proof why they would imprison FS, because that's what's nonsensical

[maiden meteor]

My crack theory is that weavers lulled GMS to sleep with same song they used to “sustain” her

[fading shard]

Well while grandmothersilk was a bad parent having your entire be a lie

[sinful nimbus]

Their religious propaganda hinged on the fact that they were divine as you can see in Weaver Effigies

First Sinner claimed they weren't divine. Put two and two together

[fading shard]

and finding out you're not a biological child of your supposed mother would leave you upset

[maiden meteor]

AND this mother demanded your love

[twin dragon]

Her literal inprisonment log exists

[fading shard]

and your divine and god nature being a lie

[fading shard]

do you understand how bad it must have felt when they found out they aren't higher beings

that they aren't divine that they can't put themselves on that pedastal

and they are but bugs

[sterile jacinth]

Both that and disliking her rule can be true at the same time

[maiden meteor]

So did weavers just had glorified golden child burnout

[fading shard]

powerful ones with a divine origin

[raw pewter]

Powerful bugs, but still mortal

[fading shard]

I said that

[fading shard]

but still bugs

[twin dragon]

Did y'all forget GMS forced the weavers to "serve" her, with their "song"

[raw pewter]

I know, just agreeing with you

[sterile jacinth]

I think they’re reinforcing your idea

[fading shard]

no I did not

[cedar skiff]

what if gms imprisoned first sinner?

[sterile jacinth]

I think they both felt hurt that they were lied to and were angry that she was forcing them into servitude

[fading shard]

the weavers are a very egotistical bunch

even more egotistical then most higher beings I'd say

[sterile jacinth]

If she started the rebellion why wouldn’t the other weavers free her?

[fading shard]

And they quite clearly loved being better then other bugs because they were higher beings

sooo finding out

[vestal swan]

Weavers aren't HB?

[fading shard]

that they WEREN"T is a massive piss off

[raw pewter]

Mhm, in another word the Weavers have a bit of a God Complex

[sterile jacinth]

They’re very prideful. It must sting

[vestal swan]

Oh

[sterile jacinth]

They were probably told they were

[edgy barn]

I think is also very possible that GMS used the "fact" they were her daughters as the justification for why they should worship and serve her forever.

[fading shard]

scroll up

[cedar skiff]

gms really didnt do shit man im crying

[twin dragon]

But WHAT exactly were the weavers doing by "serving" her

[sterile jacinth]

I think that makes a lot of sense. Gms wants control

[fading shard]

I was explaining why the weavers would have been so pissed when they found out they were not the kids of gms and not divine

[maiden meteor]

singing probably

[fading shard]

I was just explaining their perspective

[raw pewter]

I think Weapon is trolling, but I can't prove it.....
[Insert James Doak looking at you suspiciously]

[cedar skiff]

everyone just made up shit to be mad at

[sterile jacinth]

Building the citadel (I think), warring against other bugs, establishing worship of gms

[maiden meteor]

We see rows of weavers playing needoline with “for her light eternal our song sustains”

[twin dragon]

Something related to their "song"

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. I think they did a lot

They were gms personal army

[sterile jacinth]

I think. I think they just did a lot for her

[maiden meteor]

Tbh Rad looks pretty chill compared to GMS

Moths just chilled

until those fucks betrayed her

[sterile jacinth]

Rad had a tantrum. Gms enslaved like everyone in Pharloom

[raw pewter]

We can pretty much blame the Moths for making the Radiance mad

They literally forget their own God

[sterile jacinth]

I think sentience sounds like a neat deal

[fading shard]

wIs gms silk better?

She literally started a tantrum and infected every single creature imaginable

[bronze turret]

Giving her worship. Higher Beings seek worship and devotion, and I may be going out on a limb here, but I felt hints of it being what sustains their existence, but that's just me

[maiden meteor]

can’t even blame PK cause he seems chill with neighboring HBs

[fading shard]

I mean not just hbs just all tribes nyx

the mantis tribe had a deal with the pale king to be chill

[raw pewter]

What makes you think the Moths doesn't have sentient when they worship the Radiance? I feel like worshipping something require you to be sentient

[fading shard]

the hive wanted to be left alone and were left alone

the mushrooms were just chill with the pale king

[sterile jacinth]

It could have been more mindless before. I assumed they just took pk deal

[fading shard]

the moths went out of their way to join the pale king out of their own volition unrelated to himself

[twin dragon]

Maybe, gods in hk grow stronger with worship

[fading shard]

and the mosskin had beef with his wife

[sterile jacinth]

Fine… I’ll do it myself
-gms

[frosty gate]

Oh Star if your passive-aggresiveness wasn't so annoying I would almost want to agree with you.

We don't actually know that they put GMS to sleep before they learned the truth, if they did learn the truth from FS, there's no reason to imprison her and it would make sense it was GMS
If they put GMS to sleep before learning the truth and then ruled the Citadel, it makes no sense why the put her to sleep.

[raw pewter]

They literally sees Pale King's light as brighter, and worship him instead

[maiden meteor]

Friendship ended with Radiance, now Pale King is my God

[ancient sinew]

I agree, Star is extremely passive-aggressive and it makes taking her seriously very difficult

[sterile jacinth]

That makes sense

[maiden meteor]

I wonder what’s baseline power level for HBs

[frosty gate]

Which is why most people brush them off like "Ragebait"
My fault in engaging on the first place

[maiden meteor]

Rad and GMS seem to get stronger the more bugs they enslave

[sterile jacinth]

I just blocked them. It honestly made my life easier

[maiden meteor]

but PK seems to be powerful by default

[frosty gate]

That seems to be the regular for HBs

[bronze turret]

From what I understood, the tribe were the only bugs who were allowed sentience to worship her because they were created by her, whereas any other bug outside the tribe was put under a hivemind where hers' was the predominant conscience, but when PK came around, the moth tribe abandoned her because they like his ways better. GMS is basically Radiance's narrative parallel, if not a further expansion of the idea that this is some Higher Beings' standard approach.

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder if his status as a wyrm has something to do with it

[ancient sinew]

Yeah tbh I’ve just stopped talking to her, it’s just not worth feeding the trolls

[sterile jacinth]

Rad seems like more primal of a god to me for this reason. More animalistic and reactive

[raw pewter]

Oh so it wasn't just me who felt that way, oh well I only focus on the lore anyway

[maiden meteor]

tbh I don’t really think Rad done anything to outside bugs

[fading shard]

1. radiance
2. pale king
3. grand mother silk??
4. prime unn
5. nightmare heart
6. white lady because we don't know crap about her powers

And no I am not including the pale kids kids or the shade lord

[fading shard]

Because that would be a whole different pack of wyrms nyx

get it wyrms-

[maiden meteor]

we know Mantises predate PK’s rule so they must’ve coexisted with Rad

[ancient sinew]

I’m not sure about that, in Rad’s case beyond needing to be remembered to avoid “the only death that matters” the quality and quantity of those who remember her isn’t really indicated to matter all that much. In GMS’ case she’s still asleep during the events of the game and this clearly leaves her a weakened state (which is to say she was much stronger prior to the Haunting)

[raw pewter]

Ha I got it, can of "wyrms", very funny Abhiker

[bronze turret]

Ironically enough, that's the fascinating thing about Higher Beings. It's like their elevated state does a 360º and they're brought back to the most primitive desires; dominance, control, procreation...

[fading shard]

thank you :D

[bronze turret]

Bloodborne flashbacks

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. She managed to fend off and scare away an entire race of very powerful bugs

[frosty gate]

I still think the reason the Shadelord came to be is because Godseekers worshipped it unintentionally when TK won against AbsRad

[ancient sinew]

In the case of PK and WL nothing indicates they’re dependent on worship

[sterile jacinth]

Heheheh the lore is loring 🔥

[raw pewter]

"O Grant us eyes.... Grant us eyes...."

[twin dragon]

GMS seems to be rlly powerful with how she controls almost the entirety of pharloom subcounsciously

[maiden meteor]

Shade Lord is literally “void given focus” so yeah

[twin dragon]

Godseeker had this thing called the god tunner p sure

[ancient sinew]

The same is true of NMH and LoS ofc, the only HB where it may play a significant role is Unn funnily enough

[fading shard]

It's not exactly subconcious

[sterile jacinth]

She also created lace and phantom

[frosty gate]

More like unconscious

[twin dragon]

she's basically asleep

[ancient sinew]

GMS is probably the weakest HB we’ve been introduced to ngl

Her feats are way less impressive than what the other HBs do

[fading shard]

The weakest she is not

[teal drift]

I think lace and phantom are like her dreams brought to life. Thats why they aint hear shit from her.

[maiden meteor]

I think Unn is weaker by the time we meet her

[ancient sinew]

And she gets her ass handed to her by a non HB

[twin dragon]

I'd still say it's subconscious as it basically represents her needs

[fading shard]

Listen she's not the strongest

[sterile jacinth]

I think this makes sense. I also think she had a way to communicate with them tho

[maiden meteor]

but birthing entire forest from dream is sure a feat to recon with

[fading shard]

but she's not weaker then prime unn or white lady

[ancient sinew]

Perhaps, but we know Unn was much stronger in the past and her feats are more impressive than GMS

[twin dragon]

how the fuck

[fading shard]

she has a lot more going for her

[blissful harbor]

hornet isn’t fair
i wouldn’t wanna fight her

[raw pewter]

She is when we fought her, but she's able to fight the Skarr and the rest of the kingdoms before the Citadel in her prime

[twin dragon]

She's probably the strongest

[frosty gate]

Subconscious would be that she didn't mean to do it.
Unconscious is that she did it knowingly, but while asleep, if my english englishes right

[teal drift]

I mean GMS is chained and half asleep when we fight her

[ancient sinew]

both of them are practically featless but I would argue prime Unn has more impressive feats than GMS

[teal drift]

PK dies because his chair was too hard thats weaker

[ancient sinew]

WL seems to be held in a higher regard

[fading shard]

Gms screwed over all the civilizations when she arrived in pharloom

[ancient sinew]

PK killed himself or died of grief

[maiden meteor]

I mean GMS managed to fend off against Void for a while which is pretty big

[fading shard]

the pale king died of void or grief man

[teal drift]

Gms’ mindless body was used to create a civilization larger and more technologically advanced than halloenest

[frosty gate]

Pops was tired

[sterile jacinth]

She also created a race of godlike beings and then scared them all away when they rebelled

[edgy barn]

Unn is ridiculously weak by the time we meet her. The Godseekers can't attune to her and they attune to Gruz Mother

[twin dragon]

Still don't think so, imo it seems more of her wants spilling out in form of the haunting and silkborns

[maiden meteor]

after getting her ass whopped by Hornet and Lace

[teal drift]

Peepaw King died from an infected bedsore

Hornet spawncamps gms keep in mind