sk-lore

[hazy iron]

"crystal peak"

[vestal swan]

The creatures of hollow Knight's universe and TC themselves just suck at naming things I mean just look at all the acronyms that overlap

[abstract rivet]

love how crystal peak also has the highest point of the game

[sinful nimbus]

I am aware but its obviously not the same as sands of karak or verdania

[covert night]

i love how two ancient and lost areas, karak and verdania break the naming conventions of hk

[abstract rivet]

what does citadel mean

[hazy iron]

big city/capital i think

[abstract rivet]

it means fortress that commands a city LMFAO

[edgy barn]

The best part about Hallownest Crown is pogoing on enemies to get there before you are supposed to.

[sinful nimbus]

SS? Did you mean: Sylphean Slug, Second Sentinel, Silksong, or Steel Seer

[stuck loom]

Yea verdania is just Latin for green (verde) + generic suffix (ania)

[vestal swan]

Cringe peak when dope as mt Fay exist

[stuck loom]

fancier

[covert night]

hell nah

[abstract rivet]

How about instead of destroyed kingdomslop, in holow knight 3 we explore a destroyed democratic state and the final boss are the senators of that state

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[vestal swan]

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah destroyed kingdomslop sucks

Give us a lively and vibrant kingdom like we deserve

[vestal swan]

I really need to update that

[stuck loom]

Bug AOC boss fight when?

[covert night]

i'm more of a restorationslop fan

[abstract rivet]

i mean yeah theres a judge to fortify it

[silk dirge]

donald silk

[sinful nimbus]

The restoration happens after the game is over 🥀

[covert night]

we'll get act 4 dlc trust

[abstract rivet]

vibrant? LIVELY? kingdom? In my poision swamp hell? absolutely not!

[sinful nimbus]

My beloved Bonebottom...

[abstract rivet]

Yeah I hated bone bottom

[robust wagon]

Oh my god green trobbio I'm your biggest fan

[sinful nimbus]

My glorious Bellhart that I spend HUNDREDS of rosaries on...

[abstract rivet]

I think the merchant there deserves it for those prices

[hazy iron]

epilouge act- forgotten godhome

[silk dirge]

i sure am ready for my fight against donald silk with help from conductor bernie

[stuck loom]

I wonder why they decided to cut the lively areas out

[sinful nimbus]

Story reasons

[stuck loom]

they tried a lot of new things with silksong but they didn't want to leave the dead kingdom

[sinful nimbus]

As for why they made a bad story who knows

[abstract rivet]

narrative of pharloom being depressing kingdomslop

[covert night]

i would post the gif but mods delete it on this channel...

[abstract rivet]

I think we'll see those cut areas in a dlc and it most likely means we will

[silk dirge]

radioactive trobbio

[stuck loom]

what emotion does he represent

[sinful nimbus]

Shellwood and the Citadel still look great though

[stuck loom]

Constipated Trobbio?

[silk dirge]

acute radiation syndrome

[sinful nimbus]

The entire game does it just sucks that we got a bit less variety than anticipated

[abstract rivet]

Far Fields shade of green I fucking hate its depressing

[silk dirge]

💀

[robust wagon]

Stoned

[vestal swan]

Crazy how TK is the little monster of the siblings and Hornet is the one to destroy a kingdom in like all 3 endings

[covert night]

i think there is vareity enough but we need more

[silk dirge]

ANOTHER ONE IS CRAZY

[sinful nimbus]

Well the kingdom is dead by the time the game starts

[abstract rivet]

What are those

[silk dirge]

LMAO

[silk dirge]

gambling ads

[vestal swan]

Scams that idiots clicked on and also got scammed

[abstract rivet]

Are we fucking deadass

[covert night]

millibelles bank account

[abstract rivet]

I clicked on the image lol

Bro are we fr advertising gambling in a gaming server

[silk dirge]

we get it bro you have rigged dice

[abstract rivet]

Like holly shit how desperate are you

[sinful nimbus]

gambling
gam ing

Its right in front of you

[abstract rivet]

wait what

[silk dirge]

im pretty sure those things have the mind of a fucking cogwork clapper or some shit and dont care where they are as long as they are posting gambling ads

in other words: its a bot

on a hacked account likely

[abstract rivet]

the owners of the bot must be desperate

[silk dirge]

yeah

i dont think they care where they are posting gambling ads tho

that person couldve gotten hacked on a completely different server idk

[vestal swan]

Move on from the idiots that fell for scams

[abstract rivet]

I used to see exploits that take yo shit if you clicked the image i hope thats not the case

[stuck loom]

Moss grotto is so whimsical, sucks what u get when u leave it

[sinful nimbus]

We're not allowed to talk about the pilgrims anymore?

[covert night]

i think it will feel completed with dlcs

[silk dirge]

sherma canonically is a hacked discord account

[abstract rivet]

moss grotto is basically 'wow this game is a cute bug game 🙂 nothing to worry about' Then you get to hunters march and then you change ur mind

[silk dirge]

me omw to las vegas with my pair of magnetite dice

[sinful nimbus]

Magnetite lore 🗣️

[hazy iron]

you get booted for weighted dice

[sinful nimbus]

Thank you for the magnetite lore team cherry we now know what floating platforms are

[silk dirge]

i feel like it has smth to do with the core(CELESTE REFERENCE???) of mt fay

[vestal swan]

I didn't even think about that applying to other platforms

[silk dirge]

bc thats where you get the materium entry from

[covert night]

magnetite and flying steel bug from white palace does almost the same thing

[abstract rivet]

I wish sadness and more misery to all pilgrims

[robust wagon]

Do you mean wingmoulds?

[vestal swan]

I laughed unreasonably hard when I started to go down to the abyss and the path on the left side of the deep docks had a floating platform fall onto another floating platform so it was two falling platforms stacked but still floating

[covert night]

yeah thats its name

[robust wagon]

Not Sherma :c

[vestal swan]

Wingsmoulds aren't steel

[sinful nimbus]

Best lore drops so far:
Magnetite
Sylphean slugs
Snail Shamans can break the veil
Weavers are all women
The Knight is an aura farmer

[silk dirge]

👵 🧵 💬

[robust wagon]

These and mr mushroom

[covert night]

then my entire theory was crumbled to dust

[sinful nimbus]

What did we get new about mr mushroom though

[abstract rivet]

How about we bind eva to lace

[vestal swan]

He's not in full control of his ability

[silk dirge]

mr mushroom im 90% sure is a meta character

[robust wagon]

Nothing really he's just in silksong and I like that :)

[vestal swan]

He gets so many visions he's actually confused about where he is most of the time

[sinful nimbus]

Too much gulka venom

[silk dirge]

and probably we should not care about his lore bc he is probably not a hk universe character

[sinful nimbus]

What

He makes meta references but so does Zote

[abstract rivet]

yeah hes gonna be the next protagonist for the third hollow knight

[vestal swan]

Despite him being stoned out of his mind and constantly having visions we had a solid conversation with him in this game he is very important

[silk dirge]

i mean as in he like would appear in a game not in the hk universe

[sinful nimbus]

Like Monhun crossovers

[covert night]

mr mushroom will be in gta 6

[vestal swan]

Him being a fifth dimensional character, or is it fourth, doesn't remove his importance

[robust wagon]

Nah he's 3rd dimensional lol

[vestal swan]

A shitpost that doesn't go here

[covert night]

i got so excited when i saw mushroom themed corridors in the ducts. i thought it was a new area

[silk dirge]

fungalwater ducts

[vital ruin]

I often see art of a green bug called pablo in Hk and SK
with no clue who tf it is 🤣

[vestal swan]

A shitpost

[stuck loom]

in silksong he's Mr. Nothingburger

[orchid whale]

You should really stop using that emoji lol

[vestal swan]

I wonder if his future sight is any way comparable to a wyrms

[vestal swan]

I would use the other one but they replaced it

[orchid whale]

I more mean because it’s kinda rude labeling what people say with a wrong sticker

[vestal swan]

Well it's wrong so?

[orchid whale]

Even if in this case it was a joke

[stuck loom]

i like each Weaver having an unique rib splinters design

[covert night]

he explains more stuff instead of saying cryptic things since hornet can say "wtf are you talking about"

[vestal swan]

We got a better explanation about how his stuff works and some actual real dialogue from him

[orchid whale]

Well yeah but it feels kinda condescending, like you’re not disagreeing or engaging in conversation, you’re just jumping straight to objectively labeling lol

[vestal swan]

Not everything has to be a conversation, some things are just objectively wrong

[sinful nimbus]

That's all silksong characters

[orchid whale]

I can’t imagine anyone likes it though

If you wanna tell someone they’re wrong about something there are nicer ways to do it

[vestal swan]

I can't imagine I would care if they did

[silk dirge]

everyone in this channel is a nothingburger except andy

[sinful nimbus]

Its not rude but it isn't a valuable contribution to the discussion

[vestal swan]

Usually if it requires elaborating I still do that

[stuck loom]

Professional hating gotta respect it 😭

[orchid whale]

Idk, if you’re having a lore conversation and someone labels your every comment with a “this is factually incorrect” sticker, it’d annoy me.

[silk dirge]

i forgot who said it but andy is the side character thats way better than any of the main characters

fr applies to this channel 😭

[vital ruin]

Who's andy?

[vestal swan]

If everything you say is getting marked as horribly incorrect then maybe you aren't paying attention to the conversation

[orchid whale]

Like, it comes across as you’re a know it all whose every word is objectively correct, and that just sucks to talk to

Yeah like that

[covert night]

who is andy

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing really wrong with disagreeing with people

[silk dirge]

a cool person™

[orchid whale]

It’s fine to disagree with others, it’s different to act like you know more than everyone else

[vestal swan]

You're funny

[orchid whale]

See that’s just condescending

[sinful nimbus]

Why would you disagree with someone if you don't believe your position to be objectively true

[stuck loom]

They kinda lost me towards the end of act 3 tbh where at some point it kinda started feeling like a marvel movie but the whole past lore is super interesting to me

[sinful nimbus]

That seems nonsensical

[vestal swan]

If it was a marvel movie sentinel, shakra, sherma and trobbio would have stepped in to help

[sinful nimbus]

I mean the backstory is cool yeah but the story is character focused and they somehow managed to not make any of the 3 characters interesting or likeable (In my opinion)

[sinful nimbus]

The Knight does

[orchid whale]

There’s a line between believing you’re correct and making it feel like you’re looking down on the person you’re talking to is all.

[hazy iron]

its like saying pickles are terrible. opinions exist

[vestal swan]

Shhhhhhhh

[vital ruin]

Shakra kinda helped protect bellhart

[silk dirge]

whos the 3rd character

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah you're right powdered hates anyone who disagrees with him

[stuck loom]

They really pulled the everbloom out of the ether

[vestal swan]

I'm sorry you keep perceiving every argument in this channel that way but that's not what's happening

[sinful nimbus]

Jesus I just got jumpscared by GMS's scream 😭

[vestal swan]

We really don't care for the peanut gallery if you're not going to comment on the subject we are talking about please leave

[vital ruin]

Sherma the emotional support bug

[sinful nimbus]

Powdered isn't stating an opinion here so that isn't relevant

[covert night]

sherma also saved hornet and brought her to songclave

[sinful nimbus]

what is a peanut gallery

[silk dirge]

ive seen it happen quite a few times where people talk in a way more condescending manner than is necessary not saying its happening now but ive seen it a few times

[sinful nimbus]

If I hear you say that one more time I'm going to lose it

[vestal swan]

It's when the audience is giving commentary during a live show

Basically people who aren't participating should not speak up

[stuck loom]

the final fight lost so much impact for me because i just could not figure out why it was lace who we were fighting lol

[orchid whale]

“I’m sorry you keep perceiving”
Like- You’re so casually condescending.

[vestal swan]

Just because you say I'm being condescending doesn't make it true

[sinful nimbus]

Lace is the reason GMS is still holding on

[covert night]

stop fighting and talk abt lore 💔

[vital ruin]

Grand monter silk was maintaining the cocoon preventing the void to crash in the boss room

[sinful nimbus]

When you save Lace she stops fighting to live which causes the void affliction

But yes its not a good ending imo

I do not care for Lace or GMS because they are not fleshed out characters and they have no time to shine

I certainly don't care for Hornet either

[vestal swan]

Shakra and Sherma side story when

I'm really sick of my phone auto correcting that to Shakira and Sherman

[covert night]

what do you care about 🥀

[silk dirge]

i loved it when jerma went to whiteward

[sinful nimbus]

My goat Ballow

[silk dirge]

ok ballow is goated

[sinful nimbus]

I am glad he survives the events of Act 3

And even has a semi-important role

[vestal swan]

Ballwho?

[sinful nimbus]

I also liked Nuu and she should've written the journal

[vestal swan]

I'm going to have to replay this game just so I can remember everybody's fucking names

[silk dirge]

ballow is the robotics kid whos actually on the assembly team and not doing cad or programming

[vital ruin]

Its the bug that helped you go down the void using the diving bell

[foggy fractal]

and horn went to save him :D

[silk dirge]

nushla nuu

[vestal swan]

Nuu: maybe we'll meet in the wilds!
Nuu: (scavenging something you killed and getting mad that they didn't get to see it alive)
Goes right back to the bar

[silk dirge]

nuu is goated i agree

[sinful nimbus]

Who let the 5 year old into the bar anyway

[foggy fractal]

creige probably

[vestal swan]

Oh him he's dope yeah
Sing the ridiculous amount of reinforcement he put on that bell made me chuckle

[silk dirge]

its so funny tho when everyone thought huntress was giving them a hunters journal and then nuus just like "nushla nuu here you go"

[covert night]

whats the drinking age in pharloom tho

[edgy barn]

Wait really?

[sinful nimbus]

Its so peak

[vestal swan]

I fucked up Garmonds quest

[sinful nimbus]

The reason I think she should've written the journal is because it'd give fleshed out Pharloom cuisine lore

[silk dirge]

great taste of pharloom ahh

[sinful nimbus]

Hallownest cuisine was the objectively best topic for the first game so it'd make sense to flesh out this universes culinary talents more in the sequel

[vestal swan]

But instead we got the duality of hornet, this would make a great weapon/this would make a great pet if it wasn't so spiky or if it was spikier

[edgy barn]

I don't think the citadel would regulate such things beyond its walls.

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet has no interesting commentary

The fact that the most interesting journal entries are the ones where she is racist is telling

[silk dirge]

this is apparently a don quixote reference idk ive never read don quixhote but apparently all of garmond and zaza are one

[vestal swan]

I think it's hilarious that she just randomly wants to turn things into weapons and the other half is literally oh my god it's so fluffy

Like what possessed her to break a rosary stringing machine and turn it into a very weak gun

[silk dirge]

same

[sinful nimbus]

Forge Daughter being disturbed by Hornet's weapon ideas is funny

[vestal swan]

True

[silk dirge]

"devious implements" 😭

[vestal swan]

I mean they only make two things, architecture and pins

[foggy fractal]

either gms or radiance trust

[edgy barn]

It's a bit dissapointing that she doesn't actually ever get to make to those tools though.

[vestal swan]

Yeah I was hoping on the beyblade one existing

[silk dirge]

big flea entry is the best

"i would not have guessed so large and marvellous a flea existed"

like ive said so many times give me big flea plush and my money is not my money anymore

[covert night]

this one is also interesting she almost breaks the idgafer role

[silk dirge]

cant wait for the +100% tariff on silksong plushies

us-pharloom trade relations are kinda bad idk

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is a fake idgafer

Everything she does is an attempt at aura farming

[edgy barn]

If these two are in fact the same type of bug, it is both very funny and sad.

[silk dirge]

thats sad but also thats what you get for using that as a weapon

[edgy barn]

They lead their fellow pilgrims through all the hardships, and when they actually get to the citadel, everybody else joins the chor while they get sent down to be an underpaid janitor

[graceful grail]

When you get needlein from widow, the cut scene shows lots of Weavers playing the melody that stun locks haunted bugs. Were they all playing that to keep her stunlocked?

[silk dirge]

moral of the story: dont fucking use a bell staff as a weapon

bro was trying to be an envoy imposter and failed

[real escarp]

I think the text at the end of that custcene suggests GMS wanted them to play

[edgy barn]

"For her light...eternal...our song sustains" is the dialogue with which that cutscene ends. I think is more likely this was GMS making the weavers play music for her.

[graceful grail]

I just think it’s funny because that melody stun locks haunted things

Also, hornet says to the snail shamans that they were trying to keep her sleep or something like that on my last play through

[edgy barn]

Non haunted bugs are also affected.

[silk dirge]

the citadel fucked up why did the stupid ass bell throwing dudes not get sent to the underworks "weapons are a sin" my ass

[real escarp]

Notice that it doesn't stun then per se, they start singing along

[edgy barn]

That was later on though,

[graceful grail]

Yeah, but haunted ones seem to be a little more forced to do it.

[vestal swan]

Of course they are, don't you know the reward for hard work is hard work?

[silk dirge]

thats why you work smarter not harder

[vestal swan]

None of the pilgrims work smarter

That's not capitalism that's organized religion, or a pyramid scheme

[silk dirge]

i mean that makes sense they literally fell for a scam

[edgy barn]

Seriously tho, I think this might be a case of the citadel not wanting alternative power structures forming within the chorus.

[covert night]

citadel is exploiting religion

[orchid whale]

I still wanna know how this scam of a religion even happened

[edgy barn]

Like, imagine if a guide rebels and the pilgrims he guided join him.

[jaunty elm]

do yall think hornet looks more like widow or GMS under the mask

[orchid whale]

Like, it just doesn’t make any sense. The religion clearly benefits GMS, but the citadel is also meant to imprison her. It’s so contradictory

[real escarp]

Yeah, I feel like I don't fully understand that part. Obviously GMS was put to sleep by the melody played by the weavers, then the citadel bugs and then the core. But it also seems that she wanted the weavers to play for her.

[vestal swan]

TC try to write an understandable timeline challenge

[covert night]

mossbag save this channel

[orchid whale]

That's not a bad thing, I think it's by design.

[silk dirge]

making a number line is so simple is team cherry stupid or smth /j

[spark valve]

No it doesn’t

[vestal swan]

At a certain point it gets really annoying not knowing what happened first in a set of events

[spark valve]

The religion was the thing keeping her asleep

[silk dirge]

i think the lack of defined timeline is definitely intentional

[silk dirge]

i am kinda curious to learn more about how the religion worked bc if they had absolution after death that implies some sort of heaven

otherwise that would be kinda pointless

[orchid whale]

I disagree, it makes the story 10x more interesting when there's a mystery to decipher and come to your own conclusions on. That's part of what makes a mystery fun.
You desire the answers, but if you had them, the appeal would go away- just for short term satisfaction.

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong isn't a story that would benefit from a clearly defined timeline anyway

[edgy barn]

The fact we can't agree on who imprisoned First Sinner really annoys because it kind of feels like it was intended to be much more clear that it ended up being,

[vestal swan]

But when it's too vague you can't really get an answer, you have a bunch of maybes

[silk dirge]

team cherry probably has their lore book and is laughing at us

[sinful nimbus]

The only obtuse thing about SS's story is GMS's previous actions

[vestal swan]

The lore book is just full of scribbles and misnamed characters

[sinful nimbus]

Which isn't really to do with Silksong's timeline

[covert night]

i'm fine with bunch of maybes. they don't just throw everything at once. we'll know more about it in the dlcs

[gentle aspen]

a lot of it is pretty cut and dry yeah

[vestal swan]

Yeah like the Grimm DLC explained how PK's foresight works

[silk dirge]

i have fivesight im better anyways

[gentle aspen]

fivehead maybe

[vestal swan]

That's not true

Based on Mr mushrooms dialogue about his own visions it would seem that the future is malleable

[gentle aspen]

I mean PK was doomed regardless that’s like

the whole point

[silk dirge]

isnt mr mushrooms deal tho that he doesnt have foresight

and he can only see the present

[ancient isle]

So can i

[vestal swan]

He wouldn't be able to predict endings if he wasn't looking at the future, he's confused about where he is because his visions are never ending

[orchid whale]

Anyways, this sign really fascinates me.
It's in the cradle, in the elevator room.
1.) This shows that, bizzarely, the Cradle was once open to the public. I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone bring this up. It once again puts into question if GMS was really trapped up here.
2.) I feel like the logic of "You shouldn't die under the Citadel's watch, you should slave away for us forever" is GMS's way of ruling. It feels to me like it's establishing the intentions behind the haunting have existed as part of the Citadel for a long time. It's as if the haunting didn't even change anything- it just made the conditions of the city more obvious to the eye.

[covert night]

what does seeing the present even eman

i can see present too

[orchid whale]

Short term thinking

[vestal swan]

That sign doesn't really specify the public so much as it's a "zero days without incident" sign

[edgy barn]

You can't get into the cradle from the ventrica terminus. That's a shortcut Hornet opens by breaking a wall from the other side.

[gentle aspen]

?

[silk dirge]

"Only the journey... the now. For myself, that is the purpose, and as far as my sight can see. "

yeah so mr mushroom doesnt really tell us anything about foresight

[dry bridge]

terminus specifically seems to have been some sort of central ventrica station, and terminus is not connected to the cradle proper, merely in close proximity

[vestal swan]

All of these signs pertain to workers, they are like work boards with jobs on them issued out

[gentle aspen]

the first point is just wrong

[real escarp]

The only reasonable explanation is that GMS wanted to be asleep IMO

[gentle aspen]

and the second one is like, wrong by proxy

[orchid whale]

The elevators are scattered across the citadel, it's obviously public transportation.

[covert night]

i think this is written for the workers not visitors

[vestal swan]

Just because there's an elevator doesn't mean it's for everybody

[sinful nimbus]

The cradle is opened, GMS is their object of worship even if the Citadel's true purpose is to keep her sealed

[orchid whale]

But also, what difference does it make? If it's workers, doesn't that mean anyone working for the Citadel can waltz up to GMS? That doesn't sound secure.

[edgy barn]

Eh it could be both.

[silk dirge]

yeah there are bellways and pilgrims arent allowed to take them

[gentle aspen]

why would it be not secure

[orchid whale]

No proof otherwise, so choose to disagree.

[silk dirge]

so it could be ventricas are reserved for especially important people but idk

[edgy barn]

It doesn't because the terminus doesn't normally connect to the chamber GMS is in.

[gentle aspen]

it’s as secure as the black egg temple

[terse warren]

Anyone working for the Citadel probably would prefer to sleep in the 2 minutes of free time they have, rather than go spy on GMS

[orchid whale]

Because "those who work for the citadel" means a lot of bugs, and it's just an elevator. It's not like there's a lot of security at play here.

[gentle aspen]

there’s some magical heebie jeebie nonsense restricting either of them

[vestal swan]

Especially since resting on a bench cost you 15 rosaries

[silk dirge]

also i doubt people visiting gms were able to wake her up

[covert night]

plus they have no power to kill gms

[terse warren]

Confessing your sins costs 25 and you're just told to work more

[edgy barn]

Once they reach the citadel they are no longer pilgrims. I really don't see how this is relevant though, nothing indicates who was allowed to use the ventricate or who wasn't.

[gentle aspen]

it’s not like the citadel workers going by would be able to just wake her up regardless

[silk dirge]

those are the dudes who were sent to capture weavers

[vestal swan]

I'm glad you can break that stupid machine

[silk dirge]

tho i am curious why ministers are there and no capture signs mention them

[terse warren]

It still (barely) works

[orchid whale]

Sure, but is it a prison then? It sounds more like they're relying more on her sleeping state than anything.

[gentle aspen]

If the cocoon was open to the public which I highly doubt was the case originally, there’s like, no real harm

[silk dirge]

canonical ai chatbot

[gentle aspen]

Of course it’s a prison she can’t leave normally

[orchid whale]

Also, I've said it before, but I don't think GMS's sleeping state has stopped her from doing things

[terse warren]

You can still put in rosaries and you get a broken up line

[sinful nimbus]

I mean yeah she was still able to start the haunting

[gentle aspen]

weaver downscale

[sinful nimbus]

That's more or less the extent of her agency though

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers were dead by then

[terse warren]

Any day I can hate on the Weavers is a good day

[gentle aspen]

don’t care this is agendaposting

[silk dirge]

tho i am curious how hornet wakes her up

[sinful nimbus]

Only valid agenda is against Hornet

[terse warren]

Yeah they couldn't even make a permanent seal vro

[orchid whale]

I think she could do more than that. I'm not sure what though.
Like, I don't think her sleeping state is a physical thing, I think it's a consciousness thing.

[silk dirge]

i doubt if a random pilgrim went up there and yelled "garama" shit would happen

[foggy fractal]

what about the steel city agenda

[silk dirge]

probably she woke up bc hornet was there

[terse warren]

We literally don't see her do anything else, why would you assume she can do anything else

[orchid whale]

I don't even think her cocoon is indicative of her sleeping

[sinful nimbus]

What does this mean though

[gentle aspen]

there’s no proof she can do more than that and also

what?

[covert night]

evil and intimidating garama

[gentle aspen]

“Not a physical thing more of a consciousness thing”

[orchid whale]

Why did the Weavers leave then?

[gentle aspen]

sleeping is both

[sinful nimbus]

She is more or less immobile when sleeping much like us

[silk dirge]

fuck your steel city i only want uranium city now

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers didn't leave they died 🥀

[terse warren]

The fact that she's directly stated to be sleeping is indicative of her sleeping

[orchid whale]

If she was put to sleep successfully, what happened to the Weavers to pray for salvationn to one day come and fix things? lol

[fading whale]

She also literally says right after the first silk heart "come witness our waking"

[orchid whale]

I know she's sleeping, I don't think the cocoon is what her sleeping looks like though

[fading whale]

Clearly she's in the process of waking because the citadel isn't singing anymore

[silk dirge]

you know maybe id be fine if they replaced void with uranium

[fading whale]

And hasn't been for a long time

[sinful nimbus]

They died and the buffoon conductors had to pick up the slack

[orchid whale]

She's a being made of silk, she spins cocoons, it doesn't feel like a seal on her.

[terse warren]

"long" eh

[foggy fractal]

we'll get a similar mechanic where hornet takes radiation dmg instead of like the frostbite on mt fay

[spark valve]

She’s not sleeping she’s just desperate to wake because she’s already awake

[sinful nimbus]

Please don't make uranium infection that is not cooking

[silk dirge]

chernobyl area lets go

[real escarp]

But architect says that the cogwork core sustains the song.

[terse warren]

Isn't she literally strung up by silk in the void cocoon

[fading whale]

Judging by the state of the citadel it's definitely long

[orchid whale]

So?

[fading whale]

As far as she knows

[gentle aspen]

I’d assume she’s sleeping inside the cocoon

[silk dirge]

i cant wait to fight elephants foot savage beastfly

[covert night]

magnetite is uranium trust

[sinful nimbus]

She is described as the weaver's sleeping mother so

[lapis creek]

so the vessels are just the manhattan project

[orchid whale]

I think she's sleeping when you fight her too

[gentle aspen]

No

they’re not blue

[silk dirge]

now i have become pale king, destroyer of children

[terse warren]

They're bald...

[fading whale]

She literally says in the beginning of the game she's waking up

[gentle aspen]

?

[lapis creek]

well shes clearly not there

[sinful nimbus]

What

[fading whale]

First silk heart cutscene

[orchid whale]

I feel like this is more something she hopes for, but it's not something she's accomplished.

[foggy fractal]

vessels without horns:

[gentle aspen]

why would she still be asleep while fighting us

[terse warren]

Baldsels...

[lapis creek]

shes gotta be at least partially awake when she fights you

[fading whale]

She's still conscious enough to telepathically talk to hornet

[real escarp]

IMO the whole original problem in pharloom was that when the weavers died there wasn't enough silk. But why? GMS is the primal source of silk...

[silk dirge]

yeah same i too fight demigods while im sleeping

[lapis creek]

well yeah but hornet cant witness her waking if she has already awoken

[terse warren]

She's not omnipotent, she can't make infinite silk at an infinitely fast rate

[vestal swan]

There's zero chance she's still asleep by the end of the game, I don't think she's asleep at the start of the game I just don't think it benefits her to actually physically get out of the cocoon until she's challenged because she's still weak

[silk dirge]

how are you fighting while sleeping that just doesnt make sense

[fading whale]

And by the way she's still conscious enough to literally scream and summon husks directly and in a targeted manner as we see in many arena battles in the citadel where she's heard screaming and strings fall

[terse warren]

She quite literally says "Come witness our waking" I think she's asleep

[covert night]

she's not asleep while fighting but she's pretty weakened by that sleep

[covert night]

thats different than fighting while sleeping

[gentle aspen]

I need to make a meme about gms

[fading whale]

She's waking within the first 20 minutes of the game

[lapis creek]

nobody would ever talk in their sleep guys thats silly

[terse warren]

Not what I'm arguing

I'm saying clearly she's still asleep at the start of the game

[fading whale]

Safe to say she has woken by the time we reach the citadel at the very latest

[vestal swan]

"GMS used sleeptalk"
it wasn't very effective

[real escarp]

IMO GMS actually wanted to be asleep. She's only waking beacuse s**t is hitting the fan in pharloom

[fading whale]

We hear her scream and drop strings and summon husks in specific places in the citadel, it's definitely not sleep talk

[gentle aspen]

more like a potential man meme about her

[lapis creek]

huh

[foggy fractal]

potential higher being !

[lapis creek]

she causes shit to hit the fan

[covert night]

sleep talk for a pale being maybe

[lapis creek]

she wants a child that would wish her waking

[edgy barn]

Potential Villain

[terse warren]

Grand Mother Potential

[edgy barn]

She was the true monarch all along despite being asleep 95% of the time and did a lot of stuff, don't ask what,

[silk dirge]

gms is the only being i have more potential than 🥀

[terse warren]

GMS getting blamed for literally everything the Citadel did

She wakes up, Stilkin are mad at her and she just goes "who are you people?"

[gentle aspen]

Well if the shamans dialogue is anything to go around she is at least responsible for the situations of the old heart’s kingdoms

[foggy fractal]

meet potential mother 💔

[sinful nimbus]

She's super strong and scary guys just don't ask why she's piss easy and how she got sealed by her own creations

[edgy barn]

Realize that if all your daughters end up hating you perhaps you are the problem? ❌
Just pretend nothing happened and create a new child, it's totally going to work out this time ✅

[covert night]

silk that has potential of being grand mother

[sinful nimbus]

Lace is also a potential man

Zero screen time

[terse warren]

Well except they're wrong because at least Nyleth was a-okay during some of the Citadel even, considering they made a deal with her to build the shrine for her

So honestly atp I'm just assuming they also refer to the Citadel's actions are GMS's actions

[gentle aspen]

One out of four
and I said their kingdoms
Don’t think nyleth was an actual ruler or anything

[sinful nimbus]

Who did Nyleth inherit power from

[covert night]

also this might explain why shellwood is still intact

[gentle aspen]

Isma’s dad

[terse warren]

2 out of 4

[sinful nimbus]

Why do they reproduce

And how

[gentle aspen]

Counting is hard

[terse warren]

Verdania fell during the Citadel there's no doubt about it

[orchid whale]

A big part of me thinking she's still asleep is, she looks asleep. Her arms are crossed as if in a coffin, and her face is obscured. I feel like she wasn't in a literal sleep, but more placed into a cursed sleeping state she can't free herself from. The cocoon is irrelevant- perhaps it's somewhere she chooses to rest while in this state, but it isn't somewhere she was trapped in. She makes silk after all- I think she made her cocoon. She makes a second one in the Abyss when you fight Lost Lace too, so it's a choice.

Anyways, I think what happened is: The Weavers tried to seal her to sleep to try and end her rule... But it didn't work. She was put into a sleeping state, but somehow maintained a level of control, even as she was placed in the Cradle and the Citadel formed. Still now sure how though.
Anyways, I think this is why the Weavers waited for someone to come one day and salvage Pharloom, before the haunting began. The religion and culture of the Citadel exists to slave away for GMS in her sleep, and the Pilgrims who came by were unaware.
This is what Conductor Ballador meant when he said
"Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise."
They tried to cry otherwise, they tried to say they had things under control. In reality, GMS was never dethroned- her method of rule merely changed.
And over time, it grew from societal slavery, to more literal slavery with the haunting.
All the while, GMS waits desperately for a solution to cure her sleeping state.
This is also why her journal description says she's "desperate to wake." She's NOT confident she's going to wake- she's desperate. I think this might have to do with why she wants not just Hornet's silk, but her shell too, something mentioned before.

[gentle aspen]

she started it

[sinful nimbus]

GMS also had a part ion it because uhmmmm they had to make hber evil ig

[foggy fractal]

alright y'all dm me captions for the potential grand mother silk meme

[terse warren]

She didn't do shit you have no evidence on this

[gentle aspen]

yeah I do

[sinful nimbus]

TC when they have to write actual characters instead of journal entries detailing Hornet's love for fluffy things

[terse warren]

Any dialogue where they say GMS is to blame just doesn't work because NPCs keep saying that and yet it's always the Citadel and not GMS

[sinful nimbus]

A stunning sight. Unique. All gone... Lost to the pale monarch... and the system to keep her caged.

[gentle aspen]

The Citadel wasn’t made for GMS’s purposes the weavers quite literally created that whole system idk why you keep ascribing the citadel to her

[terse warren]

I'm pretty sure an NPC says that something is the fault of "the Pale Monarch and the system to keep her asleep" like no man it can only be one of the two 🥀

[sinful nimbus]

GMS sucked and ehr children

[edgy barn]

I hate this dialogue with a burning passion

[terse warren]

Literally this dialogue yes

[covert night]

ok coffin thing kinda makes sense

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong doesn't have any good dialogue

[gentle aspen]

Like it’s really weird to keep asserting she had control over it in any regard pre haunting

[sinful nimbus]

I'm convinced the only reason HK's writing was good is because the main character shut their mouth

[terse warren]

"I remain a daughter of Hallownest" 🔥🔥🔥

[covert night]

why do you hate silksong so much 💔

[terse warren]

When the prompt says Listen instead of Talk

[gentle aspen]

Ballador’s also like, an idiot who assumes GMS was good as opposed to also being a bad ruler/person like the weavers were

[fading whale]

Yeah, it's pretty clear that only once the weavers left or died and the citadel started losing the plot, only then the song stopped and gms started retaining influence and power, in part due to the whiteward fuckup

[sinful nimbus]

When does Ballador do that

[covert night]

"even gods can fall" 🔥🔥🔥🔥

[terse warren]

No evidence that GMS ever actually did anything

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet notes she did

[terse warren]

Not even anything wrong just anything

She has no feats

[sinful nimbus]

Just accept TC undercooked GMS 🥀

[foggy fractal]

Hornet saying that void couldn't be fashioned to ones bidding
PK:

[gentle aspen]

and the whole “our raised our voices to cry otherwise” bit is pretty similar to the whole song keeping her asleep thing

[terse warren]

Mid Mother Silk 🥀

[fading whale]

Not really, he doesn't say she was good she just says she was the only true monarch and they did cry otherwise but failed to keep it that way

[gentle aspen]

not “oh she actually has control and was ruling actually”

[orchid whale]

I think the Weavers started the Citadel, but it was taken from them very quickly.
There's no signs of the Weavers IN the Citadel after all. Weavers used tech of iron and silk, but the Citadels' used gold and steam. The Weavers' songs used strings and harps, the Citadel uses choir.
Nothing about the Citadel indicates a history with Weavers, so I believe their presence only existed so far back into its past that it's been buried in history.
This is why one of few Rune Harps you find in the game is with Ballador. It's a relic of the Citadel's history, long forgotten.

[foggy fractal]

not even mid
bad mother silk
I wouldn't want a mother like that

[terse warren]

Didn't even have the time to be a mother they took the kids away immediately

[sinful nimbus]

I'm starting to think this GMS guy was a really bad mother

[gentle aspen]

🥴

[covert night]

mid mother silk is worse than broodmother

[terse warren]

Nah she was a great mother

A grand one, even

[gentle aspen]

aight man

[foggy fractal]

say that again ?

[orchid whale]

You can disagree without being an ass about it...

[fading whale]

Yeah only the twelfth architect says how much the weavers taught the citadel and basically it is upon their teachings that all the automaton cogwork shit even exists. So it definitely wasn't quick

[sinful nimbus]

🥴

[gentle aspen]

?

[sinful nimbus]

bro couldn't handle the groozy style

[orchid whale]

The emote makes it look like you're laughing to yourself about what I said

[covert night]

no she wasted her potential

[foggy fractal]

are you ok star you're looking a little woozy

[fading whale]

The TWELFTH architect clearly remembers the weavers even though she has forgotten A LOT of things

[sinful nimbus]

Sugar coated pills won't keep 🔥
You from feeling so woozy 🗣️

[foggy fractal]

[gentle aspen]

“Nothing about the Citadel indicates a history with the weavers” aside from literal characters referencing them?

[orchid whale]

Did you read what I said?

[sinful nimbus]

What are we saying even

[gentle aspen]

weavenests aren’t gonna look like the citadel either they serve very different purposes

[sinful nimbus]

Why is the amount of time the weavers ruled relevant

[orchid whale]

I literally acknowledged Ballador's mentions of the Weavers

[gentle aspen]

Ballador is not the only one

[orchid whale]

Okay I know that

I'm not saying those don't exist, my point was that you don't really see their influence

[fading whale]

What about the twelfth architect and the fact that all of the cogworks stem from the weaver teachings

[gentle aspen]

Why does that matter

[orchid whale]

I explained why

[gentle aspen]

you really didn’t

[fading whale]

And also the bellway activation mechanism is weaver harp string stuff

And also they weavers taught some bugs of the choir even how to use silk that's why they have those lashing attacks that extend their pins and do double damage

[orchid whale]

Because I think a Weaver city would look like a Weaver city. Weaver civilization has certain elements to it, none of which the Citadel has.

[fading whale]

That's not just them being haunted

Or the grand reeds using threadstorm

[gentle aspen]

It’s not a weaver city though

[fading whale]

It's not and it was never meant to be

[orchid whale]

This is getting into word choice semantics

[fading whale]

It was solely created to teach/trick common bugs into baring the burden of keeping GMS asleep

[orchid whale]

What podium?

[fading whale]

It's directly stated in a weaver lore item I don't remember which one

[gentle aspen]

like you’re comparing apples to oranges and going “because they’re not the same it means the time the farmer spent making it was different”

[orchid whale]

Or I just think the Citadel's history with Weavers was short lived because there isn't a strong sense of influence from them

[gentle aspen]

The Citadel is meant to be an opulent beacon for all bugs to come and work to keep GMS asleep
Weavenests are like, hideaways for only weaverkind

[orchid whale]

Like, Weavers don't even sing, they use harps and stuff. Isn't that weird?

[orchid whale]

Okay, but then where did the Weavers themselves go?

Doesn't that mean it was mostly a pilgrim society for most of its history if it wasn't meant to be for them too? How is that disproving what I said?

[edgy barn]

Again, remember that the citadel has long since been taken over by the conductors, who, judging by how Balladows talks of them ("those bitter Weavers") weren't exactly fond.

[orchid whale]

This feels more like a dug up historical artifact being studied/displayed

[opaque parcel]

are the bellways like infrastructure that was built like the stagways? or did the bellbeasts make them from bells out of bellhart

[edgy barn]

They died.

[sinful nimbus]

What it looks like in the present day doesn't really give us any information as to how long the weavers ruled

[orchid whale]

Okay but how did they die is what I mean? They didn't all just starve to death one day

I think the Citadel turned on them

[sinful nimbus]

Just like how you can't deduce how long a house remained unchanged before a refurbishing

[fading whale]

Last words of the Weavers. "Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.
We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

The weavers basically said okay we did what we could we made the common bugs sustain the eternal slumber song and we're gonna wait until someone strong enough with the silk can come and end her for good

[sinful nimbus]

Only that it was refurbished

[orchid whale]

No, what they say is that they're not free, even after "passing the burden."

[vestal swan]

It doesn't sound like a hostile takeover it sounds like passing on the burden while some of them ran away and some of them died

[fading whale]

Yes they're not free because she's alive still

Not because they failed at sleeping her

[craggy smelt]

bellveins are presumably something created, who knows why... someone needed a lot of bells and a place to put them
bellways might have been access points built to harvest bells, and Hornet just takes advantage of them

[orchid whale]

If GMS being put to sleep worked flawlessly, I feel like they wouldn't have died, and I feel like they wouldn't lament "not being free."

[vestal swan]

I mean it was flawless but it needed upkeep

Sleep is not a permanent thing

[orchid whale]

So? They had upkeep

[vestal swan]

Which means someone had to be constantly burdened with the task

[fading whale]

They did not have upkeep, the citadel lost the plot

[orchid whale]

And they didn't say they were worried about the DAY it'll stop working, that's just your own speculation

[fading whale]

And forgot the instructions

[foggy fractal]

Aye. Rumours in the camp say these bells run throughout the lands, great veins of them, forged by our ancient kin.
And some even say bugs used to travel through them, in gilded carriages no less!

Fearful Pilgrim has this to say about the bellveins

[fading whale]

As years and years went by

[orchid whale]

Later

[vestal swan]

Who said anything about that

[terse warren]

A hostile takeover would've been so much better, just giving the Weavers a taste of their own medicine, but I guess asking for good writing is a sin 🥀

[sinful nimbus]

Fearful Pilgrim (You remember her, right) confirms they were bugmade

[fading whale]

Yes and later is when the song started failing and the haunting started

[foggy fractal]

a sin ? sending last judge to kill you

[orchid whale]

Show me proof that the Weavers were worried about the sleep faltering later while working for now.

[sinful nimbus]

What the 🐌

[edgy barn]

What he is asking if why did the weavers die if everything was working fine.

[fading whale]

Age???

[opaque parcel]

thats actually really cool

[fading whale]

They say we will wait and die and pray and hope someone can come along strong enough to free us (aka kill gms)

[lapis creek]

well ballador says they claimed power greedily from the weavers

[edgy barn]

Widow did not die of old age and neither did the hallownest weavers

[terse warren]

Nah just wait till we get the Silkness (Silk sickness) in a DLC surely that'll be it

[orchid whale]

Yeah this

[lapis creek]

and seemingly realized later that it was a burden

[fading whale]

Then why do their last words say we will wait and die

[vestal swan]

They ran away, they passed on the work, their last thoughts were of somebody finishing the job

[terse warren]

Well yeah but more evidence points towards an actual passing of the torch

[orchid whale]

They didn't all run away

[fading whale]

Not to mention death apparently isn't exactly the end for a weaver under certain conditions

[foggy fractal]

and then we have to go to yarnaby for treatment, AGAIN...

[fading whale]

First sinner, and even the weaver spires seem to have a consciousness lingering still

[terse warren]

Hell yeah

[sinful nimbus]

They died

[orchid whale]

Some fled

[terse warren]

Although that'd explain how the weavers died lol

[vestal swan]

I never said they didn't die?

[orchid whale]

You said they ran away

[vestal swan]

How would we know the last thoughts of any of the ones that ran away

I'm clearly talking about the dead ones

[opaque parcel]

are the worms in the sands of the blasted steps connected to the worms in the wormways?

[orchid whale]

Why bring that up then?

We're talking about if they died or not

[vestal swan]

This is not a yes or no question about whether or not they died and this is what I was replying to

[edgy barn]

That's the thing we are trying to figure out. To me it feels like their deads were a choice.

[orchid whale]

That doesn't prove they expected things to only go haywire later.

[fading whale]

The proof is that they know the sleep alone isn't enough and for them to be truly free someone needs to come that's strong enough to kill her

[gentle aspen]

they just wanted a definitive end to things no

[lapis creek]

idk if they expected things to go haywire at all

[gentle aspen]

sleep is just sleep and they put that in the hands of regular bugs

there was always a chance of it getting fucked up

[knotty wing]

Probably? In some way, the blasted steps have way more sand so the bugs would probably adapt to the region

Hence smaller worms

[fading whale]

Maybe becoming enshrined in the weaver spires to aid the future "chosen one" they expected to come save them. That lines up with the "sister, spider" lore harp tablet thing that exists under every weaver spire

[orchid whale]

Okay but they speak more about how they hope for their current issue to be solved one day.
Show me proof that it's specifically a case of them doing this for the day things eventually go wrong.
There's a difference and if you guys are gonna insist it's the latter, I want concrete clarification.

[fading whale]

They enshrined themselves to have their power bound by the weaver saviour they expected and hoped would come

[orchid whale]

To solve their current issue someday, yes

But when do they clarify it's not currently an issue when they did this?

[fading whale]

Their issue is that they're not free. Their freedom can only come by gms dying. They can't kill her, but then can put her to sleep and wait for their saviour which is what they did

[lapis creek]

well it is currently a burden to run the citadel, ballador says as much

[vestal swan]

The fact that they planned for it to keep being up kept and or finished later means that they planned for it to eventually possibly go wrong? If they just abandoned it then that would be a certain failure

[lapis creek]

but they are running it, and gms is asleep, as everyone says

[fading whale]

The citadel isn't running and gms is not asleep

The citadel's sole purpose is the song, and multiple characters including ballador say the song has stopped

And gms is waking as we see

[orchid whale]

But she's asleep. Shouldn't that mean they're no longer plagued? Otherwise, what was the point of making her sleep?
And once again, is there proof of this? That their issue is JUST the upkeep? Or is that interpretation?

[fading whale]

And as she herself says

[lapis creek]

or they were running it pre haunting i dont think thats necessarily accurate during the games events

[orchid whale]

Also, Ballador never says she's waking

[fading whale]

No, because she's alive and as long as she's alive they can never be truly free

[orchid whale]

But when do they say this?

Like, I want concrete clarification if you guys are gonna tote this intepretation as definitive

[fading whale]

In their last words were they say now that the common bugs will keep her sleep forever all we have to do is lie and die and wait for our saviour of silken strength

That's when they clearly acknowledge that even with the eternal sleep they still need a saviour

[orchid whale]

But that doesn't mean they're only not free because they have to maintain her sleep. That could just as easily mean that GMS is still an issue for other reasons, and they lie in wait for this to be solved someday.

[fading whale]

And the citadel was definitely running when they said that

And it was running well enough that they assumed it'd be eternal

And EVEN SO they expected and saviour

[lapis creek]

what other reason are you suggesting

[fading whale]

Gms being asleep is not enough for them to be or at least feel truly free, they want her dead

[orchid whale]

I think that GMS somehow had an influence in the Citadel's view of her as a god to worship and throw away their lives for.
I don't think it makes sense for the Weavers to make the Citadel a refuge from GMS's rule, only to make its society revolve around throwing lives away while praising GMS as holy.

[orchid whale]

Okay but where is this said.

I don't want to see quotes that only say "We wish to someday be free." I want to specifically see "We wish to someday be free **from maintaining her eternal sleep."

The former is far more vague about what the issue they wish to be free from is

[lapis creek]

it is deduced from the fact that gms is said to be asleep

[fading whale]

They literally are free from maintaining her sleep man

[lapis creek]

most notably by herself

[orchid whale]

If you say it's what you deduced, that means it's interpretation.

[fading whale]

They passed that burden onto the common bugs of the citadel

Nobody said that them not being free is referring to them being forced to upkeep the song

As far as the weavers knew , when they wrote that last rune harp, the song was going to be eternal requiring no more effort from them

[orchid whale]

That's what I'm talking about though.
I think they were referring to GMS still managing to rule despite her sleep

This is what Ballador meant when he said
"Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise."
She never stopped ruling

[fading whale]

If you knew someone had literal puppet strings attached to your actual heart, would you feel free from them if they were guaranteed to be asleep forever ?

No, the only way you'd feel free is if you were WOVEN FREE aka either they die or somehow the strings are cut

And that's exactly what the weavers say they want

They don't want to be free from singing forever, they already succeeded at that by making the citadel and they STILL didn't feel safe

[orchid whale]

They died before the haunting

[fading whale]

Im not referring to the haunting

The weavers were cursed with gms control from the moment they were created

[cunning shell]

Guys

[orchid whale]

Yeah, that's why they tried to put her to sleep. I don't think it worked as well as they hoped, and the Citadel and its new religion in her name rose instead in the place of what they started

Thus they still wished for freedom

[lapis creek]

i understand that she rules now but how do you propose she was able to rule before the haunting while being asleep

[fading whale]

Yes that's what he's claiming the whole time

[cunning shell]

So yk about the true ending where hornet saves lace and gets evacuted from the void by the hollow knight IT maybe is related to the ending in hollow knight where hornet waits for the white hollow knight and then sees a version of hornet

[lapis creek]

because again her mentioning a waking does mean she was asleep for an extended period of time

[fading whale]

That even when the citadel was functioning exactly as weavers intended , gms was still ruling

[gentle aspen]

what?

[cunning shell]

I the true ending

[fading whale]

That message gave me 5 strokes

[gentle aspen]

can you like

[cunning shell]

In act 3

[gentle aspen]

Rephrase the entire question

[fading whale]

Hornet sees the hollow knight that was in the black egg temple, not the player character knight

[cunning shell]

Hornet gets saved by the hollow knight in act 3 ending

[fading whale]

No

[gentle aspen]

She doesn’t get saved bu the hollow knight, she gets saved by Ghost/The Knight/player character in the first game

[fading whale]

Yes

[gentle aspen]

Those are two different characters

[cunning shell]

But she sees the pure vessel right

Isnt int

[gentle aspen]

in silksong? No

[cunning shell]

In the sealed vessel

He was the hollow knight

In the true ending of godhome

[fading whale]

In hollow knight in the embrace the void ending, The Hollow Knight, comes out of the temple and comes face to face with hornet

[cunning shell]

Hornet sees the real face of the vessel

[fading whale]

What about that

[lime iron]

The Hollow Knight uses It/Its pronouns.

[cunning shell]

Heuh

[foggy fractal]

yeah

TC said vessels are genderless

[cunning shell]

Ahhh

[gentle aspen]

They said the two vessels we see are genderless

[lime iron]

Ok bye

[cunning shell]

Mb 😅

[sinful nimbus]

Broken Vessel confirmed to be a girl 🗣️

[foggy fractal]

so the knight and the hollow knight ?

[gentle aspen]

Yes

[foggy fractal]

ok cool

[cunning shell]

Wait...

[gentle aspen]

shut up star

[sinful nimbus]

What gave it away

[gentle aspen]

what do you think

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know its puzzling

[foggy fractal]

clearly the Unicouni persona

[cunning shell]

What is this?

[fading whale]

That's the lord of shades

[cunning shell]

Eva

[gentle aspen]

okay so like

Use better terminology

[cunning shell]

Maybe

[elder rune]

Lord of Frauds

[gentle aspen]

It’s the form the Knight takes in godhome, Void Given Focus

[covert night]

bill

[cunning shell]

Lemme see a scc

[fading whale]

What if I say god of gods is that allowed

[foggy fractal]

they're not related at all
just because two things look similar doesn't mean they're related

[covert night]

the knight turns into this in the godhome ending

[orchid whale]

That I’m not sure. It’s a hole in my theory, but I’m sure you could come up with something. I think most theories are gonna have a hole or two anyways.
If I had to take a guess, it was maybe somehow influencing the minds of a key few, either with song of her own or silk. We see orders written inside the cradle, which makes me think that at least after the haunting, she was communicating with members of the Citadel and giving orders. But this is just guessing.

[gentle aspen]

yeah thats fine too

[elder rune]

Broski needs to rely on Ghost to have any actual meaningful physical presence… except for when a flower no-diffs him lmao

[cunning shell]

THAt was i was tryin to say 🙁

[gentle aspen]

The lord of shades is Ghost

[cunning shell]

Was the everbloom a flower in hollow knight

[gentle aspen]

dunno why you’re implying they’re separate entities

[covert night]

yes, delicate flower

[elder rune]

Nah Ghost is Void given Focus

[lapis creek]

the issue is that if she can give orders through a select few people, all the usurpers need to do is kill those people and you're good

[fading whale]

Not alone , especially in the sister of the void ending it's implied that it's ghost united with all the other shades as well

[elder rune]

Lord of Frauds is the Lord of Frauds

[gentle aspen]

the void is united under their will

[lapis creek]

she doesn't have any way to exercise her wrath on the population immediately

[fading whale]

That's why they all disappear when the lord flashes on screen but are seen separate when ghost has the normal shade form

[boreal zealot]

Why the Pure Vessel and the First Sinner has similar habilities?

[fading whale]

It's runes

[gentle aspen]

convergent evolution of soul abilities

[orchid whale]

I think the Lord of Shades could also be an amalgamation of shades with the Knight merely piloting it.
The lord of shades could also be something that existed prior to the Knight, which manifested in the Knight.

[gentle aspen]

No it can’t be something that existed prior

[cunning shell]

So in the red memory phases hornet saw the tree of light?

[gentle aspen]

We’re explicitly told it didn’t

[cunning shell]

Gets the everblooom from a memory

[orchid whale]

When?

[fading whale]

Yeah it didn't, lord of shades came to exist through the godseeker ritual

[lapis creek]

i would say the reason ballador calls her the true monarch is because she had the weavers/conductors in stalemate and would overcome them if they decided to do anything besides commit to sealing her

[fading whale]

By ghost ascending the pantheons and being attuned

[gentle aspen]

by both the shade cloak beast dialogue and the void idol

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Void Idol

Hunter's notes:
"Inspired or mad, those ancient bugs. They devoted their worship to no lord, or power, or strength, but to the very darkness itself."
- Lemm

@kingoclowns used /journal name: Void Idol text: Hunter's notes

[cunning shell]

Because i was seeing like city of tears, the hive , and the tree of light

[edgy barn]

The shade cloak body. Its dream nail dialogue initially is "Void...Power...Without Unity". After Void Heart, it changes to "Lord of Shades"

[random harbor]

Dream Nail: The Abyss - Shade Beast - "...Void... Power... Without unity..."

...Void... Power... Without unity...

@kingoclowns used /dream-nail area: The Abyss name: Shade Beast - "...Void... Power... Without unity..."

[cunning shell]

Not thus?

[foggy fractal]

the humble screenshot

[fading whale]

Yeah I think it's more like he's given up hope and is like "we never stood a chance against her even though he tried she still ended up slowly waking"

[lapis creek]

they were at gunpoint but they still had it in them to e.g. enslave an entire race of flies

[cunning shell]

It has 4 eyes

As you go see eva

[orchid whale]

Doesn't mean it can't manifest as things.

[cunning shell]

She upgrades the crest you hace

[edgy barn]

why does that matter.

[foggy fractal]

just because two things look similar doesn't mean they're related

[gentle aspen]

mate

[cunning shell]

Bruh

[orchid whale]

Mate? You got me!

I guess I'm wrong now

[edgy barn]

They don't even look similar, many unrelated things have four eyes.

[fading whale]

Also lord of shades has 8 eyes hello?

Or is he talking about the abyss statue

[foggy fractal]

no idea

[fading whale]

I'm losing it

[cunning shell]

And?

[covert night]

why does that matter anyways

[cunning shell]

Almost looks like it

[covert night]

well weavers have 6 eyes

[foggy fractal]

and just because two things look similar to eachother doesn't mean they're related
idk what to tell you

[covert night]

and hornet is half weaver so

[cunning shell]

Yeahh

[cunning shell]

Thats right

[covert night]

its just a similarity

[fading whale]

Yes why wouldn't it

[covert night]

yes but thats not related to the shade lord's face

[fading whale]

And I can come here and say oh actually the head spikes resemble the pale king too

[edgy barn]

Weaver Queen Hornet has the same horns as normal Hornet,

[cunning shell]

Ahh yes shade lord sorry!

[foggy fractal]

yeah

[fallow spindle]

what i learnt about hornet

• she likes fluffy stuff
• she is an opportunist who immediately accepts things that have prizes even if its small
• she likes to gamble
• canonically racist
• wants to have a pet

[fading whale]

The shape of the horns not the number of them

[cunning shell]

Hornet had a flashback some sort

She may have seen the shade lord inside the hollow knight

[gentle aspen]

???

No?

[fading whale]

The knight just flexed his power a little that's all

It was like see what I can do sister

[cunning shell]

Bruh

[foggy fractal]

this guy is either too young or not familiar with english

[fallow spindle]

mf just wnated to aurafarm infront of their sister

[cunning shell]

Bro im on mobile...

But im french so...

Yeahhhh

[covert night]

both

it's fine

[cunning shell]

Bro what does that tells u that i just write english badly?

Even my age

Its a lore channel not general

[fading whale]

Well we have a hard time understanding what you mean, that's what gives it away

[foggy fractal]

and a hard time getting our own points across

[cunning shell]

;-;

[arctic patrol]

Chat am I getting silk heart cutscenes wrong or is GMS constantly referring to herself with "our" or is it because she considers the fucking mass silk unity creature she wants to serve her a part of herself or something???

[cunning shell]

Hueh

[fallow spindle]

tbh as a bilingual person i sometimes mix languages

[arctic patrol]

Like it's always "witness OUR waking"

[cunning shell]

Okay...

[fading whale]

I vividly remember being 14 and not a native English speaker on some discords and being viciously misunderstood when I was just trying to explain myself

So I get it

[cunning shell]

Uh ..... Can we get vack to loreeeee

Vack back*

Wait ... But in red memory it has 2 house

Not house but red thingy

Thing

[foggy fractal]

everything in red memory was red

wdym red thingy ? grab a screenshot

[cunning shell]

Okay

This

I play on switch 😅

[orchid whale]

Anyways, just because the ancient civilization didn't worship any void entities that doesn't mean they couldn't exist.
We don't even know if the Ancient civilization knew everything about void.
In Silksong, we see lore tablets from them explaining that they worshiped the void for its ability to make things hollow for example, but we've also clearly established the void can't totally accomplish this, so they may have known no more than even the Pale King did.
We also know that the void is an ancient enemy of the Radiance, so it's possible it's existed outside of the Ancient Civilization's views too.
The Lord of Shades possibly being an entity or concept older than the Knight is 100% not deconfirmed by the Ancient Civilization not worshiping it.

But also, when you beat the Pure Vessel in the Pantheon of the Knight, you get this dedicated cutscene where all of the vessels sit together.
This is mirrored when you once again beat the Pure Vessel in the Pantheon of Hollownest, and the same light and radiance scream comes from above. I think these both depict the same scene, with one being in their minds and one outside their minds. It's showing that as the Knight goes into the Absolute Radiance fight, they're internally united with all of the vessels.
They all become void with a single focus uniting them as one- Void given focus. The reason the Hollow Knight and the other vessels don't appear alongside the Shade Lord is because they all make up the Shade Lord. This is also the case in Silksong, where when the Shade Lord flashes on screen, it isn't JUST the Knight that disappears from view, but all of the vessels in the background too.

Anyways, stop talking like you know everything and actually embrace discussions where people disagree with you without talking down to them like they're just confused lol

[cunning shell]

DAMN ENCYCLOPEDY

[foggy fractal]

that's distant village
where Herrah resided, Herrah is Hornet's mother

[magic isle]

||is their a light motif in the lost lace OST?||

[cunning shell]

There is 2

[gentle aspen]

I haven’t talked down to you or anyone here once

[cunning shell]

1 goig tobher mother

[gentle aspen]

and honestly you’ve been the only one rude here

[cunning shell]

Going to*

[foggy fractal]

Herrah is Hornet's biological mother

[cunning shell]

Wops

[gentle aspen]

you keep randomly asserting me or others are jerks while bringing that energy in yourself

[orchid whale]

Mate

[sinful nimbus]

If there isn't malice and ire in this channel you are doing it wrong

[foggy fractal]

what's the right way to do it

[cunning shell]

I havent played for 8 months ( hollow knight )

[sinful nimbus]

Hey guys what do you think of Act 3

[orchid whale]

🥴

[magic isle]

Just my musical senses are tingling

[gentle aspen]

keep proving my point thanks

[cunning shell]

Still i did 211% and remember little things

[silk dirge]

yeah ive seen people act overly condescending in this channel, you are not an example of that

[orchid whale]

You did that to me

[sinful nimbus]

This ain't lore

[foggy fractal]

it was alright

[magic isle]

A bit short imo

[fading whale]

I don't think mod every disagreed that lord of shades is all the vessel shades united and commanded by our player character though

[silk dirge]

chapter 7: the summit

[orchid whale]

But also read everything I said and still try and assert that me saying the Shade Lord isn't necessarily just the Knight is dumb lol.

[fading whale]

I mean that is pretty obvious that it's the case

[cunning shell]

Lore heavy but great

[silk dirge]

(peak)

i think going off vibes act 3 is cool

[sinful nimbus]

Lore heavy and great in the same sentence 💔

Back in my day we had real gameplay

[silk dirge]

like sure if you off deeply analyzing lore maybe things fall apart a bit

but i dont care about that i care about vibes

and the vibes are cool

[cunning shell]

Great bosses

[lapis creek]

the way i would break this down is

• "By the will of the conductors" -> superficially, as far as the citadel people were concerned, the conductors were in control
• "The mantle of rule" it's considered rule, not much more to say here
• "We share their truth" -> the 'truth' that gms was still a threat belonged to the weavers, the conductors only know this 'now, in our citadel's silence' i.e. once gms has taken over again. I guess you could say they've known ever since they took leadership, but the point is that whatever influence gms has is only obvious to them with the benefit of hindsight. This line wouldn't make a lot of sense if gms has been structuring citadel society around her worship ever since she was put to sleep

[cunning shell]

Great design

Lost lace peak (took me 30 tries)

Groalt the worseees

[silk dirge]

i do have time now maybe i should for fun start making a document on how i would better integrate void into silksongs story

[sinful nimbus]

We don't know void is an ancient enemy of Rad by the way, Void isn't indicated to have any prior conflicts with Radiance in contrast to the vessels/Pale King who also fit the bill of an ancient enemy and have confirmed conflicts with The Radiance

[silk dirge]

bc i like the idea of the abyss being everywhere

[cunning shell]

Silk and void

[silk dirge]

but i do agree act 3 is a bit disconnected

[cunning shell]

Good name for dlc

[silk dirge]

ive had a great idea where conductors try to mess around with void

and so far i have cooked up one really cool idea which is that you shouldve learnt conductors melody from romino

[sinful nimbus]

Its true that vessels are united under Shade Lord's will but I don't know why you'd go so far as to suggest they literally comprise its body

[silk dirge]

it wouldve made such a cool parallel to monomon

[cunning shell]

Who was the first character you encounter? (Genuently dont remember)

[sinful nimbus]

The volume of every shade combine is probably greater than Shade Lord's size

[silk dirge]

chapel maid

[lapis creek]

i think daydel has behaved himself reasonably well

[sinful nimbus]

And it doesn't really resemble the shades in any manner

[cunning shell]

Where did she go in act 3

[gentle aspen]

I never disagreed that the vessels weren’t all apart of the shade lord I disagreed with people claiming that they have any part in controlling the Shade Lord

[orchid whale]

There's this from the Radiance which might hint at it, but it might also just be in reference to the PK

[silk dirge]

shes a snail shaman

[lapis creek]

and i certainly understand the desire for text evidence

[cunning shell]

Wopsis

[silk dirge]

her final fate is she dies casting the red memory spell

[sinful nimbus]

Yes its far more likely to refer to PK or the vessels for the reasons I gave

[gentle aspen]

this is all topical to the vessels and PK though

[cunning shell]

Shade lord is the hollow knight the little one

But is the hollow and shade

[orchid whale]

I don't want text evidence to disprove people btw, it's more when someone is claiming what I'm saying is concretely wrong that I want proof lol. I'm of the opinion these stories are meant to have different interpretations.

[lapis creek]

if ancient enemy refers to the void i think it could also be in the context that void is fundamentally opposed to light, without necessarily meaning it was an entity that fought the radiance in the past

[arctic patrol]

Void/Shade Lord would be a lot cooler narratively because y'know God of Light has beef with thing de-void of light

[cunning shell]

Weaver soul like

Maybe that was hornet?

Soul and silk

[arctic patrol]

See this guy get's it

[gentle aspen]

Silk is a form of soul

[gentle aspen]

that’s what I believe yes

[silk dirge]

yeah this is how i think about it

[orchid whale]

Or silk carries soul

[lapis creek]

anyway there are a lot of interpretations of that line that make perfect sense while also not contradicting the dream nail dialogue of the statue in the abyss

[silk dirge]

seeing radiance and void as anything but a light/dark parallel is wild

[gentle aspen]

The materium calls it soul

!wiki Materium

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Materium

Hollow Knight Wiki

Materium

The Materium is an item in Hollow Knight: Silksong. It can be used to display various items and materials in Hornet's Bellhome.

Source

Memorium

[cunning shell]

Okay...

[orchid whale]

Fair

[silk dirge]

maybe there are other interpretations but like its so clearly a light/dark parallel

[gentle aspen]

Spun from the soul of the creator yeah

[arctic patrol]

Void snuffed the lesser light out even if he was chill with it

[sinful nimbus]

This exists even if she's talking about the vessels

[cunning shell]

Waitwaigwait

Wtf is a wyrm

[silk dirge]

yeah for sure

[lapis creek]

it is technically possible that lemm and bardoon and the ancient civilization simply did not notice another void-unifying entity, if anyone wants to believe that, but the game is clearly suggesting that no such thing exists and the knight is breaking new ground with void heart

[covert night]

"the light cannot be consumed" might be referring to the void since void consumes everything. but this is just a guess

[cunning shell]

Red memory- ...prove yourself more weaver than wyrm

?

[silk dirge]

pale king

[cunning shell]

Okay..

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah you have to remember that these NPCs are purely for exposition's sake, and unless there's a concrete narrative or in-universe reason to believe they are mistaken, their word should be taken as reliable

[cunning shell]

Thanks btw

[arctic patrol]

Who would've guessed that if you wanna kill the bitch that corrupts minds you just gotta get one

[cunning shell]

Why would hornet

[craggy smelt]

hornet's father, the Pale King, once existed in the form of the Pale Wyrm, an enormous creature
it took the form of a king to create the kingdom of Hallownest

[orchid whale]

Jinn's masters seem to be complete void beings

[sinful nimbus]

Why would Hornet want to alter the world as she sees fit? Well she's noble and wants to see the world be better as I'm sure many people would

[orchid whale]

She's also the ruler of a kingdom, technically

[vestal swan]

She's not

She was a bastard child

[knotty wing]

She also witnessed a kingdom die so that might just might be a soul crushing experience

[sinful nimbus]

Of two rulers

[lapis creek]

shes a princess

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't have to be a queen but she probably could be if she desired

[vestal swan]

Bastards aren't usually given the throne

[orchid whale]

Oh my mistake, I don't know what I was thinking

[vestal swan]

And the queen is still alive

[sinful nimbus]

...deepnest throne

[vestal swan]

Why does everybody always ignore the queen being alive

[knotty wing]

She doesn't have the pale kings mark so we could argue that the knight is the ruler of hallewnest

[lapis creek]

is deepnest not a kingdom

[vestal swan]

Deepnest is super fucking dead

[gentle aspen]

didn’t do much ruling of that

[edgy stone]

I feel like hallownest bugs wouldnt care about the bastard shit

[lapis creek]

so is hallownest

[gentle aspen]

or take claim as queen or something

[edgy stone]

They just really like the pale king

[orchid whale]

Hornet can still be a ruler

[vestal swan]

You can't rule a pile of rubble

[gentle aspen]

not straight enough and no markers

[gentle aspen]

yeah you can

[orchid whale]

That's why I said technically

[edgy stone]

I think they would accept hornet just due to pale kings blood, their worship is probably that strong

[sinful nimbus]

Not that Hornet's parents would know

[cunning shell]

But hornet looks different too

[gentle aspen]

herrah should be aware

[cunning shell]

In the picture

[vestal swan]

Why the hell are you a cat on a skateboard I thought you were catscarf

[gentle aspen]

she’s wearing the garb of the pale court

[sinful nimbus]

[foggy fractal]

because that cat is awesome

[cunning shell]

She was royal

[sinful nimbus]

I just wanted to turn over a new leaf and start a new Uni themed life

[cunning shell]

But wanted to make another world of her creation?

[foggy fractal]

awesome

hopefully it doesn't change as soon as I wake up tmmrw

[orchid whale]

That said, Hornet seems to care a lot about Hollownest, and still plans on returning to it too. She was also like, a sentinel to it for god knows how long. I'm pretty sure she is actually interested in either ruling or maintaining what's left of it.

[gentle aspen]

that would suck ass I think

[sinful nimbus]

Surely

[vestal swan]

They are not haunted, they are not descendants of the silk infused bugs they are scavengers and robbers

[foggy fractal]

surely...

[gentle aspen]

she doesn’t plan on sentinel-ing any longer

[lapis creek]

they're certainly beings and they're certainly complete

[gentle aspen]

bro’s trynna be the new serrara

[muted lantern]

Hey guys I'm in the white ward right now am I screwed

[lapis creek]

they also certainly have some relationship with the void

[edgy stone]

Make the steel masters super computers

[lapis creek]

as in they kill any vassals that touch it

[foggy fractal]

haha bout to get silk injected into you

[edgy stone]

We need 9 pebbles in silksong

[sinful nimbus]

SCREAM IF YOU LOVE LACE ABYSS LAKE DIALOGUE

[orchid whale]

Well yeah because there's no need to and she developed past it. My point in bringing it up though is that she's clearly invested in the kingdom. Despite not thinking fondly of the title sentinel anymore, she still seems to harbor care towards the kindgdom anyways, so I think it's natural that'll manifest in other less murdery ways.

[muted lantern]

When the emergency room doctors break out the injector pin:

[edgy stone]

Silksong actually took place in looks to the moon superstructure

[lapis creek]

i think she spent the time in between games committing a systematic genocide of the flukes in the royal waterways

[orchid whale]

Are the silk experiments the start of the haunting?

[sinful nimbus]

"Oblivion may take you, child" COLD
"I have already stood the sentinel for one dying land. That role... I will never play again." AURA
"I remain a daughter of Hallownest" TOUGH

[vestal swan]

Eating them

[lapis creek]

the reason the citadel bugs were able to catch her was because she was too busy torturing a screaming child

[foggy fractal]

sooo tuff...

[orchid whale]

Becausse if the silk experiments are the start of the haunting, just saying but this actually adds evidence to my idea that the Citadel was always controlled by GMS, even before the Haunting, since the silk experiments were done within the Citadel and not by her directly.

[vestal swan]

Where do you think they were getting silk

[sinful nimbus]

In what way does that support the theory

[muted lantern]

Hornet is aura farming always

Love her for that

[sinful nimbus]

Must be a bad crop

[foggy fractal]

bad crop ? what will happen to the farm ???