sk-lore

[fathom hill]

I ate them actually

[upbeat star]

We all had a collective dream that we played silksong

[dark rune]

you are now named george

[silk dirge]

you could have like a game with a person from future pharloom

[hidden crater]

How does white lady do this root shit so well bro

[dark rune]

one time a couple years ago i had a dream about playing silksong

i also had 2 dreams i played geometry dash 2.2. before it was out

[stone herald]

i dont think hollow knights getting any prequel games though

[stone herald]

at least so far, theres really no time slot to put them in

[silk dirge]

im kinda curious how hornet would fit into that story tho bc shes probably immortal to time

[hidden seal]

I don't think they'd stick to pharloom/hallownest, there's been a bunch of other places mentioned that the game could be set in

[silk dirge]

she can die by other sources

[hidden seal]

I'm personally hoping for the place that the delicate flower/everblooms come from

[silk dirge]

but hornet will never die by age

[hidden seal]

with an even more void focused plotline

[silk dirge]

is my guess

[hidden seal]

starring lace (I pray)

[upbeat star]

Not fully, she ages but at a vastly slower rate

[dark rune]

i saw something earlier about some "fearless fox" project by tc. anyone know anything about it?

[fathom hill]

Do we know if wyrms are immortal

[stone herald]

quite possible

[fathom hill]

weavers are not I'm sure

[hidden seal]

that was trademarked years ago, and we haven't heard anything yet

though it was renewed recently afaik

[dark rune]

huh

[fathom hill]

I mean the pale king died

[dark rune]

well that might be next

[fathom hill]

But we do not know his circumstances

[hidden seal]

https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/trademarks/search/quick/result?q=team+cherry

[dark rune]

tc has a really impossible task if they make another hk game

[hidden seal]

here are team cherry's trademarks, including silksong, hk, and fearless fox

[fathom hill]

I always thought he jist withered and rotted in his palace but someone said suicide

[muted lantern]

Hey do we know if the pilgrims have any rules in their faith about drinking alchohol, like is that ever said by pilgrims in halfway house

[fathom hill]

So not really sure how we should interpret it

[dark rune]

like how do you top silksong

[hidden crater]

Why do all of naked hornets sprites look like alien sighting images

[dark rune]

i almost feel like they should go down a different route for the preservation of the series's image

[stone herald]

thats honestly a very uneven body plan like yeah wtf

[fathom hill]

First thought would be they aren't let to have pleasures, but I'm not sure since we do see pilgrims with glasses

[stone herald]

to be fair i though hollow knight would be impossible to top and then they smashed it

[hidden seal]

klein stokje

[dark rune]

hornet is an alien by definition

[fathom hill]

and the guy in there doesn't say anything abt people not buying his stuff so

[stone herald]

honestly its fine if they dont though

[fathom hill]

I'd have to see the dialogue again

[muted lantern]

so we do see them drinking nectar in halfway house?

[dark rune]

yeah

[hidden seal]

I remember seeing one

I don't know if alcohol exists in hk though, we only see "nectar" and "flea brew", which are analagous but not explicitly alcohol

we don't see any drunk bugs at least

though we see the heroin bros in the wormways

[dark rune]

a game about thk would be cool but hard to make and not sure how well it would play

[stone herald]

you think TC might ever do a genre mixup

[hidden seal]

it would have to be a prequel, and I just think that wouldn't be very interesting when there are so many open ends for the future of the world

[deep elk]

What meat are the fleas using here?
This ain't moorwig as I didn't beat it before the fleas got there.

[hidden seal]

I think its a roach

[muted lantern]

considering we get like a fancy vintage nectar for the gourmand i assume nectar is analagous to wine

[stone herald]

THK's size alone is an issue, you cant shrink them, theyre proportioned, animated look like a big character, and thatd hjust be too weird to do. Put them that big on screen and its also quite off

[hidden crater]

They're making a game about lace and at the end you get a 50 hour unskippable cutscene of hornet and lace kissing

[dark rune]

yeah since thk is massive youd either need huge areas or have it be little thk and make it really similar to hk

[hidden seal]

again, analagous, but not explicitly alcohol

[muted lantern]

sometimes i forget the fleas are carnivores, though it makes complete sense with irl context

[fathom hill]

Idk if it's shown actually, but I'm sure if i could find like screenshots from when they are pilgrims you can talk to there's stuff on the tables

[dark rune]

they could sell the cutscene alone for $20 per watch

[fathom hill]

now that I'm checking i may just have fabricated that tho, i may check later myself

[hidden crater]

Somehow a dawg deals the same damage AS THE UNMATCHED WRATH OF THE SUN

[zinc anchor]

Hey guys

[stone herald]

the knight was really on some shit

[hidden seal]

I think it's better practice to just think of bugs in hk as fantasy creatures, rather than trying to draw connections to irl equivalent bugs

[fathom hill]

but creige doesn't mention snything of it being forbidden so I'm guessing not

[zinc anchor]

I have lore questions

[dark rune]

ask

[hidden crater]

hi

[muted lantern]

Im just writing fanfic and wondering if there would be wasted pilgrims in the halfway house for narration purposes.

[fathom hill]

omgg baby hornet

hii

[dark rune]

"do you remember papa, when he sat you on his knee" ahh pose

[hidden seal]

I think you could write them as wasted

[zinc anchor]

How come the surface of pharloom is all deserty and depressing

[hidden crater]

Omg hiiii baby hornet!!!!!

[hidden seal]

it's your story afterall, you can shift a couple details ez

[fathom hill]

https://tenor.com/view/the-world-is-cruel-and-heartless-omg-kitty-hi-mconcow-asuka666-kitty-gif-15256833533546993117

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-hornet-baby-silksong-baby-hornet-gif-15520072973237246484

[fathom hill]

that but baby

[dire lynx]

it would probably be sinful to indulge like that so i doubt they would drink. at least not excessivley

[dark rune]

it's just how the surface is everywhere, might be same y level as howling cliffs

[zinc anchor]

I don't think cliffs is surface

[stone herald]

why does hornet get into this stance, its kind of a bad combat stance isnt it

[fathom hill]

I'm guessing not fertile ground to actually make civilization up there

[zinc anchor]

prob land of storms

[zinc anchor]

Nameless town

[hidden seal]

I think it is, since we see surface bugs in the quirrel comic

[stone herald]

well no ones around anymore

[muted lantern]

hornets proportions are so fucking funny, like girl your head is ginormous

[zinc anchor]

true

[deep elk]

She has her blade against GMS, aware of her but ready to strike another foe.

[zinc anchor]

also

[dark rune]

well we never see an actual surface i dont think, both games even high up are probably still underground

[zinc anchor]

why is it always night?

[fathom hill]

i mean they all dead now, dirtmouth was also in the surface but they did have stuff to keep on

[hidden seal]

my headcanon is that hornets head is actually just a mask

[zinc anchor]

we do

[deep elk]

No head shaming in this house. >: ()

[hidden seal]

since she does use mask shards to get more health

[stone herald]

oh yeah

[zinc anchor]

where would he be then

[dark rune]

the "surface" may very well be inside a cave too

[hidden seal]

she could've gotten a larger mask as she grew up too, explaining the size diff

[stone herald]

thats just canon i believe, mask maker says sth

[dark rune]

by "surface" i mean level of the nameless town

[zinc anchor]

it literally says "surface" in the game

[dark rune]

it's a shell

[hidden seal]

is it? I haven't seen it stated anywhere

[muted lantern]

i mean yeah weavers masks are larger and go around their head like a dome, the actual size of a weavers head under the mask is the size widow has. though those masks are part of their body not artificial.

[stone herald]

organically grown mask

[dark rune]

it's relative to everything else

[hidden seal]

yeah and you get the surface momento from there

[fathom hill]

Common theory back then was cuz the radiance was stolen and sealed away, but given no one in pharloom ever mentions how the sun just.. went away one day I'm guessing the "they're underground" thing to be more compelling

[twin dragon]

Its def canon as hornet says she also wears a mask, just a biological one

[hidden seal]

also I always assumed herrahs horns were part of a mask, and she just wore her weaver mask overtop

[dark rune]

the radiance is not the sun bro

[fathom hill]

is the mask biological?

[dire lynx]

as a fencer i can say, yes this is a bad combat stance. Only time you do stuff like this is to try bait your opponent into striking for a parry riposte

[fathom hill]

lil bro read again

[zinc anchor]

yes

[muted lantern]

shes built like a stick figure

[hidden seal]

where is this stated?

[zinc anchor]

she is

[hidden crater]

Shrimp posture and scoliosis 😭

[fathom hill]

smh my head

[muted lantern]

mask maker describes hornet as having a mask

[stuck berry]

you can find mort's corpse in act 3, are there any other NPCs which you can find their corpse?

[fathom hill]

❤️

[dark rune]

how?

[zinc anchor]

The boss

[muted lantern]

he just sleeping

[dire lynx]

am i cooked, i stand kinda like this

[zinc anchor]

she's the sun at the start

[dark rune]

she's in a bright dream realm

[hidden crater]

His corpse doesnt appear if you bought everything he had

[fathom hill]

the first merchant in bone bottom

[muted lantern]

romino, technically

[twin dragon]

Mask maker

[fathom hill]

you can see their corpse and their backpack

[stuck berry]

why did he display his mortussy out for predators to eat then

[twin dragon]

Not always

[fathom hill]

and they drop extra rosaries

[stuck berry]

ah true

[hidden crater]

You can also kill them FOR 55 ROSARIES!!!

[muted lantern]

hes a freak freak

[fathom hill]

Hell yeha

[twin dragon]

Pebb fucking dies NOOO

[stuck berry]

i wouldn't count this

[zinc anchor]

You can kill Skrill for 3 shell shards!

[muted lantern]

mottled skarr and architect?

[hidden crater]

Why do half the vendors in this game fucking die

[fathom hill]

also i think the dice guy too

[dark rune]

if radiance was the sun thered be a ton of light coming out of her herself

[stuck berry]

skarr yeah

[zinc anchor]

there is

[fathom hill]

Even if you get him to leave that cave you can find him further down the line dead

[hidden seal]

how would grindle get goodies otherwise?

[muted lantern]

we can also find huntresses corpse if we don't do her quest b4 act 3

[dark rune]

?

[stuck berry]

i meant the incidental characters like benjin crull pilby if you save him etc

[zinc anchor]

very bright

[hidden crater]

Greedy PIECE OF SHIT

[fathom hill]

what am i gonna fight

the sun?

[dark rune]

compare with the sun in real life

[fathom hill]

https://tenor.com/view/flash-bang-cat-gif-9228092957721715341

[dark rune]

how much is she really giving off

[zinc anchor]

Like a lightbulb

but

[twin dragon]

she's located in the dream world anyways

[muted lantern]

hey are vessels microwave safe?

[fathom hill]

me when i need to actually fight against the boss

[twin dragon]

Nobody would see that

[dark rune]

there are some light beamy things behind her but thats about it

[zinc anchor]

Guys what's the eva lore

[dire lynx]

Pebb, the bellway pilgrim, loam, pilby, lumble, huntress, the gut quest guys, shakras master

[zinc anchor]

why is she in the cage or whatever

[fathom hill]

also is lost lace just being indecipherable from her enviroment just a response from tc from people critiquing absrad

[dark rune]

artificial pale being created by weavers, failed, needs to be kept in an iron lung y thing to be kept alive

[dire lynx]

artificial god made by the weavers trying to overthrow/replace GMS, turns out shes to fragile to live outside her creation chamber

[dark rune]

thats about it

[zinc anchor]

ong the dlc will have hornet continue the weavers work on her

[dark rune]

um....

[muted lantern]

i think shed die without the tube, she seems to be very volatile in form

[dark rune]

im not gonna say why but that wont happen

[zinc anchor]

what if we made her

[muted lantern]

thats why she wants hornet to absorb her not just let her out

[hidden seal]

I wanna say it

[zinc anchor]

say it

[fathom hill]

tough world out there

[dire lynx]

salubras blessing replacement

[hidden seal]

eva dies

[dark rune]

you absorb eva at her will

[zinc anchor]

oh yeahh

[dire lynx]

she doesnt die, her conciousness joins ours

[muted lantern]

basically ego death

[hidden seal]

ahhh she dies

[zinc anchor]

lost potential for eva

[hidden crater]

If you get the weaver queen ending you have to enslave any survivors in pharloom because slavery keeps pharloom alive for some reason

[hidden seal]

this machine RUNS on the BLOOD of innocent weak SLAVES

[fathom hill]

can someone quote how hornets lil mask is biological

[dark rune]

"if hypixel has taught me anything, it's that when you have a problem the answer is slavery" -a wise man

[zinc anchor]

because pale king

[dark rune]

eva death

[zinc anchor]

wait isn't pale king a confirmed dlc

[stone herald]

by the way heres a bit of a question for the events of silksong

[dark rune]

???

[zinc anchor]

or some crap

[stone herald]

was the knight trying to enter the silk coocoon to kill GMS? why did they only just save hornet in the nick of time

what were they doing for the whole of act 3

[fathom hill]

that actually makes a lot of sense since vessels

cool I didn't know it

[hidden seal]

huh?

[muted lantern]

I remembered people tried to spoil the game during the steam crash fiasco by reading the steam achievements and telling people who the final boss was. but they ended up just trying to tell everyone the pale king is the final boss because of pale monarch LMAO

[stone herald]

thats really funny

[fathom hill]

lmao i kind of remember this

[zinc anchor]

Guys if we get pale king dlc that means we can bring eva to life again

[muted lantern]

i think if we get a pale king dlc we have to play as him through 6 hours of divorce proceedings

[zinc anchor]

lol

[stone herald]

also as one more thing to add

we're definitely getting a third game

[zinc anchor]

yes

[stone herald]

silksong ends on a "to be continued"

[dark rune]

here's an image of the dream realm btw (no radiance present)

[muted lantern]

did white lady get joint custody of the 10 billion dead babies in the divorce?

[stone herald]

i just did that and i realise that a third game is definitely happening

[fathom hill]

maybe they perceived hornets presence only after the everbloom withers

[dark rune]

??

[zinc anchor]

skrill

[fathom hill]

they went like huh its familiar so they went to check and alas ur sister

[hidden crater]

GMS describing the weavers

[stone herald]

the knight really was playing with fire holding the delicate flower

[fathom hill]

But since the everbloom repells void they couldn't perceive it before

[stone herald]

though the white lady says as such

[muted lantern]

the knight played with the delicate flower like a toddler with an electrical socket

[dire lynx]

Ermmmm, but it could just be because mr mushroom is aware of other TC games ☝️ 🤓

[hidden seal]

that's probably why it broke so fast

[muted lantern]

oh fuck u right probably lol

[hidden seal]

whenever the knight got hit a bit of void leaked out and broke the flower

[stone herald]

i dont think its why it broke, i think the delicate flower just breks because its physically delicate, as zemer says

[hidden crater]

The knight seeing hornet hold the same god damn flower except it doesnt break in 1 hit

[stone herald]

the delicate flower is just delicate

[fathom hill]

This is true

[stone herald]

thats why its the delicate flower

you say a word few times and it loses meaning "delicate"

[muted lantern]

the delicate flower is more fragile than the white ladys everbloom because zemer sucks at gardening

[hidden crater]

Should I help them

[stone herald]

theyll be fine for now

[hidden seal]

zaza is a very good swimmer, garmond is not

[hidden crater]

SENSIblublublublublublublublubublublublublu

[muted lantern]

bros drowning zaza like mario sacrifices yoshi

[stone herald]

also ir ecall something about zaza being the real brains behind the operation, but i think that got scrapped at some point

i really really like how unlike zote and Tiso in HK, zaza and garmond were played completely straight, they legitimately were courageous and competent warriors

[muted lantern]

zaza being a fully sapient bug that garmond rides around like a horse is extremely funny

[fathom hill]

zaza and garmond share the one braincell I'm sure

if they stray too much apart the braincell slips

[stone herald]

zaza being able to talk and ust choosing not to is also funny

theyre phineas and ferb

[muted lantern]

zaza fucking hates our stupid ass

[hidden crater]

It pains me so much to see zaza being sad

[muted lantern]

theres a mod that moves zaza into your house

[stone herald]

i really hope zaza is okay at the end of it all

[hidden seal]

we know that zaza is capable of speech, but doesn't talk for whatever reason

[stone herald]

zaza probably is okay at the end. Theyre also a combat veteran

[hidden seal]

zaza sings for his needolin dialogue afterall

[fathom hill]

isn't this also tied with the whole don quijote reference

[stone herald]

really? never read don quixote

[fathom hill]

I wouldn't know though haven't read it

[hidden crater]

Thats why I got it!

[muted lantern]

zaza is not on speaking terms with hornet

[hidden seal]

link?

[stone herald]

wait how do you have that little thing up there

[hidden seal]

zaza is racist 💔

[stone herald]

ok yknow what

im 100%ing rn i need to go get the bellhome upgrades

[muted lantern]

zaza just doesnt approve of hornet being racist and homophobic

[fathom hill]

Don quijote it's basically like a guy that thinks he is a medieval knight, he is a lil delulu but he has a friend that tries to put him back on earth or soemthing

[stone herald]

hornet really went and killed green prince for no reason AT ALL huh

[hidden seal]

bellhome upgrades are peak, defo buy them

[stone herald]

i have to yeah

[fathom hill]

at least what i remember from a fragment i read in school years ago

[hidden seal]

red is the only true bellhome colour

[stone herald]

whats a good act 3 farming spot

[hidden seal]

same as act 2, the grand reeds

[stone herald]

ok thanks

[hidden crater]

https://thunderstore.io/c/hollow-knight-silksong/p/fabbeyond/ZaZaInBellhome/

[hidden seal]

its just a bit slower since theres less of them

[muted lantern]

top left citadel bench right under high halls is the fastest, clear the void mass permanently and farm the three dudes

[fathom hill]

Basically garmond seems to be a reference cuz of his overtly knightly demeanor

[hidden crater]

I killed a gay dude for no reason

[stone herald]

yeah me too but why did hornet

[fathom hill]

we needed the heart in the shelf

[stone herald]

thats gross as hell, thats where you sleep and its still beating and shit

[hidden crater]

Better then having nyleths heart there

[hidden seal]

I think that through the restoration of the green prince's memory within lost verdania, hornet grants him the peace he needs to finally rest and die, I don't think we kill him directly

[hidden crater]

Nyleths heart beats the fastest according to its description right

[hidden seal]

i dont remember, but you can hear each of the hearts beat when you hover over them

so you could measure it

[fathom hill]

hornet's just evil

absolute unredeemable

[hidden crater]

It says that it beats fast so I dont think you'd want THAT in your collection

[stone herald]

having any heart beating is bad

[hidden seal]

yeah I saved the crustheart for the momento

[stone herald]

the knight is fake as hell for letting garmond die

[hidden crater]

Crust heart looks more of a dragon fruit then an actual heart

[stone herald]

if i was still controlling the knight that would not have happened

[fathom hill]

I'm sure it wasn't the void that got him though

it was the haunting

[hidden seal]

it beats really nice and deep and pairs nicely with some of the songs in the bellhome

[fathom hill]

Haunting + void sure but yknow

the void doesn't really work that way

[robust wagon]

What does the knight have to do with garmond's death...?

[hidden crater]

Prob the "why did chara do that" of silksong

[robust wagon]

Oh god no 😭

[fathom hill]

imagine playing both deltarune and silksong

like pick a struggle

fuck episodic games i want the full thing now

[hidden seal]

I need to keep playing Lisa the Painful at some point...

[hidden crater]

I should remake this but with the roaring knight as well

[past cypress]

I think the only really evil boss to do for the last heart is Nyleth

Karmelita gets to have one last battle and she seemed to be close to death anyway

Green Prince got his memories of Verdania restored and then attacked us

Khann was dead already

[onyx olive]

what exactly happens after hornet becomes queen in the act 2 ending

[past cypress]

Meanwhile with Nyleth it seems to be somewhat vague what exactly she was up to

[fathom hill]

I think karmelita is the most evil

since even hornet says that the tribe will struggle without her

[past cypress]

Yeah but she seemed to be in a pretty bad state when we got to her

[fathom hill]

They'll come around eventually but after generations

nyleth's just a statue

and we get to free Seth to go to the caravan

I mean of the three

green prince is prolly the most evil out of the four

no reason to actually kill him since we are the ones that enter his memory even if he says to leave him alone

and he does see us as intrusion if anything

[fathom hill]

i mean she's just old

[fathom hill]

probably Hornet ruling, either for good or bad we aren't sure

maybe she becomes a good ruler like her dad but her conversation with the caretaker could mean that the wyrm instinct to rule is not benevolent

or at least she doesn't see it as such

if we take it as a parallel with the sealed ending, it's supposed to be the "nothing really changed" ending

They didn't move on from their means of origin and couldn't surpass them

[slow olive]

Isnt most of the skarr already haunted anyways

[fathom hill]

They are

I think wait

[slow olive]

Gilly's statement is more so in mourning for far fields too

But hornet does say the place will bounce back it'll just take a looong while

Its a good deal imo, especially with everything damaged by voided silk

[neon sail]

With Greymoor, its obvious that it was a agricultural area at some point, and was bamboo like the wisp thicket, but was it a thicket that was cleared by the citadel to build a farm, that was later turned into what it is now, or was it developed before the citadel?

[fathom hill]

strength that sustained these caves, vital

The enviroment is also affected by the rulers death

giving how sands of karak ended up

nyleth is the only one which i have trouble understanding

[hidden seal]

in lost verdania, we can see the greenery extending past the playable area and into where greymoor woud be

I assume that part of greymoor was wisp thicket, part was verdania, and another part was an extension of shellwood

hunters march/far fields also mightve extended upwards into the centre

[neon sail]

What about craw lake? I assumed that the craws had a strong foot hold there

[hidden seal]

craw lake is probably the bit that was verdania-esque

we don't know fs if the craws took power after verdania fell or if they were already there

[neon sail]

That I understand, and I assume the thicket was the majority. But did bugs live there before the citadel or not? As in, did the Citadel clear the area for a town for farming, which later harvested silk, or did bugs create the town by themselveS?

[hidden seal]

we can only assume bugs lived there beforehand, since there were bugs living in surrounding areas beforehand

[neon sail]

IE deep docks where the citadel created, or slab where flies already existed

[hidden seal]

I don't think we know if the flies were already in the slab, we only know that their race sinned at some point and were confined to the slab alongside the penitants as punishment

we do see other fly-like bugs around the place, like the roachfeeder in sinners road

[neon sail]

I dont think thats a solid proof, as sinners road was part of Greymoor before the citadel ended the farming in Greymoor, but after the citadel existed. But yeah, overall I agree.

[muted lantern]

well it could be that its not the entire race, i think the line is that their tribe was punished, so it could just be the single tribe of broodmother that were punished, we see other types of flies like yarnaby free

[neon sail]

Also wth is the ruined chapel?

[muted lantern]

I think its just what it says on the tin, though from what culture im not sure. it seems old, and im not sure if the snails secret snail cave is a new addition

[neon sail]

do we know whether its just the shamans, or whether some husks had a religion there?

[hidden seal]

seemingly just the shamans

[muted lantern]

I don't really remember enough about the architecture to know for sure, i imagine one could determine what culture its from by comparing it to other ruins in the world.

[hidden seal]

akin to the mounds in hallownest

[muted lantern]

thats certainly likely

[hidden seal]

also iirc hornet calls it "their chapel" at some point in act 3

[muted lantern]

it is true that the snails probably didn't dig out the snailcave themselves, it was probably already part of the building

so it being of snail make is not unlikely

the snailcave is where they store the snailmobile

caretaker is snailman

[neon sail]

that tracks

[muted lantern]

oh god

is hornet batman?

orphan, born into wealth, has a billion gadgets

throws a boomerang

uses a grappling hook

hornet might be batman

[manic pewter]

does she count as a orphan bc white lady still alive right

[muted lantern]

I mean having adoptive parents doesnt make you not an orphan

i think

[stable venture]

hasn't it been proven that the fleas are babies, not dogs/puppies? Or they are dogs/puppies and rest of the flea caravan are just different castes of the same species?

[manic pewter]

Thats actually an awesome question

[fathom hill]

cue that one image of pluto and goofy but it's the fleas

[muted lantern]

they seem to be flea children

but i don't know if its ever explicitly stated

[slow olive]

Big flea must be a really big kid then

[stone herald]

i dont think hornet and the white lady even have that relationship

[muted lantern]

ye, tbf tho we find big flea in a region thats full of creatures that have been raised to extreme sizes

wait that actually leaves the question, is the flea being that big a result of the memorium? cuz if they were like bred to be giant like the massive creatures in the memorium does that mean they were doing those expiriments on fleas? a fully sapient species?

or is it just a big flea coincidentally

[slow olive]

Could be

[muted lantern]

like they caught one to preserve it because it was unique

[vague whale]

The Memorium having large creatures seems just to be a result of them living longer and better in captivity

[slow olive]

But the huge bone bugs exist even outside memorium so maybe big flea is just big

[muted lantern]

which is less of a concerning thought than selectively breeding a sapient species

[muted lantern]

the giant mossgrub is said to be bred to be larger

[hidden crater]

Hes just built like that

[muted lantern]

theres only one flea so its most likely the memorium people found a fucking huge flea and were like "guys we need to put this fucker in a zoo"

[muted lantern]

its like the enormous baby penguin at that one zoo

[fathom hill]

white lady was the raised part in that one scrapped hornet concept no

one birthed, one raised, one trained or something

[vague whale]

yeas

Herrah -> White Lady -> Vespa

[fathom hill]

yah yah

[muted lantern]

ye but dev statements arent explicitly canon iirc

[fathom hill]

given how hornet also has like white attire I'm sure she spent at least some time in the palace

[muted lantern]

certainly

[stark crane]

is it crazy to think greyroot is zotes mother

[fathom hill]

but the white lady does talk sbt her like with some distance

[muted lantern]

she lived there after the sealing

[vague whale]

Yeah. It's still pretty reasonable though

[muted lantern]

i agree

[fathom hill]

So I'm not sure if just vespa took the raising part more heavily and that's why it's scrapped

[vague whale]

We don't know for certain it was scrapped

[fathom hill]

or it's just weird blind old lady shenanigans

[vague whale]

It just didn't fully make it into the original game

[slow olive]

Red memory kinda confirms that statement tho right?

[fathom hill]

I'm sure in the same interview they said something like that no?

[vague whale]

It's even more likely to be true now with Silksong tbh

[fathom hill]

idk the exact quote though

[muted lantern]

do we think hornet considered vespa and wl her mothers?

[fathom hill]

yah totally

[vague whale]

I believe it was more along the lines of them not sure if it fully made it into the original game

[muted lantern]

like would she actually refer to them as such

[fathom hill]

so they maybe just retook it

[slow olive]

Based on how hornet interacts with her memory of white lady, it does feel like white lady was the one that raised her while Vespa trained her

[vague whale]

But I would say it certainly made it into Silksong

[fathom hill]

I'm not sure

she does say it was her mentor or something with shakra? though maybe I'm misremembering

[slow olive]

Red memory gives the vibe that hornet at least held all three in high regard

[fathom hill]

I totally made it up

Lmao

it's 4:48 am here bear with me

[slow olive]

Wouldnt be far off to assume hornet saw WL and Vespa as mother figures especially since Herrah was already asleep

[muted lantern]

on the mentor thing? no thats true ive documented that line during my making of the shakraisms doc

[fathom hill]

show it pls

[fathom hill]

oh yeah

but like if she ever mentioned it directly

[slow olive]

Hmm i dont remember hornet calling them mothers

[muted lantern]

oh actually im misremembering too this is the line and how it reads: "That was a battle well-fought, Child Wielding Needle. Your master would be proud of you.[Hornet]:The one who trained me long ago... I never called her master. Whether she would be proud of what has become of me, I cannot say.[NPC]:Nu-Hakkata! Whether she is dead or alive, have faith! Nothing a pupil does"

[vague whale]

We have no idea if Hornet would actually call either of them mother or not

[muted lantern]

she says she never called vespa her master, so i wonder what she called her?

[fathom hill]

Cold ass line

i love hornet she has the way with words

like wym hornet

[lethal burrow]

wyrm hornet????

[fathom hill]

wyrm queen hornet???

[muted lantern]

if not master, she either called vespa by her name, some title, or mother are the most likely options

[fathom hill]

never met her

[lethal burrow]

[muted lantern]

hornet is wyrm? I thought she was void?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[lethal burrow]

no she's a child

[fathom hill]

hornet is child???

hirnet wielding child

hirnet? fuck

no not fuck

[muted lantern]

hornet is 0 years old she was born the moment silksong released william pellen told me

[slow olive]

Dang cant believe a child wielded this hornet

[muted lantern]

the hornet we meet in hollow knight was always a nosk

[fathom hill]

https://tenor.com/view/emoji-wow-omg-gif-21791228

[muted lantern]

we should discuss evil skeleton

[slow olive]

Speaking of skeletons

[vague whale]

true

[slow olive]

Could the giant husks in far fields be a bunch of dead wyrms

[muted lantern]

i think its really shortsighted for the fans to believe that evil skeleton is evil

[vague whale]

No way

[lethal burrow]

your telling me a child wields this needle?

[muted lantern]

i think its relies on surface level understanding of evil skeleton to consider it evil

[muted lantern]

shakra when she meets a woman under 6'10''

[vague whale]

I call it evil as a sign of respect

[muted lantern]

fair enough, it is it's title

[fathom hill]

im very green and im mean or something

https://tenor.com/view/green-skeleton-father-destroyer-wife-killer-life-ender-calcium-gif-15452519262820706183

summary someone did but goddamn why is reddit comment search thing such ass

[muted lantern]

because its reddit

[fathom hill]

Watching some of these old interactions are so funny in perspective though

like they just straight up lied

[vague whale]

Or changed their minds lol?

[fathom hill]

imagine using reddit

[vague whale]

this isn't a lie he literally said "we may"

that's not "we will"

[slow olive]

They kept this line of thinking in silksong for sure

Those poor baby judges

[fathom hill]

haha

surely

https://tenor.com/view/funny-cat-gif-26552422

[fathom hill]

Real

same philosophy

[vague whale]

Oh my god Iselda game. You're a genius that would be amazing

[limber gull]

is pharloom supposed to be the ancestral home of the weavers or something?

[fathom hill]

yah

[woven beacon]

hk chat is dead

[fathom hill]

if only she had known

[fathom hill]

it tends to be at this hour

[fathom hill]

only problem i see it, can't be a sequel

since by ss they're prolly dead already

[vague whale]

Why not

[vague whale]

We don't know that for certain

[fathom hill]

hornet is old

[vague whale]

Hornet was old in the original game, though

[fathom hill]

its implied to have been a significant amount of time since hk

[vague whale]

No, it isn't

[fathom hill]

ysh but her worldview and demeanor have changed quite the bit

with the whole sentinel of dead kingdom thing

[vague whale]

Okay?

[fathom hill]

and how differently she expresses herself

prolly a long time since the ending

[vague whale]

I highly doubt that

[stone herald]

most of that seems to be through phrloom

[fathom hill]

oh you mean like

[vague whale]

Okay no

[fathom hill]

cuz of the change of scenery?

[vague whale]

I cannot support an entire game being a Cornifer escort mission

Iselda can be badass by herself

based

[hidden crater]

Get used to it

[fathom hill]

I mean sure it's probably up for interpretation Hallownest ain't even mentioned directly in ss

But I like to think that hallownest is nothing but dust at this point

[vague whale]

Nah

There's definitely still people there

[fathom hill]

sure bud

mmmmmmm

hell yeah i found it

[main bison]

oh damn

[fathom hill]

So it never got "completely" scrapped

just old concept that probably just was taken again with the exploration of hornet's lore

[vital ruin]

Theres a theory that in Red Memory Hornet and the White lady speaking in present tense implied shes still alive
But who actually knows

[fathom hill]

She actually may

But the white lady is a higher being so

she may outlive anything in that place

I wonder if in those years they ever just talked

[vital ruin]

Oh for sure, we dont know how long the trip took when they captured hornet to pharloom too
any mortal bug has most likely gone

[fathom hill]

or if thk ever went to visit or something

[vital ruin]

The knight? visit who?

[fathom hill]

the hollow knight

assuming they went free after the pantheon ending

[vital ruin]

ghost?

[fathom hill]

the tall one

[vital ruin]

Oh pure vessel 🤣

[fathom hill]

yahh

I mean pure vessel it's just an idealized ver of thk so I don't like to refer to them as such

i just say the knight or thk to differentiate

[molten python]

people only use pv to refer to the one in godhome yeah

[fathom hill]

yah yah

[vital ruin]

One of the endings there we saw his void form too helping ghost take out the radiance

[stone herald]

i think given the fact that they have in mind a character this far before silksong makes me think that its gonna be THK

or at least that it was going to be

[vital ruin]

Well that was the AMA after the game's release so Hornet was suppose to be another dlc

[molten python]

not THK, a different vessel

[vital ruin]

Thk release*

[stone herald]

another vessel could also work yeah

[molten python]

Zote

[stone herald]

zote is a vessel after a complete character arc

[fathom hill]

I'm quite sure by now that idea is totally scrapped though

[vital ruin]

The zote-ception

[stone herald]

well theres almost certainly going to be a 3

[fathom hill]

since silksong will be getting content for the years to come apparently

[vital ruin]

Everybody loves him for some reason
even tho it was kinda comedic for him to surive all that

[fathom hill]

And I'm not sure if we'll actually get to play as another character in silksong

[stone herald]

i hope they just shunt it into a third game again

[fathom hill]

Plus the another ip tc game thing

[stone herald]

TC was completely correct about silksong not fitting into HK

[molten python]

do we know why exactly there's beef between zote and pk?

[stone herald]

honeslty the issue with jamming more stuff into hallownest is that i feel like theres just not much eft to explore

[stone herald]

theres beef? how did the pale king survive that long with a beef of that magnitude

[molten python]

"Precept Fifty-Two: 'Beware the Jealousy of Fathers'. Fathers believe that because they created us we must serve them and never exceed their capabilities. If you wish to forge your own path, you must vanquish your father. Or simply abandon him."

[stone herald]

i mean its pretty clear why zote, a vessel would have that issue

[molten python]

also dreamnail
"I'll kill a thousand more...Will that be enough, father?"

[stone herald]

yknow rewatching the trailer for silksong im amazed that silksongs plot was like

entirely fucking finished SIX YEARS BEFORE RELEASE

thats CRUST KING KHANN AND CARMELITA IN THERE???

[molten python]

they actually changed her name

it's Karmelita now

[vital ruin]

I just saw the most Absurd Theory about zote tho
From the THK his dialogue has mentioned his a traveler from a far land
and that Hallownest reminds him of his home
And he has a dialogue something about his mother being cruel
AND his "Nail" "Life Ender" is made of wood called "Shell Wood" = also the name of the area Greyroot is found
=ZOTE is Greyroot's Son?!

[fathom hill]

that one pops up here every two days or so

[stone herald]

actually

yknow what zote legitimately has the most loose ends in the current HK universe

zoteboat is fascinating but what the hell would it even be

[fathom hill]

I've seen if zote it's supposed to be a contrast to the knight, greyroot is a contrast to the white lady

[vital ruin]

I dont even know where that started or what it means 😂

[stone herald]

zote game

[vital ruin]

In a boat?

Also Dream nail zote boss is also called = Grey Prince Zote!!

100% cannon his greyroot's child

[molten python]

it'll be interesting because it's completely different from the hk games

you can't damage any enemies

it's a survival game

[stone herald]

a lot about zote makes him seem so mysterious but hes such a loser

idk maybe hes a greyroot type parasite, but ejected from a host, which made him weak

[pine garden]

I just realized, did the Coral Kingdom dry up because the Citadel took their water that probably originated in Mount Fay towards the High Halls?

[molten python]

coral kingdom water did not originate in mount fay

[stone herald]

so he's acting like a seasoned knight because he is, but he lost his source of strength

[vital ruin]

Prime zote

[molten python]

coral kingdom is the water source

[stone herald]

prime zote vs weaverqueen + lord of shades + pale king

[pine garden]

do we know for certain? Its a pretty common thing irl for large rivers and such to originate from icy mountain tops

it would make sense since Mt Fay is directly on top of the former Coral Kingdom, and also adjacent to High Halls

[molten python]

"At water's source, and coral's heart, our lord born last to rule."

[pine garden]

I see, so the implication is that the water originated somewhere where we find the corse of CKK?

[molten python]

The Coral Tower, yeah.

[pine garden]

aight I see, the Mt Fay explanation would've been cooler but it is what it is

so we dont know the reason why the water dried up then? CKK's death?

[molten python]

Probably not.

[vital ruin]

I find it weird that its supposed to be a dried up sea
And we got mt fay on top of it

[molten python]

My guess is the Sittydel has something to do with it.

[pine garden]

honestly pretty weird if its not related to the citadel like my high halls theory

[molten python]

They used up the water from present-day Sands of Karak, then dumped the wastewater through Putrified Ducts into Bilewater.

[vital ruin]

Well the map is on 2D , would be easier if we can tell the map in 3d-ish

[pine garden]

would mean that the coral kingdom fully dried out and died on their own, regardless of GMS's, which doesn't really fit the whole theme of the game

[fathom hill]

did he really say this

[molten python]

yeah

[pine garden]

yeah he was a dedicated hater

[analog tree]

do we know why the pharloom bugs still have minds without masks? in HK there's a tablet saying that the kingdom grants minds to bugs due to pale king's presence, and a corpse in howling cliffs saying that there's no king and no mind now that they exited the kingdom, but what grants minds to pharloom bugs then?

[molten python]

not all sapient bugs got intelligence from higher beings

intelligent bugs lived in hallownest before the pale king ever arrived

[pine garden]

I assume that its normal for bugs to have minds, but maybe the bugs around Hallownest were just really dumb

[molten python]

there's two kinds of bugs

the intelligent ones, like mantis tribe, mosskin, moth tribe, etc.

and the savage ones that only live on instinct

bugs of the latter type were the ones that were enriched by the pale king

[pine garden]

yeah makes sense, and PK just ascended the savage ones to be smart boys

[molten python]

afaik GMS only gave intelligence to some pharlids

to turn them into the Weavers

unlike PK she also gave them Silk powers

[fathom hill]

is there a chance that the husks in hk are mutated skrills

I'm guessing no since we do not see skrills back at hallownest

[molten python]

anything is possible but that's unlikely, and bugs that look very similar are often unrelated

[pine garden]

oh yeah Hornet gets silk from hitting enemies cause pretty much everyone in Pharloom has silk, but Skrills are explicitly stated to be free of silk

yet you still gain silk from them

[molten python]

that's not why

she makes Silk out of Soul

[pine garden]

I see makes sense

[molten python]

she gets Soul from the enemies

only enemies you don't get Silk from are the pure void ones like void masses

[fathom hill]

they do look alike a lot

though skrills have 6 legs

Maybe same overall species but who knows

[fathom hill]

is this interpretation or is it stated

[analog tree]

it isn't just skrills, shakra also says she isn't from pharloom but you get silk from her during the fight, reinforcing that it's soul turned to silk

...though this does imply that you're stealing/diminishing her soul during the supposed friendly duel

[pine garden]

she can just rest it off its fine

[fathom hill]

shakra it's from the pharlooms edge tho no?

[pine garden]

she and her master came outside of pharloom

[fathom hill]

I'm not talking abt them though

[analog tree]

there's a text somewhere saying weavers can turn soul into silk, though i don't remember where

hornet also explicitly talks about grandma straining her soul thin to weave silk while in the void lake

[fathom hill]

Zote it's made to be deceiving in that way, idk if any other example was

[molten python]

it's not explicit but implied pretty directly, it is stated that Silk is spun from Soul, and Hornet can get Silk from enemies that don't have any Silk, and also she doesn't get Silk only from enemies that don't have Soul.

[molten python]

stated multiple times

during dialogue with the seamstress or in the silk materium entry

[analog tree]

she's pretty clearly talking about some other land, she's the only one with that greeting in pharloom

[pine garden]

I love how Shakra when first meeting Hornet calls her a baby that just barely had hatched from an egg, and Hornet doesn't even bother correcting her

[molten python]

also we meet someone who is probably from the same land as Shakra in Hallownest

[pine garden]

probably happens regularily enough to Hornet that she just doesn't bother correcting people about her age anymore

[molten python]

Hornet does correct her

[pine garden]

is it Elder Hu or whatever his name was?

[pine garden]

oh really? I dont remember that, I thought Hornet just glosses over it and Shakra continues calling her a baby

[fathom hill]

to channels one's soul within a thread

[fathom hill]

Hornet corrects her once, Shakra ignores it until Trail's End

[molten python]

yeah

[fathom hill]

Hornet never corrects her again though

[fathom hill]

in the hunters journal its said pharlooms edge

[analog tree]

might be a coincidence given it looks like hu's wearing some orange rags, while shakra and her master are wearing orange armor

[molten python]

"You have keen sight for my skill, bug, but my childhood has long since passed."

[analog tree]

it also seems like the spheres on the shoulders of the master were used as weapons, you see a few dead bugs with spheres near them on the way to her, while hu uses rings to fight

[pine garden]

oh yeah true, pretty rude from Shakra to continue calling her a baby but maybe Shakra just thinks Hornet is still a child who thinks they're an adult now

[analog tree]

though given shakra also uses rings, maybe they are related

[pine garden]

kids say all the time that they're grown up now before actually growing up

[fathom hill]

This actually could be why

maybe at trails end she just notices that hornet was truthful

but still weird imo

[analog tree]

pretty sure she just starts calling her by her name

not related to age, might still be thinking that she's a kid

[fathom hill]

Hornet also never refers to her as Shakra wielding rings

[pine garden]

its undeniably rude and presumptive of Shakra regardless of how you look at it, but its clearly not from ill intent

[fathom hill]

shakra even says something abt how in there people just bring out names freely or something

[molten python]

isn't that just a Shakra thing?

[fathom hill]

Ah definitely not

[molten python]

or maybe a Shakra tribe thing

[fathom hill]

Yeah some cultural thing

[molten python]

"In these lands names are given freely, are they not?"

[pine garden]

they're clearly based on buddhists, or taoists or some other South Asian religious group

[fathom hill]

yah yah

[pine garden]

pretty cool imo

[molten python]

Shakra also wields chakrams, a South Asian weapon. That's probably what she's named after.

[fathom hill]

I've heard that it seems to be a big influence cuz of the attire or something

[pine garden]

I honestly dont know those religions at all so I can't say, I just know that they're aesthetically based on them

[fathom hill]

I wouldn't know, I'm not buddhist or taoist

[molten python]

I don't think most Buddhists are particularly fond of combat.

Maybe at Shaolin or something.

[molten python]

I've been to a few Buddhist places, never met any warriors lol.

[pine garden]

yeah its definitely a monk thing

this type of stuff

[molten python]

Seems like some mixed South Asian influences, not Buddhism in particular. Like afaik chakrams were mostly a weapon used by the Sikhs, although others did use it.

[primal ruin]

You know what would be peak? If grimmchild became the new Grimm for an silksong dlc

[pine garden]

yeah definitely

[molten python]

Hornet meets her nephew?

[fathom hill]

This could work if the grimm troupe didn't just appear to dead kingdoms

pharloom is not really dead yet by act 3

[primal ruin]

What

[fathom hill]

but i kinda see how they could just bend the rules s bit to make it happen

[analog tree]

it depends on what do you consider as dead, hallownest also had some sane bugs left

[primal ruin]

Ohhh

[hidden seal]

it would be kinda cool, but I don't see tc wanting to rehash something they did for hk

[fathom hill]

hallownest the kingdom was absolutely nothing but dust even by hk

literally zombie city with like

[primal ruin]

Yeah but maybe if they give it a new twist

[fathom hill]

2 people in the city of tears

[molten python]

But the lands of Pharloom contain many dead kingdoms.

[hidden seal]

perhaps, but I'm not going to hold my breath

[analog tree]

was verdania called a kingdom?

[fathom hill]

they do

[pine garden]

true, Citadel might not be fully dead yet, but Verdania and Crust Kingdom are fucking dead

[hidden seal]

yeah

[primal ruin]

Wait this might be the wrong channel to ask but is the Grimmchild still alive if the Grimm group banishing is canon

[fathom hill]

Mmm they could go for the Khann guy

[pine garden]

maybe, there could've been another ritual where our baby got replaced by our grandbaby

probably not tho, would be weird for them to bring back the Grimm and its not our baby at the helm

[primal ruin]

Yeah it’s kinda unlikely

[fathom hill]

yah cuz princes

[hidden seal]

maybe it's a princedom since they have no king

[analog tree]

citadel also had no one except caretaker and last conductor till the bell got rung though

[fathom hill]

the prince was absolutely not a dom

[primal ruin]

I’m really excited on how they are gonna bring a godhome like area to silksong

“Pantheon 5” with absolute lost lace or something is gonna be crazy

[analog tree]

might just be some weaver device or whatever for collecting memories and then delving into them with elegy of the deep

[fathom hill]

the humble underworkers

[hidden seal]

abslola gonna go crazy

[analog tree]

aren't they also haunted other than twelfth architect and the guy on the treadmill?

[molten python]

Underworks is separate from the Sittydel.

[molten python]

It did, they were mostly in hiding I guess.

[fathom hill]

no?

[analog tree]

oh yeah caretaker says jubilana was there i think

[fathom hill]

i mean in the map it's the same area

[analog tree]

though i think he also says that the pilgrims came to the bell, might've not been there before it got rung

[primal ruin]

I’m already seeing that guy that gave you drifters cloak being a secret pantheon boss

[molten python]

It is not.

[hidden seal]

defo, we know she at least beat the 4th chorus on her own

[fathom hill]

Also the existence of big settlements like bellhart and bone bottom

[hidden seal]

they're part of the same superstructure, it's just got subdivided areas

[primal ruin]

Yeahhh and that when you fight 4 chorus in p5 or something that he is actually hard

[terse stump]

I feel like Hornet is much stronger than Silk
But Silk just has more silk

[fathom hill]

most of what we got in hk was the mantis, the mushrooms and dirtmouth

[hidden seal]

that would be sick asf

[fathom hill]

Ohh i totally forgot

[molten python]

They're two different areas. The subdivided areas of the Sittydel are the Choral Chambers, Cogwork Core, High Halls, and the Whispering Vaults.

[analog tree]

probably just going to replace the floor with lava like hk removing floor or replacing it with spikes

so that you need to keep bouncing on him

[hidden seal]

I mean in-universe, they are different part of the same superstructure

they're seperated on the ingame map for gameplay reasons

[fathom hill]

tbf the people in the underworks were put there after they've gone to the citadel through the gate

[primal ruin]

This is just a cool thought and this might be too hard but: Cogwork dancers and fourth chorus at the same time

[fathom hill]

So I'm guessing by how it's interconnected the underworkers are "yet to be people of the citadel"

[molten python]

Them being connected still does mean the Underworks is in the Sittydel. You can say they are part of one superstructure, but then the superstructure isn't the Sittydel, it's the combination of the Sittydel and Underworks.

[fathom hill]

so not really from the citadel? but working for it?

[analog tree]

for the sake of the "the place's dead" case that doesn't change much though, twelfth architect and loam both get killed in act 3 as well as last conductor, so that's dead enough for it to be a dead place i think

[hidden seal]

yeah theyve been deceived into thinking that their work will absolve them of their sins and allow them to ascend to the citadel

[molten python]

"Me can not rest. Us works, and Citadel breathes, and thems above do sing, and all is right. And when us works enough, thems see it... Hrrr... thems see it, and us gets us holy reward..."

[analog tree]

basically leaving just songclave as the one bunch of living bugs

[fathom hill]

i mean doesn't the troupe only appear if you do the ritual anyways

it's not like it's impossible to out them there

it's just like hallownest its a whole other level of dead compared to pharloom

[molten python]

If you light the Nightmare Lantern, yeah.

[molten python]

Hallownest is long dead, Pharloom is dying.

[fathom hill]

yah

even the ruler's still there

[primal ruin]

Isn’t dream nail needed for that (idk im just thinking)

[hidden seal]

hallownest has been dead for longer than elderbugs lifetime afterall

[analog tree]

needolin does pretty much everything dream nail does anyway

[hidden seal]

I believer the conductor and vaultkeeper are old but can still remember the weavers iirc

[fathom hill]

I can see them appearing in act 3 like huhhh the void or something

[hidden seal]

so the weavers fleeing is within living memory of a mortal bug

[primal ruin]

Good point

[fathom hill]

yah but they are fundamentally two different things

since one senses dreams and the other memories

[analog tree]

yeah but it probably wouldn't be an issue to get grimm troupe out with needolin

[fathom hill]

Mechanically it's the same but dream nail was only given by mith tribe

[analog tree]

even in hk it was seemingly in a memory of the dead red bug

[molten python]

To be fair, almost everyone is older than Elderbug. The Nailmasters, Nailsmith, the Last Stag, etc.

[fathom hill]

moth tribe aint in ss ss we know

[molten python]

Dreamnail is also related to memories.

[hidden seal]

functionally in gameplay yes, but lore-wise it doesn't necessarily show a bugs true inner thoughts, since they are actually singing/talking the dialogue, it's not a direct line into their brains like the dream nail is (they could lie or be wrong in needolin dialogue)

[fathom hill]

which

[analog tree]

yeah but point was about summoning grimm troupe, which was from hitting a corpse with dream nail

and you still can get memories out of corpses with needolin

[fathom hill]

yah but isnt the needolin memories thing more related to how the silk inside their bodies are connected to their soul

[hidden seal]

Dreamnail areas can show memories, but only as they exist in imagination or dreams. Whereas the needolin consistantly reveals actual memories.

[fathom hill]

the shadows that appear are white like the silk

idk how song reacts to silk in that way tho

why puts someone like gms to sleep or just strings people

[hidden seal]

it's a minor but important distinction IMO

[analog tree]

iirc alchemist guy and his assistant came from outside pharloom and shouldn't have silk, but the assistant still got a memory on his corpse

[molten python]

"This kingdom is full of old memories, both beautiful and grotesque. Seek them out, reveal them, and gather Essence."
"The Dream Nail glows bright... It holds over 1200 Essence. Looking into it I can see so many memories peering back at me."
"The power of the Dream Nail has fully awoken, allowing entry into certain protected memories."

[hidden seal]

it could be explained as them just starting to be affected by the haunting, but not fully taken over yet

[analog tree]

haunting seems to only go for bugs with silk in them though

[hidden seal]

the one you fight does give silk on hit afterall

though some have said that hornet is extracting soul and just converting it to silk?

[fathom hill]

Does that refer to the white defender thingy?

[primal ruin]

Had the events of hollow knight any impact on pharloom? Like the radiance infection or just the faith in radiance in general?

[analog tree]

silk on hit != has silk in shell, shakra and skrills also give silk, soul is turned to silk

[molten python]

The Needolin memories don't necessarily reflect reality, but rather what the bearer remembers, what is in their mind.

[fathom hill]

thats kind of a memory like dream

[molten python]

It's dialogue from the Seer.

[fathom hill]

ik

[hidden seal]

the dream nail areas seem to be an even further abstraction of the memories

[analog tree]

there's also a memory above cradle in nameless town, which is supposed to be free of silk due to being above pharloom

[fathom hill]

I don't remember a lot, it's that the certain protected memories?

or is it just the dream ghost guys

[molten python]

That's referring mainly to the White Palace.

[analog tree]

though it does visibly show a web but idk if that's gameplay indication "try playing needolin here" or means that someone actually put silk there

[hidden seal]

I think white defender and the white palace are the only memory areas from the dream nail? Though I might be misremembering

I don't think that the soul tyrant or the false knight dream fights are memories

zote definately isnt

[primal ruin]

That place with nkg too right

[molten python]

No.

[fathom hill]

i mean the white palace was just literally shoved into the things mind no?

[analog tree]

that one seems more like a separate place in the nightmare dream

[fathom hill]

thats why theres no palace outside of the dream

[hidden seal]

they were implanted but they are seemingly abstracted memories

(definitely abstracted because there is no possible way the actual white palace was that big)

[fathom hill]

It's not like it's a memorie recreation, it's the thing just inside

[molten python]

It was moved into the Dream Realm.

[fathom hill]

also white defender, his dreams are just reminiscing of the past s lot

[analog tree]

there's also web at the coral king which also shouldn't have had silk

so i guess it's just a memory indicator or silk just appears near memorable places on it's own

[fathom hill]

Doesn't really mean it's a memory, but rather a dream that takes form as a memory and it's shaped by the mind of the dung defender

my point stands that both are fundamentally different things

[molten python]

The whole Dream Realm thing is kinda iffy, seems to contain both dreams and memories.

[fathom hill]

can be connected in some places but their method of accessing are totally different

[primal ruin]

Now that you mention it, it would also be cool if they did something with the Nightmare Realm. Not necessarily the Grimm Troupe, but whatever else is in the Nightmare Realm.

[hidden seal]

when you dream of a real place, the details are all muddled and fuzzed, and rooms lead to places they shouldn't, I think this is the case for the memory areas in the dream realm

whereas the needolin memory areas are more like your waking memory, where everything is much clearer and you can reason out where things fall into place

[hasty light]

How does the shade lord get to pharloom at the end of the game? Does it just manifest itself from the void present in pharloom’s abyss? I find it strange how the knight randomly decides to help hornet out of nowhere

[hidden seal]

I interpreted it as the shade lord existing within and throughout the void itself

[fathom hill]

I like to think that under the hk world there's always void, so it's all interconnected

[hasty light]

But not all void is under the shade lord’s control right

[molten python]

Yeah, and I assume the Abysses are connected, it's just one Abyss.

[hidden seal]

though it is clearly a seperate entity to the void tendrils that attack hornet, otherwise it wouldn't have to actively fight them off to save her

[hidden seal]

yeah the shade lord actively fights off the other void tendrils to save hornet in the final ending

[primal ruin]

And shade lord is the knight right

[molten python]

I believe the void has to be consciously controlled.

[hidden seal]

same here, I assumed it was just a layer of the world, and would span across every kingdom

[hidden seal]

I think it's a bit ambiguous whether the shade lord is 100% just the knight, but it is at least partially the knight

[hasty light]

I mean yeah but Im not sure if it’s fully the knight’s consciousness or a mix of some other void stuff

[molten python]

Everything about the Shade Lord is vague and ambiguous.

[hidden seal]

in the true ending we see the knight flicker into the shade lord, showing that they are still connected

[hidden seal]

yeah there's not much written about them yet

we literally only have 2 cutscenes with no dialogue to go off of lol

[hasty light]

Also Im guessing the shade lord chooses what form it takes shape in the void, like it made itself look like the knight not to scare hornet or something?

[fathom hill]

it could be

[hidden seal]

oh and the godhome statue of the shade lord

[fathom hill]

though the flickering could be interpreted as take whichever ending you like best

[hidden seal]

I'm still yet to beat absrad so I don't have it yet

[fathom hill]

since the normal radiance ending we see the knight like that and we only see the shade lord in the pantheon one

[hasty light]

Im almost 100% sure it will be expanded on in future dlcs. It might even be involved in a godhome-esc dlc if that ever comes

[fathom hill]

Which tracks with tc past philosophy that every ending is canon

though that also turned out to be a lie

[primal ruin]

I also saw people talking about that the delicate flower protects beings from the void

[hidden seal]

I agree with that on a metatextual level, but I think for an in-universe lore discussion we have to take that as what hornet's pov is of the knight in that moment

[hidden seal]

undoubtedly, I hope for a 3rd game we go even deeper into void lore

[fathom hill]

ah yeah hornet does see them for a bit before passing out

[hidden seal]

a shade lord boss fight would be hype

[primal ruin]

Epic

[hasty light]

Yeah but sealed siblings and the sealed vessel endings definitely cannot be cannon

[molten python]

what tf are we even gonna do against the mf shade lord, run?

[fathom hill]

yah i said it turned out to be a lie

[heavy gyro]

I recommend you finish playing silksong before going here

[vague whale]

not really, people just loved to (and still do love to) purposely misread that statement

[fathom hill]

or just their philosophy changed in regards to that while making ss

[hidden seal]

also the regular godhome ending might not be canon since hornet wouldn'tve been able to stay in hallownest long with the void taking over

[fathom hill]

dont make me scavenge again for textual quotes

[hasty light]

Well the knight would probably try to make it a “fair” fight ‘cause it probably wouldn’t want to kill hornet

[fathom hill]

dont make me go on reddit again please

[hidden crater]

lost shakra when

[fathom hill]

not reddit

[primal ruin]

I am already spoilerd by youtube and tiktok, i dont really care. I still enjoy the game a lot

[molten python]

and how is hornet gonna damage the void?

[vague whale]

go ahead, make a fool out of yourself if you wish, but your request is fully honored, I will in no way make you do such a thing

[fathom hill]

fuuck

[hasty light]

Throwing flowers

[fathom hill]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-confused-gif-15712129875520007531

[hidden seal]

the philosophy that all endings are canon is not a lie, silksong is just set after a specific ending (ie the hollow knight ending is canon to silksong, but not canon to hollow knight)

[molten python]

yeah that's gonna resist the void and make it calm down, it won't really damage it

[hidden seal]

it's weird but I understand

[primal ruin]

Silk if it works

[hidden crater]

I saw one of the dumbest takes so far someone called nyleth and karmelita dictators 😭

[molten python]

we know it doesn't

[fathom hill]

lol

[primal ruin]

Oh

[fathom hill]

where was this said

[hidden seal]

ehhhh, maybe karmalita is?

nyleth idk

[hasty light]

Im pretty sure karmelita isn’t a queen ant or anything, just a really strong honorary warrior

[molten python]

no? she united the tribes.

[analog tree]

shade lord escape sequence

[molten python]

she is

[hidden seal]

that doesn't make her not a dictator

[primal ruin]

Do shaman spells damage the void? If so, then she needs to get shaman spells somehow in a dlc

[analog tree]

like the abyss one with lava

though that wouldn't belong in a pantheon and this isn't happening outside of one

[hidden seal]

if she's a singular ruler who holds all the power, she's a dictator by definition

[fathom hill]

i mean karmelita is referred to as the skarrsinger not the skarr queen or something

but doesnt she refer them as their children or something

[molten python]

everything not explicitly contradicted is possible of course, i just think it's unlikely

[fathom hill]

and plus its ants shes defo the queen

[hasty light]

Well in that case mantis lords were also dictators

[molten python]

"This graceful ruler once possessed skill to rival my own. At her youthful peak, her voice united all Skarr in her service."

[hidden crater]

WE GO EVEN DEEPER WE FACE THE DARK

[fathom hill]

yah yah so queen

[molten python]

"Song queen of the Skarr and their most talented warrior."

[hidden seal]

yeah?

[hasty light]

Welp I’ve never thought of it that way

[hidden seal]

assuming they don't hold regular elections or are a monarchy or something lol

[hidden crater]

https://youtube.com/shorts/2h7N4wQi1Qs?si=GWAu5HajeVXtVVhB found it

[fathom hill]

i mean if the rule was taken by force maybe

[hidden seal]

the rule doesn't have to be taken by force for it to be a dictatorship

[hasty light]

I thought they don’t exactly have full control over the tribe though, like they do most of the commanding stuff but mantises still have quite a bit of free will

[molten python]

How do you define a dictator?

[hidden crater]

-# dear god what have I done

[hidden seal]

a single ruler or small group with absolute power and control over lawmaking

[molten python]

Are monarchies also dictatorships?

[hidden seal]

often yes

[hasty light]

The US government, except it’s blue and red

[molten python]

Well yeah, then every ruler in the Hollow Knight universe is a dictator.

[hidden seal]

yep!

[analog tree]

green princes tho

[hidden seal]

I don't see any ballot boxes in the city of tears

[analog tree]

since it's 2 of them

[hidden seal]

dictatorship can be small group

but you could also call it an oligarchy if there's multiple or a group of leaders

[naive lake]

are craws bugs of birds

[molten python]

It's still a dictatorship if all the citizens willingly serve someone as the ruler?

[vague whale]

Bugs

[molten python]

Bugs.

[hidden seal]

bugs, the small ones have antennas and the bigger ones have obvious bug bodies

[vague whale]

yea

[molten python]

Bugs in the Hollow Knight universe doesn't mean the same thing as bugs in the human world.

[hidden seal]

they use fake metal beaks in the court and it's possible their normal beaks are also fake

[hidden seal]

yeah it's better to treat all the bugs as purely fantasy creatures

some parallels can be drawn between bugs and their irl inspirations but I wouldn't try to fall back on them

[hasty light]

@hidden seal some shit I found that might help with definitions

[naive lake]

i guess the beaks are their masks counterpart to normal bugs

[molten python]

Every creature in the Hollow Knight universe is considered a bug except a few like Wisps, Wraiths, etc.

[hidden seal]

where did you find this? This is the type of shit you read from websites trying to teach you how to be a good manager in the workplace

this doesn't read like an actual political resource

[molten python]

That's not really an actual political definition.

[hasty light]

Well thats why I called it some shit I found

[naive lake]

is unn a bug or a gastropod

[hasty light]

Slug

[hidden seal]

im no entomologist, do gastropods include slugs?

[naive lake]

yeah

[quick geyser]

They seems to be a slug

[hidden seal]

from an in-universe perspective, the word "bug" is used like we use the word "people", so unn would still be a bug

but irl a gastropod

I remember hearing that "bug" irl also doesnt include a bunch of stuff like arachnids aswell

which are defo bugs in hk

[naive lake]

I see, just like "people of my kingdom" it's just "bugs within my conquered walls"

[molten python]

In-universe, the only creatures described as not being bugs in Silksong are Wisps, Wraiths, automatons, and the Silk dreg-possessed husks iirc.

[hidden seal]

good info

[hasty light]

Anyways most bugs in the game aren’t really classifiable. Like the ones in city of tears and the citadel aren’t based on any irl bugs

[molten python]

Or other husks too actually, like the ones possessed by lifeblood or void.

[hidden seal]

yeah they're just generally beetle-adjacent

[fathom hill]

is unn a higher being?

[hidden seal]

believe so

[fathom hill]

higher beings are not considered bugs me think anyways

[hidden seal]

haven't read up on unn lore tbh

[fathom hill]

since hornet does say something about her not being completely bug

referencing her pale ancestry

[hidden seal]

I think the pale king is referred to as a bug? (but as opposed to the "common bugs" he rules)

the roots are not bugs actually

which includes greyroot and the white lady

[molten python]

"It went both ways with character/bug design. Sometimes we started with a specific bug in mind, like for instance Willoh was based on a crazy-looking giraffe beetle I found on google. Most characters though were designed as 'characters' first if that makes sense - we came up with their role and personalities and then designed their looks to match that."