sk-lore

[slim tree]

god why did they just abuse eva after forcing her into existsnce

[dusky bay]

Bec that's her daughter that she made by herself
Weavers are insects she gave them intelligent and mutated them to weavers

[atomic dirge]

The Slab mentions two sinners that are "(X) of the First"
judging by "first of the first" being First Sinner, we can assume "the first" are Weavers

[slim tree]

she still saw the weavers as her children, thats what she told them

[atomic dirge]

which leaves Twelfth of the First, who was punished by "casting"

this reddit post i shared above theorized that "casting" could be being cast in iron, which explains the Weaver statue which is for some god damn reason in the Cauldron

and given the Slab has Atla's weaver effigy

[slim tree]

why are we even discussing this when we have bigger issues like twelfth architect x second sentinel not being popular

[steep ridge]

second sentinel x hornet better

[stuck berry]

second sentinel was just reborn 🥀

[atomic dirge]

the other connections were way more direct, but that left Clawline and Thread Storm, with the only remaining weavers being Atla and Murglin

[clear cloak]

The First Sinner says she lied though.

[slim tree]

second sentienl x those mfs in greymoor with the scissors

[molten python]

Second Sentinel x Dead robot?

[edgy barn]

Does the clawline weaver look any different from the other statue?

[atomic dirge]

the wall around it is destroyed

[dusky bay]

Then why did she put them all in cages?
And widow is the only weaver to look different
To not own a mask like the others
The mask changes personality
Mask makers talk differently when you take their mask off
Widow's mask has been forcefully removed and she got pinned with 2 pins to limit her powers
It's obivous widow isn't the same

[slim tree]

….yeah.. about them being her children. That doesnt mean she didnt see them as her own though

[atomic dirge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1380233368523898991/1425570046742237375/twelfth-of-the-first-also-slab-and-underworks-theorizing-v0-avzpbyiggwtf1.webp?ex=68e81110&is=68e6bf90&hm=f42731598eb9e3ad433a1b90871056eadb52e9134493bf649051df1d7f667b6c&

[stuck berry]

we could get forgedaughter to rebuild em

[atomic dirge]

almost like this weaver was taken here

[slim tree]

I thought she had put all the weavers in cages to bring them back to pharloom

[frosty gate]

Can you take the mask off from Mask Maker here?

[steep ridge]

they're one of the architects, I doubt forgedaughter has the skill to rebuild them

[molten python]

With Silk Skills, yes.

[stuck berry]

i believe

[steep ridge]

also needle strikes

[dusky bay]

Yes use the charged ability you get from the pintress

And you can remove his mask

[frosty gate]

Oh damn, didn't know

[dusky bay]

Now wait wrong star

[steep ridge]

mask maker in pharloom way cooler for actually telling you what he's talking about

[atomic dirge]

good that we've finally solved the weaver and skill connections

[dusky bay]

https://tenor.com/view/now-you-know-the-more-you-know-no-kidding-no-shit-obviously-gif-1342210079425559607

[stuck berry]

benefits from actually being able to converse with you this time

[sinful nimbus]

There is only one right Star

[steep ridge]

this means we can now slander certain weavers due to their skills

[atomic dirge]

first sinner more like worst sinner

[stuck berry]

hollow knight 3 should introduce aliens

[steep ridge]

murglin is the goat karn is a fraud

[frosty gate]

I wonder what's the deal with them, the Mask Makers

[edgy nebula]

where was karn again

[steep ridge]

well

[sinful nimbus]

A flatwoods monster inspired design could work

[frosty gate]

Like yeah, they make masks

But why are they so cryptic?

[steep ridge]

they make masks

[stuck berry]

thk fights a giant sumo wrestler

[edgy nebula]

well why not!

[steep ridge]

wormways

[edgy nebula]

oh yeah karn's ass

[vocal compass]

They have an image to uphold idk

[stuck berry]

who is that weaver that gives you threadstorm i must shower her with adoration

[atomic dirge]

weavenest karn, where you get darp shart

[steep ridge]

glad we're slandering weavers we haven't seen now

[pseudo charm]

I think groal killed the seeker out of greed. I think the stilkin would probably accept more people lol

[steep ridge]

murglin

shoutout murglin this is now a murglin stan account

[frosty gate]

Plus, normal bugs don't know of things like Void and Pale Beings, but both Mask Makers know shit they shouldn't

[atomic dirge]

murglin funnily enough is the only one we have no leads on it's just the only one left lmao

[stuck berry]

murglin your name sucks but i love you

[edgy nebula]

murglin and atla are goated, cindril has aura

[steep ridge]

all we know is that she was the goat due to giving us thread storm

[molten python]

Mask Makers are higher beings.

[atomic dirge]

most weavers: "we've learned to bind silk into deadly weapons"
cindril: "i'm fast as fuck, boy"

[frosty gate]

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or nah

[vocal compass]

There is nothing suporting this

[stuck berry]

swift WISHES

[vocal compass]

Oh, sarcasm

[steep ridge]

all the other weavers had to WALK everywhere

[molten python]

There's three types of higher beings. The normal ones, like Unn, the Nightmare Heart, or the Radiance. Above them are the Pale Beings like the Pale King, the White Lady, or Grand Mother Silk. At the very top are the Mask Makers.

[frosty gate]

Fair, fair, seems legit

[vocal compass]

The mask makers make masks that have a similar effect to pk's beacon

[stuck berry]

we don't know that

the pilgrims seem to be decently intelligent and they lack masks

[edgy barn]

I feel like Murglin is more likely to be clawline than Atla is. We know she was a tool maker and Clawline is the one ability that feels more like a tool than it does magic. Her weavenest is also the closest proximity wise.

Also, what do you think of the theory than Atla and First Sinner were the same?

[vocal compass]

Mask lore is complicated. You're right i mixed normal masks with ancient masks

[frosty gate]

Jokes aside, should we rank Higher Beings or are they all in the same level?
Except from Shadelord of course

[pseudo charm]

Does the haunting in bellhart go through their entire body?

Like does it pierce through the skin to enter and exit? Does it go through the whole body without harm? considering they are alive afterward lol

[atomic dirge]

i used to think that, but that'd leave one skill without a known weaver, and there's not much connecting them besides Slab

[frosty gate]

Hollow Knight: Masksong is needed to understand

[stuck berry]

you find an effigy dedicated to her in one of the apostate unlocks in the slab

to atla so the idea is she's atla by proximity

[edgy barn]

This reminds me, ancient masks in silksong are made out of pale ore

What do we make of that

[atomic dirge]

weavenest murglin is further from underworks than from craw lake

[molten python]

Where is that mentioned?

[frosty gate]

What even is the deal with Pale Ore by the way, is it divine? Did PK make it appear when he got to Hallownest? Was it just there and the Pale in the name is just a coincidence?

[edgy barn]

The description that you get after collecting every mask shard

[atomic dirge]

that's cindril i'm fucking stupid

but still weavenest murglin is closer to craw lake

[nimble ocean]

What’s weavernest murglin?

[edgy barn]

lol. You still correct tho. I just think Clawline fits better with what little we know about Murglin,

[vocal compass]

It is weird, considering we don't see a lot of pale ore in pharloom

[edgy barn]

Bilewater weavenest where you find the broken tool

[molten python]

What exactly does it say?

[nimble ocean]

Oh yeah, I forgot the name

[vocal compass]

Are they tho? Does it say in that hk journal entry i dont have

[nimble ocean]

Was the coral tower full of water at some point?

[molten python]

Yes.

[nimble ocean]

Cool

[vocal compass]

Damn this was delayed a faur bit

[frosty gate]

I wonder which came first, the Weavernest or Bilewater

[edgy barn]

"An ancient mask carved from cold, pale ore. The mask protects the wearer, guarding their shell against damage."

[atomic dirge]

https://tenor.com/view/say-that-again-gif-968943876633031890

[stuck berry]

why doesn't hornet smith her masks into a mightier blade is she stupid

[atomic dirge]

she dies in 3 hits do you want her to die in 1

[stuck berry]

i hate her so yes

[vocal compass]

She already has a mighty blade, just needs polishing

[whole marsh]

God of Gods:

• Nightmare Heart
• Radiance
• Shade Lord

Pale Beings

• Pale King
• White Lady
• Grand Mother Silk

(Other) Higher Beings

• Unn
• Lifeblood Creature

[lone folio]

I KNEW IT HE WAS A HIGHER BEING

[molten python]

Fandom moment.

[short cave]

wait

[vocal compass]

God of gods?

[stuck berry]

(summoned savior isn't a higher being just a mass of void)

[molten python]

Only the Shade Lord is the God of Gods. There's one God of Gods. It's not Gods of Gods.

[stuck berry]

you could put it as Gods of Dreams

[vocal compass]

God of gods? What?

[vocal compass]

[short cave]

@lone foliosummoned saviour?

[edgy barn]

Steel soul exclusive boss

[molten python]

Called the God of Gods by the Godseeker.

[whole marsh]

Absalute Radiance is also considered a God of Gods, until Shade Lord kills it. I'm just using the term to distinguish a tier above the pale beings, and other generic higher beings. Shade Lord, Nightmare Heart, and Radiance are in a league of thier own compared to the other higher beings

[lone folio]

Thats probably just because hes powerful

[frosty gate]

Not quite right

Shadelord is the only God of Gods because its more a Force of Nature than a being.

The Rads and NH, they both should be at the same level.

Pale Beings and Unn do pretty much the same, there's not a realy distinction that we know of

[short cave]

@edgy barni know but the thing in the image if you look at the bottom "summoned saviour"

[twin pagoda]

holy shit the final boss is actually madness

[vestal swan]

He's not

[molten python]

Why is Unn with the Pale Beings?

[vestal swan]

Godseeker: God of handing out shitty undeserved titles

[molten python]

Alluring God of Motherhood moment.

[frosty gate]

We don't know much of either to say one is more powerful than the other, they seem to have the same skills

[lone folio]

my friend its called a joke

[whole marsh]

Like in Bloodborn, where there's an umbrella term for "Great Ones", but the Moon Presence, and Orphan of Kos are in a league of their own when compared to Ebrieties, Rom, and the Amygdala, who are also considered Great Ones.

[vestal swan]

It's not a force of nature it's a being?
Rad and nightmare heart are not at the same level why are we power scaling in the first place
Pale being are not a separate tier either

[molten python]

We know Unn is weaker than the Pale King at least.

[vocal compass]

Unn isn't a pale being. Pk and the root mom is.

[vestal swan]

Nobody pale compares to Unn

[frosty gate]

Didn't say it was

[whole marsh]

It's both

[vestal swan]

No

It's not both it's a creature

[frosty gate]

Unn is a pacifist, she just got pushed over

[vestal swan]

They were said to surpass nature because that is what radiance used to be referred to and compared to

[lone folio]

the void is somewhat of a force of nature

[whole marsh]

Ununified it's more like a force of nature. When unified, it becomes a being

[vocal compass]

Mb twn. I misread.

[vestal swan]

No it's a bunch of creatures

[whole marsh]

Radiance is also considered a force of nature, to rivel the Void

[vestal swan]

And we aren't sure that it's natural

[vocal compass]

But unn is probably a tad weaker

[frosty gate]

I'm not powerscaling them.
Also, Dreams and Nightmares are two sides of the same coin

[vestal swan]

Being able to rival nature does not make you a force of nature

[vestal swan]

But radiance is not at the top of the dream realm where the nightmare heart is the top of the nightmare realm

[molten python]

Wtf do you even mean by force of nature.

[whole marsh]

But I'm just using the term God of Gods to distinguish levels of power between Higher Beings.

[frosty gate]

Who if not Radiance is at the top of the Dream Realm?

[vestal swan]

That title was given once to a winner of a 1v1 it doesn't apply anywhere else, stronger than rad

[molten python]

This is not Dragon Ball. Most Higher Being's capabilities aren't focused on combat.

They don't have power levels.

[vestal swan]

Doesn't need to be one but it's not her

[dawn gyro]

is it just me or does this guy in haunted bellhart look like a vessel

[whole marsh]

I'm not talking about combat

[wary crescent]

Spittin’ facts

[dusky bay]

Wait do all silksong ost count as string based instruments...?

[frosty gate]

Why would that even be?

[lone folio]

he does but he most defently isnt

[vestal swan]

They sorta do tbh, but they're not

[molten python]

A lot of bugs look like vessels. Have you seen Zote?

[dawn gyro]

true

[scenic tapir]

"Hornet: I cannot grant you mine, if it even were enough. My strength is still needed to face her below. Where else do you propose we seek a source?
CM : From Pharloom! Ho ho ho! Remember, ours is a kingdom of wishes granted.
BH : Pharloom was not born of that monarch, Old One. Power existed in these lands even before she bound them beneath her.
BH : Grnk. Seek the old hearts of our kingdom and the last successors to bear their strength."
what the hell is chapel maid talking about
kingdom of wishes granted...?

[dusky bay]

This dude was an enemy in hollownest smh.

[dawn gyro]

huh

[dusky bay]

In hollow knight an enemy was as tall as dis dude but infected

[molten python]

She is talking about Pharloom I think.

[frosty gate]

You mean the Jumpers?

[dawn gyro]

nah thats a diff guy, im thinking of the similarities to THIS guy

[dusky bay]

Also?
Like the piano does have strings...

[lone folio]

see thats what he looks like

[vestal swan]

There doesn't have to be a god for everything, we don't know the origins of a ton of things, most of the proper higher beings being some of them

[scenic tapir]

the floor is floor 😭

[dusky bay]

No they are two different peoole

[lone folio]

i was wondering where i have seen that kind of mask

[dawn gyro]

yes but very similar

[edgy nebula]

many of the silksong themes use brass, percussion instruments, etc

[frosty gate]

I mean, yeah, but with such a lack of evidence why would you assume Radiance is not at the top of the Dream Realm but the Nightmare Heart is at the top of the Nightmare Realm?

[edgy nebula]

alot of it is strings but it isnt only strings

[dawn gyro]

plus you would think that after having thousands of children atleast two of them would look alike

[dusky bay]

Dude the level of detail in the game is just so fucking good
Like TC HOW LONG WERE YOU IN THE LAB FOR

[dawn gyro]

unfortunately he dies after freeing haunted bellhart so we wont ever know for sure

[dawn gyro]

7 years

[vestal swan]

Because it's the heart of nightmares and it said to rule over them, where radiance is just a dream based light that made moths

[muted lantern]

Did hornet ever really meet hollow prior to the sealing? I assumed hornet only moved into the white palace after, considering her time with herrah was so brief, I assumed the sealing happened very early in hornets life

[dusky bay]

Have you looked at the old trailer again?
TC fully revamped the game and sounds

[vestal swan]

We aren't sure but it's possible, the red cutscene actually shows hornet in the White Palace as a kid

[vestal swan]

Reply fail

[dawn gyro]

yea, they aslso made the colors more vibrant but that might mostly be me playing on 150% brightness

[dusky bay]

You like blinding yourself I see

[muted lantern]

She looked grown in the white lady cutscene didn't she? I assumed that was after the sealing

[dawn gyro]

voltnest go brr

[lone folio]

isnt she THE god of essence?

where is it stated that she isnt or is?

[vocal compass]

Oooohhhhh. Im blinded by the liights

[vestal swan]

Hmmmm I don't remember the dialogue but actually it might have been post sealing

[vestal swan]

You need to find evidence telling me she is because nothing suggests that she is, you don't need to debunk something that's not said

[dusky bay]

Everytime I see enemies hanged
Ropped
Pinned or strapped my mind goes "collector 2?????"

Anyways
Flea or grubs

[lone folio]

i am not debunking? im asking for proof of anything said about her and the dream realms relation

[vocal compass]

Do we know what separate nightmare and dreams

[vocal compass]

Flea

[lone folio]

flea is cuter

[vocal compass]

Flea bounce is so fun

[muted lantern]

I guess she couldve visited the palace pre sealing, but I don't really know if she left deepnest before herrah went to sleep

[molten python]

No. It only says this:
"The folk of my tribe were born from a light. Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still."

[sinful nimbus]

In the context of HK "God of x" just refers to the traits and powers of an individual. Markoth is the god of meditation but he doesn't control all meditation or whatever. Radiance can be described as a god of essence because she can manipulate it but her power over it is not absolute

[lethal burrow]

godhome stature if you believe that

[edgy barn]

The grubs didn't make me play toxic minigames for my upgrades.

[vestal swan]

I know you aren't debunking ik saying if someone is trying to call her the god of dreams they need to provide evidence not the reverse

[frosty gate]

She is the ancient enemy of Void, she is at the top of the Pantheons, she is powered by an insane amount of followers thanks to her infections. If there was something above her, I'm pretty sure we would know.

[lethal burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-silksong-hollow-knight-silksong-silk-song-fleas-gif-3357646422480393120

[molten python]

I don't think she is an ancient enemy of the void.

[sinful nimbus]

Lord of Shades yes

[lone folio]

they arent the most trust worthy bunch when it comes to lore

[vestal swan]

Vessels*
She was put there
That's not telling us she rules all dreams
Her infection wasn't global

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance is literally ripped to pieces by another god she's obviously not the top dog

[frosty gate]

"...ANCIENT ENEMY...
...I DO NOT FEAR YOU...
...LET ME BE FREE...
...I WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN...
...DAWN WILL BREAK...
...THE LIGHT CANNOT BE CONSUMED..."

[sinful nimbus]

She's talking to The Knight

[vocal compass]

That is just what the goodseekers know of. They didn't fir exsample know of gms, so she wasn't there.

[lethal burrow]

the vessels are not ancient imo

[lone folio]

but she is talking about the void

[molten python]

Isn't that the Radiance calling the void her ancient enemy? I don't think the void has any enemies, what can the Radiance do to harm the void?

[sinful nimbus]

Why do you think so

[dusky bay]

Also can we just say
All endings in silksong are just so beautiful and cool
Like the bad ending feels so wrong but cool seeing your mask change
The Crest you had on breaking and a new one getting longer
And your silk bar increasing as gms screaming in agony and pain as she slowly dies under you then when she does die you become the next gms taking her place
While greyroot is you and gms getting infected together becoming a shell to the stupid gal in shellwood so she can grow and become a beast
And for the good ending even finding out how the knight grew and became the shade lord controlling all the other vessels and becoming their leader

[vocal compass]

How is this wrong?

[frosty gate]

The hell do you think the Knight is filled of?

[lethal burrow]

idk lol

[frosty gate]

Is literally the whole thing of Light vs Dark

[sinful nimbus]

Void but describing her as the "ancient enemy of the void" implies at the very least that she had any conflict with it in the past beyond the vessel project

[lone folio]

absolutely amazing question

[sinful nimbus]

Which is baseless

[dusky bay]

Was silksong worth the wait? Yes
Fucking yes >:3

[muted lantern]

But it seems like hornet knowing thk is just a popular headcanon because it's heavily implied hornet stayed in deepnest until the sealing.

[frosty gate]

Which could be the case, we just don't know

[vestal swan]

If she was the defacto dreamgod
Infection would be worldwide
She'd be more well known
Killing her would destroy dreams and memories???
Alot of other very obvious things would happen
Shes a local lightbulb

[sinful nimbus]

If there's no evidence for it there's not really any reason to consider it

[lone folio]

the death of a higher being doesnt make whatever they did just dissapear

[slim tree]

was it? We see in red memory she was a frequent enough visitor to the white palace to thepoint she had her own gown, made to resemble her pale heritage

[vestal swan]

Plenty of things from the kingdoms prime are considered ancient and they're older hornet too

[vestal swan]

Did you watch the ending

[dusky bay]

-# aaaand I got ignored yey-

[vestal swan]

Where the infection disappeared

[scenic tapir]

"kingdom of wishes granted" gives so much room for speculation. was it a unified nation of sorts??
ts pmo

[vestal swan]

You didn't really bring up a question or a topic you just said you liked the endings

[muted lantern]

But she was grown when she had that gown, it seems like she went to the hive after the sealing and then moved into the white palace when her training was complete.

[vocal compass]

The masks are called ancient. The void vorshippers are called that. The vessels are like thr newest part of hallownest history

[sinful nimbus]

I did not care for the endings. They insist upon themselves

[lethal burrow]

beans

[molten python]

All I'm saying is that she isn't some ancient enemy of the void.

[sinful nimbus]

Vessels are old Hallownest is an ancient ruin

[vestal swan]

You just made me remember a family Guy clip

[sinful nimbus]

beats remembering Silksong's endings

[vestal swan]

They are very much not new

[slim tree]

was she grown? Like obviously more than baby hornet but she seemed smaller there, and wouldnt the pale king had already left? No shade to ur theory but its just without a timeline it’s confusing

[lethal burrow]

Killing a God does not destroy what they are the god of.

After we end the nightmare heart ritual do nightmares stop happening to people only have nice dreams??

[sinful nimbus]

We never end the nightmare heart

[silk dirge]

you are going to be the radiance to my moth tribe

[lethal burrow]

OK like what

[silk dirge]

(you get forgotten)

[frosty gate]

Didn't we have a timeline? I remember we made a Timeline of Hk ages ago, but it seems like that didn't pass the years

[vestal swan]

The nightmare heart doesn't die it asks us to kill its vessels so it can tie itself to a new one

[slim tree]

werent the vessels made from the pale king once the radiance had started spreading her infection? Id say thats fairly new

[molten python]

We never ended the ritual. You can either complete the ritual or banish the Troupe from Hallownest.

[muted lantern]

I mean the red memory seemed to be in chronological order, she was small in deepnest, full grown in the hive, and still the same size in white palace

[silk dirge]

baby hornet

[slim tree]

Ah thats true, nevermind

[lethal burrow]

you're forgetting we can end the ritual though that's why I specified ending the ritual.

ya know, ending it, not continuing it on

[timber pond]

.....Like the very same void and acient civilization the pale king got the suggestion of "Shades" from?😂

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance has been imprisoned for "ages" and the infection has been around for "aeons" and Hallownest bugs are considered "ancient"

[silk dirge]

my favorite

[vestal swan]

The kingdom was started, the kingdom got infected, they sealed up the radiance, she got out and destroyed it and then fucked it up some more, each of these was full of several generations and ages. That is not new it is in the first quarter

[lone folio]

thats because shes the heart of the infection? if you destroy the source of something it will dissapear but like if we kill Unn greenpath isnt gonna magically dissapear. atleast i dont think that everything in greenpath is just gonna turn to dust immidiatly.

[lethal burrow]

that's not how I remember it being phrased but ig

[vocal compass]

Well the automobile isn't new. But it is not ancient.

[muted lantern]

I think there's room for hornet to have visited the white palace before the sealing, but the game doesn't really give any implication of that

[silk dirge]

i feel like it could be referring to the knight and the void both

[slim tree]

well yeah but new in the terms of the ancient kingdom

[lethal burrow]

Where are you getting these quotes from?

[vestal swan]

Newer compared to the region spanning Nation that fell before any of the known characters showed up is not a good comparison

[lone folio]

pharloom bay lore tablet

[sinful nimbus]

White Lady's dialogue, Ze'mer's dialogue about when her lover died, Iselda's description for the tram pin

[timber pond]

The convo with Ghille in silksong implies that if you destroy something holding up nature it will eventually all decay.

[sinful nimbus]

There's also Ellina saying the Kingdom fell generations ago

[silk dirge]

like she could be saying she doesnt fear the knight with the knight representing the void to her so she is not afraid or smth like that

[vestal swan]

If you kill Unn greenpath will die, she is still connected to it and supporting it with her abilities

[lethal burrow]

OK, could you get them?

[silk dirge]

like thats the way i interpret her dream nail dialog

[slim tree]

I Mean… nyleth is dead yet shellwood is still thriving very much so

[vocal compass]

What? I didn't find that. Is there like a breakable wall?

[lethal burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/may-i-see-it-chalmers-gif-18367950853266778478

[lone folio]

its near the zote cameo

[silk dirge]

she sees the knight and void as one so whatever she says can be directed at both

[vestal swan]

She didn't create them she was the first of a plant that spawned them, those are closer to children than creations

[timber pond]

It's in reference to Karmalita and far fields. In some cases I guess.

[slim tree]

i also just assumed them

[slim tree]

ah nevermind then

[vocal compass]

And I was out here wondering what more to do. How did i miss This?

[sinful nimbus]

Were the Vessel to break prematurely, that plague would unleash with rage and power built of ages chained.

That Che's love would know her partner's heart even aeon past.

Those trams sound like awfully advanced machines. Those ancient bugs must've been a clever lot.

[edgy barn]

Nyleth is actually probably not dead until Hornet takes her heart. Sister Splinter's needolin dialogue mentions an "other" that is "sleeping deep".

[sinful nimbus]

The first one in particular indicates Radiance herself believes she has been imprisoned for a long time

[frosty gate]

Well it seems like the Time Line got lost, that sad, I liked working on that

[sinful nimbus]

Which means her considering vessels ancient is plausible

[lone folio]

at this point i cant tell if you are joking or not...

[silk dirge]

shes impatient im pretty sure first sinner has been imprisoned for more

she should learn some patience

[sinful nimbus]

FS is dead 🥀

[silk dirge]

ok wait yeah apparently that is actually a memory

or smth like that

[vestal swan]

First sinner being a dream boss that actually died just does not make any sense and I'm choosing to believe she was alive out of pure spite

[silk dirge]

the arena changes

according to the wiki

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah it gets the appearance of the average memory

[slim tree]

Since when was first sinner dead am i crazy

[molten python]

Yes. And you can't die during the fight. When you lose, you wake up on the ground outside the arena.

[vocal compass]

I think that the more lore person meant ancient in a different way. It is understandable to not call everything ancient because there are big differences, which can't be represented with using ancient for everything.

[silk dirge]

the theory for that is fs is just testing you

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet describes FS as a husk too

[silk dirge]

so shes just laying you down outside

but it could also work for dreams

[vestal swan]

For some reason the game treats it like a dream, and it just doesn't make any sense especially with a whole mechanic being based around fighting people in their prime by entering their dreams with a specific spell

[sinful nimbus]

tbf HK had you enter a dream in abnormal circumstances too

[frosty gate]

People not weaver. We're talking about a Weaver you're trying to bind to

[vestal swan]

What

[lone folio]

true

[vestal swan]

That does not make a significant difference

[toxic mulch]

Which is kinda annoying cuz then you gotta run to the bench and back for tool reloads

[silk dirge]

why didnt the pale king just ask the weavers to make radiance go eepy eep was he stupid

[frosty gate]

Whatever dude

[edgy barn]

FS's needolin dialogue works the same as it does for Karmelita, Khann and the other memory bosses

[hazy iron]

there might not really be a lore reason to it outside of it being a hidden boss, and TC wanted to spare us the runback just this once

[vestal swan]

Did first sinner set a trap on her own body? Because nothing looks like it goes off with a magical flare

[vocal compass]

Does the nedolin transport you into memories by just, hearing about them? How does that work?

[timber pond]

The Seal on FS is likely a time Capsule. Like the Black egg is supposed to be

[vestal swan]

I don't remember any magic going off when you break the chains

[silk dirge]

(id imagine the weavers cant enter dreams)

[vestal swan]

It seemed like a purely physical person

[silk dirge]

wdym by that

[lone folio]

when you break the chains the seal of binding dissapears

[hazy iron]

theres def something there that looks the same as the chains in the black egg

[edgy barn]

The dialogue appears on screen automatically without the boss stopping to sing.

[vocal compass]

There where some white glowing runes on the chains.

[sinful nimbus]

Needolin is dream magic because of course it is

[silk dirge]

i see

[vestal swan]

Ok

[sinful nimbus]

Waiter more dreamslop please

[timber pond]

Seal of binding could bind them outside of time tbh we don't know.

[silk dirge]

so was the pale king just stupid then why didnt he just ask the weavers to make radiance go to sleep

[vestal swan]

So her prison is magic, that doesn't explain her randomly just being a dream

[sinful nimbus]

She can teleport or leave to another dream

[silk dirge]

(this is not intended to be serious)

[molten python]

It seems to me that the First Sinner is dead.

[vestal swan]

Yes he's stupid, but also I don't think you can put a dream creature to sleep

[edgy barn]

are you talking FS or Radiance?

[silk dirge]

teleport after them first sinner teleports a fuck ton sounds to me like a skill issue

[vestal swan]

FS

[timber pond]

It's memory not dreams. The needolin could always see the projection of a past memory through silk.

[sinful nimbus]

Memories are dreams

Dream is the catchall term for all the mind related stuff

[timber pond]

Not in this context

[vocal compass]

He has to much pride to accept or ask for their help probably. Or just saw it unlikely that they where to accept.

[vestal swan]

Most of the things tied to the mind are synonymous in this universe

[silk dirge]

the thing with memories is they dont have essence

so whats up with that

[vestal swan]

Yes they do that's how ghosts form

Hornet just can't see essence because she's not using an essence-based spell

[silk dirge]

oh that would make sense

[edgy barn]

There are multiple hints to Weavers having direct involvement with the vessel plan

[timber pond]

Memory= a thing that happened. Dream= a projection of things desired.
In the context of this universe

[vestal swan]

That's not accurate

[silk dirge]

pale stag exists

[vocal compass]

Which hints?

[silk dirge]

so memories are not actually accurate probably

[sinful nimbus]

No dreams are just what things made of essence are called

[frosty gate]

The Silk in Hidden Station

[sinful nimbus]

Memories are made of essence as Seer sees memories in the dream realm after we collect enough essence

[vocal compass]

Thanks.

[frosty gate]

It's currently theorized that they used Silk Runes to bind THK

[edgy barn]

A sketch of the seal of binding in the weaver's den + you can find silk spools in hidden station and the king's workshop,

[vestal swan]

The blueprint seal in weaverden
Silk at the palace
Weaver's being possibly older and way better at magic than everybody with some of them being theorized in game to have created certain kinds of magic first

[molten python]

The PoP one right?

[sinful nimbus]

🥀

[silk dirge]

how much essence do i need to collect to have a dream where i get estrogen

[timber pond]

Depends on the source. Green prince is unreliable. The other monuments implanted in the world are Moreso.

[silk dirge]

(i can literally get it irl but im stupid)

[edgy barn]

Yeah, they were even added in the same update.

[vestal swan]

How is the green Prince unreliable what

[silk dirge]

its likely green prince actually thought pale stag existed

[limpid summit]

Pale King likely used silk to make moulds and stuff we don’t know how big the role the weavers played was

[silk dirge]

and thus has memories around it

[timber pond]

He probably has a baised nostalgia for his home.

[limpid summit]

He could do his own thing

[vestal swan]

I feel like we should blacklist the word unreliable because nobody knows how to use it correctly

[timber pond]

His memory is not reliable

[frosty gate]

Not to big from what we know

[hazy iron]

was there not dialouge about them hunting it

[frosty gate]

Weavers don't like him

[vocal compass]

Source: one persons memory

[vestal swan]

The only part of his memory that has an issue is him not remembering his lover clearly

[silk dirge]

ventrica 1 is unreliable i dont want to ride it

[limpid summit]

Yeah and like the seal of binding entry is from PoP he could make seals

[hazy iron]

so use ventrica 2

[vocal compass]

Bro didn't reneber his lover or the capital. He is NOT reliable

[sinful nimbus]

No PK had no powers

[silk dirge]

ventrica 2 is too scary for me

[timber pond]

Pepole like to debate wether or not pale stag exists. I personally think it does but whatever.

[sinful nimbus]

Besides being able to mate with weavers of course. That's the real reason he's a higher being

[vestal swan]

I don't see any reason it wouldn't exist

[edgy barn]

But we also see a sketch of it in the weaver's den.

[limpid summit]

The weavers might in fact have been trying to make similar seals to his (perhaps he taught them how to make seals so they could go back and try and bind GMS?)

[silk dirge]

i believe pale stag is a creation myth

[limpid summit]

Crack theory

[silk dirge]

isnt it implied green prince isnt the one who killed pale stag if it existed

[limpid summit]

That’s why they returned

They wanted to bind her definitively

[silk dirge]

it was his ancestors that killed it and got a divine right to rule

[vestal swan]

That not only doesn't make sense with the timeline it doesn't make sense at all

[silk dirge]

or smth like that

[silk vector]

I wish there was more info on druids in hollow knight

[limpid summit]

She was asleep not bound

Weavers fled Pharloom to other lands

[dry bridge]

that is implied by the journal yeah

[frosty gate]

"Fabled first Cloverstag of Verdania's wilds. Commands the grass and leaves to aid its attack.
Myth made real in memory. The creature seemed completely at one with the flora around it. Did it ever truly exist as I have seen it?"

I mean i think whether it was real or not is irrelevant, but the vaguness is there

[limpid summit]

One land had another soul deity with the power to make seals

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think there's much of a distinction there

She's "bound in slumber"

[limpid summit]

Well she’s not literally sealed

[vestal swan]

[sinful nimbus]

"Myth made real" was it not real beforehand?

[molten python]

Didn't they escape Pharloom and go to Hallownest because their attempts failed and they knew they could not trap GMS permanently?

[vestal swan]

I think the vagueness on the pale stag is just hornet being in disbelief

[sinful nimbus]

Cindril weavers had nothing to do with trapping GMS

[vestal swan]

She's in somebody else's memory and it's a very strange creature

[silk dirge]

what even is it

its like a clover deer thingy

[vestal swan]

Some kind of deer thing that can control plants

[timber pond]

Anyway, dreams in hollow knight can amplify the "Image" of a person and twist it in werid ways, while "memory" is moreover something ingrained within the world itself and recreates actual events and locations.

[silk dirge]

deerbug

[frosty gate]

It was a mythical creature from Verdania that GP claimed he hunted with his lover when they were young

[molten python]

The fabled first Cloverstag.

[sinful nimbus]

Where are you getting this from

[vestal swan]

When do dreams twist somebody's image

[silk dirge]

gpz

[vestal swan]

This distinction and that event do not exist

GPZ is not a twisting it is a creation

[charred nimbus]

I would read this Shakespeare novel.

[vestal swan]

It's literally fan fiction come to life

[silk dirge]

true

[timber pond]

The way they get stronger and stronger. They twist thier own image.

[vestal swan]

What

[timber pond]

Like zote for example

[frosty gate]

You're missinterpreting GPZ

[silk dirge]

i think its possible they just killed a regular cloverstag or smth and claimed it as divine right

[limpid summit]

Well they left to other lands because the conductors were rallying against them and they wanted other bugs to shoulder the “burden” of the citadel so you’re not entirely wrong

[viral dock]

can someone give me a yes or no answer, did mother silk make the weavers? if no please dont say who

[silk dirge]

maybe cloverstags are hard to kill or smth idk

[limpid summit]

Would this not be interesting and create a compelling motivation for the Hallownest weavers lowkey

[frosty gate]

Or maybe they didn't even do it but he likes to remember he did. He's lowkey losing it at this point

[timber pond]

Yes

[charred nimbus]

That's the most possible to me, they killed a really powerful stag and remembered it like a "god"

[vestal swan]

Sort of, but I think you're still in the middle of the game so go keep playing you'll figure it out

[flint relic]

small question. Since second sentinel decides to view hornet as a friend, and they are hinted at being beyond an automaton by hornet in the journal, could they canonically be sentient?

[viral dock]

i see, ty

[vestal swan]

They would not be the first robot to be sapient, 12 also has thoughts outside of her programming right before she dies

[silk dirge]

yeah maybe they killed like an elder one

[vestal swan]

So does Zi

[silk dirge]

is zi a robot

[frosty gate]

Bots here seem to be sentient. Architect was sentient

[silk dirge]

the steel people dont give off robot vibes to me

[vestal swan]

Zi is made of steel and very robotic

How can you not look at that and see a robot what

[flint relic]

referring to this.

[silk dirge]

they dont seem like a regular robot tho

[vestal swan]

They don't have to be a regular robot to be a robot

[silk dirge]

like different from cogwork core

[timber pond]

I mean, Zi along with the cogwroks are all implied to have been made out of Souls lol

[silk dirge]

i dont see any gears

[viral dock]

is mother silk truly as strong as the radiance? both are supposed to be rocks but in the radiance fight she had her own realm and every attack was her own, but mother silk only used tools and dumb falling rocks (and was way easier, i only had trouble because i was cursed)

[silk dirge]

if i tried to make a robot without gears in frc itd be shit

[frosty gate]

We have no proof that steel people are actually robots

[vestal swan]

Guys the first game had a robot powered by Crystal
The second game had robots powered by clockwork gears
The steel people pretty obviously work a different way but are very clearly robots

[viral dock]

wait, first heratic and grand mother silk is just the middle!?!?! holy, how big is this game?!?

[timber pond]

They were "Grown" according to Zi out of ore.

[vestal swan]

Huge

[timber pond]

Ore which is the result of someone else getting compressed

[charred nimbus]

Keep doing side quests and playing the game, it's really big...

[vestal swan]

I think that's because their weird growing ore exists, that doesn't make them any less robotic. Also lace is made entirely of silk but she still has soul because that's what you need to create a life form, the cogwork monsters also have a soul fly in them

[flint relic]

oh my god I cant wait to do steel soul. how far into it do I meet this zi?

[viral dock]

gyad damn, team cherry snorted some of those sands of karak when making this game\

[frosty gate]

Blasted Steps

[silk dirge]

idk id want more steel city lore like i believe they could be steel constructs animated by magic but not necessarily mechanical

[vestal swan]

I think it's a living metal liquid Terminator situation

[timber pond]

She's in a secret silkeater room in blasted steeps

[silk dirge]

for me a robot needs to be mechanical and the steel people dont seem "mechanical" to me

[flint relic]

I died on bell beast last time 😰 (I've 100% silksong)

[edgy nebula]

zi doesnt state this completely, she just states that people not loyal to the masters get "compressed"

[vestal swan]

But they're still robotics, or homunculus like lace I guess

[silk dirge]

yeah thats possible

[edgy nebula]

jiji says she is built, i think

[flint relic]

yeah I do

[opal beacon]

Room before ( two buttons on the ceiling), sorry for being too late

[edgy nebula]

jinn i mean, i got their names mixed up

[silk dirge]

im a robotics kid so i know what robots look like

[charred nimbus]

All steel soul exclusive content are secrets

[timber pond]

Well, followed up by, "I experinced that"😂

[flint relic]

ah nvm then

[flint relic]

I figured

[vestal swan]

Into the compactor!

[lethal burrow]

built different 💅

[silk dirge]

yeah i feel like shes a sort of steel construct thats not mechanical

[opal beacon]

||Pharlid = not evolved Weaver||

[silk dirge]

the cogwork core dudes are very clearly mechanical

they run on gears and shit like that

[flint relic]

yessir

[shell vessel]

just found out mister mushroom is called THE herald

[frosty gate]

Jinn dialogue when speaking to her

"...Does It want to know of Jinn?...
Jinn, little know... cannot tell of self. Too young, its thought, its mind. Born to provide, to trade.
Will help, to trade, yes?... Bring Jinn gift. Wonderful gift."

"Born to provide"

[charred nimbus]

I mean, this steel guys look like a type or robot that would came from a Tony stark kinda of fiction tho...

[silk dirge]

that doesnt really mean a lot

[vestal swan]

He's called that in the first game too and by his trophy

[silk dirge]

many people in silksong are born into a specific role like s-WAWAWAWA

[opal beacon]

First sinner cutscene after her death confirms that

[edgy nebula]

death by wall-e

[vestal swan]

"the master herald"

[edgy nebula]

Wawawawawawawawa!

[flint relic]

we kinda knew that but thanks <3

[charred nimbus]

This turned itself into Rain world discord

[edgy nebula]

not rain world, squirrm

[shell vessel]

no, like in SS hornet says something along the lines "so the Herald is here", implying Herald is not actually a name and maybe like a species or something

[charred nimbus]

Oh, I didn't know the Squirms were a rain world Easter egg

[vestal swan]

No he's the herald

What

[stuck berry]

a title

why would it be a species

[vestal swan]

"The" does not imply more

[stuck berry]

"oh the king is here" does not imply every guy who looks like that is a king

[flint relic]

"complete the herald's wish" -passing of the age achievement description

[shell vessel]

wait it's a title?

I thought it was like a name

[stuck berry]

yeah??

his name is mister mushroom what

[opal beacon]

Yeah, I'm late

[charred nimbus]

Herald is a title

[spark valve]

we speak the path of the master herald yadda yadda

[lethal burrow]

the MASTER Herald

[vestal swan]

Even if it was a name assuming there's more because of it doesn't make sense

[muted lantern]

knowing ghost is the lord of shades, do you think they would have completely prevented any void exposure issues with hornet and lace? or would there still be lasting effects from their dunk in the void after the flower ran out

[silk dirge]

mr mushroom is one of a kind

[stuck berry]

the harold angel

[silk dirge]

hes also a meta character so i would not take him seriously

[vestal swan]

His dialogue in this game is way more serious

[opal beacon]

Sharpe is a hunter from a distant land. He’s tasked with eliminating Hornet and he’s not come alone. Sharpe brings companions on his deadly quest. Who are they? And why are they pursuing Hornet? We’ll leave you to guess at their full nature. Just know, Hornet’s gonna be fighting for her life against this highly trained trio.

Sharpe is a Kickstarter boss from Jaspal Boodram. Jaspal proposed an assassin bug with a whip-like nose and several other unique talents. And remember! All other backer bosses (and backer dungeons) will be landing alongside playable Hornet.
I WANT THEM, I WANT THEM, I WANT THEM

[silk dirge]

hes probably going to appear in fearless fox if that is actually a thing

[opal beacon]

Just a quick reminder

[silk dirge]

am i going insane for thinking he references celeste

[shell vessel]

So do yall think City of Steel (weaver location) has anything to do with Jinn & friends?

[frosty gate]

There doesn't seem to be lasting effects from swimming in void. At least for half pale beings like the girls

[opal beacon]

We haven't seen the third one

[frosty gate]

Absolutely

[muted lantern]

why do you say that? we only see hornet swimming unharmed in the void when she gets the flower

[vestal swan]

There's a city of steel in the game?

[timber pond]

Do you know about Zi and Sula?

[flint relic]

why the hell was the void aggroed against hornet before fighting lace, but the knight comes to save her later on? this wouldn't make sense if the knight unified the void. if the knight did so, the void would know about who hornet is, thus not being aggressive. can someone explain?

[stuck berry]

i don't know why it wouldn't

[stuck berry]

zi talks about it

[timber pond]

Cradle capture cage mentions it

[silk dirge]

this is so celeste coded

[stuck berry]

i've literally been saying this

[vestal swan]

One of them was holding a flower the other one had her mom right next to her trying to save her from it? There's not really a good example of somebody surviving this and they would definitely would not

[frosty gate]

The flower ran out while she was still deep into void

[flint relic]

I saw it in the cradle

[frosty gate]

Ghost got them out and they seem to be fine

[vestal swan]

No I mean I know that there's a city of steel but somebody said it was a weaver location

[stuck berry]

has anyone played and finished dead cells can they parse through these dialogues and see if there's a dead cells reference

[edgy nebula]

theyre referring to how a weaver was found in it, not insinuating that it was built by the weavers, i think

[vestal swan]

Ah

[muted lantern]

well it seems like void exposure takes a while to take effect, considering the tower of love guy died far away from the collector, im just curious if lace would still be somewhat affected by the void, like would they both be sick after

[timber pond]

Widows might have been captured in the city of steel

[vestal swan]

That would be a really lame reveal, if the city of steel is being run by another Weaver

[charred nimbus]

I mean, Dead cells doesn't take itself too seriously like Hollow knight and celeste

[stuck loom]

widow is full weaver

[silk dirge]

they were "staked to service" which sounds like they were working in its equivalent of the underworks

[flint relic]

@frosty gate @vestal swan @muted lantern might be interesting to you guys considering your discussion

[stuck berry]

dead cells had hollow knight crossover items so i wanna know if there's a mild connection there

[timber pond]

Not enough info to know really

[vestal swan]

TK did not universally take control of the void, they took control of the void around them, it gave them power over void but not all the void. It never did. It's like being given control over an element but you're not going to be able to create a tidal wave in Japan while you're sitting on your ass in Connecticut

[frosty gate]

ToL guy was a regular bug. Lace and Hornet are both half Pale Beings

[charred nimbus]

You mean in the specific dialogue that person sent or you want me to check the wiki?

[timber pond]

Staked to service, and widow having 2 giant inhibitor stakes on her back feels a little on the nose

[vestal swan]

Lace is not half a pale being

[muted lantern]

yeah, i don't think they would die from it, but they might still have lingering symptoms

[stuck loom]

Yes there is bruh

[silk vector]

Does Herrah seem smaller in Red Memory?

[stuck berry]

i wish we could've seen one of these notes for hornet, "weaver in half part last of their line staked for her silk, tracked and taken from the kingdom of hallownest, x choristors x envoys lost to the task"

[silk dirge]

thats what ive been saying

[stuck berry]

not you in particular but someone to check the dialogue yeah

[frosty gate]

The Void is a force that controls itself, I guess you power can be everywhere but you don't necessarilly need to know its there?
Things would be easier if I could make Cosmere references

[hazy iron]

there is

[timber pond]

Well her cage is destroyed lol

[flint relic]

that does make sense, but honestly there isn't a reason for the knight to be under pharloom unless its close to hallownest, the knight knew hornet was there and followed her, or just HAPPENED to be in the middle of nowhere.

[stuck loom]

Widow Needolin dialogue in the Cradle: "Of the first... the last..." (The first children = weavers, the last = to survive)

[stuck berry]

where

[vestal swan]

We did see that note, it wasn't finished as a report because she escaped at the entrance. Pick it up in that column near the bodies

[frosty gate]

Maybe, but we have yet to see what those symptoms would be

[timber pond]

Those are just instructions

[hazy iron]

its a bone scroll, cant remember where

[vestal swan]

Void was supposed to originally have this weird twisted space inside of it like portals, but how they actually got to this other region this fast we don't actually have a concrete answer for

But they are not nearby

[hazy iron]

its void, they could probably appear wherever they want inside it

[vestal swan]

Except no, because they didn't have control of that void

[silk dirge]

void ventrica system probably

[vestal swan]

They had to fight it

[flint relic]

you can find a bone scroll regarding that underneath where the cage fell in the intro. it doesn't specify that tho, as it is only an order to capture hornet and to bring support

[stuck berry]

can you send a screenshot or paraphrase it ii can't find it

[spark valve]

"Full Chamber to the kingdom of the White Wyrm. Claim the Weaver, in half part. Last of their line. Sensed strong with Silk.
Resistance anticipated. Quell with rune cage."

[vestal swan]

That

[frosty gate]

When the Knight realized Hornet was there it probably saved her

[vestal swan]

The report wasn't finished because they didn't make it back

[silk dirge]

im curious who makes rune cages

[hazy iron]

Close enough tbh

[stuck berry]

ah interesting

[flint relic]

seems like the knight senses disturbances in the void over wast distances!

[stuck berry]

"she's gonna kick our ass bring a magic cage"

[silk dirge]

like if i was hornet id go after whoever makes rune cages and make sure i bind them in the most painful way possible

[frosty gate]

It would make sense it did

[spark valve]

it is funny that that's the normal strategy anyways they just put a reminder there for no real reason

[stuck loom]

Weaver art implied to be created by the first sinner and then seemingly became a staple of weaver tech

[flint relic]

makes sense since the knight could've ended up in pharloom because of GMS' struggles against the void.

[vestal swan]

That wouldn't make sense because TK does not control that void

[flint relic]

if hornet diving into the void is like throwing a stone into a lake GMS is like the titanic

[vestal swan]

They literally had to fight it off to save hornet so why would they be feeling things through it

[frosty gate]

Maybe, or maybe it didn't and it just came at right moment

[hazy iron]

The knight might just not always actively be controlling the void though

[muted lantern]

probably black tears,

[vestal swan]

If that was the case they wouldn't have to fight it

[hazy iron]

It just does it’s own thing unless the knight says otherwise

[dusky bay]

Why does everyone call the green prince gay 0-0

[vestal swan]

Cuz he is

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah, that's a thing. It might not even happen to be honest. I doubt any of those two would be largely affect by the dive

[lone folio]

Because his lover was a guy

[spark valve]

because his lover is also a man

[charred nimbus]

He is tho

[flint relic]

ehhh maybe the knight has to "win over" the void in certain places. maybe it just hadn't unified it yet. still disproves the "sensing" thing tho

[dusky bay]

Where was that said-

[stuck berry]

team cherry gone team wokey

[spark valve]

everywhere

[vestal swan]

Again, they were both being protected

[dusky bay]

It's a joke isn't it 😭

[charred nimbus]

Almost everywhere in his quest line

[flint relic]

why so queerious

[lone folio]

When he refers to his lover he uses he/him pronounce

[dusky bay]

Am I blind-
Give me one line please

[frosty gate]

Again, the flower ran out

[stuck loom]

It's ambiguous, it's also implied that his lover is his twin brother. I think it's just weird bug relations that don't translate to humans very well but ofc everyone loves to rush to call him gau

[spark valve]

is there any text about the princes that doesn't state they're both men

[lone folio]

It's really not ambiguous

[vestal swan]

And lace isn't half pale she's a creation

[dusky bay]

Oh I thought that was him talking 3rd person for some reason

[spark valve]

no it's not ambiguous and no it's not implied that they're siblings

[lone folio]

It's blatantly obvious

[stuck berry]

@dusky bay

[charred nimbus]

Are people doing everything for silksong not have gay couples now?

[flint relic]

team cherry more like team.. woke

[lone folio]

This is the excact dialogue I have been thinking about

[spark valve]

claiming it's ambiguous about them being gay isn't even a media literacy moment it's just a literacy literacy moment

[stuck loom]

What's the "lovers born on the same beat mean"

[flint relic]

I wish there were more

[sinful nimbus]

"Born apart"

[muted lantern]

yeah green prince is undeniably gay. its like not even implied but straight up stated

[sinful nimbus]

They're soulmates

[dusky bay]

Oh
Also one last question what does the extra statues and flowers do in verdania-?
You need some to make her remember his home
But there are extra ones you can get
Wtf do they do

[stuck berry]

all i'm saying is this attack would be really weird if they were brothers

[olive umbra]

It’s so obvious 😭

[lone folio]

Excatly

[spark valve]

they aren't brothers

[vestal swan]

They're not brothers

[sinful nimbus]

They seem to be really good friends, that's all.

[muted lantern]

yeah the text doesn't imply they are related, it implies they were destined soulmates and rulers

[sinful nimbus]

Vro what

Anything but admitting two men embracing romantically is gay

[flint relic]

ehhh, I disagree. our norms don't translate into the game very well anyway so why would you expect the bugs to think brothers kissing are weird?

[dusky bay]

Helo

[lethal burrow]

OK, the trivia quiz is going to be starting in #sk-discussion in like a minute for anyone who's interested

[spark valve]

they are two male identifying bugs in love that's not weird bug behavior or whatever it's two sapient beings having affection for each other

[stuck loom]

E.g. all weavers are female. When he says "All bowed to we princes green" it feels like his entire race is male

[sinful nimbus]

What

[lone folio]

?????

[edgy nebula]

trivia question 1. who is the strongest npc? answer mottled skarr

[spark valve]

weavers are magical creatures elevated from lesser forms there's a reason why they're all female

[sinful nimbus]

That does not state anything about the gender of "All"

[silk dirge]

if his entire race is male how the fuck do half the bugs in verdania exist

[stuck berry]

wouldn't that be more support for them being gay if that were the case, which it isn't

[spark valve]

also yeah nothing indicates all verdanians are male just because two of them are

[stuck berry]

gerudo rules where they leave to mate

[sinful nimbus]

They're created in the same way little weavers were created

[flint relic]

irl some bugs have asexual reproduction as an option!

[vestal swan]

Not male ones iirc and this isn't irl

[stuck loom]

Like how all the flies in the slab come from the Brooding Mother or whatever her name is

just theorizing tho

[silk dirge]

what

[spark valve]

people will really say anything to get around acknowledging that there are just gay bugs

[sinful nimbus]

Brooding Mother is a girl

[silk dirge]

yeah

[lone folio]

"I have a theory, all ants are male because they come from ant queens"

[silk dirge]

like what do you get out of this

[sinful nimbus]

They aren't gay they are just two friends ruling together

[frosty gate]

Verdania Mpreg theory

[sinful nimbus]

I'd rule my kingdoms with the homies too

[silk dirge]

just accept theyre gay 😭

[vestal swan]

Seahorses would be on the other side of the region with the crabs

[silk dirge]

same(no one bc im aro)

[spark valve]

"Yeah they're two masculine identifying characters in a romantic relationship but that doesn't mean they're like gay or anything that could just be what their species has to do"???

[silk dirge]

biggest "yeah theyre just really good friends" moment

[frosty gate]

"Achilles and Patroclus were really just good friends"

"Brothers in arms"

[flint relic]

guys being gay is a good thing

[vestal swan]

The seats on that throne are not 5 ft apart

[lone folio]

We have no evidence of a "verdanian queen"

[hazy iron]

Not plot relevant

[stuck loom]

Yea unironically, that's what it seems like from the game, they all have seemingly very male designs except for karmelita

[hazy iron]

That proabably why

[sinful nimbus]

Green Prince attacks you and never bathed while in Sinner's Road so they all have to die 😔

[flint relic]

guys ping leth and we'll have an answer 🙏 I bet he'd be very pleased to hear such questions

[silk dirge]

average cs major

without the "they have to die" part

[edgy barn]

None of the skarr strike me as having an specifically male design, not even the one that is confirmed male (Gurr)

[sinful nimbus]

What is a male design

They're ants blud

[edgy barn]

yeah that'a the point

[silk dirge]

nah i dont like stereotypes but all of the ones about cs majors are 100% correct

[flint relic]

stop categorising everything that has a strong figure and a deep voice as male, they literally say "krrt!", they dont even talk. the ants could be of any gender

[spark valve]

mfw the bugs don't have human secondary sex characteristics (clearly they're all male)

[sinful nimbus]

They need eyelashes to be female

[silk dirge]

get an actually cool engineering major like robotics engineering

[vestal swan]

Seemed like there was a pretty even divide in the ants what are y'all smokin, and the queen is dying the kids are coming from somewhere

[flint relic]

as someone who studies programming, I disagree

[lone folio]

Skarrs are so wierd

[silk dirge]

you can do programming in other engineering majors

[flint relic]

[flint relic]

I live in sweden buddy

[silk dirge]

im talking about shit in america lol

[lone folio]

Hornet is a guy

[silk dirge]

maybe in sweden cs majors have bound the ancient and rare silk skill "showering"

they definitely havent here

[sinful nimbus]

If Hornet was a girl she'd have wavy horns and pronouns

[lone folio]

Excatly

[silk dirge]

blue horns and pronouns

[spark valve]

the waves are just microscopic

[sinful nimbus]

So she's a demigirl

[spark valve]

but also wavy horns as a paradigm for vessel stuff is derived from wl I can't believe you would forget something so important to the lore

[flint relic]

very much so.

[sinful nimbus]

GMS has wavy hair

[spark valve]

that is true

[lone folio]

I'm so done..

[flint relic]

"grandmother silk" SHUT UP SHUT UP ITS GRAND MOTHER!!!! AUUUGHHGGGG

[lone folio]

Grandma silk

[vestal swan]

Gmaw silk

[flint relic]

sorry I had to i just get reminded people call her that

[flint relic]

NO STOP

[lone folio]

Great mom thread

[silk dirge]

can i get whatever hair products shes using

[flint relic]

better

Great Fatther Song when

[lone folio]

Silk and some silk with a dash of silk

[silk dirge]

how the fuck do you wake up after sleeping for millenia and not have hair that looks absolutely terrible

[stuck loom]

she is literally hornets grandma tho

[silk dirge]

dlc boss

[vestal swan]

Not literally

She "created" weavers by mutating lower bugs

They're not related in the slightest

Lace and phantom are more accurately her daughters in a Geppetto and Pinocchio fashion

[stuck loom]

True true

[flint relic]

finally someone says this

hornet and lace are not related

[vestal swan]

But it's funnier if you say they are because that makes her hornets aunt

[stuck loom]

ok you seem very excited about that

[silk dirge]

that doesnt mean lacenet is good

[edgy barn]

Lace still a child so don't ship Lacenet kids

[flint relic]

let's not get into the details.

[toxic mulch]

Hornet and shakra better

[vestal swan]

Can y'all not be disgusting for 5 minutes

[stuck loom]

Theyre both 500 year old vampires to me

[vestal swan]

They aren't

One of them is perpetually a child

[flint relic]

seriously though, you could argue that's just hornet mocking her, but then again we cant be sure about that either

[vestal swan]

We can be sure she was magically created to be a child forever

The hunter journal confirms it

[flint relic]

thats nice

wasn't a fan of lacenet either way

[half shuttle]

when do fleas get gassed

[flint relic]

WHAT

[stuck loom]

Caretaker dialogue on Lace: One to keep far from, at least for us mortal sorts. Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most.

[half shuttle]

they deserve it for putting me through flea games

grubs never made me work for crap

[frosty gate]

The endless shipping wars. I like Lacenet anyway

[flint relic]

what..

[sudden vine]

what do yall think his purpose in the story is?

[frosty gate]

DLC Scapegoat

[sudden vine]

i personally think its here to burn threads from the haunting and protect bugs in the wisp thicket, which would also explain why it attacks hornet cuz of her silk

[silk dirge]

yeah

[flint relic]

was basically just worshipped by a small group

WAIT NO, THIS IS THE DAD OF THE LANTERN WE LIGHT IN HK

[frosty gate]

I mean that much makes sense, but like. Why the hell is it sentient.

[vestal swan]

Hk does not have wisps

It's because they are worshiping it

[silk dirge]

someone pointed out that the tool you get burns silk to use with might not just be a gameplay mechanic but an actual diegetic mechanic

[half shuttle]

he also shows that devotion is a strong power in the hk universe since its what gives most deities power and can create them as well??

[vestal swan]

They are trying to make it stronger

[flint relic]

that was a joke

[limpid summit]

Appearance of NMH in Pharloom led to the burning bugs worshipping a NMH like god of their own making

[sudden vine]

i dont think it is, i feel like its more like the fourth chorus

[limpid summit]

I made that up

[frosty gate]

It's a wooden effigy, FC was a bot

[flint relic]

grimm in pharloom when

[sudden vine]

i personally believe fourth chorus was sent to hunt the seamstress, and it activates and attacks hornet because it detects seamstress's sewing

[hazy iron]

its powered by a dead bug in the center right? it was made for some kind of burial/funeral ritual

[sudden vine]

thats not what i meant

[stuck loom]

Yea it's implied that all vegetation in the world is maintained or originated from high-adjacent beings, it might be their devotion to him that makes it so there's a forest right above Greymoor

[frosty gate]

What did you mean?

[sudden vine]

@frosty gate like fourth chorus, i think fotf detected hornets silk and attacked her, because its there to burn threads and protect from the haunting

[stuck loom]

but it's very odd tbh, no other mentions to it in the rest of the game at all, kind of shallow lore, i think Team Cherry was just itching to make a lil secret race of bugs with the Grimm Troupe motif

[flint relic]

guys!!!

place, pharloom:

place with bamboo, pharloom:

[sudden vine]

yeah, i hope we do get some more development on him

[frosty gate]

I mean, yeah, but what drives it to do so? What even is its magic? I know its fire but like we have no clue what the thing was

[silk dirge]

greymoor is deforested wisp thicket

[frosty gate]

I was about to say

[sudden vine]

no clue

[silk dirge]

thats the lore

[flint relic]

mossbag please save us

[vestal swan]

It was a wisp core whatever the hell that is with a body in the middle for a sacrifice, they were worshiping it as a god probably trying to make it stronger

And probably for the reason montraria stated TBH

[stuck loom]

Also i think it serves to further blur the line on what's a 'higher being' or not, it seems the community got rly obsessed with categorizing them from the first game, but this one brings more nuance to it

[vestal swan]

It doesn't blur the line of higher being because it did not reach that category

It's a ball of fire being worshiped full of unique creatures that are living balls of fire

Whatever the origin of these creatures it does not reach a state of unique unparalleled power

[frosty gate]

Wait isn't the Butterflies theorized or implied to be souls?

[quaint spear]

Aren't 'higher beings' just mostly Pale beings(which are rare as hell now) or some other rare shit like the Shade Lord

[vestal swan]

I don't think it stated but showing that they are using sacrifices in the big one means it might be a transformation spell

[quaint spear]

Nah they pretty much are lol

[vestal swan]

Higher being is the term for the proper deities

[quaint spear]

Fourth Chorus Needelin + Whiteward descriptions state this

[frosty gate]

Wouldn't that mean that Wisps are just those soul/butterflies but burning

[vestal swan]

White lady
Pale king
Radiance
Nightmare heart
TK after void heart
Grandmother silk
Nyleth
Unn
Mr mushroom
Whitestag maybe

[quaint spear]

Nah Wisps are different altogether for some reason

[stuck loom]

Ye I mean in the sense of an entity that makes other beings worship them and creates a little ecosystem for it (the thicket)

[vestal swan]

It didn't ask to be worshiped as far as we know they were just trying to raise it to that level

Which is just a theory

[quaint spear]

The White Lady is one!? The White Stag? NYLETH😭 isn't she just a strong grass lady

[vestal swan]

Nyleth was the origin of those plants and was said to have control of them when alive

[silver spire]

nyleth is the heart of shellwood creating all life in it

[vestal swan]

White stag is a maybe because we don't know enough

[quaint spear]

Oh. Wait isn't she dead

[silver spire]

palestag we dont know, its super weak for a higher being

[vestal swan]

Oh right Mr mushroom

[silver spire]

uhhh, i think shes become part of the forest

[sinful nimbus]

Remove Fraudmother Silk and you're golden

[silver spire]

like the forest itself

[quaint spear]

GMS is not a fraud wdym

[sinful nimbus]

Gets mid diffed by 4 bugs 🥀

[vestal swan]

Star is just shiting on the weak final boss

4?

[stuck loom]

Y Nyleth and not the other 2 guys

[sinful nimbus]

All 3 shamans and Hornet

[quaint spear]

Urm

[vestal swan]

Because of the feats they have are not unique or godlike

[silver spire]

khann is just a guy, karmelita is just a monarch

[stuck loom]

Ong she was the only boss i beat first try

[vestal swan]

Ahh lol

[silver spire]

they don't have any feats that indicate divinity

[frosty gate]

Now she is

[quaint spear]

You do know that she was forced asleep by most of the Weavers for a while and she just woke up😭

[silver spire]

bro died to moss mother

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah she also got neg diffed by her creations

[quaint spear]

WHAT

[sinful nimbus]

Absolute fraud

[stuck loom]

Why would the flower thing be it then

[frosty gate]

You took the heart

[quaint spear]

What are you on😭. The Weavers' plan was based on backstabbing her and they knew it would never last forever

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

[abstract rivet]

guys i have been living with this thought on my head for days now the next dlc with all the hunters march diff version and cut out coral area shows theyre working on a memory pharloom dlc i just cant prove it

[quaint spear]

I do not wanna pull the game info up, but GMS only found out about their betrayal because of the First Sinner

Also their plan clearly didn't work

[vestal swan]

"I don't want to pull up the evidence just trust me bro"

[quaint spear]

She still woke up

[sinful nimbus]

The plan didn't work because the weavers died not because their plan was faulty

[quaint spear]

Most of them run away nah😭

[sinful nimbus]

Also getting sealed for eons by your own creations is still mega embarrassing

[quaint spear]

Eh fair

[silver spire]

because nyleth was the heart that sprang the woods, literally springing life across the entire region. she created the races that dwelled within, so obviously that would indicate some form of divinity or higher power

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

[quaint spear]

Da Weavers we see in Hornet's memories

[frosty gate]

I'm calling those types "Rulers" for lack of a better word

[stuck loom]

It's implied Karmelita did the same for the Far fields and ant race tho?

[silver spire]

the only other beings that have been able to create races of bugs were unn the greenmother, the radiance, and maybe gms but she just took existing species and made them op

[vestal swan]

Getting the RKO to life support just by being forgotten though...

[quaint spear]

Most of them either run away or got offed

[silver spire]

karmelita seems more like an extremely powerful skarr that united the various tribes in the far fields and hunter's march

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance retaliated and became stronger than ever

[quaint spear]

Karmelita is a queen

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really remember anything about the Citadel weavers running away can you elaborate

[quaint spear]

She's not even a higher being but through her song avoided so much shit

[frosty gate]

Rad made the Moth Tribe but it's not specified she made the Moths themselves

[silver spire]

she didn't create the skarr

[stuck loom]

Gilly says something like "There seems to be a special melody to this place that eludes the dry marrows besides and gray moors above"

[frosty gate]

Unn did make the Mosskin

[vestal swan]

We don't know that she actually got stronger, she did come up with the new thing though

[sinful nimbus]

She's stronger in the sense that she has more influence

[stuck loom]

So it seems she created the vegetation that lets Far Fields exist

[silver spire]

yes, because karmelita sang a song that defied the haunting and allowed the skarr to resist GMS

[vestal swan]

I guess but at the same time we don't know what her original sway was

[sinful nimbus]

It was just the moths

[stuck loom]

it sounds like he refers to the literal physical biomes too

[sinful nimbus]

I think it goes without saying the previous moth population wasn't as big as the entire modern regions population

[abstract rivet]

GMS actually created moths frfr

[vestal swan]

Who created that vegetation?

[silver spire]

but being able to sing song that resists GMS isn't a higher being trait, as weavers as well as bugs of the citadel were also able to

[frosty gate]

Also, a thing that ties PK and GMS as Pale Beings is the abilty to "Enhance" a bug i guess?

[vestal swan]

I don't know the difference between actually being worshiped and having your mind planted into a bunch of zombies might be different

[abstract rivet]

How does the song keep gms asleep

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah the difference is that the zombies can't say no

[vestal swan]

Because they came up with song magic

[quaint spear]

Sing along magic

[abstract rivet]

whats song magic gng

[vestal swan]

It's magic where you use songs as a medium

[stuck loom]

Also it's odd how the Sands of Karak reason dried out... i feel like it'd make sense that Khann was the source of it somehow

[quaint spear]

It wasn't gonna work forever but it worked decently enough and that's still impressive

[abstract rivet]

i 100%ed yet have so much to learn abt lore

[silver spire]

no, it was just the result of the citadel lmao

[vestal swan]

They probably diverted the water for the factories

[frosty gate]

Same with Khann

[abstract rivet]

Citadel took coral forest from us, let that sink in

[stuck loom]

Elab on how they supposedly made an ocean vanish

[silver spire]

khann was not the source of all water 🙄

[stuck loom]

That's speculation tho

[vestal swan]

You didn't explain this either who?

[vestal swan]

It's a better idea than self-sabotage

[abstract rivet]

citadel fucked Bilewater, Coral Forest, Pilgrims like can it get any fucking worse

[silk dirge]

this is confirmed in game tho

[quaint spear]

(albeit, it may be because the weavers ran/left or DIED and the peeps left now didn't have that much stuff to sing)

[vestal swan]

Nobody has answered the who part of my question yet

[quaint spear]

Wdym😭

[stuck loom]

Gilly dialogue: These fields still display life and growth, even as the lands around erode to dust.
There is a hot harmony here that eludes the grey wastes above and the dry Marrow beside.

[silk dirge]

karmelita

[agile coral]

bilewater being so nasty and disgusting is the result of the citadel

[quaint spear]

Are you saying they threw all of their trash there

[vestal swan]

Okay so maybe the ants farmed, she is not a plant controlling higher being

[abstract rivet]

threw waste at bilewater to make it complete shit, dried sands of karak, enslaved pilgrims to work like machines in underworks

[frosty gate]

Don't forget they deforested Greymoor!

[quaint spear]

I mean, this was all the Weavers' plan to make GMS eepy

[vestal swan]

Gilly saying wow the ants took care of this area is not saying wow that one ant lady exerted her magic powers over it

They successfully hid an entire region

[abstract rivet]

wha??

[quaint spear]

It still sucks but it was necessary I guess? Except drying the sands and throwing shit to Bilewater

[stuck loom]

Bro you cannot create greenery out of nowhere

[agile coral]

cant remember the exact line but if im remembering correctly (which i very well could not be) it was as punishment for the original people there for not bending to the citadel, so they just flooded tf out of it with waste

[quaint spear]

That is crazy

[vestal swan]

It wasn't created from nothing and do you know how planting seeds works

[edgy barn]

Greymoor (and Sinner's Road) used to be farmlands actually.

[abstract rivet]

Pharloom is basically totalitarian dictatorship

[vestal swan]

"still display life and growth" this is not saying she brought or created anything this is saying she preserved it

It's a greenhouse

[silver spire]

let's see, the great ocean dried in the sands of karak could be a result of continuous interference in the natural order by the citadel, caused by usage in the blasted steps. the countless pilgrims passing through, construction that might necessitate water and could have drained the ocean over time, as well as the citadel already shown being able to destroy entire environments as evidenced by verdania, its pretty clear that the disappearance of the great river is a result of the citadel's workings

[stuck loom]

Other Gilly line: Was it her? Could it be? The strength that sustained these caves?

[quaint spear]

Tbh that dictatorship is based on keeping GMS asleep but now she's woke up

[nova yarrow]

so we know from lumble that a beat is 4, but how much is a measure

[frosty gate]

The Wisp Thicket, which is right above Greymoor, is all bamboo. Greymoor structures seem to be made out of Bamboo. So it looks like they deforested the whole place

[silver spire]

so we're equating character speculation to fact, when gilly doesn't even know everything.

[stuck loom]

Yes this is how lore in this franchise works, all we know for most important things are a line or two from NPC dialogue

[silk dirge]

i mean hornet says far fields will fade away and it will be up to people like gilly to replant it

[quaint spear]

Gilly is an okie dokie sourced though just not that much

[quaint spear]

Btw can we consider that parasite in the secret ending a higher being too

[stuck loom]

Yea ro my point, it will fade away because she killed Karmelita (the source sustaining it all)

[quaint spear]

Literally just hecking took over us and GMS

Although it was because we defeated GMS soo

[frosty gate]

Yeah I agree with this, Karmelita probably had an influence over the fields and now that she's gone everything is gonna die.

And be regrown

[edgy barn]

As I said before Greymoor and Sinner's Road used to be farmlands according to the NPC you get the steel pines from. So the particular crime here is not deforestation.

[silver spire]

yes, but gilly is specifically a character shown to be documenting, not knowing it all from the start nor knowing everything in the end

i'd be hesitant to trust a character who is canonically learning about the world like a child alongside us

[edgy barn]

Hornet agrees with Gilly here.

[vestal swan]

It doesn't have to be a supernatural control over the area though

[silver spire]

also, in the remains of verdania, the death of the green prince has sprouted up clovers and other greenery, indicating regrowth of the land of verdania

[vestal swan]

The area was preserved simply by being closed off and now it's open and the leader is dead

[silver spire]

based on this and your logic, the clover dancers must be higher beings, correct?

[frosty gate]

Verdania also lost its green after it lost its Rulers.
It's also getting it's green back now that their rulers are back even if dead

[stuck loom]

If the devs went out of the way to make a NPC dedicated solely to put these lines into the game it must be something tbh

[quaint spear]

How are they back😭 they're both a memory