sk-lore

[silk dirge]

like pharloom is pretty low bar

[ancient sinew]

I’m not sure it makes any amount of sense to criticize PK as a father

[wild zinc]

I mean if this bitch suddenly showed up to my kingdom and made black tendrils come out of nowhere I would be mad too

[sinful nimbus]

What was he supposed to do, kill himself for his actions? Boy do I have news for you...

[boreal veldt]

He just left it to rot. Still a horrible way to go, and hornet had to take responsibility

[sinful nimbus]

No she didn't

[tiny socket]

Hornets judgement towards fathers is likely skewed by past experience

[boreal veldt]

She did basically

[wild zinc]

Hornet choose to guard hallownest of her own free will

She could’ve just done anything else she wanted

[ancient sinew]

Flawless? No, of course not. But he was a good and well intentioned guy who did what he could to better the lives of those around him

[sacred heath]

that is his DAUGHTER dawg and he couldn’t be fucked to care even a little?

[wild zinc]

True tbh

[vague whale]

it definitely is

[lethal burrow]

idk that hollow knight is just more

"I'm going to say immortality is bad to cope because I'm mortal and going to die"

Give it a bit more credit than that

[ancient sinew]

She was a GIFT to HERRAH it was a BARGAIN

[foggy fractal]

hmmm pk vs crawfather who was the better dad

[wild zinc]

Pk was just put into a hard situation I mean I’m sure no one here could fix a zombie apocalypse

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King haters are all anti-intellectual nutcases who hate the fact that he uplifted the minds of everyone around him

[boreal veldt]

…

[timber pond]

Nah PK could have stuck around instead of Hiding away

[ancient sinew]

And do what exactly

[sinful nimbus]

For what purpose

[ancient sinew]

The kingdom had already fallen

[wild zinc]

He literally tried everything at that point

[spark valve]

beacon envy

[wild zinc]

He can’t rule over zombies

[sacred heath]

that does not justify it even a single bit and you know it

[silk dirge]

i dont hate pk but treating him like he was super good is crazy

[lethal burrow]

I think he's not a great person, but he did his best in the situation that was given to him.

He isn't mega Satan, but he's also not a saint

[silk dirge]

yeah exactly

[tiny socket]

Is sat crawfather, but it seems his teachings included groups of three jumping at the enemy while the entire rest of the horde just sits back and watches

[vague whale]

Yeah

[ancient sinew]

Ok so you either can’t read or are deliberately misconstruing me so I’m not going to bother with this

[silk dirge]

like hallownest had a lot of inequalities

[wild zinc]

I like the architecture in city of tears that’s why I stan the pale king

[timber pond]

To see how it ends. Instead of Crawling up on his throne and dying? Going out like a man? Who cares if you see an end unaviodable, meet that end with a posture befiting of your stature.

[silk dirge]

they arent as insane as pharloom

[boreal veldt]

Pale king isn’t evil, he did the best he could

But this dosent negate the fact he killed thousands of infants

[silk dirge]

but they existed

[lethal burrow]

You said it was about accepting nature and things being eternal is against nature and therefore bad

[sinful nimbus]

Well his kingdom was fairly prosperous and there's no standout bad acts that the dude did, idk what the issue is

[vague whale]

Exactly yup

[sinful nimbus]

Abortion is cool and based though

[boreal veldt]

Nice contrast actually. In HK pale king sacrificed his children for his kingdom, yet GMS does the opposite

[ancient sinew]

This is really just a media literacy moment the main themes of the game literally slap you in the face and you still seem to have missed the memo so nothing I say is likely to convince you

[vague whale]

that's also true though

[silk dirge]

i dont think using the pale king as an example of abortion is a good idea lol

[vague whale]

PK didn't abort though

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah he did

[honest spade]

i give up. I do not have enough braincells to spare in this argument where you have already made your mind that the game's addition of void is bad and it should have been a completely unrelated game from HK, should have done its own thing, with only the words "Hollow Knight" and "Hornet" being the things common between the two games.

i have said what i needed to.

[boreal veldt]

Bro

[sinful nimbus]

Vessels died in the eggs

[sinful nimbus]

I win thanks

[boreal veldt]

Swear they fell

[golden olive]

vessels died after leaving the eggs

[wild zinc]

Also it’s anti pale king propaganda that the king deliberately made the radiance made

[honest spade]

/leave

[boreal veldt]

Or he pushed them off

[wild zinc]

The moth tribe abandoned her of their volition

[vague whale]

jeez dude

[honest spade]

socks left the chat

[boreal veldt]

You can legit see them fall down during the abyss cutscene

[ancient sinew]

Like yeah in the context of HK the idea of living forever is presented as a bad thing idk what to tell you

[lethal burrow]

his real biggest mistake was being incorrect in thinking his plan had a chance to succeed in the first place.

It was a drastic desperate shot in the dark to try to save his dying world, shame it never had a chance, but he hardly could've known.

[vague whale]

yup

[silk dirge]

yeah

[spark valve]

'to rail against nature is folly'
'better an end'
etc

[sinful nimbus]

What its not like the message was a meaningful contribution to the discussion I needed to respond seriously to

[boreal veldt]

Tbh he didn’t know jack shit, anything abt the abyss either, he thought having the vessels be born down there would make em hollow but literally none were hollow

[ancient sinew]

Already mentioned those

[lucid pasture]

i think OG HK deals with the thematics of letting the kingdom go and it agrees with it but it posits that after all the shit that happened in the kingdom. it posits that at the situation were at that moment. after pale king killed 10000 vessels. and shit.
silksong thematics are contrarian to what happened BEFORE what were seeing on hollow knight itself. it is about stopping before we have to reach the place where we have to accept death.

[lethal burrow]

Like in the hypothetical that his plan actually did work do you think it would've been better for the rains to take over everything or for him to kill the thousands of kids and have his kingdom be fine?

[vague whale]

your messages aren't, yeah

[wheat locust]

no? why would they be out of their eggs in the Ancient Basin if they died in their eggs? They all died on the climb up or he pushed them, but I think they mostly died from failing the climb

[silk dirge]

hypothetically yeah but thats not reality

[spark valve]

well yes but hollow knight fans don't read as we've established

[honest spade]

https://tenor.com/view/congratulations-evangelion-neon-genesis-evangelion-misato-shinji-gif-4044037582598310616

[foggy fractal]

yeah I barely got the story of Silksong I was lowkey just fighting the bosses

[lethal burrow]

ye obviously the radiance still screwed things up so the question shifts too if it's better for the radiance to just have everything under her control forever presumably or for one of the endings to the game to happen.

[tiny socket]

Me when the silksong lore channel exclusively contains hollow knight lore discussion

[foggy fractal]

I need godmaster dlc NOW !

[silk dirge]

ok lets see your score on the college board advanced placement english language and composition test then /j

[spark valve]

because they got voided and then popped out of the eggs as vessels

[foggy fractal]

hello Tammo

[ancient sinew]

Is this a serious question

[lethal burrow]

you can't talk about silk song in isolation.

The hollow Knight channel is just for avoiding silk spoilers. This might as well be the entire hollow night silk song universe channel, for discussing everything in them

[teal finch]

godmaster dlc but they make you do a 50 question lore exam to unlock it

[lethal burrow]

You're not obligated to answer any questions

[foggy fractal]

FUCK
I would lowkey just cheat

[ancient sinew]

Uh… ok

[vague whale]

Based as hell

[silk dirge]

better be multiple choice

[boreal veldt]

Lowkey the moth tribe fault.

[ancient sinew]

Not lowkey that much is explicitly stated

[sinful nimbus]

Moths ruined everything and are all evil much like how the weavers ruined everything

[ancient sinew]

Seer blames her Tribe for what happened and says they were fickle

[silk dirge]

this is an objective fact confirmed irl

[ancient sinew]

They literally tried to kill Rad

[wild zinc]

Exactly

[lethal burrow]

somewould argue the radiance is at fault for creating a people that could abandon her and then getting mad at them.

[boreal veldt]

Pale king is fine with other mfs being independent like mantis tribe they just fucked everything up

[boreal veldt]

Yeah radiance is still at fault

[ancient sinew]

PK would absolutely have been chill with Rad

[pure belfry]

Is Grandma a "Pale Being" in the same sense that the Pale King is a "Pale Being"? Does Pale Being refer to the monarch types who enter a kingdom, hold powerful influence over its bugs, and rule over them?

[silk dirge]

if you are wondering why weavers are portrayed as evil,

[boreal veldt]

I’ve seen people say radiance didn’t control the infection or some shit

[ancient sinew]

It was the moths who didn’t want her around anymore

[lucid pasture]

hollow knight DNM ending might be seen as good in the moment we are seeing the game itself but it is not good if we take the full on context of things, its just insanely tragic lol

[vague whale]

AAAAAA

[boreal veldt]

She defo knew what she was doing based on myla dream dialogue

[tiny socket]

My pet spiders larger than yours haha

[lethal burrow]

A pale being seems to just be a higher being that's pale.

[timber pond]

Calling a persecuted Group of Pepole evil isnt a good look. They just did what they did to survive my guys💀

[silk dirge]

if i lived in australia and saw one of those im grabbing my shit and running

[ancient sinew]

LMAO?

[lethal burrow]

It's not to do with not liking her anymore it's that they moth and found a new shiny light.

It wasn't even malicious. Going to the pale King was never about her.

[wheat locust]

aah so a good amount of the vessels down there would've died from the fact they couldn't handle(i can't think of a better word rn) the void within and had as a result died?
Either way I do think I get what you're sayin and I honestly hadn't taken that into account

[foggy fractal]

why was there no scorpion enemies in blasted steps smh another TC fumble

[keen axle]

Same

[ancient sinew]

@sinful nimbus do you know about the guy who claimed Rad represented indigenous peoples

deja vu

[pure belfry]

wasn't every boss in Godhome a Higher Being? Isn't that the idea behind Godseeker? They're attuning to "Higher Beings"?

[spark valve]

no

[ancient sinew]

It was malicious they literally tried to kill her

[sinful nimbus]

maybe?

[silk dirge]

thats a wild comparison but to say theres no parallels between colonialism and hallownest would be wrong

[sinful nimbus]

I guess my question would be which one

[lucid pasture]

hot take: the reason The Knight actually somewhat succeeds in his plans is because he never was void and he didnt pretend to be void. the reason all the other vessels failed was because they were actually obsessed with the idea that they were void with no feelings, which is something PK probably influenced too

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway weavers made the citadel which is absolutely evil they weren't exactly persecuted up until the Conductors came along

[ancient sinew]

The Moths actively tried to erase Radiance from their collective memory an act Seer describes as the only death that matters they were going to deny her a place to exist

If that isn’t malicious I’m not sure what is

[sinful nimbus]

There aren't though

Colonialism is very loaded language

[silk dirge]

i mean there are a few

[lethal burrow]

no the god seekers are just desperate and have very low standards for what constitutes of God

[silk dirge]

yeah that is true

[lethal burrow]

I don't know about that one chief

[timber pond]

The Moths represented the Radiance the Radiance did not represent the Moths. Her power operates on who remembers. If a people exist in a land before others And lived there from primordial times, They are indigenous.

[foggy fractal]

this reminds me of a post saying that the Hornet cursed witch crest questline was symbolic of abortion

[silk dirge]

but like take the bugs of deepnest

[sinful nimbus]

Like if you say that word everyone pictures European colonialism which is night and day with PK

[silk dirge]

they clearly werent happy about living under a foreign ruler

like its obviouslt very far off

[ancient sinew]

There are any number of reasons why they may have preferred PK to Rad, and that’s fine, but trying to kill the god who created them is what makes them bad in this context

[silk dirge]

but to say theres no similarities whatsoever

[sinful nimbus]

They didn't live under one so

Deepnest was independent

[silk dirge]

yeah and they tried to ward off the pale kings rule

[ancient sinew]

Rad is said to only have survived due to “hushed whispers of faith”, she was being erased

[lethal burrow]

I don't think they actively tried to forget her. I think they just... eventually forgot her.

I think you're pulling this out of smoke and vapour waves my man

[ancient sinew]

Rad architecture was destroyed or moved where it couldn’t be accessed easily

[timber pond]

They didn't "try" to. Radiance was dying because she was being forgotten.

[silk dirge]

like they clearly werent super happy about the existence of hallownest from my understanding

[ancient sinew]

because they tried to forget her

[sinful nimbus]

In the sense that they said "Yeah no man get out" its not like they were out here scrapping with them

[modern hollow]

Radiance should have made lore tablets that explained her existence so nobody forgot her smh

[lethal burrow]

ye some people still worshipped her

[pure belfry]

just fanboys constantly looking for the next player to root for? "welp, that one's dead. I'm a [Insert boss] fan now!

[silk dirge]

yeah thats what im saying

[lethal burrow]

sort of lmao

[silk dirge]

the parallel isnt super strong but to say there isnt any at all would be wrong imo

[ancient sinew]

And those who did were hushed, implying they were forced to practice their faith in secret out of fear of persecution or whatever

[silk dirge]

like failed tramway was not a good idea at all

[timber pond]

No they didnt, its implied to have happened over a long period of time. Seer implies this. Its like How one would forget The original Depiction of Dionysus.

[lethal burrow]

I think hushed in this context just means quiet or secret, and I don't think that necessarily implies there was a prosecution that's a giant giant leap

[modern hollow]

I mean if you named your tramway the failed tramway of course it would not work /s

[sinful nimbus]

Calling failed tramway a colonialism parallel is 🥴 Its a train track running through wilderness

[silk dirge]

clearly it was not just wilderness tho

[teal finch]

deepnest is wilderness?

[sinful nimbus]

Why would it need to be quiet unless to be kept a secret

[silk dirge]

otherwise it wouldnt have failed

[sinful nimbus]

It was attacked by dirtcarvers which are wild animals

[spark valve]

He um uh um built something

[modern hollow]

Deepest is the most untouched area u can get in hallownest apart from like howling cliffs

[ancient sinew]

Why did they need to do it in secret, and why was archicture depicting her moved to where it couldn’t easily be seen

[lethal burrow]

Are you assuming the statue wasn't just built on the crown?

[foggy fractal]

who ? THE PALE KING ???

[ancient sinew]

The Rad Shrine being built on the crown isn’t the issue here

[timber pond]

Because They would be rejected by wider society? not necessarily malicious. Just trying to survive and adapt to the times.

[teal drift]

I mean closest thing to the tram would be the continental railroad in america which was def a big colonial undertaking. But I dont think that was the intentional parallel

[silk dirge]

this brings up the whole what is a human and what is an animal in bug world

[ancient sinew]

It’s that they had to practice their faith well out of view

[silk dirge]

its not a super strong parallel like i said but you can definitely see it

[sinful nimbus]

Dirtcarvers are pretty clearly animals

[lethal burrow]

because the moth tribe moved to worshipping the pale king.

Sure, there's the theoretical possibility It was not internal, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be.

why would seer view it as a big sin of her people if there was some other obvious fault?

[sinful nimbus]

idk why wider society would do that

[ancient sinew]

Also there is NO Rad architecture anywhere in RG implying it was moved or destroyed

[lethal burrow]

You shouldn't have brought up the architecture being moved if you didn't want me to question what you were even talking about

[silk dirge]

also still building train tracks through wilderness is still environmental destruction

[teal drift]

this is one of the funniest parts of lore. Imagine a society where there's multiple sapient species and also multiple species that bares a massive resemblance to the sapient species.

[sinful nimbus]

Bro has not seen the fences

[modern hollow]

Yk i always wondered what the bugs even ate like do they just eat other bugs

[ancient sinew]

Those are incredibly vague though

[silk dirge]

like pale king was still disturbing the environment of dirtcarvers

[lethal burrow]

I believe your subjective interpretation of what you think is the implication is not so clean clear and cut as you perhaps believe

[timber pond]

Because its just what happens? Individuals Try to persecute dominate and erase to be top dog. The pale beings themselves are like this with eachother.

[silk dirge]

thats a bit of a different thing but to say the dirtcarvers were in the wrong would be wild to say

they were protecting their habitat

[modern hollow]

We dont talk bout them

[teal drift]

environmental terrorist pale king

[modern hollow]

But like do they eat leaves or something

[sinful nimbus]

The hallownest pale beings were married 💔

[modern hollow]

Ik they drink nectar as evidenced by the halfway house

[spark valve]

he's a literal tree hugger

[silk dirge]

like pale king clearly disregarded anything that could be an obstacle to his plans

[ancient sinew]

The implication is very much that the Moth Tribe actively tried to erase her from memory, and even if it happened passively over the course of generations that isn’t much better as they KNEW that forgetting about her would be a death sentence

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway building stuff through wilderness is kinda a necessary evil you just have to go through it in a sustainable way

[pure belfry]

I don't think Howling Cliffs is technically part of Hallownest is it? "Beyond this point you enter the land of king and creator. Step across this threshold and obey our laws". I think Howling Cliffs technically qualifies as being in the wastes.

[timber pond]

Radiance is Also a Pale Being. I meant if they are Vying For Rule from eachother, then it would create a problem.

[steep ridge]

radiance is not a pale being

[lethal burrow]

implications at subjective and I disagree and I think you're making logical leaps that aren't justified.

[spark valve]

people just sayin shit huh

[ancient sinew]

The hushed whispers of faith line very much suggests that there was a reason for them needing to worship her in secret

[modern hollow]

Well they're talking about the official town borders not necessarily the outer limits

[sinful nimbus]

I'm assuming you mean higher being

[lethal burrow]

To be able to classify things we need criteria for the thing even is

[timber pond]

She Meets like all of the Qualifiers though.

[steep ridge]

nowhere is it implied she is a pale being she is not described like the actual pale beings

[silk dirge]

thats true but that doesnt mean dirtcarvers werent in the right

[modern hollow]

Like you can have a city limits but a general nation limits goes beyond that

[main osprey]

I made it to an area I don't understand why it exists in the world?

I'm at the Organ part of the map by mistake after going through the mists

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance was the only higher being that was adversarial to the other ones

[steep ridge]

yeah

[silk dirge]

like he couldnt have atleast like given them wildlife crossings

[lethal burrow]

what the fuck is a pale being?

[main osprey]

It feels very mechanical, but like why?

[acoustic vault]

BIG SPOILER MUST GET THE ACT 3 ENDING
||so after finishiing act 3 and watching the little ghost saving hornet cutscene would that mean the cannon ending is little ghost becoming shade lord is that correct?||

[sinful nimbus]

Well yeah they are wild animals

[silk dirge]

like the game to me implies a lot failed tramway was not a good idea

[ancient sinew]

WL 😜

[steep ridge]

the only pale beings we have are pale king white lady and grand mother silk iirc

[silk dirge]

pale king clearly didnt do a ceqa review

[timber pond]

White ,can Dominate other bugs and Have significant powers Withor against the void.

[foggy fractal]

I'm gonna be a pale being next lowkey

[pure belfry]

I always took Pale Being to mean the monarch types

[teal drift]

this channel should be labeled semantic-discussion

[sinful nimbus]

Soul higher beings it seems

[modern hollow]

I always thought they just shared something in common with the affinity for life itself

[timber pond]

She is as old as the Ancient Civilization though and calls it the enemy. Idk, she could be a pale being and we dont ahve context.

[silk dirge]

someone the other day was arguing radiance was a pale being and i was like

does she look pale to you

[steep ridge]

yeah the main connective tissue between the 3 pale beings vs standard higher beings is their dominion over large groups of bugs

[modern hollow]

She's more of a light beige being

[lethal burrow]

oh boy, should we bring up what constitutes purity when it comes to the hollow knight and if it was ever really hollow? I hear that's a productive discussion

[silk dirge]

radiance does not look pale in the slightest

[teal drift]

radiance's magic operates on completely different principles to the 3 beings we've seen so far

[timber pond]

She does though

[steep ridge]

like super large

[vague whale]

people love being wrong ig

[silk dirge]

id love to see what you think is pale

[modern hollow]

Frankly what I want to know is the origin of lifeblood still

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance never calls the ac an enemy she calls the knight the enemy

[teal drift]

I love that silksong finally stopped the "the knight is hollow" discourse to some extent

[modern hollow]

Like we get some clues yes but do we know exactly who or what made it

[silk dirge]

bc radiance has no colors that arent greyed out on her

[vague whale]

I also want to know more about lifeblood

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance is pale vro 🥀

[sleek lily]

I love Silksong

[lethal burrow]

I just think a pale being isn't a type of thing it's just a physical description.

It is a (higher) being that is pale

[steep ridge]

radiance is white that means she's a pale being

[timber pond]

If you compare her and GMS thier colors don't visually look that different. if you mean visually.

[modern hollow]

The alchemist said he got it from a really salty lake or something right

[ancient sinew]

This might be one of my favorite misinterpreted lines because you can interpret it one of four ways

[teal drift]

My guess: there was a god of lifeblood who dreamed lifeblood into existence, and she got thrown into the void in the same manner GMS did. No great evidence but it explains what we do know.

[silk dirge]

"colors dont look visually different"

[timber pond]

Yeah The yellow is from Her halo.

[ancient sinew]

“ancient enemy” is commonly thought to refer to either TK (and more generally Vessels), PK, Void, or AC. Ofc only two of those are actually reasonable

[modern hollow]

She had jaundice

[silk dirge]

even without it

gms clearly looks more "pale"

[lethal burrow]

We should get an image of the pale king in here, just for comparison

[sinful nimbus]

shoutout to people inserting AC into random pieces of dialogue for no reason. gotta be one of my favorite genders

[timber pond]

They are both Reasonably Pale though. Radiance is like a minor bit more grey.

[modern hollow]

Why her head halo built like Gabriel ultrakill

[sinful nimbus]

i ❤️ mask maker

[steep ridge]

I think I'm stupid what is ac referring to

[sinful nimbus]

air conditioning (ancient civilization)

[pure belfry]

talking actual Silksong lore for a moment and not just general HK-universe lore, did Grandma create Pharloom and the Weavers? Isn't it implied Pharloom wasn't always so grand? I brought this up the other day with the dialogue from the Pious Isamor statue and that Pharloom was probably once a much humbler place. Someone even brought up it started as a shrine or something and that's why the currency is Rosaries.

[ancient sinew]

”ancient caste” (it’s actually Hallownest) 🥀

[steep ridge]

oh okay

[mighty void]

wait
so is gms pale or not im seeing mixed inputs but i do remember it being said in game she's a pale being tho idk where, prob the caretaker

[ancient sinew]

What the hell is the mask makers’ deal

[silk dirge]

but anyways no pale being only exists in the dream realm

[lethal burrow]

She ascended the Weavers from a specific enemy in the game that I can't remember the name of

[steep ridge]

gms made the weavers from the pharlid enemies

[ancient sinew]

Why does TC want to make them seem important they don’t actually do anything

[steep ridge]

she used her silk to create the weavers from the pharlids

[sinful nimbus]

I once saw a new user who came into the lore channel and immediately started this argument it was funny

[ancient sinew]

”my contract” bro what contract shut up

[mighty void]

so first sinner is the first born weaver?

[steep ridge]

this is shown in first sinner ending iirc

[pure belfry]

the blade spiders? Isn't that what we see with First Sinner?

[silk dirge]

probably thats the point

gms took random bugs and "elevated" them

[lethal burrow]

ye, she basically ascended the Weavers out of those things.

[boreal veldt]

Yeah, that’s why first sinner was locked up, she find out and rebelled

[steep ridge]

maybe? I don't think anything implies that beyond the origin thing but that could just be weaver origins in general

[mighty void]

mask makers have a special kind of sight that lets them peer into a bugs insides
kinda like what Eva has

[boreal veldt]

Gms essentially lied about them being her daughters

[steep ridge]

yeah

[mighty void]

that's why their eyes look like that

[modern hollow]

Would they recognize the cursed root parasite thingy like Eva does

[lethal burrow]

Nothing suggests that, but it's not impossible

[silk dirge]

anyways regardless of that we dont know what defines a pale being so unless its explicitly confirmed its not a pale being

[mighty void]

maybe?

I haven't talked to him while infected but i have an infected save rn so i could go check

[ancient sinew]

The Mask Makers might be some of my most hated characters lorewise because adding a cryptic NPC who serves no purpose other than to yap about nonsense that has no relevance to anyone is one of the indie tropes of all time

[mighty void]

but i think that special sight is different to the one eva has
it let's them make appropriate masks

[silk dirge]

L take of all time

[steep ridge]

we do have a lot of hints towards their nature that seems to separate them from normal higher beings due to how the people that know a lot about stuff talk about hornet

[sinful nimbus]

"no relevance to anyone" 🥀

[boreal veldt]

Abt that infection, Pavo says many with the child went to shellwood and never came back

Is it just greyroot tryna be reborn using you as a vessel or is it smth else

[steep ridge]

mask makers the goats especially in silksong

[golden olive]

W take of all time they are worthless in BOTH FUCKING GAMES

[sinful nimbus]

First game mask maker was clearly talking about the beacon and infection

[mighty void]

Greyroot is most likely just a devout follower

[vague whale]

coolest thing ever
"this sucks actually"

[teal finch]

whao whoa whoa ss mask maker is literally the guy who explicitly says the weavers made the citadel

[steep ridge]

saying the big lore characters are worthless in the lore channel

[mighty void]

the twisted bud is the rebirth of a god most likely

[lethal burrow]

it'll be very funny if you could get the exact dialogue

[mighty void]

so the infected ending is probably by far the worst ending

[vague whale]

Mask Makers are dope

[ancient sinew]

There are a few things he says that are important but most of it is incoherent yap

[lethal burrow]

Someone isn't very friendly to people who are born without faces

[silk dirge]

but anyways pale beings seem to be able to manipulate soul which radiance cant do bc shes a dream god so her element is essence

[steep ridge]

I mean it's already by far the worst ending it doesn't need that rebirth of a god thing or whatever you're saying

[teal drift]

mask maker completely changing our view of the lore with one line

[golden olive]

how 💀

[silk dirge]

dont ask me about the dream nail giving you soul thats just a silly game mechanic without any lore explanation i think

[pure belfry]

speaking of mask maker, why does Hornet knock his mask off and say she "Had a desire to hear him lucid"?

[mighty void]

is gms a pale being or not i remember caretaker said it but that was my first playthrough

[teal drift]

greyroot ending > weaver queen ending imo

[ancient sinew]

What is their actual job

[steep ridge]

if it's the one I'm thinking of yeah that's crazy

[lethal burrow]

I think there's some sort of makers of masks. I'm pretty sure.

[modern hollow]

Dream essence is just the soul of your mind or something idk

[golden olive]

WHATS THE LINE

[teal drift]

the weavers creating the citadel one yeah

[steep ridge]

at least hornet isn't dead in weaver queen

[mighty void]

prob cuz the mask probably contains their special sight in a way

[silk dirge]

she is explicitly confirmed to be one multiple times

[ancient sinew]

And what does creating masks accomplish

[teal drift]

different mask = different personality; no mask = "original personality"

[steep ridge]

the weavers really were the ones to be super fucking greedy lol

[teal finch]

just in case people legit havent seen it here but

Hornet: You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.

Mask Maker: Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[mighty void]

I KNEW CUZ A GUY ON SS DISCUSSION KEPT SAYING SHE ISNT 😭

[ancient sinew]

Because the dialogue about needing a mask to exist etc is figurative yap

[mighty void]

i just didn't feel like seaching up dialogue that confirms it

[sinful nimbus]

mfw the mask making organization, the relic seeking organization, and the steel city organization all happen to show up in the same two kingdoms 😭

[golden olive]

meh

[mighty void]

WICKED MENTION

[ancient sinew]

Apparently they’re contracted to do this by an unknown party and know a bunch of shit

[steep ridge]

everything's happening in pharloom and hallownest fuck all the other kingdoms

[mighty void]

what if they are like aunts and they go where there's juicy drama and gossip

[modern hollow]

We dont know what's going on there cuz we dont see anything from there

[teal drift]

the fact that a massive part of the fanbase attributes the citadel's formation and behavior to GMS (including myself at one point) indicates this line is a huge deal

[mighty void]

tyyyy time to be petty

[lethal burrow]

that's like saying just because there are companies from America and the Netherlands that operate in France that everything is happening in France

[lucid pasture]

a being pale not a pale being obviously!!!

[wheat locust]

I always thought of using the dream nail as slicing a cut into the beings very essence, hence why you see their thoughts and get soul along with it, it doesnt damage their physical body but it does damage to them as a being in some way

[ancient sinew]

Me showing up to the dying kingdom only having to walk through a crowd of relic seekers steelhearts grimmkin mask maker and mister mushroom

[golden olive]

well we have everbloom and le'mer

[steep ridge]

grand mother silk taking over the citadel and using the citadel caste to slaughter the weavers and their descendants seems a bit more justified now (still not justified)

[teal drift]

GMS is the hero of the story tbh, if you ignore the haunting.

[silk dirge]

hallownest seems to be missing a chapter of the clawmaiden choir clan https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1413148343051485275/1418708883157024898/SPOILER_image.png?ex=68cf1b1c&is=68cdc99c&hm=940201e34b966a434efd130e22d621690ea30e206ea4f0cf89e3c4ea9542f543&=&format=webp&quality=lossless

[steep ridge]

if you ignore everything that she did she's the hero

[silk dirge]

someone called them that once and now i cant stop thinking or unseeing it

[modern hollow]

The real hero is sherma

[mighty void]

btw can we even talk about the cut ending cinematic or nah

[teal drift]

there's an argument the haunting is A: unconscious or B: justified

[steep ridge]

the one where hornet looks like gms?

[mighty void]

like sure it prob doesn't mean anything but it's still interesting to ponder

[mighty void]

yeah that one

[modern hollow]

Don't remember a cut ending

[golden olive]

the haunting was definitely conscious

[silver spire]

GUYS I JUST GOT TRUE ENDING

[pure belfry]

I don't understand specifics but if the Weavers are "evil" then is the bad ending where Hornet binds Grandma's power essentially her embracing that part of her nature rather than rejecting it and becoming the next GMS?

[silver spire]

OML OML OML SO MUCH LOREEEEEEEEEE

[steep ridge]

idk I think forcing people to keep fighting for you even after death is pretty bad

[lucid pasture]

i mean yeah what do you think did you look at the kingdom lol

[mighty void]

weavers aren't inherently evil
just thirsty for power by nature

[silk dirge]

its implied thats more pale being to want to dominate a kingdom

[teal drift]

she was eepy and just waking up

[sinful nimbus]

Why did TC make inherently power hungry races kinda weird

[pure belfry]

that makes more sense

[mighty void]

it was a deadly combo of her weavers side need for power and her pale side's need for control

[lucid pasture]

i read your message qrongly sorry

[steep ridge]

there's no real "evil" in this series, every "villain" in these games has some justification

[tiny socket]

The real hero of the story is the architect who put three paid temporary benches in that one room in underworks

[teal drift]

GMS description says she was "just stirring" so she could be somewhat unconsciously reaching out with the haunting

[sinful nimbus]

radiance and gms 🥀

[steep ridge]

that's exactly who I'm referring to

[mighty void]

architects are capitalist by nature

[teal drift]

GMS is like 100x more justified than the radiance. The radiance is just an elite tier hater.

[steep ridge]

they're bad they're evil but they have a reason they aren't inherently evil

[silk dirge]

you could ask also what did team cherry mean by this https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1413148343051485275/1418708883157024898/SPOILER_image.png?ex=68cf1b1c&is=68cdc99c&hm=940201e34b966a434efd130e22d621690ea30e206ea4f0cf89e3c4ea9542f543&=&format=webp&quality=lossless

iykyk

[mighty void]

she's a god tbh what's evil for us is probably different to her but that's just semantics what she did was fucked up

[steep ridge]

gms being 100x more justified doesn't make her justified lol

[teal drift]

i mean insects absolutely have hierarchies and desires to uphold or fill their role in those hierarchies.

[boreal veldt]

Idk man, remember the organ chamber dialogue, where we find out phantom is lace sister and she laments how they were made to fail, I bet lace also resents gms for neglection of siblings as well

[foggy fractal]

HMMMMMM #NOTICING

[boreal veldt]

I mean better then radiance

[steep ridge]

just MORE justified than the desperation of radiance

[lucid pasture]

just like humans...

[boreal veldt]

But like she’s defo an ass still

[golden olive]

i meannnn true but i think the fact she was specifically locating weavers and sending citadwellers after them makes it hard to believe she wasn't fully aware of what she was doing (if thats what u mean by unconscious)

[boreal veldt]

Is there anyone in hk who’s a good parent 🥀

[mighty void]

if you think about it her kingdom had slavery and capitalism

ofc she started tweaking out

[vague whale]

mantis

[tiny socket]

Crawfather?

[silk dirge]

gms after that half weaver she sent a group out looking shows up in her room, wakes her up, and send her to the void

[tiny socket]

Or huntress perhaps

[golden olive]

mantis??

[teal drift]

I think the exact degree of agency vs automaticity vs weakness that GMS has at any point in the story (besides the end of act 3) is unclear.

[vague whale]

THE STAGGGGG

[steep ridge]

do we have a good idea of what the citadel was like under the weavers and what exactly the timeline with the haunting is

[mighty void]

Radiance was just bitching about being forgotten

[boreal veldt]

Yeah she works

[tiny socket]

Bell beast

[silk dirge]

EYRA

[lucid pasture]

BELL BEAST

[silk dirge]

HOW DARE YOU NOT THINK OF EYRA

[lucid pasture]

or eyra

[boreal veldt]

Damn I forgot bro 😔

[mighty void]

wait are there more bell beast or did aira mitose

[lethal burrow]

who

[silk dirge]

did you reach act 3

[steep ridge]

considering basically every arena in the citadel begins with her silk being shot into the ground and her screaming I think she's pretty autonomous

[lucid pasture]

thats what hornst says calling bell beast lol

[silk dirge]

bell beast

[mighty void]

yes i know she has children but i didn't see their dad

[lethal burrow]

oh lmao

[mighty void]

so either he went to get the milk or aira mitosed

[silk dirge]

probably the former

[lucid pasture]

huntress lowk a good parent she let her children kill her ❤️

[teal drift]

given that silk is like an extension of her body, you could frame this as an immune system fighting off something trying to kill it

[silk dirge]

probably the dad got eaten by bell eater or some shit

[teal finch]

that one huntress sprite is so fucked up

[boreal veldt]

Erm she’s tryna avoid that 😭

[mighty void]

skill issue

[tiny socket]

Isn’t the whole point of the quest to prevent that?

[teal drift]

and to me a primal scream doesn't exactly scream sentience

[golden olive]

like, what the citadel was like before the citadel caste took over?

[teal finch]

u can fail this

[lethal burrow]

I always hear an a at the start of it, so Aeyra

Æeyra if you will.

[boreal veldt]

Tbf she wants to see her children grow up that’s fair

[lucid pasture]

yes but jf you dont do the qhest they do that

[steep ridge]

maybe? but the haunting seems pretty determined to kill hornet specifically

like they're dangerous to everyone but they are very dangerous to hornet

[silk dirge]

fuck this half weaver in particular

[tiny socket]

The quest is mandatory, as I cannot survive without the nail extender

[teal drift]

which is a bit weird since GMS seemed to want to capture her alive. As I said, her sentience and motives are super ambiguous.

[boreal veldt]

Btw who tortured widow, ripping off her mask and making her own silk useless by lodging needles into her spine is crazy work

[lucid pasture]

lol

[teal drift]

But yes the haunted people do seem to have particular beef with Hornet.

[mighty void]

wait how did we not see the second bell beast if the whole void fiasco caused the bell beasts predator to wake up???

[steep ridge]

probably grand mother silk as revenge for what the weavers did

well grand mother silk USING the citadel caste as proxies

[teal drift]

its only in act 3 where the haunted people start aggro-ing on everyone else just as much as hornet

[modern hollow]

Prolly the whiteward considering the similar needles

[tiny socket]

Speaking of needles, was fourth chorus reanimated by the haunting?

[mighty void]

have we been using a pregnant woman as our method of transport this entire time???

[steep ridge]

ah yeah I was misremembering

[silver spire]

💀 probably

[golden olive]

its weird that she would do that tho cuz all she really wants is silk

[silk dirge]

oh yeah why does fourth chorus wake up

bros just like "oh yeah you have balloon now its death time"

[teal drift]

my argument isnt necessarily trying to prove her innocence, it's to prove the ambiguity. Why did GMS order hornet taken alive but then have the haunting try to kill her at every turn?

[steep ridge]

fourth chorus had that pin in it right?

[teal drift]

https://tenor.com/view/juror-8-said-im-just-saying-a-coincidence-is-possible-12-angry-men-twelve-angry-men-juror-8-juror-eight-gif-2866849152582775259

[mighty void]

actually wait let me get this straight
gms brought us to pharloom right?

[sinful nimbus]

FC has visible strings iirc

[steep ridge]

that pin was from seamstress

[tiny socket]

Ok

[steep ridge]

I mean not confirmed but very implied

[teal drift]

we think? Or at least I think?

[mighty void]

but like
how did her strings reach that far

[boreal veldt]

Yeah

[mighty void]

they can't even reach weavenest

[tiny socket]

What did seamstress do to get fc sent after her?

[boreal veldt]

Hornet tells seamstress they are after her silk so it’s gotta be

[teal drift]

her stringes were inside the people already

[sinful nimbus]

She was fine in the cage but now that she is running around in the kingdom killing citadel goons left and right she's a nuisance

[steep ridge]

well there's the whole thing with the whiteward and citadel caste having silk in their bodies

[boreal veldt]

Also if u give the relic to the bellhart women it says the soldiers were given orders to capture hornet

[silk dirge]

also how does hornet break out of the cage when she gets sent to the slab

[mighty void]

yeah but severed so i doubt she could control them through that right?

[silk dirge]

its also a rune cage and i dont see a fly anywhere

[sinful nimbus]

They don't make em like they used to

[teal drift]

she built different, or someone disabled the rune cage.

[mighty void]

i mean she's a god maybe that's enough to control them

[sinful nimbus]

Its probably a weaker rune that can't handle pure wyrm weaver might

[teal drift]

also possible the runes were weaker

[steep ridge]

I'm mostly answering the question of range

[modern hollow]

She can also break the runes off the first sinner cage

[silk dirge]

it could also be hornet is more aware of whats going on and resists the rune cage

bc it seems she was in some sort of trance when she gets captured the first time

[teal finch]

just a crack theory but stuff like this makes me think the order to take hornet wasnt even GMS (at least, not directly) and it was the citadel bugs generally wanting more silk that made them seek out the weavers

like if it was a GMS order why is it written

[mighty void]

nono you have a good point maybe she used the silk in their bodies to control them
we can see in the whiteward that string inside them def can move

[teal drift]

haunted people can venture out of pharloom and still be haunted, they have the silk inside of them so GMS doesn't need to maintain control over long distances like she would if she were trying to possess people without silk inside of them

[teal finch]

coudlnt she just have zoomed the order into their brains with her haunting silk

[steep ridge]

caretaker explicitly confirms this after visiting whiteward for the first time

the silk only had to seek itself out for the haunting

[teal drift]

also guys who do we think did the silk in the opening cutscene when Hornet escapes? Do we think it was hornet sheself or an outside force?

[teal finch]

lace

[mighty void]

kinda like a lizard looking for it's severed tail

[boreal veldt]

Lace

[steep ridge]

if that was grand mother silk all this shit gets more confusing lol

[teal drift]

I agree that makes the most sense probably. She def did the butterfly

[steep ridge]

yeah it was probably lace

[mighty void]

most likely lace to defy hwr mother even more

[silk dirge]

i am kinda curious tho how were the envoys operating

[mighty void]

damn Lace was a hater

[silk dirge]

no way gms silk extends that far

[steep ridge]

grand mother silk freeing hornet then sending everyone after her to kill her

[void smelt]

What she was trying to do here?

[wary plover]

Wtf is nameless town, I accidentally came into a weird spot really high up in pharloom

[teal drift]

I dont think she needs to extend, i think she just needs to inpuit a command and the haunting carrie sthe rest.

[mighty void]

we just said this
the silk inside them

[steep ridge]

the citadel caste all have silk in their bodies inherently

the whiteward infected generations with that silk

[tiny socket]

I’m sticking with my personal theory that the butterfly was a weaver soul that didn’t want hornet to share the fate

[teal drift]

Also hornets capture seems to have some degree of nonGMS sentience to it based on the fact that there are choral commandments discussing it.

[gray obsidian]

Yall

[teal drift]

So it's possible she gave the order, and the bugs left and carried out the task with silk enhanced strength.

[mighty void]

oh shit i forgot to get all choral commandments

[steep ridge]

well those choral commandents are definitely post haunting

[mighty void]

weird how that isn't required for 100%

[lucid pasture]

wdym, kill her

[steep ridge]

yeah thinking this is pretty close to what happened

[vague whale]

how does that even work, anyways

[silk dirge]

wouldnt it have been silly if hornet somehow allied with freed thk post godhome ending and the envoys got shredded by pure vessel

[gray obsidian]

D’OGH WHY YOU LITTLE-

[teal drift]

hornet does say that the people who attacked her moved with a singular mind though, so I feel like they were haunted. Not sure.

[mighty void]

wait guys what if
those guards seek out weavers to capture even after the haunting
because it's not rare for bugs to carry out their mission after the haunting

[steep ridge]

they infused bugs with silk, and they had children which carried over that infused silk

[silk dirge]

i just like imagining silly scenarios like this for fun

[vague whale]

Yeah but how did they pass silk down to their kids

[silk dirge]

same way microplastics get passed down

[steep ridge]

those children had children and so on, and that's how the haunting got such a strong grip on pharloom

[teal drift]

I mean tbf Team Cherry confirmed sealed siblings is the canon ending to HK so they probably just captured sleeping hornet and she dreamed the rest of it.

[gray obsidian]

Doflamingos weird organ regen thing google it

[mighty void]

by putting silk inside of them artificially to extend their life

[steep ridge]

truth nuke

[mighty void]

but what abt the act 3 ending with the vessels?

[teal drift]

that was THK not the vessels ❤️

[vague whale]

Yeah but microplastics are way different than (relatively speaking) big ol strings inside ya

[teal drift]

sorry im being silly

[mighty void]

she made some really fucked up headcanons on her head

[silk dirge]

strings can be made of plastic

[steep ridge]

well the silk was infused into their shells

[mighty void]

also where the fuck is hollow knight now that i think abt it

[silk dirge]

what if silk was plastic this entire time

[steep ridge]

basically became a part of their dna

[mighty void]

it's name is in the title but we can't even see it

[vague whale]

I'm aware of that part that's not my question lol

[teal drift]

Magic seems to be kinda heritable. Breeding seems to produce more of any magic that is involved in the parents, regardless of conservation of energy.

[steep ridge]

thk is chilling in abyss

[mighty void]

they just repeated the process on their kids

[tiny socket]

I dislike that they added the godhome ending cliffhanger and didn’t resolve it in ss

[vague whale]

no

[steep ridge]

they repeated the process on multiple generations until they didn't need to anymore

[teal drift]

they should have included a conspicuously large and distracting sibling in the ending cutscene to represent THK

[mighty void]

probably

[gray obsidian]

Goin buck wild in hallownest

[spiral cairn]

i'd say they did kind of

[lucid pasture]

they put silk in their waters

[vague whale]

At some point they didn't need to actually do the process anymore and I'm asking why

[silk dirge]

theyre turning the frogs silked

[mighty void]

it could also be likely that HK didn't even fight Hornet or that Hornet slayed it like the rest of the vessels to feee it

[steep ridge]

because the silk had already been run so deep into the bugs

[tiny socket]

There’s no evidence for either, which is what I mean by not resolved

[teal drift]

if you turned the eyes of two people blue via gene manipulation and then bred those 2, the kid would have blue eyes. That's how I think of it anyways.

[mighty void]

also is respawning even canon on either games?

[vague whale]

yes but again. how do you pass silk down to children

[vague whale]

but it's not genes ?? it's strings!! in their bodies!!

[steep ridge]

the silk was basically in their dna

[timber pond]

This is my one gripe. I Want to know what happens to him. Would have been fine if i saw him in the void with the others.

[teal drift]

it becomes entangled in them

[tiny socket]

The silk is made of soul isn’t it

[steep ridge]

it was so intrinsically connected to them it's basically a part of their very essence now

[teal drift]

its magic it doesn't really follow conservation of energy/mass

[mighty void]

how do bugs even reproduce anyway

[teal drift]

also yes silk is soul, so the kid's soul would probably become silkified

[steep ridge]

don't wanna think about that

[silk dirge]

yeah this is silly bug world

[tiny socket]

Well you see, when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much

[teal drift]

do we see any genitals?

[mighty void]

GMS silk is prob magical rather than natural like Hornet's

[vague whale]

okay so the answer is just "it's magic silk don't think about it too much"

[teal drift]

i need to sleep

[silk dirge]

why would you ask this

[teal drift]

genuine curiousity if team cherry ever did it. We get a lot of butts ig.

[silk dirge]

genuinely why 😭

[teal drift]

it's more like "it's magic so its heritable"

[gray obsidian]

yknow when you like pry open wood and its filled with termites? I imagine its like that but silk

[mighty void]

tho it's likely Hornet uses soul to generate more silk

[steep ridge]

this is how termites are in hollow knight now

[tiny socket]

Do you get silk from hitting the nameless town bugs?

[silk dirge]

i mean do morticians count /j

[vague whale]

what

[teal drift]

what about the red bellbeast.

[mighty void]

the ones in the surface?
yes iirc

so she def uses soul to generate her own silk

[silk dirge]

||the scissor dudes in whiteward||

[gray obsidian]

In a choral commandment the pale king is referred to as the white wyrm which implies the existence of a blackwyrm

[silk dirge]

why did i spoiler that my muscle memory is actually stupid

[mighty void]

since these bugs are unaffected by the haunting

[steep ridge]

isn't this stated somewhere in game

[teal drift]

tbh now that i think about it, a lot of them probably lay eggs, no?

[vague whale]

yeah I'm aware of their existence but I don't get the joke

[spring ruin]

yeah you still do even though they release no silk

[vague whale]

wait. Whiteward HRT probably bangin

[mighty void]

no but the bugs in the surface generate silk when hit so we don't need any text on it

[silk dirge]

ok i probably shouldnt continue with this but look at them 😭

[gray obsidian]

WAIT A MINUTE

[silk dirge]

oh fuck nah im staying away from that

i dont want gms cursed hrt

[mighty void]

girl they gonna hit you with a dose that is gonna have you screaming like that one psalm cylinder

[gray obsidian]

YALL IM ONTO SOMETHINGG

[silk dirge]

what did team cherry mean when they added that

[vague whale]

I have?? What are you talking about 😭

[mighty void]

they meant to say that the citadel is the average day in Los Angeles

[silk dirge]

i should probably just shut up 😭

if you see it you see it

[teal drift]

Discussing the blackwyrm is like trying to analyze the Wow signal. It happened once and its probably meaningless.

[steep ridge]

I haven't fully listened to that one psalm cylinder should I be scared

[vague whale]

baaaased.

[mighty void]

oh yeah the black wyrm exists

[silk dirge]

its like <bug language sounds>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[timber pond]

BlackWyrm Might Be one of "The Masters" of the Steel City

[vague whale]

You don't wanna get on that Pale Being sauce?

[teal drift]

the idea of a blackwyrm appears once in all of HK and silksong combined, so there's not much motion with it imo

[silk dirge]

theres also that one psalm cylinder thats literally like https://tenor.com/view/1984-gif-19260546

[spring ruin]

am I tripping or did it mention the blackwyrm in one of the commandments next to the cages in the cradle

[steep ridge]

it's only in white defenders hunter's journal entry right

[timber pond]

Dont remember

[teal drift]

honesting infusing yourself with silk sounds fire. You can still die but you're young forever, and you get to be controlled by a god after you die.

[silk dirge]

i want to live my life independently i dont want to live under control of gms

[mighty void]

steel soul assassins are just nosy aunts that go wherever drama is

[vague whale]

exactly where do I get THAT transition

[vague whale]

true but...

[timber pond]

No there is no Blackwyrm in the entire script

[mighty void]

do y'all think we'll get a steel soul assassin dlc a greyroot dlc or both?

[vague whale]

both

[mighty void]

greyroot and her cult are def lore relevant

[teal drift]

steel soul assassins are attracted to the aura farming that doing a steelsoul run entails

[mighty void]

like hella that's a whole new god of Pharloom

[spring ruin]

I would love a dlc about that cooky witch chick

[vague whale]

True

[mighty void]

aura chasers if you will

[steep ridge]

speaking of greyroot I'm sick of seeing people be so obtuse whenever someone mentions the possibility of witch crest being an abortion metaphor

[timber pond]

Steel BEcause Sharpe needs to exist in some form cause hes a Backer chracter.

[teal drift]

I feel like... greyroot ending and lore might never be elaborated on. I think having it remain completely random would be in character for Team Cherry.

[mighty void]

I WAS LITERALLY ABOUT TO SAY THIS

[steep ridge]

like it's not that much of a stretch to say it MIGHT be saying something

[spring ruin]

the parasite is still inside hornet she can just “control” it now

[mighty void]

oh yeah he is

[lethal burrow]

She's the witch of the Woods

[mighty void]

like cmon someone puts a child inside Hornet that weakens her and she needs to seek out an exiled doctor to pull it out?

[teal drift]

I'm not sure if you guys have noticed this, but Team Cherry sometimes enjoys being vague and a bit mean spirited in their storytelling. Including a comically bad ending without any elaboration completely checks out and is in fact kinda hilarious.

[steep ridge]

I think it's pretty cool, besides silksong already has some commentary on stuff like zealotry and capitalism

[mighty void]

not only that Greyroot fucking dipped (or killed herself im not sure, she prob fed herself to the child)

[silk dirge]

roll the image

[lucid pasture]

i mean it kinda is but at the same time its looks like just for the funnies theres not much to it

[timber pond]

Its..... a parasite dawg, idk if you want to stick to that metaphor😭

[mighty void]

the twisted bud is called many times a child

by Greyroot mainly

[vague whale]

parasites and children are very similar things

[timber pond]

by the witch.....

[teal drift]

not to start anything too controversial, but are fetuses not just parasites in a very literal sense

[steep ridge]

yeah

[mighty void]

yeah pretty much

[silk dirge]

this applies to humans until they graduate high school

[spring ruin]

they’re scientifically considered parasites

[steep ridge]

the twisted bud just looks like a young greyroot and she constantly refers to the whole thing about it as a birth and rebirth

[mighty void]

it's true...

[silk dirge]

i acted like a parasite in high school for sure

[vague whale]

yeah

[teal drift]

We need to send children to the mines again

[steep ridge]

guys I think this is a metaphor

[mighty void]

btw unrelated but who do y'all think killed twisted bud in it's previous life
GMS or Lace?

[silk dirge]

minor and miner sound the same for a reason is all im saying

[vague whale]

A metaphor for what

[timber pond]

What happened to children being good and joyful things to have. I think this parasite idea is very a unconformable and demonic thought process to follow. 😔

[steep ridge]

I don't know if it was killed in a previous life

[vague whale]

dude what

[mighty void]

fuck them kids

[teal drift]

also doesn't greyroot turn into a solid mass of root when you return to her hut?

[steep ridge]

considering greyroot seems fine lol

[steep ridge]

yeah

[lucid pasture]

again it is probably a metaphor but even if it is does it say anything meaningful. like do you get anything out of viewing it as an abortion metaphor. i dont think theres much to think about regarding that besides "its funny"

[mighty void]

this whole process is called a "rebirth"

[steep ridge]

probably specifically of greyroot

[mighty void]

so this being prob on it's dying breath laid an egg as a foundation for it's rebirth

[steep ridge]

fym funny lol

[teal drift]

Kids are awesome imo but start off as quite literally parasites.

[ionic palm]

My theory is that it's an egg of whatever the final form of the Twisted Bud is supposed to be

[steep ridge]

nothing about it is funny

[mighty void]

then the twisted bud could be her own child? but she fed herself to it

[spring ruin]

idk if ur talking about greyroot but i bet she just puts her life essence into the parasite since something similar happens in the cursed ending, with hornet and grandma basically becoming an egg for the little bastard

[vague whale]

Kids are inherently neutral and growing one inside of you is a very similar process to hosting parasites

[mighty void]

yeah greyroot kidnapped a bunch of bugs to feed to the child and she even fed herself to it

honestly personally i love kids they are so cute but holy shir can they be mean

[steep ridge]

fun discussions going on in ss lore

[lucid pasture]

i think the baby sounds on menu are funny and the abortion cutscene is kinda funny in how out of place to the rest of the game it is. dont focus on FUNNY word too much though i jusf meant like, even if it is an abortion metaphor i dont think it matters with how id doesnt really do almost anything with it

[timber pond]

More like disturbing.

[silk dirge]

kids are cool until they go into middle school and then they become evil

can confirm i was the same way

[teal drift]

anyone have any thoughts on gilly's father

[vague whale]

wdym

[steep ridge]

okay yeah I get that just the best word you saw in this scenario

[mighty void]

i was really relaxed in middle school then got so mean around highschool for no reason

[steep ridge]

baby sounds in the menu ARE very funny though I agree

[mighty void]

now i just come out as mean spirited but that's prob just the autism

[muted lantern]

So are weavers immortal? Or are the ones in hallownest distant descendants

[teal drift]

baby sound on the menu had me going crazy because i genuinely didnt know what was making it

I think theyre immortal or incredibly long lived

[mighty void]

prob just long living

[timber pond]

I just think viewing life in that way is Disturbing.

[silk dirge]

i mean hornet isnt immortal likely

[teal drift]

or theyve made themselves immortal with silk magic

[silk dirge]

nothing is immortal in hk universe

[mighty void]

what's go lil bro crying so much damn bro is DESPERATE for it's rebirty

[teal drift]

functionally immortal

[vague whale]

Viewing life in what way, also why is it disturbing

[spring ruin]

iirc theyre children of a higher being which are all super old (like hornet is literally older than the character named elderbug)

[steep ridge]

I think he means viewing fetuses as parasites

[mighty void]

fetuses are not life btw
atleast not yet

[steep ridge]

it's not even scientifically inaccurate

[timber pond]

Comparing all life to that of parasites.

[vague whale]

They act the same way scientifically, though

[steep ridge]

yeah

[mighty void]

i mean parasites in a way are life but what i mean is they aren't sentient or anything

[vague whale]

plenty of organisms don't reproduce that way, so that's not happening don't worry :)

[steep ridge]

anyways sherma is a sweet character I haven't replayed the end of his plotline in act 3 yet but iirc he doesn't just completely abandon his faith and I think that's a bit cute

[vague whale]

Look at fungi for instance

[teal drift]

tbf many fetuses are consensual which also massively changes the equation. Like still parasitic in nature, but parasitism isn't inherently bad. There are even examples of positive cross-species parasitism.

[mighty void]

how do fungi even work they can't even decide if they'll be tasty or inmediately fucking kill you upon consumption

[timber pond]

Well , What you mean is Mammals. Still disturbing.

Anyway following this train of throught is a bad idea.

[teal drift]

And some of my favorite people irl are figurative parasites.

[steep ridge]

this isn't the place for this discussion

[vague whale]

Why's it disturbing though

[silk dirge]

pick your favorite silksong lore discussion
-retcons
-were the rulers of verdania twins
-are fetuses parasites

[spring ruin]

bugs love abortions you guys

[teal drift]

this is why Greyroot ending is the best ending. But yes this isn't really a place for discussing the moral implications of fetuses being called parasites, even though I'd argue the answer is as simple as "parasitism isn't an inherently negative thing."

[mighty void]

iirc all he does in act 3 is be dripped out of his mind

[timber pond]

A parasite is Inherently negative, an Evil. Even the game depicts this as such.

[spring ruin]

my boy got the preacher drip 🔥

[steep ridge]

okay there's nothing inherently evil in life what is this take

there are evil people but that's not inherent to them

[silk dirge]

the slab flies:

[mighty void]

why did the caretaker even give lil bro his clothes and why did he say yes

[vague whale]

parasites aren't inherently evil, most aren't even sentient

[teal drift]

Switching to a less controversial topic: is twincest even morally bad if it's truly consensual and there's no possibility for mutated childbirth?

[wary plover]

Shakra has never set foot in the citadel right? She went around found her teacher then retired

[silk dirge]

also mosquitos are inherently evil and deserve to go extinct

[steep ridge]

hunter's journal in silksong so much better hornet fucking hates those guys 😭

[mighty void]

beings without sentience can't be evil
if they commit any evil things it is outside of their control and in their nature

[teal drift]

sorry im just baiting at this point. I think Sherma was given the clothes by caretaker because Sherma is canonically likeable and cute.

[vague whale]

You think that's less controversial? Oh boy

[spring ruin]

parasites can’t be evil since they literally exist to feed other species. ain’t no spiders without mosquitos

[steep ridge]

last good thing caretaker did

[timber pond]

Depends on your View of Evil. I do not think something needs to have a conscious will to be evil.

[mighty void]

except dolphins fuck dolphins

[teal drift]

Caretaker chill asf, he simply was willing to sacrifice the many for the good of killing GMS.

[steep ridge]

I think having a conscious mind is pretty important actually, as in it's the entire bedrock of the idea

[vague whale]

well what in the world is that about, obviously you have to be conscious to make the choice to do evil things

[teal drift]

also sherma rose to power in Songclave due to his whiteward adventure.

[wary plover]

It's just funny that if you think about it shakra entire time in pharloom has just been on big "track" quest and I hated those

[silk dirge]

seals are inherently impossible to be evil could a creature like this ever be evil https://tenor.com/view/seal-silly-funny-funny-seal-stick-tongue-out-gif-5394690607051197505

[mighty void]

he even gave his drip to Sherma for no real reason???

[spring ruin]

he literally just shrugged in act 3 and said oh damn I didn’t think the trap would do this lolll

[steep ridge]

anyways this is getting WAY off topic we need to go back to ss lore discussion lol

[spring ruin]

my bad bro - caretaker

[teal drift]

he said "yeah it sucks this is happening but i dont care that much lol"

[dry sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/eto-bleh-gif-14618428694469046242

[wary plover]

I thought he rose to power because he's devout?

[vague whale]

Sherma just deserved that drip okay

[lucid pasture]

-no
-no
-yes

[steep ridge]

what an asshole

[teal drift]

I really respect that team cherry didn't do an epilogue, but I simply need to see Sherma be the new pope of pharloom.

[dry sparrow]

sherma will become the ruler of pharloom after hornet leaves

[vague whale]

POPE SHERMA I

[timber pond]

Depends on the Source. But if i were to Elaborate, you would surely Disagree on my worldview. so i don't even think i should bother.

[mighty void]

hey the trapped worked perfectly it was just bitchass gms's insistence in saving her rebellious lesbian daughter

[teal drift]

Caretaker said "I killed god i dont care about the repercussions," which imo is intensely respectable, if shitty.

[dry sparrow]

why tho i am desperate to see the world fixes after we completely fucked it lol

[steep ridge]

what specific retcons we talking, like herrah being a weaver now?

[lucid pasture]

silksong needs an epilogue qhere they retcon hk and say the pale king is bad for 2 hour ms straight

[vague whale]

not even a retcon though

[steep ridge]

herrah wasn't really elaborated on in hk so her being a weaver now doesn't seem like a retcon yk

[silk dirge]

dont ask for the sake of everyone here

trust me

[wary plover]

I thought we agreed the pale king was alright after seeing pharloom

[wary plover]

This. She has personal experience with this particular hussle

[mighty void]

the weirdest retcon is when did the weaver stop wearing red

[spring ruin]

oh shit I forgot about that 😭 the snail shamans still didn’t gaf

[vague whale]

Gotta respect that for real

[lucid pasture]

im gonna be fr i went into silksong fully thinking herrah was a weaver like even before silksong released and when i went into silksong discussion and saw people surprised by it i was like "what"

[teal drift]

the snail in HK also says his people never used void but pretty harmless retcon honestly

[vague whale]

Same

[dry sparrow]

pharloom in a far better state than hallownest, both technologically and even the haunting itself is less bad than the infection

[wary plover]

This everyone knew herrah was a weaver, it was a confirmation not a retcon

[mighty void]

that red was tuff as shit why change to that ugly ass blue

[vague whale]

Exactlyyyyyy you get it

[teal drift]

I think ending the story where it does was perfectly natural and leaves you wanting more, instead of giving a cloying happy ending to everything. I also want to see the good stuff but I think ending with lace's laugh and not doubling down was just really satisfying.

[spring ruin]

is there any point in the game where they explain how herrah is related to weavers, did a weaver just fuck some random ass bug in hallownest at some point

[sinful nimbus]

Caretaker couldn't have foreseen Lace mucking things up tbf

[mighty void]

literally?? yes
governmentally? FUCK no

[dry sparrow]

infection turns you into some fucked monstruosity mutant, haunting just puppets you and sets you free when the silk threads are cut

[teal drift]

the real question is: was lurien just a pervert with a telescope

[steep ridge]

that fucking pale child that I hate

[vague whale]

Yes

[mighty void]

yeah

why didn't Lace just jump off her mom to not be taken by the portal is she stupid?

[steep ridge]

caretaker was willing to sacrifice hornet for his plans fuck that guy

[wary plover]

What plans exactly

[steep ridge]

the void thing

[dry sparrow]

fuck bell hermit most of all

[steep ridge]

in snared silk ending

[mighty void]

Hornet could've just jumped off
dumbass bitch she is

[vague whale]

Bell Hermit is funny

[dry sparrow]

i spend all fucking game trying to get him to warm up to me and he goes and turns out to be a cultist betrayer

[spring ruin]

they just like their void bro let em splish splash in their black goo

[steep ridge]

he couldn't have predicted gms would grab her but he should've expected it lol

[wary plover]

To me belltaker was just a bumbling old man who makes occasional slip ups

[mighty void]

GOD forbid a bitch got hobbies...

[lethal burrow]

but her body looks completely different though

[vague whale]

FR

[dry sparrow]

he just called us slave the whole game and then fucked the kingdom and died

[steep ridge]

isn't it just her cloak

[vague whale]

Based though

[steep ridge]

no that was the other guy

[mighty void]

btw why did the snail shaman even die

[wary plover]

That was my favorite part of the game tho

[steep ridge]

red memory took a lot probably

[lethal burrow]

The same guy that's whole initial introduction is about deceiving you?

[spring ruin]

she has a massive torso I don’t think any weaver has that

[mighty void]

was it necessary to use their own bodies to complete the spell I could've brought the twin heart if you wanted...

[spring ruin]

and weird horns too

[lethal burrow]

Look at her in the dreamworld where you kill her to break the seal

[steep ridge]

a super special weaver

[mighty void]

wouldn't it be cool if we could make the shaman's survive by bringing the twin heart

[steep ridge]

she's the ruler of the beasts in deepnest so herrah being special doesn't seem that crazy

[teal drift]

also this is probably not at all where they drew inspiration from, but the greyroot reminds me of the eraserhead baby, down to the subtext of babies being shitty parasites

[silk dirge]

the hearts actually make a lot of sense lore wise

[wary plover]

What if it was just weavers after childbearing, she did have the offspring of a wyrm after all

[vague whale]

EGADS

[novel eagle]

nuu vs unn

[wary plover]

For reference it happens to humans too

[mighty void]

nuu no diffs

[teal drift]

wait, i've never made that connection. Big lore incoming.

[spring ruin]

one of them is canonically a freak

[silk dirge]

the hearts are related to memories so bringing out the past makes sense

[novel eagle]

nono they aint connected

[teal drift]

What do we think the nuu lore is. Kinda never read all his dialogue.

[vague whale]

Slappem

[silk dirge]

and then they also match up with 3 queens iirc

[wary plover]

And it's not the snail

[steep ridge]

actually wait herrah being a special weaver would make hornet kick so much more ass

[dry sparrow]

like what does bell hermit even do besides give us soul one time

[spring ruin]

he just likes them bug juices bro

[novel eagle]

btw nuu isnt a snail

[lucid pasture]

nuu just like animals and looking at their organs

[teal drift]

is nuu just a species that eats warriors.

[novel eagle]

HER dialogue she is a kissing bug

[mighty void]

Nuu is just Laios Touden from Dungeon Meshi

[lethal burrow]

like

[novel eagle]

Kissing bug is a type o f insect that drains your blood by kissing you

[dry sparrow]

for me bell hermit wasn't even there to help me get uncursed when people told me to ask him where the doctor was

[mighty void]

hyperfixated on monsters

[lucid pasture]

no i just think nuu is a nerd

[vague whale]

That's true

[dry sparrow]

useless snail

[wary plover]

Childbearing does things to the body, get over it

[spring ruin]

where tf do those horns come from then

[dry sparrow]

fat shaming?

[steep ridge]

well designs can evolve over time, the weaver in hk looks pretty different from the weavers in silksong

[novel eagle]

the weaver in the 2nd pic is just an evolved spider with silk

[lucid pasture]

she tryna be different

[wary plover]

A lot of middle aged ladies I know are so peak when they're younger. I think it's the same with herrah

[mighty void]

btw first sinner is a different kind of weaver

i think

[steep ridge]

also the little weavers

[teal drift]

was the implication not that all weavers were evolved spiders and that was GMS' big lie?

[vague whale]

We cannot be shaming mommy Herrah

[steep ridge]

I think she's a different kind in ability, specifically rune rage

[novel eagle]

yeh but the widow isnt rlly that kind of a weaver tho
no idea how she works

[teal drift]

how do we know that

[mighty void]

god i cant wait for the greyroot and steel soul dlcs

[lethal burrow]

but her limbs are differently oriented across her body

[novel eagle]

by design? we can tell shes different frmo the rest

[spring ruin]

weavers are described as being spellcrafters so that’s probably just her lab experiment

[mighty void]

like finally we'll get to see fuckass steel soul assassins

[lucid pasture]

thats because her mask was removed

[teal drift]

widow is a mutilated weaver per the journal

[steep ridge]

well widow is mutilated, we don't know what she was like before she got like that

[spring ruin]

either that or her ass is biting from pure vessel

[lucid pasture]

forcefully

[novel eagle]

the arms:
look at the arms

[steep ridge]

same idea

[mighty void]

i wonder if the citadel stabbed those pins into her

[teal drift]

weavers don't really have a consistent physiology tbh

[steep ridge]

pretty sure first sinner has arms?

[wary plover]

Lurien is as mysterious as boo radley. I don't think he's really that strange

[lucid pasture]

i think the body can be different tho the thing is the masks

[teal drift]

Widow seems to be the sole GMS fan who is having the time of her life in the haunting.

[neat sandal]

maybe herrah body like that cause she give birth to Hornet

[steep ridge]

like they're not visible all the time but she uses slashing attacks like widow

[novel eagle]

look
Also red memory showed us all of em have the same body type

[mighty void]

she does

[teal drift]

Everyone else when GMS wakes up: FUCK
Widow: This is the best day ever

[steep ridge]

one of the good ones according to gms

[mighty void]

wait do male weavers exist??? maybe that's why some weavers are so different

[teal drift]

I dont think so

[vague whale]

no

[steep ridge]

considering the first sinner memory implies gms called them all daughters I doubt it

[mighty void]

maybe it's the father that makes weavers so different

[teal drift]

do we know GMS even acknowledges widow or is widow just insane and thinking she's doing stuff for GMS.

[lucid pasture]

idr it but ill believe in you ig. idk if id take that to mean anything deep tho but maybe

[steep ridge]

the latter

[vague whale]

insane

[teal drift]

i agree

[drowsy snow]

So did Grand Mother Silk start the citadel, or did it exist and she just took it over

[mighty void]

widow is a mutilated crazed escapee i doubt we can trust her on anything

[steep ridge]

the weavers made it around gms' cocoon

[teal drift]

based on maskmaker dialogue, weavers created the citadel and used it to restrain GMS

[mighty void]

weavers made it to contain gms

[spring ruin]

yo actually I just thought about this why tf are those weird wall bugs in the cutscene for first sinners silkheart. are they descendants or ancestors?? or an unascended version of weavers?

[steep ridge]

they sealed gms in her cocoon and made the citadel

[lucid pasture]

nah i think gms slaved widow

[lethal burrow]

also, I'm pretty sure if we grab screenshots of hornet next to widow and harrah harrah is substantially bigger than every other weaver We see

[teal drift]

I do believe weavers are a female only species that has to crossbreed to pass on, not 100% sure how it works

[drowsy snow]

Woah, I must have missed this dialogue from maskmaker, he just tells me to go away

[teal drift]

there's a reason she was weaver queen

[mighty void]

gms prob made the weavers out of them and first sinner is one of the earliest and purest examples

[teal drift]

that one line from maskmaker is like the only evidence of this happening unless im missing something, it's kinda crazy

[lucid pasture]

you have to hit him with a charged attack

[steep ridge]

seems to be implied with a lot of the choral commandents in the cradle

[lucid pasture]

its pretty hidden for such an important line yeah

[wary plover]

Enslaved

[mighty void]

what if the weavers work like the gerudo
they have really strong genes

[lethal burrow]

and people say the mask makers add nothing to the lore

[teal drift]

maskmaker is a lore merchant

[drowsy snow]

Seriously? No wonder I never got it. I don't really attack the NPCs

[mighty void]

mask maker is there purely to exposition dump

[steep ridge]

hornet being the daughter of a special weaver and a pale wyrm talk about a gifted kid

[lethal burrow]

He's also there to make masks

[mighty void]

kinda like how Lion from Steven Universe is not really a character but a McGuffin

[lucid pasture]

yea you hit him with a charged attack and his mask drops and he starts talking more

[spring ruin]

the little weavers in hollow knight look pretty damn similar

[teal drift]

also this is more gameplay, but are nail arts at all useful in gameplay or are they not really worth it?

[drowsy snow]

Ohhhhh, cool. I'mma go try that

[steep ridge]

they're good

[mighty void]

depends

[lethal burrow]

depend, depends on the crest

[teal drift]

i remember debates in the OG HK about this

[steep ridge]

the wanderer needle strike sucks ass

[spring ruin]

some of the crests are way better than others. architect and witch are cracked

[teal drift]

i found the reaper nail art to be WAYY too slow

[mighty void]

the architect nail art is insanely good

[teal drift]

huh ill have to try it out

[lethal burrow]

architect needle strike and witch needle strike are pretty great

[mighty void]

it has some of the highest dmg tho

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[steep ridge]

chat who's cooler mask maker hallownest or mask maker pharloom

[drowsy snow]

So did Grand Mother Silk create the weavers, like how the Radiance created the moths and Unn created the Moss Kin?

[steep ridge]

no

[sinful nimbus]

Nail arts are burst damage you charge when you are away from the enemy/boss

[rich berry]

Damages change with crests??

[teal drift]

pharloom has more aura imo

[steep ridge]

not in the same way it seems, considering the pharlids existed

[spring ruin]

not the base strike but the nail arts do

[mighty void]

only on certain attacks

[teal drift]

maybe radiance elevated moths tbh but we just dont have enough info

[lucid pasture]

i think architect charged attack is insanely strong. The problem is that it doesnt charge silk ig but it does big ass damage

[steep ridge]

we don't know how radiance or unn created the moths and mosskin so maybe

[rich berry]

Oooh thanks didn't know

[mighty void]

base strikes always do 13 dmg with max level needle

[lethal burrow]

no she elevated/ascended them from the pharlids

[teal drift]

unn seemingly just rawdogged the mosskin out of his dreams but maybe he elevate them too, we dont fully know

[spring ruin]

they do 13 with level 2

[steep ridge]

unn is a she

[mighty void]

was level 4 16?

[drowsy snow]

Interesting. Where do we learn that from? Or is it just speculation at this point

[steep ridge]

first sinner

[mighty void]

the first sinner cutscene

first sinner is probably the first weaver