sk-lore

[slender python]

then how does she appear in silksong

she is being consumed by void

[rancid violet]

but also it is just a real hard stone door, you can break it

We dont have any concrete answers

either an outside force broke the seal and got her out or that ending is no longer in continuity

[slender python]

in hollow knight hornet says go and she cant go because she tells you she is not made of void

but at the radience ending knight turns into shade lord and reveals knight is literally void with a mask

[edgy nebula]

i wonder if the 3 successors ever interacted with eachother

[slender python]

dreamers you mean?

[edgy nebula]

no, the act 3 silksong bosses which give you the hearts

[slender python]

yes

u get the dreamers hearts

[edgy nebula]

they arent dreamers

[slender python]

ohhhhh i was reffering to the seals on the black egg

[edgy nebula]

yeah my bad i meant in silksong

[slender python]

ok

[rancid violet]

Im not there yt in ss

gotta kick the bell eaters ass next time I play

[slender python]

but the dreamers seal the black egg in one of the endings hornet comes out then it means hornet was alive inside of the egg she broke out with her nail

it means the dreamers spirits (i said spirits cus u say their bodys) and as hornet is alive the dreamers are stuck so they know eachother

[rancid violet]

I do not understand what you are trying to say

[slender python]

bobbit said the dreamers didnt know eachother

[rancid violet]

bobbit is talkin about the people you take hearts from in SS

[slender python]

the dreamers didnt meet up the pale king met up with the m sepratly

[rancid violet]

dreamers are different

[slender python]

i meant abt dreamer

[rancid violet]

the dreamers talk to each other in the game, they know each other

[slender python]

the dreamers didnt meet up the pale king met up with the dreamers sepratly met with the pale king and they all went to sleep

SEPRATLY

[rancid violet]

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT

[slender python]

idk

because i was thinking of dreamers?

[rancid violet]

well Im pretty sure lurien and monomon had met previously

[slender python]

oh wrong channel

remember the skelaton in controling the underworks in silksong?

think he controlles the underworks

i gtg

bye

[rancid violet]

wtf is happening

t

yall ever think about how the moths abandoned the sun, the radiance, and chose to go underground with a worm. like they left the biggest lamp to go further into the dark ground

[lean temple]

PK was also a light

I think it might have been because he was a physical being rather than a dream being

[rancid violet]

they're still associated with dreams alot tho

its just one of those odd things

[lean temple]

Yeah, but I think both of them being lights is a key factor

[rancid violet]

I feel like there has to be something else to it, otherwise there would be moths with the grim troupe

[lean temple]

Not really, the Heart glows but it's fire. They're also nightmares which are the opposite of dreams and both were split off from each other

[ember musk]

why has this surgeon gone all the way here?

[cerulean ice]

Hey, gotta ask how long is silksong after hw bc I believe hornet has a insanely long life time if my understanding of the lore is correct

[ember musk]

yeah she should live for a very long time but if im not mistaken i dont think we get actual clues for how long that time was

i was thinking maybe we can work our way back through the red memory with vespa and the various needle upgrades

im assuming the needle upgrades bring the needle back to its old glory bit by bit when it was forged by the hive people

aside from the pale steel needle one which im not sure where to put in that theory

[manic acorn]

so, after finishing the game, I am left with many questions as to what Mother SIlk is, and why she does what she does

compared to Radiance, you don't get much info about her

[cerulean ice]

I see thank you for your thoughts clippy

[ember musk]

always happy to help

[cerulean ice]

🫡

[ember musk]

do you want a full lore rundown with spoilers?

cause theres still act 3

[manic acorn]

yeye I finished it 100%

still confused

[ember musk]

gms evolved the ambushing spiders into weavers, but she did so to have them venerate her and to enslave them kinda if im not wrong

[manic acorn]

like the story is ok, I just dont know the role of mother silk and the relation with weavers

[ember musk]

but then the weavers said fuck that and build the citadel to try to imprison her but it failed, it was yet another failed attempt at usurping gms

[manic acorn]

aah that explains the little cutrscene with the first sinner

[ember musk]

so gms started hunting them down

and so the weavers fled to the edges of the kingdom where her threads dont reach, and then they eventually fled to hallownest

[manic acorn]

if they wanted to imprison her, why make the citadel so pilgrims would do there and venerate it, with the final threshold for the pilgrims giving access to the elevator that brings to the cradle?

[ember musk]

and now gms is in control but shits going south so she captured hornet to get her pale silk stuff or something

[ember musk]

actually i dont know lol im still thinking about this, but the citadel being a construct to imprison gms is 100% confirmed by the mask maker

[manic acorn]

oh really? when does it say that? I thought the mask maker was as useless as the one in the first game

[ember musk]

uh the one in the first game has some of the most important bits of lore lmao

[manic acorn]

really?

[ember musk]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Mask_Maker_(Silksong)#Unmasked-0

check here his dialogues are huge stuff

[manic acorn]

oh i meant the one of the first game

oh wait i see it now

[ember musk]

he too has dialogue hinting that masks are what gives people consciousness or something along the lines of that

either way masks are very important

[visual glacier]

related?

[ember musk]

biologically they look similar and the boney one is found under verdania, perhaps migrated when verdania fell to ruins and they adapted to far fields?

[manic acorn]

@ember musk could it be that the weavers were under the control of gms and made the citadel and all, but overtime were like "fuck it, we ball", and turned against her and fled?

[ember musk]

it wasnt just "fuck it we ball" theres no way

they definitely first tried to usurp her

[manic acorn]

but then I wonder. gms can produce all the silk she wants, why does she need weavers at all?

[ember musk]

maybe slaves? people to venerate her? im not entirely sure, it seems like she wanted daughters

some dialogue relating to lace says "better a child spun pure than them"

[visual glacier]

she wanted worshipers

and duaghters

but she didnt treat them like daughters

[manic acorn]

i dont know, during hornet's encounters with those under gms influence, they say how her property of generating silk is precious, and is kinda why weavers were hunted down maybe?

[feral inlet]

I have a question, there’s a room on the left down before gms with cages and some inscriptions, are those other children of weaver that gms caught like hornet? But only hornet escaped? Cause it says last of line for them

[visual glacier]

oh gms probably wanted to bind hornets silk

weaver+wyrm genes go hard

in fact theres a scrapped ending in the game files like that

[feral inlet]

Like one of the places one of them was caught was called blackburn iirc or something which isn’t a place in hk or silksong

[manic acorn]

oh ye I saw that. Though it is scrapped so i dont think it would be canon lore

[visual glacier]

just supporting evidence

maybe she wanted hornet to serve her tho

[feral inlet]

What about the other cages in the room underneath gms?

[ember musk]

weavers were hunted down by gms because they tried to usurp gms, hornets ability to generate silk is sought after sure but hers is also a pale beings silk, being half wyrm and all

[feral inlet]

She caught others too

[visual glacier]

maybe weavers from hollownest and other kingdoms?

hornet is half pale being so shes super valueable

[feral inlet]

For each of them it said last of line followed by diff names, I assume hornet was last of line of herra probably

[ember musk]

most likely documentations of killed weavers

[visual glacier]

ill check the wiki see what it says

i need to see ts lore tablets

[feral inlet]

Yea, they each were caught like hornet but only hornet escaped from what I can tell

Each one of those cages had a number of troops the specific weaver wiped out as well

[edgy nebula]

one of the weavers was also taken from the city of steel

[visual glacier]

oh shit city of steel with mr mushroom talking about steel too theres def gonna be a steel dlc

[feral inlet]

Yea

What’s a choristor and what’s an envoy?

[ember musk]

well, "escaped" my theory on this is that lace was gealous her mother sought hornet instead of her and so she tried to use the butterflies to free her in hopes that hornet would juts flee, but then she proceeds further so lace tries to strike her down in deep docks and cradle but fails, supported by her dialogue when shes defeated in the cradle "its you she wants is it not?"

[edgy nebula]

choristors are the guys with the pins and masks that do the aerial roll and the silk slash thing, found in the citadel

[visual glacier]

this is an envoy

[edgy nebula]

the envoys are the shorter bell guys with the bell staffs who charge at you and lead other pilgrims

[feral inlet]

Oooh Tyty

Holy these weavers were fighting gauntlets

[visual glacier]

if they pogod they couldve won smh

[feral inlet]

I bet none of the others could smh, they were prob more spider like I’d guess

[ember musk]

to be fair i dont think weavers had any hopes to defeat gms in the first place

[feral inlet]

Is widow a captured one too? Is that why she has pins in her back??

[edgy nebula]

not captured

[feral inlet]

What was widow

[visual glacier]

ts one is weak af

[ember musk]

nah she was just mutilated and enslaved/enthralled by her silk maybe? im not sure

[feral inlet]

Reed?

[edgy nebula]

yeah she was just mutilated by someone

[visual glacier]

flying guys

[feral inlet]

Ahh Tyty

[olive glen]

Oh I thought you got that ending by waiting too long to bind GMS?

[feral inlet]

Pin throwing ones i assume with triple jabs

[edgy nebula]

nothing happens, i tried

[visual glacier]

nope

[olive glen]

Dang

[feral inlet]

Was it phantom? Cause when hornet meets widow she says widows not the one doing that to bellheart or is it gms?

[edgy nebula]

unironically i got the normal ending 3 times in my playthrough, once i got it normally, once i tried not binding, didnt work so i got it normally, and the other i binded instead of used my needolin for the snare setter to see if there was a secret ending, alas

[feral inlet]

Like who was controlling bellheart curse

[edgy nebula]

gms made the silk, widow is controlling it by playing it to string up the bellhart citizens

[visual glacier]

i think there was a lot of silk there alr and widow manipulated it

[edgy nebula]

atleast i think

[feral inlet]

Tyty

[ember musk]

she says its not widows silk, suggesting the mutilation was to render her incapable of producing silk, making her depend on gms's

[feral inlet]

Yea, that makes sense

[edgy nebula]

it makes her incapable of using her own silk yeah

[visual glacier]

i got it zero times in my first playthru

[edgy nebula]

personally i assume the weavers did it to her but im unsure since the pins in her back dont look very weavery

[visual glacier]

i got it on my replay tho

[feral inlet]

Why’s widow named widow tho, who’s her child?

[visual glacier]

black widow

[edgy nebula]

that i do not know

[visual glacier]

type of spider

[feral inlet]

First sinner?

[visual glacier]

she sinned

[edgy nebula]

she was the first sinner

[feral inlet]

Like widows kid would be a spider no?

[visual glacier]

https://tenor.com/view/drake-yachty-censored-not-drake-tech-support-gif-8658410013845332703

[edgy nebula]

im nt wrong....

[visual glacier]

weavers giving birth is very hard for them

[feral inlet]

Ahh

[visual glacier]

according to eva

widow is when your partner dies tho not when youre a mother

[ember musk]

hmm maybe widow was one of the most loyal weavers to gms and didnt support their plans to usurp her or widow turned against the weavers to support gms or she just snitched on the weavers, and so they mightve done that to her, maybe in revenge or prevent the threat of her coming after them in case gms sent her

[edgy nebula]

yeah thats my personal theory, there isnt much to back it up though since we dont have much info on who did it to her or why

[feral inlet]

Oh mbmb, ty

[edgy nebula]

widow is very loyal to gms ingame so that is something for it

[feral inlet]

Widows husband killed by gms?

[visual glacier]

i think it mightve been the other weavers in that case

[visual glacier]

doubt, its just her name

[ember musk]

maybe we dont have much info on that, but her needolin dialogues never paint gms in bad light and she doesnt seem too mindcontrolled either, i dont think its a stretch to call her devoted still

[echo trellis]

Is choir clapper at the top of the ranks?

[feral inlet]

True

[visual glacier]

i think they serve the conductors

[edgy nebula]

i dont think so personally, they dont seem very smart and are clad in the same bronze-ish material that mass-produced guards/workers such as judges masks are made from instead of gold like conductors

[visual glacier]

"Mighty percussive disciple of the Choir, wielding a mallet and a Silk spool to wrap and enchance their attacks."

[ember musk]

team cherry thinks percussions are easy...

[visual glacier]

on top of only being in high halls i think they just serve the conductors

[echo trellis]

What about grand reeds?

[edgy nebula]

theyre guards

bred to be stronger for tougher opponents if i recall correctly

[visual glacier]

high standing insect of the choir

[ember musk]

just guards (and pricks, i lost a faydown steel soul run to one)

[visual glacier]

its big cause it eats a lot

canon btw

and cause it trains

more evidence to thk being bigger cause of training

[edgy nebula]

ok im going to bed now goodnight

i will dream of crust king khann dlc and steel assassin sharpe being real

[echo trellis]

What’s an envoy then?

[visual glacier]

"Guide and ofttimes leader within the Citadel's Choir."

[mortal birch]

Do we know what caused the ||"fall" of the 4 old strong bugs/|hearts of pharloom?|| Howd they fall and why did their kingdoms vanish

time?

[quartz salmon]

grand mother silk influence to sum it up

expanding her territory, building the citadel that pollutes everything around it, taking natural resources etc

[teal finch]

creation of the citadel is weavers' doing to keep gms asleep

[hasty vale]

but then the weavers are referred to as the "first children of pharloom" which implies that they at least coexisted with the height of the old hearts of pharloom

[terse warren]

How does it imply that?

[hasty vale]

if the weavers are both the first children of pharloom and the ones in power in its final non-gms stage, then they must have at least existed during whatever era the old hearts occupied

[terse warren]

?? How can they be the one in power during the final no GMS stage if GMS made them

[zinc pivot]

Then again we do not know if GMS continue to assert her influence during haunting era

[terse warren]

The haunting started like yesterday (not literally but very recent)

[zinc pivot]

Considering the recency of verdania

[hasty vale]

it was my understanding that there was a period in which the weavers controlled their own fate after sealing away GMS

[terse warren]

Yes

[zinc pivot]

Thats for certain given what is said by mask maker and ballador

[terse warren]

And then the Caste took over

I don't see how it implies that the Weavers HAD to have been in power when the Old Hearts were alive

[hasty vale]

also, i think the haunting's been going for a minute actually, as the cradle room implies that they've spent huge amounts of resources and time tracking down every last weaver

[terse warren]

It's probably been like a week

Since Bellhart got haunted, the shopkeeper has locked themselves up and survived only off of what they had in the shop

[zinc pivot]

Unless GMS subjugated them herself, it could only be that the weavers were commanded to do so for her

[terse warren]

I highly doubt Karmelita and Khaan, perfectly normal bugs, have been alive for that long

[mortal birch]

I doubt that the hearts (for lack of a better term) are any sort of higher being though

or anything like that

[terse warren]

That is the same thing I'm saying

[zinc pivot]

They must still be strong and have a lot of lifeforce or something

[mortal birch]

oh ok sorry it's late lol

[hasty vale]

yeah i'm not saying the weavers were in power during the hearts' prime, i'm just saying that they were coincident in the timeline

[mortal birch]

Is GMS a weaver herself?

[terse warren]

They are normal bugs, how are they going to survive so many generations?

[terse warren]

Nope

[zinc pivot]

No, though she does have arachnid features

Like her extra arms

[mortal birch]

so weaver refers to the spider people not just those who use silk

[hasty vale]

well it wasn't that long ago

[zinc pivot]

Weavers are a specific spider race elevated to sentience by GMS

[terse warren]

Yes it was, we have explicit dialogues saying that the Citadel Caste, so after Weavers left, have been in power for generations

[zinc pivot]

You can call them the hollow knights amazonian

[mortal birch]

some other races of pharloom as well like the pharlids and pilgrims right?

[zinc pivot]

No, just pharlids

[terse warren]

Weavers are specifically Pharlids

[zinc pivot]

And its ambushing brethren

[mortal birch]

Who made the pilgrims sentient then

[hasty vale]

you're right

[terse warren]

No one

[mortal birch]

[terse warren]

They were just sentient

Not every bug needs PK's beacon

[zinc pivot]

No idea, sentience of bugs remain a big question since first game

[terse warren]

Mantises didn't for once

[hasty vale]

something sometjing masks

[zinc pivot]

Remember Cloth? Cornifer and Iselda? Fucking Tiso and Zote?

[mortal birch]

I always imagined there was another god instead for example UUN with the green path bugs

in my headcannon maybe there's a Skarr higher being or something like that

[terse warren]

The beacon is something unique to PK/Wyrms

[zinc pivot]

Look at mantis and ask them if they have a higher being

[mortal birch]

Then i guess the question becomes why WERENT the bugs of hollowest sentient

[terse warren]

I doubt the Skarrs would've scattered like that if they had one

[terse warren]

Why are monkeys and dolphins smarter than cats?

[mortal birch]

I get that but they're all bugs, we're saying they're smarter just beacuse of where they're from seems pretty racist ngl /j

in all seriousness though the surface kinda contradicts this though

[zinc pivot]

A possible situation here is, bugs can still naturally progress to sentience given enough evolution, like humans

[terse warren]

They're different kinds of bugs???

[zinc pivot]

You see that most sentient natural bugs are very tribal and warring states

[mortal birch]

i got to grab the journal entry but it's very intresting in regards to this

What do we think of this

[terse warren]

Hornet is just saying it's not being controlled by the Haunting

[hasty vale]

yeah silk sickness is genetic, so she's noting that none of these show any signs of "infection"

[mortal birch]

ITS GENETIC????

[zinc pivot]

GMS only control bugs that has silk in them either through direct injection or inheritance through birth

[hasty vale]

according to whitehall lore as i understand it

[mortal birch]

I was too busy focusing on how they did the haunting

[zinc pivot]

Its not genetic, its like a case of hiv
Where the child got infected by parents who carry the disease

[terse warren]

The bugs put it inside them and now every subsequent bug has silk inside them

[mental roost]

microplastics

[mortal birch]

and yet the two bugs made of silk have seemingly completly free will

it's odd

[hasty vale]

higher beings, your will is yours alone

[terse warren]

Lace is not a higher being

[mortal birch]

https://tenor.com/view/me-atrapaste-es-cine-its-cinema-cinema-esto-es-cine-gif-17729711691959966457

[hasty vale]

(i don't think phantomlace are higher)

[terse warren]

It's completely possible GMS just wanted her daughters to have free will

Seems in line with the character

[zinc pivot]

Lace is given privilege
Hornet still has a half wyrm side thats equal in power

[mortal birch]

true she does show extreme devotion to (one) of her children

[hasty vale]

is phantom gendered?

[mortal birch]

also some said early GMS looks like a spider but imo i see a needle maybe for sewing especially her legs

[zinc pivot]

Presumably she

With GMS tendency to make daughters

[hasty vale]

it would seem thematically and literarily sound for phantom to be female but iirc they aren't explicitly gendered

[zinc pivot]

She never created male weavers in the first place

[terse warren]

Yes she is

[mortal birch]

i believe their gender is blue/collar

[terse warren]

Lace calls her sister

[hasty vale]

or is that phantom calling lace sister?

[zinc pivot]

Hard to tell without no cue

[mortal birch]

speaking of. In the silk heart cutscene after beating Lace 2 presumably GMS says "from our silk, a child born..."

OUR silk?

[terse warren]

It's Lace calling Phantom sister

[mortal birch]

who's OUR? she's not a weaver. another higher being?

[terse warren]

Phantom is in a cat she can't speak

[hasty vale]

yeah just checked, lace is the only one speaking

[terse warren]

GMS might just refer to herself as "Us"

[zinc pivot]

Higher beings pronouns stuff

Godly might equals godly mind

[hexed stump]

Dogly

[mortal birch]

Where's the godly might?

i must have missed that in my play through

she took like 4 tries and then 4 hours while cursed

[zinc pivot]

But less about higher beings pronouns, she can call herself whatever she feels like

[terse warren]

Curse of not being the true final boss

Watch Godmaster DLC give us Source of Silk as a GMS upgraded fight and she's just Anyrad

[mortal birch]

This and also the fact they wanted to have a "cursed" challenge so she couldn't be too hard normally

[urban zephyr]

Actually forgot about something.
Do we have any idea like. Why GMS was sleeping and needed a weaver to wake her up anyways?

Im assuming snail shaman or weaver mischief?

Or does she just like to nap in a dream state she cant wake up from without a weaver?

[terse warren]

The Weavers put her to sleep so they could be in power, then the Caste kept her sleeping

She's waking up by herself, she doesn't need Weavers

The reason she's getting Weavers is because she wants more Silk for Lace

[urban zephyr]

Gotcha. My "needs a weaver to wake up" thing came in part from the line "better a daughter to wish our waking"

So idk i wasnt sure but it gave an implication that she couldnt just wake up/free herself on her own

[terse warren]

It's because her other daughters aka the weavers are the ones that put her to sleep

[neat sandal]

she may still sleeping when you fight her.
you know, never seen her eye
may her eye still shutting

[mortal birch]

i CANNOT wait for godhome

CANNOT

[urban zephyr]

But i dont fully know what to make of that. Other assumption would be that she was just waiting till a weaver bound her so she could join with them (a la normal ending or whatever it is that is happening there but considering gms doesnt seem to resist you once you start binding her i think she WANTS you to bind her for some reason

[urban zephyr]

I mean she is pretty unique as pale beings go. Think she is just Like That

[olive glen]

Same

Or whatever the Godhome equivalent is

Tbh I want something new that's not just the Godseekers again

Even if technically the same (I.e boss rush mode + boss practice room)

[fallow spindle]

seeing that the pale king did not have buzzsaws in the white palace beforehand in hornets red memory makes me think bro just wants people to get tf out

[terse warren]

Dawg every pale being we saw is pretty unique

[fallow spindle]

bro ragequitted on trying to save this world xp

[olive glen]

Ngl I would do the same

[terse warren]

That's because you just beat her up

[urban zephyr]

I mean. Yes but i was specifically commenting on the fact she doesnt seem to have explicit eyes unlike PK/WL/radiance

[terse warren]

Radiance is never referred to as Pale

[urban zephyr]

She has arms she could try and rip you off her face if she was that desperate but she doesnt. I knwo getting stabbed in the face and having a weaver bind you is pretty debilatating but like if she can fight off the abyss in a desperate attempt to save lace she could in theory pull A Small Spider off her face if she really needed to

Im not convinced she is just "too weak to stop a spider from absorbing her power"

Like if she was too weak to do that she couldnt have staved off the abyss for as long as she did

[terse warren]

It is not uncommon for people to gain a strength surplus at the cost of their own health in dire situations

[urban zephyr]

She's been trying to get hornet to her this entire time, so im convinced she wanted hornet to bind her. Either to pass on her power to a weaver for some reason, or if she kills hornet then use her sill for some ends

[terse warren]

She wants Hornet so she can have Silk for Lace

[urban zephyr]

This is true but i think "oh fuck im about to die" should also count

[terse warren]

You'd be surprised

[urban zephyr]

Like "oh no im fucking about to die" also can do this

I know it isnt consistent but this is a video game lmao not real life

This isnt a irl situation where you just cant muster the effort to addrenile your way through a life or death situation it's "this is a god that has enough power that hornet cant outright kill it herself, only absorb it or trap it in the void"

So im still not convinced that GMS just didnt have any ability to react to hornet binding her. I think both killing horner and hornet usurping her were desired outcomes for GMS. Heavy theory yes and maybe im wrong but if gms didnt want to be bound i would expect them to have a "fail to bind gms" ending like with sealed siblings where if you dont do it right you get a weird bad ending

But if tou just dont press bind at all GMS just sits there screaming

[terse warren]

Which is not something that should be considered

It's just gameplay

Hornet canonically wouldn't just sit and wait

[wicked fossil]

Since the game has explored the idea of diving into memories, maybe the Boss rush/boss practice equivalent will be diving through Hornet's memories of all the bosses she's fought?

[urban zephyr]

It literally is in hollow knight if you get hornet to stun hollow knight and dont dream nail him lmao this argument doesnt track for team cherry

They account for this kinda stuff factually

Your arguments just do not convince me against my theory even if my theory isnt totally solid. Like. I get im being kinda stubborn and im sorry for that but i honestly just dont buy the alternative save for the explanation of "they scrapped an alternate ending for failed binding so this is what we got"

[terse warren]

Except that something happens in that case.

But why the hell would GMS want to bind with Hornet

Why would she fight to kill her if that was the case

It's basically confirmed that GMS wants Silk to sustain Lace

[urban zephyr]

Genuinely not disputing this but i would like to see the stuff confirming this cuz i dont really know anything that confirms it

[urban zephyr]

It is 100% totally reasonable that merging with hornet just gives GMS control of hornet given how much hornet changes from the binding. We literally have no idea what that fusion created. It also could be just like greyroot, a desire to propogate life by whatever means, even if you die in the process. Being bound by a weaver seemingly makes something stronger than what GMS is.
The idea that GMS could both want hornet to bind her or to kill hornet dont need to contradict. She could 100% be satisfied with both outcomes. Either she defeats hornet and gets silk to supply lace like you say, or she is bound with hornet and something greater and more powerful than her original self is created. Whether she is in control of that or not. Pale beings desire to propgate their influence and are beyond the logic of the average bug. Who is to say they would see their death creating a newer more poweful being as an inherent negative. That"s just eldritch 101

I could be totally wrong and yet i will argue this logic to my dying breath cause it just make sense. If team cherry proves me wrong i'll be happy to take the L but as the evidence stands im convinced killing hornet or being bound by her were both outcomes GMS desired for different reasons

[urban zephyr]

Also that is exactlu my point. Team cherry consistently includes so many details in this game that they wrote an ending for if hornet helps you subdue the Vessel and what happens if you dont dreamnail them. The fact they didnt do this for binding GMS given every detail they did include in this game is very telling.

They are very smart game devs who think of so many little nuances. The fact that they didnt include a "whoops you didnt actually bind GMS" ending says a lot about their intentions

(it isnt 100% air tight of course. It never is. But frankly im in favor of taking it as evidence rather than "they just didnt decide to do that" cause then why the fuck do they have a whole secret sidequest for pilby and every other minor secret in this game. It is OOZING with personality and attention to every little detail and the idea that they'd take 7 years of dev time and just decide "lol uh we dont need to include an option for failing to bind GMS" whwn they are fully willing to let the last judge kill you with a death blast and other stuff this game pulls is just not a take i jive with)

[fossil bobcat]

Why did they put grand mother silk to sleep anyway?

[urban zephyr]

I have to assume it was something the weavers did to help them escape GMS's control but idk

[zinc pivot]

So they can be free of her influences and live their own life

[fossil bobcat]

In the description for weaversong it says that the weavers left hallownest or left somewhere, I don't quite remember. Does that imply they came from pharloom, did their thing, then left hallownest or what?

[zinc pivot]

Basically

[urban zephyr]

There are several lore nodes in various weavenests that show their desire and plans to flee pharloom. The weavers are originally from pharloom and fled everywhere. One place being hallownest but there is a room in the cradle that shows weavers fled to other places too

[fossil bobcat]

Huh

Interesting

[worn trout]

well at least one is still hanging around hallownest but they prolly left hallownest when the infection started causing issues since they know they dont want to stick around for some higher being hivemind

or they just all died

[fossil bobcat]

Do you mean midwife?

[urban zephyr]

Might take a while but if someone wants screenshots of the cradle lore i can get it

[worn trout]

no i mean the one that runs away from the ghost in hollow knight when you leave the weavenest

midwife dosent look like a weaver to me

[fossil bobcat]

I don't think I saw that, or maybe I forgot

[urban zephyr]

Is the midwife that npc in deepnest that eventually tries to attack you i forget

[worn trout]

yeah

[lean temple]

She just isn't one. Not only does she look nothing like one, she also talks about them in a way that confirms she isn't one of them.

[worn trout]

i cant find a good video of it but after getting the weaversong charm in hollow knight when you try to leave the weaverden you see a weaver run out of the nest away from the ghost

i actually just saw it trying to get my steel soul achivements for hk lol

[ember river]

How is greyroot a desire to propagate life, rebirth isn't birth

[urban zephyr]

Anyways im sorry for ranting like a lunatic but until silksong lore or team cherry expressly confirm "GMS didnt want hornet to bind her" i forever hold my right to remain convinced being bound by hornet was a welcomed outcome by GMS

[ember river]

It's more of a desire to propagate his own life

[urban zephyr]

???? Greyroot literally asks you to bring the twisted bud to her, infuses it into you, and dies in the process. What more is there to understand

[worn trout]

also what is the deal with that seal with hornet on it in the deepnest weaverden

has silksong added any context to that

[ember river]

It may just want to rebirth from within you

[urban zephyr]

That is a desire to propogate life lmao

[ember river]

Hence rebirth

[urban zephyr]

It still counts idk what makes you think it contradicts what i am saying

[fossil bobcat]

Greyroot is freaky

[urban zephyr]

Rebirth and birth are still "continuing life" even if it is their own life

[zinc pivot]

I don’t think silksong is needed to explain that
Its just to say that Weavers made seal of binding for Pale Kings plan

[wary plover]

The way it wobbles about is uncanny

I don't even want to look at it

[worn trout]

oh wait thats definitly the hollow knights face and not hornet

[urban zephyr]

My point was that hornet binding GMS could be functionally similar to greyroot infesting hornet with the twisted bud. Creating a new form via a parasite that either takes control of you entirely or transforms you into something new that the "mother" (GMS or Greyroot) desire to see created. Either as the host of that new creation or them simply enacting it's creation but not living to see it. This is especially relevant to insects because this happens all the time in certain life cycles of insects

[fossil bobcat]

The whole twisted bud/greyroot storyline is so weird but also fits so well into the world

[ember river]

Binding is not parasitism though

[ancient dock]

I think it creates a new virus, infection that turns everything into wood

[urban zephyr]

It is just classic possession/eldritch transformation tropes, im shocked people are so resistant to the idea

[ember river]

I'd say it's more like ascension than posession

[urban zephyr]

Please look up the definitions for "functionally similar"

They are not the same but serve the same purpose

[fossil bobcat]

Hornet binding gms would probably make it so hornet just becomes a puppet for gms

[ember river]

Doubt so

[worn trout]

are you refering to the gms binding or the twisted bud?

[ember river]

More like Hornet gives in to her Wyrm side compelling her into ascending into a ruler

[fossil bobcat]

Gms's silk likely overpowers hornets, because she's the primal source of silk

[ember river]

And Hornet is half wyrm, what's your point

[worn trout]

i believe that the caretaker has some kind of dialogue that asks if hornet is just going to take up the mantel of gms

[ember river]

That is likely, yes, but it'll still be Hornet

[urban zephyr]

Both. I am comparing the two together and suggesting there are narrative similarities that could imply that hornet binding GMS may have led to hornet becoming a possessed vessel for GMS or something that transcends them both but more aligns with GMS's desires than hornets, and that GMS likely wanted this outcome or killing hornet near equally

[worn trout]

yeah im saying that the caretaker is likely asking if hornet is just going to take over and start running shit instead of gms

[ancient dock]

I originally thought this was the case

[ember river]

Yep, that's why he's surprised when Hornet mentions ridding the world of a monarch entirely instead of she wanting to take over

[ember river]

That goes against what binding has been shown to be

[urban zephyr]

I know maybe it isnt true but the game has given me nothing to suggest otherwise yet

[worn trout]

i dont see why gms would have the power to take over hornets body and mind after getting wrecked in combat, if the idea that she is ok with being bound because she takes over hornet was true wouldent it make more sense for that to be the outcome preferable to killing hornet since gms controlling hornet elevated to a more divine form being more powerful than base gms

[ember river]

It also makes no sense as to why Hornet would bind her if that was just empowering her

[urban zephyr]

True, crests usually are much more mundane, but consider that until the twisted bud is weakened it completely debilatates hornet's standard capabilities, and doesnt become a crest until it is weakened by yarnaby's surgery. What is to say binding a full pale being wouldnt also result in something functionally similar: a merging of beings that hornet no longer possesses control of, and the power of the pale being claiming control of her body, aka possession and transformation into a pale being even more powerful than GMS

[ember river]

She is clearly aware of what she's about to do when talking to Caretaker, but she sees no alternative to rid Pharloom of GMS

[worn trout]

hornet clearly knows her way around dealing with pale/higher beings i dont see why she would fall for a trick like that

[urban zephyr]

Because she doesnt know it would do that? Ignorance is a thing lmao. Shadow of the colossus likely would end differently if the protag knew it would almost entirely fail and end in his death (unless he knew his sister would live but that is different)

Hornet binding GMS is the same style of ending as the knight replacing the hollow knight, a not-good outcome done in desperation with little alternatives available at the time. Horner cant kill GMS, all she could do on her own is bind it. And binding GMS didnt do anything good

[worn trout]

hornet was raised by, has combated against, and is born from higher beings and she does not show any idea that that would even be a possibility

[urban zephyr]

gestures to getting captured by thr citadel, jailers, and Greyroot
Hornet is not perfect lmao

[fossil bobcat]

Are pale beings different from higher beings?

[ancient dock]

Tbf Wander had a idea about what would happen since Dormin upstraight tells him, Hornet is different because she goes by her own knowledge of binding

[ancient dock]

He doesn't care about consequences

[ember musk]

what do you guys think ava could be? artificial silk life experiments by weavers? akin to lace?

[worn trout]

i dont believe the radiance or NKG are refered to as pale

[worn trout]

i believe she is an attempt to create a god that failed

[ancient dock]

Pretty sure she was created by weavers to be a attempt to be the next GMS

[fossil bobcat]

I think she was a failed experiment? Because she had to stay in her pod forever

[worn trout]

"Higher beings are god-like creatures in the world of Hollow Knight that exist above all others. They have certain abilities and powers that regular bugs do not, although these abilities are generally different for each higher being. In addition to this, some higher beings were deified; worshipped as gods by other bugs.

"Pale being" is a term which refers to three higher beings, the Pale King, the White Lady, and Grand Mother Silk."

[ember musk]

makes sense

[urban zephyr]

Fair i havent played SotC so that is kinda stupid for me to alude to it. But then also doesnt that just mean it is more likely hornet could not truly know what would happen by binding GMS? Thus making the idea it could backfire on her totally possible. Just like the void trap backfires on the shamans and hornet cause they didnt anticipate Lace's interference

[ancient dock]

Failed because she couldn't leave her pod

[green charm]

Um, chat, may I ask a strange question?

[worn trout]

this is a quote from the wiki on higher beings, we dont see the nightmare heart or radiance referred to as pale

[fossil bobcat]

What exactly was lace trying to do? I'm not quite sure

[worn trout]

same with unn and the void

[urban zephyr]

She stopped GMS from taking hornet into the trap with her as an act of rebellion and cause she doesnt value her own life

[zinc pivot]

Foil her mother like a rebellious daughter

[fossil bobcat]

Oh

That makes sense

I thought gms was trying to get out and lace stopped her

[zinc pivot]

Well, she is trying to get out
Or pull hornet with her

[urban zephyr]

I think i thought that too until lace explicitly stated it was an act of rebellion later and it clicked since gms had hornet fully gripped in both her hands

[worn trout]

i think that all pale beings are higher beings but not all higher beings are pale, and im really not sure what the distinction is since many higher beings who arent called pale seem to want the same things as the pale beings

[green charm]

The automatons in the core are animated via silk and “soul given freely,” and that’s presumably why their eyes glow white. Hornet can craft her own cogflies, which are a similar model to the ones that the conductors in the high halls use. Those ones don’t have glowing eyes even though silk is probably used to animate them, they can follow orders from the conductors without electrical signals and adjust their flight path without input which you probably couldn’t do with just cogs. Hornet’s cogflies do have glowing eyes though, and their behavior is a bit more complex, that kind of makes me wonder, is it just specifically hornet’s silk that makes their eyes glow or are they animated via soul like the other constructs with glowing eyes

Then again silk isn’t required to create cogflies, so, what is it just soul
Is that just a game mechanic thing

[worn trout]

what was the snails plan if that happened lol

[fossil bobcat]

Can hornet even manipulate soul?

[urban zephyr]

Anyways this has been a valuable lesson in why i should probably not speculate on lore i have Opinions About™ with randoms, not of any fault of random internet people but i get stuck in a loop of wondering why tf my theories are getting so much push back and it makes me more insistent on them and it turns into a vicious loop of arguing my theory and being convinced anyone disputing it is wrong and stupid, and then either im correct and frustrated, incorrect and proven im acting like an asshole, or some equally unsatisfying third thing that doesnt benefit anyone. Well wishes to the lore heads but im gonna ban myself from this channel save for minor clarifications on things for everyone's sanity

[worn trout]

i mean we know manipulating soul is a skill even normal bugs can learn so she either can or could

[green charm]

Maybe the distinction is that all pale beings are hardcoded to want to create legions of their own, whilst for others it’s not hardcoded. They can still desire to rule but that’s for personal reasons

[urban zephyr]

They didnt account dor it, the plan was just "yoink that pale being into the void where it will get eaten and poof problem solved"

[worn trout]

genius

[green charm]

Ah
Snail Shamans
They’re good at making spells but they’re also good at dying in many creative and horrible ways

[worn trout]

every confirmed higher being has been worshipped as a god though so im not sure if that holds water

[green charm]

I think the sample size is too small

[worn trout]

true, we would need to see a higher being that dosent have an active/former religious following

[green charm]

There’s PK, WL, Gamama Silk, and Hornet kind of
That’s like what, 4? 3 1/2?

[urban zephyr]

Hk3 where actually the pale being is chill as fuck and everything is awesome :) it is a farming sim

[green charm]

I think the point may be that they all crave worship and they all have the power to attain it

[worn trout]

unn, nightmare heart, and the void are all higher beings

[green charm]

I was talking about pale beings in particular with those

[zinc pivot]

That leaves only Ghost lmao

Only their family knew of their nature

[worn trout]

ghost is just like a froyo mix of higher beings so

[green charm]

I had a theory that Bardoon was a HB but I was very very very tired then and I had just hit my head when I started writing it

[fossil bobcat]

Who's bardoon again?

[worn trout]

i guess the fungal core might also be a higher being

[green charm]

Ghost is like a cup of vanilla froyo that was dumped out and then filled with chocolate froyo
There’s still flecks of vanilla in the cup

[worn trout]

big jolly thing that hangs out in kingdoms edge and can stop you from dreamnailing it

[zinc pivot]

The guy with an ass you can hit in kingdoms edge

[fossil bobcat]

Oh yeah that guy

[worn trout]

when you dreamnail it it goes "hey dont do that"

[green charm]

Plus he’s a caterpillar, seeing as he’s L A R G E I thought he was maybe some sort of larval form of a moth deity like Rad but that was a crack theory at best

[worn trout]

but that dosent mean anything about being a higher being considering that the moth woman in resting grounds can also tell when they are being dreamnailed

[zinc pivot]

Bardoon is quite ancient though

Thats all, we rarely see ancient bugs that is at good health

[green charm]

Yea, I think that’s just something that very old beings who’ve been around moths pick up eventually

[worn trout]

but yeah back to the topic of if hornet can manipulate soul, she either can manipulate soul or could learn how to do it pretty easily

i think she likely already can

[green charm]

Needolin

I mean using Needolin to snare enemies and make them sing probably has something to do with soul, right?

[shell jewel]

DOES ANYONE HAVE THE MUSIC THAT PLAYS WHEN YOU DIE IN STEAL SOUL? LIKE THE ACTUAL GAME OVER SCREEN MUSIC? I WANT IT PLEASE IT'S SO SOOTHING TO ME

[green charm]

Wrong channel, mate

[zinc pivot]

In weaver style she probably draws it out in silk form

[worn trout]

i think that with how similarly soul and silk work both in lore and as a gameplay mechanic if you can manipulate one it wouldent be hard to manipulate the other

[shell jewel]

my bad

[green charm]

It’s too late
We’re killing you now
I’ll get the silkshot

[zinc pivot]

There are certainly different signature in silk magic and soul magic though

[shell jewel]

Try me

[green charm]

Weaver Silk is like, infused with soul already, right?

[zinc pivot]

Like the shamans soul creates a signature to open portal to abyss

[green charm]

Waits for about 15 frames and then shoots

[worn trout]

probably

[ancient dock]

Mr mushroom?

[zinc pivot]

Mr Mushroom is only a herald

[worn trout]

i dont think its confirmed if the mushrooms are higher beings or if they just do that

[green charm]

Nahhhhh, Mr. Mushroom isn’t a higher being
He’s just fucking weird

[zinc pivot]

You can say hes sort of a harbinger of kingdoms

[green charm]

And probably psychic

[worn trout]

both are used to cast spells, both are stored and used for experimentation and charm/tool crafting, both are animating forces that bring bugs to life and both have shown to be able to be manipulated both by higher beings and normal bugs who have trained to do so

[vague whale]

Third game we play as Mister Mushroom

[maiden meteor]

Mr Mushroom Idle Simulator

[green charm]

Hollow Knight: Mushsong

[vague whale]

It's him burrowing to the next kingdom

[worn trout]

we know that GMS is the source of the silk so its possible that thats just how she uses soul

[vague whale]

You just sit there and wait for him to pop up on the other side while he mutters riddles at you

[green charm]

It probably is, seeing as WL also uses Soul, but she uses it to grow in size instead

[summer mauve]

I interpreted "source of all silk" as meaning the original creator of silk. Fairly sure the weavers are still able to spin silk even if gms is gone

[green charm]

She likely gave that ability to the Weavers when she uplifted them from those bugs

[zinc pivot]

Shes the primal source of silk, as in the first

Shes certainly not the only one

[green charm]

Mhmmm
Hornet does it by herself

[maiden meteor]

Just learnt that corpse with maggot protection charm is third pinstress

[worn trout]

i think its most likely that silk maniuplation is just another style of soul manipulation

[green charm]

Well, she did before she was trapped for like a month and went careening 100ft or more down a shaft directly onto solid rock

[green charm]

Probably

Come to think of it, there are way more “magic” users in Pharloom than there are in Hallownest

[maiden meteor]

Yeah pretty sure you don’t need HB around to benefit from its boons

[green charm]

I should make a lore video about soul in the HK universe and all the different styles and techniques it’s used in

[maiden meteor]

like PK’s mind beacon still seems to work

[green charm]

No, it’s contained to his kingdom

There’s an area of effect

[scenic stirrup]

I kinda thought that hornet and herrah wouldve had a bad relationship but what they have is honestly pretty wholesome

[maiden meteor]

Yeah but it still works even with him erased completely

[summer mauve]

I think some things just exist for gameplay reasons.
The devs said in an AMA that the only reason Mister Mushroom came to be was because Cornifer's empty spot in the fungal area looked sad without him there

[worn trout]

i do think its odd that void seems to destroy the silk hornet has yet dosent destroy the soul the vessel holds but that could just be because of the vessels nature as also being a void entity

[green charm]

The weavers went all the way to Hallownest which is presumably multiple days away if not MONTHS and they could still spin silk just fine
It’s a biological thing

[summer mauve]

When does the void destroy silk specifically?

[green charm]

That’s also why Widow couldn’t spin her own silk when those needles were jammed into her back

[maiden meteor]

I assume that GMS gave weavers piece of her essence or smth

[vague whale]

and then they made him ridiculously important in both games

[worn trout]

when you get hit by a void enemy in silksong it eats some of your silk

[summer mauve]

Ah. I remember now. Fair

[green charm]

-# I mean, he’s not really important. He just kind of sits there

[summer mauve]

Could also be interpreted as taking some of your soul though

[maiden meteor]

he does give some big lore drops but that’s about it

[summer mauve]

I think he's just a witness rather than any kind of participant

[green charm]

Yea
He’s sort of passive, doesn’t do much

[worn trout]

considering how the flower interacts with the void eating your silk its likely the silk is just soul in another form

that flower does just have a lot of anti void properties though

[green charm]

It’s not lost on me that Mr. Mushroom lived through slavery and did nothing

[maiden meteor]

Why can’t we use flower to purify Garmond

[green charm]

One of the many things I like about Silksong is that it retroactively made HK’s lore much cooler

[summer mauve]

Alternatively, even if void does eat silk, gms can make a lot of silk

[worn trout]

because team cherry hates us

[green charm]

-# Yea like a whole kingdom’s worth of silk

[summer mauve]

Doesn't matter how much you love eating pizza, you will hit your limit eventually

[maiden meteor]

She does seem almost expended in Void

but she like made giant ass cocoon in here so

[worn trout]

well whats odd is also that the void society in hk created soul totems which wouldent make sense if the void was antithical to silk/soul

[maiden meteor]

Maybe void has some soul conservation properties if used right

and that’s how totems were made

[green charm]

I was playing Silksong when I learned that Garmond would die in Act 3, I was working on finding the fleas so that I could get into Act 3 but now I don’t really want to because I know Garmond will probably die and Hornet and I will have to kill him

[ember river]

Void and soul clearly can coexist in some way, Wingsmoulds and presumably kingsmoulds were made from both

Also, Vessels can use soul extensively

[summer mauve]

I don't think Team Cherry actually has answers to all of these questions. Some things just exist for the game and were retroactively justified later / don't actually have a justification at all

[green charm]

That’s why it’s fun to theorize

[maiden meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/canon-event-lochan-bwefi-lochan-bwefi-spiderman-gif-1748690152864391590

[ember river]

Even in silksong wingsmoulds are mentioned to be made of soul and void

[mint furnace]

The only solace I have is that lace and hornet probably adopt Zaza

[worn trout]

i think the void just likes to eat

[green charm]

https://tenor.com/view/miles-morales-across-the-spider-verse-spider-man-miles-morales-miles-morales-running-away-running-gif-16349151473948188499

[summer mauve]

Fair enough. Can't argue with that

[ember river]

That's pretty much it

[worn trout]

primordial glutton

[mint furnace]

Void is more of a natural force than an actual living thing

[green charm]

Isn’t Zaza like a grown ass person

[summer mauve]

Nom

[mint furnace]

The vessels are a weird amalgamation of, well, void given form

[mint furnace]

He’s the brains of the operation

[green charm]

Definitely

Garmond’s head is about as hollow as his horn-lance

[mint furnace]

Regardless, he’s intelligent beyond just a steed

[summer mauve]

This is slander!

[green charm]

shhhhhhhhhhhh

[mint furnace]

He can talk, if the song is anything to go by

[summer mauve]

Leave the gentleman alone!

He's doing his best!

[green charm]

Well, he was doing his best

[maiden meteor]

In next game we play as Zaza on his quest to avenge Garmond

[green charm]

Too soon

[mint furnace]

Against what though?

Hornet? Lace? Is he gonna drain the abyss?

[maiden meteor]

Gather 1 billion Everblooms and throw them into Abyss

[green charm]

Zaza gets a gun and shoots the abyss to death

[green charm]

Woe, everbloom be upon ye

[mint furnace]

Shades playing cards watching a nuclear bomb drop in their pool:

[ember river]

Zaza vs Void Given Focus

[maiden meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/sun-wukong-hand-buddha-high-five-meme-gif-9245181199487904868

[green charm]

I love Ghost but its ass is not surviving 3 rounds agains Zaza

[maiden meteor]

the knight trying to stop everbloom nuke

[ember river]

I mean, the shades weren't really behind the lost bugs

[worn trout]

real hollowknight heads know that if bardoon felt like he could have easily usurped the pale king and the radiance

[ember river]

It was still GMS's fault

[maiden meteor]

Could Zote usurp Bardoon

[mint furnace]

Bardoon and ass Jim would dunk on any pale being

[ember river]

Bardoon just wanted some rest, he cares not for the petty squabbles of lesser bugs

By "lesser bugs" I mean the likes of the Pale King

[green charm]

Bardoon and Ass Jim are older than time, the last universe ended because they squabbled over which flavor of slushie was better

[ember river]

Zote is already the unifier of both halves of the dream realms by wielding his avatar with 1% of his power, Grey Prince Zote.
Grimm and the Radiance pay tribute to him

[green charm]

Wait uno secundo
If beings can be dreamed into existence (Grey Prince Zote) and then escape to infect the real world (the Knight’s final form, the Radiance), if a bug was determined enough could they dream a world-ending threat into existence

That’s a can of worms for another day

[midnight tree]

I Think kingdoms in the World of HK are made only by Pale beings, while other Higher beings achieve a maximum of Tribes and Such.
That or they steal those kingdoms for themselves.

[maiden meteor]

that’s why we have to defeat GPZ at first place

[midnight tree]

It makes Sense given some SS dialogue

[maiden meteor]

Power of Bretta’s fanfiction could end entire world if it wasn’t for Knight

[midnight tree]

Now I Want an Orchid Mantis with their own kingdom😭

[green charm]

Technically the crust clan managed to create a proper kingdom before they were colonized

[green charm]

I hate that this isn’t entirely a joke

[mint furnace]

This is why we lock “dream realm implications” in a gas chamber, because brettas ao3 self insert fanfic having the ability to kill god is not something I want to be real

[midnight tree]

So Pale Beings are colonizers, got it

[green charm]

I mean yes they are colonizers in the truest sense of the word and many other senses

[midnight tree]

I NEED A COLONIZING ORCHID MANTIS GOD

[mint furnace]

It’s just how they are

[vague whale]

Do we have an Ass Jim emote yet

[mint furnace]

Pale beings just like having kingdoms

[midnight tree]

Zote Will spread around the World Bro Trust, Bretta's fangirling is Just too strong.

[maiden meteor]

What if in trequel we meet Bretta again and have to make her dream deus ex machina into existence

[mint furnace]

Knight has to kill him 10 times to contain it

Radiance dies in one

[green charm]

…White Defender

[midnight tree]

I NEED AN ORCHID MANTIS GOD NOWWWWW!!!! I LOVE THEM SO MUCH AND IT MAKES PERFECT SSEEEEEENSE😭

[mint furnace]

Same

[green charm]

Shush

[maiden meteor]

Ogrim just likes to glaze himself this much

[mint furnace]

I’ve always seen it as he’s kinda delusional

[green charm]

Dung Defender glazes himself so hard reality collapses

[vague whale]

[mint furnace]

Being the last guard of a dead kingdom, losing your wife, and now swimming in shit can not be good for the mental

[midnight tree]

It would be Perfect tho

[maiden meteor]

Hollow Knight powerscaling community would be nuts with ability to manifest their agenda into dream realm

[green charm]

Jeez how many widows are in the HK series

[mint furnace]

One second

[midnight tree]

In name and Virtue, a bunch, yeah

[vague whale]

can you imagine real Hornet vs Dream Realm community Hornet

[maiden meteor]

Team Cherry hate stable marriages

[keen compass]

Lore note, I think Lace survives post ending and they leaves pharloom with Hornet and let me say why I think this-

[midnight tree]

No but like fr, Hornet vs what Ppl think Hornet is would be peak

[green charm]

Dung Defender, Grey Mourner, the Green Prince, Zaza (probably), Cloth, I could probably go on but that’s just off the top of my head

[mint furnace]

I think we the entire franchise has 3 stable relationships

[midnight tree]

Adoption

[mint furnace]

Which is not a good ratio

[worn trout]

explain sheo and nailsmith

[green charm]

Hornet would escape into the real world to slap all of us in the face for the fanart

[vague whale]

NO IT WOULD NOT. We do not need real sprites for what the community thinks Hornet looks like

[vague whale]

Exactly

[keen compass]

Well the final menu u unlock with Lace and Hornet's wep on it after finishin act 3 is the 'Surface' menu

[mint furnace]

Nail master was gonna commit suicide, that one still had rocky starts

[maiden meteor]

You mean my spell cast dummy?

[keen compass]

I think Hornet and Lace genuinely post game leave Pharloom straight up

[edgy barn]

Wait until they reappear in a game.

[mint furnace]

Lace and hornet are still kinda complex so I’m gonna say our one solid relationship is cornifer and iselda

[keen compass]

So here's holding out that HK3 has Lace as our playable protag this time since so far the theme for our game protags are whoever our rival is in the respective game

[worn trout]

yall dont know about the sheo pregnancy comic clearly

[mint furnace]

1 out of like 10

[vague whale]

Imagine when they reappear they have kids and are fine

[green charm]

Oh yea

WAIT Y’ALL ARE SHIPPING LACE AND HORNET??????

[keen compass]

They're basically sisters, so I don't see anything happenin there if ur talkin ship or somethin

[midnight tree]

Also WTF happened to THK After Dream No More? IT'S the best candidate for Canon Ending and I rlly Want to know

[vague whale]

DUH

[summer mauve]

I'm a fan of the idea that Hornet stays in Pharloom

[green charm]

WH
WH
BUH
GUH
HUH
THAT’S A CHILD

[maiden meteor]

drinking beer and eating chips

[keen compass]

Like... Lace and Hornet are uh... Kinda related...

[edgy barn]

He dead

[keen compass]

Lace and Hornet are both adults

[cobalt coyote]

Watch them try to justify it by it being a silken creature

[midnight tree]

So the Third game we play as Savage Beast fly? Great!

[midnight tree]

Noooou😭

[green charm]

Isn’t Lace like explicitly stated to have the mind and body of a child

[worn trout]

pharloom post true ending is clearly a better place to stay than hallownest so i dont see why hornet wouldent hang around considering how much time she spent bumming around dead hallownest

[vague whale]

oh my gods fine you can all handle Shakra and Hornet at least right

[keen compass]

Either way, they are related and they clearly aren't interested in one another like that

[mint furnace]

If I see a chance for toxic yuri then I’m calling on it toxic yuri

[green charm]

Shakra and Hornet is cool
They’ve got my thumbs up

[edgy barn]

No they aren't. The whole point of First Sinner is that weavers aren't gms'real daughters

[mint furnace]

NO

[summer mauve]

She literally isn't? She's actually older than a lot of the cast.
Not a shipper, worth mentioning

[vague whale]

thank gods

[midnight tree]

Adoption tho

[mint furnace]

WHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE SAY THAT

[maiden meteor]

Let’s be real Hornet won’t stick with Lace unless she has to supply Lace with silk

[green charm]

DID YOU READ THE JOURNAL

[mint furnace]

Read the lost lace entry vro

[keen compass]

Can two women be friends without people bein weird and shipping them TwT

[midnight tree]

I dreamed of a HK Sequel Where we play as THK and the game is a Civ manager😭

[cobalt coyote]

Nope they always ship

[vague whale]

people r dumb

[worn trout]

3rd game is quirell quest obviously

[mint furnace]

Reading interpretation of the 4th grade

“Guy said child, must be child”

[vague whale]

QUIRRELL

[green charm]

I’m gonna be honest I like Hornet and Shakra way better as friends but the community craves yuri and I can do nothing to sate them

[maiden meteor]

Quirell point & click adventure

[worn trout]

hornet is a child because shakra said so

[green charm]

Oh
Right

[vague whale]

I would play the hell out of that ngl

[mint furnace]

We are an unstoppable flood, I’m sorry

[keen compass]

Hornet in game has zero romantic interest

[vague whale]

YURI WARRIORS GO!!!!

[worn trout]

hornet and pinmaster secret ship not many are ready for

[maiden meteor]

Hornet is married to concept of fluffy bugs

[mint furnace]

That’s mostly due to her being immortal though

[midnight tree]

Zote X Zote is the best ship tho

[keen compass]

That's a mistake lol Shakra refers to Hornet as that cuz Hornet looks really young which is prob true given she is a demigod who ages much much much slower

[green charm]

Wasn’t there a journal entry about how she’s had partners before? That’s not really related it just came to mind

[mint furnace]

Zote x precepts of zote*

[worn trout]

im aware

[cobalt coyote]

No, Hornet is the needle "child wielding needle" a needle wielding a child

[vague whale]

There was, yes

[keen compass]

By in game, I mean with those of the cast in pharloom

[worn trout]

thats almost like the joke

[midnight tree]

😭

[mint furnace]

Ye, and now they’ve always died because… she doesn’t

[keen compass]

Women can be friends and not be romantically interested in one another

[midnight tree]

THK X Nail is the Only ship I stand for.

[worn trout]

zote x mirror

[maiden meteor]

Credit where it’s due, making 57 precepts and then remembering them word by word is a lot of commitment

[mint furnace]

I don’t care the gender fluids of the characters they are being shipped

[green charm]

They are both the bride and the wedding vows

[maiden meteor]

in fact enough commitment for it to breach into Godhome

[mint furnace]

All while not breathing or dreaming

[vague whale]

okay like people ship every guy they can with every girl they can, we're perfectly allowed to yuri it up in here instead

[mint furnace]

Absolute goat

[midnight tree]

Would Hornet rlly Kill THK After Embrace The Void? I Don't think she would be the type to kill without much reason

[ember river]

I don't think they can actually take over unless the dreaming bug is powerful enough to create such a projection.
So no matter how strong GPZ was, he couldn't really leave Breta's mindscape for example, nor would dream bosses be able to leave their places of death.

That's the way I see it, at least

[keen compass]

You're allowed and I'm allowed to think ur extremely weird for doing so...

[mint furnace]

Hes dead in dream no more so I assume you mean embrace the void?

[maiden meteor]

They prob had a rumble but Hornet is perfectly able to not kill

[midnight tree]

Oh Wrong Name yeah

[ember river]

THK most likely vanished into the void along the other shells in DNM

[midnight tree]

Embrace The Void I mean

[mint furnace]

Hornet would probably realize he’s not infected

[green charm]

Mmmmm, I suppose the Radiance only escaped because it’s a god and the Knight only escaped because it was being channeled through like 15 thousand bugs’ minds so yea

[worn trout]

i dont even think they fought

[ember river]

I'd say they wouldn't fight each other

[vague whale]

lol you think people are extremely weird for shipping women together, insert lord farquaad point here

[midnight tree]

Wrong name😭

[worn trout]

this is the lore channel save shipping arguments for twitter

[ember river]

The Radiance didn't escape, that was her realm to begin with, seemingly shared with the Nightmare Heart.
Eventually, it was split amongst those two

[keen compass]

No, I think you're weird for shipping Lace and Hornet together lol They're more like sisters, frens, and rivals

[mint furnace]

Shipping dynamics are important lore

[vague whale]

ew imagine using twitter

[worn trout]

in the divorce

[midnight tree]

Yeah I Think He's Alive in Hallownest at the time of SS

[maiden meteor]

What are lore implications of Pinmasters trouple ship

[green charm]

Come to think it there are probably more dream gods

[summer mauve]

The shippers won't let any two characters just be friends

[keen compass]

Also wut about the radiance? The radiance was imperfectly sealed in the hollow knight- But was in the dream realm to begin with

[mint furnace]

THK, lemm, and elderbug have been left in charge

[midnight tree]

Lucid Dream god going hard

[keen compass]

The Lifeblood god is seemingly a dream god

[summer mauve]

Regardless of gender of how compatible they are or if they're related....

[ember river]

A whole lot of power was used to seal her entire domain within THK's dreamscape

[worn trout]

most of the mantises never even had a societal collapse they stayed chilling

[green charm]

Hmmmmm yea that checks

[ember river]

And it was done by the Pale King either way

[vague whale]

that's right, we're coming for your blorbos! be scared, you're so scared that other people have opinions you don't like

[midnight tree]

I Think Lemm would be the best One to do that, THK likely Wasn't taught How to rule and Elderbug is Very Young

[worn trout]

put bardoon in charge

[keen compass]

No one said you can't have the opinion. However, others can freely judge your opinion

[mint furnace]

“We have no idea what we are doing, but I guess we’re gonna figure it out”

[vague whale]

LEMM RULE THE WORLD

[ember river]

Emilitia being the new ruler of Hallownest has more chances than you're giving it

[worn trout]

honestly at the end of the dream no more ending i think the most viable candidates for who is ruling the largest portion of hallownest is the manti

[maiden meteor]

THK would probably get into tabletop games instead of ruling

[green charm]

The mantis tribe is literally the 1 group of more than like 3 people that have been totally unaffected by their respective apocalypses

[muted rover]

I just saw Sister of the Void ending

So definitely this game is a sequel chronologically and the god home ending for defeating Absolute Radiance is the TRUE ending in HK?

[vague whale]

I would vote Lemm for Ruler of Hallownest and he would probably hate it so much

[midnight tree]

Tbh with How Well the PK managed to make the economy stable After death, they Must have an easy time.

[mint furnace]

Hornet comes back to a fascist dictatorship

[summer mauve]

I'm aromantic. I think all of you are weird. But I know I'm the odd one out

[mental roost]

elderbug is younger than lemm?

[keen compass]

Yes enter the void is the most likely canonical ending

[mint furnace]

Yeah it persisted after death with no inflation

[edgy barn]

We have no reason to believe Lemm is any older than elderbug, neither of them were around to see hallownest's fall

[green charm]

Nope
It could be interpreted that way, but they purposely made it so that it could be left to interpretation

[worn trout]

hard to say but there are some endings that have become totally unviable lore wise, i think both dream no more and the godhome endings could be cannonical

[summer mauve]

Elderbug might be one of the youngest characters in Hallownest going by implied timelines

[green charm]

He probably wouldn’t be interested

[maiden meteor]

Lemm is probably in his 50’s at most

[vague whale]

Hollow Knight 3: La Revolucion

[worn trout]

thats why hes the perfect candidate

[green charm]

Oh yea, that’s pretty smart

[keen compass]

huh new lore thing unlocked, the beast song has diff dialogue if u play it for people

[muted rover]

So either defeating Radiance or Absolute Radiance are the possible endings

[mint furnace]

Yeah, anything else doesn’t really make sense

[ancient dock]

I think due to lemm knowledge about totems and having a shop in cot he’s definitely been around much longer

[vague whale]

I genuinely think Lemm is such an interesting character

[mental roost]

no not really
people not interested in ruling just leave the job to someone else

[maiden meteor]

It’s funny Lemm talks about relicseeker community

[mint furnace]

With the way he talks it’s probably not his first time doing this

[maiden meteor]

like how do they meet

[green charm]

Dream portals, doy

[vague whale]

they're wizards and they can teleport

[worn trout]

yeah, the ending where hornet is trapped in the void egg is obviously nonviable and the ending where ghost takes up the mantel of holding the radiance leaves the ghost trapped in there

[maiden meteor]

Lemm is the only relicseeker in Hallownest and other kingdoms are possible weeks aways

[mint furnace]

They can travel between kingdoms because their minds are fortified by random knowledge of dead people

[edgy barn]

I have always wondered if there actually were other relic seekers or if he was just crazy.

[muted rover]

well what about Lace

due to how it ended definitely Pharloom was freed but is Lace still alive?

[worn trout]

we dont know that, could be other relic seekers and we just dont meet them

[green charm]

I’m just wondering why there are snail shamans everywhere

[mint furnace]

She’ll live as long as she stays with Hornet

Otherwise she’ll degrade like phantom

[muted rover]

elaborate

[maiden meteor]

We do a little void fuckery

[worn trout]

i think they are nomadic

[mental roost]

Hallownest should've been left to Millibelle due to her keen business insight

[ancient dock]

They are a dying clan we only see on in HK

[mint furnace]

Hornet is the last being who can produce silk in laces vicinity

[green charm]

There are temples in Hallownest where they live so probably not

[muted rover]

ah

[green charm]

Oh, you haven’t got to act 3 yet, have you

[maiden meteor]

also ancient snail tomb

[ancient dock]

She lives on Silk so as long as she around HK she be living

[mint furnace]

I have an image of lace drinking from an IV hooked up to Hornet lemme find it

[worn trout]

nomadic and in they jump around based on where is interesting to them at the time

[green charm]

True

[green charm]

Ah yea that checks

[ancient dock]

I know about the shamans I’m just saying in general

[vague whale]

Hollow Knight 3: Scamsong

[worn trout]

i think the snails either know a lot about the void or are somehow related to the void society that collapsed

[maiden meteor]

Shamans can open damn portals too

[mint furnace]

Do you guys think all the husks just go back to being normal once radiance dies

Or are they mindless because of no king

[maiden meteor]

they probably just die

[green charm]

Nah, the Pale King’s beacon is still up

[maiden meteor]

they’re like 50% infection juice by the time of game

[mint furnace]

Godseekers say it’s fading though right

[worn trout]

we know they are proficient soul manipulators just like the void society was, and the void areas in silksong specifically have a lot of snail shell mofifs going on. plus just that they know of the void and partially how to use it

[mint furnace]

I could see a timeline where dirtmouth becomes the new capital

[maiden meteor]

Abyss also has shrine triggered by howling wraiths

[mint furnace]

Kinda like a trade town

[green charm]

True

[mental roost]

the abyss is spacious too

[mint furnace]

I like how there was so much theories on the “void society” and then it’s a bunch of random squatters

[worn trout]

i dont think the snails were the only kind of creatures making up the void society but they fs played a part in it

[green charm]

That’s probably what will happen, unless the bugs regain their sentience just fine
Then most will probably be in the city of tears and the surrounding area and that will be the capital again ‘cuz most bugs settle there

[worn trout]

i blame the collapse of the void society on the snails because it just seems like some shit they did

[mint furnace]

Super bone bottom

[muted rover]

How high is the chance for it to be possible for the god home ending where the Hollow Knight escapes as Hornet faces it? Like 50/50? Low? Hard to say?

[vague whale]

Yeah probably

[maiden meteor]

What I think is weird is shade cloak bug having dream protection

[edgy barn]

If pale king could do it why not the ancients?

[maiden meteor]

And Snails have song allowing you to enter memory

[maiden meteor]

question is why would they

[green charm]

Yea that checks

[mint furnace]

Dreams are powerful

[green charm]

The snail shamans most definitely would do that

[mint furnace]

It’s like fey logic

[worn trout]

well the void is an ancient enemy of the radiance makes sense they dont fw dreams

[mint furnace]

Knight gains a weapon to cut the fabric of reality inside a dream

Imagine what you could find in a void guys dream

[worn trout]

the snail shaman files...

[mint furnace]

RELEASE THE SNAIL SHAMAN FILES

[maiden meteor]

Imagine if they kept dream dive mechanic

[ancient dock]

Groal ate a snail shaman?

[maiden meteor]

The snail shaman files are NOT REAL and are a hoax made up by PALE KING

[worn trout]

yup, and good for him

[green charm]

mmmmmmm… escargot…

[worn trout]

Groal ate a snail and gained the ability to shoot vengful spirits thats why hes groal the goat

[zinc pivot]

The corpse is still there though

[green charm]

Probably a Hallownestian Snail Shaman, actually
Seeing as how he uses a variation of Vengeful spirit

[ancient dock]

Screw Goal got him down with poison

[mint furnace]

Hornet is such an asshole for killing him

[maiden meteor]

Btw do you guys think tablets in Chapel describe spell cooking recipes

[mint furnace]

He totally could have taken the citadel with the stilkin

[green charm]

The Stilkin defeat their foes with the power of being mildly annoying to fight

[zinc pivot]

He can’t absorb enough soul faster than silk can summon those giant fuckers in high halls gauntlet

[ancient dock]

I think vengeful spirit is a basic spell

[mint furnace]

Call the pin masters to arms (all 2 of them) and the citadel is cooked

[maiden meteor]

drown Citadel in muckmaggots

[mint furnace]

They can totally guerrilla warfare the citadel

[maiden meteor]

silk problem solved

[zinc pivot]

Sentinels are ready to cut them in half

Not to mention the Choruses

[ancient dock]

Anyone can learn it if they have enough Soul

[worn trout]

does anyone have a screenshot or the exact quote from the bilewater lore tablet that says smthn like "our hate is forever"

[maiden meteor]

Seamstress did seemingly defeat Chorus tho

[mint furnace]

And she’s the weaker of the two

[zinc pivot]

But can they handle
3 choruses

[worn trout]

lets be real gurr was packing up the citadels strongest soldiers they werent all that

[maiden meteor]

Bilewater Pinstress still died so we have Bilewater upscale

[mint furnace]

Yeah I’m sure the 4 bells they throw can defeat a scorching soul blast

[zinc pivot]

His tactic is singling them out and killing them one by one

[ancient dock]

Pretty sure she was a pacifist though

[maiden meteor]

Chorus < Pinstress < Bilewater

[mental roost]

he ain't surviving a squad of grand reeds

[mint furnace]

He’s got backup

[zinc pivot]

Yeah gurr cant fight grand reeds by himself

[worn trout]

gurr is like batman he can do anything with prep time

[zinc pivot]

Yet he got bested by hornet

[mint furnace]

Okay wait we’re forgetting an X factor

second sentinel would probably see groals invasion as a threat

[worn trout]

while gurr had stage 4 lung cancer

[maiden meteor]

Hornet had more prep time

[zinc pivot]

Hornet was defo not prepared for getting trapped by Gurr

[green charm]

That one scene from Avengers endgame but instead of Dr. Strange it’s the Snail Shamans making the portals and instead of a universe’s worth of heroes, it’s:

• A group of like 20 poorly-armed people covered in moss and maggots
• An old woman
• Another old woman
• Shakra (I have nothing snide to say about Shakra)
• Some dude with a cowbell

[ancient dock]

Gurr dies to poison

[green charm]

I’m not kidding those are the only people I imagine being able to fight by act 3

[maiden meteor]

you forgot my goat bell beast

[terse warren]

Id argue the weaker Pinstress is the dead one

[worn trout]

imagine gurr with a pollip pouch thats a GMS level fight right there

[green charm]

Bell Beast is busy raising her children

[mint furnace]

I’m imagining the ultimate showdown rap with all of them

[ancient dock]

She was a pacifist so we don’t know how strong she was

[trim lark]

flick builds a giant statue and then pushes it onto enemies

[green charm]

Truth

[terse warren]

??? Source on her being a pacifist?

[green charm]

Just give him like, 3 days

[maiden meteor]

Seth is also alive in Act 3

[zinc pivot]

Skull tyrant scales above statue

[maiden meteor]

he kinda chills after we defeat him

[green charm]

Oh yea, Seth

[trim lark]

do we even know anything about the dead sister

besides being green

[green charm]

I guess those ladybugs probably know how to throw a pin

[trim lark]

arent they dead

[worn trout]

Seth dont got time for that hes trying to get a new highscore on flea juggle

[mint furnace]

Has asthma, died to citadel smog or something

[green charm]

I dunno I haven’t gotten that far

[trim lark]

oops

[maiden meteor]

What if we summon fleas too

[green charm]

No it’s ok, I came here because I’m alright with being spoiled

[maiden meteor]

make Citadel bugs suffer through jiggle and dodge

[terse warren]

For all we know they ran away

[trim lark]

flea mech

[green charm]

I’m not gonna lie I think a single Reed can defeat every single flea

[keen compass]

Flick really is the cooler menderbug lowkey

[trim lark]

whos flint

[maiden meteor]

Menderbug says 0 lines and died

[keen compass]

Autocorrected lol

[green charm]

Which is saying something because Menderbug is already pretty badass

[ember river]

I'd say Emilitia is closer to North Korea with a cult of personality around her

[worn trout]

i wont stand for this menderbug slander

[green charm]

Ok but he did it in a really badass way

[maiden meteor]

A weapon to surpass Grand Mother Silk

[keen compass]

Flick the Fixer survives act 1 2 and 3, fixes up bone bottom by himself and sets the survivor camp like a boss while still being cheerful

[green charm]

Flick for president of New Pharloom

[ember river]

Where's the big fat flea

[maiden meteor]

Flick gotta be minister of infrastructure

[keen compass]

Flick also built a statue, a bridge, and repaired bone bottom after the skull tyrant atk all on his own

[green charm]

Fair
Sherma for president, then

[maiden meteor]

[green charm]

Sherma is already sort of president of Songclave

[maiden meteor]

Sherma’s new policy is no Whiteward

[keen compass]

Sherma is the president of Songclave yea

[green charm]

Sherma abolishes free healthcare

[zinc pivot]

No whiteward, only hot spa

[trim lark]

they strong enough

[keen compass]

Sherma goes from a devote pilgrim to his own man and a leader over the course of act 1 to 3

[zinc pivot]

Ngl the moment he waddles around the hot tub melted my heart

[maiden meteor]

what horrors beyond bug comprehension do to mf

[green charm]

If Sherma dies in the probable SS DLC, I will fly to Australia and strangle TC with my bare hands

[maiden meteor]

Sherma is too goated to die

[zinc pivot]

And believing in people instead of a false religion

[maiden meteor]

Dude can pass Last Judge no problem

[clever rapids]

what other sinners were there

[trim lark]

do you think conductor ballador would stand against the citadel if they werent rasping for fucking air
and also dead in a3

[trim lark]

probably just people in the citadel

[green charm]

-# Sorry, sickness is a sin?

[trim lark]

yes
this is why whiteward is a thing

[clever rapids]

the last one was referring to the first sinner right

[green charm]

Oh yea

[maiden meteor]

nah

[zinc pivot]

Yeah, you got turned into a lumafly if you do

[green charm]

Wait, Swallowing?

[trim lark]

when they say serve pharloom eternal they mean it

[maiden meteor]

FS is “First of the first” iirc

[terse warren]

Ballador is a wimp who can't stand up for himself

[maiden meteor]

He can’t stand at all tbf

[trim lark]

lad cant even stand 😭

[green charm]

He’s feckin’ dead, dawg

[zinc pivot]

I wonder at the designation of penitents

The First group is possibly the weavers
But what about the Second and go on?

[trim lark]

you then have 2 pathways in 'life'
eternal light fixture, or forced servitude in cogwork bots

[maiden meteor]

Flies committed sin so bad they were condemned for the entire generations

[green charm]

It wasn’t even the flies in general, it was like, 1 guy

[maiden meteor]

I wonder how PK sourced Lumaflies

[ember river]

Probably not

[green charm]

1 guy did something so bad they were condemned for eternity

[trim lark]

i think they just already existed in hallownest
like as regular animals

[zinc pivot]

They are everywhere

[green charm]

Truly

[zinc pivot]

There is a literal dead civilization under hallownest, expect a whole epidemic of lumaflies

[maiden meteor]

Yeah but Citadel had whole “soul extraction device” to get em

[green charm]

THEY WHAT

[ember river]

Those aren't the same as lumaflies

[trim lark]

btw the light-flies are NOT lumaflies

[midnight tree]

Pharloom is so much worse than Hallownest😭

[maiden meteor]

ahh

[ember river]

They turned dying/dead bugs into what's essentially a ghost

[green charm]

No kidding

[zinc pivot]

The similar representation makes them the same vein really