sk-lore

[summer mauve]

For real though, buzzsaws? Why so many buzzsaws?

[karmic tartan]

BUZZSHAWS

[summer mauve]

What was he doing in that palace?

[karmic tartan]

If I remember correctly 241

[summer mauve]

That's too many buzzsaws. Even for a king

You need like 2 at most. One to saw with and one spare. Maybe more if you need different sizes

[karmic tartan]

Nah that's just how Buckingham Palace looks

[molten python]

Also the tablets in the tutorial explaining soul and stuff.

[lethal burrow]

They produce light, clumped together they produce electric, seer turns into one

[scenic stirrup]

Does anybody know if u could have both shakra and garmond on that boss on high halls

[summer mauve]

Queen Elizabeth didn't die of old age. She just finally missed a pogo after decades of old age finally caught up to her

[scenic stirrup]

I had garmond on mine but i read u can get shakra instead

[karmic tartan]

Top 100 messages in this server

[molten python]

How did the Lumafly break Hornet's seal in the opening cutscene? How do they know the way through the Mist?

[silent jetty]

They are not void, but like I can't prove it

[summer mauve]

Hey, cardio helps you live longer. She clearly put the work in

[lethal burrow]

that's not a luma fly

[molten python]

They are definitely connected to the void though.

[summer mauve]

That's certain now.

[molten python]

What was it? Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

[digital hemlock]

Did the snail shamans die from casting the spell or did they die after from the everbloom being extracted

[lethal burrow]

not a lumafly

Who knows what it actually is though

[digital hemlock]

The gleam flies from pharloom

[molten python]

Spell I think.

[summer mauve]

Is their "god" the void itself? Or an entity within the void like the Lord of Shades? If the latter, does that mean Lord of Shades precedes Hollow Knight? Is it a title rather than an entity in itself?

[karmic tartan]

Me

[lethal burrow]

50/50

[karmic tartan]

In whiteward there's a room where you can needolin the flies to figure out they're the leftover soul or ghost of old pharloom citizens

[digital hemlock]

No I think it’s only a thing when the knight united the void, making all of the lil vessels become together as an entity with a mind

[lethal burrow]

lemm says they don't worship any God or lord, but the darkness itself.

It seems like the Lord is a new entity that manifested because of Godseeker voidheart shenanigans

wait

[karmic tartan]

I think the shade lord predates the vessels

[summer mauve]

Ah. I think I misinterpreted some dialogue then

[digital hemlock]

Also the flies come out whenever a cogwork thing dies

[lethal burrow]

i'm misinterpreted for some reason I thought we were talking about ancient civilization we are talking about snail shaman

[karmic tartan]

Because the shade lord is less of a culmination of vessels and more of a culmination of shades

[molten python]

I think the Lord of Shades is the one who unites the void under their will.

[summer mauve]

The void itself is far older than HallowNest. Unclear what exactly it is, if it's conscious, etc. It's either alive, or is home to a lot of living things

The word "living" might not mean the same thing in this context as it does for the bugs

[silent jetty]

is void like everywhere when you reach a certain elevation or only below large civilizations?

[molten python]

Aren't the shades made of void?

[digital hemlock]

But at least before the knight we knew that they don’t have one single mind

[karmic tartan]

No question the void is way older im questioning the shade lord

[silent jetty]

somewhere within is the collector which is a funny thought for me

[summer mauve]

It's definitely under two of them.
In Hornet's memory, The White Lady implies that the void is in some way connected to "our family" (perhaps referring to pale beings / higher beings). Both HallowNest and Pharloom have a higher being in control

[karmic tartan]

Was it always there? Just sleeping?

[karmic tartan]

Imagine you're in a boss fight with the shade lord and they just drops the collector out of their hand like those bosses who spawn enemies

[summer mauve]

I imagine the Collector objecting to saving Hornet and Lace as they would have been really nice additions to the collection

[karmic tartan]

Is every white higher being a pale being

So far every white higher being we've seen has been a pale being or suspected to be one

[summer mauve]

Would certainly contrast with the darkness of the void

[silent jetty]

probably a trait all pale beings share

[stark rover]

do we know what the wraiths are in The Mist cuz I have a theory

[karmic tartan]

Share thy theory

[summer mauve]

This is the theory channel

[karmic tartan]

Even if we do know I'm up for hearing more theories

[molten python]

Radiance isn't a pale being.

[karmic tartan]

Another reason radiance is a pale being

[stark rover]

they could be prototypes of Phantom

[karmic tartan]

THEY CALL THE KNIGHT WHO IS MADE OF VOID ANCIENT ENEMY

[lethal burrow]

I think it's connected to their family because of all the shit the pail king did like it's connected in a certain sense, but not a metaphysical one

[karmic tartan]

Might be interesting

Damn I lowk gtg

[summer mauve]

Good point

[stark rover]

DO THESE NOT LOOK SIMILAR

[summer mauve]

Then being silk beings would be interesting

[molten python]

Because she is a being of light maybe.

[stark rover]

the Wraiths, like Phantom, are silk beings

[karmic tartan]

Cya chat remember 3 things

1. I hope all of y'all have a wonderful day/night
2. GLORY TO HALLOWNEST #LASTANDETERNALKINGDOM
3. Make sure to tell all your friends to make October Maskmaker Appreciation month!

[stark rover]

Phantom and Wraith are synonyms (for a ghost)

[molten python]

Phantom is kinda prototype too.

She was discarded.

[wintry stag]

anybody know more connections betwen lace and phantom?

[molten python]

They're children of GMS made with silk.

[stark rover]

that would mean that Phantom has far greater control over silk than she demonstrates in her fight

[summer mauve]

I wonder what Hornet did after the end of HK. The kingdom of HallowNest is long dead. Maybe she left and decided to travel. Or maybe she returned to the distant village

[wintry stag]

are they made out of void too? phantom looks void af idk

[narrow glacier]

crazy, you can't get jailed by the flys while infected/cursed

[silent jetty]

i believe they're illusions too as how they all cease to exist when you dispel the mist

[molten python]

No, no void.

[molten python]

Black doesn't mean void. Look at Shakra's body for example.

[wintry stag]

nah i know but phantom holds her mask and it looks broken idk thought there might be some connections there

like shes breaking down in a sense

[silent jetty]

she's breaking down from age

shes unc

[wintry stag]

https://tenor.com/view/tuff-sick-wow-wowsers-minecraft-gif-10059021701103936359

[silent jetty]

its literally 3 citations dawg, nowhere near 47

[stark rover]

following this, perhaps she held back while also seeking to challenge Hornet similar to how Hornet herself challenges the Knight in HK? recognising her as a Weaver and therefore capable of defeating or usurping GMS, who I would assume she doesn't like considering that she was "discarded"

[wintry stag]

weird thought i had but is phantoms mask lace's old mask? or smthn like that?

it looks broken and doesnt looks like its an exact match for her. also she needs to hold her mask on her face to make it even fit

[visual glacier]

just realized that grandmother silk is like twice the size of the radiance

[molten python]

Isn't that just because she's breaking?

[molten python]

A needle threader vs a moth.

[silent jetty]

yall think granny silk was more of a caterpiller before envolping herself into the ball? like a metamorphosis

[wintry stag]

idk but this scene made me kinda think lace did some sort of a sacrifice for phantom and maybe it was a part of her? perhaps the mask.

[silent jetty]

that would make her a silk moth which funnily is what the radiance looks the most like

[visual glacier]

tbh i think i perfer normal ending in hk to normal ss ending

[wintry stag]

honestly same

[visual glacier]

it seems simple but when you look into it becomes really deep

[gusty vapor]

I actually dunno what normal ss ending was meant to be

We become grandma silk?

[wintry stag]

something like that?

i mean we bind her power to become the next queen in a sense

[visual glacier]

basically hornet binded gms's silk and became the new gms ig similar to the first game but different in a few ways

[lucid pasture]

i said this but people here disliked my take ong
that said i think its not about she wanting hornet to actually defeat silk, i interpret it as Lace hoping Hornet does SOMETHING
what this something means can be many things lol she kinda just wants change. deep within

[stark rover]

the name of the achievement for the default ending gives us an idea
"Weaver Queen"... I guess Hornet takes over as the new ruler of Pharloom

[gusty vapor]

I wonder why Lace is so depressed

[stark rover]

her mom sucks

[visual glacier]

hornet also sprouts 2 pairs of arms which is interesting

[gusty vapor]

Pretty sure hornet actually has those

[visual glacier]

why doesnt she use them

[gusty vapor]

If you use the scuttle ability

[visual glacier]

nope look closer

[gusty vapor]

She def has more than 4 limbs

[visual glacier]

theres only 4 in the sprite

[gusty vapor]

Are there?

[visual glacier]

check

[stark rover]

she's only using 4 limbs in the scuttle animation

[gusty vapor]

Also I hate that they removed the float buffer

Sorry wrong channel

[stark rover]

WAIT
playing as the Knight against Weaver Queen Hornet 😭

[visual glacier]

knight mogs hornet

[stark rover]

imma be honest I think it's a fair fight unless Knight uses void shenanigans like against Radiance

[visual glacier]

just use 6 shaman stone ab

yss shreiks

ig its technically void shenangians but they dont lose their shell

[cerulean summit]

would pharloom beat hallownest in a war type scenario?

[gusty vapor]

Pharloom is still pre apocalyptic so yeah

[cerulean summit]

if we took like hallownest pre-radiance though

[gusty vapor]

I mean hallownest would prolly win

But realistically everyone would lose with the radiance cheating

[normal plank]

what is the discussion here?

[elder nymph]

Woot 100%, 4/8 momentos and the plasmid can wait. Its just a materiium entry anyway

[normal plank]

hallownest vs pharloom?

[cerulean summit]

probably lol

[normal plank]

like if all bugs were to go to war?

[elder nymph]

Its foolish to think all of Hallownest and Pharloom are united

[long wyvern]

wtf

[elder nymph]

Deepnest be hating

[lucid pasture]

i think coral ppl were prob stronger than anything in pharloom

[elder nymph]

Ants also say YOU NOT ANT DIE

[lucid pasture]

in hallownest**

[normal plank]

pharloom also has numbers advantage

[cerulean summit]

technology as well

[normal plank]

id assume we are not taking into account higher beings

[cerulean summit]

yea prolly

did pale king have much actual power by the end of his life?

or was he just like... a guy

[normal plank]

ughh i rmb god seeker saying something about

his power is long gone but still lingers

but even then, the attuned white lady in the background of one of the scenes implied she is very OP

[summer mauve]

In this fight, can the Pale King make use of his buzzsaws?

I reckon he might win with those

[long wyvern]

HERRAH WTF

[normal plank]

chill 😭

[cerulean summit]

peak

[long wyvern]

STAG STATION SIGN TOO WTF IM IN DEEPNEST

[summer mauve]

Fair warning, this is the spoiler channel. I'd recommend leaving if you don't want spoilers

[long wyvern]

i want spoilers

[cerulean summit]

also is pharloom on an island or something?

[normal plank]

they are bugs underground

u can get to the surface tho

[cerulean summit]

coudlve sworn i remember someone mentioning a mainland at some point tho

[normal plank]

not too sure but there are tunnels connecting pharloom and hallownest

and to cross an ocean

underground

that is VERY VERY VERY deep.

but hey its also fiction sooo

[cerulean summit]

also will the lifeblood continue to spread? and like take over all of pharloom?

[normal plank]

u mean... plasmium?

its really cool how they 'renamed' it imo

like different kingdoms call it different names

[cerulean summit]

mb mb

[long wyvern]

wtf 💀💀💀

[normal plank]

daughter of three queens 🗣️

[long wyvern]

WHITE PALACE TOO

[dire lynx]

didnt you know, thats how hornet got her name

and her needle

[normal plank]

does to show that pharloom is perhaps more scientifically advanced?

[long wyvern]

noo tell me everything i need spoilers and lore

[normal plank]

experience game for yourself ❌
get spoilers from everyone ✅

on a real it will literally explain what is happenign if u do the parkour

[dire lynx]

she trained and was named under vespa in the hive, was raised by white lady and born from herra. Daughter of three Queens

[long wyvern]

DAMN I JUST SAW WHITE LADY TOO

[runic prairie]

Are these bugs human sized?

[cerulean summit]

i mean they could be right 🤷‍♂️

[normal plank]

also i dont think plasmium is the 'scientific name'. i am pretty sure it is just what the people of pharloom call it, or at least what zylotol calls it. hornet mentions she has seen a similar substance, which is obv hallownest's lifeblood, and he says that he doubts it as it doesnt grow anywhere else in pharloom.

[normal plank]

nothing in game that says so. no 'human sized things' to compare to.

[runic prairie]

That honestly sounds terrifying if they are right

[runic prairie]

I remember that some yt comment said that in dev interview, they confirmed bugs are human sized so that's why i need to confirm it here

[normal plank]

ahh i havent seen that! that is kinda cool and scary tho!

[dire lynx]

there is a statement about hornet throwing her needle 30 yards, id assume they are human size from that

[normal plank]

where is that?

[dire lynx]

TC tweet

Team Cherry (@TeamCherryGames)

Meet Hornet! But be wary! Her needle can cut a bug down from thirty yards. https://t.co/Jkmut0b3qn #gamedev #indiedev

X · Dec 9, 2014, 4:34 PM

[normal plank]

tyy

[brisk thunder]

might be 30 yards in bug unit thou

[normal plank]

yup that is def human sized

[normal plank]

i dont see any sort of unit of measurement for distance in either games. would be a bit of a stretch to say its "bug yards"

[runic prairie]

Bugs can pull things above their bodyweight so i guessss it's not impossible for them to pull this feat because it's kind of believable but this suggest nothing about them being human sized

[dire lynx]

if they were "bug size" hornet would be able to throw her needle across all of hallownest in one go

[normal plank]

the needle is the proportinal to hornet

[severe siren]

Barnacle area when

[tribal flame]

theyre using imperial measurements, confirmed hallownest exists in america or the uk

[severe siren]

Whats the lore on the likelihood of it returning

[normal plank]

oh dang! do u mind linking the confirmation statement?

[dire lynx]

pretty sure they're just having a laugh mate

[tribal flame]

im joking but its funny that an australian team is using imperial measurements

[normal plank]

oh dang 😭 im so gullible 😭

[dire lynx]

they also released the game at like midnight here in Aus, cater to your largest audience ig

[light saddle]

Yeeah. Tbh, it’d be worse if we used human measurements though. Iirc someone did the math, and if the length Hornet throws her needle equates to 30 yards, our little Knight would be like 10ft tall

[tribal flame]

like they could have said 30 meters and it would be almost the same give or take a few

[normal plank]

CAN throw her needle up to 30 yards and ACTUALLY throwing it 30 yards are different

[light saddle]

Ehhh, even still. The comment is from 2014, so this 30 yard metric oughta be treated with a mountain of salt regardless

[normal plank]

for the sake of what we are discussing, it is the only thing we have to compare to

but yea it was in 2014 so mountain? of salt

[light saddle]

…Does it really amount to anything though if we don’t actually know when or if she uses up that thirty yards in game?

[dire lynx]

yes, because a bug throwing 30 yards wouldnt make any sense if it was bug size

[normal plank]

for a bug to throw anything 30 yards it would have to be human sized

unless u can find me a bug sized bug that can do that

[light saddle]

That still doesn’t tell us how tall Hornet, or anything relating to her is, though :/

[dire lynx]

it tells us shes "big" and not tiny

[normal plank]

well ig u were the one who grought up hornet's height. the original question was if they are human sized.

[brisk thunder]

ok，30 yards is around 27meter
just imagine hornet at 1.5meter，which is around 18 times her body height，just find a room big enough to test her killing range

(Silk soar will do, but we can't kill using silk soar thou)

[normal plank]

how much silk does silksoar use?

[dire lynx]

one

[normal plank]

wtf

[light saddle]

Well… eh. Tiny is relative. She could be well below human sized, and still maintain the strength to throw that far. She’s basically a demigod, so it really isn’t far fetched at all imo

[normal plank]

by that logic all bugs smaller than her have demigod strength

[light saddle]

No? Because Hornet is actually a demigod. She’s a half god

[normal plank]

what i mean is the strength of a demigod

[light saddle]

…Why would that be the case?

[normal plank]

ie. the ants in hunters march throwing those wheels and stuff

they are smaller than hornet yet can throw things very far

[light saddle]

We don’t know if they can throw 30 yards though

[dire lynx]

again if she were bug size a single 30 yard throw would easily cross all of hallownest

[normal plank]

^

[light saddle]

Didn’t say bug-sized. I said smaller than human sized. They could be half the average height or even a fourth of it and I think they could still pull it off

[normal plank]

ok then what about the drill flying bugs in the vlasted steps

[dire lynx]

i dont see any reason to argue for a size aside from bug or human, other than to be a contrarian

[normal plank]

they shoot projectiles powerful enough to ricochet

[light saddle]

What about them?

[normal plank]

they are much smaller than hornet

[light saddle]

Ah. Again, I don’t really see how this poses a problem. There are small things irl that pack quite a punch

[normal plank]

but u said she is a demigod and thus her size justifies her power

[light saddle]

…No?

[normal plank]

^

[light saddle]

I said her demigod status justifies her power. Not her size

[normal plank]

ok that is a flaw in my phrasing, what i meant is that her size would make sense with her strength due to her demigod status

[brisk thunder]

Well, bugs are strong in compare to their body size in real world

[light saddle]

…Sorry, I think I’m just more confused. Are you saying it just makes more sense for her to be bigger because she’s half-wyrm?

[light saddle]

That’s true. Not that fantasy bug land has to abide by the logic, but it’s something to consider ^

[dire lynx]

again if she were bug size a single 30 yard throw would easily cross all of hallownest.
we are going in circles here people

[graceful grail]

What do i do with the cogheart??

[dire lynx]

find someone who needs it

[graceful grail]

Ah

[normal plank]

#sk-help

[graceful grail]

Oops

[normal plank]

we are saying that it only makes sense if she ishuman sized

[light saddle]

It’s not that they’re bug-sized. Just that generally bugs are quite strong for their size. Meaning that a bug from HK that’s about half the height of a human could theoretically be as strong if not stronger

[normal plank]

also, the pale king has no displays of physical strength so to say that her demigod status gives her physical strength is a bit far fetched

she had to be trained by vespa sooo

i think we should avoid saying demigod, cause all the vessels were born from 2 pale beings but u cant say they are all gods

[light saddle]

…You don’t think the Pale King, a wyrm, is physically strong? Or contributes to her strength in any way?

[dire lynx]

them being bugs is more of a stylistic choice than an actual narrative one. TC said they made the characters bugs because its easy to draw and make designs, i highly doubt actual bug biology plays into it

[normal plank]

he casted aside his wyrm form to become similar to his subjects

that wyrm body and its attributes are no longer valid

pale king is different to wyrm

[light saddle]

He didn’t stop being a wyrm when he took on his new form. We’re told he cast off his shell, not his strength

[light saddle]

No?? He’s still referred to as a wyrm multiple times in-game

[dire lynx]

most characters in the game dont even have the "correct" number of limbs

[normal plank]

Consequently, the Pale King is often still referred to as "Wyrm", as this was his former body.[4][5][6]

Mask Maker: "Has it witnessed that truth most tragic? The Wyrm's great shame sealed away."
Grimm Troupe content Troupe Master Grimm Dream Nail dialogue: "Fine craft dear Wyrm, and perfect tool to prolong the heart of Grimm."
Bardoon: "Tiny thing... Oh hmm... The mark of Wyrm you bear."

"The Wyrm's great shame sealed away."

[light saddle]

Aye, like I said — fantasy bug land. The team can pretty much include however much accurate or inaccurate biology they want to :0

[dire lynx]

fantasy bug land, the bugs are human sized :0

[light saddle]

You’re free to interpret it that way. What I’m trying to say is that it’s based off of very old and possibly outdated information, and there’s plenty of leeway for non-human sizes

[normal plank]

30 yards is spanning the entire hallownestt 😭

if they are bug sized, 30 yeards is the ENTIRE hallownest

regardless if this is outdated information

[dire lynx]

there is no reason to think that the characters are anything but human or bug sized and the only source we have suggests human, this discussion is going nowhere so i will no longer be participating

[light saddle]

You’re citing lines that are pretty clearly referring to the current PK as wyrm. Wouldn’t make sense to call him such if he wasn’t one.

[normal plank]

are we deadass 😭

it literally said his great shame was sealed away

they call him wyrm cause that is his former body

[light saddle]

Well that’s ridiculously binary, but alright — have a good night

[light saddle]

…What exactly do you think his “great shame” was in that context?

[bleak mauve]

yesterday i saw a video on reddit about a type of parasite inside mantis and constantly think it would be cool if it gets featured in HK lore

[light saddle]

The “great shame” is in reference to what the Pale King did in the abyss. You only unlock that dialogue after acquiring shade cloak. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here :/

[deft zealot]

What's going on with Dies Irae in the Silksong: Is there deeper meaning there? (beyond the vibes such a well known melody of death evoke)

[wicked saffron]

during the true final boss fight, was grandmother silk controlling lace or was she trapped in the silk

[peak harbor]

there’s much death to be found in pharloom; and during the story much more is caused. i can’t say for certain there’s meaning deeper than that though

[deft zealot]

I was under the impression [Lost] Lace was being puppeteered by the void and GMS was bound up in her own silk forced to watch.

[wicked saffron]

ah, makes sense, I didnt know it was gms's own silk

[deft zealot]

I think all silk in the game comes from GMS as a higher being or something
-# idk tho

[peak harbor]

yupyup

yupyup, GMS is stated to be the primal source of silk in the game text for the pale nails silk skill

[deft zealot]

I've been inferring lore from vibes and patterns recognized from HK, maybe it's time I actually read through all the journal and descriptions teehee

[wicked saffron]

o, didnt know that, as I still only have 3 silk skills as of now

[peak harbor]

o7 it’s later game content, though you can also infer gms’ dominion through the story as a whole imo. the pale nails text just confirms it for sure

[deft zealot]

How many other silkspawn are there besides Phantom and Lace (or are there any / do we know)?

[ember river]

Probably zero, or maybe eva

We don't really know

[lethal burrow]

I forget where it said that lace needs a periodic supply of silk to continue existing, it's said somewhere right

[ember river]

It doesn't say it like that but it does mention that "a very high alount of silk would be required to sustain her" in her entry

Also, phantom probably didn't receive any silk and that's why he was withering

That

o7

[olive timber]

I just took it to be representative of GMS judgement

Not sure how to truly articulate that but yeah

[deft zealot]

The more I learn about Pharloom the more the Dies Irae melody feels fitting

[jaunty fog]

What is up with mr mushroom?

[olive timber]

What isn't up with Mr Mushroom?

Most powerful being in the universe

[jaunty fog]

The dialogue seems serious an mysterious but he feels like a gag character

[olive timber]

Yeah that's the point lol

[deft zealot]

It's his duty to witness the turning of ages right? or he charged himself with that task or something idk. Love him though

[jaunty fog]

Wait so is he just like a joke character or does he have actual significance in the lore

[olive timber]

Mr Mushroom Just a silly fella

[olive timber]

Nah he's a gag character I'm just joking

[deft zealot]

Throughout the entire game. Titular theme song "Silksong" has it, it plays in GMS boss battle and many other places in the game.

[jaunty fog]

I was taking it seriously until he rocketed himself into the sky

[lost reef]

I'm curious about the red and white ants. Like it's obvious they're either a different ant, or they're an ant that's painted themselves with white paint to signify a difference. They don't seem haunted by the silk. They've been friendly, or open to trading with the player, or smarter in how they act even if they can't speak our language. I want to know what they are. If it is answered in-game I suppose I don't want to know yet, but if it's not, I would love to speculate.

Are they a different tribe of ants? are they even the same kind of ant as the skarr? it's clear the other ants murdered one of the redwhite ants.

[peak harbor]

most interesting lore trinket we get from mr mushroom is that in his special ending we see the stars

[lost reef]

notably, your name is STAR

[jaunty fog]

Ye i saw that and he was flying through the sky with the derpy face 😭

[peak harbor]

there may be reasons as to why i’m interested in that .5 second shot of the stars

[olive timber]

Same motiff

[deft zealot]

That's because The Shining is making use of the ancient gregorian chant Dies Irae

[olive timber]

Dead By Daylight's theme made me realise it. Idk what that says about me as a person 💀

[peak harbor]

yupyup, dies irae is a commonly reoccurring motif

it also appears in the lion king

[deft zealot]

The name of the song translates to "Day of Wrath" iirc

[lethal burrow]

he is the master harold

[olive timber]

But yeah I interpreted it as realy being about GMS judgement towards her subjects and how the strayed from the path by betraying her

[lost reef]

does no one else care about the ants ? :(

[lethal burrow]

yes

[olive timber]

The ants are cool ye

Maybe just an offshoot from the main Skarr or something

Or its another tribe, ants love waging war soooooo....

[jaunty fog]

Btw is lace a vessel for something? She called herself a empty shell and a husk. If so why is she alive at the end?

[jaunty fog]

Oh ok ty

[muted rover]

You think the certain people in Pharloom would freak out meeting the knight or could not comprehend the knight's body? Like hypothetically meeting Lace and GMS?

[olive timber]

She loathes her existence so it's not that direct

[lethal burrow]

She is made entirely out of silk

[peak harbor]

its moreso that she’s made entirely of silk, so she isn’t physical in a real sense

[deft zealot]

I'm still trying to figure out what's up with Lace's garden of flowers. Did some digging on silk and couldn't find the connection myself. Probably obious idk

[jaunty fog]

Wait so how is she alive by end of act 3?

[lethal burrow]

Why would she not be alive at the end of that when she's been alive up to this point?

[lethal burrow]

They look to be white roses

[jaunty fog]

I just assumed it meant shes like a puppet controlled by grandmother silk literally so she wouldnt be “alive” per se

Oh alright ty

[lapis creek]

shes definitely not controlled by gms

evidence for this is that she betrays gms

[neat sandal]

she just need kill those bugs and take these silk

[jaunty fog]

Hopefully more story on her and maybe how she finds a way to live after the silksong story

[olive timber]

Hornet will give her some silk dw <3

[jaunty fog]

Or just buy them from the vending machines

[lethal burrow]

well hornet can make silk out of soul so

[neat sandal]

survival of fitness. as all things should be

[ember river]

Hornet can just get silk from going into a hot spring

[jaunty fog]

Hornet and lace married through soul cannon?

[lapis creek]

isnt it implied that this is why gms was hunting down the weaver diaspora

to get enough silk to sustain lace

[peak harbor]

i’m honestly genuinely not sure if lace would be able to do the same since it seems as if hornet’s silk abilities are ambiguously some sort of fusion between silk and soul due to her wyrm-weaver lineage

[dapper willow]

The barnacle area
I recently saw some of the trailers of siksong, and the barnacle area seemed to have the same scuttling crab enemies that show up in mossy grotto after beating up the big spitting one

I think this is more evidence that the barnacle area used to be to the left of pharloom (or maybe it will appear there in a dlc)

[lapis creek]

is there any other good reason

[lethal burrow]

it is but only so, it's still a little iffy and we have to remember that grandmother silk isn't fully awake until we challenge her.

Before that, she's in some as of now ambiguous state in between full consciousness and complete sleep

[jaunty fog]

It is in the game

[dapper willow]

no its not

[lethal burrow]

sort of but not really

[jaunty elm]

nvm

[jaunty fog]

Oh mb is there more

[jaunty fog]

Sorry i thought you meant the underwater looking area with the jellyfish and corals

[maiden meteor]

gms was physically asleep but I think she had good enough control over haunted bugs

[dapper willow]

well thats the coral area

[jaunty elm]

but like can I beat the game then get infected

[lethal burrow]

in the trailer the memory we see of the tower is pretty much a whole area like verdania

It's clearly the past tower version as opposed to the sands in the modern day

[jaunty fog]

I mean its probably fallen? Since you need to use the song that brings you into the past or smt

[jaunty elm]

these costs are far too great

[olive timber]

I hope there's more to the coral area Crust King Kahn & his soldiers seem really interesting

[maiden meteor]

maybe we’ll get dlc about old pharloom kingdoms

[deft zealot]

Oh, in the animation that plays when you challenge GMS at end of act 2 the screen flashes as [either] GMS herself breaking out of the coccoon [or some other being intervening to cut her out?] What's going on there?

[lethal burrow]

no I'm going to repeat myself

In the trailer, it is there, like the area is there hornet is jumping around it.
But it is not in the final game

[olive timber]

MANTIS YAOI. BIGGER VERDANIA

[jaunty fog]

Do it for the achievement tho

[lapis creek]

yeah but i mean can lace continue to survive on hornet's silk alone, if the task of sustaining her was deadly for the weaver descendants who were already captured

i guess theyre weaker than hornet

[lethal burrow]

if you're asking why she wakes up specifically then... good question honestly, we're still figuring that out

[jaunty fog]

Ohhhhhh ok tyty

[jaunty fog]

PLS

[deft zealot]

No i mean... one sec lemme get a visual

[lethal burrow]

we know what mantis look like those ain't mantis

Their grasshoppers maybe or something I don't know

[maiden meteor]

10 hours of unfiltered bug yaoi incoming

[olive timber]

Yeah true mb mb

[deft zealot]

New pale being, who dis?
Is this just GMS?

[lethal burrow]

looks like it to me

[olive timber]

On second look... yeah, I'm stupid

[deft zealot]

I could see that pointy thing being her crown but the coccoon isn't fully broken yet which is why it seems like perhaps someone cutting her out with scissors.

[olive timber]

Grasshopper Yaoi

[jaunty fog]

Oh yea is there any lore on the weird crest and masks you get when binding grandmother silk

[jaunty fog]

I need a dlc with their full story and past

[dapper willow]

more crests in dlc when

[jaunty fog]

No i need a full game

[jaunty fog]

Beast crest with actual downswing when

[olive timber]

The lore tablet before the Clover Dancers like "yeaaahh this yaoi is doomed"

[lethal burrow]

well, what do you think

[deft zealot]

I think it's just Hornet soaking up and subsuming GMS place as a higher being. Basically you're ascending?

[jaunty fog]

I would assume its like grandmother silks power? Im not sure if theres signifigance in the mask changing looks and the weird crest shape tho maybe it shows how she was before?

[maiden meteor]

I think it’s just visual representation of binding GMS’ power

[jaunty fog]

Oh so its not that deep 🦫

[lethal burrow]

you're basically becoming the new Grandmother silk.

[olive timber]

Yay continuing the cycle \o/

[dapper willow]

I think its more nuanced than that

The cut ending was cut for a reason

[olive timber]

Is the song silky?

[lethal burrow]

actually, it is interesting when hornet becomes the new grandmother silk she automatically becomes asleep and bound in the same way... why?

[olive timber]

:O

[maiden meteor]

probably couldn’t handle that much power

[olive timber]

She was just 'eepy

[dapper willow]

She needs time to evolve
She awakens in the end of the cutscene I think

[hardy linden]

It looks like her headpiece

[olive timber]

Know who needs more lore Trobbio? I LOVE THAT MAN WITH MY WHOLE BEING

Need to read his whole stageplay 🙏

[lapis creek]

is she even still bound

doesnt she wake up at the end of the cutscene

[hardy linden]

inb4 he was inspired by the Grimm Troupe (most certainly not)

[lapis creek]

she covered the entire citadel in silk as well

[jaunty fog]

Im gonna get his red quill on my first steel run

[olive timber]

Grimm's gayer cousin

[hardy linden]

impossible

[olive timber]

Purple Quill

Do it

[jaunty fog]

Im blind asf sorry

[deft zealot]

I'm legit convinced there's a relationship bettween Trobbio and the Grimm Troupe but I'm content to be disappointed if proven wrong.

[hardy linden]

Same here

Also, don't think the Grimm Troupe would appear here because Pharloom isn't as dead as Hallownest, just haunted

[olive timber]

Think Tormented Trobbio was one anyway lol

[olive timber]

Grimm got stopped at customs

The infection ending bro would rock up tho right??

[hardy linden]

Got caught selling his child to passersby

[jaunty fog]

I still want to see the aftermath of beating act 3 hopefully itll be in dlc

[olive timber]

Aha omg

[hardy linden]

infection ending?

[olive timber]

The one with the lil creature thingy

[hardy linden]

Ah yes! Just exploring the world you've saved and possibly helping to rebuild it

[olive timber]

Sboulda chose my words more carefully mb

[jaunty fog]

What abt the long cogwork dancer trying to find his partner in the middle

[hardy linden]

Ooh, I didn't know that ||(Me who only found out that quest in Act 3)||

[jaunty fog]

Wait whats the ending requirement? I dont think ive seen it

It had me crying bro

[deft zealot]

||defeat GMS while cursed||

[jaunty fog]

I was like trying to focus up cus i thought it was phase 3 and then i was like nahh why you have to do this to me

[olive timber]

:((

[hardy linden]

Also, why was the Widow bound? (Hornet mentions that the Widow has her silk bound to her body) Didn't GMS want/need Weavers?

[jaunty fog]

Ohh ok im still doing that for achievement

[prime fog]

chat which hk ending was canon

[olive timber]

All of em ig?

[hardy linden]

Near the Cradle, y||ou see notes of her trying to gather Weavers||.

[hardy linden]

Godmaster

[deft zealot]

Only so long as they were doing what GMS wanted. Widow's allowed to weave the haunted silk to ensnare pilgrims.

[olive timber]

Except sealed siblings

[hardy linden]

||According to Silksong's Act 3 ending, ig||

[prime fog]

shade beast dialogue?

[deft zealot]

All of them. TC said outright the canon ending would be a mixture of them all.

[olive timber]

They all kinda end the same anyway. Godhome 2 my fav one because it implicates the flower

[deft zealot]

Though from what I can tell Panth 5 ending seems to be the most cannon

[olive timber]

So that one

[ember river]

This is what I think

[olive timber]

THK a thorn in the side of that one a lil bit tho so hmmm..

[hardy linden]

barely save? It delivered her to the platform with Lace

[ember river]

But the truth is it's intentionally left ambiguous between DNM and EtV

[hardy linden]

The achievement of getting that ending is also called ||Sister to the Void||

[deft zealot]

Lace's fate without silk to sustain her is uncertain I guess

[hardy linden]

hm.. true

[hardy linden]

Hornet makes silk... but yeah, it's uncertain

[gusty vapor]

So are they gonna milk hornet

I'm sorry, I had to say it. I should not have.

[olive timber]

Lmaoo

[lapis creek]

no weaver spawn have ever survived the milking before

[knotty fractal]

Whats the lore behind the first sinner ?

[olive timber]

Doubted faith, punished

[knotty fractal]

[olive timber]

The Apostate

[gusty vapor]

More active than that, crime was apostasy, so she stood by it

[rigid vale]

She got forced to become a weaver so she has to pay taxes for the kingdom

[olive timber]

Yeah I was oversimplifying

[deft zealot]

I don't think this is necessarily true. We see Hornet manipulating and utilizing silk and yes she's a weaver hybrid but does anything outright say Hornet can produce silk on her own?

[gusty vapor]

I feel worse abt widow tbh, her lore notes she was specifically punished/tortured by tying her silk

[ember river]

She can

Silk hearts do exactly that

[rigid vale]

Silkhearts

[hardy linden]

||Mr. Mushroom says "Cage of one who raged against the silken lie," as his hint to that location.||

[deft zealot]

Yeah the pins on Widow's back and confiscated mask have something to do with it I think

[ember river]

It's also plainly stated

First Sinner denied their own divinity

[knotty fractal]

[gusty vapor]

What a chadette

[deft zealot]

Saw through the lie that was weaver supremacy

[olive timber]

First Sinner and Widow's duality would make a crazy duo fight. The Apostate & The Fanatic

[gusty vapor]

"I'm just a bug" and stood by it

I dunno why widow was specifically tortured tho

[olive timber]

Went a bit overkill with the restraints

[gusty vapor]

It sounds awful considering that bugs like that dont stop producing silk

[olive timber]

Too her to superjail

[gusty vapor]

So that musta been constipating at minimum

Tho widow could still use some silk going off bellhart

[olive timber]

Coolest thing ever imo

[deft zealot]

Not her own though.

[hardy linden]

About the Slab... can you give ||the craw trinket (the one that absolves one of all crime)|| to the Old Penitent?

[dire lynx]

she was redirecting gms silk

[gusty vapor]

Huh? Whos silk was it

Thats such a cool quirk

So weavers can use silk that isnt their own

Tho ngl what was done to widow was lowkey heinous

If anyone deserves a vendetta its prolly her

[desert furnace]

I think crust king lets it crust

[deft zealot]

The what now? I missed an item? Alright see y'all in 30 hours /j

[gusty vapor]

Poor karmelita

The opera house man

[dire lynx]

it was her musical ability, like our needolin

[gusty vapor]

Ants used to have all that culture and now they break into basements to steal booze

[hardy linden]

Yeah, while doing Karmelita, I got the ||Craw summons|| while sitting on a nearby bench.

[olive timber]

Crawfather is kind of cool

[gusty vapor]

Craw summon spooked me im ngl

Then the fight itself is just beating the feathers out of a bird

[deft zealot]

Ah, that one I got.

[gusty vapor]

Its such a troll move to lock the passive bead and shard generator behind that

[desert furnace]

Hes got almost the same hp as lost lace

[gusty vapor]

Crawfather has massive punish windows tho

[olive timber]

He goes PECK PECK*

[gusty vapor]

Its why unraveled has a rep for being tanky despite only having half of lost lace's hp

Technically first sinner has more hp than gms

[hardy linden]

because that's something Hornet just puts in her home. Can no longer take it out and give to the Old Penitent (if it's possible)

[olive timber]

What's the Old Penitent anyway? Might have missed that

[deft zealot]

Easy to miss, remember the "empty" cell in the slab?

[hardy linden]

play a song in the Slab's empty cell

love the old guy

[lethal burrow]

non flower godmaster or dream no more

[olive timber]

Did not know there was an NPC there, cool

[hardy linden]

I'd visit him like the other NPCs on my journey, even if he didn't have new dialogue

[deft zealot]

What'd he even do?

[jaunty elm]

current hornet vs the knight who wins

[olive timber]

Got too silly

[deft zealot]

No, I mean what'd he do that made him Penitent. Why is he regretful?

[deft zealot]

Oh.

[hardy linden]

||Unnamed Sin, never to be absolved|| (you can find by talking to him)

[lethal burrow]

She can make her magic silk out of soul that is what you striking enemies to gain in the silk is she makes silk out of soul

[desert furnace]

Top 3 in silksong
1-Lost lace
2-Crust king
3-Karmelita

[lethal burrow]

This implies a lot of things that are not certain by any stretch

[deft zealot]

Yeah well according to some of the lore tablets around the game that could have been as small a "sin" as playing checkers before breakfast instead of waiting until second breakfast had passed.

[hardy linden]

You can see the detailed information (well, kinda detailed) on the prisoners in the Slab. His sin is called 'Unnamed' with some information. Would have to check when I get home tho

[gleaming creek]

If you were hit a cogwork robot with a dream nail, would they have dialogue?

[olive timber]

Think they do yes

[hardy linden]

They have a soul (iirc), so probably yea

[olive timber]

Pretyy sure there's dialog in the solo phase

[gleaming creek]

Cuz they sing when you play the needolin, but that could just be programming

Hitting them with dream nail might give different results

[neat sandal]

knight. more damage, more range, more i-frames, smaller hitbox

[deft zealot]

Are the cogwork bugs 100% artificial?

[olive timber]

The have butteflies in them so nah

[lethal burrow]

no cogwork or first sinner is bold

[hardy linden]

nvm, Hornet mentions that silk must be used in animating them

[desert furnace]

Its lore wise tbh

[lethal burrow]

Pretty much all the robots in the citadel have soul stuff going on

[hardy linden]

Also with her talk with Lace on her (Lace's) proof of living, it kinda fits?

[gleaming creek]

I guess the better question is if the little firefly inside of them has a soul.

[hardy linden]

Could just be because of GMS's influence

[gleaming creek]

Assuming the firefly is controlling the robot, and not just a living battery or sth

[olive timber]

Think that's just the residual silk escaping on death

Not entirely sure but they seem similar to the ones in The Mist idk

Try not to overthink it ig?

[hardy linden]

They also looked like the ones who freed Hornet and the Lumafly like things in lamps and lights

Which... why did they do so? Was it luck? Because there were other carriages in the Cradle

[gleaming creek]

My best guess initially was that they're lumaflies, but the ones in the Mist act differently than any lumaflies

So it's probably a different species entirely

[hardy linden]

Silkfly

[gusty vapor]

Theres a crack theory that either lace or phantom sent those flies btw

[olive timber]

Lace orchestrated them when we first meet her in Deep Docks so

[hardy linden]

ooh

[gusty vapor]

If you use the needolin vs phantom she mentions wanting to be freed iirc

[olive timber]

😭

[gleaming creek]

So phantom probably made silkflies

[olive timber]

Poor Phantom :(

Man, GMS SUCKS

[gusty vapor]

Worth noting btw her singing voice sounds nothing like her combat quotes, she sounds gorgeous

Oh also phantom has a similar mask to lace, only cracked and leaking

[olive timber]

We could have saved her if she wasn't so far gone </3

[hardy linden]

you can also play needolin in a room nearby which shows Lace, and Phantom within a container (which at least looks like the one that houses Eva)

Playing it has something along the lines of

'She spun us to fade... She spun us to break... Why us?... Why us, sister?'

[gleaming creek]

Afaik, the sisters are reanimated corpses, so she could be rotting?

[gusty vapor]

I like to think thats what got either of them to send the flies

[hardy linden]

They're silk constructs iirc

[gusty vapor]

Thats horrendous, so lace is based off a dead bug cocooned in silk?

[rigid vale]

Silk breaks overtime she needs to be constantly replacing it

[lethal burrow]

"SET ME FREE"

[hardy linden]

Also, GMS did love Lace, seeing as how she bared the void just to protect Lace

even if she'd cut her arm off

[deft zealot]

I feel termite coding in her design

[gusty vapor]

GMS was canonically an asshole tho

The 4 hearts we take are specifically from kingdoms she screwed over

[hardy linden]

Probably more complicated than that

[gusty vapor]

So I find it strange how she loves lace at the end

[lime nova]

I think the reason people get confused by "the weavers" involvement in the haunting is because multiple generations of weavers had many different opinions on it. The original ones to do it (according to mask maker) did it to seal Silk and rule in her stead, then clearly over time shit went bad and they regretted it and wanted to leave

[lethal burrow]

they're not reanimated they're just animated.

Beings of pure silk

[hardy linden]

Just like how PK lessened the influence of the Fungus, Unn and The Radiance

[uncut tundra]

[scenic stirrup]

My friend thinks garmond is just sleeping

[gusty vapor]

Coulda been an epiphany where she realizes shes dead and all she has is the child who struck her down

[lime nova]

Abusive parents often love their children. Silk is a complex character

[scenic stirrup]

How do i tell him chat

[olive timber]

He is :(

[scenic stirrup]

😭

[gusty vapor]

That could be it

[uncut tundra]

hi everyone

[olive timber]

Zaza will be sad </3

[hardy linden]

They'll meet back home, trust

[lethal burrow]

I think the haunting only started as a result of grandmother silk starting to wake up

[gusty vapor]

Also lost lace likely walked herself into the void out of spite to GMS

You can see GMS is getting by, barely, and the fact the arena didnt collapse in on itself

[lime nova]

I don't think we should think of characters in terms of black and white morality where abusing your child means you're a bad guy and sacrificing yourself for your child means you're a good guy, Silk is a tyrannical, abusive, narcissistic mother, who nonetheless loves her creations

[gleaming creek]

"Don't do it"
"Fuck u mom!" jumps into evil black goo

[hardy linden]

Hi!

[gusty vapor]

I mean its mostly down cuz theres very few interactions with her kids, and the only other true child was used as a glorified doorstopper in the exhaust organ

[uncut tundra]

What are you talking about

[lime nova]

I disagree. I think Silk wasn't capable of completely protecting her. You can see that Silk is also void coated, she's holding Lace back from being completely lost, but can't ward off the void entirely

[gusty vapor]

Thats possible too, I'm just basing my assumption off Lace's attitude more than the arena

[lime nova]

This is because Phantom is old and frayed. Silk lost interest in Phantom as she began to die, but that doesn't mean she never loved her

[hardy linden]

It's like (from Moss Mother notes, at least the first sentence)

'Motherhood is an instinct that can push creatures beyond what seems their normal limits. It turns even weaker beasts like these into formidable foes.'

[gusty vapor]

Bruh thats horrid, poor phantom. I'd have loved her as an npc.

[gusty vapor]

Yknow when you put it like that maybe moss mother is a good first boss

[deft zealot]

Does Phantom influence the Wraiths or do they coexist?

[gusty vapor]

Its rock solid forshadowing

Then the moss mother brings in her coparent lmao

[hardy linden]

Phantom commanded the mist. Also, according to Hornet's notes, she chose to go out in battle instead of face a slow end

[lethal burrow]

lace silk heart dialogue all but confirms that the 2 began existence when mother silk was not awake yet

[lime nova]

Lace's nihilistic attitude is a coping mechanism to deal with her powerlessness, I think. Lace gives off complex ptsd energy, and shows some signs of bpd. Pathological order avoidance, spite fueled actions, not taking anything seriously, etc

[hardy linden]

She wasn't haunted, so her action to fight Hornet was deliberate

[lime nova]

What?

[gusty vapor]

Hm, I can definitely see the bpd

[lime nova]

The wraiths are also the best evidence that Phantom is female, imo

Because a wraith is specifically a female spirit

[deft zealot]

I thought I saw Phantom referred to specifically with gender neutral pronoun in game somewhere

[lime nova]

Lace refers to her as "sister" I believe

[gusty vapor]

Also I love how she fights "depleted"

[deft zealot]

I thought that was Phantom referring to lace

[hardy linden]

Hornet uses gender neutral for many bugs in her notes because she doesn't know her gender

[gusty vapor]

She does move like an old warrior with no gimmicks

[vague whale]

no other way around

[gusty vapor]

Yeah but her true moveset is very much high skill and finesse

[lime nova]

I wonder if Phantom was her original name

[gusty vapor]

Even her big aoe moves are just her launching herself up at us

She actually fights a bit like she taught lace

They have a similar 3 strike combo

[hardy linden]

She probably did, tbh

[vague whale]

Yep they're very similar

[lime nova]

Phantom is what Lace would have become had Hornet not stepped in to save her. Lace will still grow grey and frail one day, but at least she'll be granted a dignified death

[gusty vapor]

In fact phantom and lace have the same mask

[hardy linden]

(THEORY) but she could be Lace's elder sister, before GMS redined her technique of weaving silk into life

[vague whale]

Vibes cause she is lol

[lime nova]

I'd love to draw a design for young Phantom

[vague whale]

she literally is Lace's older sister

[gusty vapor]

Phantoms is just cracked but they have the same eyes

[lime nova]

Lol

[hardy linden]

Probably not, dialogue with Lace suggests that she's much older and was created in her current form

[gusty vapor]

I just like phantom because shes very telegraphed for someone fast

Shes fighting like someone skilled whos pushing themselves

[hardy linden]

yeah, yeah, but my point was also about her being less refined due to GMS's lack of experience with weaving silk into life

[lime nova]

I... disagree? There's a memory of Lace looking in the mirror, seeing Phantom (ooo metaphor) and saying "why us, sister? She spun us to fade, she spun us to break"

She's seeing Phantom break with age and seeing herself

[vague whale]

Yep

[hardy linden]

Yeah, then that's probably what it is

[lime nova]

Pretty sure the game literally says Phantom is "grey with age"

[vague whale]

It does

[deft zealot]

OH THAT'S A MIRROR. Okay I see now

[maiden meteor]

Is it mirror? I thought that’s like Phantom’s sustenance chamber

[hardy linden]

Forgot about that, lol

[vague whale]

It's a tank, technically, like Eva's

[lime nova]

Nah it's a mirror pretty sure

[deft zealot]

That's what I thought

[lime nova]

Hmmmm... I don't think so?

[vague whale]

It is

[deft zealot]

It does look just Like Eva's tank

[lime nova]

God I wish we had the name of the sprite

[hardy linden]

I took it as a tank

[vague whale]

But you can still spot your own reflection even in clear glass. It gets big metaphor energy

[lethal burrow]

lace silk heart dialogue all but confirms that the 2 began existence when mother silk was not awake yet

[lime nova]

If someone can find the file for that sprite and read the name

Ohhhh

[lime nova]

Explain how or why

[maiden meteor]

p sure it’s a tank

[vague whale]

it is a tank

[maiden meteor]

Phantom is floating in it

[lime nova]

I'm sorry but that's the most mirror looking mirror I've seen in my life

[vague whale]

It's metaphorically a mirror, it is a tank

[deft zealot]

Okay not exactly the same but there's some design overlap

[lime nova]

Oh hmmmm

We know Lace is younger, so why would she see Phantom in her tank?

[deft zealot]

I never even noticed Eva's silhouette until now.

[hardy linden]

rejuvenation chamber?

[lethal burrow]

"..Better a child spun mad... than none...
...Better a child spun frail... than none...
...Better a child spun pure... than them...
...One to wish our waking..."

"...From our Silk... A child born loyal..."

she could not have been made before mother silk was put to sleep because she didn't know she was going to be put to sleep by the Weavers and obviously she's not awake yet if she's talking about witnessing her waking

[lime nova]

Oh right yes, to wish our waking

Also thanks TC for making that extra confusing by having Silk refer to herself as "our"

She uses plural pronouns ahhhh

[lethal burrow]

its the royal we

[hardy linden]

probably because she's a higher being

[lime nova]

Oh I've not heard of that

[deft zealot]

Maybe it's some kind of silk thing to keep Phantom from completely withering away that she must use occaisionally to top off on Silk without leaving the Exhaust Organ idk.

[lethal burrow]

look up the royal we :>

[lime nova]

Do other HBs also do this? Have we seen what the White Lady uses?

But yeah, the Lace silk heart dialogue is about how the weavers have betrayed Silk and put her to sleep, so she's crafting new children, purely from silk in the hopes that they will be obedient and loyal, and awaken her from her slumber

This is Silk's folly

Assuming anyone could be blindly loyal with no will

Silk was essentially attempting to create a Hollow Knight in Phantom and Lace, Hornet even acknowledges this parallel

[lethal burrow]

she just wants a child that won't fuck her over

[lime nova]

The message being that there exists no such thing as life without will

[gusty vapor]

A being of void and intent

[lime nova]

LMAO had to edit that quickly

[gusty vapor]

Revert the edit coward

[lime nova]

Grand Mommy Silk

[lethal burrow]

Glares at pale king

[lime nova]

Lace and Phantom are absolutely a take on the vessels

[gusty vapor]

Whats neat peripheral lore is GMS does not give a fuck about bells lmao

[summer mauve]

Didn't click that this was probably about the Hollow Knight

[craggy bison]

wait who was she talking about

[gusty vapor]

The bell kink was a holdover from the old kingdom GMS yoinked it from

[craggy bison]

thk?

[gusty vapor]

Presumably wyrms or smtn

[lime nova]

Yes

[lethal burrow]

she's talking about the pale kings treatment of the vessels

[summer mauve]

Presumably. I don't think she was referring to herself. While she probably had a rough childhood, I don't think anyone claimed she wasn't alive

[gusty vapor]

I do enjoy how both HK games give a lot of importance to parental love

Whether it be the presence, absence, or deprivation of it

[lime nova]

No. She is saying that Lace's belief that she's not truly alive mirrors that of thk's, and wishes to save her from that thinking before she suffers the fate of a hollow being forced into service, like her sister was

[gusty vapor]

I was talking abt pharloom's bell craze

[lime nova]

The Hollow Knight series is ultimately about the relationship between creator and creation

Hornet the goat fr

[gusty vapor]

PK also only botched it once for the impure vessel right

[summer mauve]

Someone should set up a group session between the Pale King and The Emperor (warhammer 40k)

[lethal burrow]

tbh I wonder if the pale king had a child when his world wasn't on the brink of apocalyptic collapse if he would've been a semi decent dad

[summer mauve]

They both have similar ambitions

And similar downfalls

[gusty vapor]

Daily reminder emperor eats 1000 psykers a day

[lime nova]

The game was called Hollow Knight: Silksong, so they had to find some way to put a "hollow" "knight" in there

[craggy bison]

i mean true bro made like 2000 children just to kill most of them off soon after birth

[summer mauve]

Don't treat your kids as disposable while also granting them godlike power / responsibility

[gusty vapor]

Its so bad the bottom cavern of the abyss has masks instead of ground

[craggy bison]

also wasn't there a scrapped abyss bench design that was literally made of the knight's dead siblings

very comfy

[lime nova]

I'd say it's more about how creating life means creating an independent being with its own will, and trying to force your will onto it will inevitably lead to betrayal and abandonment

[gusty vapor]

U got a pic

[gusty vapor]

Meanwhile hollow knight is the opposite, creating an independent being of no will doesnt mean it cannot develop said will

[neat sandal]

emperor sleeping on throne while his terralord transform his empire to living hell

[craggy bison]

hold up let me try to find one

[neat sandal]

silksong is wh40k

[gusty vapor]

The void may as well be chaos

[lime nova]

Look at Hornet, she's the only child of a higher being to be portrayed as a success, as what life should be

The red memory highlights the key difference. The three queens wished for her freedom. Freedom to make her own will, her own future, her own life

Hornet's existence and prosperity is the message

[gusty vapor]

Also her gender

[bright igloo]

In lore she would never do it, but I wonder if hornet could learn to use the needolin to fully control people

[lime nova]

Holy fuck this writing is so peak what

[deft zealot]

For it to be in the Exhaust Organ makes me think it serves some kind of purpose that allows Phantom to stay there and continue. Also there's this line about how the Exhaust Organ's purpose is to like.. expel refuse or something but I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean.

Just did a bit of digging and there's a reddit thread about it connecting Eva as well and someone agreed that it's purpose is likely something akin to life support for Phantom and the needolin scene there is depicting a time before Phantom was the one who keyed the Organ. I wonder if there was an organ player before Phantom or if the entire Organ was constructed as a new purpose for her after she was deemed a failure. Also the concept that Eva was a prototype made by weavers pre-Phantom leads into the idea that Phantom was crafted in no small part through the help of weavers and not entirely by GMS herself. Perhaps this distinction is what led to Lace and GMS didn't employ weavers in Lace's creation?

I still need to learn more about Weavers though. I haven't figured out their timeline, origins, etc. I think First Sinner's cutscene is depicting the creation of the first weaver but it doesn't look like a proper weaver so some kind of primordial weaver? Are they creating their own silk from soul like Hornet can (as a weaver quality) or is that [mostly] a unique power of Hornets and the weavers were reliant upon GMS' Silk?

[gusty vapor]

Idk why her having a gender is such a big deal but the game def portrays it as such

[craggy bison]

i can't find it anywhere maybe it was fake i just saw it in a video once

[gusty vapor]

Im not gonna lie thatd be fucking neat if phantoms arena was just a life support machine

[lime nova]

Gender is inherently an individual expression of identity and self. Hornet having a gender means that she gets to express herself, that she's an individual. The vessels are literally called "it", treated like objects and not people. The dehumanization of one's own children

[craggy bison]

NVM I FOUND IT

[gusty vapor]

Oh, i guess it was that simple. Thanks.

[gusty vapor]

Wow this is fucking horrible

[neat sandal]

I think both Lace and Phantom role is keep citadel silence.
Phantom prevent anyone enter citadel while Lace kill anyone lucky crossed

[gusty vapor]

Tbh lace seemed more like a wandering lunatic

[craggy bison]

imagine resting on the corpses of your siblings

[gusty vapor]

Phantom guards a specific entry point, Lace wanders around

[craggy bison]

indeed

[deft zealot]

Perhaps she sees her task as pointless since the blockades already in place make it nearly impossible to ascend to the cradle and she's just a last line of defense playing with her food?

[vague whale]

she's bored okay

[craggy bison]

wait till he finds out that abusing the void for power has consequences

[vague whale]

He ain't find out nothin cuz he dead

[craggy bison]

true

no wait

the knight is a reincarnation of pale king so he's alive

[prisma jay]

So is the void the bottom of the entire world of hollow Knight?

[deft zealot]

Is that confirmed or still just a theory

[craggy bison]

it's a bad theory that i'm making fun of

[lime nova]

Hornet speaks of being a victim of the weaver curse of struggling to have children, and also speaks of having many lovers over the course of her life that she outlived. This paints the picture that Hornet tried to start a family multiple times and always failed

[craggy bison]

we don't know maybe

[lime nova]

Like, Hornet has canonically had miscarriages

[vague whale]

[craggy bison]

wait when was that confirmed

[hardy linden]

Where was that about her struggling to have children? Might have missed it

[craggy bison]

it's true bro trust

[vague whale]

Not necessarily, she could've just been unable to conceive in the first place

[craggy bison]

white lady calling the knight her spawn was just a silly little joke

[hardy linden]

because Hornet's notes only include her talking about having mates but none of them could match her lifespan

[craggy bison]

doesn't say she had miscarriages

it never said she was ever pregnant it just said she had mates

[lime nova]

"I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also it's victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits. "

As well as one of the journal entries (cogwork dancers?) referencing her having lovers

[vague whale]

All we know is that Weavers can't have kids, and Hornet also suffers from this "curse," we don't know what it actually entails

Personally I'd highly doubt Hornet actually had miscarriages

[dapper willow]

They can have kinds its just hard for them

[lime nova]

Yes we do, Eva says it's highly painful and nearly impossible for weavers to have kids

[hardy linden]

They can? There are carriages in the Cradle that speak of 1/8th Weaver and 1/4th Weaver and the like

[craggy bison]

prolly because weavers are just transformed pharlids idk how that might be related to not being able to have kids tho

[lime nova]

Their warped biology likely leads to complications with reproduction

[neat sandal]

wtf 💀
yesterday we have incest lover now we have 🤰 🕷️

[lime nova]

There it is! Thank you!

[vague whale]

Yes, that isn't specifics on the biological aspect, which again I highly doubt Team Cherry is going to tell us about

[hardy linden]

Yeah, but it says nothing about having children, just that her mates couldn't match her lifespan

[lime nova]

Hornet saying she suffers from the curse of struggling to have children, as well as referencing past lovers, makes miscarriages almost guaranteed imo

There's no other interpretation

[vague whale]

There most certainly is??

[lime nova]

How would Hornet know she struggles to have children if she never tried

[craggy bison]

have you ever thought that she can't get pregnant in the first place

[dapper willow]

okay this is very cursed

[lime nova]

I may be stupid

[vague whale]

Again, she could just be unable to conceive

[winter iris]

Perhaps its due to Hornet being an hybrid of Higher being and an strong bug.
She might just be incompatible with anyone.

[lime nova]

Okay, yes, I accept that both are plausible explanations

[neat sandal]

I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.

Are you sure you not using French localization

[lime nova]

No she very directly says it's because of the weaver curse

[hardy linden]

Hmm, you're right. Been a while since I was in that section:

Hornet: How did you come to be sealed here, Eva?
Lady, you mistake. What seems a cage is as much my shell as the form inside.
I was born within this space. To leave would be my death, an uninspired end, though one I've sometimes wished would come.
I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by it

[lime nova]

That text is pretty explicit, no? "I am also its victim" ie "I also cannot have kids"

[ember musk]

could seths shield be made of the same material as shakras rings? they seem to have the same effects and sounds

[marble tartan]

What an excellent use of the lore chat this is 😭

[lime nova]

What's the issue?

This is perfectly mature discussion, it's just about a sensitive topic

[craggy bison]

maybe weavers can only have kids with higher beings

[hardy linden]

Oh well, she can still adopt children with Lace

[lime nova]

LMAO BASED

Lace arguably is her adopted child tbh

[vague whale]

We technically do not actually know that Hornet knows she can't have kids, she may simply be assuming this from what she knows about Weavers (and she'd likely be right)

[vague whale]

true and based

[lime nova]

She may be assuming, but then why would she say that the reason she knows the curse well is that she's also its victim

[craggy bison]

true

[neat sandal]

Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?

more context
victim of the attempt to defy that cruel constraint

[agile wedge]

Was this cut from the game ?

[deft zealot]

yup

[vague whale]

No, I agree, it's just not anything confirmed.

[craggy bison]

i think she's more like an older sister to lace but oh whatever

[hardy linden]

Eh...? (I choose to ignore this because of the yuri, but yeah... Hornet does refer to Lace as child)

[lime nova]

Like, "I know it well, because I'm the victim of it" very clearly suggests that she has faced the concequences of the curse firsthand

[craggy bison]

yes

[hardy linden]

When was this going to be?

[vague whale]

wooooo yuri

Silksong Yuri Game of the Year

[hardy linden]

But that's before Hornet found out that Lace was a being fashioned from silk

[agile wedge]

Was meant to be an ending I think

[craggy bison]

i believe it's a cut version of the Weaver Queen ending

i don't think it's like mentor

[lime nova]

You're all absolutely correct that she could simply be unable to get pregnant, but to me, the curse also entailing pain in delivering suggests the curse is less about conception and more about delivering

[vague whale]

I think that's definitely a stretch and also kinda weird to assume

[craggy bison]

idk how to explain but to me it's more like those siblings that always argue and toxic to eachother but when shit gets serious they care for eachother a lot

[wary plover]

It's so weird that the cradle with the silk ball looks exactly like the citadel's icon

[hardy linden]

I'm checking the wiki and you could encounter Lace in the Chambers??

[lime nova]

Huh?

[marble tartan]

How did grand mother silk just let her kingdom and citadel do all this nonsense

[vague whale]

Sleepy

[deft zealot]

You're intended to (it's just dialogue)

[wary plover]

Yeah you meet her and you tell her even gods can fall and set her on a psychosis trip

[craggy bison]

yes when you enter the citadel for the first time lace confronts you in choral chambers

[slow musk]

they tricked and imprisoned her (the weavers)

[hardy linden]

Don't most spider children eat their mother when born?

[marble tartan]

So your telling me she was just eepy?

[marble tartan]

Oh ok

[vague whale]

eepy :)

[hardy linden]

Also when she meets Tall Mother, she talks of such

[marble tartan]

Why would the weavers do that though. That’s kinda mean ya know

[craggy bison]

they wanted freedom i believe

[slow musk]

they wanted to be more independent because gms was pretty controlling

[lime nova]

Uhhhhh maybe? I don't think most, no

[vague whale]

Well to be fair. gestures at what GMS actually did

[hardy linden]

Oh that... I thought it was about meeting her like you meet Garmond there

[marble tartan]

Oh ok Idk how I missed that lore wise; thanks

[craggy bison]

which ending

[vague whale]

no, typically the females just eat the males after the mating in some species

[craggy bison]

oh

[deft zealot]

Hornet probably pities Lace. I wouldn't liken their relationship to Hornet's training under Vespa though

[slow musk]

sister of the void is true ending i believe?

[vague whale]

why do I know this

[slow musk]

spoodre lore is very fascinating

[craggy bison]

most likely

[scenic stirrup]

Silk song is so good i bought it twice 😭

[ember river]

Twisted child is the true ending

[scenic stirrup]

Yay i can play on my switch now

[hardy linden]

From the Huntress (Broodfeast): (mostly referring to this)

You've done well, sspppidderrr. Upon these fine meats my children will gorge and grow.
Hornet: And better the organs of others than they feed upon your own, yes
Sssssskkkk... One should not be surprised, for the sssspppider to perceive the truth of my requests.
Hornet: A child of one like you, many times I've seen it similar. They will be born hungry, with sharp tooth and claw.
Hornet: In their birth-craze, your own meat would delight as much as another bugs. This feast is distraction, in hope to save your shell.
Is that shameful? A mother who would not sacrifice herself for her children to grow sssstttrong? Is it wrong to want? To witnesss their first flight, their first hunt. To see them kill, and grow?
Hornet: Your choice is your own, tall mother. You won't be judged by me. I've seen enough sacrifice. I've no love for the act.

[lime nova]

"I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task"

Idk like, to me, any conversation about a curse resulting in pain with conception immediately makes me think of Adam and Eve, where Eve is punished by God to experience great pain in childbirth, which by the way, also resulted in death very commonly in early human history

Also Eva's name is Eva. Evangelion uses Eva as a stand in for Eve from the bible as well. I'm seeing obvious parallels

[craggy bison]

i hope we get a dlc where hornet comes back to hallownest after sister of the void ending or something like that

[slow musk]

is this a meme
twisted child is also the ending with the least amount of detail on what happens though

[ember river]

Eva is also how Eve is said in many non English languages

[craggy bison]

everyone died

[lime nova]

Yeah

[hardy linden]

Could be called curse because of lack of scientific medical research in that field

[ember river]

You awaken a new twisted root god

[lime nova]

Sure, but this is literary fiction, TC chose that wording for a reason

Heh, root

[slow musk]

yeah that's my theory on it too, the twisted god parasitizes the citadel through the silk in their shells which it takes over
what are the implications of this? ehhhhhh who knows

[ember river]

I think there's no specific true ending, but SotV is "true" in the same sense DNM and EtV were

[craggy bison]

and they said shakespeare was dead

[ember river]

They are the actually good endings

[lime nova]

Every ending except the last one is just "higher being destroys pharloom lol"

[ember river]

Then it's just "Void destroys Pharloom"

[craggy bison]

yeah but like weaver queen feels kinda pointless because hornet just becomes the new grandma silk and destroys the citadel

[slow musk]

i'd argue that the first one was more like 'hornet fails to resist her wyrm instincts and becomes a tyrant'

[ember river]

She ascends into godhood

[deft zealot]

If one thing's for sure, Lace 2 proves that she don't need more training. Like I know you canonically beat her in battle twice and then again when empowered and possessed by void.. but I think she's proven capable of handling herself in combat so the title screens are probably more sisterhood symbolism than some kind of mentor/trainee relationship.

[ember river]

That's her impulse, of both wyrm and weaver parts

[craggy bison]

same thing with vessel ending in hk, we just temporarily seal the radiance until it inevitably breaks out again

[ember river]

Weavers tried to usurp/replace GMS for a long long time

[lime nova]

I can totally see Silk being against the weavers having children of their own. Silk hates the idea of her creations having freedom, and being able to raise children of their own seems like it would be very upsetting to her. The curse may have been intentional

[slow musk]

so she doesn't necessarily destroy pharloom herself but is certainly in a worse position when it comes to her own goals than she was before

[hardy linden]

yuri

[deft zealot]

weigh anchor already 😆

[hardy linden]

probably not canon, but it's canon to me

[ember river]

Her own goals were finding the truth and kicking GMS's ass

[craggy bison]

i don't like hornet x lace please don't kill me

[lime nova]

I genuinely think the story of Adam and Eve served as inspiration for a lot of Silksong

[marble tartan]

What happened to the weavers again?

[craggy bison]

they dieded

[hardy linden]

Who is Adam in this?

[marble tartan]

Well yeah, but how exactly

[hardy linden]

nectar

[craggy bison]

prolly because they couldn't reproduce and they just went extinct idk

[ember river]

They stopped living

[hardy linden]

Nuu ate them all

[slow musk]

and also 'freeing pharloom' as can be seen in her dialogues during the silk and soul quest
which she fails at if she becomes the weaver queen. she just gives up and perpetuates the cycle of usurpation and imprisonment that grand mother silk started

[lime nova]

https://tenor.com/view/jax-mind-head-caine-tadc-the-amazing-digital-circus-gif-11473795206802445903

[vague whale]

...why though

[pine pecan]

New thing I just learned: Weavers were originally Pharlids.

[lapis geode]

NooooOO!
No way that wha'ts happening. I just come back from Huntress lair and she's nowhere

[wary plover]

Beside Seth, hornet, lace, and shakra are there any other emotionally stable fighters?

[ember river]

I don't like that plotpoint that much, we saw plenty of weaver children in HK

[craggy bison]

pharlids but silky

[lone nimbus]

What happens to pharloom after the abandoned ending?

[hardy linden]

If you completed her quest, it's implied she ran away with her children

[deft zealot]

GARMOND YOU HEATHEN

[wary plover]

I would not call him emotionally stable

[slow musk]

i wouldnt call lace emotionally stable tbh

[hardy linden]

otherwise, you see her corpse and have to do the quest for the runt of her litter

[lime nova]

The story of Adam and Eve is about God creating man in his image, and giving them a paradise to roam in, but they use their free will to go against his wishes, and so he banishes and curses them

The parallels to Silk and the weavers is very blatant imo

[lone nimbus]

It's in her description that she is manic

[ember river]

I don't think all of them were pharlids, the cutscene is there to show they aren't a race made wholly by a god as some sort of angels, they are just uplifted normal bugs

[wary plover]

What do you mean? She's not corrupted by the void or silk

[vague whale]

no????

[craggy bison]

well they didn't entirely go extinct due to first sinner, widow, hornet and that one weaver in deepnest existing

[lapis geode]

So Huntress is dead, DEAD?

[marble tartan]

This may be a dumb question but what is a wyrm?

[lone nimbus]

beeeg worm

[lapis geode]

Dune worm

[wary plover]

A sort of higher being

[craggy bison]

big worm

[lone nimbus]

yes

[slow musk]

her entire personality is really immature and quite similar to that of a teenager
look at her dialogues with hornet

[pine pecan]

A Higher, sometimes pale, being. The Pale King was a Wrym

[hardy linden]

You don't need a haunting to be unstable.

[ember river]

First Sinner is in the same state as the weaver altars all over the path

[lime nova]

Yes? Silk creates the weavers in her image, the weavers go against her wishes, so she punishes them severely and they flee pharloom. Also they struggle to have children as part of a curse, which God did to Eve

[lapis geode]

https://tenor.com/view/shai-hulud-sandworm-dune-worm-dune-dune-2-sardaukar-gif-9484219748191207712

[lone nimbus]

Well she is kind of psychotic...

[lime nova]

How do you not see parallels???????

[marble tartan]

Oh ok now I remember; thanks

[vague whale]

obviously there's the "a god created a race of people" thing but Adam and Eve weren't even the first story for that, and there's no Devil and Apple Tree parallels for Pharloom

[pine pecan]

Also, I am doing a Data Dive of Silksong rn using Asset Studio. I think the Unity version 2023.2.20f1 is the Version that Silksong Used. (Where should I go with stuff like this?)

[ember river]

Giant magic worms that can see the future and want to conquer stuff and make mighty kingdoms

[hardy linden]

Oh yeah, who is Satan in Pharloom?

[lime nova]

They literally get punished for choosing to have free will

What are you talking about

[lone nimbus]

What happens to pharloom after the abandoned ending?

[craggy bison]

the vintage nectar guy

[hardy linden]

I knew it

[vague whale]

which is not the story of Adam and Eve

[lone nimbus]

Creige?

[craggy bison]

yes

[lone nimbus]

HE DID NOTHING 😭

[lapis geode]

Why Creige?
Blue blud seems safe

[vague whale]

go pick out a different religion's human creation myth

[deft zealot]

FYI the devil and apple tree stuff is not always the same in the Adam & Eve story. Depending on your faith the story goes very differently.

[wary plover]

Wait people think lace is psychotic and unstable? She's a little weird but I think she's not like insane insane

[lime nova]

....yes it is? Adam eats from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, going against gods wishes and giving him free will, and he gets punished

[lone nimbus]

Who's the guy on your pfp?

[craggy bison]

he definetly knew about the infestation in his basement but refused to tell hornet about it

https://tenor.com/view/dexter-doakes-squint-stare-suspicious-gif-14432154109786838518

[lime nova]

Do you just not know this story very well?

[vague whale]

No actual character in particular, just neat art I saw years ago

[lone nimbus]

In her description it says that she is manic

@craggy bison Wym?

[ebon silo]

So what are weavers exactly like who created the big headaas people

[lone nimbus]

Oh, alr

[ember river]

GM Silk did

[pine pecan]

Grandmother Silk turned Pharlids into Weavers

[lime nova]

Literally the point of the Adam and Eve story is to explain why man has free will, why evil exists, and why God abandoned man

[lone nimbus]

Silks a chess gm?

[ebon silo]

But why bother making them if they were going to be captured anyway or did she made them so produce more silk

[vague whale]

Why are you adding in free will here? The thing is being tempted by Satan and then having the knowledge that they are doing wrong, the story is not about free will

[ember river]

No, God made man with free will and man used that free will to disobey God, thus creating the original sin, that's the story in a nutshell

[ebon silo]

@lime nova W Splatoon pfp I see own of my own kind in here

[lime nova]

To be servants I think

[lone nimbus]

God hasn't abandoned man?

[craggy bison]

when you go get the vintage nectar from his basement a bunch of ants start ambushing you, and when hornet says that "she assumes that he forgot to tell her about the infestation" he starts acting very suspicious

[lime nova]

What...