sk-lore

[zinc pivot]

The thing is Radiance tantrum doesn’t have any effect on Pharloom aside from a narrative impact on Hornet

And maybe Weavers moving back to pharloom but well they are dead

Or missing

[fossil ledge]

What seems to have upset Radiance was the Moth Tribe whom she created leaving her for someone else, then forgetting her entirely

Similar to GMS, now that I think about it

[ancient dock]

The radiance was just bitter because her own tribe left her, that why she had them killed

[fossil ledge]

We are also shown what happens to beings trapped in the dream realm if they're forgotten

Though it's hard to say what effect this would've had on the Radiance specifically, considering she appears to be a higher being of the dream realm

[clever grove]

Yeah forgetting seems to be a pretty common theme. Especially when you think about how the Radiance invading dreams is like her etching herself in the bug's memory so she won't be forgotten

[clever grove]

Probably doesn't affect higher beings at all. Especially one that lives in the dream realm and can't really go outside of it. It's her domain

[fossil ledge]

Yes, it certainly seems that way

[fossil ledge]

Although this would make sense in principle, the Radiance's desperation to not be forgotten, to the point of appearing in any bug's dreams and not just the Moth Tribe's, would seem odd if being forgotten had no ill effects on the Radiance's wellbeing

[ancient dock]

I think all higher beings have their own dream domain but the radiance chooses to stay in hers for some reason

[ancient dock]

Maybe

[fossil ledge]

Perhaps she was (probably unintentionally) trapped there by the Moth Tribe when they ended up forgetting her, and then afterwards intentionally by the Pale King via the Hollow Knight

[ancient dock]

GMS doesn’t really have one too

[clever grove]

I took it as more of a symbolic sense than a literal sense. Like how they moved on without her. But it could be both literal and symbolic

[fossil ledge]

It being purely symbolic to me feels strange, considering the Radiance's reaction

[ancient dock]

Possibly

Trying to imagine her flying around crystal peak

[fossil ledge]

Because if it was only symbolic, why not direct her anger towards the Moth Tribe and then create a new one? My guess is she was too weak after being trapped and forgotten to do so, and so had to use any means available to survive

[winged trench]

Idk why there would be a full size ststue if she just... lived there already lol

[clever grove]

I still keep thinking about how the godhome ending leaves off on a cliffhanger. They never address it in silksong

[fossil ledge]

A pretty funny thought, but I was referring to being trapped in her dream realm specifically, and not being able to move freely to other dream realms. Not necessarily the physical world

[winged trench]

Radiance living in the dream realm fits with her generally being the god of that realm

[sudden pivot]

the Spirit's Glade has a Taboo around it being opened which is why it was sealed away interestingly enough, though there are a variety of bugs buried in there not just Moths, why would they not use their own native language in their own personal Graveyard? this isn't like the wider resting grounds which is more so dedicated to the citizens of Hallownest, the Spirit's Glade is clearly a very important location in the Moth's ethos, so it would only make sense for them to write at least the graves of their own people in their native language?

Firstly regarding the dev note, I am not saying its canon I am just saying it is an EXTREMELY strong piece of corroborative evidence to my point, as the argument you're now having to make is not just that PK didn't try to kill Radiance, but that he did in fact at some point in development and it has since been changed, which if there is no evidence to that point then requires additional assumptions compared to my hypothesis, I disagree vehemently that PK and White Lady are not depicted as oppressive though I dont think they were hostile, White Ladiy's desire to be worshiped and propagate herself is clear but as is her guilt for the suffering that desire has caused her subjects and children. Where the Pale King is involved, sure he rarely ever used military force, but thats because he knows it would be bad optics, we know he cares about how he appears to his citizens because he hid the creation of the vessels, he used many sneaky tactics like tricking his subjects into thinking there was no world beyond Hallownest and that he was the only way for bugs to achieve sentience which we know clearly isn't true

for uneven treaties we can see many, the Hive had to do metalworking for Hallownest (Hornet's Needle) and had to personally train PK's daughter, what did they get out of that? other than him not invading them I mean? same with him dumping his sewege in Fungal Wastes or annexing half of Unn territory (1/2)

[ancient dock]

It possible that she was definitely in the physical world at some point since she has statues

[clever grove]

It's pretty clear that silksong continues from the Dream No More ending. Not Embrace the Void

I know TC said that none of the endings are canon but Dream No More seems to fit the most with the events of silksong

[ancient dock]

They said all the endings are canon

But I imagine it more so different timelines

[winged trench]

Same difference

[clever grove]

But they can't all lead back to silksong cuz of sealed siblings

[winged trench]

Its up to intepretation, silksong doesnt necessarily point towards any specific ending as completely canon

[clever grove]

We know silksong has to take place after HK cuz Hornet references the events of HK multiple times

[sudden pivot]

exactly, there are no effiges of Radiance left except for the hidden one, there's no reason to assume thats the only one ever made and that her remaining followers wouldn't have built more if they were allowed, as for Seer's comment, that was a response to the argument that its more likely any effigies of Radiance were removed after the infection began as a way of curtailing it, we know that isn't the case because of Seer's statement of Hallownest being born of the Radiance being forgotten

yes I mostly agree her, I would add though that what im arguing is the fact that the Moth's didn't seem to abandon anything except for absolutely everything to do with Radiance implies heavily to me that PK uplifted aspects of Moth society that served his own ends and heavily oppressed those that didnt, the majority did defect willingly but the ones who didnt seem to have been dealt with harshly

I agree here and ues the stone carvings are what I meant :3 (cont.)

[ancient dock]

I think it really a legend of Zelda situation

All ending are canon but different ones splinter into different timelines

[zinc pivot]

Canonicity is too often understood as a singular main line story

[mortal birch]

At the end of Dream No More The Knight becomes a shade very similar ||to the one we see in the act 3 ending|| but all the shades die/go dormant

in the Embrace the void ending the shade lord looks nothing like the shade we see in ||act 3|| but the shade is still alive

so which ending is cannon

[clever grove]

But to me I can't see a timeline where silksong comes from the sealed siblings ending. All of the other ones I can see a timeline split but in sealed siblings Hornet is trapped in the black egg with her own Dreamer seal. Which means you would have to wake her from her slumber to unseal the black egg again. But you can't cuz she's inside the black egg😭

[zinc pivot]

The concept of multiple possiblities is quite a recent thing

[mortal birch]

i think that's the aspect people are missing

[ancient dock]

It always been a thing that a lot of franchises use

[ebon silo]

Ngl what happens if void makes contact to lava

[mortal birch]

it just changes the question to which ending is cannon to silksong

[ancient dock]

Just nowhere days it’s more common

[zinc pivot]

Which is only showing up in late 20 centuries - 21st

Any other alternate versions of stories were considered apocryphal

[clever grove]

I completely agree with this. The act 3 ending really supports it following the events of Dream No More

[zinc pivot]

But less about story telling meta we are skonging

[mortal birch]

i think it's likely the great events in the abyss awoke the shades

[clever grove]

I think so too

[mortal birch]

but yeah they look identical in both cutscenes from both games. shade lord is nothing like that

[ancient dock]

I think Marvel has been using it for a lot of their stories as of late but I can name several video game franchises that use alternate stories same characters

[mortal birch]

that doesn't mean that the other endings aren't cannon just that they didn't happen in silksong

[ebon silo]

I'm guessing the pantheon ending is Canon but slightly cut off

Hornet doenst meet whoever went inside the black egg temple what must've happened was the knight beat absolute radiance became the shade lord and at some point hornet got captured

we somehow see the void lord and the shade lord sooo

[mortal birch]

perhaps it can un shade lord transform

like an ability

[ancient dock]

I think Hornet was waiting beside the black egg in that ending

But the Knight never came

[clever grove]

Yeah maybe we'll get another game that explores a continuation from some of the other endings. I really wanna see a continuation from the godhome cliffhanger

[ebon silo]

but they're 2 entities technically? One is void given form and given focus

[mortal birch]

i think it's including the previous statement

like that was void with just form now it has focus

in my interpretation

[ebon silo]

What I basically said yeah

[zinc pivot]

I hate that our knight, holder of void heart, is synonymous with
Primal void tentacles

[scenic stirrup]

Is the knight before he became void lord stronger than hornet

[zinc pivot]

Should’ve called DNM knight void given mind

[sudden pivot]

I dont quite understand this point, what im saying is that assuming that the White Palace was the result of an ability Pale King has that is never mentioned or employed ever in any other context takes more assumptions than just assuming the Dream Magicians he ruled over helped him with moving his Palace there and setting it up, no? and again only other time we see white essence particles like that is when the Godseekers are trying to attune to him in the Dream World, I dont think we always see essence when something is dream world related but yes if you see it I think you can safely assume it is

the Knight never attempts to move anything other than themselves into the Dream World because they have no reason to, further more the Dreamnail is a sword which is said to cut between the realms, not an instrument that can be used for transporting whole structures into the Dream World, we know the Moths were capable of "delving among dreams" without the use of the sword, the reason none of them ever mastered the sword is because none of them ever tried to use it 'cause they were waiting for the Wielder, if a sword can allow one to cut open a hole in the realms to transport themselves and we know the Moths could do the same for themselves without the sword, it isn't much of a leap in logic to suggest that a whole court of Moths could perhaps transport a building, especially when there is lore precedent for them being able to do the same thing on a smaller scale but not for PK, also one final point is that the only thing to have the same dream seals on them as the White Palace and Pure Vessel is the Dreamer's Memorial in the resting grounds which the Knight only breaks free of once cutting themself out of the Dream World with the Dreamnail, suggesting all these seals are of Moth make

done!! ^^ sorry for so much ^^;

[ebon silo]

Dream magicians? You mean the moths right

[sudden pivot]

yes lols

[mortal birch]

https://tenor.com/view/arriba-gif-12324188786972117417

[clever grove]

Even then they never address THK free from their chains

[ebon silo]

Only the moths have access to the dream iirc and literally because they were created by the radiance

[mortal birch]

Based off of what hornet did to the green prince she killed bro

1000%

[clever grove]

Damn she's out for blood

[ancient dock]

I doubt it

[mortal birch]

they really should have directly connected the storylines more but i understand the choice not to and leave it open

[ancient dock]

They have no real reason to fight each other after the radiance death

[clever grove]

I mean they look like they're about to fight in the ending

[mortal birch]

Did she have a reason to fight green prince?

[clever grove]

Hornet gets in her taunt pose

[ancient dock]

I meant the Hollow Knight

[sudden pivot]

I interpret it as THK lashing out because he thinks if his seals are down someone is attacking him and Hornet just moves to defend herself

*they think
my bad!!!!!!!!!

[clever grove]

She's about to murder bro

[mortal birch]

no that's my point if she merked the green prince with no remorse after he asked her to leave then she might have killed THK

[lapis geode]

I think it could be the opposite

[ancient dock]

Green prince was a mercy kill

[mortal birch]

Grief doesn't mean i'm gonna kill you

[clever grove]

You're saying THK killed Hornet?

[ebon silo]

? The one in the black egg temple? That's what I said in my paragraph basically hornet got captured during or after the knight had beaten the pantheon and absolute radiance and teleported to somewhere else probably pharloom so what I mean is they must've retcon that part

[clever grove]

In that case it wouldn't be canon

[lapis geode]

THK is too skilled to be underestimated.
Hornet may got a chance, but not without one or two limbs being cut

[sudden pivot]

he actively tried to get her out of his mind, I guess he seemed pretty suicidal but I feel like just killing the guy before he asks for it is kinda premature

[ancient dock]

She only fought him cuase he got angry that she was actively invading his memory

[mortal birch]

also someone asked early but i reckon the knight is stronger than hornet beacuse the knight canonically beats hornet in fights multiple times

[sudden pivot]

she does also have no remorse for what she does to the Stilkin who are a pretty objectively sympathetic faction

[zinc pivot]

Hornet was more about self preservation, even if she didn’t die in a memory it would hurt like hell

[sudden pivot]

I could see that perhaps

[mortal birch]

castle statute or something he was trying to defend his mind bro that she entered without permission

[clever grove]

The only way I can see that being canon is if Hornet left behind her cocoon after THK killed her. But even then she has all of her silk at the start of silksong. I don't understand this interpretation

[zinc pivot]

Stilkins are too deep into their savagery to see reason

[midnight tree]

We All know Quirrel solos, am I right lads?
(Also WTF came out of GMS in the Cursed Ending)

[heavy falcon]

I think she has a decent chance, 50/50 imo

[sudden pivot]

-Grand Mother Silk

[mortal birch]

big monster

[ancient dock]

If he as strong as pure vessel maybe not

[sudden pivot]

Embrace the Void THK aint as strong as Pure Vessel either tho

[zinc pivot]

We dont know if the circular thing is GMS or Hornet laying an egg

[heavy falcon]

I mean, would you be as strong as your prime when you got imprisoned for who knows how long, and got filled with orange juice

[mortal birch]

THK even without the infection is not pure vessel

[sudden pivot]

not only was that THK in its prime but the atunning process buffs the bosses

lore-wise I mean

[clever grove]

Well it depends if once Abs Rad was defeated if THK regained all of his energy. It was sapped containing the infection

[midnight tree]

Ngl It's a Fair fight, I do not think Hornet would kill him, she would Sense the fact the fact that he was not Infected After fighting a little.
And THK is way stronger than Her, but here he is Very weak.
So Yeah, 50/50 but no One dies imo

[mortal birch]

THK isn't pure

[ancient dock]

Probably not

[sudden pivot]

it was still exhausted, that much is clear from the way it carries itself in the cutscene, also again the point about bosses in Godhome being buffed

[midnight tree]

It's the parasite I'm pretty Sure, but what would It look like? I Think It may resemble Greyroot in some way.

[ancient dock]

Pure Vessal is THK in his prime

[zinc pivot]

Pure as in no orange juice OD

[mortal birch]

Untrue

[sudden pivot]

a little stronger than prime THK because atunning buffs them

[zinc pivot]

Wdym untrue lol

[clever grove]

To me godhome can't lead into silksong for this reason. Sealed siblings and base ending for obvious reasons. So by process of elimination that just leaves dream no more

[mortal birch]

Is pure vessel not an alternate reality in which he never felt compassion for TPK

[zinc pivot]

Its their ideal self more like

[midnight tree]

Nope. It's Just his prime before being sealed.

[zinc pivot]

Pure Vessel is genderless

[sudden pivot]

is there a reason Hornet and THK cant have just gone their seperate ways after that cutscene? its more the Shade Lord being released into the Junk Pit that seems to disqualify it to me

[clever grove]

That's correct. It's like a what if scenario where THK is truly hollow

[midnight tree]

A little buffed by attunement tho

[zinc pivot]

Attunement isnt a little buff

[mortal birch]

that's what i got

[clever grove]

I can see that. It just looked like Hornet was about to fight cuz she was in her taunt pose

[sudden pivot]

im not sure, their dream nail dialogue is like "do not think... do not speak... do not hope..."

[sudden pivot]

I think thats just her battle-ready position

[kindred verge]

that was cut

[mortal birch]

this is a good point

[sudden pivot]

I thought it was just inaccessible?

like isn't it still there just blocked by a seal for lore reasons?

[clever grove]

Why would they go their separate ways though? Would Hornet just abandon THK? Or does she think they're hostile and flees?

[mortal birch]

the fact you can't dream nail him would prove my point if you can't dream nail him

[clever grove]

Yeah that's a good point. Perhaps it's THK in their prime

[kindred verge]

yeah you can't dream nail PV

[clever grove]

Oh wait it's cut dream nail dialouge

[kindred verge]

you could in testing but they changed it for release

[sudden pivot]

I mean I like to think they move in together and then Hornet gets kidnaped one day and then at the end of Silksong her and Lace go back home to Hallownest and live out a domestic fanfic with their giant trauma baby, but thats just me X3

[mortal birch]

and THK was corrupted as a small vessel so he should have had dream nail dialoige by time he was big if he was still curropted (by love)

[clever grove]

Haha I like that ngl. They deserve to live a happy life after all the drama they went through. Also lacenet shipper?

[zinc pivot]

Reminder that you can only dream nail THK in the first place after hornet has help restricting and cracking their face open

Or widen the existing crack

[sudden pivot]

I would be because I love their personalities together but I dont feel like engaging in age gap discourse ;-;

[clever grove]

Maybe TC originally planned on it being THK in their prime but then rolled with the alternate reality idea in the final version

[clever grove]

Oh no worries I get that

[lapis geode]

Kinda true. I personally think at least, Lace will be brought to Bellhome.
But Shakra already there... hmm... this is tough

[sudden pivot]

is it cut? like I said I thought it was only inaccessible

im pretty sure if you modded the game to remove PV's seal and then dream nailed it you'd still get that dialouge, could be super wrong tho

[kindred verge]

actually dreamingvoidd mentioned a good point, I don't think you can dream nail THK either

[mint furnace]

Hornet didn’t leave hallownest by choice, so she probably didn’t

We don’t know what’s left of it but I’d imagine she’d try to rebuild

[craggy bison]

i don't even understand what we did in the true ending, like how does rescuing lace stop the void

[sudden pivot]

no you cant, it's dialogue is actually cut iirc and not just inaccessible, I could be remembering wrong though

[mint furnace]

GMS was only fighting to protect lace

[clever grove]

It's been a while since I played HK so I'm not sure but I know that the intent for the final version is to not have the dream nail dialogue so it's prob an alternate reality

[lapis geode]

In the end, every descendent of Hallownest always try to
help their kingdom. Pale king would be proud

[fossil ledge]

We only see three Moth Tribe members' graves there, so calling it the Moth Tribe graveyard seems somewhat innacurate, at least for that purpose. That said, all the spirits within them are active, so perhaps it was a place otherwise special? Could be that the backer shrine has something to do with it, or perhaps the location being closest to the Crystal Peaks? Or perhaps it was just sealed because of Revek being a potential danger to trespassers lol.

Either ways, we do indeed not see any glyphs here, which goes back to what I was saying earlier that perhaps those glyphs in the Crystal Peaks have a specific purpose unique to that location, which is why they aren't found elsewhere. Could be a magic record of the Moth Tribe's history, a spell or something else. Either ways, seemingly not suited to marking graves with.

Although I get where you're coming from, dev notes are not canon. They aren't extremely strong pieces of corroborative evidence, they are merely a window into the development history of the game. As for whether or not he tried to kill the Radiance at some point remains unknown, because nothing that suggests this is mentioned anywhere.

Where was it even suggested that the White Lady wanted to be worshipped? To propagate yes, but how is this oppressive? The guilt she feels is for the part she played in the creation of vessels, not sure how her subjects are involved here.

Curious, regarding the Pale King's reason for not using military might, is this a guess or is there something that suggests this might be the case?

Seeing as he basically never made public appearances, and his depictions get his anatomy wrong, I don't think he cared too much about his public image.

We know the vessels themselves were no secret, and to some their creation also wasn't. Are you referring to the sealing of the Abyss? Cause that was sealed for different reasons, and there's a tablet at the door stating what the purpose was.

[fossil ledge]

I don't know if the Pale King himself wrote the King's Pass tablets, because there's odd things like him being referred to in third person. Regardless, everyone knew there were other civilizations because pilgrims and wanderers were constantly visiting Hallownest. The same thing applies for sentience and the surrounding tribes. This is also mentioned in the King's Pass tablets themselves. Curious though, what did you find that suggests he claimed he was the only source of higher thought?

The kingdom and the Hive have no interactions in HK. In SS it's revealed Hornet was trained there and granted a blade, but that's it. Assuming it was a negative interaction seems baseless, no? Especially since the queen of the Hive herself was involved and had a positive relation with Hornet.

Again, neither tribe affected mentions the sewage, and we see no negative environmental impact. That is assuming it even accumulated in the Fungal Wastes and didn't pass through. It definitely looks weird to see the sewage run on there, I fully agree, but seeing as it isn't mentioned anywhere else, my guess is it wasn't a big deal. It might have even had a positive effect, considering the Mushroom Clan are mushrooms, and if they are anything like mushrooms IRL feed on decomposing matter.

Unn's territory is odd. It would seem the kingdom just built stuff there and the Mosskin Tribe didn't involve themselves or interfere beyond warning others to mind their laws in their land beyond the Pilgrim's Way and fellow Mosskin Tribe to avoid the Queen's Gardens. Not sure what the deal is with Fog Canyon. Wish we knew more about these things, cause the kingdom says nothing on them and the Mosskin Tribe are very vague.

[kindred verge]

holy walls of text

[sudden pivot]

I guess I interpret it differently, leaving the dialogue in the game instead of just making it a "..." or something like Broken Vessel? to me that choice says "its still thinking these things you just cant see it with the Dreamnail because it has a dream seal on it for lore reasons"

[ancient dock]

Doesn’t the pure vessel still have dream nail thoughts though

[mint furnace]

I’d imagine he would be proud that his three surviving children eventually did succeed, so it wasn’t for nothing

[lapis geode]

GMS: "All of that for your children??"
Pale King: "...why not?"
GMS: "I did the same."

[sudden pivot]

oh gosh, I totally forgot about this, yeah im not gonna lie I definitely dont have it in me to respond to this conversation again tonight X3 im fine with you having the last word here as far as the public debate goes, if you dont mind i'd love to respond to this either here or in dms another day!!! ^^

[lapis geode]

Basically if GMS not try to fight the void to keep Lace save
then the trendills from her silk wouldn't spread

[mint furnace]

Pale king: so how many did you lose?

GMS: “oh yeah, one didn’t turn out well but they’re down in the exhaust control, how about you?”

Pale king: “eh, give or take 50,000”

[clever grove]

I'd have to do research on whether it's still in the game but I get what you're saying

[fossil ledge]

That's fair, this is indeed a very interesting conversation but the walls of text are interrupting others and I'm quite tired myself too xD

Perhaps if you prefer I can reply some time today or tomorrow in #hk-lore and you can reply when you want too

[ancient dock]

I imagine he got scribes to write lore tablets

[sudden pivot]

oooooo yes very clever thats a wonderful idea!!!! :D I will respond to your latest messages hopefully tomorrow but whenever im able to, and you can do the same? :3

[full verge]

did phantom teaches lace the counter technique and lace teaches phantom her attacking and piercing techinique (inserts monkey thinking picture )

[clever grove]

They learned it from the sentinels. They have the same attacks

[fossil ledge]

Could very well be, or his followers set these up with little or none of his involvement

[full verge]

oh i see lol

[fossil ledge]

Sounds like a plan!

[ancient dock]

Possibly, they’re is definitely someone who documents history in HK

[fossil ledge]

Candidates are Monomon the Teacher, Lurien the Watcher or scholars of the Soul Sanctum

It might even have been the Moth Tribe, considering they also have light glyphs inscribed on stone in their temple atop the Crystal Peaks

[clever grove]

Definitely leaning towards Monomon

It was kinda her thing to write stuff down like about the lumaflies

And the poem at the beginning of the game

[fossil ledge]

My thoughts too

[ancient dock]

Probably

[ancient dock]

It possible that they duel each other regularly

[sudden pivot]

before I go to bed there is one topic mentioned here that I would like to go more into depth on in the here and now, and thats dev notes/removed content, I am very well aware that something being a window into the development of the game doesn't necessarily make it a corroborative piece of evidence to anything in the final game, a simple example is early Godseeker dialogue from early in her devlopment where she treated the Godtuner as something extremely valuable to be giving away, and also treats the Knight with reverence on their first meeting, clearly diametrically opposed to Godseeker's personality in the final game, however it doesn't necessarily mean something being a window into development and it being a corroborative piece of evidence to canon are mutally exclusive either, to use an example from the Mossbag video, he used the cut version of the lore tablet outside the Abyss which contained the slightly altered line "From below, our Pure Vessel has ascended" to corroborate his perspective that the Vessels were racing to the top rather than being selected for and cast back down into the Abyss, is that not a totally valid point for him to have made? and we know there are often cases of dialouge being changed to mean effectively the same thing but being less on-the-nose and more open to interpretation, (see "Void given Mind" became "Void given Focus") so we know that not every cut line was cut because its not lore relevant, if the evidence in canon points to what is directly stated in a cut line, which in my opinion where this is concerned it does, can one not just assume that line was cut for the sake of a "show dont tell" principle to make the Story more complex to grasp? I guess what im saying is I dont understand the logic of dismissing a cut statement that doesn't contradict anything in canon (sorry I really didnt expect this message to be this long....)

[fossil ledge]

My point is more that using dev notes to fill in something as major as pretty important historical event within the story feels like a reach. I'm not against analysing dev notes to help fill in the gaps here in there, but it must be supplementary and taken with a grain of salt

In the example you showed, Mossbag's use of the dev note or cut content not only doesn't contradict anything in-game, but confirms what we already see. The Knight is a vessel climbing to the top

What left room for speculation is that the Knight is in a memory and being controlled by the player, but the dev note lends credence to this being accurate to historical events

[sudden pivot]

okay wonderful! :D im glad we can agree there, I felt like I was using it as supplementary material but we can argue that another time, to again compare it to the Mossbag example, the line im referencing contradicts nothing stated in canon and is consistent with everything we know about PK's personality and goals

(in my opinion)

[fossil ledge]

As for the Void given Mind vs Focus, I believe this was changed to be more in line with the established canon

Given how important the whole mind thing is when it comes to vessels and the void

[sudden pivot]

I mean they effectively mean the same thing no? one is just worded in a less explicit way to maintain the mystique of the Vessel's nature, we know the Vessels have wills which kind of requires a mind, and that they can be tarnished by ideas instilled which would also logically require a mind

[fossil ledge]

Yes! To me it seemed like you were using it as direct evidence of the Pale King having manipulated the Moth Tribe into following as opposed to them merely choosing him, the latter of which is what everything we see and read in game suggests. As it somewhat contradicts, I disagreed with its use in this particular case

Same thing when it comes to the Pale King's personality and goals. We see every other tribe got to choose freely and without repercussions, with their choice and boundaries being respected

Yes, his goal was to be worshipped and followed, but he wanted it to be by choice, not force

[sudden pivot]

"the latter of which is what everything we see and read in game suggests" there is ONE line that suggests it and a dozen others from the Hunter and bitter ex-citizens blaming the Kingdom and its rulers for the infection, narratively it is absolutely implied to be PKs fault, which is corroborated by the fact that we know 100% it was absolutely his fault at some point in the lore's development, as well as in the current canon we know he has extreme authoritarian and territorial impulses due to his nature as a Pale Wyrm, as well as from the fact that he made attempt to colonize Deepnest and I would agrue forced a bunch of uneven treaties but I haven't read your response to that argument yet so I wont make it in case you already debunked it

[sudden pivot]

if he wanted his followers to have a choice he wouldn't have told them his Kingdom was the entire world

and that he was the only was to be sentient, which is what Elegy of Hallownest implies he taught

[fossil ledge]

But he taught this to the native bugs of Hallownest, which he did elevate from beasts to sapient bugs

Again, everyone would know that the world was greater and there were other ways to be sapient cause they had quite a few pilgrims and wanderers, not to mention neighbouring tribes

And this is assuming he actually claimed that himself, and that what's written on the tablets wasn't done by someone else

[sudden pivot]

yes, but we know that isn't an ability exclusive to him because the citizens of other Kingdoms are sapient too, obviously its reasonable for his subjects to worship him for that but the point im making is that he didn't allow them to know there was any others who could do the same for them, we know they didn't think there was any world beyond thanks to the Lore Tablets in King's Pass, and we can assume Wanderers would arrive with empty minds because of the Wastes Beyond and then get inducted into the Kingdom, as for the neighboring tribes I would simply argue the average Hallownest citizen believed he gave them sapience as well and they used it to defy him hence why they are lesser

[fossil ledge]

His fault you mean the infection? From what I gathered, characters are blaming him for going against nature, not causing the infection, no?

[scenic stirrup]

How come the delicate flower gets destroyed instantly in og hollow knight but when hornet has it doesn't

[fossil ledge]

Regarding the Deepnest tramway, we don't really know what's going on there. Perhaps they were merely extending the tramway and stumbled upon Deepnest territory before establishing relations, who retaliated and put an end to it. Unlikely, but perhaps this was done after the dealings with Deepnest, who disagreed and put an aggressive end to it.

My leading theory is that the Weavers and Spider Tribe were okay with it, but the beasts of Deepnest simply attacked and made it impossible to actually build

[scenic stirrup]

Any theories chat

[fossil ledge]

It probably has something to do with the Everblood in Silksong being a power-imbued object from Hornet's memories

Different from normal delicate flowers

[maiden meteor]

Or Ze’mer’s Everbloom being weaker due to being so far away from homeland

[scenic stirrup]

Makes sense

Where did everbloom come from anyway

[maiden meteor]

LoS is also a lot of void

[fossil ledge]

Wouldn't the same apply to Pharloom, though?

[maiden meteor]

I theorize it’s just something Pale Beings can make

[fossil ledge]

Potentially, anyway

[maiden meteor]

well, it was fished from memory and empowered by 3 hearts so who knows

[scenic stirrup]

Also just noticed theres a lot of silk spools in hidden station

[fossil ledge]

Assuming it is the same as the delicate flower, it was once one of the blooms brought to Hallownest by the knight Ze'mer

[maiden meteor]

Silk was used for Seals and writing parchments

[scenic stirrup]

Oh whered yall read that

[fossil ledge]

The issue with this theory is that the White Lady claims the delicate flower is not of her in Hollow Knight

[fossil ledge]

The latter is stated by Lemm the Relic Seeker

[maiden meteor]

There’s unfinished Black Egg seal inside Weavers’ Den. and Lemm talks about Hallownest citizens using silk for parchments

[fossil ledge]

The former is implied with the Seal of Binding being found in the Weaver's Den and the nurse NPC stating Weavers could weave spells and such with their silk

[maiden meteor]

Yeah, the one Knight gets from Ze’mer

Silksong flower could be from her though

[fossil ledge]

I suppose so, but it feels a bit contradictory, no? To make such a major point of it being unrelated in the first game only to do a 180 in this one?

[maiden meteor]

My main point for this theory is that WL straight up refuses taking flower from Ze’mer

[sudden pivot]

hmm yes that may have been a misinterpretation on my part, I saw blaming him for going against nature and trying to stop the infection as being effectively the same thing, we know he had limited future vision so her probably saw a vague premonition of Radiance destroying everything he built and decided to try and put a stop to her early, while the Hunter talks about the sealing of the Hollow Knight cause thats all he knows about, I feel like narratively its talking more so about his inital targeting of the Radiance, cause like, I dont really get how he's a fool or in the wrong for trying to prevent the infection from spreading, the implication would be the infections existence itself is the result of him trying to war against nature, no? Radiance is also implied to be a universal being not just present in Hallownest though thats where she crafted her children, her light is referred to as natural is it not? so warring against her would be inherently warring against nature

[maiden meteor]

which would be weird if she had no issue with that prior

[mortal birch]

Do we know anything about the origin of Pale Beings

are they pale beings of something specific like "god of light or god of silk"? are they defined that way just cause they're white? are they defined that way just cause they're powerful? How about giving sentience is that all Pale Beings? The Pale King did it and GMS likely did as well with the weavers being elevated and the skrill outside her reach being stupid.

[sudden pivot]

I think its like being born a shiny pokemon, its a random chance for any creature to be born magical and way stronger than their kin (see Palestag)

[heavy falcon]

Pale maggot when

[maiden meteor]

Pale Groal

[sudden pivot]

we assumably have Pale Slugs :) since thats almost certainly what the Pale Oil's description means by "Slyphean Slugs"

[heavy falcon]

Pale Cicada technically. It's interesting how both soul master and groal are the same species

[ancient dock]

The fact that Hornet received a everbloom from the WL in the red memory is a interesting case though

[sudden pivot]

I dont think they are...? the citizens of Hallownest are their own species and then the Stilkin are their own species, I think they just superficially resemble each other because they're both bloated by Soul

[fossil ledge]

From what I can gather, most don't know the Radiance exists. They were against the Pale King trying to prevent the inevitable fall of his kingdom in regards to "everything that rises must also fall", denying it its natural conclusion. Vespa especially goes into detail about this.

Although it's possible he tried to put a stop to the Radiance early, we unfortunately have nothing to go off of except for the "no blazing kin" tablet, but this too could've been post-infection.

I believe some call him a fool for trying to prevent a natural end to his kingdom, and the Mushroom Clan, for being able to see the future but unable to prevent it. They're especially upset about this because his foresight is the main reason they decided to follow him

As for whether the Radiance is implied to be a universal being is hard to say. I feel like if she was we'd be seeing the effects of it in Pharloom as well, no?

[mortal birch]

What is "Stilken"

[sudden pivot]

maybe im misspelling it but its what the people who live in Bilewater are called

[mortal birch]

i see

[sudden pivot]

hmmm interesting, I will think and sleep on this, thank you so much for the wonderful discussion!!! ^^

[heavy falcon]

The bush people!

[sudden pivot]

that could also mean the Mosskin tbf

[mortal birch]

are the residents of pharloom naturally sentient or where they elevated?

like those bush people and the pilgrims

[fossil ledge]

Likewise! I enjoyed myself quite a bit You definitely had me evaluating everything I knew about the lore in HK lol

[mortal birch]

like the spiders were elevated

[maiden meteor]

evil Bush people

[maiden meteor]

I assume that majority of pilgrims derived from Nameless Town bugs

[fossil ledge]

Some where some weren't. We know the Skarr, the Verdanian tribe, Nyleth's tribe and the Crust tribe all had sapience before

[modest coyote]

craws

[fossil ledge]

Weavers were elevated from Pharlids

Stilkin and Craws are unknown, but my guess is they were also sapient

[modest coyote]

ok well we dont know craws had sapience before, but they do have silk independent sapience

[fossil ledge]

Or developed it in the time since, anyway

[modest coyote]

they literally have a functioning court system

[fossil ledge]

I mean yes, they are certainly sapient now

[sudden pivot]

lmao thank you!!!! :D you certainly have given me a lot to think about as well, I would leave off on the closing statement that I still think it implied narratively in just about every line its mentioned except for that one Seer line that PK purposefully tried to get rid of Radiance, but I no longer see someone who doesn't hold that position's perspective as invalid like I probably would have at the beginning of this convo

[maiden meteor]

Silk seems to be like Rad in terms she only really elevated her own tribe

[mortal birch]

perhaps elevated by other pale beings. it would be an interesting diversion from HK if there were species of bugs not elevated by anybody

[modest coyote]

thats why PK the goat

[edgy barn]

That wouldn't make much sense tho. Nameless Town Is directly above the citadel while pilgrims come from around Pharloom

[maiden meteor]

we already had those in first game tho

namely Ancient Civilization and Mantises and presumably Deepnest

[edgy barn]

and Hive

[fossil ledge]

Mantis Tribe, the Hive and Mushroom Clan all have no known higher being involvement

[mortal birch]

Vespa was a pale being

[sudden pivot]

Shroomals :3

[maiden meteor]

Well, first Pilgrims descended from Surface into Pharloom and began growing there

[sudden pivot]

is their name

[fossil ledge]

Same thing for the Spider Tribe, assuming the Weaver's didn't get involved

[mortal birch]

i think?

[sudden pivot]

nothing suggesting that :O

[modest coyote]

weavers arent pale

[heavy falcon]

Isn't she just a bee

[mortal birch]

SHES MORE THAN JUST A BEE

[modest coyote]

if vespa is a pale being so is karmelita

[heavy falcon]

She queen bee

[modest coyote]

(neither are pale)

[mortal birch]

thank you

[fossil ledge]

Correct, but they are quite connected to the Spider Tribe in Deepnest, and could have had a hand in advancing their civilization or something to that effect.

Obviously not directly like GMS with Weavers or Pale King with Hallownest bugs, but a more normal way

[sudden pivot]

shes a big 'ol bee!!! very well fed :3

[maiden meteor]

Vespa is probably above-average being but not Higher

[mortal birch]

so some bugs are just naturally stupid and some bugs are naturally smart i find that hard to believe ngl

[maiden meteor]

so likes of Karmelita or Khann

[modest coyote]

same thing in real life bb

[maiden meteor]

humans and apes situation basically

[edgy barn]

why?

[modest coyote]

jumping spiders are intelligent comp to other spiders

[sudden pivot]

why? we know there's a distinction between animalistic bugs anthropomorphic bugs

[cedar owl]

so we got:
higher beings
above-average beings
mid beings
below average beings
lower beings

[mortal birch]

up until last week i thought in real life all bugs act like automatons

[fossil ledge]

We know bugs with strong wills and likely powerful godly resonances are very long-lived, unfluential and powerful. Furthermore, these clan leaders seem to have some connection to the land and wellbeing of their kingdom, beyond that of normal leaders

[mortal birch]

and didn't really have sentience like that

[sudden pivot]

I personally think the Sire of Deepnest was a Higher Being, I take the name to imply he spawned the deephunter race and I interpet "their Sire, once of honoured caste" as meaning "of high caste", just my head canon though :3

[mortal birch]

i now know differently

[modest coyote]

no only the gay ones

[fossil ledge]

The choristors are also regarded as a different caste to others, yet are normal bugs (besides being injected with silk)

[modest coyote]

which ones are the choristors again?

[maiden meteor]

I think Sire was part of Hallownest aristocracy

[fossil ledge]

The cloaked bugs you fight in the citadel with the symbol on their faces

[modest coyote]

oh yeah

[maiden meteor]

and dipped because he’s freaky for spiders

[mortal birch]

so the haunting wasnt really caused directly by GMS at all right?

[sudden pivot]

yeah but this message comes from Shroomals who have zero conception of caste systems due to being a hivemind, they would only really be able to tell the difference between mortal and immortal no?

[fossil ledge]

My point being, we don't know for sure that the king of Deepnest was a higher being

[mortal birch]

i mean the injecting of silk

[maiden meteor]

it was, but bugs being injected with silk made it much easier for her

[fossil ledge]

This is a good point, especially since they regard all minds that aren't part of a hive mind as inferior, except for the Pale King's I suppose

[maiden meteor]

she just had to “tie” their silk to hers instead of breaking their will

[sudden pivot]

they also call Herrah "but the common bug" in contrast to the sire, which, I dont see how she could be considered that way as a Weaver unless she were being compared to a full on higher-being

[mortal birch]

that helps make more sense thank you

[maiden meteor]

they’re racist to weavers

[fossil ledge]

That said, it could also just be them writing down what they know. They also denounce them and vow to be forever at odds with Deepnest, so

[viscid ridge]

Seems like bugs got injected with silk, and it was passed down generations, so when the haunting started, those who got silk stuck around their organs got easily trapped

[mortal birch]

and the haunting started when GMS woke up and realized what the weavers had done?

[sudden pivot]

I think they find his singular mind still inferior to their hivemind but acknowledge his greater power in every other aspect, thats my interpretation

[cedar owl]

imagine being worshipped as a deity in pharloom and then going to hallownest and some dipshits call you a "common bug"

[fossil ledge]

Herrah being a Weaver is a bit odd with Silksong context, but yeah, this is true

[sudden pivot]

the Deepnest Weaver lore is honestly so funny when you think about it

[fossil ledge]

This could also be, yes

[maiden meteor]

Weavers chose literally the worst place to settle in

[fossil ledge]

I mean, it was great for them

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, seems like the haunting is a result of grandmother silk finding out the weavers betrayed her, so in order to not be betrayed again, she started to control all her other subjects so it wouldn't happen again

[fossil ledge]

They seem to like dark caverns, if the bases we find in Pharloom are any indication

[sudden pivot]

"oh man, what if GMS wakes up some day....? I'll just go to another, way safer kingdom, that will last forever where nothing bad will ever happen :)"

[cedar owl]

the weavers have been retconned so hard
they from hut witches to arcane illuminati that trapped a god, created the catholic church and tried to birth cathullu

[fossil ledge]

Real xD

[sudden pivot]

for real, the fact that one of the basic enemies you kill in Deepnest are INFECTED BABY WEAVERS 😭

[mortal birch]

and pollution climate change experts

the smog machine

[edgy barn]

Depends, was the pale king already there when they arrived? It would make sense they would want the region where he is the less influent.

[maiden meteor]

tbf first game had like 5 lines about weavers

[viscid ridge]

I mean they also helped trap a god in hallownest, so that ability didn't come out of nowhere

[sudden pivot]

big true

[maiden meteor]

Herrah was also considered powerful enough to be Dreamer

[wicked fossil]

Plus the Snail Shamans are capable of devising a void trap for a pale higher being

[mortal birch]

That makes sense it also explains why she made lace and phantom

[wicked fossil]

and they were just standing around and stuff

[mortal birch]

fuck the snail shamans

[sudden pivot]

tbf idk if thats a power thing I dont think anything suggests Lurien did anything other than be insanely devoted to PK to get his position

[maiden meteor]

tbf I think they just opened portal to void hell

[wicked fossil]

Fair

[edgy barn]

she wasn't a weaver back then tho

[maiden meteor]

portals aren’t that hard are they

[mortal birch]

"we have a TRAP planned"

the trap in question: 💣

[cedar owl]

if cave johnson can do it, anyone can

[heavy falcon]

Worlds largest sticky trap

[wicked fossil]

Yeah they did open a portal to the Abyss

[maiden meteor]

When life gives you muckmaggots DONT PICKLE THEM

[sudden pivot]

I feel like Herrah being a Weaver cant have been a retconn because Hornet has Weaver abilities in the first game, but... uh... if it wasn't a retconn than what the fuck is Herrah's deal?

[wicked fossil]

I do wonder though why the Weaver's Den in Deepnest isn't as advanced as the Weavenests in Pharloom

[maiden meteor]

rotund

[sudden pivot]

they doubtfully built the Weavnests themselves that was likely done through Pilgrim labour

[maiden meteor]

Weavenests were designed as save havens to devise against GMS so

[fossil ledge]

I don't disagree with this statement, I've just always been of the belief this was after the infection began. Mostly because if the Moth Tribe willingly left her and they were the only ones worshipping her, then what was the issue? Unless the Pale King foresaw she would wipe out his kingdom, so he pre-emptively tried to find ways to trap her.

That said, I've not found much that suggests a timeline of him doing this pre-emptively, except for, again, that one "no blazing kin tablet"

More specifically, I never saw him manipulating the Moth Tribe into following him and him wanting to be the only god to rule as accurate given what we see from the other tribes and what the Moth Tribe says

Either ways, I'm glad to have been able to share the possibility of a different perspective

[wicked fossil]

Ah I can get behind that

[maiden meteor]

Hallownest den was probably just more humble

[viscid ridge]

Lowkey wish we got to see more bug food, that was very interesting to me. We got all sorts of stuff for the gourmand, necter, flea brew and muckroaches and stuff.

[mint furnace]

When was it not stated Hera isn’t a weaver

[wicked fossil]

Ohhh I see, and Weaver's Den wouldn't need to be that protected

[mint furnace]

I feel like hk made that pretty clear

[mortal birch]

She is literally a spider

[mint furnace]

Yeah

[sudden pivot]

sorry the double negative is frying my brain, rephrase please?

[edgy barn]

Does she though? Which of Hornet's abilities could have been connected to weavers with the context of the first game alone?

[wicked fossil]

I think some text referred to Herrah as a common bug in the context of marrying Deepnest's king

[kindred verge]

thread

[wicked fossil]

Though I suppose Weavers aren't a big deal in Hallownest

[mint furnace]

Well, I’d assume that’s because weavers are like tier 1.5 gods

[edgy barn]

Except they are

[wicked fossil]

Ah right, the seals if I'm not mistaken

[mint furnace]

Also weaver genes seem to have been diluted over time

[sudden pivot]

spontenious generation of magic silk, one can easily surmise it is magic because it hurts which normal silk would not do no matter how much force you used in slamming it into someone

[maiden meteor]

only in context of deal with PK really

[mortal birch]

are they? what gives the impression? silk?

[maiden meteor]

for normal bug they weren’t really a big deal

[edgy barn]

Herrah is first generation

[modest coyote]

its illegal to be fat apparently

[mint furnace]

The citadel goes for ones with even 1/16th descendants

[sudden pivot]

also her silk is able to reveal the Hollow Knight's mind

[mortal birch]

i spotted that and hornets 1/2 imagine what they'd do to her bro

[fossil ledge]

Thing is, this could have been assumed to be her Wyrm half being responsible for this

[viscid ridge]

My guess is that the mushrooms who called herrah a common bug, had no clue of what power the weavers had, but it seems strange

[wicked fossil]

I do wonder for when they captured Weavers in other kingdoms, did they do it publicly or did they sneakily capture them

[mint furnace]

Just compared to the powers that pale king, radiance, gms, etc have

[cedar owl]

if youre referring to hallownest, then no not really, hornet is said to be one-half weaver, which implies her mother is one-oneth weaver

[wicked fossil]

Cause I imagine those other kingdoms would probably still be thriving and have governments

[mint furnace]

I’m just saying in general

[maiden meteor]

ehh who would care for half blood weavers being captured

[mint furnace]

Though yes herrah is 100% weaver

[mortal birch]

it seems like the game portrays the ability of "silk" as an incredibly powerful one

[sudden pivot]

that requires additonal assumptions, nothing suggesting Wyrms have the ability to make a strand of silk hit harder than it normally would, nor is there any lore about Wyrms being able to spin silk

[kindred verge]

there's literally an area in Deepnest called "Weaver's Den"

[viscid ridge]

Probably sneakily, i dont see how they could have captured hornet otherwise, but they also seem to be very prepared to catch weavers

[mint furnace]

Well, what are the people gonna do? Speak up about it?

[wicked fossil]

Yeah fair, I mostly thought of this with the idea that they were in kingdoms with authorities and stuff

Unless a lot of kingdoms are just as dilapidated as Pharloom and Hallownest

[fossil ledge]

I'm referring specifically to the ability to focus soul within one's shell for use in spells. If Herrah was Spider Tribe and Hornet half spider, then this focus could manifest through her silk

[maiden meteor]

we don’t even know if other kingdoms are still thriving

[kindred verge]

Grimm sort of implies this is the case

[sudden pivot]

and me to you as well!!! thank you so much for the lovely conversation, ima go to bed for real for real now X3 🫶

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I was thinking that as well

Also if I'm not mistaken, isn't Silk just soul refined into threads?

[edgy barn]

It is

[maiden meteor]

Third time we find Mr Mushroom world of Hollow Knight will finally thrive

[mortal birch]

Is his name herald

[trim lark]

or go to DEEP shit

[kindred verge]

I think that's a fairly safe assumption, but not one that's explicitly stated

[mortal birch]

or is that his title

[viscid ridge]

Hornet 100% could use soul spells if she wanted to, shes just too cool for it

[sudden pivot]

still requires the additonal assumption that Silk could be generated through Focus, there's nothing in the first game that confirms the magic of Weaver Silk is because its imbued with soul we dont get that still Silksong so a Hollow Knight player couldn't have reasonably extrapolated that

[wicked fossil]

Yeah that's fair

[maiden meteor]

title

[edgy barn]

The seamstress does explicitly state it.

[maiden meteor]

his name is Mr Mushroom

[cedar owl]

couldn't have been sneakily, there were like 20 bugs from the choir and chorisors in each party. and in every mission they faced resistence

[sudden pivot]

anyways gn yall :3 thanks for the great convos and keeping me company ^^

[viscid ridge]

Yeah we also see at our workbench the description of silk is thread infused with soul

[mortal birch]

one day we will understand the full story.

[fossil ledge]

Doesn't the nurse spider directly state that Weavers could focus soul through their silk?

Lemme find it

[wicked fossil]

Yeah they probably dealt with any bugs that did try to stop them from capturing the Weavers

[trim lark]

i believe seamstress or someone says that hornets ability of weaving soul into silk was saught after

[sudden pivot]

I dont remember that but if im wrong im wrong! :3

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I do recall that

[mint furnace]

I wonder if it’s only their silk

[kindred verge]

"...to channel one's soul within a thread. Soul and Silk inseparably linked. It is a skill almost lost from Pharloom. Those old Weavers shared it, but they're long dead now."

[mint furnace]

If they just got a bunch of regular spiders, could they focus through their non soul threads?

Is this the threads that are important or the weaver

[trim lark]

do they have non soul threads?

[fossil ledge]

Hmm, no she just talks about spells and such

[mint furnace]

Well there’s regular spiders in the game

[sudden pivot]

no because the normal spider silk in Hallownest isnt magic, they used it to make paper

[fossil ledge]

I'm certain this was stated somewhere, though. Was it silksong?

[mint furnace]

I’d assume they just do… normal spider stuff

[wicked fossil]

Ngl, I kinda hope we might see this City of Steel at some point

[viscid ridge]

It seems to me having the ability to have soul in silk form could allow for greater range of magic, raw soul magic only seemed to create projectiles, while silk spells could be used to create a bunch of stuff that we see in game

[wicked fossil]

and maybe the Steel Assassins in a DLC

[mint furnace]

It’s almost guaranteed

[sudden pivot]

its repeatedly stated in Silksong but I dont think ever in the first game, could be wrong

[trim lark]

i mean it is sentient bug world i dont think we can assume that

[kindred verge]

there does seem to be a difference between silk and Silk if you get me

[mint furnace]

The steel assassin guy is a backer character

[fossil ledge]

Where is this from?

[kindred verge]

Seamstress

[fossil ledge]

Oh, right

[sudden pivot]

Seamtress dialouge after getting drifters cloack

[fossil ledge]

Right, right

[edgy barn]

silk is just cobweb. Silk is the good stuff you made from Soul.

[sudden pivot]

"cloack" lord take me now 😭

[wicked fossil]

I really hope so

[viscid ridge]

From seamstress, also silks description says its Silk infused with the creators soul

[wicked fossil]

From what I heard, they did remove him from the press kit though I just hope it's only a case of saving him for later

[fossil ledge]

Thank you

[sudden pivot]

he'll be in the City of Steel DLC fr fr trust guys 🙏

[mint furnace]

The other probably guaranteed dlc would be a godhome esc dlc, I’m curious how that will be implemented

[trim lark]

theres also the very minor chance that the backer themself withdrew sharpe and co
which i hope didnt happen

[wicked fossil]

The only thing I can think of is maybe someone peering into Hornet's memories of all the foes she's faced

[mint furnace]

Godhomes move in, but I’d have to imagine they do something different

[sudden pivot]

isnt there only one Godseeker? and she's already posted up in Hallownest

[mint furnace]

Problem is that wouldn’t really give us redux fights

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I hope that isn't it

[trim lark]

my current guess is that we'll be able to go into our own memories ||and will be how we're able to fight vespa ||

[mint furnace]

I don’t think it’s confirmed either way

[fossil ledge]

This is true, but for some reason I did. I guess cause Hornet's gossamer storm ability also glows and such? Perhaps it was a bit of jump in logic

[viscid ridge]

Yeah from what i have seen in the games files, it seems godseeker is almost guaranteed, but i really hope tc reconsiders and comes uo with a more creative solution than just godhome again

[wicked fossil]

Yeah fair, though maybe they could change up the memories?

Flimsy but that's the only thing I can think of

[mint furnace]

Maybe, I just really want an actually hard gms fight

[wicked fossil]

I am betting on the Godhome equivalent involving memories though

[edgy barn]

Whatever they do with godhome, I just hope the new final boss isn't Lace 4

[mint furnace]

Hornet trips out on acid, makes the memories really different

[trim lark]

imagine having to fight LL while gms is constantly throwing needles and rocks at you

[fossil ledge]

Good night! You're quite welcome, and likewise! I enjoyed myself a lot

[wicked fossil]

Heheh

[viscid ridge]

Like i would rather have something to do with the vault be our gateway to a bossrush

[sudden pivot]

totally fair!!! :3 I will say the average player probably didnt really think about the damage thing that hard and just assumed Hornet was a regular spider so I dunno if my understanding that most people immediately knew she was a Weaver is exactly right either ^^;

[mint furnace]

Or, even better, you free lace then fight void gms with her

[fossil ledge]

Good points

[sudden pivot]

I wish so badly GMS had more variety in her attacks, she really had two attacks but you could call it five if you're REALLY generous, anyways last comment sorry I am meant to be going to bed this is just all so interesting to talk about X3

*three and six

[mint furnace]

Other cool idea I heard for a redux fight is a pre bile watered groal fight with all the stilkin

[sudden pivot]

forgot about the three damage one

[fossil ledge]

I for one assumed Hornet was special because she was a child of a pale being, not because she was a Weaver

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I saw someone make a joke post about Cleanwater

[mint furnace]

I also dislike how she just doesn’t do any thing for so long

[trim lark]

clearwater

[wicked fossil]

and seeing Bilewater pre-pollution would be quite nice

[wicked fossil]

Oh right

[fossil ledge]

With so much emphasis on Herrah not being special like the late king, I assumed she was an "ordinary" member of the Spider Tribe, not a Weaver

[mint furnace]

GMS just sits there and eats pure nail hits for minutes

With wanders flintslate flea you can get through phase one with like 2 attack being thrown

[fossil ledge]

If I had to guess, they made that fight a bit easier so that the Cursed ending is achieveable for people

[viscid ridge]

Grandmothe silks attacks should have gone diagonally like First sinner

[mint furnace]

Ngl I still think it changes barely anything

[fossil ledge]

Otherwise it would be like attempting to get the final boss in something between Ascended and Radiant difficulty for an ending

[sudden pivot]

kinda same I actually thought she must have been the result of a lot of interbreeding between Weavers and Deephunters until I was shown the "Weaver in half part" thing

[fossil ledge]

Though that didn't stop them in Godhome... xD

[mint furnace]

I did get a lot of stuff before fighting her, however I still first tried the fight both times

I get the idea but I feel like it diminishes the gods even more

[viscid ridge]

My theory still stands that weavers were created from a variety of bugs, which is why we get so much diversity between weavers

[fossil ledge]

Dang, took me 6 times to defeat the first time, though I did get Cursed hitless on my first win on my 6th try xD

[mint furnace]

I hate to say it, but GMS needs minion summons lmao

[edgy barn]

No

[mint furnace]

She just takes too much damage from you

[sudden pivot]

at least you can see it as her being super weakened due to only just waking up

[edgy barn]

Just made her strong on her own

[viscid ridge]

I fucking hate gank, so many great bosses in Silksong was ruined by gank

[mint furnace]

I love gank

High Halls arena was cinema

[sudden pivot]

what is the phrase gank from? I've always just said "adds"

[mint furnace]

And I will die on that hill

[mint furnace]

I believe it originated from For Honor?

[trim lark]

i like the high halls gauntlet but i can definitely see why it could suck

[mint furnace]

Where ganking is 2v1ing someone

[sudden pivot]

interesting

[fossil ledge]

Just make her hit more frequently and add a new attack or two and you're good I think

[wicked fossil]

Thinking about it, I think Enraged Counchfly does minions well

[viscid ridge]

Everyone is entitled to their wrong opinions 🤣 jkjk

[wicked fossil]

Though that's mostly cause the adds are just obstacles to avoid than extra enemies to fight along with the boss

[sudden pivot]

I think she really needed more stage-wide pressure, think Radiance's swords and buzzsaws

[trim lark]

on the topic of high halls

why does ballador have a small militia stationed outside his fucking bedroom 💔

[mint furnace]

Tbh I think it’s the most overheated thing in the game because people forget they’re playing a Metroidvania

You can… leave the area, and go get upgrades

Anytime I see someone complain about HH I see them with nail 1 and like 1-2 extra masks

[wicked fossil]

Yeah I was able to beat it with 2 needle upgrades and thread storm

[fossil ledge]

Those were my thoughts too. When I heard Herrah was full weaver in SS I couldn't believe it lol. She's so different from all others

[mint furnace]

The strongest tool combo is also directly above the arena

[wicked fossil]

Though I didn't have a lot of red tools, also this was on a 2nd playthrough

[viscid ridge]

My only gripe with the high halls gauntlet is the last phase, those 2 bellringers attacks sometimes overlap in the most inconvenient ways

[sudden pivot]

I think people over state how big of a deal double damage is, sure its a bit overused especially where environmental hazards are concerned, but healing in Silksong is way easier than it ever was in Hollow Knight which balances it

[fossil ledge]

I don't disagree, but you already have this with the scissors, rocks, silk and spikes. The issue is the lack of pressure from her, in that her attacks have too much space between

[spare pendant]

it's interesting that even with the most lenient interpretations for higher beings, pharloom only has two native ones at a time

hallownest has like 4-5

[fossil ledge]

I had the same thought

Though what would you consider the second higher being?

[modest coyote]

i really hope we get a buffed GMS

[mint furnace]

She kinda has 3 zoning attacks and then doesn’t do anything with it

[trim lark]

pharloom does have a lot of powerful tribe/group leaders but yeah not higher being level

[wicked fossil]

I imagine they're also referring to Lace

[mortal birch]

We will. The reason GMS Is easy is to allow for the existence of a cursed challenge i don't know why. the cursed ending is lame

[cedar owl]

my guess is the they're talking about Nyleth? who might potentially be one but she's never stated to be

[fossil ledge]

I'm not sure I fully agree. Enemies have so many different ways to punish you in SS compared to HK, which added with the double damage more than compensates I think

[wicked fossil]

Daughter of a Pale Being and all

[terse warren]

I'm pretty sure Nyleth isn't a higher being but is more similar to whatever Isma has going on. They even look similar

[sudden pivot]

thats sorta what I meant, though I suppose the long-lasting nature of the moves is what I should have specified rather than the area they take up, basically moves that continue putting pressure on you even while she's inbetween attack animations, the floor spikes during phase 3 are an example of this and also the best part of the fight, I just wish they couldn't be deswpaned by hitting them twice

[fossil ledge]

Not to mention the silk commitment that healing is

[modest coyote]

im tellling u we will get godhome ending with buffed gms and "SHAW"

[spare pendant]

Nyleth is clearly one, Greyroot becomes or births one in the cursed ending, Hornet can become one, and there are some creatures who could be but have nothing strongly suggesting it

[modest coyote]

theyre saving their shaw ong

[mortal birch]

This fight also sucks

[mint furnace]

The environmental doing 2 was pretty meh but I think people don’t realize enemies need to do 2 damage

[modest coyote]

nyleth is cool

[trim lark]

i mean nyleth is the source if all plantlife in pharloom right

[mint furnace]

You have a mid air extremely fast triple heal

[spare pendant]

Just shellwood

[mortal birch]

Bottom 3 fight

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but you also have to consider how much you have to consider how much you have to hit enemies. When you remember that the original amount for one heal used to be 6, it makes a lot more sense. We even would have gotten our spool trippled instead of doubled. I personally think 6 hits for 1 heal feels more fair, but im not gonna complain cause ive gottan pretty good

[edgy barn]

Nyleth is explicitly not a a higher being. None of the heartbosss are

[mortal birch]

Raging Conchfly 2

[sudden pivot]

I cant really think of many ways SIlksong enemies have to punish you HK enemies dont tbh, and being able to heal midair makes it way safer than in the first game since you can just fuck off into a corner

[mint furnace]

One of the best tools in the game makes you able to just heal whenever the hell you want

[mortal birch]

Bottom 3

[spare pendant]

Not true at all

[edgy barn]

Yes true at all

[fossil ledge]

Makes sense. I think by making her attack with greater frequency and adding in one or two new moves the fight would be epic, rivalling that of AbsRAd

[trim lark]

ic
but yeah still pretty huge for just 1 lad

[modest coyote]

nyleth is a higher being

[cedar owl]

she's defitinely above isma's tier

[spare pendant]

Nothing about the heart quest mentions anything about higher beings

[sudden pivot]

I dont see how one can consider 6 hits for one mask easier than 8 hits for three, the later seems much much easier to me

[mortal birch]

MY HC is that there is some sort of higher being for all the other sentient life forms in pharloom. An ant higher being, a coral higher being

[fossil ledge]

SS enemies can almost always reach you wherever you are. Their AI and tracking is also much better

[mortal birch]

we just don't meet them beacuse they aren't dicks

[terse warren]

Isma only turned into a grove when she died, while Nyleth was alive for it. Also Isma's Grove is way more recent than Shellwood, so those two things can explain their difference in size

[spare pendant]

Ants are probably more like the hive

[mint furnace]

I can see the HKverse having the equivalent of Greek gods

[viscid ridge]

You misunderstand, before hornet had to hit 9 times for 3 masks, it used to be 6 hits for 3 masks, which i think makes more sense then what we have now

[sudden pivot]

I have not experienced that at all, I would take literally any flying enemy in the entirety of Silksong before having to deal with a Primal Aspid

[terse warren]

Bugs can just be sentient by themselves, see Mantises

[mortal birch]

Not buying into this woke crap /j

[trim lark]

maybe somewhere down the line we'll find a super duper higher being that created life

[terse warren]

But it's literally true 😭

[fossil ledge]

You were actually able to hide from enemies in SS? Cause I noticed it's much harder with most having either wings, projectiles, or being able to dig, or a combination of these

[spare pendant]

Wyrms can afford sapience to bugs but a lot of bugs are already sapient

[mint furnace]

That’s zote the mighty

Zote is a god whose descended to see his creations

[terse warren]

Never cook again

[green yoke]

So does the "Pale" in Pale Nails come from GMS or from Hornet's own use of the thing

[trim lark]

probably from gms
shes referred to as pale monsrch several times

[mint furnace]

It’s GMSes nails

[fossil ledge]

Primal Aspids suck cause they fire three projectiles in the trajectory of the Knight's dash, so odds are if you dash when you see the projectiles you're likely to get hit

[viscid ridge]

It didn't happen rapidly, its probably due to evolution that some bugs gain sentience

[terse warren]

Both Hornet and GMS are pale I don't think it really matters

[spare pendant]

It's GMS, although Hornet is described as "pale beast" and counted among pale beings, so she's clearly a (lesser) pale being as well

[fossil ledge]

It's more the design of the attack than the AI of the enemy

[mortal birch]

wait what. it's a wyrm thing? then how did gms make the weavers

[sudden pivot]

ahhh thank you for clarifying :3 but again you heal those three masks at once so its actually faster when you factor that in, I can apprciate the fact its subjective but I personally find Binding a WAY more powerful tool for healing than I ever did Focus

[green yoke]

I just see people talking about GMS not being a Pale being

[terse warren]

... Which is false

[spare pendant]

Wyrms have the ability but it's not exclusive to them, some other higher beings like Radiance and GMS can do it too

[wicked fossil]

I'm guessing Higher Beings like Pale King and GMS grant intelligence to simple-minded bugs

[cedar owl]

it's not just a wyrm thing

[mortal birch]

ok bet

[viscid ridge]

I also think its great, but i think the cost of binding is a bit overtuned

[mint furnace]

Pale being is still a dubious term but I’d argue GMS is one

[sudden pivot]

we see GMS did it at least to the Pharlids for certain

also im fucking stupid I just realized thats where the name Pharloom comes from

[terse warren]

The beacon is specified to be a Wyrm thing

[spare pendant]

Radiance did it for the moth tribe

[mint furnace]

Ngl I think the band injector needs a nerf

[spare pendant]

other way around

[viscid ridge]

Mask maker confirms that GMS is a Pale being

[mortal birch]

Not all of them though imagine being stuck as a pharlid while your buddy goes to work for a god

[mint furnace]

That item is crazy with what you can get away with

[mortal birch]

that would suck

[terse warren]

She , literally gets called one

[spare pendant]

pharloom is probably far + loom

[wicked fossil]

Makes me wonder if the husk bugs we see in Hallownest were also like the Pharlids

[sudden pivot]

really? but dont the creatures pre-date the kingdom?

[viscid ridge]

Yeah thats the point 🤣

[edgy barn]

I mean she is referred to as "pale (adjective)" many times in the story.

[fossil ledge]

Hornet agreed, Greyroot I could see happening seeing as it ate two pale beings, Nyleth I'm not sure about tbh

[mint furnace]

I mean yeah, but you click the button even if you’re being attacked and it goes off

[cedar owl]

yeah idk how this is even up for debate lmao

[wicked fossil]

Yeah plus Pale doesn't apply to Radiance due to orange/yellow being her most associated color

[spare pendant]

Oh we can't say for sure about in-universe naming

[mortal birch]

alr let's wrap it

[wicked fossil]

Whereas GMS is more of the cold kind of white that is associated with other Pale Beings

If that makes any sense

Though that's just how I'm viewing it at least

[mint furnace]

I still like to believe radiance ripped off lifeblood with the lore we got in ss

[mortal birch]

White defender is a pale being /j

[mint furnace]

the great 5 probably were given pale power by the king

[viscid ridge]

I probably think that type of infectious mind control is something a lot of other higher beings can do

[mint furnace]

They are suspiciously pale

[fossil ledge]

SS has a high risk for healing but greater reward, while in HK it's safer but less rewarding. SS provides you with more movement options and tools while HK allows you to freely make use of spells and charms

[mint furnace]

It’s just so suspiciously close

[wicked fossil]

It is weird to think Lifeblood could be as dangerous as the infection but the only reason it isn't is that it's not being perpetuated by one being

[viscid ridge]

But we only see a sample size of 2, but I'll pit my bets theres other gods out there who can do it

[wicked fossil]

The wormways are infected with Lifeblood cause those scientists kept injecting it into the local widlife

[edgy barn]

Maybe it's the other way around and they were chosen for their whiteness

[terse warren]

We only see Rad do it

Haunting isn't infectious

[viscid ridge]

I mean hornet says its very similar to the infection

[mortal birch]

Radience if they were blue

[spare pendant]

Nyleth is probably one, because:

• She created life (Shellwood)
• She was revered and worshipped
• She was respected by the Citadel
  All of which are heavily analogous to Unn and are traits not really found in mortals, even Isma really

[wicked fossil]

Heheh

[cedar owl]

walking into this channel only to find out that I, a white person, am a pale being

[spare pendant]

It was outlawed as blasphemy for that reason

[viscid ridge]

I wasn't talking about the hainting, i was talking about Lifeblood and the infection. Thats the sample size of 2

[terse warren]

Isma literally makes Isma's Grove and looks quite a lot like Nyleth

[wicked fossil]

True, weird to think we now understand the Pale King's reasoning for lifeblood being outlawed

[mint furnace]

Life and infection both:

• create a hive mind
• are made of liquidy bulbs
• seem to infect the air
• have a small little mindless drone who is just a bulb to spread it
• any creature affected by it is given augmented bodies and power

[terse warren]

Out of about 8 HBs

[heavy falcon]

I wonder what happens if you mix these flavors

[wicked fossil]

The distinction is that Lifeblood doesn't seem to have one being driving the actions of it's infected hosts

[fossil ledge]

These are fair points, but we unfortunately don't know much more than this

[terse warren]

Wasn't outlawed, just "a bit taboo"

[mint furnace]

Do not do uppers and downers at the same time

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, but as i said theres probably other higher beings out there in the world that can also do it

[wicked fossil]

Fair, plus Joni was regarded as a heretic

[spare pendant]

Isma's Grove is a small-scale bit of foliage sprouting in an already plant-nurturing environment, and I really don't see the similarity y'all keep mentioning

[terse warren]

That's just assumption tho

[sudden pivot]

yeah like I think you can genuinely argue which game is harder..... or you could if Ddark and Shade Cloak didn't exist X3 I generally found the exploration MUCH harder in Silksong (with the exception of a few areas, Bilewater >>> Fog Canyon any day of the week) but I actually found the bosses quite a bit easier personally

[viscid ridge]

From new dialogue we get from hornet, it sounds like there was a movement to completely get rid of lifeblood

[terse warren]

Plant nurturing environment??? Do you see vegetation anywhere else in the Waterways. And again, Isma's Grove is recent, compared to Shellwood. Also faces look similar

[terse warren]

She says the substance was "once allowed to thrive" not that they got fully rid of it, they just got it under control

[cedar owl]

oh thank god murder is only outlawed and not tabboo. I was afraid my friends were gonna judge me for it

[viscid ridge]

Izma and Nyleth seem to have the same head shape if thats something. But i think there is some differences between them, but they seem to both be Seed bugs, like their whole purpose is to start up a ecosystem

[mortal birch]

Lifeblood and silk are both great for you

[fossil ledge]

Fair, though the same could be said for tools (especially poisoned) in SS lmao. I also agree that exploration was harder in SS, as the double damage from enemies and hazards plus the tanky, evasive and aggressive enemies made it all around challenging at times

[sudden pivot]

though this game does have silk line, not AS bad as shade clock but it does trivialize most encounters once you learn to use it properly

[mortal birch]

what was GMS end game with collecting silk and people who make it? did she just like it?

[viscid ridge]

Same difference

[sudden pivot]

great point about the tools lol

[terse warren]

No??

Making a species go extinct and controlling its population to non-excessive numbers is not the same

[sudden pivot]

though at least those have a cost so you have to be smart about how you use them during boss attempts

[fossil ledge]

Bosses to me felt about the same. Some were more difficult than others, same as HK. Not counting Godhome I'd argue HK bosses are easier for the most part, though

Especially early game

[mortal birch]

Disagree

[viscid ridge]

Your being excessively pedantic

[mortal birch]

I find HK bosses harder simply for the heal economy

[ancient dock]

I would say the final boss in SS harder than the one in Hollow knight

[mortal birch]

in hk you have small heal windows and only heal one or two masks

the windows are still hard in SS but you heal much more sometimes twice

[fossil ledge]

This is true, you can't rely exclusively on them to carry you through boss fights. Still need to put in the effort to learn the attacks and get a good attempt going

[viscid ridge]

The bosses felt the same in silksong, but i really like that they were more complex than in hollow knight

[mortal birch]

Absrad or rad

Absrad is harder than LL imo

[fossil ledge]

AbsRad is Godhome exclusive

[ancient dock]

Just normal rad

[terse warren]

"The definition of the words I myself am using doesn't fit my theory, so you should stop actually looking into it so that I can be right" is what you're saying

[edgy barn]

I see Lost Lace in the same tier as Nightmare King Grimm and Pure Vessel

[spare pendant]

It's at most like the roots; they may be similar in some ways, but are clearly varied respective to the kinds of areas they produce. Nyleth actively created Shellwood whereas Isma seems to have died to foster it.

[mortal birch]

still a final boss

[fossil ledge]

Agreed, I loved the complexity

[ancient dock]

I don’t consider Abs the ff of base HK

[fossil ledge]

Sure, but I was comparing the base games of both considering SS doesn't have any content updates or DLCs yet

[terse warren]

Actively hiding Nyleth's face is crazy work

[ancient dock]

She easier than them imo

[mortal birch]

then yes i agree LL is def harder than RAD

i'm scared for what's harder than LL

[viscid ridge]

My theory and your theory is literally the same idk what your arguing about 😅

[sudden pivot]

I generally found the bosses easier the whole way through, like I find Gruzz mother way harder than Moss Mother, for me id say I found Lost Lace about as difficult as NKG but that's wasn't really for the patterns so much as it was for how long the fight is and how easy it is to get nervous at the end and choke ^^; is just my personal opinion though, there's definitely examples of bosses being relative stronger than their first game counterparts, I would say there are quite a lot of stronger late game bosses in Silksong in my opinion since bosses that can be encountered late game in Hollow Knight 1 are usually tuned down in case the player encounters them mid game due to it not having an act system

[mortal birch]

i was expecting to STRUGGLE with LL but like 3 hours

[fossil ledge]

Dunno about that one. I will say, you do get to practice the fight since you fight Lace 2 before and tons of voided enemies

[ancient dock]

She around Sly level in terms of difficulty

[fossil ledge]

Dang, well then. Fair enough

[cedar owl]

oh the acronyms are starting. someone hold me

[edgy barn]

GMS, LL, LG

[ancient dock]

Not hard but still a skill issue

[viscid ridge]

Something i feel about GMS, is that she had a way better theme than Radiance. Like the Radiance theme is iconic, but i never felt it fit the mood

[edgy barn]

CL, GTG, MM

[cedar owl]

https://tenor.com/view/dillom-rage-dog-angry-dog-gif-17954176246139200797

[ancient dock]

pure vessel zote and Grimm where still harder than lace

[terse warren]

No? You're saying that lifeblood was outlawed I'm saying it wasn't

[mortal birch]

THK

[fossil ledge]

I really liked both, but agreed, Radiance's theme could've been a bit grander, more climatic

[spare pendant]

Those are their resting sprites, their standing sprites are even less similar

[mortal birch]

TPK TPV TK LL L1 L2 MM

[heavy falcon]

Nyleth looks like a chicken with a bloated throat

[terse warren]

If you compare the isma from grove's face to Nyleth's face you can see the shape is similar

[cedar owl]

even if they did have similar-looking faces it wouldn't be evidence for anything

[spare pendant]

If the one visual similarity is their mask, and so superficially too, it means very little

[viscid ridge]

Literally never said that

[terse warren]

They both make forests they are physically linked to, they look similar

[terse warren]

"There was a movement to completely get rid of it"

[ancient dock]

I would even say loss lace difficulty is the same as Hornet 2

[fossil ledge]

Interesting, I found the bosses in SilkSong to be generally more complex and demanding of the player, all around more difficult. That said, my HK experience did mean I didn't really have to fight a boss more than 5 times to beat it with a few exceptions (Lost Lace, Karmelita, Beastfly, Signis brothers)

[terse warren]

| |I || |_ Lace

[viscid ridge]

Yeah seems like there are a ton of nyleth type creatures out there, cause her dialogue says something like, without us is there life?

[sudden pivot]

nah, I think Hornet 2 is harder than Lace 2 but a good bit easier than Lost Lace imo

[wicked fossil]

Hey wanted to ask, are the Stillkin haunted or not really?

Cause they rebel against the Citadel and all

[fossil ledge]

So this is speaking comparatively. I don't know how my experinece would've been different had I played SilkSong with no prior HK experience. Perhaps I would've had an easier time compared to my first HK playthrough?

[sudden pivot]

no not especially

[maiden meteor]

People think Hornet 2 is hard?

[terse warren]

Ehhh that's more debatable, lotta people in this game love saying "Us" instead of "Me"

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, cause it seemed to flourish in the caverns before they got rid of most of it.

[wicked fossil]

I see, I was going through Bilewater to see if any of them would have void abilities like other enemies

[ancient dock]

I don’t personally but a lot people do

[wicked fossil]

and I didn't see any of them turn, as far as I saw

[spare pendant]

1. They have two similarities total, and neither one is even close enough to be direct (Isma died first, Nyleth didn't)

• Higher beings are individuals, not types of creature; Fayforn is not a higher being despite appearing like a moth, Shrumals are not higher beings despite appearing like Herald, Hornet is not a higher being despite having HB ancestry

[sudden pivot]

that's an interesting thought, perhaps, I should let you know so you know my perspective that we are around the same level of skill in the first game as we have both done Radiant HoG

[glossy badger]

I didn't

[terse warren]

Most ≠ completely

[fossil ledge]

2nd Hornet fight in HK you mean? Yeah, it's a difficult fight for many

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but we do know Zotes sword is made of shellwood, so he must have gottan it from somewhere

[sudden pivot]

massive filter who new players who haven't figured out how to make effective use of their spells

[wicked fossil]

I imagine areas like Shellwood are probably common in the world of HK

[spare pendant]

A pretty notable difference is that Isma is literally rooted into the wall and Nyleth is incredibly mobile

[wicked fossil]

To have trees where you can collect shellwood from

[cedar owl]

brother, do you have functioning eyes????

[terse warren]

No one argued that Higher Beings aren't individuals? It still doesn't mean Nyleth is a higher being since we see someone who we know isn't one do something similar

[viscid ridge]

I literally accidentally said completely one time and your still harping on it cause your being annoyingly pedantic

[maiden meteor]

I honestly consider her like Lost Kin tier which is p low

[terse warren]

1. I'm a woman
2. I was talking about the face
3. Did you really just scroll all the way back just to reply to that

[viscid ridge]

Yeah thats the theory, cause it seems shellwood makes up most of the plantlife in the world

[sudden pivot]

also just fyi I'm sure you remember and it was just a simple mistake but by the way they're the "Forebrothers" one of them just happens to be named Signis :3

[fossil ledge]

Oh wow, that's quite the coincidence! Congrats on that btw, having done it myself too I know it's quite the ordeal xD

Curious how we have similar skill yet different experiences with SS

[spare pendant]

Even by your logic, that would still mean (excluding Nyleth) 4/5 of the other creatures to do this are HBs, and of the ones that are, none of them had to die to do it.

[sudden pivot]

and you as well!!! :D I'm going for RP5 eventually wish me luck 🙏

[terse warren]

Thenjust say that you didnt mean completely rather than spend so long trying to be right???

[wicked fossil]

Mhm plus Moss Grotto exists and it takes on a different aesthetic than Greenpath in Hallownest

[fossil ledge]

Yes, I only remembered one of their names xD

[viscid ridge]

I did

[sudden pivot]

Signis and Gron!! ^^

[wicked fossil]

Or rather the moss is different than that of Greenpath and wasn't spawned by a higher being as far as we know

[fossil ledge]

Doing them early was tough

[cedar owl]

3. yes
4. the faces are differnt
5. I'm an endocrinologist and I say you're a man now

[fossil ledge]

Later on they become pushovers, same as Beastfly, but tackling them ASAP was an experience for sure lol

[sudden pivot]

I actually first tried them during act 1 on my second playthrough I was really proud X3

[cedar owl]

why did discord change the numbers? 😭

[spare pendant]

Moss needs very little sunlight so it's probably common foliage in the hollowverse probably

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but moss grotto seems to not have been made by n higher being, it just sprang up naturally as a result of the crust kingdoms water runoff

[spare pendant]

hey so what the actual fuck

[wicked fossil]

Oh true

[fossil ledge]

Same here! After the experience that was my first blind playthrough I was quite excited too xD

[ancient dock]

I feel like Lost Lace will be the Skill filter for the DLC later on

[wicked fossil]

Ohh I see

[terse warren]

5. It's actually pretty rude to say that so maybe don't

[cedar owl]

yes, I have transed them

[fossil ledge]

I got all but two or three bosses first try on my second playthrough, which restored my faith in my skill lol

[wicked fossil]

Also wanted to ask, are the Craws haunted or not all of them, given the Court of Craws?

[maiden meteor]

Lost Lace is p cool

[fossil ledge]

I even got regular and cursed GMS hitless!

[wicked fossil]

I know there are void Craws but the court Craws don't turn void as far as I know

[viscid ridge]

I love lace 1 and 2. Lost lace is just a bit overdesigned

[maiden meteor]

built different

[sudden pivot]

I got my ass handed to me by them a few times during the early game or my first playthrough though 😭 unfortunately they're super vulnerable to tool spam and the lava walls makes killing their adds way to easy, I feel like a larger health pool and maybe giving them each one extra move would have made them scale into the later game way better

[spare pendant]

lots are, some aren't

[maiden meteor]

Maybe Garmond should’ve picked lawyer job…

[terse warren]

I am already trans, so again, maybe don't say that again

[wicked fossil]

Makes sense, I imagine the Court consists of the Craws that weren't haunted and blamed Hornet

[ancient dock]

Imo she not bad but they have to tame the void attacks imo

[fossil ledge]

Oh wow, that's quite the challenge! I've also been considering it but will probably do AB first to get a feel for a more challenging boss rush. Feel free to keep me posted on your progress!

[ancient dock]

Or at least change the arena

[spare pendant]

Bell Eater is really fascinating to me because that's the only example we have of a creature that big and notorious who isn't a HB

[viscid ridge]

Like she could be 10/10, but shes stuck at 8

[spare pendant]

Bardoon was big, but not as much and he wasn't legendary like bell eater

[sudden pivot]

thank you so much id love to hear your progress on AB as well!!! :D im not going to lie the scariest boss in RP5 by far is Markoth ;-;

[mint furnace]

Presumably was specifically bred

[viscid ridge]

Craws confuse me so much, cause i dont know how sentient they are. Criege treats them like pests, but we know they are smart enough to have a civilization

[ancient dock]

Lost Lace is a 8.5 to me

[fossil ledge]

I have a feeling that was a universal experience for anyone attempting them ASAP lol. Yeah, pushing enemies into the lava trivializes the adds and with only two moves each they're very vulnerable to tool spam

[wicked fossil]

I mostly thought he was just referring to the younger ones

Since they just hang out at Halfway Home's roof

[spare pendant]

Crawbugs seem to be pretty varied, possibly by age and rank

I think the smaller ones are just kids

[glossy badger]

So we are killing babies

[fossil ledge]

Yeah, I can imagine. I only managed to take him down for HoG by practicing him so much I was able to get close consistently

[wicked fossil]

I mean we kinda have been doing that since HK, lest we forget the Little Weavers

[ember river]

To be fair, even to a civilized society a giant statue made from cut hide would be pretty scary

[glossy badger]

Hornet just like her dad

[fossil ledge]

Definitely a rival for AbsRad for hardest boss in the game

[glossy badger]

True

[spare pendant]

I saw a headcanon that crawbugs are actually wearing crow costumes to appear intimidating, implying crows and other animals exist in hollow knight

[ember river]

Imagine if some dude made a giant scarecrow with human skin and hair to scare others off

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but still, they cant be that stupid 😅🤣

[wicked fossil]

Yeah the Craw Jurors have more metallic looking beaks if I'm not mistaken

[ember river]

That's not new to silksong, nor limited to craws

In the slab you kill children and newborns

[sudden pivot]

in terms of just the boss itself I don't think so but in terms of trying to Radiant I definitely think it's in the top 2 with Absrad ;-;

[spare pendant]

hollow knight protagonists do not operate on the philosophy that killing is wrong

[fossil ledge]

Interesting, which are more difficult in your opinion?

[glossy badger]

And then write down horrible things about them

[cedar owl]

whenever TC wants to add an animal to hollow knight they buggify it
like grimm is obviously meant to be some kind of bat, but they made his belly crusty

[sudden pivot]

in Bilewater you kill completely innocent freedom fighters entirely for your own gain

[spare pendant]

yeah ofc

[wicked fossil]

Tbf, they did kill the guy who wanted to work with them

[fossil ledge]

Also they attack on sight

[wicked fossil]

and harvested his soul abilities from what it seems

Ala Groal using Vengeful Spirit plus the Snail Shaman being chained or hooked up from what I recall

[sudden pivot]

did the Snail Shaman want to work with them? I didn't recall that tidbit, definitely a dick move if so but even then that's on Groal not the Stilkin as a whole

[wicked fossil]

I'll check the Caretaker dialogue

[fossil ledge]

Caretaker mentions it being against his will

[ember river]

They weren't innocent, they were savages who murdered an actually innocent guy who wanted to work with them

[spare pendant]

the stiltkin work with groal

[fossil ledge]

The way he was harvested also reminded me of the Soul Sanctum snail

[spare pendant]

that is why he's called seeker

[wicked fossil]

I feel like Groal himself is meant to be a parallel or this game's equivalent of Soul Master

Plus I think that Snail Shaman had soul containers near them

[sudden pivot]

where is it said they were savages? and I mean they immediately attack anyone who comes to their territory from the Citadel and given they proceeded to take the corpse back and harvest it they probably killed the Snail Shaman before hearing him out and knowing why he was there

[fossil ledge]

Agreed

[wicked fossil]

We do see Pilgrims in bags in the hidden bench room in Bilewater

[fossil ledge]

Though I much preferred the Soul Master fight

[wicked fossil]

Which implies they also attack Pilgrims

[fossil ledge]

One of the best in the game tbh

[modest coyote]

groal is a cooler design

[ember river]

Well they ate a snail who wanted to help and did also attack hornet without hesitation or just cause.
Craws are much more civilized and justified

[fossil ledge]

I'll give him that, yes

[sudden pivot]

I mean he's definitely a reference to Soul Master but beyond their usage of Soul I don't really see any parallels between them?

[modest coyote]

counterpoint: if u got sewage dumped on u u would be mad as hell too

[spare pendant]

whiteward is the actual soul sanctum analogue

[modest coyote]

u dont get it the stilkin fucking wanna kill u

[wicked fossil]

Yeah fair, though I suppose there is the aspect of rebelling against their kingdom's governments but that might be a stretch

[ember river]

Nah, the soulbugs are top tier.
Soul warriors are great

[fossil ledge]

Most definitely

[glossy badger]

Honestly yeah they probably went crazy

[fossil ledge]

The ambiance is amazing

[glossy badger]

Whiteward is cool asf

[sudden pivot]

the craws also attack Hornet just because? until act 3 anyways, I don't see how they're so much better, and I explained in what you're responding to that the likely didn't know the snail wanted to help when killing him since they kill everyone from the Citadel

[modest coyote]

not probably this is confirmed

[modest coyote]

no they dont attack just because they attack u because u caused the fucking apocolypse

[clever monolith]

Is the SS lore based off God home no flower ending??

[ember river]

And I'd be pretty glad to kill the ones who did that if someone offered me help

[sudden pivot]

oh really I didn't know that

[fossil ledge]

That's about it, really

[ember river]

Aren't those Haunted?

[modest coyote]

its also a court session btw; trial by combat

[sudden pivot]

Hornet didn't do that to them but yes I get your point

[modest coyote]

u think hornet got a lawyer?

[spare pendant]

the craws who randomly attack hornet are haunted

[wicked fossil]

I hope we get discussions from Mossbag and others about the non-haunted enemies

[ember river]

The black cloaked ones are the non haunted ones

[mighty jolt]

Pretty sure on top of them dumping sewage it was also the former home of the pinstresses so that's another grudge

[sudden pivot]

they wouldn't be scared off by the Scarecraw if that were the case

[clever monolith]

Is the pin stress part of the "craw" tribe?

[mighty jolt]

Given we see the third pinstress sister dead and in bilewater leaf camo

[sudden pivot]

don't think so but now that you mention it they do look real similar huh

[spare pendant]

bugs seemingly still retain some of their basic instincts

[wicked fossil]

We do know that the Craw Lake has a similar setup with those balloon things to Pinstress' home

[glossy badger]

I wonder how she died. By the citadel or stillkin?

[clever monolith]

Yeah

[fossil ledge]

Good point, but doesn't the haunting only override natural behaviour for a specific purpose, like hunting Hornet? We see plenty of bugs engaging in pre-haunting behaviour

[modest coyote]

its a really fucking scary scarecraw

WE all thought it was a boss fight

[wicked fossil]

Yeah plus unlike the Infection, some haunted bugs still to move on with purpose if that makes sense

[mighty jolt]

My thought is she is stillkin, actually and was killed by the citafel

[sudden pivot]

yeah but if they retain enough of their instincts to run from that they should retain enough to run from the fun-sized Eldritch abomination killing them by the score any time they interact with her

[modest coyote]

stilkin probably

[wicked fossil]

Like those Citadel bugs went to different kingdoms to kidnap Hornet and the Weavers

That seems more capable than the infected

[clever monolith]

The haunting or "puppeteering" of enemies over rights or brings life back to a pre existing alive/dead body last I knew

[mighty jolt]

We know they full on deployed at least one of the Choruses to hunt down the pinstresses

[glossy badger]

That seems very plausible

[clever monolith]

So it doesn't let the being have any thought or say over what they do

[fossil ledge]

Yet we see many engaging in natural behaviour

[sudden pivot]

we know the ones on top are hostile to all because of the Halfway Home guys dialogue

the ones on top of halfway home I mean

[wicked fossil]

We do see the Skarrs attack Hornet when she tries to get the vintage nectar

[clever monolith]

So I doubt they are haunted or a "puppet" due to the fact that we never see any getting thread used on them

[wicked fossil]

Which implies they can still coordinate

[nimble kayak]

Do yall consider Phantom more of an act 1 boss or an act 2 boss?

[clever monolith]

The pilgrims we see are just rouge pilgrims that want money or sum

[mighty jolt]

They have a reason for that. The original purpose of the haunting was to make bugs do their tasks forever to keep grand mother silk asleep; it's only later she hijacked them and turned them hostile

[sudden pivot]

act 1 final boss, same tier as Last Judge if much easier

[wicked fossil]

Act 1 boss since you can go to her instead of Last Judge

[clever monolith]

Act 1

[nimble kayak]

Interesting

[fossil ledge]

I'm pretty sure they refer to the haunting as GMS' actions, no? The puppeteering?

[clever monolith]

Honestly I wanna see team cherry make an interactive lore book for SS on steam or a lore book irl

[fossil ledge]

This is true. Does this mean the Craws were originally hostile to all before as well, or that they are hostile to all now because of the haunting?

[sudden pivot]

Wander's Journal 2 available on Fangamer spring 2026 trust guys

[nimble kayak]

I personally see her as more of an Act 2 boss, the Grand Gate cutscene seems more grandiose from a storytelling perspective, and you get the dialogue with the pilgrims by the door too.

[mighty jolt]

"I love both my daughters equally; my beloved Lace of my glorious golden halls, and also that other one in the poop chutes" -Grand Mother Silk

[wicked fossil]

It would be nice if they continued doing comics like with the Quirrel comic

[clever monolith]

Yes the haunting /puppeteering is GMS trying to stop you or sumthin like that

[kindred verge]

Phantom is just a goth music fan, they want to be down there /lh

[spare pendant]

Nope, because they're still forced to do what grandma silk wants (like capturing weaverborn)

[clever monolith]

Imo GMS wants Hornet stopped cause she know only a pale being /demi pale being can stop her

[spare pendant]

GMS isn't trying to stop anyone, she's trying to

1. Wake herself up
2. Sustain Lace

[fossil ledge]

Does that mean she's the one who initially freed Hornet?

[spare pendant]

Lace seemingly freed Hornet?

It's unclear

[fossil ledge]

She did?

[mighty jolt]

GMS wants Hornet captured because she can turn soul into silk thus providing her unlimited silk and thus unlimited power

[sudden pivot]

I assume the former, I dont think they're ever stated to be especially haunted and they seem territorial

[clever monolith]

I thought she made lace to do her bidding sorta like phantom cause they are both beings made of silk

[fossil ledge]

Cause the gleamflies are implied to be made of pure silk yet imbued with the spirit of the bugs who's silk was used, right?

[spare pendant]

Hornet was freed by a silkmoth who Lace is seen conducting

Idk what they're actually called

[wicked fossil]

Considering it's possible to ||meet Lace at the broken bridge between Shellwood and Blasted Steps if you skipped her boss||

[mighty jolt]

I don't think Lace wanted her mother to wake up. Her mother kinda sucks and Lace knew that.

[fossil ledge]

That's what I thought as well. They seem quite territorial and nothing else is found in their territory beside the rare mite

[spare pendant]

All Silk is imbued with Soul

[wicked fossil]

||I think it implies she did do it since she choose to meet Hornet here||

[fossil ledge]

Well yes, but the soul that would've made the silk that composes the gleamflies would all be GMS', right?

[spare pendant]

Soul doesn't carry intent, that's Essence

[spare pendant]

I think so yeah

But that doesn't make them extend her will

[sudden pivot]

yeah but one can manipulate the soul of others, and if its concentrated into silk then thats basically manipulating soul on easy mode

[kindred verge]

idk I think Soul Sanctum implies that some kind of self-actuated Soul constructs are possible

[fossil ledge]

It does carry some intent, potentially, if the Soul Sanctum scholars' dialogue is accurate

[spare pendant]

I mean in the sense that your Soul doesn't retain your own will/desires

[fossil ledge]

Not necessarily, yes

[mighty jolt]

Also the existence of the Unraveled proves that silk made from people can carry their minds

[sudden pivot]

"Focus" seems to be the purest form of Soul and its use, though we know tragically little about it

[fossil ledge]

Yeah...

[fossil ledge]

Yes, but what is your point?

[kindred verge]

The point I think we've inadvertently come to is that it's unclear what will, if any, led to Hornet's freedom

[sudden pivot]

that it beings GMS's silk doesnt mean others couldn't manipulate the butterflies, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying sorry ^^;

[fossil ledge]

That the flies had the will of the choristors imprinted on them or that GMS took back control of the silk?

[fossil ledge]

Oh agreed

[spare pendant]

Yeah, although it being Lace is a probable explanation

[fossil ledge]

It could've been the choir that created them, the bugs on who the silk was used, or someone like Lace

[clever monolith]

I have a question that has been on my mind abt the act 3 ending

[sudden pivot]

I think being born with the Silk makes it more yours than hers, like she is the primordial source of all Silk but she doesn't have autonomy over all Silk, if that makes sense

[clever monolith]

Woops didn't mean to reply though what is the "lore accurate" hollow knight ending?

[sudden pivot]

I think thats why she cant just haunting the Weavers

[mighty jolt]

Most likely godhome no flower

[fossil ledge]

I'm inclined to agree, it does make sense. What about bugs who had the silk injected into them?

[spare pendant]

Lace: "letting you live was my rebellion"

It's implied she means Silk and Soul, but she didn't exactly let us live, she saved us. That's oddly specific phrasing

[clever monolith]

Thats what I was thinking though wasn't sure

[spare pendant]

They're all canon

[mighty jolt]

It leaves room for dream no more but the shade lord's appearance indicates the former is more likely

[mighty jolt]

Strictly wrong

[spare pendant]

TC stated every ending is canon

[mighty jolt]

Both sealed siblings and hollow knight endings cannot lead to silksong

[spare pendant]

Sure, but that doesn't mean they aren't canon. They're just not canon to Silksong

[clever monolith]

But on the topic of SS what ending goes to SS from hollow knight

[mighty jolt]

Nor can godhome flower

[clever monolith]

They are cannon to other hollow knight timelines

[kindred verge]

why not

[vague raft]

what if we just dont know what happened inbetween

[wicked fossil]

Dream No More or one of the Godmaster endings

[spare pendant]

Also, Hollow Knight ending can lead to Silksong, just not Silksong act 3

[fossil ledge]

This only assuming the effects of the delicate flower aren't simply banishing the void to return to its source

[mighty jolt]

Have you not gotten to act 3?