sk-lore

[twin dragon]

Yeah but because she's waking up after the citadel seemingly couldn't sustain its chant for eternity

[foggy fractal]

tc thought it'd be funny trust

[proud swan]

Ok its possible that the water froze. Mt fay could have been water at some point right

[abstract rivet]

Or team cherry really passed upon the opportunity on making the coolest area ever and made it colosseum of fools but arguably worse

[brazen breach]

ahhh okay i see

[sinful nimbus]

Coral Tower is so peak though

It only stings because it could've been more 😔

[abstract rivet]

is there an runback on the boss

[twin dragon]

Coral tower was so fun i'd take it over colo any day

[proud swan]

Mt fay has frozen lakes I think thats a reasonable explanation

[foggy fractal]

dlc trust

[abstract rivet]

I skipped coral tower with lost verdania so i have no clue

[fierce jasper]

water

[brazen breach]

no, im pretty sure you can make a shortcut after like the 3rd gauntlet

[spare holly]

"Apperant" og location of pharloom bay

[abstract rivet]

oh bet what does it give you other than heart

Is it adjusted for game completion even

[brazen breach]

nothing but you can keep the heart

[edgy barn]

Some of Khann's dialogue implies they actively opposed GMS/The Citadel (they are used intercheangably so we can never know), and we know he ruled half of pharloom once. It's hard to imagine their downfall wasn't provoked

[pastel timber]

mustve been, the water mustve flowed down from wherever mt fay gets it and gone into sands via the coral tower, maybe the citadel building in mt fay is what stopped the water seeping through who knows

[brazen breach]

and put it in bellhome

[abstract rivet]

imma do it just for the boss

[brazen breach]

the gauntlets were harder than the boss imo but he is quite fun

[proud swan]

There is literally a frozen lake above coral tower, it has to be it then

[abstract rivet]

I did true ending but i went super undergear, i completed act 3 with 53% Game Comp

[abstract rivet]

I think an architect crest build could make it a less heavy weight

[brazen breach]

i had like 89% but i barely used tools other than the boomerang 😭

[spare holly]

Isnt the space between the 2 areas the white crystal place? I mean it is frozen afterall

[abstract rivet]

Dice and Multibinder are the goats

[proud swan]

now I have a ssitty theory and I just want to check it: could you think that maybe the Citadels buildings and the slab blocked the sun or the heat, and for that reason Mt Fay became frozen? It would fit on the whole citadel destroys ecosystem theme

[abstract rivet]

Im going for reserve bind i got like 15 memory lockets

[brazen breach]

i used the blue and yellow ones obviously, but didnt do extra damage with the red ones almost at all

[edgy barn]

At the corpse, before receiving the Elegy of the Deep

All to bow...
All lost to fear...
Remember our strength...
Remember our rule...
Now none to resist... But us...
Alone... against the pale light...

Inside the memory, entrance

..The river...
...The tower... tall...
...Beat... flow...
...Might...
...By claw... By us...
...Great lord...

Inside the memory, anywhere in the gauntlet area

For the river long...
For the lord born strong...
For life... its beat, its flow...
For order brought by claw and blade...

After Crust King Khann appears

Hone yourself!
By strength, overwhelm!
Serve and die!
Let the weak crumble away!
In my name, conquer all!
Defy your limits!

After his defeat

...Our claws to crush... Our claws to rule... Our claws to save them all...

[abstract rivet]

i still didnt get max nail lmao. One flea is locked behind a deep docks gauntlet so not sure how i feel about that

[pastel timber]

there is no sun its all underground, mt fay was likely always frozen given the fayforn evolved to be warm like that

[brazen breach]

its not all that bad if you have the magma bell but i died a few times to the bugs carrying fucking nukes

[fierce jasper]

dont rly make sense but mabye cuz its so high up its frozen over?

[brazen breach]

you can also get a flea that gives you all the remaining flea locations

[abstract rivet]

do yall have a valid theory on why the Memory Place enemies/bosses attack us? I think they think we’re an intruder

[pastel timber]

citadel activity couldve just shifted the flow ever so slightly and that completely ruined it, like a beavers dam

[fierce jasper]

it seems that the citadel is just a big fuck you to everything in pharloom

[pastel timber]

nyleth is a wild animal
khaan just watched you kill his entire army
karmelita just watched you kill her bodyguards
green prince wants you to get the fuck out of his memory

[proud swan]

Yeah to be fair theres STILL a lake over it, If I remeber it correctly. Its not frozen

[pastel timber]

this is genuinely the canon

[abstract rivet]

Nothing big of a deal for my fully expanded Architect Crest and Venom Cogflies!

[spare holly]

Maybe the pale king wasnt so bad afterall

[brazen breach]

well Karmelita seemed to invite the challenge being the only live one, the others idk

[fierce jasper]

first thing i got right in ths channel🔥 🔥

[pastel timber]

im gonna go take a look i imagine theres nothing telling there

[fierce jasper]

fr

[proud swan]

Isnt every city though?

[abstract rivet]

Pale King compared to GMS is a angel bro

[proud swan]

Me too!

Im saved on the slab lol what luck

[brazen breach]

people call GMS someone who sacrificed her kingdom for her children but she doesnt seem too nice to her kids either

[orchid whale]

Guys, do we think Hornet is void?

[brazen breach]

i dont even know anymore

[pastel timber]

bait used to be believable

[abstract rivet]

Atleast Pale King cared about the Kingdom yknow, and didnt want husks worshipping, just regular people with their own free will and built infrastructure and stagways and benches for them, unlike GMS who makes underworks workers work beyond their limit with zero safety, and make them work till they die + make them spend their 2 month of wage for a bench only a single time

[limber anvil]

Why do people think pharloom bay will be the first Dlc it was clearly cut post 2023 development wise... but what are people saying has been found in the files?

[abstract rivet]

this mf is Satan I won’t forgive her even for helping us save lace, i thank her for saving lace but you aint getting a full redemption for your sins

[pastel timber]

people like to hope for cut content to come back as dlc no matter what it is, and plus its one of the few hooks we have to go off for potential dlc speculation

[brazen breach]

besides the pale king also deeply regretted what he had to do and mourned the kids he was forced to sacrifice for the greater good

[abstract rivet]

He was a desperate person

[proud swan]

Yes

[brazen breach]

also for Lace's whole life she didnt aknowlege her whatsoever it seems because Lace has such a complex for GMS "choosing hornet over her"

[limber anvil]

Fair... there is also an unused map outline plus 2 cut rooms seen 1 month before launch in the last acmi map

[abstract rivet]

the even most powerful ppl would slip up if theyre in a situation when their kingdoms on the line, pull up all ideas from your ass to save the kingdom

[limber anvil]

It was cut post bilewater being added a cut quest calls bilewater the swamp by the sea

[orchid whale]

I feel like there’s a MAAAASSIVE gap in the story Team Cherry intentionally left.
The moment you begin to think about anything related to GMS, it’s all such a blank.
Like, we don’t even know what the game means by she’s asleep, right?
And it seems like the Citadel, at one point, was held together pretty well, even if corrupt from a more grounded standpoint.
So why did the haunting suddenly happen? Why did the weavers leave?
What set this entire story into motion to begin with?
There’s also lots pointing towards the Citadel trying to figure out eternal life. But why? Like, that’s literally the root of the Haunting, isn’t it? But it’s not like the kingdom was in danger and NEEDED immortality, right? And as far as we know GMS lives a very long time.

[abstract rivet]

lace is fragile and all anwyay shes gonna need hornets help to sustain the silk she needs

[proud swan]

its this place

[abstract rivet]

Bro i beat Phantom and First Sinner after Lost Lace

[pastel timber]

the way i see it theres 2 possible timelines

timeline 1:

• weavers uplifted
• citadel civilisation begins
• first sinner discovers the truth
• gms orders the other weavers to imprison her
• breeds dissent
• rebellion
• the citadel, which was already being created, is altered to become the music box that keeps her asleep
• weavers create a religion with themselves as the deities to ensure the bugs of the citadel continue the lullaby eternally
• weavers pass the burden to the conductors and die, lying in wait for someone to save them

timeline 2:

• weavers uplifted
• citadel civilisation begins
• weavers rebel against gms's control
• lull her to sleep
• truly believe they are the gods of pharloom, and create a religion stating as such
• build up the citadel with the intent of having it sing a lullaby to keep her asleep
• first sinner discovers the truth
• weavers themselves imprison her as it goes against their divine narrative and egos
• weavers realise their rule cannot last, pass on the burden, and die so they may lie in wait for someone to save them

[pastel timber]

this cave is whats directly above coral tower, where we get memory crystal

[abstract rivet]

i was so locked tf in for the main objective I didnt do side quests unless it was for act 3

[brazen breach]

I believe the haunting is the result of silk being injected into bugs for eternal life and that being passed down generation to generation for god knows how long, and the citatel at its roots seems to be pretty corrupt since everything is so religion based, pilgrims die just to go up there

but im not a lore expert so take that with a grain of salt

[abstract rivet]

The bugs who use silk to live longer also rely on it so without theyre basically cooked

[pastel timber]

not quite, its more that when the haunting started, any bug with silk already inside them was way more easy to control using haunted silk, caretaker says as much himself

[limber anvil]

Basically she created the weavers by elavating them. Then they learned the truth put her to sleep made the citidel. Tasks the inhabitants to keep her alseep via the song then they left passing power to the bugs. They left fleeing across the world to leave grandmother silk some reached hollownest and returned... normal bugs used silk to prolong their life this eventully made them vulnerable allow grandmother silk to possess them causing the haunting

[azure dirge]

These timelines have a huge gap though between weave uplift and citadel being started. The citadel was only begun rather late after the atlas had been made with the intent to trap gms.

[brazen breach]

i think most of them didnt even have a choice since again most of them were born like that

[abstract rivet]

does The Last Judge used to kill Pilgrims before being a husk or just not let them pass

[proud swan]

But did you find anything in it?

[pastel timber]

nothing

[brazen breach]

yea that makes sense the experiments probably started afterwards but either way it has been going on for ages

[abstract rivet]

Whiteward is basically the average evil scientists ww2 chemical and biological warfare lab

[pastel timber]

i feel like people talk about the citadel as if it popped up overnight, and there was no civilisation that started small and slowly built up over the course of any given timeline

[azure dirge]

That silk also has soul in it and connects to gms, which means if they don’t have strong enough soul and will they will essentially become haunted as the threads take over.

[limber anvil]

They created the citidel post putting her to asleep but I think its option 1

[azure dirge]

Well yeah, it didn’t pop up overnight but it didn’t get started immediately either yk.

[proud swan]

this is DIRECTLY under the lake. Maybe its safe to say they interrupted the flow

[vague jolt]

are the old hearts higher beings or nah,

[orchid whale]

The weavers didn’t necessarily die though, they left. Maybe. At least some. Also, there’s no evidence supporting the weavers ran the citadel, is there? And the thing about GMS is, she doesn’t seem entirely imprisoned? This also doesn’t explain the eternal life thing that lead to the haunting. Wouldn’t this mean the weavers aided in the haunting happening?

[abstract rivet]

Bro they couldve used the citadel to make some serious bucks by making it real estate/hotel

[brazen breach]

idk if it was GMS's fault but the very foundation of pharloom is "become holy and climb up" but the road is rigged against them and even if they reach the citadel they just become underworks workers

[pastel timber]

when exactly the first house was built doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things though

[molten parcel]

what yall talkin abt

[brazen breach]

id compare them more to the mantis lords

[proud swan]

idk im getting convinced about coral tower water coming from mt fay

[azure dirge]

It somewhat does. Because between citadel and weaver creation a lot of the other factions were alive and well. A lot of the missing lore that was mentioned is also in that area.

[molten parcel]

all water comes from mountains

[pastel timber]

some of them left, some of them remained, those who remained died and waited
yes there is evidence the weavers ran the citadel, one of the rune harps says this
gms is described as in a cage several times
eternal life isnt what led to the haunting?
the weavers did not aid the haunting theyre dead

[abstract rivet]

Just like how Minecraft’s bottom is always Bedrock, i think based on the examples we see, The Abyss is basically the minecraft version of the bedrock layer

also how does Pharloom free from void in true ending

[molten parcel]

why did water stop flowing in coral tower? what happend?

[azure dirge]

The haunting is a result of GMS trying to escape the citadel’s cage on her through the threads left in the haunted and such.

[abstract rivet]

its 100% freed but just how tho

[brazen breach]

they left and then they were hunted down and killed by GMS (ignore this if its irrelevant to your point)

[orchid whale]

Something about this timeline just feels incomplete to me I guess.
Like, why does GMS need Hornet?

[azure dirge]

Citadel pollution.

[abstract rivet]

Silk

[orchid whale]

Silk for what?

[brazen breach]

she is killing weavers and weaver spawn

[abstract rivet]

Hornet can make Silk, GMS desperately needs silk to continue the haunting and feed lace

[pastel timber]

gms goes into void
cocoons, shoots out silk strands to hold on
void climbs up silk strands
hornet kills gms
silk disappears
void no longer climbing up it

[orchid whale]

But she specifically wanted her silk and shell

It wasn’t just to kill her

[pastel timber]

she wants to bind hornets strength to regain her full power

[molten parcel]

GMS was also trapped in the giant caccoon

[azure dirge]

GMS has been consuming weaver spawn to become complete again and awaken. She doesn’t have enough soul because she’s been drained of soul and silk constantly by the citadel for ages.

[abstract rivet]

Lace can survive after true ending without GMS now that shes our friend though

[brazen breach]

she does come out of it quite easily so its not like shes TRAPPED

[azure dirge]

The cut ending actually shows this

[azure dirge]

She’s still wrapped in silk actually after coming out.

[orchid whale]

But what does being asleep mean then? She seems to be moving around when in the cradle.
She even creates a second cocoon while in the void.
This leads me to believe that she’s not trapped in the cradle, but maybe choosing to be there?

[azure dirge]

GMS also looks way different after consuming Hornet in the cut ending.

[abstract rivet]

We see bugs in Greymoor look at the rain to pick up silk, this definitely tells me GMS needs Silk and she needs it now.

[pastel timber]

shes lulled to slumber by the song of the citadel, and shes slowly waking up, which is what is causing the haunting, shes not fully asleep because shes in the process of waking up

[molten parcel]

hornet is part wyrm

[azure dirge]

It’s more like her focus has been stifled.

[orchid whale]

If she needs silk for any bring, it would be the cocoon I’d think.
Isn’t that what cocoons are for? Forming for your next stage of life?
It just doesn’t feel like she’s trapped

[abstract rivet]

what cut ending

[pastel timber]

they were doing that to recycle silk runoff, that was their job pre-haunting, nothing to do with gms

[azure dirge]

So? GMS isn’t absorbing the wyrm part, Hornet turns more spider like after absorbing gms too.

[abstract rivet]

oh

[proud swan]

Hey don't you guys find it weird that the cradle has the same heating lamps Mt fay has?

Images: widow memory on the cradle and place on mt fay, where you pick up the memory locket

could mt fay originally extend farther and the cradle be part of it? could the cradle ecossystem be just like mt fay before?

[brazen breach]

i dont think she was trapped personally, i think Hornet woke her up fully

[orchid whale]

Okay but then is she slowly waking up or does she need Hornet to wake up? Which is it?

[molten parcel]

she needs Hornet because hornet is part wyrm and part weaver, if GMS absorbs that power she will become unstopable

[abstract rivet]

Pharloom is the best place to make a soulslike game

[pastel timber]

theyre both weaverbuilt, the weaverlights look like the heat lamps

[abstract rivet]

Its all dark and scary and dangerous

[molten parcel]

SS in general is steampunk vibes

[pastel timber]

she is slowly waking up, she needs hornet to regain her strength

[brazen breach]

maybe she was stirring awake and her power was re-awakening but Hornet really knocked her concious?

[azure dirge]

There was an ending cut where you just sit there at the end and let GMS consume you instead essentially. It shows GMS basically sending her threads down and taking over the pilgrims as she frees herself.

[abstract rivet]

can I have a youtube link if theres a cutscene/video for that

[molten parcel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUbWuGGsIus

thats what would happen if hornet lost to GMS

Hug

[brazen breach]

do yall think Hornet being half wyrm is relevant to that? Since wyrms seem to have almost a hypnoric power

[azure dirge]

GMS is basically in a soul deficit. Higher beings usually need worship or some level of source for their soul and power. GMS seems to gain soul from song, which is also why it was likely able to cage her, then the bugs stole her silk to lengthen their lives.

[molten parcel]

the absolute GMS

[proud swan]

we aint got a confirmation though, its weird to put a cutscene like that to roll when we die (unless its steel soul) and if its just the "not binding" thing its weird they removed it, its all ready basically

[azure dirge]

Hornet is half weaver, being a wyrm means her soul and silk would be stronger too. GMS isn’t really after anything wyrm she just needs enough soul from consuming the weaver offspring to fully reawaken.

[abstract rivet]

make this Pantheon of Pharloom boss fr idc if thats a cut ending where hornet is binded to gms

[molten parcel]

it was supossed to happen if you didnt bind or did anything at all i think

[azure dirge]

GMS is a higher being, if she were awakened she would probably be a far more difficult fight.

We never see or fight GMS at her peak.

[brazen breach]

the knight seems to beat the radiance just fine but then again the knight does get help from the void which is like the higher-being-killer

[proud swan]

Yeah that's the point, I dont think it was. I think its still hornet, just a different ending. Maybe even a weaver queen that was discarded

[earnest badge]

Up can someone catch me Up on sk lore

[spare holly]

After our dear alchemist zylotol overdozed his way to death, does the Lifeblood (Plasmid) beast pose any major threat?

[abstract rivet]

i love how all of my favourite bosses are in HK dlcs, Silksong has great bosses like Lost Lace, First Sinner or Clover Dancers but dam I need to seethe potential of boss building team cherry will cook with a boss focused dlc

[orchid whale]

Idk, something about this still feels weird.
Don’t they treat GMS as a diety? Everything about her is treated as a god to worship.
It doesn’t feel like the Citadel has ever operated under the mindset of “this place exists to trap a god we never want to wake up.”
I think this is a valid interpretation, but it doesn’t feel air tight to me.
And again, we have no reason to believe her cocoon wasn’t spun by herself, especially since she does it again in the void.
And if she’s waking up, while having more power sounds nice, that means she doesn’t need Hornet.

[proud swan]

but instead of weaver she would be more pale (which is definitely a theme in red memory)

[molten parcel]

dk if this real https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VOUbW_gE-Q

[molten parcel]

i think thats abyss creature merged with lifeblood

[proud swan]

nah bro this is an edit they say it in the comments

[azure dirge]

That’s very different though, all things considered. Knight unites the shades in DNM to kill it, then in godhome ending he becomes one with the other shades as shadelord and kills them. Radiance lives through memory and dream. He had to wipe her very existence from the minds of bugs.

[abstract rivet]

lifeblood is basically cocaine, We dont see cocaine being actively grown in Hallownest, smh GMS you need to be a better monarh and stop handing out drugs like theyre toys

[pastel timber]

there are so many references to the citadel being a "cage", to bugs and weavers vying for control over gms, ignoring this is ignoring one of the few things we know to be true

[orchid whale]

Yeah, but isn't she also a monarch?

[abstract rivet]

I thought citadel was just the capital city honestly not a delusion about being pilgrim heaven

[spare holly]

Kid named joni

[azure dirge]

Yes. It’s probably the god of lifeblood, yet to be born, waiting to be born, or going to be reborn.

[molten parcel]

silksong showed abyss got non void creatures so the abyss creature on HK might be a void thing with lifeblood

[abstract rivet]

theyre grown in outskirts of Hallownest so err

[brazen breach]

i think its more like killing her in THKs/Godseekers dream destroys any memory of her in everyone elses dreams since she is linked to everyone infected so its like the other way around but yea thats why i said its probably because the knight is one with the void and the void seems to kill higher beings

[azure dirge]

It’s possible what lifeblood is trying to reshape others and the world into is the lifeblood beast.

[pastel timber]

its both, the pilgrims see it as the holy land, and its also just the capital

[abstract rivet]

Also crawfather is such a goofy boss Lmao

[proud swan]

I think one dialogue that weakens your point is the one with the mask maker. It says weavers built the citadel, and we know weavers tried imprisoning gms

[molten parcel]

they either die to last judge or get sent to underworks

[azure dirge]

The void basically just removes all traces of her and her light. That’s why Knight could kill radiance but PK couldn’t.

[abstract rivet]

I think last judge doesnt seperate people from being sinful or sinless now that shes also a husk she kills everyone she sees

[brazen breach]

idk maybe gms forced them to make the citadel or they made it under her command ?

[spare holly]

No, the lifeblood beast has nothing to do with the void

[molten parcel]

someone might pass through her escaping her wrath idk

[orchid whale]

"'By the will of the Conductors,' we once boomed, and this Citadel shook at our decree. The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown. Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise."

[proud swan]

Yeah that is indeed a possibility. But at some point in time citadel had to be a cage

[azure dirge]

No. GMS was betrayed by weavers.

[molten parcel]

hes black idk

[abstract rivet]

sadly the door leading to citadel makes too loud noises for her to pass upon

[spare holly]

Soft core racism bruh

[azure dirge]

A lot of things are black.

[molten parcel]

??????????

he is fucking BLACK man what do you expect me to say

[pastel timber]

the weavers lulled gms to sleep, took control from her, then passed it to the conductors, gms is still the "absolute authority" because shes still alive, shes waking up, only when shes dead will she no longer be the monarch

[brazen breach]

well theres no direct evidence to why pk couldnt kill the radiance but thats a logical way to see it. I personally think the void is like the anti-higher-beings since it seems to attack Radiance who calls it the ancient enemy, POSSIBLY killed PK in his throne room and attacks GMS too

[pastel timber]

i mean we do find it in the abyss

[molten parcel]

calling me racist for saying a character is black is crazy

[abstract rivet]

When i first got the concept of the citadel I thought it was a giant ass tower that we had to ascend from

[spare holly]

The beast exists within a dream realm

[pastel timber]

so does the shade lord

[brazen breach]

yea but she did make them, maybe they still had some resemblance of loyalty or she had a bit of control over them or it was before they betrayed her idk the timeline completelyy

[azure dirge]

There is literally direct evidence. Because he didn’t kill radiance. He also tried to usurp her already. Why wouldn’t he just kill radiance instead of imprisoning them.

The whole point of HK is that radiance was unkillable and had to be trapped.

[molten parcel]

that thing was in abyss and locked on godhome, that thing cant be good

[spare holly]

Uhh silksong ending??????

[molten parcel]

whatever the abyss creature is, its nothing good

[pastel timber]

yeah, just cause its in a dream realm doesnt mean it only exists within a dream realm, the answer is we dont know

[molten parcel]

it escaped

[azure dirge]

Reason they betrayed her is because her threads control those they are connected to to some level. So they perceived themselves as having been enslaved.

[brazen breach]

maybe he didnt know they could kill her or he couldnt enter her dream realm for one reason or another, we dont know cuz its not directly said anywhere

[pale narwhal]

so someone presented an interestkng theory to me
obviously hornet isnt made of void
but we know living bugs can be contaminated by prolonged exposure

and act 3 shows us that Pale Beings arent immune
what if the king was contaminated with void (not to a lethal extent) and Hornet inherited some of that from him

[molten parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/embarace-the-void-gif-12839377726381839493

[azure dirge]

Weavers are as a majority not a very good species lol.

[abstract rivet]

i dont think she made them she just upgraded them

[molten parcel]

shades lord killed the godseeker and escaped her mind

[abstract rivet]

why are weavers so angy all of a sudden to GMS anyway

[brazen breach]

they DID try to convince ||hornet to embrace being a weaver and reject being a wyrm|| so maybe they just hate higher beings or something

[azure dirge]

PK literally put and trapped her in a dream realm within THK. He didn’t ever try because he didn’t think it was possible. He can’t control the void or use it to the level Shade Lord or Lord of Shades Knight could, and he never conceived of either of those being possible because he thought all the vessels were without true wills and life.

[molten parcel]

radiance never had a physical form

or did she?

[azure dirge]

I think they are just really selfish tbh. They wanted Hornet to lead them.

[spare holly]

Going off of godhome ending would be pretty cool to have another sequal this time playing as hollow knight starting from where it left off with hornet and the hk

[proud swan]

About the citadel being a cage:

[azure dirge]

No, doesn’t seem like it. She’s always been light.

[molten parcel]

i think they wanted her to be trained to later on kill GMS

[orchid whale]

Also, another mystery:
What's up with the bells in Silksong?
I feel like there's an implication of a bell society existing before the weavers and the citadel. Is that just me? Am I crazy?
I don't remember where, but I remember it was stated that the THOUSANDS of bells in the center of Pharloom have just... always been there, and nobody knows why. (If anyone knows where this is said I'd love to know.)
And the Pilgrim by the first Bell Beast station mentions that people used to travel the bell veins with carriages. Considering the Citadel doesn't seem to use the bellways very much (despite having one, but opting to travel through other means and make elevators), I wonder if this is in reference to an older society that created the bells in Pharloom?
Am I nuts for this?

[brazen breach]

again thats a good THEORY but thats not confimed anywhere bc we dont know anything about him he only has one direct line if you dont mind his speech at the abyss

[molten parcel]

Bells are cool

[azure dirge]

I think herrah’s deal was always originally to create Hornet to kill gms, but she changed her mind a bit after having the child.

[spare holly]

I mean bells are cool so why not use it

[pastel timber]

theres no evidence that i can think of that says the bells existed pre-citadel

[molten parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-bellbeast-bell-beast-hollow-knight-hollow-knight-silksong-gif-9042676849871261244

[orchid whale]

Yeah but like

Where did they come from?

[azure dirge]

It’s not a theory dude. It’s literally the story of HK. It’s media literacy.

[molten parcel]

bellhart

[orchid whale]

Bellhart was made in them, they didn't make it

[azure dirge]

The whole point of HK is that the radiance was inevitable because they couldn’t kill or stop it…

[abstract rivet]

are all weavers female

[pastel timber]

i mean have you seen how many bells the citadel produces, helmets, weapons, puzzles, everything, bells are a huge part of citadel society

[azure dirge]

It’s literally the story of the game.

[molten parcel]

yeh

[spare holly]

Maybe a little proof would be how transportation within the citadel is more luxury compared to bellways

[orchid whale]

Okay but they existed before the citadel

[abstract rivet]

Wow thats so woke

[pastel timber]

pale king was literally trying to stop the sun from rising

[molten parcel]

wha

[brazen breach]

yea but im just saying we dont know the specifics of why

[pastel timber]

where does it say that??

[abstract rivet]

its a joke smh

[azure dirge]

Yeah.

[proud swan]

The bells open the way to the citadel

[molten parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-gif-23890362

[abstract rivet]

is dying illegal in Pharloom

[pastel timber]

technically yes its a sin

[azure dirge]

And I never said the specifics of why. We do know he couldn’t kill radiance though because he literally couldn’t stop radiance and was trying.

[molten parcel]

do bugs even know theres a actual surface with light

[orchid whale]

I wish I could remember where it's said, but there's an NPC somewhere that mentions that there's a massive cluster of bells in the center of Pharloom that have just... existed.
They didn't MAKE the bells in bellhart, they were just there

[abstract rivet]

wow is GMS dumb

[pastel timber]

is there light on the surface

[molten parcel]

i mean above everything

we are underground, so the actual outside world must exist

[pastel timber]

do you remember vaguely what the dialogue was, theres a full script doc i can search for certain words

[azure dirge]

The bells are pretty weird.

[orchid whale]

I think it used the word cluster, if you can F4 it?

[pastel timber]

what if there is no sun in their sky, and thats why the world is a wasteland with pockets of light centered around higher beings (one of which is referenced to be the sun)

[orchid whale]

Or just search bells.
Or give me the doc and I can search lol

[finite cave]

that one random fuckass pilgrim self destructing his robot body to go flying to blasted steps at mach 10 to save hornet and therefore pharloom:

[pastel timber]

the only instance of the word cluster is for the crustnut

[orchid whale]

Can I see the doc?

[pastel timber]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ee0O2Dm3zl9gK-s-TRfu3brCSMPlOYdBZIqBpA76Iys/edit?tab=t.0

good luck

[finite cave]

mf is a legend

[azure dirge]

The wasteland could also cover the sun and any light from the sky, maybe that’s why places like Hallownest and pharloom are unique, they don’t seem to be touched by the wasteland around them. Maybe they are one of the few places any light shines down onto because the wastes don’t block it out completely.

[brazen breach]

im just saying the lore has a lot of ambiguous stuff so we dont have a literal canon answer to everything specific

[molten parcel]

tbf theres no actual dirt or wall here so i assume this is the actual surface

[molten parcel]

whats with that butterfly, why it broke the magic shit?

[azure dirge]

The lore has a lot of ambiguous stuff. Then the lore also has a lot of stuff it straight up tells you and shows you, and it also has a straight up story and plotline.

That it also straight up tells you.

[jovial trail]

Also the background you get from true ending that looks like that is called surface

[maiden meteor]

mfw when I trip into cogs and my body gets crushed so I turn into a fly, then I go wandering around, land on some cage to rest and fucking die

[proud swan]

Is it that one?

[molten parcel]

i guess on HK universe Sun isnt real

[jovial trail]

We killed it in HK

[finite cave]

he realised being a robot lowkey sucked and forfeiting was a bitchass idea so he went to save hornet✔️✔️✔️✔️

[pastel timber]

bell beast journal entry also calls the bells "old" but that fits the "discarded bells from the citadel" idea

[molten parcel]

what- what robot

[azure dirge]

You can’t hide behind ambiguity. It’s not entirely ambiguous. The details on lifeblood and it’s god are ambiguous. The fight between PK and Radiance has an entire games plot riding on it. Those sorts of things are not the same.

[brazen breach]

your interpretation is just as good as mine friend, theres not always a real true answer to every theory and interpretation

[finite cave]

pilgrims could become flies to inhabit robots in the citadel iirc

[pastel timber]

all the robots are powered by silkflies

[molten parcel]

i did not know that wow

though they were powered by soul

[pastel timber]

silkflies are souls of the dead

[brazen breach]

im not saying that, im saying for example, WHY PK couldnt or didnt think of trying to kill the radiance isnt said anywhere

[finite cave]

yeah the one who saved hornet was actually the fourth sentinel who got bored and went to save hornet (joking)

[azure dirge]

It’s not an interpretation. It’s the actual story of HK. If anything you said was remotely true we wouldn’t even have the basic world setting of Hallownest to begin with.

[vague jolt]

i love second sentinel

[molten parcel]

fith chorus

[proud swan]

I think that bells are mass produced even now, because they are constantly falling

[maiden meteor]

Whiteward also has Silkfly extraction machine

[grim lynx]

Isn't that because higher beings are immortal, they just reborn?

[pastel timber]

this is true its just implied that being a higher being himself he understands that you cant kill them per se

[azure dirge]

Well it actually is somewhat. It’s brought up that radiance infects the minds of lesser bugs. So they would simply propagate within the minds of bugs.

[pastel timber]

no, PK metamorphosised, but the radiance is definitely dead promise

[maiden meteor]

PK still alive in form of earthworm

[proud swan]

The pilgrims believe bells have some kind of mystical property of opening the way or protecting them. Which is probablly why widow is in bellheart, to catch bugs and make sure the haunting a ffects them

[azure dirge]

Radiance was engulfed by void and probably by shadelord. So that’s like double dead

[maiden meteor]

it seems bells do kinda have anti haunting properties

[azure dirge]

The bells seem to disrupt the hauntings melody in the strings, the vibrations that control bugs to cause them to become haunted.

[maiden meteor]

First Shrine is the only safe place in Citadel because of bell

[eternal sigil]

yeah, except unlike in Elden Ring (everyone is usually immortal) the dead are just reanimated with Silk and set back to work (or cremated when this stops working)

[azure dirge]

Was also webbed up before you free it

[brazen breach]

i wasnt trying to argue against that lmao i was just saying not everything is set in stone, like we dont directly know what PK thought of the vessels or what GMS thought of the weavers other than PK mourned the vessels and GMS likely needs silk, stuff like that is ambiguous

[maiden meteor]

as well as Bellhart’s

[brazen breach]

so its up to anyone to fill in the blanks or theories

[flint wadi]

well the fact that he had to refer to a very elaborate plan of trapping her means that he couldnt think of a way at that point in time

[proud swan]

Ok thats nice, so widow is preventing bells to disrupt the hauntings melody? That would be one more reason why bells were created by weavers in the first place

[azure dirge]

Yeah and I didn’t comment on anything like that. You are simply backtracking after being flat out wrong lol.

[maiden meteor]

He def wouldn’t want to use Void in such manner

[flint wadi]

likely the only way to kill radiance is via the void which pk could not really unite the same way ghost has, which leaves her practically unkillable

[azure dirge]

Yeah would make sense. Webbing up belheart would help the haunting spread.

[brazen breach]

i dont think i at any point said "pk didnt try to fight the radiance" or whatever but.. alright you can be right then

[maiden meteor]

feeding whole God to Abyss is generally not a good idea

[flint wadi]

i dont think he could even if he tried to

[pastel timber]

we only see higher beings die to void influence (assuming pk died to void and not grief)

[maiden meteor]

PK’s death is very… shady

[azure dirge]

Does the nightmare heart die if you help the one guy against it?

It might be possible to kill a higher being if you deprive them of their source of power.

[pastel timber]

no it gets "banished", back to the nightmare realm most likely

[flint wadi]

i definitely see pk resorting to a void weapon/creature to slay the radiance before the vessel plan it really just wasnt an option

[maiden meteor]

probably only stalls imo

[azure dirge]

Would make sense.

[brazen breach]

anyway stuff abt PK and hallownest isnt related to silksong so

[maiden meteor]

isn’t Divine still part of Troupe if you banish

[brazen breach]

thats whatever

[orchid whale]

I THINK this is what I was thinking of

[flint wadi]

i really like the regret birthing void theory

[azure dirge]

If you vanish NKG is removed from pantheon

[flint wadi]

it really just ate him from the inside

[azure dirge]

Regrets seems somewhat connected to void like essence to dreams and soul with focus.

[pastel timber]

ahh gotcha, this is from shakras perspective so it doesnt really say that the bells arent the citadels fault, but i see how youd get that

[maiden meteor]

tbf putting NKG in Pantheon if you haven’t fought him normally sounds kinda unfair

[pastel timber]

maybe thats why it exists throughout the entire world, but white lady is full of regret and shes like fine

[azure dirge]

I think he appears after your first fight with Grimm though in pantheon

[orchid whale]

Idk though, I feel like there's another mention of the bells at Pharloom's core though...
Am I just misremembering?

[maiden meteor]

Ahh, weird

[flint wadi]

pk came up with the idea
i feel like it will only manifest as void if you really let it fester which pk most certainly did

[pastel timber]

i dont remember anything relating to bells being older than the citadel

[deft walrus]

Is there anything that shows/states GMS being a good ruler? With Pale King, we have lots of items that praise him, and he did a pretty good job uplifting and establishing a kingdom. But aside from being a conqueror, is there anything that has GMS being good for her kingdom?

[maiden meteor]

I think PK got fucked because Palace was too close to the Abyss

[azure dirge]

You also have to remember knight accomplishing voidheart is something completely absurd and outside the bounds of what was thought possible from a vessel. Even the white lady is surprised by it.

[pastel timber]

white lady is also festering she bound herself to her holiday home out of regret, its a nice idea but its iffy at best when you put it into context properly

[maiden meteor]

so Void likely sensed his motherload of soul

[flint wadi]

also yeah its a cool connotation of void being a standin for fossil oils which is literally dead creatures (and death in hk world is said to taint it with regret)

[grim lynx]

I think it was only because he brought THK to the palace

[azure dirge]

It probably sensed the soul within the eggs of the children, and then the regrets created from the way they died replaced their soul to become shades.

[spring escarp]

I have the PERFECT strategy for the upcoming phanteon of pharloom, I will use a second PC to to train up to radiante right before I try to beat it on the equivalemt of PV, after I pass it I pause again and repeat!

[pastel timber]

interestingly jiji never actually says that death and regret are linked, and she pluralises regrets as if we could leave behind more than one

[spring escarp]

Guaranteed 5 tries or something.

[flint wadi]

this connection forms moreso from shade hunter journal notes

not a regret specifically, an inprint

[maiden meteor]

btw don’t we have confirmation now that Jiji is part of City of Steel hierarchy?

[flint wadi]

but it works nicely into regrets anyhow

[pastel timber]

ahh gotcha, its linked through the "stain"

[pastel timber]

shes the same species as sula for sure, likely jiinns vassal

[elfin minnow]

Can silkflies be haunted

[red saffron]

TC gonna force me to play all of steel soul mode for slightly more lore

[robust wagon]

Okay we don't have any confirmation that the city of steel is connected to the steel soul group, though that's a cool idea I hadn't thought of

[flint wadi]

automatons they occupy can be haunted but idk about silkflies themselves

[spring escarp]

The evidence is in the name brother

[pastel timber]

yeah but lets be real this is like saying we have no confirmation that the kingdom of the white wyrm is connected to the pale king

[flint wadi]

its like a badnik situation, an animal powers it but dr eggman is the one in charge of the robots programming

[robust wagon]

Okay but that's literally where Hornet comes from

[spring escarp]

It is kinda funny no fucking bug in this world can actually make real robots.

[orchid whale]

Another topic btw:
You guys think Pharloom ever had a Wyrm?
In Hollow Knight, it was said Wyrms often create kingdoms, literally being responsible for carving them out. I don't feel like GMS is capable of this kind of thing.
Not to mention, we already know that GMS was never the original ruler of Pharloom, as there were other kingdoms before it.
So is it possible there was a wyrm in Pharloom prior to GMS?

[pastel timber]

and they also dont say that hornet is the weaver in 1/2 part but like, lets be real, theres ambiguous and then theres "ambiguous"

[flint wadi]

wyrm is A way to birth a kingdom, not THE way

[spring escarp]

Carving the tunnels? Maybe

[orchid whale]

Well yeah, but I'm just speculating

[spring escarp]

Agreed.

[pastel timber]

PK wasnt the original ruler of hallownest either, there were tribes before him, one that outlasted his rule even

[spring escarp]

It might also have been just a wyrm passing by and then fucking off.

[flint wadi]

silk also came after pharloom already had an established population and tribes

[red saffron]

There certainly were ways for worms

[tardy badge]

sorry

[flint quartz]

the wyrm def felt the shi about to happen in pharloom and dipped

[red saffron]

I do wonder if GMS always ruled the citadel and just hadn't haunted it before or if that came later

[orchid whale]

Well, we don't know how deep they reached though, as their primary settlements are higher up

[flint wadi]

idk no HB is a wyrm unless stated so methinks

[spring escarp]

By the way what you personally think is the rain on greymoor?

[tardy badge]

foresight is a possible thing ye

[rancid dagger]

where is this stated i forgor

[flint wadi]

so theres no real reason to think grandma was one too

[flint quartz]

oh yea i completely forgot about this

[pastel timber]

the ancient civilisations primary settlment was not very high up

[flint wadi]

entirety of act 3 bud

[spring escarp]

She might have just become more active tho

But previously present

[maiden meteor]

Probably bilewater reservoir filtered by ground

[spring escarp]

Or perhaps she was there and the citadel is newer

[rancid dagger]

ah true snail shaman dialogues

[spring escarp]

The water color doesn't match I believe it is the condensation from the myst the exhausted organ creates.

[orchid whale]

True, but we don't know how hollowed out things were either.
I'm just going off of the info we're given- The Pale King likely made more room in the caverns regardless of if the caverns already existed or not. This made space to settle Hollownest.

[spring escarp]

I checked and it keeps raining after the myst is gone but this can just be residue.

[orchid whale]

Anyways
For the sake of speculation
What if this is a Wyrm corpse?

[pale valve]

guys c'mon we all know we're gonna see the Grey Lake in the first dlc /j

[spring escarp]

Doesn't look like it.

[flint quartz]

i mean it doesnt have the build of a wyrm (the head)

[orchid whale]

It isn't an exact match with the Pale King, but if we assume they can have different eyes/mouths, this does lack legs, giving it a worm-like shape

[spring escarp]

Wyrms are meant to be worm like, this isn't worm like.

[craggy smelt]

what if it's not

[flint wadi]

bilewater/sinners road waters filtered through cracks in the ground

[rancid dagger]

ancient civilization corpse probably

[spring escarp]

It needs to have dirt eating mouth

[spring escarp]

Can't be, not fully aligned + wrong water color.

[flint quartz]

yea the head appears have to have mostly eyes rather than one big mouth

[rancid dagger]

condensed vapor, normal rain

[foggy fractal]

then it'd be pretty weird how no one mentions a wyrm that was active in Pharloom

[spring escarp]

I think it is the exhaust organ vapour.

[orchid whale]

The inside of this bug is also MASSIVE.
And also just... kinda strange? Why is the floor so clean? What's with the butterflies? (Which have their own odd significance too.)
This just feels like a deliberately stand-out bug corpse, even more than the ancient corpses found throughout Hollownest.

[flint wadi]

as i said the water would be filtered through the ground
you also cant really tell what color the water is when all of greymoor is in perma grey filter

[orchid whale]

If it was before GMS, that would make sense

[robust wagon]

They kinda say that tho, first sinner calls her 'half spawn of a distant land'. I know the point you're trying to make, though

[flint wadi]

also whats that about alignment idont get it

[spring escarp]

A lot of greymoor is not below these two.

[rancid dagger]

not really it's pretty similar to the other huge corpses in hallownest, like the one that has the black egg temple

[spring escarp]

Wisp thicket and underworks.

[flint wadi]

water can travel through channels in the ground

[spring escarp]

Which also produces vapour like the organ.

[spring escarp]

another problem

this part of greymoor also raises above sinners road

[rancid dagger]

it can also just be normal rain the greymoor ceiling is high enough for water vapor to condense into clouds anyway

[spring escarp]

So a channel would have to enter via the side

[flint wadi]

bilewater refuse

[rancid dagger]

same goes for mount fay snow

[graceful grail]

Sisters??

[spring escarp]

Wisp thicket also has fog like the myst matching my theory perfectly

[red saffron]

All my homies HATE Greyroot

[spring escarp]

Not that part

[unborn isle]

Fluke Hermit all over again...

[flint wadi]

good point actually? but i feel like they wouldnt introduce a waterway vaguely above greymoor if that was the case

[spring escarp]

Greymoor rains up to the bellhart entrance far away of these teo

[flint wadi]

yeah groundwater channels

[static trellis]

I thought wisp thicket fog was just smoke from all the flames

[rancid dagger]

water moves a lot below the ground you'd be surprised

[red saffron]

I'm wondering what the whole deal with weavers playing harps was

[spring escarp]

Can't be, look how high grey moor goes above the sinner road area

And there is more fog above it aswell

[flint wadi]

bilewater

[spring escarp]

OTHER SIDE i sent a picture ffs

[rancid dagger]

i assumed it was basically what we do with needolin

[red saffron]

But for what purpose

[graceful grail]

Are these 3 SISTERS?? @rancid dagger what u think??

[rancid dagger]

water moves below the ground

[rancid dagger]

i dont think they are related at all ngl

[spring escarp]

Also if the water of bilewater were to infiltrate that far sideways

Then everything below it would be drenched in rain

[orchid whale]

Does the first one even count as a person? Iirc it’s more of a thing isn’t it?

[spring escarp]

Which doesn't happen

[graceful grail]

They are all Plant Bound

[flint wadi]

i dont have the map on me but theres ampt place for water to channel through (dont forget that the parts hornet traverses are just a 2d slice of a 3d space/area)

[rancid dagger]

opening and interacting with the weavernests

[spring escarp]

far fields and verdania is fine

[rancid dagger]

and citadel systems also require song

like the elevator to the cradle and the main citadel gate

[graceful grail]

Also, sister splinter is saying she has sisters plural

[edgy nebula]

sister splinter's needolin dialogue mentions "other, sleeping deep" and "sisters, long gone"

[rancid dagger]

could argue for greyroot but i really doubt nyleth has anything to do

[edgy barn]

Nyleth and Greyroot are noticeably not gone. Also, Sister Splinter has another dialogue where she mentions an "other" "sleeping deep" which is almost 100℅ actually reffering to Nylerh

[graceful grail]

Nyleth is sleeping deep

[orchid whale]

Yeah but the one that gives you a kid doesn’t have needolin dialogue at all

[spring escarp]

My explanation is much simpler and doesn't require water to go far

[flint wadi]

this is how it could flow through

[spring escarp]

the vapour of underworks and the exhausted organ is enough

[flint wadi]

starting from the part of the wisp thicket that transitions into sinners road

[spring escarp]

and closer

[graceful grail]

Also, Sister Splinters Minions are Guarding Greyroots House, or (keeping her in)

[edgy barn]

If Nyleth is an "other" and not a "sister" then she's likely not related.

[rancid dagger]

underworks vapour is the exhaust organ's, it's where it is expelled

[graceful grail]

Other sister

[spring escarp]

i am saying it is two sources of vapour

[flint wadi]

wisp thickets fog is locked to its caves and you dont really see water accumilate there

[rancid dagger]

and im saying it is not

[flint wadi]

its there but not in the same form as idk fog canyon

[rancid dagger]

the exhaust organ is where the underworks' vapour is expelled

[spring escarp]

just becuase the main exhaust is there doesnt mea the rest is airtight

[graceful grail]

It makes sense for them to be all sisters, which beggs the question of who is their MOTHER

[orchid whale]

Me

[spring escarp]

tbh i don't see anyway to conclusively prove one way or the other

[edgy barn]

She would already be covered by the sister dialogue in that case and should be "gone", which she is not

[graceful grail]

i bet White Lady is either the Gone Sister Or the Mother

[rancid dagger]

once you clear the exhaust organ most pipes in the underworks stop expelling vapour

[obsidian quail]

lost the plot

[spring escarp]

I know

[modern pivot]

does silksong happen before or after hk?

[edgy barn]

After

[modern pivot]

nice, thx

[spring escarp]

hence the residue theory plus the wisp thicket secondary source

[graceful grail]

@rancid dagger could White Lady be the other that is Gone??

[spring escarp]

and again why isn't verdaia and far fields raining since water prefers to go down

while stuff way far sideways would have rain

[rancid dagger]

definitely not

[graceful grail]

Why??

[orchid whale]

Water can be redirected

[rancid dagger]

because it doesn't? there could be multiple channels between rocks for water to flow through

water will go through the path of least resistance

[spring escarp]

so ther would need to be posited some weird anomaly

[orchid whale]

The ground of Greymoor seems like a lot of stone, so I think it being pushed to the sides makes sense

[spring escarp]

blocking the water down

[rancid dagger]

not really lol geography is pretty random

[orchid whale]

It could be that the water is actually being absorbed by the plant life below too, or building up somewhere

[spring escarp]

perhaps

I guess inconsistencies in both theories could be oversights tbh

like maybe team cherry is team infiltration but didn't think that specifically through

or maybe it can be both

wait what stops us from entering the citadel via underworks again

can't recall

[orchid whale]

Maybe Team Cherry is stupid.

[spring escarp]

not what i meant

[orchid whale]

Yeah I know I’m joking lol
I’m sure they’re Australian gods of intellect

[spring escarp]

unbelievable for australians i know

[rancid dagger]

theoretically you just cant reach the wisp thicket, if you do reach it there's an invis wall

[orchid whale]

There’s a lot of intelligence you can store in all of Ari’s overwhelming height

[spring escarp]

but the bugs there give superpowers i heard

how tall is he

it could also be something about moving areas around

but we'd need to examine the map timeline to guess

I suppose greymoor would be imagine with the citadel and the rain in mind

so we'd just need to investigate the inconsistent areas and how they evolved afterwards

or if they didn't

tbh

I think it is water

cause fog wouldn't be able to cross the walls

while water can

albeit the whisp thicked it open

so maybe one side is fog

and the other is water

filtered

[past cypress]

You can enter citadel through wisp thicket btw

[spring escarp]

I know, I meant early

[edgy nebula]

not without wings

[spring escarp]

Can it be done? Before the organ or the steps?

[past cypress]

You can get wings in act 1 via sequence breaks

[spring escarp]

crazy

[past cypress]

Either through plasmium and flea brew air stalling or an early sharp dart

[edgy nebula]

isn't it by bullshit which is ahrder than going through normally

[past cypress]

Very

[edgy nebula]

https://tenor.com/view/jgmm-cat-meme-ragebait-cat-think-cat-ponder-gif-7034802297606826390

[flint wadi]

you want the cynical awnser or a reach that just tries to make sense of it all

[spring escarp]

I just realized that when entered the citadel you are supposed to be kind of cut off from the rest of pharloom, but I didn't experience that as I got in via the myst

[spring escarp]

Both

[flint wadi]

pharloom was shifted around a lot in development and areas kinda jumped places in a lot of ways

far fields was always under greymoor though but tbf you really only see the bottom of it

verdania was shifted from wormways to east of greymoor tho

[spring escarp]

We only see the bottom of far fields?

oh verdania is explained theoretically then i guess

[flint wadi]

yeah, half of it is near the lava or bellow hunters march

[spring escarp]

well that is assuming cherry is thinking in 3d about it

idk maybe

[flint wadi]

the only place that would realistically rain is the cavern up to greymoor

but theres a lot of ground inbetween so maybe the water just gets held there

[spring escarp]

Yeah there is a pretty huge gap in there but there is also a lot of wind tunnels

maybe the wind tunnels keep the water away

[flint wadi]

it requires bridging the gaps even if it doesnt feel intuitive thats just how a lot of silksong is unfortunately

[spring escarp]

Yeah I guess they like to keep us guessing

[flint wadi]

verdania (present) doesnt rain cause water just flows diagonally west from bilewater/sinners road i guess

[spring escarp]

btw I don't buy the rain is silk, silk wouldn't fall that way

maybe verdania is just so soaked in water

[silver spire]

yea thats just ppl being ppl

[spring escarp]

it diverts it as it is saturated

WAI

[flint wadi]

i mean present verdania doesnt have it in any of its rooms

[spring escarp]

It is MEMORY VERDANIA

before the citadel

duhhhhhhh of course

[lilac marten]

When was first sinner imprisoned? If she was imprisoned for rebelling against GMS back when she was still in charge, wouldn't the other weavers have tried to free her when they took over?

[spring escarp]

we don't see modern verdania

[flint wadi]

we do, just a peek of it though

and that doesnt have water

[spring escarp]

yeah but it is like just one room, inconclusive

well, a few rooms

i think

[flint wadi]

ehhhhhh its safe to argue that its all like that otherwise the impact from its drastic change wouldnt be there

[spring escarp]

yeah there are multiple potential reasons verdania is dry

[flint wadi]

but if you mean water wise then yeah maybe some locked off rooms above hold it still

[spring escarp]

maybe as is died the soil dried up and became good at absorbing bilewater refuse

too much of a reach

Don't think team cherry is thinking any time of advanced geological and hydrological cycles

I guess I am doing a Matpat

[flint wadi]

bilewater in genreal seems to have some stone architecture that was likely installed by citadels pharloom

i think it was an aquaduct at some point

[spring escarp]

putrified ducts

guess they see bilewater as simply sewers

[flint wadi]

yeah but bilewater has some of that too

[spring escarp]

no wonder groal is PISSED

[flint wadi]

i think water couldve been redirected from verdania at some point

[spring escarp]

OH

maybe! as part of the deal with the green prince

we don't know what happened

maybe that rediction is what killed verdania as it starved for water

[flint wadi]

maybe muckmaggots need water to mature

[spring escarp]

some monkeys pawn thing

[flint wadi]

so sinners road had water directed there from bilewaters aquaducts

[spring escarp]

the citadel does what they asked but it kills their land

why would they flood the dungeon with bilewater tho

[flint wadi]

dungeon?

[edgy barn]

I mean they straight up live in water until they become adults

[spring escarp]

just to make it unpleansatn?

[eternal sigil]

my theory is that basially the headwaters of whatever system fed Verdania got clogged up by both pollution from the Citadel and overgrowth of life as thus (goop and sludge, the sludge critters, etc), leading to them gradually drying up with time

[spring escarp]

No the sinners road i RIGHT next to the organ

you are overcomplicating that part

[edgy barn]

Sinner's Road is not a dungeon, it's a muckroach farm

[spring escarp]

that is where its maggot water comes from, while bile water gets part of its maggot water from the residential parts of the citadel

[flint wadi]

i wouldnt say it would flood it, exhaust organ is above sinners road

[eternal sigil]

also going off of dialogue it seems that muckmaggots are presently a major food source because basically everything else which is actually palatable can't be grown at the moment

[spring escarp]

via the putrified ducts, that are above the organ

[eternal sigil]

apparently they used to grow food in Greymoor?

[spring escarp]

oh yeah

[flint wadi]

they grew it in sinners road

[spring escarp]

why they stopped again

[eternal sigil]

hence the windmills and stuff

[flint wadi]

thats why theres muckroaches

[edgy barn]

The muckroach meat produced in sinner's road was destined for greymoor

[flint wadi]

nono the windmills are for silk recycling

[spring escarp]

they grow it now yes

[edgy barn]

Haunting

[eternal sigil]

I think Greymoor was tasked instead for gathering silk dregs from the waterways running out from the Citadel and stuff

[spring escarp]

the hauting shouldn't affect agriculture more than pecuary of roaches tho

[flint wadi]

sinners road is the farm that creige brings up

[spring escarp]

oh makes sense

[eternal sigil]

if both the livestock and their keepers go berserk, what can you do?

[edgy barn]

Oh you mean why they stopped growing crops?

[spring escarp]

who is creige again

ys

[eternal sigil]

also if farmers start getting Haunted they are either going to destroy or neglect crops

[flint wadi]

halfway home barkeep

[pastel timber]

The guys who give you the steel spikes and tacks say this directly

[edgy barn]

The answer to that one is pollution

[spring escarp]

oh him

[flint wadi]

hes the one that will give you a hint about sinners road

[spring escarp]

what a comfy place

he gives a hint

I just found it

[eternal sigil]

so you basically subsist off of Muckroaches because while kind of repulsive they can take care of themselves in spite of an inhospitable environment and there isn't much difference between them in a Haunted or non-Haunted state

[pastel timber]

Hear me out chat
It’s called sinners road because it’s the only way for sinners to get to the citadel without being whacked by the judges

[spring escarp]

roaches are like pigs essentially

food wise

[eternal sigil]

muckroaches are like a cross between a pitbull and a pig

[pastel timber]

Really shitty quality pigs that try to kill you

[spring escarp]

might have some historical event inspiration who knowns

well pigs do try to kill you

just not very good at it

[flint wadi]

yes i really like that interpretation

[eternal sigil]

apparently they are pretty hard shelled and their guts are the only really usable type of food you get from them; they have to be processed and cleaned but it's something

[flint wadi]

though no pilgrims are known to walk through there, so its only a sinners road in relation to hornet

[edgy barn]

Benjin : It's said that the moors used to grow a bounty of fresh food, way back before that Citadel set us about catchin' their fallin' thread. Sounds right lovely, eh missy? Always eatin', never troubled by no grumblin' belly?
Crull : Har har! Yer like a hatchling Benj'n! So given to fancies! Now breedin' roaches is what keeps us from starvin'. Dangerous work and not the finest diet, but we ain't complainin'.
Crull : Specially as more and more of them keepers are succumbing to the strange sickness. Only means more meat for us. Har!

[spring escarp]

I don't cause it implies that everyone is 1v1 phantom

[eternal sigil]

the maggots on the other hand are soft but very disgusting because they live in Maggot Soup™

[spring escarp]

you will eat ze bugs

[flint wadi]

unless the exhaust organ wasnt always guarded by phantom

[spring escarp]

and live in za citadel

[edgy barn]

Forget about beating Phantom. They would have to get through the mist first

[pastel timber]

Phantom didn’t always want to die and so wouldn’t always try to kill everyone

[spring escarp]

and you zill like it

[spring escarp]

would he just let them pass mid his work environent

[edgy barn]

They would still have to get pass the mist tho

[flint wadi]

either way it feels like a very obscure thing that very few sneaky pilgrims would try

[spring escarp]

maybe he just didn't give a fuck

[pastel timber]

Yeah that’s why there’s a lift straight to the underworks that goes through her boss room

[spring escarp]

it was the first thing i did

[pastel timber]

Eh it’s possible, if difficult, such is the life of a sinner

[spring escarp]

like i din't get anywhere the intended way and i take pride in that

[flint wadi]

wasnt always a thing

[spring escarp]

i mean he has to visit home himself tho

I know nearly every way is intended

yall know what i meant

[pastel timber]

Not really nobody gives a shit about her she’s a silk construct

[flint wadi]

also sinners road being a theoretical alternate way to the citadel doesnt mean there were pilgrims who braved it or actually survived it (at all)

[spring escarp]

for administrative purpouses

like yeah the citadel is shitting well today

[flint wadi]

its a sinners road if you were try it as a pilgrim and evade judgement

[spring escarp]

high grade maggot water

[pastel timber]

If it was easy everyone would do it

[spring escarp]

true

[flint wadi]

yeah

[edgy barn]

None of sinner's road actual lore implies it being a pilgrim route, it's just a polluted muckroach farm that feeds greymoor

[spring escarp]

I was more like saying nobody would be able to do it

[flint wadi]

yeah its more of a meta level name

[spring escarp]

it is definetly a place where the sinners are just tortured

what makes a sinner a sinner though

[flint wadi]

rejecting the citadel, being unfaithful

[spring escarp]

by doing what

[edgy barn]

The slab already exists for that though

[spring escarp]

keeping rosaries? Not trying to go up?

[pastel timber]

By wielding a weapon, travelling luxuriously, being ill, anything that’s a sin

[flint wadi]

a pilgrim that doesnt want to be judged cause theyre afraid/are a non believer would be a sinner

[spring escarp]

being ill?

lmao

[edgy barn]

Yeah that's a confirmed sin

[spring escarp]

how

[flint wadi]

honestly if you deviate from what an ideal pilgrim should be you are a sinner yes

[spring escarp]

I know they said nobody can be sick on the citadel

but i don't think it is a sin of the sufferer

[flint wadi]

its literally stated to be a test of devotion and faith

[spring escarp]

They even try to cure them

[pastel timber]

It’s interesting also that “sinners road” leads you directly to the underworks, whereas the “righteous” path is supposed to take you to choral chambers (the lift is broken), maybe all the sinners who made it through sinners road ended up slaving away eternally in the underworks

[flint wadi]

you are tested by taking the hardest harshest route possible

[spring escarp]

IF they did that ofc

[flint wadi]

with no means to make it easy for you, you have to pray yourself through it

[spring escarp]

wait

[pastel timber]

It makes sense and explains the distinction between pilgrims that got to be choirbugs and those condemned to the underworks

[spring escarp]

i got to grand bell station on the sinners road

what you mean underworks

[flint wadi]

yeah its a really cool parallel

[flint wadi]

it leads to both iirc?

[spring escarp]

I don't remember that

[flint wadi]

the part when you get out of the elevator

[spring escarp]

I just kind took the lift and was on the choir chambers

well you can just as easly get to the bell station right?

[flint wadi]

yeah it leads you to choral chambers first but theres a path that opens into the underworks

[spring escarp]

so doesn't seem like a punishment

[edgy barn]

Penitent, Fourth of the Fourth.
Guilty of the sins of infirmity, sickness.
Penance by swallowing.
Absolution granted after death.
Penitent, Twelfth of the First.
Guilty of an unnamed sin.
Penance by casting.
Absolution not granted.

[spring escarp]

if it is 50 50

wait a second

isn't the sinners road and the slab redundant?

why two correctional facilities?

[orchid whale]

So, if we assume that the Citadel exists as a prison for GMS, why are they so religious? Who is their religious leader? Who dictated that dying in ITSELF is a sin, in Pharloom? I figured Ms. Grandmother "Wants to enslave everyone" Silk would fit this role, as she's a god who would not only be at the top, worshiped, and likely to demand such strong devotion. But if she's asleep and the whole point of the Citadel is to lull her to sleep... What's the religion and persecution for then?

[spring escarp]

maximum security versus minimum?

[edgy barn]

The sinners road is a muckroach farm,not a prison.

[sinful nimbus]

Sinner's Road is meant for farming meat

[deep elk]

The Nameless Town kinda looks a bit similar to Howling Cliffs no?
It looks like the vast land of the world looks pretty much the same throughout.

[flint wadi]

i guess its less
righteous route gives way to best option/sinners route gives way to worst option and moreso a "work smarter not harder" kind of situation

[spring escarp]

the ever so guilty green prince

[flint wadi]

cause you go straight to choral chambers from exhaust organ

[spring escarp]

inprisioned on sinners road

plus a lot of torturer style enemies

[deep elk]

Wasn't Citadel made before her imprisonment? Also who imprisoned her?

[edgy barn]

If Green Prince was locked in any official capacity, he would be in the slab, or most likely executed

[spring escarp]

people say the citadel is the jail of gms

[spring escarp]

so who locked the green prince? he was pissed at the citadel

[edgy barn]

Those are all roach tenders

[orchid whale]

I guess the Weavers imprisoned her, but what happened to them then?
And what's the religion about then?

[spring escarp]

pretty sure he was officially locked away

he is an enemy of the state after all

[edgy barn]

Those go to the slab, specially someone as dangerous as green prince

[spring escarp]

i ma sure his dialogue explains more

yet he isn't on the slab

something doesn't add up

[edgy barn]

Hence, is unlikely he was actually sentenced by the citadel

[spring escarp]

who then

[deep elk]

Weavers were hunted by those at the citadel. We do know that.

[spring escarp]

his only possible enemy is the citadel

or maybe... his lover sent him there?

and gave him a minimum security prision?

[orchid whale]

Okay, so...
That means the Weavers didn't control the Citadel.
So, why is the Citadel religious?

[spring escarp]

that would be cinema

[flint wadi]

ill be honest its a very sorry cage to lock away a political leader and avid opposition of the citadel in

[deep elk]

Yea coz why would he be imprisoned at Sinner's Road? Wouldn't he be imprisoned at Slab if Citadel imprisoned him?

[spring escarp]

yep, something is fishy

[pastel timber]

My own theory is that the weavers manufactured the religion so that the pilgrims would perpetuate the song that kept gms asleep

[spring escarp]

maybe they wanted him to be on the slab but change it for gameplay reasons

[orchid whale]

But if the Citadel killed the Weavers, why would they continue to follow the religion?

[spring escarp]

can't be that

[flint wadi]

^^^ the choir didnt appear out of nowhere

[spring escarp]

cause the entry to the slab is one room up

[potent patio]

Okay but then why do so many pilgrims follow the religion?

[flint wadi]

they didnt though?

[pastel timber]

Oh I’m not saying the citadel killed the weavers that was someone else

[orchid whale]

So what happened to them?

[pastel timber]

Because it’s the mainstream religion in pharloom it doesn’t mean it’s true

[flint wadi]

the weavers died on their own terms, most of them are imoralized in spires as mummies

[spring escarp]

they didn't all die tho

they left via weavernet karn at least

[edgy barn]

Most of his dialogue implies he was effectively only imprisoned because he didn't have the will to do anything about his situation, I think he just wandered off into the roach tenders land, did something that provoked them and did not resist when they threw him in a cell.

[flint wadi]

nope, just talking about the ones in pharloom

[potent patio]

Yeah but what is the appeal of it?

[orchid whale]

Where are they then? I thought it was only the ones that didn't want the persecution of the citadel that left?

[potent patio]

How did it get mainstream?

[spring escarp]

hm

[pastel timber]

They died on purpose so that someone of silken strength could bind their strength to defeat gms, they say “we who remain will die, and wait for someone of silken strength to save us”

[spring escarp]

like, the more we analyse the plot, the less everything makes sense

[pastel timber]

Cause the weavers were magic so like, of course you’d revere them, just look at the effigies

[spring escarp]

is it genius or lazyness

maybe the dlcs will add more contextxes

[orchid whale]

Did they like, have a vision of the future? Why couldn't they do it?

[flint wadi]

the cult of the citadel, the citadel is essentially seen as heaven on earth, and it seems theres a generations long culture of pilgrims that all at some point in life depart to reach its gilded peak

[deep elk]

That's because GMS made it so.
In Hallownest, Pale King gave a lot of bugs sentience (I know some bugs already had it). They were shaped through his ideals and it became their nature to do work. It's why we see them work even after the infection.

Same here for Pharloom. The Pilgrims were controlled by GMS as they were given a desire to work. We see it throughout Pharloom that bugs become so religious to work.

[pastel timber]

It’s because you’re meant to fill in the gaps yourself, if you constantly poke holes in everything anyone says you’re gonna have zero clue what’s going on

[potent patio]

Yeah I guess, there is some evidence that the religion existed in hallownest before the pk outshined it

[flint wadi]

to reach the citadel is to reach enlightment

[rancid dagger]

no but it was the only way to deal with GMS permanently, to have someone bind her
Eva seems to be a failed attempt at this

[pastel timber]

The pale kings influence doesn’t reach pharloom at all

[potent patio]

Yeah mb I meant hallownest

[spring escarp]

what?

[orchid whale]

Why can't they bind her?

[flint wadi]

to no longer suffer from mortal blights, its transcendant in their eyes

[rancid dagger]

because they arent strong enough to absorb a god

[potent patio]

Maybe they were promised immortality?

If they reached the citadel

[deep elk]

What religion do you mean exactly?

[potent patio]

The pilgrims I mean

[potent patio]

Pharlooms

[deep elk]

Can you elaborate?

[orchid whale]

Is there any proof of this?
It's not like Herrah went to Hollownest expecting she'd have a kid with a Wyrm

[flint wadi]

not really no, i already said why pilgrims did it, its essentially reaching heaven in their eyes (scrap the eternal life part)

its also a generations long culture, bugs are born into it and just accept it as fact

[silver spire]

because then they become just like her in nature

[pastel timber]

The pilgrims are all following their religion, they worship(ped?) the weavers as per the effigies, and see the citadel as the holy land
Crimes are called sins and the currency is prayer beads, a measure of faith

[deep elk]

Hornet can coz she's the offspring of PK.
Same reason the vessels can contain the Radiance's infection.

[orchid whale]

You say it like that happened

[potent patio]

For example, markoth, a member of the original moth tribe, is wearing a rosary necklace im pretty sure

[silver spire]

the weaver queen ending confirms this, where hornet's desire becomes similar to GMS

[deep elk]

I need to read the effigies. I'l do it tmr.

[orchid whale]

We don't know what Hornet's desire is in that ending, just that she becomes queen, most likely

[flint wadi]

binding is a hornet thing, noone else is able to do it

[deep elk]

So how does Hallownest follow it exactly?

[silver spire]

? i dont think thats true

[pastel timber]

oh hallownest doesnt follow it, did i misread something somewhere whoops

[potent patio]

I think that Eva MIGHT be able to do it aswell

[flint wadi]

eva literally remarks how unique her nature is

[orchid whale]

Well yeah, but how did they know Hornet would come along to be able to do that? Did they see into the future?

[flint wadi]

its definitely a hornet thing

[edgy barn]

We literally see First Sinner bind in her fight. She even heals from it

[gilded beacon]

One of the Choruses in 12A's room has Needlolin dialogue

[flint wadi]

bind CRESTS

[pastel timber]

i mean we do she tells the caretaker part of her desires "domination" when he asks about usurping gms

[deep elk]

.

[flint wadi]

not bind to heal wounds

different things, silk is a very versatile thing

[potent patio]

Due to her ability to sense the natures

[orchid whale]

Well that just means a desire to rule

[edgy barn]

Should have clarrified (if you did and I missed it I apologize)

[pastel timber]

oh i figured they meant religion at all, not the religion

[flint wadi]

but to bind someone is to absorb their nature, and only hornet seems to be the creature capable of that

[deep elk]

OH! That's interesting.
So the moths could be somewhat related to Pharloom.

[flint wadi]

i doubt that lol

also markoth isnt wearing rosaries its just a bead necklace

[pastel timber]

seer tells us the moths were born of the radiances light, whether there are other moth tribes in the universe that arent born of the radiance is unlikely but unknown

[silver spire]

i doubt that, its more like just bead necklace

the moths were born from the radiance

[potent patio]

Let me cope pls

[silver spire]

besides, markoth's necklace doesnt even look like rosaries

[flint wadi]

weavers are already from pharloom

soon enough people will draw parallels for everyone we see in hallownest and say they all are pharloom immigrants actually

its just silly to me

[deep elk]

Maybe. Could also perhaps be just an oversight.
Reminder that all dreamer bosses were made by backers and a lil more.
So it could just be the backer wanting some creative liberty and not knowing the more in depth lore of a game that wouldn't come out till 7 years after.

[pastel timber]

the pale king is an immigrant from pharloom

[pastel timber]

yeah its not like every part of every design has to be linked to every similar part of every other design

[valid kelp]

pale king is the best pale being 🥹

[flint wadi]

what oversight, its not even the same size

beads can exist and not be rosaries

[deep elk]

Yea exactly.

[valid kelp]

it could be the silver rosaries

[deep elk]

Not read but could just be coz it's a dream. and they all have this greyish look.

[valid kelp]

the heavy ones

[flint wadi]

no those have patterns and theyre still smaller

[silver spire]

those dont have the same texture 😭

[flint wadi]

markoth is literally red

his corpse is red, the beads on his corpse are grey

[potent patio]

No I’m just pointing out that if the religion is so widespread it would make sense if it had some influence in hallownest pre pk and sure markoth could just have a bead necklace but it would be interesting world building if it was true

[deep elk]

Could it fit tho?

[flint wadi]

it wasnt widespread it was specifically a pharloom thing

[flint wadi]

no

[violet herald]

if hallownest grants knowledge and you lose memories of it when you leave would hornet remember the events of the og game in silksong

[potent patio]

I’m aware of the plotholes tho

[rancid dagger]

herrah came to hallownest running away from pharloom, she saw an opportunity with the pale king and took it

[valid kelp]

if this was true then where do pilgrims come from?

[rancid dagger]

it wasnt her plan obviously but it just ended up happening

[deep elk]

Yea exactly. Also the scale doesn't even feel right for the necklace.

[flint wadi]

around pharloom

[orchid whale]

If we want to speculate a character being from somewhere, I think it's possible Elder Hu could be from the same tribe as Shakra.
He seems to be a wanderer who isn't even from Hollowest too

[deep elk]

I feel like Markoth possibnly having connection to rosary beads is simply a creative liberty from the backers.

[flint wadi]

nearby areas at best

[deep elk]

Oh boy- another necklace.

[lethal burrow]

concentric circles

[flint wadi]

pilgrims are all bound by the same religon and customs they likely come from a community/ties of some kind

[edgy barn]

Are we actually arguing if Markoth's generic bead necklace connects him to Pharloom.

[potent patio]

Yeah probably 😔

[pastel timber]

well they clearly dont come from outside pharloom, they start down in bonebottom not steps

[deep elk]

Waaaait- so what do we KNOW about him tho? The guy I keep accidentally calling Hu Tao.

[flint wadi]

i wouldnt bet on this either but at least it has more ground

[valid kelp]

i guess

[orchid whale]

Not much, just the way he looks and that he wandered into Hollownest and died to the infection

[pastel timber]

not much honestly

[pastel timber]

and also that hes old

[deep elk]

Yea. I feel like conclusion is pretty much that it's just creative liberty.
Same feels like for Hu Tao- I mean, Elder Hu.

[pastel timber]

elder hu looking like shakra and likely being from the same tribe is the widespread opinion from what i can tell

[potent patio]

Not much but he was killed by the mantis lords due to being infected (time to point out shakras similarities to mantises)

[deep elk]

"Remember the elder"
I don't think he just wandered to Hallownest but seems to have grown old in Hallownest and then the infection came or something.

[flint wadi]

he was specifically a part of the mantis tribe, a respected figure there, so much so that even after death they errected a memorial in his name

[valid kelp]

this doesnt sound like he comes from a warrior tribe

[flint wadi]

he didnt just walk into it

[orchid whale]

I mean
Traveling sage

[flint wadi]

within hallownest

[pastel timber]

it is said that people from shakras tribe wander to other kingdoms to do something i forgot what she said

[deep elk]

Yea Shakra is 100% somewhat connected to mantis tribe, like a sister tribe perhaps?

[deep elk]

Don't use fandom.
Lemme just confirm this real quick.

[flint wadi]

she..... isnt..
theres absolutely no ground for that

[pastel timber]

we cant say shakra and elder hu probably arent connected but shakra and the mantis tribe 100% are

[flint wadi]

her tribe is near pharloom its not the mantis tribe

[rancid dagger]

"my source is that i made it the fuck up"

[orchid whale]

The way Elder Hu talks to you, it does come across as "Are you also from outside of Hollownest?"
Like, he's trying to explain the infection as if it's not common knowledge- as if he, too, made a similar realization in the past, and is trying to warn others of it.

"Wait, child! Why have you come here? Have you come to tame this savage, ruined land?
Many have come to purify this place, but all who dwell here are eventually consumed."

[deep elk]

I mean like- it's more so that their tribes are clearly similar.

[silver spire]

by that logic green prince must also be related since he's a mantis right

[potent patio]

My headcanon is that elder huu took her in -or at least her grandparents- to the warriors clan (yes I’m aware of the timeline gymnastics)

[orchid whale]

While we're speculating
Is this a Pharloom?

[pastel timber]

warrior tribes, but thats as far as it goes
one uses rings as weapons, practices cartography, and travels outside their home to settle in other kingdoms
the other just chill and repel deepnest creatures

[deep elk]

Fair

[silver spire]

the mantises of hallownest attack with lances and claws, while shakra seems to attack with rings

[valid kelp]

stay with me now

[silver spire]

we already know where these guys come from 😭

there's literally a hunter's journal entry for the baby version of them, what are we smoking chat

[potent patio]

I think hes trying to connect them to the godseekers

[pastel timber]

we're smoking satire and irony

[silver spire]

exactly, the godseekers come from the land of storms so its literally illogical

[potent patio]

Yeah

[orchid whale]

I'm joking btw, there are distinct differences between Godseeker attire and the Citadel's.
But the similarities are also there. Holy aesthetic, gold armored helmets with tear drop shapes, beige cloth beneath.
Though the patterns on their helmets are a bit different, and the Godseekers have eye holes in their masks, while Citadel armor doesn't.
But it does make me wonder if there could be a connection?

[silver spire]

not really, only similarity is that they both worship the divine

[pastel timber]

theres almost definitely not a connection
if godseekers went to pharloom they wouldnt have left while gms was there to attune to

[deep elk]

Yes. In fact, everyone's from Pharloom.
Bretta is from Pharloom.
Zote's from Pharloom.
PK is from Pharloom.
Herrah is from- ok she actually is.

The Radiance is a child of GMS and was just angry that she didn't get her fav toy.

The White Lady was exiled from Pharloom because [redacted].

[pastel timber]

but like who doesnt when gods are real and they get mad at you for not worshipping them

[deep elk]

We could still see them arrive in pharloom.

[potent patio]

I wouldn’t be surprised if a godseeker did arrive in pharloom and then was captured in a similar fashion to first sinner

[orchid whale]

Well no I just listed other similarities.
I don't think there's an established connection though. But I think the potential for them to have met is there.

I'm also not saying they're from Pharloom, we already know that Godseeker is from the Land of Storms.

[deep elk]

I'm ngl, I hope we see somewhat of the grimm troupe in pharloom in some way.

[pastel timber]

perhaps soon but they arent here already, theres no current connection

[silver spire]

the kingdom's not completely dead, grimm troupe only feeds on the nightmares of dead kingdoms

[pastel timber]

i dont think we will, we save pharloom from dying, they appear in hallownest to feast on the flames of the kingdoms death

[deep elk]

I mean they could already be. Just that it's not in the game yet.

[deep elk]

It's dying?
Act 3 only?

[valid kelp]

if it is the grimmchild it would be very cool

[deep elk]

Hornet recognizing Grimmchild would be so adorable.

[pastel timber]

act 3 is canonically a very brief period of time, the nightmare troupe are definitely not going to get a herald to travel to pharloom and plant the torch to summon them between act 3 starting and ending

[flint wadi]

^ not to mention the lack of essence in pharloom, certainly hornet wouldnt have any ways of perpetuating the ritual

[deep elk]

Fair enough

[valid kelp]

that would be very interesting but honestly idk how it can be implemented in a different way

[pastel timber]

the same can be said of godhome if the seekers do arrive

[orchid whale]

It could also be that, throughout the world of Hollow Knight and Silksong, perhaps the attire of the Godseekers is more universal than we realize? Perhaps it's actually common for a lot of bugs who worship all sorts of different gods to wear this kind of attire.
Or maybe they're part of the same religion, different branches of it, or swapping some gods out for others?

I definitely think that, given both revolve around religion, the similarities could be intentional.

[flint wadi]

yeah, and i feel like they wouldnt bother with bringing it back, pharloom has its own concepts to explore stuff with

[orchid whale]

Hornet can't enter dreams so Godhome is out of the question, unless it physically manifests. Which WOULD be sick

[flint wadi]

and its not like essence is gone its just not relevant for pharloom

[pastel timber]

both had metalworking which appeared in the form of brass, its a completely different colour of clothes, and the spiky head is more of a design choice than anything, theres not even a crest on the judges which is the entire purpose of the godseekers mask design, theres just nothing to actually connect the judges to the godseekers

[valid kelp]

cant the needolin enter dreams?

[flint wadi]

its memories, not dreams

[pastel timber]

deep memories

[potent patio]

Can we agree that gorb is an unmasked godseeker though?

[pastel timber]

no? what

[valid kelp]

i dont see the difference. white defender is a memory too

[edgy barn]

white defender is a literal dream dung defender is having

[orchid whale]

I don't think it's a completely different color of clothes, especially given a lot of Silksong's color differences come down to a change in art style. (Hornet's cloak has always been red, but Silksong makes it look more saturated, for example. This is a common thing all across the game.)
And I'm not saying their helmets serve the same purpose, just that they may be part of a similar, if not a different branch of the same religion- or perhaps many religions in this world follow similar attire. I don't think that's a stretch.

[flint wadi]

theyre not made of essence, which is what godhome solely dabbles in

also white defender is "dreams of former glory" rather than a concrete memory

[deep elk]

Guys what if the real reason GMS needed Hornet's silk was all so she could impress the Invincible, Fearless, Sensual, Mysterious, Enchanting, Vigorous, Diligent, Overwhelming, Gorgeous, Passionate, Terrifying, Beautiful, Powerful, Grey Prince Zote.

[orchid whale]

GMS actually needed both Hornet's Silk and her body

[potent patio]

He has a lot of visual similarities and also is obsessed with ascending.

[deep elk]

ASCEND!!!! ASCEND!!!! ASCEND WITH GORB!!!!!

[valid kelp]

alr

do we see essence in pharloom

at all ?

[flint wadi]

nope, at all lmao

[deep elk]

Red Death kinda looks like it

[flint wadi]

its not there hornet cant see it and theres noone who aknowledges it

[valid kelp]

huh.. i expected it on GMS at least since most higher beings have it

[potent patio]

ASCENDED! ASCEND! ASCEND!

[edgy barn]

what are you talking about exactly

[deep elk]

Like the themeing of that place.

[flint wadi]

whats red death

[pastel timber]

the godseekers seek gods to attune to them
gorb wanted people to revere him so he could ascend with them
and more than that the godseekers in godhome dont recognise him at all

[edgy barn]

What is Red Death

[valid kelp]

red memory is what they mean probably

[deep elk]

Oh. My sleepy brain said red death- 😭
I meant Red Memory.

Red Death is a DC thing. 😔

[potent patio]

Wrong message lmao

[deep elk]

xD

[flint wadi]

yeah red memory is abstract but its specifically channeled through silk

[orchid whale]

Also yeah, Hornet only enters memories. Which is distinctly different because it means she only ever visits places in the past when using the Needolin. Meanwhile the dream nail allowed the Knight to enter minds, which is filled a lot more with current desires.

[pastel timber]

essence is a very specific shape of a dreamcatcher which we dont see, red memory is full of silk instead

[deep elk]

Maybe just another means of entering.

[valid kelp]

you mean soul? snail shamans are the cause

[potent patio]

I rlly hope we get more pk lore in dlcs

[pastel timber]

silk is soul

[flint wadi]

silk is soul and red memory is found within hornets thread

[valid kelp]

what

soul is what living things are made of

[pastel timber]

silk is "spun from the soul of its creator", silk is soul in another form

[orchid whale]

So if Hornet entered Godhome somehow
The only way for that to be possible is if she entered the mind of someone who has been to Godhome once before.
And it wouldn't be the real godhome, it would be a reconstruction of the past.

[deep elk]

The PK lore:
Hornet: "He was a terrible father. But when it mattered the most, at least he gave me his genes I guess. He spend all my pocket money too on the stupid shawblades."

[potent patio]

Honestly that would be fine

[valid kelp]

ok but how does that mean snail shamans use silk.. isnt this exclusive to hornet?

[edgy barn]

She could also just get attuned by the ritual and enter godhome legitametely unlike the knight.

[deep elk]

I don't think Silk IS Soul, but rather just interconnected.

[deep elk]

I'd love to see another wyrm tho.

[potent patio]

YES