sk-lore

[rain skiff]

it could be

[gentle aspen]

?

Ok

[lyric rose]

Imagine a rope.

Now imagine moss growing on that rope over time

It’s like that except the rope is silk and the moss is void.

[rain skiff]

okay thats actually solid metaphor yea

[fathom hill]

As to why is gms undergoing the haunting still is not clear

[rain skiff]

but in the pantheon ending the void takes the radiance
in silksong the void takes GMS
the void has a thing with taking higher beings, wether its the whol abyss or just a being inside the abyss that can control void when wanting to

[fathom hill]

I personally believe she is just lashing out but I could be wrong

[gentle aspen]

again you are ignoring the context of both scenarios

the former has someone who united the void and the latter has a trap set up using the void

[rain skiff]

im pretty sure it was like pre calculated in a way, i dont remember but i heard a theory about it a couple weeks ago

[edgy barn]

The void does not take the radiance in godhome ending. VGFocus tears her apart.

[lyric rose]

The void does not take the radiance in the pantheon ending.

[fathom hill]

Pre calculated in what sense?

[lyric rose]

It does take her into itself in the dream no more ending, not the pantheon endings tho.

[rain skiff]

idk, i dont remember that theory i cant support it

[rain skiff]

true actually
shit thats cool

[lyric rose]

In the pantheon ending, the radiance actually dies. The shade lord shreds her till she explodes

[rain skiff]

so its like a tool for powerfull beings (not neccesarily higher) that can kill / take higher beings into it

[fathom hill]

That's one of the uses

Are we any clearer on the idea that void is the manifestation of regrets?

Silksong doesn't expand on it

[rain skiff]

lowkey never heard about that theory before

wdym?

[opaque pier]

Confessor jiji said smth about TK's shade being a regret

[ebon silo]

Probably because the pale kings inventions were all regrets

[fathom hill]

https://hollowknight.fandom.com/wiki/Jiji

[gentle aspen]

aside from one person’s dialogue there isn’t much to suggest it literally being a manifestation of regrets

[fathom hill]

There's other characters that do mention this I'm sure

[gentle aspen]

jiji’s also a confessor (someone you confess sins to) + in the noncanonical interaction she notes the way we deal with “our regrets” is different anyways

[fathom hill]

idk if it was Bardoon, but I checked from above and he really doesn't say anything related to it

[gentle aspen]

metaphorically it most likely represents regret yes

[ancient sinew]

Jiji can summon Void canonically

[slow olive]

Or maybe void can possess a bug with negative emotions easier?

[ancient sinew]

However Void isn’t literally regrets

[rain skiff]

that is cool, didnt remember that

[gentle aspen]

this has quite literally never been shown or indicated

[fathom hill]

There's not much to hang onto, I do like the idea that it is pale kings regrets, but the void was there way before he was

[ancient sinew]

It’s just in TK’s case its Shade figuratively represents that, Jiji also doesn’t canonically summon TK’s Shade even though the ritual itself is canon

[gentle aspen]

I mean the abyss in HK is his regret for insane baby murder numbers so yeah

[ancient sinew]

But she can probably summon Void!

[rain skiff]

maybe void manifests in places of great regret? or other negative emotions
the void cant be caused by the pale king, because the pale king started the whole anti radiance thing with the use of void already

[gentle aspen]

it existed prior

[ancient sinew]

It’s not caused by him because it was already there when he started that’s the entire reason the Vessel project was even a thing

[gentle aspen]

there’s an entire ancient civilization that existed in Hallownest before PK ever showed up

[gentle aspen]

One that worshiped void

[slow olive]

Garmond comes to mind, maybe not necessarily JUST negative emotions, maybe we can include weakness of the body

[rain skiff]

i meant cant

i meant cant

typo
im not that dumb lol

[gentle aspen]

he got caught under the recently strengthened haunting

[ancient sinew]

The Void in SS is only able to “possess” people because it’s merged with GMS’ cursed silk

[ebon silo]

Hey Ari
Yeah William
Would it crazy if we add this npc saying sum void is a bunch of regrets for one dialogue and have no proof and other leadings to it
Yeah that would be cool william misleading our fans into a rabbit hole for the next 10 years

[slow olive]

Oh yea true it was void attuned silk

[ancient sinew]

But Jiji doesn’t say Void is literal regrets you need to learn how to read

[rain skiff]

is it agreed that void exists everywhere in the hk world if you go deep enough?

[slow olive]

Jiji might just love speaking in metaphors

[ancient sinew]

Hornet seems to think so

[ancient sinew]

It is obviously figurative given the context

[ebon silo]

I mean yes

[slow olive]

I have a headcanon the void is part of the core of their world since its always underneath a kingdom

[ebon silo]

You could say void is just lava if you dig deeper

[timber shadow]

right so now I kinda understand why people wanted hornet... she can produce silk... but why arent there any other weavers... can they die of old age or something? And why is every robot dependant of silk... like why silk if they knew its non renewable... and after all this... where does all that silk thats still left come from... like what did they stockpile it?

im currently act 2 and just got the conductor.... im not mad at spoilers but I might be mad at spoilers that I could find out myself like from just playing the game (like if its hand fed to me)

[ebon silo]

Also surely the weavers knew about the void civilization considering one of their hideouts are so close to what looks like another area part of the void civilization

[ancient sinew]

Keep playing the game

[timber shadow]

:((((

aight

[golden furnace]

I think the weavers either left pharloom (most went with Herrah to Hallownest). Or died due to infighting since the first sinner and the widow are on opposite sides.

[ancient sinew]

This is very wrong ignore it

[fathom hill]

Since the weavers did have their own problems I wonder if they just didn't want to open that can of worms just yet lol

[gentle aspen]

Yes weavers can die of old age, every single ability you obtain is from either a dead or weaver whose in stasis who dies after

[slow olive]

A big map in one of the weavenests apparently shows they went to other places too

[ancient sinew]

Just keep playing the game and you’ll find out soon enough

[gentle aspen]

And just play the game yes

[fathom hill]

But they prolly knew abt it

[ebon silo]

Some weavers went back to pharloom

[golden furnace]

Thanks

[slow olive]

Whats the consensus on widow, was she also a weaver that left that just came back or did she stay ever since gms made her into a weaver

[timber shadow]

is there a video explaining hollow knight lore without many spoilers from silksong? but like in rapport to silksong lore... like
yall know what I mean

[gentle aspen]

she stayed

[fathom hill]

I wonder if this is exacly what happened and that why in silksong no one mentions something like that

[gentle aspen]

she calls hornet the spawn of those who ran away

[gentle aspen]

?

No

[ebon silo]

Have a headcanon around this and is I think like this

Weavers fuck around
They find out more about GMS
Shock
Rebel
Rally together and leave
Some weavers probably those who are youngins or didn't know wondered why they were leaving and these were the very weavers that was in hallownest and with no options they went back to pharloom thinking it was a safe haven

Something like that

[timber shadow]

nah like I was asking if anyone knew someone explaining hollow knight 1 lore and all the weavers and shit but without many spoilers from silksong

[fathom hill]

I've seen a couple about minor hk lore that don't touch on ss too deeply

[ebon silo]

5 years old mossbag videos probably

[fathom hill]

I think they meant that they awknowledge ss lore but dont go too much into it

Mossbag videos just ignore ss lore entirely since well ss wasn't released then

[gentle aspen]

No

And also this isn’t a playthrough channel anyways

[timber shadow]

yeah kinda something like that
Like i was looking to see ss lore on my own but understand the basics

oh mb i got carried away mb

[fathom hill]

Just try to beat the game first I'd say

[timber shadow]

aight

[fathom hill]

ss lore is way simpler than hk lore in my opinion too so a lil easier to follow

(Or maybe I'm biased because I had hk lore as a base for it I'm not sure)

[fathom hill]

I'm sure the ones that came back did it cuz of the infection no?

better the devil you know ig

[slow olive]

I think its simpler because a lot of what we know now coming in to silksong comes from hk lore

Weavers, void, snail shamans, etc.

Lifeblood too

[ebon silo]

ss lore is you get captured and you gotta trap some guy then fight her daughter covered in blackwater

[fathom hill]

yeah but how it's told it's also a bit simpler, since Hornet does ask questions, makes conclusions and stuff. It ain't about some character just lore dumping on the knight

[ebon silo]

Wait that's the plot not lore 🤦

[slow olive]

Ooohh yea true having a talking protag does help in making the lore more accessible

[fathom hill]

blackwater?

https://tenor.com/view/say-that-again-say-that-say-that-agian-marvel-fantastic-gif-12441585058103544841

[slow olive]

Imagine the void also infused with the bilewater

[fathom hill]

Extra nastiness

Cue that one dude that said Lost groal for act 4 or something

[slow olive]

What exactly is the purpose of the roaches anyways

[fathom hill]

be eaten

[edgy barn]

Food

[ebon silo]

We need money Arthur

[slow olive]

From what i remember its for food.... but like why are the waters full of them

Is it because they just let em loose

[fathom hill]

https://tenor.com/view/jelly-beans-gif-18267191

[edgy barn]

Muckmaggots seeminglu thrive in polluted water

[fathom hill]

There's a difference between the roaches and the maggots

the roaches are the dog like things that do two mask for some reason

[slow olive]

Oh i thought they were like baby roaches

[edgy barn]

They area actually the same species

[slow olive]

Whats the term

[fathom hill]

fr?

[golden furnace]

I thought bilewater was the place where citadel dumped their waste and the worms represent organisms that are capable of getting rid of that waste (are capable of consuming silk).

[edgy barn]

Larvae

[slow olive]

Yea that one!

[fathom hill]

That's crazy

[edgy barn]

Yes. There's also an intermidiate stage called a Slubberlug

[slow olive]

The muckmaggots the larvae, then the jumping ones are the next stage

[fathom hill]

The wiki not letting me check ain't that convenient huhh

[slow olive]

What would the waste of the citadel even be

[edgy barn]

It doesn't work for you either?

[heady thorn]

after going to abyss i can probably map out how close pharloom and hallownest are

[fathom hill]

Oh fun

[slow olive]

We're on our own

[golden furnace]

Bodies and silk mainly. I don't remember seeing any graveyards. Lace is at least one reason why they would need them. Also machinery, especially one used long term, would need to be removed and/or repaired.

[heady thorn]

greymoors rain comes from the waste from citadel

[slow olive]

Its rain and silk right?

[edgy barn]

Yes

[slow olive]

Dang.... no more bodies can fit in the marrow anymore i guess

[golden furnace]

Isn't there a layer of lava between greymoor and citadel though?

[fathom hill]

Is this the reason why the craws are also affected by the silk? the rain?

[slow olive]

Could be

[edgy barn]

The marrow is too far to be the citadel's dumping ground anyways

[slow olive]

Although some of them arent affected by it right?

[edgy barn]

Craws are haunted?

[slow olive]

Evidence being the crawfather and the other black garbed craws

[fathom hill]

This reminds me of the study they did once on autochthonous villages/populations on how they found their bodies with microplastics even if they didn't use anything with plastic in their lives

Giving we keep on with the silk/microplastic comparison

[slow olive]

Some of them might be coz some get voided in act 3

[fathom hill]

Mainly cuz microplastics are in the atmosphere and it moves through the wind

[edgy barn]

Does anybody have that one image showing all of the weaver husks?

[slow olive]

Pharloom has microplastics confirmed

[fathom hill]

Silk is microplastics

[fathom hill]

Yeah some aren't

We really don't know how do you get haunted though

Like with the infection those with strong wills could not be affected by it

It doesn't seem dependent in distance, since Hornets captors are haunted

[ember river]

The court of craws namely isn't affected I believe

[slow olive]

Those in the citadel are definitely haunted coz they put silk in their bodies right

[heady thorn]

considering the abyss is underneath deepdocks in thhis game game while the abyss is underneath hallownest in the first game then the abyss has to be very big right

[ember river]

That sped up and made the haunting significantly easier

[fathom hill]

Yes we see when they "reanimate" no? the silk over their bodies

[slow olive]

Mhm coz gms can just manipulate the silk in them

But for the new pilgrims arriving that get controlled by silk despite not having silk in their bodies how did that happen

[ember river]

The Abyss is implied to be the bottom of the world, an ever-spanning sea of void underneath the surface

It's not limited to Hallownest, or Pharloom

[fathom hill]

It's mentioned that the descendants of them have silk in their bodies from birth

Idk how far from pharloom these pilgrims come from but that could be it?

Do some of them come from outside pharloom?

[slow olive]

Them being pilgrims gives that implication

Or maybe theyre descendants of bugs sent out of the citadel

Since there's villages like mosshome that indicates bugs lived there before the haunting

[covert night]

when we beat lost garmond he dies but when we beat lost lace she doesn't die why is that

[edgy barn]

Garmond is a normal bug while Lace is a being made from Silk.

[fathom hill]

Also Lace is being protected by GMS actively

Garmond is kind of on his own

[misty stirrup]

Wonder what they talked about down there while Hornet took her time lmao

[gentle aspen]

Well Hornet went in with the express purpose of saving Lace, GMS and all of act 3 happens because she’s trying to save Lace as well

[fathom hill]

I wonder if Lace just mocked her silently

[misty stirrup]

She's going in for 2 purposes : save Pharloom and Lace, act 3 Hornet is supposed to really value life (except Green Prince , he makes a useful decoration)

If Hornet could've saved GMS, she probably would've.

[fathom hill]

Don't think Hornet would have saved gms

[misty stirrup]

I dunno I read her character as coming to value all life and doing good for the sake of good.

[slow olive]

Gms doesnt look too good when u get down there anyways

[edgy barn]

I don't think GMS, who was enslaving all of pharloom and wanted to be eternally worshipped by everyone is covered by that.

[fathom hill]

Also gms tried consume her and then drag Hornet into the abyss with her too

Hornet wouldn't be the type to turn the other cheek unless there was merit to it

[slow olive]

I dont think hornet started to value all life per se, more so she felt partly responsible for the state of pharloom, and in addition has grown close with many of its inhabitants, so she decides to do something to save them instead of leaving them to their voided fate

[misty stirrup]

Perhaps I'm going too much into the superman direction with my read in her character.

[edgy barn]

Like, If GMS was saved Hornet would have to forever stay in Pharloom watching her closely, and risk that she nonetheless comes up with some plan to seal her regardlesa

[fathom hill]

That I think Lace gained cuz she physically saved Hornet, even if Lace herself says it wasn't for Hornet's sake I'm sure the latter does still value it

[slow olive]

Pretty sure she still relishes in ending the fly species even in the true ending lmao

[fathom hill]

Plus the whole Lace's story sounding like the knight's story but that's another matter

[misty stirrup]

Bug racism

[potent swallow]

Does hornet saw the hallownest abyss before the sealing of the abyss?

[misty stirrup]

Lace is a foil to both the Vessels and Hornet herself, it's intentional

[golden furnace]

Also there was a chance that gms would destroy Pharloom, if lace wasn't saved.

[potent swallow]

Idk if this should be in hk lore or ss lore

[edgy barn]

I don't think so. At best she would have been a baby and at worst not even born.

[fathom hill]

Yah that's true too

[slow olive]

Not just a chance, it was highly likely that pharloom would be torn by voided silk threads if gms remained longer in the void like that

[misty stirrup]

I think its implied that the void would literally overflow from the ground

[fathom hill]

Totally

[misty stirrup]

Which would flood the entire kingdom with void

[slow olive]

Long enough for hornet to run laps with sprintmaster at least lol

[misty stirrup]

And maybe the world?

[edgy barn]

Now you are going a little off course

[fathom hill]

she gotta get those souvenirs for when she comes back to hallownest somehow no?

[golden furnace]

The usual world is ending, bit have enough time for hours of much less important activities. Like a festival with fleas.

[fathom hill]

I always imagined it would just be pulled from the void into it, like a big collapse

Which makes sense cuz there's spontaneous earthquakes and rocks and debris falling

[slow olive]

Yep she also gonna brag to thk about the still beating heart of a gay bug she got

[heady thorn]

green prince was in love with the partner he was talking about right

[slow olive]

This was what i thought too, the void trap made it look like a black hole

[fathom hill]

Thk wondering where their sister is only for her to come back with a silky gf and a beating heart

[fathom hill]

Oh yeah

[robust wagon]

Yeah they're called his lover

[edgy barn]

You talk about Green Prince but I think using his heart for the ritual and leaving Karmelita for the memento is a lot funnier because of the dialogue with Gilly

[slow olive]

Oh damn does the dialogue change

[gray iris]

what the lore reason they turned the green princes husband into a robot

[edgy barn]

The wiki is down right now so I can't pull the exact dialogue but Hornet essentially admits to having murdered this lady and dooming far fields because she wanted to test her strength

[slow olive]

Lmao

[misty stirrup]

Kid named crowfather

[fathom hill]

she does say they'll probably come sround so not totally doomed?

[slow olive]

I mean far fields was already on a decline anyways

[misty stirrup]

In like generations

[fathom hill]

But yeah she says she did it for practice or something for the trip to the void

[slow olive]

Ngl that makes hornet a much more interesting character

[robust wagon]

Crawfather

[slow olive]

She'd fit into r/natureismetal very well

[fathom hill]

They made a deal with the citadel so they could help verdania in a crisis. Citadel dogs didn't help at all though and verdania fell

we don't know what the crisis was about though I think?

[slow olive]

Mhm i dont remember it being mentioned

Im assuming it was environmental calamity since u cant even access verdania anymore

[fathom hill]

Yeah could be

[misty stirrup]

They were running outta pilgrims , and the cog core is built as an automation to keep silk sealed eternally

[fathom hill]

where was verdania located again, could it have something to do with the bilewater thing?

[slow olive]

Citadel could be implicit in its demise for choosing to not do anything about it despite the deal

[slow olive]

Right next to greymoor

[edgy barn]

There's no mention of a crisis anywhere.

[fathom hill]

It is down bilewater but that one could be a stretch

[slow olive]

Iirc theres a little bit of space on the map between verdania and bilewater?

[fathom hill]

Green prince mentions it I'm sure

[edgy barn]

Green Prince said that it was so that Verdania would be left safe. It was probably more of a "Do this and we will leave you alone" type deal.

[slow olive]

Green Prince: "The dancers… they were the last free act of my partner… Always hopeful. Always naive. His whole he gave, in desperate trade to see our own caves left safe. His shell and soul became the mould."

The wiki's back for me

[edgy barn]

Same, thank PK.

[slow olive]

Hmm... "our own caves left safe" kinda implies the citadel was gonna do something to verdania

[toxic mulch]

Definitely sounds like a "I'll give myself if you leave my people alone"

[slow olive]

Conquer it or maybe even destroy it

They even jailed the remaining leader of it

[toxic mulch]

Probably wanted to conquer it,didn't like another society they couldn't control?

[fathom hill]

wikis working yipee

[toxic mulch]

Then again the citadel doesn't seem to have done anything to the skarr

[edgy barn]

I actually think that one wasn't the citadel, otherwise GP would be in the slab or more likely, executed.

[slow olive]

Karmelita too strong for em

[toxic mulch]

Karmelita solos GMS 🙏

[slow olive]

Ooohh.... maybe GP jailed himself there, since he calls himself a caged coward

[fathom hill]

I do wonder what does Hornet mean when she says that they were just caught in a pale being

Maybe gms did have something to do with the ruin of verdania?

Cuz if it was mere inaction from the oart of the citadel and they didn't bring aid, what does gms have to do with that

[slow olive]

It could also imply that gms presence led to the citadel taking his partner for the purpose of making the cogwork dancers, but not necessarily under the orders of gms

[vital ruin]

I thought the other one sacrificed himself so that verdania is spared

[dawn bone]

It may be a dumb question but the entrance to pharloom is in the blasted steps right? At the start of the game aka the intro the citadel bugs walk over a bridge with hornet in a cage, the weird thing to me is that that bridge they were walking on was from blasted steps to shellwood.
Shouldn't they have traveled up if they wanted to bring her to the citadel or cradle?

[slow olive]

I wondered about that too ngl

Like why were they going to shellwood

[inner torrent]

What is the relation of zote and Greyroot/shellwood

[slow olive]

I think zote says his sword is made of shellwood

[dawn bone]

I was thinking maybe the pov could be from the other side but that doesnt work either cus they came from the outside world

[vital ruin]

Wait wasnt the bridge they crossed was in Wormways?
They never made it past that point or got near blasted steps

[slow olive]

I dont think its that big of a relation tho, zote's sword is just made of wood

[dawn bone]

The broken bridge was higher right? And even if it was wormways, what are they doing there as blasted steps has the entrance to the citadel

[slow olive]

It was higher

[dawn bone]

Thought so

[slow olive]

The way outside pharloom is in that upper path not in wormways

[inner torrent]

You could try to make a connection between grey prince zote and Greyroot.

[dawn bone]

Could they have tried to send her to weavernest atla?

[vital ruin]

Oh it is blasted steps my bad

[slow olive]

Dont think so, the captors were under orders from the citadel

[inner torrent]

It's the border of blasted steps and the wormways so you weren't that far

[dawn bone]

Fair

[vital ruin]

Their goin the long way ig 🤣
thru bile water

[dawn bone]

Hmmmm

[inner torrent]

One have to think who freed hornet.
Lace is the most possible answer
But Eva is also a good guess

[steep talon]

Eva?

[edgy barn]

I don't think Eva can sense that far

[rain gate]

Eva didn't know of hornets existence until she entered her chamber

[slow olive]

Its lace i think, the flying bug that broke the seal of hornet's cage also show up with lace when u see her in deep docks

[inner torrent]

I don't trust a shell less bug words ngl

[fathom hill]

Either Lace or the silk moths had a will of their own

[vital ruin]

We can see a Luma Fly touch the cage promting Hornet's escape

[toxic mulch]

Wouldn't hornet have been invisible to eva in the cage cuz of the seal anyways?

[dawn bone]

Myea so it was probs lace, but i feel like its still a mystery why they went to shellwood

[slow olive]

Also doesnt lace say she let her go just to stick it to GMS?

[inner torrent]

Are lumaflies and gleamflies different species?

[fathom hill]

maybe tc messed up the dimensions lmao

[toxic mulch]

It kinda seems like lace wanted to give hornet a chance to walk away

She seems disappointed hornet didn't just leave pharloom immediately

[steep talon]

they probably would have gone through bellways by foot, bell beast isnt a native species to bell veins, most likely

[edgy barn]

Someone here proposed yesterday that they were going to enter the citadel through the bellway.

[slow olive]

Ohhh true

[steep talon]

yeah makes sense. Some line about at the start of the game that citadel bugs would use bellways in golden carriages or something

[toxic mulch]

That would make some sense seeing as blasted steps would probably be quite a pain to climb with them carrying the cage

[slow olive]

A pilgrim does say that the bugs travelled through the bellway in gilded carriages

[steep talon]

all though that line is presented as hearsay, so idk

[dawn bone]

The bellways are also up right? But yea its closer

[fathom hill]

does she?

[dawn bone]

Thats a solid point ngl

[steep talon]

it's a straight line

[dawn bone]

Mhm, saves them the climb

[toxic mulch]

I think in her citadel dialogue she says something like it's unfortunate hornet decided to stay,lemme see if I can find the dialogue

[slow olive]

Huh that answers that inquiry for me then

[dawn bone]

Now im curious what their plan was from there, putting the cage in the ventrica? 😭

[misty stirrup]

I dint thunk this really makes any sense, this is Hornet being an unreliable narator due to her self hatred of her nature
-GMS was eepy, she did nothing do verdania

• Pale King let Mantises alone and didn't force others to worship him

[slow olive]

Travel to grand bellway then they just walk up the citadel i guess

Ventrica travel was outlawed before hornet reactivated it

[edgy barn]

Green Prince does not correct Hornet though.

Also, GMS is not PK, she is much more willing to use force.

[misty stirrup]

Yes definitely, but she didn't really get any chance to do it

[steep talon]

we dont know if she was asleep when that happened. She got lulled to sleep by weavers and then those left

[slow olive]

Thats pale king's difference from gms, pale king didnt force his subjects to worship him, gms was the opposite

[steep talon]

there is a lot of time where both GMS and weavers are active and expanding their rule

[misty stirrup]

Citadel exist means GMS is already asleep

[toxic mulch]

Hm idk if it really fits perfectly with what I thought(apologies for the weird screenshot lol it's the best I can do on my weird ass phone the wiki is weird with dialogue

[slow olive]

Mhm this could be the conductors doing?

[fathom hill]

Now that I'm checking Lace really does only have like three distinct instances of dialogue

Like she really has almost no dialogue for such the major character

It's quite crazy

[vital ruin]

Thought the lore from the Clover Dancers is that the other one sacrificed himself to be molded into the cogwork dances to spare the haunting silk from reaching Verdania
As to why it still fell i have no idea

[misty stirrup]

Lace doesnt appear too much in the story despite act3 being reliant on her

[toxic mulch]

Her fights,a variant of her deep docks dialogue if you skip lace 1 and find her in blasted steps or sinners road,citadel,lace 2,abyss and lost lace

[steep talon]

haunting is a more recent occurence

[toxic mulch]

I'd say she doesn't have a ton of dialogue early on but as you go through act 2 she says a few lines till you get to lace 2 and then she's integral to act 3

[fathom hill]

Id guess the part where she says she had to endure the trek? but that could be just typical Lace mocking

[slow olive]

What exactly is the purpose of the cogwork dancers anyways

[edgy barn]

Guards

[slow olive]

Like why did the conductors make em

[steep talon]

they look sick

[toxic mulch]

They needed gay dancers

[slow olive]

Guards for the elevator to imprisoned gms?

[fathom hill]

I'd say the opposite, most of her important dialogue is in the cradle (end of act 2) and the astro projecting in the abyss (act 3)

[slow olive]

If they wanted gms imprisoned why did they have an elevator to her

[toxic mulch]

Likely to keep tabs on her

[fathom hill]

So rather at the end she has more meaningful dialogue, all before it's just mocking or the same dialogue in different places

[misty stirrup]

Am I the only one who read the projection as void playing tricks on Hornets mind?

[dawn bone]

Oh yea, i mean, theres enough silk there to make a system like an elevator to pull up her cage

[fathom hill]

Like the blasted steps/sinners road snd deep docks its mostly the same

[edgy barn]

You… So, it is done… My wish granted before ever I arrived…
Hornet: The bronze pair that danced this chamber, it is clear, tall bug, how closely they mimicked your shell. Was it you who provided their inspiration?
Not I, warrior. For this place, my heart holds only loathing…
The dancers… they were the last free act of my partner… Always hopeful. Always naive.
His whole he gave, in desperate trade to see our own caves left safe. His shell and soul became the mould.
So long, I dared not visit… Even as our lands fell to thread and ruin… Instead I wasted, a coward caged, too weak to witness his grace bound in parody so cruel.
Hornet: Take some solace, tall bug. His soul is now free from that shell of iron, and the fate that befell your lands, this Citadel too has been claimed full by it.
Aye… Slim consolation, warrior, now that everything I loved is lost…

[steep talon]

maybe first attempt at artificial life. Their design is a bit different from usual automatons. It's mostly the head spike

[misty stirrup]

They're harvesting her silk

There's even pipes in the cradle

Plus opening poem

[slow olive]

Ooohhh makes sense

[misty stirrup]

Bound in slumber and servitude

[toxic mulch]

I mean it's possible but I do think that's just actually lace talking

[edgy barn]

Verdania fell to thread and ruin and Hornet commenta on that being the same fate that claimed the citadel.

[slow olive]

Dang no wonder gms was pissed when she started waking up

[toxic mulch]

We need a verdania sized memory of karak

[edgy barn]

That would mean Verdania fell to the Haunting and like, how the fuck?

[steep talon]

the grace bound in parody so cruel reminds me of memorium. Maybe that's why they wanted to keep them?

[misty stirrup]

The absolute audacity tho to put a god to sleep and harvest their ... natural byproduct?

Conductors truly were greedmaxxing

[slow olive]

GMS is awake in silksong right? Like during our playthrough

[edgy barn]

Not fully

[misty stirrup]

She's still asleep until you shout garama

[ebon silo]

Probably not until you actually fight her

[toxic mulch]

She's waking up and then is fully awake during her fight and in act 3

[slow olive]

The weavers told me to do it!!!!

[vital ruin]

From the memory boss
we can see it fell from GMS influence tho not necessiraly the haunting ig
But the kingdoms of Karak sands, Skarr ants and Verdania fell due to Gms

[misty stirrup]

There's a discussion to be made about how conscious she is during the haunting

[steep talon]

or weavers were still there and used their threads against verdania

[steep talon]

yes

[slow olive]

Shes definitely on the verge of waking up during the haunting right, thats basically her controlling the silk in those bugs

[toxic mulch]

Could be her having natural control within her sleepy ass state

[edgy barn]

"the fate that befell your lands, this Citadel too has been claimed full by it."

[toxic mulch]

Like she's in that stage of barely asleep during the game

[steep talon]

yes, first silk heart spells it out Come witness our waking or something

[fathom hill]

Do we know if at that time gms was sleeping? Or maybe she says it's by proxy since the weavers could have had some hand on it and they were made by gms, or like you say something like "all pale beings bring is destruction one way or another"

[slow olive]

Goes to show that she's definitely a pale being if she can control bugs even when not fully awake

Could be another reason why the weavers realized it was futile to even try to contain her

[ebon silo]

Copying the radiance smh pack your things lil man you'll be hearing from my lawyers and my patent

[toxic mulch]

They probably could tell she'd awaken eventually and with them not being able to do anything about it ran away

[cold wharf]

They might’ve known she wasn’t gonna be imprisoned forever and eventually somebody would come along to subdue her (weaver prophecy or summ) so they made it possible but really difficult to do meaning you need threefold and you need to beat dancers

[slow olive]

The radiance has been voided that wont hold up in court!!!

[steep talon]

citadel fell by thread and ruin. I get what you're saying, but I still think it's ambiguous

[misty stirrup]

The citadel was built as a prison around GMS. If the citadel exists , GMS is jo longer active

[ebon silo]

Probably yeah I mean why would you stay in a kingdom where you just contained a god that you know it will wake up eventually

[slow olive]

Woops wrong reply

[misty stirrup]

There's like 4 eras. Silk > Weavers > Conductor > Haunting

[toxic mulch]

I do wonder where the weavers that didn't end up in hallownest went

[inner torrent]

To zoteboat

[steep talon]

poop shit kingdom

[slow olive]

Theres definitely other kingdoms

[edgy barn]

We know that there were weaver descendants in Sandsea Shore, Blackbarrens and beneath the City of Steel

[fathom hill]

Ahh you're right

[toxic mulch]

Also in HK it's said they returned to their ancestral home or whatever but is there really any evidence to support the trapped weavers went willingly?

[inner torrent]

Maybe one went to the tribe/kingdom where shakra and his master comes from

[toxic mulch]

We need a shakra memory

[fathom hill]

shakra apparently comes from the borders of pharloom so not very far

[ebon silo]

Shakras master pantheon fight when

[toxic mulch]

I'm so intrigued by what her tribes homeland looks like

[edgy barn]

The Hallownest Weavers returning to Pharloom is completely unaddresed in Silksong.

[toxic mulch]

Strange

[ebon silo]

It could be from that shitpost team cherry made sum about lion village

[inner torrent]

If my theory of the weavers not being inmortal is correct they probably just died and their knowledge of the gms dissapeared so they just went thinking (How bad can homeland be?)

[toxic mulch]

Because silksong clearly takes place quite a long time after the first game

[ebon silo]

The problem for this is which ending

[edgy barn]

We need a version of that "address me" meme but instead of an elephant is a bunch of weavers.

[steep talon]

hyper-realistic 300kg lion boss fight

[ebon silo]

I think that has already happened

[toxic mulch]

We can only rule out sealed siblings...so uh 4/5

[slow olive]

Definitely one of the godhome endings

[inner torrent]

Sealed siblings and hollow knight

[slow olive]

Or either

[toxic mulch]

I doubt the godhome ending without the everbloom happened as that seems to have just kinda totalled hallownest

[fathom hill]

Pharloom's edge, will we see the parallel to kingdom's edge?

[edgy barn]

Why would the Knight destroy Hallownest.

[slow olive]

Team cherry were cheeky and decided to flash us with the shade lord in the true ending

[inner torrent]

Because is not the knight anymore, is the shade lord

[toxic mulch]

Not the knight,just the void in general claiming the land

[misty stirrup]

Don't think Pharlooms higher being left behind a cast of shell

[steep talon]

i think knight got it under their control. it's chill

[slow olive]

I mean, sister of the void ending kinda gives the implication that shade lord is still the knight, or an aspect of the knight that it has full control over

[ebon silo]

It's either DNM or ETV

The problem for DNM is why does the shade lord appears in act 3

The problem for ETV is why there no mention of the hollow knight which could just be explained in the later DLCs but no address at all

[edgy barn]

The Knight is the Lord of Shades, they have the void heart, they control the void, they still save Hornet in SoTV.

[edgy barn]

why would that happen.

[slow olive]

I thought shade lord just messed up that one golden bug

[toxic mulch]

Imo dream no more works best narratively but etv makes sense with some info

[steep talon]

🤓 👆 ermm actually shade lord and lord of shades are two different things!

[slow olive]

Wait are they

[edgy barn]

They gotta get out of the dream realm somehow

[ebon silo]

It's just why does the shade lord appear

[toxic mulch]

They violently tried to escape godseeker

[steep talon]

im mostly joking, but there is a distinction. Cloak bug in abyss says lord of shades after voidheart, then shade lord is pantheon only i believe

[edgy barn]

Lord of Shades is Knight after voidheart. Shade Lord, or rather, Void Given Focus, is a specific form of the Knight attained due to the Godseekers ritual.

[ebon silo]

It would take superman and darkseid for me to escape godseeker

[inner torrent]

The knight just got the void heart after time.
He can't just wander as a shade forever

[slow olive]

Ohhh gotcha

[toxic mulch]

I mean the knight does still have voidheart in dream no more

[steep talon]

they're probably not that crazy different all things considered

[slow olive]

Im just glad the knight is doing okay swimming around the void with all its siblings

[steep talon]

true! let the little one chillax

[subtle plaza]

What if the knight is the knight

[vital ruin]

We can rule out 3 endings actually
-Hollow knight (1st ending just being sealed alone)
-Sealed Siblings
-Embrace the void (where at the ending scene hornet was approached by the knight in an aggressive form)

[ebon silo]

No personal space

[slow olive]

None whatsoever and theyre all happy like that

[toxic mulch]

I do wonder if the void has a bottom

[ebon silo]

Why rule out ETV

[steep talon]

uh no? embrace the void is fine, unless you mean where knight gets poofed by everbloom

[ebon silo]

The thing that hornet encountered was the hollow knight

[whole marsh]

I think the shade lord showing up in the ending is showed up in the ending is supposed to be Hornet getting a glimpse of / realizing TK’s true power. Kinda like when someone touches Naruto and they can then suddenly perceive the 9 tails inside and are like “oh shit this is your true power?!”

[inner torrent]

Probably? It can't be endless

[whole marsh]

But that’s just my personal interpretation

[steep talon]

im not sure why it would work like that

[slow olive]

Mhm for me the shade lord becomes an aspect of the knight

[vital ruin]

Etv was where hollow knight showed up to attack hornet at the end no?

[vestal swan]

You can only rule out the first two endings, but realistically it's embrace the void

[fathom hill]

Could be but probably it is out there for deliberately being up for interpretation

[ebon silo]

That was the hollow knight

[subtle plaza]

ETV is such a weird ending to consider as the prequel for Silksong, even though it technically works. I think dream no more fits better thematically.

[toxic mulch]

I also wish silksongs void was a bit bigger,it's kinda just the bench,some platforming,and a boss

[fathom hill]

The "pick whichever ending you like most" philosophy tc has

[steep talon]

attack? They just approached her after shambling their way out of black egg

[ebon silo]

Sealed siblings is canon and no one can change it

[whole marsh]

Because the shade load flashes in or out like it’s a temporary thing or not physically there

[fathom hill]

We really can't huh

[slow olive]

Doesnt reallt imply that thk would attack her per se, hornet was just on guard and most likely surprised that thk was no longer under the infection

[toxic mulch]

Dream no more just fits the best with the story HK told

[vital ruin]

I mean Hornet did assume a fighting stance

[toxic mulch]

Could've been reflex

[steep talon]

im sure they'll make a comic that follows up on that ending !!!!

[ebon silo]

Again it could be a surprise like how she does when she encountered the snail shamans in the chapel

[fathom hill]

I like the flower ending the most cuz it has the everbloom which connects nicely with the themes in silksong

[slow olive]

Hornet did it when shakra went poshanka the first time lol

[steep talon]

yes, hornet is very combative. THK then doesnt raise the weapon, just looks over

[toxic mulch]

POSHANKA

[vital ruin]

Dream no More made more sense tbh
Where all the siblings and the knight went back to the void

[vestal swan]

Hornet is surprised that thk just walked out of its magical prison, it's limping by the way using its weapon as a cane. They weren't going to fight

[ebon silo]

be hornet
Look at your surroundings
Infection dies
Something is moving inside the black egg temple
Holy shit it's your fucking brother
You get ready because you think your brother still has the infection

[slow olive]

Sup sis

[vestal swan]

Thk was still crippled by the radiance

[toxic mulch]

Erm the vessels have no gender it'd just be her sibling ☝️🤓

[fathom hill]

But again it's probably made so whichever you like best you can have some explanation for it, that's why we see both the knight in their normal form and their void lord form

[vestal swan]

They wouldn't get out if the infection was still there, the seals undid magically

[ebon silo]

Something something

[subtle plaza]

Hornet has thousands of dead half brothers now that i think about it

[slow olive]

Again its Team Cherry being cheeky

Which i appreciate

[vestal swan]

What

[ebon silo]

Yeah

[vital ruin]

I thought it would be because the knight got taken over by the shade lord
which we know that the void is aggressive in nature

[fathom hill]

Also the knight it's like half a kingdom away so you got no clue what happened lmao

[inner torrent]

WHY IS ART CLASS SO HARD, I DONT WANT TO DO DECISIONS
anyway, do you think the hollow knight is still wandering around doing kinda nothing?

[ebon silo]

The problem is the shade lord appearing

[vestal swan]

That is the knight

[vital ruin]

Which made a perfect name for the ending "Embrace the Void"

[fathom hill]

yeah! also why we don't have direct confirmation of thk since well, it would be siding with one ending or the other

[toxic mulch]

I mean the knight seems to control the shade lord to some extent but I'm not totally sure

[subtle plaza]

How is that a plot hole tho?

[slow olive]

Just chilling in hallownest

[vestal swan]

The big form appearing means embrace the void happened

[ebon silo]

I mean it only does appear in ETV right?

[slow olive]

Kinda wish we would get one down the line

[vestal swan]

Everybody's just on copium

[slow olive]

They showed the knight, they gotta show thk right? Right.....

[humble iron]

It only appears in that ending but it could very well still exist in the dream no more ending

[steep talon]

ayoooo, it's chill it's fine. Not much changes if dnm is also canon, ok?

[toxic mulch]

We all cling to team cherry saying no 1 ending is canon but they might've just chosen one for silksong

[vital ruin]

Team cherry did say back then every ending is canon 🤣

I mean its a different story for SS its definitely act 3's ending

[vestal swan]

It can't really be cannon to this timeline though

[ebon silo]

But the shade lord only does appear because of the godseekers ritual? Like how would void be given focus without the godseeker

[steep talon]

although I personally prefer EtV being canon. So THK can chill and live their life

[humble iron]

I mean in a vaccum they are all canon

[subtle plaza]

Sealed siblings is more likely than dnm or etv tbh

[vestal swan]

No it can't?

[humble iron]

Do we have any confirmation as to why it appeared ?

[fathom hill]

I mean we may be getting closer, since now two endings have been totally discarded as canon

Only thing we need is confirmation of what happened to thk

[toxic mulch]

Ye act 3s ending is definitely the canon one for silksong

[slow olive]

I wouldnt even be mad if we just see thk in a memory

[humble iron]

So true bestie

[fathom hill]

That one I think its our missing link

[vestal swan]

Thks probably just wandering around

[edgy barn]

I suppose we don't but is easy to assume that the Knight transformed due to becoming the focus of the godseeker ritual.

[steep talon]

that was 7 years ago. This has been brought up but they might have just changed their mind on that phylosophy

[toxic mulch]

Also guys I just remembered,we know for a fact the canon ending of hk

Mr mushroom ending

[slow olive]

Mister mushroom is the only constant

[fathom hill]

thk only wanders around in the pantheon endings though, in the other one he just becomes a shade too

[humble iron]

That or Hornet just straight up killed them considering she was readying for battle in the ending

[vestal swan]

Silksong has multiple endings as well, it just means the one where silk song happens lines up with one of the hollow Knight endings, and what happens in the future might not line up with all of the silksong endings

[vital ruin]

I know im just saying it again

[vestal swan]

The pantheon ending happened

[steep talon]

i agree

[edgy barn]

Why would TC make a cliffhanger with THK being alive only to reveal they inmediatly died offscreen

[fathom hill]

Good so we agree on something

[slow olive]

The true zote connection is zote is the one crawling out of the wood in the cursed silksong ending, hence why he has a shellwood sword, and he's so powerful that he time traveled to the past to steal the knight's girl

[humble iron]

Idk man they didn't use it in Silksong either sooo

[steep talon]

knight's girl? who?

[vestal swan]

They left a lot of things from the first game alone that doesn't say anything about thk

[fathom hill]

This is the moment were we know that silksong was a prequel this whole time

[toxic mulch]

Zote being the twisted child

[edgy barn]

Bretta

[steep talon]

yee, I just wouldnt describe her as such, but whatev

[slow olive]

Its just for the meme

[vestal swan]

NGL about halfway through the story I expected some time travel

[fathom hill]

They drank the evil sauce

[toxic mulch]

Bretta was very one sided

[slow olive]

The knight was just vibin

[fathom hill]

Same evil sauce that will make the dlc cost 1 dollar instead of free

[vital ruin]

Etv and Delicate flower are basically the same thing but with the flower withering

[humble iron]

I trust TC not to do time travel (if they did I'm sure they'd manage to make it interesting tho)

[toxic mulch]

I'm glad we didn't as I'd rather not mess up all the preexisting lore by doing that,the memories serve the same purpose without hornet actually changing the past

If they ever do time travel imo it NEEDS to be a causal loop

[slow olive]

Hornet going back through her memories and meeting all her moms again was very touching tho

[steep talon]

no

fuck im engaging in powerscaling. abort abort

[humble iron]

Have we seen the same endings ?

[vital ruin]

Does it mean Delicate flower withered because the shade lord killed the pantheon thats why it withered?

[toxic mulch]

Well only 1 petal got corrupted

[slow olive]

Too late now u have to elaborate

[steep talon]

hell nah, im outta of here

[vital ruin]

It shows the same ending as Etc were hornet got confronted by the knight except it showed the guy with the flower disappearing and it withered

[inner torrent]

I though the everbloom doesn't breaks because its a memory or smth

[humble iron]

The ending with the flower basically means that the shade lord isn't released into the physical world

[toxic mulch]

Flower ending doesn't seem likely

[steep talon]

actually fuck it i came back

is elegy of the deep and the song that god seekers sing sounds similar to anyone else?

[fathom hill]

Ok so that's interesting

[slow olive]

Id need a side by side of it

Either it gets teleported or obliterated

Im assuming teleported if we still see shade lord in silksong

[inner torrent]

I assumed it just "Separated it" back to just void

[dusky bay]

Is moorwing scared of the fleas?
For some reason if you use the flea carven he just vanishes
But you cant do the same with the last judge

Yes moorwing comes back in the future but like-

[humble iron]

I mean they do eat moorwing at some point

[edgy barn]

He also vanishes if you enter greymoor through bellheart

[vital ruin]

It's theorized the fleas killed him
you can actually see morwing's body in one of the caravan his tied on it

[edgy barn]

The fleas didn't kill him, Hornet does.

[humble iron]

Yeah the body only appears once hornet kills him doesn't it ?

[dusky bay]

...ok wth is wrong with the fleas 😭

[humble iron]

meat is meat

Weavers used to eat people ok

Eating moorwing is not as bad

[vital ruin]

You can actually skip moorwing if you get enough Lost fleas

Moving them to greymoor skips the boss

[dusky bay]

Yea but
Moorwing runs away when you bring the flea carven even after the whole scary part of him in the background

[humble iron]

It's the subject of the conversation buddy

[whole marsh]

Its implied that its causing problems all over Greymoor. It just happens to be hanging out in the area we fight it when we fight it. When the fleas show up it’s probably just somewhere else. You can apparently fight it somewhere else after the fleas leave.

[hidden crater]

i love how a majority of GMS "voice lines" are just her screaming

[edgy barn]

He reapppears in Act 2 if you do that

[dusky bay]

He comes back with a beast shard

[dusky bay]

After you move the carven again I think

[compact lantern]

Yep, that happened to me and I had to load an autosave to get moorwing entry on the journal 🫡 I didn't know if he would show up later or not

[humble iron]

Moorwing is basically hunting down his old captors I'm pretty sure, according to the entry

[vestal swan]

Basically

[slow olive]

Her screaming in the void as i crashed out while doing flea dodge was very apt

[edgy barn]

Not specifically the old captors but just anyone it comes across.

[vital ruin]

Forgot where i saw it but it said there was 2 moorwings exist in the game

[humble iron]

nah there's not idt

[dusky bay]

You can't do the same to the judge
Only moorwing
I think fleas back then would hunt moorwing species
You do see one old flea in the citadel

[edgy barn]

Untrue. There's just the one moorwing.

[vestal swan]

The moorwing species was basically bred as the watch dogs over the roach farms and factories and after it's captors died or got haunted it got loose and started hunting everything

[dusky bay]

You can skip the second moorwing fight right?
By just
Running

[vestal swan]

There's not a second fight

It only shows up outside of bellhart

[edgy barn]

I think he means when he reappears in act 2 if you skipped him before

[fathom hill]

I'm sure there's a fight sfter you skip it just up?

[dusky bay]

There is if you do the flea skip

[edgy barn]

Or the bellheart skip

[inner torrent]

Act 2 moorwing should do 3 damage

[fathom hill]

I know cuz my first casual run I cheesed it with a lil platform near the ground

[vestal swan]

[dusky bay]

Yea around the fast travel station

[edgy barn]

It does become Voided in Act 3

[dusky bay]

I think you can also just run and ignore him
But he only reappears after you move the fleas to last judge

[dusky bay]

what

[compact lantern]

Wait what

[dusky bay]

I did see someone post a voided beastfly from the far fields area....

[alpine talon]

Is grimm a remasked weaver? Or a descendant of one

[vestal swan]

Grimm is a creation of The nightmare heart

It's its own vessel

[fathom hill]

yah yah i remember being confused at why so many people hated him so much when he was optional, but that's cuz i skipped it lol

[edgy barn]

If you skipped Moorwing in Act 1, and didn't fight it in Act 2 either, When Act 3 rolls around it becomes voided.

[vestal swan]

I'm so glad I killed everything and did everything before moving on, I do not want to fight random bosses but with void

[slow olive]

I fought moorwing in act 1 before he got nerfed.... that was my first crash out moment on a silksong boss

[fathom hill]

ain't that the nice lil challenge

[dusky bay]

I only skipped him bec I am doing 100% speedrun

[slow olive]

Took me so many tries to beat moorwing even with garmond helping me

[compact lantern]

I spent three full hours trying to beat him

[dusky bay]

Dw you don't get locked with the second one you can just run by him

[slow olive]

At least it was fun hearing garmond shout zanzibo everytime i died lmao

[alpine talon]

Why dose reaper crest gave grimms moves as attacks

[whole holly]

guys is there unique interaction of getting the parasite after overdosing on plasmium?

[vital ruin]

Apparantly you can fight The first sinner in void form

[dusky bay]

Also why does everyone say widow is hard
She is very fun tbh
I liked fighting her so much

[alpine talon]

Is it just for the namesake? Grimm reaper?

[compact lantern]

I heard "sexy bomb" every single time he shouted that 🤣🤣

[fathom hill]

Yah I can see it

I actually never made that connection before that's kind of neat

[dusky bay]

Actually good point
The dash attack is the up grimm attack

[whole holly]

i feel like i should at least in DLCs

[inner torrent]

Wait guys, can you imagine the pantheon as a VOID PANTHEON

[slow olive]

Fun but definitely hard, imo shes like a skill check boss

[vestal swan]

I didn't even realize the reaper crest looked anything like grimms attacks until you said it tbh

[whole holly]

me neither

[dusky bay]

When I was speedrunning 100% I almost killed her around the end
I EVEN PULLED OFF A CRIT 😭

[fathom hill]

The uppercut is a giveaway but idk abt the others

[inner torrent]

Of course it looks like Grimm
The bug that we bind for it was a Grimm troupe follower

[hidden crater]

someone made a mod where everythings voided 😭

[vestal swan]

But yeah it has the uppercut the massive downslash etc, the only thing it doesn't have is the magic obviously

[frosty gate]

The what

[whole holly]

do you have proof, it didn't even resemble colorwise

[vestal swan]

There are no troupe members in silksong

[alpine talon]

There is suspicious amount of things stolen from grimm moveset, like the funny drill attack and scuttle being the same as grimm backing off, and then the reaper crest moveset

[whole holly]

it had no traits

[edgy barn]

The beastfly is vanilla tho. Several bosses become voided if you didn't kill them before Act 3.

[slow olive]

Hornet is the nightmare child new lore fresh out the oven

[vestal swan]

What do you mean suspicious and stolen bro they made both games... Wanderers Crest is also TK's moveset

[whole holly]

that is spoiler of next game having grimm knight as protag

[vestal swan]

It's just nods to the first game if anything

[inner torrent]

I'm sorry I was bad informing purposely, promise never do again

[inner torrent]

YES

[dusky bay]

I hope they are balanced
TC balances voided enemy
Like the big guard dude in hunter's march when it's voided it only spawns the lil things on the ground

[alpine talon]

Not the point

[fathom hill]

I thought maybe the silk that floats in the air it's kind of grimms wisps but thats a stretch

[inner torrent]

Actually, it would be interesting if hornet is actually interested in the nightmares.
Just as the knight got interested in dreams
Hornet is red

[whole holly]

some people hate idea and genuinely prefer quirrel

[inner torrent]

Quirrel is just not protagonist material

Neither is lace imo

[dusky bay]

TK?
The knight?
If so ye but the range is wayyy shorter

[vestal swan]

Hornet isn't red she wears a red cloak

[fathom hill]

hornet is red is your argument for her interest if nightmares? xd

[hidden crater]

When I said everything I mean everything

Even the bosses

[vestal swan]

The range is the same TK is way smaller than hornet

[alpine talon]

You could say that the fireflies from whisp thicket could be grimms magic, but only on a technicality, because they are not the same thing, but simular

[dusky bay]

Hornet is a fucking stickbug

[fathom hill]

Ain't that fun

[inner torrent]

I mean, it could be a good narrative tool that is used to induce a relationship between characters

[slow olive]

Sherma game next but u just explore a kingdom with ur nifty triangle instrument

[vestal swan]

Not even remotely

[whole marsh]

What’s funny about this is that it’s actually way easier when it’s voided because it summons way less enemies. So it’s actually a lot easier than the non-voided varient

[dusky bay]

Oh god
Voided bellbeast...
Or worst
......voided unraveled

[whole holly]

this game doesn't really have to set up next one, it doesn't introduce good protag materials in game

[fathom hill]

I know it's just kind of funny

[vestal swan]

They could easily finish this game and any more stories with like five or six DLCs which they have infinite time to work on, which by the way prediction see y'all in 2030, there's no reason to set up another game

[whole holly]

are you saying they aren't similar?

[vestal swan]

They're not similar lol

Just because one uses fireballs?

[inner torrent]

I kinda remember hearing smth about team cherry planning next games to not be connected to hollow knight storyline, so that's probably why

[whole holly]

they are comparing fireballs tho

[whole marsh]

The only similarity is they’re both fire. The aren’t even the same color of fire

[inner torrent]

I mean, fire sect
And fire sect
Iou can't say there is no similarities

[fathom hill]

Hornet is black

[alpine talon]

'Hollow Knight: Lace Mace' when?

[hidden crater]

Considering that void doubles or even quadruples an enemies hp I dont even wanna imagine

[slow olive]

Oh are we talking about the father flame boss

[inner torrent]

But yeah, clearly the father of flame cult is more of a flame flame sect than a scarlet flame of nightmares sect

[vestal swan]

The nightmare heart and the troupe are not a fire sect they call it the Scarlet flame metaphorically it's just red essence

[whole holly]

they are comparing flame and flame and calling it similar not same

[slow olive]

That was kinda gnarly tho ngl, the effigy thingy looked creepy

[alpine talon]

I whould still include the firefly blue tool if you ever wanna do a grimm cosplay in silksong for fun

[slow olive]

Like is there a flame bug higher being somewhere in pharloom

[dusky bay]

1000hp forth chorus

[vestal swan]

As far as we can tell they were sacrificing bugs to summon those wisps and they were worshiping them to try and make them stronger, probably to fight off the silk

[toxic mulch]

1st-3rd chorus fights when

[whole marsh]

Yoo Fourth Chorus is skippable right? I kinda wana see if we can fight a voided variation in Act 3

[inner torrent]

Metaphorically is kind of a stretch, "red essence" is indeed a flame, is just the way red essence works like

[hidden crater]

4th chorus is skippable but I dont think it can get voided

[whole holly]

they revolve around nightmare essence which manifests as scarlet flame, FotF is bug burning that uses Wisp Flame, they are both ritualistic, visually similar flame concept

[vestal swan]

No they can use it to make flames it is not itself a flame

[inner torrent]

Yellowish essence is usually called light, and it indeed is light, just the way dreams work like

[fathom hill]

yeah cuz I'm sure the skip it's just an oversight and not intended yeah?

[whole holly]

meaningless distinction considering we are comparing fire aspects of both sect

[alpine talon]

I have a better connection, one revolves around Nightmare heart while other is in spooky location, father of flame is nightmare heart comfirmed (joke)

[frosty gate]

With an insane different purpose, it isn't really related.
The one thing that actually looks similar is how thw FotF's head looks like an upside down NH

[whole holly]

they are both ritual that is sustained by flames(it doesn't matter if Scarlet Flame is just Essence)

[inner torrent]

Father of flame has a heart tho, that's interesting 🤔🤔🤔

[slow olive]

So they just mistook firebugs for a god basically?

[whole holly]

discussion revolves around comparing flame aspects of both cult

[frosty gate]

We don't even know about the magic FotF and the cult uses

[inner torrent]

We do tho?

[frosty gate]

It's just fire

[inner torrent]

No, is soul and fire

[slow olive]

The tool u get from them uses up silk tho right

[inner torrent]

Most likely just fire given life through the use of soul.
Maybe some sacrifices or something

[slow olive]

Or is that just coz its hornet using it

[whole holly]

we are comparing visual similarities, and similar aspects, nobody thinks they are same or Wisp Fire is related to Troupe

[frosty gate]

We have a confirmation for that?

[frosty gate]

Oh ok, sure

[inner torrent]

I mean, "Whisp" are spiritual flames.
The charm wastes silk(which power comes from soul) to create whisps.
Maybe is not a direct confirmation but I think is pretty close that

[whole holly]

but i really think Wisp Lore should be expanded upon as well as plasmium lore

[inner torrent]

Wisp infection when

[frosty gate]

"Wasting" is actually Burning. They are not Haunted and they can't be possesed by the Void later on. This is because they're using the fire to burn the silk, effectively keeping them sane. Silk, has Soul.
They're not exactly using soul on purpose for all we know

[alpine talon]

I whould like a dlc revolving around theese

[inner torrent]

that kinda makes sense now that I think of it.
I have a firefly Whisp cultist oc so this matter is kinda interesting to me

What do we know about the father of flame practices? Do we know any kind of ritual they do? Sacrifices? Dances?

[alpine talon]

Do you think that hornet is going to make a path of pain? (not in game but as an hypothetical future) She seems to be a fan of meat boy like her father

[craggy sluice]

okay so this probably can go in both games channels but

do the Weavers all use feminine terms as like a cultural thing? or is it like an all-female species?

[glad osprey]

hiya (person originally asking the question about to comr lol)
there it is

[craggy sluice]

[inner torrent]

Hmmm, never thought of that, supposedly gms just ascended pharlids.
Are pharlids ever mentioned to be a female powered species

[frosty gate]

I'm unsure of the sentience of that thing. Like it defended itself and all but... It's a wooden doll

It screamed at us

[craggy sluice]

i mean all the known Weavers in Hallownest were female too iirc

[frosty gate]

It's so fucking creepy

[glad osprey]

not a significant question just curious bc both have cool implications

(linguistics fan)

[frosty gate]

I'd say it was like one of the Rulers but it didn't give out a heart

[alpine talon]

Is it stated in lore that all weavers are female? What if its just in the nature of an weaver to like pretty dresses

[inner torrent]

I'm curious of what is the father of flame "Essence"
Is he a god that is just forming? We killed a baby god?
Or did we just kill a vessel of a god that may have existed before out or in another realm

[craggy sluice]

this is literally what we're trying to figure out

[slow olive]

First sinner says GMS called them all daughters

So im going with weavers being all female

[frosty gate]

It might be a God in the making, the Burning Bugs were praying to it and when we kill it the Burning Bugs just inmolate
Reminder that Praise and Following gives things power

[craggy sluice]

but then begs the question of are they all female presenting due to culture or if they're entirely a female species

[slow olive]

GMS also seems to just want only daughters

She created lace and phantom as daughters too

[inner torrent]

She prob read Freud or smth

[vestal swan]

The tablets also always address sisters

[glad osprey]

ohhh that makes sense
just wondering bc it opens up interesting ideas…weaver headcanons

[steep talon]

trans-masc weaver that is Hunter from HK. no but seriosly why does he have the same eyes, lmao

[craggy sluice]

wait phantom is related to GMS?

[inner torrent]

Yeah, is her non-favorite daughter

[fossil tendon]

Hi, I just killed GMS, is she like my adopted grandmum or smth?

[craggy sluice]

transmasc weaver

[slow olive]

Phantom is lace's sister

[vestal swan]

Nobody is really related to gms, she raised up the weavers from lower bugs and she created the other two children out of silk

[inner torrent]

Gms don't like phantom because she went on a theater kid face (she never outgrew it)

[slow olive]

If we're going with GMS making all weavers and GMS seemingly wanting daughters due to the evidence of lace and phantom, then i think theyre an entirely female species

[fossil tendon]

Are we Phantom or is that a character I’ve yet to meet

[slow olive]

Its a different character from hornet

[craggy sluice]

phantom is the alternate boss to get into act 2

[fossil tendon]

Oh I see

[silk dirge]

i mean other pale beings might depending how they were created

[craggy sluice]

gotta get into Bilewater to get to her

[silk dirge]

but we dont know that

[fossil tendon]

Are GMS and Phantom buddies?

Or is it more like a Pale King Radiance situation

[vestal swan]

True she could have family that we don't know about but none of the things beneath her are truly her children is what I meant

[slow olive]

Its mother daughter situation

[alpine talon]

What if GMS has gender bend abilities, and some of the original weavers are just trans

[craggy sluice]

do we know that GMS is a pale being?

[jaunty elm]

why would hornet bound it to void 😔

[fossil tendon]

Who’s the mum?

[glad osprey]

real answer is I wanna come up with Weaver terminology bc how this affects their language (whether culturally or Actually all-female) is really cool to me

[craggy sluice]

they're prolly all fem

[inner torrent]

Phantom has mommy issues but it doesn't get to that "I want to fucking kill you" side but more into the "Do whatever you want idc" side

[glad osprey]

yea suspectsd

[jaunty elm]

isint there a theory the weavers created the religion to upkeep the silk song to keep gms asleep

[slow olive]

Hornet calles her a pale monarch so based on that she is highly likely to be a pale being, add to that all the feats she also does in the lore (like creating the weavers from pharlids)

[craggy sluice]

why was Phantom set in the exhaust organ anyway?

[vestal swan]

As far as we can tell everything GMS created was female

[jaunty elm]

to exile the useless one

[inner torrent]

Gms needed someone to avoid pilgrim's to enter through sinner's road to the city or smth

[craggy sluice]

like i know the exhaust organ was to channel out the citadel's waste and very likely why Bilewater is the way it is

[slow olive]

GMS saw her as frail due to her silk body not being strong enough so she gave her the task of helming the exhaust organ

[alpine talon]

To be an masterclass aura farmer

[fossil tendon]

Ok so the family tree is like

  GMS (big boss)
            /

Phantom

Lace
/
Hornet
?

[slow olive]

Gms disapproved of her like phantom of the opera a bit too much

[craggy sluice]

i feel like there should've been a unique interaction with her if you played the Needolin while Phantom was playing

[jaunty elm]

hornet is even higher than the boss

[fossil tendon]

Not quite sure what this means

[jaunty elm]

big boss

[inner torrent]

Phantom and lace are sisters.
And hornet is like a really distant nephew of them.???

[slow olive]

Phantom too much of a diva to let hornet play with her lets be real

[fossil tendon]

Oh so Hornet is doing boss in disguise kinda thing seeing if her employees are fucking up

[jaunty elm]

metal gear

[slow olive]

Lets hope herrah is not a direct creation of GMS coz if she is thats very awkward for the lace x hornet shippers

[alpine talon]

Phantom lace are sisters, phantom has wraiths as her children, then probably Herah was a daughter of gms and herah had hornet

[slow olive]

That would make herrah and lace as technically siblings.... and lace would be hornet's aunt.....

[alpine talon]

Lace and phantom are aunts to hornet and wraiths are nieces

[fossil tendon]

My homework now is to make this an easily understandable chart

[vestal swan]

Phantom and lace our sisters hornet is a descendant of one of the first "weavers"
Technically lace is her aunt

So is phantom

[fossil tendon]

Is Phantom a boss fight?

[craggy sluice]

honestly the only reasonable ship in my eyes is hornet and shakra

[slow olive]

Yep

[fossil tendon]

Cool. I’ll go talk about that elsewhere later
Also what’s the deal with the gay bees

[alpine talon]

That tree is gonna be huge, there is a lot of wraiths and weavers in the family tree

[craggy sluice]

i literally said she was 🥀

[fossil tendon]

I fucking love them

[slow olive]

The gay bees??

Do u mean the cogwork dancers

[fossil tendon]

There’s a lot of messages and I can’t be relied on to see all of them

Yeah the lovely gay bees. They’re lovers right?

[hardy linden]

They're not

[craggy sluice]

twin you literally replied to it

[slow olive]

Well technically theyre one soul

[hardy linden]

They're the same bug, but the soul has been split into two

[slow olive]

It is a gay soul tho

[fossil tendon]

I also cannot be relied on to remember things I have or haven’t said

[craggy sluice]

oh you mean dancers

[fossil tendon]

(Half joke)

[fossil tendon]

Is it like there’s two wolves inside of you except they’re gay and bees?

[craggy sluice]

yeah the dancers share a soul of the Green Prince's lover

[fossil tendon]

Oh I rescued him then never saw him again. Or did I?

[slow olive]

Try going back to the area after that

[craggy sluice]

you find him in various spots in the citadel

[frosty gate]

Which is the second time we've seen this happen i believe

[craggy sluice]

i think the first place is the cogwork dancers arena

[fossil tendon]

I don’t remember seeing him there

Maybe I missed something

[craggy sluice]

*after killing the dancers

[fossil tendon]

I’ll go back later. Also he’s probably largely irrelevant but what’s going on with that chef guy

[slow olive]

Ass jim?

[fossil tendon]

That’s his name?

[craggy sluice]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-chef-luigi-sinners-road-hollow-knight-gif-16058734072366293569

[slow olive]

Oh wait do u mean the one in the citadel

[fossil tendon]

I thought it was like Disgruntled Chef Luigi or something lmao

[fossil tendon]

No these guys

[vestal swan]

Huh?

[fossil tendon]

The big guy that comes after those two

[slow olive]

Yea ass jim

[craggy sluice]

luiogi or whatever her name is is a required boss for a specific quest

[fossil tendon]

You’ve gotta be shitting me is his name ass Jim?

[craggy sluice]

no it isn't

[frosty gate]

PK also did rise up common bugs and gave them sentience right?

[slow olive]

Lmao no some peeps in this server call her that

[fossil tendon]

Oh she’s a lady?

[frosty gate]

"The Light"

[slow olive]

I think so

[vestal swan]

Not nearly comparable, he didn't turn a bunch of pests into walking talking bugs, the pest creatures still existed. GMS actually mutated and basically created a whole new species

He just made some of them smarter

[craggy sluice]

anyway lugoli drops an item required to get one of the nail upgrades obtainable in act 2

[fossil tendon]

No I did the quest I was just wondering what her story is

[slow olive]

Wait nvm the wiki uses they for ass jim

[craggy sluice]

possibly, her name in the Spanish translation alludes to her being female

[hardy linden]

Ass Jim is male iirc

Also Hornet uses they/them for bugs she doesn't know in her journal

like Phantom, who is female

[slow olive]

Hunter's journal entry doesnt exactly give any pronouns for em

Ooohh really

[craggy sluice]

"Lugoli, chef caída en desgracia"

[edgy barn]

She was a chef at the citadel but was expelled after commiting multiple "cullinary crimes". Whether that means cannibalism or just that her cooking sucks is for you to decide.

[hardy linden]

Wait, Nevermind

[vestal swan]

Cannibalism isn't really looked down on as much in this world as everybody thinks it would be, also it doesn't look like that happened because they're still cooking muckroaches

[sinful nimbus]

Jim isn't a girls name

Eating sapient bugs sounds like it'd be pretty looked down upon

[frosty gate]

I mean the mites are pests too right? We know she mutated only the Weavers, we don't exactly know what PK did to the bugs, we just know he "Expanded their minds". I agree it sounds like a stretch, but we've only seen to instances of "Elevating commons bugs" and both have been Pale Beings reffered to as "Light"

[craggy sluice]

it really isn't

[hardy linden]

I am wrong. According to the wiki (and dialogue from the hungry bug's waiter)

Seek out a Pickled Muckmaggot, the sacred treat revered and reviled for its intensity. It was a specialty of the chef Lugoli, long ago banished for culinary sacrilege.
Rumours sing that the great chef retreated to their home-caves in the dank midlands below...

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

[craggy sluice]

literally right here

[slow olive]

Apparently theres a secret room in that boss area?

Up top theres some pickled intelligent bugs or smth according to the wiki

[edgy barn]

There's a secret room above Lugoli's arena where you can see several preseved sapient bugs. Also, Lugoli's own assistants will put her body at the table ready to chop it up if you return.

[hardy linden]

There's nothing there but jars

[sinful nimbus]

You can make the parallel there sure but its a mental growth not a physical one

[craggy sluice]

also like

aren't the dog roaches literally farmed in sinner's road

[hardy linden]

They are

[slow olive]

Theyre not intelligent bugs theyre bred to be food

[sinful nimbus]

Dog roaches aren't sapient yeah

[craggy sluice]

at one point they probably were is my point

[edgy barn]

Sinner's Road is just a large muckroach farm to provide Greymoor with food.

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

[edgy barn]

proof?

[craggy sluice]

can i not theorize

[slow olive]

Dont think so coz benjen and crull say theyre bred for food

[sinful nimbus]

I mean you can say stuff but without evidence there's not much of a reason to believe you

[slow olive]

They start out as muckmaggots, then they turn into the muckroaches

[frosty gate]

I don't exactly know what you're raising an eyebrow to

[craggy sluice]

can i not theorize

it's a game about bugs it isn't that deep

[frosty gate]

It actually really deep considering we go to the abyss 🥁

[sinful nimbus]

Its not deep you were just asked for evidence vro 💔

[slow olive]

I mean u can..... but there's not much in game evidence that muckroaches were previously intelligent so the theory doesnt hold

[craggy sluice]

[slow olive]

What they are is annoying tho in all their forms

Hornet should be racist to them too

[craggy sluice]

i mean i like to think that Pharloom was more prosperous before GMS entered the picture, though i haven't exactly gotten to act 3 yet so i'm not sure how this holds up

[slow olive]

Definitely more prosperous, there were more kingdoms in pharloom before gms

[frosty gate]

It really wasn't or so it seems.

[craggy sluice]

GMS definitely had her favorites

[slow olive]

GMS is a spider girlie

[craggy sluice]

iirc the only area that was entirely untouched by GMS was Hunter's March, though that might be because of the Skarrsinger

[slow olive]

Mhm it was definitely because of karmelita

[frosty gate]

We don't really know what was there before GMS actual arrival. Like the terrain was there, but we don't know much more than that

[craggy sluice]

or might*'ve* because she's kinda gone now

[edgy barn]

You are right but you shouldn't be here if you haven't finished Act 3.

[frosty gate]

During the events? Wisp Thicket and Bilewater don't seem infected either

[slow olive]

The old hearts quests kinda shows a glimpse of pharloom before gms tho

[craggy sluice]

meh, i know bits and pieces already

[slow olive]

Four parts of it even

[frosty gate]

That's pre citadel

[edgy barn]

You mean infected as in haunted?

[frosty gate]

Or before the Citadel went to hell

[craggy sluice]

wasn't Bilewater literally tainted by the citadel's waste

[frosty gate]

Yeah but they're not Haunted apparently

[frosty gate]

Haunted, mb

[slow olive]

Where was this implied

[edgy barn]

They actually are, Groal gets strings when you play the needolin.

[craggy sluice]

also i forget why exactly did groal eat a shaman

[edgy barn]

Power

[slow olive]

For the soul

[frosty gate]

I keep forgetting that I should needolin shit

[slow olive]

Same lmao

[craggy sluice]

me too

i forget Needolin is a thing ngl

[slow olive]

I get straight to battling i didnt even know u could needolin some bosses mid fight

[craggy sluice]

anyway another odd question but what exactly is the twisted bud

like. how could it do Allat

[frosty gate]

I don't think it was, but GMS was there before a lot of things, even the Citadel. The Citadel was the cause of the demise of other places, and the Citadel, for what we know, was convoluted a cage for Silk for what I understood

[slow olive]

I thought the citadel was a cage for gms herself

[frosty gate]

I meant Silk as GMS, her name is still Silk

[slow olive]

Oh right

Hmmm it is true that the timelines for the old hearts is pretty vague

[frosty gate]

So yeah, The Citadel was originally a cage for GMS. It was The Citadel that fucked other kingdoms, not really GMS

[slow olive]

But yea i kinda get that its kinda improbable theyd be before gms entered pharloom

[frosty gate]

If anything, they could be while GMS was playing Dollhouse with the Weavers and nothing had happened yet

[slow olive]

True.... we dont get a glimpse to that time in the game right?

Like most weaver lore we get from the weavenests are post rebellion?

[edgy barn]

I suppose we get Widow's memory with all the weavers playing music for GMS

[slow olive]

Could that be them lulling gms to sleep?

[edgy barn]

Unlikely, the memory ends with the phrase "For her light, eternal, our song sustains"

[frosty gate]

Pretty much yeah. There's an interesting gap in the story connecting Weavers to The Citadel

[slow olive]

Oh right so that was when the weavers were still enjoying their daughter status

[edgy barn]

And yet GMS still gets the blame in all their storylines because "true ruler all along" or smth.

[slow olive]

Mhm based on the convos here thats where most of the fun theorizing is at lol

[slow olive]

How so?

[sinful nimbus]

Thanks Team Cherry

GMS is bad just trust us bro

Meet potential Higher Being

[slow olive]

GMS becomes kinda bad coz of the haunting tho right?

[frosty gate]

Like we know The Citadel is there to keep GMS asleep with the music, which is why everything is music-themed.
If that's the case, it means The Citadel was likely built or made by the Weavers.
Yet, there's literally no connection between the two. No hint of Weavers ever being there. And to top it all off, people don't like Weavers

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but it seems we're supposed to think she's bad before that

[frosty gate]

No, she's the source of the Haunting

[edgy barn]

Khann talks about resisting the pale light, Karmelita curses the creature pale, and Hornet talks about Verdania being caught beneath a being pale.

[slow olive]

Mhm true, there's more weaver stuff outside the citadel

[frosty gate]

I didn't get that from the notes really.

I don't think she's bad, she's...

Fuck how do I put this without being burnt in a stake

[slow olive]

Yea which is making bugs hostile to other bugs

Like maybe she's doing it involuntarily sure, but shes also making her subjects kidnap other weaver spawns

So she does have some kind of ulterior motive

[frosty gate]

GMS is a mother, a controlling one, but I don't think she was bad. No proof of that from what I remember

[edgy barn]

Even if she is doing involuntarily is still something she wants to, we know that because of the silk heart dialogue.

[slow olive]

Hmmmm... maybe even before the citadel gms had her sights on their lands as well? Like she wasn't content with turning the pharlids into weavers. Connects with hornet's primal urge to be in control due to her pale heritage kind of

[edgy barn]

you mean bad as in evil or bad as in a bad mother.

[frosty gate]

Bad as in evil, she was most definitely a bad mother.

I wonder when was Lace even created, before or after the Weavers?

[slow olive]

Mhm i saw a video with this kind of theory explaining gms and pale king's differences as rulers and it does make sense to see them as taking on parent roles just in different ways, both ending in bad ways whether intended or not

[unreal estuary]

After the Weavers left I think

She wanted a child born pure who wouldn't betray her after the weavers betrayed her

"Better a child spun pure... than them"

[slow olive]

So she made lace and phantom while she was asleep?

[frosty gate]

Tbf Pk doesn't even want to be a goddamn dad, he just had the children to stop Rad. Bastard got too attached to HK is all

[unreal estuary]

Most likely, I mean even while asleep she was able to start the haunting

Either that or she created the two of them after First Sinner defected

[frosty gate]

PK is the Dad that didn't want a Cat but then loves it

[unreal estuary]

and she saw that her children were imperfect