sk-lore

[humble charm]

... no?

[heavy gyro]

It doesn't have a beak

[brisk finch]

This is why it lashes out in etv

[mild hound]

Yeah true with Hornet and Knight we get a skewed perception because they don’t seek any food so we’re bound to see less of it

[zinc pivot]

Probably a bird
Like a hk world equivalent of dragons

[lean temple]

Some sorta weird mythical creature

[mint furnace]

The knight is made of void and void seems to not require food

[humble charm]

The knight definitely doesn't need food

[mint furnace]

Dang, can’t have a quirrel game because he’d have to eat food

[maiden meteor]

Fay thing does have bug body tho

[brisk finch]

Obv Hornet has the flea brew, but can anyone think of anything in HK that could be considered food, that Ghost interacts with?

[maiden meteor]

rancid eggs

[mint furnace]

Cannibals

[mild hound]

It’s okay we just have to rebuild him as a cyborg

[zinc pivot]

Last i check it has two legs and two wings and tail

[lean temple]

Rancid eggs

[humble charm]

Grubs

[neat sandal]

yes.
https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Driftlin#

[zinc pivot]

So bird like

[brisk finch]

:((

[lean temple]

Lifeblood ig can be eaten

[maiden meteor]

Jiji doesn’t seem to mind

[humble charm]

That reminds me

[brisk finch]

Ghost eats lifeblood like jello, new canon

[mild hound]

Realistically many of the enemies we encounter could be used as sustenance

[humble charm]

I saw lifeblood blobs but they didn't do nuffing

[mint furnace]

Lifeblood tries to infect him before witnessing the horrors and instantly dying

[mild hound]

Like a lot of them are just animals

[zinc pivot]

Hiveblood?

[maiden meteor]

does Knight eat through eyeholes or smth

[zinc pivot]

Its honey

[mild hound]

There’s also plants

[humble charm]

... infect him?

[brisk finch]

In Skong, most of them are just background details useful for the first alchemist quest
only 1 iirc works "normally"

[mint furnace]

It’s lifeblood

[brisk finch]

uses the cut flying blob animation from HK lol

[lean temple]

He doesn't know...

[mint furnace]

Oh no

[brisk finch]

Chat does he know

[humble charm]

Do I know what

[maiden meteor]

Lifeblood is evil

[mild hound]

The wormzone incident

[mint furnace]

Let’s just say

[humble charm]

What the HELLY

[mint furnace]

The pale king was right and I take back all slander

[neat sandal]

how?

[mint furnace]

Joni was a environmental terrorist

[heavy gyro]

Tbh lifeblood doesn't seem bad if left alone, the alchemist just tried injecting it everywhere

[humble charm]

Look at its EYES

Just like the Radiance

[maiden meteor]

Joni Kaczynski

[mild hound]

The fact Joni fucking died is impressive with these new revelations on lifeblood

[mint furnace]

I like the idea that radiance just stole the lifeblood blueprints

It’s eerily close

[brisk finch]

I think someone may have putten Joni out of their misery tbh
and then laid them to rest

[mint furnace]

Could also be the reverse

[brisk finch]

Here's more worms btw
After
Yanno

[lean temple]

"Doesn't seem bad" Hornet and Eva literally call it cursed blood

[brisk finch]

these are the survivors

[humble charm]

Okay so can anyone tell me what we know regarding lifeblood.

[mint furnace]

Maybe lifeblood was an attempt to contain the infection

[brisk finch]

Joni probably wouldn't be a heretic in that case

[mint furnace]

It’s uh… reallllly bad now, almost like a drug

[mint furnace]

It was a coverup

Pale king needed a scape goat

[brisk finch]

Lifeblood basically works like an infection, beneficial to an extend in the short term for most people, but with too much exposure you get
well
Plague zombies and physical transformation
it can basically completely replace Hornet's blood if she takes too much, and she's more resilient than most

[mint furnace]

Also seems to affect not just physical, but also mental

Like the radiance

[brisk finch]

Ay, plague zombies is how I refer to the radiance lol

[humble charm]

Images of her all messed up on it please

[mint furnace]

Because Eva will freak the fuck out if you OD on it and talk to her

[brisk finch]

Hornet doesn't physically transform, but she basically gets lifeblood hiveblood

[humble charm]

I see

[brisk finch]

and the dialogue with people In The Know in on par with the curse/witch dialogue

[humble charm]

Can I still do this in Act 3

[mild hound]

We can just chalk that up to half the brain being replaced with blueberry juice and high off the supernatural regeneration tho

[mint furnace]

Also slightly off topic but it’s op as hell in terms of gameplay

It’s hive blood but losing masks doesn’t stop the healing

[humble charm]

I guess I'll go poke my nose into it then

[mint furnace]

So if you’re at 1, you’ll go to full

[heavy gyro]

You can't use fast travel though

[brisk finch]

Before and after

[zinc pivot]

Wait really

[mild hound]

You can just use more syringes

[lean temple]

It seems to be designed for architect crest, because then you won't need to bind to heal and can just focus on repairing tools

[mint furnace]

Yeah, it’s really only applicable with architects and a lot of wealth

I got through coral tower super easily with it

[brisk finch]

See, it's interesting, because the plotline we associate with lifeblood in skong actually seemingly originated as a mossblood and muckblood (separate ideas but both have deprecated text remaining) in the files

The alchemist npc is the same, and he still seems increasingly... brainwashed? mentally altered?

[mint furnace]

It was obviously changed to further extend the pale king known best agenda

[brisk finch]

But Lifeblood Spire is on the oldest skong maps

[mild hound]

Tbf the first time we encounter him he’s already completely disconnected from reality

[brisk finch]

So there was always a lifeblood plan

[brisk finch]

disconnected, but speaking clearly

[sudden pivot]

is there any information on why Groal is able to manipulate soul without having what happened to the soul scholars happen to him?

[brisk finch]

ate a snail

[sudden pivot]

gotchu ty

[brisk finch]

Not kidding, he absorbed the power of the 4th snail shaman

[sudden pivot]

I get it now :3 yeah I see I see that is pretty obvious in hindsight

[brisk finch]

[sudden pivot]

tyyyyyy :D

[mint furnace]

Poor guy

I mean also poor groal, but still

[honest anvil]

delicious escargot

[mild hound]

Yeah but what I mean is lifeblood could be just making you extra stupid rather than actual mind control like the infection or the silk shenanigans

[sudden pivot]

random but on the topic of snail shamans my theory is that the Snail Shaman in the ancestral grounds is super nice and chummy to the Knight cause he wants to be friends with a void creature :33

[brisk finch]

it seems like the 4th snail just wanted allies in the fight against the Citadel, but did not consider the local populace
but also, the snails in general are kind of jerks os it's hard to say how he came across

[brisk finch]

Gimme a mo

[mint furnace]

During the fight I thought groal was a snail shaman lmao

[brisk finch]

"With the Needle Phial... The mossblood from the humid caves at Pharloom’s base...We shall force the Plasmium to respond... We need it... You need it... Bring the mossblood..."

"The mossblood... The Plasmium. It demands that foreign, lesser life... It demands violent coercion...You have done so well, Assistant... For your kind efforts, you may relieve this shell of its rosaries. They are heavy, mortal things... On a transcending shell, they will only weigh.."

"The muckblood... Please, dear Assistant. Plasmium demands its final challenge.Use the Phial... Strike deep. Suck that foul liquid from the swamp things’ shells... For your forever..."

"Goooooood. That’s it Assistant... My dear Assistant.The muckblood... From the swamps beside the sea. Vile, impure... necessary, for great discovery...To become that great discovery.The Needle Phial. Use it. Extract the blood... Bring it. I must ingest that crudest liquid life..."

[mint furnace]

And was leading the stilkin or something

[brisk finch]

Most of this is act 3 dialogue I found

or well, quest 3

(There is no third quest in the final game)

[mild hound]

Snails solution to anything more complex than boiling water seem to be yeeting soul and void at it

[brisk finch]

That is not just dumber

[mint furnace]

Probably found out that the snail shaman didn’t really care about them I’d presume

The other three are ready to sacrifice Hornet in a void suicide bomb so

[lean temple]

The fact that Zylotol says "faith in plasmium" would indicate it just takes over you mentally, like moss prophet

[brisk finch]

Ye I'm willing to give Groal some benefit of the doubt without more data

[sudden pivot]

I thought he was some kind of weird Stilkin/Folly hybrid thing, I thought he was all fucked up and bloated from partial soul misuse but nah he just looks like that I guess :O

[mint furnace]

Groals just goated like that

[sudden pivot]

"My name's Groal, everybody loves me. That's why I live in the maggots."

[mint furnace]

I think hornets the bad guy during bile water

[mild hound]

Hell even the snail shaman in the first game just lock you up in their dungeon to clean it up instead of just asking

[brisk finch]

Absolutely lol
The people of bilewater are pissed to be living in bilewater

[mint furnace]

They’re already in a ruined state due to the citadel and we walk in and kill their leader who had the power to probably take the citadel

[sudden pivot]

okay but have you considered he's just a silly guy tho

[brisk finch]

Snail Shamans overall have like
alright intentions, usually
but they're also arrogant jerks with narrow minds

No one asked Hornet if she foresaw an issue with the plan (even with them assuming she knew about the void part)
She wouldn't have known Lace would be an issue, but they didn't even ask

[mint furnace]

In reality I still blame lace for act 3

[brisk finch]

Buuut, they do die solving their mistake so
Complex characters

[brisk finch]

I blame GMS for being a toxic mom and raising her kids badly

[honest anvil]

lace was responsible for act 3 but also was responsible for hornet surviving the story

[mint furnace]

Yeah, that too

If neither of those things were true then the snail shamans plan woulda worked flawlessly

[brisk finch]

Like, Lace was literally intended to be an eternal child in mind and body
the mind part seems to have failed, but she's still not healthy

[mint furnace]

Well, Hornet might have blown up but

[sudden pivot]

in fairness like 3/7(?) we meet died horrible painful deaths before we ever met them so maybe not entirely fair to judge on the whole, the Ancestral Mound guy didn't seem arrogant to me just a bit of a trickster :3 but yeah the three living ones in Pharloom are all kind of pricks ._.

[mint furnace]

I think she’s just coping

And has a “tee hee~” personality as a result

[brisk finch]

Mount snail is mostly fine after the cleaning

[mint furnace]

Similar to loop if you’ve played ISAT

She still has very coherent thought, I just the whole mind thing is just how she acts

[brisk finch]

Right, how do you cope with knowing your elder sister was discarded like trash for some reason
And your moms previous creations/daughters are the weavers (like tortured Widow and locked up First Sinner)

[mint furnace]

And caretaker just calls her childish because they’re a grumpy old guy

[brisk finch]

And your existence is therefore reliant on you being that child
but also, mom's mostly napping so killing those who get in the way or feed her is effective

[mint furnace]

Yeah, it’s not a very healthy family relationship

So she laughs at it and then tries to kill anyone else before they get ensnared

[sudden pivot]

also from her perspective she literally only exists to facilitate the deliverance of Hornet in the same way Phantom only exists to run the Exhaust Organ

[brisk finch]

GMS obv wins some points with the ending
I just think she's absolutely terrible as a mother in a way that's both human and godly at once

[brisk finch]

Exactly

I love Lace as a character
Whether romance or friendship route, she and Hornet are going to have such a tough time together post ending, but I can't see them splitting up on the spot

It's gonna be hell before it gets better

[buoyant salmon]

is Nuu have some connection to the Hunter in HK?

[humble charm]

wait they died? I thought they just am-scrayed

[mint furnace]

Funnily enough if Hornet just got delivered straight to GMS the game would be over in 10 minutes, if lace broke the seal there instead

GMS got nothing on hornet

[brisk finch]

THey disappear and leave their shells behind, I'm not gonna be shocked if we spot one in a dlc area, but for now I'm assuming they're dead

[mint furnace]

They’re already in a co dependent relationship no matter what

[brisk finch]

[mint furnace]

I think Hornet is one of the last beings that can stop lace from decaying

[brisk finch]

Lace is a vampire and Hornet the only person with blood

[mint furnace]

Lace swappable playable character in an act 4 dlc would be peak

[brisk finch]

I really want a Lace and Phantom sister bossfight

But playable Lace could be fun

[humble charm]

I think Hornet should try to save that one bug on Silken life support

[brisk finch]

I think Hornet needs to track down Pilby

[mint furnace]

That’s on my godseeker dlc wishlist

[brisk finch]

I know I know, Lace 4
But sisters

Also, a friendly spar against Ghost as Shade Lord
or Ghost as tiny Ghost

[mint furnace]

Along with an actual locked in GMS fight, pinmaster duet, coral king buff, and double savage beastly

[mint furnace]

If we do get a godseeker esc dlc lore no longer matters because dream stuff

So we can get whatever is cool

[brisk finch]

Oh nah I meant, from an irl perspective

[mint furnace]

Ah

[brisk finch]

I know some people already feel bad about Lace 3

[mint furnace]

Yeah I don’t want a lace 4

[brisk finch]

But sisters

[humble charm]

GMS?

[mint furnace]

I’d rather just a better GMS fight, like maybe a phase 4 of lace 3

[mint furnace]

Grand mother silk

[brisk finch]

Lace 3 gets a GMS phase
and Phantom gets a Lace phase

[humble charm]

I want a properly done Clover Dancers

[brisk finch]

we all win

[sudden pivot]

I really dont understand how the Citadel bugs managed to remember who they were in the wastes beyond long enough to get to Hallownest and back, the Choral Commandment giving them written directive implies they aren't controlled by Mother Silk when they leave, I assume Hornet's memories are protected by vague Weaver rune magic but I dont think that would really apply to her captors would it? :O

[brisk finch]

Theu're focused, like Quirrel

[mint furnace]

Would be interesting to see the actual second half of the doomed yaoi

[brisk finch]

Only more brainwashed

They have a task, get Weaver offspring
So they go do that

[humble charm]

All of the intelligent bugs you meet are still bound to the Citadel

[mint furnace]

They’re apparently the exact same, so they could just like tint the color palette

[humble charm]

Possibly excepting the Seamstress

[sudden pivot]

didn't Quirrel also loose like 90% of his memory tho? is the implication then that they forgot everything about themselves except that they were meant to get Hornet back to Pharloom? I suppose that makes sense

[mint furnace]

Stilkin are chilling

They’re like the mantises though

[humble charm]

Stilkin
Intelligent

[brisk finch]

Ye, they have no other purpose anyway, so they may as well

[mint furnace]

Yeah?

[humble charm]

The Skarr are more like the mantis

[green yoke]

Godhome boss ||Groal the Good||

||It's from before Bilewater became Bilewater, the good king of his nation, champion of the people||

[mint furnace]

They have language, construction, set traps, concept of soul power

[brisk finch]

I WANT PALE WATER/PURE WATER AREA BACKGROUNDS

[mint furnace]

They are the origins of the PINMASTERS

The strongest pin wielders in the world probably

[humble charm]

Wait, for real?

[mint furnace]

And by extension they can also make flying balloon houses

[mint furnace]

The 3 pinmasters are stilkin

Well, one was, and is now dead

Rest is peace geene

[humble charm]

Wait, three pinmasters?

[mint furnace]

There’s a dead one where you get the wreath

[humble charm]

I only know one skill teacher and that's the Pinmistress

[mint furnace]

And the other is the seamstress

[green yoke]

Pinstress, Seamstress and the dead one. They all have near identical homes

[mint furnace]

Who is like sheo

[brisk finch]

Pinstreass, Seamstress and Unnamed One

Green One

[humble charm]

Wait the SEAMSTRESS is a Pinmaster?

[mint furnace]

All I’m saying don’t diss the stilkin

[brisk finch]

Yes, she mentions Pinstress is her sister

[humble charm]

Huh

[green yoke]

Similar homes, similar look, doesn't care for the citadel, probably incapacitated Fourth Chorus...

[mint furnace]

She put down the pin and took up sewing

[humble charm]

I guess my second playthrough, being far more in depth, is going to find all this stuff

[brisk finch]

Pinstress: Our grand Citadel learnt well from the training of Pinstresses past. Then it went and turned those teachings upon us! Despite our superior skills, our numbers have always been few and their strength overwhelmed.

[sudden pivot]

I feel like they're less proactive and agressive than the Mantis Tribe, like they really just wanted to stop the pollution of the Citadel into their territory and afaik only ever made moves to do that, is there anything suggesting they were explicitly hostile to Pilgrims before they started getting screwed by the Citadel? :O like I get what you're saying I just dont think they're really on that same "Welcome travelers seeking death" kinda timing the Mantis Tribe is on

[green yoke]

If anyone's like the mantises it's the Skarr

[sudden pivot]

very true

[mint furnace]

I’d disagree a little, they’re kinda dying

[brisk finch]

The Skarr are closest, which may be why their area got cut so much in dev

They'd be too similar

[sudden pivot]

well, yknow, prime Skarr, pre-huanting

[brisk finch]

(unlike Verdania and Coral, the ant area still fits visually)

[mint furnace]

Ah, yeah sure

[sudden pivot]

pre GMS in general I guess

[brisk finch]

I don;t think the citadel under GMS orthe Weavers did most of the damage
I think it was the Conductor-era

[green yoke]

Karmelita would get along great with the Mantis Lords I feel. Wanna commission some art of them drinking nectar together

[mint furnace]

Well, stilkin to me are more similar to the tribes we see in hk because they were probably pre citadel and then still there after it

However, unlike pale king, the citadel is not chill with others

[brisk finch]

ye pale king wanted allies, the citadel wanted to rule

[mint furnace]

Also what exactly is the citadel dumping to cause pollution that spans a fourth of the map?

[sudden pivot]

tbf I dunno how chill with others the Pale King is I just think he was more interested in his people's well being and therefore was willing to cut a deal rather than fight prolonged multifront wars, I get what you're saying though

[green yoke]

Smog from machines

[mint furnace]

The pale king knows best

[mint furnace]

Ah, yeah

I guess maggots eat smog

[brisk finch]

He may have been coping and seething, but it did not affect his rule so I think we can consider that he was chill

And I mean, Vespa did not dislike him enough that she wasn't willing to train his kid

[green yoke]

The Underworks is the root origin of like 95% of suffering in Pharloom

[mint furnace]

It’s so funny to me that basically everything PK did was made good from random silksong lore

[brisk finch]

The other 5% is Whiteward

[silent phoenix]

So why did the weavers leave pharloom?
And why were they so panicked, seemingly?

[humble charm]

Grand Mother Silk

[brisk finch]

Literally his onlY mistake ws believing that Hollow Vessels could exist, and what he did with that believe

[silent phoenix]

ok but like what did she do?

[humble charm]

Because she was eating the others' Silk

[brisk finch]

And that was to save the world from a zombie plague

[green yoke]

They didn't like being beholden to GMS. The crime of Apostasy, seemingly just not treating her as a god, was enough to get the First Sinner thrown in time prison forever

[sudden pivot]

it's hilarious the difference between the Underworks bugs and the average Hallownest (not even City of Tears) citizen having had it so well for so ludicrously long they've lost their claws and hard shells via fucking evolution to better accommodate greater comfort and luxury

[mint furnace]

Well, firstly she incarcerated a weaver who found out

That’s not a good sign

[brisk finch]

That part of the timeline is actually pretty messy

Because the Weavers forced GMS to sleep and then fled her, order wise

[mint furnace]

There’s still class issues in HK but it’s so minor compared to SS

[silent phoenix]

Wasnt First Sinner's 'sin' that she 'raged against the silken lie'?

[mint furnace]

In silksong if you get sick you get thrown in an incinerator

[brisk finch]

While GMS, even asleep, could clearly still act a bit
It's not clear why they would flee and let the conductors "greedily" take power of the citadelk

[brisk finch]

Nono, you get silk shoved into you GET BACK TO WORK

[mint furnace]

By the way, when GMS wakes up, does she wake up just because Hornet says GARAMA

[green yoke]

And the thing is, even the most lowly bug in Hallownest still had like, a home and a job

Compare that to the poor sods in the Underworks who have to spend their entire pay on benches and recorded confessionals

[brisk finch]

If you actually die and "refuse" to revive, you're useless and terrible and the doctors hate you

[brisk finch]

My pet theory remains that like
okay so all kidnapped weavers add up to 1/2 of a weaver
Hornet is 1/2 of a weaver
so Hornet entering is the point where GMS is near the power of a full weaver (assuming she absorbed the others)

[mint furnace]

GARAMA is actually just a weaver slur and GMS gets really mad

[sudden pivot]

basically if you were a Hallownest citizen it was awesome if you were anybody else you had to concede to Hallownest turning half your territory into a personal garden for their monarch or them literally dumping all of their capital's shit into their territory, also the maggots I guess it's kind of unclear what their legal status was

[brisk finch]

NO GRAND CHILD OF MINE SHALL SPEAK IN SUCH A MANNER

[green yoke]

Thing is, I'm not sure Hornet would have even been enough for Lace without the Wyrm half.

[mint furnace]

Oh yeah totally

[brisk finch]

I think Hornet was exactly the right person for the job, in the same way Ghost was

[green yoke]

Who cares about the maggots they suck

• everyone

[mint furnace]

I personally believe everyone in the pale king royalty would wipe the floor of pharloom

[brisk finch]

After Bilewater I think PK was also right about the maggots

[sudden pivot]

not to mention the Underworks workers had to watch all their friends die on a harrowing traumatizing probably scarring for life quest to get the privilege of working there

[mint furnace]

What was he not right about

[brisk finch]

Aren't you happy to be Chosen to help the Citadel?

[green yoke]

I wanna know what path Sherma took to avoid the Underworks

[brisk finch]

Vessels being hollow

[mint furnace]

I even defend his vessel plan now, we know it would’ve worked

It’s just well, oops, emotional moment

[brisk finch]

No it wouldn't have, no vessel is hollow, so no hollow knight can exist

Strength of will kept the Radiance at bay

PK's plan worked even a little because his kid liked him, ironically enough

But he was wrong about his initial assumption

[mint furnace]

I hear this a lot but I can’t ever find evidence for it

Is it just the TE event

[brisk finch]

Ghost clearly has a personality
Hornet compares Lace to the vessels offhandedly, as a person

act 3 ending too

[mint furnace]

I think that’s just… the knight being the knight

[brisk finch]

Which is Not Being Hollow

[mint furnace]

Yeah, but it doesn’t speak for all of the vessels

[sudden pivot]

there's nothing suggesting the Radiance was ever imperialistic before a certain Wyrm screwed her over in a preemptive attempt to kill his most powerful foreseen rival... maybe he could have just... not tried to assassinate her via cultural erasure...

[mint furnace]

Okay, even if we say that all vessels have a mind, I’m still gonna defend his action

[brisk finch]

Why would it not? We have no reason to think Ghost is unique in make up, especially not when THK clealy did care about PK

[mint furnace]

Because the knight just straight up kills the radiance

And we know PK couldn’t, so he made a weapon that could, it just wasn’t strong enough

[brisk finch]

He was wrong about the nature of vessels, not for trying to stop the zombie plague

[brisk finch]

"screwed her over" her fans just liked him better

[brisk finch]

I'm saying he was factually wrong, not morally or ethically wrong
That's a different debate

[mint furnace]

PK didn’t mess with radiance at all

[lean temple]

Not because Firat Sinner didn't teat GMS as a god, but because she exposed the false divinity of the Weavere, who were ruling as gods

[sudden pivot]

so much they completely switched languages? also the dev notes on the Moth Tribe suggest Pale King did it purposefully out of a desire to be a sole monarch, those are obviously outdated and not canon I just think it's a decent supplementary piece of evidence for my viewpoint

[mint furnace]

I like to believe it’s just based on the vessels experiences in life (like normal people) and THK and ghost spent too much time around emotion

[sudden pivot]

like obviously for the most part the Moth's chose to assimilate

[brisk finch]

Being so good others like you better is still not a bad thing XD

[mint furnace]

And ghost saves Hornet for that reason, Hornet helps them out on its travels

But yeah it could be inherent

[brisk finch]

I think that';s making the same mistake PK did

I think they have personality differences like anyone
Broken Vessel reaches out

[lean temple]

There is nothing suggesting PK made the Moths turned to him. They did it out of their own volition which is why Seer calls them fickle and that they did "crimes" she has to do penance for

[sudden pivot]

im saying it's pretty clear he promoted the ones who liked him and ensured the ones who didn't were outcast from high society

[mint furnace]

Idk I always say the path of pain scene as showing that THK gained a connection, but not always having it

[lean temple]

How?

[brisk finch]

I think it gained the connection that gave it the strength to withstand the Radiance

[mint furnace]

I overall think his plan would have worked, it just wasn’t feasible to accomplish because you cant ever try and keep emotion from someone, regardless of how you shape them

[mint furnace]

I mean… yeah

That’s how religion works

[sudden pivot]

because people dont just choose to as a culture switch languages because they like a new monarch better than the one before? thats sounds like a very silly proposition to me, rather I would assume the Monarch of the situation used his vast power to elevate the aspects of Moth society most to his advantage

[brisk finch]

The vessels had the same capacity for feeling as anyone else (or well, with possible variance because void), but weren't raised whatsoever
Except for THK
and even then, Ghost can give people flowers
and saves Hornet
Broken Vessel reaches out

[brisk finch]

If your god monarch is a physical entity, you may

[mint furnace]

Exactly, I think it does that because it interacts with hallownest

And learns

[lean temple]

Seer literally calls them fickle and not deserving of being remembered. It was their fault

[brisk finch]

Incl. Broken Vessel
That;'s then 3
Every single one we see
Which makes it clear PK was just wrong

Hornet even makes the comparison with Lace in skong itself

If I put a human baby in a room with nothing, it would also seem pretty empty personality wise

But I did that, and it could still change with time
it says nothing about the baby, inherently

[mint furnace]

I think when knight talked to elder bug, quirrel, hornet, lemm, ogrim, etc, it slowly lost its “hollow”

[sudden pivot]

im not saying it's not their fault im saying why does large swaths of Moth's being fickle absolve the Pale King from using his power to go out of his way to erase any memory of the Radiance which there's nothing to suggest he didn't and for evidence he did, the languages and dev note things

[brisk finch]

I'm saying it was never hollow, just ill socialized

Which is a distinction that I think matters

[mint furnace]

Meh, I think that defeats the message of what the vessels represent, but that’s also just my headcanon

[brisk finch]

Why would Hornet otherwise compare them to Lace?

[mint furnace]

The idea that regardless of origin, empathy and emotion can be expressed

They were both constructs made without thought for those

[sudden pivot]

I think it was "Hollow" in the sense that it had no idea instilled into it yet, or rather what ideas it had were erased in the wastes beyond, but then they become truly sentient after gaining the Void Heart, in my opinion this is evidenced by Nosk's transformation in P5

[brisk finch]

Lace is a person even though she's made of silk
THe Vessels are people even though they're made of void and root eggs and wyrm

[mint furnace]

And thus didn’t have them; the void is a mindless driving force that the pale king forced to have shape

[lean temple]

There's no reason for PK to do so since he has not done it with Unn and the Mosskin nor has he tried to take over the Mantises or the Bees or Deepnest or the Shrumals who kept their language and joined him willingly.

[mint furnace]

Similar to lace with silk

But, despite that, and despite their origin, they developed those qualities

[brisk finch]

They're not just void tho, there's also the babies white lady made

[mint furnace]

Due to those they interact with

[brisk finch]

That's where the baby genocide jokes come from

[mint furnace]

Yeah, being their shape

[brisk finch]

It wasn't just void in bug shape
it was void in bugs

[mint furnace]

They’re called vessels for that reason

[brisk finch]

By PK

Who was wrong

[mint furnace]

I do not think he was wrong, he was just wrong to assume it’s possible

We’re going in circles at this point though, I think we’ve both given our opinions

[brisk finch]

They're not "human", but they're still people
Just ill socialized and never given a chance
Because there was a zombie plague and dad was trying to save the kingdom

PK was wrong about his assumption he could ever make a Hollow Knight

But he wasn't wrong to try anything at all to stop the Radiance

And he wasn't wrong that his kids were capable, but that's, I think, Because he cared too much about THK

[mint furnace]

I agree with this, I just think it’s weird for them to start as flawed

[sudden pivot]

he literally tried to do imperial expansion into Deepnest territory, as for all the other factions you mentioned it's better for him to negotiate with them for the sake of his people not having to fight prolonged multi-front wars, not to mention he's getting really really fucking good deals because everyone knows if he wanted to conquer them he could, he literally gets to shovel his capital's shit into the Mantis Tribe and Shroomal's territories they are practically his vassals

[mint furnace]

Well flawed from PKs mind

It makes more sense to me that they develop their connections, causing them to change and develop as beings

[brisk finch]

I genuinely don't think he realized until, maybe, the PoP cutscene timeline

And by then it was much too late

[balmy veldt]

If there is one idea to prove he isnt hollow, then this is shown in the voidheart ~cutscene. It was propably traumatic enough to be burried deep, or this is the point that tge knight itself realised it

[knotty dome]

Has anyone pieced tg what might the steel masters deal are?

[brisk finch]

He has a baseline assumption about how the void works and ran with it
he also tried soul stuff initially before cutting off the soul masters for their human experiments
the vessels aren't the only failed plan

[knotty dome]

Like why observe lands and their connection with void

[mint furnace]

As it’s said he experimented with something he doesn’t know about

And while he thought it unthinkable, it unknowingly to him can change

If they started that way, i think it would mess with the idea of void

[brisk finch]

It's why I don't think it's weird the vessels weren't "right" from the start
he couldn't have initially known his assumptions were off, and by the time he could've, it was too late anyway and he had to go on

[mint furnace]

Anyways, yeah we don’t know

They seem cut and probably dlc content

[lean temple]

Ah yes, deepnest who are openly hostile to their own neighbors. If anything the PK was trading with them for silk at one point and Herrah even let the stag station be built and didn't object. Don't forget that deepnest is full of deadly predators who could've just prevented the tram from being built even if Herrah gave the greenlight, it seems the leaders were trying to form closer relations. He still gave herrah a child and didn't force her into things. If he was already doing imperial expansion into her territory he wouldn't need to agree to her conditions.

[sudden pivot]

aren't Pale Beings kind of implied to be inherently tied to soul? including PK what with the messages in the King's Pass?

[brisk finch]

They still hatched from eggs, not the void
Their creation is not natural
Silk isn't sentient, but Lace has always been

[dull vine]

Maybe they’re trying to protect people from void? Like reverse snail shamans? Instead of using it, they stopping it.

There’s one quest exclusive to steel soul where someone tries to bring some void to life with a ritual. This could be a result of the bug being curious about what they’re even stopping, and it also makes sense why Zi said they’d be killed, once they touch the void they can’t go back or sm like that.

[mint furnace]

No, but I feel like it’s implied the void was injected into husks

[brisk finch]

Sort of, but that's not what I'm talking about
I'm talking about how the CoT SOUL stuff is a result from an experiment to stop the Radiance
But PK cut them off for experimenting on bugs and that's why SouL Master is so mad

[knotty dome]

Hopefully dlc content since tc have been teasing em since first game

[mint furnace]

Fairly certain it has to be because wasn’t that one guy a backer character

[brisk finch]

But that means they were never pure void
That was, if anything, kind of the point
Pure void couldn't be "shaped" to begin with, but by giving it shape they were never gonna be hollow

[brisk finch]

One steel character is a backer character, so likely

Whoop, double ping

[mint furnace]

Again I think we’re going in circles at this point

[knotty dome]

I mean like it’s been implied they’re void attuned as dialogue with jinn whole having void heart makes jinn compare the knight to the masters.

[knotty dome]

Yeah they’re obligated to add backer stuff yes?

[brisk finch]

Yeah, I think so
We don't even disagree on the conclusion, I think. Just the road to it

[mint furnace]

I just think they started hollow and instantly stopped because you can’t be once you experience thought from others

[dire lynx]

PK was always against the soul sanctum
"In my dreams I could see it. The Kingdom's salvation, the cure for the plague... the answer was in the soul that animates our bodies.
But the King... why?! He opposed everything I did..."

[mint furnace]

Yeah

I was hoping steel assassins would be a random encounter in steel soul that would kick your ass 30 hours into a run, oh well

[brisk finch]

I thought PK started it and then cut it off when it got too bad
is that that the only quote?

[dull vine]

It makes sense. The steel masters, being made or attuned to void knows its properties. The shamans are also void (I think), so it’s like the masters believe that void must be vanquished while the shamans believe it must be harnessed

[knotty dome]

Why people complaining abt the exclusion of sharpe then if it’s guaranteed. We waited 7 years whats another few years

[knotty dome]

Tbf people would 100% complain

[brisk finch]

It's because Silksong has now released, so people are curious why the only unaccounted for trailer element is missing

[humble charm]

Also I'd like to point something out.

[brisk finch]

Sharpe was shown during the Hornet dlc phase

[humble charm]

Lace is uhhh... Shockingly similar to Ghost

[mint furnace]

One thing I’ve learned on the internet, and especially here, is people will complain about anything

[sudden pivot]

im not really sure where you're getting the "Herrah let it be built" part I am not aware of anything implying that, sure it could have been predators who killed them but then why were the corpses not eaten? why were the trams themselves destroyed? imo its pretty clear the implication is meant to be the tram workers were killed by the bugs of Beast's Den, of course different perspectives are absolutely valid :3

[mint furnace]

We just had a conversation about that lel

[dire lynx]

i feel the implications of the quote are quite obviously that the radiance planted a false idea in the mind of the soul master, and clearly the PK was against it.

[humble charm]

Oh, I missed it

I am tired and going to bed now

[brisk finch]

Fair enough, willing to drop that

[mint furnace]

Sleep well

[brisk finch]

good night!

[mint furnace]

I need to get going too, bai

[sudden pivot]

nini :3

[mint furnace]

It’s still real!!

[sudden pivot]

dawww bybye sleep well ^^

[lean temple]

The fact that Herrah was reigning when the stag station was built and that she didn't object or order it's removal, and the fact that there are signs of trade with PK and at least the Weavers for silk.

And ofc Hallownest using spider silk paper, which implies there was cooperation at least with Herrah and the Weavers.

[brisk finch]

I think Deepnest always had a clear split between, well, beasts (more mindless) and bugs (incl. Weavers)
Maybe the beasts just didn't listen to Herrah properly, as she was "common"

[sudden pivot]

ooop sorry I am a bit tired (is 4 am for me ;-;) I didnt catch it being about the Stag Station, true but that Stag Station was barely ever used, the Knight opening it was the first time the Old Stag had ever even known it existed, so it couldn't have been a stop used by common bugs, as for the Weaver silk thats only found in the Palace Grounds I think (do correct me if im wrong, im talking about the big Silk Spool background objects) so it was just for the Pale King and can be assumed to only have started after the bargin for Hornet's birth, as for the parchment I feel like it's a big strange to assume they used what we now know is explicitly extremely valuable and magical silk for all of their paper, especially when that Silk is intrinsically tied to the power of Soul which PK did not want common bugs interacting with in it's raw form

[brisk finch]

(beast and bug arent in game language here)

[sudden pivot]

they literally worship her..

[brisk finch]

This border bounds the twisting, scratching things. Their dead sire, once of honoured caste. Their sealed mother, but the common beast."

[lean temple]

Stalking devouts do, but it's possible she couldn't control things like Nosk and garpedes and dirtcarvers

[sudden pivot]

yeah? im not saying she wasnt a common bug, sorry I should have been more specific

[brisk finch]

Could you quote the worship part, pre dreamer?

I may have forgotten

[lean temple]

Lemm says outright that hallownest used spider silk, which could've been from the non magical kind if there were multiple spider tribes. Either way acquiring enough for parchment requires cooperation with some part of deepnest

[sudden pivot]

all the bugs of Beast's Den do since Deephunters can be reasonably assumed to grow up into Devouts, and the Dirtcarvers and Garpedes are animals

[sudden pivot]

you cant even make parchment with silk can you? its for textiles

[sudden pivot]

sryy didnt see this, Stalking Devouts Journal entry, I can get it if you want

[lean temple]

"This journal is of traditional stone type. Text endures well upon it.
In its declining age, this city switched from stone to parchment woven of spider's silk.
It's a small tragedy, but the moisture in these towers has rendered most of those texts illegible."

Silk spools also seen in PK's workshop which I assume were the magical kind

[sudden pivot]

ohhh wow thank you!!! :D interesting, then yeah evidently there must have been trade, very good point! I would then, maintaining the position that Herrah ordered the destruction of the Failed Tramway and only traded Silk with Hallownest through offical royal channels, fall back on my previous argument of it being the product of negotiation same as the other factions

[edgy barn]

Deephunters are animals too. You can tell for their dream nail dialogue

[lean temple]

Also the tram at the bottom of deepnest is fine. It's even connected with the one in ancient basin which leads to the palace. Connecting a place with the royal palace signifies trust. The stag station obviously existed in Herrah's reign, but I also think the trams could've been built after. Perhaps after Herrah became a Dreamer and thus couldn't keep deepnest in check, or around when the Radiance started reawakening which would've doomed the workers.

[sudden pivot]

is it possible Deepnest bugs in general are on the line? and the Hunters and more animalistic due to immaturity? the Devouts have enough intelligence to worship and serve, and the most intelligent Deepnest bug we meet is Midwife who's intelligence ultimately fails to her animalistic impulses

[zinc pivot]

Based on the commoner bugs found around deep nest west side it can be assumed traveling to deep nest used to be more common

[lean temple]

The fact that the top most tram is also literally completely separate from any other tram line indicates it was the first in a new line which couldn't be built in time

[sudden pivot]

I could see the bottom right Tram existing for the same reason as the Stag, though probably built much much later, I would guess the Stag was maybe for sanctioned merchants to make normal Silk trades while the tram was for delivering Weaver's Silk to the White Palace

[knotty dome]

I love how groal’s vengeful spirit attack is explained lore wise without a single word spoken

[zinc pivot]

No voice to scream suffering

[sudden pivot]

the Dreamnail dialogue of the corpses confirms it was due to hostility not time constraint

[normal plank]

insane theory: the game is abt bugs

[brisk finch]

Mods??

[edgy barn]

On this topic, you can see silk spools in both the Distant Village stag station and the Hidden Station (the one in Palace's Grounds) both stations were unknown to the old stag and those same silk spools can be found in the Weaver's Den and PK's workshop

[brisk finch]

They may have had a specific trusted (group of) stags

[lean temple]

Yes, I meant couldn't be built in time before deepnesters went violent

Thinking about it I also have no clue what the hell the failed could've even connected to, like what was even its purpose

[ebon silo]

I was there I took the photo when the builders built the stag station in deepnest I even took a photo

[sudden pivot]

cough imperalism cough

I suppose colonialism would be more accurate

[lean temple]

Theoretically it would extend into fungal core which makes no sense at all

[edgy barn]

The environmental storytelling seems pretty obvious to me: Silk was being secretly exported from the Weaver's Den to White Palace through secret stag stations so that PK might use it in the vessel project

[ebon silo]

I really don't think silk was in the vessel project but idk I just woke up

[sudden pivot]

I think at some point he was probably hoping to chunk part of Herrah's territory like he did to the Mosskin and got swiftly rejected

[lean temple]

Also Deepnest launched an attack on the mantises for seemingly no reason. The pact made between them and the King states that they would help defend against deepnest attacks.

[coral wren]

Are pale beings the only non homosexuals

[zinc pivot]

Maybe he was doing the us tactic of slowly etching in his i fluence

[edgy barn]

We see a sketch of the Seal of Binding in the weaver's den, they were definetly involved in some way.

[ebon silo]

This was probably after the infection and they suddenly attacked

[zinc pivot]

But weavers know better

[sudden pivot]

the bugs we see charging the Mantis gates are all animalistic Dirt Carvers, the only suggestion of tensions between Beast's Den and any Fungal Wastes factions is the Shroomals stating they "will not make peace" with them

[lean temple]

Yeah it's like the exact same seal

[lean temple]

Exactly, which is why I believe they also attacked the failed tram

[sudden pivot]

god imagine if HK had Silksong budget, being able to see the Mantis's hold off a constant horde of beasts outside the village

[ebon silo]

weavers are pretty territorial and justified because of their suffering

[brisk finch]

Suffering and arrogance

The Weavers as a faction are pretty complex

Used to being treated as deities, but with toxic mom to hold their everything over their heads

[teal drift]

Weavers suck.

[brisk finch]

Weavers are people

[edgy barn]

Yeah I really liked seeing enemies attack each other in silksong

[lean temple]

And then they became refugees in the darkest deepest place in Hallownest

[sudden pivot]

but again why would they destroy the infrastructure and leave the corpses? I guess "This nest rejects us..." could be taken to mean predation but to me it reads a lot more as "fuck off, signed Beast's Den"

[brisk finch]

Comf

[ebon silo]

created by the GMS she lied and weavers started to leave and make the citadel to contain GMS until the haunting happened and it was over from then on hell they hate pale beings or any higher beings so much they even said to hornet show us more weaver than wyrm

[teal drift]

No one has shown me decisive evidence weavers had legitimate grievances against GMS besides their own hunger for power. The most we get is that GMS told them they were more divine than they actually were.

[brisk finch]

See, that's not right tho
The Conductors ruled for a while not under GMS

The Citadel "worked" for a while after the Weavers

[ebon silo]

The citadel was made by the weavers right..?

[brisk finch]

That's the confusing bit of the timeline
What did GMS do to suddenly be a threat to the weavers (so they leave) without actually harming Citadel operations

[zinc pivot]

Yes, but weavers fled and conductors gotta clean up after them

[lean temple]

It's possible they did eat some of them. Though I don't think Herrah would provoke the PK in such a manner. A simple rejection of the whole idea would've been better, if she even was awake when the tram incident happened.

[brisk finch]

The original Citadel was made by Weavers, but the Conductors ruled for a while after they left

[ebon silo]

Oh I'm still kinda right tho I just didn't finish it

I forgot the conductors still exist

Still exist? I meant is a thing

[brisk finch]

That's what makes it so messy
logically, anything that makes the weavers flee should harshly impact the citadel under the conductors... but it didn't

The haunting happened way after that

[sudden pivot]

my understanding was that the Citadel was created and lead to it's peak under GMS then the Weaver's imprisoned her and had to use the caste system she made to keep the music that kept her asleep going, and also they just happened to make themselves icons of worship in the mean time im sure that wasn't on purpose or anything

[lean temple]

Conductor Ballador states the Weavers devised the Citadel to cage GMS

[brisk finch]

Yes, which is the messy bit

[sudden pivot]

yeah thats the "keep the music going part"

[brisk finch]

GMS remained caged after they left, if a tiny bit awake

[sudden pivot]

like they helped her build it with her not knowing

[brisk finch]

So why did they leave

[sudden pivot]

that it would be her tomb

[edgy barn]

ngl I'm starting to get the idea that maybe the whole weavers>conductors>gms transfer of power was a relatively late change and that GMS was originally intended to have always been in charge. It would explain so much of these little gaps and inconsitencies.

[rough siren]

is gms god?

[sudden pivot]

she's a god

[dire lynx]

shes a pale being

[ebon silo]

Well if your servants to a god and you kinda don't like it and finally have a chance to run away because she's sleeping soooo

[south dove]

How did he die

[brisk finch]

Reminder that the big bell benches originally had seals of binding on them

[ebon silo]

Betrayal or seppuku maybe

[lean temple]

Oh wait I think I'm thinking of Mask Maker

[knotty dome]

Skarrs killed him

[brisk finch]

They were worshipped tho, ruling caste
and they fled back after the radiance showed her face

[zinc pivot]

Inside conflict

Skarrs have many different tribe

[ebon silo]

After the radiance???? When was this

[sudden pivot]

I like to imagine they felt guilty because they knew they ruled from a throne of lies

[brisk finch]

Hollow Knight

That's why the Weavers are gone
Some died, some fled back "home"

[south dove]

Does he come back in act 3?

I mean by corrupted

[sudden pivot]

if you go to Weaver's Den in deepnest they're fleeing for their homeland, which we now know to be Pharloom

[brisk finch]

That's a more sympathetic reason

[lean temple]

Also interesting
"H: Your chambers are surely grand, sir bug, but it is plain to see you are no sovereign here.
B: Is our state so bare, pilgrim?... "By the will of the Conductors," we once boomed, and this Citadel shook at our decree.
But the words... How hollow they echoed. The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown.
Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise."

[ebon silo]

I guess some of the weavers must've not know why they fled in the beginning they must've just followed the leader at the time

[zinc pivot]

Nah he ded ded
Two of his fellow tribesman show up though , one as a boss

And one by the far field target practice

[brisk finch]

It's hard to say, considering there can';t be that many second gen weavers
And I can't see many first genners just... not knowing

In fact, we don't hear about any "normal" second gen weaver
Everyone's either mixed or Eva

[brisk finch]

I love the target practice interaction so much

[zinc pivot]

Makes me feel bad for the conductor
He was a figurehead but genuinely had some goodwill

[sudden pivot]

my interpretation: GMS starts the nation of the Chior, evolves the Pharlids into the Weavers and they help her establish her kingdom, seeing how brutal her rule is to all who would oppose her they devise a plan to trap her, they build the Citadel telling her it's her grand capital, then use the song generated by the populace to entrance her to sleep, a task which is taken over by the Condctors eventually

[lean temple]

The way Ballador says it was yoke not crown, says that the Weavers made the Conductors do their work for them.

[edgy barn]

No? All the Skarr we see still serve Karmelita (other than Gurr), and the Mottled Skarr's design and needolin dialogue imply that he had been a Last Claw (Karmelita's bodyguards you fight in the pre-boss gauntlet), the reason he was killed is that he was still sane while the others are under the Haunting

[ebon silo]

What's crazy too is that who tf is herrah and why is bro different than the rest? Maybe theory time she was the one who kinda lead the weavers into fleeing or so maybe @brisk finch

[brisk finch]

THis is mainly what i agree with, but it also runs into the issue of
What did GMS do to make them flee, and why did it not impact anyone until recently-ish (with the haunting)

[brisk finch]

I do feel like the Weavers must've liked Herrah (or respected or whatever) for her to rise to a position of power in their new home

Actually, I may have an answer to my questions, it just may be weak

[zinc pivot]

Doesn’t explain the mottled skarr scout though

[brisk finch]

Phantom and Lace were made while GMS was already slumbering (because deity)
And that is what scared them off

It wouldn't "hurt" anyone and the Conductors could keep running the place
but the Weavers would have strong motive to gtfo

Because now mama can create more life

[zinc pivot]

Still standing by that mottled skarr is another group of skarr that got banished after karmelita diminished, and had to go into hiding

[sudden pivot]

well if the bugs with strands of her Silk within them from experiments their ancestors performed on themselves generations ago are such easy prey for her even in her half-waking state, you can imagine how vulnerable the Weaver's must have felt at any possibility of her slumber being interrupted at all

[lean temple]

And they don't know when mama will awake and have revenge over being sleep spelled

[brisk finch]

Right, but I feel like there must've been a catalyst of some kind for so many to flee

But new babies? ye that would do it

First Sinner could have called it out first and been punished for it, but she was right

[sudden pivot]

that makes sense, especially since Lace prowled around the Citadel

[brisk finch]

They shot the messenger

Actually, in the absence of more evidence, I kind of like this order of events

[knotty dome]

What were the roles of the conductors? The architects were engineers, technicians, innovators and builders while vaultkeepers were librarians in a way so what were conductors role in the citadel

[lean temple]

The leaders

[brisk finch]

I'd say something like managers
Keeping everything running

That's why they could take over so smoothly

[buoyant salmon]

imo the Steel God might be the worst god ever in HK universe

[sudden pivot]

they maintained the songs of the Citadel and had ultimate authority, their purpose was to keep the music continuing eternal since thats what keeps Mother Silk asleep

[knotty dome]

Steel god?

[lean temple]

No evidence of a god. We have the Masters, plural.

[shell jewel]

Guys I see that this was datamined. How do you guys theorize this ending went? what happened and what do you guys think can be the process to obtain this ending had it been left in the game?
https://youtu.be/0VOUbW_gE-Q?si=2fa2ZNgW8h8RPC8g

[knotty dome]

Oh that’s why we get that harp thing from them

[edgy barn]

btw what exactly did you mean by this

[buoyant salmon]

no evidence but every kingdom has a god, there is no shot that Steel Kingdom is godless

[brisk finch]

The in game text is just defeating GMS
Seems like this could've happened if you didn't Bind her

[ebon silo]

And her design tho maybe like what it's some crackpot theory but maybe herrah was the first ever weaver and like at some point she kinda didn't like how things was going questioned her and like got ehr head crushed and is the reason she weavers a mask instead or something

[knotty dome]

The conductors seem so chill, conductor balador talked to us with humility even though he thought we were a simple pilgirm

[brisk finch]

Some things were originally more, well, "magical" in nature

[buoyant salmon]

what kind of bug is he btw? Weaver too?

[lean temple]

The Masters theoretically have power over higher beings, so they're not gods, they're even worse.

[brisk finch]

Want to add: All weavers are masked. Their heads aren't round, check Widow

[shell jewel]

makes sense ig

[brisk finch]

Their bodies are still distinct from Herrah tho

[sudden pivot]

I really hope we get a Land of Stroms DLC, the idea of a pair of gods purposefully abandoning their devoted worshippers is just so unique from any other plotline in the series

[buoyant salmon]

where did they say this

[knotty dome]

The masters are basically more than enough to be gods, they are probably on par with the knight with the void unification thing as jinn compared the knight to the masters after getting void heart. They also some kind of farsight and are more than just bugs

[knotty dome]

Normal just massive bug. Normal bugs can get pretty big like the choir clappers

[buoyant salmon]

Human prob /j

[lean temple]

"Pale It... You would reject the role? Are you not tamed, bound, by Masters?... You would know... obedience is essential.
Recall, the fate of those who defy... Even you higher... Especially you higher...
...Compression... We have suffered it. We would never wish it upon another." -Steel Seer Zi

[ebon silo]

Oh hmm how about this she was the first one created and first one to take off the weaver mask to be something else and the weavers followed and kinda the reason she also got another mask??

Goofy ahh theory but idk

[sudden pivot]

can I just say Widow is the realest mother fucker in the series, stuck with GMS the whole way through even when the other Weavers were sticking pins through her spine

[knotty dome]

We really need more steel related stuff. We can’t wait for another steel soul mode of the 3rd game for more lore

[buoyant salmon]

maybe the Masters are Wyrms? Because those bug that floating in White Palace has the same steel shell

[brisk finch]

Ending B
Strung to Serve
Defeat Grand Mother Silk

[buoyant salmon]

Wyrm horns

[brisk finch]

(This is the stuff for the cut ending video btw)

[lean temple]

Also looks like GMS halo horns

[brisk finch]

Also reminds me of the uh
Old Hunter Crest design

[buoyant salmon]

yeah they kinda fused into one being

[knotty dome]

Steel shells? You mean the void flies with white carapace? Also they’re pale king creations not necessarily wyrm exclusive

[ebon silo]

Do you think hornets body got taken. Because it was wyrm and GMS kinda got a little stronger

[lean temple]

We don't know anything for now, but maybe.

[ebon silo]

"Kinda"

[ebon silo]

Is that you pale king

[lean temple]

We really do

[brisk finch]

I think it may have been the fate of the captures mixed weavers before Hornet

[buoyant salmon]

yes

but what I mean is, the other unused Steel enemies have the same shell design, so we can assume that this is the signature design of the Wyrm kingdom

[flint wadi]

reverse weaver quern huh

[brisk finch]

the name is Crest__0005_hunter_old

[lean temple]

I think the Masters are shaping up to be the main antagonists of the HK franchise as a whole

[buoyant salmon]

Yeah TC for some reason remove all the Pale King related stuff

[ebon silo]

I feel like the cut ending is the same for weaver queen but when team cherry made it kinda made no sense or idk

[buoyant salmon]

sus

[knotty dome]

There is no wyrm kingdom tho they’re just god like beings that just exist. We don’t have anything to assume that they’re in a kingdom or tribe

[brisk finch]

it's ending B, which suggests Weaver Queen already had a concept

But it was likely cut for redundancy

[brisk finch]

He haunts the narrative

[lean temple]

I think this was if you didn't bind GMS in time

[buoyant salmon]

we don't know yet

the place where Delicate Flower was from is assumed to be the birthplace of those Pale Being

[sudden pivot]

yeah like I think it was just meant to be a "bad end" but then they realized Weaver Queen is already a bad end

[brisk finch]

Based on the descriptoin, ye equivelant to something like sealed silbings

[knotty dome]

I mean they haven’t done anything in the 1st or 2nd game at all other than their respective missions like hornet has caused more deaths than them in the silksong

[buoyant salmon]

or, it could be related to that Wyrm horned crest

like the cursed one

[ebon silo]

I guess people must've assumed in ending B made hornet became another god of sort other than the weaver queen and it would be weird for ending A or something like that

[brisk finch]

Yeah I think it was something that just didn't feel fully right when looking at the full picture

[lean temple]

The fact they watch over many kingdoms, have many steel bugs under them, are connected with void somehow, and apparently can "compress" higher beings seems very alarming in the larger scheme of things.

[brisk finch]

Even if it makes sense in isolation

[knotty dome]

Zymir is pale being then? Since it said somewhere she brought it from her homeland and she was pulling that stuff out of her ass

[buoyant salmon]

I prefer "Pale Weaver Mother" as a name for Hornet

[buoyant salmon]

yes but she not a god per se, like not all Steel being is a god like Masters

[sudden pivot]

also worth noting they've been compressed themselves so either they do it to each other or it's not an ability exclusive to them

[lean temple]

Steel Seer Zi was compressed. She's not a master

[sudden pivot]

ohhh sorry misunderstood :O

[dire lynx]

Ze'mer*

[knotty dome]

Maybe they’re just fully attuned to void since it seems like void is the strongest power as well as Hornet not knowing any character that can control void. So the masters would be very good shock to her

[buoyant salmon]

Steel Masters are fodder

All hail whoever the Mushroom Man is herald to

[sudden pivot]

that could make sense to me, my understand is that Pale beings are like shiny pokemon (see Palestag)

[lean temple]

Well Hornet knows about their existence, and their "long gaze". Though idk if she knows their true nature

[knotty dome]

But pale beings are all godlike tho. Ze’mer is not

[buoyant salmon]

we don't know how many non-god pale creature

[brisk finch]

I can't see the PK having another god work under him as a Knight

[sudden pivot]

neither is the Palestag thats why I mentioned it ^^;

[buoyant salmon]

Pale is white

Delicate flower is WHITE

[brisk finch]

"Pale Being" is on par with "Higher Being"
"Pale" does not equal "Pale Being"

[knotty dome]

Yeah since void can 100% be controlled yet hornet doesn’t know that

[brisk finch]

controlled by void tho

[lean temple]

If Ze'mer was a PB it would've been explicitly stated. Also Palestag might be created from a Pale being or could just be fully mythical and never actually existed.

[brisk finch]

You can push it back a bit but full control for non void just doesn't seem possible based on true end's everbloom showcase

[knotty dome]

Wdym? Like she said that no one can control void

[brisk finch]

void controlling itself doesn't contradict that

[buoyant salmon]

tbh she like all other Knight is so mysterious, that we barely know anything about them

[static prism]

Rank these from most to least powerful

Pale being
Higher Being
Great One
Gorb
Zote

[brisk finch]

If I say no one controls me, does that imply I don't control me?

[knotty dome]

Yeah but I meant other beings

[buoyant salmon]

Shade Lord literally called God of Gods

[brisk finch]

Gorb
Zote
Pale/Higher being
Great one is a general title

[brisk finch]

That's not contradicted

Only void is shown to 100% control the void

[knotty dome]

By the #1 god glazer no less

[buoyant salmon]

i mean she did summon most gods to her Dream

and make Radiance much stronger

[knotty dome]

Oh yes it slipped my mind the only character we see that unified and controlled void was void themselves mb

[brisk finch]

lmao fair enough, there's so much to take into account

[sudden pivot]

see I just dont agree with the first half of this, there's no reason to exclude Palestag from Pale Being status other than the fact it contradicts this logic

[lean temple]

Also the fact that Hornet defied the Masters by letting Sula go is perfect set up for them sending the Steel Assassins after her

[buoyant salmon]

btw the lore tablet in the SS Abyss, void given form is also mentioned

[knotty dome]

But I am just so desperate for steel related lore like we have next to no idea what’s the deal with them and why can jiji and sula actually summon void

[lean temple]

As Void tendrils

[brisk finch]

We see the term "pale" be used quite often for seemingly random things like pale oil and pale ore

That's my reasoning

[sudden pivot]

other than I guess maybe you could make the argument it might not have ever been real

[buoyant salmon]

Zi kinda said that they are thinking about Hornet logic, since I think none of the Steel creature could think properly

[brisk finch]

I think it's less summon (cause it's in the world already outside of the abyss) and more uh
call?

[sudden pivot]

I dont think those are random since they only appear in the Kingdom's of Pale Being's but regardless the Palestag is a literal living being who has magic powers for no other explicable reason other than being Pale, it's not comparable

[lean temple]

True. Which I think the Masters definitely did not like

[buoyant salmon]

Zi's having a death flag 🥀

[knotty dome]

I’m just going off what hornet said but the masters are 100% void wielders or more so have something to do with it

[brisk finch]

I don't think it's literally random, but I do think it points to just the term pale not being on par with being called a pale being
The term higher being is used exactly 1 time in skong's script, in reference to GMS, which otherwise would have some very interesting implications

[static prism]

Wasn't Pale ore said to have some "hidden power" related to the pale beings by Ari or William once? Pale oil probably falls under the same thing

[brisk finch]

In general, yes
Summoned Saviour is literally summined

[lean temple]

A DLC in the Steel city would be great, but I feel that be its own huge area if not game. Imagine fighting one of the Steel Masters and the ending is getting compressed.

[brisk finch]

pale oil is slug juice

[buoyant salmon]

also did Jinn killed Confessor Jiji

[knotty dome]

No they’re friends

[sudden pivot]

could the masters being high caste members of the ancient civilization? if we are to assume they were world spanning are there wasn't just two different ones?

[lean temple]

Jiji is the vassal of Jinn, like Sula is the vassal of Zi

[sudden pivot]

they basically call the slug holy

[buoyant salmon]

I see

[lean temple]

I thought about this once tbh

[brisk finch]

sylphean =/= holy

and the word "pale" isn't used at all

[knotty dome]

Other than the name

[brisk finch]

Just like the ore

like, the full description is

Bile gland of a rare sylphean slug. Talented pinmasters can use the glistening liquid within to improve a blade's sharpness.

[buoyant salmon]

also if Zi is a seer, than what role is Jinn?

[brisk finch]

none of this implies godliness

It implies that it's a high quality material

[knotty dome]

I don’t think the steels were that fleshed out yet so they just called him steel soul jinn

[brisk finch]

That happens to look white-ish, and society associates very good white stuff with pale stuff in HK land, so it's Pale go buy my stuff

[lean temple]

She's made to be a trader. Though I believe TC tweaked the naming convention to actually include roles in SS

[buoyant salmon]

She a reaper confirmed /j

[static prism]

Sleeping wizard

[buoyant salmon]

both Jinn and Zi sleep so

[lean temple]

Maybe "Steel Trader Jinn" or something like that

[knotty dome]

Imo I don’t rlly think what he did was for his masters benefit. He just wanted to get eggs for jiji and reduce the geo load

[buoyant salmon]

also ik this is cut content, but their design scream void wearing armor

[sudden pivot]

the point is the slug is being associated with ethereal and otherworldly things, more importantly the word "Pale" is again being associated with an ethereal, otherwordly thing

[knotty dome]

They’re coming back 100% in the future

[lean temple]

She*
They were both sent to Hallownest for a reason. We don't know what it is but the Masters definitely have something going on behind the scenes

[brisk finch]

Ethereal and otherworldy=/=godly

[buoyant salmon]

I hope either Wyrm dlc, lifeblood dlc, mushroom dlc or steel dlc

[brisk finch]

I know I seem pedantic, I'm not tryng to be for no reason

[knotty dome]

The steels have genders’ I thought they were automatons

[sudden pivot]

yes I know thats not the point I just made

[stone raptor]

i want to see a lifeblood origin higher being

[static prism]

Annoying they cut that guy, he looked awesome, i waited in Act 3 for him to be somewhere

[lean temple]

Yeah. Both Jinn and Zi are female. They do look robotic, but now I think that might be a result of compression.

[buoyant salmon]

or prob another Nightmare arc

[sudden pivot]

I bet the last DLC will be one to do with the Masters that leaves on a massive cliffhanger just like Godhome

[dire lynx]

they just have a metallic shell

[knotty dome]

Lifeblood has been fleshed out enough and I think they’re gonna keep wyrms more vague for future stuff steel soul stuff are probably the most likely

[lean temple]

He's a backer character. He's definitely coming in the future

[knotty dome]

Sula calling them unfeeling did not help me reaching that conclusion

[brisk finch]

ye I don't trust anyone's assessment of anyone's emotional state in these games

[buoyant salmon]

my theory that Team Cherry want to make the Steel lore good

[lean temple]

They're definitely not normal bugs though

[knotty dome]

You think dlc or another tc game?

[buoyant salmon]

so they delay it

[static prism]

Damn, i didnt think they had/needed backers for Silksong actually.

[buoyant salmon]

Pure Vessel playable /j

[lean temple]

DLC. Something that fully explores the Masters might be another game

[knotty dome]

That was before silksong was being made for a while game

[sudden pivot]

dude how did Team Cherry even find the word "sylphean" I cant even find any examples of it being used in context online

[dire lynx]

"The steelhearts feel so little... but we forced to serve"
they still feel, but have been supressed

[knotty dome]

But hopefully steel related stuff for shkong dlc

[lean temple]

It probably is something in universe then, like verdanian

[dire lynx]

certainly

[tiny socket]

Sylphs are wind fairies aren’t they?

[brisk finch]

I wonder if they've changed their mind on being done with HK
Obviously "Hornet dlc" took on a life of its own, but they did say they wanted to do things with their other ideas and maybe come back to HK for a HK2 in 10 years

[lean temple]

Or even, compressed

[buoyant salmon]

it said to be continue, so I think the dlc wont be the end

[sudden pivot]

yes, I was told by my sibling "sylphean" was used to refer to heavenly things in some old english, no idea where they got that from or if it's true

[brisk finch]

It also said that at the end of HK with mister mushroom, a character who references Hungry Knight and Tomb Cat, previous products

And Skong was never gonna be its own game to begin with, when that was written

[knotty dome]

Maybe after the ambitious dlcs they’ll move on. Like godseeker was pretty ambitious gameplay wise and lore wise.

[lean temple]

He always says to be continued tbf

[brisk finch]

It's what I'm assuming for now, just to keep my hopes reasonable

[teal drift]

I think silksong is last HK for a while minus some stray Skong DLC

[brisk finch]

That's what I'm saying
it never referred to "HK2"/"silksong"

it referred to the next TC game

[tiny socket]

I assume sylphean is just the adjective form of sylph, so it’s saying the slug is wind related I guess

[buoyant salmon]

Silksong was originally a dlc that turn into full game since TC want the lore to be fleshed out more

[knotty dome]

It should be good enough to last another decade or two

[brisk finch]

I'm aware

That's what I'm saying
We cannot take Mister Mushroom's "to be continued" as somehting that refers to hk3 or whatever
Because the original was written with an entirely different game in mind

there was no plan for hk2/silksong, only "in 10 years, perhaps"

I keep seeing people bring it up, that it says tbc
but like, no
Mister mushroom says tbc, not "hollow knight/silksong"

[buoyant salmon]

I think in Original HK, TC does not think about a new game, but now with Silksong, it's very likely that they would continue it

[sudden pivot]

playable Shakra dlc but she's too tall so we have to made a third game exploring the Land of Storms trust 🙏

[brisk finch]

they said that, if they could go back ion time, they wouldnt make hollow knight

they'd make one of their other ideas instead

[knotty dome]

Yeah I don’t think they thought abt coming this far with the franchise so they will probably continue it

[lean temple]

I mean they could make Elder Hu part of Shakra's tribe

[pliant meadow]

No they go back to Hallownest to make hollow knight 2 just to mess with people

[tiny socket]

Who can say whether the to be continued is actually meant for the player? Mister Mushroom is notorious for apostrophe, so maybe he’s just informing his imaginary friends that he specifically is going to herald some other event

[brisk finch]

I hope they have enough fun with HK that they continue playing in this world and with this style
but I'm not assuming anything

[brisk finch]

He is aware of Hungry Knight and Tomb Cat

[buoyant salmon]

also at the end of SS, it said this

[sudden pivot]

they seemed pretty enthusiastic about announcing DLC work like right after launch

[brisk finch]

TC is the "us"

Again, HK also said that lol

[pliant meadow]

It also had 'soon' in hollow knight 😭

[brisk finch]

Right, but skong is, somehow, still not finished
Still, good sign tho!

[lean temple]

Yeah they took out the "soon" lol

[brisk finch]

They don't seem tired at least

[knotty dome]

Would that have been for the better or worse like, on one hand hk took the indie world by storm and is regarded as one of the best metroidvanias while on the other hand their other ideas would have been amazing.

[brisk finch]

They said it in the context that they had so many things they want to work on

that they didn't want to stick to just hk
but this was in the hornet dlc era

[knotty dome]

That was like 6 years ago yes?

[lean temple]

Obviously they should clone themselves

[brisk finch]

Yes, old interview!

I am not sayin g that's their current htoughts

[knotty dome]

Anyways hoping for dlc in a year or two

[brisk finch]

I'm saying we have no way to know their current thoughts, but things like mister mushroom specifically aren't an indication

HK dlc were 6 months apart roughly

[sudden pivot]

I think it's mostly just social pressure, if TC lived in an echo chamber I genuinely dont think we'd have gotten Silksong for another 3-5 years and it probably would have been another 30-40% larger

[ebon silo]

Grimm dlc in sep 30 trust

[knotty dome]

I think mr mushroom is coming in every tc game not just hk it wouldn’t make sense but mr mushroom doesn’t make sense anyways

[brisk finch]

Not sure, if they gave into pressure that easily there would've been more updates
Instead, they just kept going

[knotty dome]

We already have a zesty bug we don’t need another

[brisk finch]

That's what I think, that they made a lil mascott guy for themselves
or at least, that that's the intent for now

[sudden pivot]

they said they didn't wanna spoil anything at all that was the motivation for no updates

[brisk finch]

Sort of, they said that+ that they thought they were almost done and so stopped for a bit
And then more time passed
and then they couldn't go back

that's in the schreier post announcement interview

they thought they'd be done sooner but weren't
but if they cared about pressure/had seen more of r/silksong, they def would've posted anyway

[sudden pivot]

I dont really know anything about r/silksong and stuff I moreso mean the actual impact on the industry, people flooding announcements in hopes of Skong and leaving in droves when realizing it wont be there, that sort of thing

[brisk finch]

Ye, that's connected

[zealous fjord]

Ghost being alive (insofar as life applies) was not on my bingo card…

[brisk finch]

the silksanity branched out

[sudden pivot]

in retrospect it feels obvious like there's no reason to assume they wouldn't return to the Abyss with the rest of the Siblings after the Dream no More ending

[zealous fjord]

No real bu like…

[brisk finch]

Ye Delicate Flower shows the flower banishing them back to it

[zealous fjord]

How is that proven as vanishing and not just… destruction?

[brisk finch]

The flower does not seem capable of that whatsoever in Skong

But pushing the void away is entirely what it's shown doing

And with godseeker stuff going on, banishment

[zealous fjord]

And with the void now confirmed as universal (I think) it makes perfect sense that it would find her… though it’s control of the void is clearly less than I was under the impression of

[sudden pivot]

yeah but like prior to skong releasing we had no frame of reference for if the Lord Shade got banished or just annihlated

[zealous fjord]

But that’s a fairly stretchy assumption

[brisk finch]

I actually always assumed banished, but I agree that Skong provides the strongest evidence

[sudden pivot]

so at the time it wouldn't have contributed to people's conclusions

at least not en mass

[brisk finch]

By virtue of showing the flower in action
Even in HK, there is a way for Ghost to safely hold it

[zealous fjord]

Well. As a vessel

Within which a shade is contained

There’s a pretty major difference

[brisk finch]

I made an assumption during HK proven right in Skong, I don't need to defend it now after the fact XD

[zealous fjord]

Well. Clearly certain endings for the first game aren’t canon so not necessarily

[sudden pivot]

I presume it has complete control over the part of the void it's siblings shades comprise and is just kinda chill with and vaguely in charge of the rest of it

[brisk finch]

The flower can't kill the void or anything, the void is stronger
It just provides very strong protection and pushes it back (like when hornet jumps into the tentacle water before the dive)

[brisk finch]

I assume the ending that shows the Shade Lord and doesn't show the HK dying is the canon ending, yes
Especially since it introduces the big plot device's power from Skong
And was written last

[zealous fjord]

But pushing away and banishing a fairly massive distance in an instant seem… different

[brisk finch]

During skong production

[naive mango]

Was silksong originally supposed to be a prequel?

[sudden pivot]

took the entire power of the Flower in one go to do the banishment tbf

[sudden pivot]

it was originally meant to be simultaneous with the first game

[zealous fjord]

That’s fair

[brisk finch]

That hasn't been confirmed at all

Unless there's a specific quote I'm missing, they nevr specified

[knotty dome]

I don’t think it ever was planned as a prequel no

[brisk finch]

december 19, 2014

[naive mango]

Y’all I fr remember it was supposed to be a prequel, this was very back in 2019-2020 I think

[brisk finch]

I don't recall that

[sudden pivot]

was it not originally concieved as just a new playable character dlc? with no further context given then the implication is that it would have just taken place in the same time and area as the base game

[brisk finch]

I just send that text yes, caverns of Hallownest

But no timeframe given

[sudden pivot]

I literally already responded to this exact argument in the message you are responding to

[brisk finch]

Place, not time

That's what I'm disagreeing with

As far as I know, and I fairly recently double checked, they never specified a time

[sudden pivot]

I said "with no further context given the implication is that it would have taken place in the same place and time as the base game"

[brisk finch]

It could've been pre-Ghost arrival
or post-endings

[sudden pivot]

im not working off word of god here im going off Occam's Razor

[brisk finch]

And I'm disagreeing

[naive mango]

I went in thinking it was a prequel, didn’t impact my playthrough, I got confused when I saw the true ending

[quartz salmon]

Why would you assume that it's a prequel when they're is nothing pointing to that

[brisk finch]

Hornet's talk of standing sentinal (heh, Hornet Sentinal) and her comparing Lace and Ghost made me heavily suspect, but I expected it to be ambiguous
So glad it wasn;t

[sudden pivot]

also her dialouge of God's being able to fall too

[flint wadi]

i went in fully expecting a post dnm timeline and hornets wording just kept confirming it for me lol

[brisk finch]

That could theoretically have just been about the Pale King, but yes

it all points towards sequel and then true end goes LOL HERE'S THE BEST PROTAG

[naive mango]

Cuz I remember sometime back in 2019-2020 someone said it was. I didn’t keep up with the news after, all the way until it released

[quartz salmon]

Okay then that's a reasonable mistake

[brisk finch]

2019 would've been

This update
For context

[naive mango]

It says sequel

[brisk finch]

But that started the "story sequel or game sequel" debate

the word prequel was never said

[sudden pivot]

I mean if you disagree as in thats not what you derive from the statement thats absolutely valid but I dont see how one can disagree with the fact that my conclusion requires the least amount of assumptions

[brisk finch]

would've ended it rigth there and then

[flint wadi]

idk silksong being a prequel never jived well with me

it just feels wrong to be on a cruise through another kingdom while hallownest is still in crisis there

[brisk finch]

I disagree that it's the least amount of assumptions
I disagree with making any assumptions whatsoever in this specific scenario

It's uneccessary
We simply don't have the data to know what the dlc would've done

We only know the place, not time

[naive mango]

I dunno. Hornet is pretty old, maybe it would have been b4 Hallownest got fucked

[flint wadi]

thats not what im talking about

[brisk finch]

But yes, when Silksong was announced, it was announced as a sequel
"Hornet dlc" did not get details
People argued if it was a story prequel and there were fair arguments on both sides, but TC never said the word prequel or implied it

[sudden pivot]

I dont theorize for necessity I do it cause I think it's fun :D if you're happy with an "I dont know" cool but I prefer to think of what is most likely ^^

[brisk finch]

This isn't lore theorizing, this is just factual reality

[zealous fjord]

Except that it makes the least assumptions that actually grants an answer.

[flint wadi]

hallownest was fucked pretty much ever since hornet was born, that was herrahs condition for becoming a dreamer

[sudden pivot]

im not allowed to theorize about reality when we dont know the facts??

[brisk finch]

But I don't want to assume an answer about something real? This isn't lore

[zealous fjord]

Something something occamd razor

[brisk finch]

I'm not a cop, not gonna arrest you
I just disagree

[zealous fjord]

Very fair point we do seem off-topic

[brisk finch]

I see little worth in assumptions like that because they quickly become "fact"

People spread them and never check back on the source

[naive mango]

Also why did hornet have aids at the very start then stop having it all the way until act 3?

[knotty dome]

Aids?

[zealous fjord]

I’m sorry, aids?

[brisk finch]

An in-game theory is working with clues that could provide an answer, or taking things to logical conclusions
TC just have the answer to this lol

[sudden pivot]

I appreciate that, and like I said thats totally chill if "I dont know" is an or even the only satisfactory answer for you here, I just personally have fun pondering ^^

[naive mango]

Yeah she had like these episodes where she could barely move

[teal drift]

I think the shrine maiden cured her disease in act 1 and then sherma cured her in act 3

[brisk finch]

I like digging into cut content and the like so I won't pretend not to see the appeal at all
But as you may have been able to see, I really did scour every single piece of TC words I could find

[knotty dome]

Oh panic attack basicaly

[flint wadi]

moments of weakness

[brisk finch]

I just don't think we have enough to go on when it comes to irl stuff

[teal drift]

And i think theyre the result of a big fall, anxiety, or adapting to the overwhelming presence of a new god

[brisk finch]

Ye Hornet was just hurt at the start+act 3

[flint wadi]

it was at the beginning of act 1 when she fell 14 stories down

[naive mango]

I thought it was void sickness or smth

[brisk finch]

weakened

[knotty dome]

She’s still a person with a reasonable reaction to everything so she’d probably be having panic attacks

[brisk finch]

Theree wasn't any void in act 1 yet

[sudden pivot]

you've seen all the cut content on TCRF I assume? im a total junkie for that kinda stuff I think we can find some common ground there X3

[teal drift]

Then she falls again in act 3 like 4 times after nearly getting eaten

[brisk finch]

I've b een going through the sprites and text files+ the save file myself and it's been a joy

[zealous fjord]

I think she was just… in a case for a long time

[naive mango]

I mean the void was always present

[teal drift]

Also she was sealed by the cage and nearly sealed by GMS

[brisk finch]

In the void, yes, not Pharloom proper

[zealous fjord]

Just really… really tired

[brisk finch]

Huh, does Silksong not have a tcrf page yet?

[knotty dome]

I think she was just weakened due to her atrophying due to the time spent in the cage as well as the runes actively suppressing hef

[brisk finch]

Resists urge to start it, I can't be doing this again

[naive mango]

I mean she didn’t have an episode when she also fell 14 stories down at act 2 start

[brisk finch]

Hornet has been captured for a while, used a lot of energy freeing herself and fell on her head

It's a combination

Then act 3 adds the void to the mix

[zealous fjord]

And… more falling and explosions

[knotty dome]

I mean at that point (assuming it was panic attacks) she was already used to being in another land and when she fell that was just danger and she’s no stranger to danger. Horrible guesses ik

[brisk finch]

[sudden pivot]

okay I know this should probably be a question for #hk-lore but I really want yalls thoughts on it

[zealous fjord]

I mean… beyond panic attacks she wa shit absolutely exhausted

#sk-help ?

[sudden pivot]

did PK know about the Dreamnail? did the Moths keep it from him that they were hanging on to the "1v1 Radiance sword" the entire time? or what?

[naive mango]

I really think it’s some type of void induced episodes of weakness, aesthetically it works, and timing too, when she first makes contact with the land, and when the void is first unleashed

[zealous fjord]

I imagine he didn’t need it. He shunted the entire WP.

[rare meteor]

wrong channel, yeah

[brisk finch]

It's possible THK had to 1v1 Radiance to absorb her to begin with

[zealous fjord]

So he probably just couldn’t take her

[knotty dome]

She was sitting down the whole time in her cage how could she be exhausted?

[brisk finch]

Stressed and trapped?

[sudden pivot]

man he's kinda bitchmade huh

[zealous fjord]

Cause she had to expend a ton of energy? Also, that’s how muscles work

[brisk finch]

+the long journey
Ever sat in a car for 10 hours

[teal drift]

The magic cage that sapped her strength… sapped her strength

[zealous fjord]

Do bugs have muscles Idfk?

[zealous fjord]

He’s a little smaller than he used to be

[naive mango]

Y’all she didn’t have the “episode” when she first fell, she got it a bit after, then another when she met the shaman

[knotty dome]

I mean like how else are they supposed to move. I know it’s never confirmed if they actually have muscles or soul purely animates them but it seems reasonable to assume they have muscles to move

[brisk finch]

Ye the bugs in this game are a mix of bugs and humans

[rare meteor]

insects do, spiders don't

[sudden pivot]

should have left the Abyss door open and just given every vessel a shot at 1v1ing Radiance, she'd probably get tired eventually, or something, it's a better plan than what he decided to do with the rest of the vessels which was nothing -_-

[zealous fjord]

Adrenaline I think

Escapes, then crashes

[knotty dome]

Well anthropomorphic bugs but best not talk about the logistics and realism

[brisk finch]

The reason Hornet was killing vessels is because she was afraid that they'd be strong enough to free her, but not to beat her
THK was trained specifically because PK saw potential to beat her in one go

[naive mango]

Bruh ngl we ran outta bullshit

[rare meteor]

actually i looked it up and spiders do have muscles, but only for bending their legs

[zealous fjord]

Well… ghost beat radiance after wandering the entire kingdom and gather immense pwoer from it

Maybe don’t throw infants at a god

[brisk finch]

They're not even all bugs (we've got roots y'all) XD

[flint wadi]

the seals weakened her

[brisk finch]

Wise words

[zealous fjord]

That’s… how adrenaline works tho

[knotty dome]

Shit we have fungis too

[flint wadi]

its kind of just a mix of everything

[brisk finch]

Right, they're just people with different flavors

[wintry verge]

the ending where the knight saves hornet is the true ending right?

[brisk finch]

You can't just apply bug logic because they're not even all bugs

[knotty dome]

Crazy how being built like a unit like them choir clappers and being small is so normalized in hk

[brisk finch]

Well, it's the act 3 ending and thus the final ending

[sudden pivot]

what does "beating" her even mean without Void Heart? Ghost just murders her ass, if PK is able to incapacitate her somehow he might as well just keep wailing on her till shes dead even if it takes a long ass time

[brisk finch]

there's no labeling of true end
but it does permanently change your title screen (adds Lace's pin)

[zealous fjord]

They do taste amazing…

[zealous fjord]

No way to really know.

[brisk finch]

Weaken her enough to contain her

[naive mango]

Isn’t bug size directly influenced by how much the bug feeds?

More so than age

[brisk finch]

Karmelita is huge so prob not

[zealous fjord]

Well, some of them, clearly.

[flint wadi]

thats part of the animalistic/species vareity aspect of it

[rare meteor]

to a certain extent, species still matters more

[wintry verge]

i mean the devs said that for og hollow knight and look at how that turned out

[knotty dome]

Do NOT put the twisted bud in your mouth

[zealous fjord]

Too late.

[flint wadi]

in many cases yeah

[brisk finch]

Right, they said that pre-godhome, and then they wrote more silksong stuff behind the scenes and added godhome

[flint wadi]

but its not a constant

[rare meteor]

karmelita is an ant queen, so her being way bigger than most of them makes sense

[brisk finch]

But even then, within Hollow Knight, no one ending is True

ETV/DF are just the endings Skong follows up on

[brisk finch]

I'm saying it's not food related

[knotty dome]

Also lore wise some enemies have been described to have grown like that

[flint wadi]

i think hk's logic of "every ending is valid" applies to this, though silksong is noticeably incomplete without act 3

[naive mango]

Also hornet is way older than I thought, the journal entry for the conch boss basically confirms she is somewhat ancient

[brisk finch]

According to HK's manual, Vespa just grew until she couldn't leave the Hive anymore

[brisk finch]

She';s called Old One by mask maker

[flint wadi]

karmelita and vespa are queens so thats also a thing to consider

[brisk finch]

As an example
Twisted Child is fully capable of happening and everything we see inside of it is real in the world

it's not an odd what iff

It's not a dream

It's fully canon and real

[zealous fjord]

I’d argue DNM could still apply.

No evidence that ghost is actually dead, just an empty shell

[brisk finch]

I'm not going to start this argument for the ...4th? time in a week

[naive mango]

I played the game start to finish completely blind, I met the mask guy and he told me to come back without a mask. Does he do anything or is that it?

[brisk finch]

Yes it's tuesday

[sudden pivot]

but then why not just kill her? plus Ghost doesn't have to enter the Dream World at all to contain her

[zealous fjord]

Damn. Pain indeed

[brisk finch]

You can beat the mask off with a charged attack

[brisk finch]

It's not on you, but I don't want to copy and paste my replies too much
It's a valid discussion, I think just think half the people having it are wrong

[brisk finch]

She's not exactly easy to kill

[zealous fjord]

“Having it wrong”?

[flint wadi]

they do, sister of void intentionally keeps it vague

[zealous fjord]

She’s more thought than organism so that shouldn’t be a surprise

[brisk finch]

(I'm jokingly saying everyone who doesn't agree with me is just plain incorrect)

[zealous fjord]

Oh lmao

[knotty dome]

Anyone else content with how they explained lore wise why we only see the coral tower and nothing else?

[brisk finch]

I like Coral Tower and I'd be fine with no expansion
I just need to know why the judges are "Coral_Judge"

[zealous fjord]

I don’t understand what you’re asking

[rare meteor]

i feel like the Shade Lord making an appearance is a strong argument against DNM