sk-lore

[quick thorn]

practically

[mortal birch]

but it could also just be the father of craws instead of Godfather

[tiny socket]

Craul Goodman

[fathom hill]

i wonder if hornet also felt tempted to do so

[tiny socket]

I need that picture of hornet hugging the big flea but with the fayforn instead

[quick thorn]

definitely lean more towards being "larger normal bug" like with the green princes. Not a progenitor, just the one who rose to the top

[wispy urchin]

dude im excited for a third hk game

[dapper willow]

What is 7 more years

[tiny socket]

It’s been like a month, what kind of attention span is this

[rose forge]

i can always start again

[dapper willow]

Someone needs to mpd omniman into ss now

[graceful grail]

I bet we will see the Wyrm side of hornet in a DLC, Marc My Words!!

Everyone wants hornet to excersise her Weaver side. I wanna see more Wyrm

[toxic mulch]

"I can always make another"

[rose forge]

we kinda already do, hornet has explained in a conversation with the care taker where she still wants to defeat and bind gms (which is her pale being/wyrm side of her wanting the power) but she also wants to save the kingdom (which is the caring soo good nicey nice weaver side of her)

[graceful grail]

Yeah, but if she does the former it seems like her weaver side is the one leaned towards

[dapper willow]

Me too

[graceful grail]

(Just from the ending)

[dapper willow]

I dont think the weaver side is nice
The nice part is all hornet

[graceful grail]

Weavers to young hornet -

“Prove to us that you are more Weaver Than Wyrm”

What was the point of getting jiggy with pk unless herra did that by herself

[dapper willow]

Herrah tells her right after to dont listen to anyonr but follow her own path

[rose forge]

zote would be proud

[graceful grail]

Herra good mommy

[last sundial]

What if Herrah's appearance not matching those of other Weavers is from her binding something from deepnest

[viscid ridge]

I think Herrah's origins are just from a different ascended bug. Im pretty sure not all weavers were evolved from pharlids, maybe some others were evolved from other types of spiders

[obsidian quail]

all headcanon is possible since she wasn’t a weaver in HK

people are thinking about it more than TC ever did

so go with whatever idea you find cool

[maiden meteor]

FS kinda suggest that Weavers went through few design iterations

since her mask is incomplete and jagged

[obsidian quail]

yeah all weavers have slight variations but look at Herrah

[viscid ridge]

Like we get some evidence that other bugs were used to make weavers in the art files that was not used, but im not taking it as full fact until its actually in the game

[obsidian quail]

when was the last time you played hollow knight?

i just played it again and there is specifically a Beast’s den and a Weavers den and Herrah is literally in the former hahaha

i completely forgot about

[viscid ridge]

She definitely was a weaver in HK, all the weavers in the den talked about her, aswell as Hornet being able to make silk in the first game

[obsidian quail]

she was not a Weaver she was explicitly a Beast

of course they talked about her she was queen of deepnest

[viscid ridge]

Bruh

[maiden meteor]

Hornet kinda talks about her beastly nature iirc

[obsidian quail]

u can say bruh all u like that doesn’t change anything

[maiden meteor]

so they’re not mutually exclusive

[obsidian quail]

Herrah is literally in the Beast den and the Weavers had their own shite

there was a distinction

[viscid ridge]

Thats a complete false equivalency

[wooden sphinx]

hornet cage description tells us Hornet is 50% weaver and 50% wyrm unlike other captured by citadel who were 1/8 weaver 1/4 etc this literally confirms us Herrah is 100% weaver

[obsidian quail]

yeah it’s a retcon

[wooden sphinx]

oh here we go

[obsidian quail]

u don’t know what false equivalency means if u use it like that

by all means believe herrah was always a weaver i don’t really care

[past cypress]

Do you really think Lurien's species is Watcher and Monomon's is Teacher?

[obsidian quail]

what

[past cypress]

"Pale King wasn't a wyrm, he's literally a king!"

[viscid ridge]

Beast is a title

[past cypress]

"the Beast" isn't her species it's a title

[obsidian quail]

there are the beasts of deepnest

there are the Weavers who are immigrants

[viscid ridge]

A choral commandment that says Hornet is weaver in Half part

[obsidian quail]

the Weavers had their own den to themselves

[robust wagon]

It's said that Hornet is half weaver, and PK definitely isn't a weaver

[obsidian quail]

the Beast den had their own den

Herrah is in the Beast’s den

[past cypress]

It was "The Beast's Den" not "The Beasts' Den"

[obsidian quail]

i just played it

[lethal burrow]

eghhh

[past cypress]

Do you know the diff?

[maiden meteor]

bruh I can’t search dialogues cause my google doc crashes upon entering something in search tab

[obsidian quail]

uh huh

[steep talon]

funky

[viscid ridge]

But Herrah always had more connections with the weavers than she did with the beasts. From the Mushroom lore tablet it sounded like she became the queen of the King of the beasts, not that she was a beast herself

[steep talon]

i wonder if their weird spikes on hips and shoulders also relates to their head shape

[obsidian quail]

it said she was a common beast

[kind dawn]

https://tenor.com/view/me-atrapaste-es-cine-its-cinema-cinema-esto-es-cine-gif-17729711691959966457

[lethal burrow]

strawman

[viscid ridge]

We do see in the art files that the Pharlid divers were also pre evolved weavers, but its not fully in the game so its not complete fact

[obsidian quail]

hahaha that’s why i’m not bothering

[lethal burrow]

yes harrah was made a weaver in silksong

[past cypress]

How is this a strawman?

[viscid ridge]

Everyone is intitled to their wrong opinions

[lethal burrow]

indeed

[past cypress]

What makes you think Herrah's species is "Beast" when the other two Dreamers explicitly have titles? What makes you think the BEAST'S den is referring to a species when it is SINGULAR

[obsidian quail]

Herrah was explicitly called a common beast

[obsidian quail]

uh huh

[kind dawn]

https://tenor.com/view/tv-bfb-bfb-bfdi-epic-gif-5245709354300331119

[trim lark]

a common bug
not beast

[lethal burrow]

i don't think she was a "beast" but i sure as hell don't think she was a weaver when they made hollow knight

[obsidian quail]

no she was called a common beast

i just played it

[viscid ridge]

We also have GMS always referred to as a beast throughout silksong

[past cypress]

Why would the queen of weavers not be a weaver?

[trim lark]

damn do i have dementia

[obsidian quail]

because weavers are immigrants there were already beasts there

they joined later did u see SS plot

[viscid ridge]

Cause 1+1=3 i guess

[lethal burrow]

she is the queen of DEEPNEST not the "Weavers"

The only Weavers she's the queen of are the specific ones in deepnest

[past cypress]

And they just willingly decided to keep Herrah as their queen? Over presumably centuries?

[obsidian quail]

they went all over the place and some went to deepnest

[trim lark]

ive heard the theory that herrahs body is like that because they were fattenning up for hibernation as the dreamer

[obsidian quail]

Herrah wasn’t the first queen and she was a common beast

[lethal burrow]

why could that cause horns though

[obsidian quail]

the king was of high caste

[trim lark]

yummy horn food idk lmao

[lethal burrow]

A common beast by the reckoning of hallownest and the deepnest folk anyhow

[obsidian quail]

so yeah if immigrants want to immigrate they have to respect the natives

[stuck berry]

maybe weaver bodies change as a result of giving birth, happens in real life and makes sense given weavers usually don't give birth

[viscid ridge]

Nah, thats cap. Im still pretty sure thats just what she looks like

[lethal burrow]

this is my current idea

[maiden meteor]

Maybe she changed mask or smth

[lethal burrow]

how is that related?

[maiden meteor]

Dreamers seem to have unified mask design for whatever reason

[viscid ridge]

I doubt it

[trim lark]

but do youve got any evidence that its cap

[stuck berry]

have you seen any other weavers with children

[maiden meteor]

I mean horns could just be part of mask

[viscid ridge]

Probably part of the spell

[trim lark]

i dont mean this aggressively i wanna know if the theorys wrong

[wooden sphinx]

First pic are cages descriptions in the cradle, second pic is Hornet cage description (in form of choral commandent) Citdel also tracked weavers ancestry and it is confirmation that Herrah is 100% weaver

[lethal burrow]

harrahs horns are beneath the cloth that is behind the mask so i don't think so

[viscid ridge]

Do you have any evidence that it isn't?

[obsidian quail]

yeah Beast to Weaver retcon it’s pretty simple

[lethal burrow]

nobody is saying harrah isn't a weaver in current canon.

[trim lark]

we can go in circles i just wanna know if the theorys wrong 💔

[unreal kindle]

fighting watcher knights like

[maiden meteor]

Watcher Knights but each knight is Savage Beastfly

[trim lark]

ill kill you

[wooden sphinx]

okey and ? The person was asking where is this information and gave awnser

[trim lark]

specifcally you

[lethal burrow]

go, my images

[unreal kindle]

watcher knights pissed me off tbh

anyway gtg

cya

[viscid ridge]

I associate that dialogue with the mushrooms not knowing how powerful the weavers actually are. Only the Pale beings in hallownest seemed to actually know their real worth, while the rest of the kingdom thought they were mindless beasts

[zinc nova]

is hornet a higher being?

[maiden meteor]

I recall seeing clean sprite from Silksong and it kinda made more sense with original design

[lethal burrow]

She seems to think so

[maiden meteor]

only a bit

[obsidian quail]

by all means believe that if u want

[past cypress]

Probably

[wooden sphinx]

probally more like demi god

[maiden meteor]

She’s strong enough to bind GMS but probably can’t give bugs mind or anything

[obsidian quail]

hornet isn’t a higher being until she binds GMS

she just has potential

[viscid ridge]

Ydy

[maiden meteor]

she scales below Zote alas

[lethal burrow]

whether she is or isn't a higher being, she certainly considers herself one at the bare minimum

mask maker: "it is a rare want of your caste to serve us mortal bugs."
Hornet: "I am not my kin, Maker. I have seen enough pain born of their dominion."

hornet speaking to green prince: "You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."

[past cypress]

Same mask, same leg number, similar face "cloth"...

[stuck berry]

no it's a uniquely herrah thing

[viscid ridge]

In Half part, not as powerful as the Knight or THK, who are fully

[obsidian quail]

i think she’s always pale but not higher yet, i thought she was referring to the paleness

[maiden meteor]

She probably refers to part of her bloodline and not whole herself

[past cypress]

Herrah is a "common beast" because she's not royalty. It's not a matter of species. Why should Hallownest care that she's a weaver? "Common beast" here clashes with "once of honoured caste".

[lethal burrow]

Speak plainly

[past cypress]

She's a Weaver and always has been

[obsidian quail]

the native creatures are referred to as Beasts, the Weavers are not because they’re immigrants from pharloom

[past cypress]

When are they referred to as beasts?

[maiden meteor]

I still wonder what would be implications around Wyrm Crest

[viscid ridge]

By the Mantisis and the mushrooms

[lethal burrow]

that's not what you said stop being snarky

[maiden meteor]

Hornet awakening her PK bloodline?

[stuck berry]

to my understanding hornet is pale being on her father's side, pale beings have a natural instinct to be revered as gods and seek worshippers. when she kills GMS her pale instinct takes over and she takes her place as pharloom's queen

[past cypress]

Yes it is

[lethal burrow]

"my kind" "my kin" I don't know how to read those as referring to the bloodline only

[past cypress]

Does it refer to only the natives as beasts or just Deepnest in general?

[maiden meteor]

She’s also a bit pale on weavers side

[lethal burrow]

Did Tim Cherry tell you that?

[stuck berry]

this is clearly saying "this animal isn't like the other feral ones."

[maiden meteor]

Since Weavers straight up possess sliver of GMS’ power

[viscid ridge]

Not really theres nothing to awaken, shes already a higher being, but the Weaver Queen ending she binds GMSs power, which have nothing to do with her Wyrm side

[stuck berry]

weavers den for the weavers, beast's den is for herrah the beast specifically

[past cypress]

No, I deduced it from all the hints the game gives.

[viscid ridge]

They are both referred to as beasts

[stuck berry]

yeah but they don't mean to say all spiders are beasts they mean the typical definition of beast

[past cypress]

"That's not what you said" yes it is I literally pointed out all the similarities. Just because Herrah is bulky and has horns doesn't make her any less of a Weaver

[lethal burrow]

"all the hints"

[maiden meteor]

Honestly at this point can we postpone Herrah the Weaver conversations until TC do Question session on reddit or something

[past cypress]

I apologise that your only sense of the lore are mossbag's videos, I can request one about Herrah being a weaver if that'll convince you

[lethal burrow]

If we accept that 2 bugs that look nothing alike can be the same type than anything can be anything.

sly can be a mantis
sherma can be a moth
cloth can be a craw

[past cypress]

There's literally zero argument for her not being a weaver aside from looking different

[stuck berry]

we got silksong lore elitists in chat lmao

[zinc nova]

isnt herra a weaver?

[obsidian quail]

uh huh

[maiden meteor]

She is certainly one as of Silksong

before is dubious and people cant stop arguing over it

[obsidian quail]

right

[lethal burrow]

ah, so you've come to the point where with nothing left you resort to insults.

well at least I know you've got nothing left now and you're at the bottom of the barrel

[tiny socket]

Consider that the spiders uplifted into weavers might look different in different places

[obsidian quail]

what different places

[viscid ridge]

Yeah she is, she just looks very weird

[tiny socket]

Hallownest is slightly far from pharloom

[wooden sphinx]

maybe Herrah looks diffrent due to her giving birth
you know some bugs bodies change heavly after it in nature and in Silksong we know weavers have problem with birthing

[maiden meteor]

So anyway are we gonna ignore freakin huge snail shaman in Chapel

[zinc nova]

and if herrah wasn't a weaver then hornet wouldn't be either

[maiden meteor]

that dude must’ve had shitload of soul

[obsidian quail]

Weavers weren’t uplifted anywhere but Pharloom

[past cypress]

Except those have no hints at being any other species, while Herrah is literally queen of Deepnest.

"Once of honoured caste" -> marries a "common beast" clearly because he needed a union with the Weavers and had to take one of them

[lethal burrow]

nobody is arguing harrah is not a weaver.

It's only being said that she was almost certainly not originally intended to be one.

[obsidian quail]

herrah wasn’t a weaver until silksong and hornet is now half weaver but it’s fine

[tiny socket]

Is hornet half bee

[past cypress]

You mean Hallownest?

[lethal burrow]

you're suggesting that the king of deep nest was the common beast and that harrah is the higher cast?

[maiden meteor]

I wonder if Shaman’s size correlates to amount of Soul they hoard

[obsidian quail]

what spiders do we find in pharloom

[past cypress]

No, I'm suggesting the king was honoured caste and had to marry a weaver for the immigrants to not stage a coup

[maiden meteor]

like Bell Hermit is said to have more soul than others and he’s pretty beefy

[obsidian quail]

did u all read the journal that said Hornet sees how similar she is to Pharlids?

[viscid ridge]

Yall must have been huffing something if yall though Hornet wasn't related to the weavers

[lethal burrow]

that's fan fiction

[obsidian quail]

it’s implying she has relation to them so no herrah was probably from a pharlid

[tiny socket]

If hornet is a weaver, why is she called hornet and not spider?

[maiden meteor]

Vespa seized the opportunity to name her

[obsidian quail]

we lost the plot

[lethal burrow]

harrah bring queen of deepnest does not suggest she is a Weaver.

[wooden sphinx]

probally Vespa named her

[past cypress]

Almost like weavers were risen from them 🤔

[maiden meteor]

I wonder what White Lady’s name for Hornet would be

[lethal burrow]

it's ok we'll just replace it with another one :)

[past cypress]

I'm sure the weavers willingly subjugated themselves to another leader after being abused by their previous

[obsidian quail]

yeah so the idea that Herrah came from something other than pharlid is wrong

[tiny socket]

Child number 104008

[stuck berry]

nectarsweet

[viscid ridge]

Spiders child i guess

[humble iron]

Gendered child

[past cypress]

She came from weavers which came from pharlids, what is your point?

[obsidian quail]

the Weavers were highly respected and had a lot of freedom to express themselves

[viscid ridge]

How so?

[obsidian quail]

because weavers are ascended pharlids

[past cypress]

It's deduction of lore, like 90% of what we know?

[lethal burrow]

I don't think there were subjugated in the first place, they just fled a place and then lived there under the reign of the person who ruled.

why would they move somewhere only to get mad about living there and having to obey the laws.

(also can you tell me exactly what grandmother said actually did that was abusive?)

[tiny socket]

It’s visible that first sinner comes from a pharlid, but who’s to say other species couldn’t be ascended, which is why herrah looks different

[lethal burrow]

I disagree

[obsidian quail]

that wasn’t deduction that was imagination

[obsidian quail]

there are only pharlids in pharloom

and Hornet specifically says she shares nature with pharlids

[tiny socket]

There are clearly other bugs present in pharloom

[humble iron]

There are a ton of bugs, not to mention a ton of extinct ones

[maiden meteor]

At this point only TC might know answer to whatever is going on with Herrah

[viscid ridge]

Yeah most of what you said has no basis thats all im saying

[wooden sphinx]

or give awnser in DLC

[obsidian quail]

yeah pharlids are the only spiders

[past cypress]

We know a member of the higher caste married a common bug for whatever reason, we know Herrah has no hints at being royalty, we know Weavers came to Deepnest and were happy to stay there...

[obsidian quail]

Hornet says she shares nature with pharlids

[lethal burrow]

i'm fine with birth hypothesis for now

[lethal burrow]

yes....?

...and?

[viscid ridge]

I highly doubt that, but we'll see if it gets clarified in the future

[lethal burrow]

uhh

[obsidian quail]

idk why it’s so hard to admit that TC simply changed their mind about Herrah and decided to make her a weaver, it works better for the story for Hornet to be half weaver

[tiny socket]

That is entirely unconclusive evidence that herrah was definitely an ascended pharlid

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think TC will really answer that unless they do some Q&A

[humble iron]

that's a backer OC lol

[viscid ridge]

And also the little steelhearts servants also all seem to be spiders

[tiny socket]

Because it’s helpful to have a cohesive storyline to build lore theories from

[past cypress]

"She called us daughter, she called us divine, she lied"

"Destruction or devotion, those are the only things my kind knows"

"Escape her silken sight"

Does the game have to explicitly tell you that GMS was evil? Does it have to give you her criminal history?

[obsidian quail]

why would Hornet say she shares nature with pharlids and only pharlids

[obsidian quail]

well then you’ll have to tell TC not to retcon

[lethal burrow]

so?
khann was also one.

don't make em any less canon

[maiden meteor]

tbf Weavers aren’t the most reliable of narrators imo

[humble iron]

I mean GMS is evil for how she reacts once First Sinner spreads the truth

[lethal burrow]

sir I asked what she actually did and you did not tell me

[viscid ridge]

All well and good, but the second line refers to higher beings, not to weavers

[maiden meteor]

They DID create whole Citadel system

so they aren’t free of sin

[humble iron]

Oh yeah weavers are terrible as well

[tiny socket]

Considering herrah was likely ascended a bajillion years ago, perhaps hornet shares nature with all spider like creatures, who aren’t present in the game timeline

[lethal burrow]

omg they tried to sneak that one in there I didn't even notice how wicked

[obsidian quail]

pretty sure not all of them

[narrow glacier]

Of which Grand Mother Silk is

[past cypress]

We don't know what she did, we only know it was bad.

We do know that she threw workers into the Underworks so she's clearly not the shining example of morality

[humble iron]

Everyone is horrible, from GMS to the weavers to the citadel upper caste

[tiny socket]

How sure

[maiden meteor]

except Sherma

[past cypress]

Is GMS not a higher being?

[humble iron]

Erm the underworks thing is actually a weaver idea

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i take that back, its appropriate for the argument they are making

[narrow glacier]

Horrible GMS made Horrible Weavers who made Horrible Citadel Caste system

[obsidian quail]

i’m talking about the weavers establishing the citadel

[tiny socket]

Mb

[maiden meteor]

Conclusion: Higher Beings’ tribes are ass

[obsidian quail]

the Weavers in deepnest were fine

[humble iron]

We really didn't need the 2nd game to tell us that, just look at Markoth

[steep talon]

judges are also weavers idea, given grant gate has the same harp weavnests have, or so I assume. So indoctrination goes crazy

[past cypress]

The Underworks were created by Weavers and then upkept by GMS after she started the Haunting, they're both fucked up

[lethal burrow]

"we don't know what she did. We only know that she was bad."
Source: Weavers who never did anything bad or untruthful

also... we KNOW she made the underworks do we? how so? could it not have been established by the Weaver's? is this not more likely considering the mask maker dialogue?

[maiden meteor]

Seer also kinda fucked up there with remembering Rad lmao

[tiny socket]

Unn is pretty chill

[viscid ridge]

It does? Show?

[humble iron]

They destroyed a tramway because they didn't like the pale being so they were most definitely not chill, but maybe less evil

[obsidian quail]

they were upkept by the citadel bugs before that

[past cypress]

Are you really gonna "unreliable narrator" your way through here even though First Sinner exists?

[obsidian quail]

PK has no right to do that when it’s not his land

that doesn’t make them bad

and it looks like they helped with the seals for the Vessel plan

[past cypress]

Being shackled for eternity in a jail for "apostasy" is the most reliable you can get, like they didn't even try to hide that

[humble iron]

Yeah it doesn't make them bad but I do think it's an overreaction, asw as murdering people who come by

[maiden meteor]

according to FS worst thing GMS did was lie of omission about Weavers’ origin

[obsidian quail]

u also see Silk from Weavers den in the Hidden Station

[humble iron]

The prison is an unreliable narrator, trust

[obsidian quail]

did anyone get hurt

PK was moving too bold and i like PK

[humble iron]

The dead worker:

[viscid ridge]

Workers*

[maiden meteor]

Do we 100% it were weavers who halted construction and not more wild Deepnest animals

[past cypress]

And clearly GMS didn't like that accusation because whatever she did caused the Weavers to run the fuck away all the way to HALLOWNEST just to escape her

[humble iron]

Yeah that's fair there's no evidence

[obsidian quail]

do we know the weavers did that and where are the dead workers again i just went through that area

hahahaha

[maiden meteor]

there’s one near bench iirc

[humble iron]

But since Weavers are telling Hornet to be more weaver than Wyrm I wouldn't be surprised if they sabotaged anything related to PK

[obsidian quail]

oh those guys before the failed tramway

[viscid ridge]

A bunch* near tge bench

[obsidian quail]

the Weavers helped PK

[humble iron]

Because Herrah ordered them as it was part of the deal, it does not mean the Weavers appreciated PK in the slightest

[lethal burrow]

yup.

all the first sinner tells us is that the Weaver's were ascended from pharlids and that the Weavers thought grandmother silk was lying about them being divine children.

you seem to be very confident about many things only because you assumed different things first.

You seem very certain that grandmother silk did the imprisoning, but the Weavers who ruled as gods after they imprisoned their own mother, would surely not like saying they are not divine in origin? There is much the same evidence for the Weavers being the ones to chain FS.

also, you didn't address any of the other stuff I said either

[obsidian quail]

u see the seal in their Den and u see their Silk in the Hidden Station next to his palace

[maiden meteor]

as a part of accord with Herrah tbf (or because they didn’t want to die to infection)

[steep talon]

it's a little more different than i originally thought actually

[obsidian quail]

that wasn’t part of the deal, the deal was Dreamer for child

[maiden meteor]

so it’s not like Weavers liked PK but were rather forced to help him by circumstances

[viscid ridge]

Oh yeah i see what you mean, but i dont think theres a connection there

[past cypress]

If it were the post-GMS slumber weavers who imprisoned her then don't you think FS would say that instead of clearly making it about GMS being evil?

[steep talon]

the back harp of weavers looks almost same, but then there is another thing in front

[lethal burrow]

and if it was grandmothers who imprisoned the first sinner, why did the other Weavers not set her free?

[maiden meteor]

oh damn I never actually noticed that

[obsidian quail]

not sure where u guys are seeing this deal from

[humble iron]

I feel like the whole citadel system was thought out by the weavers, they're pretty damn smart afterall

[obsidian quail]

but the deal was Herrah for Hornet

[steep talon]

eh, it's probably nothing

[narrow glacier]

It was. Entirely to hold GMS

[past cypress]

Because GMS was dangerous. That's why they hid in Weavenests and planned escape routes, things we KNOW happened.

[lethal burrow]

The Weavers probably helped the pale king on the basis of not wanting their current home to be completely destroyed

[obsidian quail]

that’s what it seems like

[steep talon]

or some things remains in culture even after they stop making sense. But overall judges were probably from citadel caste not weavers

[obsidian quail]

they’re all cooked if they don’t help

[maiden meteor]

well, Lemm does tell us that silken scrolls were used pretty late in Hallownest history, so imo it makes sense that whatever weavers and PK had going on happened during Vessel Project

[lethal burrow]

you're forgetting there is a long Period "we KNOW happened" where grandmother silk was safely asleep and the weavers ruled.

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, Pale gift to the nest, fair trade for sacrifice made. The trade also probably included the weaving of runes for a bunch of stuff

[obsidian quail]

where are u seeing the trade included that

the Weavers could have just helped because necessity calls for it

[lethal burrow]

there is no evidence for being part of the deal. I think it makes more sense for it to just be self motivated because they didn't want their kingdom to get destroyed.

[humble iron]

They never step foot in their lifetime in the citadel, +since the weavers made the citadel and the door to it why is it so unrealistic that they'd indocrinate a species to become the judges

[maiden meteor]

“lavished in their false rule” no less

[viscid ridge]

I said probably, and also the bunch of silk we see in hidden station and the Pale Kings workshop, aswell as the incomplete rune in Weavers den

[past cypress]

Was there? Then why did Weavers "wait here for so long", why did they get the conductors/bell people to keep GMS asleep, why is FS the only rebellious weaver we meet, what caused them to hide and plan escape routes?

[obsidian quail]

yeah none of that says it was part of the deal

they just helped because the infection is fucking over everybody

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, cause i said probably are you actually stupid?

[obsidian quail]

anyway

i think the Weavers shouldn’t be blamed for everything bad about the citadel, the citadel bugs don’t get enough credit for their shit

[steep talon]

maybe they did indoctrinate judges. I mostly thought that because the harp was the same as weavenest one, and it turned out it isnt. So it probably was built by citadel caste is my logic. Still if the weavers started all this sinning bullshit, maybe first sinner can slot in more nicely, though I dont see the vision yet

[maiden meteor]

I wonder how Vault’s Pontiff died

[humble iron]

Imo they knew that GMS would eventually wake up so some used that opportunity to run away

[maiden meteor]

did he off himself after realizing what they’ve done?

[lethal burrow]

"why was the first sinner the only rebellious weaver we've met" every weaver we know of aside from widow is against grandmother silk tfym

The answer to the first and last of your questions is that grandmother silk eventually started to wake, before that, there was a time where she was just sleeping (sleeping because the weaver bound her btw)

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, i honestly dont think that the weavers played that big of a part in the citidel, that seems to have happened after they left, but im not completely sure on the timeline

[steep talon]

I'm old!

[past cypress]

Except the other weavers we know of are either dead or gone, aka clearly avoiding GMS like a plague.

[humble iron]

Erm some are in stasis, waiting for a weaver to save them

[viscid ridge]

He probably died after completely engrossing himself in his work, and thus died as a result of starvation or something idk

[lethal burrow]

I think they're saying that they don't think it's probable

[past cypress]

Not really "save" them and more like bind them and go kill GMS

[maiden meteor]

aren’t they just dead

“We shall die and wait”

[obsidian quail]

don’t bother with him

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, all of that's true. I don't get where the word "except" falls into this sentence

[viscid ridge]

How come?

[lethal burrow]

Probably because they don't see any evidence for it

[humble iron]

Tbf the weavers thought they could just keep GMS asleep, but even sleeping GMS can use the haunting to attack them so I understand why they'd hide and flee

[steep talon]

I think first sinner needolin says she dead dead, and i guess that was the plan. Not the best plan, but hey it worked

[viscid ridge]

I did list evidence for it but ok

[past cypress]

The real point of this conversation was that Herrah was always a weaver btw idk how we got here

[obsidian quail]

well when GMS was fully asleep she was fine

[obsidian quail]

sure

[lethal burrow]

I don't think they thought it was very good evidence and instead they probably thought that it was quite weak and in fact was probably pointing towards other things.

[humble iron]

I mean yeah and that was probably the time when weavers were ruling over Pharloom

[maiden meteor]

we have this convo on daily basis and it never goes anywhere anyway

[past cypress]

Like I made the point that GMS was a horrible leader and y'all didn't like that for some reason even though Lace herself says that GMS is a shit mom

[lethal burrow]

Conversations can shift

[viscid ridge]

Probably pointing towards?

[humble iron]

Lace is like the most unreliable narrator, but yeah GMS was a horrible leader I agree

[maiden meteor]

Lace is angsty teen and GMS can’t do much Mom Job on the virtue of still being sealed

[lethal burrow]

being a bad leader and a bad mom or different things firstly, but secondly idk what laces problem with grand silk even is

[steep talon]

hey at least she told what GMS plan with Hornet was!! Surely that's decent enough

[obsidian quail]

i also don’t know

[humble iron]

Phantom probably convinced Lace that she had no value and would get discarded in the end

[obsidian quail]

i don’t think lace was handled well

[maiden meteor]

afaik Lace’s problem with Hornet was that she thought that GMS wanted Hornet more than her

[lethal burrow]

it all stems from grandmother silk ambiguity

[maiden meteor]

which is def not true

[humble iron]

yup

[obsidian quail]

i think GMS needed more to her as a character also because it’s a lot of tell don’t show and she’s basically a plot device

[viscid ridge]

Something to do with being spun to fade, which im not completely sure what it means? Does she mean they will inevitably die? But she seems to be immortal, so im not sure

[lethal burrow]

true but that's as far as I can see

[obsidian quail]

how am i supposed to make an accurate judgement on Weavers vs GMS dilemma when their entire era is a complete void besides knowing they played music

[steep talon]

hornet says her life needed to be sustained with a lot of silk, in the journal. ERM, something like that anyway

[dapper willow]

We really needed more lace encounters

[maiden meteor]

GMS era DLC trust

[viscid ridge]

I honestly don't think that GMS treated lace badly, i just think that lace had different views on the subject, so thats why she hates her mother that much

[dapper willow]

Never say never!

[obsidian quail]

get me out of shitloom and take me to steel city TC

[viscid ridge]

Yeah thats true, so thats what im wondering. Is she gonna end up like phantom now that GMS is dead?

[obsidian quail]

or give me another Wyrm, Wyrms are fucking cool

[maiden meteor]

Give me Wyrm Crest

I need to know what is its deal

[lethal burrow]

hornet can make silk

[steep talon]

-> silk producing Hornet that is suffering massive sunk cost fallacy with Lace

[viscid ridge]

We do have an unused wyrm crest, so its very probable we get one in the future

[craggy smelt]

King's Brand

opens that one door back in the Ancient Basin

[maiden meteor]

“Hey Hornet can I have some silk?”
“Only a Spoolful”

[dapper willow]

I cant handle this joke
Its too funny

[obsidian quail]

i would very much like to see a Wyrm that is not pale

and see how they compare

[viscid ridge]

Yeah true, but i dont think hornet can produce enough silk to keep her alive. That honestly sounds like a miserable existence.

[dapper willow]

Any higher being would do who is both not hellbent on killing us and also not sealed or fading

[maiden meteor]

And beating locals isn’t really an option anymore

[obsidian quail]

i wanna see an original form Wyrm talk to hornet like

and then give us some world lore

like first of all where the hell is the sun

[steep talon]

the Wyrm: Shit's fucked, yo

[maiden meteor]

Hornet meets PK’s first wife that is a wyrm

[viscid ridge]

I think its cool to think that the bug world doesn't have a sun. Makes the outside world feel that much more desolate

[maiden meteor]

Or maybe “Surface” isn’t surface at all

[viscid ridge]

Pale King is a faithful husband. He loves his gigantic vegetable wife ❤️

[maiden meteor]

Imagine real surface has civilization of some highly advanced bugs alike to Abyss Civ but opposite

[sacred mural]

So only embrace the void delicate flower is canon

[maiden meteor]

imo Hearts are equivalent of dream essence

[viscid ridge]

Yeah definitely, i think the true surface is probably the place where Zemir and the everbloom comes from

[maiden meteor]

which as we know allows to empower dream based things

[lethal burrow]

"they white lady glows because she had sex with the pale king!"

[steep talon]

in the lore chanel? It's everbloom, it kills void more or less, the only thing that can*(citation needed), the memory of the flower is long in the past so the spell needs a lot of power from old bugs. Thats's about it

[sacred mural]

Is silksong based on the embrace the void with flower ending

[lethal burrow]

yeah that's why its called the surface

[maiden meteor]

More like she had to reach really deep in her memory

[lethal burrow]

yeah and its called "underground"

[maiden meteor]

welcome to the underground

[viscid ridge]

Honestly i cant prove it, but ive always been of the belief that when the pale king died in hallownest, his corpse fertilized the ground around him and then the white lady grew as a result. I think its a sweet idea that the Pale King and the White lady came as a package deal

[obsidian quail]

fun fact, Pale King and the Wyrm lore are dune references

or inspired by Dune

[sacred mural]

Was the knight during the true ending lord of shades or void given form

[maiden meteor]

I hope we get scene of Hornet ODing on Spice

[maiden meteor]

uncertain

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, Pale king is based off of one depiction of the Sandworms where its all white

[maiden meteor]

I lean towards EtV

[obsidian quail]

that should have been Lifeblood

there is blue liquid in dune called the Water of Life

[maiden meteor]

oh shit fr

[viscid ridge]

In the dream no more ending, it is the lord of shades, and the godhome endings he is the god of gods, but were not totally sure

[obsidian quail]

yeah it’s the concentrated liquid version of the spice that everyone is addicted to

[maiden meteor]

Hollow Knight is just a really convoluted retelling of Dune

[obsidian quail]

Pale King and his future sight too

he’s a walking dune reference

[maiden meteor]

Wasn’t there also some guy reborn into worm god in later books

[obsidian quail]

they actually read the novels as they made Hollow Knight

yeah Leto II

[viscid ridge]

Honestly thats actually such a cool connection, i never made the connection between spice and lifeblood

[obsidian quail]

worm god emperor with powerful future sight

[viscid ridge]

Heres HR Gigers depiction of the Sandworms, which im pretty sure inspired the White Wyrms design

[maiden meteor]

I hope we get Hollow Knight game based on Discworld

[obsidian quail]

the spice/water of life also prolongs lifespan and heightens ur vitality

so Dune is definitely one of the main influences

[real escarp]

IMO PK couldn't really see the future in the sense of actually seeing events that will happen. His "foresight" was just intelligence. The same way you won't touch a hot surface because you can "see" yourself in the future getting burned.

[viscid ridge]

And makes you see the future, like the PK does

[dapper willow]

Bug space program
Go where nobody has gone before

[sacred mural]

So dream no more is the canon ending?

[obsidian quail]

Prescience is the act of seeing the future which all Wyrms have

[viscid ridge]

Technically their all canon, but i think Dream no More works best as the canon ending

[maiden meteor]

btw do we think Radiance is actually goddess of dream realm or just has closer connection to it

[obsidian quail]

regular consumers can barely see anything, it usually helps in fights

[summer mauve]

The only one I'll argue definitely isn't canon is the siblings ending

[obsidian quail]

they see a little

[sacred mural]

Would the delicate flower ending explain why the void is at pharloom

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, but im refering to the Spacing Guild Navigators, who specifically use spice to see into the future

[summer mauve]

What's the connection there?

[obsidian quail]

oh that’s true

[viscid ridge]

The void is everywhere if you dig down deep enough

[obsidian quail]

i put PK more along the lines of Paul and Leto II

[real escarp]

Look at the example for Prescience. I doubt Jung had any supernatural powers, but he still predicted stuff

[obsidian quail]

who were born very special

they’re really foreseeing shit

[summer mauve]

PK's actual ability to see the future isn't sufficiently explained honestly. However much foresight he had, it clearly wasn't enough

[viscid ridge]

Yeah thats true, i honesty think pale king is directly inspired by Leto II

Worm god king

[sacred mural]

Like the flower makes the void disappear with it

[sacred mural]

Where did that come from

[viscid ridge]

Its stated by hornet a few times in Silksong

[summer mauve]

I can see the connection, but I wouldn't say he was inspired by Leto. Kings with foresight is a fairly common trope. And I feel the worm / wyrm thing is a coincidence

[obsidian quail]

that’s fair but they really beat u over the head with Wyrms/PK being special and not just mere intelligence, they constantly talk about PK foreseeing stuff

it’s very Dune coded

[summer mauve]

I know about the flower. I'm asking why that would explain why the void was in Pharloom. Would the flower banish the void to Pharloom somehow?

[obsidian quail]

even PK was similar to Paul where they both saw the future and tried to avoid it

[summer mauve]

There are so many stories with that trope

Usually regarding children prophecised to kill them

Dune did not invent prescience as a trope

[viscid ridge]

I would agree with you, but TC said they took inspiration from dune while making HK so i am pretty sure thats where the concept of the Pale king came from

[summer mauve]

Oh. In that case, yes, absolutely. I retract my previous statements

[viscid ridge]

"A creature long familiar to me. I suspect that no matter how far I travel, if I descend deep enough they will always be there. "

"But always, child, I remain a daughter of Hallownest. And the void below all things, that darkness I will fear no longer..."

Theres also a few other mentions of it, but these are the 2 that comes ti mind

[obsidian quail]

of course but PK is a walking Dune reference so i referenced Paul specifically

that is a classic

Paul’s last name actually comes from greek tragic heroes because greek tragedies predate both

it was a god or a hero i can’t remember

something to do with greek tragedy

[summer mauve]

I didn't know the devs confirmed they'd taken inspiration from Dune, sorry. Not that I can't see some connection. It just felt a bit tenuous to me

But if the devs confirmed it, that makes a difference

[obsidian quail]

we just dissected how Pale King’s entire character is a Dune reference

[steep talon]

they said they read some dune book as they were making hollow knight. Both William and Ari

[obsidian quail]

also Lifeblood

[lethal burrow]

where does your pfp come from

[steep talon]

isnt it just ai-genned?

[west aurora]

Aight i've got a big timeline question i just cant piece together myself
||Grand Mother Silk. She's the center of the plot and it annoys me how little i understand her.||
||to my understanding: Silk uplifted simple spiders into Weavers (first sinner cutscene) and either she turned on them, or the Weavers turned on her. At the same time the Citadel's bugs started hunting Weavers for their silk to make themselves immortal.||
||so what's the order of events here, and what is Grandma Silk's allegiance? Is she with the Citadel? They built the whole structure around her in her worship, but she started Haunting them.
Is she with the Weavers? First Sinner call her a liar, and every Weaver brought to the Cradle died.
Was it the Citadel that lulled her into sleep with their song to then hunt Weavers while she couldn't help them?||

[maiden meteor]

Weavers lulled GMS to sleep and built Citadel to keep her asleep

then she began haunting to try get out and used citadel bugs to hunt weavers

Mask Maker explains most of it

[steep talon]

GMS uplifted weavers
Weavers decided to fuck around and lull GMS to sleep
Passed this task into citadel bugs

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

[sacred mural]

It's ai

[lethal burrow]

if so then its Squalid horrid rancid foul repugnant and abhorrent

[lethal burrow]

Ah.

[zinc pivot]

1. Silk’s allegiance is to herself and her only silk daughter. The Citadel is a scheme devised by the Weavers, in order to pull unsuspecting bugs into helping them maintain the seal on Silk.
   Silk is making the Citadel (more accurately the Choir that governs the Citadel) work for her.
2. As stated, her allegiance (as of now) is to herself. Weavers, the one she called children, turn their back on her, and kept her seal, so 3. she’s making the Choir hunting all of them down presumably to undo all their lives and return to her former strength.

[steep talon]

bro..smh

[teal drift]

TC hiding key lore behind unmasked maskmaker dialogue is hilarious

[steep talon]

i wouldnt have it any other way

[zinc pivot]

True Lorekeepers dig around for every information, so it’s only a fair reward

[maiden meteor]

TC will never not hide critical lore behind obscure interactions

[teal drift]

My interpretation is gms is a grubhub addict constantly ordering weaverspawn from distant kingdoms

[maiden meteor]

Like Bardoon just dropping motherload of Wyrm lore

[sacred mural]

Is the delicate flower the everbloom?

[trim lark]

in the third game theres gna be an npc that appears only when we delete a fuckin coconut jpeg in the files and gives us exposition on everything

[trim lark]

yeah

[maiden meteor]

oh also we’re forgetting Zote casually revealing truth about infection in precept 56

[sacred mural]

Then hornet would need to no hit ll

[vague whale]

zote being lore important is absolutely insane ngl

[west aurora]

One thing that doesn't make sense to me though: the Haunting seems like an entirely recent phenomenon.
The Bellhart shopkeeper survived on their supplies when it began (possibly hellhart was afflicted later?) and it must've been a few months at most.
Also the bugs sent to capture Hornet - were they Haunted? Surely a dormant GMS can't control a bug all the way in Hallownest?

[maiden meteor]

I assume that Ze’mer’s flowers are kinda weak

but one WL had in memory was actually good

[west aurora]

And you can only unmask them with charged needle strike lol

[steep talon]

it is recent yes. GMS sorta kinda waking up more or less. Bellhart haunting happened becasue of widow being above them and in close proximity, id wager.
Were captors haunted - probably? Maybe not im not sure myself

[dapper willow]

the haunting is gradual

[maiden meteor]

presumably they used choral commandments to keep on task

there’s one commanding Hornet capture

[teal drift]

captors are haunted based on hornet's description of their uncanny syncronization

I think some haunted beings are more sentient than we think

[west aurora]

That's kinda wild if true, that she can reach a Haunted bug no matter where they are

[steep talon]

yes, but also would they need a commandement describing where to go if it's just GMS telling them where to go

[viscid ridge]

I think the haunting has been going on a while, but bellhart has been recently hit by it. Also the envoys that captured Hornet were probably not haunted

[teal drift]

I think its a mixture of both being self aware and being sentient

[maiden meteor]

They probably weren’t directly controlled by GMS but were still afflicted with haunting

[sacred mural]

Is lace a child?

[teal drift]

oh no

[viscid ridge]

Because the capturing of hornet seems to be something that was carried out separate from the haunting.

[maiden meteor]

She certainly acts like one

I wonder why tho

[west aurora]

Childish and immature yes, but she's older than most bugs in pharloom

[viscid ridge]

Definitely. She is like a teenager, so the Hornet x Lace ships are really weird to me

[maiden meteor]

Phantom seems pretty mature

[teal drift]

I also think it's possible the "capture weavers" initiative was started by the common bugs in hopes weavers could stop GMS from waking. Therefore the ones that captured hornet were following old commands.

[west aurora]

She was shaped to be a daughter. From the ground up, her existence was meant to be that of GMS's child

[viscid ridge]

She might be ancient, but she is still a child on the inside as said by the caretaker

[sacred mural]

What makes her childish

[maiden meteor]

Hornet directly says she was captured because “someone on top” wants her silk

[sacred mural]

Did you play one shot?

[west aurora]

Laughing at everything, acting rash, unable to process her emotions

[viscid ridge]

I doubt it, it seems like GMS wanted to bind other weavers as said by Hornet in act 3 i think

[west aurora]

Hell yeah i did

[maiden meteor]

so was Phantom just proof of concept then?

and Lace an actual daughter

[viscid ridge]

Older sister i guess

[zinc pivot]

Maybe phantom is shaped to be the mature one

[teal drift]

I think she speculates it, and the bugs writing the commandments would be on top if they issued it.

[west aurora]

Perhaps the silk captured from weavers was used to lull GMS further into sleep. The whole coccon around her seems artificial and she tears out of it when the battle starts.

[steep talon]

well, "someone on top" could also mean conductors. So it's possible it was common bugs that decided to do it

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, but it seems GMS is the one who wanted the weavers, not her servants.

[teal drift]

I dont really believe that the bugs sought weavers, but it is a possibility that would explain the commandments about hornet's capture existing.

[west aurora]

Btw do we have any mention of conductor Romino (opening poem) in the actual game

[viscid ridge]

Nope, guess he was just some random nobody with no relevance, which is kinda disappointing

[maiden meteor]

to me it seems like she directly implies GMS here

[maiden meteor]

some people theorize he’s the Old Penitent

[west aurora]

Tbf it is her best guess at that moment

[maiden meteor]

because Old Penitent mentions some “Accord” with “Sisters” in his needoline dialogue

[steep talon]

kinda? That big penitent bug sings conductors melody when needolined, so some theorize it's Romino. He also speaks that his sin was insanely grave that caused a lot of suffering

[viscid ridge]

Definitely, as i stated, theres dialogue in act 3 where Hornet says that GMS was the one wanting the weavers

[twin dragon]

at that point hornet doesn't know of gms

[west aurora]

Also do we know why the Weavers first turned on GMS?

[twin dragon]

She only knows someone wants her for some reason

[steep talon]

they're assholes

[maiden meteor]

she can def sense a powerful being ontop of Citadel

[twin dragon]

She was nowhere near though

[steep talon]

it's just GMS is a bigger uh dipshit

[twin dragon]

Either tired of eternal servitude, or they're assholes

[viscid ridge]

Not totally sure, there is hints of them being controlled by her, or them feeling betrayed that they were not her true daughters

[maiden meteor]

I think she mentions couple times she feels her kin atop Citadel

[twin dragon]

But since they built the citadel, they are assholes

Unravelled silk heart talks about gms "binding their shells"

[maiden meteor]

aren’t Silk Hearts dialogue from GMS pov

[west aurora]

Well the structures they built and especially Shellwood and weaver effigies - they seemed to want peace with other bugs, and those other bugs adored them. Shellwood mentions smth about safe passage and "no longer your meal"

[twin dragon]

lace one says "from our silk"

[maiden meteor]

Weavers built religious myth around themselves

[steep talon]

other bugs being piligrims and citadel bugs, not the actual neighboring bugs like Skarrs or Crustkin

[zinc pivot]

I would say that citadel used to be decent
Until Weavers passed on their rule to the Choir, that’s when industrialization become severe

[maiden meteor]

Only Nyleth seemed to be chill with Citadel

[west aurora]

Yeah it's why i say that shellwood and weavers seemed to be alright with each other

[maiden meteor]

We only really have info on Current Citadel and Early Citadel

[zinc pivot]

Because there is an abandoned Weaver shrine in Underworks, which means Underworks used to be not a thing or not as bad as it used to be

[twin dragon]

I am going to assume that gms wanted the weavers shipped to recover what she lost when creating them

Or regain strength after waking up

[maiden meteor]

Early Citadel’s primary knowledge is that it was made of stone and had Sentinels protect pilgrims

[zinc pivot]

I mean she is eating them already
Those cages are empty

[west aurora]

Well she tears that giant cocoon into pieces so skill issue

[twin dragon]

She took a while to do that sooo

[maiden meteor]

she got angry Hornet killed Lace

Hornet literally ragebaited her smh

[twin dragon]

Cocoon is pulsating the whole time

[steep talon]

or if you wanna believe lace
"Letting you live was my rebellion, spider. I've denied my mother your silken strength. I've won." erm whatever that means, probably just absorbing them

[twin dragon]

Sentinels were def created by the choir

[maiden meteor]

actually they were created by First Architect

[twin dragon]

As the pin clan hunt began after sentinels were introduced

[maiden meteor]

and predate even Cogwork Core itself

[twin dragon]

Which is part of the choir and the working bugs efforts

[zinc pivot]

Hornet the world ending rage baiter
Bait a prince of a lost kingdom into killing himself
Bait a conchfly that lost his mate into killing itself

[maiden meteor]

ahh I thought you mean High Halls Choir

[west aurora]

I think the only reason the citadel doesn't go all out against Hornet, and why they don't outright destroy Songclave, is because GMS wants Hornet to come to her and bind their power together

[twin dragon]

They used fourth chorus to hunt down seamstress

[twin dragon]

Cut ending gms straight up binds hornet to herself

[zinc pivot]

Architect is the product of old weavers actually
They were made to maintain the core machinery of Citadel

[maiden meteor]

I think it is stated that Songclave’s Bell acts like protection against Haunting

[twin dragon]

When is it stated

[viscid ridge]

My interpretation of what GMS wanted the weavers for, is to bind their crests. Hornet seems to become more powerful, the more creatures crests she binds, and the normal ending shows Hornet binding GMSs crest. So it seems GMS just wanted to gain more power, but it still doesn't completely fit

[twin dragon]

Sentinels have the choir's sigil too

[zinc pivot]

Told by Twelfth Architect themselves

[maiden meteor]

Architects base their craft off of Weavers’ creations but we don’t know exactly who built architects

[twin dragon]

They seem to be the communal effort of the citadel

As seen when you obtain the melody

[west aurora]

Tbf the Weaver's technology is kinda incredible, feels like even with its scale, the Citadel is just playing catch-up

[maiden meteor]

I think to some point architects are based on Weaver tech but that’s as far as I’d go in my assumptions

[twin dragon]

Citadel still used weaver tech even when weavers dipped

[maiden meteor]

Since Weavers could make artificial silk life I thinks mechanical AIs wouldn’t be too far fetched

[twin dragon]

Actually they're powered by siphoned souls

the little flies that fly out when you kill a clanker

[zinc pivot]

Well
Things like the Weaver turrets don’t have soul in them

And Second Sentinel is powered by a cog heart

And Eva exists

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, but the cogwork robots seem very different than the weaver constructs. The cogwork ones seems to use Lumaflies to function, but also seems to use silk in some way, while the weaver bots seems purely powered by silk and power cells idk

[zinc pivot]

Safe to say weavers do have crazy magitech potential

[twin dragon]

Lumaflies are souls given shape

[west aurora]

Btw what do yall think about the theory that First Sinner is Atla?
If I assume that Atla is one of the oldest Weavers, due to having the largest and most advanced Weavenest, she'd be old enough to be the first to develop silk runes, old enough to experiment with the Snare and Eva, and old enough to be wise/grumpy and rebel against GMS

[twin dragon]

You can see that through fourth chorus's needolin dialogue

[viscid ridge]

I am aware, but it doesn't really matter, as silk is also a form of soul so

[west aurora]

I thought it meant that the different chorus robots are meant to act as one

[steep talon]

maybe, but needolin ghosts near snare setters have regular heads, so id say no for now

[twin dragon]

Those names can be completely made up and used as religious figures

[viscid ridge]

Its a very strange distinction between them

[twin dragon]

Yeah well they use some form of conscience

[twin dragon]

I'd say silk is a shape of soul

Pale beings seem to be the gods of soul or related to it in some way

[west aurora]

I think of Silk like mana in other fantasy

[zinc pivot]

Her head is deliberately obscured instead of full circle

I made sure of that by breaking all the lights, it interferes with memory sequence

[steep talon]

oh interesting

[mystic fiber]

i had one question, after weavers trapped GMS in the cocoon, how did it went from mortal bugs worshipping weavers to citadel ruling over everything and some weaver even caged in the slab

really couldnt figure it out myself

[twin dragon]

also it is stated somewhere that silk is basically soul woven and given a shape

[twin dragon]

Citadel was built to maintain gms trapped basically

[viscid ridge]

The materium

[twin dragon]

Consequences caught up to weavers

[west aurora]

So we talked here before how the weavers seemed to pass their work of lulling GMS to the Citadel

[zinc pivot]

The power was passed on to the citadel (said by weaver of weavenest cindril and by ballador)

[twin dragon]

They might've either been kicked out or escaped fearing what would become of them if the plan would fail

[mystic fiber]

silk description says it's "spun from the soul of its creator"

[twin dragon]

Yeah that

[zinc pivot]

I have a theory that after the haunting begins, all weavers in the kingdom were hunted down
First Sinner actually died and got enshrined in prior, so the choir instead sealed them away in slab

[mystic fiber]

then the citadel overthrown weavers?

[abstract rivet]

lets get silked up

[twin dragon]

First sinner might've been enslabbed by the weavers, due to her rejecting their divine nature and revealing the truth

[west aurora]

Nah, GMS started waking up and Haunted the citadel bugs to then hunt Weavers for turning on her

[zinc pivot]

More accurately, GMS made the Choir hunt them down
The power was passed on before that by Weavers, to the Choir

[abstract rivet]

If i am right after weavers died Conductors ruled Citadel yeah?

[viscid ridge]

I honestly dont think the weavers created the citidel, it doesn't share their architecture in any way. There is a missing piece to the puzzle we dont know yet

[abstract rivet]

they built it

[twin dragon]

GMS at that point couldn't do anything, she only recently started haunting bugs due to her waking up and extending her will in the form of silk

[viscid ridge]

Source?

[mystic fiber]

hmm so citadel before GMS waking up maintained their position under weavers?

[zinc pivot]

I doubt it, Weavers could just, kill her

[west aurora]

Not themselves, they could've instructed the bugs worshipping them to build it

[abstract rivet]

oh also that works

[twin dragon]

I don't think they would do that to one of their kind

[abstract rivet]

conductors ruled citadel for a time yeah?

[twin dragon]

And she's dead so actually they might've

[abstract rivet]

weavers are the most shady species i wouldnt doubt

[west aurora]

Pretty much as long as the citadel actually existed, they were meant to be at the top

[twin dragon]

her remains are sealed

[zinc pivot]

Well, she could be pulling strings, conductors are those figure of power after all
And you see their shit? Those giant reeds

[viscid ridge]

Plausible, but i still think that the weavers were already gone from pharloom before the citidel was constructed. Unless there is something i missed in game that states otherwise

[mystic fiber]

and the silk experiment in whiteward, did they happen before weavers got hunted down or after

[zinc pivot]

We don’t know what GMS was like during the beginning of Haunting

[twin dragon]

all of the silk usage from the choir comes from whiteward experiments

[twin dragon]

Asleep

[zinc pivot]

She was waking up

[twin dragon]

And they used gms to harvest silk yeah, but she couldn't do shit about it

[viscid ridge]

How?

[zinc pivot]

No clue in game said the silk comes from gms

[twin dragon]

Now that it is basically everywhere, she can

[twin dragon]

She was asleep.

[twin dragon]

Where do you think it would come otherwise

The citadel's sigil is literally her cocoon too

[west aurora]

Well GMS's eyes were constantly on the weavers. They needed to lull her into sleep - and to sustain that state - in order to act independently. So when "the burden is passed" [cindril harp], the citadel is already in place to take that task

[viscid ridge]

But where is it stated in game that they used her to get silk? That seems pretty blasphemous.

[mystic fiber]

surgeon enemy "Their procedures with Silk may have prolonged life within the Citadel, but they unknowingly gifted many minds to the monarch."

the silk may not come directly from gms

[twin dragon]

Not sure, but everything points to that

[viscid ridge]

Oh that clears things up

[mystic fiber]

but she definitly had control over it

[viscid ridge]

Such as?

[twin dragon]

Citadel sigil being her cocoon, a lot of silk usage everywhere, even when the weavers were gone

[west aurora]

Also caretaker (paraphrasing) "with so many generations of bugs infused with her silk, it only had to look for itself"

[viscid ridge]

Yeah cause she is their god, but why does that indicate they use her silk?

[mystic fiber]

citadel it self is kinda blasphemous, imagine making a god in her trap your logo

[twin dragon]

Their gods were the weavers

[viscid ridge]

That makes sense

[twin dragon]

I don't think they actually venerated gms

[west aurora]

Tbf presumably no one but the Conductors at the very top knew the nature of the kingdom

[viscid ridge]

They definitely do, a lot of characters revere her as their monarch, but they also revered the weavers in the past

[west aurora]

At the same time, a lot of bugs seem to despise weavers? Or at least they're happy that they all died

[mystic fiber]

shakra seems to despise weaver even she might never met one

[west aurora]

Even Shakra

[viscid ridge]

My guess its because they betrayed GMS so everyone thinks they are traitors, or its been so long since they were worshipped that everyone forgot who they were

[zinc pivot]

Hard to tell since Cardinius and 12A still oblige by Hornets demand

[twin dragon]

But few know of her actual state

[zinc pivot]

Maybe Weavers appeared to Shakras tribe before and weren’t exactly the most polite

[mystic fiber]

there had been a huge time gap between when citadel first experiment with silk and when the game takes place.

[twin dragon]

Which is why whoever knows the threefold melody, must be an important member of the citadel

[west aurora]

I wonder why would GMS really go with the Haunting. At least to the point where the kingdom becomes completely dysfunctional and pilgrims turn into animals on the roads. Was pharloom always doomed?

[west aurora]

Yeah caretaker calls it many generations

[twin dragon]

Probably wrath

Mind you everything that is pharloom now was built at her expense unwillfully

[mystic fiber]

just checked it's actually hornet saying the line

[west aurora]

Yeah they built that triple statue in the very center of the kingdom, so it was clearly important for pilgrims to try? And yet getting these melodies seems impossible for the average bug. Cardinus says that no one other than the Keepers can learn theirs.

[twin dragon]

Or might be instinctive response

[mystic fiber]

but it makes sense anyway

[twin dragon]

keep in mind that the elevator is guarded by the cogwork dancers

[mystic fiber]

i think when weavers were still in charge it might be a good kingdom. but it's definitly doomed now

[zinc pivot]

Well he wasn’t the Pontiff
The Pontiff should be the one with the authority
And how’s Pontiff?
dead

[twin dragon]

and whoever tried must've been worthy of it pretty sure

[west aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/you-ded-you-dieded-died-dieded-hornet-died-gif-8163515769741623680

[zinc pivot]

Or mayyyyybe, the plan is that ONLY weavers are allowed to receive the Keepers melody

Because Cardinius obliged to Hornet

[twin dragon]

Nah not rlly

[mystic fiber]

but why do they have to go to the cradle. i know floor made with white flowers are cool and all but why actually

[twin dragon]

Cardinius says that hornet sucks ass lmao

[twin dragon]

Flowers might've been something of lace's request idk

And to harvest silk and do stuff

[mystic fiber]

i mean the pilgrim. it's the end of their journey right? why it has to be the cradle

[west aurora]

Well the Weavers originally had the authority. 12A and Cardinus answer to Hornet since she's "a first child", she's a special case, normal bugs probably wouldnt get shit from them

[twin dragon]

Haunting might also be gms extending her will due to her not being able to do it in her weakened and sealed state

[twin dragon]

nope, the end of the journey is the citadel pretty sure

to be part of the choir

[mystic fiber]

oh yeah that makes sense

[twin dragon]

And everyone else is dead and she's the last one who could keep the memories of the citadel

[west aurora]

The vast majority that reach the citadel will likely never attempt the melodies. Those who do, and succeed, will know enough about the kingdom to be able to take the revelation that GMS really is - and become conductors.

Thats my take

[zinc pivot]

Doesn’t mean he can resist the keeper’s code of serving the weavers
You can see how he’s stuck in the old ways

[mystic fiber]

hot take. i'm not really sure how they become conductors, or perhaps The Conductor

[twin dragon]

Im sure keepers were established after weavers dipped

As caridinius seems to despise them

[twin dragon]

Why is this a hot take nobody does lmao

[zinc pivot]

Then he has no reason to give Hornet money of any kind

[mystic fiber]

[west aurora]

A conductor is the highest caste of bug in pharloom. You must know enough about the kingdom, have enough influence, and clearly also know about GMS to be able to actually "guide the land ever on to greatness"

[twin dragon]

He wants the memories and knowledge of the citadel live on

[zinc pivot]

Provide concrete dialogue to prove this point?

[west aurora]

So those are the prerequisites to become a conductor, from there you grow big, get stuffed with silk, and get that funny cap i guess lol.

[mystic fiber]

ok so about the whiteward conductor. did other planned this or did he himself just, you know , yolo it

[zinc pivot]

That he’s doing this not just because the keepers directive is to serve the first children of Pharloom?

[twin dragon]

To serve pharloom

[west aurora]

So that's no longer a conductor, it's a mass of souls and silk tangled together in eternal pain

[zinc pivot]

I asked to provide evidence of what you said earlier please

[twin dragon]

He seems to rlly love his job

You might be right with the first child part though

[west aurora]

But presumably conductor Mizello, whose cyllinder is nearby and has a record of his last surgery, is the center of that mass

[mystic fiber]

i know that's no longer a conductor but before the procedure failed, that guy was referred to as conductor by the cylinder.(forgor guy's name) since conductor are of higher rankings in citadel then it means that themself or someone with equal or higher rank directed the experiment right?

[west aurora]

I dunno. They call that place the "operating theater". They might've treated it like a stage play, since music is such a big part of the culture. And the conductor, in that moment, was just a participant.

[maiden meteor]

I mean medical “theaters” were used in universities no?

basically people gather to watch how operations are done

[west aurora]

Oh i didnt know lol

[maiden meteor]

this kinda thing

[west aurora]

what in god's name is an .avif

[maiden meteor]

oh

[mystic fiber]

yeah maybe they were trying to gain more knowledge of the silk. seeing how it was recorded onto a cylinder

[maiden meteor]

my bad

[maiden meteor]

go go gadget screenshot

[mystic fiber]

and i dont think that bug noise under extreme pain makes a pleasant music

[maiden meteor]

so basically yeah Operating Theaters are a real thing

or were idk

I assume Whiteward surgeons were passing their “knowledge” that way

“Watch and learn”

The bug in recording probably explains procedure as well

[zinc pivot]

Speaking of whiteward
Any clue on what the spears on the operating tables might be?

[west aurora]

And how the head of that spear is the logo of the Whiteward

[whole holly]

more modern version of .webp

[west aurora]

It might be a larger version of the actual tool they used to stuff silk into a bug

Like a sewing machine kinda thing

[cobalt flame]

They might bigger just to accommodate for the conductors size

[west aurora]

Kinda related. The oath of the whiteward says that death and sickness are banished from the citadel, so if you died on the operating table, you commited a sin and were thrown out without ceremony

[mystic fiber]

also i've found an evidence for my "plasmium found in pharloom bay" theory. in a lore tablet of murglin weavenest , it says "Sister, spider, sat between salt and stone," and the weavenest just happens to be located between where pharloom bay were to be and the lost verdania. zylotol says plasmium was first found "deep in salt-stricken waters" so it really checks out

[west aurora]

So the bay was connected to a larger salty sea?

Might be a dlc area who knows

[mystic fiber]

yep that's why it's called a bay

[whole holly]

i also believe this, i can't wait for Pharloom Bay to be in DLC(if it actually will be in DLC)

[west aurora]

Tbh not sure if it makes sense geographically since the pale lake would be directly above a sea

[whole holly]

it doesn't have to follow irl geography

[west aurora]

It is underground, yeah

[mystic fiber]

not really directly above, more of a top left position. very little overlap between the bay's waters(the wavy line) and the lake

[whole holly]

that does make more sense

[mystic fiber]

also we just dont know what's in the right of pharloom bay, the sea might just go on and hornet got block by invisible wall or something

[whole holly]

is it actually accessible area in game files?

[mystic fiber]

we can get the map

but no way to access the area itself

atleast to my knowledge

[whole holly]

not with gamefiles or hacks?

[dapper willow]

I think the yare gonna expand the bilewater
Because where the pharloom bay connects there are no paths at all
Its a big void on the map

[craggy smelt]

such potential...

[mystic fiber]

i really dont know. as far as im awared of, we can get the map with cheats or something , but no one managed to access the area itself. any attempt just gives you a blackscreen and send hornet back

[dapper willow]

WHO IS READY FOR MORE BILEWATER PEOPLE

[maiden meteor]

Bilestwater

[mystic fiber]

funny how you should say that since the bay was actually planned to connect to the bilewater but got cut

[dapper willow]

What if the most disgusting putrid and horrible part of bilewater is the area that connects it to the bay

[mystic fiber]

"Contrasting this, the game's code can showcase the area being placed near Bilewater, implying that the area may have been moved before being cut.[4] This lines up with 2 cut unused rooms in Bilewater added in the ACMI February 2023 map, which persisted to the August 2025 map."

from hollow knight wiki

[maiden meteor]

it can’t get worse than Groal arena

can it?

[dapper willow]

Yes I know
Im saying if the bay comes back its gonna make bilewater bigger because ut needs a connecting path, and there is a big void in the middle of bilewater where I think the path will be

[mystic fiber]

yeaaah we can get more bilewater

bilewater fans eating good

[maiden meteor]

Our Peak is forever.

[dapper willow]

Well its gonna be dlc, and tc only made harder than basegame dlc so...

[vague whale]

there are Bilewater fans?

[mystic fiber]

i support pharloom bay being dlc theory

[maiden meteor]

Me

TC locked in to make the worst area possible and they delivered

[vague whale]

send this one to Whiteward to get the brain inspected

[dapper willow]

I wish team cherry aso expanded on somw neglected areas
Such as ducts. There is not much to do there aside from the fleas
Maybe a super secret area above it

[zinc pivot]

They should’ve added like, stilkin outposts there

[dapper willow]

Yeah
Thats actually aesome idea !

[mystic fiber]

dude's secretly a stilkin

[maiden meteor]

Sinner’s Road is the best area because it has my husband Styx

[zinc pivot]

this isn’t because i want barnaks to eat one of those fuckers

[maiden meteor]

Barnaks are so funny

literal Half Life reference

[vague whale]

Sinner's Road sucks but Styx is cool

[dapper willow]

Hunter's march could use some more sauce too
Because if you look at it it really is just a single path + beastfly
Maybe a connecting route to greymoor

[vague whale]

Why'd they have to make the orange area hell

[mystic fiber]

they are untill they snap me when i was being chased by one million enemies

[vague whale]

Agreed, yeah. So odd that it wasn't much

[zinc pivot]

Hunter’s march was missing a lot of ant architecture

Like look at the first trailer background

[maiden meteor]

for whatever reason TC decided to make Pharloom more desolate

[mystic fiber]

agreed

[maiden meteor]

alas

[dapper willow]

There are a lot of voids in the map which I hate

[vague whale]

YEAH ITS TERRIBLE

[maiden meteor]

imo Verdania being real world map and not dream would be peak cinema

[ebon silo]

Whispering vaults??

[zinc pivot]

Can’t believe they spoiled act 3 early

[mystic fiber]

vaults was cool

[vague whale]

no I meant Sinner's Road

[zinc pivot]

You thought it was void jokes on you heres real void on the map

[mystic fiber]

tho i rarely revisit it

[vague whale]

to be fair several places are orange

[maiden meteor]

Map voids is just place for dlc content. Trust.

[ebon silo]

Isn't sinners road red or something

[vague whale]

I really hope so...

[vague whale]

It's a pale orange

[maiden meteor]

They should add Hornet vs Hive Knight in memory dlc

[mystic fiber]

it has the easyest pale oil, which makes vault instantly 10/10

[maiden meteor]

the only easy oil*

[zinc pivot]

I do like how pale oil is gated by real challenge

[ebon silo]

Indeed yes

[zinc pivot]

In the first game the real hard pale ore is the Colo 2 one

[dapper willow]

I WISH

[mystic fiber]

got silked lmao

[maiden meteor]

it’s funny how hardest oil is fucking flea one

[ebon silo]

Act 4 hollow knight appearance when 🥀

[zinc pivot]

Got silk in my brain mommy gms pls control me

[low obsidian]

is the wingmould journal entry the only direct reference to pale king in the game

[mystic fiber]

true. i finished the meat quest second try

[ebon silo]

Really? Didn't have that much of that issue just the dodging thing

[mystic fiber]

but the flea

[maiden meteor]

this one the void shall take

[vague whale]

not her name

[mystic fiber]

damn the fleas

[vague whale]

clearly you meant to say "Grand Mommy Silk"

[ebon silo]

Yeah we gonna have to shoot bro

[dapper willow]

I love how the nail upgrades are gated behind quests
Its much more interesting than just randomly finding them

[weak kayak]

whats in the flea effigy? was it a bug or just a bunch of rewards?

[maiden meteor]

Food quest is pretty straightforward

Flea Festival is hell

[low obsidian]

i like how she doesnt gaf about him. all she remembers is his evil torture hell palace.

[mystic fiber]

nah

[maiden meteor]

only hard foods are like rasher and muckmaggot

[dapper willow]

I like the pharloom food lore the quest provides

[ebon silo]

I wonder where the other last claw is considering after the haunting and as time and time past one of them was made into a trophy by gurr the outcast but I wonder where the other went could it be the mottled skarr? But very different designs

[mystic fiber]

direct reference of PK making his head platforming challenges

[dapper willow]

Dlc boss maybe
I'd do anything

[ebon silo]

Wait this implies the white palace is literally a parkour arena like even then visiting the memory you'd still have to parkour through some stuff

No wonder

[dapper willow]

Underworks needs a boss tbh
Its a major area and it has none

[maiden meteor]

PK loved him some parkour

[mystic fiber]

yes he's just obessed with platforming

[low obsidian]

it's a really funny implication

[ebon silo]

The unravelled could be considered

But yes whiteward etc

[dapper willow]

Its whiteward
Whiteward is its own little corner of hell

[maiden meteor]

Imagine delivering PK annual budget report

[zinc pivot]

Choral Chambers have no boss too

Unlesd you count SS

[low obsidian]

choral chambers feels like an odd sorta hubworld to me

[mystic fiber]

i'd like a double fourth chorus fight

[west aurora]

In parkour civilization, no one jumps for the silk.

[dapper willow]

Why would he not count
But I'm up for another

[mystic fiber]

it would look cool, but maybe not really fun to play

[maiden meteor]

double lava beastfly bossfight

[past cypress]

I'd imagine it serves as a defense mechanism as well as a training area for PV

[zinc pivot]

Midway the chorus start trading silkflies

[past cypress]

Two Groals...

[maiden meteor]

Bile Beastfly

Groal is nasty but none can match magnificence of Beastfly

[dapper willow]

There is a boss doubler mod already
Have fun hehe

[low obsidian]

what do you think the lore explanation behind whatever the pantheon equivalent is gonna be

[mystic fiber]

also i had a theory. seeing how whitelady seems to be talking to hornet herself, not just hornet's memory of her

[maiden meteor]

WL is built different

[past cypress]

I think it's gonna be Hornet delving into her memories and then we get memoryception where we delve into someone's memory inside a memory

[maiden meteor]

she can use Dream Wifi

[ebon silo]

I think the lower cogwork areas just have trobbio

[ebon silo]

Bro has the Nintendo DS we are doomed 😭

[sleek pier]

idk if people actually figured it out but who is Herrah to GMS? She doesn't look like a weaver with the giant egg heads, and was apparently a common bug rather than some kind of respected being like the weavers

[dapper willow]

I dont know what to think of that
But its too vague to draw conclusions

[past cypress]

Trobbio is part of Whispering Vaults

[maiden meteor]

ah shit here we go again

[dapper willow]

I FORGOT ABOUT THE GOAT
Nevermind then

[maiden meteor]

Goated Trobbio fight when

[dapper willow]

Herra talk is controversial to say the least

[mystic fiber]

we can assume higher being can project themselves when others dream of them. then there's no pale king showing up in the dream. maybe pale king is truly dead and even lost his image in memory and dreams, or PK is alive but dont want to see hornet so he cloaked himself from hornet's dream

just a thought

[sleek pier]

And we do know weavers proper existed in Hallownest during Hornet's childhood, meaning weavers' appearance wasn't changed through generations at the time of Hornet's childhood (and Herrah's dreamer stuff)

[mystic fiber]

or maybe the projecting is just a whitelady thing, idk

[sleek pier]

so that makes herrah just a spider? rlly weird

[maiden meteor]

Maybe Hornet accidentally called WL while accessing memory

[maiden meteor]

naw she’s 100% weaver

Hornet is half-weaver

[sleek pier]

I don't think TC thought this whole hornet being half weaver half wyrm thing through...

[mystic fiber]

herrah is 100% weaver, she's like the widow but different body type

i mean without the ball shaped head

[sleek pier]

Her body just looks so different, and she does have a mask unlike Widow who had it removed

And like I said, the other weavers didn't have different appearances at this time, meaning they were still relatively pure

[maiden meteor]

be it retcon or not, who cares

[sleek pier]

I think it's just a plot hole we gotta close our eyes when it shows up

[past cypress]

Theories I've seen include

1. Herrah was fattening up for hibernation
2. Herrah got changed so she could bear children

[wintry flame]

red memory keeps being the worst section of the game by far #beastmode

[maiden meteor]

We won’t know until TC themselves tell us

[mystic fiber]

you've said it, it was a mask. the mask for dreamers. in hornet memory the mask is sort of unreal because she couldnt remember what herrah was like and could only think of the mask which is not her real look

[maiden meteor]

nuh uh

[wintry flame]

yeah it is

[sleek pier]

okay hold whoever came up with #2 actually cooked

[wintry flame]

long ass playable cutscene with very little done in the end right before the final boss

it chokes the game's pacing

[maiden meteor]

ah okay that one fair enough

Should’ve been Vespa fight

[wintry flame]

it's like "HEY LOOK GUYS HOLLOW KNIGHT CALLBACK"

[sleek pier]

her body changing to be able to have children is actually a great theory, I think that patches up the plothole nicely

[mystic fiber]

nah that's like ultra nostalgic bomb

[maiden meteor]

Nostalgia nuke

[mystic fiber]

was one of my favorite sections anyway

[sleek pier]

ngl tho red memory was probably one of the highlights of my playthrough

[maiden meteor]

What if they put entire PoP in red memory

[sleek pier]

we READ about hornet being raised by three queens but to actually see it in her memory is something else

[past cypress]

If you don't see the significance of "prove yourself more weaver than wyrm" and her talks with the three queens then that's just a you issue man

[mystic fiber]

i know TC is basically nostalgia farming but man, that was eight years of waiting

[wintry flame]

it's just kinda lame exposition

[mystic fiber]

it deserves it

[sleek pier]

As soon as I saw the wingsmoulds I got PTSD, never in a million years will I forget white palace for all the wrong reasons

[wintry flame]

the "hornet not wanting to be a ruler" was already explored in act 3

[maiden meteor]

tbf Knight scene would probably have even heavier impact without Red Memory nostalgia farming

[wintry flame]

i agree

honestly act III didn't need the abyss at all

[sleek pier]

Nah, I actually like that SS is a proper sequel, unlike some other games

[maiden meteor]

although I gotta admit Hornet reflecting on her past is kinda neat too

[sleek pier]

(tears of the kingdom is a disgrace to breath of the wild)

[dapper willow]

Bruh I loved red memory
It was so cool

[wintry flame]

!?

[mystic fiber]

the stagway sign

[maiden meteor]

hell naw you’re tweaking /j

[wintry flame]

i'm very critical of act 3 but only because of how it changes the game to feel a lot more like hollow knight thematically and atmospherically

[mystic fiber]

peak ngl