sk-lore

[vestal swan]

Nah Id say she's pretty dead, also greyroot did it by eating her too

[edgy barn]

tbf binding is sorta like killing.

[terse warren]

So clearly the only way she had to defeat GMS was to bind her, which is something she doesn't want to happen. If she could kill her she would

[vestal swan]

How to kill a god:

[terse warren]

Eva doesn't agree. Binding isn't killing

[wintry flame]

man team cherry putting red coral gorge in promo material is so funny like you know the game doesn't have shit about this area

[deft tendon]

[vestal swan]

Wishful thinking or trying to convince hornet to kill her imo

[terse warren]

Still mad about that it's literally fake publicity 🥀

[edgy barn]

uhhh that is the memory coral tower actually 🤓

[stone herald]

whats H dawg supposed to do here though

[fading shard]

Sadbess

[wintry flame]

this screenshot probably encapsulates the full extent of what goes on in the area

[wintry flame]

MrCherry that's basically endgame spoilers 😭

[terse warren]

Eva doesn't seem the kind of person to do wishful thinking like that

Anyways it's not traditional killing

[deft tendon]

nevermind radiance kills hornet, she cant shadow dash

[stone herald]

the humble beast pogo:

i think

[deft tendon]

what does it have I-frames?

[terse warren]

The humble Sharpdart

[stone herald]

i read that at some point here

[deft tendon]

oh sharpdart too

nvm

[molten python]

Yes.

You can pass through enemies with Beast pogo.

You can also do it with the other pogos, although Beast is the easiest to pass through enemies with.

Not sure about Reaper and Shaman though.

[vestal swan]

I mean she's been on life support since she was born I would totally lie about that

Anyway hornet needs to bind a moth corpse so she can talk to all the people in her head

[stone herald]

yknow the fact that the vessels were so good at absorbing and hornet is so good at binding stuff to her leaves some questions about the pale king's nature

the other weavers werent able to just bind shit, right?

[vestal swan]

Well one of those is void and one of those is silk so

Yes they were able to pass skills to each other so it seems like a weaver thing

[stone herald]

oh okay

[vestal swan]

The fact that they left these abilities behind to be gathered means that they expected a weaver to absorb them

[stone herald]

"one of silken strength"

yeah that pretty directly ties it to a specific silk wielding discipline

i guess in a metroidvania your character kind of has to be able to do stuff like that

[terse warren]

You weren't created to be a pseudo god

[vestal swan]

Well she didn't even get to do that so

And she's potentially older than like the entire founding of Hollownest so

[terse warren]

P sure Eva describes binding people as something unique to Hornet

[vestal swan]

Extremely long lived and tortured individual

[terse warren]

!wiki Eva

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Eva

Hollow Knight Wiki

Eva

Eva is an NPC in Hollow Knight: Silksong.

Location

Weavenest Atla

Role

Miscellaneous

Affiliations

Weavers (Creators)

Gender

Female

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Eva_Sing.ogg

[molten python]

Wasn't that about the Crests?

[stone herald]

hornet specifically hs just bound a ton of crests

[molten python]

Being able to have multiple Crests is what she described as unique to Hornet afaik.

[vestal swan]

Even if Eva said that I'm not going to believe that this was another stupid Excalibur situation

The weavers were waiting on somebody to "save" them and their only specification was another Weaver

[molten python]

The Weaver abilities were just left behind in hopes that some Weaverspawn eventually returns to Pharloom and can help defeat GMS.

[vestal swan]

That is my point

[molten python]

Yes, I agree.

[vestal swan]

They did not expect a wyrm spawn to come back with the ability to absorb things, which some people are trying to attribute to him for some reason

[terse warren]

The abilities are left there because they are corpses

The mummified weavers are meant to "watch over" the pilgrims and all that

Not to be bound

[stone herald]

Why do they tell hornet to bind their strength to her

[terse warren]

"Incredible... Your nature is so unlike a mortal bug's. Yours is malleable, transitory. It is a marvelous thing, worth my long life to behold."

I doubt Eva would say this if her mothers, which are the only people she ever met, could all do this

[terse warren]

They can probably sense that Hornet has that kind of ability? They're corpses, I don't even know how they can speak at all

[fading shard]

binding and crests are one and the same at this point

[stone herald]

Mask maker says something about that nature too

[fading shard]

caus we bind the damn crests into ourselves as in hornet

[wintry flame]

Dear members of Team Cherry,

I am reaching out to you as I have found myself stuck analyzing one of Silksong's many enigmatic story elements and I hoped to gain some clarity from this message.
The humble Squirrm, the Blasted Steps creature (describing it as an enemy would feel like giving it too much credit) which is implied to be the Judge's larval state, is a mystery to me on a biological level.
The Judges seem to be bound to a single task, like much of the bugs affected by the haunting, but their demeanor and purpose begs the question if the curse's effects actually changed anything about their state.
Are the Judges sapient or more like animals specifically trained to kill people they don't really like? Did the squirrms have any aspirations before the Citadel inevitably bound their race to a single role? A lot of what happens in Blasted Steps is a direct result of Karak's decay so it's easy to think that the Judges existed beforehand; however there doesn't seem any evidence of them in memory sections or the dedicated Sands Of Karak area. This begs the ultimate question(s): were the Judges there or were they speicifically bred and tutored by the Citadel? And if not, did they do something different before? It breaks my heart to think these creatures are forever bound to serve a failing system and I hope that the future holds a happy ending for them and their kin.
Thank you for taking your time reading this message and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day

Kind regards,
A.Gator

[stone herald]

You bind skills and spells too

[wintry flame]

i did not proofread this

[molten python]

Yes, that's about Crests. Hornet can change her Crests.

[molten python]

You bind Silk Skills, Weaver abilities, and most important of all, you bind to heal.

[fading shard]

True

[molten python]

Other Weavers can bind too, being able to change Crests is what is unique to Hornet.

[fading shard]

probably unique to her thanks to her wyrm blood that none of the othe weavers posess

[molten python]

That's not impossible but there is zero evidence for that, so I wouldn't call it probable.

[fading shard]

I mean what else would it be atp

that's my only real explanation to it

[molten python]

I think the main reason she is unique is because it makes the gameplay more fun and varied and allows a larger range of builds.

[fading shard]

I meant in lore

[spark valve]

Eva thinking hornet’s malleable nature is unique indicates it’s not a weaver trait and would instead derive from her wyrm ancestry

[molten python]

The answer to this, like most other questions, is simple "we don't know."

Team Cherry likes to keep a lot of stuff unknown or vague.

[molten python]

Not a Weaver trait yes, that doesn't mean it comes from Wyrms.

[spark valve]

she is half weaver half wyrm

[molten python]

Yes.

[spark valve]

so it comes from the wyrm side

[fading shard]

Sure but it is plausible for the explanation

[spark valve]

process of elimination

[molten python]

Not every ability has to necessarily be derived from one's bloodline.

[fading shard]

Am I saying it's the reason no, but am I saying it's possible

[spark valve]

this one is innate so it is

[molten python]

Do we have any evidence that Wyrms can change their nature?

[spark valve]

they literally do metamorphosis

transformation is a huge part of their life cycle

[molten python]

Wait until you learn about things like mutations.

[spark valve]

[molten python]

Also, being able to change Crests isn't necessarily some physical biological attribute.

[heavy gyro]

it is since hornet somewhat changes personality after equipping a crest, like the beast crest

[fading shard]

couldn't it just be something she got from her weaver and wyrm blood being mixed together?

giving her something neither the pale king or the other wyrms or the regular weavers could do

Often times in media hybrids get this sort of situation

[molten python]

If a child is born with an innate talent in chess, is it guaranteed that at least one of their parents is also a chess genius?

[fading shard]

no

[spark valve]

Lady... Incredible... Your nature is so unlike a mortal bugs.

it's a trait derived from her father... a god...

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet: If you see a transitional state, it is one I have accepted. My mask has remained defined through lifetimes uncounted.
Mask Maker: Aye. Rigid I'm sure, but your kind rarely develop evenly, and the lifetime of bugs are poor measure for one like you.

[molten python]

You can't assert that as a fact.

[spark valve]

Child of Weavers?... And not? I can detect your Weaver strain, yet you are different from them, and from me, a shifting, blended thing? What are you creature?
Step closer, lady, that my senses would better understand your nature.
the wyrm part of her is the part of her nature eva is trying to understand

this isn't that complicated it's obviously from her wyrm side

[sinful nimbus]

Two NPCs say it so

Neither of which are unreliable narrators and both of which are just spewing exposition

[stone herald]

Mask maker says "your kind"

[spark valve]

she has an innate magical power that is not like mortal bugs
she's a demigod
gee I wonder where that power came from

surely there's no god she's directly descended from that that could come from

[terse warren]

So they can bind bugs to gain crests but can't change crests

I don't really see the logic

[heavy gyro]

do yall think pharloom's regular bugs got uplifted by another wyrm a long time ago who is long gone

[terse warren]

No

[stone herald]

No they came to seek the citadel

Which is a big ass bug catcher built by the weavers

[deft tendon]

whats a stronger infection? radiance or lifeblood

[molten python]

I don't think other Weavers can gain Crests either.

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance

[fading shard]

thank you star

btw how've you been

[terse warren]

So they can bind and gain nothing from it? Still doesn't make sense

[deft tendon]

tbf lifeblood has regenerative abilities and can spread just as well

[fading shard]

Nice seeing you show up

[sinful nimbus]

Pretty good

[vague whale]

We haven't seen End Stage Lifeblood yet, though

[fading shard]

good to hear

[terse warren]

And we've only seen a sealed off infection

[deft tendon]

plasmified zango?

[sinful nimbus]

Well one is a physical affliction the other spreads through dreams which makes it both harder to avoid and harder to stop

[stone herald]

The pale king was able to deal with lifeblood, but not infection

Joni didn't bring hallownest down

[deft tendon]

joni is the radiance

[vague whale]

I meant more in terms of infecting an entire kingdom. How fast can it do that and how hard will it be to remove once it has spread that much

[stone herald]

Oh true

[fading shard]

binding has to do with silk powers

[deft tendon]

it seems lifeblood spread VERY fast, right after act 3 started

[fading shard]

such as silk skills, healing which we see first sinner do too

[vague whale]

Yes, agreed

[silk dirge]

my assumption is weavers would just not be able to bind the things for crests

[spark valve]

being able to bind and being able to bind crests are different things

[molten python]

There's other uses for binding than just Crests. You literally bind every time you heal.

[terse warren]

I'm saying only Hornet can bind to consume and assimilate

Binding for healing is completely different

[fading shard]

okay what is it forgetting that the infection of the radiance also has a physical manifestation of being infected

[molten python]

Can the Knight also change Crests? Can THK? Can the Pale King?

[stone herald]

It's really unsure
You could argue the king's brand is a credit

[fading shard]

They can't bind T_T

[terse warren]

Different Weavers have their own abilities just like Hornet's is binding

[silk dirge]

maybe they could focus new crests

[molten python]

The infection spreads through dreams. When the infection gets bad, it manifests in reality.

[terse warren]

They don't have the Silk control to gain more Crests

[spark valve]

sure

[stone herald]

Though of course it's a BRAND not a crestz even though it seems cresty

[fading shard]

we don't know if they can

[molten python]

You don't think other Weavers can bind Silk?

[fading shard]

and you need to have the ability to bind

[spark valve]

it's plausible, pk doesn't have much reason to and the knight is a weird case

[vague whale]

lol no, Weavers can bind

[terse warren]

Bind to assimilate no

Bind to heal yet

I've already stayed this

[silk dirge]

pk, thk and tk could probably focus crests since thats their equivalent of binding

but we dont know

[fading shard]

I wonder if the pale king would consider changing crests or gaining crests to be ethical or not

since the guy tends to really wanna be as ethical as possible

[fading shard]

we don't see them have that ability so we have no clue

besides would the pale king even do such a thing knowing his character?

[molten python]

I mean I've played as the Knight before and I couldn't. Not sure if it was different for you guys.

[stone herald]

What would the knight bind though

[silk dirge]

i mean there was a lack of objects to focus into a crest in hallownest

[stone herald]

There's nothing to bind in hallownest

[molten python]

Bind?

[stone herald]

Ok focus you know what I mean

[silk dirge]

anyways yeah its pointless to assume what abilities they do/dont have

[stone herald]

I don't see why they couldn't though

[silk dirge]

but id assume crests have to do with absorbing the soul of a bug

so focusing would allow them to

[stone herald]

The silk facilitates it for hornet , but nothing suggests that crests are inherently tied to silk

[molten python]

How would you know the difference between the Knight being unable to focus a Crest therefore you don't know if something is Crest focusable vs there's no Crests available?

[fading shard]

Okay if that is the case the pale king would be very much so against that

[molten python]

All bugs have a crest.

[fading shard]

and I think you can agree on that

[stone herald]

Yeah exactly, you can't really rule things out

[sinful nimbus]

The Knight is able to absorb the powers of multiple abilities which is somewhat analogous

[stone herald]

Yeah, no reason to assume the knight can't bind crests

[fading shard]

like star come on I think you can agree on that

[silk dirge]

i mean some charms are kinda analogous to crests also

[stone herald]

The knight has excellent soul control, and they're also the goddamn knight

[stone herald]

Charms are just charms though, you slot them in and out, they're objects

[fading shard]

you mean the shape of unn

[sinful nimbus]

Well yeah he wasn't binding everything

[stone herald]

We should've been ahle to bind menderbug

[sinful nimbus]

You can view his metamorphosis/rebirth and King's Brand as him changing his nature though

[stone herald]

Taking on the king's brand definitely changed the knights crest too

[silk dirge]

i wonder if void beings have crests tho

[fading shard]

Listen it's clear that the wyrm side of hornet let's her use her weaver powers in a manner no other weaver could

[silk dirge]

like tk is void so would it even have a crest

[fading shard]

She is a demi god after all and the weavers are only mere bugs

[fading shard]

Strong ones sure

but still

[silk dirge]

but not divine

thanks first sinner

[fading shard]

As i said only mere bugs T_T

Being divine has a correlation with having higher being blood

[molten python]

That was my entire point from the beginning. Not ruling things out.

Because people were acting like it's a confirmed fact that all Wyrms have the ability to change crests, which they pass on to their children.

[spark valve]

lying on the internet

[molten python]

Also, some of you forgot to consider something. Eva says that's Hornet's nature is unlike any mortal bugs, which apparently confirms that this ability comes from Wyrms. How many mortal bugs do you think Eva has met? How many higher beings do you think Eva has met?

[spark valve]

ah the classic whining about not having an explicit account for how a character who is clearly meant to be knowledgeable and taken as an expert in a field learned every specific bit of information they have

eva is the crest exposition character she is a reliable narrator

[vague whale]

for real, it's not confirmed whatsoever that that's the case

[silk dirge]

i mean we dont even fucking know other wyrms

[whole holly]

we don't see it in first game, would be fund to explore though

[molten python]

Eva says that Hornet's nature is unlike any mortal bug. This can imply that Hornet's nature is like a higher being. I don't think Eva knows of any higher being other than GMS, let alone Wyrms like the Pale King.

[silk dirge]

"wyrm" in this case refers to pale king

we dont know if other wyrms even transform into pale beings who are related to soul or can transform into various types of hbs

i think gms would be able to change crests

now would she have a reason to no

but she is the goddess of silk which is a medium for soul and she can definitely bind

[smoky haven]

I saw a theory on reddit that talked about how pale beings can't make worshippers it's so cool

[molten python]

I don't think Wyrms transform into various types of higher beings. Wyrms are higher beings, and the Pale King is a Wyrm and hence a higher being.

[silk dirge]

yeah true

[vague whale]

doubtful actually

[silk dirge]

but what im saying is when "wyrm" is used in the context of hornet it specifically means pk

[molten python]

Possible but unconfirmable.

[smoky haven]

like pale king gave knowledge to the bugs of hallownest who were already there, and even stole raddie's worshippers, gms evolved pharlids into weavers. but she didn't directly make them

[whole holly]

Eva might just only know nature of mortal bugs and still distinctualize hornet from other bugs, Eva's knowledge may just come from her divine ability rather than her being inherently imbued with knowledge, she can be capable of analyzing nature of bugs, and figuring out their origin, which wouldn't be far fetched with all the things that take place in game it align with game logic

[molten python]

Weaver Queen crest is pretty cool though, infinite Silk.

[fair tusk]

wait is both pk and the pale wyrm different beings but both are pale beings?

[molten python]

What is the pale wyrm?

[silk dirge]

pk

[molten python]

The Pale King is a Wyrm.

[fair tusk]

pre reicarnation pk

[edgy barn]

Pk is the pale wyrm

[fading shard]

they are the same T_T

[molten python]

That is him, he transformed.

[fair tusk]

and both are higher beings?

and pale beings?

[molten python]

They're the same being.

[fading shard]

....That's just him

[molten python]

It's one being.

[edgy barn]

Yes because it is the same dude.

[fading shard]

It's the same dde T_T

[fair tusk]

thx guys

[fading shard]

the grubs and grubberflies are also the same guys ^_^

[fading shard]

of course

[whole holly]

i wish we saw another Wyrm , maybe not pale, maybe just regular higher being of some nature

[smoky haven]

I wanna see unn in her primeee

[whole holly]

me too, but how would that even happen, maybe hornet's memory? doubt she met unn though

[fading shard]

they'd probably be very different

The pale king has always been different compared to other higher beings nature

[whole holly]

guys who do you think is protagonist of next game? other than lace?

[whole holly]

yeah

[silk dirge]

quirrel prequel

[molten python]

We do know of one other possible Wyrm.

[fading shard]

If you are talking about the black wyrm

[silk dirge]

sherma pharloom management game would go hard

[fading shard]

we know it got its ass folded by regular bugs

[whole holly]

sure, how large would game be

[fading shard]

Like no offence but like come on now

[edgy barn]

Blackwyrm* and we gave no confirmation that i was an actual wyrm or even a living creature.

[fading shard]

Idk if the fact that the pale kings army is so strong it took out a higher being is impressive or that higher being is a joke

[silk dirge]

good question

[molten python]

Maybe PK was there too.

[vague whale]

bet it wasn't

[edgy barn]

The battle of waterloo did not involve a creature called the waterloo.

[whole holly]

why did TC even introduce Battle of Blackwyrm if it is mentioned only once?

[fading shard]

And why's that?

[molten python]

That's exactly what I said.

[fading shard]

To give some backstory

we don't really get much loreo n prime hallownest

[vague whale]

Because then it'd be the Battle of Palewyrm :edgeworthsmirk:

[fading shard]

we know of it's downfall and creation

[molten python]

Worldbuilding.

[fading shard]

And the living conditions

[whole holly]

i really want seth to be protagonist, would be as great as quirrel, maybe

[fading shard]

but with it's battles and stories we don't know much

[whole holly]

unfinished

[fading shard]

so having at least one mention of a battle is good

[deft tendon]

im not sure hes okay

[silk dirge]

what if we get a sharpe game

[fading shard]

He deserves this

[molten python]

Alive at least.

[silk dirge]

dont do drugs kids

[fading shard]

A quirrel prequel is what the community have been talking about as of late

[deft tendon]

sharpe is a backer, he'll be in dlc content prolly

[whole holly]

that would genuinely be great

[fading shard]

and I get why

hallownest has a lot more mysteries left compared to pharloom

[edgy barn]

I have the conspiracy theory that the sharpe backer requested for him to not be included in silksong because they are making their own game with him on it.

[vague whale]

Are you sure that you will be?

[fading shard]

The most confusion one could have on pharloom would be the timeline and even then it can be pieced together quite well

[vague whale]

I have the non-conspiracy theory that there just isn't Sharpe

[fading shard]

hallownest on the other hand has a ton of content left to be exploed

[molten python]

There's still a lot we don't know about the timeline.

[molten python]

Makes sense since Pharloom is a dying kingdom while Hallownest is a long dead kingdom.

[whole holly]

sure, but i don't think it can get expanded to match other two games TC made, would not meet fan expectations, outside hardcore fandom that plays for lore, what would DLC even be? how would healing work, they would be limited with mechanics they can introduce because quirrel is mortal bug

[whole holly]

we got comic and he was not in kingdom but wastes, what would story be there, nothing but survival?

[fading shard]

prime hallownest was basically a completely different area compared to the one we have now

and people have really wanted to see hallownest as the infection freshly started

[molten python]

I have a feeling that the next game might be something different.

[whole holly]

prime hallownest? i didn't know that was your idea, i thought it would be game version of comic, but some people won't want to revisit hallownest other than people who play for lore

[whole holly]

Sharpe, Grimm, Lace, Seth are all great contenders, Lace and Seth less so but still

[molten python]

Problem is we know most of the map.

[fading shard]

not really my idea

[whole holly]

yeah, that is core issue i brought up

[fading shard]

more so what I keep hearing be suggested

[silk dirge]

another potential for a new hk game would be a completely unrelated kingdom

[fading shard]

atp why would we even care

[molten python]

It's unlikely but THK going out and exploring post-HK would be cool.

[whole holly]

yes, but protagonist issue persists, other than Sharpe, i can't see who they would expand on enough to make full fledged game

[whole holly]

yeah, i agree

[silk dirge]

theres also the potential second hornet game mr mushroom could be hinting at saying hornets actions may hail him again in the future

[fading shard]

with pharloom we at least had the tie in to the weavers

what would we have in a totally unrelated kingdom

[whole holly]

same reason why we cared for first game, it was completely new idea and fresh

[silk dirge]

but i highly doubt that dialog actually means anything

[whole holly]

?

[fading shard]

at what point would just going to a new kingdom over and over again just start being boring

[whole holly]

oh yeah, you were refering to this

[fading shard]

Steel city is the only real place I'm interested in going to

[edgy barn]

Maybe we will get the tie-in the dlc? Weaversong and the Weaver's Den were added in the Grimm Troupe.

[fading shard]

and there's a reason the most popular suggestion people have been making was a quirrel prequel

[deft tendon]

it'd be cool if there was an ending for beating lost lace while overdosed on plasnium

[whole holly]

unless game is different enough, i don't agree with you

[silk dirge]

"If any other could come to understand that state, Wyrm child, I suspect it may be you...
Though maybe not yet, not this present, hmmm? Maybe in a future far, when your actions might hail me so again?"

[fading shard]

I mean there has to be a reason why the most popular future hollow knight game suggestion is a quirrel prequel

The only other one was bloody zote boat

[fading shard]

and that one was a joke by the community for the most part

[edgy barn]

I find it interesting how Mr. Mushroom is the only character that straight up calls Hornet a wyrm. Most either just treat her a weaver or as a hybrid.

[molten python]

City of Steel.
Blackbarrens.
Sandsea Waste.

[silk dirge]

city of steel is probably dlc

[fading shard]

Okay I forgot but what are the blackbarrens

[molten python]

Both Blackbarrens and Sandsea Waste seem like barren wastelands.

[fading shard]

and when did they get mentioned

[silk dirge]

the others dont seem like interesting locations

[molten python]

A place where a Weaver descendant was captured, like Hallownest, City of Steel, and Sandsea Waste.

[edgy barn]

The reason is that we do not have much better options with the info we currently have. That doesn't mean the quirrel prequel idea is very good in itself.

[vague whale]

Because we WANT Zoteboat

[fading shard]

Okay when

Did I forget something

when was blackbarrens mentioned or the sandsea waste

hell when was the city of steel mentioned to have had a weaver captured

[silk dirge]

same room as steel city

its a room in cradle

its not even a secret room

[molten python]

"Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service. Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel. Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task."
"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, mortally wounded. Tracked and taken in the Blackbarrens. Four Choristors, one Reed lost to task."
"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, frail with age. Tracked and taken in Sandsea Waste. Seven Choristors, nine Envoys lost to task."

[rain gate]

not a weaver, the child of a weaver

[molten python]

This is the Choral Commandment for Hornet:
"Full Chamber to the kingdom of the White Wyrm. Claim the Weaver, in half part. Last of their line. Sensed strong with Silk. Resistance anticipated. Quell with rune cage."

[rain gate]

also the city of steel one lost the most (other than hornet) probably not because of the weaverspawn, but because of the steel assassins

[fading shard]

wait this was a choral commandment

[molten python]

Not those, those are from lore tablets.

[edgy barn]

No it's lore tablets

[rain gate]

the hornet one was
the others were lore tablets inc radle

[fading shard]

ah

[fading shard]

the choral commandment I've read

I've gotten all relics after all

[fading shard]

Huh wonder where I missed those lore tablets from

or where I forgotten about them as I honestly find both to be likely

[molten python]

They were in the Cradle. Not secrets exactly, but missable.

[fading shard]

man I find it to be a 50/50 chance I just forgot reading them in that case

[lean temple]

That one specifically was underneath the City of Steel. Interesting to think of the steel faction defending against the Choir but idk why they would do such a thing, I mean defending the part Weaver specifically. I don't believe the Masters would care much.

[whole holly]

but maybe weaverspawn joined steel hearts as a vassal

[edgy barn]

The weaverspawn was "staked to service" so they were a servant of some kind

[lean temple]

Possible

[molten python]

How do you know the steel faction defended against the choir? Maybe they didn't interfere, I mean the Weaverspawn was captured after all.

[lean temple]

They were talking about the high casualty count being because of the Steel assassins. I was questioning why they would interfere to protect the Weaver

[vague whale]

Yeah, I don't think the City of Steel had a great relationship with that Weaver if they had them staked to service beneath the city itself

[whole holly]

but they captured it away from steel city, so to extent they could defend against the citadel

[molten python]

When did they talk about a high casualty count? The casualty count isn't that different from the Weaver that was frail from age.

[fading shard]

how tf did that not piss off the masters in that case

[vague whale]

They captured it beneath the City of Steel, wdym

[whole holly]

yeah, most likely transactional relationship, Steel Hearts do have zero-ish emotions

[lean temple]

Read the original msg I was replying to

[fading shard]

And getting grand mother silk turned into a simple steel construct

[rain gate]

they lost 20 vs 16

[molten python]

Oh, mb.

[vague whale]

Transactional? That is really not what "staked to service" implies

[whole holly]

beneath is not in City of Steel therefore away

[molten python]

They lost 16 to a Weaver frail with age. It's not hard to imagine losing a few more to one who was younger.

[lean temple]

I mean I guess encroaching on their territory in any way could piss of the Masters

[vague whale]

Just... no

[whole holly]

i doubt they cared much, about weaverspawn, they probably say them as liability possibly

[vague whale]

When has a kingdom in this world not had attached structures directly beneath it

[fading shard]

thaT was what I was talking about yes

[molten python]

All the kingdoms we know of are underground.

[whole holly]

it is clear what i mean, distinction is not meaningful

[fading shard]

Listen from we heard of the masters they'd screw over a higher being for the simplest thing

[vague whale]

The distinction is very meaningful because you're wrong here

[vague whale]

Yeap, exactly

[whole holly]

if it was underneath city of steel then it wasn't in city of steel

[fading shard]

So idk how the hell going into their territory didn't result in them making grand mother silks life HELL

[lean temple]

Also Sula talks about "the spires... and beneath" so that could be where the Weaver was at?

[whole holly]

again, i misworded, what relevance does it have?

[rain gate]

that it wasnt in the city proper and was "staked to service" most likely on the outskirts or in the underworks equivalent

[lean temple]

Yeah I assume the spires are above and then there's something beneath

[vague whale]

That this weaver was staked to service below the main city, which could be an incredibly similar situation to the Underworkers

[whole holly]

yeah, but i doubt underneath of City of Steel was defended to same extent, it implies infiltration

[lean temple]

They would have their reasons. Remember they are already watching Pharloom so probably they want GMS uncompressed

[whole holly]

word "could" should be empathized not "incredibly" in your sentence

[fading shard]

Why would they want that?

Wouldn't they be pissed off by her actions

[lean temple]

No clue. But they are watching Pharloom for some reason. They sent Zi to observe

[fading shard]

here's a question why is hallownest seemingly known by every faction

[molten python]

Why should we empathize with words?

[fading shard]

Everybody seems to know of hallownests existence, have you guys noticed that

[lean temple]

Perhaps but I think they're more long game players so they let it slide for Pharloom's to continue

[rain gate]

more hbs than normal

[molten python]

Quite a prosperous and powerful kingdom in its prime.

[lean temple]

Many HBs, and a full blown Pale Wyrm to boot

[whole holly]

word "could" is more important in this context

[empty scarab]

Are dung defender and trobbio related their fights are so similar

[fading shard]

I wonder if the masters would have considered prime hallownest a threat

[fading shard]

well more then otherlocations

[molten python]

I was kidding, you wrote "empathize" instead of "emphasize."

[covert tusk]

The citadel pushing and persecuting the Skarr out of their own domain (the far fields), yet doing what even their shunned would do on a much larger scale

[lean temple]

Jiji and Jinn have been there for a while. Probably not a threat but a point of interest

[whole holly]

wow, autocorrect didn't correct it, for some reason

[empty scarab]

You can't say the fights aren't similar tho

[lean temple]

They are "impressed" with Voidheart TK so I think they had reasons to observe Hallownest

[molten python]

I can, they aren't that similar.

[empty scarab]

They are

[fading shard]

They are not

Idk how they are close to similar

[lean temple]

Well I believe they're the kind to crush any possible threat, but I also believe nothing much could even pose a threat to them at this point.

[empty scarab]

Just the gameplay

[molten python]

Yeah, no, not really.

[empty scarab]

:(

[fading shard]

I mean to every kingdom we heard of and faction hallownest was the most powerful

and the most prosperous

(not counting the masters and city of steel)

[molten python]

They had a good economy too and didn't have anti-homeless architecture like Pharloom. Imagine having to pay 100+ rosaries just to sit on a bench.

[lean temple]

Ig but the only other civilization we know details on is Pharloom. We don't know if other lands were also powerful in their own ways. Though ig Hallownest with many HBs and two whole Pale Beings was definitely a point of interest.

[fading shard]

Tbf the pale king was one of the best higher beings we know of

[covert tusk]

I mean sort of but also not really
Heavy reliance on projectiles as the main opponent dives and ducks out of cover, meaning you need to lay on as much damage as possible before they hide away again behind their bullets

[molten python]

Also the fact that Hallownest has won wars.

[fading shard]

Like seriously a pretty decent guy arvin

[covert tusk]

But like, the actual WAY you fight them is way different

[lean temple]

And Pharloom itself is pretty divided. The kingdom was built to trap its god. At least Hallownest had the full support of PK

[empty scarab]

I mean what would be the point of a war with pharloom

I mean look at the kingdom

[fading shard]

I mean grand mother silk screwed over all the existing civilizations

[covert tusk]

And even those who didn’t wanna join were at least on good terms (the mantis tribe are chill and don’t cause trouble, Deepnest is far enough from everyone to not be an issue, the Hive is entirely isolated)

[fading shard]

in pharloom

[fading shard]

I mean the pale king was a pretty good king

[fading shard]

though he did have beef with deepnest

[fading shard]

Like saying he did not have problems with the weavers would be a lie

[molten python]

Not the best dad but he certainly cared about Hallownest.

[fading shard]

though it's up in the air if they showed up after or before the foundation of hallownest by the pale king

[covert tusk]

Yeah I’m agreeing, I’m saying that as a compliment vs what happens when you don’t comply in Pharloom (the skarr, the coral tower, the stilkin, the verdanians)

[lean temple]

Yeah but if she woke up she was gonna wreck the Citadel. Just artillery the Citadel to set her free and enjoy as she wreaks havoc. Even if she just repurposes everything I don't think she'd be free to lead war against Hallownest.

[fading shard]

The pale kings army is stronger in every way to everyone in pharloom

[lean temple]

The Weavers themselves are problematic to almost everyone around them. Them staying in deepnest was better for everyone.

[molten python]

Yep. The Mosskin were still free to have their shrine and worship Unn too.

[sinful nimbus]

There wasn't really any beef with deepnest they just never joined Hallownest

[fading shard]

...........there was beef

[lean temple]

Not with the Weavers ig, the wild bugs were still aggressive

[molten python]

There was a bit of beef, like with the tram thing.

[sinful nimbus]

Well the tram was attacked by Dirtcarvers which are not sapient

[fading shard]

herrah led them though

[lean temple]

Ig at least in Hallownest it's realistic the other factions would join up with PK to defend. In Pharloom everyone still sane would want the Citadel to fall

[sinful nimbus]

The actual civilized residents of Deepnest had diplomatic relations with Hallownest

[covert tusk]

The deciding factor imo is the Fourth Chorus guys. I think Hallownest could hold off against the Citadel’s soldiers, most of them fight like City of Tears guards, and the few big guys are on Kingsmold level in terms of combat
But how does Hallownest, who’s relatively tame in industrial elements, tackle their equivalent of Metal Gears

[lean temple]

She didn't lead the aggressive predators there, which still caused problems. The Weavers themselves never attacked.

[fading shard]

Ehh fair enough

[fading shard]

Pale king himself can take them on

I think you forget the pale king himself is still one of the strongest higher beings we met

[lean temple]

They had the mining bots. Also Choruses aren't that crazy since Seamstress could take one on

[covert tusk]

The failed tram
They could have just shoo’d them off but they were slaughtered, and the Mantis Tribe actively guard Deepnest’s entrance
They weren’t constantly fighting but there’s a reason Herrah asked for a child to take the deal instead of just doing it (besides just wanting to be a mother)

[fading shard]

He might be one of the kindest and least problematic ones

[lean temple]

Just have Hegemol chuck a boulder at a chorus and it would be down

[covert tusk]

Probably I just kinda forgot cuz he’s so small when we see him lmao

[sinful nimbus]

Dirtcarvers are wild animals

[fading shard]

he trained the pure vessel

and is canonically stronger then the five great knights combined

he absolutely demolishes the fourth choruses

[fading shard]

He's a person who's diplomatic in nature

[covert tusk]

I feel like mining bots don’t count entirely because they weren’t designed for combat, even if mining tools could for sure be used IN combat
However yeah if seamstress can take one down and we can that early game they probably aren’t that bad, it’s literally just the numbers is all

[fading shard]

I think you're forgetting how stacked the hallownest army is

it's not even a competition

the hallownest army for one was a lot stronger and more skilled and second they were far bigger

[fading shard]

the pharloom choir only dealt with small uprisings

[molten python]

Do we know they were only attacked by Dirtcarvers? Since it says that the efforts of the kingdom to expand in Deepnest were met with furious resistance, and that the creatures of Deepnest completely rejected the Pale King's rule. We also know that the Spider tribe had an enmity with the Mantis tribe.

[fading shard]

the hallownest army went to wars

[sinful nimbus]

I mean you can visit the tramway yourself its all dirtcarvers

[molten python]

It's all dirtcarvers now. The actual events happened long ago.

[fading shard]

that is true

[covert tusk]

That makes me think actually, the choir is more of a police state army. They’re soldiers meant to be cops, which simply aren’t meant to be unless you want tyranny
Vs Hallownest who had clearly designated guards for the people (the city of tears guards) and designated soldiers (5 great knights, the kingsmoulds)

[sinful nimbus]

Clearly the spiders were not all inherently opposed to Hallownestians because there's a stagway in the Distant Village and they had diplomatic relations with Hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

Well that's unsubstantiated

[hoary echo]

What the hell is the deal with Zi in Steel Soul mode?

[covert tusk]

Pharloom is militarized against its own people, Hallownest is militarized against kingdoms like Pharloom

[molten python]

What's unsubstantiated? The fact that these events happened long before Hollow Knight?

[sinful nimbus]

That the spiders were involved in attacking the tramway

[fading shard]

I mean it's the weavers

[lean temple]

That and Pharloom could probably be bribed to betray the Choir because of how awful they are. It isn't crazy to think it'd be not too difficult to turn most of Pharloom against the citadel

[covert tusk]

I mean there’s more pointing to that than them being passive (again, the clear beef)

[sinful nimbus]

What beef

[lean temple]

Exactly

[molten python]

I never said the spiders were involved with attacking the tramway, I'm saying that your claim that only the dirtcarvers attacked the tramway is unsubstantiated.

[sinful nimbus]

That is the default assumption

[fading shard]

listen even if all of pharloom atacked hallownest it wouldn't have been a close battle

[molten python]

I did say that the spiders were enemies of the mantises, which is confirmed.

[fading shard]

the knights of hallownest are simply stronger in every way

[lean temple]

She's a Steelheart like Jinn. Sent to Pharloom to observe for the Masters. Lost her vassal so wants you to find them for her.

[sinful nimbus]

Mantes aren't Hallownest

[fading shard]

and even outnumber pharloom

most of pharloom are defenceless pilgrims

[covert tusk]

100000 bell throwers vs one wingsmold who wins/j

[molten python]

It says that the residents of Deepnest were against the Pale King, do you think they're only referring to dirtcarvers?

[sinful nimbus]

Quirrel says that they never accepted the Pale King

Not that they were enemies

They clearly were allies

[fading shard]

I mean basically every faction didn't accept the pale king

[hoary echo]

And who exactly are the masters?

[fading shard]

but he still wanted to be chill with them

like the mantis tribe, mushrooms and hive

[sinful nimbus]

I can only really think of the spiders mantes and bees

[lean temple]

Yeah. Coupled by realistically the factions outside the King's could ally with him against Pharloom. Meanwhile everyone sane would wave good riddance to the Choir

[fading shard]

The mosskin and mushrooms?

[covert tusk]

I feel like there’s a difference in how someone like Unn wasn’t accepting of the PK’s rule vs Deepnest

[sinful nimbus]

Mosskin too not mushrooms though

[fading shard]

the mushrooms wre chill with him, they didn't accept him

[sinful nimbus]

"Warily shall we accept the will of the wyrm"

[fading shard]

or nevermind

the mushrooms did join the pale king okay

[lean temple]

The same Masters who Jiji and Jinn serve. We don't know much about them other than you probably wouldn't want to mess with them.

[fading shard]

okay speaking of the other factions can we appreciate how chill the pale king was to them

[sinful nimbus]

Its pretty analogous they both didn't join Hallownest but they were both open to collaborating with it

[fading shard]

he did everything in his power to respect their boundries

And wanted to have good relations with the other tribes that already existed

Like can we give him some credit on that

[covert tusk]

The Pale King colonizer belief is so funny in retrospect because dude that man could have ABSOLUTELY colonized all of Hallownest if he wanted to he just really prefers willing obedience vs forceful control unlike most other HB’s (besides Unn and the WL and maaaaaaaaybe Grimm but that’s debatable)

[molten python]

It doesn't sound like just non-sapient dirtcarvers to me.
"The kingdom made efforts to expand into this dark territory, but those efforts were met with ferocious resistance. The ruins of a tram station stand as a symbol of the conflicts that ended this expansion."
"The creatures of Deepnest completely rejected the Pale King's rule"
"...It couldn't be built..." "...this nest rejects us..."

[fading shard]

He just left the hive alone completely like they requested, respected and left alone the mantis tribe and made a deal with them in attempts to be chill, left the mosskin alone (except for what his wife did CURSE YOU QUEENS GARDENS) and the mushrooms were just super chill with him an the moth tribe just went of their way to join him

[sinful nimbus]

None of those quotes point to the sapient creatures destroying the tramway

[fading shard]

like am I wrong star

[lean temple]

And PK preserved the old ritual sites of the Moths atop crystal peak, and all the Radiance iconography

[fading shard]

I want your input

[sinful nimbus]

This seems correct

[covert tusk]

The only really bad thing he did (which is really bad but it’s not like he enjoyed or would have done it outside of the context he had to) was the baby murder lmao, other than that the dude was just funny cryptid

[sinful nimbus]

Mosskin also don't care about Queen's Gardens anyway

[molten python]

It doesn't explicitly mention that, that's what it implies to me though. And I don't think dirtcarvers are the default assumption since it's been the bug-equivalent of centuries.

[fading shard]

Yup

[sinful nimbus]

What

[fading shard]

The pale king was a good king

[sinful nimbus]

How does that imply it

[fading shard]

genuinely really good king can we all agree on that

[covert tusk]

Wait hold on how did it never hit me the crystal peaks were probably once moth territory or at least frequented by the moths, am I stupid lmao??

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah hallownest was a great kingdom unless you were poor 🗣️

[fading shard]

and he wasn't a colonizer too

[lean temple]

Meanwhile we know what the Choir did to the ruined chapel

[covert tusk]

I mean not everything can be perfect but like that doesn’t make him wholly bad

[fading shard]

I mean even those who were poor were okay

[lean temple]

They were not living in slums. They were middle class and still lived well

[sinful nimbus]

Such a great wealth divide is still not that great

[fading shard]

all of the people we do see who were of the lower class were living okay

[lean temple]

And that could've been just the aristocratic wing of the city, doesn't mean 50% of it was like that

[sinful nimbus]

And I'm a fan of PK but this aspect of his kingdom just isn't really defensible

[covert tusk]

The only who really suffered were the Maggots and they faced racial prejudice seemingly unrelated from anything the Pale King instituted (rather, a by product of the higher thought granted. The weakest in the food chain now being seen as lesser now that kill or be killed isn’t rule)

[lean temple]

Again it could've just been the rich neighbourhood or the rich city center, since it contains the Watcher spire and King Station too.

[molten python]

Do you think other areas don't have non-sapient violent creatures? Like vengeflies? Do you think the workers of Hallownest are unable to deal with dirtcarvers? If workers get attacked by a non-sapient creature, that doesn't sound like ferocious resistance and a huge conflict, and non-sapient creatures attack all bugs of other species, so how would it be a sign of the Pale King's rule being completely rejected by the creatures of Deepnest? Or are dirtcarvers the only creatures of Deepnest that matter?

[fading shard]

the maggots were genuinely treated like shit

my god even in a bug game racism exists

[sinful nimbus]

Dirtcarvers are on the tougher side

They overwhelm prey with their numbers as noted in the Hunter's Journal entry

[limpid summit]

How are menderbugs supposed to fight a Carver Hatcher

[lean temple]

Is bad definitely but still better than Pharloom where everyone is treated like shit.

[fading shard]

the racism man

[limpid summit]

I don’t think it was spiders who destroyed the tramway

[fading shard]

Racism is carzy in hallownest

[limpid summit]

There’s not hints of spider activity or architecture nearby

[molten python]

Why wouldn't they send guards with the workers to a dangerous place? Or do you think Hallownest only had menderbugs, no sentries?

[fading shard]

Well only to one specific group actually

Just the maggots

[molten python]

I never said it was the spiders specifically. The creatures of Deepnest in general.

[lean temple]

Arguably "beasts" too

[covert tusk]

Doing menial and grueling work for cheap because they were maggots, genuinely one of the few bad parts of Hallownest which was part of a bigger issue of classism, which while bad, is a by product of the free will entreated by the PK, rather than systematic cruelty from the government like Pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Its pretty obvious that the spiders were not entirely hostile to Hallownest like you seem to believe from the quote that they completely rejected the Pale King's rule. That either refers to the wild animals of Deepnest or the fact that the spiders remained independent from Hallownest

[fading shard]

I did just went to research a bit and the wealth devide isn't that stark in all honesty

the lower class side of hallownest has clear showcases of great life eitherway

[fading shard]

like if it's the crossroad settlements of the poorer side of the city of tears the living conditions for the lower class who weren't nobles was still good star

Like the housing, quality of life and entertainment was still very much so prevelant

[sinful nimbus]

I didn't claim the people on the left side of the city were living badly I only noted that there was a wealth gap

[fading shard]

I know but I'm just trying to state that even the poorer memberso f hallownest lived well

[covert tusk]

The wealthier did clearly have a better life and dirtier aspects they could get away with vs the common bug (no crimes greater than the Soul Santcum and whatever the Collector is doing), but these are issues that can still be lived decently through, even if they should be corrected. Like I could live in the City of Tears on the poorer side and still have a long, fine life
I can’t say the same if I was a pilgrim or an underworker vs if I was a choir member

[fading shard]

the wealthier absolutely did have a better life

[sinful nimbus]

tbf by the time the Soul Sanctum started committing crime Hallownest had probably already collapsed

[fading shard]

but the common bugs as you said still lived well

[fading shard]

That did happen after the infection started going ham

and after the pale kings several interventions

let's not ignore the soul tyrants anger on the pale kings interventions on his actinos

[lean temple]

That's almost inevitable

[fading shard]

Yeah the rich will always live better then the poorer

[covert tusk]

Well yes, but it’s a matter of how this could happen rather than when. The soul santcum was run by the wealthy who pulled the poorer in for testing. Yes it was a desperate act, but they could never have pulled it off if they didn’t have the status and money to set up such a big department and be able to wave Geo in front of your less fortunate bugs to become lab rats

[fading shard]

what can be done is making the poorer side have as good of a life as possible

[fading shard]

even if worse then the richer side

[fading shard]

they didn't do so by bribes

[sinful nimbus]

They weren't offering money to the poor like Cave Johnson they were just straight up killing people

[fading shard]

they did so against bugs will, it was mass murder

[covert tusk]

The cruelty of the soul santcum could only happen because of this wealth gap, but again there’s a difference between individual people who are better off abusing the system, than the entire system being against you

[fading shard]

yeah it was just straight up genocide

[fading shard]

it had to do with murder not money T_T

[covert tusk]

My mistake, but the point still stands even if some finer details are wrong

[spark valve]

where is the communist wyrm team cherry

[gentle aspen]

Dead

[vague whale]

the problem is capitalism

[fading shard]

dead, reduced to atoms

[fading shard]

communism isn't better

[covert tusk]

The battle of the black Wyrm……

[fading shard]

both are crappy

[molten python]

Collapsing, yes. From what I understand, they were still doing normal research before the infection started. Then they started most of the Soul stuff to stave off the infection, but the Pale King was against this.

[vague whale]

red wyrm

[fading shard]

no

the research and everything to do with ith happened when the infection started

[vague whale]

yea

[lean temple]

The elusive Red Wyrm

[fading shard]

it is stated to have been an idea implanted into the soul master

[fading shard]

After the infection started arvin

[lean temple]

Damn you beat me to it

[fading shard]

You mean the blue and red wyrm :>

[vague whale]

yea I did

[lean temple]

I have failed

[fading shard]

How dare you say that

[lean temple]

I jest

[fading shard]

you did not fail blue >:(

You are great man

[molten python]

I'm not talking about the Soul research specifically. Or was the entire research centre only created after the infection started and Hallownest was collapsing?

[covert tusk]

Side note we should move the slander of the PK onto Soul Master because PK slander is funny but doesn’t make sense anymore unlike that bulbous fuck Soul Master

[lean temple]

Anyway Soul Sanctum is a nice presentation of unethical academia that doesn't give a shit about morals

[fading shard]

that entire centre was started as an attempt to stop the infection

[molten python]

Source?

[vague whale]

no?

[covert tusk]

Soul Tyrant’s dialogue after you beat him

[lean temple]

Oh yeah he talks about using soul to cure the plague or smthg

[molten python]

How does that show that the entire research centre was non-existent before the infection? I'm not talking about the Soul research specifically.

[covert tusk]

The soul scholars thought the key to stopping the infection was through the soul, so they mass murdered hundreds of people to achieve higher power that ultimately just led them to have cool projectiles while infected

[lean temple]

Side note I like how Soul Master is like a giant tick who sucks the soul out of people (yeah yeah ik this may not be fully accurate)

[molten python]

Are you even reading what I'm saying? I am agreeing that they started researching Soul after the infection started.

[covert tusk]

Side note, the refight’s name being soul TYRANT
And the achievement for beating Khan also being named Tyrant, suggesting that the Crust King was probably also not the best of guys and that the Coral Gorge wasn’t ENTIRELY just warrior dude bros

[covert tusk]

Oh shit mb

[fading shard]

hilarious

[fading shard]

I mean pale king slander has kinda stopped

his character has been more and more accurately been representeed in the community

Some even are now overglazing him T_T

[molten python]

I disagree that the infection was spreading, the kingdom was collapsing, and during this time the scholars built a huge research centre without any construction workers or manpower since all the Soul research was opposed by the king.

[covert tusk]

I know I just mean we should slide it over onto Soul Master for shits and gigs instead of just cutting it entirely lmao

[fading shard]

Like listen I might have been the original pale king defender since 2022

[fading shard]

but like come on some people be turning the pale king into a saint

[sinful nimbus]

Soul Master my goat

[fading shard]

No....NOOOOOOOOO

[sinful nimbus]

Groal the Great could never

Also Soul Warrior changed his crest

[covert tusk]

He was a good guy but the baby slaughter still happened you gotta find that middle ground guys 😭

[fading shard]

yeah fair

[sinful nimbus]

That was part of a trolley problem though

[fading shard]

actually you know what that is fair

[whole holly]

do we know that?

[sinful nimbus]

No but its a solid theory

[fading shard]

yeah I agree, the pale king was for the most part a pretty solid and good guy but man

that trolley problem done him over

[molten python]

Yeah I made a mod to insert Soul Warrior into Silksong and Eva says that his nature is also malleable.

[whole holly]

even though he was actually net negative, hallownest region was kinda okay before pk's arrival

[sinful nimbus]

It fits well with how Hornet notes that assimilating another being into your crest can permanently change the identity of the bug

[fading shard]

XDD

[fading shard]

..........What

WHAT

[covert tusk]

Precisely, I’m not gonna judge his morals on an action he wouldn’t do outside of those conditions (either kill a bunch of your kids or let a bunch of innocent people die), but you still have to slightly judge him for it
Not saying he was a baby killing pro, just that there’s for sure blood on his hands

[whole holly]

wdym?

[fading shard]

what is your point here

That the pale king is bad

[covert tusk]

What are your opinions on Pharloom post Citadel 😭

[whole holly]

i like your pfp, where is it from?

[molten python]

Lord of the Mysteries.

[fading shard]

Things went to crap because of the radiance

[fading shard]

Not the pale king

[whole holly]

everybody involved is bad, GMS, Weavers and Citadel

[rugged storm]

I mean I won’t condone his actions but they didn’t have minds, so is it more like baking bread and letting the yeast all die to feed a starving family

[sinful nimbus]

You just need to shift your perspective. The Pale King is a glorious strong leader who was willing to make TOUGH and PERSONAL sacrifices if it meant preserving his Kingdom and its people

[fading shard]

I agree

I don't disagree with you star and I agree with you 100%

[whole holly]

that doesn't change fact that pale king was net negative and catalyst for infection, before him it was just hivemind for simple bugs and more peaceful like without infection harming anyone

[fading shard]

but no matter how we paint it those kids still got screwed

[covert tusk]

They only didn’t have minds because the actual kids were taken by the void before they lived, and then those vessels born from that hollowing died
Like the actual vessels dying doesn’t matter because by that point the deed is already done, it’s about scooping out all the natural living parts of the baby in the first place

[fading shard]

it wasn't a hivemind what?

[fading shard]

they were eggs

[molten python]

Probably just wants to say that they were unintelligent.

[covert tusk]

Would YOU be willing to live without a mind of your own if it was “safer”?

[whole holly]

i may have badly worded it but pale king was net negative that is my main point

[fading shard]

They were eggs steel

[rugged storm]

No

[covert tusk]

Exactly, and that’s what the Pale King agreed on too when he gave everyone sentience

[fading shard]

I mean ignoring the fact all the vessels othe then hollow knight were just up and confirmed to have a will

and were not hollow

[edgy nebula]

it is implied every vessel actually has a will, no?

[gentle aspen]

blaming the pale king for the infection is just weird

[rugged storm]

Yeah ig

[fading shard]

It is literally stated to our fac

[gentle aspen]

rad was the cause of that

[whole holly]

if other wa was solution that eventually resulted in deadly suffering in the end yes

[fading shard]

not even implied

[gentle aspen]

you can’t blame him for the actions of someone else

[vague whale]

For real, that's on the Radiance

[whole holly]

he was net negative he was catalyst

[gentle aspen]

that’s just weird

[gentle aspen]

No? The Radiance was the catalyst

[covert tusk]

Chat the infection is a hive mind too
You’re saying you’d rather be in a hive mind, then have free will and have someone else force you back into a hive mind 😭

[fading shard]

How wsa he the catalyst????????

He didn't even anger her that was the moth tribes fault

blame the tribe not him T_T

Seer even blames the tribe at the end not the pale king

[gentle aspen]

I mean clearly because he made the kingdom he’s the cause

[fading shard]

Listen to goddamn seer

[gentle aspen]

domino effect is a reasonable thing to assert obviously

[whole holly]

conquest for power resulted in infection , radiance reacted to being forgotten and acted in self-preservation which wouldn't happen without pale king

[fading shard]

He didn't do a conquest?

[covert tusk]

True, I’m just going on a tangent
The point I’m trying to make is yes it was a trolley problem, yes he didn’t like it, yes there was no other way, but you still have to sliiiiiightly judge the PK (and I’m saying that as one of his defenders)

[fading shard]

That isn't even accurate

[gentle aspen]

You realize how ass backwards this is right

[fading shard]

What conquest

[cedar skiff]

the pale king is... unethical?

[fading shard]

THERE WAS NO CONQUEST

[sinful nimbus]

OK but silksong does

[cedar skiff]

wow... i didnt know this..

[fading shard]

silksong doesn't??????

[covert tusk]

When is it stated he conquered Hallownest? When is it stated he was violent against anyone in Hallownest?

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong yaps on and on about the downstream affects of pale beings for no reason

[gentle aspen]

“It’s the fault of the guy who made the kingdom not the person who got forgotten by the first people of his kingdom and then went buckwild”

[whole holly]

catalyst is something that doesn't directly have effect but accelerates or intensifies chemical reaction, it is used metaphorically often

[sinful nimbus]

Slandering my goat PK and WL in the process

[gentle aspen]

it still metaphorically doesn’t work because you’re absolving rad of her involvement and putting the blame squarely on someone else

[cedar skiff]

how did it slander wl

[fading shard]

he literally went out of his way to form positive relations with the existing tribes

[whole holly]

my point is that he was net negative, counterpoints don't really apply to my argument

[molten python]

I've seen people claiming that Hallownest fell to the void and the Pale King is responsible for the fall of Hallownest simultaneously lol.

[sinful nimbus]

You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow

[gentle aspen]

like I’m not gonna claim the pilgrims of plymouth rock were the cause of the civil war lmao

that’s just erroneous reasoning

[cedar skiff]

why did she say that is she stupid

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[whole holly]

i am not though, radiance did play part in that but not without pale king putting her in that offensive position

[gentle aspen]

Very

[vague whale]

"Counterpoints don't really apply to my argument" brumm moment

[sinful nimbus]

If Hornet has no haters I am dead 🗣️

[fading shard]

"the subjugation and assumption of control of a place or people by military force."

[fading shard]

THAT IS THE DEFINITIONO F A CONQUEST

there was no subjugation

or a place being taken by force

[gentle aspen]

“Did play a part in that”
Gang she is the DIRECT SOURCE AND CAUSE

[cedar skiff]

i think anything hornet says in a verdania/green prince context is just nonsensical considering that whole plotline makes zero sense for her in universe

[gentle aspen]

stop absolving her of what she did

[molten python]

Devotion, destruction, or breeding.

[fading shard]

Every single nation and tribe that existed were left alone by the pale king

[whole holly]

pale kings influence was deadly for radiance as it led her to being forgotten, radiance reacted to that, i am not implying she was right to do so, i am just acknowledging what happened

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet when she needs to kill a gay man because she's bored

[fading shard]

What influence

The pale king did not manipulate the tribe

They were said to go out of their way to join him

[covert tusk]

Hey dude what about the moth tribe
Yknow
The moth tribe?
The tribe of moths
For the moth goddess
The moth tribe who left her
WILLINGLY
That moth tribe
What’re your opinions on the moth tribe?

[cedar skiff]

AND displays his heart as a trophy

[fading shard]

there was no manipulation

[cedar skiff]

masterful gambit team cherry

[gentle aspen]

Hornet after getting three hearts and deciding to murder karmelita anyways for no good reason

[sinful nimbus]

I used Green Prince's heart for the spell on my playthrough

[fading shard]

WTF

[sinful nimbus]

Which means Karmelita is the one I killed for no reason (Which is worse because it destroys Far Field's ecosystem)

[cedar skiff]

the dialogue for that is funny too bro has no idea why she did that herself

[fading shard]

Nika wtf are you saying

[whole holly]

yes but as i already said but not without pale king putting her in that position where her other choice was being forgotten which meant death for her

[cedar skiff]

"difficult to say i was lowkey bored"

[fading shard]

the pale king DIDN"T PUT HER IN THAT POSITION

[gentle aspen]

The moths put her in that position, not the Pale King

[fading shard]

exactly

[whole holly]

well, he grabbed her followers

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet: They will wither and fade... And you may sadly know it was my needle that brought her end.

Gilly: You, miss? But why? Why destroy something so vital?

Hornet: It is a difficult thing to explain simply... A test was needed, to ensure my strength before a greater challenge soon to come.

[edgy nebula]

“i did for a test of strength for a challenge soon to come”

[fading shard]

He didn't grab anything

[vague whale]

He literally didn't

[fading shard]

they went of their way to join him T_T

[covert tusk]

So it’s the Pale King’s fault for being charismatic??

[whole holly]

moth who followed pale king

[charred nimbus]

What is the dialogue if you defeat Carmelita after doing the Everbloom quest?

[gentle aspen]

😐

[molten python]

That was funny. She killed Karmelita just to test her strength lol.

[fading shard]

seer literally said they joined him out of their own volition

[vague whale]

The Pale King didn't make them follow him

[gentle aspen]

Star just sent it

[fading shard]

VOLITION

[cedar skiff]

the intended route is somehow the worst for pharlooms ecosystem. with killing the prince u at elast kinda allow verdania to start regrowing

[fading shard]

Youk now what "doing something out of ones volition" means

[cedar skiff]

yes a stupid as hell reason

[edgy nebula]

most of what hornet does is stupid as hell

[whole holly]

i am not said it is his fault but he was factually net negative for hallownest, while for radiance you can argue she wouldn't have been if not for pale king who replaced her

[fading shard]

So are we gonna ignore most of what his arrival brought

[covert tusk]

“I’m not saying it’s his fault but I’m saying if he wasn’t here this would never had happened”

[molten python]

Net negative for Hallownest? He established Hallownest.

[vague whale]

PK was actually pretty good for Hallownest. Radiance, on the other hand, who basically killed everyone,

[whole holly]

fine whatever was before then, but point still applies

[fading shard]

The pale king literally made the most succesful kingdom that we know of in the hollow knight universe

[vague whale]

Exactly like what is this guy even talking about

[whole holly]

he was net negative

[covert tusk]

Radiance killing everyone because her fan club likes forks better than lamps (how could the Pale King do this💔💔💔💔)

[vague whale]

No the hell he wasn't

[covert tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/wall-gif-24534315

[molten python]

We can't really know that for sure. It might have actually been a net positive, because there's many other factors that we are unaware of. What if, I don't know, the Blackwyrm took over the land of Hallownest? You can't just assert that he was a net negative.

[whole holly]

radiance was reacting to being replaced, she appeared in bugs minds but pale king then sealed her, then she started getting more aggresive

[fading shard]

the pale king didn't seal her

[vague whale]

Again the Pale King was actually really pretty good for Hallownest

[fading shard]

That never happened T_T

[sinful nimbus]

Thanks team cherry

[fading shard]

What sealing???????

[covert tusk]

The radiance started doing shit, and the pale king stopped it
And it’s the pale king’s fault somehow?

[whole holly]

Blackwyrm?

[spark valve]

pk's arrival caused infection but that doesn't mean he's culpable

[sinful nimbus]

"Restore hope to a haunted kingdom"

[whole holly]

her being inside hollow knight was not natural occurence, it was action made by PK, wth

[fading shard]

you didn't hear of the blackwyrm

[molten python]

The Battle of the Blackwyrm, it's a battle that was won by the kingdom of Hallownest.

[covert tusk]

Yeah
The battle of the blackwyrm
A war the pale king fought and WON to save Hallownest
Oh but he’s a net negative if I remember correctly

[fading shard]

........That happned after the infection

[whole holly]

but who said it is being?

[fading shard]

The hollow knight appeared and was made after the infection

[vague whale]

Radiance could've just decided to be nicer to the Moths to gain back their worship instead of, idk, killing everyone

[spark valve]

I mean I don't think that would've worked

[fading shard]

WAS THE HOLLOW KNIGHT SEALING A BAD THING?

[vague whale]

That happened only because the Radiance decided to try to kill everyone

[fading shard]

what you wanted the infection to grow rampant

[fading shard]

the vessels are the reason the radiance was stopped

it is litearlly said her infection and influence would have just grown

[covert tusk]

Or if she actually really cared about being forgotten, why not just spare the moths from your slaughter
Oh wait
We only see ONE living moth
I wonder why that is

[whole holly]

which wouldn't have happened without pale kings arrival

[vague whale]

Can you please just stop at this point mate

[molten python]

I understand your point though. This is not about blame or responsibility, net negative is only about the difference in circumstances between the Pale King arriving and not arriving in the land of Hallownest.

[spark valve]

the moths forgot her that was the betrayal

[vague whale]

For real she's just kinda terrible

[whole holly]

infection didn't exist before pale king, pale king was net negative

[cedar skiff]

on everybody in ss lores soul yes EVERYBODY we are getting an epilogue dlc where we actually restore hope to pharloom

[covert tusk]

I’m not talking about the moths I’m talking about The Radiance, SHE could have spared the moths and tried again with no competition, but she was so mad she killed at EVERYONE instead

[fading shard]

I mean we'd have to ignore 99% of the pale kings history in hallownest which was nothing but great

[vague whale]

The Pale King. Did not. Cause the Infection. The Radiance did that. This is entirely the Radiance's fault

[fading shard]

Like 1% of the time he was in hallownest resorted in something bad

[trim prairie]

and the bosses are steel kingdom enemy’s on war with pharloom 🥹

[molten python]

He isn't saying that the Pale King is to blame.

[cedar skiff]

and the bit with the green prince was only retroactively added too

[deft tendon]

pk took her followers

[cedar skiff]

i love silksong but this is one of those utterly nonsensical parts

[fading shard]

No.......

[whole holly]

which was destroyed by infection that wouldn't have happened if not for pale king being overall net negative for bugs of Hallownest(not kingdom, region, whatever was before then)

[covert tusk]

Who caused the infection
The radiance

Now, who

• created civilization in Hallownest
• created public transportation
• fought wars for Hallownest
• sacrificed his children for Hallownest
• was adored and loved by the people of Hallownest
• Didn’t kill people who disagreed with him in Hallownest

The pale king

[vague whale]

He's not saying it in those exact words for plausible deniability reasons, but yes, he is

[whole holly]

i never said he did, he was net negative

[deft tendon]

yes.....

[fading shard]

He didn't

[trim prairie]

no cost too great

[sinful nimbus]

It also feels strange for a quest about seeing the ecosystems lost to the Citadel and its effects on the environment to have one of those ecosystems come back all fine

[fading shard]

The moth tribe joined him out of their own volition

[sinful nimbus]

Like that's just not thematically cohesive

[whole holly]

i never said pale king caused infection, i am saying pale kings arrival was net negative

[vague whale]

The moths actively chose to follow the Pale King, PK did not force them to do that

[deft tendon]

people folled radiance, pale king came, radiance followers followed pk, radiance became forgotten

[covert tusk]

Look at my fucking list again and tell me even half of that is negative you brick wall of a person

[vague whale]

You're saying it's net negative because it caused the infection, dude

[whole holly]

he chose to establish kingdom where higher being already resided, did you expect them to react well to being forgotten as result?

[heavy gyro]

Maybe since the prince is cursed, his death caused the curse to be uplifted and verdania can recover

[fading shard]

the moth tribe were the only one thaT followed the radiance

and seer states they did so out of their own volition not out of the pale kings influence

[molten python]

He did say that he isn't saying the Pale King is at fault.

[cedar skiff]

honestly the verdania bit might be some sort of dlc build up as much as i dont believe it so i might eat my own words but it really just feels like they retroactively added it after the backlash for hornet just randomly killing a gay couple for no fucking reason

[sinful nimbus]

I mean tbf it does give GP closure

[cedar skiff]

i mean considering how quickly bosses got nerfed after people complained it likely didnt fly under their radar

[fading shard]

he established his kingdom on non other land ground

[sinful nimbus]

I think it'd be cool if you could use the extra heart for something else though

[vague whale]

He's saying that, but literally that is not his point. He's just randomly saying that to say we're wrong

[whole holly]

pale kings arrival and him gathering follower where radiance already existed , basically out competing radiance, caused infection

[fading shard]

the lands owned by other tribes were left alone

[fading shard]

unless they joined him

[vague whale]

Quite literally his argument is that this is the Pale King's fault

[cedar skiff]

i really dont want a boss rush dlc first over stuff that could fix some gripes i have with the story

[lean temple]

Well Unn and all the other factions didn't see omnicide against everyone else a good option. Radiance is the outlier here

[cedar skiff]

and i dont give a fuck about steel lore either.

[molten python]

Net negative doesn't make it his fault.

[vague whale]

Based

[deft tendon]

the pale king spent budget on sawblades, its his fault the kingdom came to ruin

[fading shard]

tbf the pale king left all those other factions alone

[covert tusk]

The boss rush dlc should be last so everything else can trickle in

[sinful nimbus]

DLC ain't fixing ts 🥀

[fading shard]

you know that blue

[molten python]

They were a necessary expense, no cost too great.

[whole holly]

argument isn't that actually, him being net negative doesn't make anything his fault

[vague whale]

Pale King left the moths and Radiance alone too

[fading shard]

well true

[lean temple]

He also didn't force the Moths' hand. Radiance should've known they could betray her. She made them.

[heavy gyro]

then he's more like a net zero, since without him, hallownest wouldn't even exist

[vague whale]

Moths actively chose to follow PK themselves, it's not PK's fault at all

[cedar skiff]

i think it could tbh its not hard to fill some minor gaps

of course act 3 being faulty pacing is something that wont go away

[fading shard]

I mean he didn't even really manipulate them

they were said to join ihm out of their own volition

[lean temple]

That's what I'm saying

[cedar skiff]

same for like, lace not having enough screentime before the ending

but it could fix some inconsistencies if they lock in

[whole holly]

she is outlier being her being forgotten meant certain death, which is why i made that point and isn't applicable to unn, but unn did weaken and Queen's Gardens was annexed , before that it was greenpath

[vague whale]

yeah she kinda did need more

[cedar skiff]

and its all there considering just how much finished content was cut

[lean temple]

And tbh his existence did ultimately help save pharloom from GMS, with some casualties

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe there'll be a DLC where Hornet finally has a character arc

[silk dirge]

the humble and small plasmium update:

[fading shard]

queens gardens were cuased by the white lady

that was stated as much, NOT the pale king

[covert tusk]

THE PALE KING HAD MORE HEAD SPIKES THAN THE RADIANCE AND THIS FORCED THE RADIANCE TO KILL EVERYONE SO ITS THE PALE KING’S FAULT CUZ SHE HAD TO KILL EVERYONE CUZ HE HAD MORE SPIKES HE WAS A NET NEGATIVE AND SATAN REBORN

[cedar skiff]

dont wish this into existence

[trim prairie]

hollow knight

[vocal tulip]

I finally made it to act 3, and I have to know, are these nerds void?

[spark valve]

no

[cedar skiff]

no they arent bye

[fading shard]

What

[covert tusk]

Nah they just really like void

[fading shard]

WHAT

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet regresses from her character in HK

[trim prairie]

the spikes have to mean something though because gms has 1/2

[whole holly]

no he is net negative, his arrival resulted of eradication of life from hallownest , life existed before him , not blaming anything on him, but effects of his actions were that sadly

[fading shard]

no they just like it

[deft tendon]

THE SAWBLADES ARE THE PURE VESSELS "No cost too great. No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering"

[dusk harness]

I dunno the consensus seems to be no?

[silk dirge]

pk sawblades are a dream defense system similar to inception

[deft tendon]

CONTAIN THE RADIANCE IN A SAWBLADE

[vague whale]

TRUE

[vocal tulip]

Infected sawblades? No thank you

[fading shard]

what about the 99% of the time he was there being only positive?

[cedar skiff]

plasmium and city of steel have to be the least interesting potential dlcs

[covert tusk]

That’s moreso a halo than it is a physical spike like these two

[silk dirge]

they are meant to protect important memories from being trespassed by people who shouldnt be there

[trim prairie]

red memory, she was bowing down to white lady which isn’t hornets character now

[sinful nimbus]

City of Steel is the most interesting because it has Sharpe

[deft tendon]

they cant get infected if pure
No cost too great. No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering

[dusk harness]

What’s a more interesting dlc from your point of view

[whole holly]

how does that answer my point, i never said it was done by PK, but they were literally married, so their Kingdom and rule caused that too

[fading shard]

you have to remembe that the infection arriving in hallownest was long LONG LONG after the pale kings arrival

[sinful nimbus]

What

[cedar skiff]

steel assassins would just be a rehash of hornet getting kidnapped to pharloom because shes half pale being lalala

[silk dirge]

tbh i kinda want to see how silksong with those crazy ass silkpost dlc maps would be for fun

[vague whale]

Plasmium DLC has the potential to be cool. Steel DLC would be boring since yall glaze Steel stuff to infinity and beyond so much already

[dusk harness]

Do we think we’re getting Sharpe or the Godhome-esque refight dlc first

[sinful nimbus]

Realistically yes because TC are bad writers but it could be better

[silk dirge]

theres like a few floating around and theyre all insane and probably not a good idea

[fading shard]

and I mean for the span of potentially thousands of years

[heavy gyro]

Sharpe first because retroactively adding him to a godhome equivalent would be weird

[vague whale]

Godhome cause we're never getting Sharpe

[covert tusk]

Bro literally no one agrees with you here and you are just repeating the same points over and over again, refusing to listen to anyone, why are you still talking😭

[fading shard]

or at the very least several centuries

[deft tendon]

just say you dont like silksong bro 😭

[sinful nimbus]

I don't like silksong

[fading shard]

and for all of those hallownest only flourished

[cedar skiff]

i would honestly just prefer more of the setting and characters we have established since silksong ends on such a open note like we really do not know what the fuck happens to this kingdom were supposed to be restoring hope to after the ending

[sinful nimbus]

(I do but I like hating on the story)

[fading shard]

and life there was significantly improved

[dusk harness]

Then why are you in the Silksong lore channel

[deft tendon]

peak story tho

[fading shard]

only a very miniscule portion of all of that history was the infection around

[whole holly]

he was, i am not arguing against that but compare region where hallownest would be established before PK arrived and Hallownest after his death, there was presumable more life in before than after PK, i am not judging his actions but effect of his existence on world of Hollow Knight, it isn't moral judgement

[silk dirge]

you just got baited

[sinful nimbus]

To discuss the story and lore

[dusk harness]

In all fairness Hollow Knight was also an incredibly open story with not much concrete payoff and did we get that expanded on in DLC? Not really instead we got new folks like the Grimm Troupe and the godseekers

[deft tendon]

if you dont like the story why discuss it lmfao

[cedar skiff]

the difference is the hollow knight endings and narrative work well with en ending like that

[covert tusk]

Cool. You win. Now can you shut up?

[fading shard]

can you word this differently I don't really understand what you're saying with this specific message

[fading shard]

now don't be rude

nika is being very respectful and I treat others as they treat me

[sinful nimbus]

For fun? I like the community and discussing lore is sometimes fun and it can also be fun to critique the game

[dusk harness]

Your pfp is beautiful

[whole holly]

i am not breaking channel rule, this channel is for discussion in fact, i never pleaded for anyone to agree with me, i am not repeating same points over over again i have to clarify because it is often misrepresented, stop attempting to stifle my opinion and my self-expression and discriminating against me because i have different opinion than you

[fading shard]

I hope talking with me isn't annoying

[sinful nimbus]

Its not

[dusk harness]

You’re actually one of the most chill people in here I know

[upper copper]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1380233368523898991/1428835577649954896/image0.jpg?ex=68f49b14&is=68f34994&hm=a25e37d9b80420a3fc9bddc58a67740eb556fce35b6523457f01dc3514ba38be&

I’m gonna ask again. WHY did lace kill people??

[cedar skiff]

silksong is you restoring hope to a haunted kingdom yet you only somehow make everything worse in act 3 and you never see that get better ever . in act 3 there really isnt nothing to signal that shit is getting better like in act 2 youre at least actively rebuilding towns and saving people but act 3 is just misery galore and the ending doesnt show us much aftermath making a lot of other stuff very ineffective

[fading shard]

am I treating you poorly?

[fading shard]

I thought I was treating you with respect nika :<

I'm sorry if i wasn't

I even said that steel shouldn't be rude to you but

I'm sorry if I in anyway was discriminating against you

[sinful nimbus]

And the concept of a cool lively kingdom got cut 💔

[covert tusk]

I WISH I STILL HAD THE LINK TO IT ITS SO COOL LOOKING

[whole holly]

i am not making moral judgement , i tried to judge state of hollow knight's world from eyes of mortal bugs(stretching across history of hallownest and life before it), where life before PK's arrival was better than life after PK's death

[lean temple]

Sadistic murderer

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing wrong with dead kingdoms but its unfortunate the game we were advertised ending up being more interesting and unique than the one we got

[cedar skiff]

and honestly this feeling seems to be a general issue people seem to have rather than me whos super into the game and storytelling in general nitpicking. a lot of my casual fan friends also felt kinda empty after the ending hype wore off, like there was supposed to be more after that

[whole holly]

this is for person i was responding to, not you.

[fading shard]

okay thank god

[dusk harness]

The same way Hollow Knight ended with the infection dying out and the radiance being beaten, Silksong ends with the void-silk things also dying out and no more abyss stuff. If the implication is that Hallownest can rebuild at the end of HK (or at least that dirtmotuh can keep living as they are) then the same can be implied for Pharloom too

[cedar skiff]

for me personally its not enough to dimnish my overall enjoymenet but its one of those things where you sigh and look off into the distance thinking about what could have been

[deft tendon]

can we agree that having 4 legs is a mutation of abusing soul?

[fading shard]

okay so this is strictly after and before the pale kings arrival and death

[vague whale]

Nika isn't actually being respectful though they're arguing in incredibly bad faith

[deft tendon]

or atleast it mutates bugs that way

[fading shard]

not when he was actually ruling and alive in hallownest

[silk dirge]

plasmium update im just saying

[cedar skiff]

its diferent because hk and silksong are trying to tell two different stories

[sinful nimbus]

HK focused more on letting Hallownest rest than the possibility of the region flourishing again which was more a side thing

[cedar skiff]

hk was you exploring a dead kingdom it was never outright after the knight going to save it

[whole holly]

yes, that is what i meant to net negative, what else could person infer from this