sk-lore

[normal pivot]

kngiht would Die

[knotty fractal]

Not if somehow they give him silk powers and overwrite the void

[normal pivot]

unles syou can get like. A new shell for them to sit in with their voidy goop

[azure dirge]

Knight staring at Hornet after Hornet saved him from the void. (He’s made of void)

[normal pivot]

Since they broke their old shell and mask and all that

[azure dirge]

Well no. Knight can survive outside of the Void.

Shades aren’t limited to it.

[normal pivot]

oh yeah i guess so
like all the siblings

[azure dirge]

Plus he’s the shadelord now.

[stuck berry]

ptsd from the delicate flower quest

[errant hare]

LOL

[knotty fractal]

A boss rush mode where we fight the hardest bosses and we think it ended and at last the knight in full void form appears

[azure dirge]

Even outside void knight is probably one of the most powerful entities in HK universe.

[errant hare]

delicate flower destroyed

The Knight: "I sense a disturbance in the force..."

[stuck berry]

the knight roaming around the void seeing that god damned flower again

[azure dirge]

Knight sensed a delicate flower not getting destroyed when your hit and was not happy.

“Your saying I could have just pulled it from a dream instead?”

[knotty fractal]

I also liked the bee area in the flashbacks

[errant hare]

The idea of Hornet using Elegy of the Deep in Hallownest is so fun to me

[knotty fractal]

Wish we coulda seen more

[errant hare]

Like she could probably talk to Vespa again that way

[azure dirge]

Yeah. Would’ve been cool if it were a boss fight.

[stuck berry]

hornet and the knight are the infiltrate memories brothers

[azure dirge]

Knight probably absorbed her essence though. So it’s probably not possible.

[knotty fractal]

Maybe they also like each other ?

[azure dirge]

That’s what Hornet essentially did with elegy of the deep, gathered the essence and condensed it into the hearts.

[azure dirge]

Yur one of those…

[knotty fractal]

Imagine half void half pure free hk3 lore

[errant hare]

On the one hand it is kinda ridiculous to think about how wildly inefficient the dream nail is as a means of harvesting power from Vespa (literally only 1 essence vs 1/3rd of the power of a pale higher being as seen with the hearts); on the other it makes sense since the Dream Nail isn't as good at bringing out the 'prime' of targets (the whole reason the godtuner was necessary) so it probably only retrieved what was left in the present.

The real question though is can Elegy of the Deep be used to invade THK's mind to reach the Radiance...

[azure dirge]

I think it’s also that the elegy of the deep gathered it all to one point whereas dream nail essentially gathered what was simply there. Elegy was also used on powerful dreams. The dream nail did give you access to those powerful dreams far more often than elegy does.

I think it’s more so that the hive just didn’t have much essence to it.

[stuck berry]

even if it could remember the knight had to call upon the entire void to kill her

[errant hare]

Oh yeah Hornet is a terrible matchup against Radiance agreed

[stuck berry]

while hornet has a connection to the void she can't channel it like her siblings did

[azure dirge]

I don’t think she actually does have a connection to the void

It’s like a common misconception.

[stuck berry]

familial connection

[azure dirge]

I also used to think she did.

[stuck berry]

affection

subjective conjecture

[azure dirge]

Hornet: “The void loves me.”
Shadelord: Looms intimidatingly

[royal elbow]

I think what Hornet did is more similar to what the Grim troupe did.
The Grim Troupe collected the "Nightmares" ( a subset of dreams ) to fuel the rebirth of Grim.

[azure dirge]

Yeah that’s a pretty accurate way to put it. It was even the dying embers of those fallen tribes.

It’s kinda a mix of the grim troupe ritual and the dream nail essence collection I think.

[errant hare]

The way these three methods of claiming dying power interact is an interesting subject for me

[royal elbow]

The theme of having to destroy the past in order to give the world a future is very present in both games.

[azure dirge]

Hornet did rekindle the dying power into what it was more towards it’s peak.

[errant hare]

Bc the essence in the Hive clearly was different from its nightmare flame as there's a troupemember stationed there

[azure dirge]

Yeah.

[errant hare]

But there's probably a limit to how much power you can extract via different methods till they conflict with each other

[azure dirge]

I think what grim does is the opposite of what Hornet was doing. Claiming the embers of future left in the carnage.

The Grimm troupe kinda seems like what it does is feed off of any remaining potential left.

The implications seemed to make it out to be a very bad thing.

[royal elbow]

Which is why I think dream nailing ghosts is probably neither good nor bad.
You're removing the memory that the person left behind, not literally absorbing their soul.
In the case of cloth it's probably pretty rude, as she was ready to move on regardless.

[azure dirge]

I don’t think it necessarily removes the memory, but gathers it.

Like the knight seems to carry the memories and essence with him after all.

[royal elbow]

But it seems clear that memories lingering does make it harder for the world to move on.

[knotty fractal]

Whats the lore behind the Harald mushroom btw ?

[azure dirge]

True. The built up essence does seem to cause some effects.

[normal pivot]

funny mushroom farts across the sky

[azure dirge]

He’s just the audience

[knotty fractal]

Is he just pointless watcher that travels kingomds

[azure dirge]

The camera. The fourth wall.

[noble ice]

What is this place? Why would such a bug collect it in Hunter's March?

[stuck berry]

he always comes either in the end of or during a significant turning point of a kingdom, like when hallownest is soon to be free or when pharloom is about to be freed

or when pharloom is going to be overtaken by the void

[azure dirge]

He’s a metaphor for the story and the watcher. He goes to watch stories, which often means he only shows up in a place experiencing great change or an ending of an age. Because that’s the only sort of thing a story is often centered around.

[knotty fractal]

[errant hare]

Think of it like a trophy room for successful hunts by that giant ant that guarded it.

[azure dirge]

That’s garr’s trophy room. Garr was going to make Hornet his last hunt and trophy, he lured you out on purpose to kill you.

[stuck berry]

i love how hornet can tell he's like a great philosopher but still doesn't know wtf is going on

[errant hare]

Hornet has some very interesting lines about the Master Herald/Mister Mushroom yeah

[stuck berry]

i killed five times as many great reeds as he did he ain't tough shit

[azure dirge]

There’s needolyn dialogue on the platform up top where there’s a blank space

[knotty fractal]

What if he is the master mind behind all of this lore with a goal in mind we will see in hk3

[weak briar]

unfortunately he tried too late in most people's playthroughs ended up being one of the last bosses everyone fought and died a horrible death

[stuck berry]

mister mushroom boss

[royal elbow]

The Herald observes the changing of the age. If you care he offers advice but does not intervene.
That's my interpretation.
He's also an Easter egg left by the Devs, obviously.

[noble ice]

I didn't play the tune there 🙁

[azure dirge]

No, he’s just a watcher. He says as such himself, he doesn’t know any more than the average person really he simply goes to see the changing of times.

[knotty fractal]

He could be lying and be the final villain

[errant hare]

Garr killing one of Karmelita's surviving elite guards is still wild to me lol like how spiteful or obsessed with the hunt do you gotta be

[stuck berry]

a watcher... during the edge of a kingdom's life...

[azure dirge]

He is an act 3 boss. Ironically he does stalk you throughout all of pharloom based on what we learn about him.

[stuck berry]

hollow knight: pablo's quest revolves around stopping the herald from nefarious deeds

[royal elbow]

That's like people theorising about M'aiq in Elder Scrolls.

[crisp flint]

whats going on in that room in the cradle where it mentions the dead bugs

[azure dirge]

I just wanna point out not even we find one of those guys anywhere to battle or while filling out our hunters journal lol.

[stuck berry]

those who came before

[crisp flint]

elaborate pls

[weak briar]

unfortunately for an act 3 boss he's easier than last judge and phantom

[crisp flint]

like it was something about weavers and dead choristors and reeds

[weak briar]

LOL

[azure dirge]

Yeah he’s not hard.

[knotty fractal]

Isnt every boss easy in act 3

[stuck berry]

ah i thought you meant another room lol

[azure dirge]

But I think that’s a consistent act 3 issue.

[stuck berry]

guy who hasn't met karmelita

[errant hare]

Karmelita and the final boss:

[normal pivot]

i just shat thumbtacks all over garr's floor and he died

[weak briar]

only Carmelita and the last boss are really hard

[crisp flint]

ye whats that about

[azure dirge]

By act 3 you have so much powerful stuff, and the hard bosses that would be in act 3 you can kill without as much difficulty in act 2

[knotty fractal]

I met her ye she was harder than all others

[stuck berry]

"here's a taste of your own medicine" headass

[azure dirge]

I heard void forge brothers are hard

[knotty fractal]

But she also has banger music so i didnt mind dying to her

[azure dirge]

But you can kill them pre act 3

[weak briar]

once you kill one of them the fight is won already

[errant hare]

I saw a post where someone hadn't fought Savage Beastfly rematch and it got voided and I think nothing has inspired more terror in me

[weak briar]

the lave waterfall doesn't provide enough of a challenge to make the other one hard

[azure dirge]

Yeah. Still harder than the other act 3 bosses.

[normal pivot]

voided savage beastfly is something i dont want to face myself

[azure dirge]

Probably. I wouldn’t know.

[weak briar]

ranking the 3 hardest act 3 bosses

[stuck berry]

those who follow grand mother silk bring different weavers from different lands to her

[weak briar]

1 final boss 2 Carmelita 3 .. idk who fits here

[azure dirge]

I think Seth is kinda hard.

[stuck berry]

most of these weavers are only in part like only weaver by their grand mother's side

[errant hare]

Oh would agree on Seth

[weak briar]

Seth and tormented trobbio are same tier

[stuck berry]

yeah seth gave me trouble

[azure dirge]

I’d agree.

[stuck berry]

i felt bad slashing at a kid with cancer

[crisp flint]

ah

[azure dirge]

Seth and Trobbio sort of counter a certain playstyle

[weak briar]

the hk fan had cancer huh

[azure dirge]

Seth has caused countless skongers great pain and suffering.

He is the true final boss.

In flea juggle and flea dodge.

[weak briar]

Carmelita caused many people to scream

but her music slaps

[stuck berry]

the entire game is trying to rewire that instinct to come at the boss and brute force slash

[azure dirge]

Karmelita gave me a bit of trouble. I don’t think she was overly hard though.

[weak briar]

once you counter her counters she's not so bad

[stuck berry]

hornet is a fragile speedster and the game will let you know the hard way

[weak briar]

btw the cross stitch you get from Phantom destroys her lol

[weak briar]

cause they can't counter your parry

[azure dirge]

Cross Stitch is great on most bosses

[stuck berry]

there are only two bosses which i didn't beat in the same sitting in which i first encountered them in, those being karmelita and lost lace

[weak briar]

one trick is to bait them counter you then you parry their counter

[normal pivot]

am i the only one that just sucks ass at timing cross stitch

[azure dirge]

Only one for me was groal because fuck bilewater

[weak briar]

once you fight the bosses enough you can time it well

[azure dirge]

It’s not for everyone.

[normal pivot]

i tend to do it too early and then i just get hit

[weak briar]

basically anyone who's good at Elden ring/ dark souls/ sekiro can do it

[normal pivot]

ive never played any of those myself

[stuck berry]

i found him after finding the wreath so he took me three tries even without the secret bench. mind you i did many many things in between those three tries

[azure dirge]

Trobbio has his immunity when he does a whirlwind and the whirlwind also removes all traps and makes him immune to them, then Seth has his shield and his explosion post attack, which reduces the windows you can attack him in with the nail a lot.

[crisp flint]

in the true ending was it the knight or the hollow knight that saved hornet, cause its horns were like the hollow knight but the rest of the body was different

[weak briar]

it's your brother.

[azure dirge]

I found the wreath after lol

[weak briar]

aka Little Ghost

[crisp flint]

ah

[stuck berry]

the knight

[weak briar]

the MC of the first game

[normal pivot]

i only ever found wreath after i had alr explored basically the entirety of bilewater and ducts

[azure dirge]

It was shadelord knight yuh

[stuck berry]

in all subsequent playthroughs i'm deffo getting the wreath before bilewater

[azure dirge]

Same.

[knotty fractal]

Groat saved horned in true ending

[stuck berry]

well it's ambigious how much the embrace the void ending is canon

[azure dirge]

I was so pissed. Then I told my friends it existed and to go to ducts first.

[weak briar]

funnily enough in later playthroughs the bilewater path of pain won't trouble you anymore.

[knotty fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/fortnite-gif-4169442390448293969

[azure dirge]

Shadelord appears. Even the attack to save Hornet was the shadelord one not the dnm one.

[weak briar]

it's implied he doesn't have full control of the void yet

[normal pivot]

i mean shadelord appears for like 1 frame

[weak briar]

but eventually he will

[knotty fractal]

Why does groat attack hornet btw ? Dont we have the same goal

[azure dirge]

And?

[normal pivot]

stinky man

[stuck berry]

groal hates weavers since their mom destroyed his land

[azure dirge]

The void itself is vast after all, and acts on instinct. Even shadelord is simply all of the shades having been focused into a single entity.

Insanely strong though. Bro literally crawls out of the dream world.

[weak briar]

void needs someone to control ir

without any shadelords Nearby it devours everything

[weak briar]

little ghost is the strongest being in HK for now

esp after getting void powers

[azure dirge]

When exposed to soul at least. Otherwise it remains tranquil. I wonder if you gather enough soul if the void would rise up high enough to consume kingdoms.

[azure dirge]

Yeah, I mean he was compared to the masters in strength with just void charm.

[weak briar]

with full power of the void I think he's on par with Pale king

or stronger

[azure dirge]

Shadelord even outside the void is probably insanely strong.

[stuck berry]

i like that after all the intrigue and suspense of the embrace the void ending what happened next was the shades kinda just went back to the abyss the end

[azure dirge]

I’d say probably stronger.

[weak briar]

what if he doesn't need to be outside the void to use the void

so basically he's much stronger

even outside the void he can use it probably

[still summit]

Can someone help me understand, did the pale king ever go to pharloom? If so, how?

[weak briar]

maybe even by a lot lol

[azure dirge]

He doesn’t need to be in it I think to use it. Seems like he can manifest it within the dream realm to some extent too. But within the void he may be impossibly stronger is what I mean.

[stuck berry]

no

[knotty fractal]

Pale king did nothing wrong ..

No benches that cost money

[weak briar]

so outside he's already almost infinitely strong but within it he's a god lol

[stuck berry]

they mention him because he is hornet's dad and that's it

[azure dirge]

Like, in the void or near the void the shadelord would probably be impossible to defeat.

[normal pivot]

pale king more like. puking

[weak briar]

shadelord little ghost in the void is like infinitely stronger than everything else in Hk1 combined lol

[azure dirge]

The only counter would be everblooms. Which, only grow properly in one place from what we know.

[weak briar]

that's his tier

[still summit]

Aah ok. But how do they know about his existence? Since Herrah only knows about him after she goes to Hallownest?

[weak briar]

Nah, still impossible. Void lace Is weaker than Shadelord little ghost and can penetrate everblooms

[azure dirge]

If it were knight he could have probably straight up killed gms.

[weak briar]

so little ghost won't even be affected by it

[stuck berry]

she just looks pale being half pale being and all they can tell

[weak briar]

probably lol

[stuck berry]

racially profiling her

[azure dirge]

Lace was simply being covered by void constantly due to the soul in her silk, there is an ending where everbloom straight up evaporates shadelord.

[stuck berry]

also it's not unreasonable to assume hallownest at least recieved some renown elsewhere

[weak briar]

ah okay then

[still summit]

Got it

[weak briar]

it has that's why hornet says no matter what she's a daughter of hallownest

[azure dirge]

The everbloom is also seen as like, a bad omen too which is weird despite warding off the void.

[stuck berry]

she says that because she objectively is

[weak briar]

she is a princess right?

[stuck berry]

for the longest time hallownest's only protector and de-facto ruler

[weak briar]

technically

[stuck berry]

she is yeah

[azure dirge]

Wyrms are also legendary beings. PK wasn’t the only wyrm, just one of the few to mingle with lesser beings.

[weak briar]

hollow knight Princesssong

[stuck berry]

what is the criteria for being a disney princess because hornet could fill it

[weak briar]

loved by animals

[trim lark]

be made by disney

[stuck berry]

friend to animal saves the day thst sort of thing

[weak briar]

very cute and pretty

[stuck berry]

bellbeast check

[azure dirge]

So bell beast makes Hornet a Disney Princess now

[weak briar]

kinda actually

also hornet is loved by the good bugs.

so she also fulfils the other criteria.

[stuck berry]

honestly i can't name a non-villain character who dislikes her aside from cardnius but he's old

[azure dirge]

It’s actually kinda funny how often Hornet obsesses over fluffy creatures in the hunters journal

[weak briar]

cardnius hates everyone

[azure dirge]

Cardnius is just grumpy I think.

[weak briar]

hornet loves the fluffy fat bellbeasts in bellhart

lol

[azure dirge]

Fluffy enemies tierlist

[stuck berry]

big and soft, a fantastic combination ruined by it's haunted aggression

[weak briar]

that one is the best

[azure dirge]

“It would be nice if they weren’t so aggressive :(“

It’s either the spines or the aggression every time

[weak briar]

she is actually cute

[stuck berry]

"i'd keep this one as a pet if it could survive in warmer climates"

she probably got that admiration from growing up in the hive

hornet x hive knight real??

[azure dirge]

Lol

One good thing about playing Hornet is that she does have a lot more personality and interaction in the world.

[stuck berry]

you ought to play nine sols the main characer is great

[azure dirge]

Knight is cool and all, but he was not very expressive or knowledgeable. Absolute gigachad though.

[stuck berry]

well defined personality full character arc and backstory

[azure dirge]

I have it, I hate parrying though.

[weak briar]

better than Ghost of Yotei

[stuck berry]

growing up is realizing not all protagonists have to be silent

[stuck berry]

how are you playing a soulslike-adjacent game while hating parrying

[azure dirge]

I think it’s interesting when a character is chosen to be silent when they don’t have to be, or if they still have some level of characterization despite being silent.

[azure dirge]

I am very good at dodging.

[stuck berry]

joker p5, chell portal, link botw

[azure dirge]

Lea from CrossCode

[stuck berry]

i think my 9sols experience helped me vibe with cross slash immediately

[azure dirge]

Red, even the tarnished from elden ring.

Cross Slash is one of the few parries I’ve liked. I also like the parry deflect mechanic of HK and SK.

[stuck berry]

hollow knight and sollow knight

[azure dirge]

Skong

https://tenor.com/view/a-true-skonger-hornet-silksong-silkpost-animal-instinct-gif-2410519712820608891

[dapper willow]

parry is such an aura farming move
like the regular parry

[maiden meteor]

Mister Freeeeeemannn

[teal drift]

I like it when the character doesnt talk because IM meant to be the tiny bug who is secretly the child of two gods.

[timber wharf]

Does voltnest have any known lore? It's such a pretty lil' area

[radiant smelt]

the citadel tried incorporating it in the memorium

[dapper willow]

the coral became so furious it started shocking everyone for destroying the land
/jk

[radiant smelt]

also the citadel uses its electricity to power parts of it maybe ?

[molten parcel]

Rewatching first silksong trailer i noticed we see one of the abyss enemies using Purple attacks instead of black, probably to avoid spoiler

[mint furnace]

Technically everyone is void

Which is the funniest way to make it canon, w team cherry

[next solar]

Lore spoilers analysis ahead:

My biggest Lore tidbit I like about Silksong is that the Curse is a blood curse. I’ve forgotten the area where this lore is given but it is stated that the Curse can be passed down from parent to child.

My first thought was this was obviously a metaphor for religion, the fact that religions are typically passed down through lineage and Silksong is all about religion.

Secondly it’s a metaphor for those environmentally induced disorders. We know that industrialization wrecking the environment can cause so much damage that it affects the actual DNA of the people affected by the pollution, leading to them passing down birth defects into their offspring from damaged DNA.

Silksong is about industrialization and the curse is born from the industrialization so it kinda works as a metaphor for pollution being able to affect the offspring of the people polluted.

[fierce jasper]

ye

[zinc pivot]

It’s an interesting way to approach the meta narrative of silksong
Though that might be giving TC too much credit

[next solar]

Do you remember where it’s stated that the Silk curse can be passed from a parent to child. I’ve genuinely forgotten where I read this and yet I vividly remember this is as a big lore drop that the Citadel implanted silk into the masses and then the silk passed their children

[zinc pivot]

‘sides, the weaver ‘curse’ is something they got after GMS evolved them from Pharlids

[zinc pivot]

It was during a dialogue between Hornet and Eva

[fierce jasper]

whiteward?

[next solar]

Also it’s interesting how much “Child” is brought up in this story. From Shakra calling Hornet a child to Hornet calling Lace a child

[zinc pivot]

*Lace

Silksong has a running theme of motherhood, and maturity

[royal elbow]

I think it's Hornet conversation with the caretaker?
The bugs of the citadel stuffed their shells with silk to extend their lifespan.
This makes them and their offspring ( the pilgrims) susceptible to the curse.

[zinc pivot]

Wow i really went off track then, I rarely call the haunting a curse

[royal elbow]

It's described as a silken curse I believe.

[summer mauve]

*Doctor
The Gman may well be an interdimensional cryptic, but he was always respectful

[next solar]

I mean to me the pharloom silk curse seemed almost too similar to the Hallownest Radiance curse until this dialogue. The fact that the Pharloom curse started as simply an infection that got stronger as it passed down generations seems intentional

Like I think Team cherry themselves must have known how similar the “curses” were, especially since they were both from “higher beings”. So I think it was by design that the Pharloom curse should be able to pass down through generations that differentiates it from the original hollo knight

[summer mauve]

I don't think the cursed citizens of Pharloom are dead either. At least, not all of them. There's a sense that the curse can be lifted. In HallowNest, it felt like once the radiance was banished, all the shambling husks would drop where they stood

[whole holly]

hey everyone

i have theory that Palestag is basically dream/essence boss, we know memories are inherently tied to dreams and Needolin and Dream Nail are most likely different methods of accessing Dreams/Mind of Bug or memory

since Palestag likely never existed and was myth made real, it was most likely made by imaginations of bugs, like Grey Prince Zote

since it is not actual memory but rather imagination of legend, it materialized by bugs minds

Essence very likely exists in Pharloom because it is present everywhere bugs minds and Higher Beings are present, Hornet very likely can't see it way knight can because she lacks dream nail, which is useful for seeing essence/dreams

Radiance is also kept alive by being remembered, so it might mean that Memory of Her and Ability to dream is very tied and Dreams and Memory have connection with Essence

Palestag is myth that simply is imagined and remembered, game states this by saying it is memory of legend that never existed, so it can only be Essence construct

Needolin gives us limited Access to Dreams/memories, Silk clearly can't produce memories of Palestag because we know Silk constructs (lace, eva, phantom) are physical and Essence Constructs aren't

only thing silk has to do with memories that Needolin ability uses it

only reason why some memories look like they have silk in them is because memories and dreams can effectively look like anything

[timber wharf]

its the caretaker that says this after you venture into the whiteward I think

[ebon silo]

Broski the radiance is dead

there is no essence at all

[terse warren]

Nightmare Heart

[icy aurora]

I think the snail shamans of silksong say that the memories reside within the soul, and silk is created from soul
whether or not that means the memories are made of essense, I'm not sure tbh

[whole holly]

i know that, i am just making comparison

[ebon silo]

that's a completely different topic those are a separate kind of essence

[whole holly]

radiance isn't only source of essence

[terse warren]

It's still essence

[ebon silo]

the dream realm if I remember was split in half for the dream and nightmare

[terse warren]

"There is no essence at all" is just wrong

[terse warren]

That's a fan theory with no evidence, actually

[ebon silo]

Yeah I shouldn't worded that better

And really a fan theory? Didn't know that considering how widespread it was but cool

[terse warren]

Also like

Silk doesn't stop existing when GMS dies

No reason for Essence to stop existing once Radiance dies

The Beacon was still there when PK died after all

[whole holly]

i didn't know that, but o don't think memory of palestag is made from soul itself

[ebon silo]

Mmm fair enough but it would be a limited type of resource?

[royal elbow]

I don't think higher beings are the source of the substance they are associated with.

[whole holly]

not really, Dream Essence still exists without radiance, Unn dreamt up Mosskin and all foliage in Greenpath

[terse warren]

Well they definitely work differently so I doubt

[terse warren]

That's true

However that IS the case for GMS (and PK's Beacon)

[royal elbow]

Though GMS is worded that way, it's probably more metaphorically.

[terse warren]

...no?

[whole holly]

every Higher Being has confirmed links with Essence other than GMS

[icy aurora]

I believe the idea was that you can enter memories through silk because of its connection to soul and "manipulate" or "interact" with things as they were at the time

hence why you can physically retrieve the Everbloom through Hornet's memory

[terse warren]

There is no metaphorical way to interpret it lol

[royal elbow]

So Hornet is now unable to generate silk?

[zinc pivot]

Silk is the Primal source of silk
She isn’t the primordial concept of silk or anything

[terse warren]

Primal Source doesn't mean it dies with her

She made all of it, and she gave the Weavers the power to make it as well

[terse warren]

PK and WL not really tbh?

[whole holly]

Palestag is most likely made from essence, most similar thing to exist is grey prince zote, he is made into god by bretta using dream/imagination/essence

[terse warren]

And Lord of Shades

[royal elbow]

So she's the first to turn Soul into Silk.

[terse warren]

Well yes but she's the only one that can do it

Also she IS Silk

[royal elbow]

The White palace is in the dream realm, with pale white essence particles floating about.

[whole holly]

LoS is fair point, and Pale King and White Lady still have connection even if it is weak, Pale King has his own light , White Lady can sense when her mind is read by dream nail so limited connection but still

[terse warren]

I don't think the memories are made of Essence in this case maybe

[terse warren]

Seers followed PK, they could've helped him hide in the Dream Realm

[terse warren]

Other characters can do that too though, can't they

[whole holly]

i mean Memories share every trait with Dream Realm excluding visibly seeing Dream Particles

[terse warren]

Also, Light isn't associated with Essence, GMS has Light for example

[terse warren]

Well but I don't really see how exactly you connect Essence with all of it since it's just not there

[flint wadi]

ghost was able to see essence particles before getting dreamnail, which means it is observable to the naked eye therefore hornet couldnt see any essence in pharloom cause it just wasnt there

[terse warren]

Wait fr?

[edgy nebula]

Can back this up, khann’s needolin dialogue specifically mentions pale light

[flint wadi]

dreamers attacking ghost post hornet 1 for example

[terse warren]

Well.

Widow cutscene.

[whole holly]

Pale King's white palace is in dream realm, which is connection, he was beacon of sapience which is tied to Essence although not confirmed

[flint wadi]

essence particles loud and clear there

[zinc pivot]

The thing is, that is them directly confronting ghost

[terse warren]

In what way is the Beacon tied to Essence tho

[zinc pivot]

So the concentration gotta be really high

[terse warren]

Also I already said White Palace can be explained by Seers helping PK

[whole holly]

well, knight and hornet are different, knight is child of two higher beings hollowed out by void so it makes sense for him to perceive it better than hornet

[terse warren]

Not at all though

It is said exactly nowhere that higher beings that are hollowed out are better at seeing essence

[flint wadi]

perhaps, but we do still have an example of ghost in a dream with observable particles without dreamnail (right before acquiring it)

this stands to reason that all dreams are essence filled generally, which makes the lack of it in silksongs memories distinctly makes them their own thing

[whole holly]

he expanded minds of bugs, bugs with stronger minds usually have more complex dreams, expanded mind is expanded capacity of dreaming

[terse warren]

This is quite a lot of reaching

[royal elbow]

The radiance calls you her ancient enemy or something doesn't she?
I think void and essence being opposed is not too far a reach.

[terse warren]

She's talking about Vessels (most likely)

[whole holly]

in fact vessels are stated to have no mind to dream meaning, less intelligent being hollowed by void would have no capacity of dreaming, and Pale King expanded minds of bugs

[terse warren]

No mind to THINK, not dream

[zinc pivot]

This is getting too baseless

[flint wadi]

idk if essence died with radiance cause like 50% of hallownests HB's dabbled in it

[zinc pivot]

Present evidence that can suggest it

[royal elbow]

Vessels are sort of recent all things considered.
Radiance and ancient civilisation might have clashed before...

[flint wadi]

seems more like a fundamental force if anything

[whole holly]

well that could be explained by hornet's and knight's different nature, with hornet only being half of higher being

[terse warren]

Also, like, you just went against your own point??

If they can't dream why did you say that them being hollowed out would make it easier for them to perceive essence

[zinc pivot]

Essence could be a meta material, one that makes up reality

[plush spoke]

Is green prince's partner a dude?

[zinc pivot]

Yes them gay dancers

[terse warren]

They're really not that recent

Stag stations were already shut down before Elderbug was born

[plush spoke]

Oh I didn't know that

[whole holly]

no mind to dream is directly stated in game? we can conclude expanding minds of bugs would increase capacity of dreaming

[terse warren]

It literally isn't

[zinc pivot]

Think.

[flint wadi]

this just feels like a reach, seeing essence is not exclusive to higher beings and ghost is not really considered one either

[terse warren]

I've literally said it was think before you're just ignoring messages you don't like

[whole holly]

oh i forgot, lol

[terse warren]

TK isn't a HB till LoS

[zinc pivot]

Also you can’t say that when a fucking statue of zote has a dream

[flint wadi]

yeah theyre gay

[flint wadi]

mhm, im talking about ghost as they are generally without godmaster

[whole holly]

i didn't see it

[terse warren]

Lord of Shades isn't the Godmaster guy

Lord of Shades is DnM

[whole holly]

achieved by mind of Bretta, it is conjured by mind of lonely

[flint wadi]

right, okay

[terse warren]

Lord of Shades is Knight with Void Heart, actually

[zinc pivot]

So we call Godmaster Knight God of Void then

[flint wadi]

yeah alright, it is foreshadowed in the game without godmaster and it specifically more about uniting void

[zinc pivot]

Or god of shades

[terse warren]

Void Given Focus

[zinc pivot]

Mouthful

[terse warren]

VGFocus

[flint wadi]

VGF

[plush spoke]

Where did y'all find the source tho

[flint wadi]

void girlfriend

[terse warren]

Void Given Form

[zinc pivot]

Vessel get fuvked

[flint wadi]

are you fr :

[plush spoke]

I'm just curious

[terse warren]

In the game

[plush spoke]

[terse warren]

Journal entry, literally every dialogue with Green Prince, literally all of Verdania

[flint wadi]

okay one: they look identical (same species)
two: both make male grunts in clover dances
3: "all bowed before the princes green" GP exclaimed in one of lost verdania dialogues

[whole holly]

hallownest Higher Beings have heightened connection to essence though, regular bugs can't see dreams, hornet is basically regular bug with only having one half of higher being lineage, compared to knight being born of Wyrm, Root and Void(void does respond to radiance's scream in one cutscene, radiance is dream being so it eliminates void physically hearing actual voice, it should be purely metaphysical)

[flint wadi]

and yeah journal entries too

[terse warren]

Hornet is called a Higher Being by Zi, actually

[pliant meadow]

They're also called 'dual princes' by the hunter's journal

[flint wadi]

mhm

[plush spoke]

Ah ok

[flint wadi]

like to ask where the source is so silly to me its literally right before your eyes

[plush spoke]

I didn't pay attention 😔

[flint wadi]

happens

[terse warren]

Yeah that tracks with the average hollow knight fan

[plush spoke]

[flint wadi]

ok vgfocus it is
so both are lords of shades just one is enchanced with godseekers focus

[terse warren]

Yes

DnM is VGForm EtV is VGFocus

[flint wadi]

sotv being ambiguous is still going strong very good

[terse warren]

lol yes

Watch TC make it not ambiguous and give us a voided out Godhome exclusively to justify a fight with TK

TK or VGFocus or VGForm

[whole holly]

i specified everything in exact way that makes your reply redundant to what i am stating, Notable Hallownest Higher Beings all have some connection to dreams , Hornet having only wyrm's blood compared to knight being born of wyrm and root and void should mean decreased connection to Essence for hornet and increased to knights

[flint wadi]

i see the fanservice point now

[terse warren]

Told yaaaaa

[edgy barn]

I will get mad if Hornet can fight VGFocus and win

[terse warren]

Fan service isn't always bad but

It often is bad

[terse warren]

Oh no yeah like I'd write a strongly worded letter to TC

[terse warren]

Only fanservice that was done well in this game tbh was Snail Shamans

My goats could never fail me

[terse warren]

Hornet was also born of Weavers that's a strong lineage

Also you never said "notable"

You just said Hallownest Higher Beings, which Hornet is part of

[trim lark]

hi what are we loring today

[errant hare]

Do we have any strong evidence for Herrah being 100% vs 50% Weaver? Since the Cradle entries show that even if a bug is x% Weaver, they're still referred to as such, and there's the whole different-appearance deal.

[whole holly]

i disagree, Shaman had stated in one game that his kind never though to look to void/abyss as source of power, in knight's soul spell void upgrades

[terse warren]

Oh I agree

I'm just saying their presence was done well

Like, it was actually foreshadowed they were Snails

[edgy barn]

Hornet is confirmed half weaver

[terse warren]

Them being interested in Void now is def a retcon but I like the idea so idm it

[trim lark]

i wonder if anyone predicted that the chapel maiden or caretaker were shamans during the trailers

[whole holly]

upgraded by GMS which has no confirmed connection to void, and Hornet is exception, i mean every other god in hallownest, maybe hornet later ascended to that status after events of game, i don't know it what context does steel seer call hornet higher being so

[spark valve]

hornet is 50% weaver
pk is 0% weaver
so herrah must be 100% weaver

[zinc pivot]

Mossbag

[trim lark]

fr?

[royal elbow]

I wondered the same. I assumed Herrah was half weaver and half beast ( midwife/stalking devout type spider ), but the lore piece you collect near the bridge confirms hornet is half.

[pliant meadow]

It's really just that Hornet is called a 'half-spawn' and not a 'quarter-spawn' (by first sinner btw)

[zinc pivot]

Yeah, he made comparison to the snail shaman in hk

[terse warren]

Hornet is called Higher Without being upgraded by anything

[whole holly]

maybe Weaver line is so notable that Herrah's percentage doesn't matter and still consider hornet half weaver(i personally don't believe this but it is possibility)

[whole holly]

can you still mention full context/sentence?

[pliant meadow]

I mean ig it could be possible...?

[spark valve]

it's not

[edgy barn]

Hornet IS higher than most bugs, which is how I interprent that line rather than it being confirmation of Hornet being a full on proper Higher Being

[terse warren]

Just Act 3

Read any dialogue from Zi she always calls Hornet "You Higher"

[spark valve]

weavers who aren't half weaver are called weaver in quarter or eighth part. hornet is called weaver in half part

[royal elbow]

I did wonder why Herrah was considered a common beast compared to her noble first husband.

[spark valve]

yes, it's either that, having an independent will, something along those lines

[zinc pivot]

Because she was an immigrant and therefore not considered high caste

Is what i believe

[whole holly]

she calls her Bug Higher and Creature higher, not higher being

[terse warren]

Breaking news Pale King is now not a creature anymore

[royal elbow]

Maybe, still I would have thought that the spiders of deepnest would recognise how powerful weavers truly are.
Well the king at least did ( probably)

[zinc pivot]

Why arguing semantic, higher is already enough

[whole holly]

legendary way to misrepresent my comment

[terse warren]

Yeah I guess Hornet being called Pale Bug means she's not a Pale Being anymore uh

Because those are 2 completely different words

[edgy barn]

Are you actually arguing that Hornet is a higher being or just that Zi calls her one, I don't really get it.

[terse warren]

Hornet is definitely some kind of Higher Being

[whole holly]

because semantics are important in this discussion, full context is needed

[spark valve]

For that to be true higher being would become a comedically useless category

[terse warren]

This all started with someone saying that Hornet can't see Essence without Dream Nail because she "isn't a higher being"

[zinc pivot]

How about we lapse back to the first instance of higher being called as such

[whole holly]

i never claimed they were mutually exclusive, do you consider Palestag pale being?

[terse warren]

Void Heart also became a comedically useless item so I don't think that's impossible

[gusty tapir]

shes aware of being in godhome and has pale king and weaver as parents, so there is no doubt about that

[edgy barn]

Yeah she is a higher than most bugs. She's a Weaver-Wyrm hybrid which comes with nice things like eternal life and Silk. But the story clearly makes a distinction between her and actual gods like GMS

[spark valve]

That doesn’t make her a higher being

[terse warren]

I consider Palestag fake

[whole holly]

half higher being, half ascended bug

[royal elbow]

The snail shamans call GMS her pale kin. I assume that means they are both pale beings. All other pale beings are higher beings.
So Hornet is a higher being. A demigod essentially.

[terse warren]

Vessels are Pale but not Higher

[whole holly]

so just because it is fake it can't be Pale Being? where is that stated? great way to avoid question, do you consider Palestag pale being or not?

[royal elbow]

Vessels are like triple god.
Even if not in power. They all got the potential at least.

[spark valve]

Hornet isn’t a higher being either she’s not more powerful than vessels

[edgy barn]

If Vessels aren't higher neither is Hornet

[flint wadi]

its dubbed pale in gp's memory but it doesnt really mean anything if the creature itself never existed

[terse warren]

I told you I think Palestag isn't even real so it doesn't matter

And yeah, if it doesn't exist it can't be Pale

The hypothetical Legend made real by Green Prince's mind is probably Pale

[gusty tapir]

okay tho, i wonder about one and if there is an answet to that, how did hornet get caught in a first place, and what happened to hallownest since godhome ending is cannon, the one where shade lord escapes, anyone has any ideas?

[spark valve]

A palestag existed but the one we fight is mythologized

[terse warren]

P sure there is no outright source it existed

[spark valve]

It existed but it didn’t look or behave like that

[spark valve]

The green prince reports having hunted it

[terse warren]

The Green Prince also can't remember his own house

He might be misremembering

[whole holly]

but whether of not. Palestag is pale being can still be debated, i am saying that everything pale is not automatically pale being, Aubergine Parmesan is arguing otherwise

[spark valve]

There’s an immense difference between not remembering the intricacies of a place and making something up completely that never happened at all

[flint wadi]

there had to be something that insured the princes' rule, them hunting down a difficult beast as proof of their right to rule probably happened

[terse warren]

Dancing tbh

[spark valve]

Especially something so pivotal as to be the foundation of their rule

[whole holly]

everything called pale and higher is automatically higher and pale being, to them atleast

[flint wadi]

i think gp is just romanticizing reality not making shit up completely

[ebon silo]

I have some crazy ass idea y'know how karmelita has that spike ability from the ground? I feel like that only happens because of the ants below the ground like immediately push the spikes on where karmelita wants it to be

[flint wadi]

^

[terse warren]

Yes? At least in part

[flint wadi]

palestag wasnt pale or ethereal like that but it probably existed in some part as a difficult beast to hunt down

something the princes managed to do and got acclaimed for

[terse warren]

Inb4 Pale Stag was just a Clover Stag with a neck slightly longer than normal

[royal elbow]

I think Dream no more and Godhome both could be considered canon.
I'd say that the lord shade simply retreated to the abyss after escaping the godseeker dream.
Other than that the current state of hallownest is probably intentionally kept vague.

[flint wadi]

maybe yeah

[terse warren]

And Albino ig

[whole holly]

so is Palestag pale being, it is called pale touched? (whether or not it existed is irrelevant) answer in yes or no

[flint wadi]

it was a first clover stag maybe

[royal elbow]

Pale Lurker is a pale being?!?!?

[terse warren]

I already said yes, the DREAM one is, the one we only see in dream

[terse warren]

Ah fuck

[royal elbow]

I am joking.

[gusty tapir]

cant wait for hollow knight 3 where lace travels to hallownest

[flint wadi]

opening a whole can of worms

[terse warren]

Who the hell even remembers that guy

[gusty tapir]

see you all in 2038

[flint wadi]

that girl* actually

[whole holly]

it is still great point against her

[terse warren]

Hollow Knight: Shoelace

[terse warren]

Ad Hominem fallacy crawling out of the ground like a devil rn

[gusty tapir]

and we will be shoeposting on a slace subreddit, cant wait for big shoesanity arc again

[whole holly]

Pale Lurker disproves you entirely

[terse warren]

Pale Lurker shouldn't be taken seriously

[gusty tapir]

bro only holds simple key, they are useless frfr

[flint wadi]

what does it even mean to be pale, game just added another deity to the roster and didnt really elaborate on what makes pale beings pale besides urge for conquest and devotion i guess

[whole holly]

what does any fallacy have to do with it , you yourself agued that every pale or higher bug is Pale or Higher Being, i am simply testing your own logic

[flint wadi]

and "pale light" ofc

[terse warren]

Palestag can teleport and spawn blades outta nowhere call me back when Pale Lurker has ONE feat

[royal elbow]

He can run very fast.

[zinc pivot]

Destroy eardrums

[royal elbow]

Or she?

[terse warren]

Well I clearly didn't remember Pale Lurker and didn't consider her

[whole holly]

because it invalidates your arguments and goes against your narrative?

[edgy barn]

Well she was champion of the colloseum once

[terse warren]

Because she cannot even begin to match to anything else that's called Pale in this game

[gusty tapir]

they can throw out traps that resemble saws kinda, and we know that saws are clear indication of pale king

[whole holly]

well, it is great that you realize everything pale isn't pale being

[flint wadi]

she* ffs

[terse warren]

I never said that

[whole holly]

yet it is still called pale

[flint wadi]

ss lore i remember youre misgenderings

[terse warren]

I specifically said that Vessels are Pale but not Higher

[cobalt coyote]

So pale lurkers a higher being?

[terse warren]

I'm gonna jump

[whole holly]

so sorry , Pale Being

[gusty tapir]

me when im slightly inconvenienced

[royal elbow]

Pale Lurker and palestag are both on the far right part of the map, coincidence?

[terse warren]

Me when I spend more than 5 minutes in this channel tbh

[gusty tapir]

great nick

[terse warren]

Needed one

[gusty tapir]

also based for furina

[flint wadi]

damn its 8 years now

[terse warren]

8 years and a half between every game tbh

Well in that case it should be 34

But 33 or 32 look nicer

[gusty tapir]

right, why didnt hornet take pale flower from the knight, is she stupid? ||didnt she know she will need it in million years?||

[terse warren]

True

[whole holly]

me when i can't back up my own arguments

[cobalt coyote]

Also what was your point on palestag being a pale being?

Why can i only see messages and not type them i am being silenced by my internet

[terse warren]

Didn't you say "No mind to dream" instead of "No mind to think"

[flint wadi]

true isnt she half wyrm dont these have foresight and stuff

[royal elbow]

Because it's fragile and breaks if someone passes gas near it.

[gusty tapir]

slowmode

[cobalt coyote]

I typed this out Like 4 Mins ago

[terse warren]

We got hit 7 billion times and the flower doesn't break what's TK's excuse

[gusty tapir]

she just doesnt need to be hit smh my head

[terse warren]

Why were Ze'mer's flowers so shit

[gusty tapir]

^

[whole holly]

sorry i confused two things, that is so much worse than calling everything Pale, pale being , i apologize, i am going to worship pale lurker and Palestag now

[gusty tapir]

bro smuggled bad product through borders

its like fent to heroin

[terse warren]

1st of all I just forgot about Pale Lurker 2nd of all it's not that deep dog just let it go

[flint wadi]

okay yeah can we just move on

[whole holly]

is Lifeblood m*th?

[gusty tapir]

yes

[flint wadi]

why yes now that we have silksong

[gusty tapir]

clear breaking bad refrence

[whole holly]

calm down, i was just making joke, light humor

[cobalt coyote]

The radiance infections are caused by shrooms

[gusty tapir]

heavy end of breaking bad spoilers ||where walt dies because of blue and jesse takes so much blue he becomes blue itself||

[whole holly]

i didn't mean to invalidate you, we both made mistakes, what's why it is important to forgive them

[ebon silo]

Song queen of the Skarr and their most talented warrior.
This graceful ruler once possessed skill to rival my own. At her youthful peak, her voice united all Skarr in her service.

It's crazy how prime karmelita could actually rival current hornet

And she had the ability to repel the haunting for a long period only lost because she grew tired and old

[terse warren]

We

We fight her at her peak

That's what we do in the memory

[terse warren]

No she did not the haunting barely started, she was already old by then

[edgy barn]

She did tho

[gusty tapir]

sherma is more powerful, he is young and doesnt get haunting aids

jerma*

[terse warren]

They mean for all the Skarrs not just for herself

[cobalt coyote]

Thought you meant she didnt get AIds at first

[hallow marten]

True to the lore and true the to gameplay. I spent 2 hours in that battle lol

[cobalt coyote]

I spent way too long

[edgy barn]

...that's even more impressive?

[terse warren]

I'm saying she was never able to do such a thing

Which is what they are claiming she can do

And that she only lost the ability to do it because she got old

Which is impossible because she was already old before the haunting started

[gusty tapir]

why couldnt karmelita remember herself in a diplomatic mood and just let hornet talk it out smh my head

[flint wadi]

yeah and hornet aknowledges her as a formiddable force to reckon with

[edgy barn]

Yeah I suppose that is a more reasonable interpretation of that dialogue

[terse warren]

Im pretty sure "uniting the Skarrs under her service" just means she got those dipshits to obey her because of how good at singing she was (not literally but you get what I mean)

[royal elbow]

Ok, but why does Hornet kill the Green Prince ( if she already has 3 hearts )
And why do we display the poor lads heart like a trophy?

[gusty tapir]

ants operate on feromones so she smells nice

[terse warren]

Hornet is an ass

[gusty tapir]

for the love of the game

[terse warren]

"Leave me to mourn"

[gusty tapir]

she HATES the gays (joke pls dont ban)

[lean fog]

wrong chat I swear I was in discussion

[edgy barn]

This is not really Silksong related but I find it really funny how some people take the Moss Prophet as his word and say that the infection is the result of resisting Radiance/the memory of her when the guy is not only infected himself, he ends up dying from it alongside all his followers.

[gusty tapir]

congrats on beating bilewater boss either way tho

[lean fog]

he’s preaching to other infected bugs so essentially radiance is preaching to herself

[gusty tapir]

slowly getting through steel soul myself and im not looking forward to it

admitedly i am cheesing it with skull mask and quiting the game as soon as it breaks, but im too employed to play it without cheesing

[lean fog]

honestly steel soul shouldn’t be too hard as long as you don’t get wombo comboed whoops 4 masks gone

[gusty tapir]

"wombo combo" bump into enemy get hit by attack

[lean fog]

hit by 2x damage attack fall in lava

[terse warren]

Steel Soul and Speedrun achievements shouldn't exist and I'm saying this as someone that's got all of em

Artificial Difficulty is stupid

[hallow marten]

Maybe she was never "diplomatic", just a singer in a tribe of hunters. Since Hornet needed her heart in its stronger form, she just remembered her prime

[gusty tapir]

speedrun achivs are fun imo

[terse warren]

I agree but they still shouldn't exist

[gusty tapir]

steel soul in hollow knight was easy, in skong its harder, but skong is harder game

[lean fog]

guys y’all know about how hornet is supposed to be more nimble than the knight but the knight is tankier (sorry for replying)

[gusty tapir]

and its also so much bigger, now that i look at hallownest im thinking "damn it is so tiny compared to skong"

[gusty tapir]

honestly it does make sense and like a reasonable answer to my meme question lol

[gusty tapir]

cursed child shouldnt exist

[terse warren]

True but also it's very easy

[lean fog]

there’s always an achievement for the endings but it is very obscure

[wintry flame]

i wake up everyday and thank nyleth for making the best area in the game possible #godblessshellwood

[flint wadi]

idk why not, id take them over etv achievement any day

like its appropriate amount of reward for something challenging

speedrunning tests your routing and knowledge

[gusty tapir]

me with citadel #godblesscapitalism #underworksdeservesit (i swear those are only jokes)

[flint wadi]

truth?

[hallow marten]

If it is answerable, it is not meme😝
The best headcanons come out like this

[wintry flame]

from a gameplay perspecvtive it's kind of beautiful

[noble magnet]

Thinkin about how Lost Lace’s battle kinda feels like a rebirthing thing. Cause Lace 2 happens in The Cradle, and the setting of the Lost Lace battle (Lade cocooned in the void with her mother) almost feels like it’s analogous to a womb

[flint wadi]

i think shellwood is beautiful in general i have 0 gripes with it

[wintry flame]

the way it's intertwined with the bellveins of bellhart is one of my favorite aspects of it

[flint wadi]

and i love nyleth

[noble magnet]

I like shellwood and nyleth was fun even if she was kinda easy

[flint wadi]

its definitely my favorite flagship area, maybe only behind choral chambers

[noble magnet]

Sister Splinter also didn’t give me trouble I got her in one try

[wintry flame]

it feels so in tune with the nearby civilization and the bugs catching those pond things outside make it feel so alive

[noble magnet]

Ikr

[wintry flame]

and it keeps its elegance even post act 3 unlike cchambers

[flint wadi]

i like these guys

[wintry flame]

barely even a problem they are so slow and they usually kill other enemies for you

[flint wadi]

that is true unfortunately.............

[gusty tapir]

once i dropped into the lake by accident and he kept sniping me all the time

[gusty tapir]

i really like how enemies interact with eachother in skong

like ants hunting other bugs, pondcathchers hunting pondskippers etc

all the small details in this game are so fucking good

[wintry flame]

choral chambers also feels a bit too linear for my taste?

[flint wadi]

my list

[wintry flame]

it's weird to say

it always felt like a transition between the EXCELLENT citadel areas

and the slerb i guess

[frosty smelt]

I want Lace as the protagonist of HK3

[flint wadi]

its literally the most crossroads/city of tears like area in the game though
so many intersections, i dont agree personally

[wintry flame]

obviously i'm cherrypicking here the two big vertical rooms are amazing

[gusty tapir]

i like bilewater a lot from lore perspective, but god damn it was horrendous to get through it on my first playthrough

[flint wadi]

yeah thats kinda the point i respect it

[frosty smelt]

She has charisma and Hornet saving her is an indication that she could become a protagonist.

[gusty tapir]

also, putrified ducts have fleatopia, so it is instant s and your list is objectively wrong, clearly

[wintry flame]

sinner's road in s
bilewater feels way too forced in its evil (even if it's still good) sinner's road immediately makes it clear that it doesn't fucking like you but it feels fair

[frosty smelt]

HK3 probably has 2 protagonists, Hornet and Lace going to the abyss to rescue the Knight

[flint wadi]

fleatopia have nothing to do with what makes ducts ducts

[uncut holly]

It seems like Khann wasnt actually that good of a fighter and just used their coral manipulation to win fights

[flint wadi]

you could move the pale lake area somewhere else

[wintry flame]

ducts is :(

[flint wadi]

ducts is actually the worst area in the game

[gusty tapir]

i dont like ducts either, but fleatopia

[flint wadi]

its just bilewater dvd sequel

[frosty smelt]

Sinner Road is the map to go to after you have the dash, hook and double jump

[wintry flame]

it seems like khann wasn't actually that good of a figher but they had a skill that made them a good fighter

[flint wadi]

nothing to do with ducts

its not about fleatopia fleatopia just happens to be there

ducts is horrible

[gusty tapir]

take that

[wintry flame]

fleatopia should've been in the last judge room #beastmode

[frosty smelt]

Bilewater I found a fair map

[gusty tapir]

facts and logic

[flint wadi]

its not even themed after ducts bud

[hallow marten]

What about PABLOO

[frosty smelt]

just get the amulet that doesn't make you infected

[flint wadi]

pale lake is part of the salt lake motif which runs through bilewater as well

[wintry flame]

putrified ducts doesn't feel good to traverse it's just bilewa2r

[flint wadi]

its not a ducts thing

[wintry flame]

but like worse

[frosty smelt]

he can be an npc

[flint wadi]

ducts specifically are very redundant and add nothing to the game

[hallow marten]

🤣 🤣 🤣

[wintry flame]

yeah makes you wish we got the best area that isn't in the game instead

PHARLOOM BAYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[gusty tapir]

it adds another primal aspid ass enemy which is yet worse than other primal aspid enemies

[frosty smelt]

I like the fact that Sherma survived everything

[flint wadi]

salt lakes to parallel mount fay would be so good

[wintry flame]

Just kidding the best area in the game should've been coral gorge

[wintry flame]

we got mount gay instead

[frosty smelt]

Sherma, Garmond and Shakra are the only ones Hornet considers friends

[gusty tapir]

lace?

[bronze turret]

Oh my goodness, yes! My opinion is suspicious because I like sealife-themed maps, though.

[flint wadi]

dont disrespect my goat, it had nothing to do with coral gorges disappearance

[frosty smelt]

does she consider her a friend?

[flint wadi]

in fact theres a point in time where both coexisted

but tc took it out

[gusty tapir]

kinda

[wintry flame]

idk what part of them made them design such a beautiful area and then scrap it for no reason

[bronze turret]

I wouldn't call them friends, more like acquaintances by circumstances

[frosty smelt]

Lace in lore is what? Hornet's sister?

[flint wadi]

it has nothing to do with mount fay

[wintry flame]

yeah i know i just wanted to say mount gay

[twin ocean]

what really is fayforn, this bird just comes out after we play a song then never appears again

is he some sort of... guide to people who want to go up to the top of the mountain?

[gusty tapir]

aunt i think, herra is gms daughter right?

[bronze turret]

It's her aunt

[flint wadi]

technically her great aunt

but only technically they dont have blood relations really

[frosty smelt]

only silk relations

[flint wadi]

truth

[gusty tapir]

they are silk related, haha get it? since lace is silk being

[gusty tapir]

fuck, got first

[wintry flame]

lacenet shippers currently on hold

[frosty smelt]

Can you consider her Hornet's aunt, then?

[flint wadi]

they were in the trenches ever since hornet said child

[edgy barn]

Only in a technicality

[frosty smelt]

Targeryans are type:

[wintry flame]

lacenet shippers found in HELL

[bronze turret]

The lore implies that she is a deity (Mask Maker is the one who gives that info), while the term 'Higher Being' is never brought up, since that's how most of this world works, I guess it's safe to say she may be a type of.

[frosty smelt]

Hornet is a princess and still noble

[flint wadi]

its ok silksong has better yuri anyway (shaknet)

[frosty smelt]

Did she have any feelings for Knight?

because he is technically her brother, so she should like him

the Knight saved her from the abyss

[twin ocean]

of..?.

[gusty tapir]

that doesnt seem like something youd say to random nobody you dont consider a friend

[bronze turret]

A type of [Higher Being]. I thought you guys knew this sort of writing.

[fallow spindle]

each acts have different logos which i find cool

[flint wadi]

hornet saved lace out of obligation and for greater good

[twin ocean]

Cool but this isznt lore

[flint wadi]

she might sympathize with her but theyre not really friends

[fallow spindle]

lore: hornet wants to have pets canonically

[flint wadi]

at least not yet

[wintry flame]

if you get the twisted child ending you get a root icon

[frosty smelt]

Lace should be the protagonist of HK3

[fallow spindle]

yuh but this is for each act's title cards

theres a central image which represents the acts

[wintry flame]

i completely misunderstood it fmll

[fallow spindle]

unsure why act 1 involves a weaver but probably since its hornet learning about the world of this place

[frosty smelt]

the funny thing is that Trobbio is still alive

[fallow spindle]

act 2 is trivial and act 3 is probably supposedly to represent the abyss with the spirals n shit

[twin ocean]

guys is styx and huntress sisters

[bronze turret]

It's basically the setup act, the one that introduces us to this world, so checks out!

[wintry flame]

imagine you get kidnapped and then you find out it's your ancestors's birthplace they're taking you to fast forward 20 hours you are sending your grandma to hell

[gusty tapir]

trobbio my goat

[frosty smelt]

the fact that they did such a big and hidden act shows the devs' affection for the game

[frosty smelt]

something that is missing in the industry

[fallow spindle]

technically its shorter but way harder so takes long aswell

act 2 is massive

[wintry flame]

as soon as act 3 started i started bullshitting

[fallow spindle]

act 1 has the more diverse areas

[frosty smelt]

there is enough content even for a "secret" act

[wintry flame]

act 1 is huge but you can skip act2's worst by doing phantom #fuckunderworks

[frosty smelt]

I had finished it and didn't know about act 3

[fallow spindle]

minimum wage simulator

[gusty tapir]

you also can go through scales in grand gate to choral chambers

[wintry flame]

can you

[frosty smelt]

my favorite boss in the game is the tree sister

I don't remember her name

but it's a good fight and fun

[wintry flame]

i skipped her fuck her

[fallow spindle]

i still find it funny how hornet is actually canonically attractive to these bugs

[subtle plaza]

does anyone know what the deal is with signis and gron

[frosty smelt]

but the fight and the introduction of the phantom is the best

[subtle plaza]

cogwork dancers, first sinner and widow is my favourite

[timber wharf]

they are the ones who keep the bugs in the deep docks working even after they get consumed by the haunting

[wintry flame]

it's mostly just bugs saying she looks nice and that one flea

[subtle plaza]

clover dancers is also cool but less aura

[bronze turret]

I saw this first time I played, I loved it! Afterwards, I learned you can also taunt and he'll react to it! And in his reprise fight, you can catch him catching his breath in the hatch.

[frosty smelt]

I found them easy and a bit boring

[flint wadi]

i guess its about context of pharloom being their kingdom originally

and how theyre tied to it

[frosty smelt]

in reality, the HK bosses are even more interesting

[subtle plaza]

me too tbh

[frosty smelt]

only those in act 3 are above average

[fallow spindle]

actually yeah we do mostly see hornet gain weaver abilities in act 1

[flint wadi]

yeah you go through weaver spires

[subtle plaza]

i was gonna say i disagree but now that i think about it most bosses in skong are structurally similar to eachother

[abstract rivet]

can some1 explain why High Halls and Memorium were created? like why did the citadel wanna replicate the wild life of Pharloom, and tf is high halls even for

[subtle plaza]

hk has more variety methinks

[flint wadi]

you see widow

obviously its not as sound as act 2 symbol which is literally just the citadel but anyway

[fallow spindle]

red maiden

[gusty tapir]

i said this once and ill say it again, i love all the small details in skong, such a good game

[frosty smelt]

follow almost the same formula of sending minions in the 2nd phase of the fight

[fallow spindle]

what do you think act3's symbol means, seems pretty abstract

[flint wadi]

high halls is place for citadels high soceity specifically the conductors

[fallow spindle]

it definitely is for the abyss

[bronze turret]

The visual continuities are one of the charms of this game for me, it's is not something most games put effort or their minds into! Makes the world feel more alive and moving

[wintry flame]

it's the snail shaman

[flint wadi]

shamans/void

[abstract rivet]

whats up with Memorium

[fallow spindle]

oh true

[frosty smelt]

the last judge is not difficult

[fallow spindle]

Snail shamans which are also linked to the abyss

[flint wadi]

citadels flimsy attempt at preserving pharlooms ecosystems

[pliant meadow]

Yeah and ||lost lace|| is piss easy

[flint wadi]

its uhhhh think of it as a museum/zoo

[subtle plaza]

i found last judge pretty difficult ngl, that fight was really cool though

[flint wadi]

and a study of sorts

[fallow spindle]

memory of ur traversal to this place ig

nostalgia stuff

[flint wadi]

thats more meta but yeah

[frosty smelt]

I haven't faced the lost lace yet

I'm finishing HK

[gusty tapir]

what 7 years of development heaven does to games

[flint wadi]

inuniverse the citadel bugs wanted to try and preserve citadels ecosystems

[pliant meadow]

You shouldn't have unspoiled it if you haven't gotten that far into the game then 😭

[fallow spindle]

damn thats far

[bronze turret]

I parsed it as them trying to document what remained from the kingdoms that were there before; each floor is dedicated to Karak, Verdania, Hunter's March, and Mosslands. (It's really sad when you see Verdania's fauna dead in their enclosures)

[ebon silo]

It still failed cuz why not

[frosty smelt]

I went to act 3, got out of the abyss and then downloaded Hollow Knight

[fallow spindle]

wym theres still alot of bugs in there

also ecosystems that are extinct by then are there

[flint wadi]

yeah thats probably why

in general they wanted to preserve some of pharlooms environments cause they knew damn well what they were doing to them lol

[frosty smelt]

After I finish it, I'll play Act 3 of Silksong

[fallow spindle]

strange ordering but i guess that helps give context

[upper copper]

So I just saw a theory that states that trobbio is a mass murderer (whether it was accidental or not) and that lowkey ruins him for me. Is there any more evidence?

[fallow spindle]

so you arent too late kek

[frosty smelt]

I killed the broken vessel and I'm going to kill those 3 lords

[fallow spindle]

sweet

[abstract rivet]

the hunter journal shows hes happy with peoples deaths so that might be true

[frosty smelt]

It amazes me that she didn't do a Hornet cosplay

[abstract rivet]

whats the lore of Greymoor

[fallow spindle]

hornet is the middle child of this place lol

[frosty smelt]

[bronze turret]

I personally loved this aspect of the game, how each map has something that tells us through environmental storytelling that we're essentially witnessing the long-term consequences of the Citadel's actions in the name of what's essentially an Outer God bent on expanding their dominion ad infinitum.

[limpid summit]

Who really knows

Might prove that WL’s title of Root also refers to her species, paralleling PK

But we don’t know if Greyroot is an abnormality or if all Roots do stuff like that

[trim lark]

i suppose it comes down to how many people can even get to trobbios stage
reminder that the regular front entrance is closed at least before we open it

[frosty smelt]

I hope there is DLC

[fallow spindle]

DIIII-AAAA-RHEEEE-AAAA

[upper copper]

Apparently the rain is literally just poo

[frosty smelt]

what flag is that?

[flint wadi]

i concur, as much as i yearn for color and vibrancy i absolutely love sands of karak and how melancholy it is, no other place like it

[bronze turret]

I guess it's one of the reasons I love Dark Fantasy so much, there's always a melancholic atmosphere permeating it in places

(Heck, even Bilewater's music leans on the melancholic side!)

[frosty smelt]

I think the citadel has a very Blasphemous vibe

[flint wadi]

a lot of pharloom leans more into bloodborne/dark souls dark fantasy aesthetic and i guess they wanted to go all in on it instead of having a contrast

[flint wadi]

ehhh its moreso "holier than thou"

[frosty smelt]

all HK maps have this "dark" thing or something "that looks happy, but is dark deep down" contrasting with the Knight's personality

[trim lark]

whiteward jumpscare

[bronze turret]

It does! Although I would confer that Blasphemous conveys its themes of faith more closely to the ruthlessness of the Spanish Inquisition, whereas Silksong approaches the subject under a facade of feigned goodwill.

[frosty smelt]

while in Silksong there are happy, melancholic, sad maps contrasting with Hornet's personality

[bronze turret]

I loved that place, actually! Dark Fantasy always reserves a segment to play with the horror genre 😆

[hallow marten]

Man... Whiteward is like that Little Nightmares 2 hospital, but in 2D lol.

I think the worst part is that psalm cylinder with sounds of Mizello's last surgery

[past cypress]

My theory is that Greyroot is a parasite that took over a member of White Lady's species

[graceful grail]

Dose TKs Flower break so easily because it has void, and Hornet stays intact because she aint??

Or is hornets stronger becouse it is a memory? (Dreams are stronger than reality in HK connonicaly)

[proud swan]

poor Mizello

[sinful nimbus]

In the first game the flower is just described as very fragile, it doesn't seem to have to do with who is holding it

It doesn't break in Silksong for gameplay reasons, presumably. Its fragile nature is never referenced at all.

[silk dirge]

isnt it because its manifested from hornets memories or smth

she says she cant seek it out in pharloom bc itd be too fragile

[proud swan]

"Oh ho! Back from the depths with nary a scratch! Is it as you feared?It is, and worse. Your snare has sunk the monarch deep, deeper than I can safely descend.To cut Pharloom free, I must plunge below the surface of that lake of liquid nothing. No shell survives submersion in that void, Old One, not even yours.Not without aid, certainly. Though aid may exist. The flower that resists the dark. Do you know of it?The Everbloom?... We’ve heard the tale, but had thought it a myth. If ever it sprouted in our lands we would surely have known?I would not seek it in these lands. I need its power full, and it is too fragile to sustain here long."

[candid panther]

Is bell eater the predator of bell beast species or smth

[sinful nimbus]

Oh interesting

[silk dirge]

possibly

but the game says its "long dormant"

[candid panther]

What does that mean

[silk dirge]

thats its been eepy for a while

[candid panther]

So its void influenced if it wakes up right after void?

[silk dirge]

and it was only awoken by the collapse of pharloom in act 3

bc there was basically an earthquake

[proud swan]

I mean his house kinda had a giant earthquake right

[scenic stirrup]

Did gilly die 💀i just noticed the toy u get from the spotted ant boss looks like him

[graceful grail]

What elso to add to family tree?

[silk dirge]

no

read the quest thats their doll

[scenic stirrup]

Ohhh thank god

[proud swan]

Damn thats a confusing family

[pastel timber]

good lord when did half of those connections get established

[silk dirge]

anyways i think probably bell eater was the reason the bellways closed and maybe that happened at the beginning of the haunting or something?

[pastel timber]

whats the thought process behind white lady and the 3 shellwood creatures all being siblings?

[silk dirge]

we dont know how long pharloom has been haunted for

[scenic stirrup]

Theyre plants 🥀

Idk abt nyleth i know little abt her

[pastel timber]

we know exactly one source of plants in the game and its unn

[graceful grail]

White Lady??

[gentle aspen]

but tk is the shade lord

[pastel timber]

doesnt actually cause any plants to sprout into being, she just annexes half of greenpath, which unn dreamed into being

[terse warren]

Isma next to Nyleth for sure

[scenic stirrup]

So is hornet 1/3rd a tree person now bc of the parasite

[pastel timber]

the connection between nyleth and sister splinter definitely exists, but saying WL and greyroot are definitely related is an assumption at best and a stretch at worst unless im missing something

[graceful grail]

Ok, but Sister Splinter controls thorny vines, and Nyleth has the head flowers

[pastel timber]

shes like 1/7th tree person, 1/7th architect, 1/7th hunter, 1/7th beast, etc

[graceful grail]

I wanna confirm that first

[terse warren]

Yet you assumed Greyroot and WL were related to Nyleth and Sister Splinter

[scenic stirrup]

White lady and greyroot have the same eyes tho if that means anything but probably just the same species. I think white lady is a pale version of the tree race like how the pale king was a pale version of a wyrm

[terse warren]

Isn't Sister Splinter made by Nyleth

[pastel timber]

yeah nyleth is the heart of shellwood and sister splinter is definitely a shellwood creature, those two are related i can accept that, but greyroot and WL being there too?

[graceful grail]

Sister splinter says about her sisters in her nedoline diologue, reffering to nyleth the sleeping one and White lady who is gone

[terse warren]

Crazy reaching

Multiple sisters are gone
WL is only 1

[graceful grail]

There are more later prob

[terse warren]

I'm p sure she's just talking about the other big Splinterbugs

Which are probably dead

[pastel timber]

none of that has any indication towards the white lady at all, nor nyleth for that matter, just "sisters"

[terse warren]

No, no, Nyleth is probably the sleeping deep one

But she's not a "sister"

[wary zinc]

what is the sylph motif? sylphsong from eva, and pale oil being the bile gland of a sylphean slug
whar?

[graceful grail]

Y not, she is talking bout her sisters ??

[terse warren]

She's not

The "sisters" line and the "other" line aren't necessarily related

[pastel timber]

ahh youre right, two separate lines

[graceful grail]

Generally when people sing in pharloom they dont change subjects

[pastel timber]

ok but there is the word "other" which means something else

sisters - long gone
other - sleeping deep

[terse warren]

Like, other really feels like it's referring to "someone different"

[pastel timber]

she also refers to "children children"

[terse warren]

P sure the other Sister Splinter lines literally do

[terse warren]

Point proven immediately lmao

[graceful grail]

Why so obscure with other Team Cherry

[pastel timber]

theres "children", "sisters", and "other"

[terse warren]

Other is definitely Nyleth

[graceful grail]

So, your saying she is talking about her family???

[steel turret]

I think the same

[terse warren]

Children are the small Splinterbugs, Sisters are the dead big Splinterbugs and Other is Nyleth

[pastel timber]

trivia states that her filename is the "splinter queen" and suggests maybe sister splinter took over nyleths reign, which would then imply that her children are current shellwood, her sisters are the heirs who failed to take the mantle (hence long gone), and the 'other' is nyleth's shellwood, which is "sleeping deep" as modern shellwoods foundation

[graceful grail]

Ok, but does it make sense for all theese Plant Bugs to not be originating from the same being, like weavers and GMS, or Wyrm and Vessels??

[pastel timber]

yes but you cant then lump greyroot and white lady in with them because they are something completely different

[graceful grail]

They are PLANTS?!?

[steel turret]

Not all of them. Like, the wisps and Grimmchild are both fire beings but it’d be crazy to say the nightmare heart was both of their daddies

[terse warren]

Weavers aren't biological and vessels are hollow

[terse warren]

Damn guys crazy thing

[pastel timber]

ok so is the grass in ancient basin????? what????

[steel turret]

The weavers are totally biological wym

[terse warren]

I can't believe Elderbug and Soul Master and False Knight are related (all 3 are bugs)

[terse warren]

We literally see GMS ascend them

They're not a product of evolution

[foggy fractal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umhEEBSe4mk peak content ?

[graceful grail]

I’m talking about groups of creatures, all Weavers came from GMS, all vessels came from PK, it makes sense that all plant bugs came from one source to.

[steel turret]

Yeah, they’re biological bugs uplifted by divine power. They’re genespliced, yes, but they’re still organic. They’re biological in the way mewtwo or perfect cell is

[terse warren]

Yeah so like

[graceful grail]

OK then, when teen cherry reveals that all four sisters remember this conversation. I GTG

[terse warren]

It's normal that they all come from the same place, since it's the only way for them to be born

[pastel timber]

no cause we know thats full stop not true
the greenpath plants came from unn, bugs and all
unless youre implying nyleth and the white lady all originate from the dreams of unn too?
this world doesnt follow the "single common ancestor" lineage that real life living things do

[terse warren]

Vessel are a single species the plant bugs are multiple

[graceful grail]

Also, you are forgetting her name is SISTER splinter

[terse warren]

Yeah

The big Splinterbugs are sisters to each other

And we don't see them, because they're gone

[steel turret]

Yeah, convergent evolution. Higher beings can’t birth other higher beings, Unn and White lady just so happen to both be plant themed, otherwise they’re wholly unrelated

[terse warren]

Nothing says they can't

[pastel timber]

i feel like people try to draw more connections between hallownest and pharloom than reasonably exist
yesterday someone was arguing that PK foresaw and planned the entire plot of silksong
these are separate kingdoms! not everything is a hk callback!

[steel turret]

Lemme rephrase that, if they can they probably can’t do it by themselves

[pastel timber]

the only link between hallownest and pharloom we know exists is that some weavers fled from pharloom to hallownest, every link we see is a direct result of that (besides the presence of seemingly universal substances like void and lifeblood, and also water and stone)

the connection between white lady and greyroot is still completely unknown, hornet doesnt comment on it at all, but the visual similarities are too obvious to ignore, but we have nothing to base any theories on regarding that

i will say though that conversation made me curious on sister splinter lore

i always figured it was "sister splinter" like the title a nun has, cause she lives in a temple

but i'd never seen the needolin dialogue

[steel turret]

I thought that silver splinter and her children were like weeds overrunning Nyleth’s garden after she wasn’t around to tend it

[steel turret]

It’s interesting that the “Grand mother” in Silk’s name is also a religious title like mother superior, and off the top of my head just her and sister splinter have that in common.

[pastel timber]

its interesting cause nyleth is said to be the "first seed" of shellwood and its heart, and what we see of her are thorny vines and white flowers, which do exist in shellwood! but sister splinter who appears to be the current reigning being is more woody, explaining all the stick and twig creatures around, i do wonder if modern shellwood has been transformed through sister splinters reign in some way

[pastel timber]

oh youre right youre right, i never drew the connection with mother being a religious title

[steel turret]

And Nyleth is a weird case in general. She’s not a higher being, but her role in shellwood is damn exactly what Unn’s was in greenpath. She was responsible for the growth of flora and presumably even life with the flower creatures. She’s the closest a normal bug has come to being a higher being.

Maybe she’s some sort of demigod like hornet?

[nova heath]

What makes you say she isn't a higher being?

[pastel timber]

it might be then that nyleth was a flower that was allowed to spread and take over the fertile land, as plants do, whereas unn dreamed greenpath into existence clearly showcasing her higher power

[steel turret]

Because she’s way too weak. The snail shamans needed power comparable to a higher being to pluck the ever bloom from Hornet’s mind, and Nyleth can’t make the cut alone. The shamans need juice from two other strong bugs

[pastel timber]

we dont have a specific checklist for what classes something as a higher being other than an ingame character referring to them as such, and no in-game character does

[nova heath]

fair

[steel turret]

true but not every higher being has a connection to dreams. Everything GMS did was in the physical realm

[pastel timber]

snail shamans say "ain't really a bug, to be told, but a powerful presence nonetheless"

[pastel timber]

ofc ofc i more mean that nyleth was reproducing as a regular plant, whereas unn was doing something a mortal bug could not