sk-lore

[azure dirge]

There is a phantom needolyn spot.

Though she could have just called them Phantom because of their connection the the wraiths and mist.

[edgy barn]

I don't think she usually does

[azure dirge]

Those are what we were talking about. Those are generally from hornet’s perspective.

[ebon silo]

Hmm so which one do y'all think it's the "more canon than this" ending? If it's godhome where the hollow knight if it's DNM why did the shade lord appears

[edgy barn]

I meant that she doesn't usually call them by name

[proud swan]

I think its something we should ignore its just for gameplay. No way of knowing several names. Groal the Great? Nyleth? Karmelita?

[azure dirge]

It seems like godhome with some extra steps along dnm taken.

[dark rune]

thk is a loose end

[azure dirge]

I know. I was providing context to others with your helpful tidbit.

[edgy barn]

Ah

[pastel timber]

its left deliberately vague, i personally prefer p5 ending given the appearance of shade lord, god knows about thk maybe its taking a stroll elsewhere

[edgy barn]

alright then

[azure dirge]

It’s kinda hard to say it’s anything but godhome since shadelord is so directly tied to the focus crest on the godtuner of godhome.

[pastel timber]

yeah shade lord just does not exist full stop without p5 ending

[ebon silo]

I'm assuming something something Hornet after godhome ending "you take care of the hallownest I'll be looking for the little vessel and as she is traveling she gets captured and hollow knight didn't know that" but is exploring hallownest like rn he's probably at the abyss

[edgy barn]

If we end up with the godhome ending, I like to imagine that THK went on the citadel bugs trail and its having an adventure of their own on their way to Pharloom

[dark rune]

lol he wouldnt fit through so many doors

[vernal idol]

Can anyone explain to me what's the purpose of masks in Hallownest and Pharloom? I got curious after reading ||Widow's|| full hunter entry. Also, I've 100%ed the game, so feel free to go for full spoilers if need be

[azure dirge]

Yeah. The only way to focus knight into it would have been through that ending. Though that doesn’t mean all the steps for DNM weren’t taken alongside that ending, or it happened in a different way to some extent, like knight got focused before going to fight THK.

[ebon silo]

He could crawl

[pastel timber]

theres no hallownest left
its the 4/5 people at dirtmouth and the mantis and thats it
everyone else is dead
maybe flukehermit?

[dark rune]

now i need to see spider-mode thk, like how grimm does it

[ebon silo]

that won't stop THK from guarding it still

[azure dirge]

It’s vague. They give identity.

[pastel timber]

yeah herrah is clearly dead the knight totally killed all the dreamers in vain cause it went and did p5 anyway 😭

[ebon silo]

Be a resident in dirtmouth I guess

[dark rune]

the tragedy of it strikes me

[pastel timber]

it is a nice thought, thk defends dirtmouth and without the infection hallownest becomes a hotspot for archaeologists and explorers

[azure dirge]

I think the implication is that knight did both.

[ebon silo]

Or he explores what happened

[dark rune]

itd be funny if unn was like "guess i'll take over now"

[vernal idol]

I was hoping for something deeper, given that both games feature mask makers that don't really do anything gameplay wise (as far as I'm aware at least)

[pastel timber]

i dont think theres much reason for the knight to kill thk after the radiance is already destroyed? and it cant be the other way round cause after dnm the knight returns to the void with all the other siblings

[azure dirge]

We don’t know much, masks seem connected to the pale with the pale liquid lacquer we deliver to the mask maker. They can also apparently usurp the identity of a bug if changed, and Nosks seem immune to this to some degree since they can freely shapeshift and take masks as they like, then there is the fact some bugs are born with masks as a part of their shells and others need masks to be made for them. Then there is the fact that Hornet and Knight can wear more masks/add onto their own masks/shells with the mask shards.

[azure dirge]

It might be that the knight did everything before beating absolute radiance, or the knight fought absolute radiance through dream nailing THK instead of through Godholm.

[pastel timber]

nosk's mask is likely not a mask mask since its a shapeshifter
i think youre right with the pale link though, we know pale beings can uplift lower bugs, and that masks can seemingly do the same as well

[azure dirge]

Well nosk does wear masks still, he takes them from others at times or fashions new ones. Skinx seems to be a nosk and takes Styx’s.

[ebon silo]

I really hope godhome ending is the real one if they ever show a cutscene at some point in later DLCs or anything showing a memory of hornet letting THK guard hallownest as she does something else

[azure dirge]

Literally takes Styx’s, though they wear it wrong.

[pastel timber]

fighting absrad isnt what causes shade lord to appear its specifically having the focus of the godseeker that made that happen
but yeah the knight had to have gotten voidheart for p5 ending anyway, and it probably offed the dreamers before going to godhome

[dark rune]

with pk dead, is the white lady the one giving bugs sentience?

[vernal idol]

Sorry to intrude upon your discussion, but may I add that I don't think the Knight would be able to ascend to the pantheon of Hallownest without first breaking the seal from the Black Temple. Keep in mind that, while "leaking", the Radiance was still sealed there (inside the Hollow Knight): if the temple was kept shut, I don't think the Godseeker would have been able to atune the knight with Absolute Radiance

[pastel timber]

pale kings "beacon" still lingers after his death as per godseeker

[ebon silo]

Probably not I'm pretty sure wyrms are one of the only pale beings to grant sentience

[dark rune]

ok

[dark rune]

who gives pharloom bugs sentience then?

[azure dirge]

True. I think knight probably did fight absrad though, just because that does seem to be what allows him to fully manifest into shadelord as the godtuners see him as having fully gone beyond what they first saw him as.

[pastel timber]

canonically maybe, this is a good theory, though in-game we can do a dreamerless p5 ending which begs the question is that an oversight

[vernal idol]

Interesting. I hope we get some more lore about it in the future!

[pastel timber]

yeah thats what im saying, knight killed the dreamers when it didnt have to cause it went and fought absrad in godhome in p5 ending

[azure dirge]

It could be that in the canon of Hollowknight, knight fought the pantheon at the same time as his journey, since it is a dream realm.

[ebon silo]

Some bugs already have sentience way before pale beings decided to grant some but I'd assume these bugs were granted sentience or just had one

[vernal idol]

We can? I thought the Hollow Knight fight was required to unlock P4

[dark rune]

alright

[pastel timber]

canonically the mantis tribe is just built different

[azure dirge]

Yeah.

[dark rune]

im not sure thk is a boss on the godtuner

[azure dirge]

Mantises also have inborn masks it seems. Similar to our new map lady Shakra.

[pastel timber]

nope, PV isnt counted as thk, who technically doesnt appear in godhome at all (from a game standpoint counting them as different bosses, not a lore standpoint)

[azure dirge]

Beings born with masks seem to have more focus, Identity, and being.

[hushed yoke]

is this like, a debate on canonicity? because the game does let you reach the godhome ending without the dreamers or unsealing the door

that and it feels a little silly to suggest godseeker wouldnt be able to attune through the black egg, since the weakening of the seals could be felt by the vessels, and that the radiance's influence was literally seeping out

[vernal idol]

Pure Vessel is a fleshed out, harder version of Hollow Knight, so I thought he was required for it

[dark rune]

shakra and iselda kinda look similar to me

[pastel timber]

theres a few bosses that arent necessary for pantheons, including god tamer for some reason (mercy to not have to do colo 3? who knows)

[ebon silo]

Not the same species very safe to say

[vernal idol]

Yes, but she was weak. Godseeker atunes the Knight to her at her peak, hence my reasoning

[edgy barn]

It is not. Neither is normal Radiance obviously

[azure dirge]

We are talking about the most likely canon of HK, as in what Knight did. The canon seems to be he did just about everything before achieving godhome ending since the good tuning is required for shadelord to come about.

[vernal idol]

I was unaware of this! The more one knows ahaha

[pastel timber]

112% p5 ending steel soul run is canon assumedly

[ebon silo]

Truly built dif

[azure dirge]

Yeah that’s likely.

[edgy barn]

The goat

[azure dirge]

Most games usually go off the canon that the pc is the best possible player

[lyric rose]

Psalm Cylinder 2 genuinely had me frozen for a moment.

[pastel timber]

p5ab is the TRUE canon ending

[pastel timber]

which ones that

[vernal idol]

I didn't know that as well! Thank god they kept the invincibility glitch, at least we can unlock stuff even if we don't want to suffer through hours of trial and error 😅

[azure dirge]

Most people argue the ending of HK not because of evidence but because they prefer DNM.

[hushed yoke]

i had similar thoughts, but now seeing them side by side im not certain. i feel the fact that iselda is a warrior and is hooked up with a cartographer makes a weird enough thematic connection for one to make lore assumptions, but the only thing i can come up with is that they come from similar cultural roots

[pastel timber]

dnm is definitely the "true" ending of hk, its just silksong doesnt follow that one imo

[lyric rose]

“Last Surgery of Conductor Mizello, performed in Whiteward’s operating theatre.”

[ebon silo]

Though it wouldn't make sense because skong shows the shade lord but it's just confusing unless really the THK appears briefly or even mentioned it could confirmed godhome as the real one but for now I think DNM could be the real one

[edgy barn]

Seriously tho, it would be kind of fucked up that the knight kills Monomon in front of Quirrel, Herrah in front of Hornet, and Lumen in front of...uhh...his butler? And then doesn't enter the black egg.

[pastel timber]

yeahj recording that was insane like why 😭

[pastel timber]

if i was hornet i'd be so pissed

[hushed yoke]

oh shit, fr? other than the knight flashing as shade lord for a second, is there any reasoning for that?

[lyric rose]

Upon listening again it genuinely sounds like what I’d imagine the audio recording for a cartel execution to sound like, completely with a language I don’t understand.

[dark rune]

perhaps recognition from hornet? or just "hey he really is the shadelord"

[vernal idol]

What do you mean by "true" ending? If we go by what's canonical, then I think we should look at Silksong, which indeed would put the P5 ending as the canonical one (in fact, I would argue it would even probably be the Delicate Flower ending)

[lethal burrow]

seen as many other people are here I'll restate my findings.

these pillars and carvings appear across the breath of the kingdom.
From duct to the steps....

What do you all make of this?

[azure dirge]

The only issue is that shadelord is only possible with Godhome because it requires the godtuners crest to focus the knight and void. The cutscene saving Hornet also follows the shadelord’s attacks on radiance not the dnm singular knights hits on radiance.

[pastel timber]

simply put shade lord doesnt exist without p5 ending, theres no reasonable explanation for dnm being canon given that flash

[azure dirge]

It’s very specifically the shadelords screen black cut with white strikes.

[hushed yoke]

sorry i picked weird wording, i meant what other proof there is that silksong doesnt follow the events of dream no more

[pastel timber]

by "true" i mean colloquially, its the one everyone agrees gets to be called the "true ending", and its the most logical one narratively for just hollow knight in a vacuum, but silksong clearly doesnt follow it either way

[azure dirge]

I like dnm too. But I think dnm is partially canon. The steps taken to achieve dnm seem to have been taken, but the ending was p5 godholm.

[lyric rose]

With how Hornet describes her past in Hallownest, Dream No More sounds canon.

She mentions something about experience with “slaying a deity”

[ebon silo]

Imagine that was unn

[pastel timber]

she said "even gods can fall" which she saw twice, in godhome ending radiance dies, and her father the pale king also failed to contain her

[vernal idol]

I'm not sure I agree with it being the "true" ending, even in that sense. Sure, it was the true ending in the base game, but more free content had already been planned, so the story was also probably planned to go the P5 route way in advance

[lyric rose]

And she only would’ve been there to do it in Dream No More. In Embrace the Void, she’s just outside the temple when the infection suddenly stops.

[azure dirge]

If knight did all the steps to dnm this still makes sense, it just seems he ended up with the godhome ending. Because he has become shadelord.

She did help knight before actually fighting THK. In dnm she wouldn’t know much of anything about the fight with radiance actually. She does most of her help technically before you fight THK.

[lyric rose]

Perhaps the knight eventually becomes the shade lord, as they already were a cut above the other vessels in the “Void Given Form” as described by the Void Idol

[ebon silo]

Also I would assume hornet knew the knight killed the radiance but with in a way she doesn't know in godhome

[pastel timber]

i am of the steadfast belief that 8 years ago team cherry made that reddit comment "all endings are canon" that people still wont stop quoting, then made the godhome ending and went "wait this is sick as fuck" and decided to make silksong follow it cause it was awesome

[azure dirge]

She also was the sentinel of the kingdom who kept watch and stopped the other vessels. She helped Knight just by letting him get the king’s brand

[vernal idol]

I was unaware of that comment. Fair enough then 😂

[lyric rose]

I mean to DNM being canon for better likelihood of returning players understanding it

[azure dirge]

That’s not possible though because it required the godhome’s god tuning, which is a tuning focus crest.

[hushed yoke]

ah, fair enough, i feel the fact that the shade lord is alluded to by that shade cloak corpse guy, and the implications of the voidheart description, is enough to suggest the that the knight is already a shade lord, and the fact that the shade lord only appears briefly can allude to either that silksong is post godhome, or that the post-DNM knight- with all their time and experience in the void- was already coming into their potential as a lord of shades (which it was already recognized as being)

im not sure why god tuning is specifically required for that when the concept of a lord of shades exists independently of them, it was only required to draw it out of the knight for the ending of godhome, but i dont think that suggests its impossible for it to develop on its own with time

[ebon silo]

Yes but again in the end it won't make sense still

[azure dirge]

Knight would have had to get tuned somehow in the void and focused. The shadelord is void given focus, which knight couldn’t focus the void on his own.

[pastel timber]

the ending is definitely left vague enough that dnm-ending players can understand it, but the flash of shade lord is for p5-ending players to freak out even more over whats really happening

[azure dirge]

I think both endings are canon and mixed together somehow. That’s just how it seems to be.

It’s very possible knight could have done both to some level.

[pastel timber]

its the general agreeance that godseekers were needed to form the shade lord because the shade lord statue for getting radiant HoG is called "void given focus", and the godseekers are the only ones focusing anything besides soul in hallownest

[hushed yoke]

so then why does the knight get recognized as lord of shades outside of godhome? is the shade cloak corpse stupid?

[pastel timber]

the lord of shades was probably its god, one existed forever ago, p5 ending formed a new one

[hushed yoke]

yeah but it doesnt say that until after the knight gets the voidheart

yknow, uniting the void under its will or whatever the description was

[pastel timber]

its like i say its left deliberately vague so that people who havent beat p5 can still get it, but i like to think it follows p5 given my interpretation of events

[pastel timber]

oh wait is this what the person the other day was saying about "shade lord" and "lord of shades" being two different entities

[ebon silo]

The real ending is the mushroom rocket

[azure dirge]

He becomes the lord of shades then, but he has yet to become the shadelord. The knight becomes the shadelord when focused as it brings about his true form, and allows it to slip out from the godseekers.

[lyric rose]

We know that ending is 100% canon

[pastel timber]

third game coming soon whos hyped

[lyric rose]

ZoteBoat

[vernal idol]

I always thought the Shade Lord was just the Knight, perfectly atuned with the Void (almost like the head of a hivemind), having ascended to a new, undefeatable, godly status. I thought the Silksong ending scene kinda seemed to corroborate that idea.

[azure dirge]

Probably. You become the lord of shades with the void charm as the shades follow your will, with gods seekers you become the shadelord as the shades and you become one focused being.

[azure dirge]

That’s pretty much spot on.

The knights will becoming one with the shades entirely, not merely accepted by them and accepting them but Unity.

[pastel timber]

ohh see this is how i interpreted the game i just didnt put the two titles together

[azure dirge]

Ye

[pastel timber]

i think the knight is just reaching out from within the shade lord to give her a familiar face while it saves her cause its cute like that

[ebon silo]

Why they gotta make the lore so difficult it's like digging for Egyptian sites or some shit

[lyric rose]

shade lord vs tree Ori who wins

[vernal idol]

I was confused because you guys seemed to be talking about them as separate entities, and I'm very ignorant in regards to HK lore 😅

[pastel timber]

the challenge is the fun!

[azure dirge]

I mean the shadelord is made up of the knight and the shades. So it’s not unlikely they can just do that.

[ebon silo]

like we could find pharaoh before we solve which ending is real

[misty tiger]

bug bug then a bug makes more bug then bug 🐛 🐜 🐞

[pastel timber]

well youre in the right place to learn more!

[azure dirge]

Well it’s because Knight can be separated into pre shadelord as well, and in dnm he doesn’t become shadelord. We are talking about possible knights basically.

[lyric rose]

“Lord of Shades” is the knight’s shade with cool void tendril arms and actual legs

[pastel timber]

i was freaking out so hard it was insane

[lyric rose]

“The Shadelord” is Voidzilla

[ebon silo]

We are so lucky the shade lord is on our side

Truly an unstoppable force

[azure dirge]

I thought shadelord/knight show up because they went looking for Hornet after she went missing and was kidnapped, and that’s why they didn’t just stop the chaos before Hornet dove into the void.

[vernal idol]

He seems to disappear in the DNM ending, but couldn't we speculate that he could also have just become the Lord of Shades (small with tentacles), and just not the fully fledged Shade Lord with that ending?

[pastel timber]

the hollow knight franchise from now on will be hornet travelling to different kingdoms and feeding pale beings to her sibling The Void

[lyric rose]

The Knight just went home to the Abyss

[azure dirge]

Well he didn’t because he specifically shows up as shadelord and the shadelord attacks are used in silksong. This is what we are discussing. The dnm ending doesn’t make him the shadelord, because he doesn’t get focused, the godhome ending does though.

[lethal burrow]

ahh?

[vernal idol]

Iirc, we only see his broken shell and the other shades going away in that ending

[pastel timber]

it becomes the lord of shades when it gets voidheart, it unifies the shades under its will, hence why they come to help during the radiance fight (and you see the knight become the small with tentacles form while killing radiance), afterwards it assumedly returns to the abyss with its siblings

[lyric rose]

The Void: devourer of white peoples

[edgy nebula]

wtf is up with the great gourmand

[lyric rose]

https://tenor.com/view/rain-world-gourmand-burgers-burgers-on-my-mind-i-got-burgers-on-my-mind-gif-7516169475419509636

[vernal idol]

That I know, Silksong clearly follows the P5 ending; I was just speculating regarding the Knight's fate in DNM

[pastel timber]

big dog

[vernal idol]

That makes sense to me

[chilly gyro]

Anyone notice how the weavers got such bonny ass hips?

[azure dirge]

Oh yeah, that’s probs what happened in Dnm. We are just comparing to silksong atm to the canonicity of the endings.

[prisma jay]

is lace a child?

[pastel timber]

no*

[ebon silo]

Wait I forgot I don't think godhome ending is real because I'm pretty sure the godmaster got obliterated unless truly THK appears even briefly then godmaster must've been teleported somewhere else

[azure dirge]

Sort of*

[vernal idol]

She's Grand Mother Silk's child, if that's what you mean. We don't know her actual age

[pastel timber]

lace is a silk construct formed to be a child, but has grown out of that role, now manic and hating her own existence and her mother for creating her like that

[azure dirge]

Basically it doesn’t matter what Lace is. She is perpetually stuck in a child like appearance though because she doesn’t have enough silk to become bigger.

[lethal burrow]

She's presumably younger than the mystery pillars

[ebon silo]

Mystery pillars?

[vernal idol]

Mystery pillars?

[lethal burrow]

mystery pillars.
All across the land.

[ebon silo]

Do these mystery pillars being guarded by a bunch of....pillar men?

[azure dirge]

Tbh I think the reason she isn’t allowed to grow is because there’s not enough silk and the silk to maintain her would be too much, which is also why phantom was probably discarded.

[vernal idol]

I think she's younger than Phantom who, iirc, is like her older sibling (though Mama Silk didn't care much for them)

[azure dirge]

Reminds me of the ancient civilizations architecture.

[silk dirge]

i dont think the ones in ducts mean anything bc they are just aqueduct supports but the other ones are interesting

[pastel timber]

shes probably older than hornet honestly

[lethal burrow]

well, they're all the same, so I don't see how they would mean any less.

[vernal idol]

Them = the Phantom, not Lace (she clearly cares about Lace)

[silk dirge]

speaking of that what waste did the citadel produce exactly

[azure dirge]

I think their wasn’t enough silk for phantom and lace, and phantom as the first was likely less advanced so to say.

[lethal burrow]

I don't see the resemblance but screenshots can't lie so you free to find pictures

[pastel timber]

it may well just be the architecture of the citadel when it still worked with stonemasonry, before it advanced into metallurgy

[silk dirge]

like what waste producing activities were they doing

[lethal burrow]

Maybe that's the distinction between the Weavers and grandmother silk

[vernal idol]

Isn't she refered to as having a "frail existence" or something like that? I guess that kinda could also imply she hasn't been around that long

[azure dirge]

Mostly the ridges at the top and bottom.

[pastel timber]

shit tons of silk apparently, they did a lot of metalwork too

[azure dirge]

Could also just be weaver architecture.

[hushed yoke]

i know that the knight focuses soul and not void, but it feels very silly to suggest it wouldnt be able to "focus void" on some small scale without the godtuners, since the void is literally under its will. like, the void is its claimed domain by the sounds of it

i dont think it could have become shade lord on the radiance on its own of course, i still think the godtuners were necessary to draw out the shade lord. but i think it was only necessary on the spot.

the knight needs experience and time to grow imo. its potential as shade lord was recognized by the shade beast, and so i feel its only natural for that potential to be independent of the god seekers

so then how can shade lord be in silksong if it were post-DNM? i believe its simply because time had passed since Hollow Knight's events. it sounds perfectly reasonable to me that the one with the void under its will, the one recognized as lord of shades, can become more "lord of shade-y" with enough time spent in the void lmao. even moreso with the fact that the shade lord flashes into view rather than explicitly existing as the knight's default state or whatever, but then one can also make the assumption that the knight returns to its normal shade self when "unfocused" or whatever.

[rapid fractal]

i reckon phantom was a first try but didnt turn out like she wanted (she wears a mask to hideherface)so lace was the perfect child

[ebon silo]

Their architecture is very different I mean take a look at their hideouts

[azure dirge]

They also produced smog, which was pumped through the organ phantom was operating into bilewater and ducts.

[vernal idol]

What do you mean not enough silk? Because she was in the cocoon?

[pastel timber]

im not sure a regime change automatically comes with technology advancing, but given they wouldve needed metal for the music box its not a bad idea

[pastel timber]

the smog is assumedly silk or metalwork fumes

[azure dirge]

Yeah but these are abandoned so they could just be damaged and dilapidated.

[hushed yoke]

this isnt even me saying silksong is absolutely after DNM, im just saying the possibility of it being after DNM at all cant be ruled out

[lyric rose]

pillar grove

we all live in a pillar grove

[azure dirge]

Silk requires soul, GMS has limits, all higher beings do. Silk creations cost and take a lot of silk to maintain, we get told so at least. This is also why it can increase lifespan in bugs, and also why those bugs descendant succumb to the haunting as the threads have soul of their own within them and connect them to pharloom and GMS.

[lethal burrow]

it fits nicely for a story and timeline purposes that the change in eras would be represented through visual distinction

[pastel timber]

that is true, and i do like the idea

[azure dirge]

GMS seems to have needed to devour the weavers descendants for some reason, perhaps to regain her soul, maintain her current state, etc. she needs soul for silk.

GMS seems to be one of the weaker higher beings we’ve seen so far.

[rapid fractal]

is the mist just a product of the smog produced by the organ?

[silk dirge]

yes

[azure dirge]

Yes, and partially phantoms will it seems is what makes it disorienting and creates the wraiths.

[pastel timber]

she needed to bind their strength to restore her own

[azure dirge]

Yeah. We don’t know why her strength was waning so much tho.

[hushed yoke]

side note, i wonder what the hell is going on with the void as its own "realm" or "non-existant plane of reality"

like, did the knight and the siblings collectively notice some shit was going down when GMS and lace got dunked into the void and came to check it out?

[vernal idol]

As the supposed origin of silk itself (I believe), I thought GMS could just produce however much silk she wanted, and that spinning it from soul was just a weaver limitation

[azure dirge]

I think GMS prolly got her soul from song or consuming her offspring.

[hushed yoke]

like "damn thats wil- OH SHIT IS THAT OUR SISTER???"

[pastel timber]

they could smell the huge soul cocoon being spun by a full on higher being from miles away like sharks smelling blood in water

[azure dirge]

No, GMS’s silk is filled with soul, and the weavers could use this same ability to create silk filled with soul as well.

Rather than spinning it from soul they spin it with soul to give it its unique properties.

[vernal idol]

Interesting, I didn't know that!

[pastel timber]

does it not say silk is spun from soul

[azure dirge]

That’s why the void crawls up all the silk too, all the void silk strands we see are the ones that spun and went down into pharloom since the beginning and were connected to GMS.

[edgy barn]

It does

[hushed yoke]

yeeeee

though it just also makes me wonder how the oblivion of void pools works.

kinda freaks me out to think that a small pond's worth of void still leads back to the entirety of "the void realm" or whatever

that or the bottom of the world is all void and all abyss areas are connected to it? sounds like some flat earth ice wall type shit lmfao

[rapid fractal]

hornet says to seemstress she can spin silk from soul

[vernal idol]

Btw, completely unrelated, but since we are talking of higher being, how did the Pale King die?

[ebon silo]

Has anyone figured out what character Eric barone voice acted?

[pastel timber]

silk is soul

[azure dirge]

Yeah, but the meaning is more like with. Because we see other forms of silk/fabric but those aren’t spun from soul.

[hushed yoke]

wrong reply?-

[rapid fractal]

wrong reply

[edgy barn]

Silk ≠ silk

[azure dirge]

Exactly.

[edgy nebula]

silkception

[pastel timber]

silk specifically in this universe is the magic stuff, everything else is just fabric no?

[azure dirge]

Weaver silk is at the very least all magical.

[vernal idol]

Because the void devours soul?

[pastel timber]

yes, cause its spun from soul

[azure dirge]

Is attracted to it at least.

[azure dirge]

Yup. Saying spun with soul means the same thing as from. Yk.

[vernal idol]

Maybe soul is connected to pale beings in the same way that essence is connected to the Radiance

[azure dirge]

I think void probably converts soul into regret.

[pastel timber]

really? im not in fabric circles but that feels like a very important distinction

[hushed yoke]

now i want a fangame where the knight is chillin in the void and dealing with all the mindfuckery of being in a space thats technically non-existent, and also with the void's general despair and edginess being a hassle to deal with (hence why it had to protect hornet by killing the void tendrils that were about to attack her)

[vernal idol]

I really should have paid more attention to the dialogues 😅

[azure dirge]

Saying from and with have some distinction but it’s not that big. Saying with can make more sense to some people, “I am making this with soul”.

[lethal burrow]

void

[elfin minnow]

https://youtu.be/b6Qa8Q9zTWU?si=Za2xvoO7c43DvUkp
why do some bosses still react/sing to the needolin when theyre not controlled by silk

[lethal burrow]

Like who?

[rapid fractal]

just the knight being fed up with allthe voids shit andhaving to sort it out like un untrained dog

[azure dirge]

Because silk is spun with soul it can resonate with the souls and wills of others.

It’s like a less powerful dream nail.

[vernal idol]

How? Because of his tampering with it? It would make sense, given how much he desecrated it 😅

[ebon silo]

I'm literally watching this exact video on my tv rn that's a cool coincidence

[lethal burrow]

that and void seeks out and consumes soul

[hushed yoke]

void entity: "and lo the shade lord appears, to patronize, to make a mockery of our torment! our freedom! our desire to crush the hopeless world beyond and all its fruitless liv-"

the knight: "bro i literally do not care."

[elfin minnow]

phantom, lace (cuz theyre made by silk), dream bosses cuz theyre in a dream, fourth chorus, second sentinel, garmond, and apprently crawfather

[vernal idol]

It didn't go for the Pale Lady though

[elfin minnow]

amd bell eater too, its not controlled by silk either

[lethal burrow]

Her house isn't on top of it

[azure dirge]

Pale lady was higher up and didn’t mess with it as much

[rapid fractal]

nor is she as much of a beacon to it

[elfin minnow]

how are the cogwork dancers haunted

[azure dirge]

Pale beings do have some resistance to the void, pale king just messed with it too much it seems and it eventually claimed him.

[limpid summit]

Constructs are haunted

[vernal idol]

Fair enough, guess the Pale King should have spent more budget on a house on the surface rather than sawblades 😂

[azure dirge]

They have a soul split between them.

[pastel timber]

a lot of these are being controlled by silk though
if they have the silk strands pointing to the cradle theyre haunted
of the bosses that arent (like garmond or trobbio) theyre just deciding to sing with you
no idea for the memory bosses

[elfin minnow]

and trobbio cuz hes doing it for the love of the game

[azure dirge]

Pale king was directly filling moulds with void

[elfin minnow]

fourth chorus and second sentinel also dont have those silk
prob cuz there are silkflies in them

[azure dirge]

Plus since the kingdom fell it would have filled him with regret and the void feeds on or is connected to regret.

[lethal burrow]

The soul of one relived in two forever now they stay apart, the princess green forever true the fallen land the two-joined heart

[pastel timber]

yeah pretty much

[edgy barn]

The memory bosses (Karmelita, Khann, Green Prince, Nyleth and First Sinner) don't stop to sing, the words just appear on screen

[azure dirge]

Like when the knight dies his stain is a regret, but that regret is also a shade. All the shades are regrets.

[rapid fractal]

why did he leave a guy in the lighthouse just to have the job of not pulling a lever,could he not have just sealed it

[azure dirge]

You are already inside a memory spun from silk.

[edgy barn]

Yes

[pastel timber]

how canon is the corpse retrieval system though

[azure dirge]

He did seal it.

[lethal burrow]

Steel soul is Canon in my heart

[azure dirge]

No clue, but the lore surrounding what they are is probably canon.

[pastel timber]

its gotta be surely

[elfin minnow]

what exactly is father of the flame
is it sentient

[lethal burrow]

There's a big wooden structure with a guy inside who's burning himself alive

[azure dirge]

Plus shades still exist outside of knights. We just get more context through knights shade.

[rapid fractal]

nick cage?

[pastel timber]

hunters journal says the guy inside is already dead no? its a cremation

[vernal idol]

I had no idea shades were "regrets"! I thought the Pale King had just filled the eggs that had his and the Pale Ladys offspring with void, and that the shades were the "souls" of the discarded vessels, who had failed to become pure vessels

[limpid summit]

Father of the Flame is the immolated remains of an old bug

[lethal burrow]

Then he's burning himself dead

[elfin minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/flight-reacts-gif-19008216

[limpid summit]

But they’re worshipping the Father not the bug itself

[edgy barn]

A totem dedicated to the deity the burning bugs worship that they built. Inside there are the remains of an old bug

[lethal burrow]

immaculate taste

[pastel timber]

thats true but jijis regrets talk refers to anyone dying, and not everyone leaves behind a shade

[hushed yoke]

what do you call it when you poison a wisp?

[limpid summit]

Deity gotta be NMH

[azure dirge]

Yeah they basically killed every child to make them vessels, and their souls basically were filled and replaced by regrets.

[hushed yoke]

a...

sick burn

[elfin minnow]

i wish they could expand on phantoms lore

[azure dirge]

True. But your sibling shades did. It also seems that it was required to create regret to make the vessels in the first place.

[limpid summit]

Void isn’t rly literally regrets

[vernal idol]

"And the parent of the year award goes to..." 😂

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, like why did Grant silk abandon her and how did she do that when she's like not awake?

[edgy barn]

Nightmare Heart? No thematic relation (no red fire is not a theme)

[azure dirge]

Nobody said that it was.

[limpid summit]

The Burning Bug dnd is so similar to the Grimmkin dnd it’s wild

[elfin minnow]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-bug-smart-the-pale-king-pale-king-gif-5731610762789034239

[limpid summit]

One of the only non haunted civilizations btw

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, what's string gonna do against fire?

[limpid summit]

I lowkey hope it’s not some kind of Grimm troupe tease leave that in HK

[pastel timber]

i suppose given how much the pale king regrets sacrificing his children calling them "regrets" as a synonym isnt too far fetched

[edgy barn]

I suppose they don't get strings when you play the needolin?

[azure dirge]

It’s like how soul and focus are connected alongside pale, void and regrets are connected. Lots of little connections like that.

[limpid summit]

Nope

[vernal idol]

Crust King counting the times I've died to the third gauntlet 😂

[elfin minnow]

if pale king was a bum ahh deadbeat father he wouldve saved his kingdom

[azure dirge]

Rather than just regrets I think it’s that they are connected to regret, might be how the void was channeled to some degree, like focus and soul.

[lethal burrow]

"ahh"?

[limpid summit]

Dancing, dancing, burn away!
Feed us, free us!
Live and die!

[magic isle]

What’s the verdict, sequel or prequel
1️⃣for Sequel
2️⃣for prequel

[azure dirge]

The pale king may have been consumed by the void because his regrets grew too large with the fall of the kingdom.

[elfin minnow]

they should remake hungry knight

[pastel timber]

im not too sure that the pale king feeling bad about sacrificing his children to the abyss affected whether the void seeped into the eggs

[rapid fractal]

literally cannot be a prequal

[limpid summit]

The pale king definitely felt bad about it

[pastel timber]

this feels reasonable though

[lethal burrow]

Did you see the secret ending where it all zooms out from the pale kings eye and he's just using his foresight?

[azure dirge]

Not the king himself, but the regrets of the children themselves.

[vernal idol]

Well, he was willing to sacrifice all his children for it. "No cost too great". Iirc, as far as we know, it only didn't work because the Pure Vessel wasn't actually pure

[pastel timber]

i mean have you played the game it is 100% undeniably a sequel, theres absolutely zero way anyone can justify it being a prequel

[lethal burrow]

what do they regret? Dying?

[limpid summit]

His dream nail dialogue is initially “No cost too great” but it changes to “…”
He did think sacrificing his eggs and consigning his kid to eternal servitude was a bad thing to do and he was torn up about it

[azure dirge]

Like a lot of them died unfairly and were alive to experience it.

[limpid summit]

He didn’t die to void though

[rapid fractal]

that was a deepcut in the redmemory

[azure dirge]

Shrug. With how we got described regrets, that could be a part of it. Regret not being chosen, not being Hollowknight, regret the tragedy, regret being abandoned, etc.

[magic isle]

I’m talking to someone who thinks it’s neither

[vernal idol]

If not to void, then what?

[edgy barn]

Dancing, dancing, burn away!
Feed us, free us!
Live and die!
Burn bright! Burn hot!
Flare together!
To meet you... Father...

[lethal burrow]

"I regret you not being dead. Void go kick him in the balls"

[azure dirge]

Soul and focus cannot channel void so they had to use a different method, and regret is a method we have seen tied to shades already, and we have seen shades manifest from and with regret.

[limpid summit]

A common theory is that he just let himself fade away out of sadness

[pastel timber]

jiji's dialogue definitely sounds like the "regret" is that you died, but thats just cause your shade is tied to when you died in-game

[limpid summit]

But we can’t know for sure

[elfin minnow]

third team cherry game

[azure dirge]

The shades in the abyss are also vessels who have died.

[rapid fractal]

im not sure jiji is a void expert

[lethal burrow]

Let's talk about some more for the game that we're in the section to talk about now

[pastel timber]

so he mightve died to void depending on interpretation

[limpid summit]

Void is only regrets metaphorically, in the context of the dead kingdom and PK’s sacrifice
The siblings are just around cause of the imprints and it’s Void Heart that puts them to rest

[azure dirge]

We aren’t talking about that. Just the force and presence of regrets.

[azure dirge]

We aren’t saying void is regrets still.

[limpid summit]

Considering he doesn’t have the void leaking eyes and he was said to glow really bright ehh but it’s like not impossible

[azure dirge]

We are saying that regret can channel the void, like focus channels soul.

[limpid summit]

Regrets aren’t a tangible force in the context of the game

[azure dirge]

You don’t know that.

[limpid summit]

Regret is a theme of the game
Sula doesn’t channel void out of regret

[vernal idol]

Seems a tad more anticlimactic, after all he had done. Are there any evidences that point to that specifically?

[azure dirge]

Not all bugs can channel soul just because they focus.

[rapid fractal]

i think regrets makeyou more susceptable to voidand thats how it got the paleking

[lethal burrow]

sulamon wearing an onion hat

[ebon violet]

So, we know that Hornet's lifespan is so long that she generally can't find mates that she doesn't drastically outlive. What's the deal with the few characters from Hollow Knight who have been alive since Hallownest's fall? Are they divinely blessed in some way or just freaks of nature?

[azure dirge]

That’s what I was saying!

[limpid summit]

None but there’s evidence against void
And thematically it’s not anticlimactic at all this godlike being that lowered himself to rule bugs eternally dying a human death, broken, alone, in the ruins of his dead kingdom

[pastel timber]

yeah "focus" in the soul sense is a very specific ability that certain creatures can do due to the nature of their shells (shaman spirals or vessel divine shells)

[feral inlet]

Hornets father is legit mythical being so hornet is kinda demigod type bug

[rapid fractal]

when the knight uses the void i dont think he isusing itby channeling his regrets as its not likely he has any

[vernal idol]

What's the evidence against void?

[ebon violet]

Yes, but I'm asking about characters like Ogrim and Quirrel

[limpid summit]

No void leaking out of the eyes and he was described as very bright

[cloud mesa]

sequel with prequel bits

[azure dirge]

Or wyrms and similar such. Pale beings. Not everything can control these things, though they may have regret and soul despite not being able to channel either. Most things can also have void seep into them to some extent it seems from SK.

[limpid summit]

A simple lighthouse quells the sea of void, light from a higher being would render it inert

[pastel timber]

once quirrels magic mask dissolves he sounds much older immediately and then goes and dies, ogrim is magic or something

[rapid fractal]

you pull out lantern in the throne room

[limpid summit]

Because he’s already dead

[cloud mesa]

if they make a prequel i want like a 0.5 of a game

[vernal idol]

We don't know how long it was between the fall and the start of the game. The Crossroads aren't nearly as infected at the start of the game as they are by the end, so one could speculate that the Black Temple "leakage" is rather recent

[azure dirge]

The lighthouse probably uses a light similar to the everblooms light to quell it.

[limpid summit]

Uh huh

[edgy barn]

The lighthouse uses lumaflies

[pastel timber]

"light from a higher being would render it inert" except for the two higher beings, one specifically linked to light, that get absolutely annihilated by it?

[rapid fractal]

all the kingsmolds around him are deadis it possible the void escaped and killed him?

[azure dirge]

Lumaflies are interesting creatures. One does dispel the ward on hornets cage.

[ebon violet]

Seeing as the Infected Crossroads appears as soon as you kill your first dreamer, it might be weakening the seal that allowed the leakage. That or it's just to make the game world more interesting and isnt meant to have lore implications

[vernal idol]

Maybe he committed void seppuku?

[cloud mesa]

i want like a hollow knight arkham origins situation

[silver spire]

chat whats the lore of what the marrow is

[pastel timber]

lots of dead bodies

[limpid summit]

GMS is clearly shown to stay alive within it she’s hanging on
And PK wasn’t submerged in a sea of void

[azure dirge]

Actually an interesting though. Kingsmolds aren’t supposed to die, so how did that happen?

[limpid summit]

The snare setter draws void directly on top of her

[pastel timber]

no but radiance was, and gms is said to be in her "death throes" its clearly not inert its killing her

[silver spire]

that's true in the case of void given form, aka the void tendrils which are not in unity

[azure dirge]

GMS was eventually going to die and was expending all her soul to make a cocoon of soul out of silk, and pale king constantly exposed himself to it willingly.

[limpid summit]

The imprint in his workshop says “Serve” they may have deactivated once he passed

[vernal idol]

It could also be, but we also se that Bretta and Sly seem to be just be starting to get infected, but we save them before they are. It wouldn't make sense for them to just be there in the middle of it all like it was nothing if it wasn't a somewhat recent thing

[edgy barn]

That was not a lumafly. There are two similar bugs in Silksong which are gleamflies and silkflies

[silver spire]

but with void given focus, or in overwhelming amounts, light would have no impact on void masses given form

[barren beacon]

Is the Knight now in Pharloom's abyss, or did it go back to hallownest's after The Sister of teh void ending

[azure dirge]

That’s possible. Though nothing indicates they would.

[rapid fractal]

but others stayed alive

[limpid summit]

Different imprints judging by their DND

“Defend” “Kill”

[azure dirge]

Oh interesting. Was it a gleamfly then?

[rapid fractal]

only the ones by himandthe one outside are dead

[azure dirge]

Who knows

[limpid summit]

Yes Pale King died before VGF came into being

[edgy barn]

Neither of those would have been near PK tho.

[barren beacon]

Damn

[rapid fractal]

and the one outsideis connected tovoid tendrals

[pastel timber]

pale king died by void
evidence for:

• void is "the power opposed", clearly dangerous to pale beings
• he's surrounded by void constantly
• theres void very close to his throne room acting strangely
  evidence against:
• he couldve quelled it with his divine light
• his grief mightve killed him

[vernal idol]

I think the void is a singular, interconnected thing. Maybe even metaphysical to some degree. The abyss seems to just be the way the bug world connects to it

[azure dirge]

He might have just let the void kill him in his grief too.

[rapid fractal]

youre forgetting he clearly transformed again and is maskmaker

[azure dirge]

The abyss chargers are everywhere as Hornet points out

[limpid summit]

Every single corpse we see exposed to void has void leaking out of them (LKB, retainers)

With this very significant character’s death I think they’d clearly indicate if void killed him

[barren beacon]

It's so odd the one thing hornet fears (at least in the journal) is the thing that sucks you in the abyss, I forgor it's name

[vernal idol]

Abyss charger?

[azure dirge]

The tiny little abyss bugs that crawl along the walls

[rapid fractal]

shadow creepers?

[vernal idol]

The void tendrils?

[limpid summit]

And void is the power opposed to Rad specifically

[azure dirge]

Yeah, sorry mixed them up with the bigger one

[barren beacon]

No the thing that comes out of that big bug in the abyss, lemme search it

[azure dirge]

Could be opposed to both.

[limpid summit]

Well it is

[vernal idol]

Aren't they just in the abyss are?

[barren beacon]

Gloomsac, that

[limpid summit]

In the context of that dialogue PK says it’s opposed to Rad, then pivots to it being opposed to him because it could “deny Time” and outlive his Kingdom
That’s why he makes the molds

[azure dirge]

This technically isn’t the first pale king’s corpse we’ve found. He could be alive somehow.

[rapid fractal]

your is the power opposed, directed at the PK

[silver spire]

PK just pissed off from regret

[limpid summit]

Specifically that line talks about Rad

[rapid fractal]

no

[azure dirge]

Yeah. Hornet implies the abyss is everywhere if you go deep enough, and those bugs will be there too regardless. Which is interesting. They also don’t eat, drink, or anything. They just move mindlessly.

[vernal idol]

The ones that fly around and follow you?

[limpid summit]

With GMS we know that it sort of messed with pale beings in general
But the dialogue goes “Void yours is the power opposed (to Rad) BUT it could deny Time (opposing PK”
He wouldn’t say “but” unless it was opposing something other than himself

[barren beacon]

yeah that

[vernal idol]

So would that corroborate that the abyss is everywhere if you just dig deep enough?

[limpid summit]

Maybe
Stands to reason

[vernal idol]

I certainly fear them, annoying little buggers 😅

[rapid fractal]

maybe its like oil deposits and all great civilisations build on top cuz we all love oil

thats gotta be it

[lyric rose]

The way they just.. die when you flail enough

[ebon silo]

Her lore is pretty damn deep for a just a chef

[lyric rose]

It’s weird. Are they even life forms? Or are they simply HEY LOOK ASS JIM

[vernal idol]

Team Cherry trying to give us an environmentally friendly message: they really are nice people! (Well, if you forget they designed Bilewater, at least 😂)

[barren beacon]

She was like, The Citdael's chef right?

[rapid fractal]

team cherry just had way too much fun

[vernal idol]

I just want to run to the bottom, I don't have the patient to kill them everytime I go back to the Abyss 😂

[eternal sigil]

I took the stuff about them to mean that Lugoli was a figure like, Anthony Bourdain or Gordon Ramsay, who either fell off the deep end on their own, was banished from the Citadel because they were purity spiraling, or both

[vernal idol]

"Let's give them a DS2 style runback: everyone loved those!"

[lyric rose]

iron passage

[vernal idol]

Frozen Outskirts ☠️

[lyric rose]

also known as ur mom

I was never into your mom, I stopped and couldn’t get through the Iron Passage

[vernal idol]

Jokes on you, my mom hasn't touched an iron in years 😂

[azure dirge]

Yeah

[vernal idol]

Makes sense then

Is there a name for their world? The one where Hallownest and Pharloom are? I feel like a name would facilitate lore discussions

[azure dirge]

no idear

[vernal idol]

Bummer

[rapid fractal]

time to make one

[ebon silo]

NEW GIF FOUND!!

[rapid fractal]

hollowgea

hollow earth isntbad but it would be confusing

[mint furnace]

They got into the illegal maggot trade

[safe torrent]

i know fourth chorus got trapped in the far fields by a pin, but how did it get down there in the first place?

something had to have sent it there and something had to drop a ton of rubble on it

[silk dirge]

it escaped from twelth architects workshop i think

[barren beacon]

Why does hornet never say shaw in ss

[naive lake]

she learned to stop slurring everyone

[manic pewter]

lots of ppl have been saying it got sent to kill the pinstress and she beat it up

[naive lake]

far fields too tight for big thing to move

[muted lantern]

iirc shaw is like a taunt/insult, and she stopped doing it because she seems to take less joy in battle, similar to why she doesn't laugh while fighting anymore either

[naive lake]

what growing old does to a mf

[manic pewter]

garama

[muted lantern]

gek du!

[naive lake]

i think garama is a more 𝓻𝓮𝓯𝓲𝓷𝓮𝓭 taunt than saying shaw

[muted lantern]

Poshanka

[naive lake]

that's a friendship thing

it doesn't increase your damage unlike normal taunt

[muted lantern]

it increases your ring damage

[naive lake]

the fuck?

[muted lantern]

Also its a warriors greeting so i imagine shed do it before engaging in battle too

[lethal burrow]

People need good things to come up with please

[limpid summit]

Those sure are pillars

[edgy nebula]

some of them are even engraved with men...

like some kinda..

[manic pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/jojo-bizarre-adventure-gif-11387564

[lyric rose]

What’s below?

Is it void all the way down?

Does the world eventually reach a core?

Is this the flag of Botswana?

[eternal sigil]

alright, been doing some thinking/musing on Weavers and Herrah

[lethal burrow]

oh?

[eternal sigil]

in game we have two examples of Weavers shown without masks:

• Widow: explicitly stated in the bestiary, also visibly obvious
• Herrah: her appearance in the Red Memory, as she muses whether Hornet will remember her face, before the mask

one of these is a heretic who has been mutilated and crippled in her Silk production, the other one is an outlier even among the Weavers of Hallownest for a number of reasons

Every other, even First Sinner, retains their mask (though FS' appears to be damaged)

I am basically wondering what the deal is with the Weaver mask-helmets, and I am wondering if they might be connected to the ability to skillfully use Silk

That or some element of the Weaver cultural mindset, methinks, and removing them is taboo for that reason

[sacred heath]

hey so what’s the deal with Skynx

[eternal sigil]

It is known that masks seem to have explicit effects, and benefits, on the mind and personality, as bugs use them to begin with, though they also have downsides. They focus the mind while restricting its freedom of personal direction

(iirc)

[manic pewter]

aw shit theyre out of order

[limpid summit]

Might be a Nosk

[limpid summit]

I can explain

[eternal sigil]

For one, Herrah not wearing one would make sense for her being at odds with the rest of her followers in the Red Memory, wanting Hornet to be her own person rather than to be a powerful being and quintessentially a Weaver

If the traditional Weaver mask also helps with Silk use, Herrah not using one might explain her title, "the Beast" - absent competent/precise Silk powers, she would rely more on brute strength in combat

[limpid summit]

Shapeshifter
Speaks in a stolen voice
Lack of Needolin dialogue mirrors Nosk’s lack of DND
Its name (Skynx) is just Styx with two letters from Nosk’s name in place of the t
You could say Skynx is smarter, but Nosk is definitely intelligent - it’s an ambush predator that manages to take a Devout down, it might not be able to communicate because it’s infected

[eternal sigil]

(Perhaps also regarding the mindset unfocusing versus other Weavers - maybe some negative connotations among them)

Also wondering if this maybe has something to do with the difficulty Weavers have in breeding, as even disregarding Dreamer Herrah, her physique is different from the rest we see in the Red Memory

[limpid summit]

What you’re proposing is pretty interesting

[lyric rose]

What is skynx

[manic pewter]

I wonder whether weavers have a queen similar to bees and thats what herrah is

[eternal sigil]

could also explain in part both how it is "painful" yet physically possible: they can have babies, but doing so means abandoning the height of their powers

[limpid summit]

In Steel Soul, instead of Styx, you can find an upside down head that talks to you

[lyric rose]

Wut

[eternal sigil]

(other Weaver progeny are known to exist given the Cradle cages)

[lyric rose]

Does this mean… NOSK IS BACK?

[eternal sigil]

yeah Skynx to me is pretty clearly a Nosk

[dry bridge]

there's also a room above styx (reachable with superjump) that shows a bunch of masks in a small silken room, Styx tries on different masks to roleplay

[eternal sigil]

I find it most curious that it doesn't attack Hornet at all. Perhaps it recognizes that she is beyond its abilities to take down?

[lyric rose]

HES BACK

[timber pond]

Well no, He "it" or whatever has multiple masks if you use silksoar under the web. The mask is influenceing his purpose

[limpid summit]

Skynx is not Styx

[timber pond]

IDK if nosk could do that

[muted lantern]

But nosks take the face of people you love why does it steal styxs face

[lyric rose]

I KNEW IT

[limpid summit]

Styx is a weird mask guy but Skynx is something completely different

[eternal sigil]

anyways yeah that is the extent of my thoughts on this matter

[lyric rose]

I KNEW HED RETURN

[limpid summit]

It’s not like Nosk probably can’t shapeshift that’s just a tactic it used
Might just be laying low in Styx’s form while it scopes the area out

[muted lantern]

My honest reaction

[eternal sigil]

people you love
Hornet's greatest simp

Could be either of:

• It took the most "convincing" option in Pharloom
• crackship confirmed 100% real

[limpid summit]

In steel soul she doesn’t meet Styx at all though

[dry bridge]

hey actually what's above the styx room in steel soul

[muted lantern]

Clearly Styx is hornets soulmate

[eternal sigil]

Soulmates 😻

[limpid summit]

It’s unfortunate that the game just sort of says yeah Herrah is a weaver without giving us any explanation about why she’s different at all

[eternal sigil]

(/s)

[limpid summit]

The mask might be representative of her uniqueness for all we know

[manic pewter]

is herrahs throne made of dead things

[limpid summit]

I think that’s more about the general nature of weavers as like artificial creatures effectively

[lyric rose]

I’m gonna guess that Styx got killed by Nosk, who assumed the disguise of Hornet, and then Nosk became Skynx to mimic Styx thinking it wasn’t a one-sided simping(???)

[limpid summit]

Likely

[lyric rose]

Maybe Styx stalks Hornet as a simp idk

And Nosk arrives to kill Styx between the start of Styx’s simp stalks and Hornet reaching Sinners Road

[eternal sigil]

It could also be that if Styx is just... like this, which is to say a very eligible bachelor to any possible mate, he is a good target to copy on the basis any Pharloom creature would already expect these antics from him

[edgy nebula]

my guess is skynx killed styx cause he failed to supply him with silkeaters

that or it wanted his face

[muted lantern]

styx is the deadbeat father of huntresses kids

he has a type

[lyric rose]

Should’ve fed silkeaters to the kids tbh

[sacred heath]

all that being said what the fuck is this

[edgy nebula]

very very likely styx's screams as he killed them

[eternal sigil]

imagine if in act 3 we got a redux of the "find Sherma!" Wish quest, but he had gotten imitated by a Nosk

[limpid summit]

Every piece of dialogue Skynx has is either something Hornet or Styx says except this one
What bobbit said

[lyric rose]

Or worse… imagine Zaza is following something after Lost Garmond fight….

And then… it’s Garmond… and BOOM, NOSK

[edgy nebula]

i'd die if we get a quest to track zaza and we find his corpse strung up in skynx's lair

[muted lantern]

we find nosk garmond smoking zaza

[lyric rose]

I think it’d be cooler if we found Zaza in the middle of being lured and we have to kill nosk to save him

[eternal sigil]

you track him into like, Bilehaven, or the depths of the Ducts, and suddenly an arena crops up with a bunch of dead Stillkin and duct monstrosities strung up

[edgy nebula]

atleast we know that mottled skarr solos the silksongverse, so we dont have to be scared of skynx

[muted lantern]

do we get a name for the skarr that upgrades the curveclaw?

[sacred heath]

imagine
you kill lost Garmond and carry on with your life
but later, while you’re running though fa fields or whatever
you hear it
“ZANZIBO!!!!”
you go running after it
and you find Garmond
but it’s not Garmond
that’s
not
garmond

[edgy nebula]

no

[eternal sigil]

this would be a beastly bit of dark humor but do a great job instilling rage in the player's heart to the creature

[muted lantern]

i was making a weed joke lol

[edgy nebula]

i assumed you were referring to skynx having him roasted above a fire like the fleas do with moorwing

[dry bridge]

no but they seem to be another mottled Skarr, which is interesting, given the three mottled skarr in the game seem to all be resistant to the haunting

[uncut holly]

Yknow I think The Weavers and GMS might actually have parallel to the Moths and the Radiance. The Moths got presumeably killed by proxy of the infection for trying to go against them even though they're their creations, just like the Weavers did with GMS.

[edgy nebula]

it's possible that theyre resistant due to them not being in the tribe anymore

[sacred heath]

wait the fleas fucking killed moorwing????

[muted lantern]

no but they roast its corpse when they move to where you killed moorwing

[edgy nebula]

no they just took his corpse, you see it on the back of their caravan in blasted steps/purified ducts and then they roast it during fotf

[sacred heath]

but what happens if you never kill moorwing…

[eternal sigil]

exactly

[dry bridge]

IIRC if fleas move to moorwing's usual spot the boss relocates to just outside of the bellway

[uncut holly]

Moorwing still lives if you didnt kill them, they get haunted and voided out in Act 3 though

[edgy nebula]

they still take it

[eternal sigil]

"Smoking zaza" can also mean smoking Zaza over a fire

like a ham or bacon or something

[edgy nebula]

way better runback

[muted lantern]

i just want the ralsei smoking a fat blunt meme but its garmond smoking zaza like a blunt

[uncut holly]

Its cool that Moorwing is just a giant one of those flying mice bugs, trained to hunt down people

[eternal sigil]

Zaza is a little blunt shaped

[sacred heath]

no
zaza smoking garmond

[muted lantern]

zaza smoking actual zaza

zaza is actually garmonds dealer

[sacred heath]

anyway we need more nosk shit in this game i think

[muted lantern]

nosk herrah

[sacred heath]

oh that’s fucked up

[muted lantern]

but the face is all wrong because hornet barely remembers her, so it has pk/white lady/vespas eyes

[dry bridge]

the fact that team cherry made Styx have the whole weird mask room that reveals he puts on different masks for different roles and then also put skynx in the game is interesting

[edgy nebula]

i wonder what styx's face looks like

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/rat-gif-3417245934051922481

styx is played by jack black in the silksong movie

[eternal sigil]

anyways this would be peak

[limpid summit]

I think it’s partly a red herring to make you guess Styx is suspicious and see what might be going on with him in Steel Soul
Like I fs expected him to have a diff mask and just buy silkeaters not be killed and replaced entirely

[eternal sigil]

maybe Styx is trying to hide his identity from the drug dealer

[edgy nebula]

this is styx's needolin dialogue in his cave btw

[eternal sigil]

and in steel soul it comes to collect because Styx loses his source of protection money (collapse of the Silk Eater market)

[muted lantern]

"styx, we need to cook" - huntreisenberg

hey this might be a dumb question but do lace and hornet ever actually learn eachothers name

[edgy nebula]

no

[muted lantern]

also in their dialogue does hornet or lace ever use contractions? (like i'm instead of i am, or couldn't instead of could not)

[limpid summit]

I don’t think so
Major characters especially old ones like Hornet tend to speak formally

[muted lantern]

thats what i thought

thank god i have a doc of all dialogue so i can cross reference for how characters speak, it just takes a while

[edgy nebula]

lace uses them on occasion

unsure about hornet though

[limpid summit]

Oh you’re right
Ig lace is a kid

[muted lantern]

shes a very verbose and generally well spoken kid but ye

[edgy nebula]

reading hornet's dialogue, she does use contractions aswell, but less often i think

[edgy nebula]

like, far less often

[muted lantern]

this reminds me of the undertale 10th anniversary stream where toby said he intentionally made toriel never use contractions

[edgy nebula]

okay im wrong, she seems to use them alot in hk but idk about in ss

[muted lantern]

in hk shes definitly being far less polite to ghost

[edgy nebula]

yeah, also probably cause she's younger

[muted lantern]

she laughs and taunts them cannonically, while trying to kill them, typical sibling behavior

[craggy smelt]

I don't know about that, she's still ancient by that point, having lived since before Hallownest's fall
I feel like even as an immortal demigod you're probably done maturing by the time you outlive your first civilization

[muted lantern]

I think the taunting and laughing while she fights was probably a coping mechanism considering her duty was to cut down her siblings for centuries while the kingdom crumbled around her, so she tried to find enjoyment in her task.

[eternal sigil]

not that I can tell; Lace exclusively uses "spider", Hornet almost exclusively "child"

[manic pewter]

I think yall will be pleased to know this is called RR_wall_butt in the files

[shut harness]

whats the story here folks?

[eternal sigil]

as for age and stuff, it is possible that Lace is chronologically younger, however her being mentally younger and indeed mentally stalled at a childlike state is hammered in fairly thoroughly both in dialogue and in more narrative text

[muted lantern]

both of them have a habit of just using the first descriptor that comes to mind when they meet someone, hornet just calls everyone the first thing she notices about them, for lace its her being a kid, for sentinel its their gilded visage, for the knight its them being a literal ghost of the past

[edgy nebula]

good to know tc has humer

[eternal sigil]

I see her as basically Peter Pan of Pharloom, but like, dark and twisted mwahahaha

and resentful of the situation rather than joyous

[muted lantern]

i agree, while i doubt theres bad intentions it definitly is strange so many people overlook the text of the game and see her as an adult

[manic pewter]

Bro rip to anyone wanting to make a skin mod for this game, the amount of images of hornet is crazy

[eternal sigil]

tbh I think like 80% of that is the shippers from pre-release being in denial

[muted lantern]

tc was like "draw my hornets"

[muted lantern]

finally someone else who understands

[normal pivot]

so like
did all weavers, including those in hallownest, originate from gms in pharloom

[muted lantern]

yes

[eternal sigil]

yes

weavers are an uplifted race/subspecies of Pharlid

[normal pivot]

is hornet's silk just special bc she's part weaver & part wyrm

[muted lantern]

the ones in hallownest fled pharloom, theres a secret room that shows a map of where the weavers were all fleeing to

[eternal sigil]

even the name "Pharlid" alludes to this (of Pharloom - Pharlid)

[normal pivot]

yeah i saw that room like yesterday

whats a pharlid again. those little annoying slashy guys?
yeah i dont look at the hunters journal names a lot lol i'm just like. ok i kill you

[feral inlet]

I assume her fast silk regen is part of that

[muted lantern]

they are the little slashy guys that walk on walls, and the ones that jump down on you slash and jump back up are also pharlids

[normal pivot]

i hate those guys

[muted lantern]

don't talk about hornets ancestors that way /j

[normal pivot]

youre rght i should be more respectful

[feral inlet]

Hornet was prob killing her like 47th cousin each time we slayed one of them

[eternal sigil]

it seems that this is partly due to her heritage from the Wyrm (this is implied somewhere in game but I can't remember where), and partly innate; the fact that it is hereditary at all seems to imply that GMS genetically altered the Weavers and/or her essence within them is heritable

[muted lantern]

nothings funnier to me than the fact that on a technical family tree level, lace is hornets aunt

[feral inlet]

So was phantom and look where that got them

[normal pivot]

phantom was like lace's sister from what i understand? Why did she get like, abandoned though

[manic pewter]

WAIT LMAO

[eternal sigil]

phantom is whatever you call a non-binary/genderless sibling of a parent

[feral inlet]

I assume gms only had enough silk for one of them

[normal pivot]

ok yeah sibling

[manic pewter]

They call these guys coral goomba

[eternal sigil]

I don't know if that even has an English term

[muted lantern]

auncle? made up word but i've seen it used

[eternal sigil]

unt? though auncle works

[feral inlet]

Idk, phantom was running low on silk or something just like the conductor in high halls iirc

[normal pivot]

unc

[eternal sigil]

Phantom is unc, this is known.

[muted lantern]

calling phantom unc is really funny

[feral inlet]

Phantom is OG

[normal pivot]

phantom loves to aura farm

[muted lantern]

also phantom pushes their mask up like a nerdy anime character with their glasses when they say something smart

[normal pivot]

does she like have to somewhat hold her mask in place? to stop it from falling off

[chrome atlas]

Phantom is Lace's (older?) sibling. Lace's journal entry implies she needs a lot of silk to be sustained, which Phantom didn't get. They're unravelling in the Exhaust Organ, and their needolin dialogue implies that they want to go out with a fight

[muted lantern]

their mask is like super damaged and they are rotting so it just gets loose i think

[normal pivot]

phantom is so cool

[manic pewter]

oh yes definitely, the journal entry mentions their "frayed form"

[feral inlet]

Phantom I think was created to prevent the connection between sinners road, bilewater and citadel, using the mist he creates, which disperses allowing quick access to citadel from road or bile after

[normal pivot]

they may be gray from age but the gray just adds to their aura

[feral inlet]

Yea which is why i hope if we get pantheons we get a version of phantom that’s not low on silk

[normal pivot]

that would be sick
phantom in her prime

[feral inlet]

Also a phantom and lace combined fight would be nice

[muted lantern]

we should get a lace 2 and gms combo fight

[feral inlet]

Idk if I can win that one chief 😭

[normal pivot]

LL and gms fight

[muted lantern]

gms is super easy so it would work pretty well i think

[chrome atlas]

(Just as an aside, the only pronouns we get for Phantom are they/them <3)

[feral inlet]

I found lace 2 easier than gms, I also found radiance hard for whatever reason but nkgm easier

I’m awful at enemies that just move and make you play dodge

[muted lantern]

agreed, although its unclear if lace calls them sister or not in that one memory, it could be the other way around.

[normal pivot]

gms acronym just makes me thinnk of like. grandmaster

[feral inlet]

Same man

Also was nyleth the thing that created all the grass in pharloom?

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-silksong-second-sentinel-senti-gif-10016499270778379464

this is a great reaction gif when you really gotta consider what someone said

[normal pivot]

second sentinel using scissors instead of two swords like a normal person

[eternal sigil]

Come to the Silken Family Reunion! Meet:

• The venerable family matriarch (simultaneously a helicopter parent, control freak, and the most godawful lazy deadbeat)
• The golden silken daughter of the family (dark triad Peter Pan, has no personal autonomy, hates everything)
• The neglected child who they keep in the basement shoveling coal (literally falling apart at the seams, yearns for a noble death)
• The rebellious daughter who is kept in a straightjacket in a dark corner of the house for speaking out (insane + enraged)
• The daughter who is kept crippled and forced to play music to entertain guests (keep them in the house)
• The rest of the family who GTFO of the house ages ago and never looked back
• The various house staff (entire family lines of indentured servants hooked on North Korea tier propaganda)

[feral inlet]

I just killed Seth and nyleth a few hours back, it felt like fighting grass variant lace protecting its own gms

[ebon silo]

Holy yapfest

[chrome atlas]

I believe that it's the other way around? If this is the needolin dialogue, then it came off to me like Phantom was venting to Lace about being made just to unravel

[muted lantern]

its hard to tell, it's not really made clear so i understand the differing takes on it, phantom seems to be in a tube or something? its a weird scene in general

[eternal sigil]

Pharloom makes the fucking Golden Lineage look functional

[normal pivot]

pharloom more like. far out of the loop

[feral inlet]

Honestly why was gms running out of silk, was it due to controlling more and more pilgrims?

[muted lantern]

she was running out?

[normal pivot]

i thought she just wanted hornet's silk for more power

[feral inlet]

Well phantom was low on silk no?

[chrome atlas]

I took it as Phantom being in front of a mirror, but I'd need to check it out again

[eternal sigil]

I think the Choir was running out of silk to keep GMS asleep and as they did this and she woke up slowly the Haunting was happening and getting worse

[feral inlet]

Ahh ok

[muted lantern]

if its a mirror then its lace looking into a mirror and seeing phantom

[eternal sigil]

basically when the Weavers abandoned ship they left the Choir in place to take the inevitable fall

[chrome atlas]

fug no you right, just checked the screenshot
looks like it's a weird tube

[eternal sigil]

which is kind of a dick move tbqh

[feral inlet]

Okay so essentially let me get this straight, gms produced the strings but the choir controls them? I’m confused tbh

[muted lantern]

but also its possible this scene happened a long time ago before phantom transitioned

[muted lantern]

choir harvested her thread while she was sleeping to use it to fuel their technology and life extending experiments. then as gms started rousing from her slumber she took control of the silk inside the beings (as the life extending expiriments meant injecting silk into basically every bug in pharloom until they all had some amount of it and passed down to their descendants like microplastics) and caused the haunting

[feral inlet]

Ahhh ok ok that explains why silk was deep in their shells for generations

[muted lantern]

ye its basically microplastics now

a character even describes it like how it permeates every part of creatures in pharloom

in their organs, their shells, everything

[feral inlet]

Yea

[muted lantern]

its basically if there was a god of plastic who controlled all plastic and so influenced us with the microplastics in us

[feral inlet]

Hahaha what if

[muted lantern]

this too is an allegory for capitalism

[feral inlet]

I know this underworks clearly showed us

[chrome atlas]

yeah yknow what i'm gonna try to get people to believe that as a conspiracy theory

[muted lantern]

grand mother plastic

[eternal sigil]

I don't entirely understand it yet, but it seems like

• GMS is the source of Silk
• Made the Weavers as her first followers/surrogate children
• Weavers got tired of being controlled autocratically by GMS and having her monitor them always, so they contrived a system to keep her asleep via silk and song
• Weavers invited the lower bugs who would become the Choir in as a new caste to inhabit and eventually rule the Citadel in their stead
• Weavers either GTFO or the ones remaining in Pharloom trying to resist GMS fade away with time (or do stuff like end up jailed)
• Citadel-based civilization in Pharloom thrives, subdues the rest of the place, becomes massively overreliant upon Silk
• The amount of silk in Pharloom wanes with the loss of the remaining Weavers
• Choir starts hunting down fractional Weaver descendants, GMS begins to stir from slumber
• eventually GMS wakes up, begins taking over direct control of Silk-addled bugs and their corpses (the Haunting)

could be wrong here, it isn't explained super clearly in game

[feral inlet]

Oooh no that’s a lot tyty

Also nyleth made shell wood right?

[eternal sigil]

it's all rather similar to Bloodborne's lore about the Healing Church and blood reliance

[muted lantern]

people say gms doesnt have enough character but honestly she literally haunts every aspect of the narrative (hehe)

[feral inlet]

She’s like big brother from 1984 which is even a further like theme play in to the capitalist feel imo

[eternal sigil]

I think that the corporatism seen in Pharloom is actually a byproduct of the Citadel system starting to break down for lack of Weavers to produce new silk and things

[graceful grail]

So, Sister Splinter is a WEAVER??

[quartz flicker]

If you talk to the Caretaker about setting the Snare for GMS while Cursed, is any of the dialogue different?

[graceful grail]

You need to do all wishes to set the snare I believe

[eternal sigil]

generally speaking, commercialization and corporatisms are byproducts of scarcity, and of supply and demand; Pharloom is existentially reliant upon something that has become a non-renewable resource, meaning that to make everything work, increasing amounts of work are required from the system and its constituent elements

[quartz flicker]

There are several wishes that can be skipped

[feral inlet]

Where were they even getting silk from without the weavers? Just gms?

[limpid summit]

You don’t have to do Greyroot’s curse to get Act 3

[quartz flicker]

like the Broodmother boss fight.

[limpid summit]

There’s actually special dialogue if you make it all the way to Lost Lace cursed she says “the parasite within me is averse to void I better get it out”

[feral inlet]

Broodmother was a fun homage to the grub mother

[limpid summit]

But to answer your question cyborg I genuinely dk

[eternal sigil]

so you start making serfs out of the bugs in the waterways of the Kingdom so they will catch remaining dregs of Silk waste to send above, you start putting anyone who manages to come to the Citadel to work in upkeeping the machinery of the place, you start charging the remaining wealthy bugs of the place for Silk to use for their own purposes, so on and so forth

[limpid summit]

The wiki doesn’t have anything from Caretaker so I don’t think so

[quartz flicker]

the wiki is probably missing a ton of stuff

[limpid summit]

Yeah but people have found most parasite interactions

[prisma jay]

So i know for sure I'm talking to someone and they are saying lace is a child i said i ask in here earlier if she was a child and i was told there is nothing that says she's a child so do we have any proof that she is a child or an adult?

[limpid summit]

Lace is a child in body and mind according to the caretaker

She’s likely long lived but she was created to be a child and may not grow naturally so she’s effectively still one

[quartz flicker]

Lace isn't even a bug. She is wholly a being of silk.

And she's actually super resilient

[muted lantern]

Here's my list:

Caretaker says she has the look of a child and a mind to match

Hornet calls her a child and is never corrected

Lace calls herself a child twice one in her needolin dialogue "a child.. too broken..."
And one above the abyss "what were you expecting? An ailing child and a silk starved beast?"
Lost laces entry (the non hornet part, which has always seemed to be pretty objective) calls her a silk spun child

She very much behaves childishly the whole game, feeling neglected and fearing hornet is going to replace her in her mother's eyes, throwing a fit and sabotaging GMS plan to kill hornet, her general lack of thought about her actions, not caring about dragging the world down.

She's definitely years wise, very old, however mentally and physically she looks and thinks like a child, some of these points on their own one might be able to think of other interpretationsbut all together the game paints a pretty clear picture that she's a kid.

It also narratively very much fits that GMS would want to make a child that could never outgrow her and would always rely on her

As others have said lace is very much like a darker take on like peter pan and Neverland in the sense of being a child forever.

Honestly i need to save the above list so i can use it instead of having to type up everything whenever this topic comes up lol

[eternal sigil]

the Lost Lace bestiary entry names her "Silk-spun child"

this is not just the characters in-setting, but the game itself calling her thus

[muted lantern]

to me this, the caretaker dialogue, and her calling herself an ailing child are the best points of evidence

[manic pewter]

ohhh i completely misunderstood those lines then lol

I thought it was child in the same way you would say "i am my mother's child" even if youre not a child

[muted lantern]

some of the lines could possibly be interpreted this way but the 3 above are the ones that cant really be.

at least it would be really a grammatically weird choice and a pretty big stretch

also like, hornet calls lace a child in the same way she calls gilly a child iirc, and gilly is literally a child

hornet isnt really one to try to apply demeaning nicknames they are usually just descriptors, like gilded one for example, ghost too, since they are basically a ghost

[eternal sigil]

there is more evidence of Lace being a child than there is for Sherma being a child, of all people

[muted lantern]

sherma being a grown ass man is the funniest possible thing to me

[eternal sigil]

Sherma is only ever called "little one" and literally sings like a young goober

But he is also physically short

[muted lantern]

hes pretty average sized for adult pilgrims

i like to think shakra thinks hornet is a child at first because shakras from a tribe of fucking amazonian giants

[manic pewter]

I mean sherma takes over as head of songclave which i dont think theyd give to a child when theres other pilgrims around

[muted lantern]

the boss baby

[eternal sigil]

I think the funniest pull in the game might be Shakra deciding apropos nothing that Hornet is a child because she is short

specifically, shorter... than Shakra, who is built like a giraffe

[chrome atlas]

as a tall mf with short friends i do the same thing

[muted lantern]

shakra seeing a woman who is taller than most of pharlooms populace "whos this fucking edgy teenager" to be fair tho hornet does have baby face syndrome considering chapel maiden also thinks shes a baby

[chrome atlas]

Nothing funnier than being like 'ok kid time to go to bed' to someone older than me just because I'm about the same size as Sister Splinter

[muted lantern]

how old hornet actually looks is a little confusing, because 2 characters mistake her for a kid, most of pharlooms populace seems to treat her as an adult tho, and nu calls her miss grown up

mask maker calls her old one but he can see peoples souls so he doesnt get a say in this matter

[manic pewter]

nuu is a young child tho and trust me, kids cannot guess ages

I'm 22 and studying to be a teacher i told some 12 year olds i was 35 and they believed me

[muted lantern]

LOL

[eternal sigil]

I am suspicious that it has to do with the size of eyes. Doesn't seem to be height specifically, see: Shakra's dead mentor is built like a dwarf

[muted lantern]

shakras mentor is sitting down, slouching, and still taller than hornet

[eternal sigil]

Ghost of Hallownest is also generally regarded as a kidlet by the community despite being nearly the same age as Hornet (if not more) because of proportions

[eternal sigil]

yeah and Shakra still looms above

[muted lantern]

yeah the vessels seem like their body doesnt grow unless it is purposly trained to like pv

so ghost still looks like a baby fresh from the egg, we don't really get any context on if they are an adult mentally

man hornet would have some really fucked up family reunions

[eternal sigil]

Who all calls her Old One from the outset? You bring up Chapel Maid calling her a child which is an interesting case, because iirc the Caretaker also calls her Old One (and can be the first person in game to do so)

I think the Shamans might be among the only beings who might be older than Hornet genuinely, depending on how their biology operates

[muted lantern]

true but caretaker clocks her as a pale being instantly too

then again, so does chapel maid? so maybe shes just being an ass

[eternal sigil]

well the Maid does have old lady energy tbh

[muted lantern]

caretaker does seem the youngest in personality and his size

[eternal sigil]

and might well be older than Hornet

[muted lantern]

real winners do drugs -hornet

[eternal sigil]

She is Caretaker's sister so unless there's some shittery going on then they are probably of approximate age parity, and both younger than Uncle Diogenes

[muted lantern]

also hornet cannonically can't get drunk

i chugged nectar for like 20 min and nothing, it would be very funny to see shakra get outdrank by what she considers to be a teenager

[eternal sigil]

try giving Hornet some caffeine, see what happens

[muted lantern]

Flea brew

[eternal sigil]

(Caffeine completely conks spiders off of their gourd)

it is absolutely debilitating to them

[muted lantern]

Drunk Shakra would bring me infinite joy
"Poh.. shank..a.." deafening ring clattering as she slams into the bar unconscious

It's a very funny mental image

[eternal sigil]

it's like that sound effect of a bunch of lead pipes being dropped, but with the ring clang sound effect

[chrome atlas]

there are three other rings on the bar counter, used as coasters

[muted lantern]

Shakra after witnessing child wielding needle drink the bug equivalent of a bottle of ever clear instead of water and not react at all

[craggy smelt]

lightweight shakra would be pretty funny, yeah

[muted lantern]

They were playing beer pong with the rings

[craggy smelt]

rounds of nectar at Halfway Home

[chrome atlas]

(where do we get Hornet being immune to drink from again?)

[muted lantern]

You can chug nectar as long as you want at halfway home and have no effects

It's funny to picture hornet just immune to being drunk because of her ancestry

Poison resistance maybe

[edgy nebula]

i wish we got a quest from mottled skarr or something

[craggy smelt]

Criege: Care for a drink, traveller? My nectar's got a kick that'll warm your shell in these sodden climes.
Hornet: Another time, perhaps. Among the few gifts of my birth, I find rare need for sustenance.

[muted lantern]

I love mottled skarr, sells a god tier charm, doesn't speak a comprehensible word to hornet, dies.

[edgy nebula]

he's like a wyrm, that's just his first form

[wispy phoenix]

always thought about this pretty random thing but phantom's face is a mask that she puts on right? Does she even have a face then or is it just a black blob as head

[edgy nebula]

presumably black face white eyes like lace

[muted lantern]

I think they started wearing a mask cus their face melted off

[edgy nebula]

you should be able to encounter him being attacked by the skarr stalkers and defeat them to save him

[muted lantern]

My personal headcanon is the mottled skarr scout will be the next ant queen, and that's actually who he was talking about in needolin digalogue

[wispy phoenix]

But underneath the masks is all black, I don't see white eyes, at least not through the eye holes

[edgy nebula]

it's for visual clarity

[muted lantern]

A true businessman

[edgy nebula]

also continues to sell you shit even after youve scared him

[muted lantern]

That charm is the best early game one, it was my crutch up to act 3

[edgy nebula]

i wonder how hornet and mottled skarr communicated on pricing

[robust wagon]

Charm? Do you mean tool

[muted lantern]

He just stared blankly until she gave him enough rosaries

[muted lantern]

Yes but I call them charms because when I hear tool I only think of red tools

[edgy nebula]

makes sense

it is sad how mottled skarr seems very sickly, he'd probably die even without the skarrs killing him

[graceful grail]

Sister Splinter is a Weaver and i have Proof

[muted lantern]

I think the mottled is just a skin condition, like that one that makes patches of people's skin lose color, because there's a mottled skarr scout who seems in fine health

[lethal burrow]

ok go on

[graceful grail]

Boom

[lethal burrow]

that is not proof 😭

[edgy nebula]

likely because theyre young or just havent gotten the brunt of the sickness yet

[graceful grail]

Sister, Spider, Bound to branch, obviously reffering to Sister Splinter

[robust wagon]

I thought the dark patches were so that non-haunted skarrs could identify each other

[muted lantern]

What about gurr the outcast

[chrome atlas]

None of the mottled ants are Haunted, fun fact

[muted lantern]

He's quite capable

[edgy nebula]

his needolin dialogue mentions a last hunt, possibly because of his age

[lethal burrow]

I think it's referring to the weavers above

[edgy nebula]

he's a trapper moreso than a fighter, aswell

[graceful grail]

Why is she sister splinter if she aint a sister

[edgy nebula]

nyleth is presumably the other sister

[lethal burrow]

most the Weavers start their messages with "sister, spider"

[graceful grail]

Bound to Branch. Who is Bound to branch - Sister Splinyer

[raw pewter]

Sisters of Battle are Weavers confirmed?

[graceful grail]

Sister of spiders

[wispy phoenix]

Should've called it Auntie splinter.🙏

[lethal burrow]

The one up top is also bound to branch.

also, why doesn't splinter look like a weaver?

[graceful grail]

She was bound to branch obv

[muted lantern]

Does mottled skarrs needolin dialogue mention being sick or old?

[graceful grail]

Where did she come from then??

[raw pewter]

I think it mostly mention how they are still loyal to Karmelita

[muted lantern]

She seems to be the leader of the stick bug

[lethal burrow]

Sister splinter is just a big stick bug

[edgy nebula]

strength faded could be referring to either karmelita or him, he sounds and looks very sickly aswell

[chrome atlas]

Just grabbing the wiki info (this is from Mottled Skarr themself)

[raw pewter]

I didn't know the stick bugs are the invasive species, thought they were part of the Shellwood's ecosystem

[edgy nebula]

he constantly clutches his side and his voicelines are strained, i think he coughs every now and then aswell

[muted lantern]

Hmm fair enough, I suppose it is a sickness

[edgy nebula]

it could also be unrelated, we don't have much evidence and either theory is coming to a conclusion

sister splinter mentions nyleth in her needolin dialogue, not by name but she couldnt be referring to anyone else

[graceful grail]

Whats this then?? Saying the weaver is sleeping and that her sisters are long gone

[quartz salmon]

Nyleth is the sleeping sister

[left rivet]

.... nuh uh thats the just the weaver shrine

[edgy nebula]

nyleth

[graceful grail]

sister S Plural

Multiple sisters

[edgy nebula]

perhaps shes referring to greyroot or some shit, idk

[raw pewter]

Actually that's interesting, I know you are trolling, but who are the other sister of Shellwood? Hmm curious curious

[left rivet]

huh... maybe their were more than one sentitent shellwood deity (so we have nyleth, the random weaver, and nyleth)

[graceful grail]

Rly, word for word??

[raw pewter]

-# This guy is most definitely trolling, I am 90% sure

[graceful grail]

Also, the weavers used to have bugs for their Meal 🥘??

[raw pewter]

Most bugs eat other bugs, so uh, yeah

[graceful grail]

Except hornet

[left rivet]

but most arent wild enough to do stuff like lugolis crimes

[edgy nebula]

i wonder why the ants invaded creige's basement

[normal pivot]

they wanted his sweet gamer juice

[chrome atlas]

booze

[raw pewter]

To get the aged nectar maybe? They do like sweet

[lethal burrow]

nyleth is just a big plant tbh

[graceful grail]

Also, hornets entire body counts as her shell? Not just her head??

[raw pewter]

Lugoli's crime is killing and cooking sentient bugs, no one would bats an eye if he kill and cook wild bugs

[graceful grail]

There seem to be alot of sentient Plants in Pharloom (one in Hollownest)

[lethal burrow]

i do wonder about the ancient ruins

[left rivet]

multiple u mean (the shooty plants the shrooms the flytraps etc)

[graceful grail]

Oh yeah, the bulbs in Greenpath that have drugs in them, right

Also, is there an Abyys under the ground everywhere, or just under Civilizations??

[edgy nebula]

shadow creepuh. aaw maan

[raw pewter]

I would assume it's just everywhere, kinda like the Earth's Crust it's just way deep underground

[edgy nebula]

got our pickaxe swingin from side to side, side side, to side

[graceful grail]

So, is this fluffy stuff in the weavers head and it unfurls when it is removed??

[edgy nebula]

widow is wearing it as a face covering, to my knowledge

[graceful grail]

I could guess why

I hope we get some widow history in a dlc so we know why she got this treatment and what actually was done to her….

[ivory lantern]

is garmond fucking dead in act 3 or is he sleeping for a really long time

[subtle plaza]

I think he's fucking dead :(

[edgy nebula]

dead, i think

[chrome atlas]

bro's dead

[ivory lantern]

😨

[graceful grail]

I thought you could save him from the void???

[subtle plaza]

I'm pretty sure he just dies. Hornet explicitly mentions this iirc

[chrome atlas]

You gotta destroy every void heart within 30 minutes of starting act 3 to save him
||nah, garmond's doomed if you get into act 3||

[graceful grail]

But zaza brought me to him and i saved him. 😢

[ivory lantern]

zaza makes it the scene 100x sadder.

the little bug also makes it sadder

[subtle plaza]

:(

[azure dirge]

techncially there are tunnels from hunters march into halfway homes basement

[dapper willow]

isnt it interesting how all the higher beings are somehow secretive and isolated from the regular bugs of the kingdom?
The white lady is in her cocoon
Pale king rarely showed himself in public
Unn hides in her lake
Radiance is in the dream world
The nightmare heart hides behind grimm
Grandma is stuck in a big spool

[azure dirge]

Originally pale king is a huge wyrm which would make communing with bugs difficult

[dapper willow]

this is interesting too
I wish team cherry expanded hunter's march
There is so much room to do so like darn

[ivory lantern]

yeah i feels like you were outside of the nest the whole time

[azure dirge]

I'd argue the less secretive ones are usually more harmful. Lifeblood is often directly present and warps both flesh and shell, radiance spreads across minds and devours them, GMS silk is imbibed by bugs linking them into her web subtly influencing their wills and choices.

Nightmare heart invites you to a festival even and to partake in ending the flames of a kingdom.

[dapper willow]

We never got to see like an ant city or someth
ing
Its kind of a letdown
The ants just exist around the map without a place to be

[azure dirge]

I think it's because their civilization kinda broke down from the haunting and citadel choking them out.

[dapper willow]

Actually the citadel left them alone I think
Unlike verdania

[azure dirge]

Karmelita also wasn't doing very good. The Skarr also had their legacy beginning to fade like the other hearts, they were just the least faded.

[azure dirge]

The citadel affected everyone™

It wasn't even entirely purposeful I think, it was just a result of the way they lived.

They choked out a lot of the waters with pollution. Ultimately their way of life even claimed themselves.

[dapper willow]

karmelita was getting old
She lived a long time thats for sure

[azure dirge]

Shellwood was only fine because I think Nyleth is basically supporting the entire thing and that's why her flowers are growing everywhere.

The grey root curse might also be partly responsible, or it could be threatening shellwood entirely. It seems to be amicable to the pollution considering where you find the child.

[hidden crater]

I wish we get the option to take zaza to our bellhome

[azure dirge]

omg, that would be awesome

[lethal burrow]

there, i made it presentable.

[hidden crater]

Escourt zaza to bellhart except you cant take bellways (just so you dont cheese it)

[azure dirge]

It seems like the citadel was actually trying to figure out ways to preserve the other habitats to some degree but kept failing. They completely failed in preserving Veridia and gave up on it in their logs, the karat heights ended up warped by their efforts, few things surviving.

[azure dirge]

Get hit n zaza runs away back to Gormand

[hidden crater]

oh god its delicate flower all over again

[azure dirge]

tbh not the worst run. There are worse courier quests.

[azure dirge]

rasher and courier quests were essentially that.

[dapper willow]

the pilgrims of before
before the citadel maybe
Its all just a guess

[azure dirge]

Its really old and dilapidated. Spans the entirety of pharloom though,

[dapper willow]

they had a different culture before the citadel subsumed it

[azure dirge]

There's a lot of groups in pharloom hard to say who, and a lot of the same group that changed entirely

[lethal burrow]

my current theory is that it's grandmother silk era stuff before the Weavers took over, but this is based on nothing but vibes so another answer would be welcome

[dapper willow]

would be nice to see where the pilgrims actually come from

[azure dirge]

Like ancient weavers versus citadel weavers and such, then pre weaver societies, post weavers, mid citadel, pre citadel.

[azure dirge]

Well most are just common born bugs it seems, and over time bugs left or migrated out of pharloom. leaving with weavers or otherwise for places like Hallownest.

Many weavers and their spawn left Pharloom alongside pilgrims and had chidlren

that's where modern pilgrims come from. They are those same bugs descendants being called by the silk passed down into their shells still connected to GMS

It seems like weavers were in a way not as connected to gms through that silk, making the silk more their own. Though there may still be some level of connection.

[echo trellis]

Nvm the phial is working again

[hidden crater]

Weird how weavers looked completely normal in the reveal trailer but now they look like they got turned into stone

[verbal laurel]

Guys just out of curiosity is lace gonna be the next hornet and like the main character in the next game (+7 more years lol)?

[craggy smelt]

I hope not

[molten python]

Pablo.

[craggy smelt]

(I don't really like Lace)

[azure dirge]

I mean if the rival of the previous game continues to be the main character, it’s not impossible.

[verbal laurel]

I mean she literally did everything hornet did to the knight

[azure dirge]

Mr Mushroom next game protag

[hidden crater]

yes

[craggy smelt]

but do you find her to be as endearing and interesting as Hornet was in the first game?

[verbal laurel]

Like lace helped hornet to take out the final boss same for hornet with the knight we had both to fight two times

[azure dirge]

Could be interesting if THK ends up as the next games protag. Could be either as a sequel or a prequel.

I actually like Lace.

[lethal burrow]

second sentinel 🗣️

(or a new character in a new part of the World completely would also be cool)

[craggy smelt]

yes

[azure dirge]

Second sentinel could be neat.

[verbal laurel]

Or because she did everything exactly like hornet team cherry wants us to think of it and to like be sure 100% about it to take out elder bug in the next game lol

[dapper willow]

I actually don't want second sentinel in a sequel

[azure dirge]

Tbh I don’t think any character can easily outdo Hornet or Knight. Those are tough characters to out compete. Maybe dlc will introduce another possible protag candidate.

[dapper willow]

I think shakra and lace are the best candidates

[lethal burrow]

any pertecyler reason?