sk-lore

[terse wadi]

Not for long obviously

[wary plover]

I love his spool of silk ticking down

[ember river]

That's mizello, the mantle was mizello's, and mizello's lingering will was in there somewhere, but it wasn't him completely

[terse wadi]

IV drip

[steep talon]

White lady binding herself also makes more sense

[terse wadi]

Grey root shows us that roots have an insatisable urge to breed for some reason, WL showed it too but GR doubles down on it

[ember river]

Also, do you think conductors looked like less fat gourmand?

[steep talon]

Yep, I meant the clothes. And yeah the lingering will seemed to have been absorbed into silk heart somehow

[terse wadi]

Bearing children is their thing

idk why

[terse wadi]

no clue, but if the lift image is anything to go off of they were bulky and tall

[hardy shale]

me frfr

[rugged sigil]

cardius? not really the melody giver but still

[ember river]

It surely is, that's how their clothes are

[steep talon]

Wait

[ember river]

Ballador

[terse wadi]

He's not the intended giver

The Pope was , but he died

[steep talon]

Are conductors head piece slighlty different from each other

[ember river]

No clue, they all wear helmets

[terse wadi]

No clue

[cold axle]

greyroot talks about rebirth, though, not children

[ember river]

Also, do you think architects were created, or were organic beings that became machines?

[steep talon]

Well gourmand fits, has two eyes instead of uhm however many bugs can have

[steep talon]

Option 2

[cold axle]

feels like the same intrinsic drive interpreted in different ways

[cold axle]

made imo

[terse wadi]

she does, but it's prompted by giving her a child (the twisted bud) and the twised child ending both in name and cutscene implies something is being born

[rugged sigil]

created i think probably by weavers idk

[cold axle]

all of the thinking constructs seem to be straight up created life

[rugged sigil]

they have a soul put in though

[terse wadi]

They're def machines 12th architect even says there's no one left who can make new ones and she drops a core

[steep talon]

Well rebirth also implies the child, not being a mother no?

[ember river]

Thing is there's evidence supporting both, like the Cog Dancers having the other green prince's soul and the Conductors' Final Edict mentioning to become the perfect lifeform of rotor and cog

[rugged sigil]

actually i think they may of been made by a living architect who then put there soul into the creation

[wary plover]

I guess one of the problems I felt was slightly weaker in silksong map design it didn't feel as cool as hollow knights. For example we meet the queen station, green gardens, learn about the king and the city all before meeting the queen in the queens gardens. Giant flowers and sprawling thorns make it more atmospheric and feels like a more dangerous closed off green path.

[terse wadi]

to bring life into the world is to be a parent, pretty simple

[ember river]

Also, these flies are in another choral commandment pretty much confirmed to be like ghosts

But 12th does say the skill to create an architect is long lost

[terse wadi]

Yeah

[rugged sigil]

the small silkbugs in the robots are souls iirc

[ember river]

Yeah those

[steep talon]

I'm not sure I'd describe it a such. this shit is like mitosis with extra steps

[terse wadi]

Now we're just splitting hairs

[steep talon]

True

[wary plover]

Wait why do the automations need souls

[ember river]

All machines run on soul, but what I was wondering is if architects were organic at some point or born as machines

[whole hawk]

Pharloom definitely tries to evoke a different feeling. Hallownest has a tragic whimsy to it. Pharloom is more like a world choked out by an industrial shithole and boy can you feel it in the wprld design.

[terse wadi]

They don't but it does make them more lifelike

[teal finch]

Hornet: What will follow if you pass? Would another take your place?

12th Architect: One cannot. The skill to construct an Architect... That was taken by t-t-time. I am the last-final.

[ember river]

Because they can't make proper AI with cogs and it's an excellent energy source

[rugged sigil]

i think its people who put there own soul in a machine of there own creation to live longer

[steep talon]

All robots seem to have it. I guess soul just animates things, even inorganic things. There was some diaologue that walls in hk were almost alive, probably cause of bunch of bug corpses

[cold axle]

i think, based on the way the constructs act and the way soul is portrayed in HK, it's more of a raw resource used to make new life

[wary plover]

Agh, pathetic bugs without machine learning algorithms

[rugged sigil]

bcs the archetect are the people who are good at making things

[terse wadi]

Nah, I think it's just very special automatons with soul

[cold axle]

than it is just direct one to one transfer

the architect and sentinel both act like entirely mechanical people

with no implication that they were once bugs

[terse wadi]

^

[ember river]

Yeah but the small flies are pretty much ghosts, that one choral commandment says so

[cold axle]

soul may animate them, but their thoughts are their own, not another's put inside them

[ember river]

And the conductors' final edict does hint at transference being possible

[steep talon]

Yee

[cold axle]

okay? that doesn't really affect any of what we textually see

[ember river]

If architects were created though, I wonder who did

[terse wadi]

The citadel just made human-like or in this case bug-like robots which to some is horrifying, I personally find it cool

[rugged sigil]

i think maybe they can be controlled with music as shown in the mist and lace being able to conduct them

[wary plover]

How did kingsmoulds get sentience then

[terse wadi]

dead, long dead

[rugged sigil]

void

[wary plover]

Because I don't think they had souls

[ember river]

Calling them sentience is a bit much

[rugged sigil]

they were void constructs

[ember river]

Also yes, they had an amalgamation of void and soul

[cold axle]

which is that there's zero implication whatsoever that these "ghosts" are strong enough or impactful enough to "become" the mind they're powering

[steep talon]

Still wondering about that room in whiteward with lampbugs and the big machine around it

[wary plover]

Well they have as much intelligence as cogworks sooo

[terse wadi]

You can imprint things on void

They were imprinted with a task

[ember river]

If the wingsmould entry is anything to go by

[rugged sigil]

i assume those were injection rooms as we know silk was injected into people

[ember river]

Or the silk recycling

[wary plover]

Also did anyone realise kingsmoulds and wings moulds come from kingsmen and wingmen

[ember river]

From dead bugs

[wary plover]

The words

[steep talon]

I would agree. It's just weird that they are in chandelier spheres lmao

[ember river]

Someone probably did but not me

[whole hawk]

Speaking of the souls, Lace can control them as butterflies. Which makes me wonder what does she actually do in the Citadel? Does she just act like a child for GMS? But who would she act like a child for if she's asleep?

[wary plover]

Also I'm pretty sure crusts are a reference to crustaceans

[rugged sigil]

shes trying to fuck up gms's plans

[steep talon]

She's just fucking around and being a doomer

[rugged sigil]

rebellious teen behaviour

[terse wadi]

Lace like many of us, wasn't happy to exist, and is taking it out on mom

[steep talon]

True, she also kills piligrims in citadel weirdly enough no clue why she does that

[whole hawk]

Sure she's doing that now but what did she do when she was first created. She obviously claims the title of a knight so that's one thing

[terse wadi]

Hornet is right though, Lace is more alive than other attrocities in the HK universe

[rugged sigil]

today i found out phantom used to be white but bvecame grey with age

[teal finch]

GMS' intention w lace was to have a completely loyal daughter (failed epically)

[whole hawk]

Was Lace created prior to GMS going to sleep?

[steep talon]

Probably same thing with weavers
She was told she's divine, but then realized to wasn't spun to last or whatever

[ember river]

Unknown

[terse wadi]

HB creates child to do a thing, (Doesn't do thing)

Classic HK move

[teal finch]

grand mother SHAM

[rugged sigil]

probably as a direct response to the weavers trapping her in a ball

[flint wadi]

i dont think silk made lace for anything

i think she just wanted a child

[rugged sigil]

she just wants to have a daughter

[ember river]

She made her to be loyal

[flint wadi]

a child that wouldnt betray her like weavers did

[rugged sigil]

its probably in her nature as grand mother

[flint wadi]

still failed

[terse wadi]

Loyal daughter, or child we see it in the silkheart cutscene

[steep talon]

Makes a kid, goes to sleep for 1 gazillion year, kid hates her. Is she stupid

[rugged sigil]

makes 2 kids

[terse wadi]

PK and THK, GMS and Lace, there's a pattern here

[teal finch]

many sucjh cases

[rugged sigil]

after being put to sleep

[terse wadi]

These pale beings need to stop making these mistakes

[steep talon]

Oh true.

[ember river]

The Hollow Knight was loyal until the end though

[flint wadi]

which is just a way of saying she wanted a daughter that respected and loved her, not a servant

[rugged sigil]

the motto is dont have kids they will fail you

[terse wadi]

Loyal? yes did its task right? no

[steep talon]

Nightmare heart and grimmchild or just grimm I guess?

[ember river]

He just wasn't what the pale king wanted him to be, but I doubt there was any chance of that being possible

[terse wadi]

Trueeee

[steep talon]

Hey that's almost a precept!

[ember river]

That actually works for him

[steep talon]

Yep, seems like a working scheme

[terse wadi]

Likely not but the parralell is that, they both wanted something impossible for their child

[ember river]

As always, Zote's precepts cover such a thing

[terse wadi]

Grimm is just a phoenix for NMH with extra steps

[rugged sigil]

zote predicting the lore

[steep talon]

Was there one about kids? I remember one about fathers

[ember river]

That means Zote is the wisest character of the franchise

[ember river]

I have no idea

[steep talon]

Rip

[terse wadi]

Zote is so smart he's dumb

[ember river]

But Zote probably knew in his infinite wisdom

[rugged sigil]

it was kinda the pale king that failed him as it was him who caused the idea instilled

[terse wadi]

He's that smart

[ember river]

I don't really think the Knight would be able to contain the radiance forever either

[terse wadi]

The very notion of making something, thoughtless, willless, and mute was a doomed concept to begin with

[terse wadi]

it wouldn't, so we just shanked her

[rugged sigil]

yeah but its implied his love for the pk was why it failed so badly

[steep talon]

Yeah, he should have just killed radiance!

[rugged sigil]

the plan was shit from the beginning

[ember river]

The void us all that, but you can't really make something both void and not void at the same time

[terse wadi]

Technically Sister of void follows either DNM or ETV so basically the Act 3 ending Radiance is dead

[terse wadi]

yup

[rugged sigil]

void watergun

[flint wadi]

i mean she literally forefits her existence just to give hornet and lace a chance to escape, she definitely didnt make lace just for her to be a slave of hers

[steep talon]

The Knight:

[ember river]

You really can't without harnessing the void, which you can't without the void heart or something like the shaman trap

[steep talon]

Yee, I'm just joking

[ember river]

The knight has a mind and will

[flint wadi]

and im thinking the reason she made lace is because weavers failed her, so instead of expanding minds she decided to just make her own child

[terse wadi]

It amuses me that Radiance is canonically dead in Sister of void

[flint wadi]

good

[steep talon]

And is also void, which shouldnt have will

[rugged sigil]

thats why you make a void water gun

[terse wadi]

It's DNM knight with flashes of SL which means either DNM or ETV both endings result from Radiance dying

[ember river]

It's something else, not just void

[flint wadi]

its dream no more

[ember river]

It's still a creature

[rugged sigil]

if the radiance dies does that get rid of dreams? as she is the god that has dominion over them

[ember river]

Not really

[flint wadi]

shade lord flash is fanservice, either way it wouldnt make sense narratively to pick up from a what if ending

[terse wadi]

It is DNM TK but there's flashes of SL implying it could be both, which is in line with TC leaving things open ended

[steep talon]

You can't make something that's void and not void. But Knight became, wasn't necessarily made to be that

[whole hawk]

the coral area will be the silksong community's forest of bones. people will never get over it

[flint wadi]

dream no more is the best conclusion for hollow knight

[steep talon]

Did people care about forest of bones that much, news to me?

[rugged sigil]

they said they cut it for being too fun

[terse wadi]

any ending where Radiance dies is the best conclusion

[steep talon]

William motherfucking Pellen

[terse wadi]

Wilbo is a troll though

[flint wadi]

yeah but id rather have the conclusion arrive within hallownest itself than some random outsiders which came there to for selfish reasons

[rugged sigil]

praying they add it as a elegy of the deep area for sands of karak like lost verdania

[flint wadi]

godmaster endings are entirely extra

[ember river]

Well, sorry, should have explained it better.
You can't make a living thing that isn't pure void behave as if it was pure void. What it can become it's something else, but you can't give it no will and no mind just by using void

[rugged sigil]

also needless cliffhanger

[terse wadi]

I have a feeling we'll get a full on coral forest area in the dlc in some capacity

[flint wadi]

praying for this and bilewater past

[steep talon]

Yep, makes sense to me

[terse wadi]

Feel bad for the Sharpe backer, gotta wait till DLC to see their boss

[rugged sigil]

i want greymoor past bcs its implied to used to be a bamboo forest

[flint wadi]

oh i thought that was just wisp thicket

i guess it explains the planks

[steep talon]

Even collector was moulded and then maybe somehow absorbed consciousness of another bug. Oh it's a whole thing

[whole hawk]

I hope the City of Steel becomes an explorable area in the DLC. If they become that ambitious about it.

[terse wadi]

melded with the bug that has love key

[steep talon]

Most likely yeah

[terse wadi]

Was kinda mad Steel Seer Zi's quest didn't lead to Sharpe

[rugged sigil]

i think greymoor used to be like the whisp thicket before the trees were cut down for the houses, but a bamboo forest with clean rain from a clean bilewater would be so cool

[flint wadi]

now i want all of pharloom past

[terse wadi]

I want prime real world Karmalita

[rugged sigil]

a past dlc would also make a shakras master fight possible

[steep talon]

Same moveset she just does 4 damage

[ember river]

We need a pale king DLC for that wyrm crest in the files

[rugged sigil]

i wanna see prime ass jim decked out in citadel gear

[steep talon]

Don't get too excited, we never got Iselda fight remember

[ember river]

And to finally hear a proper conversation with what guy

[flint wadi]

image?

[whole hawk]

Like make the City of Steel a mobile fortress that just travels across the wastes finding and detecting void wherever. And in Act 3 Hornet can summon them through Sharpe which leads to it parking right next to Pharloom.

[ember river]

Don't have it, someone else sent it a while back

[steep talon]

That could be cool

[ember river]

@flint wadi

[rugged sigil]

we know in some way sharpe will come bcs they're backer content

[flint wadi]

daaamn

[vivid hamlet]

i just noticed that the cogwork enemies have a lumafly fly out of them whenever they're killed. i wonder what that's about?

[rugged sigil]

its a bug soul

[ember river]

They are essentially ghosts

[rugged sigil]

they can also somehow break seals of binding idk how that works

[terse wadi]

They break seals in general

[rugged sigil]

maybe that seal was just unbreakable from the inside or smth

[ember river]

Isn't the seal of binding just the path of pain one?

[terse wadi]

It is

[ember river]

Anyways yeah they can apparently dispel runes

[steep talon]

Maybe it was a Rune which is just same thing as a seal I guess

[terse wadi]

There's other seals

[rugged sigil]

just seals then mb

[terse wadi]

We just don't know the names of them

[quartz salmon]

this implies we'd somehow stab pale kings corpse and absorb his life force
which idk how it would have happened
maybe through memories?

[rugged sigil]

ACT 4: HALLOWNEST

[whole hawk]

It was a butterfly sent by Lace specifically so she probably knew how to make it deactivate the cage

[rugged sigil]

doubt it but itd be funny

[terse wadi]

ACt 4: rebuilding

[ember river]

Maybe it's awakening something like what eva does to evolve the hunter's crest

[steep talon]

Ngl, when I first saw act 1. That's was my immediate thought

[rugged sigil]

doesnt hit the same as PHARLOOM, CITADEL OF SONG and ABYSS

[ember river]

ACT 4: PALE KING 2 ELECTRIC WYRMALOO

[terse wadi]

fuck else they gonna do after you beat Lost Lace

[quartz salmon]

do you guys think that theyll contiue the act thing if the dlcs introduce new areas

[rugged sigil]

idk just needs a better name

[terse wadi]

Well, I just came up with it ion the spot

We can workshop it later

[ember river]

Nah, I think they'll be side content

[steep talon]

Yes, I think act 3 is kind of a shit place to do side content

[whole hawk]

Team Cherry made the needolin into a dreamnail for a reason

[steep talon]

And most people will use act 3 savefioes

[rugged sigil]

yeah probably but we still dont know how much content a paid tc dlc would have as the hornet one was turned into a game bcs it grew too big

[terse wadi]

I'd love it if I didn't have to hear GMS screech periodically in my dlcing

[whole hawk]

Dream Nail mechanic is just an excuse as a free mechanic to endlessly add side content to the game

[ember river]

Wait the DLCs are going to be paid?

[steep talon]

Paid? Who said paid lmao

[flint wadi]

no, itll likely be side content

i think the place silksong ends at is perfect

[terse wadi]

They're set for life, and even when they weren't they still made them free

[rugged sigil]

noone said that im just saying

[ember river]

They call them DLC but they are kinda just major updates

[rugged sigil]

we know theyre willing to do so though bcs the hornet one was planned to be paid

[steep talon]

They used to call them content packs or used to differentiate the fact that they are free

[quartz salmon]

messing with the void is a pretty easy way to have the Steelhearts come after you, so i think theyre either coming to us or we're going to them

alternatively it can pick up after the true ending, since the main menu screen suggest that Hornet and Lace climb up to the surface and leave Pharloom

[ember river]

Well it became a massive game

[whole hawk]

We could get an Act 4 though as a last DLC. Like "Act 4 - Epilogue" sort of deal.

[terse wadi]

Technically, it is correct it is content you dowlnload, paid DLC is just synominous because the uindustry sucks

[steep talon]

We gotta bring back content packs

[terse wadi]

Rather than climb up TK kinda air mailed them to the top

[steep talon]

The lingo must change

[rugged sigil]

the base game is dlc bcs its content you download

[ember river]

Yeah, I know, but as I was saying yesterday, a retcon doesn't necessarily need to be a contradiction either if it's just retroactive explanation

[terse wadi]

What does that have to do with paid or free dlc

[ember river]

But TC is in Australia so we are uploading the content from down there

[quartz salmon]

i mean like the surface above pharloom not the surface of the void sea sorry

[terse wadi]

I know

I was hoping I'd get a new background for steelheart but no dice

[rugged sigil]

me who lives in australia but below them

[terse wadi]

Same as steel soul

[steep talon]

You don't? So cursed gets a background but not steel soul that's bullshit

[terse wadi]

Steel soul does

But there's no new background for Steel heart

[quartz salmon]

havent seen that yet can u send it here

[terse wadi]

Sure, one sec

[steep talon]

Ah okay, I'll pretend to know what that means and ask no questions. Still need to do my steel run

[rugged sigil]

we should have a sherma bg as this games version of the zote one

[steep talon]

True!!!!

[terse wadi]

it's the name of the 100% steel soul achievement

[steep talon]

Ah gotcha

[quartz salmon]

lmao

[terse wadi]

True

[quartz salmon]

hidden grindle main menu screen for farming over 1M rosaries

[steep talon]

TC when someone criticized HK for not having endgame money dunp

[steep talon]

Shell shards, interesting

[quartz salmon]

thats pretty cool

[terse wadi]

It's gleaming steel shells buut yes

[quartz salmon]

p curious about the regenerating growstone that Zi gives for finishing her quest

she says its a gift from the "home spear" and like a reminder of her birth?

weird

[rugged sigil]

is it just the quest, new styx and that one tool thats exclusive to steel soul

[quartz salmon]

yeah pretty much

[dull vine]

||In that quest, there’s also a new boss, small area, regenerable shell shard and some more lore on the steel masters and void||

[rugged sigil]

yeah ik

mid fight

wish the tool wasnt steel soul exclusive though its really good

[fringe rampart]

Is there a full version of Pharloom's Folly in the same way there was one for Elegy for Hallownest?

[whole hawk]

The Coral area existing the way it did back then makes so much sense when you see how the Citadel was styled. It was literally just a normal city and the underworks was just the catacombs.

Meaning the Citadel wasn't some industrial shithole yet that killed off all the ecosystems around it. 2021 was when the coral area got gutted so I wonder if that's the part where they realized the extent of what they wanted the Citadel to actually feel and look like.

[rugged sigil]

dont think so

[flint wadi]

oh huh, is it a red tool, does it count toward completion

[rugged sigil]

its a blue tool

nvm yellow

it replaces the one that keeps your rosaries on death

[flint wadi]

whaaaaaa we have dev map already

[rugged sigil]

acmi

[rugged sigil]

its really good

[flint wadi]

i tuned out any dev news before the game came out to play it as blindly as possible

[flint wadi]

i wonder how big is the quantity increase

[rugged sigil]

idr but its noticeable

[flint wadi]

this is so interesting though

coral gorge was one of pharlooms biggest setpieces and now its a semi optional area

citadel is a city rather than a mega structure

and the slabs are on the right

[quartz salmon]

its still there its liuterally the exact same layout but they replaced all the coral with sand and turned coral gorge into blasted steps and the red portion into sands of karak

but yeah

[brisk finch]

Lifeblood Spire also appears to have been fully cut before being reincorporated into the wormways (considering the alternative early alchemist Mossblood/Muckblood quests in the files)

[flint wadi]

it seems the coral gorge was the size of blasted steps and karak combined tbh

[brisk finch]

Void Cult could be the Steel Soul stuff, but it could also be the snail shamans

[quartz salmon]

i think void cult is just the idea that ended up being the wisp thicket

they just replaced void with fire

and it was repurposed to have a full on abyss and snail shamans

[flint wadi]

its kinda where wisp thicket is too

[brisk finch]

I'd consider that if the void wasn't so important to the climax of the game
No matter what, there are still two void cult like entities as it stands

(I mean, summoned saviour being a boss and all)

[quartz salmon]

you have to remember that it was originally a dlc

they probably didnt have all the second abyss stuff planned out at the start

[brisk finch]

That's not quite true

They absolutely had at least some Abyss stuff planned out, because HK only ended up with the shore to begin with

[mint furnace]

Pretty sure the dlcs were made because they didn’t have time for them to be added in the first release

[brisk finch]

And there is that mystery section "under the lava"

[brisk finch]

I think they meant "Hornet DLC"

[mint furnace]

Ah

[brisk finch]

Hornet DLC wouldn't have had Silksong's act 3, which I fully agree with

Something that expansive isn't dlc territory

[mint furnace]

It’s also just been 7 years

[brisk finch]

But I do believe that a deeper abyss exploration could've been in the cards

[quartz salmon]

idk i just think the under the lava thing would just be marked as abyss or void so i believe they had the idea for an area there but they decided to make it a new abyss later

[flint wadi]

i dont see hornet dlc having pharloom at all, thats the main reason they moved on

[mint furnace]

Nah, we all know it’s just because she’s too tall

[flint wadi]

new areas sure but not a new kingdom

[whole juniper]

so you just proved his point…

[flint wadi]

yeah that played into it id imagine

[brisk finch]

I think it's the case that they merged ideas, like what happened with lifeblood. I think some of it could've gone to whip thicket, but it fits too perfectly to be a clear one to one like the mossblood->lifeblood thing

[whole hawk]

Even the Abyss we got in Silksong was more of a small Weaver frontier base.

[quartz salmon]

they definately had that idea from the start, the dev maps are from before hk even released

[quartz salmon]

sure yeah

[brisk finch]

"let's keep the small cult stuff, but take the void ideas we had for them and turn that into a snail shaman/steel soul storyline (or something)"

Which I guess is the opposite of merging lol, I meant splitting

[quartz salmon]

i can see it

[flint wadi]

its redistributing

[brisk finch]

Lifeblood spire got merged with the alchemist quests they were designing, but void cult might've gotten split into fire cult and void plot

or fire cult and steel plot

or fire cult, void plot and steel plot

[mint furnace]

By the way, is there anything deeper with the fire guys?

[quartz salmon]

i think its this one and theyre just keeping it for dlc

[mint furnace]

I could not see anything besides “mmm fire”

And the fires alive i guess

[flint wadi]

funilly enough the lifeblood spire is around the place where zylotol says his master got lifeblood from (salt lakes)

[brisk finch]

There is still an unaccounted for backer character, the steel assassins pretty much have to show up in some form

[quartz salmon]

that seems to be it

[brisk finch]

But their whole "tracking hornet down" plot makes 0 sense in the current story, so it makes sense they got shuffled around

[mint furnace]

I genuinely thought for a while they’d be steel soul specific

[quartz salmon]

sure it does
the steel soul quest implies that these masters hunt you for messing with void sooo after act 3 ....

[brisk finch]

I haven't really found much on the fire guys, altho I admittedly haven't looked much
Like, one of them appears out of place in the announcement trailer so they're seemingly an old concept but otherwise ???

[heady thorn]

who does the last judge salute or is that just a pose or something

[mint furnace]

And you’d randomly get jumped by them

[brisk finch]

Yeah but I think having them be act 3 only would really remove act 3's focus

[whole hawk]

Fire guys are just some wacky wickerman cultists.

[brisk finch]

Now you're working on the hearts+ some leftovers
Then, two plots would be competing

[mint furnace]

Putting their hand over their heart?

[flint wadi]

same, i thought the idea would to have surprise assassin encounters just to amp up the pressure

[heady thorn]

yes isnt that another way to salute

[whole hawk]

not necessarily. If the steel assassin DLC leads to another ending then it bejng in Act 3 makes sense.

[brisk finch]

It's technically still possible, especially if Silk Soul still has a chance of existing

[mint furnace]

“Wow, savage beast fly 2 was hard, good thing I lived on one health”

The humble rng steel assassin encounter 3 seconds later:

[flint wadi]

yup, yup
exactly

[brisk finch]

If it ends up being a Godhome like path then yes, but if incorporated into the game as is, my gut says it'd feel pretty busy
And they were cut (for now) for a reason
I do think they can be incorporated again though, for sure. TC will know what to do

[quartz salmon]

act 4 🔥

[brisk finch]

I NEED TO HELP BELLHART AND THE SURVIVOR'S CAMP OKAY???

I never needed more post game stuff from HK but skong is killing me

[mint furnace]

In all seriousness I’m going to assume the steel assassins are not going to do what they were said to anymore

Only way it would make sense is if lace sent them, I guess?

[brisk finch]

I think it feels "worse" (not bad just different) because you can help Bonebottom and Bellhart
just not in act 3

[flint wadi]

yeah tc will reimagine them to fit in with the game

[buoyant salmon]

So Sherma is always alone right? There is no lore about his parent or family?

[brisk finch]

I think the steel guys have been completely rewritten, ye

[mint furnace]

Just another pilgrim

[brisk finch]

Not anything I can recall. Just a humble pilgrim

[buoyant salmon]

yeah but he is really young

[whole hawk]

I could just see it as being sone alternate route you can take. Like for example. The City of Steel is actually a mobile fortfess that parks itself next to Pharloom after you resolve Sharps's quest. And in that route you eventually get to the Masters and this either leads into another ending or something you get from them alters the ending with Lace.

[mint furnace]

Except he’s so pure he literally cannot die to the citadel

[buoyant salmon]

compare to the others

[flint wadi]

pilgrims come in all ages

[whole juniper]

?

[flint wadi]

look at little pilgrim (rest their soul)

[buoyant salmon]

I see most of them at least already adulthood

[mint furnace]

Sherma basically has canon plot armor from what i can gather

[buoyant salmon]

y'know there is small size bug right?

[brisk finch]

I could see there being an ending in a dlc like city of steel, ye
As long as Hornet feels like she can help Pharloom by doing X thing, it can be motivation to leave

Nothing is holding her back, physically, which opens up opportunities

[flint wadi]

you can be small and young

[buoyant salmon]

I think Steel would be like Grimm Troupe dlc

[buoyant salmon]

but no one we saw is as young as Sherma

[whole juniper]

it isn’t canon but it is plot armor

there’s no such thing as canon plot armor

[flint wadi]

shermas a true believer

[mint furnace]

Well no, the idea of being a “pure pilgrim”

[flint wadi]

hes immune to hk death flags

[quartz salmon]

nah doesnt seem like the city of steel would be some magical mobile thing

they have vassals and assasins they can send out to track people

[mint furnace]

Sherma passes the judge test, the citadel haunted, hell he even is untouched by the whiteward

[buoyant salmon]

it kinda sad that his belief getting dragged down every single second

[whole juniper]

you pass the judge test

[brisk finch]

I think there's no such thing as being pure/sinless enough to pass unharmed, but this is a case where the game's themes are best supported by having him live and even thrive to an extent, so he does

[whole juniper]

and she just goes through the door cause you opened it

[flint wadi]

thats the kicker of it all

[buoyant salmon]

um, the Judge is dead by the time Sherma came

[mint furnace]

Well the other guys aren’t

[flint wadi]

the lesser judges spared him

[mint furnace]

Last judge (lies)

[flint wadi]

he says so

[buoyant salmon]

wait who is it?

[brisk finch]

Maybe they'll bring back the caravan spider 🤣

[mint furnace]

Bros trying to be important, they’re like the 5th judge

Oh maybe it’s last like… in the line

That makes more sense

[flint wadi]

the judges across blasted steps spared sherma

[buoyant salmon]

probably someone saw the Judge dead and pretend to be one

[zinc pivot]

Thats what i thought when the title said Last Judge

[quartz salmon]

every unused sprite and character has potential

[flint wadi]

the last judge mightve spared him too but hornet disposes of them by that point

[zinc pivot]

as in the final judge tehy will face before entering Pharloom

[brisk finch]

They're the last to judge you, after that it's just the elevator

[whole juniper]

they aren’t canon

[brisk finch]

I doubt it, considering most of their dialogue is about haunted bellhart and, uh, Coral

And we have the lovely Eira by our side

But it'd be funny XD

[mint furnace]

One day we will get poop hermit crab village

[quartz salmon]

having potential means they could be repurposed for anything

who knows

[brisk finch]

I'm not sure they even have sprites though, and they're from really early in dev

[buoyant salmon]

some of them are Steel enemies so they have the potential to return as dlc

[brisk finch]

I do think the Unused can turn up used (three queens anyone?)

[buoyant salmon]

steel enemies already have attack animation from trailer

[mint furnace]

What do you guys think our godhome dlc equivalent will be?

[brisk finch]

But it does kind of depend on if they just didn't come up, or if they were replaced

[whole juniper]

Do we even know if dlc will be made

[zinc pivot]

So we got lifeblood and steel competing for DLC now

[brisk finch]

One singular steel enemy has a float
And Sharpe has the nose attack

[mint furnace]

Will they just set up shop in pharloom?

[brisk finch]

Yes, they confirmed it to Jason Schreier

[quartz salmon]

hornet delves into her own memories of fighting them

[zinc pivot]

i thought TC said something about DLC being a thing

Ah there we go

[mint furnace]

accessed by sleeping in bellhart

[buoyant salmon]

and fight zombie Radiance /j

[mint furnace]

PTSD dlc

[timber pond]

In The jason Scrier interview they went "we will be working on silksong for a few more years wink wink"

[buoyant salmon]

Imagine Radiance now is just a husk for the Void to use

[mint furnace]

I think radiance is atomized

[wary plover]

What if we get a DLC that has hornet exploring a mansion with changing rooms or one where she's setting out to defeat a mysterious paintress

[zinc pivot]

Btw guys do we have a document on the silksong lore? I'm kinda dying for one

[buoyant salmon]

they can make "Lost Radiance"

[mint furnace]

I think the void completely consumes higher beings

[timber pond]

Steel City Would Be More likely ,considering there is a whole Quest giving us the other half of its lore that is presented in the first game

[buoyant salmon]

still kinda early

[brisk finch]

You're here as the community is debating things 😄

[zinc pivot]

Phantom 2.0: Electric Boogaloo

[buoyant salmon]

We still have mushroom god, Steel god and Life-blood god yet to be discovered

[mint furnace]

Anyone elses favorite boss phantom

Doing the any% route and fighting them with no upgrades is so peak

[mint furnace]

Don’t we find the mushroom god in hk

[buoyant salmon]

btw how did you get the "he" role

[mint furnace]

Or is that just a guy

[timber pond]

The Masters are described to be like The knight with the void Heart from the first game. And Zi in this game suggest they can "compress"/ Reduce Pale Beings.

[brisk finch]

I really like Phantom. I'd like for a Lace and Phantom duo boss. I know Lace has enough to do, but I'm a sucker for siblings

[buoyant salmon]

that not a god

the one behind Mushroom Man

[mint furnace]

Channels and roles

[brisk finch]

We don't know if there's a deity behind Mister Mushroom

[wary plover]

If mushroom god is a thing then what is mr mushroom.

[brisk finch]

I'd guess there isn't, and this meta being is just vibing
He's aware of Tomb Cat and Hungry Knight, after all

[zinc pivot]

So a question I'd like to bring to the table, just how long has Pharloom existed as a kingdom
Based on how Weavers apparently visit the Abyss it's fcking ancient

[mint furnace]

Do we know if he’s even talking legitimately still

[quartz salmon]

in all the footage ive seen that compress line has not shown up if you could like provide me with all of Zi's dialogue that would be SO cool or anyone that has it please

[buoyant salmon]

a Herald

[mint furnace]

Id say very old, but citadel is most recent old

[timber pond]

IT is Speceficaly when you deny the Quest

[buoyant salmon]

he def is being cryptic

[mint furnace]

GMS saw all the weak bugs and thought “hell yeah free labor”

[buoyant salmon]

also he the only being that can launch like a rocket to the sky

[brisk finch]

There's nothing as blatant in the Skong dialogue as an actual Hungry Knight reference, at least

[mint furnace]

Fair enough

[brisk finch]

Which, sad
Should've had a hollow knight refererence in there!

But I was never good at decyphering his words

[mint furnace]

I still need to finish his quest in SS

[buoyant salmon]

Imagine DLC is "The Lost Pale Kingdom"

[timber pond]

The steel hearts are Made Of compressed Higher beings

[mint furnace]

Missing a couple so I can’t really talk about the meanings yet

[valid compass]

It's hard to measure time in this universe since bugs don't even count time passed as days or years. They only do in ages which might be a generation of bugs. It's really interesting since they all live in caverns so they don't have day and night

[zinc pivot]

I thought it was the weavers' responsibility considering they were the former ruling class

[mint furnace]

Regular enemies are pale beings

[mint furnace]

Oh yeah do we know who actually made it

[buoyant salmon]

even on the surface is always stormy

[mint furnace]

I’ve never thought about that

[buoyant salmon]

like there is no sun visible

[brisk finch]

TC explicitely has devnotes in hollow knight about removing time. HK is "one long night" etc
They really wanted that timeless feel

You can make a timeline that orders events, but dating them is all but impossible

[buoyant salmon]

I think the god of storm make the surface to look like that

[mint furnace]

Also does anyone else think it’s strange how pharloom has a singular non citadel affiliated group

Seems like they might have killed them all

[buoyant salmon]

what group is it

[mint furnace]

Stilkin

[quartz salmon]

So the price for defying the Masters is being compressed into a Steelheart

i dont think Zi has had that happen to herself more like, some of her people were made like that

[wary plover]

Which one might that be

[heavy falcon]

What are the implications of the surface/nameless town? Was pharloom a surface town once until GMS showed up and promised them prosperity? That's what I understand from the needolin dialogue.

[mint furnace]

And only reason they’re alive is because I doubt the citadel can go there safely

[brisk finch]

The Citadel is really old, but multiple groups have ruled it (The Weavers, the Conductors, maybe GMS more directly at some point etc)

[wary plover]

I have never heard of them

[timber pond]

Zi Describes herself as "We" in most of her Diolouge

[mint furnace]

Stilkin?

I think I’m spelling it right I forgot

[buoyant salmon]

Hm wait

we never got the real conclusion to the Grimmchild

[zinc pivot]

yeah Stilkin, those mf in Bilewater

[mint furnace]

It’s groal and his guys, also the pinmasters

Basically they were just chilling and then the citadel dumped a shit ton of toxic waste into their home

Causing PD, BW, and SR(?) to form

[wary plover]

Wait really? The pinmasters are connected to groal?

[valid compass]

He will grow on without the knight and spawn grimmkin from his heart and the troupe forms again

[mint furnace]

Same species

[quartz salmon]

yeah we the steelhearts probably

[brisk finch]

I thought the third pinmaster was killed in Ducts?

[mint furnace]

Floppy noses, there’s also a dead third pinmaster in bile water

[zinc pivot]

Very similar to a stilkin design wise, also the dilapidated pinmaster balloon in BW

[buoyant salmon]

or maybe he will go and find the Knight and somehow come to Pharloom /copium

[mint furnace]

It’s BW iirc, were you get the sling

I wonder how they died? Because it doesn’t seem like the pinmasters aren’t friends with their species

[valid compass]

Also do you guys think the Grimm troupe was formed by the bugs created by the heart or is it just bugs who were just interested in the group and put on a costume

[brisk finch]

Sorry ye, the Wreathe spawn location

[zinc pivot]

Probably of despair, since there's no sign of harm on pinmaster

[brisk finch]

Regardless, not literally Groal

[mint furnace]

As always probably higher being influence

[brisk finch]

As far as I know

[buoyant salmon]

It kinda also a hivemind too, since everyone wearing the mask has their personality changed

[zinc pivot]

Unlike the poor seeker snail (not really since snail shamans are assholes)

[mint furnace]

Death by maggot

[brisk finch]

That seems to just be how masks work, based on Hornet's dialogue with the mask maker

[wary plover]

I don't hate the snail shamans

[buoyant salmon]

like the muscular dude not remember a thing after remove the troupe

[valid compass]

Ohhh so kind of like the godseeker lot

[buoyant salmon]

yeah but you can see that a lot of Troupe member inside the Heart domain too

[brisk finch]

I like that the shamans genuinely thought Hornet was fully in on the plan
They weren't betraying her or tricking her, they just didn't see a need to mention the void part
"eh, she saw through the disguise, clearly she knows"

[mint furnace]

I’m a snail shaman defender, how the fuck were they supposed to know GMS would have a parent child defender reaction

The plan worked flawlessly, if anything it’s laces fault

[zinc pivot]

They have the "the end justifies the means" attitude so it irks me

[brisk finch]

I think they were being dumb, but not malicious and that the plan could have worked and saved them all
Similar to PK, actually
Just kind of smug about it

[ancient dock]

Nag they got what they deserved killed so many bugs

[buoyant salmon]

tbh TC should add a new ending: instead asking Snail Shaman, she just shout "shaw" and "git gud" to summon the Shade Lord

[timber pond]

Yep.
After the events of act 3, The masters WILL hunt her.
If hornets attitude is anything to go by, She will want to stop Her peruses at the source. The Steel City.
If they Are Shades,or something akin, ,like Jhinn Implies, Then thier Power Could even dwarf that of Pale Beings, Lest they merely comand great power and not own it. But to Be "complete" Like Void heart is.... They must posses great power themselves.

[mint furnace]

What else could they have done though

Void bomb is the one fix we know for higher beings

[valid compass]

They were ok with hornet being consumed too

[mint furnace]

Granted we only see 2 (3) die, but

[brisk finch]

Talked it through with Hornet so she could mention possible complications to the plan
Would Hornet have guessed Lace? No. Did they try? No.

[ancient dock]

They all died

[mint furnace]

It doesn’t seem like they know too much about her

[mint furnace]

And to what? Void everytime

[timber pond]

Also Mr mushrooms dialogue might be talking about Both The Citadel of stone That stood before the current one, and the steel city.

[cyan herald]

The superior deity.

[mint furnace]

Pale king is presumably void too

[zinc pivot]

Well, to be fair the only clue Hornet knows about GMS love for Lace is in
her fucking silk heart

[mint furnace]

Mr mushroom is the mushroom god

[brisk finch]

Right, but the whole plan relied on her and she became a coconspirator
She should've been included more, by all accounts.
Buuuut, I think it's more of a character flaw than a They're Bad People thing

[zinc pivot]

And even then its cryptic

[cyan herald]

Wise words

[cyan herald]

Real

[valid compass]

What is the steelheart lore? I haven't finished steel soul

[buoyant salmon]

Cherry god when

[wary plover]

Can I just say I think there's someone out there making "higher beings". My theory is that they're trying to create bugs superpower causing them to mutate into what we know as higher beings. The radiance and gms both feel like failed experiments

[brisk finch]

The Shamans thought they had a foolproof plan that would also show the world how Right they were and then... it didn;t work out as intended
And they died to fix it

[mint furnace]

Okay but if you’re having someone set off a void bomb I wouldn’t tell them “HEY, THIS WILL PROBABLY BE A SUICIDE MISSION BUT YOULL SAVE EVERYONE”

[brisk finch]

See above 😄

[ancient dock]

Shamans died due to casting red memory spell disintegration on the bodies

[mint furnace]

Yeah, it’s asshole behavior but it also would have saved pharloom

[flint wadi]

they couldve told that they were using void but i feel like then hornet wouldnt follow through with it lol

[mint furnace]

And they sacrificed themselves later anyway

[zinc pivot]

Not because they got everbloom'd?

[mint furnace]

Exactly

[timber pond]

The Masters desire to be arbiters of all void related activites, and if you summon it unsanctioned YOU WILL be hunted to the ends of the earth.

[mint furnace]

Again, laces fault

[brisk finch]

Right, I don't think they're bad people, just smug jerks with an overall good plan who didn't think through possible complications and didn't include their coconspiritor in the full preperations
But they did what they could to fix it

[ancient dock]

They are not void

[proud umbra]

What is Pharloom's obsession with bells? I don't quite get it yet

[flint wadi]

act 3 happens entirely cause of lace

[mint furnace]

And I’ll stand by that

[wary plover]

Why does hornet just take it when people talk behind her back infront of her.

[valid compass]

I thought this would be the story of silksong where we would fight the creator of higher beings

[quartz salmon]

yes i believe that the Steel Assasins will be sent to Pharloom or to wherever Hornet is after the conclusion of Act 3 and then she'll have a motive to track them down in their City of Steel

And yes these Masters seem to be really powerful, so powerful that they can hunt you from anywhere in this world and either enslave you, destroy you, or "compress" you, totally ignoring the fact that you might be a god. They just do it

[brisk finch]

It seems like the music was used by the weavers to keep GMS asleep back in the day and the conductors continued that trend when they left, but a lot of that stuff is vague

[wary plover]

No this would probably be the final game of the hk franchise

[zinc pivot]

It sounds like a
God of Gods

[mint furnace]

You’re forgetting something

[valid compass]

So they maintain it such that no one messes with the void

[buoyant salmon]

cough Shade Lord cough

[wary plover]

What

[zinc pivot]

The end of the Hallownest's story yes, but not HK universe as a whole I believe

[mint furnace]

2035

[proud umbra]

And who are the conductors alongside the other 2? Why did they not wake up GMS? Why did Weavers (Assuming some remained) fall?

[wary plover]

Who tf is Pablo

[timber pond]

YEs but they seem so powerful that they could smite the radiance,GMS, and the pale king themselves if they wanted according to This

[proud umbra]

You did not see the secret scene after act 3 huh

[valid compass]

Wow

[brisk finch]

The Conductors appear to have been a high ruling class in the Weaver era, who became proper rulers after the Weavers fled (for GMS reasons?). GMS appears to have been a source of silk for the bugs of the Citadel and their messy Whiteward experiments, so her being asleep was beneficial

[mint furnace]

It doesn’t matter how much armor you have, living angry ink will eat you

[zinc pivot]

Probably after the weavers fled nobody was maintaining the song properly, and the system falls

[wary plover]

No i didn't beat act 3 😦

[zinc pivot]

along with the silk overdose

[brisk finch]

Take everything I say about the Citadel's past with a grain of salt please, a lot of this stuff hasn't been hashed out fully yet
Skong is both clearer and vaguer than HK

[mint furnace]

Then gettouttahere

Go get the yuri ending yourself

[buoyant salmon]

tbh Life Blood for some reason does not grow in the Abyss this time

[wary plover]

I've already seen the endings

[proud umbra]

Yeah fair enough, Pharloom was better off so I can kinda understand even if they didn't have as many reasons as the weavers

[wary plover]

I can't because because nyleth is too hard 😦

[neat crane]

It probably has nothing to do with it

[buoyant salmon]

git gud

[brisk finch]

You could argue that the wormways explode in it because of the Void reaching Pharloom proper. It could be for timeskip reasons, but the void reading is also valid

[proud umbra]

So GMS leaked because the song was keeping her in place...?

[ancient dock]

GIT GUD

[errant owl]

hornet and lace clearly seem more like a sisterly relationship more than anything. hornet feels like the older sibling

[buoyant salmon]

proceed to dream nail and become void god

[proud umbra]

so true. I pray for a dlc someday that makes things clearer

[zinc pivot]

also funny thing i noticed
Silk and Lace are quite similar visually with thicc cake and black visage

[mint furnace]

I always got toxic yuri but yeah that could be it too lmao

[buoyant salmon]

WHAT

[zinc pivot]

Lace is truly made in her image

[proud umbra]

I know what you are...

[ancient dock]

Lace is a child to Hornet think on that

[errant owl]

Yeah exactly. Lace is little sister energy to hornet

[mint furnace]

SHES IMMORTAL

[wary plover]

??? Howww

[buoyant salmon]

wait is the Vessels creation is the result of 3some?

[brisk finch]

I don't want things fully clear, but I do hope that some of the details get hashed out
For example: if the conductors took the "throne" from the weavers ("greedily")
But the weavers fled GMS willingly
But GMS was still asleep when they left
then what is the actual order of events

[zinc pivot]

frankly we don't know WHEN was lace created compared to Hornet

[errant owl]

It doesnt matter, its about the dynamic/vibes, not their "actual" age

[buoyant salmon]

the void, Pale King and White Lady

[valid compass]

Lace should get a mask made for herself so that she goes super saiyan and we get to fight Eternal Lace in the dlc

[mint furnace]

Okay good

[zinc pivot]

but yeah Lace is mentally 10 year old

[brisk finch]

WL+PK=baby+void=vessel

[ancient dock]

Hornet refers to her a young child multiple times throughout the game

[wary plover]

A third lace fight?....

[proud umbra]

Not really, the eggs were laid by the White lady after PK got her pregnant

These were placed in the void and they were consumed

[buoyant salmon]

nah making her final boss in dlc sound lame

[mint furnace]

I’ve had people who have the reading comprehension in the fifth grade and say “caretaker says child, lace is 5”

[valid compass]

She necessarily doesn't have to be the final boss

[proud umbra]

So the void didn't really do the deed with anybody, rather taking over newborns before cracking their eggs

[mint furnace]

DLC duel boss

[buoyant salmon]

we are venom void

[mint furnace]

Like shakra and garmond

[brisk finch]

I've seen people counteract "Shakra calls Hornet child" by saying Hornet corrects people
But at what point would Lace be out there correcting people??

[buoyant salmon]

Shade Lord will be the boss to test Hornet power

[mint furnace]

She just has a “tee hee~” personality

[brisk finch]

She was made in the image of a child by the world's most toxic mom
That does not mean she is one

[zinc pivot]

so the deed is done to newborn vessels, thats just worse

[valid compass]

According to shakra and mask maker even hornet is a child and still is yet to grow

[brisk finch]

Lots of narc parents want eternal children, they don't get what they want

[errant owl]

personality has nothing to do with age lets be real

[flint wadi]

lace is an imitation of a child, hence her nature and look, but shes still kinda ancient

lacenet depends entirely on how you view lace

do you love yuri that much to descend that slippery slope?

[proud umbra]

Not really the deed, more like killing all their kids and taking posession of their bodies

[wary plover]

It'll be funny if the DLC releases and it's really just us fighting lace for a third time

[mint furnace]

Hornet is a very young immortal it seems

Like probably not more than a few hundred

[brisk finch]

I played HK and did white flower, I'm a big yuri enjoye-

[ancient dock]

Lace isn't immortal as well as we seen with her older sister so she is young

[brisk finch]

third hah

[buoyant salmon]

though it amazing that the void does not kill most of the child and proceed to make them sentient enough instead of just taking over completely

[brisk finch]

She's older than the fall of Hallownest by a mile tho

[mint furnace]

I think phantom is like that because they were kinda discarded

[mint furnace]

We also just don’t get timeframes

[brisk finch]

Lace is absolutely immortal, as long as there's a silk supply
She's a vampire

[ancient dock]

They are degrading

[mint furnace]

I’m mostly estimating

[proud umbra]

Lace almost got consumed too, same thing just halfway

[buoyant salmon]

it sad that Hornet does not remember her mom face

[mint furnace]

Well yeah, they just need to eat silk

[brisk finch]

Nah, but Mask Maker calls her Old One, which is telling to me

[flint wadi]

thats what being generations old do to you

[zinc pivot]

I think its still up to chance, considering there were so many eggs
its like fish irl, many eggs only for a few to actually be born properly

[mint furnace]

So as long as lace sticks with Hornet she is immortal

[brisk finch]

Because Mask Maker is exactlu the sort of truth character who can give us an idea

[buoyant salmon]

yeah but what I mean most of the vessels isn't like aggressive

[ancient dock]

So not true immortal

[mint furnace]

Okay, ageless

[errant owl]

https://tenor.com/view/power-rangers-red-green-jason-scott-tommy-oliver-gif-10783616654004132501

[proud umbra]

Hornet is young in terms of how long her lifespan is but old than most bugs alive, Elderbug is literally younger than her

[brisk finch]

Do you count vampires as immortal

[buoyant salmon]

man the Pale king must have been tired from laying all of that eggs

[mint furnace]

Trade offer:

I receive: your silk

You receive:

[zinc pivot]

immortal implies unkillable
so vampires aren't

[buoyant salmon]

(cuz white lady is a tree)

[zinc pivot]

eternal youth at best

[brisk finch]

Elderbug is one of the youngest characters in hk lol
and even then, personality wise I wouldn't say she's not at least a young adult
+you can't discount experience

[errant owl]

hornet likes the company, she can't deny it

[buoyant salmon]

virtually immortal

[valid compass]

Despite her age she is pretty whimsical and joyful

[mint furnace]

Yeah

[ancient dock]

Hornet is probably centuries old compared to Lace

[flint wadi]

because she is perpetually young

[mint furnace]

I mean she literally dives into the fucking void to save her

[brisk finch]

I really like the easy cameraderie between Shakra and Hornet, but the appeal of Hornet just having someone around she won't lose so soon is too big for me

[proud umbra]

Why would an old person be miserable and sad

[mint furnace]

If the shades weren’t chill like that she would have died

[bronze spire]

is there ||Mask/Spool fragments in Act 3||

[flint wadi]

age doesnt really matter here hornet is at her prime indefinitely

[buoyant salmon]

technically save the kingdom is 1st priority

[zinc pivot]

4 of em masks

[mint furnace]

4 masks I think idk about spool

[proud umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/breaking-bad-walter-white-jesse-pinkman-why-are-you-green-what-is-wrong-with-you-gif-774466718616765419

[valid compass]

That's what old people are lmao

[proud umbra]

Not in my country but yeah I get your point

[mint furnace]

Sure sure but we know the real agenda

[flint wadi]

old people grow old

hornet doesnt

[buoyant salmon]

it's either that, or they become like a newborn baby

[zinc pivot]

I feel like age hardens Hornet but with young body comes young mind

[brisk finch]

Hornet had to be mature much too soon even for an immortal
Lace had to remain childlike and "pure" much too long
There's a nice parallel there

[flint wadi]

^

[buoyant salmon]

I think she have the Pale King short gene

[brisk finch]

Based on what lol

[mint furnace]

Hornets in her teenage immortal years it seems

[ancient dock]

Hornet has a adult mind in a child body

[mint furnace]

She feels a little too trusting to me

[zinc pivot]

considering she's still have capacity for whimsical fun she ain't truly old in mind yet

[brisk finch]

...this is a very sad outlook on life

[buoyant salmon]

so wait, the Vessels when born already have a mask, so is those mask kinda made from White Lady wood?

[mint furnace]

When though?

[zinc pivot]

its their bloody skull no?

[ancient dock]

Look at how she corrects behaviour in the game with theif and the flea and the npc who tried to kiss her definitely adult

[buoyant salmon]

the void already eat all the flesh in them

also they are children of a tree

[brisk finch]

*Root, HK canonically has no trees

[mint furnace]

I more so mean witch crest

Like Hornet what the fuck keep your guard up

[brisk finch]

TBF that's after 2 quests of help

[buoyant salmon]

let call it "pale wood"

[brisk finch]

The third quest is the betrayal

[bronze spire]

||I'm not actually in Act 3 yet, does that mean I'm missing 3 mask shards||

[brisk finch]

It's root, I'm not kidding. The only wood thing we know of is shellwood

[ancient dock]

To be fair greyroot was very obscure

[buoyant salmon]

since the witch in SS is also a "wood" creature

[brisk finch]

Root

[mint furnace]

Fair enough

[proud umbra]

Actually yeah! The vessels lose control when their mask/shell breaks, it's the reason why we see the void being after we die

The white lady and her people have properties to counter or focus it for whatever reasons (As also seen with the flower)

[zinc pivot]

there are only two greyroot quests, the second one is betrayal

[brisk finch]

Like, I'm sorry if that's annoying, but that's just what it is

[brisk finch]

Don't you also get the poison there or am I misremembering?

[zinc pivot]

yes exactly

[mint furnace]

• shellwood

• actual wood 3 minutes later

[bronze spire]

jesus christ

[brisk finch]

Shellwood isn't wood, canonically

[buoyant salmon]

it still wood though

[zinc pivot]

theres the poison quest and theres the rebirth quest

[brisk finch]

Not according to TC themselves

[proud umbra]

??

[brisk finch]

Trees do not exist, only roots

[buoyant salmon]

link it pls

[brisk finch]

Tree

no trees in hallownest, only roots, leaves and plants.

[brisk finch]

I don't usually go with cut content but this has never been contradicted

[brisk finch]

devnotes

[buoyant salmon]

then LINK it

[brisk finch]

How do I link gamefiles you own?

[zinc pivot]

strangely enough shell is said to be hard in HK
but shellwood ain't

[brisk finch]

I only have the text

[buoyant salmon]

wood is a material of many plants

[brisk finch]

Wood to Shellwood

Doesn't come up much, but this is probably what Zote's Nail is made from. Also what the beams in the mines are made from.

[buoyant salmon]

just because it called "root" does not mean it not made by WOOD

[brisk finch]

I'm not saying it's impossible for them to have changed their minds, but nothing in Skong contradicts this

[buoyant salmon]

again
wood is a material of a plant

[brisk finch]

They specify that Shellwood is distinct from wood

then skong introduces... shellwood

[zinc pivot]

the concept of materials in HKverse isn't exactly clear aside from rocks and bones huh

[brisk finch]

If anything, canonizing Shellwood in the most explicit way possible kind of shows that they did keep these notes in mind

[ivory forum]

So
Is hollow knights "true" ending actually not radiance but godhome?

[buoyant salmon]

also why there is no article of the witch yet

[ancient dock]

Most nails are made from steel no?

[brisk finch]

So far, it appears that either Embrace the Void or Delicate Flower (depending on how you interpret the final scene of Flower) is canon, yes.

[zinc pivot]

its up to debate until the next DLC really

[brisk finch]

Yes, Hornet's is from Hivesteel, for example

[fair void]

would cursed ending be closer to radiance?

[ivory forum]

Thats so crazy

[zinc pivot]

steel is made from ore so a kind of rock

[brisk finch]

ETV and DF both allow for the Shade Lord to be present and for the Hollow Knight to not be present (they are still alive last we saw them)
Whereas if Dream No More is canon, that would mean THK is weirdly absent and Shade Lord has no origin

[ember river]

What do you mean it has no trees

[brisk finch]

TC:

Tree

no trees in hallownest, only roots, leaves and plants.

[zinc pivot]

this has the same level of banger as mithril in LoTR

[ember river]

In hallownest, Shellwood clearly has trees

[brisk finch]

Shellwood is a separate substance

[ember river]

The hollow knight might just be elsewhere, you know

[fair void]

shade lord is more present after the pale king sacrificed thousands oh children to him

[brisk finch]

It's Zote's nail material

[brisk finch]

Shade Lord is exclusively shown in the Godhome endings

[brisk finch]

Only explains 1 point

[ember river]

Stop trying to solve something that was made ambiguous on purpose

[zinc pivot]

Plant life in HK has never been depicted as trees, not even withered one
Just look in verdania

[brisk finch]

+Godhome endings were written way after the one interview where they said they wanted all endings canon+ were the last endings written+ tie into the flower's importance

[brisk finch]

I am arguing it's not ambiguous

[wary plover]

Wait zotes nail is made of shellwooood? Bro wtf then why is the area so dangerous

[ember river]

You are arguing nonsense

[brisk finch]

Wood to Shellwood

Doesn't come up much, but this is probably what Zote's Nail is made from. Also what the beams in the mines are made from.

[brisk finch]

You have no argument against me

[ember river]

It's obvious from a normal writing perspective

[brisk finch]

Showing the sprite only shown in one set of endings and no others implied, visually, that those are followed up on

[ember river]

I have the argument of them adding references to both endings which is the 101 of writing ambiguity

[ember river]

Void given form doesn't show up in godhome for that matter, neither does the shade army

[zinc pivot]

Love how 8 years later and we still have no fucking clue what shellwood comes from

[zinc pivot]

actually it DOES

[brisk finch]

All of the vessel/shades always exist in game in all endings because of the Abyss
Shade Lord exists only in the Godhome branch

[ember river]

Stop calling it shade lord, the knight is the lord of shades the moment he gets the void heart

That's when he's referred to as such

[brisk finch]

I am not typing "lord of shades" every time lol

I am referring to the big Knight figure at the end of godhome and that being needs a shorthand name

[wary plover]

Beams in the mines?

[ember river]

I mean void given focus isn't the shade lord, the knight is by default

[wary plover]

Void given form

Not focus

[ember river]

Void given focus is the big god of gods thing

[ember river]

Void given form is the knight shade wkth the tendrils

[brisk finch]

This is not wood from trees
it's shellwood

[wary plover]

Also I might be crazy but "no mind to think" is from this series right? Or no

[ember river]

Yes

[zinc pivot]

yes

[brisk finch]

Yes
Iconic, and proven incorrect XD

[wary plover]

What was the full poem

[ember river]

No mind to think
No will to break
No voice to cry suffering
Born of god and void
You shall seal the blinding light that plagues their dreams
You are the vessel
You are the Hollow Knight

[neat sandal]

does shell stronger than metal?

[brisk finch]

I know, I'm referring to Void Given Focus (had to double check that I was typing the right thing) also known as ShadeLord in the files

[ivory forum]

it's very weird that true ending would be embrace the void/df but like i dig it

[neat sandal]

why hornet made tool from shell not from some kind of metal at underwork

[brisk finch]

I think it's the same as wood vs metal
It's not sharp, so less effective as a sword

[zinc pivot]

gameplay wise shell is frequently used as shield in HK, lorewise im not sure

[wary plover]

Ohh NO COST TOO GREAT that was it

No mind to think

[zinc pivot]

shellwood however

[sacred heath]

easier to access and/or work

[brisk finch]

For me, it fits both as the final ending(s) written and the ones that introduce the Flower's effect on the void (minus a line or so from White Lady)

+and this is entirely selfishly: knowing that THK could still be alive in that branch is hilarious and I need them at Fleatopia

[sacred heath]

also gameplay wise having to go back to a single location to refill your tools constantly would be hell

[wary plover]

Why would they be made of shellwood

[brisk finch]

Ask TC not me

I didn't write that, I am quoting

[wary plover]

Where does it say that wtf

[zinc pivot]

On the topic of everbloom
So did white lady know about the bloom before or after Ze'mer came with her own blooms?

[brisk finch]

Wood to Shellwood

Doesn't come up much, but this is probably what Zote's Nail is made from. Also what the beams in the mines are made from.

Tree

no trees in hallownest, only roots, leaves and plants.

[ivory forum]

where are you quoting these btw?

[brisk finch]

Devnotes

[ivory forum]

ahh

[brisk finch]

Like, may be on the wiki? but the source is the gamefiles on your device

And for a lot of things I don't fully trust devnotes of course

But they literally introduced SHELLWOOD in skong and nothing contradicts this

I mean
Greyroot is called root, no reason to assume they're the sole tree creature

kay ye, hollowknightwiki has em

[wary plover]

Actually I think greyroot isn't a real creature, it's like a sock puppet by the root system to trick people

It shakes back and forth like a sock puppet

[brisk finch]

Oh I think that's absolutely a way to read that, but my point is that that still doesn't contradict the note XD
I'm not trying to limit theorizing here, just pointing out where it seems to contradict established things

Greyroot is definitely a strange being, at least

[zinc pivot]

Greyroot does witchery though, so i think it has an identity

[brisk finch]

Or the wider Greyroot system does

[wary plover]

Greyroot unnerves me I would literally yarnaby the whole of pharloom just to get rid of it

[brisk finch]

Gender notes
the hollow knights have no gender. Check for hims and hes. Is the Wyrm King gendered? probably. or is it that when the wyrm took king form it gained a gender?Hornet is the Gendered Child. She can be referred to as female.

Bretta White Saviour
To obscure the knight's gender in this instance, White Prince should probably be replaced with White Saviour.
Blessed be their own words, and the much easier to search wiki lol

[zinc pivot]

where do you suggest we find steel spines large enough for a major removal?

[brisk finch]

I'll stop posting devnotes for now but ye, this stuff is just up there

[brisk finch]

What gets me is that even Yarnaby can't remove the parasite/curse
Just weaken it

[wary plover]

It's funny because pharloom is being invaded by different factions and groal the great, one of the most hated ones, doesn't even stand a chance against the sinister of the other factions

[quartz salmon]

Which only coincidentally works because Hornet is a demigod and absorbs it

[brisk finch]

I'm not even sure just being a demigod would be enough, especially if we consider the theory that the White Lady is such a spawn
It may literally just be the luck of being capable of binding it

Thanks, Herrah

[sacred heath]

groal the great is powered by swamp gas and spite

[quartz salmon]

Maybe

[zinc pivot]

Pharloom was INVADING other factions wdym, three died out and one barely breathing

[brisk finch]

Groal the Great is a union leader fighting for the poor people of Bilewater's right to clean water and fresh air

Hornet, princess that she is, couldn't let that stan- okay I can't continue that sentence

[wary plover]

We have strands of silk, plotting snails, creeping roots, Sherman's cult, weird flea things, and spreading lifeblood that's vying for control over pharloom

[brisk finch]

But pure lake makes me very sad, knowing what Bilewater was like

[wary plover]

I meant the area not the kingdom

[sacred heath]

he killed the shaman and god knows how many others
actually maybe killing the shaman was a good thing those fuckers suck

[brisk finch]

The flea are just traveling and the lifeblood was invited XD

[brisk finch]

forever raging against the Citadel that chokes their caves and sees them suffer.

[quartz salmon]

Not invited just replanted
It was already hidden in Pharloom but contained

[wary plover]

Not the caravan sry, the ones that look like fleas and are a lot creepier

[brisk finch]

Have you seeN Bilewater? Most people are raging!

[sacred heath]

groal was justified actually

[brisk finch]

Actually, true. I do think PK was 100% right about lifeblood specifically

[brisk finch]

I can't think of which enemies you mean rn

[wary plover]

What did PK say about lifeblood

[brisk finch]

there should be no lifeblood

[modest coyote]

groal was justified to rebel but not to fucking eat a random snail

[brisk finch]

(I'll see if I can find a quote lol)

[modest coyote]

like u do remember he ate a random snail shaman

[brisk finch]

Depends on what the Snail did

[modest coyote]

HE ATE IT

[brisk finch]

It was playing with soul stuff!

[sacred heath]

asab
all snails are bastards

[zinc pivot]

suck the living soul out of him, but yeah close guess

[silent phoenix]

Does anyone know where Pinstress goes afte ryou beat her on mount fay?

[wary plover]

Groal ate a snail out of a form of kindness I believe

[brisk finch]

She follows Pilby

(disappears from the game)

I mean living Pilby here btw

Dead Pilby gets a nice funeral
Living Pilby vanishes after Pilgrim's Rest

Pebb just leaves the game after Bonebottom, but Pilby gets enough of a journey that it's really odd

[zinc pivot]

Oh yeah it was said Pilby visited Pilgrim's Rest
I haven't found him there yet

[brisk finch]

Same with Huntress if she lives

You can check the files, there's nothing more for them

Dead Huntress nets you a new npc

[wary plover]

I think they're just part of the thousands of pilgrims who vanished or died

[zinc pivot]

||Pebb perished to the haunting, you can find him in Marrow bottom entry, he dropped 55 rosaries||

[brisk finch]

Ye but you can specifically get Pilby to live if you talk to them enough and get friendship points up+get to act 2 on time

You can learn their name *at Pilgrim's Rest, even.
It's just such an odd... nothing

[wary plover]

Yes but after pilgrims rest

[brisk finch]

Entirely fair enough

[brisk finch]

I don't personally see the point in making PIlby just another "contextualize the toughness of the journey/give a face to random pilgrim's" character if they just cease to be post location 2
I think the ending where they die is much nicer because of it, which is sad because I was so happy when I heard they could die after they'd already safely left for me

Pebb is different (especially now that I know you can find their body) because they leave after location 1

There's no expectation of a journey

[ebon silo]

Is it me or does the hunter king from sands of karak has the same icon of the hunter crest or am I just stupid and that it actually is

[brisk finch]

(+you can influence Pilby, you can't really do that with Pebb)

[zinc pivot]

also do you know the Pilgrim in the Bone bottom bellway also dies?

Also in marrow, that poor sod

[wary plover]

I dunno I never cared much for pilby or pebbs or most of the pilgrims not even sherma. My favorite character is garmand because he was weak af but he still fought

[brisk finch]

I saw them yes :(( felt responsible

[silent phoenix]

noooo

[brisk finch]

My favorite is actually Flick lol

The Fixer

Second would be Shakra (my beloved! Maps!!!!!!) and third is a fight between Sherma and Lace

[wary plover]

I actually don't mind flick except he put up a statue of himself which felt a bit vain

[brisk finch]

I mean, he did say he'd do that and he makes you one for yourself

It's an icon of hope, something for the town to rally around

[zinc pivot]

Sherma will wake lace out of depression with positivity, low diff

[brisk finch]

And he doesn't give up after act 3, even if he's clearly also emotionally hurt

I wish I could help the Survivor's Camp

[zinc pivot]

well you could, deliver them goods

[ember river]

It's so sad that the vendor dies

[wary plover]

Which vendor

[flint wadi]

which yeah

[ember river]

Bone bottom

[brisk finch]

Yeah but it's not enough
I want to see change happen like pre-act 3

I think TC did a really good job with the multiple settlements btw
They feel so alive and I care deeply about their safety

[flint wadi]

fairly certain she goes on a pilgrimage

[heavy falcon]

What are the implications of the surface/nameless town? Was pharloom a surface town once until GMS showed up and promised them prosperity? That's what I understand from the needolin dialogue.

[brisk finch]

I paid for all safety upgrades immediately, because I was worried they'd be attacked

[ember river]

There's no survivor's camp before act 3 though

[flint wadi]

though that could just be another word for death

[brisk finch]

But there is bonebottom

[ember river]

The weavers lured them below, not GMS

[brisk finch]

It's the same people

[ember river]

You can help them

[brisk finch]

+you can fix up bellhart pre act 3 but not in act 3

i do not consider radiant quests to be help

[zinc pivot]

i feel like thats the point of act 3, no matter what help you bring no changes are made until you finish the job

it only nails it in even more than act 2

[flint wadi]

i think the promises came from weavers, thats how they managed to kickstart the cult of the citadel

[brisk finch]

Also lmao guys, how would I know they're called Survivor's Camp if I didn't see that name in the delivery menu? It's not called that on the map

[ember river]

If you buy all her stock? I didn't buy the brooch and then she was missing, pillagers were sacking the camp and her stock was sold by the thief boss whose name I always forget

[wary plover]

The reason I like garmand and zaza a lot is because he's not strong like shakra and he's not young and hopeful like Sherma. He's old he's tired he sees a bunch of bs and I think he always knew he would never make it back out but he kept going kept fighting and kept shouting because as Steinbeck said the corn can go as long as something else remained

[ember river]

I didn't know where they were until I saw it in the list and took the delivery to them

[brisk finch]

I think the feeling is really strong, I just wish there was an act 3.5 or something
Hallownest was in stasis so the post ending reload was emotionally fine to me, but with skong I find myself straining against it

[ember river]

I like garmond and zaza because they are a don quixote reference and that's enough for me

[brisk finch]

I think that's how most people find them
I was running around looking for signs of Flick lol

[flint wadi]

oh that might be it then, when she sells out she says shes going to start the road and you dont see her after that
i dont know if she survives either way though

[heavy falcon]

I see

[ember river]

Until I saw that I just thought everyone in bone bottom died because of my desire to 100% the game

[brisk finch]

With Garmond and Zaza, I wish Zaza either just died after a few reloads, or that they moved to Bellhart or something

[zinc pivot]

true, especially since TC didn't bother to show us the world state AFTER the deed is done
Did they spend there time animating Lace's cake with one hand or sth

[heavy falcon]

Pretty sure you can find her as a haunted bug somewhere

[flint wadi]

maybe, i dont remember at this point

[brisk finch]

if Pharloom was also in stasis/basically dead like Hallownest it'd not matter, but there's so many living people I still want to help!

[flint wadi]

ik that little pilgrim can survive though

[ember river]

I like that they stay by his side

[flint wadi]

(they didnt on my save 🥹 )

[zinc pivot]

marrow has a pilgrim that drop 55 rosaries

[brisk finch]

Songclave is basically fine, but let me fix up the place that gave me a home! Let me get the survivor's literally anything!

[wary plover]

"The biggest madness of all: to see life as it is not as what it could be."

[flint wadi]

oh :(

[brisk finch]

Well yes, but I don't like that they eternally live by his side
It feels unfinished (not literally, but emotionally)
I kept reloading to see if anything would change, if they'd stop moving

[zinc pivot]

sorry that i gotta break it to you buddy

[flint wadi]

i wonder how little pilgrim survives though

ik you can meet them later on pilgrims rest but what are the requirements

[brisk finch]

Pilby? The treck to Pilgrim's Rest isn't that bad
but afterwards they're just poof from the world

[brisk finch]

Rhino door

[wary plover]

[zinc pivot]

You enter act 2 without benching at bonebottom after the skull tyrant quest

[ebon silo]

Man the witch atk hotbox is so janky

[ember river]

Act 3 is meant to be much shorter in time than the rest (and kinda is) so not that many time passing events can be seen

[ember river]

Witch crest?

[ebon silo]

Yeah pretty janky

[wary plover]

Which crest?

[brisk finch]

That makes Garmond's fate worse tho, because I saw him a minute before in a random room

Timeline wise