sk-lore

[sinful nimbus]

Its just a disagreement man

[foggy fractal]

hey jojoker

[rancid dagger]

considering hallownest religion was basically pale king worship then unless PK didn't want lifeblood around there'd be no reason for it to be taboo

[hasty flint]

The lifeblood development felt completely natural to me

[sinful nimbus]

No one is out here thinking hating on lifeblood lore is defending their pride or whatever

[terse warren]

Well canonically the Knight doesn't die so Jiji never came in contact with Void, so the Masters wouldn't see her as "tainted"

[sinful nimbus]

Engage with the argument or don't engage at all

[rancid dagger]

writing on a blank slate is not an unnatural direction and again, it is foreshadowed that there are dangers to lifeblood

[sinful nimbus]

"social"

[terse warren]

gurt

[rancid dagger]

why would there be a social taboo around lifeblood if it didn't do anything bad

[flint wadi]

fym hinted where she literally brushes off the fact that its a taboo while aknowledging it and still selling it

[sinful nimbus]

There are multiple social taboos that have no practical reason

[flint wadi]

yeah so

[potent patio]

The reason why the knight can use so much lifeblood without getting corrupted is probably the same reason why void is so effective against higher beings

[open dragon]

I find it interesting Steel Soul in both Hollow Knight games are essentially different universes with their lore and characters

[rancid dagger]

it's just two sides of an argument there's really no issue

[rancid dagger]

such as

[flint wadi]

ss shows the lifeblood one was warranted

[sinful nimbus]

Elbows on tables

[foggy fractal]

I see

[sinful nimbus]

Again this is indicated to be a MILD taboo for a HEALTHY substance

[hasty flint]

We’re retreading the same point about how there are signs that there’s something wrong with lifeblood, how it could have been kept in check until after the events of HK, and then a statement that it nonetheless had to be a retcon, and then we just go around the wheel again

[sinful nimbus]

Not an extreme taboo made because the substance is DANGEROUS

[rancid dagger]

that's from sailors on ships

[terse warren]

it still has no practical reason

[gentle aspen]

we are not sailors on ships anymore

[rancid dagger]

because salubra doesn't know the extent of the danger

[hasty flint]

Please mossbag release a video and end this cycle

[gentle aspen]

It serves no practical reason anymore

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[foggy fractal]

then what are we ? bugs in a cave ?

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not saying its diegetically impossible

[terse warren]

you say this as if mossbag was an all-knowing god

[gentle aspen]

we’re folks

[steep talon]

I mean yeah, some taboo things are taboo because they're dangerous. You say taboo doesn't imply that it is dangerous, I agree. But we shouldn't now deny that taboos are always safe or something. Lifeblood being taboo could have happened because it was dangerous

[foggy fractal]

oh ok

[sinful nimbus]

I'm saying its sloppy writing and an unnatural direction for the story to take

[gentle aspen]

mossbag’s video is coming soon

[flint wadi]

stated where , in wording

all she does is aknowledge its a taboo

[gentle aspen]

he told me so

[rancid dagger]

but it has an origin, sailors not having a clean reputation, of course now we don't have a use for it but it's a social custom that stays and has an origin

[gentle aspen]

?

[terse warren]

"a bit taboo"

"A BIT"

[random harbor]

Salubra - Goods - Lifeblood Heart

Have you ever drunk that bright blue liquid, 'lifeblood'? It's a bit of a taboo, but it makes you feel much healthier doesn't it?
This charm seeps lifeblood and will certainly improve your constitution!

@kingoclowns used /npcs merchants name: Salubra category: Goods dialogue: Lifeblood Heart

[foggy fractal]

hi i am a bit

:D

[terse warren]

ok and? still doesn't have a practical reason

[rancid dagger]

lifeblood being a taboo has to have an origin and that origin can only be during the pale king's rule since hallownest bugs weren't uplifted before

[gentle aspen]

She says it improves your constitution and makes you feel healthier

[rancid dagger]

doesnt have a reason NOW but it originates for a reason

[gentle aspen]

If this entire argument is predicated on lifeblood being banned by PK because he somehow knew the infection was gonna happen that’s baseless

[sinful nimbus]

What this origin is was never hinted at but it could've been reasonably inferred that it was not due to the substance being dangerous

[gentle aspen]

the game would note somewhere that he did something like that aside from one npc’s dialogue handwaving away said taboo

[rancid dagger]

how can you reasonably infer that

[sinful nimbus]

Because the taboo is mild and the substance is indicated to be healthy

[terse warren]

a very mild reason, not "it deforms your outside and insides, making you stronger but also killing you"

[steep talon]

No, we seem to be arguing whether taking lifeblood into this direction in silksong is a retcon, i guess

[gentle aspen]

I mean, it is a retcon, just a mild one
personally I find it lame since it just retreads the infection but whatevs

[rancid dagger]

if the substance was only healthy then the taboo wouldn't exist in the first place

[foggy fractal]

y'know what deforms your outsides and insides, making your stronger but also killing you ? heh. the infection. #RADIANCEFORLIFE

[sinful nimbus]

No?

[sour quartz]

we talkin bout lifeblood in here

[sinful nimbus]

You're assuming the only possible origin of a taboo is for health reasons

[hasty flint]

Joni being considered a heretic is likely due to the lifeblood thing unless there’s some unstated second thing they were considered heretical for and the lifeblood is just a coincidence

[flint wadi]

again taking a neutral concept with very few implications in a certain direction is not what id consider unnatural when the entire concept of lifeblood is a blank slate but you keep it to yourself i guess

[sinful nimbus]

In the context of HK Joni was pretty clearly more magically linked to the substance. She had a whole charm and all

[rancid dagger]

you are making absolute truth from a statement from an NPC who doesn't know the full extent of a substance's properties

[sonic dawn]

what is greymoor for? with all that silk production, what is the purpose of that area?

[hasty flint]

And is also, I must stress, SELLING YOU SOMETHING

[flint wadi]

feels like a very manufactured reason to complain just saying

[sinful nimbus]

Lifeblood wasn't a blank slate because it was mentioned multiple times throughout the game in a manner that indicated it wasn't meaningfully dangerous

[rancid dagger]

and what other possible origin is there then? i think it's more reasonable to assume the taboo comes from either A) it being forbidden by someone who know's better (PK) or B) it having negative effects

[sinful nimbus]

We didn't know the origin and it didn't matter

As I've said multiple times its only a mild taboo which means it was not a law nor something meant to prevent extreme danger

[steep talon]

That's an interesting point that it retreads infection. I didn't really notice it though. It was like a jumpscare, where infection is like a slowburn

[rancid dagger]

you dont need to know the origin but saying lifeblood wasn't foreshadowed to be dangerous just because they dont tell you straight up "yo this thing bad" doesnt really make sense

[sinful nimbus]

No one said that

[rancid dagger]

marihuana is illegal and many places and it's a mild taboo

[gentle aspen]

you see how this isn’t an equivalent comparison yes

[rancid dagger]

it can be equivalent when your ordinary hallownest citizen has never seen a lifeblood infection and can't know the extent of the danger

[terse warren]

it's pretty lame that we have 4 different things that act like an infection ngl

[steep talon]

It used to be a farm of sorts. Those NPC in sinners I believe reminisce about that. Now it collects silk and spins. I'm not too sure why

[flint wadi]

it kinda was, all lifeblood is at the baseline is a substance that enchances someones health, thats all it needed to be in hk both as a mechanic and an element of worldbuilding

[foggy fractal]

how bout a 5th with grimm trouple dlc to Silksong that has nightmared enemies.

[gentle aspen]

it really can’t because there’s a marked difference in laws from several different governments varying wildly to a god king who “made the lands” making it taboo

[foggy fractal]

🐺

[sonic dawn]

maybe they collect silk to send it to the whiteward?

[steep talon]

Something something, wyrms pull bugs into their thrall, something something

[sinful nimbus]

List of original ideas in Silksong:
Court of the Craws
...
...
...

[rancid dagger]

surely just because your monarch forbids something doesn't mean you instantly think it's a mind devouring substance right

[gentle aspen]

that’s not really the point

[foggy fractal]

hey how about the floating air ships that Seamstress and Pinstress live in

[sonic dawn]

btw, the surgeons in the whiteward were experimenting with silk on bugs in the orders from GMS? or by themselves?

[rancid dagger]

by themselves im pretty sure

[gentle aspen]

citadel in general
GMS seems to have been sealed away by the weavers or something

[sinful nimbus]

True...

[flint wadi]

and the game DOES hint at there being repricussions around lifeblood, be it through joni or hallownests scrutiny around it, so the direction isnt unwarranted

[left dune]

???

[steep talon]

Could be, although whiteward may have been defunct for a long time. They basically achieved immortality there, so sickness injuries is not irrelevant. Not sure why it would still be in use, but maybe they were still experimenting before Hornet came in

[foggy fractal]

yeah I really enjoyed them they were cool

[sinful nimbus]

Name an original idea

[terse warren]

it's not even ragebait at this point man

[gentle aspen]

I don’t think she has any political power in Pharloom anymore

[left dune]

Every area? Every enemy except for the void ones that were in HK?

[sinful nimbus]

yeah like whiteward

[rancid dagger]

also the fact that lifeblood and the abyss seem to have a connection

[sinful nimbus]

Oop no that's soul sanctum. Try Bilewater
Oops no Groal is Soul Master

[rancid dagger]

not until the haunting

[hasty flint]

Whiteward is basically bloodborne I’ll admit

[gentle aspen]

that’s not even political power
just a general curse haunting the land that most don’t know what’s the cause

[terse warren]

no checkpoint until the boss is very original but it's also bad 😔

[gentle aspen]

‘S like saying rad has political power

[gentle aspen]

well

[foggy fractal]

the coglies flying around attack that the maestro does is just soul master's attack again.

[flint wadi]

did people sleep through the citadel or something

[rancid dagger]

true

[sour quartz]

ok im caught up

[celest wagon]

Sent this in the wrong channel oops mb 😭

[steep talon]

Lol

[sinful nimbus]

You mean its a shining holy place of worship that bugs make pilgrimages to? 🤔

[hasty flint]

Deep docks

[rancid dagger]

i mean if we are gonna use this logic to talk about originality then the only original thing in the first game are the vessels

[left dune]

No no one wants to go there actually

[sinful nimbus]

Oh wait no there's an angry goddess who was betrayed by her creations in the citadel so its original

[foggy fractal]

thought that said angry birds for a second

[flint wadi]

right and you wanted what exactly in a world where points of interest stem from holy beings that develop civilizations around them

[sinful nimbus]

Angry birds like the court of the craws 🗣️

[steep talon]

Does HK have original ideas?

[foggy fractal]

🗣️ AHHHHHHHHHHHHEYAAAAAAAAAAA !

[flint wadi]

but no sure man

[foggy fractal]

holy peak 😭

[flint wadi]

citadel is white palace, 1 to 1

[sinful nimbus]

No

[terse warren]

id say greymoor but that is also just bloodborne

[left dune]

does any game have original ideas?

[celest wagon]

Prob really obvious question but Was moorwing also made in the memorium?

[rancid dagger]

go play destiny 🔥

[hasty flint]

Find me a truly original idea ANYWHERE, though

[sinful nimbus]

Noita 🗣️

[left dune]

not really

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway saying Silksong has no original ideas is hyperbole but most things surrounding GMS are ripped off from the first game

[hasty flint]

So much of noita is Finnish mythology and hermeticism

[terse warren]

Outer Wilds trust

[steep talon]

I thought God home was pretty original in hk. We do get boss rushes, but for them to be lore relevant is reallyncool actually. The closest thing is like seed of evil in castlvania

[sour quartz]

i have a few things to add

1. retcons are not inherently negative. it literally just mwans “retroactive continuity”, so a story having retcons isnt a claim you have to defend against madly
   the main thing is if the retroactive continuity MAKES SENSE AND WORKS or if its SLOPPY, which is the main discussion here

leading to 2. i think the lifeblood danger retcon fits perfectly fine into the setup of hollow knight. salubra saying “its a bit of a taboo” imo was always obviously her downplaying its negative reputation because shes a fan of the stuff. ladys in her house giggling all the time i dont think shed care much to tell you to never do drugs

[rancid dagger]

GMS and Lace are polar opposites of PK and THK tho, the parallels between them are the point

[sinful nimbus]

Outer Wilds is just another oversaturated space exploration game with a cryptic indie story 🥱

[left dune]

It's still a Team Cherry (tm) idea lol

[sinful nimbus]

I don't see how GMS and Lace are meaningful parallels to PK and THK. Those two stories hardly compliment eachother

[sour quartz]

also yeah the whole “show me an original idea” thing is completely faulty because no story ever anywhere is composed of stuff youve never heard before

[steep talon]

I agreed

[left dune]

lifeblood didn't even get retconned imo

[steep talon]

Maybe it's a spectrum

[sinful nimbus]

I agree that retcons aren't inherently negative

[sour quartz]

it did. it can be as simple as not having an idea for something at first and then coming up with one later, which i feel like is what happened

[lilac geode]

did any youtuber post something to explain all the endings?

[sinful nimbus]

But like Joker pointed out having yet another infection knockoff is exhausting

Especially when its reusing an idea from the first game

[left dune]

but I feel like lifeblood was exactly like plasmium and behaved pretty much like it even in the first game

[flint wadi]

THATS WHAT IM SAYINGG, BUT EVERYONE HERE NEEDS A DEADPAN SCRIPT WITH SALUBRA SAYING "Oh no, this is lifeblood, the substance that has very negative consequences on your health if you consume it too much, it is deemed a taboo of the highest order in this nation that im residing in - Hallownest"

[left dune]

I'd say Herrah being a weaver is a retcon more than anything

[terse warren]

especially when it's one out of three infections in a single game

[flint wadi]

fucking hell man

[steep talon]

I manifested mossbag to post that . It will happen totally. But outside of that probably yes, but it's not gonna go in depth most likely. The endings are pretty dense

[foggy fractal]

having to do 3 things to go to the final boss is such a good idea they pulled it two times in this game 🐺 holy aura

[steep talon]

Yee

[sinful nimbus]

I like the 3 objective format tbf

The hearts serve no narrative purpose though wtf 😭

[foggy fractal]

it was just for gameplay purposes TRUST.

[terse warren]

and it goes all the way up to 5 with the Last Judge bells, wow

[left dune]

the hearts are just the power of the old strong beings and rulers

[sour quartz]

it was notably missing a large chunk of what it does in silksong. i would say this is because team cherry was leaving the full story of lifeblood vague at the time both to inspire fandom discussion and because they themselves hadnt yet come up with all their ideas about lifeblood yet.
then by silksong they had

[foggy fractal]

awesome win

[rancid dagger]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1nbjdj3/storylore_analysis_something_im_loving_that_rly/ this dude probably explains it better than i can right now

[sinful nimbus]

Not complaining about having to fight my goat Seth

[terse warren]

2 of them are forced onto you, and the third... is from unraveled?

[sinful nimbus]

TLDR

[sour quartz]

i actually agree

[teal drift]

Yeah the hesrs are weird af

[terse warren]

technically you can just do green prince instead of nyleth

[foggy fractal]

I would love to see a Seth skin sometime in the future given his similar stature to Hornet

[steep talon]

I was actually arguing about that. And people said hearts contain power of the tribe at their prime, something like that

[teal drift]

Not sure why bell beast has a silk heart she weak as hell lmfao

[left dune]

well yea but it missing that stuff isnt really a retcon its more just adding new information that isn't impossible to exist in HK (just not shown). If it was a retcon it would in some way contradict HK. That's at least my understanding of what a retcon is.

[teal drift]

I think the hearts are inherited wills of gods that khan/karm/nyleth inherited

[rancid dagger]

too many detailed points to make a tldr but it's basically both in their relation to their respective kids plus the way they ruled and shaped the kingdoms

[sinful nimbus]

Actually scrolling through this post it mentions Evangelion I'm not reading ts 😭

[steep talon]

Probably was raised by weavers to wait for Hornet. Dialogue in silk heart memory implies that she has waited for her

[sour quartz]

retcons do not mean contradictions, they mean retroactive continuity. addinf something that wasnt there before with the implication that it was always that way

so again, not a 100% bad word like people use it as

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-try-not-to-laugh-gif-7682731162751353849

[teal drift]

I thought that silk heart memory was gms but i see your vision

[sour quartz]

alfred, batmans butler, being like a father to him was a retcon and thats one of the best things to ever happen to batman

[uneven river]

Is there any lore I missed about what's up with all the glowy moths in Pharloom and why one of them breaks the rune cage holding Hornet, or is that in the "it's probably Radiance related and we should be concerned" speculative territory

[sour quartz]

i actually have no clue

i was callin them lumaflies but theyre definitely not shaped like lumaflies

[sinful nimbus]

Whiteward experiments it seems

Bug souls be in those flies

[sour quartz]

yum!

[steep talon]

They are some weird souls/ghosts of bugs. Why does one break a rune cage.. no clue

[sour quartz]

well i feel like soul touching a magic soul barrier and causing some sort of energy short circuit makes sense enough

[steep talon]

They are also called lampflies in files. Kinda makes them sound irrelevant doesn't it

[sour quartz]

thats what i always assumed it was before i actually knew what those flies were

[left dune]

sure but I feel like you can even see Lifeblood taking over areas and people in HK too which is why imo it isn't a retcon at all it's just at a larger scale in Silksong. Like in HK lifeblood has taken over Joni's Repose and taken Joni's body over by transfiguring his vital fluids into lifeblood.

[sour quartz]

aka before just now

[gentle aspen]

You don’t see it taking over people in Hk?

[left dune]

you do right like Joni

[sour quartz]

but i do think they would have taken the chance to have some lifeblood pustule’d enemies in some of those areas they had thought of it back then

[sinful nimbus]

I mean in the context of HK it seems Joni was more magically linked to the substance

[left dune]

I mean maybe they didn't have time because they needed to release

[steep talon]

That's a good parallel. Still wished it was something more concrete, that's explained in the game. But I'll take it

[uneven river]

If they are soul oriented, I'm kinda surprised not to see our Snail shamans interacting with them at all. Maybe a different form?

[gentle aspen]

No

[left dune]

no?

[gentle aspen]

She’s not taken over

[sinful nimbus]

Shamans don't interact with them but Lace does

[sour quartz]

hmm.. actually no i take that back. i think they probably only had the idea because of how safe lifeblood seemed in the original. like, because the contrast would be impactful, which i agree with this hypothetical decision if so

[left dune]

her vital fluids are lifeblood

[sinful nimbus]

She's seem "conducting" them with her pin and its presumed she's the one that guided the seal breaker to Hornet's cage

[terse warren]

but her outward appearance is completely normal, which is not what happened to the worms

[steep talon]

Yeah, lifeblood - jumpscare. Infection - slowburn

[gentle aspen]

as a result of her blessing yeah

[sour quartz]

i think it seemed that joni was linked to the substance. “magically” or not isnt concrete

[rancid dagger]

the biggest apparent retcon seems to be voidheart tbh

[left dune]

yea but her blessing clearly formed from her death no?

[rancid dagger]

that's something i think everyone can agree on

[sinful nimbus]

Nah

[gentle aspen]

No

[ivory forum]

Whats the retcon?

[sinful nimbus]

Her spirit talks about it which implies she had it in life

[left dune]

oh I guess I might be misinformed

[sinful nimbus]

The Knight now needs to attack tendrils to get them to cooperate

[sinful nimbus]

As opposed to HK where they were under its control

[rancid dagger]

void is NOT unified under the knight's will in TE

[ivory forum]

Where does he does this

[gentle aspen]

Are you being fr

[rancid dagger]

have you done true ending

[gentle aspen]

holy hell act 3 is stinky doodoo water

[sinful nimbus]

The void heart stuff is the main steak compared to the other retcons which are like seasoning

Hornet hating PK is the sauce

[ivory forum]

Yes

[steep talon]

Kinda. Void stops attacking them after void heart. Wouldn't really count it as a retcon that they need to attack it to help Hornet, though

[rancid dagger]

i mean to be fair voidheart never pacified the collector but it's one thing having a single void entity not be united under the void heart's will and not the entirety of the void

[ivory forum]

I might need to rewatch that cutscene does the knight really do that

[gentle aspen]

It is

[rancid dagger]

yea

[ivory forum]

Can someone send me a video

[steep talon]

She just calls him dumb, is that hating?

[sour quartz]

i think this retcon would be much smoother if in hollow knight it said “unifies void” instead of “unifies the void”

like “void given focus” i feel works with our new retcon because it can just as easily be read as “water given focus” instead of “all of the worlds oceans given focus”
but “unifies the void” doesnt have that same freedom. very much “unifies all of the worlds oceans” sounding if you know what i mean

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[rancid dagger]

the knight with the void heart is supposed to BE the void's will tho, so it shouldn't attack her at all

[rancid dagger]

agreed yea

[ivory forum]

I dont think this is a big retcon.

[grand hare]

could trobio be connected to the grimm troupe?

[rancid dagger]

https://youtu.be/UfkM1ioJWG8?si=YoQIH9iKoye6YFCc&t=464

[ivory forum]

Like a single the is so minor, plus HK and the collector which are still hostile bosses

[rancid dagger]

no

[sinful nimbus]

The tendrils sure weren't hostile

[ivory forum]

They dont attack him though

[past cypress]

Can someone explain to me the connection between First Sinner and Widow?

At first I thought First Sinner was Widow pre-punishment but apparently its' fight isn't a dream-like sequence and she's still alive (according to signs in The Slab) so do they just look and fight similar because they're both Weavers?

[sinful nimbus]

Also collector was very plausibly gameplay

[sinful nimbus]

Same species yeah

[rancid dagger]

hollow knight is controlled by the radiance, and it's a different thing having a single void entity be hostile than the entire void behaving however it wants and the knight having to attack it

[rancid dagger]

the knight attacks the tendrils

[sinful nimbus]

And it is a dream

[heady brook]

Didnt the void only attack and consume everything because the snail shamans, or what was the reason

[sinful nimbus]

First Sinner is dead

[rancid dagger]

it just had the chance to do it through GMS threads

so it did

[sinful nimbus]

The void is slithering its way up the silk which is interfering with the haunting and voiding everything up

[past cypress]

Are you sure? Slab signs specifically state "absolution [might be the wrong word] granted after death" for all other prisons

[left dune]

I mean is it really the entire void it was a few tendrils in the void

[past cypress]

First Sinner's prison says "Absolution not granted"

[ivory forum]

Yeah, i can stab my own hand but that does not mean its not part of my body

[rancid dagger]

it wasn't a few tendrils it was the void sea and creatures attacking hornet and causing chaos in pharloom

[ivory forum]

The knight is still very much one with the void

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah she was never officially absolved for her crimes

[rancid dagger]

yeah but if the knight had control over them he would just stop it, you dont need to stab your hand to not slap your friend

[sinful nimbus]

But she was killed

[heady brook]

but why would it, whats its motive if it even has any

[sinful nimbus]

There isn't one

[sour quartz]

either way i dont think its so bad. i see it like The Void is so massive that it still acts as power without unity when not focused. and the knight is sort of like, floating around in it like a brain with a circle of influence. so it cant exactly be everywhere at once…

alternatively, it IS everywhere at once, but it simply could not focus on its sister when it was too busy instinctually lashing out at the big yummy wad of higher being soulsilk floating in it. the knight physically dispersing the tendrils being sort of like taking allergy medication to quell your instinctual immune system, if that makes sense

[ivory forum]

I see it more like a swarm of bees

[sour quartz]

your immune system is still PART of you, but you arent consciously controlling it yknow

[rancid dagger]

you can see it however you like but it goes against what void heart was supposed to do, and im not saying this is a bad decision it's just conflictive with a main point in the first game

[terse warren]

best gameplay but worst lore

[rancid dagger]

i did like the void having more implication in the story and showing very explicitly that it isn't just "light bad dark good" like some people thought from the first game

[steep talon]

Well okay, let's say knight is in dirt mouth and they have void heart. If somehow a bug stumbled into a void lake, big assumption I know, should they be able to stop void tendrils from attacking this bug?

[past cypress]

So what's the deal with Widow then? Is there anything hinting at what her crime was?

[rancid dagger]

the void heart description states that the void is unified under the bearer's will

[heady brook]

There is such a great amount of void maybe its not super easy to control every bit of void in the universe so tk thought its the fastest way to stop it since it just arrived in time

[past cypress]

I'm assuming it was the citadel that put the pins in her (rather than GMS punishing her like she did First Sinner)

[rancid dagger]

which is to say, the void acts as the knight pleases it to act

[rancid dagger]

it wouldn't have to attack the tendrils though

[steep talon]

Which would mean dead bug?

[foggy fractal]

have you seen the acmi stuff yet
they released images of the silksong map as it developed, dating back to even 2017

[left dune]

yea which means the bearer can decide whether or not it wants to control the void or not so maybe the knight decided not to and then realised it was too late to control the void and it had to attack

[ivory forum]

The knight is a big asshole dude ate godhome out of his own volition

[sinful nimbus]

Not really

[rancid dagger]

that just doesn't make sense you can't choose not to control your arms

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe the other weavers mutilated her for her devotion to GMS

Or the conductors did it since they didn't like weavers

[rancid dagger]

you can think it's a good thing that they took this direction with the void i dont disagree but it goes directly against void heart's entire concept

[foggy fractal]

first sinner was caught jaywalking

[left dune]

alright so why can he choose not to in hollow knight its not like there's contantly a menu on screen after getting void heart that shows what the void is doing so you can control it

[rancid dagger]

also against the void given focus ending which seems to be cannon

[heady brook]

perhaps to quickly free hornet and lace attacking could be faster since we dont know how tk's control works over the void exactly

[past cypress]

First Sinner taken out the back for going 42 in a 40

[gentle aspen]

“Maybe the knight decided not to”
Why???
“Realized it was too late to control the void”
????

[rancid dagger]

???? the void is doing nothing

[sinful nimbus]

TK controlled the void like limbs in HK

It can't do that in SS for one reason or another

[left dune]

you just said the knight cant stop controlling it

[rancid dagger]

the control is literally control

[gentle aspen]

idk they’d just lampshade it as “oh its not the void they united so”

[rancid dagger]

the knight IS the void after acquiring void heart

[sour quartz]

well i disagree with this point specifically
or rather i think both godhome endings and dream no more are equally schrodingers canon

[rancid dagger]

you can stop moving your arm

[steep talon]

The void? You mean the void in them

[sinful nimbus]

No

[heady brook]

there are millions of ways to control something

[graceful grail]

The Knight and the vessels were given focus when TK molded them into their shells which is what gives them their focus. Then without the shell they still keep that same form as a shade.

In HK Maskmaker says that your shell (or mask if you dont have one) is what directs your thoughts.

[rancid dagger]

i'd agree with dream no more being equally cannon IF the void given focus hadn't been shown

[sinful nimbus]

The entire void in Hollow Knight after getting Void Heart

[sinful nimbus]

tbf both ending forms are shown so it could be either

[steep talon]

Well no, I don't think it ever controlled void lake like limbs, whatever that means. They shed their shell and beat the shit out of radiance with their own void

[edgy nebula]

just finished the game, DAAAMMMMNNNN!!!!!!!!

[sinful nimbus]

Multiple void tendrils grab Radiance and stuff in her fight

[sour quartz]

i think they were very particular with showing it in dream no more form and flashing void given focus like a vision, allowing for the interpretation of it being like, the knights potential or implied “true essence within”

[sinful nimbus]

Which would be at TK's own command

[past cypress]

"Finished the game" as in killed GMS?

[graceful grail]

Yes, Shade Lord only shows up when it is attuned by Godseeker. Now godseeker is dead after.

[rancid dagger]

i think it's that as the void given focus it can manifest in whichever form

[edgy nebula]

act 3

[steep talon]

Yeah, in a dream?

[past cypress]

Nice

[sinful nimbus]

Not sure why Void Given Form couldn't either

[past cypress]

I've yet to do Lost Lace cuz I'm exploring

[gentle aspen]

that’s not relevant

[sinful nimbus]

Its an aesthetic thing

[rancid dagger]

yeah but void given focus wouldn't be a thing at all without god home ending

[sinful nimbus]

Because of void heart 🥴

[rancid dagger]

maybe im too digimon pilled

[past cypress]

Too many bosses can block your attacks ong

[heady brook]

like 3

[steep talon]

Well, I mean they don't control void lake like limbs though, it just doesn't attack them

[sour quartz]

im not so sure. i think its a pretty reasonable implication that the knights shade with voidheart living in the void sea and backed by a bajillion other shades would probably manifest with a similar vibe to void given focus

[rancid dagger]

because there's nothing to attack if it doesn't attack the knight

[graceful grail]

Hit them right before an attack, or right after, they cant block for that time.

You can beat Karmaleta without her blocking you once

[rancid dagger]

either way it's just the charm description, unifies the void under the bearer's will

[foggy fractal]

Star afaik the knight just goes and chills in the abyss after dnm right

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[foggy fractal]

awesome

[sinful nimbus]

Probably with ETV too

[foggy fractal]

yeah

[rancid dagger]

i guess so but if they wanted to make the cannon ambiguous i think not showing the shade lord would've been a better idea
but yeah i guess we can think of them both equally cannon

[sour quartz]

but if you dont show the shade lord at all then that feels like not at all acknowledging the godhome endings

[gentle aspen]

That still doesn’t matter? Void lake vs void they bring over there isn’t a differenfe

[heady brook]

didnt the shade lord exist before the knight, so the knight just took its place no?

[steep talon]

Smh, they should have showed THK being happy to acknowledge the endidng

[sour quartz]

also the conversation has long shifted away from this but i wanted 2 give my 2 cents on it

[foggy fractal]

also can you explain to me how the siblings and the void shows up in the radiance fights

[trim vector]

so did the gms just trap and murder every weaver in pharloom?

[sinful nimbus]

I guess they can just materialize out of the void? I'm not sure tbh

[sinful nimbus]

not just in Pharloom

[steep talon]

Oh, I guess. I always just thought the void that seeps down in that ending is just from TK and THK.

[sour quartz]

i think the snail shamans were definitely tied to void in hollow knight. its just that How they were was very unclear. they appeared to be made of the stuff based off of their particle effects and what their weird body juice does with our spells, but also clearly unaffiliated with AT LEAST the abyss, but it could be interpreted to be unaffiliated with void as a whole, somehow

i think silksong making them out to be void fanatics who dont dare go down to the abyss themselves works at answering the mystery around them imo

[trim vector]

why did she leave widow and the first sinner alive though? And why'd she never go after hera the beast?

[rancid dagger]

shadelord is the void given focus under a unified will as far as i understand, and since that hadn't happened before then no i'd say it didn't

[sinful nimbus]

First sinner is dead (The fight takes place in a dream if you look closely)

I'd guess they maybe haven't gotten around to widow

[terse warren]

Widow was actually being subservient so... No clue

[rancid dagger]

actually ima go further and say godhome ending is a little more cannon since they didn't show THK's shade

[steep talon]

Associate themselves with void, use soul for spells. Are they stupid?

[foggy fractal]

no the knight is the shade lord
even in base game its the shade lord after getting the void heart

[sour quartz]

theyre just a little bit sillay

[green yoke]

I can believe this, but i'd like to see the evidence just to be sure

[sour quartz]

i think they definitely use both like the freaks they are. i mean the big trap from silksong used both

[rancid dagger]

if you die you dont lose rosaries, recover tools and you dont lose steel soul or form a coccoon
that only happens in memories

[terse warren]

The Shamans are not made of Void, and we are just taking their Souls and using our Void to upgrade our spells

[radiant badger]

Yo chat quick question. How the hell do the pilgrims start at bonebottom. Like do they all fall from the bridge

[steep talon]

If you die you also just respawn outside of the cell. As if you were in a dream all this time and didn't actually die

[rancid dagger]

i took the soul snare as using soul to open a portal to the void, but not using void itself

[terse warren]

Oh you don't lose steel soul? Damn guess I was too goated to ever find that out

[heady brook]

oh okay then the void was unified for the first time, but then why does radiance call it ancient enemy

[sour quartz]

i meant “appeared to be” very literally. like based specifically on their appearance and particles and stuff they superficially Look very voidy. which i think was on purpose

[terse warren]

Karmelita kicked my ass tho

[green yoke]

See that does track, but we don't use the Needolin to enter it, nor does there seem to be any indication that we've crossed into a dream. It's very subtle

[rancid dagger]

yeah, you dont lose steel soul there or on memories like the coral tower or (thank god) karmelita

[sinful nimbus]

In Silksong dreams are indicated by the very dark environments with silk strewn about, First Sinner's arena doesn't look like this until you bind her and then it transitions to one

[gentle aspen]

vessels are ancient

[terse warren]

Hornet's body is also black is she Void

[sinful nimbus]

HK also had something similar going on with the lifeblood core thing tbf

[sonic sleet]

what is the name of ||shakra duel theme|| I can't find it anywhere and it's not in ost

[green yoke]

Faaaacts actually

[chrome bay]

Is it me or the final boss of ss is eazy than the final boss of HK ?

[sour quartz]

cmon bruh dont be facetious youre acting like the snail shamans arent literally canonically tied to void

[terse warren]

They weren't in the first game lol

[sinful nimbus]

Eeeeeeerm technicallyu 🤓 white lady says Hornet's family is tied to void therefore she is

[rancid dagger]

void worship =/= physical relation with void

[green yoke]

Radiance: cheap area denial via swords, spikes and platforms

Lace: reaction baiting via jumps and parries.

Depends on what hits you worse

[terse warren]

Normal Radiance wasn't that hard, certainly not harder than Lost Lace

[sinful nimbus]

I liked Radiance's area denial

[chrome bay]

All the body of the bugs are black so I don't think soo

[steep talon]

Two explode into what looks like void particles and give enhanced void spells. I think there might be an association here

[rancid dagger]

their body being black never implied anything just like zote isn't a vessel or Lace isn't void despite being black

[foggy fractal]

yeah adding on to this the area changes as soon as First Sinner hops out and then changes right back after you defeat her
look closely at the floor specifically imo

[sinful nimbus]

Its very lenient and its a platformer so it makes sense

[heady brook]

are they? Maybe old but ancient? I think it refers to void and not vessels since its current enemy is also a vessel aka the hollow knight and it wouldn't make sense to call it ancient enemy since it's its current one

[rancid dagger]

which act's final boss

[flint wadi]

lace read me like a book for more times than id like to admit

[terse warren]

The Void spells are made by us, not them, there's dialogue explicitly saying so.

[sinful nimbus]

Hallownest is an ancient ruin and vessels were from its golden age

Radiance has had adversarial encounters with vessels in the past too

[rancid dagger]

we take something from the shamans and mix it with our own void to make the void spells

[foggy fractal]

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️ ohohohoho !!!

[gentle aspen]

they are
hallownest was an ancient kingdom, long dead

[sour quartz]

i dont think snail shamans are literally Made Of Void like if you took a syringe and extracted their blood itd be void thats not what im saying
but i feel its not at all an unreasonable assumption that the guys who explode into black particles and result in us gaining void spells are meant to make the player go “hmm i wonder if they have something to do with void”

[chrome bay]

I don't mean radiance but the absolute (I died 50 time him) but the list lace just3times

[rancid dagger]

how many times have you had to copy this dialogue lmao

[terse warren]

Absolute is DLC

[foggy fractal]

as many times as I need to

[sinful nimbus]

I mean its clarified they weren't in the first game so

[sour quartz]

even if its not LITERALLY that THEY ARE LITERALLY VOID AND FUSE WITH OUR SPELLS

[sinful nimbus]

Of course SS came along and changed this

[chrome bay]

List lise

[steep talon]

My point is there is an association with void here

[terse warren]

There really is none

[green yoke]

I mean she exploits the habits you're trained to form over your playthrough. Dashing around to stay mobile? She'll pop out in your path. Dash away from counterattacks? She'll still hit you. Try to jump over normal attacks? She'll hit you with a jump

[rancid dagger]

vessels are ancient but the radiance is the void's enemy by virtue of existing as a being of light

[gentle aspen]

The association is a result of the player character

[steep talon]

I agree. But I was saying they are associated with void

[heady brook]

I thought golden age was before the the radiance's infection and there were no vessels back then

[rancid dagger]

they really weren't

[sinful nimbus]

I mean the kingdom was still kicking while Rad was sealed

[smoky jacinth]

Widow was working directly from her, and was pretty much neutralized in different ways(mentally, her mask was removed, she was unable to produce silk)

[rancid dagger]

lost lace is defo not easier than radiance you probably just got better since you fought radiance

[sinful nimbus]

For void to be Rad's ancient enemy she probably would've had to have encountered it in the past

[heady brook]

yes void and the radiance are way more ancient than vessels

[terse warren]

Golden Age was when everyone worked together to seal Rad, rather than everyone being an isolationist prick

[flint wadi]

its really good, punishing bad habits like that makes for a very engaging boss

[foggy fractal]

I mean even if we do say that they are void the contradiction still doesn't go away
unless we assume that the Snail Shaman in hk is just lying, which we don't have evidence for

[sour quartz]

i feel like you have to be intentionally ignoring things to say theres no association

[sinful nimbus]

There wasn't one in HK

[gentle aspen]

Note how the single upgraded spell we get from the void has the shaman explicitly disavow any connection to the stuff

[sinful nimbus]

Like its spelled out

[sour quartz]

like, to me, saying snail shamans have no association with void is like saying hornet has no visual association with vessels based off of the simple fact that its spelled out that she isnt one

[sinful nimbus]

"Unique expressive way"
"New power"

[green yoke]

I never felt like any of it was cheap (excluding perhaps her just kind of appearing in my face for contact damage but even then I was like "I should stop moving around so much")

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Abyss Shriek

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

@kingoclowns used /npcs quest name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Abyss Shriek

[sour quartz]

even though hornet very much does have a visual association with vessels

[foggy fractal]

🗣️ ohohoho !!!!

[sour quartz]

and its because shes our half sister

[heady brook]

alright im just speculating but you are probably right im not really a lore expert

[flint wadi]

yeah 2 mask contact damage punishing bad spacing is kind of ss' flaw as a whole

[rancid dagger]

i'd argue you could say there was an implied association IF the snail shaman didn't say "wherever you found that power" implying he has no clue where it comes from

[steep talon]

I mean ability to cast void spells are from knight, but we take something from them and then learn to cast void spells from knight, I think it at least counts as an association

[sinful nimbus]

Very tenuous

[gentle aspen]

Yeah we learn how to meld our essence with the spell from them

[sinful nimbus]

The void is related to the knight rather than the shamans who are spelled out to be unfamiliar with the substance

[gentle aspen]

Thats not a shaman void association

[rancid dagger]

her visual association comes by virtue of the game's character design, but that's like saying zote is related to vessels because he looks like one

[gentle aspen]

Claiming it as such is fallacious

[green yoke]

There's a case to be made that they weren't being fully truthful, but it's difficult to say that with any degree of seriousness since there's zero way to judge intent when they're an inexpressive blob

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet actually resembles the vessels snail shamans do not resemble void in any meaningful manner

[gentle aspen]

there’s like no reason to assume they lied for no reason

[sour quartz]

he is, though. zote is definitely narritively associated with vessels like extremely obviously

[gentle aspen]

there’s no case

[sour quartz]

his whole joke is that he looks like a vessel

[foggy fractal]

ok lets say the snails are void

hk snails: Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

ss snails: Don't play daft. You should well know our family's fixations. Surely you had a hunch ?

these lines still contradict RAGH...

[rancid dagger]

yeah someone said that earlier but you can't really go against our only source of information
plus at that time the snail shaman had no reason to lie about that

[green yoke]

The only reason I can make is that it's taboo and speaking plainly about it just "isn't done"

[sour quartz]

like, zotes existence as some random guy who has nothing to do with anything and isnt a vessel doesnt change the fact that as a character design hes meant to make the player go “that guy looks like a vessel and thats funny”

[sinful nimbus]

Seems like sloppy writing

[cinder storm]

My guess it was sent to pursue the Seamstress after the Citadel turned against the Pinmasters.

[sinful nimbus]

Yes elderbug would be a better example

[foggy fractal]

this is more of a meta reference than a in-universe association tho

[sinful nimbus]

Fun fact Grey Prince Zote's arena has the abyss ambience

[terse warren]

TC dropped the pen in Bilewater

[sour quartz]

and he exudes void particles dont he

[heady brook]

if snail shamans were void wouldn't someone had to create them?

[foggy fractal]

they didn't write shit for Bilewater
well ig they did but it wasn't really allat important to the plot

[sinful nimbus]

I love Bilewater 🗣️ Silksoing should've been aboutr Pollution 🔥 Fly my octane spirit weaver 💯

[nimble vault]

could it be that hk snails are disconnected from their ancestry in some way (that they aren't even aware of) so they aren't aware of void stuff but the pharloom snails aren't disconnected? it is a massive stretch

[steep talon]

Bretta seen the abyss lmao

[cinder storm]

Phantom:

[terse warren]

No I'm saying it fell in the water and that's why it's sloppy

[foggy fractal]

mmm yummy slop

[green yoke]

I'd call that less outright "bad writing" and more "reusing assets in a place that suits them can be confusing"

[rancid dagger]

what about elderbug then

[sour quartz]

bretta watched the knight fall face first into vines until it had 1 mask and was doing its idle low health void leaking animation

[steep talon]

Lmao

[terse warren]

I don't think that's the bad writing star is talking about 😭

[sinful nimbus]

No this is good writing its funny

[foggy fractal]

ok that is lore
but is it important to the plot
like you could go your playthrough without ever seeing her

[rancid dagger]

nah that's just Bretta thirsting for the knight and then thirsting for zote

[gentle aspen]

Missable boss isn’t important to the plot

[green yoke]

My bad, I'm too used to you complaining about details like that lol

[heady brook]

maybe the snail shaman in hollow knight has dementia and forgot that its void

[sinful nimbus]

The shade

The nerve

[lethal burrow]

how do pilgrims come from bone bottom like where- how did they get there? Why is that the place they start that does not seem like a normal place to end up if anything they would start in Shellwood.

It seems weird that somebody would be down there as well

[rancid dagger]

phantom being lace's sister and the discarded daughter of GMS is pretty relevant tbh

[cinder storm]

It is important to Lace's lore with how they tie into her existence, especially in the Needolin dialogue.

[gentle aspen]

It’s not

[sinful nimbus]

Phantom is cool but it'd be cooler if she was a kitsune like I theorized

[green yoke]

Comparing the world to the real one: bugs live plenty far into the ground. Could just be that they hit the "wall of sentience" that GMS brought

[rancid dagger]

a boss being missable or not doesn't mean it's relevant or not to the plot, trobbio isn't relevant to the main plot and he's a forced fight

[nimble vault]

LMAO true true

[sour quartz]

elderbug id say has no intentionally drawn associations at all, save for the vague similar appearances. which is you guyses point about the snail shamans i understand, but i dont think i can be shaken from my opinion that the snail shaman corpses exploding into black orbs that give you void spells is made to make you go 🤨 instead of just like. being something team cherry did with NO IDEA that ANYONE could POSSIBLY ever associate the two substances

[terse warren]

Phantom is cool but it'd be cooler if the game didn't have any GMS slander

[green yoke]

Wait, there's lava never mind

[sinful nimbus]

Phantom is cool but it'd be cooler if the game didn't have any GMS

[lethal burrow]

Why are you phrasing this like grandmother silk has a pale king beacon

[foggy fractal]

well
The Snails in Silksong mention how Hornet should've known that their family had a fixation for the Void, saying this would imply that its a well known thing, and if it was that well known than the Snail Shaman in HK should've known too because I'd argue that he would be more knowledgeable in his own kind than Hornet

[steep talon]

I guess? Its like added detail. It's not like Lace has a crazy character arc that involves remembering Phantom or something.

[terse warren]

Hkmain is cool but it'd be cooler if everyone had my opinion

[sinful nimbus]

hkmain isn't cool

[green yoke]

Isn't that just the nature of Higher beings like Pale King and the Radiance

[sinful nimbus]

Name one sunshine and rainbow

[gentle aspen]

No

[lethal burrow]

no

[sinful nimbus]

Just wyrms

[terse warren]

Andy

[gentle aspen]

Thats a wyrm thing

[sinful nimbus]

🗣️

[green yoke]

Is the radiance a Wyrm?

[lethal burrow]

The radiance thing isn't even that similar to the beacon

[gentle aspen]

No

[rancid dagger]

i take that as you mixing your void with whatever you take from the shaman, just like when you get howling wraiths there are no black particles because you arent mixing void into it

[lethal burrow]

no, she's a motha

[terse warren]

No that's GMS

[gentle aspen]

She made the moths she isn’t one herself

[terse warren]

Radiance is a moth, not a mother

[sinful nimbus]

eeeeerm she's not a moth either like the nerd above me pointed out

[lethal burrow]

I didn't say she was a moth

[green yoke]

Then honestly why aren't you asking why ANY bugs in Pharloom are aware, rather than just the pilgrims in Bone Bottom

[foggy fractal]

if it was that relevant than you'd think Phantom would've played a bigger role in the plot
not to say it doesn't contribute to the lore

[heady brook]

she could be considered a mother since the moths are her descendants

[sour quartz]

which as it turns out, is the case ! thats what the snail shaman says is goin on. i just think that association does still exist in the back of the players minds and is what silksong built off of.

[terse warren]

Have you considered I disagree (I fumbled)

[sinful nimbus]

I think they were asking where pilgrims were born

[lethal burrow]

i'm not asking why they're aware to begin with

[sinful nimbus]

Definitely gotta be a slave town in Bonebottom fr

Squirrm type deal

[lethal burrow]

I'm just asking why they're down there in the first place.

Like that's not near the entrance to the kingdom or whatever

[steep talon]

Prolly just PK propaganda at play. Eternal kingdom and all that bullshit. Weird that monomon gasses up PK so much though

[gentle aspen]

Bad sense of direction

[sour quartz]

i think theres ways into bone bottom from around bone bottom

[foggy fractal]

🗣️ WAWAWAWAWAWA

[rancid dagger]

i mean sure but that's like saying soul master has no relevance because you can skip him, he's still part of the plot about the city of tears and the pale king's rule, just like phantom gives insight into the character of GMS

[sour quartz]

it seems pretty open down there

[sinful nimbus]

Pilgrims are apparently born in Pharloom since they inherited a buncha silk in their bodies (According to Caretaker)

[slow trail]

Yall I got a really important question

[green yoke]

Oh, I figured it more as a place that never had real inhabitants but is more just a stop on the way to GMS

[gentle aspen]

Phantom doesn’t do anything that Lace didn’t already do

[slow trail]

Which ending in hollow knight confirms that silksong happens?

[green yoke]

So no one "came from" bone bottom

[lethal burrow]

yeah, but like "a stop" from where there's not really any beginning place before bone bottom

[rancid dagger]

dream no more or either godhome ending

[lethal burrow]

dream no more or embrace the void.

[green yoke]

Sure there is, we just never see it, ezpz

[sinful nimbus]

Sealed Siblings

[uncut holly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkNx0BFhueM

[lethal burrow]

I don't think delicate flower ending really works

[uncut holly]

New skip

[lethal burrow]

ah just like how the vessels got out of the abyss

[gentle aspen]

All endings except the hollow knight

[slow trail]

Aight

[steep talon]

I guess the way I see it, the plot of ss is Hornet coming to terms with all the bullshit in her life. Lace acts as her foil and parallel. So having Phantom be another parallel to Lace doesn't add much in terms of plot, I would argue

[rancid dagger]

it does since the slightest bit of void disappearing with the godseeker doesn't mean the knight is gone

[sour quartz]

phantom exists just to show that the creation of lace wasnt a one and done thing and the flawed predecessor’s existence makes the whole “weaving a daughter thing” seem even more cruel id say

its just added context imo

[cloud plover]

but the shade lord is sealed away in godhome

[terse warren]

Notice how unlike Pilgrim's Rest getting destroyed, Bonebottom just moves to the Marrow. This is indicative of the fact that Flick is an alpha male and Mort is a beta who died almost instantly.

[untold tinsel]

guys what is the lore of ||the karaka and coral tower||?

[gentle aspen]

Ye

[green yoke]

More like we never see where Cornifer came from. He wasn't born in Dirtmouth probably

[foggy fractal]

another Mort L

[steep talon]

Watch the end of the video, lmao

[uncut holly]

Damn watched the full of the new Skip. Team Cherry WHY!

[sinful nimbus]

Why TC are bad devs

[rancid dagger]

you can leave godhome via dreamgate, and we dont really know if the knight with void heart can manifest anywhere with void since he was suddenly in pharloom in TE

[uncut holly]

Give us a secret third route!

[terse warren]

TC thought they were slick calling the dead shopkeeper "dead"

[heady brook]

Coral nice colorful but then big citadel evil coral dry out become sands

[gentle aspen]

Dream nail

[cloud plover]

i guess so

[uncut holly]

We have Last Judge, and we have Phantom, thats it. Heck we couldnt even do anything up there but it would be nice functionality

[sour quartz]

just a proud civilization that existed before the citadel was established and ate away their territory n ended up killin em off

[terse warren]

Can you not get into the citadel via slab

[uncut holly]

Would give Speedrunners more power, they still have to kill Widow but I guess we have to go through one of the funnels

No you cant get in via Slab

[foggy fractal]

oh yeah have y'all seen that footage (with the boss fight, cut sprites, and the cut cutscene we saw earlier on when game first released) of the removed abandoned ending
it seems like GMS fuses with Hornet ? odd

[rancid dagger]

i prefer to think it's godhome ending since we do see the shade lord for a glimpse AND we dont see THK's shade with the rest of the siblings

but dream no more can be equally cannon

[steep talon]

It wouldn't. You would have to go kill beastfly and conchflies which takes a lot of time. Phantom route is just too eficcient

[sinful nimbus]

If you shared more faith with him the Citadel's holy grace may have been enough to save him from the end of the world. Shame on you, 10k days in the Slab.

[uncut holly]

You can only get into the Citadel through Last Judge and getting all of the bells which most of them you pass by but require time to go ring them. Or you can go immediately to The Mist and beat Phantom to get into Underworks early

[sour quartz]

if its a godhome ending yall think thk is playin cards with elderbug rn

[gentle aspen]

Hanging with mom

[terse warren]

10k free days with my goat Old Penitent? Sign me up

[edgy ravine]

do we know if the weavers or ||grand mother silk|| was the first to visit pharloom?

[silk dirge]

til you cant go through wisp thicket

[uncut holly]

In terms of other skips when in the Citadel, you must kill Cogwork Dancers, and you must kill Trobbio there is no other way.

[gentle aspen]

Gms made the weavers lol

[silk dirge]

like literally team cherry blocks off wisp thicket until you get faydown cloak

[edgy ravine]

oh lols

[silk dirge]

theres an invisible wall

[uncut holly]

You also must get claw shot and you must beat the Forum room with the big gauntlet before Conductor Ballador

[rancid dagger]

bro's dealing with the lifeblood infection in deepnest 🔥

[silk dirge]

someone manage to do weird shit with beast crest

[sour quartz]

gulp!!

[heady brook]

you need wings for that no? And wings are through the slab and thats through the citadel

[sinful nimbus]

Why does TC hate sequence breaks

[silk dirge]

you can get to slab before citadel

[uncut holly]

You need wings and the game forces you to use wings to trigger entry

[sinful nimbus]

D tier metroidvania map design

[terse warren]

They hate metroidvanias

[lethal burrow]

it doesn't not mean that.

[sour quartz]

me tier

[foggy fractal]

TC hates TC

[edgy ravine]

so was the citadel built around gms?

[silk dirge]

well id guess if you went to citadel through wisp thicker a bunch of shit would break

[sinful nimbus]

After Silksong I do too

[heady brook]

oh right i forgot the capture

[sour quartz]

yes

[uncut holly]

I mean TC loves sequence breaks, look at Hollow Knight. But Silk Song seems very particular with its acts

[lethal burrow]

yeah, but the entrance to pharloom is above bone bottom

[teal drift]

I wish they allowed us to cut through wisp thicket

[sinful nimbus]

boo womp that's ool

[uncut holly]

Hollow Knight you can go anywhere if your able

[rancid dagger]

? if it's left ambiguous then it means that the flower ending can be cannon

[teal drift]

Even with skips

[rancid dagger]

only way flower ending couldn't be cannon is if it was objectively proven that the knight disappears / is sealed in godhome

[silk dirge]

bc if you got to citadel through wisp thicker you could skip needolin

[uncut holly]

And in OG Hollow Knight with Abyssal Shriek you can fly, now Abyss Shriek is later on but still you can fly with it

[sour quartz]

the pilrgimage defo canonically goes thru everything in act 1, rather than across the bridge from the intro

[edgy ravine]

and what was the reason for gms wanting hornet to be captured? i understand she wanted her for silk, but why did she need this? was it to wake her up?

[heady brook]

thats true for silksong, you can go anywhere if you are able

[sour quartz]

so whatever the reason, we do know for Sure that the pilgrimage always starts around bone bottom

[green yoke]

AN entrance

[sour quartz]

like outside of gameplay

[uncut holly]

Yeah but as seen we cant go to Whisp Thicket until we hit a flag that states we got the double jump

[sinful nimbus]

I skipped the ability to HEAL in ori 2 on my first playthrough and I literally never noticed anything was wrong. This would've been fine

[teal drift]

Gms is sleepy and weakened. Weaver demigods infused with her power is good for refueling her.

[uncut holly]

Even if we get in there by other means, and we cant get into the Citadel unless its specifically by killing Last Judge or Phantom

[silk dirge]

i mean you literally wouldnt be able to progress bc needolin is needed for progression

[sinful nimbus]

its a metroidvania you could just grab the needolin later 😭

[steep talon]

Don't thinks so. There is only one exit from underworks, for that point in the game, so Lace cutscene would still play. The only thing is if needolin works weirdly with melodies, but seems like a simple thing to account for

[rancid dagger]

i think it comes by virtue of dividing the game in acts but i agree they shouldn't be preventing sequence breaks with barriers

[foggy fractal]

the whole void in dream realm stuff is weird
like how did the void/siblings get into the radiance fights ?
plus the everbloom can repel the void, not straight up delete it

[teal drift]

Well… the game does literally guide you into freeing bellhart

[sinful nimbus]

Its like if deepnest was blocked off if you didn't have dream nail

[gentle aspen]

icl its lame as hell almost all the weavers seem to be dead

[silk dirge]

id imagine team cherry probably didnt program in what happens if you somehow reach the threefold melody dudes without the needolin

[heady brook]

i agree hollow knight is more open than silksong it was just funny how you phrased it

[rancid dagger]

if you dont want me over there make the terrain so i don't get there, if i do get there anyway then dont block me lol

[uncut holly]

I also dont think theres a Cogwork Dancers skip, which its a great boss but you cant skip it speed runner wise. You might be able to skip Trobbio but I dont think so

[teal drift]

So if you get stuck, just free bellhart rhen go back to the citadel

I think theres a glitch for throbbio bur not sure

[gentle aspen]

Tk brings it in

[silk dirge]

anyways its not like its that stupid bc the only way to get in wisp thicket without double jump in the first place was beast crest jank that almost definitely is a bug

[sinful nimbus]

These are the guys who programmed unique dialogue for Quirrel if you beat Uumuu with no dream nail

[rancid dagger]

yeah the everbloom thing is something i was talking about yesterday here

[uncut holly]

Technically you can ignore Belhart with Phantom I think

[silk dirge]

true

[foggy fractal]

best thing I got for you my boy is the cradle dialogue 🗣️

Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, frail with age. Tracked and taken in Sandsea Waste. Seven Choristors, nine Envoys lost to task.

Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, mortally wounded. Tracked and taken in the Blackbarrens. Four Choristors, one Reed lost to task.

Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service. Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel. Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task.

[uncut holly]

I think

[silk dirge]

but anyways like i said its not like anyone is doing it

[gentle aspen]

So lame

[silk dirge]

the beast crest jank you need to do is so specific

[teal drift]

The mist wont let you out if you dont have needolin

[uncut holly]

Wait you cant ignore Belhart ever, you need the Needolin to get to GMS

[rancid dagger]

they programmed a dialogue with Eva if you come overdosed in lifeblood/cursed

[sour quartz]

oh actually this is embarrassing but i never actually got this

[uncut holly]

Yeah, also you wouldnt be able to get the melodies

[rancid dagger]

yeah just like you need dream nail in HK

needolin is skong's dream nail

[silk dirge]

and its not like it helps speedruns that much bc you still need needolin for any%

[sinful nimbus]

Its not about the speedruns its about the principle

[rancid dagger]

all the more reason to not prevent random sequence breaks

[sinful nimbus]

What if I want to get to wisp thicket early for laughs

[sour quartz]

what exactly was gms grabbing weaver offspring for? was she intending to siphon their power? this was my assumption but i kind of lost track of that plotline

[uncut holly]

I dont think Citadel can be optimized much more than besides pathing maybe

[heady brook]

you need needolin for the sick beats tho

[silk dirge]

have fun doing beast crest jank

[rancid dagger]

if i can get to a place i should be able to explore that place, things shouldnt be artificially blocked

[spark valve]

the craftmetal in question

[sinful nimbus]

Like how you can get dream nail before dash

[foggy fractal]

yeah that sounds right
and then the void just seeps all the way back to the abyss after they get out, I don't see how this logic wouldn't work for etv so I'll just assume it happens for both instances (etv, dnm)

what happens to the knight if it does get everbloomed in etv tho, ig we don't really have an answer for that ?

[uncut holly]

I mean its huge, theres definitely a preferred path you could take through Citadel

[sinful nimbus]

See there's even an incentive

[foggy fractal]

nah nah nah trust we'll get all 3 of these locations as DLC
TRUST.

[teal drift]

I do wish there were more sequence breaks in skong but i dont despise that the acts are pretty restrictive

[sinful nimbus]

Don't want to risk dying to Moorwing? Go through Wisp Thicket to grab a craftmetal and head to the Citadel so you can get architects crest and cogflies so you can safely tool spam your way through to Bellhart

[silk dirge]

act 3 is pretty linear but like so is endgame hk

i think the midgame is when metroidvanias really shine

[foggy fractal]

how early can you get cogflies

[rancid dagger]

little bit of void disappears with godseeker
Case 1: godhome is destroyed with the knight inside, the knight gets out via dream gate (or manifests somewhere else in the void if that's possible)
Case 2: godhome is not destroyed, just can't be accessed again, the knight gets out

[silk dirge]

so like act 2 is when theres so many different options

[sour quartz]

^ do someone got an answer 4 this ….

[lethal burrow]

Wait, what is it?

[sinful nimbus]

You need harpoon and then its fair game I think?

[uncut holly]

I mean from my knowledge, you have to go to the right from the start of the game and get the float in Far Fields. You can skip Fourth Chorus but you need to go right and get the float to then go around and go to Widow one way or another.

[steep talon]

High halls, requires harpoon

[teal drift]

Gl navigating underworks without wall jumping

[terse warren]

Tbh you could just use flea caravan

[uncut holly]

Maybe you could go up through the intial drop chasm to skip Moorwing and Greymoor?

[steep talon]

No clue

[sinful nimbus]

Ahh, but her mind is still locked to you. That final, powerful protection stays in place.

If you would attempt to break her seal, you've first to discover the means to open a mind. Such tools may exist to perform the feat, though in my own travels I've not come across one.
I'd heard it told the Kingdom's moths did delve amongst dreams and the dead. Perhaps you'd seek them out?

[heady brook]

do the fleas and you wont die

[rancid dagger]

widow says something about sustaining her light with song

[foggy fractal]

Moorwing took me a few attempts I heard that they nerfed it also ?

[sinful nimbus]

Well gathering fleas is also risky its safer going through wisp thicket and the citadel

[silk dirge]

if you dont want to risk dying the moorwing have fun bc the way you get up there requires you beat savage beastfly

[terse warren]

You can use wormways to skip Lace 1

[uncut holly]

Hmmm

[sour quartz]

i see

[uncut holly]

Wait how?

[heady brook]

no way its not

[steep talon]

You could just go through wormways, it plops you at shellwood

[silk dirge]

so you arent really doing anything less risky

[rancid dagger]

then that should be the roadblock that makes you turn around, not an invisible wall

[silk dirge]

savage beastfly seems way more risky than moorwing

[foggy fractal]

I'm so sad that I didn't get cogflies till like the last stretch of the game because I spent all my craftmetal on everything else

[gentle aspen]

Even then

[silk dirge]

also can we talk about how moorwing is canonically a giant flying rat

[foggy fractal]

give me godhome pls 😭

[sour quartz]

i fear routing discussion would b better fit in a different channel

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah savage beastfly is the most risky part of the maneuver I suggested

[steep talon]

Conchflies are aids too, needed for charged attack

[foggy fractal]

these dlcs will all have weaver bosses TRUST

[sour quartz]

one bred to kill anyone trying to run away from work at that

horrifying

[gentle aspen]

I feel like powerscaling insanity

[sinful nimbus]

Steel master is a weaver staked to service

[gentle aspen]

mm1 infinitely less sane than mm2

[sinful nimbus]

mm2 so goated

[silk dirge]

giant flying rat pinkerton

[uncut holly]

I think getting the run at deep docks and float is too important you are gonna need to get it anyway, but the fact you can sequence break the bottom level of the world is cool

[gentle aspen]

Pharloom’s mask maker at least can lock in and be lucid with their mask off

[sour quartz]

megaman 2…

[sinful nimbus]

Mask Maker and Skynx are the typa callbacks I like

[heady brook]

who would win the knight or superman

[silk dirge]

wild shit

[gentle aspen]

The fuck is up with the first one

[gentle aspen]

just babbling metaphorical nonsense

[steep talon]

It even has blinds. Like how Mongolians put blindfolds on their eagles to train them

[terse warren]

Shoutout to Pinstresses for being the Nailmasters but with literally no lore

[sinful nimbus]

They have lore 💔

[foggy fractal]

oh yeah about that cradle dialogue
are the weavers being taken from those areas to Pharloom or taken to those locations

[sour quartz]

pharloom in its prime sounds so damn nightmarish

[silk dirge]

also is it true you can skip the 2nd savage beastfly quest and literally fight a fucking

lost beastfly

[sour quartz]

the former

[sinful nimbus]

Second Sentinels are based off of them and they apparently used their teachings against the pinstresses at one point

[steep talon]

What?

[sinful nimbus]

To pharloom

[gentle aspen]

well, one of them’s dead

[nimble bronze]

dont we already know 2 of the locations? "Sandsea waste" sounds a bit too close to blasted steps, and "land below city of steel" probably fits for bellhart, where we find the weaver who out of the 3 captured is still in service (widow)

[gentle aspen]

That’s the lore

[sour quartz]

oh i didnt catch that

[sinful nimbus]

yes

[silk dirge]

horrifying

[sour quartz]

the second sentinels thing i mean

[rancid dagger]

they based the sentinels on them and im pretty sure they trained every combat bug in the citadel

[heady brook]

city of steel could be where the steal assasins live

[rancid dagger]

and then they were hunted down (which i think is the reason why forth chorus is trapped close to seamstress)

[silk dirge]

i feel bad for people who had to fight forebrothers sigma and grok signis and gron in act 3

[terse warren]

Exactly, only 2 people to talk to instead of 4 like Nailmasters

[gentle aspen]

More important than the nailmasters already

[sour quartz]

but yeah they were the template for the citadels pinfighting prowess and then they were betrayed by the citadel after they were no longer deemed useful and were loose ends

[gentle aspen]

Sly is a sage

[terse warren]

Seamstress is just Sheo but again 🥀

[silk dirge]

like thats gotta be painful

[sinful nimbus]

They're both insufferable too

[gentle aspen]

Don’t insult my goat

[sinful nimbus]

At least Sheo was gay what does Seamstress have going for her

[nimble bronze]

I kind of assumed it referred to the citadel as a whole, but I suppose "steel" connects directly with the steel bugs too

[gentle aspen]

she gave us umbrella cloak

[rancid dagger]

sheo is the goat seamstress can get squashed by 4th chorus for all i care

[lethal burrow]

worms ways through the mist is statistically somebody's first route through the game

[sour quartz]

she gave us funny princess peach dress

[silk dirge]

how do you know shes not lesbian

[gentle aspen]

She hates us

how lesbian if hate women?

[silk dirge]

maybe hornets just not her type

[rancid dagger]

she doesnt engage in long passionate kisses with hornet

[sinful nimbus]

Any lesbian worth their salt knows that fighting is based

[gentle aspen]

wrong

[rancid dagger]

my type is grandmother silk 🔥

[gentle aspen]

if hornet isn’t your type you ain’t lesbian

[terse warren]

Shakra ✅
Lace ✅
Hornet ✅
Garmond (honorary) ✅

[sour quartz]

what if you just have bad taste

[gentle aspen]

This is confirmed by the lore

[silk dirge]

this homophobia is wild

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is annoying

[terse warren]

Phantom too

[gentle aspen]

No, you are

Blocked

[steep talon]

This is homophobic

[silk dirge]

cant have anyone be your type if your ace

pro life tips

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet isn't a lesbian Lacenet got taken out back and shot

[sour quartz]

oh right do you guys know if garmond uses they/them pronouns cos i got this idea instilled frum the game but i remember way back when on the blog they were described with he/him

[rancid dagger]

hornet telling the caretaker that domination seems appealing but then hating when Styx wants to be dominated 🔥
massive lesbian

[sour quartz]

old bug pronoun discourse START

[sinful nimbus]

Garmond is a dude

[silk dirge]

phantom gives big they/she vibes

[heady brook]

well steel is never mentioned as a material and since team cherry promised us that we will see that steel guy i'd assume thats what the city of steel is about

[timber pond]

Lace is literally a fuckin marionette.

[sinful nimbus]

People saw that he was referred to with they one time and thought those were his pronouns

[steep talon]

He and they used interchangeably

[foggy fractal]

nah it doesn't really work
plus the dialogue captializes these names, suggesting that they aren't just descrptions of already existing areas, PLUS we don't hear mentions of these names anywhere else

[timber pond]

Literally Pinocchio

[terse warren]

That's what honorary means smh

[gentle aspen]

They’re not

[sinful nimbus]

Godseekers be from the land o storms

[silk dirge]

they look nothing alike

[rancid dagger]

the godseekers come from the land of storms

[gentle aspen]

they’re from a separate location entirely

[foggy fractal]

yeah Godseekers come from the land of storms this is false

[silk dirge]

is the land of storms seattle

[sinful nimbus]

i wasn't TALKING TO YOU, i KNOW he's a LESBIAN GIRLBOSS but those aren't his PRONOUNS

[tacit bridge]

Damn /:

[sinful nimbus]

why did joker delte that 1984

[steep talon]

It's Australia, during fall

[rancid dagger]

the entire lore chat arguing until someone who can be corrected comes in:

[heady brook]

It was a good theory tho

[foggy fractal]

literally 1984

[sour quartz]

i imagine they do use the same metal in universe though

[rancid dagger]

mod abuse

[gentle aspen]

Delete what

[sour quartz]

wonder if its bronze or gold

[sinful nimbus]

gaslightihg

[silk dirge]

the hoker

[foggy fractal]

nah it ain't !!! whats the evidence ? that they look similar ? smh

[gentle aspen]

I didn’t do that

[rancid dagger]

reminds me of home

[terse warren]

That's wrong everyone is talking to me because I'm the only important person

[gentle aspen]

I don’t delete people when they’re wrong

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah buddy how about you give me mod perms so I can see the logs for myself

[steep talon]

Still 1984

[heady brook]

I mean i didn't say i agree i just thought it was a good theory, i kinda liked it

[gentle aspen]

Not working again, miss.

[rancid dagger]

flukes are void because they look like the headless things in the void 🔥

[foggy fractal]

our definitions of what a good theory is is different then

[quick marten]

Yeah and blasted steps probably similar to the land of storms

[terse warren]

https://tenor.com/view/if-i'm-moderation-this-no-happen-gif-11264012189148332643

[rancid dagger]

except for the storms part

[sour quartz]

i like the new addition of horrid trypophobia beasts in the void im glad this is a thing

the abyss*

[silk dirge]

the void dinosaurs are actually the scariest enemy ive ever seen i think lmao

[radiant badger]

Does sherma have like drifters cloak? Because how does he get to bellhart. Does he like use his little hat like a umbrella

[sour quartz]

im looking forward to new awful terrible abyss dwellers

[silk dirge]

those things are freaky

[quick marten]

It seems pretty stormy on the blasted steps lol. I mean not thunderstormy but dust storm certainly

[steep talon]

Yeah, no clue what that things deal is

[sinful nimbus]

When are we updating

[heady brook]

at least he tried to come up with something brave

[rancid dagger]

sherma gets to the citadel no issue because he's completely sinless

[quick marten]

But yeah they not the same people

[sour quartz]

sherma is goated with the sauce

[rancid dagger]

that's just wind

[heady brook]

Yeah right there is even like wind, thats almost a storm

[silk dirge]

i guess the void recovered from the ourple curse

[terse warren]

When are we changing the Karmelita emojis, their name is wrong

[gentle aspen]

mever

[sour quartz]

i do think the implication for a lot of characters routes in both games is probably that in the 3d world of these games theres safer or more feasible routes that our characters arent taking because of how acrobatically privileged they are

[silk dirge]

hornets too cool for those

[terse warren]

When's the update to jokerpsa

[steep talon]

Or in case of Shakra she can just quadruple jump

[terse warren]

Or when's it getting removed

[foggy fractal]

I do wonder if we'll get a god master equivalent in Silksong
like a boss rush but with different characters and lore ? something disconnected from the lore ? or maybe they don't even add it ? lots of possiblities

[sour quartz]

we dont have to find the cramped climb up at a near 90% angle and then shimmey across a scary ledge routes because we can just like. jump 50 feet

[nimble bronze]

do you see how high some of these rotting possessed random pilgrim bugs can jump though? Maybe the average joe is just built diff

[gentle aspen]

I’ll just delete it tbh

[sinful nimbus]

I don't want to let go of the world where Silksong had no void 😔

[foggy fractal]

we need the snail shaman psa lowkey

[sour quartz]

[sinful nimbus]

don't don't don't

Please its a relic of the past

[foggy fractal]

no dude I've seen people need to use it even after the game released

[silk dirge]

you cant let go of something that never existed 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Actually do, bring back tag info sealedsiblings

[sinful nimbus]

It existed in my heart

[gentle aspen]

tc spat on it just like they spat on my goddamn self respect

[silk dirge]

i am curious could madeline physically climb to the citadel

[rancid dagger]

now that i think of it what does styx do in steel soul
or is he just dead like the rotten eggs fella in hk

[sour quartz]

we do have cornifer taking an acidic route around the shade cloak barrier that, if im not mistaken, isnt rendered ingame. so thats at least ONE example of 3 dimensionality

[steep talon]

Yeah, absolutely. Even with one dash she can basically go everywhere

[sinful nimbus]

He's dead and replaced with someone mimicking him (Maybe a Nosk)

[silk dirge]

i hope some dlc or mod adds omnidirectional dashing for hornet

[heady brook]

I'd definitely want at least a place where i can refight all the bosses, and i enjoyed the godseeker lore so it would be cool ig

[foggy fractal]

well theres gonna be people who say
oh even tho we know dnm and etv are canon if sister of the void is canon, the all endings being canon thing is not true before either due to sealed siblings
smth like that

[rancid dagger]

i see

[silk dirge]

she cant pogo

that would be an issue

[sour quartz]

guys guys, obviously if madeline was there then there would be level design accomodating for her

[steep talon]

She has wallclimb, jump, 8 directional dash. I think she clears

[sinful nimbus]

Wavedashes supers and hypers could probably bypass the need for most pogos

[sour quartz]

this is her and every other videogame characters passive ability

[subtle plaza]

what if sealed siblings happened and hornet somehow teleported out of there and the knight also somehow became void creature

[foggy fractal]

I really liked the godhome deco and arenas too it would be cool to see some sort of return
modders will add a boss rush it in anyway but without all the extra flair y'know

[terse warren]

Retcon psa when

[silk dirge]

yeah true she could probably just spinner stun through a bunch of hazards

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/black-guy-whtie-and-black-cry-praying-looking-up-gif-553441503240360994

[sinful nimbus]

?tag info jokerpsa

[gleaming basin]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgzlVc4LM4J6_DfuscZ4AaABCQ

No ending stops Hornet from being captured, and the ability to break seals with bugs from Pharloom makes Hornet being locked in the Black Egg not an issue. Dreamers also don’t die when sealed, we simply didn’t have the means to remove them without killing them.

[silk dirge]

spinner stunning is the funniest shit ever

[sinful nimbus]

Thank god he's st ill with us 🙏

[nimble bronze]

the mantis tribe wondering whether to build actual housing and livable architecture for their kids or rig random traps in corners accessable by a secret wall nobody has broken until we arrived

[silk dirge]

basically you can wait like a few hundred hours in a room and spinners deload their hitboxes

[sinful nimbus]

Why am I getting sentimental over a tag I'm going outside

[silk dirge]

and you can just phase through them

[sour quartz]

HMMMM

[foggy fractal]

nooo come back

[silk dirge]

or if you are a tas you can pause the game at frame perfect intervals and phase through spinners as well

[rancid dagger]

do we ever know why midwife can sense us using dream nail on her

since she isnt a weaver and allat

[steep talon]

Is that celeste spinners?

[sour quartz]

genuinely though any pogo platforming would just be replaced with bubbles or feathers for
madeline

those come from her anyway

[sour quartz]

nope

[steep talon]

It wouldn't need to be, she can dash upwards, that's basically double jump but even better

[timber pond]

They fucking lied to us bro lol.

[silk dirge]

yeah

[steep talon]

Fucked up

[sour quartz]

well anything that does need it, or like harpoon ring platforming etc

[silk dirge]

i mean it depends like madeline could definitely not get through silk soar rooms

[steep talon]

Oh, I thought we were just talking citadel

[sour quartz]

midwife i think is just built different though

[silk dirge]

i mean im thinking of full game now

[foggy fractal]

the all endings are canon part ?
I think all the endings that aren't sister of the void can still exist if every hk ending is canon

[silk dirge]

the question is how does madeline damage bosses

or enemies

[sour quartz]

she runs

[silk dirge]

real

[timber pond]

Yeah but like. what the hell are we defining as cannon here? because if the series will Continue after sister of the void, i consider cannon what continues the plot 😂

[steep talon]

There is only one place in citadel where that might be an issue, it's entrance to high halls. But also Madeline can dash and gain extra height from jumping from a wall, with good timing, from there she just wall clings and clears

[silk dirge]

i wonder who would win in a race madeline or hornet assuming hornet can just harpoon madeline and send her back to the start

[sour quartz]

LOL

[silk dirge]

like you can do to sprintmaster

[sour quartz]

so mean

[foggy fractal]

we don't know if the series will continue after sister of the void tho its either
ETV and DNM are canon if SOTV is canon
or every ending is still canon if we're talking about any other Silksong ending

[sour quartz]

heres a tangentially related question, how big do yall think bugs are? im personally a believer that theyre all multiple feet tall so like. human scale. maybe they tend to be shorter than rhe human average so quirrel is only like 4’4 or something but still i think of them as multiple feet tall

[steep talon]

Yee, I'd say so too

[rain spindle]

hornets needle goes 30 yards

[sour quartz]

holy SHIT

[steep talon]

Maybe a little bit bigger though

[sour quartz]

yeah the slightly smaller than a person thing was something i made up just then its not something ive sincerely thought about

[foggy fractal]

I think they're bug sized

[sour quartz]

bug hollow knight or bug real life…

[quick marten]

I think they are little bugs and that Hallownest and Pharloom are like a block away from each other

[timber pond]

If the DLC is Post Game in any way, then SOTV is cannon. and i doubt "we will be working on silksong for years to come" means the DLC for this game will be directly equivocal to Hollow knight. especially after the Team Chery Message at the End of Steel soul.
Alot of the Threads they present to extend the universe only make sense if they take place after the stoy anywho.

[foggy fractal]

like real life bug size so pretty small

[sour quartz]

ittily bittily

[lean temple]

Hornet still says before any ending that "even gods can fall" which references Hallownest. This line hints at the Radiance having been defeated for good, which only happens in dnm or etv

[foggy fractal]

does it have to be Radiance ? I always thought she was speaking of the Pale King

[sour quartz]

its also doubly referring to the pale king but its definitely also open to being the radiance. i read it as both

[quick marten]

She says Gods plural I always thought she was referring to both

[steep talon]

Does it? They let anyone into God home, damn vengefly king is there for some reason

[lean temple]

Me too, but the context of defeating an antagonist leans more into it being Radiance

[sour quartz]

well “god” in the context of their conversation was synonymous w higher being

godhome uses god as “great beast”

[lean temple]

The Godseeker usage of god is unique to them. Real Gods are higher beings and vice versa

[sinful nimbus]

Its probably Radiance

[steep talon]

Uh, yeah I guess that makes sense

[sour quartz]

dont let godseekers see an Elephant 🐘

[sinful nimbus]

Since its in the context of killing gods through combat

Not that Hornet was the one who killed Rad but wtv

[foggy fractal]

lets adress the elephant in the room...

[steep talon]

Real gods, damn lol

[sour quartz]

i dont think its Not about the pale king since the context of the convo was also about specifically the kind of god who makes a kingdom and has a bunch of bugs in their thrall

[foggy fractal]

yeah I don't see why Hornet would be using the word god thats synonymous with the godseeker usage

[silk dirge]

*elephants foot in the room

[foggy fractal]

we need to adress this.

[sour quartz]

geiger counter noise

[foggy fractal]

CLICKCLICKCLICKCLICK

[sour quartz]

im addressing it rn 🍴

[silk dirge]

honestly this picture could be from underworks

[rancid dagger]

i mean i'd argue that even if SoTV isn't canon the HK endings should still be solid, cant really change previous continuity based on the ending of the 2nd game imo

you need a solid baseline (plus hornet saying that from her experience even higher beings can be defeated)

[quick marten]

New tool where Hornet throws neutrons close to the speed of light at enemies, destroying them on a molecular level

[foggy fractal]

eh whatever dnm is still the goat RAGHHHHHHHHHHH

[sour quartz]

hornet passive radiation

[foggy fractal]

🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️ 🗣️

[silk dirge]

bilewater is literally chernobyl

[rancid dagger]

godhome ending > since it gives us THK as a possible character

[sour quartz]

i had the crackpot idea of if thk got a playable game itd probably not be the same kinda game

[foggy fractal]

ok what would thk even do after being freed

[sour quartz]

and itd maybe even be 3d ooooo wiggles fingers

[lean temple]

Chill in the hotspring for 1000 years

[sour quartz]

me too

[foggy fractal]

just do this but as a shade in the abyss

[rancid dagger]

you can make it do whatever it has a will it knows it isn't actually hollow you can develop it however you want

[severe siren]

Calling it now that Lace will be playable in Silk Soul mode