sk-lore

[eternal sigil]

unclear, seemingly both

[steep talon]

Memory, but hearts seemingly gave it some zoust

[twin dragon]

The fact the the void entered the dream with the knight, and the knight seemingly needed to physically defend hornet from ancient void

[eternal sigil]

as in it seems that either White Lady as a memory has some kind of agency, or else she knows when she is in someone's memories and is able to basically take command of that memory and act with agency outside of time and space

probably Dream Realm bullshit

[barren beacon]

That would imply White lady can also manipulate Dream Realm, no? Are the memories in the Dream realm or is it something different

[eternal sigil]

she's a Pale being of extreme power in the Dream Realm (look at how she is in Godhome/Pantheon of Hallownest); it is quite possible

[steep talon]

Oh, if the knight is in dirtmouth and some bug fell in the void lake by accident, would knight be able to tell void to stop?

[barren beacon]

Also yeah, Why do the shamans die?

Was the Spell so hard to do they had to sacrifice themselves to see it through?

[steep talon]

They used their power, yeah

[eternal sigil]

I think they burnt enough power that either they straight up died, or at least knocked themselves into coma/dormancy

there are signs that snail shamans in HK did similar things (that giant empty shell you get the Howling Wraiths spell from in QG)

[steep talon]

Empty?

[eternal sigil]

overall this seems to have been a ludicrous amount of energy output with the intent of synthesizing a magic item apropos nothing using memories

[steep talon]

Howling wraith is the big, bearded one I think

[eternal sigil]

oh shit never noticed the slumped over shaman is still attached

[steep talon]

Yee

[eternal sigil]

In any case, I suspect this is what happened because the shells are all there and remain unbreakable

[barren beacon]

But we don't see their body

[eternal sigil]

if they were hollow I think they would be able to be shattered to establish/confirm "yeah they're gone Jim"

[lyric widget]

I didn't see you add this page, can you join the wiki's discord server maybe, we've been discussing lifeblood there for a while

[foggy fractal]

oh its Sumwan

hello

[barren beacon]

How the Coral ppl die off

[foggy fractal]

me

[lethal burrow]

it's assumed for lack of a better option

[lyric widget]

hi

[lethal burrow]

ye

[lyric widget]

btw someone earlier did create a plasmium page but it was empty and only said "Make the page, please" so it was deleted

[spare pendant]

that's hilarious

plasmium = lifeblood anyway

it's even referred to as such internally

(in some places)

[barren beacon]

Plasmium sounds goofier than lifeblood

It's even odder that Hornet actively calls it Plasmium in the Journal rather than lifeblood

[cedar owl]

creates page
"make the page, please"

[foggy fractal]

do we have any other dialogue like this one, where Hornet says that she'll leave Pharloom

Hornet: You sense it true, Sherma. I shall soon descend to the darkness below the kingdom and quell the source of Pharloom's rending.
Hornet: If that task is achieved, my future may take me far from Pharloom, but know I have faith that you will hold these bugs together, and see them prosper.

the title screen being the surface after sotv implies that Hornet and Lace leave but still wanted to see if there were more dialogue

[barren beacon]

Why does lace leave? Does she follow hornet like a puppy or something

[elfin minnow]

What bug is lace supposed to be. I know shes ||entirely made out of silk which makes her an artificial being|| but she looks out of place cuz she looks the most humanoid and has 0 bug like features/behaviour. Maybe thats why she hated herself

[edgy barn]

She doesn't, actually. That's the omniscient narrator, Hornet never referes to the substance by name on her in-universe notes

[foggy fractal]

we'll ig "my future may take me far from Pharloom" isn't confirmation that Hornet would leave right after

[foggy fractal]

how does Lace survive after GMS dies ?

[barren beacon]

Also is there any explanation as to why Styxx died in Steel soul other than Hornet was too late

[barren beacon]

Oh right She needs silk

I think lace would genuinely want to die though, At least that's what It seemed once she actively threw herself into the abyss just to spite GMS

[foggy fractal]

dw Hornet will be Lace's therapist

trust the vision

[barren beacon]

Nah I think lace dying would be the better character arc

[elfin minnow]

If i never knew of hk/silksong i wouldve never guessed lace was supposed to be a bug

[barren beacon]

She's made out of silk, created by GMS

[elfin minnow]

Yea i know
But still why is she more humanoid than bug in a bug world

[foggy fractal]

I mean the surface title screen imply that they leave together
plus Hornet goes through all that effort just to save her and Pharloom

[elfin minnow]

Why is she made that way

[barren beacon]

Hornet literally look like a stick figure.

[elfin minnow]

She still scuttles like a spider

But ive yet to see lace do something bug like

[barren beacon]

Isn't that thanks to the Architect's Tool?

[elfin minnow]

Idk if she can do it naturally or not

[foggy fractal]

I mean there are a lot of bugs that look humanoid, just part of Ari's designs
Hornet and Lace aren't even the most humanoid we got some characters such as Pure Vessel with actual hands, albeit with 4 fingers instead of 5

[edgy barn]

Lace is not a bug, what are you getting at?

[barren beacon]

Are there commands for SS related stuff yet

[elfin minnow]

No humans exist in the bug world (unless?) so what is she based off? Shes an artificial being but in a bug world id expect her to be based off a bug
Just my opinion

[foggy fractal]

not every design has to be based off of a real life bug

[edgy barn]

Many bugs have a humanoid/antropomorphic appearence

[elfin minnow]

I just think lace looks the most out of place

[severe siren]

Most human looking entity has to be GMS imo

[barren beacon]

And what about Phantom

[barren beacon]

She doesn't even have legs

[flint wadi]

isnt she referred to as one in hunters journal

[edgy barn]

agree

[severe siren]

She does but they’re uh
They’re sewing tools

[elfin minnow]

Lace gms and phantom look humanoid

I guess theyre based off gms

[edgy barn]

Hornet does call her that but she is probably using "bug" as in "people". Not the biological term

[barren beacon]

She calls her child

[severe siren]

Like its kinda uncanny

[foggy fractal]

Manic fencer who delights in battle.
A bug born entirely of thread. Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained. A fragile form of life, but life nonetheless.

[barren beacon]

Damn

[dim thistle]

Anyone else notice that ||GMS has 2 arms again|| at the end of the game? Is this an animation error or does anyone have any lore theories?

[agile coral]

whats going on in the wisp thicket?? it feels very out of place gameplay wise at least and i didnt really catch much lore at all

[foggy fractal]

I'm just gonna go ahead and say that Ari just forgot because there isn't really a statement being made lore wise here if she did have two arms

[flint wadi]

lace is about as ambiguous as hornet or like 50% of hk's cast

her visage is also funky and distinct in shapes to pass as being inspired from an insect

[spark valve]

There’s just a random fire cult there kind of not much to say about it

[severe siren]

Wisp thicket is what greymoor used to look like

[agile coral]

i might be misremembering but doesnt she look purely white during this entire moment? i feel as though something strange and silk related is happening to her here

[barren beacon]

Well her Lower body seems to be mostly gone, so maybe she's just focusing her silk into her upper body to give Hornet silk

And such she regenarted her arm

[foggy fractal]

its just to sell the affect that she's being absorbed

y'know so Hornet can do the silk soar

and get outta there

[severe siren]

Saving a god’s daughter simulator

[flint wadi]

game doesnt say that she needs sustaining only that shes fragile

[agile coral]

yeah but still i think its either just animation error or to do with the fact that all of her silk is being focused towards hornet (GMS's upper body)

[spark valve]

The journal entry says she needs sustaining

[agile coral]

good thing she has a friend in a red cloak that generates silk 🤑

[edgy barn]

it does say that she needs substaining, in the very journal entry you referenced earlier

[flint wadi]

huh

[foggy fractal]

Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained

from her journal entry

[flint wadi]

would have been, hypothetical
seems dubious to me

[spark valve]

[foggy fractal]

what

[flint wadi]

is she not sustained now

weird wording

[spark valve]

It’s framed that way because hornet thinks she’s dead after the fight

[foggy fractal]

yeah this dialogue is only revealed after the second fight

[barren beacon]

Could Hornet bind Lace like she does with First sinner and Widow

[spark valve]

Not because it’s a lie lol

[foggy fractal]

with y'know Lace just lying there

[edgy barn]

I suppose so, she probably doesn't want to tho.

[barren beacon]

To be honest it was very good acting

[flint wadi]

?? is it framed so though?? shes just lying there and lets hornet pass on

[agile coral]

do we have a strong idea on wtf a silk heart is

[barren beacon]

What do yall think Happens to Lace in Weaver Queen? She ded?

[foggy fractal]

I mean I thought she was dead

[severe siren]

The fight takes place in a field of flowers i thought she was dead and i was getting funeral vibes from her

[barren beacon]

I think it was meant to

[agile coral]

the only person who can play dead better than lace is trobbio

[flint wadi]

i thought she went back to her beauty sleep because she knew she couldnt do anything about hornet

[barren beacon]

Beauty Sleep? fuck she needs a bueaty sleep for

[foggy fractal]

I don't think TC would've thought of that second point, easiest thing to say is TC just forgot so I'll say that

[barren beacon]

😭

[spark valve]

Caretaker also said Hornet slew lace and Hornet doesn’t correct him

[foggy fractal]

oh cool

[agile coral]

yeah either way its inconsequential i guess

[flint wadi]

why was she sleeping prior to hornet arriving

[foggy fractal]

aura farm

[barren beacon]

I mean she can sleep for some reason

[agile coral]

camoflauge

[flint wadi]

yeah but like clearly she does that

[severe siren]

I shouldve known something was off anyway, phantom explodes but lace doesnt

[barren beacon]

Omg yall killing me 😭

Camouflage is actually so funny

[agile coral]

sure but also clearly hornet thought lace was dead

[agile coral]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/586931790208434203/1421591521794330687/image0.gif

[edgy barn]

Well, her mother is gone now, so depending on what actions Hornet took in her adventure she might just go hang out with Phantom if she still alive, or just go explore the world until she withers away from silk defficiency

[wintry prairie]

@barren beacon I mean based on true ending the vessels obviously remember at the very least

[barren beacon]

Yeah

[foggy fractal]

where does he say this btw

[wintry prairie]

And one could argue that they feel kindly towards hornet or they would have just left her there. It would have been very easy for them to not show up

[agile coral]

is it the general consensus that only the godhome shade lord ending and dream no more are canon to silksong sisters of the void

[flint wadi]

clearly? is it really

ill have to go back and see for myself cause all i remember lace 2 ending being is lace permitting hornet to access cradle and effectively giving up

[spark valve]

The ‘you’ve slain a marvel’ line

[foggy fractal]

yep

[spark valve]

‘Yours was life’

[agile coral]

i think it was around 50/50 on whether or not the PLAYER thought she died, but hornet certainly though she was gone

[foggy fractal]

I mean it seems to be pretty clear to all of us so

[edgy barn]

Yes. The other endings aren't possible without a convoluted series of unprovable off-screen events

[flint wadi]

not definite enough

[spark valve]

‘Child of the monarch, she claimed herself at the end’

Like this is just a reading issue

[edgy barn]

"Was"

[flint wadi]

is this silk and soul dialogue

[agile coral]

consider this
sisters of the void is a continuation of dream no more
and whenever (if?) we get our "boss rush", the final boss is lost lace but under control of a truly unified void (the shade lord from the godhome ending) instead of a regular void (dream no more)

[foggy fractal]

why would shade lord do that

[flint wadi]

dips

okay

[spark valve]

No

[flint wadi]

where is it coming from

[agile coral]

dawg idfk 😭 but if we get a boss rush surely there will be a lore reason for lost lace being stronger right

[spark valve]

The convo after fighting lace

[agile coral]

or maybe they wont do that in this game?

[spark valve]

Where hornet says she killed her because hornet thinks she killed her

[flint wadi]

she claimed herself at the end? she talks to lace in third person?

[foggy fractal]

Hornet:
Sir, I have opened the way above these halls, and bested the white knight that stood as guardian.
Child of the monarch, she claimed herself at the end, and her shell suggested it true, a being born purely from Silk woven tight.
That such a feat is possible... I have seen life woven from Silk before, but tiny, transient... Never like this...

Caretaker:
Aye, bellringer! You've slain a marvel indeed... Well, flawed marvel, at least.
One to keep far from she was, least for us mortal sorts. Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most. Even in its long silence, way 'fore you came and roused its ire.
Might'a seen herself this place's protector, keepin' it clean and quiet as she did. Course quiet meant most crossin' her path found a painful end from her pin.
I'd be sayin' thanks for the slaying, but with all the other husks now awoken and enraged, a bug's chances ain't grown by much.

[flint wadi]

ehere is this specific line coming from

[edgy barn]

That's assuming we get a stronger lost lace. I personally think that's a very bad idea

[coral wren]

Maybe you're right, silksong is a prequel, and the pale king is lace and hornets son

[spark valve]

Caretaker like I’ve already said

[flint wadi]

so it is silk and soul dialogue

[barren beacon]

How would this work

[foggy fractal]

its After defeating Lace at The Cradle, and having had either the Whiteward conversation or the more-than-9-Quest-Point conversation

[spark valve]

No it’s not

[agile coral]

awww cmon p5 is harder than anything in this game and if silksong is meant to be harder then give me an even harder final boss rush than p5

[left oyster]

Consider this:

Lost Grand Mother Silk

[barren beacon]

Absolute Lost Grand Mother Silk would go hard

[agile coral]

i feel like that would be the pure vessel of this game and then upgraded lost lace would be the new absrad

[barren beacon]

Why Lace

[edgy barn]

I'm not saying we shouldn't get an abs rad equivalent. I'm saying it shouldn't be Lace all over again

[left oyster]

Grand Mother Silk IS the radiance of silksong though

[flint wadi]

ok well i guess lace 2 ending was her fakeout death

[agile coral]

because shes the final boss?

[flint wadi]

really weird

[left oyster]

so is grand mother silk technically

[barren beacon]

Grand Mother Silk fits the spot better for the final boss of a Rush boss mode though

[edgy barn]

That would make it 4 versions of the same fight

[barren beacon]

Specially if they make her actually hard

[flint wadi]

ah, sure

[agile coral]

yeah but im saying like
gms is to the hollow knight as lost lace is to radiance (duh) so if we get a boss rush then lost lace+ would be the final fight

thematically gms is radiance 100%

[left oyster]

Absolute Mother Silk

[rain gate]

absolace

[barren beacon]

😭

[barren beacon]

Pure Lace

[edgy barn]

And I'm saying they shouldn't do that because a fourth Lace fight would get repetitive, TC can do better.

[crimson patio]

Obsolete is crazy

[barren beacon]

Fourth?

[agile coral]

if we got lost lace+ in boss rush then we'd have 4 laces

[foggy fractal]

first one in deep docks, second in cradle, third in abyss

[rain gate]

• Lace 1
• Lace 2
• Lost Lace
• theoretical fourth

[flint wadi]

theres no reason to itterate on lost lace its the most complete version of the fight already

plus most people agree gms could use a touchup

[crimson patio]

What’s next
Found Lace?

[flint wadi]

it would be more justified too

[foggy fractal]

FOUND LACE 🗣️

[left oyster]

Loster Lace

[barren beacon]

We don't even know what the Theorical Boss Rush would be

[foggy fractal]

Even more lost lace...

[rain gate]

loster lace

[flint wadi]

lostest lace

[barren beacon]

Probably wouldn't be godseekers again, so is there a reason to have stronger bosses?

[left oyster]

"YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO OBEY MEEEE"

The Seven Lace fights:

[barren beacon]

Lace is the Mascot of Silksong

[flint wadi]

in fucking unison

[left oyster]

Lost, Loster, yet Loster

[foggy fractal]

they could come up with new characters that serve the same function that godseeker and godhome did

[agile coral]

fighting GMS (or i guess whatever tf becomes of her) after an act 2 ending in the bossrush would actually be cool

[left oyster]

The lostness keeps growing

[rain gate]

wd lacer

[left oyster]

This Lace is fuckin laced bro

[flint wadi]

why did lace become a goner

[barren beacon]

Dead Lace

[left oyster]

Why did chara do this to lace

[barren beacon]

Gone Lace

[agile coral]

lorewise IDFK but i think stronger final bosses in the bossrush adds to that ultimate challenge thing going on

[lethal burrow]

• Lace 1
• Lace 2
• Lost Lace
• radahn again

[barren beacon]

True Lace

[crimson patio]

The next fight gonna be named Laceration at this point

[left oyster]

We don't need a fourth lace fight in the bossrush

It should be a buffed GMS fight

[barren beacon]

We love Lace in this chat

[edgy barn]

I don't

[flint wadi]

idk about godseeker but a gms refight could instead be framed through elegy of the deep

[barren beacon]

Dear god does my girl need a harder boss fight

[lethal burrow]

where she can stab you with her stinger

[flint wadi]

yes

[left oyster]

GMS fight where she actually uses silk in more than one attack

all attacks are 3 damage

🤑

[edgy barn]

GMS but she managed to eat all the weavers that she needed

[barren beacon]

Yeah sure, Make it as to having to defeat Lost Lace, and then just ignoring Lace entirely and beginning to play Elegy in the Deep In GMS's Face before the void comes in

[left oyster]

I don't think they're gonna do another absrad with the bossrush though
I don't expect a shade lord fight either, it should be something crazy

[flint wadi]

where and how doesnt have to be rigid as you described it, could be the cradle, and it would definitely require setup

[barren beacon]

Yes

[lethal burrow]

yes

-# ||like radahn again ||

[barren beacon]

I mean GMS silk technically was used by hornet to escape the abyss, so maybe she still has a bit of it inside of her?

[flint wadi]

this is of course if theyre not doing godmaster again

[barren beacon]

I mean they could but that'd genuinely be lazy

[void herald]

ngl im excited for when they released hollow kight: mushroom mellody starring mister mushroom

[edgy barn]

Hornet does bind GMS's severed arm to get the Pale Nails

[left oyster]

Pale King memory fight 🤑

FORGOTTEN FATHER

[barren beacon]

Yeah

[barren beacon]

Lost King

[lethal burrow]

naw i want silksong: steel sentinel where we play as second sentinel and do steel city stuff

[edgy barn]

There is no fight, is just a long parkour section on a timer.

[flint wadi]

i mean it would also be tradition, depends on how you look at it lol

silksong is less entirely new thing and moreso hk's mirror

[barren beacon]

Also is there a reason as to why Hornet appears with the Pale Robes in the WL Memory?

[left oyster]

it would make sense for any memory of PK to be fuzzy if he was distant from Hornet

[barren beacon]

Fair

[lethal burrow]

because she was wearing them

[left oyster]

"enter my white palace of whimsy and physical challenge"

"no father"

"500 buzzsaws"

"no dad"

[barren beacon]

Damn

[edgy barn]

She wored them while staying at the palace

[foggy fractal]

same reason as why she appeared as a baby, because that's what she looked like during those memories/moments

[barren beacon]

She looked good on them

[flint wadi]

but i wouldnt mind a new framing device around boss refights/boss rushes

[barren beacon]

I like the combination of colors

[left oyster]

I'm praying for a White Memory DLC where we get to explore more of Hornet's memories (official pale court fights???)

[flint wadi]

technically godmaster isnt really possible anymore

essence is never seen in pharloom

[barren beacon]

Omg Dryaa and Hornet sparring would be genuinely peak

[flint wadi]

so no dreams

[left oyster]

And in the White Memory she'd be always wearing the Pale Robes

Ari sentenced to making a new version of every Hornet sprite except it's all white

[flint wadi]

i dont want ss to lean into hallownest more than it has to personally

[left oyster]

ok but it would be sick as fuck

[vivid kernel]

imagine seeing hallownest revived

[barren beacon]

why

[left oyster]

Well i'd be satisfied with just white palace and maybe the hive (memory Vespa fight)

[barren beacon]

Vespa on her prime was probably strong as fuck

I think the only character that Hornet genuinely says can rival her was Karmelita right?

[left oyster]

That Hornet directly states it i'm pretty sure yes

[coral wren]

Lace gets hornet pregnant, hornet births the pale king

[flint wadi]

just my personal preference

i want pharloom refined as much as possible

[agile coral]

do you think for the boss rush we could get a duo GMS and lace fight or would that not work out

[agile coral]

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-ishowspeed-gif-1290931606264393136

[flint wadi]

thats sounds really fun actually

[coral wren]

The same way green prince births the traitor lord

[barren beacon]

Lace would be the one pregnant ngl

[fair tusk]

why did the haunting not affect the wild bugs?

[coral wren]

That works too

[agile coral]

only hallownest content should be strictly hronet related or like maaaaybe a bit about the knight because its important to the void

[barren beacon]

They're above

[flint wadi]

yeah thats fair

[agile coral]

duo fight where you can pick which Super Final Boss you have to fight by killing the other one first

[left oyster]

Wait getting to see Hornet's perspective of her fight with the Knight in Kingdom's Edge would be so sick

(It's a scripted loss even if you win)

[fair tusk]

wym, like the haunting didnt affect the wild ones because they are below the others?

[agile coral]

we could also get a fight with vespa or any of the pale court members

[flint wadi]

it has affected them, you get silk out of them

hunters journal also confirms that a lot of normally docile creatures are aggressive towards hornet because of it

[fair tusk]

i mean dead corpses being woven into life, ive never seen that happen to wild bugs

[left oyster]

Fights I'd like to see if we got to explore more of Hornet's memories:

• Memory Vespa
• Memory Pale King
• Memory Of Any Pale Court Member(s)
• Memory Knight

[vivid kernel]

TEAM CHERRY BLESS ME WITH MORE CUTSCENES AND MY LIFE IS YOURS

[flint wadi]

you rarely see wildlife husks in general actually, most remains in pharloom are husks of pilgrims or choir members

[agile coral]

i do think memory fights are suuuper possible because being able to access memories in act 3 seems like our only logical facet lore-wise to be refighting bosses

[barren beacon]

Winning against the knight would just be Hornet coping out about getting her ass beat twice

[flint wadi]

most if not all actually, thats probably why

[rain gate]

the ones in nameless town are stated not to be affected at all

[fair tusk]

nope, just the bugs who dont drop rosaries, thats what i mean by "wild"

[flint wadi]

theyre above gms, haunting seems to rely on their proximity to her

[fair tusk]

quirrel figth that was stated in the book would be insane

[agile coral]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1004168682064322670/1418673832734097409/20250919_133305.gif

[molten parcel]

the fact theres an arcane egg on the abyss on SS means the ancient civilization was also there

[flint wadi]

yeah shes like a puppet master

[agile coral]

i think more specifically GMS only has influence below her, as if the silk were literally being carried downwards via gravity

thats how it appears in the regular act 2 ending and whenever she activates combat arenas in the citadel

[fair tusk]

what causes the perpetual rain in greymoor?

CoT was the blue lake, but greymoor doesnt really have a reason

as far as im aware

[wanton finch]

sinners road an bilewater both have water in thier bottom, but that only reall covers half of greymoor

[limpid smelt]

Guys is the embrace the void white flower ending Canon to silksong?

[barren beacon]

I mean Embrace the void is, kind of

I dunno' about that variant

[flint wadi]

salt lake water which flows into bilewater which flows into sinners road which falls down greymoors caves

[flint wadi]

it can be canon

[limpid smelt]

I mean it's the only one that makes sense

[limpid smelt]

That or dream no more

[flint wadi]

dream no more also makes sense

so its two endings

[limpid smelt]

White flower is my pick

Ending 2 is the only one that CANNOT be Canon

[flint wadi]

theres no infestation because the crevices are tight enough to filter out muckmaggots

and greymoor caves are large and vertical enough to not allow anything that might fall down to survive

[velvet hatch]

GMS but she has hp

[barren beacon]

Damn

[acoustic holly]

Is the radiance a pale being?

[barren beacon]

How can A Weaver that has been stuck still for Lord knows how long, be able to tank more hits than ya

[barren beacon]

no she a dream higher being

[edgy barn]

You fight a memory of her, not her physical body.

[barren beacon]

Really?

[acoustic holly]

Is that different

[barren beacon]

Pale beings are like, another rank of Higher beings

[velvet hatch]

also is a better fight

[acoustic holly]

I’m wondering tho if they’re like stronger or anything

[velvet hatch]

i enjoyed gms's moveset but i thought she was gonna do some 3rd phase stuff with the finishing cutscene it was that fast 😭

[barren beacon]

To be fair First Sinner is kind of similar to widow

They even sound alike

[dusk harness]

It’s wild how Grand Mother Silk is canonically more like the Pale King than the Radiance or the Shade Lord with the whole pale being thing and all

[wanton finch]

i think she is like the radience or shade lord in that she is an emobodyment of silk, like radience is made out of essence or shade lord is made out of/emobdies the void

there isn't a possible non pale or non higher being version of what she is like wl and pk

[dusk harness]

Makes sense. I’m awfully curious about what other higher beings there are though. Like, someone pointed out how Mount Fay has sounds similar to the Crystal Peak’s singing. The Crystals in the Peak were singing with the Radiance’s voice, so I wonder if Cold or Ice is another thing in this world that has an embodiment

[barren beacon]

There were higher beings of Rain and Storms so.... Maybe

[wanton finch]

possibly, theres the deepnest king who may have been a higher being, theres unn, theres nyleth i think, we got the lifeblood creature, we possibly got the buig fungus guy in fungal core

[dusk harness]

The fact that they’re dead makes me so unreasonably sad like I wanted to square up with those guys

[barren beacon]

Bro wants problems

[fallow spindle]

the knight just wants to fight

[wanton finch]

also nightmare heart ofc

[dusk harness]

Aren’t you curious what a fight with them would look like

[barren beacon]

I mean it'd be like our fight with PK in HK. Beating a dead corpse into the ground

[wanton finch]

what do we think about he voltwyrm?

[barren beacon]

What dat

[wanton finch]

if you've 100% steel soul then you fought uit

the sands of karak zappy guy

[barren beacon]

Is it the Volt Thing at Voltnest? I forgor it's name

[dusk harness]

It looks more like a creature that manipulates the electricity of the brain coral area

[barren beacon]

Ooooh, That easy boss, mb

[dusk harness]

I hesitate to say it can even think lol

[wanton finch]

but it's a wyrm?

[left oyster]

when you realize hollow knight is just a story about a guy who had so much sex that it eventually saved not only one, but two kingdoms from tyrannical gods

[barren beacon]

Pale King Fucked

[dusk harness]

Technically its name is Voltvyrm.

[barren beacon]

everything up for GMS and The Radiance

[dusk harness]

So it’s a vyrm

[wanton finch]

oh

[barren beacon]

Oh that's why I was confused

[left oyster]

Never doubt the Wyrm's worm

[barren beacon]

😭 Stfu and never talk again bro

/j

[dusk harness]

What do we think about the shamans

[barren beacon]

They cool, Lore is good

[wanton finch]

any lore on it outside of the journal tho?

[wanton finch]

i think they're the remnants of the ancient civilization, they don't know where they come from and they have familial relationships, as well as a fixation with void

[dusk harness]

The weird part it me is in HK we touch one and its body becomes void and gives us shade soul, so are all shamans void creatures?

[wanton finch]

if so they are'nt constructs of void like the kingsmoulds, and they're not like the vessels either

[dusk harness]

Well, not explicitly I don’t think. The whole Voltnest seems to be a part of the coral area inspired or straight up being brain coral though, which has electrical properties. The vyrm itself is a “nest of worms” and it’s apparently barely sapient, but that phrasing makes me curious. Hope you don’t mind if I theorize a bit, but the whole area being based off Brain Coral lines up interestingly with the electricity aspect since information is communicated in brains via shocks and electrical signals. And in the Voltnest there are constantly charges going off sparks being made. This could be crazy and entirely inaccurate, but I think the Voltnest is the neural network of something massive, the electricity firing are thoughts or facts or information, brain stuff. The vyrm is a collection of worms that’s barely sapient, which is similar to a lot of parasites in the real world. So my theory is that the Voltvyrm is a parasite in this neural network brain of a higher being or maybe the Sands of Karak as a whole are alive in some way. The parasite learned to manipulate the electricity like brain parasites irl affect our thoughts.

[worldly vine]

shamans are bugs but they dont die of void poisoning

[dusk harness]

How do you think they get their shells

[worldly vine]

prolly homemade

or the shell just grows

since in silksong the shamans hide their shells instead of taking it off so its likely the shells are a part of their body

[rugged lotus]

Probably not but they do get left behind when the body deteriorates as seen after the red memory

[worldly vine]

snail shamans are normal snails but they dont die of void poisoning and the only part of their body that doesnt get affected by void is the shell

[lethal burrow]

PLEASE vespa official fight 🙏

(we know someone will mod it anyways)

[worldly vine]

ss modding when

[left oyster]

When SScarab drops

[silver spire]

guys do we think that red memory is in the dream realm

[left oyster]

No

[rugged lotus]

No

[left oyster]

it's a memory
completely different

[worldly vine]

its the webspace thing

[silver spire]

?!

[rugged lotus]

Yes it's within the soul of the bug

[silver spire]

yea but how would that transfer to a physical plane

[lethal burrow]

magic

[worldly vine]

yknow how whenever you enter king khan, karmelita, or the prince guys memorys theres webs

[rugged lotus]

It's in their mind but the dreams are separate from the mind

[silver spire]

ya, but here that doesnt happen

[lethal burrow]

simmer

[dusk harness]

Also wow I can’t believe I crafted a theory about the Voltvyrm of all things. Of all the lore in this game. All the opportunities. I theorize about that.

[worldly vine]

theres still webs all over the place and its named "red memory"

Im pretty sure its like a webspace of a persons memorys except it only shows what that person remembers the most of their past

[rugged lotus]

Think about it you can think of a image and that image is in ur mind but the flower comes into the physical world through the power of the 3 souls u gather

[silver spire]

man we could have just gotten the knight to get zemer to sh*t out another everbloom

[silver spire]

oh true, but then how do we get the hearts

[worldly vine]

good question i have no idea

[dusk harness]

Here’s a theory for you, Pale Beings are just being with connections to the soul. Pale King brought sapience to his people probably by focusing their souls with an innate aura. Silk in this world is just refined soul of weavers, and the White Lady obviously has something going on with the soul if she knows when we dreamnail her.

[rugged lotus]

She's, dead? I think

[silver spire]

and why do the three old leaders drop dead or their statue crumble

[dusk harness]

Because we cut their hearts out???

[worldly vine]

whitelady is also aware that shes in a memory when you go to collect the everbloom

[silver spire]

like green prince just straight up dies once we beat him in his dreams

[silver spire]

isnt it in a memory though, so shouldnt it have no effect

[worldly vine]

nyleth is a literal statue and king khan is a corpse

[rugged lotus]

Godhome way the battle itself makes the attunement and generates the heart as a manifestation of the soul of the creature

[wintry prairie]

You’re going into the past and ripping their hearts out. I’d imagine that impacts the present

[lethal burrow]

we get the hearts of them in the memory.

like the flower

a physical thing gotten from a memory

[rugged lotus]

I don't think it's time travel

[dusk harness]

I hesitate to say Nyleth is the statue, not much to indicate she would petrify like that. She was probably just buried underneath somewhere or decomposed so the shrine was built on her gravesite

[wintry prairie]

It seems to be in a way

It can’t be the dream realm

[lethal burrow]

its like ds2

[silver spire]

yea but i thought hte everbloom was attained through the power given by the old hearts

[lethal burrow]

ye

[worldly vine]

its a webspace of the persons memories, the memory it generates is what the person remembers the most of their past

[lethal burrow]

well, the memory was old and distant

for the flower

[wintry prairie]

Which is why it crumbled

[silver spire]

and also then, it doesn't match up with the other guys answer where it was attunement that brought hearts into existence

[worldly vine]

honestly its probably similar to how hornet brought the everbloom out of the red memory

[rugged lotus]

No it crumbles in the godhome ending as well it's power is limited

[lethal burrow]

its like the ashen mist heart

[wintry prairie]

It absorbs the void doesn’t it?

[worldly vine]

it repels void

[silver spire]

so basically elegy of the deep is a fourth wall breaking device used to literally grab any item out of someone's past

[vivid kernel]

How can we tell if a bug has succumbed to the haunting?

[silver spire]

repels teh void

[barren beacon]

Why does The Knight/Shade Lord/Lord of Shades have to slash the Void tendrils away to save hornet in Ending four

[rugged lotus]

No it's power is like the wreath of purity tool it can only handle so much

[lethal burrow]

no

[barren beacon]

Doesn't It control them?

[wintry prairie]

Trying to kill you

[silver spire]

true, he could have just called em off

[wintry prairie]

The void is chaotic

[barren beacon]

Aurafarming to impress lace is crazy

[barren beacon]

Yeah but it unified it, no?

[silver spire]

that was pre void heart though

the knight is void given focus 💀

[wintry prairie]

It’s very chaotic and it seems the shade lord can’t control it all

[barren beacon]

Your pfp flashes on screen for like 2 seconds though

[worldly vine]

think of it as hornet collecting the everbloom, its a similar process but it doesnt require a ritual to enter and collect the heart

[barren beacon]

Doesn't that go against what Shade lord is?

[dusk harness]

Actually yeah bro could have made them back off with a single thought bro really just wanted to look cool

[barren beacon]

Had to show off infront of Lace 😭

[rugged lotus]

The void itself is mindless and was acting without him at that time

[stone scroll]

What’s the lore behind the base ending?

[wintry prairie]

The shade lord is a higher being. I’m sure they have limits to what they can and can’t do

[lethal burrow]

repelling it where? a magnet repels another, that's the way.

[barren beacon]

I love how the answer that makes the most sense as of now is that the knight genuinely just wanted to aurafarm

[wintry prairie]

Hornet binds the power of GMS and becomes a being like her

[silver spire]

the shade lord is the god of gods, above that of GMS, Pale king, and radiance

[barren beacon]

But VGF shows up though

[wintry prairie]

That could also be the godseekers being the godseekers

[worldly vine]

it repels void by repelling it???

[barren beacon]

Yeah but It isn't just a higher being, They're the "God of Gods"

[edgy nebula]

lowkey maybe trobbio wouldve gotten an audience if he didnt block off his stage via gate

[dusk harness]

Hornet absorbs Grand Mother Silk’s power, becomes a higher being with her Weaver attributes brought out and the overflow of silk kills Pharloom below it looks like

[barren beacon]

Why did he even do that

[wintry prairie]

The godseekers call it that tho

[silver spire]

yes but it is miles more powerful than radiance, pale king, or GMS

[worldly vine]

unless your playing steel soul mode

[rugged lotus]

I think the knight was impure and had feelings for hornet and senced her through the void

[stone scroll]

Who shade lord?

[silver spire]

and void in the HK universe can be seen able to kill even the greatest of beings

[dusk harness]

HEY MY MAN WAS GETTING READY FOR HIS ONSTAGE DEBUT COSTUMES AND REHEARSALS TAKE TIME

[silver spire]

yes shade lord

[dusk harness]

Wait what

[wintry prairie]

It definitely is but the void is also miles more stronger than anything else

[edgy nebula]

no he wasnt! he had a poster and everything

[worldly vine]

tormented trobbio didnt even have an audience

[stone scroll]

Yeah checks out, the void eats higher beings for lunch

[worldly vine]

you get a different ending if your bind GMS in steel soul mode

[edgy nebula]

realistically i assume he blocked it off because its his STAGE, but there isnt any door for his audience to come in

[wintry prairie]

You do?

[dusk harness]

Seriously??) I didn’t know thst’

[worldly vine]

ye check youtube

[wintry prairie]

Not sure who even would tho. The citadel soldiers?

[silver spire]

able to pin down GMS, (personal theory) killed pale king in his DREAM, merked the heck out of radiance, i think its pretty safe to say that void, and in turn shade lord, is the god of gods, above every other being in the hk universe

[edgy nebula]

presumably, that or songclave survivors

[silver spire]

whici s ironic, bc its literally at the bottom of the world

[edgy nebula]

well pk was already dead

[wintry prairie]

The void is very strong but that doesn’t mean the shade lord can control it all

[worldly vine]

slightly off topic but tormented trobbio is a top 10 song

[lethal burrow]

no im asking IF its repels it where is the void repelled to?

[silver spire]

which brings up another part: what tf is the ancient civ?! theres similar structures in the HK abyss and silksong abyss until the place where the weavers stayed, even though theyre completely separate areas

[worldly vine]

away????

[silver spire]

he died in the white palace dream

otherwise how would he even get into that dream in the first place

[worldly vine]

death by void poisoning 🔥

[wintry prairie]

Not much is known. What is known is that they worshipped the void and darkness and had some knowledge of it

[silver spire]

secondly, the kingsmould corpse had LITERAL VOID STICKING OUT OF IT

DON'T BELIEVE ME? GO CHECK FOR URSELF

[wintry prairie]

They also contained stuff in the arcane eggs

[worldly vine]

void poisoning murking everyone BUT the snail shamans

[dusk harness]

I didn’t find anything different

[silver spire]

snail shamans are void fr fr

[silver spire]

yes but how far was their reach?!

[edgy nebula]

related to void yes, made of void? it is unclear

[wintry prairie]

Enough that they were able to use it somewhat

[silver spire]

the similar architecture between the two abyss place is notable, and it seems as if the extent of which they were able to harness the void in both areas was similar

[limpid summit]

That’s probably just cause it is void

[silver spire]

yea but why would there be void tendrils sticking out of it

it would just, yk, die

[wanton finch]

yeah including pk

[wintry prairie]

The ancient civ knew enough to harness the void somewhat and built infrastructure around it. My main theory is the void eventually killed them all

[silver spire]

ohh fair

[limpid summit]

Idk I don’t think void killed pk he doesn’t have the void eyes and he was described as being extremely bright

AC we don’t know how they died but that’s at least more likely for them

[silver spire]

wdym void eyes

i dont think him being snuffed out in the dream would affect his afterglow

[vagrant wadi]

@broken sparrow how

[ebon silo]

No matter how smart your ass is it doenst take a smart one to end their lives

[limpid summit]

Oh no no like physically shining

It hurt to look at him

[wintry prairie]

I think he died of regret more so than the void killing him

[limpid summit]

The corpses killed by void exposure often have void leaking out of them

[broken sparrow]

So the weavers (spider guys like herrah and hornet) originated from pharloom and some migrated to hallownest, there are also mentions of hallownest in ss
That's about it really

[limpid summit]

Yeah a common interpretation is that he just let himself die or something like that

He had nothing to live for

[silver spire]

oh fair thats true

[rapid fractal]

is herrah a weaver?

[wintry prairie]

Yes

[vagrant wadi]

oke lol thx

[rapid fractal]

hmmm

[silver spire]

but the room he was in is incredibly dark, the only dark area in the whole white palace, all the kingsmoulds there are dead, and there are void particles

[left oyster]

Coming up with a lot of lore for a bug kingdom is hard idk how team cherry does it

[limpid summit]

I think thematically ig it wouldn’t be nonsensical for him to die to void but it’s equally if not more thematic for this unknowable great being to just pass away filled with regret

But as far as like concrete actual evidence you got this regular old lighthouse that stops a sea of void

[sinful nimbus]

Hollow Knight doesn't have themes alas

[limpid summit]

PK wouldn’t even have to try

[sinful nimbus]

Void particles also aren't hostile anyway

[wintry prairie]

We know that regrets can stain an area according to jiji

[left oyster]

Higher Beings can die of old age seemingly especially Wyrms so

[silver spire]

im p sure jiji is talking about void when she says regrets, idk tho

[ebon silo]

Where is this in the lore

[normal pivot]

Why are weaver heads so gigantic
It feels like such a weird design choice

[rapid fractal]

we dont know enough about the void to say anything like that

[silver spire]

im not even sure on the lore of jiji, or the steel souls anyways

[lethal burrow]

but it doesn't though.

[left oyster]

The Wyrm went to Hallownest to die

[ebon silo]

wyrms...wyrms...

[left oyster]

(And reincarnate)

[sinful nimbus]

That's part of the lifecycle though

[lethal burrow]

yes but that doesn't mean old age, it could've been a choice

[ebon silo]

The wyrm went to a random area to die to seemingly make a civilization them wyrms have a tendency to make one

[limpid summit]

Bardoon says that was more of a transformation yeah

That dialogue just talks about the corpse to bug

[wintry prairie]

The void is connected to regrets in some way

[left oyster]

Well yeah but it's still a kind of death so it counts to me

[limpid summit]

PK never expects to really die

[ebon silo]

not by old age

[wintry prairie]

Hopefully a DLC will bring back the steele trio so we can get more lore on them

[left oyster]

White Lady also became blind probably due to old age

[silver spire]

so now there are TWO races born from higher beings that are now both extinct due to their creator being d e a d

moths, because we cooked up radiance in three separate endings

[limpid summit]

The steel lore we have currently is

[silver spire]

and weavers, because theyre incapable of boning and GMS is stuck 1000 feet under, currently cooked

[ebon silo]

moths are kinda happy that they're dead it's kinda their fault because they started it

[ebon silo]

Weavers still isn't fully extinct you still have hornet

[limpid summit]

The Steel Masters (who presumably live in the steel city) send steel constructs out with “vassals” to witness the fall of kingdoms (as if we don’t get enough of those factions)

[silver spire]

hornet's like half weaver, we don't count that i feel like

[limpid summit]

They seek chaos of some kind

[wintry prairie]

And possible survivors

[limpid summit]

And if a vassal strays then Sharpe and the steel assassins hunt them down

[rapid fractal]

i think regrets make someone more prone to being targeted by void and the enormous regret the PKhad shone like a beacon allowing the void to reach into the dream world and kill him

[sage creek]

the pale glaze hmmmmmm

[silver spire]

im pretty sure its implied that most if not all weavers are cooked

[ebon silo]

Half weaver is still weaver even in the red memory the weavers wanted hornet to prove herself to be more weaver than wyrm

[limpid summit]

Regrets and void aren’t rly inherently connected

[wintry prairie]

Yeah but you never know. There could easily be a couple left

[left oyster]

Me to the pale king because hes the goat

[wintry prairie]

GMS got a lot of the survivors tho

[sage creek]

TRUE - glory to hallownest

[rapid fractal]

idk about that

[limpid summit]

Partly it’s a game convenience to let Jiji noncanonically summon your shade, but it’s mostly a metaphor as void represents the skeletons in PK’s closet

[silver spire]

free benches? id live in his kingdom any day

[ebon silo]

There's a completely different context to this too

[limpid summit]

And the regret of the entire dead kingdom

[wintry prairie]

I don’t remember my glorious king charging 90 geo to take a rest

[left oyster]

This post has been verified by TRUE Hallownest patriots

[rapid fractal]

you never been to queens gardens

[ebon silo]

Queen's gardens is technically a tourist spot but sure

[rapid fractal]

cope

[wintry prairie]

Blame the queen

[ebon silo]

What can I even cope with🦌

[rapid fractal]

also ancient basin

[left oyster]

The toll benches in Hallownest might've been only due to the infection to aid in the quarantine (incentivizes not spending a long time in public spaces)

[ebon silo]

No I think you should deadass ban public spaces if your having a quarantine

Look at the UN in the first few months of the cough cough

[rapid fractal]

yeah but the PK didnt do a good job at anything

[left oyster]

Unless the Pale King could somehow get food delivered to the doorstep of every citizen that is impossible

[chrome atlas]

Toll benches were probably just a method of revenue generation

[silver spire]

fym, he legit created a kingdom that would have lasted forever if radiance didnt wake up

[left oyster]

https://tenor.com/view/deltarune-device-friend-friend-cat-blood-gif-4509231851280658706

[rapid fractal]

but he didnt

[barren beacon]

why is there suddenly so many PK defender's

[left oyster]

I have ALWAYS been a Hallownest patriot

Glory to the White Wyrm

[limpid summit]

Silksong tries to make you hate him while making everyone who’s not him look worse

But he’s lowkey always been the best

[rapid fractal]

the plae king killed millions of his children and then decided to bond with the one he kept alive dooming the kingdom

[silver spire]

yea, cuz he could totally account for an ancient god of light waking up and getting mad at her own race for not sucking her feathers

[rapid fractal]

foresight bro

[sinful nimbus]

This isn't implied

[silver spire]

tbh, most of those children were born to be not feeling, emotionless, etc.

[left oyster]

Pale King didnt even demand worship
Everyone who followed him did so out of their own accord

Also it's not his fault his foresight was dogshit

He wanted to use Void to stop time

[rapid fractal]

this is defo implied

[silver spire]

also foresight of wyrms is implied to be crappy

[sinful nimbus]

How

[rapid fractal]

path of pain

[sinful nimbus]

The Pale King preserved a memory of him and THK looking at eachother yes...

How this implies he doomed the kingdom by bonding with it I don't know

[wintry prairie]

Foresight in general is implied to be shit

[left oyster]

The Pale King only sucked at being a terrible father

[rapid fractal]

why would that be in the game other than to show that

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King characterization

Mind you this is an optional ultrahidden DLC cutscene

[limpid summit]

We can’t say whether he doomed the kingdom by bonding with THK but probably not because TK can do things that show it isn’t hollow without bonding with anyone

[left oyster]

It's the one thing that we can point towards being the "idea instilled"

It's pretty implied

[sinful nimbus]

There is no reason to believe this is the idea instilled

What idea is being instilled in this cutscene

[rapid fractal]

lovefor his father

[limpid summit]

It’s implied that they had a bond yes but there might not even have been an idea instilled

[left oyster]

Love

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

[rapid fractal]

anything along those lines

[limpid summit]

WL is straight up wrong in that same line she says we’re free of blemishes

[sinful nimbus]

Also read the idea instilled dialogue its being used as evidence that THK was always impure

Rather than her saying its what made THK impure

[left oyster]

"It was tarnished by an idea instilled." Word for word

[teal drift]

WL is unreliability incarnate. Demented lady.

[limpid summit]

I think what the PoP cutscene and PK’s larger THK bond are supposed to show was that PK was an unknowable deity ruler but there was also a profoundly human side to him

[rapid fractal]

this could apply like when he alsolooks backatthe knight in the abysscutscene

[sinful nimbus]

Read the entire dialogue

[limpid summit]

His dream nail dialogue is “No cost too great” but it then changes to “…” implying hesitation

[wintry prairie]

Let this be a lesson to not trust old people

[sinful nimbus]

"Its supposed strength was ill judged" implies it was never adequately judged ergo it was always impure

[rapid fractal]

tarnished is important tho

[limpid summit]

You can be born tarnished

[sinful nimbus]

The SUPPOSED strength is what was tarnished

It was their own supposition which was lost

Alternatively you could read "it" as the vessel

[chrome atlas]

foul tarnished, bear witness etc

[teal drift]

If the entire idea of your supposed pureness is rooted in a false notion, then you are born tarnished. Obv the white lady thought it happened later.

[sinful nimbus]

Either way the implication is that it was always impure and she's merely using the idea instilled as evidence for that notion

[rapid fractal]

the supposed strength was that the HK wouldstay pure andwould notbetarnished

[teal drift]

Whire lady was a vessel plan believer

[rapid fractal]

holy myspacebardoesnotwork

[teal drift]

Beta rnished

[left oyster]

I still believe THK and PK cared for eachother because of the THEMES

[limpid summit]

It’s not impossijle

[left oyster]

When the theory is COOL

COOL, too, is an acronym

It stands for Cohesive On Other Lore

[teal drift]

Also the hidden cutscene explicitly about that.

[sinful nimbus]

Sure but its not implied this doomed the kingdom or whatever

[limpid summit]

That’s also true

[sinful nimbus]

Its also not something you can extrapolate based off of Path of Pain

[limpid summit]

PK wouldn’t have been so foolish as to specifically doom his kingdom

[rapid fractal]

the kingdom was doomed by repressing the radiance

[limpid summit]

He likely thought that he might as well bond given the fact that THK may not have been hollow anyway

[sinful nimbus]

Indeed

[modest coyote]

Pale king did nothing wrong

[teal drift]

Tbh pk shoulda just 1v1d the radiance.

[modest coyote]

I’d vote for pale king a third time

[modest coyote]

Radiance is only beaten by void

[rapid fractal]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide

[limpid summit]

Only thing PK did wrong was not talking to the Weavers and sending any single great knight to solo GMS 🙏

[modest coyote]

His choices were infanticide or everyone dies

[sinful nimbus]

Vessels weren't infants

[teal drift]

Pk coulda just manned up and taken her

[modest coyote]

Vessels were infants

[rapid fractal]

errrr

[modest coyote]

And would have died

[rapid fractal]

died anyway

[teal drift]

Bro died anyway why not go out as an alpha

[sinful nimbus]

No they were killed before they were born in a way that was assumed to be painless

[limpid summit]

Pale King only would have attacked Rad if he knew he had a flawless plan to destroy her

[modest coyote]

I mean it’s definitely infanticide

[limpid summit]

He didn’t attack her so he acknowledged the chance that he would fail and his kingdom would be left leaderless

[sinful nimbus]

Either way it was a trolley problem

[steel socket]

I think I just made a crazy breakthrough, hornet from silksong is suspiciously similar to popular hk boss nosk. Could they be connected?

[teal drift]

Tbh babies are barely sentient anyways a little mass infanticide is pretty harmless.

[rapid fractal]

faxxxxxxxxxxx

[modest coyote]

What the fuck is wrong with you

[limpid summit]

In a vacuum pale king letting the vessels die was not a moral action but in the context of saving Hallownest for eternity it was far and away the right choice

[modest coyote]

Ok so we can just murder people in comas?

[sinful nimbus]

Thanks kirb

[modest coyote]

The whole point of hollowknight is that life has value

Inherent to any life is meaning

To try make a life without any meaning is literally impossible

[sinful nimbus]

Except slabflies I guess

[rapid fractal]

even zote?

wrong reply

[rugged lotus]

Good point

[modest coyote]

I’m not disagreeing with that

[limpid summit]

Ik ik

[teal drift]

Dont we do this to gms

[sinful nimbus]

And khaan

[modest coyote]

A very good arguement can be made about whether killing GMS was the right or wrong decision

[sinful nimbus]

It is

[modest coyote]

Trolly problem

[rugged lotus]

And kind of we do it the the skarsinger

[sinful nimbus]

Killing GMS is also a trolley problem

[wintry prairie]

She actively took control of people

[rapid fractal]

she seemedok with it

[teal drift]

I agree im broadly on board with killing gms being a bit amoral considering her story.

[graceful grail]

I bet Marrissa knew Karmaleta. Hope we findout soon.

[limpid summit]

No faction in SS is good

[teal drift]

We dont really know how active it was tbh. But theres no way to progress on that argument.

[limpid summit]

GMS was ridiculous the Weavers were evil the Citadel was ridiculously evil

[wintry prairie]

The citadel and GMS were pretty awful

[modest coyote]

Oh so the fleas are evil?

[limpid summit]

The Stilkin are peak

[modest coyote]

Unless we’re not counting them

[wintry prairie]

The fleas came from outside pharloom and are cute

[limpid summit]

No just the ruling factions

[modest coyote]

Stilkin are evil but they have motivation

[limpid summit]

The fleas are boss

[modest coyote]

I don’t think the ants are evil

[wintry prairie]

Yeah didn’t expect the weavers to be cartoonishly evil

[rugged lotus]

Why were the weavers evil

[teal drift]

The only evidence we have of gms being evil is lore tablets about weavers being scared of her, but we dont have examples of what she really did before being put to sleep.

[modest coyote]

Craws aren’t evil either

[sinful nimbus]

Even Hornet gets in on the evil action 🥀

[wintry prairie]

They decorate and make weapons with skulls

[limpid summit]

The weavers ate people

[modest coyote]

They’re spiders

[sinful nimbus]

They made the citadel

[wintry prairie]

Craws seem to be fine

[modest coyote]

So do the French?

[wintry prairie]

And the French are evil, your point?

[rugged lotus]

Really?

[graceful grail]

Fallen brethren, keep fighting

[limpid summit]

They sealed First Sinner for questioning their divine autocratic rule

[teal drift]

Morality semantic debates in my lore channel? More likely than you may think.

[modest coyote]

That’s stupid my point is using skulls does not indicate they were evil

[wintry prairie]

Well it seems GMS had her sealed

[chrome atlas]

they put that one fuckass trap on the way to the chapel of the beast, that's a cardinal sin

[sinful nimbus]

GMS was not in charge by then

[limpid summit]

The citadel and the slab by extension was post GMS

[rapid fractal]

they made me go through hunters march without dash

[modest coyote]

YOU MADE YOURSELF DO THAT

[limpid summit]

The weavers were the ones that sealed FS even thought it was GMS who she called a liar

[wintry prairie]

Wasn’t the rebellion to seal GMS after first sinner got locked up?

[rigid storm]

Can some one tell me or point me towards a video on explaining the base of the lore for ss? No spoilers Pls

[left oyster]

Fuck the trap, they locked a savage beastfly in the chapel

[teal drift]

I think nyleth and unn are probably the only 100% chill factions in the games tbh.

[limpid summit]

Because even though they hated GMS they saw themselves as divine because of her

[rare meteor]

that cage was made specifically to catch people who are too busy fuming from the boss to pay attention

[modest coyote]

tbh the weavers are probably more evil than GMS

[sinful nimbus]

No First Sinner's cell has the citadel icon

[wintry prairie]

So evil and egotistical asf

[rugged lotus]

The weavers aren't evil

[wintry prairie]

What other icon would there be tho?

[chrome atlas]

we're back in the fucking 'who sealed first sinner' building again

[sinful nimbus]

Or they wanted the bugs they were ruling to think so

[modest coyote]

Tbh it’s very likely GMS and weavers had very similar moral traits

[sinful nimbus]

Not a citadel one

[teal drift]

Weavers locked up gms and created the theocratic fascist citadel system.

[modest coyote]

Mask maker implies they are

[wintry prairie]

They contributed to the citadel and its systems which were pretty bad

[wintry prairie]

That’s a silly argument

[teal drift]

I think this is likely but we lack so much info 🙁

[edgy barn]

Isn't the Haunting evidence of GMS being evil? Even if you argue she didn't do it consciously (which I disagree with), the dialogue after the whiteward silk heart makes it pretty clear it was something she wanted to do.

[left oyster]

The Weavers MADE the citadel are we being fr

[rugged lotus]

They just started it and then left and the citidel went down it's own pasth

[rugged lotus]

How?

[wintry prairie]

They built the systems of the citadel and just put others in charge when they left

[sinful nimbus]

"We know the Citadel sealed First Sinner because their signature is on the cell" seems perfectly reasonable
Heck its a Citadel prison of course they were the ones who did it

[teal drift]

I think if youre a HB being forcibly kept in a coma, lashing out makes a lot of sense even if you take up victims in the process.

[left oyster]

The Weavers were the ones who started the doom religion thing
That is pretty bad

[wintry prairie]

GMS made the citadel did she not?

[sinful nimbus]

They built the Citadel in such a manner that it would put them specifically in charge and started a religion which made people view the weavers as divine and whatnot

[left oyster]

Kept in a coma because your children didnt wanna be slaves

[sinful nimbus]

No the Citadel is her prison

[rapid fractal]

not on her own

[modest coyote]

Well we have

1: GMS is a spider and specifically chose spiders to give enlightenment

2: GMS told those spiders they are her daughters and thus in her image

3: the weavers possess other similar characteristics to GMS (all female, infertile (mostly), control of silk))

[wintry prairie]

The citadel doesn’t seem to be an exclusive faction until they put GMS in a cage

[limpid summit]

In very very short
Grand Mother Silk a higher being uses silk to turn regular bugs into Weavers
At some point she loses interest in them and tries to create a daughter entirely of silk, her first one is a complete failure her second one requires tons of silk to sustain
The Weavers are angered and seal her, building the Citadel as a place of worship as well as her tomb
They rule as evil overlords for a while until a bug religion formed around the Citadel ousts them and kills a lot of them some flee to places like Hallownest
These bugs eventually want to become immortal and start experimenting with Silk to do it, this causes GMS to stir and start manipulating them, she sends them to hunt Weavers to get silk to wake her up and that’s where it begins

[teal drift]

We dont know the weavers had legitimate grievances against silk tbh. We just lack info on that era.

[wintry prairie]

She’s the silksong equivalent to PK isn’t she? A pale being ruling over a kingdom

[modest coyote]

Pale king is the Churchill to GMS Hitler

[wintry prairie]

She just got thrown in jail where PK didn’t

[sinful nimbus]

She was not in power of the citadel until the haunting happened

[teal drift]

I think its more than possible gms was evil to the weavers and enslaved them but all we have is the weavers word that she was bad news to them.

[rapid fractal]

i think the weavers made the citadel beleiving GMS was good and were following her then later learning the truth they fled and were hunteddown

[sinful nimbus]

Because the Citadel was specifically built to contain her

[rapid fractal]

no

[sinful nimbus]

Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule

[rapid fractal]

maybe

[limpid summit]

She woke up and turned her prison into her home base

[modest coyote]

I mean at minimum GMS is evil in the way radiance is evil

[rugged lotus]

Which the bugs in power of the citidel eventually messed up (chough chough witeward)

[edgy barn]

With the added of being a terrible mom

[obsidian quail]

i personally don’t think the Weavers imprisoned false sinner, my timeline is a bit different but i respect the other view and not going back and forth about it again

[wintry prairie]

GMS still took control of bugs and lied to the weavers face with a possible intent to control them also

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[teal drift]

I think evil and good arent that useful when discussing motives.

[rare meteor]

what is it with people in this universe trying to defeat gods that aren't really doing anything to them

[teal drift]

We cannot start FS rebellion discourse again.

[rare meteor]

it ALWAYS ends up being worse than doing nothing

[wintry prairie]

I was fully under the impression that first sinner was imprisoned by the citadel (controlled by GMS). After that the weavers and citadel bugs imprisoned GMS

[wild zinc]

Is hornet the youngest sibling?

[rare meteor]

oldest pretty sure

[sinful nimbus]

No way to know

[rugged lotus]

The radiance was enslaving bugs to a hive mind

[limpid summit]

I don’t think it’s suggested that the citadel bugs were even around when GMS got sealed

[rapid fractal]

first sinner would have been freed

[rugged lotus]

They weren't

[wintry prairie]

Pretty sure she’s the oldest

[limpid summit]

Because it was completely unknown to them that messing with silk in Whiteward would stir her

[rare meteor]

that's only after the whole Pale King thing, no? If the moths didn't make the conscious decision to abandon her it would've been fine

[wintry prairie]

Who’s to say they knew how or could?

[rare meteor]

Unn still has some worshippers and she's not complaining

[teal drift]

Tbf I think HBs are a commentary on power themselves. Everyone buckles against power that holds them down and claims moral vindication, but power is a concept tbat has no regard for them. GMS and her ilk are forces of nature more than individuals, which is why imprisoning gms failed horribly.

[rapid fractal]

it wasnt hardto get into

[wintry prairie]

For hornet

[rare meteor]

what's HB stand for again

[teal drift]

Higher being

[rugged lotus]

Ya the pale king gave them the gift of sentience Wich is much better

[edgy barn]

Higher being

[bold gazelle]

SIBLINGS

[rapid fractal]

is GMS a pale being?

[bold gazelle]

WE MUST ARISE

[wintry prairie]

I feel like radiance definitely was

[teal drift]

PK is a god who tried to be chill and human but it only made him vulnerable af.

[rugged lotus]

Yes

[wintry prairie]

Radiance doomed a kingdom because she could

[rugged lotus]

She gives the bugs of pharloom their minds(pale being trait)

[limpid summit]

GMS is a pale being because we’re told she’s a pale being

We can’t say any traits are conclusively pale being ones yet

[rugged lotus]

And she is also stated to be one

[limpid summit]

WL doesn’t do anything like that

[teal drift]

Shes also implied to be a wyrm from dialogue abt her pulling bugs to her thrall, but its not explicitly confirmed.

[rare meteor]

she doesn't really do anything to be fair

[limpid summit]

True

Bum

[wintry prairie]

GMS gets called a pale monarch like 6 times by main characters to the story. Definitely a pale being

[torn basalt]

This guy is the bone bottom shopkeep after you buy everything

[wintry prairie]

I thought he gets crushed by the rocks

[teal drift]

WL may be a pale being but tbh im not convinced shes a full god in the same way PK or GMS are. I think its possible that shes notably weaker than then AND its possible shes equal

[obsidian quail]

GMS is definitely not a wyrm

[limpid summit]

WL is not weak

[teal drift]

Awww i was waiting for someone to find this but im sad pebb dies 🙁

[obsidian quail]

but i think pale beings all have that quality too

[torn basalt]

is that the pilgrims rest shopkeep?

[wintry prairie]

White lady just seems like a weak being compared to PK and all others

[limpid summit]

We see her at her worst because she’s bound

[rugged lotus]

She's not a wyrm

[obsidian quail]

White Lady was self nerfed

[limpid summit]

Godseeker is amazed by her strength

[obsidian quail]

in her heyday she was something

[wintry prairie]

He also gets crushed but in act 3 the bone bottom shop is under 5 boulders

[limpid summit]

There’s a handful of stuff that she’s implied to have done

[rugged lotus]

Ya I think she did that 2 herself

[wintry prairie]

But I also didn’t buy everything from him so

[rare meteor]

iirc she purposefully nerfs herself by the time of the game to be less detectable, her full power is clearly held in high regard by the Godseeker

[rapid fractal]

no one knows enough baoutthe whitelady to comment on howstrong she is

[teal drift]

Provide counter evidence that gms is not a wyrm. Hornet uses the exact phrase “pulled into thrall” to describe GMS, i do t think thats a coincidence. Im not saying confirmed, just more than possible

[rugged lotus]

Besides godseeker

[torn basalt]

O true forgot about that detail tbh, but yeah this gy is just randomly here after you buyout the shop, is the only 3-hit (base nail) pilgrim with like 100 rosaries, and is the same sprite

[limpid summit]

Not everyone that pulls bugs into their thrall is a wyrm that’s just what wyrms do yknow

[torn basalt]

shows up once, only is killable once

[wintry prairie]

He does mention that he’s trying to get rosaries before the climb. Damn that’s tragic 😭

[teal drift]

I dont think its confirmed but its definitely a possible connection.

[limpid summit]

Yeah that’s pebb

[rugged lotus]

Ya pale beings do that the pale king was just also a wrym

[limpid summit]

Poor pebb

[teal drift]

Rip pebb.

[torn basalt]

it's like uhhh one sec

[wintry prairie]

Pebb sold me a key, rip pebb

[rare meteor]

could've sold it for cheaper, rip tho

[teal drift]

Real question: wtf did pebb do with all of our other rosaries.

[torn basalt]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/586931790208434203/1422011993522438274/SPOILER_image.png?ex=68db1f5e&is=68d9cdde&hm=4597ed715316cb7669e5b9e4bb972c4338a7e5f2d58e52bb42ae5f5b957640a7&

that's the fearful pilgrim in bone bottom bellway

[edgy barn]

It is both funny and tragic that he mentions how his climb is probably not going to be that harsh, then he doesn't even make it past the first area.

[teal drift]

Bro did not make it far.

[obsidian quail]

wyrms have no ties to silk, gms doesn’t look like a wyrm, she isn’t said to have any power of foresight, she isn’t called a wyrm, they say go to the kingdom of the white wyrm which to me makes a distinction as if GMS recognizes wyrms and she isn’t one

[teal drift]

That last one is a good point i see the vision now.

[chrome atlas]

me when the radiance finally convinces me that the sun and indiscriminate violence is cool:

[torn basalt]

also is it just me or does the nameless village look grossly familiar?

[rugged lotus]

He kinda deserves it bc of his prices

[teal drift]

I love that wyrm lore is literally just “PK is the only one we know of” and “thrall,” the latter of which isnt even unique to wyrms

[obsidian quail]

if she had foresight then the weavers would have been cooked

[limpid summit]

Yuppp

[rugged lotus]

It's said He was the last wrym

[rapid fractal]

they seem pretty cooked

[teal drift]

Bro was a wyrm and pale, he was greedy for aura.

[obsidian quail]

he’s actually blessed and still lost

skill issue

[obsidian quail]

they would have been cooked before anything went down

[rugged lotus]

Ya why didn't he just use the dream nail and kill the radiance himself

[edgy barn]

I don't think Seer would have given it to him

[teal drift]

Do we think pale beings start off as unpale beings and then get paled up? Like did PK start as a wyrm then get paled and GMS start as a spiderish mommy and then get pale? Or do they come into existence in their pale state

[obsidian quail]

i think seer would have because they all follow PK and i doubt he even needs it

[rugged lotus]

Oh like the seer could stop him from talking it

[obsidian quail]

i think they’re born Pale, maybe it’s a supernatural mutation

[teal drift]

Thats a fair possibility

[rugged lotus]

No they are drf different from both than higher beings that need devotion

[limpid summit]

PK probably doesn’t need the dream nail

[rare meteor]

btw, what does WL mean in the red memory dialogue when she says something about her and PK being tied to the void? Is that an inherent trait of pale beings, some kind of curse from meddling with it too much or just a fancy way to say they dropped a whole generation of their children in there

[obsidian quail]

he definitely doesn’t since he took himself and his buzzsaws into someone’s head

[edgy barn]

He doesn't need it regardless. We know PK can acess the dream realm because of the white palace being transported there

[rapid fractal]

yours is the power opposed?

[teal drift]

I think pale stuff like soul/silk has a unique ability to channel or be overtaken by void.

[obsidian quail]

nah just the whole vessel project and PK’s slight obsession with void

[rare meteor]

i'll find a video of it and take a screenshot, brb

[obsidian quail]

as a means to an end

[teal drift]

So theres some sort of natural interaction between pale stuff and void and they often get connected.

[edgy barn]

She says that their family is tied to the void. Unless all pale beings are related to each other, this is 100℅ referencing the vessels

[obsidian quail]

i was saying earlier that maybe Soul and Void are two sides of a coin and that’s why void can kinda take it over like that?

[rare meteor]

oh, so it's not actually anything

[teal drift]

I also agree with that possibility, and it lines up with the “sister of the void” ending

[teal drift]

Soul can also contain. Idk how to describe the relationship.

[rugged lotus]

Ya the void wants the pale beings so it can assimilate them and get rid of em

[teal drift]

I think essence may actually be the opposite of the void based on radiance dialogue “my ancient enemy”

But maybe the void just is the natural enemy of any higher power besides itself lmao.

[granite ice]

are we talking about whether the radiance is pale or not

[rare meteor]

speaking of that, was LL essentially a Vessel then? And "cleaning" her at the end of the fight is equivalent to breaking TK's shell as he dies?

[rugged lotus]

Ya I think so

[teal drift]

NO thst is not what i meant to imply

[rapid fractal]

no

[granite ice]

Idk what you meant to imply, I just got here

[obsidian quail]

she wasn’t a vessel, the void ended up corrupting GMS silk because she refused to die to protect Lace, and Lace is also made of silk so it corrupted her

[turbid pulsar]

is it just me or does PVs focus attack and FS rune rage look similar

[obsidian quail]

void usually doesn’t do that

[rare meteor]

ooh

[limpid summit]

Likely a similar principle of soul use

[visual ibex]

Do we know anything cool about phantom and trobio? (There my favorite bosses)

[rugged lotus]

The void is like apep and the sea of chaos from Egyptian mythology it is a primordial force under everything that wants the world to return to just the void

[limpid summit]

Like how there’s different forms of soul focus

[rare meteor]

i wonder what lost phantom would be like

[edgy barn]

It does. We don't know if it actually means anything.

[rare meteor]

i bet that's one of the dlc fights

[obsidian quail]

Void cleanse us! Ancient Civilization >>>

[turbid pulsar]

but weavers use silk not soul

[granite ice]

I am making an hk boss ranking based on canon strength and am having difficulty placing hornet sentinel as compared to hornet protector... did she just lock in or did she actually get stronger while waiting for us somehow

[obsidian quail]

could be that PV learned Weaver techniques

[limpid summit]

Hornet protector was holding back

[obsidian quail]

since they both use soul

[edgy barn]

Silk is Soul spun into a thread.

[granite ice]

aight thanks

[rapid fractal]

silk ismade from soul

[limpid summit]

She didn’t think she’d need to go all out on a vessel but you had trained well

[turbid pulsar]

ah

i forgor about that

[limpid summit]

Post that ranking when you done

[rugged lotus]

Genuinely I would not be surprised if Egyptian mythology inspired the void bc of how similar the Lord of shades and apep are to each other

[rare meteor]

just locked in, no real reason for her power to change between fights. I guess maybe she found the spike traps somewhere? Marginal change at most

[rugged lotus]

They both swallow the sun as well

[granite ice]

do we think hornet could beat thk if placed outside of the black egg temple? seems like she would, right?

[rapid fractal]

ithink you have torank hornet as one

[obsidian quail]

Ra the Sun god is its rival

[edgy barn]

We know weavers were involved in the vessel project so it is possible they passed some spells along

[obsidian quail]

oh shit

[granite ice]

that is fair, I think I will

[rugged lotus]

Just like the radiance is the voids

[obsidian quail]

ur cooking

[obsidian quail]

yeah i think they passed some seals and some skills for the cause

[edgy barn]

Are we talking infected THK or their prime form (PV)

[obsidian quail]

the Shade Lord does kinda slither around too

[rugged lotus]

Look up where the sea of chaos is in Egyptian mythology it's a black/red sea bellow all things and apep is the being that wants everything to return to just the sea of chaos just as the void also does

[rugged lotus]

🙂 precisely

[rare meteor]

i imagine it's the disinfected one, in the EtW ending cutscene

[obsidian quail]

UR COOKING ALANIS

[limpid summit]

As in if they just fought each other without Hornet risking being drained?

[edgy barn]

That version of THK seems to be literally crawling on the ground, kind of unfair

[limpid summit]

Hornet would probably win vs infected THK, prime THK wins

[rare meteor]

he was leaning on his sword, but still on 2 feet

but yeah, not feeling so good

[torn basalt]

like do we have any confirmed or even speculated information on nameless village?

[limpid summit]

Not really

[lethal burrow]

It is at the end of the path of pain

[limpid summit]

It’s mostly just to show that GMS’s haunting only extends below her

[lethal burrow]

true

[limpid summit]

But she did call to the sentient bugs above

[rugged lotus]

Also chaos in Egyptian mythology is known to CORRUPT people to do it's bidding and give them chaos power where else dose a force similar to the sea of chaos corrupt things and give it power

[rapid fractal]

its just there

[lethal burrow]

there is plenty of reason.

Just cause you don't interpret it that way it doesn't mean it's not implied since implications are subjective my good sir.

This is not mean other people are right either, but you're not looking too great if you discount an idea because it contradicts your own beliefs

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not a sir and I haven't seen any proof of this interpretation

[obsidian quail]

my good madam