sk-lore

[sudden pivot]

HE IS LITERALLY STATED TO HAVE WASTED HIS TIME AND DOOMED HIS KINGDOM OH MY FUCKING GOD DUDE

[gentle aspen]

literal no limits fallacy here

[zinc pivot]

You seem to leave something out of the equation, the sheer PRIDE of higher beings
Pale King was too prideful and that’s exactly why he carried on believing no cost was too great

[sudden pivot]

"no limits fallacy" thats a fucking powerscaling fallacy that doesnt apply here

[gentle aspen]

He didn’t waste his time he did what he could with the information he had at the time

[obsidian quail]

i was playing HK earlier and for some reason i keep hearing that damn mask noise in my ear

[gentle aspen]

It clearly applies here

[ebon silo]

Wait I guess if pale king had foresight and saw the future and the only option was do this then deliberately fail this so that this particular vessel comes back to your kingdom and save it? Or does this not count at all

[zinc pivot]

PRIDE has always served as the major thing that leads to downfall in fiction no matter what power one may possess

[sudden pivot]

mushroom statement mushroom statement mushroom statement mushroom statement mushroom statement I am loosing my fucking mind

[gentle aspen]

you’ve really gotta stop using other pieces of fiction as points here

[ebon silo]

https://tenor.com/view/damn-kendrick-lamar-gif-7207821263621534941

[sudden pivot]

it literally does not and the fact you think it does makes me not take you seriously at all

[obsidian quail]

so Koal is saying PK perfectly foresaw the events but still couldn’t help but irrationally hope it’ll work and his future sight doesn’t come true?

[zinc pivot]

And you are using plot points intentionally left open to prove something that can’t be proven

[sudden pivot]

yes, why is that crazy when its directly fucking stated by the Mushroom?

[gentle aspen]

It literally does, you’re saying his foresight has no limits because it wasn’t stated

[sudden pivot]

WHICH MATTERS IF WE WERE POWERSCALING BUT DOES NOT WHEN IT RELATES TO THE NARRATIVE I am trying so hard not to be actually insulting right now I am so pressed

[obsidian quail]

hey i find that compelling i’m not on a side here, i thought they specified to some extent in game

[gentle aspen]

And the mushroom saying “he foresaw an unavoidable demise” doesn’t mean his foresight was perfect and had no limits

[sudden pivot]

if I say I have foresight you assume that means I have perfect foresight, not limited, because there's no further context stating its limited

[gentle aspen]

that’s literally not

[quick thorn]

i actually theorize it was a "often on the path to escape fate, one often seals it" (literally lol)

[zinc pivot]

And? Predeterministic future vision happens all the time

[obsidian quail]

well it is ambiguous because there are levels to foresight

like Paul had foresight in Dune and it definitely wasn’t perfect nor was it perfectly precise

[sudden pivot]

but you would assume with no further context it is full foresight

[zinc pivot]

It’s literally ambiguous so you can’t use it as your reason

[quick thorn]

pale king saw a future, didn't like it, wanted to change things so the future wouldn't happen... and ended up causing it

[sudden pivot]

right, we have a lot more context about how his Foresight works, not so for the Wyrms

[ebon silo]

Guys if PK had full foresight then I guess he found out that the only way to save his kingdom is to deliberately fail? I guess that would count? What do you think or is it just pointless?

[obsidian quail]

well i’m saying due to that context we know it isn’t perfect, and since we know foresight has a range, we can only guess at PK’s level since it isn’t specific

[sudden pivot]

he was trying to put the kingdom in stasis metaphorically and somewhat literally to prevent the end he knew was inevitable

[sudden pivot]

there's no context suggesting PK's foresight wasn't perfect

[narrow sky]

could be why his dream nail dialog is "no cost too great"

[obsidian quail]

but there’s no context suggesting it is and Foresight isn’t something that is inherently perfect, it’s just being able to see the future

[narrow sky]

he literally had to doom his kingdom to save it

[obsidian quail]

to what extent we are not sure

[ebon silo]

I see so if he did knew the end was inevitable then obviously any man in his place would try to prevent it atleast but fate often leads you there

[obsidian quail]

there’s a whole sub branch where people say perfect foresight but we don’t know that for PK

[ebon silo]

I guess his foresight said "nah dude you gotta doom your kingdom if you want to save it" and that was just his only option

[sudden pivot]

right but if I say I can see the future without any more context you assume I mean the whole future not parts of it, just like if I say I can control water you assume I mean all water not just very specific water, if it's not specified that its lesser than it is less of an assumption to say it has it in full, if this were Scientific we would take my explanation as the presently supported hypothesis because it does not require the assumption that PK's foresight was limited, it merely works off what we know that he had foresight

[obsidian quail]

yeah me assuming it’s perfect doesn’t mean it is though

seeing the future to any extent is still seeing the future even if it isn’t perfect

i’d actually ask how perfect is it as a follow up

but i’m not against u i’m saying we don’t know enough to pick a side and say it’s true

[sudden pivot]

there is no reason at all to assume he couldn't see every moment of his life from the moment he was born, if we are simply going off the dictionary definition of foresight, which is the ONLY context we have to go on, that is what it would imply

[zinc pivot]

I guess we can simply conclude that PK future was in an ambiguous level but also predeterministic

[gentle aspen]

I’m fine with that

[obsidian quail]

okay but ur conflating ur personal automatic assumption that just saying foresight means perfect foresight when that isn’t an objective truth that u can take away from it

[obsidian quail]

that’s what i’ve been making the case for since we simply don’t know

all we know is he can see the future, to what level we are not sure, he is supposed to be an unfathomable being and regardless the arc still hits of foreseeing something and hoping u can defy it and still failing

no matter how u spin it

[sudden pivot]

I never claimed its an objective truth, you are misunderstanding me entirely, I said that if we were scientists, using the sceintfic method to explore this matter, my take would be the supported hypothesis because the assumption that it is full foresight natrually follows from the statement that PK has foresight, in the same way if I say I have control of water the assumption that I have control of all water natrually follows, where as the assumption that he only had very limited foresight does not in any way follow from the statement that "he had foresight"

it is the best-supported head canon

[obsidian quail]

yeah a scientist would not assume your foresight is perfect foresight without actual data to back that up

[gusty vapor]

Whats the debate

[zinc pivot]

Moving on, another point worth discussing is when each of the four old powers fall to GMS’ reign

[obsidian quail]

they would study it and then draw a conclusion

[sudden pivot]

is there any reason to belive PK's future vision wasn't perfect (Wrym's generally really)

[gusty vapor]

Oh, it came at the cost of the maggots no?

[gentle aspen]

what

[sudden pivot]

lacking any other data to any other point they would in fact actually

[gusty vapor]

The bug things that carrued stuff like slaves

[sudden pivot]

future vision as in his foresight not as in the ethics of his plans

[gusty vapor]

At that point its not science, just faith

[obsidian quail]

no they wouldn’t, that’s an unsubstantiated claim without evidence

they wouldn’t make any assumption about the level without first studying it

[gusty vapor]

For the multiple hollow knights?

[sudden pivot]

its using the least amount of faith possible which is what the entriety of the scientific method is based on, the scientific method doesn't just stop being applicable in the absence of data

[gusty vapor]

Yeah

At that point we start using what it isnt to substantiate what it is, reductively

[sudden pivot]

Wyrms could literally see the future, like an oracle, we're debating how much of the future they could see

[obsidian quail]

and i’m telling u they wouldn’t make an assumption without using the scientific method come on Koal

[sudden pivot]

I am literally using the scientific method, you come on lmao

[obsidian quail]

ur saying they would

[gusty vapor]

Thats not the scientific method

The scientific method is a framework

[obsidian quail]

no ur not ur saying they would make a specific assumption based off a blanket statement without any evidence or study

[sudden pivot]

you're right because it needs the ability to test one's hypothesis which we cant here, every other part of it remains true and applicable though

[sudden pivot]

IN THE ABSENCE OF ANYTHING ELSE, YES

[gusty vapor]

I mean, you're conflating this off a stated assumption, and the absence of contradictory info

[compact escarp]

Is the mist created by the steam mechanism by the phantom at exhaust organ?

[obsidian quail]

and that’s why i keep saying they wouldn’t draw a conclusion

[gusty vapor]

Thats a lore extrapolation, not a scientific conclusion

[narrow sky]

most likely

[obsidian quail]

in the first place

[sudden pivot]

yes, I am, because it requires less conflation than any other conclusion, oh my god I am so sick of repeating myself

[mint furnace]

I don’t know the context but this is also a video game and not the real world

[sudden pivot]

scientists have been drawing conclusions that exact way for literally the entriety of recorded history

[mint furnace]

Kinda missing an important part of the scientific method there

[obsidian quail]

in the absence of anything they’re not making a conclusion that is just what u think makes sense

[gusty vapor]

The science

[obsidian quail]

scientists do not draw conclusions without testing and data

[gusty vapor]

Or a framework lol

If scientists knew nothing on what shit was, they look at what it isnt or couldnt be

[sudden pivot]

data point: "PK has foresight" testing is not possible here, I already said that, I am talking about how a scientist approaches a hypothesis they can not test

[obsidian quail]

if someone told a scientist he had foresight and just that, he isn’t going to assume it’s perfect or imperfect, he’s going to study and test it to see what level it is

[ebon silo]

I guess it's this

Scenario A: pale king has true foresight he realized dooming his kingdom is the only way to save it?

Scenario B: pale king didn't have true foresight but an extent he tried his best to saved it but he thought he failed but in the end it was saved he just didn't know how he did it despite the failed results?

[sudden pivot]

I was wrong to call it the scientific method that is absolutely correct

[gusty vapor]

I mean, just say its a narrative assumption

[sudden pivot]

its a narrative assumption I make excplicitly because of what I've learned in stem lmao

[gusty vapor]

Theres nothing science abt it, but you are objectively substantiating a claim by the absence of evidence against it

[sudden pivot]

science is a philosophy of investigation

[obsidian quail]

and that’s fine for her to assume because it can’t be proven or disproven without actual evidence, i’m neutral in that all i can say is I don’t know to what extent PK’s foresight is because it wasn’t specified

[gusty vapor]

Its a framework too

[ebon silo]

What do you guys think?

[gusty vapor]

Bruh the cooldown deadass got longer cuz of this lmao, used to be 5 seconds now we're 15

[sudden pivot]

a philosophical framework, yeah?

[narrow sky]

seems correct

[obsidian quail]

perfect foresight or imperfect foresight could be true we just don’t know! ask TC in the next Q&A

[sudden pivot]

there is no such thing as "perfect foresight" only foresight and imperfect foresight, you are assuming the latter for no reason

foresight inherently is perfect

[obsidian quail]

foresight isn’t something that is inherently perfect

[quartz flicker]

The reason why Shakra thinks Hornet is a child when they first meet is because Hornet is super weak and slow at that point. Her time in the Rune Cage weakened her to a point where she's not herself.

[ebon silo]

I forgot to add more in scenario B I guess in his imperfect foresight he saw him making a vessel project so he did that basically he followed scenario A just blindfolded

[ebon silo]

Or she's just that short

[narrow sky]

maybe he just got random flashforwards(?) about what was going to happen

[obsidian quail]

how can foresight be inherently perfect if there’s imperfect foresight

[sudden pivot]

the first definition on Webster is "to see (something, such as a development) beforehand", if you are given no context as to what is being foresaw the natural assumption is that everything is being foresaw

[gusty vapor]

Also shes short

[obsidian quail]

there would be no such thing as imperfect foresight if foresight is inherently perfect

[rancid dagger]

if i take my glasses off im still seeing, but im not seeing perfectly let alone properly
apply the same logic to foresight

[quartz flicker]

Hornet is taller than most of the pilgrims that Shakra encountered.

[ebon silo]

Yeah basically he saw a flashforward of him making vessels so he did that and etc etc

[obsidian quail]

yes foresight is the ability to see the future, seeing the future imperfectly is still seeing the future

[sudden pivot]

but if you just say you're seeing with no further context there is 0 reason to assume you aren't seeing perfectly

[ebon silo]

Shakras pretty tall

[quartz flicker]

I doubt Shakra assumes all of the pilgrims are children too.

[rancid dagger]

there is 0 reason to assume it's perfect vision though

[gusty vapor]

I think hornet just looks youthful

[obsidian quail]

holy nuts that’s what i keep saying

she’s also imposing an assumption and acting as if it isn’t one

[ebon silo]

Yeah

[mint furnace]

It would be strange for shakra to consider anyone whose short young considering the 1 (2) people we see from her tribe are very old and both half her height

[sudden pivot]

but we have no context saying it was imperfect, so we cant make that assumption, given no context as to what is being seen the conclusion that requires the least assumptions to reach is that the foresight is complete, in the same way if I same I have pyrokenesis or something with no further context the conclusiont hat requires the least assumptions is that I have control over any flame not just some

[quartz flicker]

Shakra has no point of reference. Hornet doesn't look like other bugs in Pharloom or other places outside Hallownest.

[gusty vapor]

I think hornet just whimsical

A lil bug wearing a poofy dress

[ebon silo]

I'm guessing she just decided to airball and call her a child just because

[mint furnace]

They must have removed the ADINO and SHAW to attempt to reduce the whimsy

[quartz flicker]

It makes the most sense that Hornet being weakened is why Shakra calls her a child.

[gusty vapor]

I think its just looks tbh

[sudden pivot]

I heard someone say it's cause those were taunts in her language and they got removed because she's matured but I have no clue what source they pulled that from so im assuming they got it directly out of their ass

[obsidian quail]

and we have no context saying it’s perfect either those are both adjectives ur adding on

[mint furnace]

That’s no source

However, I do believe GARAMA is an insult because it instantly starts any boss fight that has a trigger

[sudden pivot]

I never added perfect or complete, you did, foresight inherently implies seeing the entire future, if I just say I have foresight with no other context that means I see the entire future

[spare pendant]

it does not

[mint furnace]

Foresight in any source of media has never been a perfect sight of the future (atleast that I know of)

[spare pendant]

all it means is you have some capacity to see the future, and typically not even magically (it can also just mean prediction)

[ebon silo]

Or it's just "HEY YOU"

[spare pendant]

i think garama is literally just a challenge, same with poshanka

[mint furnace]

Maybe, it would just be weird for widow to respond by saying “okay fuck you” and instantly fighting

I mean we know it’s a challenge, that’s what the prompt in game is

[sudden pivot]

the definition of foresee is "to see (something, such as a development) beforehand" if you are given no context as to what that something is assuming its simply the entire future requires less assumptions than anything else, of course it's still an assumption I never claimed it isn't, but it's the one we would go with if we needed to have an understanding of this to achieve some practical purpose because it would have the least chance of failing

[mint furnace]

Punctuation guys

But anyway, yes you’re technically correct, however again it’s almost never shown to be that way

[spare pendant]

No, that's actually a MAJOR set of assumptions and much more than anything else. I have no idea what your logic is here. You have to assume they have a magical ability, that their ability allows them to see into the entire future and thus that the entire future can be viably foreseen, etc

[sudden pivot]

rahhhh let language evolve like it's supposed to, and also what do you mean by "it" andalmost never shown to be "that way" ?

[mint furnace]

You know about Prometheus

[spare pendant]

The interpretation with the least amount of assumptions is simply that pale king has some awareness of certain future events.

[obsidian quail]

that’s what i’ve been saying

[mint furnace]

That’s what textbook foresight is, and basically exactly what pale king has

[obsidian quail]

oh lord thank u

[mint furnace]

…yes?

[ebon silo]

The guy that tried to fly a little higher? Yeah why

[mint furnace]

That’s how language works, lmao

[spare pendant]

that's icarus im gonna crash out

[sudden pivot]

oh my god, okay since apparently it needs to be stated, the practical interpetation that requires the least assumptions, fucking obviously the one that requires the least assumptions is just "idk"

[obsidian quail]

we have no idea how good PK’s foresight is, we just know he has it, saying that it’s at any specific level is an assumption that could be true but it’s still an assumption

[gentle aspen]

That’s icarus

[mint furnace]

No, titan of foresight, gave fire to mortals, then Zeus chained him to a rock and had his liver eaten by an eagle for all eternity

[gentle aspen]

prometheus was the guy who got his liver eaten every day by an eagle

[spare pendant]

How is that practical?

[ebon silo]

Prometheus... Ohhh fuck im stupid sorry you meant the guy who hurls lighting in mount Olympus

[mint furnace]

THATS ZEUS

[sudden pivot]

for the purposes of lore-examination, it would help a lot to understand PK's perspective

[obsidian quail]

I killed that guy as Kratos

[ebon silo]

Sad tragedy for him though

[ebon silo]

Ohhh but fr I did genuinely thought Prometheus was the guy who flew higher but I then remember the 67 and Icarus video

[spare pendant]

It doesn't really help if it's making big assumptions that were never stated/implied in the narrative.

[ebon silo]

It's kinda crazy that there's a video about the 67 kid portrayed as Icarus and lining up so well times are changing man times are hella changing

Wait wait why did Prometheus got his liver eaten again

[obsidian quail]

it doesn’t really change the narrative because either way he saw the future and still tried and still failed

[gentle aspen]

punishment for giving folks fire

[sudden pivot]

I have been arguing this entire time that it is in fact implied in the narrative by virtue of it being the understanding of his foresight that requires the least assumptions, because "idk" is not an understanding

[ebon silo]

Fair enough those folks ended up making the atomic bomb so yeah

[sudden pivot]

PK's personality absolutely affects the narrative most especially thematically, not having this conversation

[obsidian quail]

but it’s not implied, ur just assuming foresight means perfect

[sudden pivot]

I literally said that yes

[rancid dagger]

the least assumptions is that he has some foresight but not perfect foresight, assuming he could see the future perfectly is a bigger assumption than just a certain degree of it

[sudden pivot]

I mean I think it is implied but the second half

[earnest sparrow]

i find it interesting that the void manifesting as saw blades hints to the fact that it isn't mindless

[sudden pivot]

thats not the least assumption, where are you getting that he only has some foresight

[spare pendant]

You have indeed said that, and it's not true. All that matters for the narrative is that he was aware of his kingdom's downfall by infection and did everything he could to stop it, failing to divert an inevitability.

[obsidian quail]

his personality is what made him try to defy his future so how does it change depending on what level his foresight is, either way his personality made it so he would irrationally try to defy it

like it works either way

[sudden pivot]

I guess none of the characters personalities in stories matter to the narrative only what they do, it's all about the desitnation not the jounrey after all! :)

[spare pendant]

That's not a personality trait??

[sudden pivot]

having foresight would dramatically alter one's personality

[obsidian quail]

we lost the plot

[sudden pivot]

yall lost the plot trying to strawman me lmao

[spare pendant]

You're making it into an even bigger reach than it already was

[obsidian quail]

how did we get here

how did anybody strawman by saying ur assumption is equal to any other assumption due to lack of specifics

[ebon silo]

I got a theory.

[gentle aspen]

literally no one is arguing he doesn’t have foresight what even is your point anymore

atp just drop the argument entirely

[pliant meadow]

This does not sound like silksong lore gng

[obsidian quail]

hopefully we get a nice big ol Wyrm in SS dlc who can lay out the facts

[midnight zinc]

PK foresight discussion rarely goes anywhere

[obsidian quail]

pre body nerf too i wanna see Shai-Halud

[spare pendant]

bardoon grows up into a wyrm actually

[obsidian quail]

one of these babies

[spare pendant]

wyrms start as caterpillars now because why not

[pliant meadow]

I've got a theory:
Void is the only thing that can kill pale beings, as evidenced by the only ending where GMS actually dies being that of SOTV, and the presence of void in the Pale King's throne room where his body is found. This theory really stems from the fact that void is the only thing that we see actually 'kill' pale beings.

[sudden pivot]

that isnt what we were talking about just down, trying to get at the idea that PK's personality doesn't matter to lore examination, though granted I probably should have said story or narrative rather than lore, is absolutely a strawman because its not arguing against my point that PK having complete foresight is the easiest assumption to make that actually can be taken to have any lore impact whatsoever, since obviously "idk" doesnt

[obsidian quail]

i’ve just been saying the whole time we can’t even argue about it because we don’t have enough information 🫩

[sudden pivot]

hmmmm maybe, I think it's one of the Fire Bugs from Whip Thicket tho

[spare pendant]

GMS actually dies in every ending, what?

[edgy barn]

Pretty suee that's a burning bug

[sudden pivot]

actually no strawman is wrong term though here, I think moving the goal posts would be what I was thinking of

[obsidian quail]

but i’m saying regardless of whether PK’s foresight is perfect or imperfect, it doesn’t change that he still tried to deny the future so any level of foresight can still work in context of story

[spare pendant]

burning bugs do look oddly similar to the pinstress order

[pliant meadow]

Well it's debatable, in weaver queen Hornet absorbs here power (likely similar to how she would bind Eva, and that's stated to not be killing Eva), & in cursed child, she's frozen in the grey root, so possibly not dead.

[sudden pivot]

sure the larger narrative remains cohesive regardless but the specifics would tell us so much more about PK's mindset and why he took the exact steps he did in the exact order he did

[spare pendant]

Eva is a silkborn, she IS the silk that hornet binds into her. GMS' body isn't made of silk, we see her shell.

[compact zealot]

She’s definitely dead in the greyroot ending

[pliant meadow]

But she's also the primal source of silk, so probably something like a silkborn

[spare pendant]

But we see her shell

[compact zealot]

She was used as a vessel to birth a parasite

[pliant meadow]

But she gives Hornet all of her power to do that last super jump, and she disintegrates into silk

[edgy barn]

wouldn't a perfect foresight PK have been able to foresee that accepting the moths into his kingdoms would eventually lead to Radiance starting the infection, and that the plan he would come up with to seal her in a vessel would fail?

[rapid fractal]

do you think we will see what was birthed in dlc?

[pliant meadow]

no

[spare pendant]

Not in weaver queen ending

[sudden pivot]

Eva seems to phrase it as if what she's contained in is part of her being not seperate from her keeping her caged, im not sure she's Silkborn

[rapid fractal]

he can see the future probably not change it

[spare pendant]

?

[pliant meadow]

What are you trying to say here? She's absorbed by hornet in that ending, and her shell isn't viable

[rapid fractal]

"what good to foresee a demise unavoidable"

[inner torrent]

Okay so, I love how silksong depicts the ||Lifeblood Infection|| I think it makes a perfect parallelism with light infection, this one being a mind infection, while the other a "Body infection", this is probably triggered because ||Lifeblood|| doesn't have it's origin in a pale being that needs veneration, as the ||Abyss Beast|| could imply, though we don't know if it's the origin of lifeblood, the fact that the only lifeblood god we know is a abyss black beast, could mean the nature of lifeblood is more, beastly, from a being like Unn|| While light infection seems to focus in infecting the mind and then disperse THROUGH the body, the main focus of the other one seems to be to infect the body, Lifeblood Beast's|| seem to don't "Die" by the infection, like light infection beasts do, as the infection rips them apart, but the other infection if something keeps them alive longer, because the life of the big is the important, not it's veneration.

[ebon silo]

the grandmother silk: the modern retelling of the morais(fate from Greece)

A pale being mother who desperate of becoming a mother decided to weave and thread silk and life (like how the morai weave and thread life deciding how you live and how you die) weaved the weavers into a high being to be called her divine daughters but one day they left realizing the mother could not escape fate no matter how much she weave and thread silk and life she will be forever infertile and cannot have a child

For even mortals like loam too cannot escape the same fate of the mother for as no matter how hard they work no matter how they pray no matter what they can never received enlightenment

Shitpost 101

[sudden pivot]

whats confusing?

[spare pendant]

We know for a fact based on her sprite that she has a shell. If she has a shell, she can't be made of silk like Eva or Lace.

[spare pendant]

Where is that implied?

[pliant meadow]

Then what is happening with that final super jump at the end of the lost lace fight? She turns completely white

[sudden pivot]

"Lady, you mistake. What seems a cage is as much my shell as the form inside." -Eva

[rapid fractal]

she gives up her remaining silk

[sudden pivot]

also wouldn't she have starved of silk if Eva were a Silkborn?

[obsidian quail]

yeah it’s way easier to say it was imperfect but both could work with explanation

[spare pendant]

Her shell is probably being consumed by the void I'd guess? It's a weird animation

[flint relic]

Hello silksong lore channel. I have beaten the true ending, and thus I can now view this channel. May I get a short lore overview?

[inner torrent]

I mean, she is in a Weaver nest, it would make sense she have a lot of silk to feed from

[sudden pivot]

but we see absolutely no mechanism by which she could

[spare pendant]

Oh, interesting. But she probably says that because that tank is her life support and she can't live without it. Therefore, when you bind her, you replace her tank and she lives in your shell.

[obsidian quail]

well there isn’t a consensus on the specific timeline because it’s ambiguous

[flint relic]

this sucks

[inner torrent]

That's cute, In a way?

[spare pendant]

What parts do you want?

[sudden pivot]

GMS evolves the Pharlid's into Weavers, Weaver's create the Citadel the music of which keeps GMS asleep, the Whiteward doctors put Silk into themselves which spreads to all the people of the kingdom allowing GMS to take control of them in her sleep, as she does the music starts to fail and she begins to wake up, the remaining Weavers flee or are killed, GMS creates Lace as a daughter and send for Hornet to be returned to Pharloom so GMS can absorb her power, Lace is jealous of GMS's obsession with Hornet and spiteful towards GMS for the nature of her creation so she sends the silk butterfly to free Horent so she can try and kill her instead of letting her reach GMS

[edgy barn]

That esentially removes all of PK's agency from any of his actions, as no matter his knowledge or intentions, he would be forced to make the same decisions because ???

There's a big difference between PK seeing a vague or unclear vision of his kingdom being destroyed, and him seeing an step by step presentation in his head of how exactly that's going to happen, and how the solutions he would come up with fail and eventually he ends up death, and still taking the course of actions that end up with him dead on his throne.

[molten parcel]

Guys i realized something

[ebon silo]

Garmond and Hornet: the modern retelling of Icarus and Daedalus

Daedalus, a master inventor, was trapped on Crete with his son Icarus. To escape, he built wings of feathers and wax. Before flying, he warned Icarus not to fly too low (the sea would dampen the wings) or too high (the sun would melt them). At first they flew safely, but Icarus grew overconfident, soared too close to the sun, the wax melted, and he fell into the sea and drowned. Daedalus escaped, grieving his son.

This is where garmond and Hornet comes in

Garmond who was a defender of pharloom tried to defend his land since act 1 but one day the world was plunged into void and darkness without hesitation garmond defended but hornet warned he must not fight too weak or he will die to the void or be too overconfident and die to the void but garmond his warrior spirit could not be gated and he fell in blasted steps he fell to the ground hornet bested him and she proceeded to grieve

[sudden pivot]

the way I read it is he knew Radiance would destory his kingdom no matter what he did and so he took every step he could conceive of to stop that from happening but it did anyways

[molten parcel]

Sherma is the new caretaker in act 3 since he's wearing same clothes from caretaker

[flint relic]

Thanks a lot!

[ebon silo]

Yes

[obsidian quail]

the Weavers were gone or dead before GMS started waking up i think

right

[obsidian quail]

all hail King Sherma

[spare pendant]

Icarus' story has a pretty basic message of hubris or overconfidence. Any character who gets too big for their britches can be likened to Icarus. Hornet doesn't have anything in common with Daedalus, though

[sudden pivot]

I think the message in Atla kinda implies they were around for at least a little bit after she started to turn in her sleep

[ebon silo]

Hornet is hornet

[molten parcel]

What tells us GMS is the original source of silk if hornet could take her power, wouldnt that Open a possibility to GMS Being someone who overtook silk control

[narrow sky]

facts

[edgy barn]

journal entry

[sudden pivot]

if anything Hornet would be that one girl with the thread who keeps Theseus from getting lost in the Labyrinth of Minos

[flint relic]

Isn't it said that the weavers went to hallownest and then continued somewhere else as hallownest fell? Where did they go, back to pharloom?

[spare pendant]

The myths that survived to modern day do not have very interesting messages on their own, because our culture already benefits from the messages they carried.

[spare pendant]

why Ariadne?

[inner torrent]

Beasts produce soulless silk?

[molten parcel]

Scratch that then

[sudden pivot]

they are stated to have returned to their homeland, I assume they were killed by Lace on arrival

[edgy barn]

yeah, just plain ol cobwed

[flint relic]

that sucks :(

[molten parcel]

I noticed that every higher being we met has a fixation to rule over something

Radiance wanted rule hallownest
Pk wanted rule hallownest
GMS wanted rule Pharloom

[edgy barn]

And then there is white lady who just wanted to breed

[sudden pivot]

Radiance would be the Minotaur and Theseus would be the Knight, I guess THK would be vaguely represented by the previous generations of Minotaur fodder, I dunno I kinda just jumped to her cause of the thread and her aiding the protag X3

[inner torrent]

Maybe that's how gms born.

old cobweb + soul gathered from thousands of hunted bugs, merged into a pale being

[flint relic]

which hk ending is canon??

[molten parcel]

Sometimes i forget a simple human > Hk-SS universe

[sudden pivot]

EXTREMELY debateable

[narrow sky]

is that just a thing all tree/plant creature want?

[molten parcel]

EtV or DnM

[spare pendant]

They're all canon according to team cherry.

[inner torrent]

Supposedly all of them?

[sudden pivot]

though if anything Omelas would be the actual literary inspiration of Hollow Knight

[molten parcel]

That comment was 8 years ago, maybe they changed their minds? Idk

[narrow sky]

the mr. mushroom one

[edgy barn]

please don't start an ending canonicity discussion

[spare pendant]

Mr Mushroom isn't an ending, it's an extra scene after any ending

[molten parcel]

Notice how Mr mushroom appears no matter what?

[inner torrent]

I think sealed siblings can be as canon to silksong as any other ending

[narrow sky]

yuh uh

[hushed viper]

aren't hornet and lace siblings?? like in a distant way

[narrow sky]

it's the ending after the ending

[inner torrent]

In a very distant way

[edgy barn]

Technically Lace is Hornet's aunt

[spare pendant]

No, lace is more like her aunt than anything

[hushed viper]

oh right

why are people shipping hornet with her aunt 🥀

[spare pendant]

Although weavers do not consider themselves daughters of GMS

[molten parcel]

Weavers arent GMS relatives
They are pharlids

[narrow sky]

i've never thought about it that way but that's true

[sudden pivot]

eh like people care, technically Ghost and THK are the same age but people still have Ghost as Hornet's little sibling and THK as her older sibling X3

[molten parcel]

GMS just turned them into THAT
They are not direct daughters

[spare pendant]

Well, vessel didn't age

[ebon silo]

2nd sentinel & Hornet: The modern retelling of Argus Panoptes

Argus Panoptes was a giant with a hundred eyes, the perfect watchman who never truly slept. Hera set him to guard Io, a maiden transformed into a cow, and he kept his watch faithfully. But Zeus sent Hermes, who lulled Argus’s eyes shut with music and killed him. To honor her servant, Hera placed Argus’s eyes on the feathers of her sacred peacock.

This is where sentinel and hornet comes in

The Sentinel was built to watch over the Citadel, tireless and unyielding, like Argus with his hundred eyes. It never slept, even as the kingdom crumbled, even when its siblings were gone. Its words echoed of duty — “Protect the pure, cut down the cursed” — though it knew it was alone forever.

When Hornet came, climbing toward the heights, the Sentinel stood against her. Not out of hatred, but because it was bound to guard. Like Hermes felling Argus with music, Hornet broke through not by malice but by destiny’s hand.

Defeated, the Sentinel did not curse her — it honored her, as Hera once honored Argus by placing his eyes on the peacock’s tail. Its watch ended, but its duty was remembered.

[inner torrent]

Isn't the ghost the older sibling?

[edgy barn]

1-Arguing they are related in any meaningful capacity is a stretch.
2-People didn't know that before Silksong released

[spare pendant]

tk and thk are the same chronological age but tk is biologically younger

[hushed viper]

people still do after silksong released

[sudden pivot]

THK grew with age, it's very very possible Zote and Elderbug are Vessels too but im not interesting in getting into that right now because thats a WHOLE discussion

[spare pendant]

...... there's nothing to discuss there

[edgy barn]

We don't know because we don't know the exact timeline

[inner torrent]

The lore is not exactly easy to read

[narrow sky]

huh

[inner torrent]

• they aren't even blood related nor bond related

[gentle aspen]

They’re literally not vessels

and thk didn’t grow with age wither

[hushed viper]

i think it's more than just age, cuz all around hallownest you see remains of tk's siblings and they're all roughly the same as them, the only one different is thk

ofc this could be contributed to them dying earlier hence they stop aging but it's def still more than JUST age

[sudden pivot]

care to elaborate?

[spare pendant]

Lace and Hornet definitely do have a sisterly bond in sotv, they're the sisters of void

[gentle aspen]

all of the vessels are around the same age, time wouldn’t cause them to grow as they were killed and reanimated using void

[edgy barn]

The Pure Vessel's journal entry states that it was trained to prime form, which could be interpreted to mean that it grew because of its training.

[gentle aspen]

zote literally comes from a different kingdom and elderbug is too young to be a vessel

[spare pendant]

Broken vessel is a bit older, I think it has to do with environment maybe

[narrow sky]

you can see tk and thk at the same time in the birthplace cutscene and they look the same size

[spare pendant]

Yeah elderbug isn't even old enough to have been around when the pale king was alive

[sudden pivot]

and??? just because Ghost didnt grow with age doesn't mean THK didn't they obviously did, why idk ask TC

[narrow sky]

it's funny to think how young elderbug is

[ebon silo]

@gentle aspen what do you think of the modern retelling of the 2nd sentinel to that of argus

[spare pendant]

or they grew for some other reason

[sudden pivot]

Ghost also comes from outside the kingdom, and Elderbug could have has his memories erased again same as Ghost

[edgy barn]

Wait you are actually serious?

[narrow sky]

they have mouths?

[spare pendant]

Ghost forgot its roots due to being outside the kingdom for so long, no memory erasure whatsoever

[ebon silo]

wait where do I send this typa texts in lore or in discussion??? 💀

[gentle aspen]

We see the knight’s birth, elderbug having their memories wiped wouldn’t happened and that’s entirely unsupported, and the knight leaving the kingdom isn’t the cause of their memory loss

[inner torrent]

There is also the broken vessel, which is bigger than most vessels.

[sudden pivot]

regardless that other reason would also come with time so it's ultimately not relevant to my point

[gentle aspen]

suppressing memory trauma

[gentle aspen]

‘S normal size variation, we see heads around the same size in the abyss

also the cloak they wear gives the illusion they’re a lot bigger

[sudden pivot]

I never said it was supported I didn't realize you all hate theory crafting so much, im simply stating its possible, and leaving the Kingdom is stated to cause memory loss and stated by Hornet to be the cause of Ghost specfically's memory loss

[gentle aspen]

she didn’t say that

[flint relic]

but is she really? GMS MADE lace, but she only transformed the pharlids into weavers.

[gentle aspen]

and you’re not theorycrafting either

[inner torrent]

Never thought of that.

[sudden pivot]

riveting argument.

[gentle aspen]

It literally isn’t possible for either zote or elderbug to be vessels

[spare pendant]

It wasn't leaving the kingdom, it was spending a long stretch of time away from its birthplace (i e its source of trauma)

[gentle aspen]

Well she literally didn’t say that what else do you want me to say

[sudden pivot]

its literally stated that leaving the kingdom causes memory loss, its what happened to Hornet

[spare pendant]

Hornet was drained by the seals in her cage

[sudden pivot]

not Hornet sorry got mixxed up in my head, Quirrel

[spare pendant]

Quirrel also had dreamer magic involved

[gentle aspen]

Quirrel has a magical mask that protecting him from losing his sapience granted by the kingdom

[edgy barn]

I said technically for a reason. You have to consider both Lace and the Weaver's to be GMS' actual daughters, making Lace and Herrah sisters and thus, making Hornet Lace's niece

[sudden pivot]

and yet he still lost his memories, just as the Knight did

[spare pendant]

The weavers don't consider themselves daughters though, since they're pharlids who were born of pharlids eggs

[inner torrent]

Is there a mention of why pharloom seems to lack the intelligence issues hallownest had?

Pharloom and hallownest seem to have just a similar amount of intelligent bugs.
But hallownest needed a pale beacon, could it be that the silk or the gms/weavers influence had something to do with this?

[gentle aspen]

if you’re gonna argue that two entirely different scenarios are the same there’s no point to this discussion

I already noted why quirrel’s case is different and the knight lacks those characteristics

[spare pendant]

Hallownest also has a lot of intelligent bugs, it's just that Pale King needed subjects and enlightened a ton of primitive bugs as well

[edgy barn]

I agree with you, I was not seriously arguing that Lace and Hornet are related

[gentle aspen]

Their memory loss isn’t a result of leaving the kingdom

[inner torrent]

I guess that makes sense, and considering that most civilized bugs in pharloom are "Pilgrim's" ergo they come from other lands... I think? Would mean they had to be intelligence in first place to want to come to pharloom

[sudden pivot]

if you're just gonna ignore the statement that directly says something which they both did causes memory loss, then yeah there is no point in discussing with someone like you, blocked

[spare pendant]

The pilgrims do live in Pharloom, their pilgrimage is to the Citadel

[gentle aspen]

There is no statement

You are making this up

[inner torrent]

Oh, IG that explains the silk.

[gentle aspen]

Jesus fucking christ you are one of the most obnoxious people I have ever talked lore with

[spare pendant]

Why are you so firm on this idea 😭

[spare pendant]

Reasonable crashout

[sudden pivot]

why is no one able to present any evidence to the contrary, and so desperate to attack me despite that?

[spare pendant]

You keep citing a statement that nobody thinks exists. Maybe show the quote you think supports your claim?

[gentle aspen]

It is literally your theory and you have given zero evidence to prove it

[sudden pivot]

its literally just the Howling Cliffs tablet, someone referenced it earlier

[spare pendant]

That only applies to primitive bugs granted sapience by the kingdom...

[sudden pivot]

according to who??? it clearly affected Quirrel

[gentle aspen]

it literally says relinquishing mind not memories

[spare pendant]

Quirrel is one of those bugs, yes

[random harbor]

Lore Tablet: Howling Cliffs - "No world beyond"

Higher beings, these words are for you alone.
These blasted plains stretch never-ending. There is no world beyond.
Those foolish enough to traverse this void must pay the toll and relinquish the precious mind this kingdom grants.

@kingoclowns used /lore-tablets area: Howling Cliffs name: "No world beyond"

[spare pendant]

That's why he had the mask on to protect his mind while he was out exploring

[gentle aspen]

it says mind
not memories

[ebon silo]

Green prince: the modern retelling of Orpheus

The Green Prince was heir to a fallen kingdom, bound by love that outlived its body. His partner gave themselves to the Cogwork Dancers, eternal yet hollow, and he was left in chains, mourning. Like Orpheus who lost Eurydice, he clung to memory, haunted by what once was. Freed, he wandered Pharloom, yet his sorrow kept him from rising. In the end, he sought reunion, but his doubt and grief brought only defeat. Love endured, but only as a shadow.

(The story about Orpheus if you didn't know)
Orpheus, greatest of musicians, descended to the Underworld to reclaim his beloved Eurydice. Hades allowed her return on one condition: he must not look back until both had left. But doubt overcame him. He turned too soon, and Eurydice vanished forever.

Y'know I genuinely feel sad for bro

[flint relic]

its not that deep

[ebon silo]

No no it's that deep

[spare pendant]

it's pretty deep

[flint relic]

I believe garmond and zaza could be inspired by don quijote tho

[fair void]

how would the bugs of pharloom have sentience then, it isn’t from silk since they built the citadel before experimenting

[ebon silo]

Because some bugs already do

[flint relic]

where did gms come from

[grand bison]

did any pilgrims ever make it to the citadel or did they all end up in underworks

[obsidian quail]

so once Quirrel leave Hallownest now he’s cooked sapience wise? also do all Wyrms raise the consciousness of bugs?

[fair void]

look around, all the cloaked bugs, for example sherman getting a new cloak. they are all pilgrims who reached the citadel

[spare pendant]

The choir bugs yeah

[flint relic]

the choir exists, and pilgrims are told to work hard to eventually join their ranks when entering the citadel.

[spare pendant]

All higher beings seem to be capable of enlightening other bugs, but we don't know anything beyond that.

[sudden pivot]

you're just making an assumption that it only erased the minds of bugs granted apience by the kingdom, every time we see any bug out in the wastes they loose their memory, we know there are paths through the wastes where one memories are preserved because the Weavers charted a bunch of them out in the Far Fields Deepnest which explains how bugs like Tiso could get to Hallownest, the Whispering Root in Howling Cliffs also says "wasteland, bugs reduced" which implies all bugs not just ones raised by PK specifically

[obsidian quail]

do u guys think there’s any difference between Pale Wyrm and non-Pale Wyrm?

[sudden pivot]

for sure, Pale Beings seem to be like shiny pokemon, based off the Palestag

[obsidian quail]

also i will say if u lose ur higher mind u probably would also lose the memories that came with them cuz u wouldn’t really be able to think that way again right? like recall those memories and properly be aware

[spare pendant]

Hornet explicitly didn't lose her memory. Hornet lost her strength and technique because of the seals. We also know of the wanderer's journal author who didn't lose her memory of hallownest. There is also a weaver in the wastes.

[inner torrent]

Can't we just suppose the ghost forgot that because that's how he born? I don't think much people remember their birth

[sudden pivot]

mmmm, perhaps, could explain why no other vessel was eligable for Void Heart seemingly, or maybe they just needed to have whatever the white charm is called I forget

[spare pendant]

It's like an ant walking on a motherboard and suddenly gaining the ability to understand every component of it, then losing it right after. You have the memory of those memories, but lack the ability to understand them like you once did. That is literal eldritch madness.

[inner torrent]

King soul or monarch soul, not sure which

[spare pendant]

Void heart was created from the kingsoul, it definitely wasn't a Ghost specific thing

[obsidian quail]

but then don’t u also lose the ability to “know” the motherboard so it’s all gone until u get it back?

[spare pendant]

Pretty much, in theory all you'd have is the memory of a memory

[inner torrent]

Is the white lady a pale being? She is really different to others

[spare pendant]

Yes

She is one of 4 confirmed pale beings, besides 2 who may or may not be pale

[inner torrent]

You mean higher pale beings or just pale beings, because aren't all vessels technically pale?

[sudden pivot]

my understanding was that the runes has protected her from loosing her memory, I am not aware of any Weavers in the wastes? news to me, as for the Wanderer's Journal author her perspective cuts off just as she's about to leave so we dont know, and since she's a seemingly professional explorer who said she came to Hallownest out of curiosity, it's easy to assume she would be aware of any safe passages there may be

[spare pendant]

vessels are not described as pale

[ancient dock]

Vessels are a mix

[ebon silo]

Lace: the modern retelling of Eris the goddess of discord,chaos,etc

Lace was not born but woven, a child of silk given form by Grand Mother Silk. She envied the living, calling herself discarded, stretched thin, unworthy. Through the Needolin, her echoes reveal her bitterness: a daughter resenting the mother who favored another, a rival forever measured against Hornet. She mocked, she taunted, stirring strife wherever she walked — not out of strength, but from the wound of envy. Like Eris casting her golden apple, Lace provoked discord, seeking to be seen, to break the peace of others so her own unrest would not stand alone. Her laughter hid sorrow, her challenge hid longing, and in Hornet she saw not only an enemy but the shadow of what she could never become.

(The story of Eris)
Eris, goddess of strife, thrived in envy and discord. Denied a place at a wedding feast, she cast a golden apple marked “for the fairest.” The goddesses quarreled over it, and from that seed of jealousy came the Trojan War.

Ngl I think laces attitude is pretty justified or something considering her story is tragic as hell

[edgy barn]

Is it ever implied that the other vessels were inherintly incapable of forming voidheart? In order to even try they would have needed 1-To be strong enough to beat Hornet and take Kingd's Brand. And 2-Find a method of accessing the dream realm powerful enough to enter the white palace

[spare pendant]

You're essentially building a complex array of assumptions to justify each other to justify the core thesis. Sure, maybe all of this is simultaneously true and could maybe mean elderbug might have had his memories erased. None of it has any basis in the evidence shown in or out of game, though.

[ancient dock]

There are only three confirmed pale beings GMS, PK and WL with Hornet only being half although she is grouped in sometimes

[azure wave]

Wait why was hornet captured and who captured her specifically?

[spare pendant]

Hornet is definitely a pale being, just not a higher being. Same way as she's definitely a weaver despite only being half weaver.

[edgy barn]

Lol I forgot this started because of the idea of Elderbug being a vessel

[spare pendant]

The citadel captured her and other weavers under GMS' control so that GMS could get new silk sources for Lace.

[sudden pivot]

huh? ive moved well past the Elderbug thing, what im arguing is that the wastes beyond erase the memories of any mortal bug who wanders it, which is corroborated by Boon and Tuk (forget which is which) and the Howling Cliffs dreamroot, which is never contradicted by anything other than Tiso, Wanderer's Journal lady, and probably 1 or 2 other npcs im forgetting who show up to Hallownest from beyond the kingdom, but again the Weavers having to chart paths through the wastes beyond implies there are sections of it which are safe to the memory to travel and sections of it which are not

[azure wave]

but then why are there choral commandments asking for her capture if the bugs who captured her and the ones passing the choral commandment are under the control of GMS already? kinda feels like messaging yourself to get milk?

[gentle aspen]

Also probably to try a third time with kids because she’s a shit mom

[spare pendant]

When does boon and tuk corroborate this? Also, no, all it implies is that some parts of the wastes are dangerous.

[inner torrent]

Wouldn't it be because the weavers have great minds that don't decrease in lack of a beacon?

[gentle aspen]

it’s not in any way corroborated by boon or tuk nor the howling cliffs root the latter is proof of it erasing minds not memories

And wastes only affect bugs not naturally sapient regardless

[sudden pivot]

how do they not??? if thats not immediately obvious to you I feel like our understandings of these things are so far apart we will never be able to find any common ground

[gentle aspen]

And once again koal just goes to “there’s no point if not obvious” instead of explaining anything because they can’t actually give their points any proper evidence

[spare pendant]

You have to actually provide evidence for your theory. This behavior is not productive. If you're going to continue making claims only to back them up with them being apparently obvious, then you shouldn't be contributing to a lore channel.

[inner torrent]

Did the ghost even forgot something to begin with?

[gentle aspen]

They forgot their past in the abyss

That’s about it

[fresh badger]

Wdym the wastes erase memories literally every npc in ss and hk that travelled the wastes to reach those kingdoms would be a damn amnesia riddled fool in that case

The howling cliffs stuff is telling Hallownest's bugs "hey bozos this is the max range of the beacon, if you leave the beacon you lose the expansion on your mind the beacon provides"

[spare pendant]

Guys, I forgot some of my childhood trauma, clearly the wastes of Texas cause a person to lose their memories

[cobalt coyote]

Did everyone start calling the knight "ghost" after silksong? I swear i rarely saw people call him that before it

[sudden pivot]

one lives inside Hallownest and has a full mind, one does not and does not, neither were born inside of Hallownest, I have been having to explain myself for the last six hours god forbid I want to take a break for one second, since all of you hate every idea I have with a passion and are incapable of disagreeing with anyone else or giving me a single moment to breathe

[blissful harbor]

the ghost of hornet possessed everyone

[fresh badger]

Thats crazy

[inner torrent]

I don't remember very well but, was it mentioned that the ghost "Remembered" something? I feel like hornet could have, or the voidheart description mentions that, but I font really temember

[spare pendant]

Ghost is what hornet calls the knight, so it's always been a somewhat niche term for it

[gentle aspen]

“Remember the past and unite the abyss”

[cobalt coyote]

Yeah but now i only see people call him ghost

[fresh badger]

People always called it ghost

[inner torrent]

I used to call him the hollow knight and then the ghost once I met the real hollow knight

[gentle aspen]

“Neither were born inside of hallownest”
Assumption

[spare pendant]

Nobody is denying enlightened bugs lose their mind when they enter the wastes. The issue is that we know this explicitly to be the case for enlightened bugs of the pale king, and that it has nothing to do with memories.

Also, what jojoker said

[fresh badger]

Little Shadow is used by more characters than Ghost is

[cobalt coyote]

Ah idk i always saw people call him the knight and a small few call him ghost now its the other way around

[gentle aspen]

ghost is a bit shorter than the knight

So

[cobalt coyote]

One letter

[spare pendant]

...what

[ebon silo]

I wonder what kind of greek god I can compare the knight to

[inner torrent]

That's too long just call it shade atp

[graceful flicker]

Atlas (idk)

[inner torrent]

Zagreus

Jk, but maybe the unborn son of Zeus of the prophecy

[spare pendant]

No Zagreus actually fits

[ebon silo]

Kratos??

[gentle aspen]

5 is one letter shorter than 9?

[edgy barn]

Ghost sounds like a cute nickname until you realize Hornet calls them that because they are a corpse animated by Void.

[cobalt coyote]

Oh you mean the knight, i meant only knight

[sudden pivot]

also cause they're the "Ghost of Hallownest"

[ebon silo]

Hmmm

[gentle aspen]

Probably heracles

powerful, shitty life due to parental/deity influence, later ascends to godhood

mate even has the super strength

[obsidian quail]

whichever god is the most stoic

[spare pendant]

Zagreus was Zeus' (Pale King) and Persephone's (White Lady) son who was raised by Hades (the Void). He was killed, and his heart was preserved and reborn into the second Dionysos (a void creature), the future king of Olympus (Hallownest).

Besides Zeus seducing Persephone as a serpent, though, that's where the similarities end. It's a stretch but fits way better than other gods or heroes

[ebon silo]

Sherma: The modern retelling of Apollo

Sherma, a pilgrim of Pharloom, carried no blade but a song. He wandered the roads with his Instrumen, playing before locked doors and in quiet springs, his melodies lifting spirits and guiding the lost. Shadows struck at him, yet his voice endured, shielded by those who believed in his hope. Like Apollo, who brought healing and light through music, Sherma’s song was both prayer and prophecy — a soft harmony against Pharloom’s cruelty, a reminder that even in chains of silk, melody could still open the way forward.

(The story of Apollo)
Apollo, god of light, music, and prophecy, carried harmony into the world. With his lyre he brought healing and order, with his bow he struck down those who defied balance. Both radiant and severe, he guided mortals with song and truth, yet punished arrogance with swift arrows.

[spare pendant]

Pale King, on the other hand, fits Odin to a T

[ebon silo]

Oh yes Odin for sure

A person who wanted to avoid fate but fate itsslf often leads to it

[spare pendant]

Probably even the inspiration for his story

[sudden pivot]

feel like Those Who Walked Away From Omelas is probably one of the biggest literary inspirations of the first game

[ebon silo]

Those who walked away from omelettes?

who the fuck walks away from omelettes

[quartz flicker]

I've always preferred the titles "Ghost", "Little Ghost", and "Ghost of Hallownest", as Hornet calls them. No one actually calls them "The Knight" in game.

[inner torrent]

Too eggy

[hallow marten]

Guys, is there somewhere with what we know for now written down?
I'm doing the true end now and want to start discussing the lore too, so it will be good to read it, if it exists

[hazy carbon]

so i tried making a family tree of sorts idk man am i correct or nah?

the thing right below the weavers is eva

[rain gate]

seems right to me

[manic pewter]

I like how you've put the question mark for all hornets dead exes

[hallow marten]

Well, I agree too, but I would like to be more up to date with Phantom's and Eva's lore

[scenic stirrup]

That kinda explains how the some of the vessels horns kinda look branch like

[lean fog]

dang she is literally hornets grand mother

[scenic stirrup]

Whos the weaver king 💀 when all the weavers so far we've seen are women

[polar moon]

guys I have a theory, what if crust king Khans... ass crusts?

[manic pewter]

Also do we think phantom trained lace or do silk created beings just have similar combat styles?

[scenic stirrup]

🤨

Prolly same teacher

[polar moon]

Like hear me out, he is the king of crust tower right? What does the crust exactly mean? It can't mean the coral, so the only logical thing is that it means ass crust!..

[scenic stirrup]

Btw second sentinenl has the cross slash move the pinstress uses

[edgy nebula]

https://tenor.com/view/tiktok-dog-awkward-dog-confused-awkward-confused-dog-gif-2881577801438605193

[lean fog]

Why do pinstress and second sentinel do the same X attack

[scenic stirrup]

Maybe shes the third pinstress sister ?

[lean fog]

bro there’s no way lmao

[scenic stirrup]

That died and got made into a robot

[edgy nebula]

Second sentinel is seemingly trained off of pinstresses

[polar moon]

^

[lean fog]

we just typed that at the same time that’s crazy

[polar moon]

3rd pinstress in in putrified ducts

[scenic stirrup]

We share one brain cell

Where

[polar moon]

.. dead

[lean fog]

yeah but idk because when I fought second sentinel pinstress was gone

[manic pewter]

Yeah it seems that they were hunting down the pinstresses so it wouldnt be surprising they trained a robot on them

[scenic stirrup]

Yea maybe she got turned into a lumafly that controlled the second sentinel

[polar moon]

Where you claim the thing that defies maggot water

[hallow marten]

KKKK

[scenic stirrup]

Oh wreath of purity

[lean fog]

I like that theory lol

[edgy nebula]

The citadel and pinstresses had an alliance before the citadel turned on them, so itd be very likely

[lean fog]

why would they train them on mirror moves though wouldn’t that just ensure second sentinel lose cuz pinstress prolly knows how to counter her own moves

[polar moon]

I like the theory that pinstresses gave their knowledge to the citadel, which citadel used then betrayed the pinstresses

[hallow marten]

Well, pintress says that Cittadel cittizens learn the pin arts from the sisters. So maybe second sentinel just leaned from the commom guards of the Cittadel

[edgy nebula]

Not a theory, pretty sure she directly mentions it

[manic pewter]

Thats a possibility too, but like the x slash move we dont see anywhere else

[polar moon]

fr?

[hallow marten]

I may be wrong, but I remember that dialog in game, so it's not a theory, I think

[polar moon]

lol

[scenic stirrup]

The third sister is the corpses thats wearing a grass suit?

[polar moon]

ye needolin it

[hallow marten]

Where?

[scenic stirrup]

Thats depressing

[lean fog]

but is second sentinel evil? he seemed like he was doing our bidding

[edgy nebula]

“Our grand Citadel learnt well from the training of Pinstresses past. Then it went and turned those teachings upon us!”
“Despite our superior skills, our numbers have always been few and their strength overwhelmed.”

[edgy nebula]

No, i doubt they had any part in killing pinstresses

[lean fog]

well yeah he was kinda dead

[polar moon]

I feel second sentinel was more of a weapon developed by the citadel

[lean fog]

Like a nuke with the launch codes hidden throughout the citadel

[polar moon]

YES

[lean fog]

fire theory? I doubt it

[polar moon]

Or maybe one that was sabotaged

[scenic stirrup]

Out of topic but i absolutely adore what shakra says about her master. I think its the best side story in the game

[lean fog]

I just don’t get why second sentinel actively hunts down enemies

[hallow marten]

Maaan, the third pintress is in the putrified ducts. How did I not played the needolin there?

[brisk thunder]

second sentinal skill

charge attack from pinstress
jump+spin from seth
jump+diagonal slash from lace
parry from lace
long distance attack similar to shaman crest

[lean fog]

bro that parry from lace omfg

[scenic stirrup]

only old age could beat her master and shes happy for her and how she sings for her at the end despite what her tribe might

[polar moon]

it was just a nuke developed by the citadel

[scenic stirrup]

It was peak cinema ✍️🔥

[polar moon]

and the nuke was trained by others, by their will or without it

[ebon silo]

2nd sentinel & Hornet: The modern retelling of Argus Panoptes

Argus Panoptes was a giant with a hundred eyes, the perfect watchman who never truly slept. Hera set him to guard Io, a maiden transformed into a cow, and he kept his watch faithfully. But Zeus sent Hermes, who lulled Argus’s eyes shut with music and killed him. To honor her servant, Hera placed Argus’s eyes on the feathers of her sacred peacock.

This is where sentinel and hornet comes in

The Sentinel was built to watch over the Citadel, tireless and unyielding, like Argus with his hundred eyes. It never slept, even as the kingdom crumbled, even when its siblings were gone. Its words echoed of duty — “Protect the pure, cut down the cursed” — though it knew it was alone forever.

When Hornet came, climbing toward the heights, the Sentinel stood against her. Not out of hatred, but because it was bound to guard. Like Hermes felling Argus with music, Hornet broke through not by malice but by destiny’s hand.

Defeated, the Sentinel did not curse her — it honored her, as Hera once honored Argus by placing his eyes on the peacock’s tail. Its watch ended, but its duty was remembered.

Why is the cool down still 15 seconds

[lean fog]

Is silksong lore just explained by Greek mythology??

[ebon silo]

Everything is a modern retelling of a Greek god

[lean fog]

Lmfao no wonder TC never ran out of lore

[scenic stirrup]

If silk song wins goty itll be historic

[whole holly]

Lifeblood is Dionysus

[lean fog]

isn’t the competition indie vs indie vs indie

[hallow marten]

Sure it would, but the game probably wont be

[sharp valley]

its crazy how hornets weaver grandparents werent even sentient

[whole holly]

Soundtrack should will AOTY

[scenic stirrup]

Exp 33 hades 2 and silk song 💀

[polar moon]

you could say...

[whole holly]

what? herrah is first generation of weaver, king was most likely Spider

[manic pewter]

Ok but thats wrong, the sentinel was inactive, it wasnt "tireless and unyielding" and it DEFINITELY slept. It literally never said protect the pure and cut down the cursed. The sentinel didnt stand against hornet, you have to go out of your way to fight it. Also "its watch ended" no it didnt, it keeps fighting stuff after you beat it

[lean fog]

Christopher is just pumping out bangers (anyone notice the deepnest motif in haunted bell hart?)

[manic pewter]

That genuinely looks like chatgpt making stuff up

[polar moon]

kinda true

[sharp valley]

herrah is hornets mom and herras parents probably werent sentient

[polar moon]

anyways coming back to important stuff, y'all think crust king Khans ass crusts?

[whole holly]

i misread your comment, i guess herrah's parents weren't ascended to weaverhood yeah

[ebon silo]

the grandmother silk: the modern retelling of the morais(fate from Greece)

A pale being mother who desperate of becoming a mother decided to weave and thread silk and life (like how the morai weave and thread life deciding how you live and how you die) weaved the weavers into a high being to be called her divine daughters but one day they left realizing the mother could not escape fate no matter how much she weave and thread silk and life she will be forever infertile and cannot have a child

For even mortals like loam too cannot escape the same fate of the mother for as no matter how hard they work no matter how they pray no matter what they can never received enlightenment

Shitpost 101

[hallow marten]

Is there somewhere with the lore we know about the weavers now written? I really want to read more about it

[ebon silo]

Wdym now written?

[lean fog]

Are there similar amounts of lore in silksong and hk? Rn I feel like hk has tons of lore

[hallow marten]

"what we know now (after SS)" written down, annotated...

[whole holly]

everything we learn from Silksong i guess

[sinful nimbus]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Weavers

[ebon silo]

Weavers were created by GMS shown by the first sinner > at some point GMS fell asleep weavers build the citadel halfway then left when they got the chance and made the conductors do their thing and also invented capitalism and such such

Though this is just a very very short summary

[rocky lily]

What happens after the knights sealing breaks? Does the radiance enter pharloom?

[manic pewter]

For anyone who wants it, heres shakras singing in the trails end quest

[polar moon]

brochacho they escaped because they learned the true motives of her action, not BCS she was infertile 💔

[ebon silo]

Nah she was infertile

[polar moon]

I'm not saying that she wasnt

most bugs aren't like hornet

[ebon silo]

What was her true motive anyway

[polar moon]

control over kingdoms

[rocky lily]

Why do the bugs love silk

[ebon silo]

No I dont think so? I'm pretty sure she was desperate to have a child and tried to have one

From weavers to phantom to lace i mean cmon

[polar moon]

I thought she just wanted hornet for her silk to reach more and more

[edgy barn]

She wants a child but she also wants the kingdom

[white blaze]

.

[ebon silo]

She wanted hornet to keep lace alive and also to keep control on the kingdom at the same time

[hallow marten]

Wait, who are we talking about? Mother Silk?

[ebon silo]

No we are talking about absolute batman who we know is losing to absolute joker

[polar moon]

bro lace was in a fine state (I think) + silky mommy purely wanted her silk to reach people from outside of pharloom (which is shown in the cut ending), to which she needed hornet

[whole holly]

Absolute Hornet ? basically weaver queen

[polar moon]

everything shows she just wanted control over other kingdoms to spread her silk

[whole holly]

i hate fact that Team Cherry is keeping Abyss Creature mysterious

[ebon silo]

lace would not survive for long if hornet was not binded literally look at phantom dude

[edgy barn]

If GMS did not had enough Silk to keep Lace alive, she wouldn't be doing the haunting, and if the haunting if the reason she doesn't have enough, she wouldn't have started it in the first place

[polar moon]

.. isn't that the whole point???

[whole holly]

what is whole point and why is it whole point?

[edgy barn]

Phantom is a discarded and forgotten child.

[ebon silo]

I guess weavers weave silk for her at the time I guess fuzzy lore

[hallow marten]

Dude, if you have time to read all the messages, nice, but I don't. Anyway, now I got it

[ebon silo]

why was she discarded again

[edgy barn]

Never explained or hinted at

[ebon silo]

Mmm so more assumptions to follow dead end I guess

[polar moon]

abyss is unexplored, wild. It killed the pale king who tried to use it and explore it, it almost destroyed pharloom because snail shamans and hornet tried to use it, it literally backfires when that steel soul exclusive guy tried to make a saviour out of abyss. Abyss is something that shall never be truly explored and mastered, because it always leads to no good

[sharp valley]

i think that the phantom just grew up and was mortal so the gms abandoned her and made her manage the pollution of areas that are nearby the citadel

[ebon silo]

but I'm sure GMS motive wasn't to control other kingdoms atleast..?

[polar moon]

it was gng

[sharp valley]

lace was immortal, so gms liked her more

like the phantom we fight is an old person

[whole holly]

not Abyss dude,i mean Abyss Creature, lifeblood being, in Abyss Lifeblood room and Godhome Lifeblood Room

[whole holly]

Phantom was probably like Eva and abandoned because she was frail, but Phantom is better still

[polar moon]

.. same applies life blood gng

[whole holly]

not really, i don't think it should remain mystery, entire point of lore is to eradicate mystery

[sharp valley]

i dont think that eva was abandoned, she just outlived everyone in the weaverhouse

[polar moon]

Eva was literally kept in a chamber where she would be always alive

she was kept on life support

[whole holly]

Rune Harp found in Weavenest Atla: "Hide her deep, the despised child, our shame shown in shell of iron. She is a wish cast vain, divinity mimicked in form too frail."

[lean fog]

but no weavers were able to bind her until hornet

[sharp valley]

damn

[mint furnace]

Weavers have a problem with not killing their own then leaving them in the worst possible situation

[polar moon]

Bcs hornet is literally built different ig

[scenic stirrup]

Who's worse the weavers who betrayed gms or gms herdelf

[mint furnace]

Three times weavers just decided to trap people and make their situations extremely painful to themselves or others instead of mercy killing

[edgy barn]

...Their voices... Their song...
...Their memory...
...Bind their shells...
...Bind their souls...
...Bind them all...
...Raise them... Up...
...To devote... Eternal...
...One mind... One union...

...They are ours... Bound forever...

(GMS during the unravelled silk heart secuence)

[lean fog]

gms probably otherwise silksong wouldn’t exist

[whole holly]

i wish there was scrapped crests in game, one that resembles Pale King

[polar moon]

both are like kinda gray characters ig?

[mint furnace]

It’s a little vague to say, but considering that the weavers were ascended to borderline godhood and complained about it already makes them in the wrong to me

[whole holly]

why does unravelled, lace and bell beast have silk hearts?

[mint furnace]

“We weren’t born this way and instead we given minds???? Fuck you mom”

[scenic stirrup]

Was gms the dude who did the whiteward experiments

[polar moon]

nope

[ebon silo]

Gameplay reasons

[mint furnace]

That would be the citadel caste

[lean fog]

lace is literally made of silk and unravelled is animated by silk and bell beast was under the control of silk

[polar moon]

these were just fucked up bugs who thought silk would save eveyone

[whole holly]

what would be lore reason?

[ebon silo]

Nothing

[scenic stirrup]

Who did all the slavery of the underworks ppl

[lean fog]

that’s my attempted explanation? Idk

[mint furnace]

They got hungry and ate them

[whole holly]

how does Silk Heart form?

[ebon silo]

The citadel after weavers left

[polar moon]

citadel higher ups

[whole holly]

thanks

[mint furnace]

Silk hearts feel a little last minute to me tbh, they almost seem to exist just to make the harpoon work

[lean fog]

no idea and I don’t think it was specified (I missed like all the needolin dialogue)

[mint furnace]

Not that it’s a bad thing, just an observation

[scenic stirrup]

Whos responsible for bile water 🤔

[lean fog]

me sorry

[mint furnace]

Short answer: citadel
Long answer: citadel

[ebon silo]

Like what I originally said was just a gameplay mechanic but not tied to any lore reasons for all we know hornet could have all 3 silk hearts at the beginning of the game

[edgy barn]

The one complaining about it was First Sinner, who either was imprisoned by the citadel under the weavers (meaning her discovery is not the reason they rebelled) or GMS was the one who imprisoned her, which would justify the weavers rebelling

[polar moon]

@lean fog

[azure wave]

so the conductors? but aren't they dead?

[lean fog]

I vomited my bad

[ebon silo]

Universal term I suppose

[mint furnace]

If I put my child in timeout for being that mad at being born it doesn’t justify the rest of my children overthrowing me

[whole holly]

GMS was control freak mother and queen

[polar moon]

under workers are literally said to be bugs who can't stop working

[lean fog]

wait so like why couldn’t GMS reverse her decision to make them weavers

[edgy barn]

"Timeout" bro she was locked in a cell for eternity.

[ebon silo]

what???

[mint furnace]

Like I seriously do not get the weavers point. What, did they want to be the little spiders??

[hallow marten]

Lace and Unravelled at least are related to silk. Is there any major relation between Bell Beast and silk?

[polar moon]

like not BCS of people, but BCS of their mindset

[mint furnace]

Because the weavers dipped and GMS was imprisoned

[lean fog]

weavers grew sentient apparently but GMS should have had enough power to control them…

[scenic stirrup]

the contrast between gms and the pale king is such a nice inverse of each other. The pale king sacrificed his children to save the kingdom. Gms sacrificed her kingdom to save lace 💀

[mint furnace]

There’s no one to free her because again the weavers are assholes, if that was the reason she just straight up was not freed because they didn’t care

[lean fog]

guys is it just me or is this getting scarily close to AI

[ebon silo]

They are often shown greedy and wanted "it" for themselves mostly hell they are perhaps "hinted" to even hate wyrms/the pale king showing in the red memory the weavers are trying to persuade hornet to be more weaver than wyrm

[whole holly]

control freak is someone who is desperate for control, she was mother of weavers, she was authoritative figure for both weaver's then Citadel and Pharloom though haunting, everything to achieve full control

[mint furnace]

Yeah, it’s just I don’t really know if GMS is in the wrong much at all

[polar moon]

.. why did I think your pfp was just a guy with balloons💔

[edgy barn]

Again, we have no evidence that's why the weavers rebelled. First Sinner was most likely imprisoned by the weavers

[ebon silo]

You want the image?

[polar moon]

nah

[lean fog]

I mean controlling an entire kingdom is like

[mint furnace]

The citadel abuse is dubious but also I severely doubt she cares about the lesser bugs, she’s trying to save lace

[scenic stirrup]

I dont think gms truly loved lace tho its kinda a morbid type of love bc if she actually cared for her kids she wouldve took care of phantom also

[ebon silo]

good I was planning to gatekeep it anyway 😛😛

[mint furnace]

Gods don’t care about their citizens (besides the pale king because he’s goated)

[silk dirge]

bc bell beast was covered in silk when you first find it

[edgy barn]

In one of the silk heart sequences she talks about how she wants to bind them all so that they are one mind devoted to her eternally

[whole holly]

and help Widow

[ebon silo]

I would assume GMS realized phantom was going to die no matter how much silk she gives because phantom was a being made of soul and silk not entirely of silk like lace I think..

[lean fog]

yeah who threw widow into the mix vro

[mint furnace]

I don’t know GMS knows widow exists lol

[lean fog]

she did NOT have to haunt bellhart like what is bro doing

[mint furnace]

Widow was just fucked over by the weavers by following GMS instead of helping imprison her

[edgy barn]

Silk is made from Soul. Both Lace and Phantom are made from Silk.

[ebon silo]

She did it for the fun of the game

[scenic stirrup]

I feel like the idea of lace being a perfect kid was more important to her than actually being a mother

[mint furnace]

She’s trying to help GMSes goal of finding weavers

[lean fog]

oh yeah let me kidnap this entire town and then just play my harp

[whole holly]

she tracks downs weavers yet doesn't know weaver exists devoted to her in her own kingdom?

[ebon silo]

no the other separate soul

[mint furnace]

Widow is a useless weaver, they can’t bind silk

[lean fog]

common widow L

[whole holly]

that doesn't address my point

[mint furnace]

They can manipulate it but it seems GMS needs an actual weaver to be freed

[edgy barn]

Widow is haunted so GMS should know she exists

[mint furnace]

Which is

[mint furnace]

Widow is not haunted, widow is a weaver who went insane

[azure wave]

wait widow is haunted? I thought she served GMS of her own free will?

[eternal sigil]

for years people have wondered if Hornet is void. I think we need to ask ourselves if Zaza is weed

[lean fog]

ion know half the guys are haunted

[scenic stirrup]

I thought widow was a weaver that got captured and got punished by having her weaverness removed by being impaled by long pins

[manic pewter]

I thought she was just her own thing and was repurposing GMS's threads to her own purposes

[whole holly]

if GMS truly cared about her children she would help phantom stated by comment i originally replied to, and she would also help weaver

[eternal sigil]

also yeah GMS is a dogshit parent

[azure wave]

you mean tobacco?

[lean fog]

Yeah i think GMS cared about lace cuz why else would she have done what she did in true ending

[mint furnace]

Alright I’ll explain the widow timeline to the best of my ability

• weavers are born from GMS
• the first sinner debacle happens, weavers riot and imprison GMS
• Widow disagrees and defends her
• weavers put widow in a torture device
• widow slowly goes insane, however is still trying to help GMS by getting more bugs affected by the haunting (GMSes one way to hunt weavers)
• we show up and kill her

This is what I gather from her dialogue, journal, and the needolin dialogue at cradle

[lean fog]

how the hell- which torture device??

[scenic stirrup]

Oh the weavers did that to her

[azure wave]

wait weavers did that to her?>

[ebon silo]

The pins stucked behind her back

[lean fog]

😭

[scenic stirrup]

Thats why she cant use silk skills unlike the first sinner

And thats why their fights feel similar

[eternal sigil]

• Lace, the current idolized one and in favor, is deeply resentful over her stunted mental state and basically being a living doll stuck on life support
• Phantom is left to rot running the literal waste disposal apparatus of the Citadel
• of Pharloom's living Weavers, one has been in solitary confinement for ages and the other one has been mutilated and brainwashed into servitude
• all other remaining Weavers left Pharloom ASAP

[edgy barn]

Now I have to admit this evidence is dubious, and I kind of regret to have brought this up but haunted enemies have threads come out of them when Hornet plays the needolin. Widow gets these same threads when playing the needolin. Now, there's no way to access legitimately in-game because you get the needolin from Widow, but she also has fully implemented needolin dialogue. I think we will have to wait for a boss rush/boss refight system to be completely certain.

[scenic stirrup]

"Unlike" my bad

[mint furnace]

Yes

[subtle plaza]

does hornet break mirrors with her face in the united states

[lean fog]

wait what was First Sinners dialogue again

[eternal sigil]

Even if GMS does love her progeny she is unquestionably abusive

[edgy barn]

give me a second

[scenic stirrup]

She only loves one of them which is lace

[mint furnace]

The… one that stops her from binding silk

Hornet literally calls it a torture device

[lean fog]

do we know where it’s located? or is it kinda just in the journal

[edgy barn]

Before the fight:

...Faded...
...Forgotten...
...First...
...Our Silk... Our rage...
...Wait, and hate...
...Wait, and die...
During the fight:

I did not wane!
I did not forget!
Sustained by fury!
Cursed by Silk!
Cursed with Silk!
Cursed to know...
The sin... the truth...

[mint furnace]

• “sin”

• given the ability to think

[lean fog]

Our silk Our rage implies sentience??

[edgy barn]

After the fight ...She called us daughters... Called us divine... She lied...

[edgy barn]

The sin is knowing the truth, yk, the thing she was imprisoned for

[lean fog]

why do they fight hornet?

[ebon silo]

I guess based on the "first... Our silk" weavers were made just so for them to weave more silk?

[mint furnace]

Okay here’s the thing

Do we have explicit evidence she was imprisoned for knowing, or getting mad at knowing

[edgy barn]

FS doesn't actually fight Hornet, it's a memory.

[mint furnace]

Because it’s vague from what I remember

[lean fog]

What!!

FS is dead then?

[ebon silo]

For a long time

[edgy barn]

Yeah, dying to first sinner doesn't count as a real death and if you play the needolin, instead of FS stopping to sing, the lines play automatically, just like other memory bosses

[scenic stirrup]

Do u think the radiance is tied to silk song in anyway being a silk moth and all

[lean fog]

oh what dang! that kinda changes my view ig

[scenic stirrup]

Also interesting that gms didn't get children of her own she just made random normal ass bugs into higher beings

[lean fog]

well the only relationship I could find is she indirectly helped give birth to hornet (she made PK panicked)

[manic pewter]

Wait when does it transition to a memory tho? when we try to bind them or when we enter the cage? or when?

[lean fog]

I don’t think there’s a second higher being in pharloom

[scenic stirrup]

Couldve visited another kingdom to have a dalliance lmao

[lean fog]

bro have you seen her size also she would have had to essentially relinquish her hold on pharloom

[scenic stirrup]

Also yea hallownest had a bunch of higher beings chilling meanwhile pharloom has non

Except maybe she killed them to assert dominance or something

[edgy barn]

"Penitent, First of the First.
Guilty of the sin of apostasy.
Penance by constriction.
Absolution denied."

FS's specific sin is apostasy, meaning she left the religion. If she was imprisoned by GMS, that means she stopped recognized GMS as their godly mother. If she was imprisoned by the other weavers, that means she stopped recognizing her fellows as divine beings.

[lean fog]

Literally 1984

[scenic stirrup]

Also weren't karmelita, pale stag, nyleth, crust king khann higher beings?

[edgy barn]

Nyleth could be one, the others aren't

[lean fog]

Maybe but tbh I really doubt it

Idk how the ‘old hearts’ worked

[scenic stirrup]

She killed all of them when she couldve easily chosen one of them to have biological kids

[lean fog]

Karmelita is still alive

[scenic stirrup]

not anymore!

[lean fog]

well we kinda kill her for the memento but that’s beside the point!!

[azure wave]

green prince is also alive

[scenic stirrup]

Ye thats why i said pale stag

[limpid summit]

The only heart boss who might (?) be a higher being is Nyleth and even then she’s probably more of an Isma type character

[manic pewter]

not anymore!

nyleth is so weird

[edgy barn]

Karmelita and Nyleth are female, GP already had a partner, and Khann already ruled half of Pharloom and likely wouldn't have wanted to share.

[lean fog]

Nyleth really loves forcing the players to shred her down with daggers

[edgy barn]

Also, GMS might not want to mate with a "lowly bug"

[lean fog]

Guess she needed a trimming

[scenic stirrup]

Meaning weavers are still racist

😔

[lean fog]

Weavers are actually so racist bruh red memory weavers are like edging hornet on. Herrah seemed to just want the best for her kid though

[scenic stirrup]

Also weird how u can kill the judge babies in blasted steps but hornet chose not to kill the broodling in the slab

[lean fog]

you can?

are they a journal entry??

[scenic stirrup]

Yep

[edgy barn]

Weavers every time Hornet does something that could be remotely interpreted as wyrm-like:

[lean fog]

ah well I guess pharloom isn’t getting any judges anytime soon

[azure wave]

How does the GMS haunting work exactly?

[lean fog]

gms add silk boom you’re cooked

[ancient dock]

None of them are higher beings, when you go against a higher being they have white screen cards before the boss fights

[lean fog]

NKG 😭

[scenic stirrup]

Then bugs of high birth then ✍️🔥

Also the screen doesnt flash for gms

[lean fog]

New silksong style

[ancient dock]

It does

[scenic stirrup]

Just shows her title like the og hollow knight fight

[edgy barn]

GMS reaches into your body and mind with threads of her Silk (it"s easier if the whiteward already put some in it) and effecttively turns you into a zombie

[heavy gyro]

Eternal ordeal

[lean fog]

That implies lost lace is a higher being

[ancient dock]

She a void being her screen card was black

[scenic stirrup]

Iirc that title style was also used in the og hollow knight fight

[azure wave]

but then how was there a choral commandment for hornet's abduction? zombies can't write commandments....

[scenic stirrup]

So it isnt quite new

[lean fog]

Her screen card was black because the BG was black

[heavy gyro]

Neither lost lace nor gms had a screen card, their names were just large and centered

[edgy barn]

Yeah we can't really explain that.

[scenic stirrup]

I might be wrong tho

[azure wave]

oh I see

[ancient dock]

Well Grimm BG was red but still had a white screen card

[lean fog]

I feel like it was just a different style than hollow knight

[edgy barn]

Hornet even describes how the bug that captured her were all haunted by a singular will, yet they still needed to write out orders for some reason?

[ancient dock]

Nah because GMS still has a white screen card

[azure wave]

also why do some bugs like the skarr seem more independent then the other haunted bugs yet they are still described as being haunted?

[heavy gyro]

She doesn't

[azure wave]

damn I didn't know that

[edgy barn]

The skarr used to be protected by Karmelita's song. She's not singing anymore but some of the protection remains

[ancient dock]

Maybe it just the style

[ancient dock]

It fills the screen though unlike other bosses

[scenic stirrup]

Btw what powers the hollow knights nail skills in the pure vessel fight. Is it soul? Or is he tapping into his wyrm powers

[edgy barn]

It's Soul

[limpid summit]

The pale shell of PV gives it Soul affinity from PK and maybe WL

[ancient dock]

My bad Grimm has a red and black screen Card

[limpid summit]

It was then taught spells by who knows yeah coulda been PK

[edgy barn]

PK himself I assume

[ancient dock]

I assume most bosses with screen sized titles are HB though

[limpid summit]

Rad and NKG (avatar of NMH) so yeah

[fast spruce]

Guys are the Mantis Princes brothers?

[ancient dock]

Lace is the only exception

[fast spruce]

I keep saying people claim this due to the entwined line

But I think it's metaphorical?

[ancient dock]

Pretty sure there lovers tbh

[fast spruce]

They are lovers obviously

Everyone knows that, but are they related?

Is it Incest? Like apparently some translations made it Incest?

Idk I just keep seeing people claim this

[ancient dock]

I’m honestly not sure, the Green Prince refers to him as a partner

[flat hearth]

Are the snail shamans void or just associated with void

[fast spruce]

They are not void

[ancient dock]

Associated

[fast spruce]

They have genders

[flat hearth]

Do we know what they are?

[ancient dock]

Both are Male

[fast spruce]

Snails

[fast spruce]

No the Shamans

[flat hearth]

I'm curious if they are actually snails or like if they just need the shells to manipulate void

Or are snails just inherently able to manipulate void?

[ancient dock]

I’m pretty sure the one in bone bottom is female while the care keeper and the other is male

[edgy barn]

We know of three female shamans across both games.

[ancient dock]

Thought he was talking about the prince

[edgy barn]

Ah I see

[fast spruce]

Guys I am not Homophobic, the Princes are gay I am not denying that

Sorry if I expressed it in a mean way, I know y'all aren't accusing me of that

[hallow marten]

No. Before the battle, we can see a note that clearly mention them as lovers

[ancient dock]

It cool, I think their is a lot of confusion regarding those characters

[hallow marten]

Ignore the message, I tried to send a few minutos ago

[fast spruce]

I think some translations fucked it up

That's probably why people are confused

[pastel timber]

i saw this actually, most translations have them down as brothers, but in english theyre 100% not

some of the translations mess with the wording in subtly annoying ways

[fast spruce]

Indie Games tend to have problems with translations, it's always 50/50 in quality

[polar latch]

i adamantly believe that Nuu is a slug. thoughts?

[pastel timber]

turn each letter of nuu upside down...

[main osprey]

Is Nuu a different type of snail from the shamans

[limpid summit]

We don’t know if Nuu is a slug cause Salubra is one but she looks like an irl slug sort of and she’s totally related to Unn

[pastel timber]

nuu is a slug its shell is a backpack

[polar latch]

hear me out here...

[limpid summit]

I just can’t prove it yet

[main osprey]

AHH I thought so was just about to type that

[main osprey]

I thought Salubra was like a maggot

[pastel timber]

i mean there are higher being versions of species that exist
radiance and moths is the best example

[polar latch]

Unn has limbs. i dont have access to my drawing tablet rn. but hear me out.

[limpid summit]

Same when I played but WJ says she’s a slug
The thing is like Salubra isn’t a creation of Unn

[pastel timber]

yeah unn dreamed up greenpath and as far as we're aware thats all they did

[limpid summit]

I think Unn is meant to be a slug for us but a unique species in game

[polar latch]

unn so powerful that just dreaming created all of greenpath. unn solos gms

[zinc pivot]

Keep cooking
You might just be good enough to be ass jim souschef

[pastel timber]

yeah higher beings are not blood related to the lower species counterparts, seer isnt the same species as radiance, probably

[main osprey]

I mean Nuu and Unn are like inverse symmetry

[polar latch]

if i had access to my tablet rn id draw a full thing of this but im Out so my mouse and laptop are all you get

[main osprey]

What is Nuu's whole deal is she just really into learning, she doesn't seem to be a fighter, but then she gets all weird about it with us

[zinc pivot]

She’s weirdly enough, part of the hunter’s guild

[pastel timber]

she seems to revere fully grown hunters, wanting a taste of what all that hunting tastes like

[main osprey]

Is the Hunter in HK part of the guild

[polar latch]

Nuu shouting "WHERE'S MY DRAGONATOR?!"

[pastel timber]

theres a hunters guild?

[zinc pivot]

Isn’t slug a kind of scavenger too

[polar latch]

oh yeah so i have a little ecology thing i really like

[zinc pivot]

We thought hunter and nuu might belong to a guild of sort based on the hunters mark they gave us

[limpid summit]

Headcanon it was a completely different sort of character and then TC was like what if we make her Unn

[pastel timber]

i thought hunter was just hk's version of predator

[pastel timber]

ohh right interesting, are they the same mark?

[polar latch]

in the files, these guys are referred to as aspids. they also obviously look very similar to vengeflies. what if they're a sort of intermediary species, between the two? with the goopy sac on the tail growing much smaller (as we know aspids came first, due to primal aspids), this could be a sort of living fossil type species!

[main osprey]

I love that Hornet is just on the lookout for the fluffiest friendliest bug

[polar latch]

man now i wanna revisit my "classifying everything in silksong" doc that i never started

[zinc pivot]

There’s minor difference, but the design is the same

[pastel timber]

honestly i was wondering if we'd see more species from hk return, but having gone through all of silksong it seems just unlikely that any non-sentient species could successfully migrate the wastes

[main osprey]

So close to a perfect furred form... If only they'd been able to breed out the spines.

Makes me think she genuinely likes the little fleas

[wintry prairie]

She seems to love the big one

[pastel timber]

she definitely loves the trips she takes with the caravan

[zinc pivot]

She said it herself when travelling with the caravan

[polar latch]

i think its more that, in the times before civilization, or at least before the wastes were as inhospitable maybe(?), certain species like aspids and vengeflies were much more prominent. i just think that the aknids are FAR too similar to both aspids and vengeflies to be unrelated

[main osprey]

Gives me dad/mum that didn't want the dog being closest to it vibe

[polar latch]

i also believe the fertids could be related to the mosskin, but specifically i think they're what mosskin looked like before Unn happened (this is more of a stretch)

[zinc pivot]

By age alone she would be their ancestor

[pastel timber]

its definitely an interesting thought, maybe a common ancestor or something, we know practically nothing of the ancient world though so its hard to make a call

[zinc pivot]

But yeah funny thoughts

[pale grove]

makes sense but man why doesnt the cutscene show it at all. she's just there sitting got me thinking she cant wait for it to end

[pastel timber]

isnt everything in greenpath a direct result of unn's dreams forming them into being?

[polar latch]

oh also, Shakra mentions that the quills are plucked from "Golpeni", do we ever see anything with that name?

[pastel timber]

she sits down for like 5 seconds at a time before going and getting the shit beat out of her by savage beastfly shes just really tired </3

[main osprey]

Why would she be their ancestor?

[pastel timber]

assumedly theyre a species from her tribes homeland

[zinc pivot]

It’s a distant land bird, i doubt it would show up in Pharloom

[main osprey]

Technically isn't Hornet the only one of their kind that will ever be

[polar latch]

i dont think we ever learned what the quill iselda sells was taken from, i wonder if theyre similar?

[pale grove]

what quills

[zinc pivot]

Because too lazy to type out great x n times grandmother

[pastel timber]

we see 3 different types of quills between the two games, therell just be multiple species with feathers in the game

[polar latch]

"bird" i wonder... maybe its something like the maskflies/brushflits? i could see a similar species having useful feathers...

[zinc pivot]

Or maybe, its like a fayforn

[polar latch]

although, it would be funny if they were actually the feathery antenna of a moth-like creature

[pale grove]

can next hollow knight game be in a kingdom which is not dying out?

[zinc pivot]

Like that giant chicken on mount fay for example

[polar latch]

oh my god mini fayforn...

[main osprey]

But she's not really though, Herrah and the Pale King are their ancestors

Hornet is like an artificial being, there's no way to create more

[pastel timber]

we know that all sorts of creatures produce all sorts of fabrics
craws have the rag pelts
weavers have actual silk
the fayforn definitely has fluffy feathers
fleas have what looks like wool of some sort

[main osprey]

She's like their great aunt

[zinc pivot]

I meant to use that word as a substitute not a literal ancestor
As in hornet is about as old as fleas ancestor

[polar latch]

true true! i might design something relating to this...

[zinc pivot]

Though i dunno how long flea lifespan is

[main osprey]

Kind of a sad fate for Hornet really

I wonder if she'd live long enough to see the New Age

[polar latch]

also, first architect was absolutely an ant right? like the twelth architect and the choruses all look far too ant-like to not be

[zinc pivot]

Hornet is still young, in terms of pale being standard

[main osprey]

I hope she could get a family and settle down eventually

[polar latch]

also i find it very interesting that Trobbio and Marissa are both butterflies. I wonder if TC would have designed Marissa differently if she was made now as opposed to back in the original games development...

[pastel timber]

shes going through her edgy rebellious teenager phase in hk thats why shes such a bitch to you, then in silksong shes in her young adult era where her whimsy and hope is coming back after all the edge wears off

[zinc pivot]

Knowing her age settling down isn’t really an option

[pastel timber]

she says that nobody can match her lifespan, but lace is older than she is, and also kind of dependent on her to survive now, so those two can be a family im sure

[polar latch]

either that or butterflies have some SERIOUS sexual dimorphism going on lmao

[zinc pivot]

Unless she got to pale king level of ancient and decide to make a kingdom of sort

[pastel timber]

hornetland: the only kingdom where the void loves the ruler

[main osprey]

Yeah unless there's another tribe of weavers somewhere that can make silk

[polar latch]

i mean choruses is basically canon, we already know about bugs souls being turned into silkflies, which then power the cogwork bugs

[main osprey]

Oh I wonder if Eva could be bound to Lace

[polar latch]

choruses are called that cuz theyre powered by like two trobbillion silkflies

[zinc pivot]

Chorus has literal evidence of silkflies flying out of its eyesocket

[pastel timber]

gleamflies are the silken souls of dead bugs, all the cogwork robots have gleamflies in them, theyre all powered by souls

[main osprey]

Wouldn't that let lace regenerate her existing silk?

[pastel timber]

that would be really neat from a lore perspective actually

[polar latch]

thought they were called silkflies?

[zinc pivot]

Well we dunno if lace can incorporate crest the same way hornet can

[pastel timber]

the fairy lights you can get for your bellhome says they have gleamflies in them

[main osprey]

Joining the two sisters together

[polar latch]

i wonder if theyre two different things. i think silkflies are the things inside the cogwork bugs (and i swear thats what theyre called in the files?) and gleamflies could be a naturally occuring species like lumaflies

or it could just be a file name discrepancy lol

[pastel timber]

are we sure that lumaflies are naturally occuring and not something similar to silk/gleamflies, seer turns into one after all

[zinc pivot]

Remind me of the times arguing about whether gleamflies and lumaflies are a same genus

Becaue yeah they are different species taxonomically

[polar latch]

i feel like theyre naturally occuring, we see clusters of them in fog canyon

[zinc pivot]

4 vs 2 wings be damned
Why does souls have different species

[polar latch]

thoughts on my theory of aknids being an intermediary species between aspids and vengeflies?

[zinc pivot]

Maybe we need to have aknid queen boss to be sure

[edgy barn]

I thought they were two different things, gleamflies being the lumafly-equivalent while silkflies were the ones produced in whiteward and used on the robots.

[hollow crater]

I love Hollow Knight's world building but I don't understand the story/Meta-Narrative or the lore complemented to it, can someone explained to me why it's considered great?

Not tryna be hater, but I felt like HK's story is kinda okayish, not great

[main osprey]

Why can't lace wake up GMS?

Is it because she can't get to her?

[polar latch]

i mean we never see a primal aspid queen, and those def came before regular aspids. i wonder if aspids evolved the aspid mothers before or after the infection? maybe aknids split off from primal aspids somewhere along the line and became more like regular aspids, then started evolving closer to vengeflies?

[edgy barn]

We don't know what the conditions are for GMS to wake up.

[azure wave]

Why would she though..if she could?

[pastel timber]

all im thinking is if silk is soul, and gleamflies are made from the silken souls of dead bugs, could lumaflies be similar but made (naturally or otherwise) of the soul from dead bugs, hence why seer turns into one and why they can survive trapped in lanterns with no air or food for forever

[zinc pivot]

Aren’t the light in the confession room also the same flies?

[main osprey]

Because wasn't lace created to be loyal to GMS alone

[polar latch]

i thought silk was regular silk but imbued with soul, or at least thats how i took it

[pastel timber]

yeah but shes clearly grown past the mold she was created to fill