sk-lore

[craggy smelt]

Sharpe's time will come

[tacit kettle]

be prepared.. for scorpion the fly

[azure dirge]

I thought of shakra but it doesn’t feel right

[dapper willow]

she too tall

[azure dirge]

Lol

[molten python]

Shakra would be weird because she doesn't use a melee weapon.

[azure dirge]

Maybe we will end up playing a nosk :D

[verbal laurel]

Do we talk about corniffer who can pass through void for some reasons

[craggy smelt]

but yeah, i think i'd rather have a 3rd game be unconnected to the first two -same world, new characters

[molten python]

Quirrel before he came to Hallownest might be cool.

[azure dirge]

Maybe have old characters still make appearances though could be neat. It could also go further back and bring in lore characters or characters from things we’ve seen or heard from.

Could play a lost vessel for instance. Though that would lead to a lot of knight comparisons.

[verbal laurel]

I just wanted to know if you noticed that lace is doing hornet’s part in pharloom that she did in hallownest

[hidden crater]

Maybe THK if he wasnt a god damn cripple now

[azure dirge]

Yeah, very noticeable she’s Hornet’s counterpart in SK as Hornet was to Knight in HK.

[azure dirge]

I think the issue with THK is he’s too big.

[verbal laurel]

Huh maybe the Grimm troupe now

[azure dirge]

And gangly.

[hidden crater]

What an idea instilled does to a mf

[verbal laurel]

Nah grimm doesn’t walk after all

[craggy smelt]

would be kinda neat to see a vessel poking around somewhere
any number of them could have followed the Abyss to other lands

[molten python]

Seth would be cool.

[azure dirge]

How r we supposed to crawl through dirt and holes with THK huh?

[verbal laurel]

Seth???? Yeah not bad but can it be another vessel

[azure dirge]

Might be neat to see a vessel thats half grown.

[molten python]

Honestly I think Team Cherry made the right decision with Pablo.

[azure dirge]

We could also get smthn entirely new of course. Would be neat to play a character similar to some of the white knights from HK.

[tacit kettle]

idk about you guys but im pretty sure alchemist zylotol is the protagonist of the next dlc

[hidden crater]

Cut off his legs

[azure dirge]

So real.

You know a Nosk could be a cool protagonist. They are shapeshifters.

[hidden crater]

Cant wait for Lace Combat

Im seeing a pattern here...

[azure dirge]

Instead of crests and charms we collect masks

[azure dirge]

Zoteboat failed? Damn is that why I didn’t even know it existed?

[molten python]

Next game we should be a higher being and instead of a metroidvania it's a kingdom management strategy video game.

[hidden crater]

Nosk would be a master at identity fraud

[azure dirge]

Imagine if team cherry baited is into thinking we’d be playing Zote in the next game before introducing the actual protag.

[tacit kettle]

scorpion the fly

[azure dirge]

LOL, and you fail no matter what.

[hidden crater]

At the end is an unwinnable fight against the pale king where he takes everything you had

[craggy smelt]

Team Cherry revitalizes the RTS genre next with 'Wyrm Wars'

[azure dirge]

You either invest in the void to beat the end game threat and then the void kills you, or radiance and lifeblood overtake your kingdom, or another higher being comes and takes your kingdom, or you get eaten or killed by your offspring, or you get seized by your subjects and turned into a source of power.

No the next game you get to play as lifeblood.

And it’s a hoard expansion rts game

[valid kelp]

next game you play as a primal aspid

[tacit kettle]

plague inc styled hollow knight game would be kinda 🔥

[azure dirge]

Too op

[hidden crater]

Silksong will include a baby lace memory

[main osprey]

Do the snail shamans know what will happen? For Act 3?

[valid kelp]

ok but hear me out. 4 mask damage for every hit

[azure dirge]

Primal aspid would sweep without any metroidvania buffs

[main osprey]

I can't tell if they're just secretive and enigmatic or actively complicit?

[craggy smelt]

no, they thought the Void would do the trick, they didn't expect it to crawl up Silk's threads

[valid kelp]

https://tenor.com/view/fnb-get-this-man-a-true-gif-25257480

[main osprey]

Right cool ok so they're not "bad" guys just their plan had unintended consequences

[azure dirge]

They were technically right, the void wouldn’t have had the chance to climb up GMS threads throughout the kingdom if she didn’t fight so desperately to save lace with the cocoon.

[craggy smelt]

hornet is pissed, but they're all 'listen, you knew what we were about'

[azure dirge]

The reason all that happened is because GMS tried to take Hornet down with her, and Lace saved Hornet and GMS didn’t want to allow Lace to die with her.

[craggy smelt]

how else were they supposed to take down a pale being

[azure dirge]

It is partially their fault for not warning Hornet so she could be more prepared but also Hornet may not have considered it if she knew the void would be involved

[main osprey]

So a bit I don't understand is how the mask system works, we have Styx who wears a servant mask and seems to have forgotten who he was, or that personality has consumed him

But we saw quirrel in hollow knight remove his mask?

[craggy smelt]

don't worry, no one else understands how masks work either

[azure dirge]

Styx may just swap masks at his leisure. In steel soul Styx gets eaten by a Nosk it seems

[main osprey]

Unless the mask isn't that one?

[craggy smelt]

the mask Quirrel removes belongs to Monomon, his mistress
she gave it to him as part of some elaborate protection plan

[azure dirge]

Which mask? He carries the dreamers to sort of keep memory of things I believe and what he needs to do.

[hidden crater]

I beat every disease on mega brutal lemme give it a shot

[azure dirge]

That mask is basically a curse to bind him to his duty.

[craggy smelt]

that mask seems to suppress his memories, though they gradually return as he makes his way back to Monomon
possibly it also maintained his intelligence when he left the kingdom (not sure if Quirrel is naturally smart of if he was uplifted)

[azure dirge]

I think his original will begins to break through rather as he gets closer to monomon and remembers his original self

Quirrel has some insane willpower.

What if Styx already is a Nosk in original gameplay? The original eaten?

[craggy smelt]

I don't know what role in protecting Monomon the memory loss might have served
it felt more like something he suffered in the wastes, mentioning that he felt the sands wear away at his mind

but that might just be metaphorical

[azure dirge]

Yeah, the sands wear at it, but wearing another mask erodes a bugs identity as well

knight is noted to be special as his mind and resilience is one born of two voids, the endless wastes and the void below.

Only bugs with very strong wills can retain a sliver of their identity when another mask is worn, and even then it’s only a sliver.

[craggy smelt]

right, so the mask suppresses his current memories, but also protects him from losing intellect away from Hallownest
it isn't the wastes themselves that actually wear away the mind, but moving out into the wastes means you're away from the Pale King's beacon

[azure dirge]

Nosk seem to throw away their identities altogether which might be why they mimic and learn from those they copy.

[main osprey]

But then wouldn't he be subsumed by whatever that masks personality is?

Or is Styx just roleplaying 😄

[azure dirge]

I think it’s more than that. Because other nests do exist. It seems like the effects of a mask can only do so much out there in the wastes.

[azure dirge]

Well, if he is a nosk already… he would just be swapping identities.

[azure dirge]

The pale king has also been dead for a while, yet Hallownest still acts to some level as a sanctuary. There are also mask makers to consider, and the pale lacquer used in making masks.

[craggy smelt]

yeah, PK seemed to have invested the power into the land itself, and it persists even after his death
the Godseekers mention they can still sense it, even though PK was 'erased completely'

[azure dirge]

True. But Pharloom also exists, and it did exist before GMS took stake there as well.

And pharloom had many go out to other nests after it was established.

[craggy smelt]

yes, there are populations of bugs that have natural intelligence and don't need the beacon
PK uplifted non-sapient bugs to give himself more followers

[azure dirge]

Yeah

[craggy smelt]

I just can't tell if Quirrel is naturally intelligent or uplifted, so I'm not sure exactly what effects all this stuff - masks, wastelands, etc. are having on the type of mind he has

[azure dirge]

But the wastes seem to hold a peculiar quality about them. I mean they even managed to effect the knight, a vessel and demigod.

[craggy smelt]

I think that aspect of their strength is just the fact that they survived out in the wastes for ages, not that the wastes bestowed some kind of power on them

[azure dirge]

Masks seems to affect everyone. Some being born with them. Even our main characters can get masks through the mask shards and those strengthen them.

[azure dirge]

No, it didn’t give them a power, or strength really. I think it’s more that it tempered what was already there. Since being out in the wastes erodes the mind, the knight likely had their nature as a vessel reinforced in a way, or their will tempered by being in the wastes.

It’s like building immunity to poison. The knight existed somewhere that weathered will and focus.

[craggy smelt]

sure, it hardened them and made them stronger through adversity

[azure dirge]

Yeah.

[supple needle]

Lowkey why is lifeblood dangerous in silksong? It wasn’t at all in hollow knight even though it was all over the place

[azure dirge]

It still seems like it has some supernatural effect to it.

[azure dirge]

Lifeblood was dangerous in HK it’s just that all the higher beings around suppressed it and it’s main prophet there was sealed away near the abyss.

It was a known taboo and openly reviled in HK so bugs didn’t touch it,

[supple needle]

But wasn’t it being controlled by Joni? Or Atleast made by Joni

[azure dirge]

In Silksong the scientist began to spread and inject it into things.

[steep talon]

No

[craggy smelt]

it might have had difficulty spreading in Hallownest since everything was Infected - they were all basically already 'possessed' by some weird goop

[steep talon]

Joni was a heretic, not a higher being

[azure dirge]

It took root in Joni. Joni was overcome by it. Lifeblood requires itself to be consumed to spread, that’s why it was easier to control compared to radiance.

[craggy smelt]

Act 3
"You dumb piece of shi-"

[azure dirge]

Basically too much competition, plus easier to contain than radiance was.

[azure dirge]

Literally. This guy is like the second Joni but slightly worse probably.

[fallow spear]

wait, this is in the shape of a vessel

[steep talon]

Much worse

[azure dirge]

Pharloom doesn’t have anyone to stop this either or radiance to vye for power.

[steep talon]

Is it? I don't see it

[craggy smelt]

get Forge Daughter to start putting together some flame-throwers, they'll be fine

[fallow spear]

2 eyes at the top, theres some faded out horns too but you cant see it in this image
there seems to be a cloak and a body

[azure dirge]

That stuff will find a way to survive even if you burn it. Those cocoons once rooted will forever regrow I think.

Lifeblood can even sit in constant adjacency and presence to the abyss and be fine. That stuff is scary.

[supple needle]

Seems more like phantom than a vessel

[fallow spear]

wait youre right

[azure dirge]

It probably was a form of spreading it before lifeblood eventually rooted her. She doesn’t seem as aggressive as Zylotol about it, but she was a pariah and heretic for a reason.

[hidden crater]

Is this true

[fallow spear]

twelth architect: check this out, sawblades

[azure dirge]

Her spot also suggests she was isolated purposefully and trapped there.

[supple needle]

I wonder if the god of thunder from hk came from voltnest

[steep talon]

Prolly not

[azure dirge]

Tbh I think lifeblood is one of those unborn gods, or a god trying to rebirth itself. Considering the godholm eater egg I bet the lifeblood creature is going to be born or reborn at some point in a dlc or up and coming game

[steep talon]

Although I guess he could have left pharloom to gms, for his gay lover god of rain

[azure dirge]

That’s so real. Hornet got it from her dad. That’s hilarious.

Knight didn’t use no gadgets he just had sheer focus, void magic, and a really shitty nail that he turned into a really sharp nail.

Ykw Hornet had? A really good needle that just needed some polishing.

Knight had to pull himself up by his own bootstraps!

Gather that pale ore and get his nail forged into something truly magnificent

He didn’t get these hive forged needles or nail’s personally ordered by the pale king like Hornet and THK

Smh.

[whole hawk]

Here's a thought. At some point in the future, Lace's silk will be entirely comprised of Hornet's.

[azure dirge]

You know there are actually some interesting implications to the knight and his use of charms and Hornet with her natural abilities and crests. The knight was a blank slate and colored himself with the wishes of others that formed into charms. Hornet was already colored and used gadgets and tools alongside the legacy’s of others.

[azure dirge]

That’s very possible. Unless they find some other way to help Lace. Hornet might just consider turning her into an automaton or silkmold or smthn

Can’t wait for the Mecha Lace fight in Hallowknight 3; Skong 2

[craggy smelt]

when I imagine a hypothetical Act 4, Steel City DLC stuff...
I cannot help but picture Lace sacrificing herself for Hornet at some point
but she kind've already did that, so it also feels implausibly repetitive

[steep talon]

Or Lace dies because Hornet won't give her shit. Which is a little bit more preferable for me

[azure dirge]

Why do people hate so hard on Lace. She is not that bad.

[whole hawk]

And if Lace's silk body eventually gets replaced by Hornet's silk, she'll have Eva-infused Wyrm-infused godlike Weaver silk.

[azure dirge]

Lace suddenly starts talking like Eva a little too much…

[steep talon]

I have my reasons, but at the end of the day I just don't like her

Lol

[craggy smelt]

god damn it, do I want a hall of gods mode already...

[azure dirge]

I think Lace is rather likeable. She has clear motives, history, lore tidbits, redeems herself and even has some memorable dialogue and discourse with Hornet.

The moment between Hornet and Lace after the second Lace fight is very sweet, it’s a moment that encapsulates the themes of silksong, to not be trapped by the sins of the past and expectations of your predecessors.

[craggy smelt]

it's subjective, I just don't find Lace all that compelling as a character or villain
there's stuff that's interesting about her - her nature as a silkborn, her connection with Phantom, etc.
but if she was intended as the 'Hornet' of this game, she falls short of the original, I'm not nearly as interested in her as I got in Hornet

[azure dirge]

It also helps Hornet develop and grow. Allowing her to see herself in a unique way.

[whole hawk]

Lace is hilarious because she's incredibly anime yet played completely straight

[azure dirge]

I don’t think she’s supposed to entirely just be a Hornet, or an enemy. She’s a foil to Hornet, and is technically family to Hornet as Hornet is to the Knight.

[steep talon]

Not sure about clear motives, history - yep, lore tidbits - yep, redeems herself - she saves Hornet from dying, fair enough but then gets lost in the void and makes Hornet come save her ass. I'm not sure about discourse with hornet, she just kinda attacks her and taunts her. It's more like Hornet is confronting her in death, rather than them talking to each other

[craggy smelt]

I will say, I wasn't sure why Hornet seemed so invested in saving her vs. just taking her out
then I read the Lost Lace entry
and it conveyed that Hornet feels like she's sacrificed enough family to the Void
I thought that was cool

[azure dirge]

They talk after the second boss fight, you can also get two dialogue scenes with Lace I believe. One being in sinner’s road.

[azure dirge]

Hornet wants to forge a better future, and take a path her ancestors did not.

[azure dirge]

If she hadn’t gotten taken instead Hornet would have just died in the void with GMS.

[steep talon]

Yeah, sinners road and before blasted steps is the same dialogue. And that dialogue is just a repeat of Lace 1 fight

[whole hawk]

Lace is also a sort of parallel to Hornet's own past and how she was tied to her station for a dying kingdom. Not to mention Lace has mommy issues and Hornet has like 3 moms.

So saving her resolves some of her existing character arcs in Act 3.

[steep talon]

That's interesting, never though about her like that. I mean I still don't like her but that's cool

[valid compass]

"those who peer sideways" does this mean that mr shroom recognizes us as a 3 dimensional viewer watching their 2 dimensional world or am i too high for this

[azure dirge]

Yeah. Lace is interesting. She’s chained to a body that cannot grow or change, forced into a role against her will, and in a fragile state of life. She also had to watch her family wither away while she was still maintained to perfection.

[steep talon]

It's probably referencing the hit game Antichamber

[valid compass]

damn

is that a game without guantlet rooms

[steep talon]

Yes, it's an abstract puzzle game

[azure dirge]

There’s also a level of jealousy there which is interesting, Lace is jealous of what Hornet has and she inherently lacks. Lamenting it after she’s beaten the second time, and then Hornet recognizes her despite knowing the truth to her.

It’s kinda touching. Lace even throws her life away to pull Hornet out of GMS’s mutual destruction attempt over that connection they developed.

[whole hawk]

But yeah back to the showerthought. Hornet probably doesnt need to feed Lace silk for the rest of her life. I think you can come up with enougjh of a lore reason to explain that when Lace is comprised entirely of Hornet some wyrm eva weaver mumbojumbomakes her more selfsustaining

[steep talon]

Don't call it feeding, that's kinda gross

[quick thorn]

one could say, weaving

[azure dirge]

Spinning perhaps

[finite cave]

what are the lore implications for the everbloom

in hk elderbug says when dark thoughts creep into his mind he looks into it and thinks of us does it just make people happy

and oro's like " grrrr no go away " but he puts it in a little bottle in the end

[molten python]

That might just be because we gave him a flower, not because of the everbloom specifically.

[finite cave]

yeaahh it could just be the sentiment but i think it's a bit of an odd streak

[ancient dock]

Do you think the Abby’s is connected throughout all kingdoms?

Could be why the Knight escaped first time

[zinc pivot]

The everbloom’s ability of repelling the void could also be the ability to repel darkness in general

[craggy smelt]

(hee)
yes, the Abyss is under everything I think
and any number of vessels could have gotten out to other lands with it

[ancient dock]

Crazy to think it how he would have journeyed from pharloom to hollownest

[craggy smelt]

it's fun to think about TK maybe having all these grand adventures before being drawn back to Hallownest

[main osprey]

What sort of bug is phantom?

[zinc pivot]

Hungry Knight is canon

[craggy smelt]

whatever Lace is, ig
they're both silkborn

[zinc pivot]

Silk lifeform like Lace

[finite cave]

i remember once i was talkign with my friend about the vessels and they mentioned their theory the cloaks were meant to be wings

[craggy smelt]

pretty sure that's true, yeah

[finite cave]

i like them being blankies that pk put down there more

[main osprey]

Ooh nice

[finite cave]

his kids need to sleep

[craggy smelt]

the best canons are all head ones

[zinc pivot]

Millions of blankies?
For children he wasn’t even sure could survive the void?

Too much credit for our late King as good as it sounds

[finite cave]

yes

he put their little blankies down there 🗣🔥🔥🔥

[main osprey]

So for silkborn like lace and phantom, masks arent necessary?

[craggy smelt]

phantom has a mask
it's kind've crappy though

[hidden crater]

Our late king is better then that silk driven monarch

[main osprey]

She can take it off though

Like it seems more of a fashion/phantom of the opera reference

[hidden crater]

You can see their mask right before starting the fight

[craggy smelt]

if bugs have a face of their own, I don't think they need a mask for anything
Mask Maker says he makes masks because not everyone has their own face

[zinc pivot]

It is theorized that the mask is keeping her sane/from unravelling
Because she’s literally falling apart, and mask has magical power

[main osprey]

So I don't get that

[craggy smelt]

that's fine, nobody does

[main osprey]

Does face mean actual face or like an individual personality?

[hidden crater]

Gotta wait for mossbag to do his magic

[craggy smelt]

mask maker suggests these go hand-in-hand

[zinc pivot]

It’s both really
See mask maker as an example, removing his mask and he becomes wise instead of mask maniac

[main osprey]

Yeah but he does have a face

[craggy smelt]

ccmaci also has his moments
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/exV-RUnkTHE

[main osprey]

I guess also some bugs are so powerful as to not need masks?

[azure dirge]

There may be some significance to being born with a mask too like Knight and Hornet, but both can also collect more masks for themselves that strengthen them.

[main osprey]

Iike for example the big moth

[azure dirge]

The Knight shedding his mask also has some importance, his mask is shed when he becomes shadelord and otherwise in DNM. Though he does retain some shape to his face.

[valid kelp]

its a biological mask too

[main osprey]

Ooh ok so the far fields black bugs with the plants on their heads

[azure dirge]

Radiance? Radiance is a higher being and technically does have a face. Snail shamans also have faces, I think their shells replace masks.

[main osprey]

Are they considered faceless, but the skull tyrant isn't because it's mask is the skull of the creature?

[valid kelp]

i dont know if wearing a skull counts as a mask

[azure dirge]

Those bugs are more mindless.

[craggy smelt]

they have a face, you can see their eyes

[azure dirge]

The mask maker seems to make masks very particularly. They actually seem somehow connected to the pale with pale lacquer being used.

There’s also the fact you can find mask shards for Knight and Hornet too.

Styx wears masks.

[main osprey]

So literally faceless can mean faceless

Not metaphorically

It's a bit of a weird question but how to masks find their way to bugs?

[azure dirge]

We don’t really get what faceless is as defined entirely, but it does seem to be semi literal and supernatural to a degree. Having a mask or face gives some level of mind and identity to bugs.

[azure dirge]

That is something none of us know.

[craggy smelt]

I would love to believe that Mask Maker is literally making and distributing all of the masks we see everywhere
the logistics of that probably don't work out, though
maybe he has little helpers

[main osprey]

Maybe bugs feel compelled to make the journey to him

[azure dirge]

The couriers did use to travel to him to deliver lacquer

[craggy smelt]

with little masks of their own, making them all such good little helpers...

[azure dirge]

They may have taken masks to others for him. Styx may also be related to the mask maker

Considering he has so many himself. Maybe Nosk are also somehow related.

[main osprey]

So it's like Tropic Thunder, Styx is a dude playing a dude , disguised as another dude

[azure dirge]

My theory is that Styx is already dead and in base game and true soul you are interacting with a Nosk.

Because Styx gets replaced by Skynx in true soul.

[sudden pivot]

wdym by "A Nosk" ?

[azure dirge]

But the masks are there in both runs.

[main osprey]

Does steel soul have actual lore implications

[sudden pivot]

is Nosk not a singular entity?

[azure dirge]

Nosks are a species. They are shapeshifters that done masks and mimic others.

[ancient dock]

Nosk from the first game

[main osprey]

I thought this was a gameplay concession as obviously you can't use silkeaters

[sudden pivot]

where is there stated to be more than one?

[azure dirge]

Skynx is very likely a nosk.

[ancient dock]

Godhome

[main osprey]

But we don't know she doesn't have eyes right?

Oh wait so phantom's dress is silk not a dress

[sudden pivot]

where??? aren't Nosk and Winged Nosk the same creature? i.e. Hornet 1 and Hornet 2?

or like False Knight and Failed Champion or smth

[ancient dock]

Nah these are dream variants

[sudden pivot]

I knew that'd be the counter argument which is why I started with Hornet lols

[azure dirge]

Nosk’s hunter journal mentions beasts plural.

[ancient dock]

Nosk and Hornet Nosk are two different entities

[azure dirge]

Meaning there is more than just Nosk.

[sudden pivot]

ah I see fair, I dont agree with that extrapolation but I appreciate being able to see where the perspective comes from

[sudden pivot]

no real evidence of that so far as I am aware, could be wrong

[azure dirge]

Also Nosk is a bug. Why wouldn’t there be more of them?

[pine garden]

does it say that the Gay Princes were born apart ingame? I forgot

[sudden pivot]

?? Bardoon is also a bug but there's only one of him, I dont get this argument

[ancient dock]

Considering you fight two at time it probably true their is more than one

[sudden pivot]

huh? wdym? both Nosk fights are 1v1s?

[azure dirge]

Bardoon is also a species? The bugs in games are all species.

[main osprey]

I wonder what Bardoon will turn into

[azure dirge]

Unless it’s a pale being or a nearly extinct creature there are likely more of any bug you encounter.

[pine garden]

yeah

the brooding molusks or whatever its name was lore was that it was the last one of its kind

[sudden pivot]

just because something is a bug doesn't mean there's more than one, Grimm is a bug who has special circumstances around his birth resulting in him being unique, could well be the same for Nosk, especially since it seems related to Radiance what with it's core being infection and it being able to view people's minds to know who their loved ones are

[ancient dock]

I meant in the pantheon

[azure dirge]

Grimm is related to a a higher being my guy.

[sudden pivot]

you also fight Hornet twice but there's only one Hornet

[sudden pivot]

cool, just ignore the part of the argument where I say Nosk could be too -_-

[azure dirge]

Terrible example. Hornet is also a demigod born between a weaver and a higher being. Terrible example.

Nosk was likely infected. Radiance is infecting things through HK. There’s nothing to suggest nosk is related to higher beings exactly.

[sudden pivot]

I dont see how thats relevant to the argument of there being multiple in the Pantheon meaning there's multiple in the world

[azure dirge]

It is interesting that it can peer into the minds of others though. Even the Pale King is a species though. There were other Wyrms.

[ancient dock]

Grimm isn’t a higher being the nightmare heart is

[sudden pivot]

there's no less suggestion than for the idea there's multiple Nosk's, both are head canons

[sudden pivot]

Grimm considers himself to be the Nightmare Heart, he calls it the "Heart of Grimm"

[pine garden]

yeah but he's clearly special in how connected he is to the heart

[azure dirge]

Grimm is related to the nightmare heart, we see the process that he was born from.

[ancient dock]

He the equivalent of a vessel

[wet marsh]

the silksong true ending basically confirms embrace the void as the canon hk ending right?

[sudden pivot]

debateable but either EtV or DnM basically

[azure dirge]

Silksong suggests that Godholm was completed alongside all the steps for DNM.

[sudden pivot]

I also like to imagine HK ending being canon to WQ

[wet marsh]

ooh

[pine garden]

the SS True ending is almost definitely happening after Dream No More or Embrace the Void endings. More likely to be EtV since we see the Shade Lord briefly and the lack of the Hollow Knight shade during the cutscene, but it wouldn't be too weird if Dream No More was also canonical

[azure dirge]

The steps for DNM are at least canon, herra for instance is dead.

[wet marsh]

yeah the shade lord is what made me think it's etv

[robust wagon]

Well yeah voidheart is required to do p5

[azure dirge]

Though Godholm does have to be canon since Shadelord can only exist through being focused by the focus crest on the godtuner.

[pine garden]

if DNM was the canonical ending then we probably would've seen the HK's massive shade along the other siblings, where as in EtV ending the HK survives without being turned into a shade

[azure dirge]

There are a lot of parts you can skip to get it I believe.

[severe sparrow]

it might be a mix of both, like maybe the knight went to the black egg then to godhome. so basically just EtV without the hollow knight walking out of the egg maybe?

[sudden pivot]

I interpet the flickering between all the shades as seen in DnM and the Shade Lord as seen in EtV to mean either lead to effectively the same place for the purposes of Pharloom's fate

[azure dirge]

EtV HK becomes shadelord.

Alongside all the other vessels. They unite into shadelord and become one. Focused.

[wet marsh]

yes

[pine garden]

I dont think HK does, HK is seen alive leaving the Black Egg after the Shadelord is formed

[azure dirge]

Sorry I mean knight does

[sudden pivot]

had someone trying to argue that Knight having to attack the void tendrils at the end of SotV was a retconn of how Void Heart worked pissed me off so bad

[azure dirge]

The abbreviations confuse me sometimes. Some people use THK others HK lol.

[pine garden]

https://tenor.com/view/nerd-nerd-fast-fast-fast-nerd-nerd-glasses-gif-25556246

[sudden pivot]

I use HK for the ending cause I use THK for the character

[pine garden]

how it feels arguing with stubborn idiotic pedants on this channel sometimes

[azure dirge]

Yeah void heart doesn’t necessarily give him total control of the void, it can still act up. Him attacking was actually straight up the shadelord attack pattern though.

[wet marsh]

yeah but i think they are still the same being at that point

[ancient dock]

I’m pretty sure ETV still has the knight do everything up till the black egg where it goes to Godhome instead

[wet marsh]

they become as one but yes the shade lord can still act up sometimes

[sudden pivot]

also the achievement explicitly says "Unite the Abyss" not "Unite the Void" it's only it's siblings shades I imagine that it has full direct autonomy over, and is just kind of vaguely in charge of the rest of the void

[azure dirge]

Or can command the void to some extent. It’s interesting. In DNM knight becomes the lord of shades vs EtV he becomes the shade lord.

[wet marsh]

yeah the knight more or less becomes the "king" of the void i'd say

[azure dirge]

We do see the void calm completely down and relinquish its hold on the silk after Shadelord intervened and saved Hornet and lace.

[sudden pivot]

iirc "Shade Lord" isnt ever actually used in game so I dont know if there's a tangible difference between being Lord of Shades and being whatever the creature the Godseekers call "God of Gods" is

[azure dirge]

I get the feeling the knight is responsible for it calming down so quickly.

[sudden pivot]

other than focus obviously according to the RHoG statue

[wet marsh]

well ofc

the knight's the ruler of the void at that point

[azure dirge]

I think shadelord is used somewhere. I mean the godtuners just seem to be looking for the strongest being to focus their obsession on, and the knight defeating all these perfected manifestations shaped their perception of him and gained their attention to the point he became not just void given form but void given focus.

[sudden pivot]

oh Shade Lord comes from the game files, interesting

[azure dirge]

It makes sense, because he is all of the shades together.

[pine garden]

my assumption is that the Knight was just chilling in Hallownest, but when Hornet dove into the abyss he kinda "felt" it and then booked it to her location, and got just in time to save her, and in a hurry it just attacked the void tendrils since that was the fastest way to get them to back off

[azure dirge]

I think the knight was actually looking for Hornet already since she was kidnapped, and that’s why he appeared when he did.

[sudden pivot]

I think Knight is probably the reason all the Siblings go away at the end of DnM and its implied the Void stops rising up the Ancient Basin like we see in game, so I imagine it was probably just spending it's time holding back the Hallownest Abyss

[pine garden]

maybe? We'll never know for certain. My assumption is that the Knight is chilling 24/7 in the abyss void ocean and thus has no interactions with Hornet and wouldn't have known that she was kidnapped

[azure dirge]

It’s kinda ironic that knight can just kill himself with the everbloom

[azure dirge]

He may have been able to sense it to some degree since they are related.

[pine garden]

he is related to the white lady who can somewhat sense the vessels and maybe Hornet?

[azure dirge]

And he does probably still have some dream abilities.

[sudden pivot]

based on the cutscene entering Lost Lace's arena I think it probably just teleported them back into the void since it seems to just drive the void away rather than eliminate it

though its interesting the Knight can hold it safely at all, Pale genes coming in clutch yet again I suppose

[wet marsh]

nah i think it can eliminate it if it's in a limited capacity

[zinc pivot]

They abandoned their shell to become shade lord so they shouldn’t have that ability no more

[azure dirge]

Well, they are literally inside the void so it can’t really destroy it more than just repel it I think. Also the everbloom does destroy the void when it tries to eat your silk.

[wet marsh]

hornet and lace were literally inside the void

[azure dirge]

When you get everbloom you are immune to the void silk debuff.

[pine garden]

Hornet goes to sleep every night and she just sees Knight's shade like a paralysis demon because he keeps invading her dreams to see her but he doesn't talk so he just does nothing

[azure dirge]

LOL

[zinc pivot]

Having a pale shell rather than being naked void helps

[ancient dock]

Knight probably sense Hornet was in danger I don’t think the Void have a hive mind

[sudden pivot]

either he's still able to hold the dream nail as a shade somehow OR Hornet is a dumbass for not snatching that shit

[azure dirge]

My guess is it’s because he has a shell, and is a vessel, at the time. Not purely void.

[sudden pivot]

they're* sorry my bad!!!!!!

[azure dirge]

I think the dream nail isn’t really physical. Especially after collecting all that essence.

[sudden pivot]

I suppose that makes sense, you are first given it in the dream realm, I could swear some characters comment on it's physical appearance but im probably making that up

[azure dirge]

The shadelord also did literally crawl out of the dreamworld which is horrifying to consider.

[zinc pivot]

Ngl i think dream nail would be a cooler weapon
You literally bypass physical defense and cut straight through reality

[azure dirge]

It may have some physical manifestation but that doesn’t mean holding it is purely physical. We see some effect when using it for instance.

[zinc pivot]

Sounds like a certain JJK weapon that cut soul…

[sudden pivot]

speaking of Shade Lord and Radiance, does the "Ancient Enemy" line not confirm Radiance as like far and away the strongest Higher Being? not including prime PK and WL since we know absolutely nothing about their powerlevels

[azure dirge]

I think it’s more horrifying to consider the shadelord may be able to just literally physically crawl into some one’s dreams and out of them. They might be able to manifest within a dream and then crawl out too.

[pine garden]

its not unreasonable given how much physical influence Radiance had

[wet marsh]

yeah

[sudden pivot]

makes sense given Void is themeatically implied to be to regret what Essence is to memory

[azure dirge]

Radiance is probably one of the strongest beings ever yeah. It literally devours minds and lives in thought. The only way to kill it was to have shadelord or Lord of Shades kill it directly and remove it from every mind at once.

[azure dirge]

That’s what I’ve been saying!

[robust wagon]

Wdym? You need both halves of the kingsoul and you have to do the birthplace cutscene, what else would be lore significant that you can skip?

[sudden pivot]

I perosnally believe it was probably a universal being in its control of Dream Magic prior to being sealed (and it being sealed is why infection took physical time and space to grow)

[azure dirge]

I think the only thing comparable might be lifeblood, but lifeblood is limited by having to be physically imbibed. Despite that it is quite unkillable once it takes root.

[sudden pivot]

yeah Eva says Lifeblood Being wants to recreate everything in the physical world to its image

[azure dirge]

Shrug. I’m not a lore expert, some people were explaining what could be skipped earlier.

[sudden pivot]

since its only present in Godhome I imagine it doesnt have a strong dream world presence, it had to be atunned to in order to appear at all

[solid badge]

Oh. Right. We still know pretty much nothing about what drives Lifeblood. Like does it just exist or does it have a divine aspect.

[azure dirge]

Yeah. Or it has yet to be. My guess is the god of lifeblood has yet to be born or is being reborn through the lifeblood molding the world.

[sudden pivot]

we can see what is very assumably the God of Lifeblood in the Lifeblood Godhome room

there's really nothing else it could be

[solid badge]

There was big boi yes, but it looked... chill. Unlike Lifeblood itself.

[sudden pivot]

oooo thats a really interesting take

[pine garden]

god of lifeblood is clearly a bum because he wasn't invited to the Godhome but the Mosscharger was smh

[sudden pivot]

am I tripping or isn't it also visible in the background of the AByss Lifeblood room? so yeah the fact it doesnt attack you makes it seem kinda chill, then again it wants to assimilate not destroy

[azure dirge]

Well I think radiance just feeds on thought in general and was essentially causing things to go primal. It’s like a god of evolution and primal nature, compared to the pale king who is a god of thought and progress.

[solid badge]

Lifeblood clearly is parasitic. New altered and quite resilient life.

[azure dirge]

It could also simply not be fully formed there. Or a cocoon even.

[pine garden]

trying to kill the assisstant was such a tedious drag, please no more lifeblood DLC's if these are the enemies we'll have to fight

[azure dirge]

Lifeblood can even infect those of higher beings descent. Even if they are resistant.

[zinc pivot]

Vessels are immune interestingly

[azure dirge]

I don’t think vessels are even safe. Shadelord might be.

[pine garden]

The Knight is build different different, you could take as much lifeblood as you wanted in HK

[sudden pivot]

Lifeblood infection seems to be implied to be the same strength as Radiance infection just easier to manage since it spreads physically, I believe this is implied by Lifeblood and Infection seedlings being identical

[solid badge]

Shrug, wailing at Zango with Needle4 was very easy. He literally attacked everything but me. Dived me once for one hit.

[zinc pivot]

Maybe vessel with void in it can supress lifeblood

[azure dirge]

Yeah. But at the same time it might be even harder to fully kill. It even sits near the abyss and void without issue in HK.

[sudden pivot]

proabably the Void that prevents us from being overrun, though even just Hornet's Pale genetics are enough to keep what happened to Zango from happing to her

[azure dirge]

The blessing was too much though, and it prevents knights natural healing.

There is a limit even for vessel knight.

[zinc pivot]

It doesn’t continue spreading though, so I assume its regen speed is the same as the void can consume it

[azure dirge]

Hornet says that even her shell is only resistant and she’s not completely safe.

[pine garden]

I was about to say that the vessels are probably immune to lifeblood infection due to their biology, with them mostly being void/shade but then again the Lost Kin was literally a vessel that got infected by Radiance and likewise with the Hollow Knight

[sudden pivot]

well tbf Radiance is able to infect Shadow Creepers in the Abyss, I see your point though

[azure dirge]

I think this aspect is more gamey. I think if you can remove all your masks and replace them with the lifeblood ones you are susceptible because it has changed you.

[zinc pivot]

Lost Kin literally has no void left though

[sudden pivot]

I think the Radiance could infect LK because its not physical its mental, we can see mentality was the source of its infection even despite the physical seedlings because it's still infected within its Dream world

[azure dirge]

True

[pine garden]

I forgot the lost kin void is it stated that?

[zinc pivot]

From the first appearance as Broken Vessel, you can see theres nothing inside them
(Nothing doesn’t mean void as synonymous as they are lol)

[pine garden]

oh yeah it doesn't have its shade, do we ever see if it has void black limbs or anything?

[azure dirge]

Shades are probably immune. I think vessels are susceptible because they do have a shell, so the void can be replaced or filled by radiance or lifeblood.

[sudden pivot]

it does have void black limbs yes, and also "..." Dreamnail dialouge meaning it still has void within it

[zinc pivot]

Hornet has black limbs guys

[sudden pivot]

because she's a Weaver

and LK has black limbs because they're a Vessel

[zinc pivot]

Ok, what about zote then

[azure dirge]

You ever consider how vessels usually have mandibles as horns, they wear their heads incorrectly.

[pine garden]

we definitely see its body

[sudden pivot]

seemingly is in fact a Vessel

[azure dirge]

Well the vessels body’s aren’t necessarily composed of void. They contain void usually.

[pine garden]

TC definitely didnt think that far with the Broken Vessel

[solid badge]

Well yea... oddly, those are their princely mandibles. Their father's crown is its former mouth and teeth.

[zinc pivot]

Man we are in 2025 and the black body = void theory still lives

[sudden pivot]

their shells are that of a Pale Being but their insides where their organs would be was hollowed out in the egg by the Void and replaced with a shade

[sudden pivot]

quite literally not what anyone here is arguing but go off

[azure dirge]

It’s just an interesting trait, but it also demonstrates how they are not natural to an extent.

[azure dirge]

Yeah. It also seems like this process was done through regrets, using regrets to attract the void. They essentially killed every vessel before it could be born to turn it into what they are.

[zinc pivot]

Girlie someone just said broken vessel still has leftover void because their body is black

[solid badge]

Observing after-egg PK, you realise that he is an upright worm wyrm.

[sudden pivot]

its a piece of evidence that corroborates other evidence, namely the Dreamnail dialogue and the fact that it has no dialogue after freeing of of the infection before collecting it's essence

[solid badge]

And his face is abdomen.

[sudden pivot]

oooooo very good point

[ancient dock]

Where does the mothwing cloak come from?

[zinc pivot]

If dream nail dialogue is indication
Why don’t siblings have any?
Why does the Collector have many dialogues?

Both evidence are crap

[sudden pivot]

a creature called a Mothwing I dont think we ever seen, it has strands of it's fur sewed within

[azure dirge]

I think Lost Kin no longer holds any void, it is first stated as a “Broken Vessel”

[sudden pivot]

Collector has an idea instilled, the Siblings do not, neither does LK, very simple

[azure dirge]

Being broken, how could it hold the void within itself?

[zinc pivot]

The whole point of vessels is
They ALL have idea instilled
No vessel is pure like PK wanted

[hushed viper]

chatteth how do i get to act 3 now i already beaten ||up my grandma and got infested with a baby but now what||

[whole holly]

collector imprinted from bug we get lover's key from

[zinc pivot]

If not, they wouldn’t take shape as siblings, but as void tendrils that smacked our ass

[sudden pivot]

mmmm, debatable, but I see the argument, since Knight was able to regain its idea simply by knowing its birth, which obviously any other Vessel would too

[sudden pivot]

WRONG chat my friend lots of spoilers here, that being said gotta do as many wishes as you can

[hushed viper]

OH SHIT RIGHT YEA MB WRONG CHAT

[sudden pivot]

hope you didnt get any spoils, have fun!!! 💖

[zinc pivot]

Cure yourself of unwanted pregnancy first
Then get a bellhome, get the fleas to fleatopia, donate to all town 2 times, help Shakra visit her master, help Sherma
And a total of 17 different wishes done not counting white wishes

[azure dirge]

I think beating lost kin in the dream and gathering their essence also proves they weren’t voided any longer. The only way to bring them back to Knight is by absorbing their essence.

[sudden pivot]

I dont get this argument, THK has a dream world but it still has a shade?

[solid badge]

Idea instilled is emotional attachment though? As in failing their strict intended purpose, to be indifferent to Rad's influence and also condemn her to a prison of her enemy. How would all have idea instilled?

[sudden pivot]

the trauma of their birth, relearning that was enough to instill Ghost with an idea so easy enough assumption to make

[azure dirge]

THK doesn’t have a dream world, radiance does. THK shows that despite being cracked and infected it is still in there fighting, the void inside it is still there it has yet to be consumed. Lost Kin was fully consumed, to the point that it had a dream manifestation and not a void manifestation.

[sudden pivot]

we can see from the differences in the background of Rad and Absrad's arena that Rad takes place in the Hollow Knights mind, the clouds everywhere are due to her but the vessel-head looking structures imply the foundation is that of the Hollow Knight's mind

[solid badge]

Idea instilled can also be seen as a desire. To live up to their father, for example. Thus corruptible.

[azure dirge]

Thats true, but it could be because of radiance that is even possible for THK. Lost Kin just seems far more overtaken. The only time it shows much difference is in the dream where it can bow to you.

[azure dirge]

Most were also instilled with the desires of the void climb. Those words seem to echo in most vessels as an instinct to seal the radiance

[sudden pivot]

it could be but we have to reason to believe it is, the Knight is able to access their own Dream World memory despite not being infected at all

[azure dirge]

The knight mostly accesses other places, or the dreams held within places. Though I guess that is true.

[sudden pivot]

in that case though you are explicitly hitting your own reflection, so while the specfic memory is due to where you used the Dreamnail the fact remains that Ghost has a Dreamworld for that memory to play out in at all

[azure dirge]

In theory the knight’s thoughts and dreams should be practically imperceptible though, void beings thoughts and dreams are pretty much imperceptible at least to pale beings.

[azure dirge]

Though they are still there. They would have to be for radiance to even be able to be put into them huh.

[sudden pivot]

makes sense, though Radiance and the Dreamnail should be more powerful in that regard than them

[azure dirge]

The knight is also void linked himself, so he may be able to get into dreams. The void can slip into dreams after all from what we have seen, and even slip out from it.

Shadelord unlike radiance or absolute radiance did literally crawl out from the dream realm.

[sudden pivot]

doesn't seem to be something Knight can do willingly in it's base form though, it simply returns to the Abyss after killing Radiance in the Dreamworld rather than entering where it exited, and also Seer and probably more substantially the Dreamers think throwing you into the Dream World is an effective way to get rid of you

[azure dirge]

Yk I wonder if that’s the origin of void to begin with. The ancient civilization wished and yearned for an end, nothingness, and it eventually seeped out from their dreams.

[azure dirge]

Yeah. Doesn’t work though.

[sudden pivot]

maybe? but considering they had imprints of the void and in Pharloom worshipped it by name, it seemed to predate their civilsation

[azure dirge]

True. Though, it could have been created by their civilization still. Hard to really say anything concrete. They were a massive civilization since they seem to appear in so many places.

[sudden pivot]

right, cause you are saved by Seer, but it would have worked had she not given Ghost the Dreamnail to save themselves

[azure dirge]

True.

[sudden pivot]

I could swear there's a statement saying Void predates all things

[azure dirge]

Wonder what would have happened if they hadn’t. Seer is pretty interesting.

[azure dirge]

Yeah, I mean more like, manifested. Not created.

Because how did that much void get there? Everywhere? It doesn’t seem like it was always that high, or that prevalent. They did create stuff down there after all.

[sudden pivot]

ahhhhh gotcha makes sense, in the way Hunter seems to imply all death and regret contributes to the void?

[azure dirge]

Though void is attracted to soul so it may simply rise and cover older ruins.

[zinc pivot]

Based on what Lemm said, the ancient civilization worshipped darkness itself

[azure dirge]

Yeah. It may be that the ancient civilizations worship and obsession lead to it quite literally seeping out from them and the dream world and thus filling the world to create the abyss.

We do see quite a few beings who have died from void literally have it gushing out from them in a strange way.

[sudden pivot]

would also explain why the void stains the Pale King's throne room, perhaps the strength of his own regrets manifested to end him

[terse warren]

The black streaks are just TC's way of drawing tears though

[zinc pivot]

Void shouldn’t be mistaken for weathering
Else Last Judge would have void in it

[azure dirge]

That would make sense, he was working so closely with the void too, so his regrets at the fall of his kingdom may have been enough for it to manifest and consume him.

[sudden pivot]

no it's tied to void, see the Tower of Love owner and the Lighthouse operator's corpses

[azure dirge]

Yeah

[terse warren]

No eyes also has it was she magically tied to void

"X character has it" doesn't disprove that it's just tears

[azure dirge]

I think it’s just blood for no eyes. Though no eyes was like, literally insane from seeing something beyond what they should weren’t they.

[thick pivot]

Where did the first merchant we encounter ends up after we start act 3?

[sudden pivot]

she is directly implied to have removed her and her children's ability to see to avoid infection I shouldn't have to explain the thematic link to void lmao

[quick thorn]

probably no significance but this fossil looks familiar

[azure dirge]

It does.

[sudden pivot]

oh yeah it does huh, kinda looks like the big version of the enemies that roll around on platforms

[azure dirge]

Weathering?

[manic pewter]

hey uh
theres only 4 endings right?

[zinc pivot]

Bell beast?
(Hell nah)

[quick thorn]

nope

[azure dirge]

Think so. I saw somebody post a weird ending once though.

[zinc pivot]

Erosion from rain and what not

[manic pewter]

Yeahhh ive been doing stuff i shouldnt and found something

[azure dirge]

Ah yeah.

[terse warren]

It's not about a thematic connection though. You said the Void is pouring out the eyes which it isn't in No Eyes case. Also we're not sure why her eyes are gone, it's never said it's because of infection

[azure dirge]

What did you find?

[terse warren]

It's a fossil. Probably just an ancient version of this enemy

[quick thorn]

split mask and 4 eyes is reminiscent of the pharlid diver? common ancestor?

[zinc pivot]

The cut ending where hornet stand like a tool instead of binding GMS?
And get absorbed

[azure dirge]

Normal ending, cursed ending, act 3 snare, void sister ending.

[zinc pivot]

Yeah that one, its cut from the game

[quick thorn]

yeah lets just lose 2 eyes, merge the mask, and also lose the teeth... doesn't seem that plausible

[azure dirge]

Primal aspid looked quite different

[lone nimbus]

Gm silk is le holy I think

[azure dirge]

Think so yeah.

[sudden pivot]

1. the void is physically tied to its thematics the same way essence is, where there's memory there's essence, where there's regret there's void

2. Her dialogue is all about her removing her children's eyes and them killing her, I'm also like 99% sure they confirmed that's what it was about in the Reddit ama though I could be misremembering that

I'm gonna go for now I don't really feel like having this argument lol, see y'all later thanks for the fun talks

[quick thorn]

true ig, but the split mask thing is rather unique

[terse warren]

The only time void and regrets are linked is at Jiji's

[azure dirge]

It’s not impossible of a change. It makes me think of a primal version of those guys.

[terse warren]

It's a fictional bug game it doesn't have to be plausible evolution

[azure dirge]

Hunter also links them.

[sudden pivot]

and Hunter's notes, and there's nothing counting against the idea, ignoring the clear thematic parallel could only be done in the interest of reaching a preconceived notion

also if you just consider every place in the game void appears through the lense of it representing regret it makes a LOT of sense

[azure dirge]

GM silk has soul in it and she is a higher being, she seems to have some connection to songs and hymns as well. Maybe they generate soul for her? Most higher beings seem to have something they feed off of to some extent. GMS also seems not as powerful as other higher beings.

[quick thorn]

yeah shades are void and explicitly regret related

[azure dirge]

And knight isn’t the only one with a shade, his siblings have them and they don’t die when you attack them, only fall down into the masks.

[quick thorn]

well, the shades we see in HK are, at least

[sudden pivot]

I don't think the music has anything to do with her particular I just think the spell the Weavers crafted to put her to sleep runs on music

[heavy gyro]

Yeah and void is darkness, while dreams (essence) is light, and regret is kinda the opposite of dreams

[sudden pivot]

Hunter seems to imply everything leaves a shade of some for it's just that theirs aren't powerful enough to manifest physically because they aren't literally made of void

[azure dirge]

Well pharloom seems pretty music oriented, the weavers did too. Needolyn also has special properties explicitly.

[sudden pivot]

yeah all of that is explainable through the fact that the Weavers had to build their entire caste system on music to keep GMS asleep

[azure dirge]

Yeah. It’s like focus and soul. Not everything can utilize soul.

[sudden pivot]

exactly, even though all animate beings have it

[azure dirge]

That’s possible, but the atlas predate citadel.

[quick thorn]

as for the shade and void connection, hornet is explicitly not void, but has a "shade" within the respawn cocoons (althought canonicity of dying is uhh... up in the air)

[azure dirge]

The silk also literally has magical properties when played to the point you can get a partial dream nail effect, like with Viridia and the other heart bosses.

[sudden pivot]

it is? where is that confirmed? I thought Atla was built once they realized they weren't going to be able to keep her asleep forever in order to research ways of stopping her? hence Eva and the Snare Setter?

[sudden pivot]

well yes Silk magic = Soul magic so anything one can do with manipulation of soul you can do the same with silk it's just a lot easier

[azure dirge]

The atlas are older weaver places, the citadel was made later as a trap it seems, the cradle is also old weaver make. They are all of the same design, the citadel was also semi made by pilgrims it seems. There’s quite a few bits of evidence around the place. I think the atlas were around when they were preparing for their rebellion. There’s a reason the citadel doesn’t use any of the same tech they do.

[quick thorn]

well, not entirely. we know hornet can harness soul with her silk, but that doesn't necessarily apply to the other bugs of pharloom

It's kinda like the soul sanctum people. They were trying to focus soul, something that comes naturally to The Knight

[azure dirge]

But dream nail worked more so off of essence not soul.

[sudden pivot]

but a degree of Dream magic is clearly possible through Soul magic, see the Snail Shamans and White Lady

[azure dirge]

They did manage some things, and could do some things it appears. Like they could use the silk in their shells to extend their lives, but it did come at a cost. Their descendants being tied to the threads and influenced by gms for instance. And those with weak souls became haunted.

[sudden pivot]

all Weaver Silk is imbued with Soul that's why it's magical

[azure dirge]

True, still those are quite specific instances, GMS silk being able to do such a thing implies that it has some properties and resonance with music.

[lone nimbus]

👍, but Is she good at chess? She should be a chess grandmaster because of the "GM" she has, right?

[azure dirge]

The game is also named Silksong, and the fact music could be used to put GMS to sleep implies that she is somehow tied to it to the point it is able to do that.

[azure dirge]

Are you good at chess? Maybe you should challenge her to chess next time instead of barbarically stabbing her with your needle.

[azure dirge]

Kinda like how radiance was trapped within the mind and dream of THK, it would make sense of GMS was directly tied to song to the point it could be used to restrict her.

[lone nimbus]

the fate of pharloom lies on a chess game and I say "Magnus Carlson, Go! " As he comes out of the pokeball

[azure dirge]

Impressive. Unfortunately I spoke with GMS and she didn’t care and stabbed him to death…

[sudden pivot]

I guess that's fair enough, Needolin is explicitly the same ability as what Widow was using to guide GMS's threads

[lone nimbus]

Hikaru solo trust frfr

[azure dirge]

The bells may somehow restrict or disrupt it. Seems the vibrations guide and control things too with the silk.

[azure dirge]

I believe in him 🙏

Bells ringing may disrupt GMS control of the silk, stopping her from controlling things through them like she was. A part of the trap, and why so many are all webbed up.

[lone nimbus]

Hikaru knows this and plays insert good opening move

[sudden pivot]

maybe, it's interesting that you can override her control of pilgrims to make them sing

[azure dirge]

Even the bigger enemies, and with the needolyn upgrade charm it can affect stronger enemies.

It also interesting how it does quite literally compel people to sing. There’s also the little guys with bells in citadel, there are rooms where they sing and make music and the others will sing as result.

[sudden pivot]

this is kind of random but I ran out of things to add to that, I think the lore of the Deepnest Weavers is so fucking funny

[azure dirge]

It is rather funny. Pharloom weavers seem so refined then there’s deepnest

[sudden pivot]

imagine helping imprision your god, deciding you dont want to fuck with that anymore, then running to Deepnest and deciding to set up a new society where your old god's web will never touch you, only to then get turned into zombies by an even more fucked up and powerful god, and the last few who were able to escape before it was too late probably got immediately murdered by Lace on arrival back in Pharloon

[pine narwhal]

Wtf why did they cut this
Would have been such a good ragebaiting ending if you lost against gms on a steel soul run😭

[sudden pivot]

probably because Weaver Queen is already a bad ending so having a worse ending is kind of unnecessary

[azure dirge]

It’s even crazier to consider the reason Herra bargained to have a child with pale king was to kill GMS most likely.

[grand bison]

so the ancient civilization was obsessed with removing their desires by using the void or something right? cause thats what i think from reading the abyss tablets

[azure dirge]

They were sorta obsessed with nothingness itself rather. Just becoming complete absence.

[whole holly]

how did Shamans, Weavers and Ancient Civillisation use Void?

[sudden pivot]

probably to avoid falling to the Radiance given she states the Void has been her enemy since ancient times

[sudden pivot]

Weavers didn't, Snail Shamans we know almost nothing about, and the Ancient Civllisation we know even less about

[azure dirge]

That does make some sense. But then their obsession became too intense perhaps.

[whole holly]

Weavenest Absalom only attempted to but didn't succeed in anything right?

[pine narwhal]

I mean yeah fair

[azure dirge]

They didn’t really get far with it or do much. There’s a reason the abyss became sealed off again. There’s also not much excavation down there or any ancient civilization relics in pharloom outside the abyss.

[vague anvil]

i saw a video about silksong lore and I wasn't really that satisfied

i crave deep lore

[sudden pivot]

oh whoa thats a really cool interpretation I hadn't even thought of that, I had took the "...for protection..." to mean protection from Hallownest from the Radiance, but thats an interesting thought that the idea behind conceiving Hornet was to take back Pharloom, though based on the Red Memory flashback if that is the case I imagine thats probably more so what Herrah told her Weaver subjects rather than what she actually hoped for Hornet's life

[grand bison]

but why would the ancient civilization in pharloom care about that when radiance’s reach doesnt seem to extend far out of hallownest

[azure dirge]

Yeah. Her intentions may have changed after having Hornet too, wishing or hoping for a better outcome for her. It’s very likely the reason was inspired partly by GMS. I mean a wyrm and weaver hybrid as shown is very very strong.

[sudden pivot]

I think it did and the only reason the infection doesnt is because she's sealed

[azure dirge]

Radiances influence may once have gone far beyond, it is also dead now so it’s hard to say how far it’s reach was.

[vague anvil]

@azure dirge Tokyo Teddy Bear

[azure dirge]

Yeah?

[sudden pivot]

maybe the Deepnest Weavers hoped to eventually return with the full force of Deepnest behind them and reclaim Pharloom, something which began to look impossible once the Sire of Beast's Den died so they desperately needed an heir

[vague anvil]

I was wondering on why the pale king didn't choose like some randoms to use as seal

[sudden pivot]

assumably they had to be intellegent with Soul magic

[vague anvil]

herrah and watcher was?

[grand bison]

maybe they had to be powerful bugs

[azure dirge]

They wouldn’t be able to seal radiance. It requires a strong Will or such a lack thereof that there is nothing to corrupt.

[vague anvil]

that's a song :3

[sudden pivot]

Herrah was a Weaver, Watcher we have no evidence of but we know like literally nothing abouyt Lurien so, he also would have had full autonomy over the Soul Masters so he coulda learned from them if PK allowed it

[whole holly]

why didn't pale king use vessels also as seals?

[vague anvil]

ohhh!

herrah being a lower being and a queen, dedication

[azure dirge]

Most bugs are weak willed and would have ended up like the enemies you fight throughout the game instead of the dreamers.

[vague anvil]

it might not work like that

[vague anvil]

TRUEEE that's a big point

[whole holly]

what about Monomon, i guess she created Things that hold soul

[whole holly]

okay

[azure dirge]

Regret, also there was never supposed to be more vessels there was supposed to be one and that one perfect. They also shouldn’t have had the wills to do so. Plus only THK and Knight have extremely powerful wills. Lost Kin also might qualify though.

[vague anvil]

ancient civilization made those

[whole holly]

i mean those squids

[sudden pivot]

it seems you need to simply ignore the Radiance's temptation all together, for example take Myla, I imagined she tried to fight against the infection telling her to give in and she'd have all the crystals she wanted or whatever by being like "no! thats a lie! I just have to keep mining and i'll find more crystals" which actually just infected her more over time, where as she needed to abandond the idea of the crystals all together? (i.e. Hunter: "The more the busg of Hallownest resisted the infection, the more it consumed them")

[azure dirge]

Knight is the strongest vessel followed by THK, then Lost Kin. The moth cloak vessel might be a bit stronger than average considering where we find them.

[azure dirge]

Kinda like quicksand. The keyword here is resisted. They never treated the actual issue or got away from it. Knight shakes a few people out of it and they seem to find ways to get away from it.

Knight does the impossible and just goes and kills it at its source. Fighting radiance seems highly effective actually.

[sudden pivot]

exactly, for example Sly, he'd given up on seeing the Nailmasters again, if after clearing his head he had resolved to try and find them instead of returning to his shop he would have surely fallen fully to infection

[whole holly]

guys can we use tricks to ender pharloom bay is it just leaked map that doesn't have in game location sprites?

[torn lagoon]

guys what's the best Silksong lore video

[sudden pivot]

I think the implication is that no being is powerful enough to do so except for the Masters and the unified Abyss

[azure dirge]

Yeah, it’s not about resisting or giving in, it’s more about avoiding really.

[azure dirge]

I think it’s more so that it’s usually a fruitless effort. You can fight the radiance but you are basically just trimming leaves in most cases. Knight fights the source and destroys it entirely with the void, which is why it worked.

The pale king and white lady are probably fine because they can fight radiance off of their minds

But they can’t annihilate it at the source. Or doing so, they themselves may fail.

Even if they did go kill radiance it would grow back eventually too.

[sudden pivot]

yeah I think we agree all im saying is I dont think any other being would have been able to kill the Radiance if they had gone into THK's mind with the Dreamnail, other than the Masters probably

[azure dirge]

Who are the masters again?

[sudden pivot]

the Steelhearts masters

Jinn only consider the Knight equal to the masters once they've obtained Void Heart, and Steel Seer Zi says that Higher Beings must submit to the will of the masters

"Pale It... You would reject the role? Are you not tamed, bound, by Masters?... You would know... obedience is essential.
Recall, the fate of those who defy... Even you higher... Especially you higher..."

[azure dirge]

It is curious. Hard to say if they could kill radiance though, radiance is an extremely powerful higher being. Unless they could do what the void does I don’t know if they could kill them. After all one of the reasons the Knight can kill radiance is because the void essentially wipes out every trace of radiance in the dreamworld.

Radiance was also beaten at some point before, or fell from its prior seat and managed to spread again.

[azure dirge]

“This It... A rare It. Has not seen many, so vulnerable, but triumphant. Makes Jinn feel a thing... surprise?
Jinn misjudged... The It is not inferior. Perhaps... different? Different to Jinn. More complete? Different... like masters?”

I wonder what that makes shadelord. Something beyond just a higher being or pale being? I wonder where Radiance sits.

[sudden pivot]

my interpretation is that the Pale King immediately targeted the Moth Tribe for cultural subterfuge immediately upon entering the Kingdom before the Radiance could really react, we know from the Mushroom ruler that PK knew from the beginning that Radiance would be the ultimate end of his kingdom, makes sense then that he would start with assimilating her people to try and remove her from the equation that way

[sudden pivot]

my assumption is that Radiance is like the peak of what a Higher Being could conceivably be without being born Pale, and then PK in Wyrm form was like peak Pale Being and probably stronger than Radiance but is much weaker in his form of "meagre shell", and the Shade Lord is just >>>>>

[azure dirge]

Kinda like a stalemate between pale king and radiance in a way, pale king also had to shed a lot of his strength probably to do what he was doing. Wonder where Lifeblood ranks.

Pale King couldn’t kill radiance but radiance couldn’t normally kill pale king. Though he did end up succumbing to their battle in the end.

Or “war” rather.

[sudden pivot]

Lifeblood seems unique in that its higher being is entirely physical, only appearing in the Dreamworld at all when being attuned to by the Godseeker, even Unn for example who's primary form resides in the physical world, is clearly very active and comfortable within the Dream relam, or yknow was before getting fucked over by more imperialistic gods

[sudden pivot]

makes sense, they clearly are about the same in their general "aura" given the Godseekers literally mistook them for eachother iirc

[azure dirge]

Yeah true. Lifeblood is very weird. I wonder what happened with the steel enemies and steel assassin planned for SK

[azure dirge]

It makes sense to a degree, they were almost opposites but were based on the same thing. Guess that would be more like parallels, mirrors.

[sudden pivot]

Steel City DLC I am like ten thousand percent confident

[azure dirge]

Same powers in a way but reversed in order and ability.

[azure dirge]

Maybe we will get to see and fight these masters.

[sudden pivot]

Radiance was the light of the world itself, cruel and unforgiving but undeniably beautiful and bountifully giving all the same, whereas the Pale King was the metaphorical light of man, of society, civilization, order, law, meaning, purpose

I would add culture too

[azure dirge]

Radiance was fully dream based while PK was more a singular physical being, one fostered higher thought and progress the other primal instinct and evolution. Both were very powerful beings respectively, beings that would not normally be slain.

A dream that effects reality, and a reality that molds dreams.

[sudden pivot]

PK does refer to her as "blazing kin" which is pretty interesting

could be read as "kin who is blazing" but I read as "kin in our blazing nature"

[azure dirge]

That is interesting. Radiance also does have a very similar crown design and her legs also fit that pale king aesthetic. The shape and designs on the carapace is very similar to pale kings aesthetic.

[sudden pivot]

also the fact that PK is stated to have been nearly impossible for a mortal bug to look at if only for the sheer brightness of his pale glow

and thats the only (though perhaps metaphorical) reason we are given for why the majority of moths who defected did

[azure dirge]

That is interesting

And Seer wants to make up for all the troubles of his ancestors it seems. To see things through to the end.

[sudden pivot]

Seer seems loyal to the Radiance but unable to abide her current actions, her last dialogue seems to suggest she's returning to the Radiance so she loves her clearly but still understands she has to go, maybe sees it as sort of for her own good, rather than living a tortured existence trapped in an nigh-empty dream, only able to exert herself through the flailing limbs of all fallen to her, not much unlike the Void she so despises

the Wyrm also "becomes" Beacon, as in he wasn't originally, and we know him doing so was conditonal on those he granted sentience worshipping hm, he also told them he was the creator of the entire caverns of Hallownest, and that there was no world beyond, perhaps this was all in an attempt to make the bugs believe that he was the only one capable of giving sentience and true life, mainly in order to kill any worship of the Radiance who not only gave the Moths sentience, but just straight up creation ex nihilo'd them

we also know GMS could grant sentience, Unn, Nightmare Heart, and some bugs are just born sentient, like Vespa and the Snail Shamans

oh and the mantids duh how could I forget

[azure dirge]

Kinda feels like a passing on of the torch. The dream nail was given to you initially most likely to make up for perceived wrongdoing, then when knight shows proficiency and outstanding talent, such to collect all the essence left in the kingdom, they see that they are no longer needed anymore. The new generation can handle the present, and they have seen all that can be passed along, passed.

Seer may even worship dreams themselves ngl. The essence itself. It is interesting how that worship aspect comes into play. Wonder why pale king even did what he did, shed his form to become a beacon reliant on worship and to foster intelligence among lesser bugs.

[azure dirge]

Gms seemed to uplift in a very specific manner too. At least with weavers, and then weavers also seemed to be capable of doing so to some extent.

[azure dirge]

Mantises and shakra’s people also seem to be born fighters and be born with masks. Could be related.

Hallownest and Pharloom also seem to be nexuses that ward off the wastes.

[sudden pivot]

thats actually a really good point about them probably worshiping Essence itself, especially given Radiance seems to simply be an extremely consolidated mass of essence about one concept, the light of the world and the light of life, which is why the Moths worshiped Essence as memories of the dead, it was their way of keeping them alive (i.e. Spirit's Glade) which likely became more of a Taboo and less commonly practiced after Pale King showed up (i.e. Spirit's Glade again lol)

[sudden pivot]

oooooo interesting point, very true

[azure dirge]

Seer may have seen it as cleansing the essence and dream, as radiance had become something tainted.

[sudden pivot]

we can assume there's other fairly thriving Kingdoms from the Cradle cages, no?

[ember river]

Didn't Radiance create the moths though?

[azure dirge]

Skar are also similar.

[ember river]

We don't really know the state or size of those kingdoms though

[azure dirge]

Seems radiance uplifted them. Though the moths stopped worshipping her at some point. Even Seer doesn’t seem pro radiance entirely.

[sudden pivot]

her last dialouge seems to imply some kind of direct loyalty to Radiance still though:

"Don't remember us, Wielder. Don't honour us. We do not deserve it...
Aahh... I'm sorry...
Light... Radiance...
I... remember you."

[ember river]

Yeah, created or uplifted. The moths stopped worshipping her when the Pale King showed up IIRC

[azure dirge]

Well pharloom probably isn’t the only one outside Hallownest. Hard to say how many there could be.

[errant hare]

Noteworthily Xylotol in Pharloom (lifeblood alchemist guy) talks about how the main reason he doesn't believe Hornet having seen lifeblood/'plasmium' before was bc "the lands are far too barren for it to have been able to thrive in those wastes beyond", implying that whatever brings about the nexus locations these kingdoms are built on is rather rare to the extent that many bugs never encounter another

[ember river]

That's why Seer calls them fickle

[sudden pivot]

I assume she created them more or less the same way Unn made Mosskin

[sudden pivot]

it was probably usually Wyrms

[azure dirge]

But they do seem prevalent enough that pharloom bugs could leave and procreate and then come back in droves

[sudden pivot]

Bardoon says the world is smaller now that they're gone

[ember river]

That's besides the point, what I mean is that moths probably wouldn't claim the Radiance became tainted, especially when they are the catalyst

[obsidian quail]

Seer wasn’t loyal to radiance pretty sure

[ember river]

She wasn't

[sudden pivot]

yeah I wasn't commenting on that, I know it's besides the point you were making, I didn't think about it but I can turn off the reply ping if you like for when im merely commenting on part of what you've said :3

[azure dirge]

This dialogue kinda suggests sorrow and remorse over actions and their sin of bringing about radiance, and perhaps the radiance they resisted this entire time by holding out to pass along the dream nail finally reclaims them. But rather then becoming infected they just allow themselves to disperse into essence. Kinda like how we talked about earlier resisting radiance eventually leads you to succumbing.

They resisted through their duty, but their duty was fulfilled within knight.

[ember river]

Oh, pings aren't a problem for me, I can do it to my replies if you want though

[sudden pivot]

no worries I dont mind ^^

[sudden pivot]

that makes sense, what she says right before that is "Ah, but what's done is done. And so am I. The Wielder has at last appeared and I've held the memories of my tribe for long enough. It is time for us to be forgotten too."

[azure dirge]

Seer clearly expresses a belief that their is wrongdoing in the moth’s worship of the radiance.

[azure dirge]

I think in a way it’s also to prevent the radiance from ever coming back.

No more tribe, no more memories. They can never bring about radiance again.

[errant hare]

I always read it as Seer being sorrowful and regretful at having been part of the tribe that spurned effectively their mother figure and stirred her into such a rage to start the Infection to begin with

[ember river]

Really? I read it as she claiming it was wrong to abandon the Radiance to worship the Pale King

[sudden pivot]

also Radiance is consistently associated with time, thats an interesting angle we haven't discussed much:

"VOID, yours is the power opposed.
But yours is potential, eternity potential, force that could deny Time.
VOID, harness shall be placed upon you."

it could be she was so abnormally powerful for a Higher Being because she had been a universal creature in the Dream world that most civilizations had ended up falling to

[ember river]

So much Essence... So bright.... You truly are the Wielder my tribe so long has dreamed of.
The folk of my tribe were born from a light. Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still.
They were content to bask in that light and honoured it... for a time.
But another light appeared in our world... A wyrm that took the form of a king.
How fickle my ancestors must have been. They forsook the light that spawned them. Turned their backs to it... Forgot it even.
And so this kingdom was born from that betrayal. But the memories of that ancient light still lingered, hush whispers of faith... Until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light.
Ah, but what's done is done. And so am I. The Wielder has at last appeared and I've held the memories of my tribe for long enough. It is time for us to be forgotten too.
Don't remember us, Wielder. Don't honour us. We do not deserve it...
Aahh... I'm sorry...
Light... Radiance...
I... remember you.

[sudden pivot]

like where she was just naturally associated with decay and entropy, this would also make sense in light of the Nightmare Heart being so obsessed with death and rebirth

and considering Nightmare Heart is universal we know that

[azure dirge]

To me it seems they don’t agree with the betrayal of the radiance but also because they in part brought radiance with them in that betrayal. The memories of it spreading beyond just them as a result.

[ember river]

Any other instances of that? We get many references from the Pale King to trying to halt time, or place the kingdom into stasis. His ultimate goal was to make a truly eternal kingdom, after all

[errant hare]

Which just generally seems to be the pale being motive

[ember river]

How does she agree? She calls the old moths fickle over abandoning the Radiance. She doesn't really make any opinionated statements about either HB

[azure dirge]

It is quite interesting. Almost as interesting that the shade lord is possible at all. A higher being born from a void was likely something no one ever expected to come into being. A truly terrifying being.

[obsidian quail]

i think in the context of PK he could be saying denying the inevitable downfall he sees of his kingdom in the future

the whole game is about that

[sudden pivot]

and we know from the Mushroom ruler that PK knew that his kingdom would fall to Radiance in time, so any references of Hallownest trying to perserve against time is inherently saying "Radiance" in the subtext

[azure dirge]

She mentions the memories of the ancient light still linger, hushed faith, until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light.

It’s her tribes fault that radiance was betrayed as it was, just as it is their fault that it’s faith and whispers were carried into Hallownest.

[obsidian quail]

i think ur overthinking it when equating radiance to time

[azure dirge]

Seer also takes actions that go against radiance by helping Knight.

[sudden pivot]

im really not, you can see in the dev notes how intentional all the thematics around time are

[ember river]

Yeah, but that's more of an explanation to what happens than her actually saying worshipping the Radiance was a mistake

[obsidian quail]

yeah Radiance was the cause sure but the meta message is about not delaying the inevitable which is PK’s whole arc

[azure dirge]

I never said worshipping radiance was a mistake. I’m saying she views her tribes actions as folly and sin overall, and she inherently is working against the radiance currently.

[ember river]

If you're trying to draw a parallel, the Void is clearly the most obvious similarity with entropy, time and decay. The force that will claim everything, god and kingdom alike

[sudden pivot]

right but from an in-universe perspective "the inevitable" was Radiance and PK knew that

[obsidian quail]

yeah she’s the cause but she’s not time itself, PK just didn’t want his reign to end

[sudden pivot]

and Radiance is the rival of the Void, who's power lies in memories allowing the past to exist in the present

[azure dirge]

Well radiance represents a lot of things. Primal nature, evolution, even an inevitable decay of civilization.

[ember river]

Not so sure about sin, since it's not something really brought up in the first game, but the rest I'd say is correct

[azure dirge]

She is kinda like “don’t remember us” and plans to take the memory of her tribe with her in its entirety. Seems extremely guilty.

[sudden pivot]

my head canon/theory is that Radiance was responsible for the inevitable decay of the majority of civilizations throughout history, who when things got hard ultimately gave up civilization for union in her light

[ember river]

I think that line is severely misunderstood. In my opinion, I'd say there are two possible interpretations of that line:

1. The Knight is the Radiance's ancient enemy since it's a Vessel
2. The Radiance opposes the void as much as any other god, and that statement is analogous to the Pale King writing "VOID, yours is the power opposed"

I wouldn't say the Radiance is the natural rival of the void or anything

[obsidian quail]

Radiance and PK are light oriented and Void is Darkness

we just saw the light vs dark in silksong

[azure dirge]

It’s possible. Void is also eternal, attracted to soul. The only thing that opposes it is the everbloom, but the everbloom is interesting. It may even be related to the land of the masters somehow perhaps if they are a power truly so similar to the void. The flower is also seen as an ill omen by some.

[ember river]

Yeah, but that applies to many, many higher beings

[obsidian quail]

i know i’m agreeing that Void and Radiance aren’t eternal rivals they’re just antagonistic by nature

[ember river]

The flower can protect its wielder, but it is eventually consumed and destroyed anyways

[sudden pivot]

the first one makes no sense, the Vessels would be very very young from her perspective, the second one makes a lot more sense and pretty much seems to me to agree with what im arguing? I dont really know what you mean by a "natural rival" I just mean Raidance and the Void probably came into conflict with each other more than any 2 other beings in history and are thematic opposites

[azure dirge]

Well that was merely a memory of the flower, and it is outside of its normal habitat. We see a delicate and fragile everbloom is capable of annihilating shadelord for instance. The question is what a flower like that could do in its home environment I think.

Because it’s home must be special to instill it with that power.

And for it to remain alive and well.

[obsidian quail]

any being could have fucked the kingdom and PK could have failed trying to fix it just for it to still get fucked and it would still be the same, both PK and Radiance are pretty fixated on not letting their eras end it’s just a cautionary tale, we can’t take it too literal the story is a medium for the message

Vespa comments on it etc

[ember river]

By natural rival I mean the void isn't especifically the opposite to the Radiance, or that Essence and Void are diametrically opposed forces.
Void, if anything can be considered its enemy, would be existence or life as a whole. That's what it attacks, that's what it erases. The Radiance is no different to GMS in that regard

[azure dirge]

We’re discussing and analyzing lore this is the worst place to come into and go “don’t over analyze it’s just a medium for story.”

[sudden pivot]

its so funny you say that because Radiance is directly thematically tied to life itself

[azure dirge]

Void is strange, I mean shadelord can literally crawl out of the dreamworld for instance.

[sudden pivot]

except PK had FUTURE VISION AND KNEW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN oml

he KNEW it would be Radiance specifically

[obsidian quail]

yeah that’s why he said oppose Time because time moves forward to the end of his reign

he’s trying to stop that future of no reign

[sudden pivot]

yes, time would then be a thematic allegory for Radiance

[ember river]

Also, this, the Radiance, with wrath and folly, caused immense destruction to hold to the embers of what was her worship, and the same applies to the Pale King, who even knowing what was approaching still threw countless lifes into the void with the slim hope that they would finally uphold eternity for his kingdom

[obsidian quail]

sigh

[obsidian quail]

yeah Radiance did the same thing PK did, both are trying to oppose time

[sudden pivot]

it's not exclusively a thematic allegory for Radiance, but it's also isn't not that

[ember river]

I don't like making specific Higher Beings representatives of some force because that kinda throws off the main point: They can die, they WILL die, they are not eternal and neither are their subjects.
There is a power far above them that cannot be controlled and cannot be stopped

Radiance is a victim to eras and the passing of time as much as the Pale King is

And even if we go to Silksong, so is GMS, and so are the Weavers and the Citadel bugs

[sudden pivot]

they are a thematic representative of some higher force

[ember river]

All Higher Beings are pretty much equal in that regard

[sudden pivot]

what higher force is Unn thematic of?

[azure dirge]

I think you are thinking of it wrong. They aren’t representatives of higher forces, more so that higher forces are in ways something they hold. They exist separately of one another but they have ties to some things.

[sudden pivot]

what higher force is GMS thematic of? White Lady?

[azure dirge]

Killing radiance doesn’t end dreams and essence for instance. Just like PK dying doesn’t end focus and souls or higher thought.

[sudden pivot]

Pale King has a good argument, he represents like, civilization

Nightmare heart is death and birth obviously

[ember river]

None, they are just doing their own thing like Radiance is, even if WL and GMS seem to represent motherhood or whatever, killing them doesn't stop birth

[narrow sky]

GMS is capitalism

[ember river]

Higher Beings don't embody any aspects of reality, they are extremely powerful creatures but unimportant to the world in the end

[ember river]

She didn't establish any of that actually, it was all her treacherous daughters and/or the bugs that followed them

[sudden pivot]

neither of them are thematically associated with motherhood the way Radiance is with time, they're just mothers, im not arguing that Radiance has any power over time either

[azure dirge]

Higher beings take on traits of higher powers and aspects. They aren’t necessary for those things, but end up influencing them to some degree.

[ember river]

To claim that Radiance is more associated with time more than GMS is associated with motherhood has to be one of the boldest claims I've seen here yet

[obsidian quail]

so ur saying Radiance influences time?

[sudden pivot]

thematically associated, you really love leaving that part out

[narrow sky]

what even is GMS

[sudden pivot]

Grand Mother Silk

[ember river]

A huge pale spider

[sudden pivot]

oh im stupid I thought you were asking about the abbreviation lmao

[narrow sky]

she doesn't really look like a spider

[ember river]

What do you even mean by saying thematically, motherhood is a big theme all around Silksong already, not to mention her design with the giant womb

[obsidian quail]

i don’t really understand what u mean by thematically but i support u

[ember river]

She kinda does with all the arms extended

[obsidian quail]

she’s like a spider woman thing

[azure dirge]

It’s kinda weird. Technically the weavers were actually spiders I think. I don’t know if higher beings technically are bugs like that or in that way.

[obsidian quail]

where is the Ancient Void Empire game TC we need it

[narrow sky]

also both radiance and gms have conjoined legs

[azure dirge]

Like is radiance technically a moth or not? She uplifted moths but was she herself one? It’s not like PK’s uplifts were wyrms in any way.

[obsidian quail]

they are super Pharlids

i think radiance is classified as a moth

[ember river]

You may claim that the Radiance has the theme of time, but that's ignoring the overarching representation of time and decay that we already have in the series. If anything, it's a red herring, and it is still as vulnerable to the passing of time as any other being

[ember river]

So does the seer in the dream silhouette

[azure dirge]

It’s kinda weird though. Radiance is technically just light after all, inside of the dreamworld.

[ember river]

Radiance seemingly created moths though, the seer calls themselves her spawn

[ember river]

Also, Unn created Greenpath from a dream so this can happen

[azure dirge]

Yeah. But how direct was this? Was is like how GMS uplifted the weavers into what they are?

[narrow sky]

that's probably just so she looks like the radiance

[sudden pivot]

thats not how I took that design at ALL but okay I can see that interpretation of her design and if we do go with that for the sake of argument I do think it lends a lot more to her being thematically tied to motherhood, however your next point is exactly my point, motherhood is a massive theme in all of Silksong and not one that is ever directly metaphorically associated with GMS outside of direct literal statements of her having progenerated the Weavers, Radiance on the other hand as a being is directly associated with the passage of time by the Pale King, a very knowledgeable character, she's also the cause of the ruin of the kingdom and we know that PK knew what was going to be the end of his kingdom, therefore any references to time and decay in Hallownest are implicitly referring to the Radiance, from that and the nature of the Nightmare Heart I am extrapolating the head canon that Radiance may well have been universal and responsible for the falling of many kingdoms throughout time, which is the only actual point im making

[obsidian quail]

if Radiance created moths why can she not be in the real world

[azure dirge]

Does that make a higher being a part of those species?

[ember river]

We don't know

[azure dirge]

What even is this question.

[obsidian quail]

what’s wrong with that question

[azure dirge]

Everything.

[obsidian quail]

okay

[vocal compass]

Ok question shaming is another level of bad

[ember river]

We get a single lore tablet saying that the Pale King wants to stop the effects of time, which is exactly what he's been trying to do since the very start. That's why Hornet (I think) claims the kingdom is in stasis, that's why there are so many constant references to eternity and all that.
Please do show me a single instance more where the Radiance is associated with time so we can have something to work with

[sudden pivot]

not really? the way that she was stopped at first was by stasis and she was eventually killed by the explicit absence of anything, which would include time

[narrow sky]

it's probably the same reason the nightmare heart can only be in the nightmare realm

i don't know what that reason is tho

[obsidian quail]

it’s weird to create things that exist in real world but not be able to go yourself

[azure dirge]

Radiance is heavily essence based and lives within the minds of others. That’s also how she spreads. That’s why she is inside of the dreamworld and practically unkillable.

[sudden pivot]

he is saying he is going to use Void to stop time, if I have to explain what he means by "time" in that sentence when he's only ever used the void proactively against one thing ever, im done with this conversation

[ember river]

Well, the dream realm is its own thing, it can exist in such a reality. Perhaps the real world was her own dream in a way

[narrow sky]

maybe she just doesn't want to?

[azure dirge]

Not really. It’s a pretty common idea that gods exist in a realm beyond creation.

[vocal compass]

Did he even create stuff tho? Like he just influenced people's mind

[ember river]

If you get a little less literal he's going to use void to uphold the eternity he's been chasing, so he'll be effectively stopping time

[obsidian quail]

the Moths exist in real world and were created by radiance

[narrow sky]

she made the moths

[vocal compass]

Yes

[obsidian quail]

Unn and her did the same thing but Unn was chilling in the real world

[azure dirge]

The only thing we’ve ever seen fully and physically cross from the dream realm to the physical realm was the shadelord. Not even absolute radiance could escape godhome.

[ember river]

Even then I'd argue it could have just been the Godseeker attuning with the Void and becoming that thing

[sudden pivot]

yes, which im saying Radiance is thematically, and not literally associated with time, since she is explicitly what he's using void to try to stop, what aren't you getting?

[azure dirge]

Unn wasn’t a being fully manifested within the dream realm like radiance. They aren’t the same being.

[azure dirge]

Not impossible, but knight is nowhere to be seen within that cutscene either, or their body and mask at least.

[ember river]

That I still have no idea what do you mean by thematically

[azure dirge]

Thematically as in like, analogously. Not directly. It’s like a metaphor.

[ember river]

Oh, yeah, it's weird that the knight isn't there anymore

[obsidian quail]

i was just curious on making stuff that can cross the barrier into the real world but u can’t do it yourself

[azure dirge]

The void also seems to pour directly out of them to form shadelord. Void seems to be able to move into the dream world and out of it to some degree.

[ember river]

Then it still isn't a metaphor for the passing of time when that same being was fucked by the passing of her own era and this is just her revenge

[narrow sky]

maybe they just forgor to add the knight

[obsidian quail]

seems like a nerf

[sudden pivot]

time is an allegory for Radiance when used in the context of Hallownest, and Radiance can likely be seen as an allegory for time largely in the way she births from nothing and reduces civilizations back to beasts

[ember river]

Why would she want to though

[azure dirge]

I mean the metaphor is that Hallownest is doomed by time because radiance will inevitably return no matter what

[obsidian quail]

to flex on the world like i’m still here peons catch these light beams

[sudden pivot]

are therefore from that I extrapolate the head canon that in-universe she caused the collapse of many societies through out the world

[obsidian quail]

bugs will have a hard time forgetting that

[azure dirge]

Radiance doesn’t create things and send it to the real world she causes things in the real world to change. Like with all the bugs infected by her.

[obsidian quail]

she created the moths who exist in the real world

[azure dirge]

Lifeblood is the opposite. Being pretty much solely located in the physical world and being spread by physical means.

[obsidian quail]

what

[azure dirge]

So? She’s a higher being like PK. She can affect the physical world from the dream world. That’s how essence and the dreamworld works. She doesn’t physically exist outside the dreamworld though.

[sudden pivot]

worth noting the exception that she did create the Moths, but that was likely a one-time thing for the sake of having a people to worship and empower her since her strength is essence based

[obsidian quail]

so nothing i was just saying what u said was wrong

[vocal compass]

No i don't think she did, they were just worshipers of her

[azure dirge]

She just exists in the dreamworld. Radiance exists as the light within minds, eating away at them and driving primal instinct and evolution.

[obsidian quail]

she did create them

[sudden pivot]

she is stated to have created them

[ember river]

Hallownest is doomed, yes, but so is the Radiance. She is not immune to the flow of time, either.
The Pale King was her own doom, she lost everything already, her era is over. Then she ends the Pale King's era, and one of his creations is what will end this new age of the Radiance's rule.
She is affected by the flow of time as every other creature, if she was a metaphor or allegory for a universal constant, it would, by definition, be unaffected by such constant.

[azure dirge]

Creates is a loose term in HK and SK.

[azure dirge]

Ok. 👍

[sudden pivot]

the thematic way PK stops her is literally stasis this is a laughable argument

[ember river]

Seer mentions several time that their tribe was born from the Radiance's light, and that they are her spawn

[obsidian quail]

yeah she oughta take that light and go in the real world herself but she was camping like a coward

[ember river]

That doesn't stop her, the Knight is still the Pale King's offspring, and after a time of ruling unopposed, the Radiance's era once again comes to an end, this time for good

[azure dirge]

She literally can’t. She exists inside of the minds of bugs.

[obsidian quail]

she was too scared of Dung Defender

[ember river]

Eh, perhaps she could use an avatar like Grimm is for the NMH

[sudden pivot]

but that wasn't the plan of the Pale King, and even then nothingness would be the thematic opposite of life and time so it still tracks

[obsidian quail]

i’d be terrified too actually

[azure dirge]

Yeah, I mean she seems to be doing that actually with every bug she infects.

Nosk even hunts down vessels which might be guided by radiance.

[sudden pivot]

Void is what got her which makes sense if she is thematically tied to time

[ember river]

The thing is it's not a plan that stops her, it's just the passage of time. It comes to an end when it is time for it, and she is destroyed forever

[ember river]

Every single death of a HB we've seen is tied to void in some way or another, that doesn't amount to much

Especially when void has so many themes relating to entropy and the end of everything

[obsidian quail]

my glorious Void is up 4-0 on these losers

[azure dirge]

Void also represents eternity though. An eternal nothing.

[ember river]

Wait 4?

[vocal compass]

Agh you dirty voidshipper

[obsidian quail]

i count NKG

just that whole situation

[whole holly]

? how does he get killed by void or Nightmare Heart

[gentle aspen]

PK’s death wasn’t due to void

[azure dirge]

You can help the one guy destroy the troupe

[ember river]

I doubt NKG was the full strength of the Heart, or that it truly died. It was all very specific

[obsidian quail]

Nightmare heart of course is still kicking but damn NKG was strong

[sudden pivot]

but that doesn't happen naturally, had it not been for Pale King trying to stop time the Abyss would have never filled with turbulent shades, furthermore a character eventually falling in the end to what they have been an allgorical representation for is hardly an unheard of trope

[vocal compass]

Because the knight is void?

[azure dirge]

PK’s might be void it’s not confirmed.

[gentle aspen]

Neither was base ending GMS

[ember river]

The entire thing of the Pale King stopping time is his whole goal

[obsidian quail]

yes

[gentle aspen]

I mean it’s not really possible for void to kill him

[vocal compass]

Ok, makes sense

[ember river]

Binding is not really death according to Eva's bind dialogue

[coral totem]

thoughts on the theory that the "rain" in greymoor is actually just the waste of bugs in the citadel?

[gentle aspen]

Void gets pacified by light and the guy is a light deity

[azure dirge]

True but that was a transference of power. It seems like Hornet couldn’t just normally kill GMS.

[sudden pivot]

and he had future vision and he knew that Radiance would be the end of his kingdom, so he was trying to stop time because.....? and therefore that would make Radiance an allegory of.....?

[gentle aspen]

To the point where he was so bright it hurt to look at him

[azure dirge]

That’s not how that works.

[obsidian quail]

yeah but inversely Void also consumes light so get fucked PK

[gentle aspen]

quite literally is, look at the lighthouse

[ember river]

So was the radiance? And GMS was still glowing pale? Nothing is immune to the void

[gentle aspen]

united void is different

[vocal compass]

Pk maybe was overworked and died of lack of sleep or smth

[gentle aspen]

and even then it can’t kill rad until her halo is destroyed

[obsidian quail]

Void cleanse us!

[sudden pivot]

I can see the arguments for both NKG being a HB and not, he considers himself the same being as the Nightmare Heart but also obviously killing him doesn't kill it

[gentle aspen]

@ebon silo don’t post that shit

[obsidian quail]

ancient civilization >>> these other nerds

[ebon silo]

Oh shit my bad

[ember river]

He was trying to stop it from before, the first thing he wrote was that Hallownest was an eternal kingdom that would last forever, that's what stopping time means

[azure dirge]

The lighthouse helped abate and pacify, but it only goes so far. Look at everbloom in the abyss, or the void in pharloom. PK was resistant to void but was fucking with it a lot, he was handling it personally, and when he is dead is it very gloomy and seems void touched.

[obsidian quail]

cooking

[azure dirge]

It’s possible his constant exposure and regrets inevitably lead to him succumbing to it alongside the demise of his kingdom. Hard to say though.

[sudden pivot]

he had future vision, he knew the entire thing from the beginning

[ember river]

It's probably not a full HB, but rather an aspect of one, I guess

[gentle aspen]

it being gloomy doesn’t mean void killed him
the everbloom ran out
and there’s void in his area because of the dead kingsmoulds around

[azure dirge]

PKs not entirely immune to void though.

[ember river]

We don't know how long it can see, if I could predict tomorrow with perfect accuracy that doesn't make me a reliable source for the next century

[gentle aspen]

I never said he was

in the state that it was in it’s highly unlikely it killed him

[azure dirge]

And how did those kingsmoulds die hm?

[sudden pivot]

we know for a fact he could see up until the end of his Kingdom

[ember river]

We don't know when he could start seeing it though

[gentle aspen]

the king is gone so they broke down
the closer ones shut down while the further ones didn’t

[obsidian quail]

it’s a classic trope to see the future and want to evade/deny it just for it to happen anyway, that meta theme has happened across fiction in different forms and HK is one with cute bugs

[azure dirge]

When he did die he was at his lowest and weakest it seems. It’s not impossible it was void. There was void present too with the kingsmoulds.

[ember river]

That doesn't make any sense, they are constructs made with runed shells, soul and void

[sudden pivot]

literally 0 reason to believe anything other than from birth, no way to come to any other conclusion unless you're starting from a conclusion and trying to work backwards to find evidence

[ember river]

From birth to the end of his kingdom? Why exactly?

[ebon silo]

They kinda look like steel machines ngl I feel like the pale king took some ideas

[sudden pivot]

no from his birth

[gentle aspen]

What you said doesn’t address anything I said

[ember river]

I mean when could he see the end of the kingdom

[sudden pivot]

from the time he was born assumably, no reason to think anything else

[gentle aspen]

and idk why it’s so weird for constructs made for the express purpose of protecting the king would stop functioning upon the king’s passing

[ember river]

That they are autonomous and self sufficient like most, if not all other automata in both games

[azure dirge]

https://tenor.com/view/post-this-cat-hamburger-sandwich-cat-funny-gif-2861213721611306457

Let’s stop arguing so much.

[gentle aspen]

ok

[ember river]

Well he didn't take the most basic ass measure to prevent it if he could see it while the moths were ACTIVELY CAUSING IT

[ebon silo]

There would be no society then

[vocal compass]

Pk chocked do hard. He literally knew what would happen and still lost.

[ember river]

1984

[azure dirge]

The conversation is becoming more fruitless than constructive.

Just repeating the same thing back and forth.

[obsidian quail]

PK has the ability to see the future to some extent, i don’t think it’s an absolute 100% seeing his whole life from birth

[sudden pivot]

im sure he did try to prevent it, why do you think their "whispers" of faith were "hushed"? the clear thematic implication is that he DID try to prevent it you just dont like that lol

[ebon silo]

Why would he not break fate like kratos

[azure dirge]

Not angry enough

[obsidian quail]

probably something like Paul in Dune, the Wyrms even look like the Sandworms in Dune

[sudden pivot]

"this ss-lore shit gets serous, get ready to die behind it....."

[sudden pivot]

why

[obsidian quail]

if PK saw the future to the extent that u claim then he would have known the Vessel project would fail

[vocal compass]

"Team cherry!!!, give us godhome like dlc, and my life, is yours."

[sudden pivot]

its literally stated he did what on earth are you on about

[ebon silo]

not yet

[obsidian quail]

because to some extent means it’s not absolute

[ember river]

Why didn't he just genocide the moths though? He was willing to kill a much larger amount of his own offspring

[obsidian quail]

i don’t remember seeing where PK foresaw the Vessel project failing

[narrow sky]

probably the last thing they're adding

[gentle aspen]

[sudden pivot]

there's no reason to assume its not absolute, theres nothing suggesting that, thats an assumption you have no reason to make, the only think you can take from the statement is that he had foresight which just means foresight, full stop

[gentle aspen]

“Why didn’t he kill the very members of the kingdom he was trying to protect?”

[vocal compass]

Yeah that makes sense

[ember river]

He would have saved way more people

[obsidian quail]

saying PK sees the future to some extent means it’s not absolute

[gentle aspen]

By the time the infection started that would just be murder for the sake of murder

It would do nothing

[azure dirge]

PK has foresight, but it does not appear to be perfect. We don’t really know what his limits were and in what aspects. The knight becoming shadelord or lord of shades does not appear to be within his projections. I think PK essentially can figure out the future through his abilities but there may be some things he cannot see through. For instance the void is immune to his abilities.

[obsidian quail]

that’s what to some extent means

[vocal compass]

I know what i must do, but i don't have the strength to do it ah

[ebon silo]

Why didn't the pale king just trained 10k grown up vessels then fight the radiance in turns and asking seer for a dream nail

[ember river]

This is arguing if he could perfectly foresee every single event

[sudden pivot]

he wanted them to worship him, and he didn't seem to be the genociding sort, the Vessels werent technically alive to his mind thats why he didnt mind that, you can ask the same question of why he didn't just eliminate the Moss Kin or Mantid's at the height of his reign

[gentle aspen]

Well he couldn’t do that

[azure dirge]

The vessels were also immune to having their minds, desires, and thoughts read by PK and White Lady.

[vocal compass]

Maybe he didn't know about dream nail

[sudden pivot]

its not stated to be "to some extent" you made that up

[ember river]

That's what I am trying to argue

[obsidian quail]

Koal is dying on that hill

[radiant smelt]

the void blocks omniscience? omg this is just like homestuck fr

[gentle aspen]

PK doesn’t have absolute future vision if he did he wouldn’t have chosen THK

[ebon silo]

There's no way a wyrm wouldn't know that we'll okay maybe because it's another gods tool but still he would've asked seer how to beat their own god

[gentle aspen]

I dunno why you’d argue he does that’s clearly untrue

[sudden pivot]

"what use to foresee an end unavoidable"

[azure dirge]

It’s possible that he just couldn’t use it with THK too though. Since the void seems to resist and oppose such abilities.

[sudden pivot]

according to..? im hearing a whole lot of biased preconceived notions and about 0 pieces of evidence

[gentle aspen]

he chose a vessel that failed?

[zinc pivot]

It could be a case of predeterministic future vision

[gentle aspen]

If he could see the future perfectly he wouldn’t choose thk

[sudden pivot]

which he is stated to have known would happen, he knew the end of his Kingdom was unavoidable no matter what Vessel he chose

[azure dirge]

Might be why he used the void or turned to it, as it was a power opposed and could break through such things.

[gentle aspen]

then he wouldn’t have bothered with the vessel project at all

[azure dirge]

Technically, it was possible too since the knight does achieve it and kills radiance.

[zinc pivot]

He saw it failed, worked in his power to stop it from happening, but didn’t understand the true cause

[gentle aspen]

It’s also really weird to note 0 pieces of evidence heard when you are giving none yourself

[sudden pivot]

yes he would have??? he's a desperate god trying any measure to fight against the inevitable, thats like saying "then he wouldn't have bothered with founding Hallownest at all"

[gentle aspen]

And no, a single line about a demise unavoidable doesn’t mean he had perfect foresight

[sudden pivot]

I have given multiple, reread my previous messages

[azure dirge]

PK does have some level of foresight. Though, it’s not necessarily all powerful. He did foresee the end of his kingdom and the threats that could bring it about.

[sudden pivot]

Bardoon states he had foresight, and there's nothing suggesting it was anything less than perfect, you can believe it wasn't but that has no evidence

[gentle aspen]

neither does your claim

[sudden pivot]

but mine requires less assumptions, there is no proof to be had here

[gentle aspen]

Bardoon also doesn’t suggest they can’t transform multiple times but they don’t

[azure dirge]

There is evidence both ways. PK did fail ultimately, but also the void seems immune to foresight and such things.

[gentle aspen]

It requires more assumptions lmao

[zinc pivot]

Claim one fictional character that has perfect future vision and was capable of overturning it for real

[ebon silo]

Kratos

[gentle aspen]

That’s not a point

[sudden pivot]

foresight = foresight 0 assumptions
foresight = limited foresight 1 assumption

I am so done with this, bye

[gentle aspen]

ofc you’d say it has zero assumptions it’s the point you’re arguing

[sudden pivot]

expalin to me how foresight being foresight is an assumption

[zinc pivot]

Because you seem to claim that PK couldn’t foresee the future that THK failed because he wasn’t pure
Do you think he wouldn’t try nonetheless?

[gentle aspen]

Him being able to see everything requires the assumption that he wasted his time and doomed his kingdom and he was totally aware of everything that was gonna happen

[sudden pivot]

if I said I have the ability to stop time with no further context you wouldn't assume I have The World from JoJo's and can only do it under certain restictions, you'd assume I can stop time as much as I want for as long as I want

[gentle aspen]

no I wouldn’t

what is this point

jeez