sk-lore

[lime nova]

Give me a second to get to Shellwood

[spare pendant]

non-canon gameplay mechanic

[foggy fractal]

theres a harp near sister splinter that talks about a weaver
but I think its just talking about the weaver after sister splinter

[twin dragon]

I mean Jiji recognizes the shade though

And it might be canon if steel city is a thing in the future

[lime nova]

There are a few things that lead me to the conclusion I have about her

[spare pendant]

The canonicity of this interaction is dubious

[twin dragon]

This might hint at widow

[twin dragon]

Depends on how canon steel city will be, if it becomes a thing

[lime nova]

I thought so at one point too, but it doesn't

[spare pendant]

i doubt it's widow since city of steel might be steel clan and not citadel

[twin dragon]

What else could it be

There's literally a room with a widow needolin flashback in the cradle

[spare pendant]

steel clan/vassals are canon, not necessarily the interaction with jiji and your shade

[lime nova]

Widow was not "staked to service", Widow's service was done in spite of being staked. There's evidence suggesting that she was punished by the weavers for supporting Silk, and does so anyways

I think needolin dialogue hints at this

[spare pendant]

Widow is also recognizable as weaver and not weaverborn (especially at a quarter)

[twin dragon]

Jiji can canonically summon the abyss, if the lil servant thingy is canon aswell

[spare pendant]

Vassals can summon void yes

[twin dragon]

That is what i also think

[twin dragon]

Referring to the "in quarter part"

Didn't really understand it till this point

Also isn't it curious how they seemingly managed to capture halfborns instead of full weavers

[ember river]

And silkeaters recover your coccoon, but I don't really think deaths are intended to happen in the story

[ember river]

Journal description too

[twin dragon]

No idea how they do that, guess that's non canon for sure

[ember river]

They presumably dig around until they find your cocoon, then bring it back?

No clue

[spare pendant]

Full weavers are in fuck knows where

Only two are technically known to be alive at this point

[foggy fractal]

which are

[lime nova]

The word sister in this game is almost exclusively used to refer to Weavers.

The harp in Shellwood says:
"Sister, spider, husk bound to branch,
Watch over these bugs, passing safe,
Warded by fear
No longer your meal."

To me this suggests that there is a weaver, whose shell was bound to branches, who was feeding on bugs who passed by, and has been tasked with watching over them instead. There is also a Weaver named the Weaver of the Path. Sister Splinter is also right next to a weaver statue. It is unclear if Weaver Statues are the real husks of weavers, or simply stand-ins for them infused with soul or something. I doubt they're truly all dead Weavers that killed themselves for Hornet specifically to consume. If this is true, it would imply that this Weaver statue area was simply Splinter's, which contains her power and will for Hornet, but Splinter has become so twisted by the haunting that she attacks Hornet unknowingly

[twin dragon]

Widow and idk

[twin dragon]

That weaver is bound to the climbing claw lmao

This is the most batshit insane theory i've seen up till now

[foggy fractal]

yeah

[lime nova]

Hey fuck you dude

[twin dragon]

Fanfic levels of cooking

[spark valve]

are pinstresses all weavers now too

[foggy fractal]

does Hornet bind Widow ? I think so right

[lime nova]

At least take the time to read my whole message and provide actual evidence rather than just being a dick

[twin dragon]

Yup

[twin dragon]

Evidence's right there though

[lime nova]

Why?

[spark valve]

they call each other sisters

[lime nova]

Can you please not be an asshole for 12 seconds

[foggy fractal]

if Sister Splinter was weaver you'd think Hornet would bind her too to get that juicy powerup

[twin dragon]

Shell was bound to the same structure as other bound weavers

[lime nova]

If that was my only piece of evidence then yes, that would be fair criticism

[lime nova]

Which is very clearly not branches by the way

[spark valve]

also it's not unclear if the 'statues' are corpses or not they are corpses they're in funeral spires first sinner's is explicitly called a husk rune harp saying the weavers remaining are dying to wait like the spire corpses say

[open dragon]

Hearing Hornet screaming during the Red Memory sequence makes it painful to hear, like jesus christ that must've been utterly agonizing 💀

[lime nova]

I was not aware of this evidence

[spark valve]

it is tho

[lime nova]

Okay genuinely what the fuck

Why are you guys being so mean

[twin dragon]

"To me this suggests that there is a weaver, whose shell was bound to branches" What's your point then

[twin dragon]

Most likely are, some form of remnant, how else would you be able to bind them

[lime nova]

I'm not gonna talk more about this with you dude. You've been a total dick the whole time

[twin dragon]

I'm just saying it's stupid

Why are you calling me a dick for debunking something

[lime nova]

Yeah that's fucking rude bro

Didn't your mama teach you better?

[twin dragon]

Calling out flat earth is being a dick too i guess

[lime nova]

No, that's not what you're doing. If you were politely debunking you'd go through my points and explain why they're flawed, not go "this is batshit" while not even having finished reading my paragraph

You're being quite obtuse, you can debunk something without being rude about it

[twin dragon]

Maybe consider the fact that you bind a weaver right after sister splinter

[eternal sigil]

I think that the implication that the remaining Pharloom Weavers are in stasis is consistent enough across the game to suggest that the Shellwood one is as well

[sour hawk]

Was going to share a pretty interesting thoughts and a theory I've had cooking for a minute but this chat seems awful lmao

[twin dragon]

Sister splinter shares no similitudes to a weaver

In no way shape or form

[eternal sigil]

I do find Sister Splinter a mite suspicious but in the same vein, it is clearly of the stickbug/phasmid clade of bugs and the weaver is right there

[lime nova]

Yeah. They seem to think a "bad theory" is permission to call you stupid

[twin dragon]

Im not calling YOU stupid ffs

[lime nova]

Bruh

Just apologize

[sour hawk]

I'm gonna wait for yall to figure this out

[eternal sigil]

It could well be that Splinter was originally a Weaver-influenced or controlled guardian. Remember that the Weavers were the original proprietors of Silk and original agents of GMS, and therefore set up the first infrastructure that is now directly responsible for the Haunting

[lime nova]

I am genuinely pretty curious about what it is. If you feel comfortable, you could dm me about it. Or maybe you could ping me when/if you send it here another time

[twin dragon]

Sister splinter has nothing related to silk though

[eternal sigil]

That to me makes the most sense

[lime nova]

This makes sense to me

[twin dragon]

Maybe that weaver specifically prevented sister splinter from preying on pilgrims

[eternal sigil]

She is a Pharloom bug and therefore contains Silk, moreover her psychotic disposition seems to be Haunting-caused given the bestiary entry implying she didn't always do this

[lime nova]

Yeah, that also seems plausible

I personally don't think the weaver statue makes sense as an explanation for the "sister, spider, husk bound to branch" line

[eternal sigil]

Shellwood originally was friendly to the Citadel and to the Pilgrims

[twin dragon]

She doesn't appear very friendly in the first place

[twin dragon]

Bound to shellwood

[spark valve]

are you forgetting where that line is actually found

[lime nova]

Maybe? But the husk itself isn't, only the building is, and you have to admit that's a bit of a stretch, no?

[lime nova]

Dude, seriously. There's a nicer way to say this

[spark valve]

it's not ambiguous what it refers to

[lime nova]

How hard is it to say "the fact that it's near the weaver site and not near the splinter fight makes me think it's not connected to Splinter"

Like... ugh

I feel like I'm having to explain the concept of manners to people rn

[twin dragon]

But it is... What do you bind to obtain cling grip...

[lime nova]

The husk

Not the building

When you bind it, the actual building, which is the only thing actually touching branches, is still there

[spark valve]

the husk which is...

[twin dragon]

The husk is placed into the building though... Just like the rest...

[lime nova]

Yeah?

[twin dragon]

Just like the rest

[lime nova]

It's not "bound to branch"

[spark valve]

yes it is

[twin dragon]

Well that obviously refers to her being bound to shellwood

[lime nova]

It's bound to a steel pire

[twin dragon]

Not LITERALLY bound to branch jesus

[lofty otter]

have yall considered it being a metaphor

[lofty otter]

exactly

[twin dragon]

Where is it implied?

[spark valve]

'bound in funeral spire connected to branch' doesn't roll off the tongue so smooth

[lime nova]

One of the weaver effigies I think

[twin dragon]

That weaver might've kept it safe then

[eternal sigil]

the entire Nyleth quest?

[lime nova]

Yeah, I agree that that's a valid explanation

[twin dragon]

there's lore about nyleth??' holy shit!!!

Calling it a quest is a bit of a stretch

[lime nova]

Ok genuinely what's happening

[twin dragon]

But yeah nyleth was guarding shellwood before

[eternal sigil]

The Citadel dedicated a shrine to Nyleth and with it the heart of Shellwood, and as discussed by the snail shamans this was either transactional to or in response to Shellwood granting pilgrims safe access

[lime nova]

Why is everyone being mean to each other

[karmic tartan]

Does anyone remember when ost 25 plays

[twin dragon]

Mhm

[eternal sigil]

This is mostly one user being snide tbh

[lime nova]

Prison break fight

[karmic tartan]

Ah

[spark valve]

You should step away for a bit and chill

[lime nova]

Yeah, it's really frustrating

[twin dragon]

Though in nyleth's absence

[karmic tartan]

The true final boss is Seth's high scores in fleatopia

[lime nova]

I wouldn't have to if anyone other than me was calling this out, but yeah. I'll step back for a moment

[karmic tartan]

I just got here so idk what's going on

[spark valve]

Nothing

[karmic tartan]

And it is a main objective, I would not say it's a stretch to call it a quest

[foggy fractal]

Nothing ever happens 🫨

[limber anvil]

OK looks like my assumptions are correct... Someone managed to reanable it... On the map

[foggy fractal]

anyways are there still anything to dispute about Sister Splinter being a weaver I think we moved through all the arguments

[spark valve]

No

[silk dirge]

BAY AREA REFERENCE WHAT IS ANY OTHER INFERIOR REGION OF THE US RAHHHHHH

[eternal sigil]

it's in the journal as an objective, you get directions to it from a key NPC, there is a dedicated guardian NPC boss, then you get to the shrine for the whole Elegy from the Deep schtick, fight the boss, get your key item, and return it to the key NPC to progress the narrative

[limber anvil]

....

[eternal sigil]

This is objectively several steps beyond the minimum requirement of either Objectives or Wishes

[silk dirge]

🦭 🌉 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥

oh wait

[silk dirge]

why did i put fire emote thats actually kinda insane 😭

[eternal sigil]

I mean there's always more lore to sift through. One thing I didn't see pointed out was voice acting/SFX

[silk dirge]

look we havent had any bad wildfires in a few years

[limber anvil]

There unused room tunnels 1 month before launch... The bay area was never finished

[eternal sigil]

I think Sister Splinter recycles those of both Widow and First Sinner which is to me actually rather damning

Or at least the same VA is there

[silk dirge]

they needed to build the golden gate bridge

[eternal sigil]

Vocal timbre is almost identical

[limber anvil]

Hope it returns in dlc

[spark valve]

They reused vas a lot in HK that’s not weird

[lime nova]

Oh, I've not heard of this

[limber anvil]

For xontet the bay was moved location wise in 2022 and had empty tunnels to the unused area in 2023 which remained until august 7th but the area wasn't finished

[foggy fractal]

it isn't really damning evidence when we have disputed every other argument

[silk dirge]

dlc bait

[eternal sigil]

Skong has generally way less recycling and moreover it is an odd coincidence considering the prominence/position of the other members in the "set"

[silk dirge]

i mean doesnt nuu have the same voice actor as like shakra or smth

[spark valve]

ok? it still isn't really evidence

[eternal sigil]

I do not think it is proof, but it is definitely odd evidence

[silk dirge]

does this mean nuu and shakra are related lore wise?

[spark valve]

yes

[silk dirge]

actually wait what if i say yes so i can cook up some crazy theory

[spark valve]

it just doesn't mean anything and if sister splinter was a weaver why doesn't she look act behave etc like one and why is there zero actual indication of it

[lime nova]

One thing I'd really like to see is the full maps of Hallownest and Pharloom lined up next to each other, with the abyss properly placed as low as it should be in Pharloom (calculated based on the length of the vertical climb out sequence) so we can see how big they are compared to each other :3

[spark valve]

like this is worse than zote vessel

[eternal sigil]

I will reiterate that my theory is that Splinter was probably some kind of Weaver-controlled guardian that went haywire when they left or the Haunting began

[foggy fractal]

also Sister Splinter says "Children, children, hide and strike!" in her needolin dialogue
we know Weavers having children is near impossible

[spark valve]

if anything the implication is she's that for nyleth

[eternal sigil]

But I also think the situation is vaguely in the field of "there is some kind of odd correlation here" that if there is some Weaver identity BS I wouldn't be completely surprised

[silk dirge]

i think sister splinter is just a stick bug that stick bugged too much

[foggy fractal]

Lauren Koopowitz credited as playing...
Shakra • Nuu • Gilly • Moss Druid • Pebb

[silk dirge]

shakra and nuu are totally related wdym

[spark valve]

it's almost like voice actors being shared means nothing

[foggy fractal]

yeah

[twin dragon]

True

Though i feel like nyleth could have a bit more

[eternal sigil]

Agreed

[twin dragon]

Ehh

[spark valve]

The heart bosses are mostly afterthoughts

[eternal sigil]

imo Nyleth is the weakest experience of the four... whatever you call them's

[twin dragon]

everything related to nyleth could just not exist and it wouldn't make a difference

[silk dirge]

this is objectively false

bc seth

[twin dragon]

Aside from the entirety of shellwood

[twin dragon]

He doesn't contribute much either

[silk dirge]

do you not know seth lore

[twin dragon]

Sister splinter doesn't seem to be haunted

[eternal sigil]

Lost Verdania was a great experience, Skarrsinger is objectively the most high effort boss of the lot, and Coral Tower was cool in a number of ways (plus Crust King was neat in spite of not being terribly complex)

[foggy fractal]

at least with Karmelita and Khann I feel as if they had more in plan for them given that we've seen a bigger room in the 2019 area that seems connected to the ants and well... the whole coral area getting removed

it seems like they wanted to do an act 3, and just reusued these guys

[twin dragon]

I know it's rlly heartening character from someone who passed away from cancer

But What about in game

[silk dirge]

im saying it would make a big difference if he got removed

[twin dragon]

that's not lore

[silk dirge]

sure but the game is objectively better with seth in

[twin dragon]

alr let's make him the guardian of lost verdania then

[silk dirge]

it would be fucked up if team cherry didnt put seth in

tho yeah true he could be moved around

i get that

[twin dragon]

I really like what they did for the boy, but it wouldn't make a difference to me if it wasn't seth for example

[eternal sigil]

depends, how similar do Nuu and Shakra sound when they talk

[twin dragon]

If the boy cooked something else

[eternal sigil]

not at all

[silk dirge]

imagine seth cooked up a shade lord boss fight or some shit

[twin dragon]

SO on the sister splinter topic

[rain spindle]

So

[twin dragon]

I think it's reclaiming its territory after nyleth is gone

[rain spindle]

Why is Seth immortal

Is there any lore on that

[silk dirge]

why wouldnt he

[graceful grail]

Does someone have the boss needleloin Diologe Documented somewhere??

[rain spindle]

I mean lore wise

[twin dragon]

Nothing to do with weavers, especially since they're known to engineer a lot of stuff specifically for them

[silk dirge]

presumably bc nyleth

[eternal sigil]

interesting notion but I don't think Splinter predates Nyleth because of Nyleth being the origins of Shellwood itself

[rain spindle]

It's implied being nyleths guardian is not his first life

[twin dragon]

Is nyleth really the origin of shellwood?

[foggy fractal]

you can go to the wiki, not sure if they have everything yet https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Category:Bosses_(Silksong)

[eternal sigil]

the stickbugs/phasmids live upon it, they wouldn't have lived there beforehand

[silk dirge]

yes

[rain spindle]

Only some parts of it

Sister Splinter and stickbugs are not related to him

[eternal sigil]

It is consistent called the first seed of the Shellwood and the heart of the woods, that is how I read of it

I don't think the stickbugs came from Nyleth but I think before the woods they wouldn't have had habitat there to live in

[twin dragon]

Sure, not saying they didn't predate nyleth

I mean maybe i worded myself wrongly with reclaiming

[eternal sigil]

fair enougu

[twin dragon]

Because they're just claiming it now

[eternal sigil]

so basically just Splinter is a wild creature being opportunistic in a world where the order is gone

[eternal sigil]

That makes sense and I think is a good null hypothesis (i.e. nobody else is directly involved with Splinter)

[twin dragon]

Basically roided stickbug

[twin dragon]

I'd honestly take that over anything else

[karmic tartan]

Yeah

[twin dragon]

Not js coral tower and karmelita herself, but how they're connected to their areas

With nyleth we're just vaguely told that it sprouted some life and protected pilgrims

[eternal sigil]

that too

Nyleth does have a top 10 OST in the game for what that's worth

though I attribute that mostly to Seth being involved

[twin dragon]

ehh, for me it's not even close

It kind of has no reason in-game to be like that

[flint wadi]

yeah i love how solemn it sounds in the seth fight

[silk dirge]

yeah

[foggy fractal]

I guess my biggest gripe with the heart bosses is that the build up to them is very jarring, it feels like they're act 2 content that got moved into act 3 forcefully

[twin dragon]

I like khan and karmelita's foreshadowing

[silk dirge]

i mean so are dream bosses in hk

[flint wadi]

no thats not it
the distribution makes it seem like that but they were always a core part of the game

[silk dirge]

oh you killed this boss now you can enter their dream

its kinda silly

if you have dream nail theres just no build up at all for like lost kin

[edgy barn]

The dream bosses were optional side content thought

[silk dirge]

i mean then so is act 3

[foggy fractal]

yeah

[silk dirge]

dream bosses are required for true ending

[eternal sigil]

eh, I think they basically serve their role alright as longstanding mysteries in the story that you have a chance to basically solve but in so doing burn the legacy of to save the future

[spark valve]

The conversation is about impact not literally when they were introduced in development

They’re all just sort of there

[graceful grail]

Do all the bosses have Needloin Diologe??

[foggy fractal]

no idea

[eternal sigil]

My only real criticism of the concept is how very similar it is to the Dreamers formula from Hk

[twin dragon]

not true, you can grind your way to the awoken dream nail by killing enemies for 1 essence at a low chance

[edgy barn]

says who? Just farm birds in greenpath for essence

[foggy fractal]

or do it in hive

[silk dirge]

true true

[spare pendant]

very few enemies don't

[silk dirge]

i forgot about that

[graceful grail]

GMS??

[eternal sigil]

It is way better than the HK Dreamers but it feels a bit like a recycled trope

[foggy fractal]

imagine the Skurry randomizers for silksong 😨

[twin dragon]

Dreamers were a big dissapointment for me in hk

[spare pendant]

"very few"

[graceful grail]

Markoth

[foggy fractal]

so nice the game had to do it twice

[twin dragon]

dreamers not dream warriors

[foggy fractal]

first the threefold melodies

now the hearts

[flint wadi]

fair, but the word afterthought kinda implies the latter so

[silk dirge]

threefold melodies had cool moments tho

architects melody was way cooler than any dreamer

[eternal sigil]

I liked the melody concept but as a motif it is a bit stale yes

[silk dirge]

ballador is also pretty cool

vaultkeeper is silly tho

[eternal sigil]

"Collect my three dreamers/songs/hearts"

[graceful grail]

2 of them have a good chunck of lore, unlike the melody keepers in SS

[edgy barn]

I didn't really feel like the hearts were a repeat of the dreamers unlike the melodies

[eternal sigil]

I really wish we got more of Ballador

[twin dragon]

Good chunk of lore???

[foggy fractal]

yeah vaultkeeper's melody was the worst one you sort of just go collect it

[eternal sigil]

not at all like what I was expecting and in a cool way

[graceful grail]

Herra and Monomon

[spare pendant]

nah the dreamers all have a good chunk of lore

[silk dirge]

i feel like ballador is pretty good lore

[twin dragon]

Lurien has literally nothing, herrah's the queen of deepnest, monomon's a teacher

[silk dirge]

lurien does not lol

[twin dragon]

That's about it

[spare pendant]

lurien has the least but there's a fair bit in the archives

[eternal sigil]

yeah Lurien was extremely weak lore wise

[graceful grail]

Watcher kinda has minimal lore. He just wants stuff the same

[eternal sigil]

I think mostly as a victim of scrapped content

[twin dragon]

The vaultkeeper, architect and conductor encounters all give a bunch of lore about pharloom and citadel

[eternal sigil]

He is a through and through royal loyalist

that's the extent of jt

[spare pendant]

the architect isn't personally a melody keeper though

[silk dirge]

idk about vaultkeeper but ballador is pretty big lore for sure

[maiden meteor]

Lurien was a creep stalking on City’s denizens smh

[eternal sigil]

I think if the City of Tears had more people in it that would mean more

[twin dragon]

The melody doesn't even represent them pretty sure

[spare pendant]

hymns do give a lot of lore i think

[twin dragon]

It represents the combined efforts to carry out the citadel's might

[silk dirge]

SURGERY SOUNDS

[graceful grail]

No, the real one was shorter

[spare pendant]

im pretty sure if you talk to him while one plays you'll get lore

[foggy fractal]

who ?

[silk dirge]

cardinius

[foggy fractal]

Cardinius ?

right cardinius

[edgy barn]

How did you get the melodies of the keeper and the architect? I legitemately forgot

[eternal sigil]

I think the main thing I got from the three "keepers" is that all three of them had either become doubters or actively cynical about the purpose and future of Pharloom

[silk dirge]

yeah i sure want the lore of mizellos surgery

[twin dragon]

the whiteward psalm cylinder incident

[silk dirge]

how did you forget architect its the most hype one

architect you climb up clockwork core and it has the cool moment with the automaton chorus

[foggy fractal]

architect you have to climb cogwork core and solve a puzzle

[eternal sigil]

Ballador is the most obvious but the Keeper Pontiff did as well, and 12th Architect also says effectively as thus as she winds down

[silk dirge]

its a super cool moment

[twilit current]

I was expecting the whole screen to fill up with those singing robots and I was very mildly disappointed when that didn't happen

[foggy fractal]

vaultkeeper you just collect it from a dead guy and play it at cardinius

[twilit current]

Still a really cool scene though

[edgy barn]

Oh yeah I do remember the puzzle.

[twin dragon]

Architect fell to reasoning, ballador's still somewhat optimistic, vaultkeeper doesnt gaf and loves having the thingies

[eternal sigil]

the climb to that filled me with enough rage to sour the moment but tbh this was also 1. back when cogs did two masks and 2. before I had internalized using Clawshot as a standard movement tool

[twin dragon]

Vaultkeepers as a whole basically exist and compete to see who hoards more

[eternal sigil]

also I was very sleep deprived, finished it at 4:30 in the morning

[twin dragon]

Scrounge being a very obvious case

[eternal sigil]

Scrounge and Cardinius are interesting to me as contrast

They appear to clearly be of the same species, but one has a normal bug mask thing and the other has the Citadel style of things

[silk dirge]

scrounge probably enjoys it when you blast the surgery audio in bellhart

[twin dragon]

Scrounge is probably hiding his appereance

For obvious reasons

Since whatever he wears on his face is obviously a mask

[eternal sigil]

possible but I think it has more to do with the effect of masks on bugs in the setting

which is still fucking baffling

[twin dragon]

Ehh, i dont think in this case

Since scrounge acts like a certified vaultkeeper

[eternal sigil]

Silksong simultaneously gave way more information about this and muddled the waters enough to make it hard to discern new truths

[eternal sigil]

Well true

[twin dragon]

masks are weird in general

[spare pendant]

i think y'all take mask lore too literally

mask maker philosophy applies irl too

people shape their personalities and sense of identity based on how they present socially

[eternal sigil]

also re: cylinders, I think the only honestly big piece of lore/question we get from them is that apparently Whiteward surgeries were somehow important enough to be recorded and engraved on gramophone cylinders

More for the fact that this is a baffling practice and why the hell would they do this

[ember river]

I think he's the same species as them

Cardinius and the Pontiff at least

[ember river]

Maybe they only did it for the high ranking officials?

Or to record the results of experiments

[twin dragon]

Because he IS

[tribal cargo]

what happened to || carmelita kingdom ?? ||

[twin dragon]

And very obviously so

[rustic tundra]

do all weavers make their cloaks out of silk?

[twin dragon]

Extend lifetime, silk does magic, high order experiments with it

[ember river]

It's unclear, I personally think they fell around the Haunting due to the journal descriptions, but some think the Citadel itself had something to do

[twin dragon]

And that was the surgery of a CONDUCTOR mind you

[lucid fossil]

yah that’s all I knew of their help, didn’t really think it did much

[ember river]

Yeah that's what I was thinking

[twin dragon]

Karmelita lost control of her kingdom due to either age or haunting

Or the fact that she started birthing

[obsidian quail]

so who did that to Widow again

[twin dragon]

probably the weavers

[lucid fossil]

probably the citadel

[tribal cargo]

what is haunting or birthing?

[twin dragon]

Don't see how that goes

[tribal cargo]

u mean she birth more ants?

[lucid fossil]

i doubt it, widow was definitely pinned and stuff after the haunting started

[tribal cargo]

sorry whats haunting again?

[lucid fossil]

The thread silk infection

[ember river]

Like the infection but in pharloom

[twin dragon]

Probably before, due to being loyal to gms

[lucid fossil]

The thing that connects people to mother silk

[ember river]

I'd say the Weavers

[tribal cargo]

haunting is cuz of the mother silk last desperate attempt before consumed by void or smth right?

[lucid fossil]

Well widow is haunted so is she actually loyal or forced to do it

[spare pendant]

the ants actually still maintain a social order due to karmelita, but they're no longer under her control

[obsidian quail]

and the thought that the Weavers rebelled because they didn’t want servitude is still correct?

[ember river]

Widow is clearly sided with GMS

[spare pendant]

unrelated to void

[ember river]

Yes, that's outright stated by the Mask Maker

[twin dragon]

She's not haunted

[lucid fossil]

HUH

[twin dragon]

Who says she's haunted

[spare pendant]

widow is a loyal servant

[lucid fossil]

If you hit them and silk comes out then they’re haunted

[twin dragon]

Like when queen ants give birth yknow

[spare pendant]

no, shakra also gives silk on hit

[lucid fossil]

I’m not referring to the silk bar

[obsidian quail]

and the Citadel was specifically created by Weavers to keep GMS asleep, but the Weavers and GMS were in Pharloom before that? where are the pre Citadel structures then?

[eternal sigil]

I don't think they will ever release a post-game epilogue thing for Skong but if they do I could see one of the most influential things being whether Karmelita was left alive or not

[twin dragon]

Hornet molds silk from soul

[lucid fossil]

And hornet uses soul for that

I’m taking about the silk hit effect

[spare pendant]

if you mean the particles, widow has silk

like literally she has silk in her

[lucid fossil]

Yeah she’s probably haunted then

[twin dragon]

She just can't use it

[spare pendant]

no?? she's a weaver

[twin dragon]

Or idk, SHE'S A WEAVER??

[eternal sigil]

of the four legendary rulers of Pharloom she is the only one remaining who is both alive and has any sort of future/relevance

[spare pendant]

all weavers have silk

[lucid fossil]

She could be both

[twin dragon]

I don't see how that works

[lucid fossil]

Why not

[spare pendant]

there's nothing indicating she's haunted, and nothing indicating weavers can even be haunted

[tribal cargo]

so carmelita grew weak and the kingdom got separated or smth?

[spare pendant]

in fact hornet seems immune to the haunting in a belhart cutscene

[twin dragon]

Hornet seems immune to it

[tribal cargo]

i kinda want to see the whole thing of what she looks like

[obsidian quail]

where are the pre-Citadel structures, where was GMS chillin before her coma

[lucid fossil]

She’s half pale being that could contribute to that

[lucid fossil]

Idk probably fucking around with her kids somewhere

[eternal sigil]

• Nyleth is either deceased or dormant
• Crust King appears to be dead or dormant
• Green Prince does not give a shit about anything anymore with the loss of his consort
• Karmelita is both living and still seems to be the ruler and mother of the ants; while confined to her nest she would still be able to raise new Skarr and lead them into a post-GMS age

[twin dragon]

In pharloom in general pretty sure

[spare pendant]

not even a little bit relevant

[twin dragon]

Khann is FOR SURE dead

[eternal sigil]

He is either dead or in a state of cryptobiosis

[twin dragon]

And green prince seems dead too

[obsidian quail]

so it is the case she had no part in the citadel creation

[lucid fossil]

Were the bugs in bellhart being haunted though? It kinda looked like they were just getting sewed to the bell

[eternal sigil]

I don't think he can be returned, not in the least the Coral Kingdom

[spare pendant]

green prince isn't dead until you kill him

[twin dragon]

Stated that the weavers created the citadel to keep her dormant

[lucid fossil]

Poor green prince 😿 he was the huzz…

[spare pendant]

Yes, they specifically say "it felt like being connected to a larger whole"

[twin dragon]

THe discussion is post heart rip out

[obsidian quail]

okay so someone tell me what is the point of Silksong

[spare pendant]

they're all dead post heart quest

[spare pendant]

elaborate?

[obsidian quail]

what is the message behind GMS and lace and all that

what am i supposed to walk away with

[twin dragon]

Religious cults society wide are bad

And religious cults in general are bad

[spare pendant]

Like the deeper meaning? There are a lot of different deeper meanings in silksong, but not every part of it has a deeper meaning

There is no single overarching one

[ember river]

Also motherhood

In general, nothing specific, just moms

[eternal sigil]

I meant pre-heart removal, in the sense that one of the four can be spared

[lucid fossil]

except for my zest king

[twin dragon]

Ah, so karmelita is uh weak and stuff

[eternal sigil]

Green Prince would survive but I don't think he would do anything with his life

[lucid fossil]

Does being zesty help resist the haunting

[twin dragon]

And green prince's there

[eternal sigil]

Karmelita is infirm and largely immobile but still alive and lucid, and also is the queen ant

[ember river]

Green Prince is just depressed

[eternal sigil]

the latter is important because either a new Skarr queen has to rise up or eventually they will go the way of Hallownest's Hive with the death of the only reproducing female

[lucid fossil]

Is there a reason why green prince wanted to kill the dancers himself? I know they were made out of the soul of his lover but ummmm

[spare pendant]

well, vespa dying didn't doom the hive, they would've been fine if not for the infection

[twin dragon]

Karmelita seems to have lost control due to the haunting partially

[ember river]

I believe the Skarrs are doomed either way, with the vast majority being Haunted

[ember river]

This is true

[lucid fossil]

Then those bitches killed the one guy that wasn’t haunted

[ember river]

Who?

[lucid fossil]

Is this like the infection where non-infecteds get attacked

[twin dragon]

I mean he was marked as a rebel sooo

[obsidian quail]

well hollow knight had a message about not fighting the inevitable end and stuff

[lucid fossil]

The skarr trader behind a secret room

[obsidian quail]

which was pretty clear

[ember river]

He dies to the Skarrs?

[obsidian quail]

i don’t understand the message and point behind Lace or GMS and their relationship

[ember river]

Also, Gurr isn't haunted

[obsidian quail]

edgy teen hates mom?

[twin dragon]

hollow knight always seemed like a "you can overcome fate" type thing

[lucid fossil]

He has the little bone weapons stabbed into him, I forgot which enemy uses those but I think it’s used by the flying guys

[ember river]

But he did kill one of the bodyguards

[ember river]

Well, most of them are haunted anyways

If it's the flying ones, then ALL of them

[obsidian quail]

i think the first game was about accepting fate and i can see this game being about overcoming it, but i don’t understand the point of GMS as a character

[spare pendant]

he was possibly killed because of his mark

[twin dragon]

I mean family instincts are stronger than most things

[obsidian quail]

and Lace

[twin dragon]

Esp since gms tried to do that with the weavers

[lime nova]

I'm starting to think our community might need to make a third type of being between "common bug" and "higher being" that we can categorize bugs into, because I've noticed our community sees a character obviously far above the common bug (example: nyleth, greyroot) and immediately thinks of plcing them as a higher being, when I think that's a very specific thing that those characters do not seem to be to me.

[spare pendant]

haunted victims actually don't mindlessly kill everyone they just kidnap hornet

[eternal sigil]

indeed, and with the Haunting ended I think she would re-attain control over the surviving Skarr ants

[lucid fossil]

Huh. I still wonder if haunted people care about people that aren’t though

Actually yeah the haunted pilgrims attack others

[obsidian quail]

regular bug stronk bug stronker bug higher being

[twin dragon]

They seem to keep doing what they were supposed to do

[spare pendant]

not inherently, but they also aren't entirely lucid, so they do attack others in many cases

[lime nova]

Lmao

[eternal sigil]

not through fighting or something, more through the pheromone network of the ants resuming as the main means of social organization

[spare pendant]

a notable example is the judges who let sherma pass because he's "sinless" (has total faith in the citadel)

[lucid fossil]

Like the infection wtfff

[lime nova]

Because while characters like Khan and Karmelita are likely just bugs that are pretty tough, Nyleth definitely appears to be something above that

[lucid fossil]

Yeah I think it’s like the infection but they don’t become mindless, just hostile

[twin dragon]

Nope, the infection basically makes them guided by instinct and all

[celest wagon]

What happens to reed in act 3? (Little bellhart guard dude)

[twin dragon]

I mean judges don't seem haunted

[lucid fossil]

I was referring to the infection making bugs continue their jobs

[eternal sigil]

Basically tl;dr I think the Skarr kingdom/queendom could survive if Karmelita remains alive, the other three are either dead or remnants of doomed systems

[twin dragon]

It doesn't pretty sure

Last judge has a thought of her own

[obsidian quail]

why are all the Weavers female

[lucid fossil]

It does, city of tears journal entries I think

[golden olive]

in blasted steps?

[obsidian quail]

are all pharlids female

[twin dragon]

YEAH

[lucid fossil]

Slay

[golden olive]

but threads show up on some of them i think

[twin dragon]

Threads are near em but dont seem to interact with them p sure

[spare pendant]

they might not be, but we never see them reproduce with other weavers, so it's probably because GMS only converted female pharlids

[lucid fossil]

Maybe mother silk only heightened the form of female pharlids

[edgy barn]

My headcanon is that normal Pharlids are female while Pharlid Divers are the males

[twin dragon]

They possess pilgrim's corpses

[eternal sigil]

yeah husks are impelled by base instinct, for well trained bugs (ex. every kind of guard bug) this means keeping up with what they did in life

[lucid fossil]

Yah

[twin dragon]

Also haunting seems to come from the silk woven into bugs genes passed down by their ancestors

[eternal sigil]

Could be an attempt by GMS to keep them under control

[twin dragon]

And judges don't seem to ever have been inside of it

[eternal sigil]

if they could reproduce freely then they could break off and establish parallel/independent societies

or become populous enough to overthrow her

[edgy barn]

The silk in the bugs enables the haunting but the haunting itself is still caused by outside threads.

I really doubt the Skarr got silk injected into them at any point

[twin dragon]

On corpses though

[spare pendant]

to be clear, silk isn't genetic, it's passed down like micro plastics

[twin dragon]

pretty sure it is

Caretaker talks about it at some point

[spare pendant]

you can pass something down without it being genetic

[obsidian quail]

it’s definitely like microplastics

[lucid fossil]

The last judge is haunted though

[twin dragon]

no

[eternal sigil]

silk is magic microplastics

[lucid fossil]

Yes they are they have the silk particles

[eternal sigil]

or even just magic plastic

[twin dragon]

I mean due to how many modifications bugs in the citadel suffered i wouldn't be surprised

[golden olive]

i think ur right cuz we also specifically see a petrified judge carcass with no threads around it

[twin dragon]

brother everything has it

[obsidian quail]

it’s just so embedded it gets passed down

[twin dragon]

Even shakra in her fight i think

[eternal sigil]

a wonder material that can do all kinds of marvelous things and also contaminate everything around it if abused in excess

[bitter berry]

Why does lifeblood seem so much more malevolent than it did in hollow knight?

[spare pendant]

not shakra, pinstress, etc

[lucid fossil]

Nope. Gurr Shakra Garamond

[twin dragon]

Where exactly silk particles though

[lucid fossil]

When you hit enemies you can see small strands fly out of them

If they’re haunted

[eternal sigil]

because in Pharloom it hasn't been driven into obscurity/rarity nearly as effectively

[spare pendant]

almost all citadel bugs are haunted, including judges

the few lucid ones don't attack us

[bitter berry]

Oh gotcha, so it's naturally invasive just nearly extinct in hallownest to where it's not significant?

[twin dragon]

Every judge attacks us

[spare pendant]

Judges are haunted

[twin dragon]

There are no lucid judges i think

[eternal sigil]

I think Garmond has it as a Pharloom bug, he just has enough independent will to hold off from control either by willpower or by chance. Shakra is a foreigner though and has no Silk

[edgy barn]

Hornet makes a distinction between the silk already in the bugs and the thread that causes the haunting when talking to the caretaker after whiteward

Have you done it yet, bellringer? Wriggled deep? Discovered the depths of obsession that brought this place so low?
Hornet: If you speak of this Citadel and its Silk, Caretaker, then yes, I now know the start of it.
Hornet: In the ward down below, I saw it clear, the hollowed husks, and the many torturous implements... machines to instill a bug with thread, that would see their life extended.
Aye! That's it, in part! But there's more scale to it than all that. Just think of'em greedily shoving the Silk into their shells, the madness that overcame them, eternal life for mortal bugs! Then think on how long it's all gone on...
Hornet: ...The children born of them, and all the pilgrims after... The Silk has seeded deep into this kingdom's shells, generations deep...
Hornet: No wonder Pharloom's bugs proved such easy prey for that haunted thread. It had only to seek for itself to reach them.
Ho ho! Now you're seein' it, bellringer! These poor pilgrims, all born bound to the cruel system of our world, now stricken in its new cursed web.
You at least are free from it. And free to shake it all up... if'n that's your choosing.

[spare pendant]

I was talking about citadel bugs in general

[twin dragon]

ah

[edgy barn]

Attacking the sinful is their job

[eternal sigil]

Consider that the main dealer of lifeseed in Hallownest, Joni, was branded with the title of "Heretic"

[spare pendant]

yeah lifeblood was a taboo

[ember river]

I wouldn't say every single Pharloom bug had

[eternal sigil]

Pale King knew of the threat it represented and took measures to see the stuff exterminated

[twin dragon]

Passed down yeah

[ember river]

Garmond probably got caught by some thread

[spare pendant]

lifeblood is incredibly dangerous to life, the knight is just goated

[ember river]

The funny mutagenic goop

[eternal sigil]

In contrast, it seems to have come to Pharloom long after the Haunting and with it the ability of the ruling god to do anything about it

[twin dragon]

Some whose ancestors came from the citadel do i think

[ember river]

Come to think of it, Lifeblood is kind of Hollow Knight's FEV

[eternal sigil]

Notice how fast it spreads between Act 1 and Act 3

[ember river]

Yeah, the descendants

[lucid fossil]

He doesn’t

[whole holly]

Sharka is from edges of Pharloom so maybe GMS doesn't have reach there?

[eternal sigil]

I don't think Zylotol and the other one had been here for very long

[spare pendant]

shakra isn't from pharloom at all

shakra is from an independent village

[lucid fossil]

I thought the knight could withstand it because he’s void, my belief is that lifeblood was made by the abyss creature

[whole holly]

yeah, it says edges of pharloom in game

[spare pendant]

where?

[lucid fossil]

Edges of pharloom probably means outside of it

[eternal sigil]

I think the most interesting theories about what Lifeblood is from is that it is from some Higher Being that is related to but somehow complementary to the Radiance

[whole holly]

Warrior cartographer of a tribe from Pharloom's edge. Her skills in battle could challenge the kingdom's best. - Hornet, Hunter's journal

[edgy barn]

What I am trying to highlight is that Hornet remarks how the "haunted thread" looked for itself (the implemented) in order to more easily reach the bug of pharloom. The physical threads already in their bodies are not the same physical threads causing the haunting.

[eternal sigil]

it is blue rather than orange, but similarly appears as a glowing colorful liquid, and seems to have something to do with butterflies of all things

[whole holly]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Shakra

[spare pendant]

okay noted, thank you

[whole holly]

i know? i never said otherwise

[eternal sigil]

both with the lifeseed chrysalises' appearance and also the butterfly wing buds

[lucid fossil]

I wasn’t talking to you brah

[ember river]

Lifeblood is much more physical than the Radiance's infection

[twin dragon]

For sure makes it easier to reach though

[ember river]

The Infection propagated through dreams

[twin dragon]

And most silk IS GMS's silk

[lucid fossil]

I think they’re talking about how the lifeblood seed and infectious seed look alike

[edgy barn]

Yeah that's what that line actually means, thank you.

[spare pendant]

yeah but the abyss creature, who has heavy relation to lifeblood, has control over dreams

[whole holly]

contextually your comment is answer to mine, there is no other comment that your comment addresses

[ember river]

What?

How does it control dreams, where is that stated

[lucid fossil]

The other person in the conversation said she wasn’t from pharloom at all

[spare pendant]

the entire abyss creature room takes place in a blue dream

[twin dragon]

Took me a while

[ember river]

Please show evidence for that

[lucid fossil]

In the godhome and core room you can see dream particles

[spare pendant]

play the game 😭

[ember river]

In the abyss room? Blue dream particles?

I don't think that creature is itself the HB that may be associated with lifeblood but it's interesting nontheless

[whole holly]

nowhere, but there are essence particles in Lifeblood Room in Abyss i guess that's it, plus when you die there your shade ends up outside , other than that nothing

[ember river]

Explain your points better, Dream particles =/= The entire area is a dream

[ember river]

The shade thing does happen in a bunch of other platform areas though

[whole holly]

i know

[edgy barn]

When you collect the highblood core, the screen transitions like in a dream sequence and the knight wakes up outside the lifeblood door

[whole holly]

i guess that's another

[spare pendant]

it's better if you go do the sequence yourself. there's dream particles, fog, and if you fall you leave the room like a dream transition.

[hollow talon]

omg || Father of the flame || is such a cool design, I can't wait for mossbag to gather any piece of lore to explain his presence

[spare pendant]

no debate about it being a dream really

[ember river]

I am not replaying all of Hollow Knight just to see a specific cutscene

[spare pendant]

it's one of the few things we know about abyss creature

[whole holly]

we don't see us enter dream realm but it really resembles it and has every trait of dream realm

[whole holly]

youtube exists

[ember river]

Also, of course there's a debate, that the charm itself induces a dream isn't the same as "oh yeah now you can access an actual dream by walking through a door"

[ember river]

And I am looking for it now that someone has given some concrete evidence instead of a random unproven statement

[spare pendant]

precisely one of four things actually

1. It lives in the abyss
2. It controls dreams
3. It has a room in Godhome
4. It is strongly related to lifeblood

[edgy barn]

Does dying in the lifeblood zone kill you for real?

That would settle it

[spare pendant]

yeah but so does radiance fight

[whole holly]

i didn't give you unproven statement, how is that relevant to me?

[lucid fossil]

The dream particles are only seen near things that have control, like unn, nkg, radiance

[spare pendant]

i strongly suspect we'll get abyss creature lore in a silksong dlc

i think all of its lore was in hk dlcs so far

[twin dragon]

First dlc is gonna be city of steel for sure

[spare pendant]

maybe not first but one of them

[twin dragon]

That's the one that has been tweaked most

Mentioned in game too

[whole holly]

exiting the lifeblood room has same animation as exiting dream realm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz9XiDqCvPQ, skip to last part

[spare pendant]

i personally hope we get godhome dlc first but we probably won't

[twin dragon]

Imagine if it's related to city of steel

[ember river]

It wasn't to you

[whole holly]

well, datamining showed that God's Glory mode exist, but i don't have source for that someone else in channel said that

[eternal sigil]

my personal suspicion is that it's more likely to be later if not the last one released because otherwise it would need to be updated every time a new expansion is released, alongside the new expansion itself

[whole holly]

well, why did you say it to me, if it wasn't relevant to our conversation?

[spare pendant]

ive seen this too

[ember river]

As well as different points of access to the dream realm and memories, such as the dream bosses, essence spirits, and the white palace

[foggy fractal]

it'd be kinda odd for TC to not add at least some sort of boss refight system, even if its not connected to godhome

[ember river]

Because you were the one who replied to a conversation I was having

[spare pendant]

white palace is in the dream world

[ember river]

I'd say we will get a boss rush for sure

[foggy fractal]

god I hope so

https://tenor.com/view/black-guy-whtie-and-black-cry-praying-looking-up-gif-553441503240360994

[ember river]

Can you please read what I write?

[spare pendant]

it's not my fault you're contrarian, hope this helps !

[whole holly]

but your statement to me wasn't relevant to me, you should address person you want to send message to

[ember river]

I was asking for evidence so I can make an educated guess, how is that being contrarian? Also you clearly didn't even read my message

[spare pendant]

I clearly didn't read the message I responded to? The one whose contents I directly and clearly responded to?

[ember river]

Yes, the very message where I said "not only things that have control have the dream particles, things like entry points to the dream realm [...] such as the White Palace"

[spare pendant]

I know what you were saying. I was saying White Palace was a bad example because it proves my point, that the room is in the dream world, which has been well known information anyway.

[ember river]

Oh, back to that, the room simply cannot be in the dream realm

[spare pendant]

It simply is

[ember river]

You access every single instance through the dream nail, no exception to that

Case closed

[spare pendant]

Lmfao

[lucid fossil]

😭

[ember river]

That the abyss creature is related to dreams, or the charm itself can influence them I agree

[spare pendant]

All of those instances are you intruding in a dream. Abyss creature pulls you into a dream. This further proves my point

[whole holly]

yes but Abyss Creature is none of what you listed, i don't agree that Abyss Creature is higher being but you provided bad argument

[twin dragon]

To then what? kick you out?

[spare pendant]

It gifts you a charm and optionally an arcane egg

[ember river]

But that the lifeblood core is the one and only instance where you access the dream realm without a dream nail is something I won't agree with

[whole holly]

why do we have waking up scene we see when exiting dream realm

[twin dragon]

possibly to expand the control with that charm

[spare pendant]

Sucks, it's explicit canon?

[twin dragon]

If its related to lifeblood

[ember river]

The fuck you mean explicit

[spare pendant]

Possibly! Lifeblood seems to try and proliferate

[twin dragon]

It seems to be good for the organism, to an extent though

[ember river]

Why don't we have the falling asleep sequence we see when entering it?

[twin dragon]

Only good because it possibly wants to make the host strong

We've seen that in act 3 wormways

[spare pendant]

The absolutely massive dream particles, boundaries that let you fall out of the dream like in ss memories or certain dream sections, and the dream waking up animation when you grab the core

[whole holly]

that doesn't disprove my point, answer my question before i answer yours

[ember river]

Your point being?

[foggy fractal]

wow looking back at Hollow Knight's art its very jarring, not to say that its bad but the improvement is insane

[whole holly]

fact that we have exiting dream realm animation does not happen to regular rooms

[ember river]

Which boundaries? Isn't it full of spikes?
If there are actual pits that deposit you outside the room then it might be worth some consideration

[spare pendant]

It is not entirely full of spikes, there are areas you can fall out of the dream

[ember river]

I'm not saying it's a regular room, I'm saying it's not a dream you access physically

[twin dragon]

Still great, silksong's just too good

[ember river]

Let me look for them hold on

[foggy fractal]

its peak

[spare pendant]

Bottom left on the path to the arcane egg

[bitter berry]

Crazy they made joni kind of pretty, does not mirror lifebloods effects with how zango turned out

[whole holly]

when why do we see existing dream realm sequence? this is question you refuse to answer

[ember river]

Because we fall asleep or are induced into a dream after we pick the charm? Let me actually talk with Sylent, who was the one I was actually having the conversation with

[spare pendant]

the dream world is a physical place that you can physically enter, it makes sense that there are other entryways into it, although it's unexplained what these entryways are and how they work

[lethal burrow]

What are we talking about?

[elder seal]

Iirc the pale king practically banned lifeblood?

[whole holly]

maybe she didn't overdose, salubra and elina were also consumed it

[lethal burrow]

It was a taboo and it was deemed heretical

[spare pendant]

the hunter also consumed it

[twin dragon]

Zylotol injected it basically everywhere

[bitter berry]

Yeah I remember that, I just didn't understand that it was super dangerous until silksong, it was kind of neutral only hint at it being negative is in the abyss and Jonis, label. But zango proved that it was dangerous as hell

[twin dragon]

It spread from everywhere, anywhere

Unlike consuming it a bit

[ember river]

@spare pendant alright yeah, found it, seems similar to the bottom fog of the dreamer minds and the White Palace. It also seemingly restores all your lifeblood masks, which does hint at it being a dream.
However, you can still die apparently, which kinda contradicts that

[elder seal]

Is that cause the knight just isnt really affected by lifeblood since hes a vessel

[spare pendant]

Lifeblood is safe to consume in moderation but similar in some ways to the infection in excess

[bitter berry]

It honestly seems more dangerous than the infection, so in my understand most dangerous to least is void, silk, lifeblood, infection

[spare pendant]

You can die if you're physically in the dream world. Radiance is an example of this

[whole holly]

we fall asleep? or are induced into dream? does these things occur in game outside being in dream realm? lol, and multiple people can have conversation you only want to avoid arguing against me because you have no solid arguments

[twin dragon]

It kind of seems not alike to the infection to me

[ember river]

I am avoiding arguing with you because you intruded and keep demanding I answer

[ember river]

Oh true, radiance does kill you

[bitter berry]

That would make sense, it's never shown directly it's effects on "non bug" creatures until zango

[twin dragon]

It grows around stuff and spreads, but doesn't seem to take control

[ember river]

White Palace as well

[twin dragon]

(Aside from corpses)

[elder seal]

Iirc lifeblood pretty much infected most of wormways

[spare pendant]

I'd argue that Zylotl is definitely influenced like moss prophet was

[elder seal]

Maybe thats why the worms that keep coming out the roof stop spawning in areas with lifeblood

[bitter berry]

It very much did, to pretty much the same extent as infection did to crossroads

[ember river]

I guess the sheer amount of lifeblood overdose you have to give yourself to access the core room lets whatever creature is behind it to influence your mind and put you in a dream when you cross the doorway

[spare pendant]

we still see them, they've been overgrown and mutated

[foggy fractal]

I did not care for Wormways. It was good that lifeblood took over. 🐺

[twin dragon]

I mean it's only objective seems to be spread as much as it can

Unlike the infection

[lethal burrow]

it just really wants you to live

[elder seal]

Yes i believe its those worms that are attached to the roof but they are no longer as frequent or they look like they fused or smth

[bitter berry]

I mean it kind of seems like a parasite

[spare pendant]

it's possible, although how such a creature is expected to survive is insane considering the knight is... the knight

[elder seal]

They kinda look like they fused lol

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[edgy barn]

But all those innocent worms!

[whole holly]

intruded? i was present during convo, and conversations aren't invite only, channel exists so that everyone can contribute, if you don't have sufficient answer don't be afraid to admit it❤️

[elder seal]

I hate those worms

[mint furnace]

So you hate the bellbeast? Woah dude

Eirya don’t deserve it :(

[bitter berry]

No wormways hate it let me skip moorwing 💜

[elder seal]

Bellbeast is a worm?

[spare pendant]

obsidian user spotted omg i just got my setup working

[bitter berry]

It kind of resembles more of a Roly poly

[whole holly]

i feel same, Lifeblood infection is way more fun that haunting or void version of whatever haunting is

[mint furnace]

Bellbeast(s) were presumably bred wormway worms

[ember river]

To be fair, Radiance could overpower the Hollow Knight while having more stacked against her.
That room being a dream also makes you think if that entity (which apparently can also be spotted in godhome?) is truly in the abyss, or that door is just a way of communing with it

[spare pendant]

still haunting, the void just took over the silk threads

[elder seal]

The wormway worms that for some reason infinitely respawn are annoying

[agile coral]

does anyone know why the bell beast gives you a silk heart? is it just because of all the silk it was trapped in?

[whole holly]

yeah, i just wanted to give it name, or specify it

[spare pendant]

I am more inclined to believe the entity is physically in the dream world

Personally

[twin dragon]

pretty sure more of them appeared due to GMS trying to resist the void

We see that in the "ending"

[bitter berry]

So you can use silk spear I'd assume is the gameplay reason

[spare pendant]

it presumably found a silk heart, which is what got it stuck

[ember river]

So a third dream god? Could be, though it's weird that Seer only makes remarks about the Nightmare Heart taking a good chunk of it

[agile coral]

we're not in ss-gameplay we're in ss-lore

[agile coral]

okay so i was like only half correct thank you

[elder seal]

Void soaked silk pretty cool

[spare pendant]

the seer may not know about the entity since lifeblood was suppressed in hallownest, and the dream world seems vast

didn't comment on godhome either

[bitter berry]

I mean it just seems like the most likely reason for it to be there, some things aren't made into lore until after gameplay

[whole holly]

not as cool as Plasmium infection

[elder seal]

It does look pretty cool man

[ember river]

I'd theorize the dream world is essentially infinite, if everyone with a mind can influence it as seen with, say, Bretta or the Godseekers

[agile coral]

yeah but obviously i already know the gameplay answer and im in here because i wanted to know the lore answer

[spare pendant]

it's, at the very least, way bigger than the physical world we've seen so far of Hollow Knight

[ember river]

Yeah, but I'm wondering if it is actually present and the same creature, I haven't looked too much into it myself

[mint furnace]

It’s probably infinite

Just limited by how many people make

[whole holly]

well, i would say it is as vast as minds of bugs collectively

[spare pendant]

that sounds like an insult

"your knowledge is as vast as the minds of bugs"

[ember river]

lol

[whole holly]

well, in HK sense collective minds of bugs is impressive, in real life you would be right

[edgy barn]

It sounds like something a higher being would say to another.

[spare pendant]

it's actually interesting how many higher beings seem to be associated with the dream world. we have at least three, with a potential fourth, not counting godhome or void shenanigans

there are only like eight total?

[edgy barn]

higher beings?

[spare pendant]

i think so

[elder seal]

Arent pale beings considered higher?

[spare pendant]

not all

hornet is a pale being and not a higher being

[ember river]

Most Higher Beings seem to have a substantial presence in both realms

[edgy barn]

Pale King, White Lady, Unn, Nightmare Heart, Radiance, Lord of Shades and Grandmother Silk

[elder seal]

Iirc hornet was able to overthrow GMS since she is a pale being

[mint furnace]

It’s a sub class

[ember river]

Leaning more towards one or the other, but they can exert a large influence over both

[mint furnace]

I think anyone can

Hornet is just stronger than most

[edgy barn]

Seven

[mint furnace]

Also she still can’t, she needs the void pipe bomb to kill her

[spare pendant]

there are more than that, but they're unconfirmed. herald is confirmed 8th though

[elder seal]

Well in the normal ending she just straight up binds GMS

[whole holly]

wait what? where?

[ember river]

Binding isn't really killing though

[mint furnace]

Everyone’s favorite, black wyrm too

So much lore on that guy

[ember river]

Herald is confirmed as a higher being?

[elder seal]

Void pipe bomb sounds funny though

[spare pendant]

silksong reveals herald is a legendary being foretold to visit dying kingdoms to herald their fall, and easily outlives all manner of creature, including wyrms

basically depicts him as a force of nature

[whole holly]

i always though him as joke character

[spare pendant]

he is on a meta level

[whole holly]

he breaks forth wall ig

[ember river]

He's no joke, but I'm not exactly sure if he's a higher being either, he seems like his own category

[mint furnace]

He’s an escapee from hungry knight

[whole holly]

hope he doesn't travel to deltarune in 7th chapter

[spare pendant]

Here's my personal list including headcanons:

• Pale King
• White Lady
• Unn
• Radiance
• Nightmare Heart
• Void Entity // Knight (Godhome ending)
• Abyss Creature // Lifeblood
• Vespa
• Big Shrumal (Fungal Core)
• Mr. Mushroom // Great Herald
• Lord Fool
• Bardoofly
• Grand Mother Silk
• Weaver Queen Hornet
• Nyleth
• Greyroot? // Twisted Bud (Cursed ending)

Grubberflies, Fayforns, Weavers, Roots and Wyrms seem to be higher species as well. But because higher beings seem to only be individuals and not groups, I've neglected to include them

[edgy barn]

Blackwyrm is not even a confirmed higher being, or confirmed wyrm, or even a confirmed living creature for that matter

[spare pendant]

Blackwyrm is just a name yeah

[edgy barn]

It could be a river for all se knnow

[ember river]

I wouldn't say Vespa and the Old Shroom really have a chance

[mint furnace]

Nah, we all know blackwyrm was pale kings cousin

[ember river]

We've seen rulers that aren't higher beings

I'd equal Vespa to Karmelita

[whole holly]

Bardoofly though, is that related to bardoon?

[ember river]

Lord Fool doesn't look like one to me either, nor is there much going for him

[spare pendant]

Old Shroom is mostly vibes based but Vespa reminds me of the others since she's huge, creates her people and is seemingly very powerful

[spare pendant]

It is the theoretical grown up version of Bardoon, when he metamorphoses

Bardoofly sounds really funny

[edgy barn]

Vespa created her own people because she is a bee queen, she likely gave birth to them all.

[ember river]

Vespa is powerful, but the Hive seems to be a pretty natural occurence
Additionally, even those gods who create tribes are rarely the same as their subjects, Radiance is moth-like, but not a moth, GMS is a spider, but it's not quite like a Weaver, and Unn looks nothing like her tribe

[edgy barn]

We also have no reason to believe her power goes beyond "Very talented warrior"

[ember river]

And Old Shroom seems to be on the level as Bardoon, a wise old being but not powerful enough to be an actual HB

[spare pendant]

That is true but I am taking it very literally

[ember river]

Greyroot can seemingly ascend into one but isn't one by default IMO

[spare pendant]

Wise old being? Isn't it just a background element in fungal core

[ember river]

Well it seems wise enough to know the futility of PK's struggle

[spare pendant]

yeah I do agree with this, she's only one in the cursed ending

[silk dirge]

it has dream nail dialog

[spare pendant]

ohh i didn't know

[whole holly]

Nyleth, Abyss Creature, Fayforn and Big Shrumal are great contenders in my opinion

[silk dirge]

it says something like "pale wyrm... what good to foresee a demise unavoidable"

[ember river]

"Pale Wyrm, what good to foresee a demise unavoidable"

[spare pendant]

Fayforn would be an amazing contender if we didn't know there were multiple

[silk dirge]

id say nyleth and abyss creature out of those probably

fayforn i think is just a mythical beast type deal

[spare pendant]

It's not excluded, but it's lower chance

[silk dirge]

kinda like palestag

[ember river]

An evolved Bardoon sounds funny but I don't think it's likely

[edgy barn]

I mean there also were multiple wyrms. I still don't think Fayforn is one tho.

[spare pendant]

Bardoon is a caterpillar though

[whole holly]

yeah, i agree with you but i am kinda biased towards them

[spare pendant]

I'm actually unconvinced all wyrms are higher beings

[ember river]

I think they are all Higher Beings, but not Pale

[spare pendant]

I think the species itself is higher than most, but individuals might vary like roots do

[ember river]

Since they all seem to be able to grant sentience according to the Herald

[spare pendant]

Perhaps

I hope we get elaboration on pale being

[ember river]

But the Pale King is oftentimes refered to as the "Pale Wyrm", which seems to be a unique title

[spare pendant]

All we know is 4-5 specific beings who we know to be pale, pale stag, and sylphean oil

[whole holly]

plus i really love characters that create foliage and ecosystems like Isma, Nyleth and Unn, they contribute more to life in general than other's who create species for their own interests, you could say creating greenery is green flag

[silk dirge]

this is why unn best higher being

[ember river]

I wouldn't say the Pale Stag was a true pale being

[spare pendant]

yes, it was paletouched

whatever that means

[ember river]

It was jokingly weak and even its existence is put in doubt

[foggy fractal]

so is redery a red flag...

[silk dirge]

pale stag mightve never even been real

as hornet says

[whole holly]

yeah

[edgy barn]

To first requirement to be a pale being is existing

[silk dirge]

it could just be a family myth of verdania

[ember river]

Nyleth is a strong contender

[whole holly]

looking at FoTF, Trobbio and NKG... yeah

[foggy fractal]

[whole holly]

so it is just legend that materialized?

[whole holly]

what is THAT?

[spare pendant]

Nyleth fits the bill for higher being best because she's worshipped like Unn

Worship/notoriety seems to be a good giveaway for higher beings, though not the sole criteria

[ember river]

It does start Hornet's entry with "Myth made real in memory"

[edgy barn]

I don't like the idea of Nyleth being a higher being but I don't have anything to disprove it either.

[ember river]

Yep, though then I'm confused as to how Nyleth is dead or her heart has the same strength as the hearts of mortals

[whole holly]

not just that she seemingly empowered seth, she is the Voice and she created green life in same scale as unn not including mosskin

[ember river]

Maybe Nyleth was a case similar to Monomon?

[spare pendant]

not as big as unn but yeah

[pale grove]

is hornet's mom, Herrah the Beast, a weaver? cus she looks so different than any other weaver we have seen

[spare pendant]

greenpath was a huge chunk of hallownest

[whole holly]

bigger than Isma

[ember river]

She's definetely a weaver

[foggy fractal]

Andy

[ember river]

Isma was rather small though

[whole holly]

Andy the red flag

[spare pendant]

yes

[pale grove]

i mean yeah makes sense but she looks so different than any other weaver

[whole holly]

compared to Shellwood , yeah

[spare pendant]

that's because she probably wasn't originally intended as a weaver

[ember river]

You can see her original body's silhouette in White Defender's dream

[spare pendant]

it seems to be a retcon

[foggy fractal]

we don't have an explanation as to why unfortunately

[faint edge]

What u guys say wiht hk lore wise strongesz beings that arent higher beings and no demi gods too

[spare pendant]

for a possible in universe explanation, she was the queen of the Weavers and likely changed due to motherhood

[foggy fractal]

I mean shade lord kinda no diffs

[ember river]

Karmelita and Vespa are definetely up there, Weavers as well if you consider them valid

[spare pendant]

bell eater

[foggy fractal]

oh that aren't higher beings hm

[spare pendant]

hornet couldn't even defeat bell eater on her own

[whole holly]

what does Nyleth being. the Voice imply, game states that i think , Voice that chose Seth, but does she have voice related powers we don't see or do we not have enough information?

[ember river]

Seth is also very strong on his own

[pale grove]

sly

[silk dirge]

5 great knights

[ember river]

As seen in the Flea Festival

[foggy fractal]

would Khann be a sort of demi god ?

[faint edge]

Ye wanted to say seth pretty strong also

[edgy barn]

I think Karmelita, Vespa and Sly are up there

[silk dirge]

idk that coral bending is pretty sick tho

[whole juniper]

Hawnet is VOID

[spare pendant]

Dryya died to a bunch of mantises and we can assume they're all on that level

[faint edge]

U mean from hk lore? Like pale court mod?

[silk dirge]

yes

[foggy fractal]

would the five great knights be demi gods ?

[spare pendant]

No?

[edgy barn]

No

[faint edge]

Dont thinkbso

[pale grove]

nah they're just five strong bugs

[faint edge]

Phantom?

[pale grove]

they arent children of the pale king or anything

[whole juniper]

zemer could be a Demi god

[whole holly]

yeah, their name implies exactly that

[spare pendant]

Well, by the classical definition of demigod, yes the great knights are demigods. But most people here are referring to descendants of higher beings

[silk dirge]

i mean nkg isnt a higher being technically

[whole holly]

why?

[whole juniper]

it was made by one

[potent patio]

headcannon that first sinners name is Arachne

[spare pendant]

correct

[foggy fractal]

the five great knights of Hallownest

[whole holly]

Avatar of one

[whole juniper]

Bears resemblance to gms and has connection to pale flower

[faint edge]

He is like a vessel lowkey for a higher being

[whole juniper]

No he isn’t

[faint edge]

He still isnt a normal bug

[edgy barn]

He is the avatar of a higher being so even if he technically isn't one himself, he still a godly being

[spare pendant]

He does contain the nightmare heart

[pale grove]

i havent finished silksong yet but does hornet go back to hallownest or

[whole juniper]

Ok I didn’t say he was… why would he be a vessel

[whole holly]

that is very limited, Flower comes from lands she is from , which isn't confirmed to be pharloom at all

[faint edge]

He has the heart

[spare pendant]

Not like the vessels, just he's a literal vessel

[whole juniper]

The nightmare king

[upper copper]

What’s up with this creepy af room? Did the outcast just collect bodies?

[whole juniper]

Is not a vessel

[spare pendant]

each grimm is literally a vessel for the nightmare heart

[pale grove]

damn thats terrifying

[whole juniper]

How do you have a nightmare heart in the nightmare king

[faint edge]

Grim becomes the nightmare king sftet the heart

[ember river]

Trophies

[whole holly]

he meant Avatar, Vessel, not specifically vessels as in Knight's Siblings, but being that contains higher being

[whole juniper]

Yeah

[whole juniper]

That is not what is confusing

[faint edge]

Bro he becomes the nightmare king after the heart

[edgy barn]

He keeps the bodies of his prey as thropies. The empty rack was meant for Hornet

[whole juniper]

Nightmare king is never a vessel Grimm is

[upper copper]

Why is one of them is own kin?

[faint edge]

10/10 ragebait

[spare pendant]

grimm is the nightmare king

[whole juniper]

There is a clear difference

[edgy barn]

Gurr is an outcast

[obsidian quail]

why is Atla called the Weaver of Time? was she actually fucking with time?

[spare pendant]

nightmare king ≠ nightmare heart

[whole juniper]

nightmare king Grimm refers to his dream version

[faint edge]

So the knight is no vessel?

[whole holly]

she had lot of time, presumably

[whole juniper]

and that’s what you were all saying

[spare pendant]

they're the same person

[pale grove]

aint grimm just the avatar for the nightmare heart

[whole juniper]

how the fuck does nightmare king not containing the nightmare heart because they’re in the same realm connect to the knight

[whole holly]

yes

[ember river]

No, the Nightmare King is an avatar, a sort of aspect or incarnation of the Nightmare Heart
Normal Grimm is just a physical body to carry the Nightmare Heart in his dream, so a vessel, not the PK ones but for essentially the same purpose

[faint edge]

Like you say it the knight is no vessel after he becomes one wiht the void

[whole juniper]

exactly

[silk dirge]

also someone pointed out to me first sinner fucking weaves her dress right in front of you thats kinda sick

[ember river]

He's an outcast, probably for that reason

[whole juniper]

You’re just twisting my words just leave it be

[pale grove]

does hornet return back to hallownest after events of silksong?

[whole juniper]

This is what I was trying to say- nkg does not contain the heart but Grimm does

[sinful nimbus]

Whats the difference

[spare pendant]

probably not

[whole juniper]

Who knows

[spare pendant]

hornet abandoned hallownest for good

[ember river]

Yeah, that's correct

[whole holly]

this is most likely what he meant, but badly worded

[whole juniper]

@faint edge are you still confused

[ember river]

NKG comes directly from within the Heart, it cannot contain it

[pale grove]

i mean she calls herself protector of hallownest and after the knight either sealed radience or just outright defeated her the infection is gone

[spare pendant]

but hallownest is already dead

[sinful nimbus]

Sure one is a vessel and one isn't but they are both avatars

[obsidian quail]

what

[spare pendant]

she no longer has to play the sentinel of a dead kingdom

[ember river]

Well, yeah, as in a way for the Heart to interact with the world, that is correct

[whole juniper]

one is physical one isn’t

[pale grove]

well with infection gone all bugs are i assume back to being normal. she protected the kingdom while it was infected with basically 0 normal bugs around

[whole holly]

idk, she weaved time, she clearly had lot of time because she made biggest weavenest and eva is stored there

[silk dirge]

most bugs are dead

[sinful nimbus]

Physical or not they both represent him and his will

[ember river]

Most bugs returned to their normal state of being a corpse

[whole juniper]

yeah. You asked for a difference didn’t you

[obsidian quail]

how do u weave time