sk-lore

[sinful nimbus]

The underlying philosophy of respecting player choice has clearly changed

[clever monolith]

While yes in void heart ending you kill radience, radience is a God there isn't a true death for it

[spare pendant]

Hollow Knight ending only leads to Weaver Queen Hornet or Cursed ending

[wicked fossil]

Yeah considering they don't seem to hurt or wound the void in Act 3, just providing Hornet protection

[sudden pivot]

we see them actively lash out with it, one can assume they kill any who enter the whiteward and weren't targeting Hornet due to the fact that Sherma is heavily implied to have been in danger there, though granted they didn't start waking till Hornet showed up so perhaps you could actually use that scene to argue the oppisite the GMS has FULL control of the Whiteward corpses, regardless of the direct Whiteward experimenters though, I think the Silk dregs their ancestors have in their shells is still technically "theirs" but its so little they cant actually do anything with it, most importantly use their control over it to maintain autonomy over their bodies, instead those dregs of silk simply server as anchor points for GMS's strands

[clever monolith]

Just a longer and harder revival period

[spare pendant]

No?

[clever monolith]

Uhhh no?? Hollow knight ending leads to act 3 ending didn't you see the vessel save hornet after losing the everbloom?

[mighty jolt]

If you aren't subscribing to multiverse theory only 2 endings can be canon

[sudden pivot]

I dont know what to make of this statement, all due respect but thats just a blatant contradiction

[spare pendant]

That can't happen in the Hollow Knight ending since it dies in the black egg. That can only happen after dream no more or godhome

[valid compass]

oiii, ooiiiiiii. Lets discuss important lore once

[sinful nimbus]

I mean, it has, SS also doesn't account for all endings. When the underlying reasoning of the "All endings are canon" statement has changed I don't know why you would keep taking the conclusion as fact

[wicked fossil]

Ngl it's funny to just ignore him when he starts saying oii, oiiii

[spare pendant]

You don't need multiverse theory to say there are multiple conflicting canon endings

[fossil ledge]

I see. What about first generation bugs that had silk injected into them, but aren't the abominations we encounter in Whiteward?

[clever monolith]

I'm going off most mythology lol while you can "kill Zeus" though within time he could potentially come back with less strength

[spare pendant]

it hasn't been contradicted, just because silksong doesn't follow from every ending doesn't mean every ending isn't Canon

[spare pendant]

you cannot kill Zeus

[valid compass]

i dont wanna talk to him lol i just want him screaming for me

[sinful nimbus]

🥴

[clever monolith]

I'm sayin hollow knight the game not the boss, God home dream no more leads to act 3 SS ending

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I get that

[sudden pivot]

if you dragged Zeus into Chaos he would absolutely die forever for real, which is basically what you do to Radiance in Embrace the Void

[mighty jolt]

We know void can kill gods from two different dead gods other than Radiance

[spare pendant]

when I said the hollow knight ending, I was referring to the ending where you kill thk without void heart

[clever monolith]

Ohhhh

[kindred verge]

why are we acting like there's any one canon for actual Greek mythology

[mighty jolt]

Anyways gnite peeps have fun with your discussions

[spare pendant]

you cannot kill Zeus

[sudden pivot]

???? where did anything I say imply that

[fossil ledge]

I don't know why but I found this line very funny, giggled out loud xD

[kindred verge]

Zeus isn't real, whether you can or can't kill him is entirely dependent on the rules a given author writes

[clever monolith]

I thought it just kind "consumed them" and with the power radience has I thought they'd be able to come back weaker in any sense

[spare pendant]

greek religion isn't a comic book 😔

[valid compass]

every void related discussion turns into a shitshow over here lol

[spare pendant]

team cherry keeps edging us on void lore

[clever monolith]

The void is a weird being

[solemn hinge]

Void is funny

[clever monolith]

Like one second it is a pseudo father to the knight the next it's trying to kill hornet cause we entered it wrong like??

[fossil ledge]

I mean, we literally see the Radiance obliterated in Embrace the Void

[sudden pivot]

prettyyyyyy sure hes prophesied to get got by Athena in the end but hey, im not gonna argue it, not really something I have much education on or passion about

[fossil ledge]

Not sure how much deader a being could be?

[earnest badge]

Can someone recap me on the lore

[solemn hinge]

I think the Void is overall a force for evil tho

[wicked fossil]

I'm still pondering that there are people who are capable of summoning void (i.e. the Snail Shamans plus the vassals)

[fossil ledge]

Watch a mossbag video, if you're referring to HK

[solemn hinge]

Even if it's the lesser evil in HK

[sudden pivot]

Confessor Jiji too dont forget the goat

[wicked fossil]

I think it's a neutral force that's hostile to things that come near it

[earnest badge]

Referring to SS

[kindred verge]

Eh, evil implies intent. The Void seems chill as long as people don't actively summon it to use as a weapon.

[earnest badge]

Referring to SS

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I was referring to Jiji as well though with the assumption she's a vassal like Sula

[fossil ledge]

Ah, that would be extensive

[spare pendant]

Dionysus is the heir, not Athena. And the point of those myths is that each generation is prophesized to be overthrown by the next, but Zeus is so perfect that he will never be overthrown. Maybe boring from a narrative perspective, but they are religious stories lol

[sudden pivot]

Hornet's hunter's notes on the Void Tendrils directly imply intent

[solemn hinge]

That is fair

[fossil ledge]

Wasn't he scared or bothered by the Fates, though?

[solemn hinge]

But I think it's fair to say it's done quite a bit of harm

[clever monolith]

I wanna see Jiji or SS jinn make an appearance in SS

[spare pendant]

He's the king of the Fates

He rules them specifically, separate from anything else

[clever monolith]

Cause we already saw a potential enemy that looks like SS jinn

[kindred verge]

i disagree with this reading, but that's a subjective thing

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I get that though I'm more on board for the Steel Assassins since they're not even in the game

[fossil ledge]

I could've sworn it had been an issue for him at some point that they had power over him

[clever monolith]

Def

[fossil ledge]

Or a concern at least

[cedar owl]

I won't say it's consciously evil, but it does literally attack anything with a soul

[spare pendant]

There may have been a modern or ancient myth with that, I don't know. It for sure wasn't a common element

[sudden pivot]

fair enough!! more power to you!!! ^^

[fossil ledge]

Oh, I see

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I think that's fair way of putting it

[cedar owl]

like, void is on the same level of evilness as radiation

[clever monolith]

I wanna know what "race" jinn is part of cause are they just a steel being like a God of the steel soul and why do they like eggs?

[sudden pivot]

god i should have gone to sleep forever ago 😭

[solemn hinge]

Yeah that's kinda a good way to put it

[fossil ledge]

Same lol

[solemn hinge]

Or like, the Flu

[cedar owl]

actually, no radiation is less evil than void, at least we can use it for energy

[fossil ledge]

I'm barely awake atm xD

[solemn hinge]

Well the Void did have use in getting rid of the Infection soooo

[fossil ledge]

The Pale King literally attributes "eternity potential" to the void

[sudden pivot]

sorry for keeping you up, appreciate having someone good-mannered to chat with though!!! :D

[spare pendant]

Jinn is a steel being collecting eggs for her friend, JiJi

[kindred verge]

Technically Void is responsible for ending the Infection, so it's also arguably useful if used carefully

[clever monolith]

Ah

[solemn hinge]

Which, tbf, it wasn't used super carefully

[spare pendant]

Steel bugs seem to have non-steel bug friends of a similar species to Jiji

[sudden pivot]

yeah like she calls them disgusting but says she has a friend who likes them and she'll give them to him

[kindred verge]

Yeah, that's valid

[cedar owl]

yeah thats true

[fossil ledge]

That's quite alright, not your fault, I chose to stay up lol. And likewise, it's been a lot of fun!

[clever monolith]

Only time I've takes to jinn is during randomizers so I didn't know lol

[sudden pivot]

"Whats that? Did you say haphazardly shove it into molds and then stuff it into a suit of armor along with the Soul thats animating said suit of armor and find out what happens?" -Pale King

[kindred verge]

PK no

[wicked fossil]

I still ponder the purpose of Wingmoulds

Like are they just tests or are they floating around the White Palace for a reason?

[kindred verge]

PK is just a big parkour fan

[sudden pivot]

I think Pale King was just a Parkour enthusiast, like he probably just ran through PoP for fun, maybe thats how him and THK bonded idk lmao

im half joking

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I imagine that's how Hornet and THK got around the White Palace

[fossil ledge]

The interesting thing is they seem to be pre Dream world White Palace, so my guess is either ambiance curiosities or sentries of some kind

[wicked fossil]

Plus the PK's workshop having Kingsmould and Wingmould stuff

Where he created them it seems

[sudden pivot]

I have a question about Hallownest society

Hunter says that even the common bug had grown soft from generations of having their food served to them on a whim, and the only underclass we really know of is the Maggots, is that not to imply that like the vast majority of the Kingdom's prosperity was built off Maggot slavery?

[ember river]

The void isn't really evil

It's just there, radiation too

[modest coyote]

no

[ember river]

Not really, it could just mean that Hallownest had an abundant supply of food and they didn't have to work for it

And, you know, having easy access to food doesn't immediately make your society be based on slavery

I think Aldi doesn't own slaves

[sudden pivot]

"The bugs of old Hallownest did not hunt their own food, they had it brought to them. That's why they were so weak. That's why their kingdom crumbled into dust and faded away!"

I feel like "they had it brought to them" is worded very specifically

[ember river]

Also, maggots show up way after Hallownest exploded

[fossil ledge]

I gathered that this was relative to the perspective of the Hunter, to personally hunts and eats his prey in the moment. It seemed that to me, anyone who prepares or has someone prepare their food for them he would describe this way

[ember river]

That text explicitly says it's because they don't hunt it

[solemn hinge]

Yeah iunno I doubt Hunter isn't a tad biased

[modest coyote]

pale king was the goat

[ember river]

You can have your food doordashed and it's still not slavery

[modest coyote]

hunter just pissed off cause society means not everyone has to hunt and gather

[kindred verge]

I mean Doordashing feels pretty close to slavery ngl but technically it isn't I suppose

[modest coyote]

hunter is basically ted krazinksi

[solemn hinge]

Though Hunter is surprisingly knowledgable

[sudden pivot]

and the next statement is that it was brought to them, im saying every bug lived this lavishly so there was no one to do the work to deliver the food, except for the one obvious underclass

[ember river]

The industrial revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the bug race

[solemn hinge]

fym he knows who The Radiance is

[fossil ledge]

As for the Maggots, I was also curious about this, still am actually. Thing is, we only ever see three of them in the entire game. If they were as abundant as the entry makes them seem, why aren't they everywhere?

[ember river]

Not everyone lived lavishly

[sudden pivot]

they literally lost their hard shells and claws from generations of all living like kings

[fossil ledge]

We know not every bug lived this way as there are a number of chef bugs preparing food in a kitchen, right?

Don't think these were implied to be slaves

[terse warren]

It's pretty sure they mean that as in they're not forced to hunt anymore because they are given conscience by the beacon

[ember river]

I don't really know how it works, but I feel like you can just leave and work elsewhere if you don't like it.
You can't really do that as a slave

[terse warren]

You're not forced into it, you're paid... The hell?

[ember river]

That's most likely metaphorical

[terse wadi]

The pyraminds were actually built by architects who were mostly paid in food, contrary to how it's portrayed

[fossil ledge]

To be fair, they likely wouldn't have been much stronger in their primal forms, if the Quirrel comic is anything to go by. The Hunter would still have considered them pathetic and weak lol

[ember river]

To be fair you are expected to still deliver it in the middle of the night and terrible weather conditions

[solemn hinge]

To be fair, the more hunter-esque tribes do seem to be better off, as proven by the Mantises

[terse wadi]

A lot of To be fairs

[fossil ledge]

You mean in Ancient Egypt IRL?

[solemn hinge]

The only ones that got infected were ones that willingly did so

[ember river]

To be fair, to be fair is a fairly used expression

[terse warren]

It's still not even close to slavery 😭

[solemn hinge]

I say that a lot lmao

[fossil ledge]

Of course, but what does that have to do with HK?

[terse wadi]

Yuh

[ember river]

I know

[sudden pivot]

I dont read it that way but I repsect that that's subjective ^^

[fair zealot]

-# capitalism makes slaves of us all

[fossil ledge]

Real xD

[solemn hinge]

It is interesting to see how the Infection actually... infects, cause it doesn't even seem THAT bad

[terse wadi]

idk, an example of misinformation on supposed slave labour felt relevant to the topic

[ember river]

You don't read it that way because it furthers your original conception, the only implication of Hallownest having something akin to slaves is Hornet thinking that she may find something similar to the underworkers if she dug deep into the foundations of Hallownest

[solemn hinge]

It was really easy to snap Sly and Bretta out of it

[ember river]

And sly

[solemn hinge]

Oh oops

[terse wadi]

Doesn't it get worse the more you resist

[solemn hinge]

I said Tiso instead of Sly whoops lmao

[sudden pivot]

those chef bugs were also super well fed at least the one ghost we talk to is though granted hes implied to have been a bit bigger than the rest, my interpetation was that the higher classes of the City of Tears began having to feed themselves after the gates closed but I get thats a very subjective interpetation :3

[ember river]

The thing about the infection is that it can also get you while you sleep, and it's often enticing

[terse wadi]

In fairness, I don't think the resisted that hard

[fair zealot]

isn't it easy to snap them out of it because they're in the early stages of becoming infected

[terse wadi]

^

[solemn hinge]

Yeah, but it seems like at least in the early stages, its easy to just catch it if someone helps you out

[terse wadi]

Yeah

[solemn hinge]

I assume that's how the mantises make sure no one gets infected

[ember river]

You can't snap Myla out of it

[terse wadi]

You're kinda cooked if late stage

[ember river]

Even when she's not hostile

That early stage is likely to last a very short time

[terse wadi]

I think myla was long gone she was just resisting, which you know, makes it worse

[fair zealot]

hard to have someone help you out when 98% of the kingdom is dead and/or infected

[sudden pivot]

doesn't it mainly get you while you're alseep? like I interpreted it as phase 1 of being infected is falling asleep but if it finds you while you're asleep you just skip to the next phase

[fossil ledge]

I found this to be an odd notion for Hornet to make. Hasn't she seen every inch of the kingdom in the (presumably) centuries she's been guarding it?

[ember river]

Yeah, it spreads through dreams

[fossil ledge]

Dreams and obsessions

[ember river]

Not like literally doing archeology, I think she means looking more into how things worked

[sudden pivot]

the only thing that implies it is >"thing that very heavily implies it and is consistent with my previous argument" ????

[fossil ledge]

Well yes, this too. Wouldn't she have seen all that already? There isn't really anything like what we see in Pharloom

[fair zealot]

(i don't think dreams in the context of hollow knight is referring to literal dreams you have while sleeping)

[ember river]

It is the only base for your argument

[terse wadi]

Radiance would have had a platform to stand on if she only attacked the Moths for betraying her, but the fact she attacked a lot of innocent bugs with the infection really has me having no sympathy for her plight, glad she's canonically dead in SoV

[fossil ledge]

Oh, I see. Fair enough I suppose

[ember river]

Eh, Hornet doesn't care about the past all that much I'd say

[fossil ledge]

I always assumed everyone died very quickly after the gates closed with how aggressive the infection is. I doubt they fed themselves for long considering the circumstances, right?

[sudden pivot]

more of a base than you've provided for the argument of it not being based on slave labor, like ive done my burden of proof ive provided my evidence about the Hunter's Journal and thank you for that Hornet statement I didnt know about which very heavily corroborates it, so now you respond with your counterargument?

[ember river]

I think it's ambiguous, literal dreams are definetely a part (for instance, the dreamers)

[fossil ledge]

Sure, but not even check it out of boredom in centuries?

Feels like a bit of a stretch

[ember river]

Those arguments from the original journal are pure bogus and misinterpretation

[sudden pivot]

according to what source?

[outer cape]

this implies that one time there was a savage beast fly duo

[ember river]

According to the fact that they don't fucking claim food was brought in by slaves?

[terse wadi]

dreams (in the HK universe) seem to be the expanse of the sleeping world less so the imagination of others and more a metaphysical place that actually exists

[terse wadi]

trio*

[ember river]

I'm baffled at how you read that bugs stopped hunting and became weak and immediately went "Oh yeah these guys were basically romans"

[outer cape]

yeah mb

[solemn hinge]

I find it a lot more likely they just went to agriculture or smth

Like how humans did in real life

[ember river]

Having food handed to you is what happens when you have a functional society and supply chain

[terse wadi]

Let's be real we'd all be cooked if we no longer had grocerie stores all of a sudden

[fossil ledge]

Regardless, my answer to this question would be no, generally for two reasons. One that we only see three Maggots in the entire game. Two, that we see bugs in all kinds of working environments that don't seem to be slaves, from guards, to chefs, to builders, to servants

That said, I'm still somewhat in doubt cause of that entry, but beside that entry, there's nothing to go off of

[fair zealot]

i imagine she's also considering the part where maggots are "forced to do menial labor"

[sudden pivot]

the Hunter directly implies it, and you haven't provided anything implying the opposite, you can disagree with my reading of the Hunter's note thats fine, but thats subjective, no need for the aggression, dont worry I get it though I get way more heated during lore arguments than I would like ^^;

[ember river]

Long after Hallownest fell, might be by some other settlement or something

[wicked fossil]

Thinking about it, it's kinda interesting that for as much as an ahole as Cardinaus is, he's the last living member of the Citadel's three main groups, what with Twelfth Architect shutting down and Conductor Ballador dying

[ember river]

Where does he imply it other than in you reading the entries in bad faith and with a preconceived idea?

[terse wadi]

surprised he still had reverence for the pontiff, seems like the type to covet his position

[ember river]

"Directly imply" isn't a sentence that could be interpreted as vaguely alluding to, if at all

[wicked fossil]

Mhm, seems the Vaultkeepers' work will continue through him while the Architects and Conductors are gone

[fossil ledge]

He did covet his position, but if he had no reverence for it then it would kind of be meaningless to covet it, right?

[terse wadi]

Yup

I know this technically doesn't matter, but I wonder if Popes in Pharloom are given names like irl, kind of like how their pope name isn't their real name

[fossil ledge]

I'm also curious

Though nothing we see implies this, so probably not

[sudden pivot]

see, this the thing, you're assuming my position is in bad faith and I guess not one that I came to natrually upon reviewing the evidence but rather something I initally thought while playing the game and then sought out evidence to the ends of? I can assure you thats not true, I couldn't have even told you City of Tears was the capital of Hallownest by the time I beat Radiance the first time I really was not paying much attention, and it feels to me by assuming my intentions are bad and using that assumption and exclusively that assumption to diregard my points, that thats actually in pretty bad faith on your part :/

[terse wadi]

True, but we never learn the dead popes name so I'll suck in my copium for as long as I can

[ember river]

You grabbed an entry that has nothing to do with slavery, went "It's pretty obvious" and didn't move from that point when we showed arguments, nor did you refute such arguments

[fossil ledge]

Well said. We should be careful to not put intentions and words in the mouths of others when debating, as it isn't good practice

[ember river]

Sounds to me like you made that shit up

[outer cape]

this could be the || 3rd pinstress||
||some ppl say that the 3rd one is the one also dead in ducts holding the wreath of purity||

[fossil ledge]

This being well said, btw

[terse wadi]

I do think it's the WoP one too because it has a similar tent

[terse warren]

That's just a stiltkin

[blissful harbor]

id thst not a stilkin whatever the moss dudes in bile are

[wicked fossil]

I think that's just one of the stillkin enemies whereas the Putrified Ducts one is certainly more distinct

[fair zealot]

the pinstresses seem to be the same or similar species to the stilkin

[fossil ledge]

To me that seems like a trap-setting stilkin

[wicked fossil]

Plus a connection to the craws given those balloon/inflated ball things in Craw Lake and Pinstress' home

[outer cape]

the pinstresses are stiltkin

[ember river]

Yeah it looks like the tall trappers

[terse warren]

The Bilewater one literally talks about her sisters with Needolin, she has a pin in her house, and the house is a balloon house. There's no doubt that's the third Pinstress

[outer cape]

ik that

[fossil ledge]

Sounds good xD

[ember river]

Also aren't there only 3 sisters?

[sudden pivot]

having something brought to you has nothing to do with servitude? like you have to come up with an alternative way to explain that line if you dont like my interpretation, even if you just wanna say the Hunter's biased thats fine but you cant just ignore it and its implications, and no one has shown me any arguments your only argument so far has been that im supposedly arguing in bad faith

[terse wadi]

The Wreath of purity one is def a pintress but the rest are stilkin

[fossil ledge]

There were more before, but they are implied to have been eliminated by the choristors

[ember river]

I guess that makes truck drivers actual serfs

[fossil ledge]

In-game we only see three, yes

[outer cape]

thats what i said

[ember river]

Or any sort of logistics

[fair zealot]

to me it sounds like koal is perfectly willing to drop it but gasattack is continually, aggressively, pushing it :p

[sudden pivot]

I hate to be this person, but, kind of a textbook strawman

[terse wadi]

Only 3 confirmed sisters but it was an entire order so likely more

[fossil ledge]

Indeed

[fair zealot]

that makes me curious if they were literal sisters or perhaps just called each other that

[fossil ledge]

Confirmed to not be blood related

I believe by Seamstress' Needolin dialogue

[wary plover]

Why do people say there are only 3 pi stresses

[terse wadi]

sisters in arms and or blood I presume, but I think Pintress and seamstress in particular might be biological sisters

But idk

[fair zealot]

because if you assume pi is 3 you will be stressed idk this sounded better in my head

[fossil ledge]

Apparently not. Perhaps the one that died in Putrified Ducts, then?

[wary plover]

It's funny because I get it

[sudden pivot]

I think Pinstress Needolin dialouge imples there were a good few more but they were slaughtered by the Citadel, not like a whole ton but maybe a dozen or two

[outer cape]

thats more likely

[fossil ledge]

Indeed, there was an order of them. Enough to make up an organisation but not enough to stand a chance against the choristors

I'm also guessing a couple of dozen or so

[glossy badger]

I would agree about there being an underclass but it doesn't exactly mean slavery. They could've been paid well for all we know. But it's not a bad interpretation when we look at the history of aristocrats irl

[sudden pivot]

they say that they turned their teachings against them right? by sheer numbers to ability on the field I feel like it would take so many more Chioristers to take down that many Pinsteresses to where it wouldn't be worth it, so I think the Sentinels were probably the front lines against the Pinstresses, possibly the Choirs as well given the Seamstress

oop hit enter on accident

[terse wadi]

feels like a Mr Mushroom moment

[wicked fossil]

It's still interesting that Second Sentinel has Pinstress' Needle Strike attack, likely due to the Citadel Bugs passing on the Pinmaster's knowledge and training into their machines

[fossil ledge]

Indeed. They learned the art of wielding a pin needle from then, then betrayed and apparently killed all the ones they could

[ember river]

Okay, actual argument.
That sentence starts with the Hunter, known to despise those who don't survive on their own, hunt their prey and are strong enough to fend for themselves, mentions how most bugs of Hallownest had grown weak over them not hunting their food and having it brought to them.
In that context, it makes much more sense to claim that he's refering to logistics and convenience than to actual slavery.
Logically, there's no reason why that should be interpreted as slavery or even serfdom, especially when there's no more supporting evidence other than maggots that had hopes on False Knight to free them from being forced to do menial labour, even though most of Hallownest is in shambles and has been for a long time.

Additionally, some of the harder works, like maintaining the roads or mining crystals were performed by willing bugs as seen ingame.

[terse wadi]

"Oh, excuse me"

[terse wadi]

I would presume a common source

[sudden pivot]

read the updated message :3

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I think that's likely

[fair zealot]

yeah it is pretty clear that there are distinct class differences in hallownest, given how the city of tears is divided

[fossil ledge]

Yes! This is mostly likely the case, at least partially. It's worth noting the Second Sentinel wields scissor blades, not pin needles, though. Different weapon with different techniques and balance to it I would guess

[wicked fossil]

I do think the Sentinels were probably a way of preserving the pinmasters' training

[terse wadi]

Eat the rich

[ember river]

Not to mention the only higher class of Hallownest, the ones who lived lavishly and could even afford a serf are the dandys in the City of Tears, who indeed had servants and butlers, but slaves are neither seen nor mentioned

[wicked fossil]

Oh true

[fair zealot]

poggy thorax?

[glossy badger]

For sure

[fossil ledge]

It's indeed quite possible, now that you mention it. I hadn't thought of that

[fair zealot]

i think you're in the wrong channel

[terse wadi]

huh

[drifting idol]

sry sry

[glossy badger]

Did the seamstress get lucky that the 4th chorus had a bunch of rocks fall on top of it and knock it out or did she set a trap

[terse wadi]

Bro asking about barbed bracelet

[fair zealot]

he doesn't know about poggy thorax
(ghost in eastern city of tears who was a victim of cannibalism after the lockdown)

[terse wadi]

I just forgor, it's been a while

[terse wadi]

probably a mix of both

[wicked fossil]

I can only assume she did something similar to what Hornet does at the end of the fight though it only dropped a ton of a rocks rather than an explosive one

[fossil ledge]

Those were my thoughts too

She probably duelled it, then triggered the explosive rock to fall on it

[vague whale]

he doesn't know...

[fossil ledge]

Not sure why she left her pin there, probably because she renounced her art, though abandoning her weapon given the state of things seems needlessly risky

[fair zealot]

-# except that he just said that he does

[glossy badger]

Kinda like yoda

[terse wadi]

Anyone find it spooky how the two robots sentinel and architect adapt to rebelling against their intended purpose due to the citadels societal collapse than some living bugs there do

[fossil ledge]

Perhaps the reason she renounced her art was because it was a close call or something?

[wicked fossil]

She probably thought she had taken the Citadel's largest attempt at wiping her

[fossil ledge]

Kind of, yes

[wicked fossil]

*taken out

and presumed they wouldn't be sending any more

[fossil ledge]

Unlike most bugs they seem to have an actual consciousness and free thought

Or well, free to a certain extent, anyway

[lean temple]

There are more pins inside her home, in cushions

[fair zealot]

i would expect a member of the pinstresses' order to have more than one pin tbf

[fossil ledge]

Oh, then I guess that's why. Seems I missed those lol

[terse wadi]

True, but based on our understanding of robotics, it's pretty cool

[wicked fossil]

I wonder if the third Pinstress sister not having her home elevated in the air like the other two put her at a disadvantage

Though tbf, there doesn't seem to be much room to raise it up in the room she's dead in

[lean temple]

Potentially

[fossil ledge]

It is indeed! Given a single gleamfly seems to leave the shells of cogbugs upon defeat, I feel like perhaps this is what contributes to their consciousness

[lean temple]

Doesn't help she decided to set up shop in bilewater

[glossy badger]

Yeah she uses her pins for sewing

[wicked fossil]

Plus Needolin dialogue from Fourth Chorus saying stuff like we are one and we are many

While many of those flies come out upon defeat

[fair zealot]

i mean maybe it was? considering their homes are balloons and i don't think a torn up balloon is very good at floating

[fossil ledge]

True, but this could just be a reference to the fact that there's multiple chorus unit all programmed for the same purpose

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I get that

[wicked fossil]

Oh true

[ebon silo]

Wait wtf guys y'know how karmelita has 2 bodyguards right they're quite unique and only appears in the gauntlet but it turns out one of them got made for a trophy by the thief

[fair zealot]

but now that i think about it, seamstress had the hot air from the lava, and pinstress had the wind in the blasted steps, I'm not really seeing a similar force that could keep the ducts pinstress' balloon afloat even if intact

[ebon silo]

I wonder where the other one go but it could be the trader but different designs says otherwise

[fossil ledge]

My guess is that noxious gas that also keeps the mutated muckroaches afloat

[terse wadi]

Gurr hunted one of them yes

[wicked fossil]

That is a pretty good point now that you mention it

[fair zealot]

the two we see guarding karmelita are in the past, so it could be one of them is the same as the one we see dead in the present

[amber bridge]

Question, does the „To Be Continued“ mainly come from the Mushroom ending, or is it actually tied to the Sister of Void Ending? Asking due to the probability of TC‘s possible desire to expand Silksong with a new Act, 4 (given it is confirmed we‘ll get DLC)

[wicked fossil]

I kinda presume another game set in the HK universe but we don't know that for sure

Either that or Mr Mushroom's appearing in their next game even if it might not be HK

[fossil ledge]

It's a Mr. Mushroom thing

Pretty sure the same thing appears in the Hollow Knight Mr. Mushroom ending

[terse wadi]

If HK's Mr Mushroom cutscene tells us anythin,it's the next game not any dlc

[amber bridge]

Next game in what, 10 years?

[fair zealot]

the mutated muckroaches do have (tiny) wings at least but idk

[terse wadi]

perhaps, who knows

Gonna be DLCs for the forseeable future

[sudden pivot]

oooooo I think the point about the mining bugs is really good, I will address that but firstly about the Hunter's personality, yes he despised the citizens of Hallownest for their weakness but more so for how prideful they were despite their weakness, we can see that weakness isnt a trait that inherently inspires anger in the Hunter, more so just boredom, he specifically notes the fact that they considered themselves "civilized" compared to the other peoples of Hallownest for example, the point being that the Hunter didnt just dislike them but had genuine criticisms of them, while I think it's fair to say that its a leap in logic to immediately go to the furthest possible interpretation of mass maggot-slavery, I do think its also a bit strange to assume that there was no servitude, serfdom, or slavery happening whatsoever when we know of at least one explicitly slave class in the kingdom, and the fact that they again literally lost their claws, hard shells, and venom due to generations of having no need for them, I think a good argument to your point would be the Gluttonous Husk's Journal Entry which can be read as them having had to hunt in their youth before becoming wealthy, but I would argue can also be read as being about the citizens of Hallownest as a whole slowly abandoning hunting as they lost the need for it as their kingdom grew, where the Crystal Peaks bugs are concerned we know that the citizens of Hallownest highly prize those crystals and enjoy being around them, so its highly possible being a miner was in fact seen as a privilege, I mean just look at Myla, that being said I think this is a good road of argumentation for you to go down if you can find other examples of Hallownest bugs doing arduous tasks, in conclusion, while I appreciate that I made an undue exaggeration, I still think one really has to stretch their suspension of disbelief to believe forced labor wasnt a very common occurrence in Hallownest

[wicked fossil]

I just hope we might get a DLC of exploring Sands of Karak as it originally was

[modest coyote]

i hope we get a lot of dlc

[terse wadi]

I'm not gonna read that, but happy for you, or sorry that it happened

[terse wadi]

same

[wicked fossil]

Considering the original map Team Cherry showed off recently, damn Coral Forest seemed bigger

[fossil ledge]

Doesn't Hornet comment on them being held afloat by the noxious gas?

[terse wadi]

At the very least all the content they originally planned to be part of base game but just decided to release it after so long, so a lot probably

[ebon silo]

I wish silksongs regions were like 10x bigger I wonder why they scrapped it so many times

[modest coyote]

i mean the map is like 2x the size of hk

[terse wadi]

idk

But considering Money is no longer an issue they could easily readd scrapped ideas

[ebon silo]

Not enough 🗣️

[wicked fossil]

I do wonder if the DLCs will be more ambitious than HK's

[terse wadi]

probably

[wicked fossil]

Give us more meat to chew on before the next

[fossil ledge]

Another example would be the operation to develop the Tramway

[ebon silo]

Considering Halloween is around the corner I would say some sort of...troupe

[modest coyote]

we arent getting grimm

[wicked fossil]

Yeah either that or some Steel Assasins though we still don't know about that

[amber bridge]

Silksong feels too fantastically packed to be abandoned after maybe 3-5 years. I honestly see more potential if TC stuck to Silksong and simply kept expanding the game, allowing for more longevity.

[ebon silo]

I know

[terse wadi]

5 bosses, silksoul mode and HoG

[modest coyote]

i also dont want grimm

[ebon silo]

Why

[wicked fossil]

Yeah considering the Grimm Troupe and Godmaster stuff in HK, we could see more stuff added to Act 3

[terse wadi]

that's literally their plan

[modest coyote]

one good thing about silksong as a sequel is almost all of it is brand new stuff

[edgy barn]

We already got him once. TC can come up with something new

[ebon silo]

Garauntee yes some sort of city of steel update might come

[modest coyote]

one easy way of killing any series is by just reusing content from previous games instead of doing something new

[wicked fossil]

Part of me is hoping for an Abyss expansion since that was one of the backer goals

[ebon silo]

Dream queen the opposite of nightmare king oh wait that's the fucking radiance

[wicked fossil]

Idk, I'm just kinda down to see Abyss bosses

[terse wadi]

hopefully

[edgy barn]

It also wouldn't make sense lorewise, Pharloom is not dead

[amber bridge]

Well, that’s gonna depend on how much TC wants them back. Lore wise I mean the Kingdom might as well be dying, no? I‘d imagine that Grimm Troupe can become accessible in Act 3, as Act 2 the kingdom is still somewhat „alive“ but barely.

[terse wadi]

^

[modest coyote]

look i WOULDNT mind having a godhome where we could fight hollowknight bosses with hornet

[terse wadi]

dying isn't dead

[modest coyote]

BUT: i dont want that to be part of the lore

i think it would be a cool thing to have

[ebon silo]

I mean obviously

[lean temple]

She does

[terse wadi]

The kingdom has to be Dead

Rotting on the ground

[ebon silo]

who gon nurture the grimmchild

[modest coyote]

i want new people new characters new things

[terse wadi]

same

[lean temple]

I don't think Grimm would like arriving in the middle of the Void apocalypse

[glad jacinth]

well we have wisp thicket

from what I understand it’s from the troupe

[wicked fossil]

I still wonder what the deal is with Wisp Thicket, like what is Father of the Flame meant to be

Does this place and its inhabitants have anything to do with the Citadel or is it just an isolated faction

[terse wadi]

is it really any different from arriving in an orange juice apocolypse, not that I disagree with you

[glad jacinth]

possibly a sort of proto-troupe?

[ebon silo]

For sure godhome or something similar is going to be added and steel expansion yes but other than that I do have a proposal that's been said in here for like the millionth time is like an upgraded version of the needolin making us travel the memories of an entire region not just into someone's memory but an entire region to see what it was before the haunting

[worldly onyx]

I mean grimm does really like dying kingdoms, an apocalypse would be the perfect source to feed off

[fossil ledge]

I will say, Hunter's remarks on the loss of defensive and offensive capabilities of the citizens of Hallownest seems to be more of a general statement regarding his perception of their inability to hunt and defend themselves. Of these bugs, most never had venom, claws, or particularly developed shells and fangs in the first place, as we can see from the Quirrel comic.

[ebon silo]

The Grimm troupe is the flea caravan mystery solved

Flea troupe 😭

[glad jacinth]

yooo wait

[ebon silo]

I can already imagine some sort of flea troupe gauntlet for halloween

[lean temple]

The thing is that the orange juice apocalypse had already done its killing. Dirtmout is pretty safe, while in Act 3 the apocalypse is still undergoing and the kingdom potentially would collapse even more due to GMS raging

[sudden pivot]

I dont think he would really care I mean he'd be in and out its not like he'd have to interact with the void at all really, if anything does Dirtmouth not imply he'd be camped up in the surface town? (forgot the name) far from danger?

[terse wadi]

Nah, GT uses NMH flames they're just using normal fire/wisps in wisp Thicket

[worldly onyx]

nightmare king mooshka

[glad jacinth]

dang epic game theory dead

[worldly onyx]

secret act 4 boss revealed true no way

[terse wadi]

Absolute Vog

[amber bridge]

The kingdom of Hallownest has no monarchy, all of its people are either dead or infected. But it can still have alive bugs (even with senses) like the NPCs, so not everything and everyone has to be dead, maybe just 80% of it.

Pharloom in Act 3 could fall under the category, given we practically kill the Monarch, the bugs in pharloom all dying, or worse infected by the Void now.

But as someone mentioned yeah the Void technically the new „monarch“ of Pharloom if you want to look it that way. Or TC goes insane, introduces an Act 4 and somehow bring both the aftermath and the Troupe back. I no longer really hold hope they would strictly respect their own game‘s lore anymore honestly

[lean temple]

That's the possibility, but I'm not sure the kingdom would count as fully dead, and tbh I just don't think it does. It would be interesting to see if TC decide otherwise.

[terse wadi]

Living bugs doesn't mean the kingdoms not dead societal colllapse is a big factor even in act 3 most of the towns are in tact and society still somewhat exists

[ebon silo]

What if gaster appears in silksong in some secretly added room in moss grotto

[glad jacinth]

gaster???

[sudden pivot]

I just dont really think he cares if its fully dead or not, like he has us collecting Nightmare Flames in the Fungal Wastes iirc and there's a perfectly happy civilization still living their best lives down there, I think he mostly just cares about the quantity and quality of Nightmares present to be honest, which naturally is always best at collapsing and collapsed kingdoms

[lean temple]

Can't argue with that tbh

[fossil ledge]

Said happy civilization being the Mantis Tribe?

[terse wadi]

The mantises were never part of Hallownest though

[fossil ledge]

Cause the Mushroom Clan is confirmed to be infected

[worldly onyx]

sharpe and gaster both not getting addressed by the creators of their specific games

[fossil ledge]

You said gaster and I had to think of the insect body part lol

[terse wadi]

The difference is sharpe is a backer and is obligated to be added at some point

[sudden pivot]

yeah but the point is if you think he'd be so fickle about Pharloom not being technically destroyed yet by the time of act 3 you'd think the Mantis's still going strong would disqualify him from coming to the lands of Hallownest

[worldly onyx]

yeah 100% dlc

[amber bridge]

Mantis Tribe and the Town above Hallownest would beg to differ. Don‘t think this is applicable anymore and I still think the crtierion simply has to reach at least 80% threshold, enough demise of a Kingdom that has enough Nightmare fuel.

[ebon silo]

When are we getting silksong on the PSP Vita literally a day ago or few hours ago someone played silksong on windows XP so surely it's available on the PSP vita

[fossil ledge]

Personally I think Pharloom would qualify as a fallen kingdom

Especially during Act 3

[amber bridge]

I think so to, at least Act 3 Pharloom

[ember river]

I didn't say there were no servants, there most definetely were, especially amongst the City of Tears high society. Lurien for example had various assistants and a butler, and I'd assume other wealthy families had servants as well, though I'd reckon they were more similar to 18th/19th century home servants than actual slaves.

As for the maggots, menial labour can range from swiping the streets and cleaning toilets to some tougher tasks, but otherwise they're generally considered absolutely worthless even by the Hunter himself, so I doubt that they were the ones in charge of procuring food, and seemingly not of cooking it either, not even in the high society.
The actual base of the kingdom, the industry, mining operations, construction and military still seem comprised entirely, or almost entirely of voluntary workers, not of slaves or anything.

So yes, Hallownest did have both servants and serfs as seen in the City of Tears and with the maggots, but I don't think that most bugs had servants or that serfs were the economical base of the kingdom, much less slaves

[fossil ledge]

Even before though, you enter the Citadel during Act 2 and it's empty, only fallen husks around

[ebon silo]

It's still not dead when bellhart and songclave is there not adding hunters march if we assume it's the same as the mantis tribe

[fossil ledge]

Eerie af

[terse wadi]

No it wouldn't, It was never part of Hallownest, he's feasting on Hallownests corpse, and the fungal core is def not part of it, just some wild lands

[fossil ledge]

Skarr Tribe is also affected by the haunting

Songclave didn't exist and Bellhart was all but gone before Hornet arrived

[glad jacinth]

dirtmouth is alive and Grimm didn’t care bout that

[ebon silo]

it's an old man living there

[terse wadi]

Dirtmouth is a shell of its former self compared to its prime and is more like a survivors camp of like 4 people and Mantis Tribe is business as usual, just more things to hunt to keep safe

[fossil ledge]

How is the Fungal Core not a part of Hallownest? It's one of the most important areas of the Mushroom Clan, who are officially part of the kingdom of Hallownest

[sudden pivot]

the Pilgrims way (Hallownest's Territory) cuts directly through the Fungal Wastes, and also I dont think he would care about the technical borders if again simply some amount of civilization existing is enough to prevent Grimm from heading to those lands, they're all the same caverns ultimately

[glad jacinth]

and cornifer and the shopkeeper and zote and bretta

[ebon silo]

Affected by the haunting to an extent their minds aren't fully haunted just yet because they are being confused they can't tell if the haunting is from karmelita or not so that confusion kinda made then resilient

[sudden pivot]

yeah and I mean I dont like arguing this with people because its kinda complicated if they dont know what you mean but the Shroomals (as well as the Hive and Moths) were his vassals

[fossil ledge]

Pretty sure the Hive had no official relations to the kingdom

[ember river]

I think the Troupe could indeed come to Pharloom, the actual social structure of the kingdom is pretty much dead, its megastructure and crown jewel is half destroyed and all the people who were in charge of maintaining it are dead. Its ruling classes have been wiped out except for a single member, too

However, I don't think they will because having a DLC that's just the same DLC from hollow knight would be kinda boring

[sudden pivot]

did metalworking for them and trained their heir, seems pretty offical to me

[ebon silo]

I don't think the moths are his vassals and who is his are we talking bout sum pale king action or

[glad jacinth]

well hornet apparently trained with hive queen

[sudden pivot]

yes PK :3

[ember river]

Hornet wasn't really the heir to hallownest

[fossil ledge]

I know that the retconned Hornet being raised by Vespa and gifted a sword, but this exists in a vacumm relative to everything else we know about them

[lean temple]

They could change it up, have different NPCs and a different incarnation of Grimm

[ebon silo]

Yeah it's not like our recent new protagonist and her sword wasn't from said hive or anything

[terse wadi]

idk NMH's thought process mayhaps since the mushrooms aren't bugs it thinks those don't count idk

[ember river]

I mean, Grimm is just Grimm, it's a physical vessel for the Nightmare Heart to interact with the world

[sudden pivot]

whether or not she was the intended heir she was the only capable heir at the time of her being trained, still not something you entrust to just anybody is my point

[terse wadi]

agreed

[edgy barn]

Narratively speaking, Pharloom is not a dead kingdom

[lean temple]

I mean the Hive was still isolated and refused his reign. The Pale Court did have relations with Vespa but that's just diplomacy

[fossil ledge]

What I mean is that Vespa denounced Hallownest and the Wanderer's Journal mentions the Hive has been closed for a long time

[ebon silo]

could Grimm 1v1 the radiance when both are the opposite of their powers like could nightmare infiltrate dreams

[amber bridge]

I feel like this whole dissection and comparison of which constitutes a dead kingdom will end up pointless cuz TC is just gonna say „oh yeah Act 3 Pharloom looks pretty dead, let’s bring back grimm! the fans love him“

[ember river]

Pure Vessel was trained more and never stepped a foot into the Hive, I think Hornet ended there for other reasons, the Pale King wasn't necessarily behind it

[amber bridge]

given they made at least 3 lore retcon in silksong so I kinda have up hope they‘d be that strict w their lore anymore

[ebon silo]

Off topic question but is that reverse 1999 on ur pfp

[lean temple]

I know, but I meant he could have a different move set and stuff so he isn't a full copy paste, maybe different tents and things like that. It'd be so interesting to see Hornet and Grimm talk

[amber bridge]

[ember river]

The Nightmare Heart already divided the dream realm and took half of it from the Radiance as told by Moth tradition

[fossil ledge]

Has to be given what we know now about them, problem is Vespa makes it seem like they have no relation in the first game, and we don't get anything else to work with

[terse wadi]

This guy thinks TC would give us what we want

[edgy barn]

Hornet's whole goal ends up being to free Pharloom and prevent it from becoming another Hallownest that she has to stand watch over the corpse of

[terse wadi]

I don't recall there being any

[ebon silo]

Oh really? Huh so what are they deep rooted rivals or does the radiance doenst give a fuck and only hates the void

[fossil ledge]

So as it stands, we have a queen that claims no connection yet she trained and gifted the foreign power's heir personally

[sudden pivot]

could have sworn it was stated somewhere that the Hive only closed off after THK started failing, I guess I made that up though, however the existence of Hive Husks still implies the Kingdoms were open to each other in Hallownest's prime

[ember river]

Eh, it wouldn't really add anything from a story and lore perspective, which I'd say is much more enjoyable, especially if you can just make those attack patterns into a new, unique boss

[wicked fossil]

Yeah the Hive Husks don't seem to be native or born from the Hive

[lean temple]

That's a good point, but those look more like husks the Hive kidnapped into their territory

[fossil ledge]

It does? I always just assumed some husks managed to fall in and they developed some form of symbiosis

[glad jacinth]

real question is will an Australian dev team reuse an old dlc about an edgy Dracula bug

[ember river]

That way not only you add more worldbuilding, you create another iconic character

[sudden pivot]

but the Hunter specifically notes that "both seem happy" with their situation

[ember river]

I doubt so, if any DLC lore is reused it's probably godmaster

[lean temple]

Oh? Didn't know that

[fossil ledge]

But aren't they all infected?

[terse wadi]

Why would Godseeker leave Hallownest when it has far more Higher beings

She has a god fetish

[ebon silo]

Seek more gods I guess

[sudden pivot]

here I found it, bit of a misquote on my part my bad however I think it has the same spirit:

"Did the hivelings build their nest around this sorry bug, or did the bug squeeze its body into their nest? Either way, they seem happy enough together."

[ember river]

I don't think that the Radiance hates the void as something personal, the Pale King also wrote "Void, yours is the power opposed", it also seems to be one of the few (if not the only) way to permanently kill higher beings

[lean temple]

Because they all refused attunement. Rad and PK are dead and Nightmare's Heart leaves

[terse wadi]

quantity seems to matter to her

[pale narwhal]

ngl i half expected Trobbio to maybe be a different troupe in service of the nightmare heart

[terse wadi]

WL, Unn, and SL are still here

[dire lynx]

i mean, she was poofed by white flower. Maybe it isnt a choice (assuming we see her again)

[fossil ledge]

I remember, but my question is, was the bug already infected or not? Cause it seems like a weird thing for a sapient bug to do

[ebon silo]

Oh my god trobbio troupe dlc

[edgy barn]

Out of those higher beings, two are dead, one is once dibly weakened, another one left, another is actively avoiding them and the last may or may not want them around

[ebon silo]

trobbio visits the flea caravan or sum and makes a little carnival

[ember river]

Am I the only person who didn't find Trobbio similar to the Grimm Troupe whatsoever? The only similarities are the stageplay theme and the color red in the first fight

But the aesthetics are very different

[ebon silo]

Everyone found trobbio similar to grimm

[pale narwhal]

aesthetically

[lean temple]

Yeah he's pretty different. The theatrics are the main similarity ig

[terse wadi]

see, all HK endings are canon so flower ending could lead to that but I doubt it'd be something so conclusive

[ember river]

Yeah, that's why I'm asking

[terse wadi]

GS doesn't really care

[dire lynx]

sealed siblings and the hollow knight cannot be canon

[ember river]

Aesthetically the Grimm Troupe uses much more black, darker reds, big eyes and edgier designs

[fossil ledge]

Agreed

[terse wadi]

They literally can though?

[kindred verge]

The focus on mobile flashy, fire-based attacks and theatrical theme give him a Grimm-lite feel

[ember river]

Trobbio however is flamboyant and bright

[sudden pivot]

thats a good point, however hasn't the Hunter been around since before the infection started leaking? he knows not of the Vessels creation but he was around for at least an era of prosperity following THK's sealing even if not Hallownest's prime, wouldn't the fact that those bugs are already there and he knows them intimately imply they got there prior to infection? I dont think Radiance has any reason to wander husks into the Hive to help them populate

[compact rampart]

Yeah then silksong doesn't exist

[dire lynx]

how, hornet and the knight are both alive and present

[sacred crater]

Hornet has a light pale glow, maybe probably because she is half pale being, also she can probably create a delicate flower from memory since they are related to pale beings

[ember river]

She can create it from memory because of her weaver inheritage

[terse wadi]

Seal breaker bugs, for sealed siblings, and hornet can just be nabbed in THK

[ember river]

As she tells the shamans

[sudden pivot]

Weavers get their power ultimately from a pale being

[sacred crater]

Maybe she was just lying

[ember river]

Well yeah, but it's her being half weaver what lets her, not half wyrm

[compact rampart]

The knight doesn't become fully void like in the other endings though

[pale narwhal]

hes not a vampire bat moth but like the showmanship, the scarlet hues

[edgy barn]

What about the knight? why would the choir bugs free them? how do they end up in their Lord of Shades form?

[ember river]

Also, I'm very iffy on refering to hornet as "half pale being", she's half wyrm, but we don't know if all wyrms are pale, if Hornet herself is, or if it's something inherited

[kindred verge]

Silksong only decanonizes THK and SS endings if you make certain assumptions about the timeline and about the Lord of Shades' relationship to TK

[sacred crater]

Wait so she's half worm and half weaver and a worm is a pale being and weavers are created by a pale being soo how pale is she exactly

[ember river]

Higher Being offspring is weird

[compact rampart]

Is pk not pale?

[sudden pivot]

they didn't say it was because she was half Wyrm they said it was 'cause she's half Pale Being, you're saying it was Weaver powers and not Pale Being powers that allowed her to do this, and im saying that Weaver powers are derived from Pale Being powers, in that we know Pale Beings are tied to Soul and Weavers are able to manipulate Soul to a lesser extent than a full on Pale Being through their silk

[ember river]

The Pale King is pale, yes, but we don't know if it passes down or what's the deal with it

[compact rampart]

Ohhh

[edgy barn]

Hornet also implies that she's no longer watching over hallownest, which would mean the infection has been stopped.

[fossil ledge]

Hadn't thought of when the Hunter came to Hallownest, but it likely was before the infection started, now that I think about it. I don't think that necessarily implies the bugs were there before the infection, though. Although the Radiance has no reason to wander husks into the Hive, we do know husks just wander a lot when not attacking. The Hive also seems to have an unusual connection with the Radiance where she essentially replaced Vespa, so dunno

[sudden pivot]

Hornet is referenced as being a Pale being many times is Skong

[terse wadi]

All endings are canon to the beginning of SS, SoV is specifically canon to either DNM or ETV the other SS endings which have not been discredited as non-canon and knowing TC's track record will likely also be canon, I look at it as timelines every action is it's own timeline

[ember river]

Please do provide a source for that

[ebon silo]

Bro if you look far from your pfp it kinda looks like a robot with an antenna while wearing a tuxedo and a red tie

[sudden pivot]

"You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."

[ebon silo]

Or maybe I'm just autistic idk

[compact rampart]

Also remember that TC said all endings are canon before the game came out so that statement could just not be true anymore

[edgy barn]

...what?

[ebon silo]

Do you want me to draw it

[kindred verge]

"'my kind" is FAR from unambiguous

if you choose to read it as "Pale" that's fine though

[dire lynx]

hornet dies in sealed siblings vro

[ember river]

I think that so many mental gymnastics and the need to have a specific canon set in stone detracts from the fact that video games are just stories being told

[kindred verge]

sealing is not death

[sacred crater]

I think it decanonizes the dream no more endings too, i believe that if the shade lord escaped he would destroy everything in the kingdom hornet included and she doesn't even mention anything like that and if he gets destroyed by the pale flower then i believe he dies and we know beings can die in dreams for real i think he gets deleted by it andd so the only true ending is the one where the knight kills radiance in hollow knights head

[ember river]

Silksong obviously can't happen after SS or HK, so there's that

[dire lynx]

the black egg drains the life of those who are not void

[ember river]

But if they make Zoteboat after one of those endings then what, is Silksong not canon, is Zoteboat not canon?

[rustic gyro]

Yes but she says the bindings would drain her

[sudden pivot]

how is it ambiguous, she literally says "pale beings" and "my kind" in the same sentence, if you need another example the Mask Maker also refers to Hornet as being of the same "kind" as Grand Mother Silk

[fossil ledge]

What makes everyone think the Shade Lord would destroy everything? It is heavily implied that the Knight has this power in Act 3's ending and is ultra chill

[terse wadi]

idk why people always presume the HK endings must lead to SoV the other endings have not been discredited and the fact all HK endings are canon already means there's timelines, THK and SS flow in WQ or TC

[compact rampart]

Why do we think etv is canon? I interpreted the flash of the shade lord to be just a flash that there's something more to be unlocked but it's not there

[terse wadi]

she doesn't lmao

How does bro not know this

[ember river]

Thanks

[compact rampart]

Making it more dnm

[ember river]

I'd say it's much less ambiguous than his interpretation of the hunter's journal entry

[terse wadi]

huh

[ebon silo]

I feel like that's the canon but it's cutscene is retconned by half only stopping when the flower teleported the godmaster away

[edgy barn]

Karmelita also calls Hornet 'Pale Beast' when first meeting her.

[ember river]

Noted

[sudden pivot]

oh yeah and Gurr's Needolin dialogue says "Pale prey...."

[proud swan]

Gurr the outcast calls her pale prey

[sudden pivot]

lmao

[ebon silo]

Jinx

[dire lynx]

The path is opened. One way or another an end awaits inside.
I won't be joining you in this. That space is built to sustain your likes. Its bindings would drain me were I to join.
Don't be surprised. I'll not risk my own life in your attempt, though if the moment presents I'll aid as I'm able.

[sudden pivot]

twinsies omgggg

[ember river]

Becoming a Dreamer does seem to make you immortal or protected

[terse wadi]

Hornet isn't dead she's sleeping

[proud swan]

im so honored

[dire lynx]

inside the black egg that drains and kills non void beings

[ember river]

In any case I feel like trying to keep SS/HK as canon to silksong is overthinking it

[terse wadi]

A better argument would be that she's trapped in the black egg but seal breaker bugs counters that too

[fossil ledge]

I'm still not sure about the Hive, even with the new elements revealed in Silksong, but the Mushroom Clan and Moth Tribe definitely were vassals

[sacred crater]

It obliterates the godmaster not teleports hin

[dire lynx]

not to mention breaking the seal requires the dreamers death

[terse wadi]

Bro

Seal breaker bugs exist

There's literally methods to break seals

[ember river]

If dreamer seals can be broken by a damn fly why even bother

[terse wadi]

It's not that complicated

[raven inlet]

I think the knight unifying the void helped to pacify the shade lord.

[ember river]

The Pale King is not THAT dumb

[sudden pivot]

fair enough!!! :3 I interpret it as them only having sealed off their Hive once the infection started (or perhaps Vespa becoming to big to leave makes more sense as a catalyst, regardless I believe both occured around the same time) but I can definitely understand why would would see it as them simply always having been isolationists ^^

[rain spindle]

Seal of Bindings can be broken through void, lace and sealbreakers

[terse wadi]

in fairness, they don't seem to be native to Hallownest

[fossil ledge]

The Knight is the Shade Lord, though

[rain spindle]

Yes sister of the void confirms it

[ember river]

Also, what makes people think that Void Given Focus isn't still the Knight?

[edgy barn]

Does anyone have the document with all of silksong's dialogue?

[rain spindle]

Shade lord is the knight

[proud swan]

Do we have topics in ss lore? I feel kinda lost in the discussions around here tbh because sometimes theres more than one subject

[ebon silo]

Would it be crazy if the godmaster appeared in bilewater talking bout sum vessel giving her a flower and now she's here

[ember river]

As if it's some ancient god of destruction instead of the Knight's shade in another, much stronger form

[terse wadi]

and unless they appear in another kingdom they're native to Pharloom of which the citadel bugs who came to get her would have access to in all likelihood

[fossil ledge]

I'm not sure why, but many people seem to consider the two as distinct individuals

[sacred crater]

Shes DEAD in that ending

[sudden pivot]

yeah unfortunately people all just kinda have their own discussions and butt in when they feel like it here, trying to read back an argument is definitely a pain ^^; following reply chains is the best way ^^

[ebon silo]

Retcon for godmaster dlc 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️ jk

[raven inlet]

Well that’s what I mean, clearly the ending of act 3 in ss shows that they’ve become one and therefore the void is no longer just a source of mindless consumption

[rain spindle]

Which is factually wrong

[sacred crater]

Retcon the dlc away

no more godmaster for u you couldnt behave

[sudden pivot]

I dont even understand where one draws that implication from seriously

[terse wadi]

SoV implies either DNM or ETV it just requires VH

[ebon silo]

Forget the godmaster we have save files

[ember river]

It still is though

The Knight doesn't seem to be omniscient

[ebon silo]

We can just perform a Flowey what could go wrong

[sudden pivot]

I like to think HK ending is canon to WQ in Silksong but thats just my fun little headcanon :3

[rain spindle]

His control has a range

Which is why he needs to travel to pharloom to save hornet

[ember river]

And if EtV is the canon ending it doesn't seem to be able to maintain the Focus form forever either

[terse wadi]

anyways, it's established Pharloom has methods to break seals evidenced by the seal on hornets cage breaking at the beginning, so SS is possible and THK can apply to WC or TC

[rain spindle]

It probably just chooses not to

[terse wadi]

*WQ

[terse wadi]

Same ngl

[ebon silo]

who the hell is WQ again so many abbreviations

[ember river]

That's a whole lot of mental gymnastics to justify an ending that wasn't meant to be canon to this one

[terse wadi]

Weaver Queen

[rain spindle]

Weaver Queen

[kindred verge]

Weaver Queen ending

[ebon silo]

Oh i though it was a combo set for league of legends or something

[sudden pivot]

it makes the most sense of Hornet's arcs in both endings if HK is canon to WQ and DnM/EtV is canon to SotV imo :3

[ember river]

Why even think that TC still abides by an 8 year old statement that's also greatly narratively limiting

[compact rampart]

^^

[kindred verge]

why assume they don't?

[rain spindle]

Because of sealed siblings

[ember river]

Because the game doesn't lol

[compact rampart]

Because there's a new game?

[rain spindle]

If one ending isnt canonized

Then the statement is meaningless

[sudden pivot]

oh yeah I dont think that applies at all, I think the second Silksong went from a dlc to a full game that occurs chronologically after the first game Sealed Siblings made that inherently impossible

[ember river]

As a reference, when they said that all endings are canon, they hadn't even released godmaster

[terse wadi]

It's not, seal breaking is possible, and like I've already overstated SS's other endings are not discredited, SS and HK can apply to WQ since those endings again aren't discredited but DNM and ETV lead to SoV, it's not Mental gymnastics this franchise already has many branching timelines from all HK endings being canon in general

[fossil ledge]

That's fair, I can see that as a possibility too. To me, Vespa's curt remarks on the situation made it seem like they had no involvement with the kingdom since the beginning and chose to be isolationists. Given we learn nothing more on the topic until the Red Dream, it's what made the most sense to me.

Now though, for Hornet to have been trained and gifted a valuable weapon by Vespa herself, the early isolationist thing doesn't make as much sense anymore. Yet there's basically nothing hinting at Hallownest being involved to any capacity in the first game, so I'm gonna have to consider this some kind of soft retcon then.

Not that it bothers me, as I love the Daughter of Three Queens narrative

[terse wadi]

agreed

[ember river]

Again, if Dreamer seals can be broken immediately by a random bug that makes them lame as fuck

[terse wadi]

Argue with TC not me

[compact rampart]

How long do you think Hornet could last in the black egg? Cause it's not like there were bugs just waiting to break the seal

[terse wadi]

They invented the seal breaker bug

[rain spindle]

Not more than a few hours

[ebon silo]

Someone ping Ari Gibson or something we need lore

[ember river]

Why TC, why should they limit their writing to a handful of endings?

[terse wadi]

We don't know, but SS how shown us that Hornet is far more resilient than most bugs

[compact rampart]

And even if she could survive the black eggs effects don't bugs need to eat

[rain spindle]

Dreamer seals are not seal of bindings

[sudden pivot]

ohhhhh thats a really interesting interpretation, I had seen Vespa's dialogue as sort of her somewhat bitterly imparting onto the Knight the wisdom she wishes she had had to impart on her Hive

[rain spindle]

Seal of bindings are made of silk

They are some sort of black magic of the black egg

[ember river]

Also, about those flies, which are pretty much ghosts, the only seal we see broken by them is the one in that runed cage, which we can punch open anyways (wardenfly cages also have a similar enchantment)

[ember river]

Also not all runes and seals are seals of binding. The only seal of binding that we know of is the one in the Path of Pain

[terse wadi]

TC said All HK endings were canon and took steps towards that is what I'll say

[rain spindle]

There is one in deepnest too

[fossil ledge]

Do we know this for sure, though? We do see one partially made in Weaver's Den, but it looks different from the one on the Black Egg

[rain spindle]

Yes we know

[ember river]

Is it the same one?

[compact rampart]

8 years ago before silksong was even gonna be a game

[sudden pivot]

random but Father of the Flame being referred to as a created god, not by Hornet but by the much more objective narrator, is EXTREMELY fascinating to me

[rain spindle]

Yep

[dire lynx]

they said that before releasing godhome or the concept of a sequel

[ember river]

I see

[fossil ledge]

How?

[compact rampart]

I don't see Hornet as a playable character in hollow knight and they said that

[ember river]

TC said that in a twitter quote, word of god, especially of that sort, is inherently less relevant than what we're shown ingame

[rain spindle]

Weavers den in deepnest implies it

We see the silk forming it in hornets room

[fossil ledge]

True, I also found this line quite intriguing, since it's the one instance of an actual "false" god we see in either game

[rain spindle]

Eva too

[kindred verge]

IMO it's more interesting to consider how the alternative endings could still be canon than to make the blanket statement that only one or two of them are just because it's the simplest explanation.

That said, I don't deny that it IS the simplest explanation based on what we see in the game.

[rain spindle]

Eva was made by the weavers to face GMS im pretty sure

[sudden pivot]

well, I think word of god thats happens chronologically before what we see in game was created is inherently less relevant, I agree with your point just think its worth being specific there

[ember river]

You know, the game that shows you the form only taken in two endings

[fossil ledge]

Could this not be merely a design, component or blueprint?

[terse wadi]

We have no understanding of the differences in strength between the wardenfly cages and the cage at the beginning and I'd argue the wardenfly cage seals are far weaker as they're used generally for common bugs most likely while the cage at the beginning was imprinted with a seal SPECIFICALLY to capture hornet, one could also argue that hornet has regained much of her strength by the time she's captured by the wardenfly where as before she was in a weakened state

[rain spindle]

It has the same format as the one in path of pain and black egg. It makes more sense to assume they are made of silk

[ember river]

We also have no understanding of the differences in strength between the cage at the beggining and a dreamer seal

[fossil ledge]

Isn't Eva more like a failed god?

[rain spindle]

So is the father of the flame

[fossil ledge]

You mean pattern? Cause a blueprint, component or design would indeed have the same pattern

[ember river]

Yeah, though also some word of god is to be taken with a grain of salt even if it happens after the subject matter has released. The Harry Potter ones come to mind

[sudden pivot]

in general I wish Whisp Thicket was bigger, I know we'll never get more about it but I honestly am more fascinated by it lore-wise than the Coral Kingdom, I really wish the area was bigger and had literally any enemy variety

[rain spindle]

Yeah but what I say still apply. There are silk things eight outside the white palace

Connecting the dots you can assume they are made of silk

[fossil ledge]

Although it would make more sense to assume they're made of silk in a vacuum, we see many other instances of visually similar seals that we have no reason to believe are made of silk in various places throughout Hallownest

[sudden pivot]

thats more of a death of author thing but yes you are definitely right that skepticism should be applied even to word-of-god statements that happen after the fact

[terse wadi]

I'd personally like to see the quote that says WQ and TC aren't canon, then perhaps I'll buy that SS and HK can't happen because of SoV, but since they haven't been discredited, that is my interpretation of the timelines

[dire lynx]

for example the white ladys seal, that she placed on herself

[rain spindle]

Silk got spread through all hallownest after the hollow knight was trapped. They just got destroyed

[ember river]

Why do I have to show you a quote when you have SotV doing that already

[fossil ledge]

I agree. It's too small an area with too much to say. I will say though, I got my ass kicked in both playthroughs there xD. Those wisps don't mess around lol

[rain spindle]

Thats why we know so little about the events post black egg. They were written in silk spools

[ember river]

You're expected to have enough comprehension to understand that the ending where Hornet sleeps forever and the knight is chained isn't what happened when you find the knight and play as Hornet

[compact rampart]

Also doing the other endings doesn't unconfirm the knight being in the void

[ember river]

Exactly, the possibility is still there, the void doesn't magically stop existing

[fossil ledge]

What about the Abyss door seal, for example?

[rain spindle]

That is not a seal of binding

Seal of bindings are required to have patterns

[fossil ledge]

It's not, but it's visually indentical in material, pattern aside

[sudden pivot]

the fact that they CURVE to hit you got me so pressed the first playthrough X3 thats kinda what I mean though, I feel like some easier enemies sprinkled throughout some less immediately lore-relevant parts of the Thicket would help make navigating it feel less frustrating

[rain spindle]

Not really

[ember river]

I don't think all glowing seals are made from silk, but perhaps the Pale King based his own on Weaver seals

[terse wadi]

The only thing that SoV shows is that it follows DNM or ETV, HK as a franchise already establishes timelines, you could argue SoV is the main timeline I won't argue with that, but WQ and TC can still follow SS and HK

[rain spindle]

Its engraved in the door

Its more like the dreamer seals if anything

[terse wadi]

There's an unfinished SoB in the weavernest in deepnest so I think it is

[fossil ledge]

With Dreamer seal you mean the one that shows up in the Resting Grounds, or?

[rain spindle]

The ones in the black egg

[compact rampart]

Doing wq or TC doesn't invalidate the knight being in the void

[fossil ledge]

That was my guess too, at least some of them. Cause we do see a seal on the Wyrm egg, for example

[fossil ledge]

You mean the smaller ones that briefly flash when you kill a Dreamer?

[ember river]

Again, canon and non-canon, timelines, multiverses and all excuses to desperately canonize an event or character are just a weird way of admitting that fiction is fictional and a story being told

[maiden meteor]

Maybe silk seals are easier to made or smth

[sudden pivot]

I think the King's Brand alters your Crest and thats why it has such dramatic effects for a theoretically purely aesthetic thing

[terse wadi]

Never said it did, I'm saying, in the specific timeline where SS and HK happen, WQ or TC happens but in the timelines of DNM and ETV SoV happens

[fossil ledge]

Agreed!

[ember river]

Some are, yes, but I wouldn't say every single one

[rain spindle]

Yeah. Their faces are engraved in the door just like the kings brand is

[fossil ledge]

I'm inclined to agree. It's all quite dramatic xD

[ember river]

You can actually draw physical runes with them, raw soul probably needs a lot of mastery

[sudden pivot]

yeah you turn into an orb if you try to manipulate raw soul as a normal bug

[dire lynx]

silk is also just the form that weavers utilise soul in

[fossil ledge]

So you think these are similar to the one in the Abyss door, but not the seal of binding over the Black Egg? What about the White Lady seal?

[terse wadi]

I'm just going on established facts, even disregarding endings for a second the choice achievements in HK are timelines in themselves, a different choice is made, one was not more canon the the other both happen

[ember river]

The ones on the Wyrm egg, on the Dreamers, on creatures you can't dreamnail without it being awoken, those don't seem woven seals

[ember river]

You're just going on an outdated word of god from before they even began planning silksong as a DLC, much less a standalone game

Having to abide by that is incredibly limiting for a writer

[solemn heath]

||is the delicate flower godmaster ending the canon one?||

[rain spindle]

I dont recall the white lady seal but im sure its not a seal of binding

[ember river]

If they want to tell a story they tell it, there's no canon either way because this is all fiction

[ember river]

Nobody knows

[solemn heath]

ah

[terse wadi]

It's only your opinion it's outdated

[sudden pivot]

dont need to spoils in this chat friend :3

[dire lynx]

there is a big argument going on because of this question rn lol

[solemn heath]

lmfao

[fossil ledge]

Well, the Seal of Binding is only one. What I'm asking is if you think any other seal besides that one is made of silk

[solemn heath]

ah ok

[terse wadi]

That's strawmanning, you know full well canon is the writers confirmation of what officially happens in a story

[ember river]

It's obviously outdated

[kindred verge]

We should move on from talking about endings -- this ultimately hinges on whether a person subjectively places more weight on the implications of SoV or the original WoG, and there's not an objectively right answer there

[ember river]

Officialty matters zero when talking about fiction

[fossil ledge]

Those are my thoughts too. I'll also say the runes in HK seem different to those of Silksong. Might just be design update, but

[rain spindle]

Oh yeah it is a seal of binding

Thanks for reminding me

[dire lynx]

she made it herself btw

[rain spindle]

So what

[fossil ledge]

So what do you call a seal of binding then? A rune that binds an individual?

[dire lynx]

not silk

[rain spindle]

Its never said she didnt get any help

[ember river]

Also, we clearly see the canon ending is not HK or SS, Hollow Knight fans are the only humans on Earth that could see the sun shine in the sky and still say it's nighttime

[sudden pivot]

I would guess she likely learned to do this from the Weavers, I would guess the same reason is why Pure Vessel has First Sinner's attack

[ember river]

I think there are just various ways of doing the same thing

[sudden pivot]

like any being with soul can do this if they're taught

*soul manipulation

[fossil ledge]

I think so too

[lapis rose]

Guys get your munyun and not yo funyun

[fossil ledge]

Probably, yes

[terse wadi]

It does actually, canon is the official direction the story takes and non canon means it's a different aspect of the story being told but is not relevant to the actual events of the story, Canonicity is specifically about fiction as it's not applicable to real life and in fact implying that SoV invalidates my arguement is in itself claiming it is the true canon ending more so than WQ and TC

[fossil ledge]

My point was more if perhaps the design difference suggested a difference in material used

[ember river]

Okay, what if the next HK game if there ever is one is set after the SS ending, what's canon then?

Maybe they wanted to tell that story at that point

[fossil ledge]

The Weavers having taught the Pure Vessel this technique would certainly explain the similarity between the attacks of both

[sudden pivot]

I think the runes physical designs vary on a case by case basis to determine the kind of rune, for example we can see the runes that seal the exit of the Black Egg once THK has been unchained prominently features it's head in the design

[fossil ledge]

Really curious though, what do you consider a seal of binding?

[ember river]

I wouldn't say the weavers had much to do with the training of the Pure Vessel, also the only one we know could do that was First Sinner, Hornet seems very surprised at that as well

[ember river]

The Path of Pain one, exclusively

[rain spindle]

It needs to have some white striped format

[ember river]

I consider that one a seal of binding and the rest seals put there for whatever reason

[rain spindle]

A pattern if you will

[fossil ledge]

Agreed, the pattern likely determines its effect

[fossil ledge]

It's possible that they did, or didn't. We don't have much to go off of besides the similarities in visual effect. I also noticed Hornet seemed suprirsed, but her commentary also implies having seen runes used like this before, so

[sudden pivot]

yeah like my assumption is that raw soul is much more powerful but harder to control in fine ways which is why the Knight and THK's spells are all so violent, could also use this framework in comparing First Sinner's and THK's attack, saying that because THK is focusing raw soul it's areas of effect are much larger compared to First Sinner only being able to do it with a lesser if easier to manipulate version of soul manipulation, that is, Weaver Silk manipulation

[terse wadi]

Pretty sure I already discussed that this franchise has timelines if that ends up being the case then I would say that game is canon to that ending and SS follows after DNM and or ETV but as things currently stand, I believe HK and SS can follow into WQ and TC I don't see why that's such a big issue, considering SoV is the latest ending in the timeline it's the one that matters the most moving forward assuming the next HK game if there is one is a sequel chronologically to SS, things happen indepedently to each other

[fossil ledge]

That's what I'm thinking too. The design we see on the Temple of the Black Egg, the binds on the Hollow Knight and the Path of Pain are the Seal of Binding, as it is one design

[fierce fulcrum]

A question I'm really interested in is wth were weavers doing in abyss
And if my thought that Absolom is name of strongest weaver why the hell strongest weavenest is located in pit of void

[sudden pivot]

research outpost assumedly

[ember river]

If it is the same design, then yes, if it's not, then it might be a seal of cooking a perfectly roasted steak or something

[terse wadi]

Need that seal ngl

[fossil ledge]

My thoughts exactly

[sacred crater]

what if the void appeared there after the nest was build like it rose up from the ground or something

[ember river]

The final purpose of the citadel

The Gourmand was the top dog

[glossy badger]

Insane amount of abbreviations

[terse wadi]

The perfect roast

[fierce fulcrum]

I think not bcz iirc aren't weavers creation of GMS?

[ember river]

He was the one who sought the weavers to see if anyone could remember it

[fierce fulcrum]

And as we know void was there before Pharloom

[terse wadi]

Hopefully he doesn't eat only jello

[terse wadi]

it is what it is

[terse wadi]

If First sinner is to be believe they were evolved by GMS but not an outright creation

*believed

[ember river]

They were "created" as in the species appeared because GMS made it so, but they came from pre-existing pharlids

[ember river]

I don't see why First Sinner would not be believed

[sudden pivot]

I dont really think its an "if they're to be believed" thing, we saw it happen in a cutscene I think we can safetly assume the narrative wants to player to understand that GMS definitely evolved them

[glossy badger]

Yeah weavers aren't biologically related to gms

[terse wadi]

Not saying I don't or that we shouldn't I'm just saying it's the only source so unless discredited it's true

[sudden pivot]

interesting that they didn't remember the circumstances of their creation such that First Sinner was entombed for discovering it

[sudden pivot]

fair enough!!!! ^^

[terse wadi]

Why is my question though

[ember river]

Maybe they had the minds of children for a while, even though they were created, not born

[terse wadi]

Like why is knowing they were pharlids taboo

[ember river]

They were worshipped as holy

[glossy badger]

Maybe pharlids aren't intelligent and gms gave them intelligence

[terse wadi]

The weavers?

[ember river]

As daughters of an actual god

[sudden pivot]

yeah like they believed themselves to be genuinely godly beings and so the fact that they were kind of just normal people given magic would fuck up their world view a lot

[ember river]

Yep, the Weavers ruled/were worshipped as actual divine beings

[sudden pivot]

"She called us daughters.... divine... she lied..." -First Sinner

[terse wadi]

I mean, being given a divine blessing like that is tantimount to being a "child" and if we go the Greek god path some weren't even birthed

[fossil ledge]

They were like Amazons

[terse wadi]

Some versions say Aphrodite was born of "seafoam"

If yk yk

And Athena was born out of Zeus' head literally

[fossil ledge]

Weren't the Amazons sculpted out of clay by Zeus?

Or the first generation, anyway

[terse wadi]

not sure

[sudden pivot]

wouldnt make much of a difference since all humans are sculpted from clay in Greek Mythology

or yknow all first gens

[terse wadi]

Anyways, the point is, some gods in the various mythos of our world don't traditionally "birth"

[edgy barn]

Yeah but that one was because he ate her mother while she was pregnant

[lucid fossil]

das why she freaka

[fossil ledge]

True, but there was something special about Amazons. I unfortunately forgot but can look it up

[sudden pivot]

yeah but First Sinner's dialouge clearly implies that they were being told they were her literal spawn

[ember river]

Well, it did mean they were much more similar to whatever other tribes, much less capable than actual higher beings, and that their rule could easily be disputed

[terse wadi]

True, but there's other cases wholly unrelated of children just being sprouted from a gods body

[ember river]

There's a difference between actual deities and just wizards, in Hollow Knight for example Higher Beings are substantially harder to kill

Weavers aren't like that

[terse wadi]

That's true I'm just curious why they'd be imprisoned for that feels more like shattering their world view than a crime

[fossil ledge]

Weavers are still pretty strong though

[sudden pivot]

the Snail Shamans for example still consider themselves mortal and its not like they could just establish a society with themselves at its head at any time like a Higher Being could, Weavers are in a similar lane I'd reckon

[terse wadi]

Yeah

[fossil ledge]

Agreed, Weavers and Snail Shamans seem to be at a similar power level

[ember river]

If that happened when they were in charge, one of their kind disputing their own divine right to rule would be extremely concerning

Keep in mind they had this theocracy thing going on for a long long time

[terse wadi]

So we're assuming the other weavers imprisoned First sinner, makes more sense now

[ember river]

That's my assumption, yeah, and some others share it as well

Another subset of people believe it was during GMS rule though

[sudden pivot]

there's decent arguments for both

[ember river]

Yeah

[terse wadi]

Okay, yeah that makes more sense, I presumed it was the citadel bugs who did it and was wondering how that was a motive lol

[dire lynx]

i know the discussion on this died already but after raking my brain for all the seals i could remember there are actually a lot more than i thought. Anyway goodnight all

[sudden pivot]

ooooh wow thats actually very interesting, gn sleep well!!!!! ^^

[ember river]

I don't think the citadel bugs were the ones, since most, if not all weavers had already left or died by then

[terse wadi]

Fair

Actually, now that I think about it, aren't the weaverlings in Hallownest after ETV okay? since they're no longer infected because Rad is dead and they are living weaver children

[fossil ledge]

There's actually quite a few more than these! I have them all downloaded for inspiration when working on my custom charm designs lol

[edgy barn]

[fossil ledge]

Good night, btw!

[terse wadi]

Or little weaver sorry

[edgy barn]

The Little Weavers are uhhhh

A pain in the ass now that silksong's out

[fossil ledge]

Hard to say. Knowing what we do about Weavers now, I'm inclined to say yes

[terse wadi]

Yup

[fossil ledge]

Curious what happened to that one Weaver that runs away when you enter the Weaverden

[terse wadi]

So hornet is not ATLA Weaver edition, cool

[sudden pivot]

oh yeah btw I remembered a line relevant to our discussion about PK's motives and actions regarding Radiance, I dont really wanna get too much into it again now but I just found it while scrolling the wiki and I think it lends a good bit of credence to my perspective, if perhaps you'd like to share your immediate thoughts id be curious but no worries if not:
"The bugs of Hallownest believed their king created this world and everything in it" -Hunter's Notes on Wingsmoulds

I dunno why I responded to a random message probably should have just @'d you huh, well whatever im tired im sure you'll cut me some slack X3

[edgy barn]

It is stated by Eva that concieving is a difficult and painful tasks for weavers. Hornet confirms this info

And then there's the fact there's no such thing as a male weaver

[terse wadi]

Little weavers are already conceived though

[sudden pivot]

I assume little weavers probably aren't pure weaver but I could be wrong

[terse wadi]

hard to say

[edgy barn]

How were they concivied in the first place?

They also look like pure weavers, which shouldn't be possible

[sudden pivot]

unclear, my guess is interbreeding with the Deephunter species

[edgy barn]

Because no male weavers

[fossil ledge]

This is a line that I've thought about quite a bit before. I believe it's the only instance of something like this ever mentioned. That said, we do know many bugs were aware that the Pale King hadn't created everything, so in my opinion this either was specific to a few or number of fanatical devouts, or it's an exaggeration or perspective of the Hunter when viewing their religion

[sudden pivot]

they looked like the rest of the Deepnest Weavers, which dont really look like pure Pharloom Weavers

[fossil ledge]

That's quite alright, I'm sleep deprived too xD

[terse wadi]

Hornet is actually superior to a "Pure weaver" with her pale wyrm dna

[edgy barn]

Deephunters are animals, you can tell because of their needolin dialogue

[fossil ledge]

Not the Spider Tribe, though

[gritty ruin]

What the lore behind death in this game

[fossil ledge]

They're sapient as well I'm pretty sure

[terse wadi]

You die

[fossil ledge]

As in the dying mechanic? Steel Soul is canon, death is permanent

[neat plank]

what happend to shamans lmao

[gritty ruin]

Yeah but what’s the lore for the caccoon

[edgy barn]

Devouts and Weavers (and whatever midwife and nosk are I suppose ) are the only sapient species in deepnest that we get to see

[ember river]

I believe Midwife is a Devout as well

[terse wadi]

There is none, it's just your corpse in a silk cocoon but that's not canon anyway so whatever

[fossil ledge]

Aren't Devouts just the adult forms of the deephunters and deeplings?

[gritty ruin]

Oh

[edgy barn]

I do not.

[ember river]

Nothing to suggest that

[fossil ledge]

Or a variant of them, anyway, considering Midwife exists

[terse wadi]

Nosk is a shapeshifter we actually have no clue what it orignally looks like, the head at least

[ember river]

Maybe they have sexual dimorphism? Some insects do

[fossil ledge]

No? Given the similar head shape and whatnot I assumed they were

[ember river]

They have a similar headshape? I thought devouts had a very different body, and deephunters and deeplings were just normal beasts

I'm not sure about the biology of deepnest

[edgy barn]

Deephunters and Deepling have generic wild animal dream nail dialogue

[ember river]

By the way, does anybody think Loam and Nosk have a few similarities?

[sudden pivot]

I think we only know of characters who knew he wasn't responsible for everything after the Kingdom fell, right? even someone like Dung Defender, he seems to believe the only thing outside of the King's control was the infection, since he wouldn't know anything about the Dreamworld it was just seem like some ephemeral spirtual sickness to him, apart from PK's worldly creations, thats my interpretation of him and I struggle to think of many other examples of what you're talking about, im sure they're out there though, I do definitely think its a valid perspective however that the Hunter's statement may be him generalizing his least favorite traits among Hallownest's citizens to the entire nation

[sudden pivot]

probably cause they're young, they grow up into Devouts

[ember river]

That'd be a first though, even squirrms have sensible dialogue

[fossil ledge]

It's more obvious between the Stalking Devouts and Deephunters, but the Deeplings are called "infant of the Deepnest" so it can be assumed they're hatchlings

[sudden pivot]

the most intellegent living Beast's Den bug is Midwife and her intelligence consistently looses to animalistic impulse, I dont think its that much of a stretch

[fossil ledge]

Yeah, the Spider Tribe seems to have some primal aspects to them

[edgy barn]

Midwife can tell she's being dream nailed. I think she's just an asshole and her dialogue supports that.

[ember river]

Most of them are infected, and the spiders were already pretty violent, they ate tram workers and all
They are also civilized enough to have buildings and dens

Also, aren't the spiders that capture the knight in distant village devouts or something?

[terse warren]

I doubt it's animalistic impulse I think she just doesn't give a shit about you and wants to eat you, and she talks to you to give you a false sense of security

[ember river]

Since weavers are gone

[sudden pivot]

yeah thats my point, I think they're bordering animalistic and human-like intelligence which is why only the eldest among them have real consciousness

[sudden pivot]

but then why keep talking to you when you come back?

[sudden pivot]

at some point in development they were the eight legs of the Deepnest beast, dont know if thats still the case

[ember river]

I think they're just violent for the sake of it, like the moths are pacifists without any real reason

[terse warren]

The knight is. Strung up on webs. But silk can only be made by weavers. But. But. But.

[sudden pivot]

like they were puppets on the end of its legs

[edgy barn]

Silk ≠ silk

[ember river]

Silk as in the magical soul threads, not normal ass spider webs

[terse warren]

We don't see any webs at all in Pharloom, where the concept got introduced

And I doubt TC had the idea of Silk being a thing unique to Weavers and GMS all the way back

[terse warren]

Because "hey if I keep talking to them they'll keep coming back and I'll have more chances to eat them"

[ember river]

I really don't think spiders are unable to produce normal silk

[edgy barn]

I don't see how that disproves that the silk that the knight ends up snared in isn't the magical kind

[ember river]

Why would that even be an issue

[sudden pivot]

ehhhh maybe, that just seems like a very silly line of thought, the Knight will be on guard from then on so trying to suprise it is pointless

[terse warren]

Because aside from that example, which was before we had any magical Silk, we see no other silk in the rest of the game

[terse warren]

Oh no reason I just think it's silly

[ember river]

I think she's just having fun

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think all silk is strictly soul infused

[ember river]

We also don't see many spiders either

[sinful nimbus]

What ties you up in Beast's Den is not a weaver

[fossil ledge]

We know of characters before and after. From the period during, there's Monomon the Teacher who knew, for example. Can't think of any others off the top of my head but there aren't that many worshippers in the game either, so little to go off of in either direction.

Either ways, we know the Hunter likes to generalize statements a lot when it comes to negative traits about the bugs of Hallownest to the entire nation, as you said, so I'm not sure how literally we can interpret his commentary on this topic

[terse warren]

The weaver that stayed behind came by after we passed out and trapped us trust

[edgy barn]

That is not true, we see silk spools in the Weaver's den, Distant Village Station, Hidden Station and the PK's workshop, with the implication that silk was being secretly transferred from deepnest to white palace through the secret stag stations.

[fossil ledge]

I wouldn't be surprised if some fanatics did believe the Pale King to have created the whole world, though

But I highly doubt this was the common belief

[subtle plaza]

How is that not canon, it appears in the game

[silk dirge]

those are from weavers i think

weavers were involved with the vessel plan

[edgy barn]

Yeah it is

[silk dirge]

they spun the seals of binding and stuff

[subtle plaza]

As well as the UI which means hornet exactly knows her health and the amount of silk she has at all times

[terse warren]

On one hand I do wanna say "yeah that's fair" and end it there BUUUUUT it would be very funny to keep talking about it

[terse warren]

How sure are we of this

[full prism]

Grand Mother Silk is literally spinning you in a cocoon every time you die to protect you.

[silk dirge]

the room in weavers den

[edgy barn]

There's an sketch of the seal in their den

[terse warren]

Ohhh

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers having a non functional SoB in their den doesn't tell us much

[subtle plaza]

Oh, that is a really cool interpretation

[whole estuary]

silk vs Silk

[silk dirge]

i mean theres also silk spools in hidden station

[terse warren]

Also tbh in Silksong Weavers don't seem like the greatest fans of PK

[silk dirge]

its fair to say weavers were involved in some way

[fallen beacon]

what kind of bug/species is the huntress/styx

[terse warren]

Styx isn't a hunter bug

It's just a mask

[silk dirge]

also first sinner having the same rune rage attack as pure vessel

[terse warren]

Silksoar in his room

[silk dirge]

it seems to me weavers had to have been involved somehow

[terse warren]

Ehhhhh mmmaybe

[fallen beacon]

ok.. but what kinda bugs are they? cuz they're really big lol

[edgy barn]

Expanding on this, the Distant Village Station and Hidden Station were both unknown to the Old Stag, and they both have silk spools in them.

[sinful nimbus]

That seems to be more involved with the Moulds rather than the vessels

First Sinner and Pure Vessel both use soul its hardly surprising they have similar techniques

[silk dirge]

yeah but doesnt the journal entry say first sinner spun runes or some shit like that

i dont think the attacks are that much evidence tbh tho

i think its just a cool attack team cherry wanted to reuse and it made sense

[edgy barn]

The Weavers might not have been Wyrm fans but they were probably smart enough to realize that the Radiance wasn't going to spare them

[silk dirge]

but i still think theres some importance in it

[terse warren]

Tbh we have no evidence that they were directly involved, maybe they just provided Silk

Maybe it was a part of the deal that saw the birth of Hornet and Herrah being a dreamer

[terse warren]

Which is why they ran away

[zinc pivot]

The rage attack js similar, but its no soul attack

[scenic stirrup]

Man : ( i wanna hug her now after learning the red memory stuff

[sinful nimbus]

It is

[terse warren]

Silk IS soul

[scenic stirrup]

Wtf sideways

[sinful nimbus]

Silk is imbued with soul

[full prism]

So the Weavers in Hollow Knight were but just one offshoot of the Weavers that originated in Pharloom? And they were all created by GM Silk?

[silk dirge]

but otherwise what would be the purpose of the seal of binding in that room

[zinc pivot]

Construction wise is different

[whole holly]

i am sad about mottled skarrs death? i got question, if he had illness and he also is stabbed, did he die from illness of stabbing or something different?

[sudden pivot]

im pretty sure the average citizen of Hallownest worshipped the Pale King as a god (King's Idols) and therefore it would have been the average citizen during the Kingdom's prime who believed he had created the whole of the physical world, and is there actually any specfic dialouge that contradicts the idea that Monomon believed Pale King was responsible for creating the world? Elegy for Hallownest implies she believes only PK is capable of granting sentience, I also think a very possible interpretation is that the citizens believed that PK was responsible for the whole of the tunnels that comprised Hallownest from Kingdom's Edge to Deepnest, rather than him having created literally the entire world, I think you can read that from the way Hunter says "this world"

[sinful nimbus]

They could be trying to replicate or they designed it or whatever

[terse warren]

He wasn't sick, it's just ant racism

[edgy barn]

Yes, but running away and leaving Deepnest to its fate wouldn't have been their first option

[whole holly]

specify or elaborate

[sinful nimbus]

But PK probably was the one who really made the functional seals (We know he can do this because he made a seal of binding alone in the palace)

[silk dirge]

i mean if they designed it that would be involvement no

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[terse warren]

We see 3 motted ants in the game and they're all outcasts in some way. Only conclusion possible is ant racism

[solemn heath]

any lore on the abyss escape sequence?

[silk dirge]

weavers den is an interesting place tbh