sk-lore

[grand kayak]

tbf its not like the knight was walking up to Mr. Mushroom and asking him questions

[sacred pike]

well yeah thats true

[umbral moth]

but they should at least be aware that you're no intruder at the very minimum and shouldn't attack you, yet they don't stop

[sinful nimbus]

Mr Mushroom also does that to the knight

[umbral moth]

as mentioned earlier, the royal retainers bow to you if you have it on

[sinful nimbus]

You are an intruder you are NOT meant to be there

[sacred pike]

its interesting that he addresses her as wyrm child not weaver child

[heavy gyro]

Void particles in his throne room, and void escaping from kingsmoulds near his throne room implies that it and killed him. And don't say "he was bright enough to repel them", even though his afterglow lingered, it could still have faded in power. Team cherry clearly intended for pale king to have died from kingsmoulds judging by these details and hornets ss entry

[lean temple]

I think it's that they put her to sleep so they can rule for a while, then they set up the Citadel to continue lulling her to sleep

[umbral moth]

the royal retainers bow to you if you have the king's brand on

[sinful nimbus]

Void particles aren't hostile

[lethal burrow]

don't forget the information from silk song where we know void seeks out soul and the kingsoul's relation to the pale king and his soul association, and all that

[sacred pike]

But void constructs can be

[umbral moth]

so the royal retainers don't see you as an intruder, why should the kingsmould if what you're saying is correct

[sinful nimbus]

They do that regardless of king's brand or not

[umbral moth]

very true, that as well

[sinful nimbus]

Retainers aren't guards

[foggy fractal]

are we arguing if the kingsmoulds did their function ?
even if the kingsmoulds attacking tk wasn't in their function how would Hornet know

[lethal burrow]

if you had to place a specific event or thing that caused her to wake up, what would it be?

[heavy gyro]

Can you read, void particles imply void attacked him from the kingsmoulds

[sacred pike]

that too, hornet would never know about Kingsmould attacking the Knight in dream realm

[sinful nimbus]

No it doesn't. There are dead kingsmoulds so there is also void particles nearby

[lean temple]

She's implied to have been stirring in her sleep. I don't think she fully wakes up until Hornet challenges her

[sacred pike]

and i dont think the Knight can tell her about his dream ventures

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing about the presence of void particles implies PK died by the kingsmoulds

Its not like the kingsmoulds you fight use void attacks

[viscid ridge]

Wait im on my 3rd playthrough and only NOW realized that grindle actually does give you useless information if you pay him, just like TC said he would. I can't believe i missed that 🤣

[lethal burrow]

Sure, but I mean what caused her to start waking up

[valid compass]

idk why you think literal black juice of evil can be usable

[sinful nimbus]

It was usable

[sacred pike]

I like to think whatever enchantment weaver did eventually wore off

[lethal burrow]

just ignore her if we wish to ever have any fruitful discussion on anything else

[sacred pike]

Limited use, and end up failing

[heavy gyro]

Why would they add that seemingly specific details of kingsmoulds being broken and void escaping, with the pale king dead all in one room, its called subtext

[sinful nimbus]

Kingsmoulds never failed

[lean temple]

That's a hard question tbh. We know the Weavers fled because of her, so maybe they messed up somehow? Or the Weavers just could not keep her fully asleep and she woke up on her own.

[sinful nimbus]

Kingsmoulds broke down when there was no one else to serve

[sage creek]

hornet got their blade from the ||hive||?? interesting

[sinful nimbus]

Subtext generally doesn't rely on non sequitur

[heavy gyro]

Except the ones everywhere else in white palace, sure

[lethal burrow]

put this on a pale king poster along the walls of the streets with a kings mould doing a salute and white light shining behind them

[sinful nimbus]

Those still have a purpose

[heavy gyro]

Purpose of what

[valid compass]

the citadel failed its function and the song which put her to sleep stopped or something

[edgy river]

Then was the haunting something she was uncontinously doing in her sleep?

[umbral moth]

she's known as the child of 3 queens. she was birthed by herrah the best, raised by the white lady and trained by hive queen vespa

and vespa is also how she got her needle

[sinful nimbus]

One kingsmould guards the entrance. Entrance still there, hasn't broken down
One kingsmould guards a lever. Level still there, hasn't broken down
Two kingsmoulds guard Path of Pain memory. Memory still there, haven't broken down.
Numerous kingsmoulds guard Pale King. Pale King is dead, they have broken down.

[sage creek]

oh cool, i knew about herrah and the white lady, but i missed the bit about queen vespa. very interesting!

[valid compass]

yes it could be since she isnt fully asleep

[umbral moth]

tbf, it was very vague on if it was still canon whether vespa trained hornet or not since it never showed up in-game but we can now confirm it thanks to silksong

[sacred pike]

OK I gave up, I cannot understand the kingsmould fixation when the entry did not even mention it, but very specifically specified void lol
(The two sentences have a fullstop between them too)

[valid compass]

damn was this a speculation since hollow knight?

[lean temple]

I think it was conscious as she's giving orders to capture Weavers

[heavy gyro]

Just the memory kingsmoulds make sense, why would the others keep defending it if the pale king is dead anyway

[lethal burrow]

more than speculation, it was confirmed as an idea team Cherry had in their heads, but it was never confirmed in the game, so it was unknown if it was scrapped or not

[sinful nimbus]

Its not too deep, Hornet says PK failed at a task he succeeded in

[sacred pike]

I am happy that this is brought into canon proper, really cool a backstory for her

[umbral moth]

yeah!!

[umbral moth]

also yeah, this

[sinful nimbus]

The things they are tasked to protect still exist

[edgy river]

What is this kingsmolds thing about?

[lethal burrow]

You don't wanna know it's a sludge conversation

[valid compass]

wow maybe this was when silksong was just a dlc

[sacred pike]

about the SS journal entry for wingsmould

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet says void can't be fashioned to do someones bidding
Kingsmoulds are void fashioned to do someones bidding
Therefore Hornet's conclusion is incorrect

[foggy fractal]

also all this talk about kingsmoulds
didn't wingsmoulds server their purpose just fine ? what even is their purpose lmao ? for tk and hornet to pogo off of ?

[lean temple]

It's an old concept TC had in mind called daughter of three queens. It was never confirmed until Silksong

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, I doubt it was his bidding for them to float around

[edgy river]

I mean it's probable that that's how PK died than

[sinful nimbus]

Its not

PK would smoke kingsmoulds in combat

[valid compass]

damn

[edgy river]

The void from the kingsmolds gone against him

[lethal burrow]

-# (it is)

[sinful nimbus]

"Nuh uh"

[sacred pike]

tl;dr the person thinks hornet's statement is dumb because kingsmould as a void construct works.
But i think many of us would agree that statement is about void in general, which failed the pale king in the grand scheme of things

[lethal burrow]

Don't give what you can't take

[short zenith]

what is considered a sin?

[novel eagle]

pale king when
dark queen
I think
Whats the opposite of pale

[edgy river]

It might not be combat, just that it hollowed him out slowly and he didn't notice or smth. Seems to happen a bunch in HK. Kind of what happened to the guy in Tower of Love

[short zenith]

like how do you end up in|| the slab?||

[valid compass]

the argument is that void could work on a smaller scale

[novel eagle]

||theres one way being caged the other way jus tprogress in th game until u end up stumbling into it||

[sinful nimbus]

All of PK's children are very skilled and resilient combatants and its presumed PK even trained Pure Vessel with their soul spells, they also all inherited his ability to heal. Not to mention teleporting is a basic soul spell he probably knew, therefore Kingsmoulds would be unable to hurt him

[novel eagle]

"Only a fool believes he can bend the void to his will"
HOrnet be dissing dead people

[lean temple]

Apostasy, heresy, indolence, not being basically a slave for the Citadel, etc

[lethal burrow]

they're being very specific in making it narrow enough, not to include the vessels, but broad enough to include the kingsmoulds and they also have to ignore the King's death by the void, which is practically confirmed.

At this point, I don't think they care about discussion. They just want to be right.

[sinful nimbus]

If he didn't all kill them the moment they rebelled (Which is a baseless hypothetical), he at the very least could've held his own and teleported to safety

[valid compass]

not believing in citadel is a sin, being sick is a sin and i think not being able to sing is also a sin

[novel eagle]

Apostasy?

[sacred pike]

And i dont think we can change their mind about it since they obviously have a concrete opinion and imo they are not being totally open about having a different interpretation if i am to be objective
(as in talking to a brickwall ^ ^")

[short zenith]

ah, is that why we have ||white ward?||

[edgy river]

I think the idea of rebellion is a little odd considering the placement of the kingsmolds in the room as well

[sinful nimbus]

A failed example doesn't mean the other example doesn't exist lmao

[lean temple]

Yep

[novel eagle]

No? whiteward is the place where people experimented onthemselves with silk

[lethal burrow]

are you done

[short zenith]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh

[sinful nimbus]

Void was fashioned to do his bidding in a very explicit manner its not complex

[lethal burrow]

Because if you're done, we can continue and talk about something else

[novel eagle]

they tried to fuse their own selves iwth silk to gin the powers of the weavers

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not bored yet

[edgy river]

If something, it wasn't the kingsmolds body but the void itself inside them that corrupted him in some way

[lethal burrow]

a Pity

[sacred pike]

Whiteward is a F-up place

[valid compass]

nah whiteward is the place where the micro silk surgeries took place to extend the lifespan of bugs for pharloom eternal

[lean temple]

Whiteward was to make themselves immortal. They said even death is a sin in the Citadel iirc

[sinful nimbus]

If you want to start another conversation you're free to do so but covering your ears and going "lalalala I can't hear you and you're arguing in bad faith" isn't really a valuable contribution to the discussion

[lethal burrow]

It was specifically to become immortal, I think

[sacred pike]

did u see the mountainous pile of dead bugs in there

[umbral moth]

in the wingmould entry for silksong, hornet mentions how the pale king is a fool for thinking that someone could fashion void to do their bidding
someone is arguing relentlessly that she's incorrect because the kingsmould ended up being fashioned to do pale king's bidding whilst ignoring that it's entirely likely the kingsmould eventually failed in the longterm because it's implied they killed the pale king in his throne room. also ignoring that the wingmould literally don't seem to function anymore as they just float about nowadays
except the statement in the journal entry was about the void in general, so there's no reason to exclude the vessels which were doomed to fail from the very beginning and are the biggest example of void failing to do his bidding

[sinful nimbus]

Ad hominem

Its also not contrarian its been well known PK hasn't been killed by void for years

[sacred pike]

^the room with the lore item that is

[sinful nimbus]

Kingsmoulds have also been well known for years

[lethal burrow]

Me when I lie

[lethal burrow]

Fallacy fallacy

[sacred pike]

walking on empty vessel shells is one thing, walking on bug corpses sure is something else

[sinful nimbus]

This doesn't apply

[sacred pike]

its fine fren, just move on

[sinful nimbus]

What they said doesn't meaningfully address my argument

[edgy river]

Thanks. I'm a bit more in now and I agree it's not confirmed hornet was right but it's not impossible she is mentioning this specially because she saw PKs ideas of giving void form not working

[short zenith]

Another question: what is the point of travelling|| to the citadel?||
Is it just a religious rite?

[sacred pike]

no need to keep going when the discussion wont go anywhere

[lethal burrow]

i'm just gonna leave and come back when this person has shut up.

I'm sure they'll delude themselves into believing their right and go on and on and on until this channel is completely dead, I'll wait for this conversation to finally be over and then come back

[sinful nimbus]

This conversation comes up daily so you'll be waiting a while

[sacred pike]

I noticed

[valid compass]

lmfao

[lethal burrow]

Character development

[edgy river]

These flew bros got HANDS!!!

[sacred pike]

Thank god we do the right thing killing that fxcker

[nimble vault]

I think so yes
also I don't think you have to spoiler stuff in here

[sinful nimbus]

Pharloom cuisine popping off

[lethal burrow]

It's a pilgrimage

[sacred pike]

And in case ur wondering , if you did not kill moorwing, the barbeque will be smaller

[foggy fractal]

wait a second now you're the #aged pilgrim fan ?
what happened with the exausted pilgrim hm ?

[sinful nimbus]

Exhausted Pilgrim got removed from the bar for drinking too much nectar and starting a fight 😔

[foggy fractal]

ohhh shit bar fight

[short zenith]

ah

[edgy river]

This makes me question. Maybe if u all the 5 flews and go to greymoor that way you don't need to fight moorwing because they kill it while you are sitting up in the caravan

[short zenith]

better question: what does the citadel even do?

[lethal burrow]

A lot

well, what do you mean the citadel like the building space or the organization or the government or the people in it or like what?

[sinful nimbus]

It rules most of the kingdom but its true function was to keep GMS sealed

[lethal burrow]

And are you speaking past tense or current tense?

[ancient dock]

If you don’t kill Moorwing then it a smaller prey they are cooking

[sinful nimbus]

By the time the game has started its controlled by GMS though

[lethal burrow]

Like what it's function used to be or what currently is doing nowadays

[sacred pike]

I dont remember if the fleas can kill moorwing for you (i strongly doubt they would)

[sacred pike]

that too

[lethal burrow]

I think that meat appears if you get vog first too

[edgy river]

Pilgrims are told to go to the citadel without any weapons because if they believe enough they might get there. Is a faith thing

The ones that get to Blasted Steps get dropped into underworks to work there instead, from what I got

[edgy river]

The few that actually make it become rich

[muted rover]

i just got the "ending" for the Silk and Soul

we deadass triggered a third impact (i just started act 3)

[late roost]

when you fight lost garmond in the blasted steps, do you actually free him from that curse or do you end up killing him ?

[lethal burrow]

yeah, the one on the left also appears if they have vog by this point

[valid compass]

its a pretty big conspiracy
the pilgrim propaganda was made by the weavers who had put gms to sleep. they wanted the song to never stop so that gms never wakes up. so the weavers from the shadows controlled the citadel and took in the pilgrims so that they join the choir, so that the song which keeps the gms to sleep never ends.

[sacred pike]

which means you should kill moorwing for the fleas sustenance

[edgy river]

Do u get the smaller one if you don't kill moorwing yourself then?

[lethal burrow]

Sometimes those things can mean the same thing...

[sacred pike]

there are no better reason for killing it

[ancient dock]

If you skip till act 3

[short zenith]

So they just want people to do work for something

[sacred pike]

not 100% sure

[sacred pike]

I think the answer is "both"

[late roost]

well yeah, im more asking if he survives or dies afterwards

[ancient dock]

And moved the caravan to the last point I assume

[lethal burrow]

an end

[sacred pike]

he is most certainly dead

[edgy river]

GMS want people to treat her like a goddess and cherish her like that. Their currency is a physical representation of your faith, so if you are poor you just didn't believe enough

[late roost]

thought so, unfortunate :(

[sacred pike]

based on zaza's dialogue

[edgy river]

This is me I'm always poor in this game

[lean temple]

You are encouraged to give away your money. If anything it's the opposite

[late roost]

ohhh i missed that, damn that hits

[sacred pike]

Probably one of my favorite moment in the game btw

[cedar skiff]

gms does not give a gaf about that i promise

thats the radiance

[muted rover]

while Radiance just wants to screw everyone

[sacred pike]

yeah go back to the spot and play music and you will see 🙁

[cedar skiff]

gms is driven merely by her children

[edgy river]

I guess but at the same time you NEED money for everything in this kingdom so in either way you probably should BELIEVE more

No faith you can't even sit in a bench

[short zenith]

oh zauymn
and great mother silk has always been there?

[late roost]

i just did, might be crying now

[lethal burrow]

she just wants children yeah but also seems like she was the one who did the thing to verdania based off of the interaction between hornet and the green prince in act three

[sacred pike]

Well, religion needs money to sustain after all

[cedar skiff]

thats one of those things with contradicting evidence but it was likely the citadel caste not gms herself

she has no motives to do that either

[valid compass]

hornet also recognizes how weird the currency system is like would having more money make you greedy or faithful

[edgy river]

Isn't the money just made up anyway. Like this money doesn't go anywhere, no one else in the world uses it from what we know. It might as well go to a giant pit after you use it because the value in inherent to your faith, right?

[sacred pike]

another random favorite moment

[cedar skiff]

awwww

[subtle plaza]

so is hornet void

i personally think she is

[lethal burrow]

it's more that you have as much faith as you have currency as opposed to currency as faith.

[sacred pike]

well we dont know much about bug economy, so its difficult to say

[sacred pike]

she is not

[edgy river]

Most likely not

[lethal burrow]

nowhere else is more homely than this

[cedar skiff]

she kinda just wants children but sucks at actually having children and treating them correcty

[sacred pike]

She is not

[lethal burrow]

We don't know what she did to the Weavers besides lying that they were divine in origin, which, even then by her perspective might've been true

[foggy fractal]

if she was you'd think she mentions it like anywhere in act 3

[lethal burrow]

Almost certainly not

[sage cosmos]

Oh.... "||Whiteward||". I understand the name now..

[sacred pike]

Well she outright confirms she is not of void in Hollow Knight too lol

[cedar skiff]

my interpretation is that first sinner found out about phantom being created and was convinced it was a betrayal to the weavers being her daughters

[lethal burrow]

Where is that gotten from?

[sacred pike]

She is simply a half wyrm half weaver demi-god

[lethal burrow]

She's half Weaver don't think about it

[cedar skiff]

well, nowhere explicit, just MY intepretation, as theres no outright confirmation

[lethal burrow]

But I'm asking for any indication not confirmation

[sacred pike]

or like "demi-higher being"

[subtle plaza]

weavers are gms' daughters?

[quartz salmon]

yet she seems to depart with lace in the true ending :(

[lean temple]

That's the point. You should give your all for the Citadel. Everything

[lethal burrow]

she ascended them out of the pharlids

[lean temple]

I wish we could display the Hornet figurine

[sacred pike]

Like a "sacrifice your material needs to prove your faith" kind of mindset?

[lethal burrow]

same

[subtle plaza]

oh is that what the flashback after binding first sinner was about?

[lean temple]

Yes

[edgy river]

What do u mean, what is with the haunting them. She surely didn't NEED to control EVERYONE to get what she wanted

[valid compass]

what was phantom doing inside the tank where we see lace talking to her if you play the needolin

[lethal burrow]

tbh we're not even sure how conscious she is before the fight

[sacred pike]

Heh and "oh btw citadel can take all your material possessions because we have space" xDDD

[subtle plaza]

phantom was like a failed experiment in creating a daughter

[lethal burrow]

but why, in the vat though?

[subtle plaza]

hmmmm... i dont know

[lethal burrow]

like she's in a dragon Ball Z healing pod

[sacred pike]

thats one thing i m not sure as well, but she seems to be conscious enough to react to the garama

[subtle plaza]

maybe thats how gms creates beings out of silk????

[valid compass]

why is she sick with the organ tho

[lethal burrow]

it's very funny how the silk God needs tube machinery to make things out of silk

[subtle plaza]

lmao

[lethal burrow]

she has had a lot of time to practice

[edgy river]

She is enough to specifically haunt bugs near hornet to attack her tho it might be subconscious

In any way, from the dialogue it seems this was happening since before Hornet showed up so she's not doing it JUST to try and capture/kill hornet

[sacred pike]

probably gave her the wrong skillset lol

[slow musk]

it's probably a hobby she took up to kill time since she probably had a lot of that to do

[lethal burrow]

why does lace need a supply of silk but phantom seems fine to be on her own

[valid compass]

so the exhaust from the organ created the mist?

[white panther]

Peeps, quick question. Do we know anything about the origin or reason of the Twisted Bud?

[sacred pike]

well she did seem to be awake enough to command her bugs to go capture hornet

[sacred pike]

not much

[cedar skiff]

oh, sure, i just believe it ties together a bunch of loose ends nicely. we dont really know what exactly made first sinner come to the conclusion that gms is a liar, and it goes well with gms being sort of a control freak. the weavers likely just didnt fit her ideals and she went ahead and tried to make something more... ideal. of course the weavers would feel kinda bitter finding that out when she actively praised them, called them divine and all that. but its interesting that the mask maker refers to the weavers imprisoning gms as them lavishing in their false rule, implying they mightve just gotten power hungry, but anyway thats just my incredibly loose interpretation based on a bunch of assumptions ^_^

[quartz salmon]

shes not fine, shes fading, slowly, thats why she desires death when we fight her

[sacred pike]

Could be related to white lady's statement about her kind need to keep giving birth or something, but its just speculations

[slow musk]

the wraiths specifically were created by phantom herself i believe? they're called 'projections of another's will' or something
as for the mist's origin i'm not exactly sure
she might've made it herself somehow to seclude herself from the world

[valid compass]

i think phantom cannot be replenished with silk like lace can be done. phantom may not be all ragedy cloth but her silk has gone grey

[sacred pike]

and she is also "broken" in appearance

like a prototype of sorts

[subtle plaza]

that projection of another's will could be interpreted as gms' will and the wraiths might be another failed attempt

[valid compass]

phantom is v1 and lace is v2 (ultrakill)

[subtle plaza]

ok no i'm stretching it

[cedar skiff]

phantom was slowly decaying though

[jaunty elm]

would a single animal in hollow knight be like a god or divine beast

[cedar skiff]

she wanted to die by blade rather than slowly fading out of existence

[subtle plaza]

probably

[valid compass]

so whats the silksong.......

damn ok

[subtle plaza]

if a moth could be considered a god then i dont want to imagine like a dog in hk

[sacred pike]

btw, Seth is the true final boss and no one can convince me otherwise

[slow musk]

ok actually i have a ridiculous theory
gms cared a bit for phantom even if she was a failed creation so she surrounded her with the wraiths and kept her in the exhaust organ to protect her
when she turned towards other things phantom began to slowly wither away, at this point she took up organ music to kill time. when we find her, gms has long since forgotten about her

[edgy river]

Yeah, she probably couldn speak but could command the bugs using silk (and by commanding is more like forcing it into their brain)

Só I don't think we can rule out the possibility that the action of haunted bugs is not something she desires

[sacred pike]

the silk is the song we made along the way

[subtle plaza]

interesting theory, definitely plausable

[valid compass]

thank god i clutched flea dodge and scored 98 for the pale oil

[upper copper]

Does the twisted bud ending affect the entirety of pharloom or only the cradle?

[slow musk]

most of gms's behaviours so far have seemed to be quite overprotective so i thought keeping her own creation trapped until she withers in the name of 'protecting' her was something she'd do

[sacred pike]

i actually managed to go pass 98 before seth came to fleatopia, so i m happy to not having to do that again

[sacred pike]

I personally like to think the root pretty much change all the silk into roots = covers entire pharloom

[slow musk]

music is a significant part of the citadel's culture i believe, + the needolin
silk is the force that gms controls

[subtle plaza]

yeah, the three melodies and all that

[valid compass]

i wish there was a bell station or a ventrica to fleatopia. it would be the only place i would stay

[subtle plaza]

i mean, there is a bell station very close to fleatopia

[sacred pike]

same 🙁

[sacred pike]

but its putrified ducts

[valid compass]

so the silksong is hornet learning music

[sacred pike]

[subtle plaza]

fleatopia is in putrified ducts lmao

[sacred pike]

but its putrified ducts

[subtle plaza]

hornet canonically likes fluffy things btw

[sacred pike]

yes she does

[valid compass]

how tf did the caravan moved to pale lake through putrified ducts. are they secretly goated with the sauce and make us get the fleas only to fuck with us?

[open dragon]

Listening to that one psalm i found at the Whiteward feels like im listening a Springlocked audio

[subtle plaza]

they're actually the ultimate pale/higher beings

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/spring-trap-springtrap-spring-lock-springlock-five-nights-at-freddy's-gif-17562208386217251966

[open dragon]

The other Psalms are neat too, you can hear like Citadel soldiers getting ready for like training looks like

[sacred pike]

well, realistically, there are probably other pathways not accessible in game

otherwise how did they squeeze the cart through that tiny tunnel

[slow musk]

ok chat actually im gonna share another ridiculous theory
the twisted bud is what remains of a higher being that has been killed. it was taken by its creations, out of which greyroot is the only survivor. greyroot wants to revive the twisted god by using hornet, who as a half-wyrm is resilient enough to survive being implanted with it, as a vessel. if at this point hornet goes and binds gms, which would normally have her take her place, the twisted god usurps gms's power. why can it do that? well, from what we know of the twisted bud, its main 'thing' is parasitizing other creatures. so of course it can infest another higher being as well

[open dragon]

Whiteward is just so messed up dude like wtf 💀

[valid compass]

like blasted steps is supposed to be this godawful place where pilgrims dies right at the doorstep of the citadel, and the caravan showing up just takes away from all that emotion

[sacred pike]

did u see the corpse room owo

[open dragon]

You mean the bossfight arena? Dont remind me-

[sacred pike]

nope not the boss arena

[open dragon]

I may have bypassed it or havent found it cuz i was zoomin' lol

[sacred pike]

you will reach it eventually, it has one of the lore item in it

[open dragon]

Speaking of, we never see Conductor Romino in the game (as far as im aware), i like to think that the Unravelled is like a corpse of Romino

The once conductor who gave you one of the 3 melodies isn't Romino

[sacred pike]

it's possible

[limpid summit]

That’s what I thought first but there’s a cylinder about a screaming conductor undergoing silk surgery

It’s probably that guy

[valid compass]

oh yeah romino is definitely in the unraveled cuz it was the last surgery

[slow musk]

the citadel was lowk so f'ed in the head if they thought that stuff was worth putting on a cylinder which is meant for storing music

[open dragon]

The way i listened to that Psalm and immediently scrambled to change to a nicer music is funny lol

[upper copper]

I don’t get it, why do ||bell beast, unraveled, and lace 2|| give you silk hearts? Why them specifically? Also what are silk hearts anyway and what do they fulfill in the lore?

[sacred pike]

wait remind me why last surgery = romino?

[limpid summit]

We don’t really know what silk hearts are

I think they might just naturally form with large concentrations of silk

[open dragon]

The Silkhearts cutscenes are interesting ngl

[limpid summit]

Bell Beast is trapped in a ton the Unraveled and Lace are surrounded by it

[valid compass]

for unravled: hornet says that place has so much silk it cannot be cleansed no matter how much effort so it makes sense to have a silk heart

[sacred pike]

Maybe some sort of Weaver memory device

[foggy fractal]

the wiki says that the descrption for that cylinder mentions Conductor Mizello or smth which would suggest it would be this guy
I don't even have the cylinder lmao I never got it let me check

for all I know I could be saying random shit rn

[open dragon]

Yea its Conductor Mizello, poor guy lol

[upper copper]

I feel like there are other bosses that would make sense if they could give you silk hearts

[foggy fractal]

Conductor Romino mentioned once in game and thats it lmao !!!

[valid compass]

the description of the psalm cynlinder says it was the last surgery of the surgeon. and the conductor from which we learn the tune is still sick which implies the conductors couldnt be made immortal and were left to die sick.

[slow musk]

wait, did the whiteward surgeons actually manage to make some citadel members immortal

[valid compass]

the unraveled and whiteward is filled with failed surgeries

[open dragon]

Do the doctors at Whiteward just not have like anesthesia or smth?

[sacred pike]

hmmm well not concrete enough to consider him to be romino still, but i get it

[valid compass]

pharloom eternal cuh, dying is a sin

[sacred pike]

[open dragon]

Listening to the Psalm audio again just...jesus

[slow musk]

i lowk thought they just pursued immortality and failed at finding it

[sacred pike]

I dont like them at all
For some reason all of them creep me out

[open dragon]

If Dying is a sin, i'd be in Omega Hell by now with my first playthrough of Silksong lol

[valid compass]

imagine thats just someone at team cherry eating chips

[tropic arrow]

we know they extended lifespan via silk infusions, which backfired horrendously later on, but immortal seems unlikely. The only one who is seemingly ageless is Seth, who got that from different source.

[valid compass]

also immortality in the worst kind like puppeteering your body even though you have died

[tropic arrow]

make a wish type of thing, yes

[sacred pike]

it probably is xD

[slow musk]

do we know about the source of seth's eternal life orr

[tropic arrow]

[sacred pike]

the only source we have is Nyleth

[tropic arrow]

Nyleth seems most plausible, yes

[slow musk]

oh right
what was nyleth's deal again i forgor
was she a higher being

[sacred pike]

most likely

[tropic arrow]

Not a higher being, from what we can tell

there is no confirmation either way, but I would say there needs to be fairly compelling evidence to claim that X is a higher being

[sacred pike]

Or not? She is powerful regardless

[valid compass]

she is an old power

[slow musk]

tbh she's probably some form of lesser/local deity

[sacred pike]

i think she'd probably be like Unn, "lesser" higher being i.e. not Pale

[tropic arrow]

Also, her heart is 1/3 the power needed to rival the monarch in power, for a single spell. Seeing as the other 2 hearts are not from higher beings, that puts even more doubt into Nyleth being a higher being.

[valid compass]

she got the heart i.e an essence which is able create the local flora and fauna

[tropic arrow]

The Radiance and Nightmare's Heart are not pale beings either, and still not treated as being any lesser than other higher beings.

[valid compass]

and it is a big deal to spawn your own kingdom

[sacred pike]

I do wonder if Radiance is consider Pale

[tropic arrow]

Nyleth is powerful, definetly, but it's pretty doubtful that she was a higher being

[open dragon]

Poor guy

[tropic arrow]

from what we can tell, no

[open dragon]

Like, i think after Karmelita grew old, her entire colony just kinda strayed away from her, yet there are still those who are still loyal to her, including this guy

[valid compass]

the implication of being pale is so vague it might just mean being white

[sacred pike]

yeah thats what i am thinking

[tropic arrow]

I would definetly argue the game makes a distinction and it's more than just one of color, but what, exactly, differentiates them beyond that is unknown

[valid compass]

but radiance is like bright yellow sunlight type thing

[sacred pike]

just no concrete definition it seems

[slow musk]

actually we need some tiers
??? - shade lord
pale beings - gms, pale king, and white lady
greater deities - radiance, nightmare's heart, twisted god?
lesser deities - unn, deities of godseeker's homeland
local deities - nyleth, any others who created their own area

[sacred pike]

shade lord is God of Gods

[slow musk]

we dont really know what twisted god can do so i put it with a '?'

[tropic arrow]

There isn't really any basis for Unn or the gods of thunder and rain being lesser than the rest

[sacred pike]

its the only title it has, really

[slow musk]

ohhh right
tbh it feels kinda like an elder evil in comparison to the other higher beings so it'd make sense if it were far above them

[valid compass]

if white lady is a pale being then i think being pale means being able to resist the void in some form on manner. i know even the pale king cannot swim in the void but the white lady says something along the lines of "... the only way our family can resist that void"

[sacred pike]

And since it seems void exist pretty much everywhere, Shade Lord's influence is just probably unmatched

[tropic arrow]

And really if we wanna get into it, only the silk from GMS is pale. Her actual body is just straight up black, as seen in the Abyss.

[sacred pike]

i though the black was because of void corruption?

[tropic arrow]

No, her head is like that up in the cradle

the white seems to just be silk she spun around herself

[valid compass]

nah she is not corrupted

[slow musk]

imo pale beings are those who influence (or once influenced and are still capable of doing so) an entire land
the white lady sealed herself away to end her own influence upon the land (her hundreds of offspring who would scatter across the world), we don't know if she could be unsealed somehow
the radiance by this logic would've been a pale being before being usurped by the pale king

[valid compass]

by the void. im sure she is very corrupted as a person in general

[sacred pike]

so black body beneath silk?
its difficult to tell when its 2D xD

[tropic arrow]

yes, her body is black

[valid compass]

its her balls

[sacred pike]

i thought by the time we descend the void has affected her and changed her appearance like Lace's

[valid compass]

cant believe lace did a blackface

[open dragon]

I can imagine Yarnaby has a motivational poster saying Trust the Process lol

[sacred pike]

ok now i can see what u meant

she pretty much uhhhh use all her silk to sustain the cocoon

[valid compass]

yarnaby would definetly made bugs eternal if she was up in citadel

do you guys know where hornet mentions about her old parteners who died of old age

[open dragon]

But they threw her away, likely cuz her methods would be considered inhumane or unorthodox

[sacred pike]

i cant stop getting amused by the fact that GMS's "leg" is basically two pins melted into one

it obviously fits but it's just so funny to me for reasons unknown

[lean temple]

Great conchfly hunter notes

[quartz salmon]

apparently if you try to get kidnapped while cursed the parasite lashes out and breaks you free

[lean temple]

That's so cool ngl

[open dragon]

I just absolutely adore Hornet just slaps anyone who gets wayyyy too close to her lmao

[valid compass]

her body is black inside the cocoon
we can also see our body is black inside our cocoon when we strike it
what does this mean for the lore

[sacred pike]

holy, that's new

[tropic arrow]

the only thing is the entry for Conchflies, which mentions none of her partners could match her lifespan

[sacred pike]

nice find

[maiden meteor]

Hornet is full of caffeine

[tropic arrow]

Seeing as GMS came from outside, the inspiration for pins as weapons might very well be her legs, honestly

[maiden meteor]

Pins are also sewing instruments

which fits silk theme

[tropic arrow]

The whole sewing thing was also likely introduced... after she arrived

[sacred pike]

lol imagine you are a god and your follower make weapons based on ur feet

talk about foot fetishes LMAO

[maiden meteor]

I forgot do weavers use pins

[foggy fractal]

wtf

[tropic arrow]

Like yes, the kingdom has "loom" in it's name and all, but it likely wasn't even named that until her arrival

[tropic arrow]

Going off of the Weavers being called the "first children of Pharloom" anyway

[tropic arrow]

First Sinner manipulates some via her silk

[maiden meteor]

I think TC just really like sewing theming

[sacred pike]

we do know she evolved certain spiders into weavers

there is a cutscene in game, forgot which particular one

[lean temple]

Needles too

[tropic arrow]

Widow can't spin her own silk, so she only uses what's in Bellhart by pulling on it and what not

[slow musk]

and specifically quite a small and pathetic species called pharlids iirc

[upper copper]

Wait if we get a godhome equivalent, what would the final boss’s name be? ||LOST GRAND DAUGHTER SILK||

[sacred pike]

yeah those

[lean temple]

First Sinner defeat

[tropic arrow]

which makes it all the more amusing when the Weavers still call others "simple bugs"

[slow musk]

the shade lord imo

[sacred pike]

Total Lost Lace

[foggy fractal]

Even Loster Lace

[tropic arrow]

If we get a godhome equivalent, I would wager the final boss would actually be Absolute Grand Mother Silk

[sacred pike]

RIP Lace

[tropic arrow]

We never fight her at her full might, so it would be cool to see that

[sacred pike]

why not Great Grand Mother Silk

[tropic arrow]

Whatever she ends up being called

Does anyone have all snail shaman dialogue?

They seem to spew out lore like crazy, but they ain't on the wiki

[upper copper]

Absolute grand mother silk ✋ 🕸️ 🤚

[tropic arrow]

by which, I mean the NPC in act 3

Like I didn't know that the coral people controlled half of Pharloom at their peak, until I read the page for Grand Mother Silk

[valid compass]

the name of prime silk would be "Eternal Lace" and we would have the eternal version of bosses

[sacred pike]

i dont even know they have more dialogue than the few convos we have with them + exhausted line

[slow musk]

we need lore docs for this game

[tropic arrow]

I, at least, never saw this line

"Up top of those caves lost to wind and sand rests a crusted old ruler, a once great warrior king. In their prime, they and their order held half of Pharloom under hardened claw. Some bugs relished that strength. Most lived in fear of it."

Or this one:

"Through their march, at the far border of these lowlands, seek the last queen of the ant hunters. We can sense her still... just. In youth, her voice united the wild tribes. Gave them the strength to resist the pale monarch's will... longer than most at least."

And I'd be willing to bet there is one for Nyleth, but I can't find it

[sacred pike]

i think these appear when talking about getting the hearts?

i feel like i have seen them in game already

[tropic arrow]

I didn't, when I was playing

[sacred pike]

hmmmm weird, maybe false memory, or they have some other triggers

[valid compass]

theres this one exchange of dialogues between hornet and the caretaker which basically explains every from gms, weavers, citadel and pilgrimage

[tropic arrow]

Caretaker is on the wiki at least

but the NPC version of shamans in the chapel isn't

Oh nvm. Caretaker doesn't have any dialogue on the wiki. Great.

[sacred pike]

Yeah was gonna say xD

wiki team is taking their time

[quartz plinth]

Is phamton a Vessel?

[tropic arrow]

No

[sacred pike]

No

Silk being like Lace

[quartz plinth]

I see

[slow musk]

no, she's one of the 2 daughters of gms alongside lace
we don't know exactly what happened to phantom but she began to 'unravel' and is really unwell by the time we meet her

[tropic arrow]

It's not unfeasible that a vessel found their way to Pharloom at some point after escaping the abyss, but we don't see any in the game

[quartz plinth]

Was asking because she pretty much is identical to a vessel

[tropic arrow]

well Phantom has a gender, so

[sacred pike]

And she... doesnt really resemble one xD?

[slow musk]

she only... kind of? does? idk unlike lace she's referred to as both 'she' and 'they'

[quartz plinth]

She looks exactly like a vessel what you talking about

[slow musk]

but yes she does have enough gender to disqualify her from being a vessel

[toxic quest]

do we know why gms wanted the weavers/hornet?

[tropic arrow]

people with genders can be, sometimes, referred to as they too

[sacred heath]

she/they boss

[slow musk]

the weavers put her to sleep so that they could rule pharloom i believe

[toxic quest]

so gms is on a sort of revenge quest?

[tropic arrow]

never outright confirmed. Weird to say she needed them for their silk, she is the primal source of silk after all, but it is possible. She may have wanted revenge. Another theory is that she needed them to maintain Lace.

[sacred heath]

theyre referred to as “they” in the hunters journal

[slow musk]

you could say so, yeah
that's my headcanon at least

[toxic quest]

also what was the motivation to start the haunting?

[sacred pike]

have to use a fanart but still they look nothing alike to me xD

[tropic arrow]

take back control of the kingdom

[toxic quest]

ahh ic

[tropic arrow]

judging by the heart dialogue regarding Karmelita, the haunting was something she did way back when she first showed up too

"Through their march, at the far border of these lowlands, seek the last queen of the ant hunters. We can sense her still... just. In youth, her voice united the wild tribes. Gave them the strength to resist the pale monarch's will... longer than most at least."

[quartz plinth]

I don't know, phantom looks alot like one, it gotta mean something...

[quartz plinth]

https://tenor.com/view/james-doakes-james-doakes-sus-face-james-doakes-suspicious-james-doakes-reaction-erik-king-gif-14404252364057104628

[sacred heath]

eh
the mask with the black hair stuff is kinda reminiscent of a vessel’s shell leaking void
but I don’t think it actually means anything

[toxic quest]

did gms like usurp the previous rulers of pharloom?

[quartz plinth]

Maybe we'll know more about the Phantom in the dlc

[toxic quest]

also was the citadel always closed off to most pilgrims or is this a recent thing (sorry for all the questions lol)

[tropic arrow]

she curbstomped the local opposition since there was, to our knowledge, no higher being in Pharloom to oppose her, yes

[sacred pike]

Not to me sorry but I get it xD
The difference are distinct enough to me to not associate them as similar

[sour igloo]

You can also see the mask besides her before the fight starts, so underneath she probably looks exactly like lace

[slow musk]

man that'd be hype tbh
their entire moveset if they were playable would probably be based around cross stitch

[toxic quest]

and then the weavers put her to sleep, then she wakes up and starts the haunting, right?

[sacred pike]

I... want to play as Seth

[left oyster]

When in doubt, everything is Void...

[tropic arrow]

there's a lot of stuff between those two events, but yes

[quartz plinth]

Carmelita should have given us her crest instead of her heart but honestly thats just me

I want a moveset like hers so bad

SORRY sorry, Kaarmelita

[tropic arrow]

you can do pretty much her jump attack, minus spikes, with the beast crest pogo

[slow musk]

i headcanon that phantom's 'hair' used to be white since it's made of silk but it darkened with neglect

[toxic quest]

pharloom religion is a bit confusing to me other than it being super exploitative

[sacred pike]

Seth is cool, and I quite like the sword and board style

[sacred heath]

Hornet is void, lace is void, Phantom is void, is there ANYONE here who ISN’T void?!

[slow musk]

well uh
i'm pretty sure neither grimm nor the radiance are void

[left oyster]

what the fuck

[mossy heron]

birdie

[tropic arrow]

ummmmm

[sacred pike]

yeah wat

[slow musk]

tf is that

[sacred pike]

wrong channel

[mossy heron]

oh mb

[left oyster]

is that even allowed

[quartz plinth]

Congrats you poisoned a whole river to post this in the wrong channel, good job

[sacred pike]

that too

[slow musk]

god fking dammit
quick start posting your text wall silksong theories

[sacred pike]

uhhhh

[mossy heron]

good idea

[sacred pike]

kratt is a perv

wait thats fact

[slow musk]

bro this is canon but ok

[valid compass]

some important lore dialogue

||Have you done it yet, bellringer? Wriggled deep? Discovered the depths of obsession that brought this place so low?
If you speak of this Citadel and its Silk, Caretaker, then yes, I now know the start of it. In the ward down below, I saw it clear, the hollowed husks, and the many torturous implements... machines to instill a bug with thread, that would see their life extended.
Aye! That’s it, in part! But there’s more scale to it than all that. Just think of’em greedily shoving the Silk into their shells, the madness that overcame them, eternal life for mortal bugs! Then think on how long it’s all gone on......The children born of them, and all the pilgrims after... The Silk has seeded deep into this kingdom’s shells, generations deep...No wonder Pharloom’s bugs proved such easy prey for that haunted thread. It had only to seek for itself to reach them.
Ho ho! Now your seein’ it, bellringer! These poor pilgrims, all born bound to the cruel system of our world, now stricken in its new cursed web.You at least are free from it. And free to shake it all up... if’n that’s your choosing.||

[sacred pike]

yeah i know i m just typing the 1st thing out from the top of my head

LOL

[sacred heath]

about to call support on your goofy ass

oh @Support

[sacred pike]

you should, because they didnt even bother deleting it

[sacred heath]

wait what the hell why didnt it work

i have no power here…

[mossy heron]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1250123386948948140/1278866593304019034/melon.gif

[mossy heron]

this works diffrent in this part of town

[left oyster]

Supportgrave doesn't work here...

[tropic arrow]

Ah, didn't see this before

much more explicit confirmation that Whiteward is what resulted in the Haunting

[sacred heath]

fuck shit fuck SHIT FUCK

uh, uh

[mossy heron]

langue

[sacred pike]

lol maybe just @ a mod or something i dunno

[mossy heron]

https://tenor.com/view/well-in-that-case-yo-mama-well-case-gif-14405034452477075435

[toxic quest]

can someone give a short-ish synopsis for pharloom's story?

[valid compass]

it helps so much that hornet is not a mute npc a lot of lore was presented easily

[tropic arrow]

mhm

And it's still muddy/ambigious in many parts

but that's just kinda what we love about HK lore, I suppose

[left oyster]

Anyways I've been designing some prosthetics for HK

[mossy heron]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1248022608390393888/1309163778151022652/togif.gif

[valid compass]

its pretty long to explain

[sacred pike]

GMS arrived at pharloom and took control from the old powers
Made weavers
Weavers put GMS to sleep
GMS caused haunting (i think) and began to wake
Placed start to go to shit

that short enough?

[sacred heath]

@river garnet hey uh moderator I’m supposed to ping you right

[sacred heath]

whoag

[mossy heron]

cant post little birdies these days

[left oyster]

you could also just ping mods like the role

[sacred pike]

i still need to figure out the proper timeline for when haunting began and when exactly did GMS starts to wake up

[tropic arrow]

You need to at least put in, between Weavers putting GMS asleep and the haunting:

the Weavers passed down their rule, seemingly willingly, to the Conductors, who ruled for a time.

[toxic quest]

lol im sort of lost theres a lot of moving pieces it feels like

[sacred pike]

ahh yeah that too

[sacred pike]

yeah it'd be lengthy regardless

[valid compass]

the choir stopped singing at some point and gms is now kinda not asleep

[river garnet]

dealt with, and yes always please ping @ mods

[sacred pike]

TY mod much love

[slow musk]

a pale being called grand mother silk arrives in pharloom and conquers it
she evolves the spider race of weavers from a lesser species called pharlids
at some point here she also creates two 'daughters', artificial constructs from pure silk, these being lace and phantom
the weavers seeking to become more independent put gms to sleep in the 'cradle'
the weavers made, kinda like a deal, with the citadel and let them rule over part of pharloom
gms began to awaken by causing the 'haunting'
hornet is captured by the citadel and arrives in pharloom

[sacred heath]

ok ty!!

[valid compass]

yeah its pretty big though you can start off with that short description

[slow musk]

hooray for mods

[velvet bane]

Grandmother silk is a pale ?

[sacred pike]

Hmmm one thing i found interesting is that, Hallownest was still referred to as the Kingdom of the White Wyrm even after considerable amount of time has passed (as implied)

[quartz salmon]

Yes

[slow musk]

i assume kingdoms are always associated with their pale beings
or something

[quartz salmon]

It can have multiple names

[valid compass]

i vaguely remember something saying about how the white wyrm and the weaver escaped does anyone remember about this or am i making things up

[velvet bane]

Ok thanks I don't know this very important information

[slow musk]

i believe they were talking about hornet? she is the child of a 'white wyrm' and a weaver after all

[sacred pike]

nah i m moreso curious about the fact that its still refer to as such after a long time

[toxic quest]

ok cool wait so how does pharloom religion with like the citadel and pilgrimage and stuff work

[sacred pike]

i wonder if Pharloom/GMS knew Hallownest has fallen as a kingdom

Or its just TC need a fancy name to describe Hallownest for us to understand xD

[quartz salmon]

She might be able to feel the essence of other higher beings and estimate

[valid compass]

lemme copy paste my message

the pilgrim propaganda was made by the weavers who had put gms to sleep. they wanted the song to never stop so that gms never wakes up. so the weavers from the shadows controlled the citadel and took in the pilgrims so that they join the choir, so that the song which keeps the gms to sleep never ends.

[quartz salmon]

The most simple answer is probably true yes

[slow musk]

all i know is that the citadel has uh 3 'castes', also their culture is heavily based around music and is quite ruthless

[sacred pike]

basically Builders, Singers and Nerds

[valid compass]

did the conductors become sick from conducting?

[slow musk]

technically 'guys who design buildings', 'guys who direct the performances of orchestras', and 'guys who hoard lore'

[toxic quest]

corresponding to the three melodies right

[slow musk]

i'm pretty sure the conductors much like irl do not perform themselves

[toxic quest]

so why did they put an elevator to the cradle activated by the three melodies?

[sacred pike]

ahh true

[quartz salmon]

So that a metroidvania protagonist can collect them and fight the final boss

[sacred pike]

Pretty much

[toxic quest]

so theres no good lore reason?

[sacred pike]

there will always be an excessive amount of keys and locks blocking your way

[valid compass]

hmm, well the bronze statues say they require to hear the threefold song for you to ascend and say knowing the threefold song makes you the ultimate religious guy and now you can see god

[slow musk]

i meaaan
as like a theory im making up right now, i assume the weavers wanted a method to return to the cradle if gms ever came close to stirring so that they could rebind her

[sacred pike]

and shortcut that very conveniently lead u back to where u began

[slow musk]

they entrusted this to their allies the citadel but died off/ran off to hallownest before they could do anything

[quartz salmon]

But if you want an in universe explanation it's probably a security system, someone who is proficient in all 3 areas, conducting, building and knowledge can ascend to the cradle

And I assume that would be a weaver

[toxic quest]

well obviously this didnt work

what eventually happened to the weavers?

[sacred pike]

i think dead/exile

[slow musk]

i'm not rlly sure. they maaaay or may not have been backstabbed by the citadel to steal the secrets of silk at some point
either that or some of them left to hallownest, which i believe happened before gms's sealing as they wanted to escape from her control

[toxic quest]

also do we know why gms made the weavers and i guess lace/phantom

[quartz salmon]

They died off
They're all (almost) sterile

Of course there's exceptions like Herrah or the weaver offspring from other lands

[sacred pike]

Hallownest's weaver did eventually "return home", but we dont know what happens to those

[valid compass]

and made it look 'accessible' to everyone to not raise any suspicion? like people know there's a way to meet god but it requires you to learn three songs and i dont think any average pilgrim could survive all that venturing for the three songs

[toxic quest]

i honestly hope dlc gives more info on this

[quartz salmon]

Probably as an attempt at making a perfect obedient daughter (since the weavers were trying to imprison and defy her)

[sacred pike]

dont forget there are the dancers too

[gleaming creek]

Is it possible that the first game's Hunter is in some way related to the weavers? I don't see any connections, but his appearance is suspiciously similar.

[toxic quest]

uhhh its not that accessible theres the cogwork dancers

[sacred pike]

they probably wont even know about the melodies

if they cant go through dancers

[slow musk]

the weavers were her first attempt at making a sapient species which she 'mass-produced' by uplifting from pharlids
lace and phantom as silk constructs were expensive to create and died if she took her attention off them, so she only made the two of them. she (headcanon ahead) put phantom in exhaust organ and surrounded her with the mist to protect her and keep her there. lace was her second attempt and designed to be exceedingly childish to fulfill gms's desire to have children

[valid compass]

true true

[tropic arrow]

it's... not similar?

[toxic quest]

so like the weavers was gms's analog of pale king's intelligence thing

[sacred pike]

probably the six eyes lol

[tropic arrow]

that's not much of a similarity

[sacred pike]

six eyes is the defining feature of weavers so not too far fetch for some to think that way

[slow musk]

yeah, except she also physically modified them in addition to giving them intelligence

[sacred pike]

and afaik weavers appearance seem very varied

[tropic arrow]

I think of their defining feature as the perfectly round bulbous masks and the general body plan, neither of which Hunter really resembles

even if you take the mask off the equation ala Widow, the general body plan isn't similar at all

[toxic quest]

so i get the weavenests but why did the weavers just leave random statues laying around the kingdom

[gleaming creek]

• Skinny, spine-like body.
• Prominent pelvis-like place where the legs are attached
• Thin, needle-like legs
• Six eyes
• Disproportionately large heads

[tropic arrow]

Herrah is the only one that looks even mildly different from the rest

[tropic arrow]

And in this very image we see Hunter has 4 limbs, while Widow has 6

[gleaming creek]

True, but all the other similarities still seem suspicious

[toxic quest]

like the ones u get the silk skills from

[tropic arrow]

Not to mention the size disparity, the difference in the body plan, like Weavers having 4 legs and so on

[foggy fractal]

so what if the hunter was a weaver anyways

[slow musk]

imo the hunter is part of a species from a foreign land that is neither pharloom nor hallownest, a species that is probably also related to spiders. his kind are probably very solitary and find their own lairs in different places, and the hunter found his in greenpath after he left home

[sacred pike]

to be honest, hunter is a weird character

[gleaming creek]

So you believe that weavers and Hunter's species share a common ancestor?

[valid compass]

why is widow, widow
was she together with someone and gms didnt like that and killed her partner? was she crippled for this reason so that she cannot produce silk anymore? why is she still loyal to gms?

[toxic quest]

i've always seen phantom being in the exhaust organ as a sort of exile and the mist as a "natural" buildup of the exhaust

[tropic arrow]

I think the name is just a reference to Black Widows

[valid compass]

the spider?

[sacred pike]

As in he exists only because TC want to have a reason for the journal's existence

[tropic arrow]

yes

[slow musk]

uhh not necessarily, weavers in their current form were uplifted from pharlids which look really different and are non-sapient
but yes they are both spider species which means they are related

[toxic quest]

evolutionarily, all species share a common ancestor, it's just about how recent that ancestor is

[maiden meteor]

Either she was loyal to gms and weavers fucked her up or it was GMS who tortured her into submission

[sacred pike]

well who knows he could be like half-weaver, like Hornet

[slow musk]

that wouldn't really explain the mazelike nature of the mist and the wraiths being 'projections of another's will'
my 2 theories are either gms trapped her there to keep her safe and the wraiths are hers, or phantom secluded herself there and created the mist and wraiths

[valid compass]

it might be that widow and other weavers who stayed in pharloom were punished because weavers escaped, even thought weaver was, and still, and was loyal

[toxic quest]

i mean the mazelike nature could be an approximation of how its really annoying to navigate with thick smoke obscuring everything; im pretty sure the random generation of exits and room juggling and everything is not meant to cleanly represent reality

the wraiths tho yeah

[clear token]

seeing as how true ending confirmed either the godmaster ending or the dream no more ending i hope the 3rd game pulls a full 180 on the silksong formula and lets us play as the original chosen vessel, fully grown and now free of infection with a slower tankier focused gameplay loop and explores how the vessel lives now that its devoid of its old purpose and the father it grew attached to is gone

[sacred pike]

the map will have to be huge

[clear token]

yes exactly

[toxic quest]

this would confirm godmaster bc im pretty sure hk loses its shell in dnm

[valid compass]

i still think the mist was the result of some factory of the citadel releasing unreal amounts of smoke and then some fantasy stuff happened

[clear token]

ah right it does doesnt it

[slow musk]

tbh i'd love that
thk deserves their own happy ending

[clear token]

i agree they werent seen in the true ending along with all the other siblings in the void so its gotta still be out there i hope

[valid compass]

and then the knight starts talking

[toxic quest]

whats the explanation of the weavers just plopping down powerful statues everywhere

[maiden meteor]

THK is chillin with Jiji or smth

maybe playing dodgeball with Ogrim

[honest bough]

which is the true ending in HK?

[sacred pike]

and there's also the problem of sizes
they are bigger than most bugs we have seen

[honest bough]

i js finished act 3

[toxic quest]

based on SS either dnm or etv

[sacred pike]

^

[clear token]

yeah wouldnt that be so cool

[toxic quest]

like surely this cannot have been a good idea

[vivid kernel]

I wonder who was the better parent, PK or GMS 🤔

[clear token]

maybe like a surface based game

[foggy fractal]

would y'all rather dream no more
or embrace the void

[vivid kernel]

embrace the void

[foggy fractal]

I'd rather not dream anymore tbh I would die if I tried to embrace the void

[sacred pike]

both are just as bad

[slow musk]

the places where you find skills? i imagine that those were like shrines made to store information via threads, but by silksong's time most of it has degraded, so hornet repurposes it for her own uses

[gleaming creek]

THK became #1 Zote superfan 🥰

[toxic quest]

what about the dialogue you get tho (like the "daughter of a distant land...")

[sacred pike]

indecisive, since ss true ending gives the implication that both can be true

[slow musk]

imo embrace the void opens up a lot more opportunities for hornet to meet the shade lord, thk, etc.
she met thk once i believe, at the end of the etv cutscene, and they duelled

[clear token]

well either way i wanna get some closure on thk whether that means his own game or a dlc in silksong or whatever i just wanna know what happened to my goat

[toxic quest]

probably wasnt much of a duel with thk being heavily weakened and no longer controlled by rad

[slow musk]

i might be reaching here but i believe gms is influencing the threads to send her own messages to hornet and get her more interested in pharloom to ultimately lure her in

[sacred pike]

i do love to see what happens to them, but I dont think a game is the best way to do it

[vague whale]

aren't those weaver corpses talking to you

[slow musk]

yeah, they were probably just kinda confused and calmed down quickly

[toxic quest]

thats an interesting hypothesis

[valid compass]

embrace the void also implies there's no godhome anymore

btw its the pantheon ending right?

[sacred pike]

embrace the void is pantheon yes

[tropic arrow]

the silk hearts? Nope, those are all Grand Mother Silk

[slow musk]

yeah but godhome was kind of a closed environment
they found all of their gods, the story has no further to go there except if we maybe get into the gods of thunder and rain

[toxic quest]

also if gms wants hornet, then why is lace trying to kill her? is she defying her mom or smth?

[clear token]

theres a lotta juicy lore team cherry could explore if it had its own game cus the nightmare realm still exists and thats connected to dreams

[sacred pike]

Dream No More is vanilla true ending

[tropic arrow]

I suspect she uses "our" even though she is just referring to herself, due to all the minds udner her control via the Haunting

[valid compass]

and dream no more is ending three where we kill normal radiance

[maiden meteor]

it’s funny how THK barely got its mind back and decided to throw hands instantly

[vague whale]

No the things you get ancestral arts from

[toxic quest]

or just like, royal we

[vague whale]

The weavers in them disappear after you bind them

[tropic arrow]

oh yeah, those are Weavers

[toxic quest]

i think hornet is just suspicous of hollow knight and being cautious

[sacred pike]

well its possible that thk aint hostile

[tropic arrow]

I am also pretty sure that the Silk Hearts are the only lines we get directly from GMS, but if anyone knows any other, it would be nice to know

[maiden meteor]

iirc thk was the first to assume battle position

[sacred pike]

personally, i m accepting this common fanart look of thk as headcanon

[maiden meteor]

Bro probably felt like waking up from a terrible hangover

[sacred pike]

most likely xD

[toxic quest]

like lace isnt perfectly "loyal" to gms right

[sacred pike]

rebellious child pretty much

[maiden meteor]

Lace is an angsty tern basically

[clear token]

i dont think thk decided to throw hands i like the idea that he was using his nail as a walking stick and hornet interpretted that as hostile so she put her guard up

[maiden meteor]

desperate for attention and jealous of Hornet

[novel eagle]

the knight more like the kite

[toxic quest]

thats what it looks like to me ig

[novel eagle]

get it because
he flies

[sacred pike]

i.... dont get it

[maiden meteor]

Imagine having like centuries of awful headache

[sacred pike]

who can fly

[vague whale]

who wouldn't be jealous of Hornet tbh

[toxic quest]

this might be controversial but i like gms more than pk in a way because like at least gms sacrifices herself to give lace a chance to live at the very end as opposed to pk who just runs away to his dream and dies

[sacred pike]

Or rather, who doesnt love hornet LOL

(quality fanart i found on the interweb)

[slow musk]

imo that's not controversial
pk was a cowardly loser imo who ran away from the consequences of his actions and was incredibly cruel to most of his children

[sacred pike]

pretty much

[slow musk]

i love how grimmchild is included ^^

[sacred pike]

cant blame hornet for having dad issues lol

[toxic quest]

wait this also means that the weavers were the ones to install all the stupid rosary shit, close the bellways and ventrica, etc right

[gleaming creek]

Yes 😁

[narrow glacier]

Anyone play the Needolin for lost lace?

[sacred pike]

child definitely part of the family lmao

[glass agate]

yall i got softlocked in the|| bilewater arena what do i do||

[maiden meteor]

tbf it depends on interpretation

[timber pond]

The weavers seem Pretty malicious lmao. I nlitteraly every interaction we see them in.

[toxic quest]

yeah fuck this gms was GOATED

[maiden meteor]

if moths dumped Radiance on their own accord them it wouldn’t really be consequences of PK’s actions

[sacred pike]

go get more upgrades if u havent already, you can always go.... back?

[maiden meteor]

but really him being caught up in a really awful situation

[toxic quest]

so the haunting was basically gms trying to take back control?

[slow musk]

they were pretty disdainful towards all other 'lesser' creatures and allied with the incredibly amoral citadel

[maiden meteor]

they didn’t ally with citadel they FOUNDED it

[toxic quest]

and based on like caretaker dialogue bugs were injecting silk into themselves for longevity so that made the haunting easier for gms?

[maiden meteor]

entire Citadel and pilgrimage was a weaver hoax

[slow musk]

OH YEAH IM PRETTY SURE THAT WAS A FACTOR-
the citadel experimented with silk i believe trying to make their kind live forever but they had a lot of failures which can be found in the whiteward

[valid compass]

yes but the citadel existed before gms

[zinc dove]

wait, isn't this from Hallownest????

[silent phoenix]

I have questions

We follow Shakra through basically every area that isn't the Citadel, and it's ipmlied that her master hasnt been there, so that's why shes never in the citadel

Then how the hell does she show up in High Halls to help Hornet out in the 10-wave gauntlet???

[toxic quest]

what does this mean for the hallownest weavers, ive always headcanoned herrah as a "good" character

[slow musk]

welcome to the memory of red.
enjoy your stay, you'll miss it dearly once you're out

[silent phoenix]

doesnt work, sadly....

[zinc dove]

I dont understand what's going on
I'm so lost in the lore

[maiden meteor]

Did it?

[foggy fractal]

this is her memory of Deepnest

[zinc dove]

WHAT

[maiden meteor]

Citadel was created to snare GMS with song

[toxic quest]

😔

[slow musk]

she can show up out of nowhere if you attack her rings so shakra having some sort of ridiculous perceptive abilities allowing her to keep track of hornet even from afar isnt out of the question

[zinc dove]

So she was part of the weavers tribe that lived in Deepnest?

[slow musk]

tbh they did the least evil imo
they just fucked off instead of getting involved in the plan to snare gms

[silent phoenix]

True, but like

What is she even doing in high halls??? And why only show up in the one place where it would be really convenient? xD

Does she just sense Hornet needing help?

[foggy fractal]

yes and Hornet herself is also weaver

[zinc dove]

Also this is peak, I'd put it as pfp but I'd spoil my friends lmao

[toxic quest]

well yeah, herrah was a weaver

[zinc dove]

half weaver half wyrm

[foggy fractal]

yes

[toxic quest]

yeah i mean she also pops in in hunters march so, and by that point shes already done with her quest to find her master

[tropic arrow]

So does anyone have all dialogue for the act 3 snail shamans NPC? They may have some interesting stuff I haven't seen

[zinc dove]

True that one dreamer used to seal away the Hollow Knight

[terse warren]

Guys, do you think there's anything more going on with Old Penitent or is he just a random NPC?

[toxic quest]

do we know who ruled pharloom before gms came in

[tropic arrow]

different rulers

[silent phoenix]

Well, it makes sense because she would be passing by at that point

But Shakra never appears in the citadel before or after that point, right??

[terse warren]

Karmelita, Khaan, Nyleth... plenty of people

[foggy fractal]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fXWZMaeHiBTY1D6P2cuO929M0iXIYTXdeMifmLQ71sA/edit?usp=sharing best I can do for you is all the text in the game

you can press ctrl f to search for their dialogue, just make sure to do it on the document and not on the browser

[silent phoenix]

Green Prince too

[valid compass]

hmm im talking about the establishment like there was the citadel before gms but post gms was when the pilgrim propaganda begin. there's really vague lore about the citadel before gms like that one statue in the underworks which speaks when you play needolin. it wasnt as large and grand like it is now, it could've been a small temple

[tropic arrow]

The coral people, at their peak, controlled half of Pharloom, though

[slow musk]

i love how its copy of copy of

[terse warren]

Green Prince is way more recent

[tropic arrow]

They seem to have been the biggest ones around, back then

[toxic quest]

so like it was more of a conglomerate of independent tribes right

[slow musk]

didn't the green prince and his partner rule over a different place or was their kingdom also within pharloom

[terse warren]

Like, Verdania was still up and kicking by the time the Caste got around

[terse warren]

yeah more or less

[foggy fractal]

we need more copies

[terse warren]

You visit Verdania and you never leave Pharloom so. It was in Pharloom

[foggy fractal]

just a rando me thinks

[slow musk]

ohhhh alr

[toxic quest]

is it a coincidence that cogwork dancers look like green prince, whats the lore behind them

[tropic arrow]

I did indeed find something I hadn't known before, thanks

[valid compass]

there's an entire area about the green prince

[slow musk]

they were modeled after green prince's partner i believe

[tropic arrow]

In the heights of the great wood, nestled deep in its roots, vines and branches, find the one who sowed the first seed. They're the very essence of the place, the nub of it all. Ain't really a bug, to be told, but a powerful presence nonetheless. We'd heard the Citadel once made grudging accord with that creature, sent their servants in reverence, even built a shrine up there somewhere. Maybe it's worth you searching for it?

Seems Nyleth actually survived GMS, and died sometime after the Weavers started ruling

[valid compass]

its actually very sad

[toxic quest]

who made them and why were they guarding the elevator to the cradle?

[terse warren]

I am kinda sus of the "Sisters" he mentions in a dialogue

inb4 he's an overgrown Pharlid that gained sentience

the sentence above is only half joking

[valid compass]

have you been to verdania?

[toxic quest]

no not yet

[maiden meteor]

citadel seemed pretty chill with Nyleth

I mean they built nyleth shrine

[sacred pike]

or maybe meet Green Prince?

[valid compass]

pls explore it you gotta experience it yourself

[maiden meteor]

Nyleth probably kept Shellwood wildlife under control as well

[lucid pasture]

bro seth was literally trying to protect it from citadel 😭

[zinc dove]

Is this Herrah?

[nimble vault]

yes

[maiden meteor]

well it’s post haunting

[valid compass]

its so nice to know that herra was a sweet mother

[lucid pasture]

true actually

[nimble vault]

fr

[tropic arrow]

Yes, the reason I am saying that Nyleth survived GMS is because the Citadel was built after GMS was put to sleep

[lucid pasture]

i replied the wrong thing but it also is true

[foggy fractal]

hmmm

[lucid pasture]

meant to reply to this, true

[tropic arrow]

So she died either under the Weavers' rule, to unknown causes, or even more recently under the conductors' rule, due to unknown causes

[terse warren]

looks like a spider, has the spiky thingy on the sides of head...

[maiden meteor]

Nyleth probably died because its natural lifecycle ended or smth

[foggy fractal]

#noticing

yeah idk whats going on with him tbh

[lucid pasture]

also not really, it could have been an accord between weavers - nyleth from that

[valid compass]

i was so sad when i played the needolin and he didnt showed up

[tropic arrow]

yes... that's what I'm saying...

[zinc dove]

Wait, this is from the Bees region in Hallownest???
I'm so lost

[tropic arrow]

I am saying she survived GMS, because the Citadel was made after GMS was put to sleep

[maiden meteor]

Shellwood is also best-preserved area out of the 4

[tropic arrow]

so if she made a deal with the Citadel, it was either with the Weavers or the Conducotrs

[maiden meteor]

maybe besides Hunter’s March

[foggy fractal]

yes its a memory it doesn't connect to Pharloom

[terse warren]

he also "committed a sin that caused the suffering of many" but considering he believes firmly that the prison is holy he might just be tripping

[zinc dove]

some of the weavers went to Hallownest - Deepnest to escape from GSM right?

[lucid pasture]

i see i didnt understand it
still, everyone survived GMS pre citadel, i think the only one we dont know abt is Khann

[tropic arrow]

Eh, not "everyone"

[terse warren]

or they actually, i don't think the gender is ever stated

[tropic arrow]

Green Prince's lover practically died under her rule
the coral people

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think anyone actively opposed GMS herself

[lucid pasture]

no, green prince was during citadel

[maiden meteor]

beef was likely mostly with Citadel

[lucid pasture]

coral people idk as i said there

[foggy fractal]

seems like it
what did they do that was that bad lmao

[tropic arrow]

You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.

[lucid pasture]

thats not supposed to mean GMS did it directly

[tropic arrow]

I never said GMS personally killed the prince

[toxic quest]

probably not even that bad

[tropic arrow]

I said it happened during her rule

Because that is what is implied

[terse warren]

even during Weavers and Caste, it is always referred to as "Under GMS rule"

[lucid pasture]

I mean it is not supposed to mean she ordered it directly. or through the haunting. it is supposed to mean that with GMS there their only destination was death or something

[foggy fractal]

maybe
they just perceived it as that bad

[lucid pasture]

But they mean this even with GMS sleeping

[terse warren]

Verdania died during the Caste's rule, as they are the one that made the Clockwork bugs

[foggy fractal]

anyway go my all Sherma sprites

[tropic arrow]

I think it's less that they didn't, and more that they couldn't.

She is the only higher being around, so she got to toss around her weight with no real competition

[umbral moth]

why so sideways

[maiden meteor]

Green Prince’s lover died during Citadel period and as far as we know Citadel’s whole purpose was to keep GMS asleep

[tropic arrow]

I interpret that not as GMS pulling strings, and a bit more metaphorical

[terse warren]

definitely

i honestly just hope they have some significance because they're my goat

[valid compass]

https://youtu.be/0VOUbW_gE-Q?si=BIqSTmvaKAGV0lt6 yall saw this? is this cut content or really a scecret ending

[lethal burrow]

ye

[zinc dove]

white palace?

[toxic quest]

yep

[lucid pasture]

also this implies verdania fell beacuse of citadel weaver/conductor rules
The heart of a graceful lord. In its taking I was able to witness his caves and kingdom as once they flourished. A stunning sight.
Unique. All gone... Lost to the pale monarch... and the system to keep her caged.

[umbral moth]

white palace!

[tropic arrow]

who is really ruling here, the one that the entire citadel is built around, to keep it sleeping, or the ones keeping it sleeping? Are you really a ruler in this case? I think this is what Ballador is getting at, when he says that only one monarch's claws ever grasped the kingdom

[terse warren]

it's just cut

[umbral moth]

wingmould is also present

[sour igloo]

Yeah it turns out Strung to Serve is just locked behind one single boolean value

[umbral moth]

that is 100% cut, there's no achievement for it

[tropic arrow]

both, because the Citadel failed to preserve Verdania

[umbral moth]

even twisted child, a secret ending, has an achievement

[lucid pasture]

But citadel already existed when verdania fell for the first place.

[valid compass]

whats the condition though?

[tropic arrow]

but what happened to the prince's partner, is suggested to have happened while GMS was ruling

[zinc dove]

path of pain flashbacks

[lucid pasture]

I wouldn't say so

[lethal burrow]

Where do we know that the citadels whole purpose was to keep her asleep?

[tropic arrow]

Hornet says it, and the suggestion is never contradicted. Her words are intended to be correct.

[maiden meteor]

Mask Maker dialogue

[tropic arrow]

Hornet: The bugs of your land, I have watched them, climbing towards their absolution without the flicker of a thought to what it means.
Aye. But isn't it always such for those snared to serve your higher caste?
Our mortal mob did once act some defiance, unawares maybe, but successful in part, goaded towards it by Weavers' will'n all.
Hornet: You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.
Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[zinc dove]

having goosebumps rn

[maiden meteor]

Hornet: "You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both." Mask Maker: "Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule."

[lucid pasture]

I already talked about it. It is not meant to say its her fault directly, but more so of the entire context, its more likely to be about weavers/conductors trying to keep her caged than anything else. If you take this to mean fell under GMS rule then yes but i wouldnt say so

[valid compass]

was he taken away by the citadel so that they could preserve his dance?

[umbral moth]

cut ending where gms becomes half wyrm sounds scary tho, ngl

[toxic quest]

did the weavers fashion the cogwork dancers and put them in front of the elevator?

[maiden meteor]

Architects did likely

[toxic quest]

ah

[tropic arrow]

And I disagree. I think it suggests this happened under Grand Mother's rule directly.

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think weavers had direct involvement in any of Citadel’s functions

[toxic quest]

they were under the control of the weavers tho right

[lucid pasture]

I don't think theres any way that could happen from what we know from the timeline tho

[solar agate]

So it was discovered Challenge button increase the damage dealt by your needle (at least 1 attack), anyone that can test if Beast Crest taunt increases it further than the normal taunt?

[lethal burrow]

So did the Weavers just incage grandmother silk because they were power hungry? I feel like there has to be more of a reason than that.

[maiden meteor]

Mask Maker dialogue implies that GMS was put asleep since Citadel was conceived for it was main Citadel’s purpose

[toxic quest]

i doubt it but i think it does stack with the bind boost

[tropic arrow]

why not?

[zinc dove]

what did the white lady desire from Hornet?
"I knew what you wanted from me, and the price to achieve it"

[tropic arrow]

Mask Maker dialogue implies the Citadel was constructed after GMS was put to sleep

there may have been something called the Citadel before she was put to sleep, but it would not resemble the Citadel we see and know

[lethal burrow]

to become a hardened soul, capable in body and mind.

Basically "rough childhood to survive the world" type of deal

[maiden meteor]

and Verdania fell during Citadel period

[lucid pasture]

i dont think so

[tropic arrow]

And I argue it is suggested to have happened during Grand Mother's rule, before the Citadel

[tropic arrow]

Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[lethal burrow]

Isn't it only suggested by hornet who wouldn't know such things?

[tropic arrow]

This line only makes sense if the Citadel was made after she was put to sleep

[lucid pasture]

yes? that implies it was created by them to make her sleep

[tropic arrow]

Hornet is never suggested to be wrong at any point

[maiden meteor]

Green Prince’s lover put his soul int cogwork dancers so that citadel would stop messing with verdania

[lucid pasture]

no??

[zinc dove]

Why did the Pale King and Herrah have an offspring?
To defeat / contain GSM?

[tropic arrow]

keep her sleeping, implying she was already put to sleep before this

[tropic arrow]

he never says it was to stop the Citadel specifically, pretty sure

[lucid pasture]

I wouldnt say so

[lethal burrow]

harrah only agreed to be a dreamer if the pale king gave her a child.

Price paid for fair bargain made

[tropic arrow]

I would say so

[lucid pasture]

ok

nothing to do ig lol

[sour igloo]

No idea. The original poster on bilibili said something about not finding any trigger, so they had to force it by going into the code through Unity Explorer and enabling a BoolTest that is set to false by default

[lethal burrow]

I think it shows her bias, she clearly has negative associations when it comes to higher being so it makes sense for her to assume it was grandmother silk

We shouldn't determine if she's right or wrong here by if she's right or wrong on other things because those are different things

[tropic arrow]

sure if you wanna say she is wrong, but there is no evidence in particular that she is wrong

the existence of cogwork dancers doesn't necessitate the Citadel having been constructed

[lethal burrow]

Well, other people have brought up how it seems like it was when the city was around, and therefore when grandmother was asleep

[maiden meteor]

“His whole he gave, in desperate trade to see our own caves left safe.”

[lethal burrow]

aren't the slots that the dancers go into literally part of the citadel though

[tropic arrow]

what part of this says Citadel

what part of it can't be GMS

[maiden meteor]

Whole Cogwork stuff exists within citadel

[jovial trail]

Why would GMS want that guy as a robot

[tropic arrow]

and the Citadel, devised by the Weavers, doesn't resemble their architecture. It was built upon by others after their rule was passed on. These things placement can change

[lethal burrow]

because the time of the machines and the cog core was at the conductors which was at the citadel which was after GMS

[maiden meteor]

literally nothing implies it existed before

[tropic arrow]

Why would it be a static thing that can absolutely never be moved?

[lucid pasture]

that quote from mask maker implies citadel was built to make her asleep to 95% of people who read it
and the cogwork dancers were most definitely made for citadel

[tropic arrow]

It can be read that way, sure, but isn't the way I read it

[lucid pasture]

i mean yes but if thats not how you read it theres nothing we can do in this discussion

[woven stump]

Can someone please tell me what happened to widow exactly?

[lucid pasture]

thats just ambiguous and however you want to interpret it will be the right way unless we get something more obvious lol

[tropic arrow]

we can discuss our viewpoints to help expand them. Hollow Knight lore is such that multiple contradictory interpretations are all valid.

[lucid pasture]

yeah but i think we already said everything that has to be said ig
me personally

we will just be repeating our points

[toxic quest]

does silksong mask maker have any relation to hks

[lethal burrow]

What amount of infrastructure and civilization do you think was around when grandmother was awake?

[lethal burrow]

Same guild, I guess

[tropic arrow]

we have absolutely no clue

we know very little about the time of her rule

[lucid pasture]

yeah

[vivid kernel]

the debate of all time is gonna be this ngl

[toxic quest]

gms icl

[vivid kernel]

GMS's love is very twisted tho

[lethal burrow]

I mean, it seems pretty genuine and normal

[lucid pasture]

honestly pale king actions are probably way worse regardin that but his intentions were well
GMS had somewhat bad intentions and also did bad actions towards her children but somewhat less worse than pale king

[toxic quest]

i mean when push came to shove she was willing to give up everything for her daughter

[vivid kernel]

remember the part where she basically made so lace never grows up and can't live without her silk

[lethal burrow]

I don't know how intentional that was

[vivid kernel]

well ofc, she's good there

[maiden meteor]

Only children PK didn’t kill he was deadbeat to

[lethal burrow]

also lace was either made well grandmother was asleep or while the Weavers were still around. What do you guys think?

[maiden meteor]

so that’s a really low bar to clear

[tropic arrow]

Now I agree that GMS loved Lace, but to say that it wasn't a twisted kind of love is... I mean:

...Better a child spun mad... than none...
...Better a child spun frail... than none...
...Better a child spun pure... than them...
...One to wish our waking...
...From our Silk... A child born loyal...

[lucid pasture]

ive no idea

[vivid kernel]

she saved her kid but that does not redeem her whole actions, im not suggesting a debate on who ruled their kingdom better cuz, no debate PK did manage his kingdom way way better

[hidden crater]

insane monarch who had trillions of kids that got thrown into a pit and left to DIE vs a grandma with 2 kids which one of them tragically passed away in a death battle

[vivid kernel]

GMS is a capitalistic pig unlike PK 😭

[toxic quest]

i mean gms was put to sleep not that long into her rule so this is kinda a moot point

[lethal burrow]

that doesn't read to me like those traits are intentional, but that that's all grandmothers could manage, she couldn't make lace not frail, but better a frail child than no child at all.

[maiden meteor]

GMS also didn’t manage her kingdom at all

[toxic quest]

thats not gms tho

[lucid pasture]

actually reading that doesnt that actually confirm it was made when she was asleep?

[vivid kernel]

who was it made the capital like that tho im curious

[lucid pasture]

"one to wish our waking"

[tropic arrow]

yes

[molten star]

Single mom vs Dad with multiple wivesmates and had children with them

[toxic quest]

the weavers

[maiden meteor]

Weavers

[hidden crater]

if her kid wasnt a complete idiot she would have still been alive by now

[lethal burrow]

again the question is how conscious is grandmother silk when awake

[shrewd hare]

The symbols at ability getting pkaces look alot like herrah, is that herrah or no?

[vivid kernel]

but weavers left iirc, was that after she woke up?

[tropic arrow]

Grand Mother Silk is clearly capable of complex thought and action within her sleep

which may or may not be because of the minds under her control via the Haunting

[lethal burrow]

They are Weavers

[tropic arrow]

I suspect that's why she uses "our" and not "my"

[lucid pasture]

ive no idea. id assume phantom and lace were made early haunting tho

[vivid kernel]

she hated her mom with her whole soul because gms never communicated w her properly, you cant call lace stupid cuz she never got any attention 😭 how's she gonna know gms loves her when gms doesn't tell her that at all

[lethal burrow]

here's a question.

So the Weavers left for what reason? I would assume because the mother started waking?

... or was it because the citadel turned on them?

[toxic quest]

i saw this as more of a "royal we" thing but i guess that makes sense

[vivid kernel]

cuz gms was frying them

[maiden meteor]

Weavers realized GMS containment would fail eventually

[hidden crater]

im not a lore guy but god damn this makes a ton of sense

[shrewd hare]

From herrahs home?

[toxic quest]

didnt the weavers leave a little before or around the time of the sealing of gms

[hidden crater]

mmmmm deep fried weavers 🤤

[lethal burrow]

you've got it backwards.

The Weaver's are from pharloom, some of them fled to hallownest later

[lucid pasture]

i think the transition to the conductors was pacific, so it was either because of gms waking, or some of them were getting sick/weak, i dont remember the exact quote that implied smth like that

[lethal burrow]

then why did some stay?

[silk dirge]

id say there was a split in the weavers some left bc they didnt want anything to do with what was going on and some remained

[shrewd hare]

So some ppl are friendly towards hornet bcus it looks like the fled weavet herrah?

[zinc dove]

First time I see the word Hallownest in silksong

[shrewd hare]

And its obvius the abilities are meant for hornet

[lethal burrow]

rephrase

[shrewd hare]

Huh