sk-lore

[charred nimbus]

Did the verdanians and the sentries ever fight?

[fading shard]

no

[charred nimbus]

So alright, since we really don't know the answer, my little weakened mind can still think they could win, but you're points are also valid tho

[fading shard]

pharloom and hallownest never went to war

[charred nimbus]

I agree with you on most things

The sentries also use armor

Wich is a big advantage

[orchid pine]

Oh are we discussing who would win between Pharloom and HallownestV

[charred nimbus]

Something like that, to be specifc it is verdanians x hallownest army (sentries)

[orchid pine]

Hmmm. I think it’d go to the sentries just because they have much heavier armor, and many of the verdanian weapons are light

[fading shard]

I mean the sentries were the regular knights and such of hallownest

[fading shard]

might I remind you that hallownest went to several battles and wars and WON

and we fight a husk version of the sentries

While hornet faces off the verdanians when they were at their peak

And the hunter in the hunters journals entries has some that refer to a few of the versions as actual "THREATS"

which by the hunters standard who rarely goes as far as to to that you gotta understand how much of a compliment that is

also the great sentries do 2 masks of damage to the knight and so do the simple husk guards

While the verdanians to HORNET can mostly do 1 mask of damage

[orchid pine]

Honestly true. If Verdania had some more tanky troop then they might have a chance, but Hallownest’s army is just so versatile. Flying troops, infantry, etc

[charred nimbus]

Also, on the argument between kindanir x big sentries, I agree that the sentries would win, BUT THE KINDANIR ARE NOT SLOW, the kindanir would not be effective on damaging the big sentries because of their armor, also the big sentries have discipline and training which would be much easier to just hit kill the little kids

[orchid pine]

A better question would be who would win between Army of Hallownest and Royal Army of Crust King Kahn

[fading shard]

hallownest is far larger

and fought against a "blackwyrm" or something that made the battle deserve such a title

[charred nimbus]

This subject is a bit different, because Coral army has as much discipline and training as the army of hallownest, and their troops is way more versatile and diverse too

[orchid pine]

Well true, but it’s quite obvious we didn’t go against Kahn’s full arsenal. I’m sure once the DLC releases we’re going to get more coral troops. I’d also like to ask, would would Hallownests army do against things like the Conchshell flies and even Voltvyrm?

[charred nimbus]

Also need to point out that coral army is a military dictatorship

[vestal swan]

What is this nonsense power scaling that's going on

[fading shard]

With respect powerscaling is fine

If all parties involve are having fun what's the issue

[vestal swan]

Not for this channel no, especially since most of the stuff y'all are rambling about is completely wrong

[charred nimbus]

Soery boss, it all started only because I was glazing over the Verdanians speed, then we imagined who's the boss

[fading shard]

I'm sorry

when did the great husk sentries not do two masks of damage

[vestal swan]

You mean the fat ones or the city guards I can't remember

[fading shard]

"An extremely rare thing, a bug of Hallownest that actually poses a threat. Watch them carefully, as they can lash out quickly with devastating strikes."

[fading shard]

Literally calls the great sentries a threat

and mind you the hunter most of the time just considers most enemies to be a joke

with the regular sentries he doesn't insult them

but instead actually talks about their skill

[charred nimbus]

Except when he's flabbergasted by the explosion bats behavior

[vestal swan]

Well for one it's huge, and there's multiple of them, and they do hit pretty hard

[fading shard]

also again I'm not wrong that we're facing husk versions of the sentries am I?

They are literally called husks

[vestal swan]

Yeah most of them are zombies?

Pretty much the entire city population is long dead and or infected

[fading shard]

and how am I wrong about Hornet facing off against prime verdanians

we literally face off against a memory of them that the green prince remembers

[vestal swan]

Because some of those are babies and his memory is sketchy

I wouldn't call that prime anything

[fading shard]

It's a memory of prime verdania

When it was flourishing

And before its ruin

and I say "prime"

[frosty gate]

What's the topic?

[fading shard]

I'm debunking weapons statements of me being wrong

[frosty gate]

About what?

[fading shard]

though earlier it was just some vs conversations

Hallownests army vs verdanians

[vestal swan]

It was a bunch of nonsense power scaling and assuming the state of things

[fading shard]

I'm sorry tell me what I was wrong about?

[vestal swan]

No

I'm going to eat breakfast

[fading shard]

I said that hallownests army had went and faced great battles

and we know for a fact that they did

[terse warren]

what's your source

[fading shard]

ogrim

Ogrim

I'm gonna say again OGRIM

the battle of the blackwyrm "hallownest great line of heroes and knights"

[vivid kernel]

I think its more implied than explicitly stated other than battle of blackwyrm

[fading shard]

Ogrim reminising of the great knights sense of humor during hard times

[terse warren]

!wiki Ogrim

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Dung_Defender

Hollow Knight Wiki

Dung Defender

The Dung Defender is one of the main bosses in Hollow Knight. This champion of the past defends the access to Isma's Grove. The Hidden Dreams content White Defender is his dream variant.

Theme

Dung Defender
──────────
Godmaster content Gods And Glory (Part A)

Health

700 / 750 / 800 / 850 / 900
(Nail upgrades 0/1/2/3/4)

Reward

Defender's Crest
Access to Isma's Grove

Journal Kills

1

Gender

Male

Voice

William Pellen

[vivid kernel]

Like why would they have 5 great knights doesnt make sende if they didnt have some sort of conflicts

[fading shard]

oh what o you know

the wiki states as much good @terse warren

and I wasn't even using the wiki

guess I was RIGHT

[terse warren]

the wiki isn't a source

[terse warren]

anyways this is never stated

hell, there isn't even any mention of an army

the only battle ever mentioned is Blackwyrm

[fading shard]

"My cave may seem a far cry from the finery of the palace but even still the memories of my former comrades, and our glorious King, remain fresh in my mind.

The Pale Court was a wondrous place full of the age's greatest heroes. Ahh! Looking at you now, I can easily imagine you standing amongst them. "

[steep talon]

smh not even the battle of blackvyrm

[terse warren]

yeah the 5 knights

certainly not an army

[fading shard]

Dude

[terse warren]

dude what

[fading shard]

They were called the five great knights

as in the best of the best

[terse warren]

that is not how titles work

[fading shard]

Also no army?

Wdym hallownest didn't have an army

[terse warren]

The Pale King was called the Pale King, indicating there was a Dim King too

[fading shard]

I said that they were called the five great knights T_T

[terse warren]

yeah

[fading shard]

How does that correlate to what I said

[terse warren]

it does not imply that there were other knights that were less great

"The Great Navy of the State of Nebraska" does not imply that Nebraska also has a smaller, non-great navy

[fading shard]

god I'm gonna have to mention the watcher knights

because they have knight in the name

T_T what is this conversation even about

[terse warren]

where is it ever stated the watcher knights were part of the "hallownest army"?

!wiki Watcher Knights

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Watcher_Knight

Hollow Knight Wiki

Watcher Knight

The Watcher Knights are a single main boss in Hollow Knight. They guard Lurien the Watcher, one of the three Dreamers. Their Journal entry is unlocked at the end of the fight, regardless of how many were fought.

Theme

False Knight
──────────
Godmaster content Furious Gods

Health

6 x 220 / 220 / 220 / 240 / 260
Total: 1320 / 1320 / 1320 / 1440 / 1560
(Nail 0/1/2/3/4)

Reward

655
Hallownest Seal
Access to Lurien the Watcher

Journal Kills

1 (Per the whole fight)

[fading shard]

I never said they were

[terse warren]

then they aren't relevant, are they?

[fading shard]

they are still part o hallownest are the not

[terse warren]

you cannot be serious right now

[charred nimbus]

Why does it always sound like this server debates are so salty? is it just because i'm autistic?...

[terse warren]

because everyone always thinks they're right

[fading shard]

idk man I'm fine with this debate

[frosty gate]

It had guards for the City and Knights for the Palace, not counting the Pale Court, but we don't really have a any confirmation of an "Army" perse, not that i remember at least

[fading shard]

Listen I'm not right on many things but saying hallownest doesn't have an army is insane

[terse warren]

the five great knights and the watcher knights have no relation, the existence of the watcher knights does not prove in any way that the great five knights were "the best of the best" of the knights of the Pale King

[fading shard]

Not what I was saying T_T

[terse warren]

it really isn't considering there's no evidence for it

[fading shard]

You're trying to tell me that you think that all of hallownest just has 5 rando knights to defend it

that's what you believe

[frosty gate]

They are everything but randos

[terse warren]

and kingsmoulds

defend it from what tho??

[fading shard]

I am aware of how strong the five great kinghts are

[terse warren]

we hear of ONE battle

[steep talon]

just in case I guess. But dont think hallownest had an army. PK wouldnt want to invade shit

[fading shard]

To give headway that it had some type of combat going on

[terse warren]

no?

that dialogue is to make us empathize with ogrim not to make us think there were wars going on lol

[fading shard]

Idk man the idea that hallownest is this defenceless little place is driving me mad

[edgy barn]

would the sentries be considered a police force or a military?

[fading shard]

like it having no wars is fine

[fading shard]

Military?

[steep talon]

who would attack hallownest? World of HK is insanely desolate

[fading shard]

That's not the point T_T

[frosty gate]

Hallownest itself seems pretty well defended

Like dude, it's literally trenchfighting in enemy ground

[charred nimbus]

i mean, considering the way they act and where we see then in the game, i woul say they look alot more like a police force...

[steep talon]

yeah, popo. They seem too spread out to be military and higher class bugs have better popos

[frosty gate]

Who the FUCK would enter Hallownest

[edgy barn]

what exactly are you asking?

[fading shard]

I said military with uncertainty

not asking a question

[edgy barn]

oh, alright

[fading shard]

Listen man the concept that every single faction in the region has an army of some sort other then the moth tribe and HALLOWNESt is driving me nuts

What kind of implication is this

[charred nimbus]

@fading shard Just to mention something that i didn't when we were having our discussion because i left my home, and to take opportunity while Weapon is eating breakfast

[fading shard]

also the mushrooms

the mushrooms also have no army

[frosty gate]

Greenpath doesn't either

[charred nimbus]

@fading shard The Verdanians don't do two masks of damage mainly because not considering the fact most of then are childrens like they said, Verdanians also aplly a more light way of combat, with more older versions apllying multi hit combos instead of a powerful two mask one hit damage

[fading shard]

they have moss knights

that are called knights

Not guards

[frosty gate]

The same way PK has the Pale Court who are knights

[fading shard]

Bloody shoelace said only the five great knights are knights

and that there are no other defenders for hallownest

hell even the kingsmoulds are called guards so I can't call them knights

or shoelace is just gonna say I'm wrong

[edgy barn]

I seriously do not understand what the matter is are you not counting defensive forces as valid?

[fading shard]

I'm responding to what shoelace said

[edgy barn]

because nobody in hallownest has an offensive army, nobody was out to invade anyone

[charred nimbus]

Exterior relations seen to work a bit different in Hollow knight world, but it's odd because we know the Citadel of Pharloom has an army (the choir), but they also just straight up send the Choir on foreing kingdoms to capture weavers and apparently the weavers just fight to defend thenselves and the specifc kingdoms don't seen to care much

[fading shard]

Who is just here saying oh yeah they have the five great knights that's it

[frosty gate]

The choir isn't even an army perse, it was used to capture weavers but thats it

[edgy barn]

wasn't xero a knight too?

[frosty gate]

He wasn't a defender really, he hated the King

[fading shard]

I would say yes but shoelace is just gonna say no

[edgy barn]

I mean the choristors and reeds are clearly combat oriented.

[heavy gyro]

Hallownest clearly had some kind of defensive military considering galien wanted to become a knight

[fading shard]

they didn't hate the pale king originally

[edgy barn]

wasn't that because he got infected?

[fading shard]

he mentions his dreams

[frosty gate]

Can't honestly remember

[fading shard]

he did

Mentions about cutting down the infection in his dreams

an then one day he decided to assasinate the pale king

[frosty gate]

Yeah, but we don't really have a clue as to why
The fights were done by the time they were created it seems

[edgy barn]

eh, it is never a bad idea to have people who can fight.

[charred nimbus]

wasn't the citadel conquering other people's land tho (i know they problaby didn't use military force, but i have no idea)

[fading shard]

that was grandm othe rsilk

[limpid summit]

Grandmother silk was the one fighting against the tribes

[fading shard]

by the time we had the conductors all those previous civz were brought to ruin

[edgy barn]

I do think the citadel proper likely had to use force in cases like greymoor.

[limpid summit]

But the conductor-run citadel did do stuff like siphon the water from Karak while Khann was sleeping

Cause GMS wouldn’t do that and neither would the Weavers

(Since the old Weaver citadel was simple and made of stone)

[edgy barn]

why would khann be sleeping if the water hadn't been dried up

[charred nimbus]

Wait, so the Green prince lover made the deal with GMS instead of the weavers or the conductors? did they have the automatons by that time?

I always get so confused by the citadel timeline...

[limpid summit]

I dunno to escape defeat

What would GMS need water for

[edgy barn]

This is one of the cases where it was the citadel but gms still gets the blame too because "she was the true monarch all along"

[limpid summit]

^

Yup

It was the conductors that made Cogwork core and the dancers

[edgy barn]

She doesn't have to need it for herself, she just needs to want Karak to not have it.

[limpid summit]

But the steam power is still going

And the water is nowhere to be seen

I doubt the water was taken on the earliest point in the timeline

[charred nimbus]

I was doing another playtru yesterday and i decided to needolin the Pontiff's body

[limpid summit]

The citadel also uhh

Built a shrine to Nyleth in her time so she at least fell asleep late

[frosty gate]

I'd say more like Bilewater, Greymoor didn't rebel much right?

[edgy barn]

we never see the infraestructure the citadel uses to get water. they could be getting it from pretty much anywhere like mount fay.

[frosty gate]

I woudln't blame GMS for this one, we actually don't know

[edgy barn]

Greymoor and Sinner's Road used to be farmlands before the citadel set them up to catch silk. I doubt they would have switched willingly.

[fading shard]

okay yk what after a while of searching the sentinels, kingmoulds do count as a knights and as a "army"

a defencive one but a army none the less

[edgy barn]

Hornet blames both GMS and "the system designed to contain her" (aka the citadel)

[frosty gate]

I think Weavers are to blame for this one, but Prince knows about GMS because he saw what they did to others.
The lack of Choristor corpses in Verdania make me think it was before that

[fading shard]

everything we know about them points to them being an army

[fading shard]

They might not be a OFFENCIVE army

but they are a defencive one

so i was right

[frosty gate]

I mean, yes, but the System designed to contain her was made by the weavers, they might have fucked Verdania up for all we know

[fading shard]

And yes I could not let that go so much that I went on a side tangent of looking up as much stuff as possible to find something

[fading shard]

Probaly they did

The conductors came in a lot later on

[frosty gate]

I still don't know what to think about the Weavers, they're victims of GMS but also really bad people overall

[fading shard]

bad people with sad backstories?

[frosty gate]

Shocking, right?

[teal drift]

I dont see any evidence whatsoever that gms wasnt an excellent mother and the weavers were just little brats

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers describe her rule as "web and service eternal"

And not the evil Citadel weavers who could maaaaaaybe be lying, mind you

Lace also proves she has a twisted idea of motherhood

[silk dirge]

my take is all are evil but weavers are the least bc they were literally enslaved by gms

they did a lot of unjustified shit but putting gms to sleep with the citadel was atleast somewhat justified

[frosty gate]

I mean they probably still serviced GMS to do some horrible things, we still don't know who fucked Karak up

We know it was GMS but I doubt it was GMS herself who took care of that

So it was either the Weavers

Or some soldiers we don't know

[terse warren]

all yap no sauce

the grand mother silk agenda cannot be stopped

[fading shard]

probably weavers

[silk dirge]

i mean why would gms raise up weavers to do anything other than be eternal slaves to her

[terse warren]

Because she wants daughters

Idk you but personally I wouldn't defy the ever-consuming Void just to save an eternal slave

[fading shard]

also yk what shoelace the sentinels and kingsmould count as a army

I looked up a bunch of stuff

and you don't have to be a "knight" to be part of a military force in medieval times

[terse warren]

Brother

1. It is NOT that deep

2. Why are you assuming that Hallownest works off of real life medieval times logic?

[fading shard]

because it's just common sense

Hallownest has a defencive force

[silk dirge]

idk how someone can see gms grabbing random weavers from other kingdoms and say "oh yeah thats fine she just wants a daughter"

[fading shard]

That much is certain

[fading shard]

A military doesn't have to necesserily be offencive

besides it's honestly takes a lots of hoops of logic to just assume there are 5 guys defending hallownest

[terse warren]

It's not common sense to assume a kingdom of bugs works off of medieval logic, no

[fading shard]

It's common sense that the sentinels and kingsmould count as a defencive force

[frosty gate]

Oh that was the logic? i could've told you that, most soldiers weren't knights. To be Knighted is to be given a medal in modern times

[fading shard]

Idk why you're just trying to downplay the sentinels and kingsmould as if they don't exist

[frosty gate]

It's just a title

[fading shard]

Yes they aren't confirmed to be knights but they are still prevalent

[terse warren]

This still doesn't prove the were though

Nor that they were an army

[fading shard]

they are called guards and protectors in journal entries

[frosty gate]

I think it's more like "Fuck em i don't care"
We don't actually know many place from which they took Weavers tho.
Blackbarrens and Sandsea Waste seem to be places but not kingdoms. City of Steel was def a Kingdom, but they probably didn't care about it

[fading shard]

that's a pretty cut and dry case of them being a defencive force shoelace

[terse warren]

Except that happened way in the future and it's because she was betrayed by them?

You're removing all of the context

[silk dirge]

she was betrayed by random weaver descendants?

i highly doubt that 1/8 weaver did anything to her

[fading shard]

I mean all the weavers they took were part weavers

like 2 1/8 wevers

[silk dirge]

theres a bunch of cages in the background so there probably were more than what we could read

[sinful nimbus]

The convo was about pre-sealing GMS

[fading shard]

1 1/4 weaver

[fading shard]

I am aware star

I am just saying

[silk dirge]

anyways im just saying the fact she does this shows she probably isnt a nice person and has a fucked up idea of motherhood

[frosty gate]

I mean yeah but if kingdom's are more like Pharloom and not like Hallownest, I don't think many cared to protect the Weavers.
PK is the only one I would believe was willing to protect them

[frosty gate]

Lace or GMS?

[silk dirge]

gms

[frosty gate]

Nevermind they're both fucked up

[sinful nimbus]

Well the City of Steel probably isn't too keen to have one of their magic servants taken away

[silk dirge]

i mean its not like they are being freed either since their next destination is being bound by gms

[fading shard]

Okay star would you agree that hallownest even if not directly stated had a military

[frosty gate]

But not out of protecting her, just trying to keep what's theirs

[fading shard]

Ik this is a dragged on debate but I just want opinions from other people and if I'm the only one who thinks this

[sinful nimbus]

uh, yeah?

[frosty gate]

How many did they lose on that one?

[silk dirge]

how are the 5 great knights not military

[fading shard]

oh thank freaking christ

I have such a long debate about the five great knights not being the only defenders of hallownest

so hearing you agree with me makes me feel a bit btter

[fading shard]

well that's only 5 guys

[sinful nimbus]

I imagine the 5 great knights could take most threats though

[silk dirge]

i mean thats like a personal military

[limpid summit]

Husk sentries are military

[silk dirge]

id bet you can find examples of that irl

[fading shard]

THANK YOU

[silk dirge]

yeah for sure

[fading shard]

thank you appleegg

[limpid summit]

The difference is PK likely mostly had a domestic military cause he wasn’t gonna go off and conquer or fight other places

So people would say oh he doesn’t have one

[fading shard]

I agree

[sinful nimbus]

That's probably not feasible with the beacon and all that too

[limpid summit]

My goats abhiker and pogseal

[fading shard]

Okay tahnk god I am not going insane and you guys agree

[limpid summit]

Star you too

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway why does Nightmare Heart not show up in Red Memory

[fading shard]

why would they?

[silk dirge]

also kingsmoulds are palace defense which is military

[sinful nimbus]

Beats Vespa

[limpid summit]

Because TC already touched on NMH

They touch on or reference every HB or prospective HB

[silk dirge]

why would hornet have any memory of nmh

[fading shard]

okay so you guys also agree on that thank god

[limpid summit]

GoTaR don’t count

[fading shard]

I don't think they even know of the nightmare heart

[silk dirge]

yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Its clearly the nightmare realm

[fading shard]

only jiji and white lady know of it

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't need a memory per se

[fading shard]

and also seer I think menthions them

[limpid summit]

Jiji?

Oh yeah “forms dreamed”

[fading shard]

jiji actually does have dialogue

[fading shard]

The pale king most definetely did too when he was alive

[silk dirge]

i mean the only similarity is theyre red to me

[fading shard]

and not a dead corpse that the white lady still simps for

[limpid summit]

Jinn doesn’t have any Troupe dialogue right

Ig she’s young and wouldn’t know

[fading shard]

no

only jiji

[limpid summit]

Fair

[silk dirge]

if you really want nmh in red memory sure go ahead

[fading shard]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-gif-23195488

[silk dirge]

but im not going to join you on that one

[fading shard]

Seriously though

why the hel does he have this state

[sinful nimbus]

I mean it'd be a more natural conclusion that Grimm trained Hornet than Vespa

[limpid summit]

That’s his real state

[silk dirge]

bro just ran a mile

[limpid summit]

His fat state must be genuinely terrifying in universe

[silk dirge]

ok wait wtf your cooking

im sorry i doubted you

[limpid summit]

So true

[sinful nimbus]

God bless

[fading shard]

Like idc if it's because his body is inflated and his actual form looked like this

[silk dirge]

ignore how none of those are natural abilities of hornet

[fading shard]

Like I get "techincally why" this is a thing but come on

[fading shard]

I say coincidence

[limpid summit]

Maybe his actual body was fat but his soul misuse like drained the soul from his body when he wasn’t using it

[silk dirge]

which i will do bc its a cooking theory

[limpid summit]

How are the Soul Twisters described

[sinful nimbus]

Was the reaper trained by Grimm

[fading shard]

I am aware

[silk dirge]

maybe

[limpid summit]

No it might not be

[silk dirge]

probably not tho

[limpid summit]

Like wait it actually might not be

Headless ghost in spirit’s glade

[fading shard]

Why would they

[silk dirge]

but like the reaper would also swing their blade like that right

even if theyre not trained by grimm

i feel like what they mean by "reaper" is someone who reaped crops

they did that action to plants

considering greymoor its what makes the most sense

[sinful nimbus]

These two attacks are very similar. And like how the Reaper reaped crops, Grimm reaps Nightmare Essence from fallen kingdoms, even going so far as to compare his task to agriculture

A fine stage you choose, this kingdom fallowed by worm and root, perfect earth upon which our Ritual shall take place.

[limpid summit]

If Mr Mushrooms’ poem in HK refers to the fall of the age of Wyrms and his SS poem refers to the fall of the Steel Masters what do you think he said when he first came to Hallownest before Rad fell

[silk dirge]

grimm should help us kill moorwing

[fading shard]

the steel masters are confirmed to still be around appleegg

[silk dirge]

that stupid bird that should be banished to nightmare realm

[limpid summit]

Yeah but DLC

[fading shard]

they are still around and kicking and so is the city of steel

[limpid summit]

Hornet is going to fight them

Mr mushroom is heralding their fall it hasn’t happened

[fading shard]

here's the thing though how would she be able to win

[limpid summit]

Lies and truths must be discussed...
Stone will break and steel shall rust...
Caps and shells may fall to dust...
But Mister mushroom readjusts...

[fading shard]

they stronger then the pale king and radiance combinedx

[sinful nimbus]

Stone will break... Like the Citadel of Stone...

[fading shard]

they could destroy hallownests military and kill off all the great knights

[limpid summit]

Or the Growstone

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[fading shard]

and like come on hallownests army is far more impressive then the choir of the cidatels

[silk dirge]

OK WAIT THATS COOKING

[fading shard]

or krust king khans army

[sinful nimbus]

Khaan might rival it

[limpid summit]

Khann is underrated

[silk dirge]

ogrim solos all grand reeds

[limpid summit]

Gigantic army crazy territory TRUE

[sinful nimbus]

But Hallownest is noted to have an unusual amount of strong beings so I'd wager it'd still win

[silk dirge]

grand reeds are fucking weak af

one literally got taken by a random outcast ant

[fading shard]

The sentinels are enough to beat the choir

Remember that the great sentinels are so strong that the hunter calls them a threat

[sinful nimbus]

This is the one time my goat was washed

[fading shard]

who is your goat?

[sinful nimbus]

Hunter

[limpid summit]

Hunter is pretty strong

[fading shard]

why was he washed?

[limpid summit]

But he didn’t beat TotF because he muses on GT

[sinful nimbus]

They're Great Sentries 🥀

[limpid summit]

So he hasn’t seen her in action

Downscale

[sinful nimbus]

How did he beat Colo if he finds those hard

[fading shard]

great sentries are canonically extremely powerful soldiers star

[limpid summit]

I wonder how Colo plays out normally

[fading shard]

Don't underestimate them

besides I think this more so shows the strength of hallownests army then the hunters weakness

if he calls most other enemies weak

[limpid summit]

Like are all the Fools fighting and then the applying contestant like TK or Tiso is just a special guest

[fading shard]

or fun to fight against

[limpid summit]

What if a Fool canonically kills you during a wave does it move on to the next wave

[fading shard]

well would that work?

[sinful nimbus]

The colo was awesome looking back

The bench room with sleeping soldiers while you hear the commotion above was a 10/10 bench

[limpid summit]

True

Canonical hype moments

Shade trap 💔

[fading shard]

hallownest has the huge advantage of the sheer size it has compared to khan

[sinful nimbus]

It also had a Zote cameo which looking back was a great character

[fading shard]

Zote waqs a funny gag

[limpid summit]

The Zote cameo is super funny when you dream nail him and realize that in his mind he won

Canon schizophrenia

[sinful nimbus]

I took HK's characters for granted

[limpid summit]

Eh

I think the non quest regular dialogue NPCs are honestly better in SS

Because TC got quirkier with designs and characters

[sinful nimbus]

No one is going to prefer Frey to Iselda I'm sorry to say

[limpid summit]

That’s a vendor

Doesn’t count

[edgy barn]

who's frey

[sinful nimbus]

Or Jubilana to Sly

[limpid summit]

Vendors are mostly worse

[sinful nimbus]

Exactly

[limpid summit]

The one with the most character is probably Grindle but he’s not a good character

Oh wait I forgot 12th and FD

We creating new acronyms on the fly

[edgy barn]

Oh bellhart merchant

[sinful nimbus]

Elderbug (\🥀) was better than Pilby and Pavo

[limpid summit]

Aw what

[sinful nimbus]

Caretaker is fine I like him

[limpid summit]

Ok true but Pillby is cute

[sinful nimbus]

He's what Elderbug should've been

[silk dirge]

what about flick

[limpid summit]

Caretaker is great

[sinful nimbus]

He's better than Flick too

[fading shard]

I mean there's a reason most people love the hollow knight npcs

[sinful nimbus]

Flick has no dialogue you can't even talk to him half the time

[limpid summit]

Looking back minus the void stuff the Snail Shamans are tu interesting

It was cool seeing them again

[fading shard]

disagreed

[limpid summit]

Fair

Idk I just like

[fading shard]

There are a few

[limpid summit]

Willoh?

[fading shard]

that are equal to hollow knight npcs

[limpid summit]

I do like the ghosts I think they gave HK many more interesting one notes

[fading shard]

1. shakra
2. care taker
3. bell beast
4. sherma

[fading shard]

Like those are genuinely good additions that I gnuinely like

[silk dirge]

i feel like the thing is silksong just has more npcs so its hard to make them stand out

[sinful nimbus]

Hype moments and aura

[fading shard]

oh also flint the fletcher

[sinful nimbus]

The best thing about the shamans is the Flickering Flame joke

[fading shard]

But the rest are mid

[limpid summit]

Their designs are really good

[sinful nimbus]

Also the game portrays the Shamans as being in the wrong for legit no reason which kinda makes the entire encounter hard to take seriously

[limpid summit]

I like how they have different shells and body types

[fading shard]

Lik I can at most see why people like garmond and zaza

but like other then them I don't get how one could compare the npcs

to the hollow knight noes

[limpid summit]

I thought Zaza would get better closure

[sinful nimbus]

What's the point of Garmond and Zaza

[limpid summit]

LG was sad

[limpid summit]

They’re from Nameless Town

[silk dirge]

don quixhote reference

[limpid summit]

His hat looks like the houses

[heavy tusk]

they are?

[sinful nimbus]

There's legit no closure yeah

[edgy barn]

the one npc that is unquestionably better than its HK counterpart is Mask Maker.

[sinful nimbus]

Garmond turns into a Tumblr OC and dies and that's it

[wintry flame]

TRUEEEE

[sinful nimbus]

Mask Maker has aura

[sterile jacinth]

The momento you get from nameless town looks like garamonds hat

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet has to ruin everything she touches though and the Pale Lacquer dialogue leaves a sour taste in my mouth

[heavy tusk]

is there any lore about the liquid lancer? what is it and why does mask maker want it?

[wintry flame]

the moment he starts speaking in sequelbait you know he means business

[fading shard]

they aren't

[wintry flame]

if there any lore about the gasoline? what is it and why does the car want it?

[edgy barn]

Garmond's village is a different one. Otherwise there would be no point in having two mementos.

[sterile jacinth]

Sequel bait…

[fading shard]

Their town was affected in a part of pharloom that was in the outskirts but was affected by the haunting

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah that’s fair I’m just giving the argument for them being from nameless town

[fading shard]

the nameless town is canonically outside of the haunting

[limpid summit]

True I was joking sorry guys

[sinful nimbus]

It glazes the masks

[fading shard]

I agree

[limpid summit]

Stop glazing the masks

[sinful nimbus]

Apparently it also protects the masks according to their descriptions

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s a little too lore significant for them to actually be from nameless town

[edgy barn]

the liquid lacer is a pale glaze. you could say a lot of this chat is liquid lacer.

[limpid summit]

YESSIR

[sinful nimbus]

so true

[limpid summit]

Who is MM actually making the masks for

Let’s talk about this no metaphors no nothing

[frosty gate]

Pilgrims?

[wintry flame]

the stilkin are such pussies by the time the haunting hit the citadel the high halls would have maggot water running the mills

[sinful nimbus]

Nosks

[limpid summit]

Eh idk

[sinful nimbus]

No probably weirdos like Styx

[limpid summit]

They look like their faces

[edgy barn]

their masks look like part of their bodies to me.

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe bugs can seek him out if they want a change of identity

[limpid summit]

But who is Styxlike in HK

[sinful nimbus]

Z axis

Fixed

[limpid summit]

True

[wintry flame]

i'd have phantom turned into a spool of silk

[limpid summit]

I always thought he made the Distant Villager disguises cause ig those are “masks” if masks mean faces

But then he says to this kingdom’s faceless

Is he talking about the land in general or Hallownest

[lean temple]

They just make masks for the general public

[limpid summit]

But WHO

[lean temple]

You mean cuz they're isolated?

[sterile jacinth]

Phantom isn’t a pushover. Also I don’t think Groal even fits in the exhaust organ

[limpid summit]

Yes

[wintry flame]

phantom wants to die the death of a warrior bro

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah they still put up a big fight against you tho so I doubt they’d let themselves fall to stiltkin

I’m saying phantom probably wins any fight against them

[lean temple]

The masks could be shipped to whoever needs them in the kingdom. Mask Makers live in isolation maybe so that their Sight isn't constantly acting on the bugs around them. When alone they can focus more

[wintry flame]

if i were groal i'd roll bell heremit into a big cigarette and smoke him

[sterile jacinth]

Hornet is quite literally built different

[finite cave]

groal should have given everyone some soul

like enough for a mini vengeful spirit

they would have literal guns to clear a haunted citadel

[wintry flame]

an area with common enemies using spells against you would be so fire

[sterile jacinth]

What a great mod idea 😔

It would make bilewater that much more fun

[wintry flame]

soul sanctum doesn't count

[finite cave]

groal should have been more traitor lord-like anyways imo

[wintry flame]

how

[finite cave]

thwyre both cool as hell

[fading shard]

practically all masks are part of a bugs anatomy

[sterile jacinth]

I think sharing like that would conflict with groals character tho. He’s not a very great guy. He does kill someone who was trying to help him to get the soul

[finite cave]

🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[wintry flame]

i like how groal looks completely fucked compared to the stilkin

[fading shard]

yk we learned a lot of new stuff about masks thanks to silksong

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s partially the soul warping his physique

[wintry flame]

yeah like sm

[frosty gate]

Do you guys think GMS created the Weavers the moment she got to Pharloom or she took her sweet time?

[twin ocean]

guys why does seth forget everything did we give him head trauma or sum

[limpid summit]

Groal didn’t realize that him and the shamans could solo her ass 💔

[frosty gate]

Probably yeah

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. He’s selfish

[finite cave]

no he wasnt he stole the soul the guy wanted to negotiate a peace deal but groal was smart enough not to trust the citadel

[wintry flame]

seth is funny because the promo material mentioned a voice guiding him but there's no "voice" in the final game

[limpid summit]

Nyleth’s power bewitched him like how Nymm forgot his identity after we freed him

Nyleth doesn’t speak or sing

[finite cave]

didnt nymm lose his grimm troupe mask tho

[sterile jacinth]

The snail shaman? Or the pinstresses? Because I don’t think either of them are with the citadel

[limpid summit]

Yeah but the masks were metaphorical

It was the dream essence that was the real power

[edgy barn]

the Seeeker was not trying to negotiate a peace, he wanted to ally with the stilkin against the citadel.

I will not tolerate any kind of Seeker slander.

[wintry flame]

seeker got hung up the wall like a deer head

[fading shard]

what you tywo talking about

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah

The dead snail shaman in bilewater

[frosty gate]

Seeker was such a sad thing to see ngl

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah :/

That’s why I don’t think Groal would share the soul. He already killed someone who tried to ally with him

[wintry flame]

lowkey i get it

i'm trying to overthrow the us government and a guy with power says he can "help" me? With your power? Why don't you just give me the power you little shit? I'm eviscerating you in a hut in my swamp

[sterile jacinth]

And stealing your soul. Idiot

[wintry flame]

he was probably greedy and suspicious

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe. We don’t see the other snail shamans acting that way though

[limpid summit]

Genuine question

[sterile jacinth]

Bell hermit is very nihilistic but not like greedy

[limpid summit]

Is HK Hornet a fraud

[wintry flame]

i meant groal

[sterile jacinth]

Oh yeah for sure

[limpid summit]

She wants to put the ghosts of the past to rest but she only picks off Vessels why not attack someone like Soul Master or Traitor Lord

[sterile jacinth]

I also think he couldn’t really handle the soul so he fell to the haunting

[wintry flame]

hk hornet was fighting ghost and didn't even pull out voltvessels???? the fuck???

[zinc cloud]

you know silksongs a sequel... right?

[left rivet]

I love how canonically hornet lost her hk strength from just a cage and becomes even more powerful

I mean the cage had silk runes but like

[wintry flame]

if hk hornet was actually trying her best we'd see her using shaman crest Nart with pale nails and sharpdart voltfilament but whatever

[sterile jacinth]

Yes because hk Hornet has already been to Pharloom /j

[wintry flame]

if she was good she'd simply ignore this information

[opaque pier]

If hornet actually tried her best she would use a gun

[sterile jacinth]

Geo cannon

[left rivet]

It takes 80 rosaries to shoot for 12 seconds

[zinc cloud]

rosaries and geo is not that diferent in size or shape, i bet if you just load up geo in a rosary cannon it would work, less ammo but still

[wintry flame]

worst tool in the game

[left rivet]

That gold noble gonna be filled with guns in the richer side of cot

[left rivet]

Incorrect: charm.

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah it sucks so bad

[left rivet]

"Sly keeps stealing them after I shoot!"

[wintry flame]

the game actually shits on you so much for getting it 😭 it's the last thing i did in game for 100% because i needed my simple keys for other, more important things

[sterile jacinth]

Oh yeah that shit requires a simple key

I mean you get a lot of rosaries but there are better ways to use one for sure

[left rivet]

Baptamas geo????

[left rivet]

I love how I just never use my tools out of a kind of obsession of keeping myself at full shell shards :p

[wintry flame]

simple key gets you:

flintslate, access to the abyss and the other half of DD, craftmetal
wormways access, sharpdart, purse, phial, wanderer crest
verdania access, extra boss refight and game progression in act III
rosary cannon

wormways might be the best 500 geo you'll ever invest in the entire game

[sterile jacinth]

Yep 😭

[wintry flame]

it's so much shit

[opaque pier]

Cant u get wanderes with wall jump tho?

[left rivet]

Wait verdania access???

[sterile jacinth]

I actually got wanderers without wormways

[heavy gyro]

rosary cannon is funny though so its automatically better

[left rivet]

I don't remember needing to find verdania with key

[sterile jacinth]

You gotta free green prince

[wintry flame]

you can get it before even fighting lace through WW though which i think is hilarious

[zinc cloud]

access to the abyss you can get without opening the door i think

[sterile jacinth]

I just glided from the place you can jump on the cages

I landed on top of the temple and just wall jumped up

[wintry flame]

true

simple key makes it all a LOOOOOT easier though

[left rivet]

Nvm that's the most good key (for emotional damage at yaoi)

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. Doomed bug yaoi 😔

[left rivet]

I love gay yaoi 🤤😍

[steep talon]

i love gay gay or yaoi yaoi?

[sterile jacinth]

Is there straight yaoi 😭

[left rivet]

Both

Good question

[left rivet]

Ok MB about the weird emoji I don't like THAT obbess over it

[sterile jacinth]

Wormways was the last key place I actually got to

[left rivet]

I plz believe me...:(

[sterile jacinth]

I do not like wormways that much

[left rivet]

I hate the oil worms so much idk why I struggle against them so much 🙁

[sterile jacinth]

Oil?

[bronze turret]

Wasn't one of my favorite areas either, but the further elaboration on Lifeblood was worth the hassle

[fading shard]

oh hey butterfly

[bronze turret]

Heeeeey

[fading shard]

[sterile jacinth]

I agree. It’s just tedious to go through lol

[fading shard]

what's the discussion

[sterile jacinth]

Not much. We were talking about simple keys

And how i got the wanderers crest without wormways

[bronze turret]

Oooooo yeeeeeeeeees! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBLmE2qoLVg

[sterile jacinth]

I think lifeblood and how it works implies its controlled by a higher being like the radiance

I think it works like rads infection but it’s more… hidden

It’s a trap

[bronze turret]

Yeah no secrets there, their world is as much a sandbox for eldritch outer gods as it is in Elden Ring 😂

[fading shard]

was that the intended path?

[upper copper]

Do cochineals exist in this verse?

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah lol

[left rivet]

Lil

[fading shard]

I just jumped on the walls to the gate to it

[sterile jacinth]

I dont know. I just glided down from where you can jump to wormways on the cages and then landed on top of the ruined chapel

[fading shard]

Like after I beat widow I just went back to the moss grotto

[left rivet]

@bronze turret hi

The sk lore gang is all here

[fading shard]

I just wall climbed lol

[bronze turret]

Hello!

[fading shard]

I mean we're missing zza, weapon, the other star, appleegg

[left rivet]

I love how there's always a specific group of ppl here: me, butterfly, skarr enjoyer, and some others who rnt on rn

[sterile jacinth]

Hello yes hi i like this place more than general

[fading shard]

I always prefer talking to star, zza, apple egg and twiststiker

[sterile jacinth]

And also im a little fixated on it rn lol

[left rivet]

There's also phoneix, pen likes lore, etc

[left rivet]

Never heard of em u cant wait to chat with them on here 😊

[upper copper]

Does hollow knight/silksong have cochineals?

[left rivet]

I'm not sure

[frosty gate]

Ok, do we or do we not agree that Weavers were created and sent by GMS to forcefully conquer the Land

[sterile jacinth]

Remind me what those are again

[sterile jacinth]

I agree with this personallly

[bronze turret]

Game has never addressed their possible existence, but being a world of bugs, doesn't sound crazy to imagine at least

[left rivet]

Real same I'm very into the old kingdoms especially skarr and verdania

[raw pewter]

Were there evidence indicating this? I don't know

[sterile jacinth]

Ough yeah same

[left rivet]

Likely just normal bugs

[raw pewter]

The Skarr and the Mantis Tribe are my favourite factions of both games

[left rivet]

They are so cool and have such awesome leaders like karmelita and the clover princes

[fading shard]

I mean everybody agress that gms evolved the pharlids into weavers but that other part I'm not so sure about

I mean I think it makes sense

[frosty gate]

GMS conquered the lands of Pharloom forcefully, we don't particularly know who did the actual conquering under her name, but it's very plausible it was the Weaver, I doubt she would do it herself

[sterile jacinth]

I know they’re neat. I really like Karak too

[left rivet]

Khann is cool too through his military

[frosty gate]

We don't really have proof anyone did it, we just know she conquered

[sterile jacinth]

I have a personal theory that the prosperity of a land is very closely tied to its rulers, so if one dies the other does too. We see this with verdania and Karak

[strange bronze]

Here is what I've been thinking. Was the Citadel built during the reign of GMS to worship her or after the rebellion by the Weavers?

[frosty gate]

But I doubt GMS herself to the time to push everyone back

[left rivet]

Also just checking did the weavers build citadel or gms

[sterile jacinth]

Personally i think it was built by the weavers as a trap and its true purpose wasn’t revealed to gms until she was already trapped

[blissful harbor]

weavers built the citadel to trap silk

[sterile jacinth]

Weavers. The mask maker conforms this

[frosty gate]

The Citadel was made by Weavers while GMS still ruled

[sterile jacinth]

I think they built it disguised as a tribute to her and later revealed it was actually a trap

[frosty gate]

But as i keep insisting, GMS had to have a Kingdom at some point

[bronze turret]

I agree with this one, sounds on brand with how most religious growths played out throughout history; get a group, make them believe what they're doing is good, tell them to spread the gospels, and you know the rest!

[steep talon]

queendom I guess?

[sterile jacinth]

I think so too. Her rule would have to have been absolute just due to her personality so it would make sense why she would attack other kingdoms

[raw pewter]

Ah good ol Holy Crusade

[frosty gate]

So the terrain of the Citadel was probably her own land

[sterile jacinth]

Exactly

[frosty gate]

Nobody expects the Silken Inquisiton!

[left rivet]

Wait but weavers made citadel to stop GMs from waking up...

[strange bronze]

I believe Pharloom was her entire kingdom

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. I think they disguised it as a tribute to her so they could properly build it

[bronze turret]

https://tenor.com/view/spanish-no-one-expected-inquisition-gif-18096957

[steep talon]

to lull her to sleep more like

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe she personally claimed it while other kingdoms were still living there lmao

[left rivet]

No wait they first trapped her THEN built citadel to keep it that way

[sterile jacinth]

Join or die type shit

[frosty gate]

She had limits or so it seems.
She didn't Rule Karak, Hunter's March, Verdania and Shellwood

[raw pewter]

I mean, it's the same with the Pale King and Hallownest, minus the forceful takeover

[steep talon]

probably built citadel while also trying to make it a trap

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. Pale king at least tried to be a good ruler. Gms wanted absolute control

[frosty gate]

Not exactly, PK just interconnected the place, the others just told him to fuck off but he still connected everything

Except QG...

[raw pewter]

A bit of a long shot, but Archivist.... Magnus Archives?

[left rivet]

Wait I thought of smt maybe that's why green prince is mortal and alive it was RECENTLY like maybe a few years or a decade since GMs started to haunt ppl and caused them to try to take over... Not the case for karmelita tho

[sterile jacinth]

No lol its from my dumb little comic im trying to write

[blissful harbor]

the gardens weren’t taken forcefully either though, PK was a pretty alright dude

[raw pewter]

Ahhh, a swing and a miss, sorry, carry on

[sterile jacinth]

I’ve gotten that question a lot

[left rivet]

Worship yes. Otherwise he just let the kingdom rule itself 🙂

[frosty gate]

Not forceful, but absolutely unjust. That was not their land, it wasn't a war because Unn is a pacifist so she just let him take it

Queen's Garden was stolen from Unn and the Mosskin

[raw pewter]

Well it's good to know there are a ton of Magnus Archives enjoyers out in the wild, shame I haven't met a single one

[blissful harbor]

i mean the mosskin seem alright with it, no one seems to have any issues i don’t see it as unjust

[frosty gate]

By the Queen no567heless

[sterile jacinth]

I think it was awhile ago. I think the purification of bilewater contributed in verdanias decline and the citadel couldn’t stop it. Also the princes partner dying i bet also heavily contributed to the death of the whole kingdom

[steep talon]

haunting is very recent. And Green Prince while not stated to be immortal, doesn't seem to age, or at least cant die from old age

[left rivet]

I wonder if a verdania comic about verdanias peaceful happy times would be cool(then tragic cuz u know)

[blissful harbor]

WL came and sat down, mosskin were like alright chill, guess that’s hers now

[frosty gate]

There's a lore tablet that says otherwise, let me find it

[sterile jacinth]

Ah that sucks lol. Good luck

[fading shard]

that was the queens actions

he has a parto f the blame twis

but let's give most of it to her alright

[left rivet]

The kingdom died while the prince sacrificed himself to become cogeork dancers

[blissful harbor]

it basically says, though once our lands a pale beings lays claim
though she may appear benevolent be wary

[sterile jacinth]

Ough gut punch

[fading shard]

it's only fair

[blissful harbor]

nothing about being forceful or unjust

[steep talon]

dont think there any that say mosskin bitched about PK. They just tell their fellows not to hunt on PK territory basically

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah and it didn’t work. The citadel wasn’t able to preserve any of it if they even tried

[fading shard]

well

[bronze turret]

I guess he knew it's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar

[strange bronze]

I think she did conquer Karak. However, I doubt that Hunter's March was under her influence until the haunting. Verdania and Shellwood were both impacted by the Citadel either through a form of sacrifice for a peace treaty or a deal that benefits both parties.

[blissful harbor]

Though once our lands, a pale being lays claim to the caverns ahead. It may appear benevolent but it does not share our dream. Be wary to wander that place.

[sterile jacinth]

I think its only after you claim the twinned heart do you put the princes pain to rest and allow verdania to regrow

[raw pewter]

I still believe Verdania died off because of the Citadel's action, not intentional of course, but the pollution and neglect of the Citadel play a role in the destruction of Verdania

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah i agree. The death of one of its princes and the death of the will of the other definitely did not help

[fading shard]

"Though once our lands, a pale being lays claim to the caverns ahead.
It may appear benevolent but it does not share our dream.
Be wary to wander that place."

[raw pewter]

The fact Verdania is next to Greymoor, a place I assumed is grey because of the Exhaust Organ above them contribute to my belief

[fading shard]

I am aware senris

[frosty gate]

This is not particularly a "Yeah go take our lands haha" claim

"Though once our lands, a pale being lays claim to the caverns ahead. It may appear benevolent but it does not share our dream."

[steep talon]

hell yeah, snail emoji

[sterile jacinth]

Oh you’re probably right

[bronze turret]

Oh it's undeniable the Citadel's industrialization bled into adjacent areas and ruined their ecosystems with its pollution!

[steep talon]

i fucking love snail emoji

[sterile jacinth]

I didn’t consider that for graymoors decline

Karmelita must have kept it from influencing far fields. It will die now unfortunately

[frosty gate]

Citadel and GMS go separate regarding Verdania and Shellwood.
She conquered most of Karak, but she didn't go on into the actual Sands of Karak place.

[fading shard]

both of us already posted this

[vestal swan]

Verdania seems to have had a direct confrontation with GMS/Citadel

[fading shard]

by that I mean senris and I

[frosty gate]

Mb

[steep talon]

because of "land fell to thread and ruin" line?

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah I agree. That doesnt mean the purification of bilewater didn’t contribute

[fading shard]

That wasn't his point, and I agree with you that they weren't a huge fan of that twis

[strange bronze]

I think it's mostly the Citadel

[fading shard]

but that's mostly on the white lady not the pale king

[frosty gate]

Mostly, I think this was a Weaver action

[vestal swan]

Because one of the princes sacrificed himself to avoid conflict, and it still died, and hornet and GPs conversation blame GMS

[sterile jacinth]

Probably both. Verdania is a proud place and i doubt they’d bow to the citadel. Gms rule must be absolute so they must die

[vestal swan]

They literally offered up one of their Royal leaders

If that's not bending the knee I don't know what is

[sterile jacinth]

It might have been too late at that point

Or maybe the citadel was feeling petty

[steep talon]

hmm, dont think GP is aware of GMS. He says citadel is a golden leach atop the lands. Think if he was aware he would just say it's GMS or at least not call her golden

[frosty gate]

I think they blame GMS because the plan was to seal her, but it was probably the Weavers who did the actual thing

[vestal swan]

They talk about a pale being being in control, he knows

[raw pewter]

Do we think that the draught of the Coral Forest to the Sands of Karak is the Citadel's fault or just natural occurrence? I assume the fact the Coral Forest dried up and became Sands of Karak is due to the death of Krust King Khan, so is the death of Khan due to his war with the Citadel?

[vestal swan]

I hate the English language by the way, rereading my own sentence hurt my head

[steep talon]

does he? I think he talks about citadel. Though line about thread and ruin is kinda curious but not that weird

[edgy barn]

Khann does not actually die until Hornet takes his heart.

[sterile jacinth]

Citadels fault. The death of their leader didn’t help either and i bet it sped up the process

[strange bronze]

I believe their lines were directly focused on the Weavers instead of GMS. The pale monarch was basically put into slumber at the time I suppose.

[vestal swan]

Everything is their fault, it just depends on how they did it. Did they kill some creature that was responsible for the water? Did they divert it for the factories? Either way it's not suggested like something that naturally happened

[vestal swan]

Weavers are not pale

[blissful harbor]

all the water in high halls comes from somewhere

[edgy barn]

Karakans crust up when they die and this doesn't happen to Khann until after Hornet beats him.

[bronze turret]

I guess I'll pull a Scoot and paste the Green Prince dialogue, it's good analysis material!

[sterile jacinth]

He’s basically dead. His pride and spirit is at least.

[steep talon]

that would be a little weird, because Khann mentions that he is the last to fight against pale monarch. Very directly mentioning GMS. If she was asleep, he wouldnt know about her, or calling weavers pale for some reason

or he just didnt know about verdania which is also not unreasonable

[sterile jacinth]

I mean the weavers were told they were divine

[raw pewter]

It's because I think Khan's death is similar or the same as Karmelita, their presence is what keep their kingdom alive and if they die their kingdom and the land they ruled die with them

[frosty gate]

To be fair, Hornet is the one who brings up GMS and Prince doesn't seem to react much

"Hornet: You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.
Hornet: Feel guilt at your absence, sir, but know the end was inexorable, the outcome set, whether you remained or not."

[vestal swan]

Nobody's calling Weaver's pale that's just people misinterpreting all the dialogue

[steep talon]

they're not pale though

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah i agree. Kahn is a lot more dead than karm

[sterile jacinth]

Im aware. Im saying maybe Karak didn’t know that or the weavers were perpetuating the fact that they thought they were divine

[fading shard]

what the pale king did with hallownest isn't similar at all. He formed his own kingdom while still respecting the other tribes, he didn't invade, he respected their wishes and with the exception of queens gardens where his wife did a iffy act he did his absolute best to respect the boundries of the tribes and have good relations with them and have peace

[bronze turret]

Green Prince Choral Chambers dialogue!

[edgy barn]

Weavers are never reffered as Pale. Not even by each other.

[fading shard]

so no it wasn't a take over whatsoever

[frosty gate]

Khann specifically says "Pale Light" I doubt its anyone but gms

[sterile jacinth]

Alright that makes sense. They do call themselves divine or say they were called divine tho

[strange bronze]

I'd love to think that Sands of Karak were conquered but not left to dried until the construct of the Citadel. Karak's water source mostly depends on Mount Fay perhaps? And the Citadel might just redirect the stream to High Halls, leaving Karak fell into dust and sands

[steep talon]

that could be it. But it seems it's easy to identify something as pale, it's a physical characteristic. so idk

[fading shard]

Plot twist it's actually the white ladies evil twin sister

[raw pewter]

Yes, that's my point, the Pale King actually tried to do things peacefully while GMS did it forcefully

[fading shard]

This is a joke, please take this as a joke

[steep talon]

darn, I thought Citadel was making brass, but it's just stupid bronze!!! Brass fans stay loosing i suppose

[fading shard]

He's a decent guy

[sterile jacinth]

That makes sense. With lands being tied so closely to their residents and that defeat being a huge loss of spirit and moral i bet it hastened Karak drying up even more

[raw pewter]

But the fact is, "Pale Being who come into the Land and try to create a kingdom that worship them" is the exact same thing to what the Pale King and GMS did, just with different methods

[bronze turret]

Huh! That's an interesting take on the geographic rerouting of the place!

[raw pewter]

I've seen that theory somewhere before, it's a pretty good take

[sterile jacinth]

Pale king gets so much flak. We see what happens when a pale being wants control

[edgy nebula]

many sources point to karak falling before the citadel

[strange bronze]

I think it's one of the Reddit post about the water sources geography. It was interesting tbh

[fading shard]

I mean several people in the server have criticized that statement

More specifically Star

[sterile jacinth]

I agree with it. Hornet has some dialogue about pale beings and their desire to control

[fading shard]

that doesn't fit the white lady or pale king at all though

[light kelp]

Is the pale stag a real pale being or just some greater creature, not a higher being, that the green prince imagine in his memory?

[fading shard]

they are not a HIGHER being

[steep talon]

bro really said "now none to resist.. But us." And then there wre 2 others after him

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t know about white lady but PK could have been doing a very good job of resisting control

[fading shard]

but they are a greater creature

[vestal swan]

GMS didn't really seem to want to set up a kingdom, she just made fake kids and lied to them

[bronze turret]

I do recall Ari Gibson talking in an interview about HK's map creation, said they kept in mind to place all areas in a way that gives the impression of coherence to make the world seem more natural, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was intentional

[fading shard]

Wdym resisting control?

[sterile jacinth]

Pale stag is a legend. It’s unclear if it actually existed

[light kelp]

Thats what i thought, because really dont make any sense if they were, its a stag

[sterile jacinth]

I mean resisting the urge to control

[fading shard]

that could be the case

[raw pewter]

Pale King clearly wants control tho, why else would he create a Kingdom so that he could be worship? He could just wander off

[vestal swan]

PK was selling marketable plushies of himself, he was getting worshiped and people were throwing money at him in the fountains and shit, he was getting what he wanted out of it

[edgy nebula]

well, to be fair, none of the others seemed to resist

[blissful harbor]

it’s just in wyrms nature to create kingdoms

[fading shard]

Okay merketable plushies?

[edgy barn]

The idols

[raw pewter]

They are talking about the King's Idol

[fading shard]

oh those

[light kelp]

Thats the nature of pale beings, all of them wants a domain to control and be worship by it, same with Grand Mother Silk and even hornet.

[sterile jacinth]

Man pk gets so much flack when grand mother silk exists

[raw pewter]

How do we feel about the claim that the Radiance is a Pale Being? Personally I'm not for it, but just want to know y'all opinions

[blissful harbor]

WL is different cause she doesn’t care about rules or consistency

[edgy nebula]

not pale

[blissful harbor]

nah

[light kelp]

She inst, who thought that?

[fading shard]

She just wants to do it with the pale king and that's it

[blissful harbor]

she’s not even white she’s golden

[fading shard]

I hate the fact I say this but that's litrally her entire thing T_T

[steep talon]

she's a cream-beige being

[vestal swan]

Hornet isn't out to control anything either she only gets overwhelmed by that desire when her body is overflowing with new power

[raw pewter]

Some guy, I argued that the Radiance light is clearly yellowish and they argued back that just because her power isn't pale doesn't mean she isn't a Pale Being

[sterile jacinth]

I dont think rad desires control. I think she wants to be worshipped

[blissful harbor]

she says herself she feels the pull to try and grab power

[bronze turret]

She's a Higher Being, just not of the pale kind. I think it seems to go over people's heads that pale beings are called such because they're associated to the color white or a light of white color.

[steep talon]

well she also says to Eva that she doesnt want to bind her because Eva might be too powerful and overtake her. So I imagine that's what happened with GMS, she binded her and GMS overtook

[vestal swan]

Yeah but she's able to resist until she's literally overflowing with stolen power thats changing her

[blissful harbor]

pale beings are HBs who are literally pale in color, and have some form of soul connection it seems
Rad has neither unfortunately

[fading shard]

Okay what's with you and specifically mentioning that fountain

[light kelp]

Yeah, and "the Knight is the Pale King" is what he said next

[eternal sigil]

I would buy a marketable PK plushy tbqh

[sterile jacinth]

That’s what the weaver queen ending implies

[vestal swan]

I think that's the first time I've mentioned that fountain in like a year? What

[eternal sigil]

if it works on me no doubt it worked on actual Hallownesters

[raw pewter]

"But that's just a theory, a game theory!"

[fading shard]

Okay was it not you that kept mentioning it T_T

I swear I thought that was you

mb ;-;

[vestal swan]

If I'm making fun of PK I usually bring up the marketable plushies but I don't really bring up the fountain

[fading shard]

why do you even make fun of him? out of curiosity

[edgy barn]

I don't think Hornet is being honest when she says that to Eva. That obviously does not happen once Hornet actually binds her. I think she is just saying that as an excuse because she doesn't want to destroy her mind,

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder if hornet sees pk in a better light after gms

[vestal swan]

PK's a fraud

[raw pewter]

At least the fountain is more of a donation, unlike the bloody rental benches in the Underwork

[fading shard]

Why

[eternal sigil]

I think pale beings are those with an innate tie to or powers over the substance of Soul (Silk being a form of this), and they don't necessarily need to be Higher Beings to be pale. Hornet and Eva are evidence enough of this

[bronze turret]

Yeah I guess the dude you were discussing with thinks Pale Being is synonym with Higher Being when it's more like a subcategory within a category

[edgy barn]

I really doubt it.

[fading shard]

Eva is not a pale being

[sterile jacinth]

There are snail shamans who i wouldnt call pale

[steep talon]

yes. I mentioned that because the actual reason might not be bullshit made up on the spot and something that could happen

[fading shard]

and hornet is a demi god

[sterile jacinth]

Ough. Daddy issues

[blissful harbor]

pale beings being connected to soul doesn’t mean every soul user is therefore pale

[vestal swan]

Oh I'm not saying PK is the worse guy or anything, The citadel and its organized religion and your reward for work is more work and slaves is definitely a thousand times worse

WL doesn't show any soul-related anything either what?

[fading shard]

I mean the pale king is all around a pretty decent guy

[eternal sigil]

The profound cruelty of GMS and her system doesn't undo what Pale King did with Void experimentation or the mass sacrifice of Hornet's half-siblings to it; even if his methods and means become more understandable in the new light I don't think she would see him positively in the lump sum.

[fading shard]

I can't say good

[blissful harbor]

she constantly has soul particles around her, as well as her part in making kingsoul

[raw pewter]

Yeah we just need to look over the fact he genocide his own children

[sterile jacinth]

To be fair it was the only way he really knew how to fight rad and her infection

[raw pewter]

Other than that he's a swell guy

[eternal sigil]

they use pilfered soul in the manner of the Soul Sanctum scholars and Groal

[solemn hinge]

White Lady shows some (unverifiable) affinity to Soul, but we don't know for sure

[fading shard]

Again trolley problem

It's a trolley problem

[sterile jacinth]

They still have an affinity to it that groal doesnt

[vestal swan]

For like the millionth time King soul is not evidence of soul abilities especially when it represents the children and likely wasn't crafted on purpose.
Anyway soul particles? Bro those are spores

[blissful harbor]

spores???

[fading shard]

I actually agree with you weapon

[raw pewter]

Shrooms???

[blissful harbor]

you gotta be rage baiting powdered

[fading shard]

not on the spores though

[raw pewter]

Mister Mushroom???

[blissful harbor]

glowing white spores
for sure

[vestal swan]

The spores bit is an old joke, I guess you just don't remember that theory lol

[solemn hinge]

White Lady does admittedly appear similarly to Soul, and she could reasonably be related to Soul, but we don't know

[bronze turret]

True that, this is why I bring up time and again that HK and SS deal in grey morality. They easily fit into the Dark Fantasy subgenre, it's part of the subgenre's main characteristics.

[sterile jacinth]

I feel like he was doing what he thought was his only option to stop the radiance

If there was a better solution im sure he would have taken it

[fading shard]

I mean does that really fit for the pk though

Like if you look at him without comparing others to him

[solemn hinge]

And to be fair, his solution was the best one anyone knew about at the time

[fading shard]

just himself as a person you can still make a good point of him being a decent guy butterfly

[blissful harbor]

her connection is more strengthens by the other two imo
PK and Silk are heavy soul users, WL is the only missing piece

WL doesn’t really have any HB feats in general so she gets ignored as per usual

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah this is my point. Im sure he tried to justify it to himself and not get attached but he did and that caused hk to not be hollow

[raw pewter]

Mhm, he was desperate, in the end it did work, but worked way too late (Talking about the Knight)

[vestal swan]

WL makes a whole ass second appearance and still didn't show us any abilities

[fading shard]

Like listen he's by no means perfect and I find frustrating that people say he did nothing wrong now

[solemn hinge]

THK would have become not hollow regardless, it's pretty much impossible for that not to happen

[blissful harbor]

all she did godly was talk through a memory
PK fraud? more like WL fraud

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. His plan was flawed to begin with. It was a desperate grasping of straws

[steep talon]

mass reproduction and cancer like growth, ig???

[fading shard]

But like come on he's still decent of a guy

[solemn hinge]

And, again, was not a bad plan

[vestal swan]

I mean it's not really cancerlike growth she's just seemingly never going to stop growing

[solemn hinge]

Worked for a long ass time

[steep talon]

not very magical, just kinda depressing and boring

[solemn hinge]

It's kinda like... a plant

[sterile jacinth]

He did all he could. That doesnt excuse him from the horrible things he caused, but he is much better than he could have been

[solemn hinge]

I mean he didn't even cause that much horrible stuff

[fading shard]

Listen the vessel travesty he commited is pretty simple to explain it's just a trolley problem

[bronze turret]

No I totally understand what you're saying, this is what grey morality means. It's a character that cannot be narrowed down to either good or bad, it's more complicated than that. Think like Game of Thrones, best example in recent years of stories that handle grey morality.

[sterile jacinth]

Im sure it tormented him, what he did

[fading shard]

like deadass one could make that a trolley problem

[edgy nebula]

he called it his great shame and died alone in his castle trying to convince himself there was no cost too great

[solemn hinge]

"No cost too great" is (at least imo) him trying to cope

[fading shard]

I'm sure somebody did by now

[sterile jacinth]

Yah for sure

[steep talon]

yeah, theres bunch of meme trolley problems

[fading shard]

you're sure?
It's outright stated, it is several times said he felt GREAT shame and guilt over this

[blissful harbor]

the dreaded ellipsis of doubt

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah that’s my point haha

[fading shard]

even his servants in the white palace mention it in dream nail dialogue

[fading shard]

There's a lore tablet saying so

even the white lady defends him

[bronze turret]

I think Skarr was agreeing with you

[sterile jacinth]

More humanity than gms lol

[fading shard]

honestly where would you put the pale king in the morality scale if not for all the actions he did because of the infection

[limpid summit]

PK was a fine dude who did a bad thing (in a vacuum) GMS was a bad dude who did a good thing (saving Lace) that also was bad

[blissful harbor]

Silk presents herself as “more” of a god than PK, she’s literally above everyone else
PK reduced himself to bug shape and built his palace below his kingdom
TC are a bunch of poets

[solemn hinge]

Radiance was a bad dude who did a bad thing

[fading shard]

I'm never gonna let go of the fact he had free health care

[steep talon]

that's a very succinct way to put it

[fading shard]

He's the only guy to have confirmed free health care in his nation T_T

[bronze turret]

IMO, if we were to imagine morality as a slide bar, where one extreme is inherently good, and the other is inherently bad, and the middle is the neutral point, I would place him closer to the middle.

[raw pewter]

Ah the good ol' mirroring of both Pale Beings, one sacrificed his own children to save the kingdom, the other sacrificed the kingdom to save her child

[sterile jacinth]

Gms had white ward lmao

[blissful harbor]

whiteward was just the bugs being crazy tbf, she didn’t do that

[steep talon]

that's conductors, and knowing the citadel it probably wasnt free

[fading shard]

Really name one other nation with free health care

[raw pewter]

Free healthcare (Except you pay with your life instead of rosaries)

[sterile jacinth]

Ok yeah that’s fair

[fading shard]

in the hollow knight universe

[sterile jacinth]

We have only seen two

Pharloom kinda sucks lol

[fading shard]

Pharloom doesn't have free health care T_T

the whiteward was to experiment on bugs with silk

[strange bronze]

I'd also love to interpret Verdania 's fall for the same reason. It seems that there is an unknown water source in Putrified Ducts that flows through Bilewater and assumingly Verdania. We know that Bilewater environment was corrupted as the result of the Citadel's waste and fume. It makes sense that Verdania's fall was in the same time when Bilewater got polluted considering they both got impacted by the Citadel influence. The pollution water might spread to Verdania and destroyed it.

[fading shard]

which was said to be inhumane

[bronze turret]

Mine (no really, we have free health care in Brazil)

[solemn hinge]

If PK stumbled upon Pharloom instead of Hallownest, they would be living in a peak universe

[raw pewter]

Whiteward is basically Soul Sanctum but with a hospital sign

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah lol. It says sickness is sin in white ward too

[fading shard]

I said in hollow knight

[sterile jacinth]

Rats (American here 😔)

[bronze turret]

I was joking! 😂

[fading shard]

as a Polish person we have free health care too lol

[fading shard]

rip to the americans

[sterile jacinth]

We’re trying our best 😔

[raw pewter]

I too have free Healthcare (Thailand)

[bronze turret]

No kidding...

[strange bronze]

I also think that it is the reason why Green Prince left

[sterile jacinth]

Alright I got to go yall have fun

[bronze turret]

A healthcare system that makes you choose between the grave and indebting the next 3 generations of your family is asinine

[raw pewter]

Buh bye, had a fun time chatting with you about lore

[fading shard]

if I were to do so I'd put him in good

well practically good

[bronze turret]

Yeah I think I should've clarified it's in the middle point slightly towards good for me 😅

[fading shard]

If I were to count in his acts with thei nfection then I'd put him right in the middle

[fading shard]

because.. infantcide

[bronze turret]

I give him leeway because time and a again the plot gives us hints that the world of bugs does not operate by the exact moralities ours do, and Silksong further elaborates on the idea with even more customs that are completely counter to ours (like becoming food for your own brood)

[fading shard]

honestly what bad things are there to really say about the pale king

other then the infantcide

[raw pewter]

They operate in bug's logic, so of course with the youngs eating their own mother and the mother eating their own youngs, the fact is a lot of the bugs seem to have sentient and operate in their own morality

[fading shard]

and him being a horrible, tremoundesly awful father

one that could really put the title of worst dad of the decade

[edgy nebula]

pk is a great king, terrible father

[fading shard]

also great husband