sk-lore

[vague anvil]

art of dream nail has died out with moths

[fathom hill]

Dreams in hk were more of idealized version of these bugs

[vague anvil]

yea

[hidden crater]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-gif-23741516

[fathom hill]

Godhome in ss could be more like bug in their past prime kind of ordeal

or future prime who's to say

cue ss it's actually about time travel

[vague anvil]

another moth appears

[vague anvil]

fr

we for up Needolin
down needolin

they might do something mew

*new

[fathom hill]

something that i wish we could do with the needolin it's to actually play like the different melodies you learn

like the shakra one outside if that one scene

[vague anvil]

truee

make music in silksong

[bronze turret]

Me too, honestly! It is sad that the kickstarter for the first game happened to have a 85.000 goal that seemingly would expand upon the Abyss and add 4 new bosses (most likely within it considering it's under the tier's descriptors), but they never reached that goal. It would be a dream come true if they tried revisited the idea now that they've earned enough with their sale, the same way they revisited the idea of Bone Bottom for SS (it was supposed to be a map in HK!).

[fathom hill]

like when i got the conductors different melodies i thought you actually could but nope

[earnest monolith]

Imagine we'd get some content about Garmond's village/tribe

[fathom hill]

only in those scenes even if it's said that you learnt it

[fathom hill]

Maybe

If we get a tribes dlc shakras and garmonds could be there

But it'd be rare i think, depends on how much content you can actually get from these

[limber anvil]

Wonder lore wise how much of the power hornet would have gotten from the weaver queen ending was equivently obtained elsewhere in. Act 3. (Ie silk soar, sylphsong, shamen crest,pale nails and the 5th mask)

[vague anvil]

It didn't reach?! D:
But it would be cool fr, abyss in silksong is cool but kinda empty, ig it's supposed to feel like that as it was the same in hollow knight.
Abyss, Void and the ancient civilization is one of my favourite parts about HK lore if not the favourite

[craggy smelt]

I would love it if the Elegy of the Deep could be used to visit the Ancient Civilization
but it might take away the mystery

[fathom hill]

tc got like around 50k only from the kickstarter i think

[earnest monolith]

The chances are really slim tho since we didn't get to know Cloth's true origin either

[fathom hill]

expanded abyss is something they may be considering though

[vague anvil]

what if he's the barnacle people

[earnest monolith]

Imagine if we'd meet a tribe of SENSIMO inside Pharloom's bay

[vague anvil]

do the glitch!

[vague anvil]

FRFR

[craggy smelt]

could be the nameless village on the Surface be Garmond's? Those huts sort've look like Garmond's hat

[fathom hill]

yah pretty slim

like you'd need a motive to go there too, shakra's tribe shakra herself can't come back since it's deemed shameful in her culture(?

so not going through her

[vague anvil]

maybe.. kinda fits idk

[fathom hill]

and im sure garmonds tribe uts just all dead

[vague anvil]

OMG WAIT FR

[fathom hill]

since he says he and zaza are the last ones

[vague anvil]

the hat

[vague anvil]

nooo :(
kinda tragic, so is nameless village

[fathom hill]

I can see it but he did say his tribe fell cuz of the haunting

and up there gms can't reach

the cockroaches up there don't have trace of silk or something

[craggy smelt]

hmm
there memories suggest the Weavers lured many away

"The weaving ones beckon...
Sweet promises whispered...
From depths below...
Friends seduced...
Now only the wind..."

[vague anvil]

"promises"

[earnest monolith]

Why couldn't Garmond stay with us like the LAST stag

[fathom hill]

Plot device to make us feel regret of unleashing the void on pharloom

it's nothing when it's random nobodies but if its someone you like

it stings a bit more

[bronze turret]

imagine if it was Sherma

[vague anvil]

:(

[fathom hill]

Id crash out ngl

[vague anvil]

no.......

[earnest monolith]

I'd rather sacrifice any other npc then to kill Garmond tbh

My guy deserved better

[bronze turret]

Imagine if you started Sherma's quest, doesn't finish it, carry on into Act 3, and when you look for Sherma in Whiteward, he also becomes lost...!

[vague anvil]

bro was weak but he had the will

[vague anvil]

imagine...

that'd be quite sad

but I don't think u can go to act 3

without that sadly

[vague anvil]

(I'm not sure)

[hidden crater]

Why are you staring at me like that

[vague anvil]

LMAO

[fathom hill]

honestly dirtmouth also was suspiciously free of infection what if higher beings influence just don't reach up them

[bronze turret]

There are plots of revenge behind that searing stare

[fathom hill]

why didn't pale king just put thk in the abyss is he stupid

[vague anvil]

agree, power of surface?

[hidden crater]

Full of racist thoughts about the flies

[fathom hill]

stick man looking ass

[bronze turret]

I'd rather call it extreme prejudice!

[cobalt coyote]

Howling peaks and crystal peaks are above dirtmouth btw

[vague anvil]

Red Maiden plays
I love the ost sm

I WISH I WISH, I got kidnapped in my first playthrough...

[cobalt coyote]

Howling cliffs mb

[vague anvil]

true....

[bronze turret]

Oh dang, I can't tell if that was lucky or not

[vague anvil]

while fighting LL I was like.. wish we got to see a remix of hornet's theme 😭

[slow olive]

Mine wasnt luck i killed the first warden i saw

Kinda wish i hadn't when i learned about the slab capture that i missed

[fathom hill]

I also didn't get the slab sequence

[vague anvil]

and when I was listening to SS ost after beating the game I was like when did this play in game

[bronze turret]

Oh Gods YES

Hornet's theme deserved a reprise during the game's climax!

[fathom hill]

at least i could see it when my bf was playing so I didn't miss out on the funny

but i wanted to get kidnapped

[vague anvil]

I mean red maiden is kinda that

but I wanna see another!!!

me being greedy fr

[vague anvil]

crazy statement

[bronze turret]

If you consider the first game, but I was mostly sticking to SS alone since Red Maiden is a different rendition of her OG theme

[vague anvil]

yepp it sure is very different!!

maybe in godhome.. maybe

imagine we see hollow knight bosses (not gonna happen fs)
I was doing pantheons in HK yesterday and I was like, what if I use harpoon here

[fathom hill]

hk bosses?

zote

who invited bro to ss dawg

I hope not

[versed spruce]

Would be cool to see a mod for that ngl

[vague anvil]

LMAO

[fathom hill]

swapped kingdoms hopefully brings that as an option if anyone is willing to make it

[vague anvil]

yeaa!! Def not gonna happen in main game

[fathom hill]

Imagine fighting some of these with the knights moveset though

[vague anvil]

ikr!

I'm just excited for abyss shreak and d dark

[fathom hill]

maybe we need to give them the ledge grab move they got from that one abyss cinematic

[vague anvil]

they're broken tho

[fathom hill]

honestly wait i may see that

[vague anvil]

ohhh!

[versed spruce]

We should have a mod where hornet fights "lost hornet"

[vague anvil]

omg fr

[fathom hill]

finally void

[versed spruce]

Would be cool as a mod ngl

[vague anvil]

silksong hornet is definitely stronger than HK hornet

[fathom hill]

it's there a reason why she just forgot to parry outside of gameplay reasons

[versed spruce]

True but I mean a mod of lost hornet which is based on the hornet you see in silksong. Like an alternate version of hornet if she joined lace in the void instead of defeating lace

[fathom hill]

like i know we attribute her being weaker cuz of the cage spell thingy and the nasty fall at the beginning

[vague anvil]

dunno

[vague anvil]

omg ikr!

[versed spruce]

Maybe the cage applied some kind of a spell?

[vague anvil]

Imagine controlling lace, she's like light asf

[fathom hill]

someone said, next game you play as lace but since she is fragile she takes 3 mask dmg

[vague anvil]

LMAO yea but I don't think that's gonna happen

at least I hope not, I wanna see a new character if they do HK 3

[fathom hill]

Tc has said they apparently are planning on working on ss for the years to come so

probably not third game soon

[craggy smelt]

let the waiting for silksong content continue...

[vague anvil]

yea

[vague anvil]

;-;

[fathom hill]

also like they have said that if they make another game it will be another ip

but idk how much of that has changed since

[vague anvil]

fair enough

[versed spruce]

I kinda want there to be dlc of some kind for the aftermath of the true ending even tho ik it likely won't happen anytime soon

[fathom hill]

They could just work on ss forever

[fathom hill]

Act 4 is one of these things I'm crossing fingers for but not really that hopeful to happen

or epilogue idk

[versed spruce]

I'd just like to see more bonus content yk

[fathom hill]

I mean the dlcs are said to be big and ambitious so who knows what they're planning really

I mean boss rush is one thing, but you don't have to be ambitious for that

[fathom hill]

Fair

I do too, a i said crossing fingers

[hidden seal]

not sure if anyone has brought this up already, but I think that the stiltkin and the craws could be the same species of bug

and the pinstresses are the same species

though I sadly only have visual evidence, no direct textual evidence

[heavy gyro]

craws and stiltkin are separate

but pinstresses are likely stiltkin

[hidden seal]

there is the dead pinstress in bilewater (edit: ducts), which I think is a stiltkin, due to her location and clothing

but the blue pinstess shares many features with the craws (I can explain if you like)

these are the ideas that initially got me thinking

[hidden seal]

I think they are seperate tribes but the same species

[heavy gyro]

yeah they kinda look similar

but i dont think pinstresses can fly

she kinda just floats with her cloak like hornet

while the craws flap their wings

[hidden seal]

the craws seem to fly with their cloaks, we can't see any wings underneath (the flies are an example of bugs with actual wings)

[novel olive]

Pintress did call one of them pin-sibling, but you could call that to people in the same order as you i guess

[hidden seal]

the craws flying with their cloaks is actually another similarity to the pinstess, who also flies with her cloak (she does actually flap it to gain some airtime)

[heavy gyro]

yeah maybe you're right

craws and stillkin could be distant relatives

[hidden seal]

the only pin I still have in the theory is the craws' beaks

we see they can equip false metal beaks, but there is no direct evidence to suggest their normal beaks are also false

though there's also no evidence they aren't false, so it's a minor detail

[toxic mulch]

It'd be cool to have an act 4 that actually takes place after true ending where new problems pop up

[heavy gyro]

Their beaks do look similar to the noses of the stillkin

[hidden seal]

they do, but they are stiff rather than floppy like the stiltkin's and pinstresses

[toxic mulch]

But don't the craw work for the citadel?

[novel olive]

isnt the stillking nose a bit too long to be a beak though

[hidden seal]

wdym?

[toxic mulch]

I doubt the stilkin would work for the citadel and change so much about themselves

[hidden seal]

working for different bosses doesn't mean they can't be the same species

[novel olive]

like the stillkin trapper, look more like a trunk than a bird (?) beak that the craw usually has

[toxic mulch]

I mean the stilkin hate the citadel though so unless the split happened before then I doubt it

[hidden seal]

yeah I mentioned that the craw's beaks are still leaving a pin in the theory

we do see them with false metal beaks

so there is a chance their normal hard beaks are also false

[novel olive]

its like the discussion who is wearing mask in Hallownest lol

[hidden seal]

yeah lol

do the beaks count as masks?

[novel olive]

it might be the mask and it might be the face WHO KNOWS

[novel olive]

who is making all these false beaks

[hidden seal]

I choose to believe their normal beaks are also false, since it supports my theory :)

[toxic mulch]

I always love the image of the knight just wearing 10 masks over their shell

[versed spruce]

Yeah. I might try to 100% the game in the meantime tho

[novel olive]

doesnt it just gobble all the masks into the hollow face

[hidden seal]

I imagine crawfather has some squatcraw in some backroom smashing them out of sheetmetal or something

[toxic mulch]

Uhhh shut up I choose to believe the funnier option

[novel olive]

oh right they do have a comprehend language (the letter that invite Hornet) so I guess it wouldnt be weird if there is a beaksmith somewhere

[hidden seal]

they are pretty organised, at least enough to have a judicial system

[novel olive]

i still think its funny even if the knight just put all the mask fragments into its eyesocket

[novel olive]

right, and some of them have weapons

there is definitely a smith somewhere

although their weapons are gilded while the beak is not? doubt

[hidden seal]

could be a different metal

maybe their tool metal is different from their fashion metal

we don't make swords out of aluminium afterall

[novel olive]

could be, i just feel like it would be Pharloom style to have a gilded beak if they have the chance lol

[hidden seal]

I choose to believe the craws just have similar fashion sense and all agreed that the silver and black looks nicer with contrasting gold weapons

[toxic mulch]

The craw clearly know it would clash with the rest of their look

[novel olive]

yeah the two places are close too

wouldn't be weird if they are the same species, just have different culture

[vague whale]

What the fuck you got your Silksong map on light mode

[novel olive]

NO

[vague whale]

That's disgusting

[novel olive]

ITS ON THE INTERNET

I WOULD NEVER BETRAY MY SHADOW MODE

[toxic mulch]

I still don't really buy the theory

[vague whale]

I know but it's still disgusting

[novel olive]

IT IS

[toxic mulch]

It seems to rely on what could easily be a bunch of coincidences

[hidden seal]

yeah that's why it's a theory lol

I did say earlier that it's relying mainly on visual evidence and isn't supported by anything textual

[toxic mulch]

The one that I do believe is the bellbeast is somehow related to the grom

[hidden seal]

explain?

[novel olive]

what grom

[hidden seal]

worms in wormways

[toxic mulch]

Extremely similar designs and aren't they right next to each other in the journal?

[toxic mulch]

They both like to burrow through the land

[vague whale]

That's possible but it'd probably be distantly

[novel olive]

okay yeah i can see that

[hidden seal]

I knew they had similar colouration but I didn't know they were near eachother in the journal

[novel olive]

bell beast could be them but domesticated

[toxic mulch]

My guess is citadel mutation like the memorium

[vague whale]

I don't think they're that closely related, no

[novel olive]

like wolf with dog

they just have the same ancestor

[vague whale]

Because the Memorium just has them bigger and domesticated

[hidden seal]

this has an even weaker link than my craw/stilktin/pinstress theory but I kinda like it lol

[vague whale]

Bell Beast is not that

[toxic mulch]

Not a direct one but something like the citadel did selective breeding and experiments

[vague whale]

I agree that they're related but it's distant

[toxic mulch]

It's mainly from the extremely similar designs and similar habits

The main thing that throws a wrench in it is the eye count

[novel olive]

with needolin dialogue i guess there is a similarity? one tribe decided to live and steal while one live in hatred and violence

[hidden seal]

same colouration, same # of tail segments, different # of head segments, different # of head spikes, similar eyes but different # of them

[novel olive]

you could say the same about Herrah and Hornet

[hidden seal]

I never read the stiltkin dialogue, it does have a similar cadence

[toxic mulch]

Well hornet is more standard bug looking cuz of the pale king

She took most of her appearance from him it seems,at least anatomically

[hidden seal]

I think similarity in placement is interesting enough to consider though

small one above a big one

[toxic mulch]

Yeah to me it seems like something that happened a very long time ago but they're related imo

[novel olive]

with them next to each other in hunter jounal i dont think its a far fetched thing to say they are related in distant past

[toxic mulch]

Basically my guess is the citadel domesticated them for travel and over many years and selective breeding bell beasts are the result

[novel olive]

i guess its just domestication

like the bell beast react well to song

[hidden seal]

they're too different for it to be just domestication

[novel olive]

just look at dog and wolf!

specically, look at a chihuahua!

[toxic mulch]

That's why I say selective breeding and experiments

[hidden seal]

I think it would be more reasonable to assume that GMS did something similar to what she did to the Pharlid

[novel olive]

noooooo

noooooooooooo

[toxic mulch]

I kinda doubt that as the bell beast doesn't seem to struggle having offspring

[junior heron]

what is a memory locket actually? like its canon lore

[toxic mulch]

Also if I had to guess they're a citadel creation not GMS

[hidden seal]

we see in game that the selective breeding and experiments performed by the citadel really only made bugs larger afaik, but we do actually see GMS fully transform a creature in a cutscene

[novel olive]

i mean we have evidence of Pharloom bug use selctive breeding on other creature

like in sinner road to produce low quality meat

[hidden seal]

but again, the breeding we see from the citadel never goes to the point of a full transformation

[novel olive]

selective breeding doesnt exactly need GMS to work anyway

[novel olive]

Pharloom have a long history, they have all the time to breed a large beast to be their vehicle

[toxic mulch]

I mean the memorium was just for display this would likely be more important that they got it right

[hidden seal]

breed it bigger? Sure, but I don't see them being able to breed an extra set of eyes or change the function of a creature's legs

[toxic mulch]

It could also be that the bell beasts were in more of a middle ground between the 2 when the citadel started messing with them

[novel olive]

i mean why not...? mutation in animal are hard to predict, especially in bug logic

or HK logic

[toxic mulch]

Ug logic

They're all ugs now

[novel olive]

like Pale King died and reborn as femboi

[toxic mulch]

What

He's just a short man

[novel olive]

tiny man

anyway the wyrm has no limb or eyes and is very big

[toxic mulch]

Little baby man little baby little man

[novel olive]

bug logic

[potent agate]

So the weavers are just pharlids enhanced by gms?

[novel olive]

even the weaver look different, even pure blooded one

[hidden seal]

cutscene after first sinner

[vague whale]

oh that explains how he pulled white lady

[novel olive]

Herra and First Sinner and Widow look different

[novel olive]

MOMMA NATURE

[toxic mulch]

Yes,it's also a theory that some like herrah were created with different arachnids

[toxic mulch]

Well first sinner is explicitly from a pharlid

Widow might look like the others with her mask on

[vague whale]

Bet he could've pulled more if he just decided to be Pale Queen though

[toxic mulch]

Herrah is the only hugely different weaver design

[novel olive]

First sinner has a very large head

[hidden seal]

widow is missing her mask, but her body looks similar to first sinner and other masked weavers, no idea why herra looks so different to all the rest of her kin

[novel olive]

widow doesnt look like she has a large head

[hidden seal]

her big mask got taken away

[vague whale]

Childbirth can do that to a woman

[novel olive]

oh right the mask

[novel olive]

HAHA

[toxic mulch]

The weaver masks just seem to be big orbs for some reason

[hidden seal]

widow is probably closer to how weavers actually look without that bobblehead ass mask

[novel olive]

WAIT IT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE THAT. HERRAH GOT BIG FROM THE STRETCH MARK FROM CHILDBIRTH

[toxic mulch]

Herrah in the red memory is also much slimmer right?

[vague whale]

Yes actually though, that explains some of the changes

[hidden seal]

I don't remember her being slimmer, does someone have a screenshot?

[vague whale]

Especially since we know reproducing is hard for Weavers

[toxic mulch]

She could've overeaten for her last meal or something if it's the case

[hidden seal]

hold on theres one on the wiki

[novel olive]

i dont think so? red memory just has a full clothed herrah

the outfit save her

[hidden seal]

if we look at the sprites and compare her body to her horn spikes, she does actually seem smaller in hornet's memory

[toxic mulch]

She's also sitting down so it's not so clear

[hidden seal]

although it is hornet's memory of her

[novel olive]

maybe because she was sitting

[toxic mulch]

She does seem a bit slimmer to me tho

[vague whale]

Yea

[hidden seal]

it's foggy enough that she can't properly remember the mask, so some details may be different

hornet might be misremembering her mother's body shape

[novel olive]

i mean she probably got fat from those years dreaming away with no exercise

[toxic mulch]

She might simply be remembering her mother in a more positive light in her memory

Trying to remember herrah in her prime

[vague whale]

Wait this is obviously wrong

[novel olive]

even so in red memory she looked bigger than other weaver, which can be explained by childbirth aftermath

[vague whale]

Hornet couldn't possibly be remembering Herrah as she was before Herrah gave birth to her

[hidden seal]

yeah lol

[vague whale]

Hornet literally did not exist at that point in time lol

So Red Memory is irrelevant to this

[novel olive]

Although, my head canon is that Herrah wasn't wearing a mask in Red Memory, because she was alone with Hornet. The mask we see in HK might be one given by Pale King to do the Dreamers job

[toxic mulch]

That's why I think if anything she became larger after hornets birth for either a last meal or in case she could've starved as a dreamer or something

[hidden seal]

an interesting idea, though it doesn't have any evidence vs hornet just not remembering her mother clearly

[novel olive]

but if its just HK mask then she clearly see it everyday guarding the black egg and Hallownest

she cannot just forget that

[hidden seal]

what is interesting to consider is that the shape and colouration of herrah's abdomen is vastly different to the other weavers, who are pure black bodied

[toxic mulch]

The reason the mask is so blurry in hornets memory is cuz hornet can't remember herrahs real face,she only sees the dreamer mask in its place

[novel olive]

so its either Herrah's weaver mask or her true face

[toxic mulch]

Herrahs head does look closer to widows tho doesn't it? Just with the added horns

[novel olive]

yeas, she has more time growing up seeing her mother's mask on the black egg than her actual time with Herrah anyway

[hidden seal]

I think it's wrong to say that as a statement, since it's speculation afterall. But it is true that she would be able to remember the mask on the black egg, so I'm leaning more towards the real face theory now

[toxic mulch]

Well also as I just brought up,herrahs head shape looks kinda like widows,so perhaps weavers heads look more like that without masks

[novel olive]

for reference

[hidden seal]

we see 2 different kinds of pharlids in-game, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume there could be more types, I think it's plausible that there were multiple different kinds of weavers

[vague whale]

Most certainly yeah

[hidden seal]

we can't see widows exact head shape due to the cloth, but it is proportioned closer to herrahs than the regular weaver mask is (though herrah has both the veil and the mask making her head seem larger aswell)

[toxic mulch]

Yeah,some people have brought up the idea herrah could be from a drapemite or something

[novel olive]

Ah so this could explain Bell Beast and Worm link

[hidden seal]

not sure I 100% believe this, since I don't think drapemites can create silk, and they have different eyes to the pharlids

the cloth the drapemites are covered in is described as a "pelt"

which doesn't line up with any weavers we see, who are all hairless

[vague whale]

Herrah is definitely not from a drapemite, but from a kind of pharlid we haven't seen is definitely a possibility

[hidden seal]

though there is still no substantiated explanation for any of the specific anatomical differences between the beast and the worms yet, whereas the pharlids have a shared name and have far fewer differences

[novel olive]

Worms and Bell Beast have more similarity than Herrah and Weavers

The name doesnt mean anything, like dog and wolf dont event share anything

[hidden seal]

herrah and the weavers have a substantiated link, whereas the worms and beast do not

[vague whale]

Yeah, we know for a fact that Herrah is a Weaver

Groms and Bell Beast being connected is at best a headcanon for now

[novel olive]

I mean visual

[hidden seal]

visual similarities are not substantial evidence I'm afraid

[novel olive]

they look similar but yeah there is no actual info on it

[hidden seal]

even though I like the beast/worm theory, until we get textual evidence we shouldn't try to make it out to be more than just a headcanon

[wintry flame]

drapemites are mites though

[daring beacon]

I swear in the original game it was implied that herrah and the deepnest spiders were different to the weavers

Is the weavenest in deepnest built by weavers who moved there later?

Its definitely separate to herrah and the distant village

[toxic mulch]

That's true,it's just something I've heard her be compared to

Is anything else in pharloom explicitly called an arachnid other than the pharlids?

[limber anvil]

Wonder lore wise how much of the power hornet would have gotten from the weaver queen ending was equivently obtained elsewhere in. Act 3. (Ie silk soar, sylphsong, shamen crest,pale nails and the 5th mask)

[hidden seal]

while talking to hornet, widow (another weaver of course) explicitly calls herrah a weaver

[limber anvil]

Nope herra was the queen of the weavers

[royal elbow]

I understand where the misunderstanding comes from though.
Herrah was referred to as a common beast compared to her husband ( the late king )
So I assumed her husband was a weaver and Herrah was one of the stalking devout type spider. Midwife is probably the same kind of spider as the stalking devouts.

[steep talon]

There are no male weavers

[hidden seal]

that's part of the misunderstanding in question

[steep talon]

Most likely the husband was a devout, and weavers were later immigrants with Herrah

[frank dove]

Makes it sound like widow did not try to flee, but the cages in the cradle make it sound otherwise

[royal elbow]

Well this was like pre-Silksong. I am aware of that now.

[frank dove]

Assuming she was the one 'staked to service'

Like the pins on her back

Also makes it sound like wyrm fled

[hidden seal]

she could be, but that would be pure speculation

"those who dared to flee" is referring to the weavers, it's a new sentence

[frank dove]

I don't see any others staked to service

[hidden seal]

that is true, but it is still speculation

[frank dove]

Yes ik that doesn't change anything

[frank dove]

ig

[steep talon]

Well "staked to service" line is from cradle, we don't see any weavers that went to cradle. Probably means gms absorbed them or something

[hidden seal]

I don't have any save files in act 2 rn, can someone screenshot the text from the cages in the cradle?

wiki doesnt have them yet afaik

I don't remember exactly what they all say

[frank dove]

All weavers that were captured went to cradle

[steep talon]

Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, frail with age.
Tracked and taken in Sandsea Waste.
Seven Choristors, nine Envoys lost to task.

Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, mortally wounded.
Tracked and taken in the Blackbarrens.
Four Choristors, one Reed lost to task.

Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service.
Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel.
Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task.

In wiki they are called "Lore tablets"

[frank dove]

I assume the weak dying ones it talked about were absorbed and 'staked to service' is widow who literally has stakes in her back and is serving gms

[hidden seal]

hmm, it seems like "staked to service" is referring to the state they were found in

since "mortally wounded" and especially "frail with age" don't really sound like punishments

[steep talon]

Weak and dying? There is a mention of that but it's in whiteward, and it's about regular bugs

[royal elbow]

Widow might have been loyal to GMS all along and the other weavers punished her for it.

[frank dove]

Ohhhhhhh probably

[frank dove]

I mean by mortally wounded and frail with age

[royal elbow]

I think Widow is full weaver.

[hidden seal]

thanks btw

[steep talon]

Yee

[hidden seal]

yeah

[frank dove]

Yes I think that is most likely now

[frank dove]

She looks like one now that I think about it

[hidden seal]

she doesn't strike me as a "quarter part" given her knowledge of history

[frank dove]

I never processed what they looked like normally but without mask

[royal elbow]

Interesting how the weaver was frail with age and still killed 16 people.

[frank dove]

Wait no first sinners dress thing starts at shoulders

[hidden seal]

that's a weaver for you

[royal elbow]

Unless they died while tracking her.

[frank dove]

Widow does not look normal

[steep talon]

Yee, Hornet who is half weaver doesn't really look like one. The only weaver characteristic is ability to make silk

[hidden seal]

it does say "lost to task", though I doubt the otherwise capable choristers would die to any old bugs

[frank dove]

Why does widow's dress thing go from head to shoulders instead of shoulders and down

[royal elbow]

The Siblings also don't look like trees at all. So it seems like the pale king just has very strong genetics.

[royal elbow]

She's wearing cloth over her mutilated head.

[hidden seal]

because its not a dress

[steep talon]

Kinda funny that Hornet was tracked by a "full chamber" whatever that means. Prolly like 30-40 bugs and only 4 survived lol

[frank dove]

'Sandsea wastes' sounds dangerous

[frank dove]

Oh 🤔

[hidden seal]

she got her mask forcibly removed iirc

though I'm just saying what I've heard other ppls say, I don't know where this is stated ingame

[royal elbow]

First sinner actually weaves her dress from silk at the start of battle. Widow can't do that anymore.

[frank dove]

How do they know she is the last of her line

[royal elbow]

Hunters journal.

[steep talon]

Her journal entry from hornet

[frank dove]

Didn't she literally say she had mates in her past in journal?

[hidden seal]

yeah we only see widow controlling gms' silk

[frank dove]

Ahhh true

[royal elbow]

Yes. In the Great Conchfly entry.

[hidden seal]

yeah in the entry for the great conchflies

[steep talon]

She does, but that wouldn't imply she had children. Just that she had romantic interest

[frank dove]

Ah

[steep talon]

This idk. When it's some GMS bullshit but you can't prove it

[hidden seal]

it doesn't necessarily imply she had children, but it opens the possibility (though it's likely she would've inherited the weavers low fertility)

[frank dove]

How does she know where all these weavers are when she is asleep and can't reach that far anyway

[steep talon]

Well we don't need speculate. Game literally says last of their line for Hornet

[hidden seal]

she did create them and is basically a god

[frank dove]

Weak god

[hidden seal]

where do we see this?

[steep talon]

Why wouldn't she be able to reach that far? String can go pretty far

[steep talon]

Decree of the Citadel, dirty and worn.

"Full Chamber to the kingdom of the White Wyrm. Claim the Weaver, in half part. Last of their line. Sensed strong with Silk.

Resistance anticipated. Quell with rune cage."

from choral commandment

[hidden seal]

hornet's journal entry for the surface bugs speculates that the silk can only go downwards, so it might not be able to make it to other kingdoms

[frank dove]

She has limited influence even in lower areas of pharloom

The whole point of the cut ending is that after absorbing hornet she has a larger range and reaches bugs in the wastes

[royal elbow]

So she can likely still sense weavers everywhere, interesting.

[steep talon]

Yee, but that why would hallownest be above pharloom, that's never stated is all. It could go either way

[hidden seal]

I hope this ending is added eventually (or is actually possible, and we just havent figured out how to get it yet)

[hidden seal]

it is blocked by the ground, and the silk wouldn't be able to travel across the surface

[steep talon]

It's almost been 2 months. We probably would have figured it out just from datamining, which is how we even know it exists

[royal elbow]

Considering the location of the lake of Void in both kingdoms, Hallownest is probably located deeper, assuming the voids depth is the same everywhere.

[frank dove]

Maybe you have to beat gms without unlocking any weaver skills

Wait is that possible

[hidden seal]

no lol, you need wall climb to even get to the chamber

[frank dove]

Maybe if you get ascendants grip before wall climb

Or scuttlebrace lets you climb walls

[steep talon]

The way to hallownest from pharloom, or at least where Hornet was brought from is in blasted steps. So strings could go through there

[hidden seal]

you need wall climb to get needolin, so the community would need to find a skip to get to widow sans wall climb

you need needolin to get past both the gate and the mist, and ascendants grip and scuttlebrace are both in act 2

[hidden seal]

this is true

[royal elbow]

I wonder why they took her across the bridge to Shellwood. Did they plan on taking the bellway?

[hidden seal]

I have been wondering how the pilgrims get to bone bottom, since the only paths into the kingdom we see are blasted steps and the surface (they're defo not coming through the surface lol)

[steep talon]

Yep, that's how they used to travel. On gilded vessels, or so some bug says

[royal elbow]

The pilgrims are probably born in towns/villages in Pharloom, just ones we don't see because they are located somewhere along the 3rd dimension.

[hidden seal]

I guess we do know that garmond's village is in pharloom, since it's described as having fallen to the silken curse iirc

[royal elbow]

Bone bottom seems to be in a huge cavern, if you look at the background.

[steep talon]

Yee. Also shakras tribe on outskirts of pharloom, or so she says

So there's prolly just bunch of towns adjacent to pharloom for some reason

[royal elbow]

We only get to visit a vertical slice of the whole kingdom. There could be whole different areas, we don't hear about.

[hidden seal]

I think I missed this dialogue, I had assumed their tribe were just travellers by nature, and her master just went to pharloom for shits n giggles

[steep talon]

I guess making city in wastes is pretty brutal

[hidden seal]

though I'm pr sure the "slice" we play in isn't really 2d, that's just an abstraction for gameplay purposes

[royal elbow]

Shakras tribe is from outside.
She says "in this land names are given freely" implying she's not from here. She also says that she'll never be able to return, as leaving means a permanent banishment.

[hidden seal]

I'd always assumed doors between rooms could possibly be at an angle, so the real shape of the kingdom wouldn't be exactly like we see on the in game map

[royal elbow]

It doesn't have to be a perfect 2d slice, but there are doors leading into the background. I am just saying. Pharloom can have many locations we have not visited.

[hidden seal]

her hunters journal entry does say pharlooms edge

[steep talon]

"Warrior cartographer of a tribe from Pharloom's edge." from journal

"I shall not return, Hornet Wielding Needle... I cannot. To leave my tribe's nest-plains, that journey has only one direction." she's not banished, it's just their way of life, probably

[hidden seal]

it says "from" not "past", so it can't be that far away

[royal elbow]

Ok, so they are close to the edge. Interesting. Probably just out of reach for us then.

[hidden seal]

"that journey has only one direction" IMO implies a sort of soft-banishment

[steep talon]

yee, there's bunch of these weirdo towns on the edges of pharloom. I hope one day my goat pharoom bay returns, but it's always there in my heart

[hidden seal]

like it's their culture that they leave eventually but shouldn't ever return

[royal elbow]

Plains is interesting. So probably an openish area.

[hidden seal]

past the blasted steps I imagine, though we find her first in the marrow

so another mysterious town somehow connecting to bone bottom

[royal elbow]

Maybe her master just entered and yeeted themselves down the bridge.

[steep talon]

wouldnt be surprising

[royal elbow]

They basically went everywhere that's not inside the citadel.

[hidden seal]

I really hope we get a new area that goes to the left of bone bottom to explain where the pilgrims are coming from, I understand the 3d background explanation but I think it's just a bit of a weak design choice

[steep talon]

Yee, could be cool

After my goat pharloom bay makes it's glorious return

[royal elbow]

Pilgrims seem to be descendants of citadel bugs. They have the silken affliction passed down the bloodline.
Maybe raising kids inside of the citadel was not permitted?

[hidden seal]

did we get anything about pharloom bay apart from the one clip in the trailer with the sea snail dude?

[royal elbow]

So they leave and raise their children, so the children have to go on the pilgrimage themselves eventually.

[steep talon]

Some text relating to it was changed in some beta branch. So it's 100% it will return, but I'm hopeful

[royal elbow]

The plasmium researcher talks about saltwater at the kingdoms edge.

[hidden seal]

I don't think the silk curse is passed down, since it acts more like a parasite than anything else

[hidden seal]

interesting

[steep talon]

I think Hornet says to caretaker that it's passed down to children

[novel olive]

the silk curse did get passed down, especially in the citadel

[royal elbow]

Caretaker dialogue.

Have you done it yet, bellringer? Wriggled deep? Discovered the depths of obsession that brought this place so low?

Hornet: If you speak of this Citadel and its Silk, Caretaker, then yes, I now know the start of it.
Hornet: In the ward down below, I saw it clear, the hollowed husks, and the many torturous implements... machines to instill a bug with thread, that would see their life extended.
Aye! That's it, in part! But there's more scale to it than all that. Just think of'em greedily shoving the Silk into their shells, the madness that overcame them, eternal life for mortal bugs! Then think on how long it's all gone on...
Hornet: ...The children born of them, and all the pilgrims after... The Silk has seeded deep into this kingdom's shells, generations deep...
Hornet: No wonder Pharloom's bugs proved such easy prey for that haunted thread. It had only to seek for itself to reach them.
Ho ho! Now you're seein' it, bellringer! These poor pilgrims, all born bound to the cruel system of our world, now stricken in its new cursed web.
You at least are free from it. And free to shake it all up... if'n that's your choosing.

[novel olive]

it made the bugs there more easily to succumb to the thread

but that doesnt mean bug outside cant get haunted by the thread, its just the city born are more vulnerable

[steep talon]

And every wild bug that eats citadel bugs

[novel olive]

so the whole city was cursed, but not every pilgrim outside got it (like Sherma)

[novel olive]

.... yeah probably

[hidden seal]

I think it's implying that all pharloom bugs have some silk inside of them, but it just needs to be connected to the greater web first

[royal elbow]

I don't think you are born in the citadel.
The children have to take the pilgrimage themselves. So you have to leave before having children. That would be my assumption.

[hidden seal]

we do see uninfected pilgrims who are undoubtedly from the citadel in songclave

[steep talon]

That's a good theory

[novel olive]

"easy prey" isnt that prefer to the bug that was surgery implant silk inside their body?

hmm

i guess that kinda explain why the story of citadel still stay strong

the children got sent out with stories of their ancestor

althought I never see any text indicate that

[royal elbow]

If people never returned from the citadel, people would stop going.

There would be no stories about it.

[novel olive]

i thought they were just pilgim that come after Hornet open the gate or sth

[hidden seal]

Gave this a reread, "the children born of them" seems to be referring to "them" as the ones who "greedily [shoved] - silk into their shells". Though "born bound" does point to the children being born haunted rather than just being born with silk.

[hidden seal]

it wouldn't explain why they had the white garb

[novel olive]

right, not everyone got haunted

oh right like Trobbio, but I doubt he got implanted

[steep talon]

Not everyone became immortal, and so some are unnafected by haunting

At least that's my theory

[hidden seal]

I don't think the silk grants immortality, just extended life so long as you keep using it

we see the conductor (forget his name) nearly at the end of his life and subsisting off a relatively large amount of silk (he will presumably die when it runs out)

[steep talon]

Caretaker says immortal life for mortal bugs. But I get whatcha mean.

[novel olive]

what if the conductor dont take that silk the brutal way like the other bugs? he just using it like suplement

[hidden seal]

I believe that he is saying the "eternal life" is the "madness that overcame them"

[royal elbow]

There's just not enough silk left to sustain the population.
When you arrive everyone is dead. Only after speaking to lace they come back to life.

[novel olive]

so the effect is not immortal

[hidden seal]

when hornet makes her own statement she just says "extended"

[hidden seal]

you do see the threads of gms coming down to reanimate the bodies, it could be providing them with more silk and life simultaneously

[royal elbow]

As long as you get enough Silk you can probably hold off or even reverse aging. With the weavers gone silk became super rare.

They had to recycle silk over and over again.

[steep talon]

Yee, although this one is from Hornet. But yeah, not immortality then, more like elves than vampries

[hidden seal]

I don't think that the citadel would've resorted to soul extraction if the silk granted true immortality

[hidden seal]

oh mb I misread

[novel olive]

I assumed the sick and frail got the soul extraction treatment, since immortality doesn't cover good health, but yeah they were all dead before GMS reanimated them to kill Hornet

[steep talon]

I read it as sick and frail got experimented on with silk. And then they perfected the silk shoving to become long lived

[novel olive]

wait is the soul extraction refering to the one where they turn bugs into lumarflies

[hidden seal]

perhaps both, that piece of lore is in whiteward, and they have both the soul extractor and silk injectors in there

[hidden seal]

yeah

[novel olive]

yeah okay, that's what I mean

[hidden seal]

we also see these soul fly canisters in other places, I remember them being scattered around in the architect's room, it would be interesting if someone could catalogue all the locations they can be found in. I imagine it could give insight into where these souls were going apart from the architects' automatons

[novel olive]

dont they appear everywhere there's a lamp, like in HK...?

ceiling lamp things

[hidden seal]

I do remember seeing some in street lamps. I'm more interested in the empty canisters, since those mean the flies were transported there for whatever reason

[midnight reef]

The Silkflies power the robots of the Cogwork core

[novel olive]

the mist

[hidden seal]

true...

[novel olive]

i guess if bug died a lot there's a chance the lumarflies would naturally be born

[hidden seal]

I wonder if this is implying that the wraiths have a connection to the flies? I haven't read any of their lore so if there is already one idk

[toxic mulch]

Hence the dregcatchers

[toxic mulch]

The wraiths are apparently beings made from silk in some way? At least that's what I think their journal entry says

[hidden seal]

I'm not sure about this, since we see LOTS of bugs die in silksong

[hidden seal]

yeah you're right

[toxic mulch]

Projection of another's will? Who's though?

[hidden seal]

phantom, presumably

the wraiths do look a lot like them

[toxic mulch]

Probably

[novel olive]

in special, mystic place? T_T

ah right

[novel olive]

Lace can control the flies, so maybe they were Phantom pet too

[toxic mulch]

I like the head canon that lace gave phantom their mask

[hidden seal]

this is a good idea

[novel olive]

they hear music and fly back to their master

which is the organ room

[hidden seal]

I theorise that the flies are naturally controlled by music

[novel olive]

well the flies were past pilgims, whose past religion was about songs and musics

[hidden seal]

lace is a orchestra conductor, phantom plays the organ, hornet plays the strings

[toxic mulch]

That could be how the automatons were controlled to some extent,all the bell ringings could be specified orders for them

[novel olive]

ahhh the lore tablet about at seventh toll sth sth?

[toxic mulch]

Like there are multiple lore tablet things giving instructions

[hidden seal]

iirc it's implied/somewhat stated that the musical aspect of the religion was created by the weavers to help seal gms

[toxic mulch]

Makes sense,kinda like a magical lullaby almost

[hidden seal]

though it seems to apply to the mortal bugs aswell, since we see one of those tablets in deep docks just before the lace fight

[toxic mulch]

It could be a thing of the automatons will automatically do the orders while the normal bugs just follow it

[hidden seal]

that's a solid idea, I was thinking the same

[toxic mulch]

Is it explained what the purpose of mining Flintstone was?

[hidden seal]

I don't remember, it might be written in the materium entry

[toxic mulch]

No the materium entry just says what it is

I'm also missing the couriers swag entry and it irritates me,I am NOT going to fleatopia for 1 materium entry

[hidden seal]

at the very least we know that the flintstone was used to create the flintslate

[toxic mulch]

True

[hidden seal]

you can get the swag entry for any of the courier missions, I did songclave act 3 iirc

[toxic mulch]

I did the survivors camp one and didn't get it

[hidden seal]

ah rip

[toxic mulch]

It seems like that one specifically is bugged and since I've already done the eye and lacquer they won't change them again

[hidden seal]

I wouldn't wanna go through putrified ducts with a delivery either tbh 😭

[toxic mulch]

Songclave I can do but I don't think I'd survive ducts

All that I've got left in the game is that materium entry,Seth's scores,and LL

[hidden seal]

I'm still yet to get the one for the lacquer

[toxic mulch]

The lacquer wasn't too hard for me

I just took it safe with cogflies

[hidden seal]

how many respawning enemies are in the way through the slab?

iirc theres a couple small flies and a penitant at least

unless those are skipped by opening the apostate shortcut (havent checked)

[toxic mulch]

You don't have to interact with any slab enemies for lacquer

You just go get to the tall room,go left and down into the bellway to Mt fay

[hidden seal]

ahh there is info in the entry for flintstone but not flintgem

[toxic mulch]

Ah

[ornate forge]

My theory is the weavers originally sung and made the music but after a time it became tiresome so they created the religion and the bells, all of it so they didn't have to do it anymore.

So they could plan their escape

[hidden seal]

this is a good theory, we see lots of weavers playing music in the game

[ornate forge]

I mean it makes sense. Otherwise what's the fucking point of the needolin

[hidden seal]

plus the rune harps and lore harps

[toxic mulch]

I think it was both a combination of them getting tired of it and knowing they couldnt keep GMS sealed forever

They decided to flee while they still had ample time

[hidden seal]

this was my understanding

[toxic mulch]

They knew the seal wasn't gonna be permanent

[ornate forge]

Also the fact they're not a monolith should be taken into account

Most fled but some stayed waiting to be rescued

[hidden seal]

widow especially still sided with gms

and there were enough weavers staying in pharloom to give us all the shrines afterall

I wonder if the conductors took power immediately, or if the remaining weavers held their status for some time

[torn meteor]

Are the black parts on Lace's and Phantom's body explained? They look like GMS body, but Lace is described as born entirely of thread, so is it also silk, but black and shaped?

[hidden seal]

on phantom, the journal says they has been stained by the constant smog, but for lace idk

it could be dye

or even a black mask on lace's part (we see phantom with their own mask afterall)

[ornate forge]

Depending on the wiki or explanation you read... weavers find out the truth and turn on GMS imprisoning her. They take power. They then set up the religion the citadel all of it bait pilgrims into worshipping and singing to keep her asleep. They then retreat to their weavenests and research how to permanently destroy her. That's where they do experiments like Ava for example etc etc. Having come to the conclusion they are unable to kill her they make plans to leave and this is where a split happens. Some stay but most leave and full control is given over to the Conductors etc.

[hidden seal]

I'm not sure if it's clear if control was given to the conductors, or if they took it

[torn meteor]

Phantom's head seems to be deformed the same way GMS's gets when binding her, that's why I think it's the same thing. Maybe the black part is just a dead puppet, controlled by the silk wrapped around it?

[hidden seal]

either way it could be "claimed greedily", but both explanations are equally plausible

[hidden seal]

we see gms' arm (including the black bit) disappear completely when claiming pale nails,

[ornate forge]

I mean if you offer someone something they can greedily accept it. As opposed to being humble and only accepting it when insisted upon.

[torn meteor]

I think that Phantom lost her entire face at some point so Lace gave her a part her own mask, that's why she's missing the part that Phantom has

[hidden seal]

like I said, both explanations are equally plausible IMO

[hidden seal]

I like this idea, where was this hinted/mentioned?

[ornate forge]

Did the Conductors know the truth about the Weavers origins? How GMS was locked up?

[hidden seal]

I don't think they know the weavers came from pharlids (even the weavers didnt know for a time), they may have known that gms was locked up though

the pontiff seems to know at least

[torn meteor]

Still could be just a dead puppet, anything can disappear after binding, even the chorus' head after getting the Architect crest

[hidden seal]

true

[novel olive]

if there is a dead puppet why would Hornet and others say Lace is a being of "pure" silk thou

[hidden seal]

I'm still skeptical because of the lack of direct evidence, iirc there's no actual explanation for the black bits on gms/lace/phantom in game

I think phantom is supposed to look dirty and frayed though

[novel olive]

i guess there might be black thread, for some aethetis reason

[hidden seal]

it could be naturally black or dyed

[torn meteor]

The shape of the mask is similar and the needolin dialogue in the Exhaust Organ shows that Lace visited Phantom at some point, likely when she was in a poor condition

[hidden seal]

we don't see black thread in game, but that could just be for gameplay reasons (so theres no confusing it with the void silk)

[hidden seal]

these are pretty loose connections, they may just have similar masks/faces because they are sisters

[novel olive]

maybe Lace started dyed her face/wear a cosmetic mask since people keep confusing her back to front

ah

[dusky bay]

How is second sentinel not needed for act 3
Bec
Like how the fucking hell will songclave survive in act3 without her
Like you telling me I need shakra to save bellhert
But don't need second sentinel to save songclave-

[novel olive]

so I recheck the Lost Lace battle

when GMS gave all her silk to Hornet, her black bit shined and turn to white

[ornate forge]

I wish I had the mental health of the fleas

[novel olive]

so I guess it is white thread and got dyed so people would know where their faces are

[ornate forge]

End of the world? Fuck it we're gonna ball and have a circus fair thing before we die!

[novel olive]

I was hearing someone said Second Sentinel would save Sherma in Whiteward if Hornet didn't, but I guess it wasn't true?

[dusky bay]

The whiteward quest is forced to do silk and soul
But second sentinel isn't
You don't need to turn her on to enter act3
Which is confusing since songclave would be dead by then since no one would protect it

[hidden seal]

yeah pr sure shermas just down there until you save him

[novel olive]

maybe second sentinel is just useless after all

---maybe they saved a few songclave resident but not affecting much at a large picture

[dusky bay]

She protects songclave from the enemies

[novel olive]

there were a few bugs said they were saved by her, yeah

[dusky bay]

But what I don't understand is why it's not needed to start act3 like bellhert needing shakra to protect it

So it's just
Wat

[novel olive]

if sharka was not there what would happen to Bellhart?

[dusky bay]

It would die in act3

You see shakra killing enemies outside of the two gates

Even alot of bodies infront of them

but ig fuck songclave you don't need second sentinel it can just die or magically live somehow

[novel olive]

maybe caretaker actually taking care of them

or Garmond and Zaza

I guess the songclave need to be somewhat safe so that we wont have to see Sherma body like

[ornate forge]

Makes sense since they are the keepers of knowledge

[dusky bay]

Garmond leaves the citadel to go fight the black things and the caretaker hides with his other buds

I think atleast turning on second sentinel is needed for act3 bec just wat

[median junco]

do we have a relation between Lifeblood and Infection? Is infection just corrupted Lifeblood, or are they an example of convergent evolution?
It is possible that those in Hallownest descended from "Heretics" were more susceptible to infection, in much the same way those of Pharloom who's ancestors underwent silk transfusion fell first to the Haunting.

[sleek pier]

man I'm really hoping TC expands on the city of steel. sounds very alluring. Imagine a game set in an industrial all-metal metropolis with a living population and all. I get reminded of Zaofu (metal clan city) from legend of korra somewhat

[unreal estuary]

There isn't a connection that we know of, Lifeblood is a substance that can corrupt the shell of a bug when taken in large doses, while the Infection is the result of the Radiance entering the dreams of Hallownest's bugs. The reason Hallownest was susceptible to the Infection was because they had forgotten the Radiance. We currently have no knowledge of Lifeblood's origin other than that it likely has some connection to The Abyss.

[manic sage]

there is a line of dialogue in which hornet speculates over one

but she adds that maybe she's just imagining things

so it's up to interpretation

[vague ferry]

wait why do people think it has some connection to the abyss

[unreal estuary]

Because of the Lifeblood Core room in the Abyss, because of the lifeblood creature it's been theorized that there's some connection there

The wiki calls that thing the 'abyss creature' as well

But it's purely speculation

[lilac monolith]

couldn't it just be that it's an ancient bug that was corrupted by lifeblood?

[unreal estuary]

I mean it fully could be

[vague ferry]

wasn't the lifeblood core room made like that because of joni, s/he got banished into there

[novel olive]

it might be, the name "abyss creature" come from the file name in game

[unreal estuary]

No, we find her corpse in the Howling Cliffs so I doubt it

[novel olive]

but it might not related to the void and just live in the abyss since the lifeblood room is there

[cyan sorrel]

silksong cogcore is just path of pain reworked

[lilac monolith]

nah the lifeblood core is in the abyss, joni is in howling cliffs

[lilac monolith]

to be much more forgiving yeah

[cobalt coyote]

More Like white palace

Why does everyone call slightly difficult platforming segments Path of pain man

[cyan sorrel]

because it's hard man :(

[cobalt coyote]

Cogwork core is white palace level

Nothing compare to Path of pain in silksong yet

The surface climb for example is very short and way easier than PoP

What is Mary holden cooking

[novel olive]

Lifeblood consume living creature who ingest them too much, make cocoon in there and spread out, like how a plant would breed (i forgot the term for plant breeding), which is the nature of living, thus the name "Lifeblood". It's kinda oppose the power of nothingness, so I doubt there is a link between them, and the lifblood room just happen to be seeded near Abyss. However, the Abyss creature might be one of the Void creature like we saw in Silksong, found the lifeblood room and make nest in there while also ingesting a large amount of lifeblood, turning it into some king of void-lifeblood hybdrid

[cobalt coyote]

Some King of

[novel olive]

maybe void power cancel out the life power from lifeblood, so lifeblood don't entirely consume the creature whole, but become part of it

[unreal estuary]

I mean yeah that could very much be the case

My only thing though is that none of the other void creatures have eyes quite like the Abyss creature, so I do think it's more likely it's related more to lifeblood than the Abyss, but I also don't think it's exclusive to that space. We see it in Godhome as well, in that Lifeblood room, so there's a chance it exists within spaces of large concentrations of Lifeblood

Which means it could come to the Wormways

[novel olive]

I mean

shade lord kinda have that eyes too

[unreal estuary]

Good point

[novel olive]

so imagine this, TC confirmed the Abyss in Hollow Knight is just a shore, and the Abyss in Silksong is a lake, but only part of it

the void lake - kingdom - land is large, and there will be a lot more creature there that we haven't seen

[unreal estuary]

Oh yeah 100%

I think what they specifically said was that there was a lot underneath the lake of void that we don't see, which applies to both games, even in Silksong we never go anywhere in the lake of void other than straight down

So there could be anything in there

[novel olive]

Ah and the thing in Godhome

There's a lot of theory about lifeblood connected to the dream realm, since in Joni repose, Abyss lifeblood room and Godhome room all have this dreamcatcher effect that only happen in dream realm

So if that Abyss creature is part of the Lifeblood power them it might have the power to travel between realm too

[steep talon]

And also dream realm was split, whatever that means. Split is a weird word for it though, more like fractured

[novel olive]

So yeah if the wormway is infected like in act3 and there is room for the creature I guess it can teleport there too

[vestal swan]

It was split because two specific parts of it were separated

That wouldn't be fractured

[novel olive]

Dream Realm consist of multiple domains, but the split only created Nightmare realm

The Nightmare Realm has only one King as far as we know

[steep talon]

So Unn, white lady arguably, lifeblood beast and radiance are in dream realm? Wonder what parties they are throwing in nightmare realm

[novel olive]

The Dream realm is like a free land, I guess, if you can access part of it and ward it from others you can have your own domain

[vestal swan]

WL has no dream abilities besides mild psychicness as far as we know

[steep talon]

Yaarghably

[vestal swan]

Did you have a stroke

[steep talon]

No

[lilac monolith]

is the red memory in hornet's part of the dream realm?

[novel olive]

I mean maybe Unn is not dreaming now and instead reborn into a loli

points at Nuu

[vestal swan]

The red memory is hornet's memory yes

[lilac monolith]

but does it have a connection to the dream realm?

[steep talon]

Not sure, might just be a memory. Not specifically taking place in dream realm

[unreal estuary]

It's not a dream, it's a memory

[novel olive]

It's a memory, not dream

[unreal estuary]

It's something caused by the Snail Shamans rather than the Moths

[vestal swan]

Those are basically the same thing in this universe, they're made of the same thing

If it's inside your head it's a dream

Dream doesn't mean fake or anything like that

[novel olive]

No, but you have control over dream domains, I think

[lilac monolith]

the reason i'm wondering is how the white lady would be able to talk to present day hornet through a memory

[novel olive]

Memory in Silksong is like, a reflection of your life

[unreal estuary]

Except not really, Dreams are like an entire realm unto itself housing your most true desires and thoughts, memories appear to be a snapshot of your greatest moments, and only Hornet can enter then with the Elegy (the Snail Shamans too)

[vestal swan]

You don't have control over your own dreams because it's your own dreams, hornet was just retracing a path

[unreal estuary]

Memories having no dream particles I think is what makes a clear separation, there are always particles in dreams in Hallownest, even in Godhome at the beginning

[steep talon]

Hornet doesn't have dream nail to see those particles

[vestal swan]

No because there's multiple instances of memories in hollow Knight? Hornet is just not interacting with essence she's interacting with her own soul and the spell is using soul

[steep talon]

But I too think memories aren't dreams necessarily. Or at least aren't in dream realm

[unreal estuary]

True but if memories were the same as dreams we would see them in their memories

[steep talon]

Or at least red memory isn't, I don't think

[vestal swan]

PV, White Defender, path of pain memory, birthplace memory, young Sly etc

[unreal estuary]

Yes but all those instances of memories are either the birthplace cutscene which has no particles or in the White Palace which has particles upon entrance, and every dream boss exists in the dream realm, as does every other dream encounter

[novel olive]

I always thought Hornet only imagine that new dialogue with White Lady XD since Hornet intent to tskr the flower from her memory, White Lady would show her the flower whatever Hornet said since it was part of her real memory. The new dialogue is just like how Hornet talk to the Green Prince in his dream, the Green Prince didn't actually said that but he did in his memory, intruded by Hornet

[unreal estuary]

Yeah but again all of those are in some variation of the Dream realm and all have dream particles floating around, none of the memories in Silksong have those

[vestal swan]

Hornet can't see essence because she's not messing with essence, it's basically the same mechanic, when she goes into the heart's past it's basically using the dream nail to fight them at their peak the same way TK does for ghost rematches etc

[novel olive]

But also, is there any dreamcatcher effect we see in Hollow Knight whenever we enter a memory domain in Silksong?

[vestal swan]

You access some of these directly from the person what are you talking about

[lilac monolith]

could be the same with the white lady, that she was intruded in the memory

[vestal swan]

Dreams and memories are synonymous in this universe I don't know why y'all are acting like it's separate

She just used a different method

[unreal estuary]

They're still fought in the dream realm

[novel olive]

That's is why I thought memory is not in dream domain

[vestal swan]

Yeah you try to access a memory and where does it take you? Lol do you realize what you're saying?

[novel olive]

Although the Seer did mention she can pluck a charm from memory....

[steep talon]

What are those memory bulbs btw. The ones we collect in verdania, and the ones we touch in weaver memories?

[vestal swan]

Bulbs?

[steep talon]

Yee, white glowy things

[vestal swan]

You mean the silk heart things?

[lilac monolith]

i think he's talking about the glowing orbs, like memories

[vestal swan]

I think those are old weaver memories concentrated on the silk, I don't remember exactly who they're from or what they're about

[steep talon]

Hmm. Weird that they're the same as verdania ones, but act in a different way kinda?

[lilac monolith]

well we know the one from FS is also prob FS' memory, so the same could be said with widow

[vestal swan]

It's all behaving just like essence by the way, it's in concentrated places and hornet can make it resonate because it's concentrated on the silk in the area, but where there's no silk or not a high concentration of it she can't pull anything up with the needolin

[novel olive]

Could be, but like, Pharloom is very far away. Godseeker was drawn to Pale King power after he died, and catch a faint glimpse of White Lady who is nearby, but didn't notice GMS. If White Lady is suppressing her power, I don't think she can access Hornet memory so far away

[lilac monolith]

i think that's just because the pale king acted as a beacon for bugs, while gms didn't really give a fuck about normal bugs 'till the weavers defected

[vestal swan]

I don't think GMS ever cared about normal bugs

[novel olive]

I think we can agree that it works the same way with essence, but it's not necessary a dream thing. The crystal in Crystal Peak behave like how Soul power would, but not actually the same as Soul, yeah?

[lilac monolith]

well she cares enough to possess them and make them hunt weavers

[vestal swan]

No it's literally a dream thing? And the crystals are literally absorbing soul so that's not a good comparison

[vestal swan]

That's not caring about lower bugs??

[lilac monolith]

the crystals absorb soul?

[lilac monolith]

reading back idk what i was saying xD

[steep talon]

It's like whispering roots yeah. But I don't think there any whispering roots in dreams unlike these glowy orbs. At least the tree is physical.

[vestal swan]

What is this about white lady affecting the memory??

[novel olive]

White Lady didn't want to be a beacon or anything and was actively suppressed herself, yet got caught anyway. Godseeker resonated with overwhelming power, whether the source of power want to or not

[vestal swan]

Nah WL and Unn both opt out

She found them but she could not bring them into the ritual

[novel olive]

Not really absorbing soul but more like concentrate/retract them, like how a lens would do to light

There is a whole lore archive about that

[abstract rivet]

What bug type is the Green Prince

[vestal swan]

Either another kind of mantis or a grasshopper I think

[lilac monolith]

i wonder what a fight with unn would be like, just a lugoli reskin?

[novel olive]

I was talking to Enigman

[vestal swan]

I know it still doesn't make sense that's why I'm asking you

[abstract rivet]

damn mantises are everywhere nowadaus

[tough grotto]

Probably never gonna know, at least for a while unless we have hornet in hallownest dlc and he’s a boss

[novel olive]

I don't agree that White Lady intrude into Hornet's memory, you see, but that's a popular theory in fandom

[vestal swan]

She doesn't she's just a memory

[lilac monolith]

the common mosquito of hollow knight

[novel olive]

Right, that's what I thought too

[abstract rivet]

I understand Weavers wanted more people to sing for The Choir to keep GMS asleep but are they stupid why dont they just enslave pilgrims directly instead of making them walk hundred miles. Am i missing something

[vestal swan]

Those same people incorrectly assume that white lady created the flower and clearly are not paying attention to what's happening at all

[novel olive]

But I'm also saying that because it's memory and not a dream thing there is noway White Lady can intrude it, if she can affect dream realm at all

[novel olive]

Nooo its not like that

[vestal swan]

Wherever the pilgrims are coming from they can't really just keep them all there for an endless supply, besides at some point the weavers handed it off to the citadel choir

[steep talon]

Weavers created sins for stupid reasons. Citadel bugs inherited that and made this shit even more stupid most likely

[vestal swan]

So the weavers weren't in charge in the long run

[novel olive]

People just think White Lady actually talk to Hornet because Hornet said new lines, and that made White Lady said thing that probably wasn't said in the past

[vestal swan]

White lady as far as we know doesn't really have an effect on the dream realm, and it's a memory and a dream that's kind of the same thing she literally lays down on a bed for the spell

[steep talon]

Yee. I think it's just a memory not actual WL too

[abstract rivet]

What happened to Weavers after they gave power to the Conductors, did they focus on other sides of Pharloom

[lilac monolith]

they dipped and prayed gms would never wake up

[steep talon]

Some escaped, those that remained decided to die and wait for Hornet or anyone that could defeat gms, basically

[novel olive]

I'm still kinda confused, does the enslaved culture happen during or after the Weaver leave and the bugs were left to their own device?

I dont remember any text actually confirm that timeline

[steep talon]

You mean slab?

[abstract rivet]

Ohh right they fleed

[novel olive]

The underwork

[abstract rivet]

Remember the Weaver that we see in Deepnest?

[steep talon]

Post weavers most likely. At least that's my impression

[novel olive]

And things, like the pew that made people paid to confess and got told to work harder

[steep talon]

Tha saws to grind shit were most likely made by architects. Or so I imagine because twelfth arch. sells the saw

[novel olive]

It felt like post Weaver things, but everywhere said otherwise, and I haven't see any text

[abstract rivet]

what is the most evil species/higher being in your guys opinion, I’d say Weavers, Radiance second, GMS third somewhat

[foggy stratus]

Radiance.

[abstract rivet]

I’m disputed with the spot of GMS

[novel olive]

This is what we are talking about, we dont even know if the Weaver enslaved them to say they are evil lol

[abstract rivet]

Radiance didn’t seem too bad till some silly wyrm guy decided “yeah ill enter this guys territory”

[novel olive]

Umm but judging from how they act in Hallownest maybe they did enslaved bugs

[lilac monolith]

probably implemented by the conducters, since they kinda went mad with power

[foggy stratus]

Then she went full genocidal maniac because her followers left her if their own free will.

[abstract rivet]

lowkey I would do the same

[novel olive]

Technically Radiance didnt kill them eh? Just turn them back into what they originally were

[abstract rivet]

gms is kinda similiar though

[novel olive]

That's a petty ex

[vestal swan]

Radiance killed a ton of bugs what

[abstract rivet]

No they weren’t a orange corrupted husk when they worshipped the radiance

[terse warren]

Meh, Weavers are assholes I highly doubt they're above slavery

[abstract rivet]

They had will, just assisted by Radiance is what I assume

[novel olive]

As side effect from turning into thoughtless bugs like they were before Pale King, yeah. The killing wasn't the end goal

[steep talon]

That's true.

[novel olive]

It's the worshipping

[abstract rivet]

Pale King and Weavers both share the same trait of doing terrible choices to fullfil a goal they failed to achieve

[terse warren]

Despite knowing that was the case, they proclaimed themselves holy to keep bugs under their control and imprisoned their sister who wanted to tell people the truth...

[terse warren]

What other choice did PK have

[abstract rivet]

PK is more justifiable

[steep talon]

Oh wait. Isn't there a penitent with a weaver effigy for some reason. Funny guy

[novel olive]

Pale King can just. Not invade other's land

[terse warren]

They saw it as a place of holy rehabilitation

[abstract rivet]

Not saying he can’t justify his actions, just saying they share a trait, Weavers are WAY more evil

[novel olive]

He has choice

[terse warren]

Which he didn't do by the way

[abstract rivet]

All of the higher beings except Unn (and maybe White Lady and Nyleth )are hungry for power so badly

[novel olive]

Yeah see, he choose to be a dominant ruler

[terse warren]

Everyone who followed him did so willingly, and those who didn't follow him were pretty much left to be

[abstract rivet]

yeah

[steep talon]

Is Nyleth a HB, that seems odd

[terse warren]

I'm saying he never invaded anyone

[abstract rivet]

I think? I mean it can be argued

[terse warren]

Nahhh

[steep talon]

Well I guess if Gorb is a higher being. Youknow fuck it why not

[terse warren]

She's basically Isma on crack

[abstract rivet]

She shares a trait to other higher beings like creating a whole area, species etc giving life to new stuff

[terse warren]

Gorb isn't a higher being 😭

[abstract rivet]

gorb isnt a higher being bro what

[novel olive]

Although if we count the developer's note as somewhat canon, TC did explain that Pale King was the one who convinced the moth to erase Radiance's existence first

[steep talon]

Ah, smh. A non believer

[abstract rivet]

I mean if you mean gorb being a higher being as in being high on cocaine youre right

[terse warren]

Never heard of this at all and also if it's not in the game it's not canon

[terse warren]

She doesn't really have enough feats and also imo if you're not stated to be a higher being, you aren't

The term is so vague I'd prefer not making assumptions

[abstract rivet]

did Team Cherry state this rule?

[terse warren]

No that's just how canonicity works everywhere

If it's not in the game, it was left out for a reason

[abstract rivet]

Can’t really be so certain in the HK verse man

[terse warren]

We really can

The fact that it's not in any canon media means it is something that TC can change on a whim, meaning it's not canon

[novel olive]

Because he has skill issue that's why. There was a truce in Mantis Village in exchange for gatekeeping Deepnest. If it was a truce from Pale King to stop the Mantis Lord from invading Hallownest, why would they agree to protect Hallownest from Deepnest? It was the otherway around, Pale King want Fungal Waste and has a draw, so they has a truce

[abstract rivet]

This game changed my perspective on creating theories for so many games Idk anything can be uncertain

[steep talon]

There are some cut content that informs us about development. But using it as evidence for real lore is very dubious

[terse warren]

Granted, stuff that was in previous media got retconned so.

[abstract rivet]

fair

[terse warren]

Cut content is just never used for canon stuff

[novel olive]

Yeah it's not actually canon, just a suggestion. There is no text in game indicate this

[terse warren]

Fungal waste is mushroom territory not mantis

[novel olive]

Im just judging from his past behaviour

[terse warren]

There is no past behavior indicating any invasion

[teal drift]

Gorb is absolutely a higher being why else is he so ascendant.

[steep talon]

True!

[fading shard]

hi

[abstract rivet]

i know a Kingdom isn’t a kingdom depending on area size in real life and HK but damn Verdania can call itself barely a kingdom compared to the kingdoms we see in both games

[fading shard]

what's the conversation about this time

[fading shard]

When

[abstract rivet]

Smaller than the citadel industrialism shenanigans area (Underworks$

[terse warren]

Well those two are made by higher beings

Also the actual kingdom of Hallownest is half of the map

[fading shard]

When did any of the team cherry devs say this T_T

[teal drift]

Verdania may have been more expansive than just the memory tbf

[steep talon]

Probably was a bit bigger than what we see in game. Some of it's remnants stretch into moss grotto after all

[fading shard]

wtf are you talking about

[terse warren]

Weavenests aren't part of the Kingdom of Pharloom per se

They were made specifically to be very very far away

[abstract rivet]

I think Silksong with the reference of Verdania, Greymoor, Sands of Karak etc kinda shows how industrialism can fuck the environment lmao. Wokesong!!1!1

[fading shard]

HE NEVER INVADED anybody wdym T_T

[teal drift]

I imagine weavenests are sorta like US military bases

[novel olive]

It's in the game file as a development note, not actually in the plot

[steep talon]

Yes, I agree. Although I was talking about verdania

[terse warren]

Did you know the sky was blue

[abstract rivet]

Real

[terse warren]

Oh

Do we see parts of Verdania in Moss Grotto?

[fading shard]

I have not seen anybody mention this note

ever

[novel olive]

You can look it up, but like I said, it's not in the game plot

[fading shard]

Not even bloody mossbag has mentioned this crap unless I forgot a very specific minute of a video of his where he mentions it

[abstract rivet]

We gotta remove some areas as reference to show the actual size of Pharloom and not Weavenests, Verdania, etc

[steep talon]

Fliers and a few clovers. Also verdania exhibit is right above moss groto exhibit in memorium

[terse warren]

Mhhh ehhh iunno

[steep talon]

Not crazy evidence or anything, but it's something

[terse warren]

Deep Docks, Bellhart, Greymoor, Underworks, Citadel, Putrified Ducts

I think that's it

[steep talon]

The main point was that verdania was probably bigger than the map we get in game

[abstract rivet]

What the fuck

[terse warren]

Well, we do only see a memory ig

[abstract rivet]

That small? damn

[terse warren]

I mean

[steep talon]

Slab also

[abstract rivet]

Doesnt the sentinels colonize other lands though

[terse warren]

Oh true and I guess also Mount Fay?

[abstract rivet]

arent they created for that

[steep talon]

Not sure Mt fay would count, they do have those weird cargos there

[terse warren]

The sentinels are a defense system

[fading shard]

He not ONCE invaded anybodys lands

What are you even talking about

[terse warren]

I mean it was definitely Weaver territory so I'd count it

[fading shard]

He didn't even invade the moths

[steep talon]

Yee fair

[abstract rivet]

thats the second sentinel I think. idk though others are for colonizing no?

[fading shard]

They were said to join willingly

[fading shard]

and out of their own volition

[abstract rivet]

wow silksong is so political we should cancel this bug game

[terse warren]

Never heard about this

I don't see why different sentinels would have different tasks

[fading shard]

the mushrooms were just chill with him and even lore tablets said as much

[abstract rivet]

Heard about it somewhere the thought might be made out of someones ass yk

[steep talon]

Yes, there is a line that said sentinels went on the offense. I think it was from 12th arch?

[fading shard]

the hive wanted to be left alone and WAS left alone by the pale king

[vestal swan]

The only difference between the sentinels we know is how they were made and the most recent one being like the best version supposedly

There are lines about second sentinel protecting the kingdom but I don't remember anything besides that

Because once you wake her up she does actually start killing shit

[steep talon]

Ight I'll find it

[fading shard]

okay I have a question for you good mod, what title do you want me to call you because a weapon to surpass metal is a bit of a hassle

[abstract rivet]

bro killing her citadel collagues (well theyre husks)

[terse warren]

Anyways, Blasted and Karak are Karaka territory

Bilewater is Stiltkin territory

Far Fields and Hunter's March are Skarr territory

Moss Grotto, Wormways and the Marrow weren't worth it

Wisp Thicket is complicated

Verdania is Verdania

Abyss is Abyss

Shellwood is Nyleth

Idk if Craw Lake had its own jurisdiction

I think that's everything

[vestal swan]

Most people just call me powdered or weapon, any shortened version of my name is fine

[fading shard]

oh alright

[vestal swan]

Craws strike me as surviving residents of the moor who upheld their own ideas throughout. Also if there was crops it would make sense that the crows were living above it

[steep talon]

"A gleaming order, clockwork sentinels, so impressive-majestic in function they were charged-b-b-bound to the highest holy duty.
Long before the c-c-creation of the core, the sentinels ventured, even beyond these walls, to see all bugs brought-forced safe to serve the Citadel."

So beyond these walls and forced to serve I think is pretty explicit

Line from 12th architect about cogwork heart

[terse warren]

Oh yup

[vestal swan]

Damn I guess they were the ones that were sent out to take over the four hearts

[sinful nimbus]

"Weapon".... Newgens man

[terse warren]

Yeah maybe

[steep talon]

That's my assumption too. Maybe even beat the shit out of ruined chapel lmao

[terse warren]

Oh maybe

[fading shard]

oh howdy star

[vestal swan]

Also maybe they rounded up the zoo creatures, "forced safe"

[fading shard]

I don't know what I'd exactly be classified as

Because technically I've joined this place a while back but until now I've only been slightly active

[steep talon]

Brought-forced safe to serve. I guess being a zoo animal is serving the citadel?

[vestal swan]

IDK I'm just assuming that through her broken speech pattern she's not putting commas where they're supposed to go or something

Cuz I mean I guess she's a robot but calling prisoners/slaves safe it's a little bit too brainwashed

[steep talon]

I think it's like clarification when she uses two words like that. As in brought and sometimes brought forcefully

Also I just noticed. She says long before creation of the core??!?!?! What, I thought core was made to lull gms to sleep

Holy timelines batman

[terse warren]

Kinda feels like her programming compels her to say one thing which she knows isn't true and she corrects herself after

Or the other way around idk

[terse warren]

I guess they held her to sleep for a while and then started using the core?

This however does pose a question

How fucking old are the Pinstresses???

[vestal swan]

I mean yeah they probably had an actual choir of some sorts dedicated to it for a while, I don't think they put her to sleep and then immediately set up a robot

[steep talon]

Yee, that's the main thing. Pinstresses are crazy ancient

[vestal swan]

What yeah don't the pinstresses predate the sentinels

[steep talon]

Weird though

[earnest monolith]

What kind of bugs are the Deep docks workers?

[terse warren]

Sentinels are based off of the Pinstresses

[vestal swan]

And we thought the nail masters were old damn

[terse warren]

Something something women live longer than men

[vestal swan]

You're telling me that the three guys that decided to go live in seclusion in three of most dangerous areas of the Kingdom aren't going to live as long as the one parked next to a volcano.. actually... and a sandstorm.. actually all five of them are kind of just dangerous for the hell of it

Also isn't there a dead Pinstress in one of the swamps

[steep talon]

I mean they are. I still can't believe nails are considered holy weapons of hallownest, only two mfers in five knights team use nails, one of the is from another place altogether. And there is some weird sect of nailmasters in hallownest yet no one mentions them or acknowledges them. Soo weird. Like you'd think Lemm would know something about them

[vestal swan]

Why are they considered holy weapons what?

[steep talon]

I could have sworn there was a line in hk about them being holy in hallownest.

[vestal swan]

The only time I remember anybody talking about holy nail is when some crackhead came up with the Excalibur theory

[steep talon]

So unfortunately. Source: trust me bro for now. Maybe I should go and find it

[slow olive]

wiki just has a sly quote saying its a sacred duty to keep a nail's edge sharp

[terse warren]

Yeah I assume she got killed by the Sentinels or the Choruses since she was the closest to the Citadel (in Ducts)

[steep talon]

Yee, she really looks like a stilkin. I guess integrated well with new- erm old? environment

[steep talon]

That's wasn't it. I remember it being worded specifically. Gotta go find it

[silk dirge]

bad news for people who want an act 4 dlc

so unless team cherry wants to make all mementos required for act 4 its not going to happen probably

[slow olive]

how did they find that out

[steep talon]

pogseal is that you. Also not sure that checks out. Enemies can still exist. And all act 3 exclusives can get auto filled like dream mobs and high halls automatons