sk-lore

[ebon silo]

And those servants I assume ran away cough cough deepnest?

[pine pecan]

She called them her daughters, and she has some sort of bond with Lace. IDK, maybe she wanted family?

[ember river]

But if Adam and Eve didn't have free will they simply couldn't have disobeyed God

[vague whale]

I know it quite well, unfortunately

[wary plover]

wtf is this version that she's talking about lol. Feels like something the satanic temple would say

[ember river]

Also weavers did have free will, if not actual freedom

[ebon silo]

Iirc she wanted to be a mother that badly so?

[pine pecan]

"She called us her daughters" "She Lied"

[lime nova]

Oh my god I'm gonna crash out

[ember river]

Yes

[lone nimbus]

Alr, so wym infection? You mean ant infestation? Or do I have bad memory?

[marble tartan]

The weavers are so weaver like. It makes the silk spin into a song from how weaver they are

[slow musk]

imo one of the worst parts of lace's thing is that she was designed to be immature. she's literally not allowed to grow and mature as a person because gms wanted a kid

[craggy bison]

i did say infestation

[ebon silo]

Magnus vs silk gm who winning

[vague whale]

Yes, that's fine, but having free will isn't the moral of that story, nor the focus of it

[lone nimbus]

Probably an atheist, can't really blame em because they haven't read the bible I think

[ember river]

She lied because weavers are uplifted bugs, not born from her like Hornet and the Vessels were born from an actual higher being

[lone nimbus]

Alr, so I do have dyslexia

[craggy bison]

don't we all

[wary plover]

Don't we all

[deft zealot]

Regardless, I think it is a bit of a stretch to say Silksong's story has many parallels (to the Adam & Eve). I can see one with the first sinner (literally the "first sin" part) but besides that just coincidences.

[ember river]

That means they are not divine at all, and just enhanced normal bugs

[lone nimbus]

Fair enough

[pine pecan]

There are two big places with weaver lore, to the west of the final battle, you can see tons of weaver cages like the one Hornet was captured in. These seem to have been to capture the Weavers who fled, and extract the silk from them.

Also the First Sinner, and the post fight cutscene.

[ember river]

And even then the first sin is nothing like Adam's original sin

[wary plover]

This. They're nothing alike

[ebon silo]

I guess the first sinner was the one who first sin at her?

[pine pecan]

Here is a question: Why is there so much importance toward rextracting the silk from fallen bugs and weavers? Is silk finite?

[vague whale]

I'm the atheist here and I have read the Bible, genuinely I should not be the person who actually knows the story here when I don't believe it 😭

[vague whale]

Yep, indeed

[deft zealot]

I'm more inclined to think TC played a little too much Elden Ring before designing the Citadel though 👀

[lone nimbus]

Y'all this is the third time Ill ask on what happened to pharloom after the abandoned ending, please answer (insert black and white image of man crying meme)

[pine pecan]

Two interpretations: Either she was the first weaver, or the first weaver to abandon pharloom

[ebon silo]

captured to be made as an example

[wary plover]

Wait what

[ember river]

She was the first to sin by disagreeing with the established systems

[craggy bison]

i believe granny was extracting silk from people to free herself (maybe)

[wary plover]

wtf is the abandoned ending

[lone nimbus]

So, you are an Easter egg hunter?

[vague whale]

No, but the Citadel wanted full control over it

[deft zealot]

It's clearly stated that first sinner's sin was Apostasy (denouncement of faith)

[craggy bison]

what abandoned ending

[wary plover]

I've never seen this "abandoned ending"

[ember river]

That wasn't done by GMS, she was the source of that silk

[deft zealot]

Ending "B" is cut.

[lone nimbus]

parasite ending

[vague whale]

Uh, I'm not sure what you mean by that

[pine pecan]

The white ward cremates bugs to recapture their silk, Hornet is captured bc she can create silk, lots of other weavers were captured for their silk (from the cages west of GM silk fight)

[craggy bison]

nobody knows bro

[slow musk]

for the citadel, yeah, it was something they got from the weavers and used to extend their lives. once the weavers left/died out they had to hold on to every little bit of silk they had

[vague whale]

I recognize a ton of easter eggs in video games...? 😅

[deft zealot]

Pretty sure that's just an alternate cut of the same events depicted in ending "A"

[craggy bison]

oh yeah ture i forgot

[pine pecan]

Then all of Greymoor, all the haunted bugs there (except the craws) whole deal is to capture the falling silk and re spool it

[lone nimbus]

You hunt Easter eggs, good ones go LONG, so you'll need to read MULTIPLE books, especially religious ones to make sense out of the Easter eggs

[craggy bison]

they were talking about parasite ending not cut ending

[wary plover]

It's just a world building ending to show that other factions are in their own way vying for power

[lone nimbus]

I'll not want spoilers alr

[deft zealot]

oh whoops

[lone nimbus]

they are groot

[pine pecan]

But GM silk is still there?

[slow musk]

this is just a theory
but it's kind of implied that the twisted god takes over gms's silk threads and through them the citadel denizens who used it to extend their lives

[ember river]

Then it may be a good moment to leave the spoiler channel

[wary plover]

It's pretty obvious silk gives life and is an addictive substance so people keep going crazy for it

[craggy bison]

if you don't want spoilers then i don't recommend being in the silksong lore channel

[steady prawn]

it seems to me the surface village was once a shaman village based on the shell-ness of the house and area before it, maybe the shamans lived there and moved to the void cities after the found the void and started to worship it

[wary plover]

Think of silk like cocaine + divine live extender.

[slow musk]

yeah, but the weavers allied with the citadel specifically to keep her contained
i don't think even the citadel, as insane and callous as they are, wanted to mess with the higher being that they were specifically told to keep contained

[fierce fulcrum]

So i have realized. There are no male weaver implications in game like at all. All weavers we saw are woman and in effygies and rune harps no males were mentioned

[vague whale]

SILK BEAR

[ebon silo]

What do you guys think on what species bagged hornet like she said she had mates what kind though like who had the ability to bag hornet

[lone nimbus]

Nah I have a smooth brain and the bosses will make me forget by sheer pain

[pine pecan]

It seemed more like silk was religious practice, and they were doing diligence toward preserving it.

[craggy bison]

god damnit why are there so much drugs in hollow knight (infection, lifeblood, silk)

[vague whale]

yeah, all weavers are women

[lone nimbus]

waltuh universe

[pine pecan]

Yeah, and all are referred to Daughters or Sisters

[vague whale]

Obviously Hornet was bagging them

[lone nimbus]

Fair enough

[ember river]

They either had a limited supply and had to recycle it, or taking it from GMS's coccoon came at a cost or something

[wary plover]

What do you think took TC so long with the games

[ebon silo]

Even then what kind of species

[craggy bison]

they were on that lifeblood juice

[ember river]

I'm not sure of how they got a hold of silk

[lime nova]

Oh my god Lace even gets called a Knight by the game. They weren't being remotely subtle with the vessel allegory lmaooo

[ember river]

(Blue meth)

[ebon silo]

I would safely assume that hornet bagged a species of the beehive civilization

[craggy bison]

silk dreg catchers in greymoor i believe

[slow musk]

imo, hive warriors
she loves fluffy things, and stayed at the hive for a while. also, bees have short lifespans, so it's not surprising how she outlived them

[vague whale]

WALTUHBLOOD

[ember river]

Those are part of silk recycling I believe

[vague whale]

You're actually so right omg

[craggy bison]

idk i believe

[ebon silo]

Yeah probably the hive warriors mated with hornet and maybe her half called her hornet and that's how she got her name

[vague whale]

....vespa?

[ebon silo]

oh

[ember river]

I believe the idea was that Vespa gave her that name yes

[craggy bison]

yeah i think vespa gave her that name

[pine pecan]

Vespa was one of the Three Mothers

[craggy bison]

also guys what do y'all think about the "theory" that hornet called bell beast after herrah

[slow musk]

imo her name is hornet because she was very different from the bees? her 'stinger' (needle) was reusable, she was a lot more slender and fast, so they named her after the one species they knew had all those traits

[ember river]

I don't think that's the case

[craggy bison]

it's a long shot but who knows

[ember river]

What one should look at is the beast crest

[vague whale]

frankly if Team Cherry wants to tell us something about Vespa. well.

[ember river]

That one could be related to Herrah

[craggy bison]

what's up with it

oh i mean yeah beast

[vague whale]

I think people are reading into it too much

[ember river]

That it seems more likely to be related than the bell beast

[slow musk]

this lowk doesnt feel like a good theory
like why would you name your animal companion after your mother? after a sibling or friend sure but your mother?

[ebon silo]

Fans: tell us about vespa
Team cherry: I was gonna ask the same to you guys

[lime nova]

Also Herrah's name is obviously just a respelling of Hera, the Greek goddess of marriage, women, and childbirth

[vague whale]

GIRL WHAT

genuinely what are you talking about

[craggy bison]

i didn't know that but makes sense since she's the only weaver who had a child

[ember river]

She isn't

[pine pecan]

Funny how the Hive, the most useless place (lore wise) in hollow knight turns out to be such a huge deal in SS

[craggy bison]

who else?

[ember river]

Otherwise the 1/4th and 1/8th weavers mentioned wouldn't exist

[craggy bison]

what does that even mean

[vague whale]

you are the most childbirth-pilled person I have ever met

[wary plover]

My personal interpretation is that the land of pharloom being haunted by "silk and song" can be also seen as the problem of the social and religious-political issues that plague it. Temptation and Subjugation. Subjugation is cast down in layers between weavers and the people and gms and her children, but also through the controlling of silk and how the conductors subjugate gms. Temptation is cast upwards through greed and desire for silk, for religious redemption. But I think gms herself is subject to the temptation for children.

[lime nova]

Um, that TC named the character who's entire point is that she's a mother, had a union with an important character, and gave birth, after a character with the same name who's the god of those things?

[ember river]

That to have a weaver in fourth part then a pure weaver has had to give birth

And then her offspring too

So Herrah is definetely not the only weaver to produce offspring

[slow musk]

well what we do know is that the bees somehow had access to steel. this either means that there's iron veins around the hive that have since been exhausted or that the bees explored across huge distances to get their iron
ALSO ALSO, kingdom's edge probably had a lot of flowers before the infection began to spread, because otherwise how would the bees sustain themselves and make that much honey

[ember river]

Also there are little weavers all over Deepnest, those are weaver children

[craggy bison]

oh true

[ember river]

So several weavers did reproduce

[deft zealot]

"childbirth-pilled"
That's my queue. Good night chat.

[vague whale]

you are reading so hard into this for no good reason

[lime nova]

This is the fucking lore channel you moron

[wary plover]

Ay don't be mean

[lime nova]

Bruh, they've been rude to me this whole time

[wary plover]

Yes both of you

[slow musk]

also there's probably huge parts of the hive we don't see. like, from my limited steelmaking knowledge they probably had areas somehow insulated from heat? which is weird because wax and honeycomb are both very vulnerable to melting. thus i assume they might've dug out caverns above the hive to handle steelworking there?

[vague whale]

Can't we at least have good crackpot theories these days

[pine pecan]

Non Sequiter: There is a lot to be learned about the Infection of HK from the Lifeblood/Plasmium Plague in SS.

[lime nova]

I don't even know why they're so uncomfortable around childbirth, it's a pretty significant part of the game? I'm just thinking about the narrative implications of things?

[lime nova]

I... really don't see what's crackpot about anything I've said?

I'm just thinking about how TC came up with character names and what inspired the story

You're the one getting really weird because I'm talking about childbirth a lot

[vague whale]

Ooooh, okay I'm interested in hearing this theory

[craggy bison]

bench

[pine pecan]

I am on board for Hera, Queen of the Gods, being the inspiration for Herah

[wary plover]

Is lifeblood linked to the abyss

[lime nova]

If that topic makes you uncomfortable, I'm sorry, but there are more mature ways to say that than making me feel weird

You can just say you'd like me to change topics because it's sensitive for you

[slow musk]

no, but it might be at least slightly resistant to void corrosion since we see the lifeblood grove in the abyss

[craggy bison]

most of lifeblood was locked in the abyss because of the ban i believe

[pine pecan]

yes and no, in the sense that the closest thing to a Higher Being that we know of for Lifeblood is just called "The Abyss Creature" in the files

[craggy bison]

the abyss creature is so mysterious

it also appears in the godhome lifeblood room

[vague whale]

what. what okay I'm not upset with that topic I'm annoyed that you're pulling things out of a hat to make it relevant where it isn't. childbirth is just a thing that happens in life

[craggy bison]

also why does the abyss lifeblood room have so much dream essence in it

[pine pecan]

Actually the reason why I am datamining at this moment, I want to see if there is an equivelent to the abyss creature in SS

[hoary arrow]

Guys, what do you think about the Little Knight being the Shade Lord in the ending?

[lime nova]

I definitely think the lifeblood infection in the wormways is meant to hint at a higher being, Hornet even considers this in the journal

[craggy bison]

i don't think little ghost IS the shade lord, i think shade lord is when the knight unites the void.

[vague whale]

Oooooo? :intrigued:

[pine pecan]

She also says as much in Dialogue with the Crazy Lifeblood Scientist

[vague whale]

Xyolotl?

[lime nova]

Please stop being rude. I'm not "pulling things out of a hat" I'm putting a lot of thought into this. If you can't be civil and polite I'm gonna have to block you

Genuinely I have no idea why you're so mean to me

[slow musk]

imo it's a creature with a significant amount of determination, and contains void. thus it's not out of the question to consider that little ghost was absorbed by the shade lord when invoking it to godhome and managed to change its nature at least a bit

[deft zealot]

Sorry one more thing, Herra means person with power/authority in old norse so that could be tied to her status as Deepnest's queen.
-# 💤

[vague whale]

I was considering blocking you as well tbh so it's probably better if we just do that

[lime nova]

Oooo! I wonder if that's an intentional double entendre! Very clever

No idea who pissed in her coffee

Oh wait

[slow musk]

but the shade lord as the god of gods is basically the closest thing the hollowverse has to an elder evil, so i'm pretty sure the knight didn't become the shade lord, more like got absorbed by it and influenced it partially

[vague whale]

Yeah it's at least possible

[pine pecan]

ha, here is a fun discovery: in the files, Team Cherry also refer to it as Lifeblood: "animations_assets_lifeblood"

[vague whale]

we stan Lifeblood, better name

[lime nova]

I'm gonna go to bed guys, thanks to the rest of you for being nice to me

[hoary arrow]

@slow musk @craggy bison I think that the Knight became the forefront of the Abyss. Its the only being that is both Pale and Abyss, thus letting it become the entity that is the Shade Lord.

[vague whale]

It's good that we know for certain that Lifeblood and Plasmium are the same substance. Obviously we're supposed to go "HEY I KNOW THAT STUFF" but we've got plenty to confirm they're the same, for certain

[slow musk]

i'm pretty sure the shade lord already existed previously though? and sure the knight has a fuckton of heroic willpower but it usurping the god of gods is kind of ridiculous

[slow musk]

also, if the nature of a vessel was that powerful we probably would've heard about quite a few upheavals by other vessels by the time the knight climbs out of the abyss- also this is turning into off-topic actually

#hk-lore

[summer mauve]

Hey. So after the end of HK, do we know what Hornet was actually doing? Was she just hanging around the empty kingdom?

[hoary arrow]

Also, just a crackpot theory but I think that the reason why Lace was laughing and Hornet was looking flabbergasted was because SHE HAVEN'T MET THE KNIGHT, in real life anyway.

Imagine this, what if the Godmaster Ending was the True end of HK? Then Hornet only knew of the Knight in the dream realm. That is why she was so surprised that the Knight was a real thing.

That would be wild if thats true but I don't believe it too lmao

[summer mauve]

I like to imagine Hornet went travelling. Nothing in her journal seems to confirm that through sadly

[wary plover]

This is my own theory on the factions method for control:

[slow musk]

but... to get hornet's spirit into godhome and progress the storyline, the knight would've had to fight her both times??

[slow musk]

actually this is cool i like it
im pretty sure body parasite is a bit redundant you could just say parasite there

[summer mauve]

That's a hell of an alignment chart

[vague whale]

Hornet was at the very least captured in Hallownest

[summer mauve]

I see. I assume there's some dialogue confirming that at some point.

[vague whale]

So, if she went traveling to other kingdoms, which I doubt, she would've had to go there and then come back to Hallownest in order to get captured by the Citadel bugs to start the game

[hoary arrow]

Didnt Eva said that the Lifeblood transform the bug that wields it to the form the Lifeblood desire?

[glossy badger]

Yeah

[hoary arrow]

She is definitely in the Kingdom and she is helping the ones left.

[summer mauve]

I guess I don't think there's much left for her in HollowNest. The kingdom is well and truly dead. The game is mostly about letting it go rather than eternally prolonging it. I like to think Hornet took that on board and wouldn't try to rebuild it herself.

[stable venture]

Has anyone figured out how to get the ending where ||Hornet just becomes the next Grand Mother Silk||?

[summer mauve]

That's in character actually. Fair enough

[summer mauve]

I think that's the default Act 2 ending

[hoary arrow]

I don't think thats achievable. I know what you are talking about

Its a data mined video.

[terse warren]

The one where her head becomes spiky is cut content

[stable venture]

No not the one where ||she is shown in a cocoon|| the one where there is a cutscene of her ||appearance changes(seems like gilded with gold) and she enslaves new pilgrims with her silk hair like Grand Mother Silk||

[pine pecan]

Oh! Here is something cool: An unused Cinematic

[stable venture]

Possible teaser for dlc?

[pine pecan]

I checked, this doesn't play when you get captured

[terse warren]

No, it's cut

[drifting elbow]

EYO I’m AT ||ACT 3||

WTF HAPPENED THERE

[subtle plaza]

Oh cool, there was a cutscene planned for the slab

I wish this made it in ngl

[drifting elbow]

I thought the ||Void|| was finally at peace after the flower ending in ||Godmaster||

[hoary arrow]

Ah they should've jept that for the slab

[hoary arrow]

It is definitely not

[silent phoenix]

Where to find Pilby after Pilgrim's Rest?

Please i have been asking for days :(

[terse warren]

1. No

2. This is assuming that ending is the canon one

[drifting elbow]

Oh no so it’s not???

[subtle plaza]

I think the most likely ending that silksong takes place after in is prolly the radiance ending.

[hoary arrow]

Thats why I said crackpot lmao

[terse warren]

It's spoiler stuff but it might be that one

[drifting elbow]

Oh shit then

[terse warren]

There's other possibilities but also get out of this channel

It's like brimming with spoilers

[drifting elbow]

Okay

[terse warren]

Why are you here if you haven't beaten the game

You're gonna ruin it for yourself

[hoary arrow]

This the lore section, its bound to be spoilers lol

[terse warren]

Nowhere I think?

[silent phoenix]

ive heard of people meeting him in halfway home but how

[hoary arrow]

Pilby?

[terse warren]

Never heard of that

[terse warren]

Little Pilgrim from Bonebottom

He either dies during the Skull Tyrant attack or moves to Pilgrim's Rest and then somewhere else

[hoary arrow]

He can live?!

[vague whale]

I feel so bad that I didnt know how to save him

[stable venture]

If you get to act 2 without doing the Skull Tyrant quest

[hoary arrow]

Daaamn. Well I missed fighting Shakra and Garram

[stable venture]

If you do it in act 1 your basically exchanging an innocent life for 220 beads lol.

[silent phoenix]

Yeah

It's kinda sad just how many people are asking about his whereabouts, only to ge tcompletely ignored

Maybe we need a third Silksong help channel xD

or an FAQ page

[hoary arrow]

And the way they threw him to the bottom was sooo awful

[terse mural]

220 beads early you mean?

[silent phoenix]

Like I've asked about pilby 6 times and only now hav ei gotten anyone to speak to me

[stable venture]

Probably because no one else knows tbh

[cloud plover]

and i feel no shame

[silent phoenix]

one person says that they've seen people talk about seeing him in Halfway Home

[pine pecan]

I made a Google Drive of the Cinematics I have extracted so far. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1vDX42gKkoi9FfNx0JvqClf6qFz0HWECs?usp=sharing

Do you guys want me posting these here, or in another channel?

[hoary arrow]

This would be the best place

[pine pecan]

Aight cool. They don't have audio cause the audio was driven by unity monobehaviours that are synced when the game plays them

[hardy linden]

Argh, hearing that Pilby could've lived hurts

Them dropping him down the hole didn't stop me from going there and playing the needolin for him tho

[vague whale]

Yeah

If they thought I wasn't immediately going to drop everything and use all my silk to play him one last song they were WRONG

[ebon silo]

im about to fight the ant queen or something but is she like the leader of all?

[vague whale]

RIP PILBY O7

[hardy linden]

She is mother

[ebon silo]

who what gives birth to the ants

[pine pecan]

Dude, I actually sobbed after... Garmond

[hardy linden]

yeah... and playing the needolin makes it sadder. Zaza just says how 'we'll meet back home'

[tiny socket]

Some of the game is quite emotional, like Garmond, or discovering that the bench in the top left of bilewater is fake

[hardy linden]

o7

[pine pecan]

LET ME ADOPT ZAZA TEAM CHERRY DO IT COWARDS

[hardy linden]

Fuck Bilewater

[ember river]

Bilewater wouldn't be that bad of an area if those annoying assholes didn't immediately retreat before you kill them

[pine pecan]

Speaking of Bilewater, I have a hardcore sus that the Stilkin and Pinstress/Seamstress are related somehow

[hardy linden]

Honestly the worst place to be in Silksong. The best part of it is that you can leave.

(good job on Team Cherry's part)

[craggy bison]

bilewater was a cool area before i realized there were 2 benches (1 of them is secret)

[ember river]

This game has way too many ranged flying enemies that teleport away or dodge whenever you get close

[tiny socket]

Those moss guys are definitely bel*ringers

[hardy linden]

ugh

[subtle plaza]

What does bellringer mean

[craggy bison]

the ones that annoy me in particular are the green ones in putrified ducts. honestly putrified ducts is much worse than bilewater, thank god it's a small area

[ember river]

Noita tag

[ember river]

Putrified ducts has Primal Aspid+

[craggy bison]

which moss guys

[ember river]

But you can make the barnacles eat them

[tiny socket]

The ones in bilewater that jump out of the maggots and throw the darts

[hardy linden]

At least you get to see them be eaten by Barnacks

[craggy bison]

yeah that's kinda cool

[ember river]

Which is super enjoyable

[hardy linden]

Which is really fun to see

[ember river]

Also we have hl2 barnacles

[craggy bison]

oh yeah they're definetly bellringers

[subtle plaza]

Putrified ducts enemies are uber cancer

[stable venture]

According to Eva's lore, Weavers are cursed to never have children, so how was Hornet born? We know that Herrah was just a "beast" in the ranks of Deepnest and was just wed to their royalty so maybe Herrah was not a pure Weaver? She looks different to them too.

So Hornet must have been born through both Weaver and the Pale King's magic/tech, not by biological means

[tiny socket]

The vine mimics are annoying because I have the memory of a

Whatever that thing with a bad memory is

[craggy bison]

bile water vs putrified ducts
super hell vs super hell

[hardy linden]

It's hard and painful, not impossible

[craggy bison]

how do you know it's hard and painful

are you a weaver?

[subtle plaza]

Bilewater is worse because its huge as fuck while putrified ducts is only a couple rooms.

[craggy bison]

https://tenor.com/view/watching-you-observe-seeing-i-saw-you-gif-5740825

[ember river]

There's only one that is really really annoying

It looks and acts like a more annoying primal aspid

[latent fractal]

Okay why does the knight with all the failed vessels come and save us at the end

[craggy bison]

yeah but if putrified ducts was bigger it would be worse than bilewater

[ember river]

Because we are friends

[hardy linden]

@craggy bison

[craggy bison]

typo of absolute despair

[latent fractal]

Isn't he in another kingdom

[ember river]

He's in the void

[olive timber]

Bro is the void

[craggy bison]

ohh i forgot about that

[latent fractal]

Ik he is the embodiment of void

[ember river]

The ever-stretching endlessly reaching sea of nothingness

[craggy bison]

i'd imagine that void beings can travel in the void freely

[ember river]

He's a void entity in charge of the void

[stable venture]

He is the lord of the void, and you fell into the void

[hardy linden]

Mr. Worldvoid

[olive timber]

Bro seen their sister in danger and felt like being nice

[craggy bison]

John Void

[latent fractal]

John mid ladder

[neat sandal]

okay. You are right on this one
that toxic mosquito and vine monster are most evil thing in this game

[craggy bison]

this is why you don't mess with Sister of the Void

[ember river]

I wish we got a cameo of the Hollow Knight's shade

[ember river]

What vine monster

The giant chargers in putrified ducts are fun to fight and easy to avoid

[pliant meadow]

Hey maybe they weren't there bc they're still alive

[craggy bison]

yeah this is what makes me think that embrace the void is the real ending, why was there no THK shade?

[olive timber]

Cool platforming with the vine monsters tho

[ember river]

The giant void tube thingy is annoying

[wild falcon]

I'd argue that abyss spewer is the worst enemy in the game

[ember river]

It's intentionally ambiguous, there's no shade army in EtV either

[hardy linden]

Spewer is avoidable, Putrified Duct mosquito and bell throwers are not

[neat sandal]

Barnak

[ember river]

Barnaks are fun, just smash hit to free yourself before taking any damage

They also eat and kill the mosquitoes with a satisfying sound

[craggy bison]

yeah but that was in godhome (i don't know what i'm talking about)

[wild falcon]

At the end of embrace the void, we see THK waking up in the black egg. He didn't returned to abyss for some reason. Maybe he is sentinel of Hallownest now?

[craggy bison]

i wanna see uninfected hollow knight

i mean we saw a glimpse

[ember river]

Pure Vessel:

[craggy bison]

but i wanna see more

[hardy linden]

probably knew Hornet the longest too

[craggy bison]

i meant current uninfected hollow knight

the one that has feelings

[ember river]

That's still just pure vessel

[craggy bison]

b-but pure vessel doesn't have cracks on his head

[hardy linden]

Pure Vessel has two arms

[craggy bison]

and i'd imagine he has no emotions unlike thk

[ember river]

Fair, that's slightly less pure vessel

[craggy bison]

true

[latent fractal]

How to beat this

[ember river]

He does, that's why he failed

[latent fractal]

Or what is this

[craggy bison]

yeah but i thought pure vessel was just thk if he didn't become impure

[ember river]

I think he can regenerate that, it's basically void

[ember river]

I think it was just the hollow knight at his peak

[neon trout]

If the knight pre shade lord with all his abilities fought current hornet with all her abilities who would realistically win

[craggy bison]

probably uhh uhh uh uhh

[ember river]

Probably the knight because shade cloak and HK spells are busted

[wild falcon]

His focus doesn't have healing properties for some reason

[hardy linden]

Probably thinks to use it offensively first to take care of problems, before using it to heal

[ember river]

It probably still has, but it'd be suicidal to try that against a smaller and mobile opponent, it's just opening for a free hit

[spring merlin]

So why the hell is Fourth Chorus in Far Fields

[hardy linden]

he do be walking

[wild falcon]

He was probably sent to take down ants

[craggy bison]

he do be walking

[glossy badger]

Leisurely stroll

Anyone else get jumpscared by him

[ember river]

It fought the Pinstress or the Seamtress and lost, I'm not sure of its function though

[vague whale]

Yes/no

[craggy bison]

also even before shade lord the knight managed to beat up absolute radiance quite a bit

[hardy linden]

Sadly knew because of the trailer

[wild falcon]

Citadel ruined coral civilisation, ant civilization, verdania and nature

[ember river]

I'd say it was meant to be a mining or construction machine

[vague whale]

We all walked past and knew we'd have to fight it eventually, we just didn't think that fight would be SO SOON

[glossy badger]

Damn

[craggy bison]

didn't verdania fall because of their own leaders or sm

[vague whale]

no

[ember river]

The ants weren't ruined by the Citadel
And nothing really hints that's the case for the corals

[craggy bison]

okay

[glossy badger]

Yeah I didn't see that so I got fully jumpscared

[ember river]

Nah Verdania's decline 100% started with the citadel

[vague whale]

Oh lol poor you then, sorry

[ember river]

Its final destruction is weird though

[hardy linden]

also, side note, but I find it funny that the Man at Arms channel (the one that makes fictional weapons) showed off more Silksong stuff than Nintendo on the same day

[wild falcon]

Fourth chorus is the creation of citadel, looks like a combat machine to me

And coral tower is essentially cut content, so not a lot of info

[vague whale]

There's three others we can see in storage still

[craggy bison]

i still wanna know how garmond got voided

[glossy badger]

"All to bow...
All lost to fear...
Remember our strength...
Remember our rule...
Now none to resist... But us...
Alone... against the pale light..."
King khann statue thread memory for some context

[wild falcon]

Black threads got him, I guess

[ember river]

It doesn't look like a combat machine to me considering it's pretty weak at combat

[craggy bison]

i thought everyone else got voided because of the already existing silk threads that were casted on them by gms BEFORE the void took over

but garmond didn't have one

[ember river]

Ah, that seems to point more towards GMS

[ember river]

He may have gotten ensnared by a thread at some point

[craggy bison]

so he got ensnared while we were fighting grandma silk?

[wild falcon]

After she got in the void

[hardy linden]

No, we see him fighting voided bugs afterwards

[wild falcon]

Void mass is dangerous even to Hornet, and seems to be the source of void enemies

[ember river]

Nah, you can speak with him during act 3 before he gets voided

[glossy badger]

I do wish there was more coral tower lore

[craggy bison]

how did that happen? how did he get ensnared after granny silk was fighting the void trying to protect lace

[ember river]

Void threads can still ensnare

[craggy bison]

oh yeah i forgot

[ember river]

Anyways as to the Ants' decline, I assumed it had been the Haunting

[glossy badger]

I agree

[ember river]

Basing it on journal entries

[wild falcon]

Which is probably citadel thing too

[ember river]

It seems the ants were still a united colony

[wild falcon]

Something is controlling mind of most bugs

[craggy bison]

anyways fuck the void i won't forgive it for what it did to garmond

[ember river]

The citadel, the weavers and GMS herself are different things

Stop lumping them together

[wild falcon]

Citadel is ran by weavers tho

[ember river]

Technically the silk is to blame

[ember river]

No it's not
It was for a while and then they fucked off and put normal bugs in charge

[craggy bison]

silk taken over by the void

[ember river]

Sources: Harp, Ballador

[craggy bison]

the silk didn't ensnare garmond on it's own or by grandma silk

[ember river]

Yeah but the mind control thing is the silk

[craggy bison]

it was the void

[neat sandal]

so Phantom actually good guy
if you needolin the wraith
she want to chase those pilgrim away
so she don't have to kill them
that why she run out of silk
can't maintain herself

[ember river]

And the silk was still around because GMS refused to let go

[craggy bison]

the silk doesn't act on itself

i blame void

[ember river]

The silk was commanded by GMS the whole time

[wild falcon]

Void is neutral entity, it reaches out for soul and corrupts it

[ember river]

The void has no mind or will except for the void heart

[ember river]

It doesn't corrupt, it destroys and consumes

[craggy bison]

yeah and gms can't haunt someone while using up all her silk to protect lace

[ember river]

The voided enemies is an amalgamation

[craggy bison]

and has no reason to

[ember river]

The haunting isn't intentionally managing each movement, it seems noticeably different than the Infection as well

[wild falcon]

Garmond had a moment of conscience before dying

[ember river]

We had cut him loose from the threads at that point

Then he passed away

[craggy bison]

yeah hornet says something about the haunting forcing people to do their jobs forever

[ember river]

That's on an underworker entry

[craggy bison]

yeah but it was talking about the haunting in general

[wild falcon]

Underwork is the only place that charges you for benches. It is not just troll, it is lore

[craggy bison]

and also not talking about "jobs" literally i just forgot what exactly she said

[ember river]

Haunted bugs still have most of their basic behavior

[ember river]

There's that one camp in far fields

[craggy bison]

basically making them do what they were doing before getting haunted forever

[wild falcon]

Haunting is way less understandable than infection. Do we even have all needed information in game?

[craggy bison]

nope

probably not

maybe we can get more info in dlc or something

[wild falcon]

That's weird. When I played hollow knight, I understood most of its lore without videos. And I don't really know what is happening in silksong, and very little people know in ss lore

[craggy bison]

wow you're really smart if you understood most of the lore without videos

or i'm just stupid

[ember river]

A lot of the stuff that happens in the game is not fully explained, it's also more abstract than HK

[ember river]

It's not that hard if you don't skip past dialogue

[craggy bison]

i never skipped dialogue maybe it's just that my english isn't that good and i didn't understand a lot of it

because hk uses a lot of fancy words

[ember river]

That's probably it

[wild falcon]

Darkest dungeon:

[craggy bison]

and sentences that are hard for me to understand

[neat sandal]

feel like all dialog in silksong write like poet.
It make very hard to understand what it meaning
unlike dreamnail

[craggy bison]

that was the case for me with hollow knight too

i couldn't understand most of what people said because it feels like everything is written in shakespearean english

[vale jetty]

[Snail shamans lore] do we know why they vanished after red memory?

[wild falcon]

Probably sacrificed themselves

They didn't just vanished, they left shells behind

[craggy bison]

used up all their power along with the hearts ig

[wild falcon]

They were probably discussing this with each other before agreeing for memory plan

[craggy bison]

this is why i think that battle memories aren't really achievable even if it's a cool idea

if it took THAT much power to look into hornet's past to get the everbloom i don't think it's possible

[vale jetty]

Ok, what if... They disappeared because of close presence of Everbloom? That would imply that they are partially void. I know there was discussion regarding this and it's false, but what if Snail shamans in HK world did something similar with void, as citadel did with silk in whiteward? And because the fact they have a bit of void inside them from generations caused them to die when Everbloom appeared in Hornet hands

[wild falcon]

[robust wagon]

Well that thing is that the ever bloom doesn't destroy the void, it just dispels it

[vale jetty]

Maybe the presence of void inside them let's them use soul better

[craggy bison]

i don't think they would die just from the everbloom being close

how would the knight be able to carry it so close to itself and not die

[vale jetty]

Oh right

[craggy bison]

i think it needs to like directly touch it or something

[high violet]

but then hornet would disappear too since shes made of void

[craggy bison]

are we deadass rn

[high violet]

[neat crane]

Much more plausable that getting the Everbloom was pretty hard. I mean, you are kinda materializing a mere thought, a memory of the past

[craggy bison]

please tell me you're joking

[high violet]

of course im joking LMAO

[craggy bison]

ok good

[wild falcon]

Idk how people thought that hornet is a vessel, if she's clearly implied to be bug

[subtle plaza]

i think silksong wasn't real and hornet was actually in a coma dream this whole time

[terse warren]

Hollow Knight fans can't read

[ebon silo]

so its probably best to say that skarmelita? the fking ant queen is the ant queen of hunters march?

[high violet]

because the reading comprehension higher being is dead

we killed them

[ebon silo]

or they killed themselves

[high violet]

both would make sense

Grand Mother Reading Comprehension or something like that

[terse warren]

Absolute Reading Comprehension

[raw pewter]

Just want to confirm, but all Weavers (at least during the early days) are all created by Grand Mother Silk yes? And the ones that are in Hallownest could be descendants of the original Weavers?

[subtle plaza]

hornet can be a vessel if the first 2 games was actually a coma dream hornet was experiencing.

[wild falcon]

Weavers are spiders granted silk from GMS

They call her mother

[terse warren]

all weavers are ascended Pharlids by GMS

the ones in Hallownest are too

all pure weavers are made by GMS

[subtle plaza]

so does gms control all silk, is everything silk related created by gms?

[terse warren]

yes

GMS is the primal source of all silk

[high violet]

how come other Weavers dont have like a cracked shell like First Sinner? is it because First Sinner was like the first Weaver and then other weavers were like more perfected??

I do think an interesting note to add is that First Sinner is referred to as "First Weaver" internally in game files

[wild falcon]

Do we have any clues why lace and phantom petrify from hearing needolin?

[raw pewter]

I see, does it say anywhere that Herrah might be the original Weavers or just daughter of the Weavers? Because Herrah is so different than the Weavers I am a lil confused as to if she is a Weaver too

[spark schooner]

I like the theory that the snails are partially void, the drippiness of them and the fact that snails are implied to have been around the void in both games supports it (along with snail shaman bodies being used to void-ify soul abilities in HK).
From here I'd suggest that the void simply took their bodies after they died due to the power required to reach that deep into memories and take something back out. Or it could be a case of HK death animation, void bursts out of them, shell cracks and falls to the ground, their "shade" or whatever is left of them (if there is anything) then leaves or again is dragged down

[high violet]

perhaps Weavers are ascended beings of various originating bugs by GMS, and Herrah was just a different type of bug that was ascended

[subtle plaza]

i forgot the properties of void tbh

[high violet]

are the other bugs in Deepnest also referred to as Weavers? other than Herrah and the Weaverlings and the hidden weaver dude?

i cant really remember

[subtle plaza]

oh wait you said other bugs

[terse warren]

not sure. maybe first sinner was just different

[high violet]

yeah the other bugs in deepnest

[spark schooner]

Needolin seems to have an effect on anything silk based (even the void silk freaks out), that could be all it is

[subtle plaza]

i dont think so

[honest anvil]

"A bug I am, at least in part" is one of my favourite lines of hers

[subtle plaza]

first sinner sinned first so they lost a part of their shell or smth

[high violet]

if they were also weavers, you could maybe make a connection that those other bugs look so widely different because they have different origin points from Pharlids

[terse warren]

well orinigally only weavers were referred to as weavers, then herrah got referred to as one in silksong, but no one else

[terse warren]

no they looked like that from birth

[high violet]

but its all a little confusing what is consider a weaver and what isnt based on Herrah, is Herrah ethnically a weaver??? idfk

[subtle plaza]

yeah they sinned during their birth which is why they're called first sinner

[wild falcon]

First sinner has cracked egg mask 🥀

[subtle plaza]

they speedran sinning

[honest anvil]

yes, she is 100% a weaver, because hornet is 50% a weaver
she looks different but. maybe she just looks different? she's just a big girl and that's okay

[terse warren]

herrah is just a weaver that looks funky because TC fumbled

[craggy bison]

why does she look so different tho

[raw pewter]

That's what I am confused about, Herrah looks so much different than the other Weavers

[craggy bison]

and why does hornet look like hornet

[spark schooner]

Herrah looks similar to grand mother silk in some ways, it could be that she was created to be a weaver queen and spread their influence

[terse warren]

because she wasn't a weaver in game one

[craggy bison]

she doesn't look like a pale king and she doesn't look like herrah

[wild falcon]

I think someone said that herra is actually half Weaver and half bug

[fathom pollen]

I just want to ask a dumb question to clear things uo for myself: is hornet a weaver?

[honest anvil]

what? yeah she was

[terse warren]

she's not

[wild falcon]

Half Weaver, half pale being

[subtle plaza]

there were actually hints alluding to a connection between the weavers and hornet in the first game but ok

[terse warren]

she was never once stated to be a weaver in game one

[wild falcon]

Demigod basically

[honest anvil]

herrah has always been a weaver hornet being half weaver half pale has been a thing since day 1

[fathom pollen]

Thansk

[raw pewter]

Actually, what about Widow? Why did she wear a sort of cloth on her head instead of round heads like the other Weavers?

[terse warren]

yeah, they were servants of Herrah, and trained hornet

[high violet]

herrah just completely confuses the definition of a weaver lmao, i wish there was other examples of a weaver that doesnt look like a weaver

[terse warren]

it literally hasn't lol

[high violet]

Widow got her mask forcibly taken off, i even think that the cloth on her head is probably a silk cloth she made to hide her true face or something like that

[wild falcon]

I'd imagine that hornet immortality comes from wyrm, same case with knights

[subtle plaza]

maybe herrah was a different type of bug that became a higher being through GMS? Could explain why she looks different.

[terse warren]

The Weavers are also very long lived, considering we see a first generation one in HK and 2 in SS

[spark schooner]

Herrah may not have a mask either then, the fuzzy mask in the memory implied to me that hornet barely remembers what she looked like before the dreamer mask

[wild falcon]

Widow has some connection to GMS, since she knows a little more about Hornet than others

Wonder what's her purpose

[tropic arrow]

I think the "staked to service" one in the Cradle may or may not be her

but we don't know

[wild falcon]

Well, first sinner too knows about hornet being half-weaver from a distant land

[terse warren]

except we literally see her normally in game one??

the no mask thing doesn't explain the big ass horns on her head

[wild falcon]

She's just unique, we can give her that

[terse warren]

every other weaver looks the same. there's no reason for her to look different except that TC retconned stuff

[tropic arrow]

I just headcanon that the Pharlid that Herrah was uplifted from was a little borked here and there

[wild falcon]

Why weaver leader wouldn't be weaver tho

[honest anvil]

the weavers were never discussed in any depth in hollow knight but midwife is literally right there

[tropic arrow]

Tbf Herrah is never called a weaver in HK I think

[tropic arrow]

The only real straight up retcon in Silksong

[terse warren]

midwife isn't a weaver either

[tropic arrow]

First Sinner had a broken mask right after she was uplifted, so

[terse warren]

[raw pewter]

Could Weavers be used as a sort of title? And Herrah somehow became an honorary Weaver? I honestly don't know, just ignore my statement lads

[main osprey]

So stupid question is all of HK and SS set underground?

[terse warren]

it's a species

[tropic arrow]

I believe the surface in Silksong is, actually, the surface, but up to you

[terse warren]

yes except for Dirthmouth (maybe) and Surface (probably)

[honest anvil]

okay i will give you after looking at a few things that herrah was never stated to be a weaver explicitly anywhere but i do not think it was a retcon
i am pretty sure it was lore that they just never discussed, as were many things

[neat sandal]

midwife not enough leg to be weaver

[honest anvil]

oh i was talking about midwife talking about the weavers

[raw pewter]

Does anyone find the Drapemite to be pretty similar to the Pharlid or is it just me?

[spark schooner]

Looking back at Hollow Knight, Herrah is labelled as a mere beast by a fungal waste lore tablet, apparently she was of no importance

[hardy linden]

Considering how weavers had changed designs (compared to the balls we saw in Hollow Knight), Herrah could be a type of weaver

or age just does that to a weaver, idk

[honest anvil]

she's a beast of common caste in hallownest. she is, in hallownest, literally just any other bug, because the weavers don't matter to them

she married into the native spider tribe's royal caste

[spark schooner]

I don't blame team cherry for retconning stuff though, I think that if anything conflicts between games we should take silksongs as the facts and leave it at that

[main osprey]

I thought "The Beast" was like a title of her

Like the Deepnest spiders didn't submit to the pale king

[spark schooner]

"This border bounds the twisting, scratching things. Their dead sire, once of honoured caste. Their sealed mother, but the common beast."

[honest anvil]

The Beast is one of her titles but we don't really know why. for all we know she has that title because she Looks Like That

[honest anvil]

why am i getting X'd her husband is literally of honoured caste

[raw pewter]

Could it be possible that Herrah is one of the descendants of Weaver? That then would explain why she looks so different and make it so that she still is a Weaver

[main osprey]

Maybe it's about how in Pharloom these Weavers were the ruling caste, but when Herrah and her tribe left, they became "common"

[honest anvil]

she's 100% weaver. so only if weavers bred with weavers

[neat sandal]

weavers are common beast to hallownest

[honest anvil]

we know this because hornet is half-weaver, explicitly stated

[raw pewter]

Can Weavers bled with Weavers?

[main osprey]

Yeah

Why not?

[honest anvil]

we know weavers are capable of having children but it is incredibly difficult for them - eva talks about how having children is really hard for weavers

[terse warren]

because they're all women

[raw pewter]

Ohh right, completely forgot about that

My mistake

[main osprey]

Oh yeah whoops

[honest anvil]

we don't know why having children is so rare, but it is stated to be a 'curse'

[main osprey]

Maybe it's like a mule situation

[honest anvil]

"I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits." for reference

maybe it's just that the babies come out with that giant head

[raw pewter]

Ok so it can happen, just extremely rare

[main osprey]

Why wouldn't the babies be eggs

[spark schooner]

We can see inside of first sinners mask, theres quite a bit of room in there and no sign of a head

[honest anvil]

the eggs can have the mask who knows

(this is a joke)

[main osprey]

So this might be HK lore, but who are the bugs that capture the knight when we enter deepnest

Are they servants of the tribe?

[spark schooner]

They worked hard to canonise that hornet has relationship issues

[honest anvil]

i believe they are just deepnest bugs (spiders, i assume), no deeper lore that i know of

[main osprey]

Are Deepnest bugs related to weavers?

Like can weavers have children, but they can't make new weavers?

[raw pewter]

Probably not? I mean Weavers became part of the Deepnest tribe, but the Deepnest tribe are probably just normal spiders

[main osprey]

Do we think that weavers have an affinity for spiders?

Or just a coincidence?

[raw pewter]

Weavers are ascended spiders, so yes I would assume so

[honest anvil]

i mean they're arachnids so they probably have an affinity for other arachnids

[raw pewter]

Sometimes I forget how complicated the Hollow Knight lore can be, god how I miss talking about lore

[main osprey]

Is the world of hollow knight dying?

[raw pewter]

Are you talking about Hallownest? Because it is called a dead kingdom

[main osprey]

No like the whole setting of both games

[honest anvil]

also i will say while herrah doesn't have the Giant Round Weaver Head her mask does have the same design for eyes that the Weavers have, so she was almost certainly always planned to be a weaver

[main osprey]

With Mister Mushroom and the herald of the new age, are we at the end of an age?

We see the radiance and GMS basically destroying the kingdoms that were once there

At the end of HK Hallownest is still a ruined kingdom, and the same with Pharloom

[raw pewter]

I wouldn't say the world is ending, just Higher Beings meddling with Kingdoms and destroying them, but I would say some smaller groups like Shakra's village are still ok

[olive timber]

Both can rebuild

[visual glacier]

do the shamans disapear cause of the spell or the flower

[olive timber]

The spell I'd reckon

Vengeful Spirit was the soul of a Shaman soooo

[neat sandal]

she have to remove her old mask to put on new dreamer mask

[main osprey]

Yeah I guess there are isolated areas of settlement left, but I wonder if this is the end of the Golden Age of kingdoms

[honest anvil]

almost certainly the spell, it wouldn't make sense for the flower to just like. explode them. they're a good distance away, the range of it is pretty small, and snail shamans probably aren't void

if the void enemies can shoot void sawblades at me and they don't disintegrate harmlessly i am going to assume the everbloom wouldn't laserbeam down the snails

[raw pewter]

The world is vast, civilization still continues, there will always be an ambitious bug who sought bigger glory and new kingdoms will be built, be it one with Higher Beings power or none at all

[main osprey]

So the world isn't as bleak as I thought

[olive timber]

I mean an age without GMS or The Radiance's scourge is a new age

[main osprey]

Which is nice, I hope hornet can settle down in bellheart

At least enjoy her life a little

[lone sluice]

ok so
when i do music the fleas sing of osme sort of ritual
is that like important on the level of what shamans say? or just a random thing

[honest anvil]

pharloom isn't even dead they're going to rebuild post-GMS, and hornet is convinced hallownest still has a future

[olive timber]

White Lady helping out Hallownest

[main osprey]

I kinda want hornet to be a wandering ronin

Helping bugs in need

[honest anvil]

i mean if white lady lets herself loose she can repopulate the whole kingdom singlehandedly

[lone sluice]

[olive timber]

I volunteer

/j

[raw pewter]

Wouldn't she need to find a compatible mate? I don't see any live Pale Beings around Hallownest

[honest anvil]

"I still feel that urge you see. I always will. A voracious desire to spread seeds upon the land, to propogate myself, to breed."

[lone sluice]

yes i know the line

[lone sluice]

the pale king could produce hornet

[honest anvil]

don't think she needs a pale being, herrah wasn't one

[lone sluice]

whats to say wl cant do something similar

[raw pewter]

I doubt normal bugs can handle all of White Lady

If you know what I mean

[honest anvil]

not like they need to survive the process

[raw pewter]

Bow chica bow wow

[lone sluice]

this is a topic

[honest anvil]

this is hardly abnormal for how bugs work bugs are really weird

[maiden meteor]

I can

[raw pewter]

Alright then, be the saviour of Hallownest, fulfill your destiny and sacrifice your body!
-# This is getting off-topic, we need more lore stats!

[icy totem]

https://tenor.com/view/shaq-sad-shaq-dismissed-shaq-shaquille-o'neal-gif-17893105500149090374

[raw pewter]

So, Mask Makers right? Pretty interesting

[maiden meteor]

do you guys think slab flies are left to their own devices without being haunted

they seem pretty normal to me

[terse warren]

the slab flies are prisoners of the slab

[ember river]

I think they are haunted, like most of the kingdom, but they already acted like that

[ember river]

They are the guards

[terse warren]

i don't think GMS would touch them with a planet wide pole

[raw pewter]

Their entire existence is already prisoner, so their fates are just as worse as the haunted

[maiden meteor]

they’re both

[terse warren]

Old Penitent dialogue says they're both

[raw pewter]

The guards are also prisoners

[maiden meteor]

their caste was sentenced to being prison guards for sin long forgotten

[terse warren]

their ancestors committed a sin so heinous they're all condemned for it

[maiden meteor]

Seeing how they treat Hornet’s clothes I can see why

[raw pewter]

That sin is probably stealing and wearing GMS clothes
-# See them wearing Hornet's cloak

[olive timber]

"Sin so heinous" (they breathed)

[maiden meteor]

it’s extremely funny that creep fly was the only thing to trigger Hornet’s motif

imagine if after you slap Kratt her motif kicked in too

Hornet has it out for creeps

(this is a subtle message from TC to Hollow Knight fanbase)

[autumn grail]

after the lifeblood quest and act 3 in general, i feel like lifeblood and the infection have a bunch of similarities. both present in similar ways, the pale king wished to get rid of both, and they are capable of corrupting and even reanimating bugs. really makes me feel like lifeblood is also the result of some repressed higher being

[ember river]

I missed that scene by being too god at the game and killing wardenflies I came across

[ember river]

It's likely though I'd personally prefer if it was just a biological occurence

But its presence in Godhome and Joni being referred to as a Heretix makes me think a HB may be behind it

Maybe it's not repressed though

[autumn grail]

I'm still trying to figure out if lifeblood has anything to do with void. the lifeblood beast being locked away in the abyss... was that because the pale king wanted it as far away from the kingdom proper, or because it's somehow tied to void?

[ember river]

I categorically oppose every theory that ties something that isn't void to the void

It would make it feel much less special of a force

I think the creature was an ancient one messing around with lifeblood even back then

Hence the proximity to the abyss

[autumn grail]

same, I don't like the idea of it being connected to any higher being. I think the shade lord is just a manifestation of the void, not some higher being tied to the void

[honest anvil]

yeah no lifeblood is tied to a higher being in Some Way. the lifeblood beast is monstrous

[autumn grail]

quite possible, especially since the door seems to have a similar design to that of the ancient ones architecture rather than something the PK would have built

[ember river]

It is a higher being but it's different to the rest in nature and form

[terse warren]

imo lifeblood just being infection 3 makes it kinda lame

[ember river]

I'd like it if it was the cancerous remnants of some higher being of some sort

[autumn grail]

I find it interesting that the void is canonically capable of swallowing up any higher being, and that the void being an old enemy of the radiance isn't relevant to it's ability to consume it

[ember river]

Like some lovecraftian miasma

[terse warren]

i just wish for it to be its own thing, not just another infection

[autumn grail]

I'd hope there's more to it for sure

[terse warren]

i preferred the first game's benevolent lifeblood much more

[robust wagon]

The radiance having beef with a literal force of nature is so funny to me

[ember river]

I think the "old enemy" is the same reason why the Pale King mentions in the workshop "VOID, yours is the power opposed"

Void is, after all, the end of everything

[humble iron]

In the first game it was not benevolent, why do you think it was a taboo

[ember river]

It is the end of bugs and gods alike

[maiden meteor]

I think Lifeblood core room is more of a rite of passage

[terse warren]

it was taboo but everyone used it

it surely wasn't the abomination-making virus we see in Silksong

[maiden meteor]

you have to prove yourself worthy to meet with abyss creature

[ember river]

It was not benevolent, the problem is it wasn't really explained why it was like that

[humble iron]

Everyone??? Other than joni who did??? Huh

[autumn grail]

maybe it has something to do with the void coming up in Act 3. I can't remember if wormways had any enemies infected with void, but if it didn't maybe the lifeblood we see is some horrific amalgamation of void and lifeblood

[honest anvil]

not everyone used it it was in fact very rarely used or found
also everybody who did use it knew it was taboo. it was like taking an illegal drug

[maiden meteor]

Salubra had lifeblood charm but she had loads of random shit

[ember river]

Few people did, also the alchemists just abused it and started injecting it everywhere. It shouldn't naturally cause such changes

[terse warren]

nope, hornet mentions the same thing happening to Deepnest, so this is just the natural cycle of lifeblood

[autumn grail]

damn that kinda sucks

[honest anvil]

it's the natural cycle of lifeblood when allowed to fester but it was accelerated by the alchemists

[humble iron]

Void and lifeblood were confirmed to be connected somehow with the lifeblood room in the first game's abyss

[ember river]

I hate these theories

[autumn grail]

I hope there's more to it, because lifeblood clearly wasn't insane evil nightmare fuel in base game

[ember river]

Like, abhor them to the extreme

[terse warren]

lifeblood has been around hallownest enough for the kingdom to fall, i think it's been enough time for it to take over stuff

[humble iron]

Why is that

[honest anvil]

but yeah no lifeblood was implied to be something akin to a drug even in the base game. we've had it expanded into more dangerous with silksong but it was a dangerous addictive substance from the beginning

[ember river]

Void being related to lifeblood, or anything else for that matter destroys much of the mystique surrounding it

[autumn grail]

maybe it's a natural force, neither good nor evil. simply dependent on how it's used/abused

[ember river]

That's what I would like to be, but its appearance on godhome kinda hints to a higher being

[honest anvil]

lifeblood is fine in moderation you just can't let it get too much of a hold on everybody. it's like a weed

[craggy bison]

wait so who freed hornet at the start of the game

[ebon silo]

What do you guys think of winning the radiance or the GM

[terse warren]

weed doesn't turn you into an amalgamation monster

[maiden meteor]

probably depends on battlefield

[humble iron]

I mean yeah but the lifeblood entity is found in the abyss and the wormways get infected by lifeblood once void arrives. Pretty likely that they're connected

[maiden meteor]

and if we take both in their prime

[honest anvil]

.... like a weed, like in a garden. not like weed THC

[autumn grail]

maybe the lifeblood creature is a higher being but not like PK, Radiance or GMS. all of those clearly have a mind, motives and agenda. perhaps the lifeblood beast is exactly that- a particularly powerful beast

[humble iron]

Considering people like Joni were executed for being heretics it was definitely more than a drug

[ebon silo]

Let's say the pantheon area for the absolute radiance so basically in the advantage of the radiance but let's assume the GM can just summon boulders too

[terse warren]

she wasn't executed

that's not written anywhere

[honest anvil]

i don't recall any lifeblood-related executions

[humble iron]

It would have was it not for the infection, we see infected lifeseeds all over

[autumn grail]

not sure, it's not clear how powerful GMS was in her prime at all

[ebon silo]

Considering she made the weavers and weavers being weavers yeah might as well wait for pantheon

[terse warren]

and yet the haunting or the void aren't stopping it? doesn't really seem consistent

[teal finch]

general consensus is that lace did it

[humble iron]

Generally that's how it ends with heretics. And even if not that doesn't change the fact that you wouldn't give the heretic title to someone just doing drugs

[ember river]

The lifeblood entity is found in the abyss, with the corpses and architecture of the ancient civilization. It could be easily atributed to an ancient bug using lifeblood even back then.

As for the wormways, that's a trigger to show time has passed, infected wormways are intended to be an act 3 area just like the voltvyrm.
It's more of a way to lock infinite plasmium to act 3 than anything

[craggy bison]

but no actual confirmation right?

[terse warren]

ok so it's a headcanon that she got executed is what you're saying

[teal finch]

eh its implied enough that itd be weird if it isnt lace imo

[ebon silo]

The real question is when are we fighting the black wyrm

[terse warren]

no confirmation but i think it's a 50/50 that either lace did it or hornet just got lucky

[humble iron]

It's dead already tho

[maiden meteor]

Joni has whole tomb which would be unlikely for executed

[honest anvil]

okay but you definitely would give the heretic title to somebody using drugs that is a thing that happens irl

[ember river]

She was referred to as a kind heretic, and there is literally zero record of executions on Hallownest outside of Xero

[craggy bison]

nah there is no way a random butterfly just flew by and removed the seal

[terse warren]

removing the seal is probably a passive thing they do ngl

[ember river]

Those are souls

[novel estuary]

What happen to the second sentinel in act 3?

[craggy bison]

yeah but where tf did it even come from

[terse warren]

...it's a butterfly? it moves around

[craggy bison]

pretty sure it continues to fight people

[humble iron]

Yeah but these butterflies don't hang out naturally in that area

[terse warren]

she's still around and kicking

[craggy bison]

why are there such powerful butterflies and nobody talks about them

[ember river]

It's stated in that one choral commandment that they are pretty much souls

The light that guides pilgrims refers to them

[ebon silo]

bring back the dream nail

[autumn grail]

I only unlocked him in 3. he's the same lol

[terse warren]

damn good question

[ebon silo]

actually what do we need the dream nail for we got the needolin its basically the damn dream nail

[autumn grail]

or they ig

[ember river]

It

It's a machine

[craggy bison]

needolin doesn't let you enter a dream world only someone's memories

[ebon silo]

we finna need the dung defenders mind

[craggy bison]

real tho

[ebon silo]

nah nvm he mightve imagined some freak scenarios with his lover

[craggy bison]

or any other great knight

[ebon silo]

wait we could still find the false knight

its implied hes missing soooo

[maiden meteor]

Ogrim doesn’t know what sex is im afraid

[ebon silo]

the thing is the embodiment of nature

[humble iron]

I find it funny that nobodies like hu get warrior dream fights but not badasses like the dead knights

[gusty vapor]

The dream fights were backers iirc

[ebon silo]

they were

[maiden meteor]

Pale Wyrm dream fight when

[ebon silo]

he would just cry with his regrets theres no fighting in that

[gusty vapor]

Funny thing is they werent intended to be unaware they were dead, its just most backers wrote their dialogue assuming they were alive

[humble iron]

He would spam spells like an asshole

[ebon silo]

what a more plausible scenario is maybe somewhere in the upcoming DLCs we get to find the missing false knight use needolin find his memory and deadass fight the black wyrm with the 5 great knights

[teal finch]

have we settled on why bell beast has a silk heart

[ebon silo]

yeah gameplay he has one

[humble iron]

Silk hearts make no sense lorewise that's why imo

[teal finch]

holy based

[autumn grail]

I'll be honest I don't think there's a cohesive lore reason

[teal finch]

i mianly ask cause the other two at least make sense

[honest anvil]

my guess is that silk hearts are more supposed to be hornet recovering her own power rather than being something given up by others
'regained the ability to regenerate silk' or whatever

[ebon silo]

the description is "the bellbeast has a silk heart because it has one and because i said so by team cherry"

[autumn grail]

this

[ember river]

It killed a weaver and ate her heart

[humble iron]

Yeah

[ebon silo]

i dont think weavers go down easily

[honest anvil]

the other two are defeating large and powerful sources of silk, so that's a good justification for hornet to power up from the fights, and bell beast might just be an early enough fight that it's hornet getting her feat Back Under Her, so to speak

[autumn grail]

I support bell beast wrongs

[teal finch]

thats a good interpretation but dont we literally enter like a weaver/gms memory whenever we pick them up

[ember river]

You'd also think a pale being would be more powerful than GMS and here we are

[honest anvil]

we do but hornet might just be. becoming more connected to the land's silk, because she's stronger? that sounds like a reasonable enough bullshit answer

[teal finch]

fair

[humble iron]

GMS is insanely powerful, it just happens that having silk means you can usurp her. She would not go down that easily otherwise

[ebon silo]

we need a dlc that expands that weaver queen crest i deadass want that

[craggy bison]

is this talking about first sinner i'm stupid

[honest anvil]

eva

[craggy bison]

ohh right yeah

[humble iron]

Eva yeah

[craggy bison]

forgor

[ember river]

It's more the fact that she can't be naturally killed I'd say

[ebon silo]

Eva has to be the baddiest and helpful npc ive ever had

[ember river]

During the fight it isn't that strong

[craggy bison]

baddiest??

[honest anvil]

GMS can be killed she's just really strong defensively
girl can generate matter as a defensive shield. it devours her soul to do it ad infinitum but she can do it

[humble iron]

It's also important to consider that she just woke up from a centuries long nap

[teal finch]

eepy

[craggy bison]

who left that arcane egg there i wonder

[ember river]

All higher beings deaths are related to void in one way or another

[humble iron]

Yup

[autumn grail]

she withstood the void. clearly she's incredibly strong in some way

[ebon silo]

Yeah as in bad ass in helping us get silk for free

What did you think i said

[craggy bison]

how is gms getting slimed out by hornet in weaver queen ending related to void

[ember river]

Well it makes sense that the void takes longer to destroy higher beings than normal bugs

[craggy bison]

uh

[ember river]

She isn't killed, just absorbed

[ebon silo]

You freaky

[ember river]

Bound to hornet

[craggy bison]

that makes cents

[humble iron]

Unn could withstand the void by just dreaming about moss to shield herself fr fr (she's totally dying in less than 5 seconds)

[ember river]

There is an explicit difference

[ebon silo]

No literally hornet just absorbs GMs silk as seen in her crest upgrading too many times

[craggy bison]

i wonder what happened to the wyrms (i know EVERYONE wonders what happened to them)

[autumn grail]

radiance was basically instantly absorbed. idk it's weird that GMS feels weak but withstood the void better than radiance

[ember river]

She absorbs GMS into the crest

[ember river]

According to bardoon they went extinct

[ember river]

Radiance was dragged down and nobody knows what happened afterwards

[humble iron]

GMS is like 99% silk anyway

[craggy bison]

yeah radiance got consumed by the void quickly while gms fought back

[heavy falcon]

Are bells considered a sign of peace and protection? Some benches have those giant bells, towns are marked by those giant bells, and some enemies even use bells to protect themselves. Am I right from this observation?

[ember river]

And if you mean Void Given Focus that's another wholly different story

[ebon silo]

They were many but later stop being wyrms to become kings and queens y'know like what the pale king did and made civilizations exist as far as I remember but as more wyrms became kings and queens so did they're species started to go extinct but I forgot how exactly did they go extinct this is just speculations

[humble iron]

Also the bell tool that protects you. Good observation

[ember river]

Void Given Focus outright destroys the Radiance because it is strong enough with the Godseekers' atunement

[ebon silo]

Bells are infact just a manipulation made from the GM

Keep in line by belling the bell

Or something

[ember river]

Pretty sure they came from the citadel bugs than GMS

[craggy bison]

i'm starting to think that silksong hornet might be stronger than the knight (not shade lord form)

[heavy falcon]

Yeah magma bell and warding bell, they must have a tradition or belief it gives protection. The guy in songclave kinda alludes the fact that by making the bell ring, it attracts the pilgrims since it means sanctuary or something.

[humble iron]

Since bells are related to songs I think it is more of a citadel thing than GMS

[honest anvil]

the void is incredibly powerful and consumes things mindlessly
focusing it makes it monstrously powerful, which is what the shade lord does. presumably however they aren't constantly controlling the entirety of the void in its totality with omniscience

[ebon silo]

The dude fought radiance

[craggy bison]

and hornet fought grandma silk who could resist the void for a long time

[ebon silo]

And the dude beat hornet twice

[craggy bison]

and is also a higher being

[craggy bison]

yeah i said silksong hornet

[slow musk]

i would argue that hornet wasn't fighting to kill there but the point still stands

[ember river]

Pretty much yeah

[honest anvil]

oh no she definitely was she explicitly said that

[humble iron]

Silksong hornet is weaker though

[ember river]

I don't think the Radiance immediately died in DNM though

[heavy falcon]

The guy in bellhart probably is so optimistic since he believes the fuckton of bells will protect them from anything.

[craggy bison]

not after she regains her powers

and not only does she regain her powers she also gains new ones

[humble iron]

Pretty sure she does. She doesn't have a power made specifically for protection, she's all aggro

[ember river]

Counterpoint
Shade cloak

[ebon silo]

But it would be a stalemate tbh the knight is well experienced and beaten alot of things and to consider the void is on his side

[ebon silo]

Yeah the iframe beats everything

[honest anvil]

radiance just has a different powerset than GMS, we can't establish their power just by what happens when they go into the void

[humble iron]

Hornet with prep time destroys the knight

[ember river]

I feel like that detracts from the powertrip that is EtV but it really makes no difference

[heavy falcon]

I wonder what else it's a sign of? I'm not sure how it's connected to bellways, maybe protection means safe travels?

[ebon silo]

Hornet is not batman bri

[craggy bison]

counterpoint cross stitch

[slow musk]

imo the knight would be weaker than hornet if not for its heroic willpower. most of the discarded vessels probably aren't that strong, but the knight can focus soul thanks to it having a will

[ebon silo]

cross stitch only works if your getting attacked I think

Parry shouldn't work when your deadass dodging

[craggy bison]

yeah

[humble iron]

Void spells would also deplete hornet's silk if she doesn't have an everbloom

[craggy bison]

my point is

they both have i frames

[ebon silo]

But you lose silk the knight doenst lose anything

[ember river]

Radiance immediately dying or dying a while after in agonizing pain doesn't matter that much

[slow musk]

hornet's kit has no void spells in it because she isn't void
even with the everbloom i assume that the knight can apply void to its 3 spells because it itself contains void, and hornet couldn't do that

[pliant meadow]

Not if you have everbloom

[craggy bison]

and shade cloak ain't gonna do shit when you can't attack

[ember river]

Amso the knight can just equip shaman stone and spam spirit nukes

[slow musk]

oh you mean the knight's void spells? yeah true

[honest anvil]

assuming we're not going voidmode hornet is on a very similar tier to the knight and they're probably fairly evenly matched

[ebon silo]

No when hornet uses cross stitch

[humble iron]

I know that we're talking about hornet vs knight.

[craggy bison]

oh yeah what happens if you dash through someone who is holding an everbloom

[craggy bison]

with shade dash

[pliant meadow]

TK doesn't have a parry like that tho

[ebon silo]

Probably nothing

[pliant meadow]

Oooooh

[ember river]

To be fair, one of the void spells (or 2 I don't remember) come from snail shamans who have nothing to do with void

[heavy falcon]

What is she made of then? Is your death cocoon not canon?

[ember river]

Well they have to do with void but they aren't void

[craggy bison]

i was about to say

[ember river]

Deaths aren't canon, no, also it's spiders

[slow musk]

that's... silk. it's different. the coccoon is a gameplay mechanic

[humble iron]

They don't behave like void particles

They just fall

[honest anvil]

we don't know what's inside the death cocoon. it looks voidy but we don't know that it IS void. hornet's body is the same colour she might just look like that

[slow musk]

i assume that without the knight's void the spells would just be stronger versions, the knight having a mind and a will can refine them into using void

[heavy falcon]

Fair, maybe it's just dead bug parts. So definitively, she's half pale half Weaver?

[keen axle]

Could the lifeblood beast possibly make an appearance in future dlcs

[humble iron]

She is

[ember river]

She's half wyrm half weaver

[honest anvil]

she is explicitly 50% wyrm 50% weaver this is stated multiple times including by hornet

[ember river]

I don't know if all wyrms are pale beings

[honest anvil]

entirely possible!

[heavy falcon]

Right, the mystery of the wyrms

[slow musk]

we haven't heard of any other wyrms so far, except for maybe bardoon and im not sure if hes a wyrm

[honest anvil]

bardoon is not a wyrm, he says as much. wyrms are way bigger than him

[ember river]

He explicitly says he's not

[heavy falcon]

What does it mean to be a pale being? Divine connection?

[ember river]

Also a "battle of the blackwyrm" is mentioned but that's dubious

[humble iron]

The real mystery is why bardoon knows of multiple wyrms and how their anatomy works

[slow musk]

ahh oops sorry im stoopid

[honest anvil]

fantastic question

[ember river]

Having a fuckton of soul power

[craggy bison]

because big dong

[humble iron]

Soul based divinities yeah

[autumn grail]

this is a good question tbh

[maiden meteor]

love Trobbio, little theatre kid butterfly

[craggy bison]

big dong gives bardoon divine intellect

[autumn grail]

its clear the wyrms are incredibly powerful, but pale beings? i dont know

[humble iron]

Black wyrm is definitely not pale lol

[slow musk]

imo pale beings are 'pale' because they can or could influence an entire kingdom
the radiance was a pale being then was usurped by the pale king

[ebon silo]

DLC coming it's gonna be

Find missing false knight go inside the memory and we are deadass fighting the black wyrm with the 5 knights

[autumn grail]

but what even is a pale being? higher being =/= pale being

[heavy falcon]

So what's with pale ore or oil? From what I understand pale oil is a secretion from a slyphean being. Pale ore I forgot the lore about that.

[craggy bison]

ik this is prolly a joke but realistically why would we even do that

[humble iron]

The radiance is not a pale being imo, orange essence while white lady and pk have white essences

[honest anvil]

"Don't mistake. I am not a wyrm... Ohrm... Too small, I am. Too many limbs. No foresight like those old things."
foresight seems like a pretty powerful thing

[slow musk]

there are tiers
god of gods - shade lord
pale beings - white lady, pale king, grand mother silk
greater deities - nightmare's heart, radiance, gods of thunder and rain?, unn?
local deities - nyleth? idk

[ebon silo]

It is implied the false knight is missing maybe knew the kingdom was doom and fled as a coward

[heavy falcon]

Oooo, the king foresaw the fate of his kingdom?

[maiden meteor]

Radiance seems brighter than pale beings

[edgy barn]

Pale Ore has no lore apart from being cold.

[tropic arrow]

In the words of Mossbag

"Seeing as the race is extinct, this foresight must have been pretty shit"

[maiden meteor]

specifically described as “blinding light”

[slow musk]

it's entirely possible her essence used to be pale and then grew tainted as she focused it towards the malevolent purpose of spreading the infection

[craggy bison]

pretty sure that team cherry said they will expand on it later tho

[maiden meteor]

Or they just saw their end and couldn’t do shit

[robust wagon]

Like a higher being but stronger in some way

[tropic arrow]

That seems like shitty foresight to me

[honest anvil]

"Pale Wyrm...What good to foresee a demise unavoidable?"

[heavy falcon]

Avoiding something only tends to attract that something, so I guess that checks out

[slow musk]

headcanon: pale ore comes from the shed scales of wyrms

[maiden meteor]

Pale King probably saw his end too but tried to avoid it at all costs

[humble iron]

She has nothing to do with soul either and all other pale beings are in the physical realm

[heavy falcon]

No cost too great, you say?

[autumn grail]

i definitely feel that there's some interesting stuff going on with the "magic" systems in the world of HK
soul is from the union of the Pale King and White Lady
silk is from GMS
does every higher being have some "essence" or magic system? if you've read any of brandon sandersons books it kind of reminds me of how each world has different magic systems because of the shards tied to them

[ebon silo]

False to an extent I think

[robust wagon]

Woah hold on no soul animates all living things

[tropic arrow]

I mean, people other than Weavers can use silk. They seemingly taught others how to do so

[slow musk]

did it say smth about pale beings manipulating soul orrrr
we dont know shit about the radiance before the pale king usurped her

[maiden meteor]

soul existed before PK tho

[autumn grail]

it also makes hallownest stand out more, here is a land with not just 1 higher being but 3. kind of crazy

[honest anvil]

i'd guess it's the inverse if anything and that any higher being has to gain its height through the exploitation of something powerful. everything can have soul and the pale king just happens to have mastery of it

[maiden meteor]

ancient civ had soul totems

[autumn grail]

oh right shit but we dont see it in Silksong, right?

[heavy falcon]

Ancient civ at it again

[robust wagon]

4 actually, Unn

[slow musk]

i like this theory lowk

[autumn grail]

oh right Unn as well

[honest anvil]

hornet's soul meter is silk, her silk is soul and silk intermixed

[ember river]

Imagine if you foresaw that you were going to die and you couldn't change anything

[robust wagon]

It's mentioned by seamstress

[autumn grail]

interesting

[humble iron]

I am not saying it's impossible but seeing the common denominators in the pale beings we know, it's highly unlikely that radiance is one

[ember river]

Like the words of that ancient shroom

[heavy falcon]

Is silk, soul manifest in strings?

[honest anvil]

radiance is a higher being not a pale being

[edgy barn]

Well, Silksong reveals ancient masks are made from pale ore so I guess that's something.

[humble iron]

Her silk is made of soul

[autumn grail]

maybe pale beings have a higher control over soul then?

[teal finch]

yes

[craggy bison]

wait where

[slow musk]

and thats why im saying that she used to be one, not that she still is

[tropic arrow]

Silk is soul in a different form, that is stated

[maiden meteor]

Again, Radiance is specifically referenced to as “blinding” or “bright” which doesn’t really stand with Pale

[robust wagon]

In the description after you get all of them