sk-lore

[modest heart]

the further areas of the kingdom are not controlled by her

like the weaver nests where they plotted against her

[spark valve]

that was before the haunting

[modest heart]

yeah but i imagine the reach hasn’t really changed

from that cut ending we see that with hornet she is able to reach even beyond pharloom

tho i cant say how canon it is since it was datamined

[spark valve]

not canon whatsoever

[limpid summit]

(not)

[flat kernel]

I think only Embrace the Void is the true ending, the hollow knight shade didn't appear

And his shade is a special one

[spark valve]

that doesn't matter

[silk dirge]

have people here never heard of intentionally ambiguous endings

[spark valve]

apparently not

[flat kernel]

The hollow knight was a very important character

[spark valve]

doesn't matter

[jovial trail]

Huh what cut ending

[modest heart]

lemme get a link

[flat kernel]

I mean, it's only ambiguous between 2 endings

So it's not that bad

[spark valve]

dnm and etv

[silk dirge]

but its still ambiguous and it could be either outcome

and thats the point

[honest spade]

I definitely would love to see a area with the aesthetic of the place where you race the speedmaster
honestly, I love that place's aethetics. tis so cool

[covert tusk]

Side note it bugs me whenever “he” is used for any of the vessels. What’s the point of Hornet being “The Gendered Child” if all the vessels actually were packing??
Idk I just feel the fact the vessels are referred to more as creatures than people, and that despite that their lives still mattered because they lived in the first place, to be very important

[modest heart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCco3Rjc6bM&t=267s check the second one

[tropic arrow]

There is a cut ending, complete with achievement and cutscene, called Strung to Serve, in the files.

[covert tusk]

WAIT THATS CUT????

[gilded beacon]

A gigantic carcasse! Sure why not!?

[flat kernel]

I forgot to use they/it...

[modest heart]

yea

[silk dirge]

the first thought that comes to my mind is the ending of inception ||where the top spinning hints at it being a dream but near the end it starts to wobble hinting that it might actually be reality||

[tropic arrow]

Strung to Serve cannot be acquired in game, yes

[silk dirge]

and before you see anything else it cuts to credits

though i think nolan confirmed it is the latter its still ambiguous

[sinful nimbus]

[silk dirge]

similar concept applies to this ending

[gilded beacon]

Best girl

[spark valve]

if a rain world fan said it it has to be false

[jovial trail]

I thought that was the ending of you do the bind instead if the needolin if you had the trap

[sinful nimbus]

But they had an outer wilds pfp so it cancels out

[silk dirge]

what if all rain world fans got moved to seattle so they can experience an irl "rain world"

[honest spade]

i think the word "he" have been used for quite a lot of ungendered beings in stories, both old and new, so it doesn't bother me at all.
Just like how you can say man-made objects, for example, but that it is referring to the human race as man rather than a gender.
or at least that's how i see it

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

That's not really how gendered pronouns work anymore alas

[covert tusk]

Dude I thought strung to serve was achieved by like, attacking further instead of binding Silk or something
Duuuuudeeee it was such a cool looking endinggg

[cyan herald]

Yeah ofc man, no doubt

[tropic arrow]

He is just usually what I default to

[silk dirge]

mr mushroom is a highest being

[flat kernel]

I honestly like that they made only 2 endings being equally true

[cyan herald]

Indeed

[silk dirge]

the only other highest being is zote

[flat kernel]

I hate The Hollow Knight and Sealed Siblings

[cyan herald]

Hes my second in command

[sinful nimbus]

Ofc its not a big deal but it is incorrect even by TC's statements

[silk dirge]

how are you speaking english bro dont you speak like spore shroom

[flat kernel]

They aren't satisfactory endings for me and a lot of people

[sinful nimbus]

That's the point

[cyan herald]

Im biligual bro

Ik shrumal too

[tiny socket]

The lore channel passively emits spores for passive translation

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong had no reason to confirm an ending other than cheap fanservice idk why they did it

[cyan herald]

Gungi, gungi... Mishi umo sanga. Poggi u dungo?

[rain spindle]

Vessels arent actually agender is just that void creatures arent considered to be alive

[silk dirge]

i think tc mentioned somewhere that the vessels officially are genderless but they call the knight "he" bc its natural for them or smth like that

[tiny socket]

Vorp?

[sinful nimbus]

THK and TK are agender

[rain spindle]

Thats why they have no gender

[cyan herald]

Dont call me that plis

[flat kernel]

Because up to 5 endings being equally ambiguous is really confusing, also ideas change with time

[sinful nimbus]

They are considered to be alive

[rain spindle]

They arent

[sinful nimbus]

Its not confusing at all though?

[flat kernel]

This no true ending thing is almost 7 years old

[sinful nimbus]

Mentally they are

[silk dirge]

did people genuinely think team cherry would make sealed siblings canon with that stupid ass explanation they used the seal breaking fly

[rain spindle]

Oh then yeah

[sinful nimbus]

The underlying principle behind it still held up before they arbitrarily changed it

[muted lantern]

maybe as a small part of a dlc, like a single bonus fight, but not to the scale grimm troupe was in the first game, i wouldn't want more grimm to take up a dlc slot, it would be fine if he was a small addition to the boss rush mode tho

[rain spindle]

They probably never thought about the matter and dont defined themselves as anything

[sinful nimbus]

No it was expected that they wouldn't address any ending because any ending would be completely irrelevant to Silksong

Which is how it would've been if TC were good writers

[silk dirge]

maybe thk could make sense being canon but i have always thought since i saw that explanation it was the dumbest shit ive ever seen

[rain spindle]

They are clearly setting up a shade lord boss fight

[silk dirge]

then whats the point in it being a sequel

to me it seems you wanted more a spinoff

[muted lantern]

do you not think tc are good writers?

[silk dirge]

a game with the same character but in a different universe

rather than a direct continuation

[sinful nimbus]

That's how the game was advertised so like 🥴
Also yes I wanted a spinoff because Hallownest's story was finished

[tepid cove]

These thing are bugs or birds

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[rain spindle]

It was advertised as a sequel

[silk dirge]

what 😭

[spark valve]

bug birds

[tropic arrow]

They are called "crawbugs"

[tiny socket]

I feel that’s a reasonable conclusion considering how separate the entire story is from the original

[uncut holly]

Bugs, birds dont exist

[flat kernel]

It's still finished

[rain spindle]

Its in the steam page

[honest spade]

okay im gonna stop you write right there.
WUT DA HELL DO YA MEAN TC ARE NOT GOOD WRITERS????

[silk dirge]

i mean it connects back in a lot of ways

[flat kernel]

We don't know what happened after DNM or ETV

[tepid cove]

In Spanish the name is : Cuervones, and it means literally: Crows
So that's why I'm asking

[silk dirge]

its clear team cherry intended it to leave off of base hk

[uncut holly]

The Mice Bugs in Greymoor are actually cannonically Mites. Those are what Hollow Knight Mites look like.

[flat kernel]

For hornet to get captured

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong's narrative is completely uninspired unoriginal garbage

[honest spade]

🤨

[uncut holly]

This makes Mites one of the few real world bug parellels to apepar in Hollow Knight

[tropic arrow]

In English they are called Crawbugs in Hunter journal

[uncut holly]

I dunno what it is about people in this channel and attempted rage baiting

[silk dirge]

like are you telling me that the game that started off as a dlc for another game might relate back to the game it started off as a dlc for? what no thats crazy thats impossible

[rain spindle]

Ignored the main themes in favor of superficial comparisons award

[honest spade]

https://tenor.com/view/lancer-fate-stay-night-rin-gif-19907671

[sinful nimbus]

It was possible that doesn't mean its good writing

And it certainly wasn't what was advertised

[rain spindle]

sequel<

[silk dirge]

where did team cherry advertise silksong as a spinoff

[gusty tusk]

it would have been a disservice to the fans to not tie it to the story in HK

[silk dirge]

genuinely what the fuck are you talking about

[rain spindle]

Le sequel to le hollow knight

[flat kernel]

Theory but i think that maybe dream no more might be the true ending, because the hollow knight wouldn't let hornet get captured. Just a theory tho, both are equally valid

[silk dirge]

i dont like to get aggresive but team cherry never advertised silksong as a spinoff

[narrow glacier]

We do know that they jumped her more than once and she just got worn down. The ones we saw in the opening weren’t the only ones sent after her

[sinful nimbus]

They stated you wouldn't need to play the first game to understand the second one and they described the game as a "Blank slate" storywise

[narrow glacier]

She was fighting them off for a while before she got caught

[sinful nimbus]

If that's not a spinoff idk what is

[tawdry flare]

[silk dirge]

in every other place tho they called it a sequel

[narrow glacier]

That’s not a spin off. A spin off could have those things. But they are not required to be a spin off

[sinful nimbus]

As in its a second installment in the franchise yes

[uncut holly]

Like people come onto here, and they just want to fight about something or make some obscene statement to make someone want to refute them. Ive seen people one this channel try to discuss lore and then some guy comes in states whats really happening singles someones theory calls their theory stupid and ignores all evidence that is not directly told in text, and even then it might just be interpretable to whatever their saying.

[flat kernel]

These are old af statements

[silk dirge]

and i mean you can understand most of the story without having played hk

it doesnt seem to me like they went too far off path

[flat kernel]

A lot of stuff TC stated in the past about silksong has changed

[tiny socket]

I feel most of the required understanding is the history of hollowest rather than the events during hk

[rain spindle]

You just wouldn't understand true ending

[tawdry flare]

Deus Ex Void

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah except the true ending and most of act 3 🥴

[uncut holly]

Like ignore all actualy sense and just stick to guns and fight people for no reason, additionally go after people for very basic theories like Silk is Soul

[narrow glacier]

You can understand like 99% of the main story without playing HK

[rain spindle]

Nah you can understand act 3. Not true ending tho

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not the one who brought up the "Well what did you expect" argument

[tropic arrow]

they don't exactly look like real world mites

[narrow glacier]

The only things that require HK knowledge are strictly in act 3

[uncut holly]

Im pretty sure their a Pun, their name ingame is Mite

Its like Mite > Mice

[silk dirge]

same thing as craw

[sinful nimbus]

"What did you expect?"
"I expected what was advertised"
"Well those statements are YEARS OLD!!!!"

[muted lantern]

its really embarrassing but i thought fleamasters eyes where the mustache (like frisks closed eyhes in undertale) and the dots were weird eyebrows) don't ask why i thought this i don't know

[flat kernel]

We have to remember that hollow knight silksong is almost 8 years old

[tiny socket]

I think the only accurate bug to real life is the groal the great skip

[flat kernel]

As a concept

[tropic arrow]

I don't get it if so

[covert tusk]

Just had a funny thought, and it’s that it’s telling how even in ruin, Hallownest can have someone like Zote walk around and be relatively fine if they’re just on guard, but Pharloom requires everyone to be alert and ready if they’re wanna survive

[sinful nimbus]

Also judging by the early sketches of the games map its obvious they always wanted to tie it into HK

"Void cult" are we fr 🥀

[spark valve]

zote gets lucky him surviving isn't that different than like sherma surviving

[silk dirge]

i mean duh?

[rain spindle]

Yeah thats what dlcs are

[uncut holly]

They changed the letter from c to t, so you have Mite instead of Mice

[narrow glacier]

That’s because Hallownest > Pharloom

[covert tusk]

Don’t worry you weren’t the only one who had a dumb mistake with this man I thought he was holding a hat at his chest the whole time like you do at a funeral

[narrow glacier]

City of Tears and it’s soundtrack blow all of Pharloom out of the water

[sinful nimbus]

Its not "duh" when they state the opposite in prerelease material 🥴

[rain spindle]

The snails who turned into particles that gave you void spells are related to void what a surprise

[sinful nimbus]

No one ever brought up the snails what are you waffling about

[silk dirge]

yeah idk what was up with that statement

[tropic arrow]

I disagree

[silk dirge]

it contradicts literally everything else theyve said and shown tho

[rain spindle]

What else could be a void cult

[honest spade]

dude why are you so mad that a game that is advertised as a sequel to another game have ties to the previous game?
😭 and btw this is a lore channel?

actually nwm im leaving chat

[sinful nimbus]

A cult who worships the void

[sinful nimbus]

Bro cannot read

[covert tusk]

My point is you see way more like, WARRIORS in Pharloom than in Hallownest, who had more cushy bugs besides like, Tiso and anyone native to Hallownest before it fell

[silk dirge]

hornet dlc was always going to be exploring a new area and ofc hallownest would be related in there somehow

[sinful nimbus]

Say whatever you want on if its good writing or not but its objectively not what was advertised

[narrow glacier]

Then we must fight to the death. Here you can have the root infected Hornet moveset and I will use A full Architect Creat build.

Ready?

[sinful nimbus]

So the "what did you expect" argument is moot

[flat kernel]

Silksong was radio silent for 4 or 5 years

[sinful nimbus]

No it was not

Bro is just making stuff up 😭 🙏

[flat kernel]

They didn't give updates on development

[sinful nimbus]

That's not true at all

[flat kernel]

They just did the first things

[tiny socket]

Is there any information on where the pilgrims come to pharloom from?

[flat kernel]

Then they stopped talking about it

The stuff that was early advertised would get changed

[rain spindle]

Xbox 2022

[silk dirge]

i feel like the only one who could answer what was actually meant by that statement is team cherry you should ask them

[sinful nimbus]

"There were gaps inbetween development updates THEREFORE you shouldn't have trusted the prerelease material" are we fr

[tiny socket]

It seems that they arrive at bone bottom, but I haven’t seen an obvious entrance that low

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing was meant by that statement its just blatantly untrue

[muted lantern]

while i disagree with your takes on the writing im sad to hear you didn't enjoy it. I personally have my own critiques of silksong but enjoyed its narrative quite a lot and thought there was many strong aspects to the writing

[flat kernel]

How much did they say? I didn't remember it

[silk dirge]

its funny bc this person thinks silksong is peak in literally every other way and i can respect that

[rain spindle]

A whole fucking trailer?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes I like the gameplay I like the art I like the music I like the characters and I like the worldbuilding, its just the narrative

[spark valve]

that doesn't count or something idk why we're still doing the whole lying about news thing

[flat kernel]

A gameplay trailer has nothing to do with what this guy is talking about

[rain spindle]

Its a girl

[silk dirge]

i mean team cherry also stated they wanted silksong to be playable by beginners at some point and we saw how that turned out 🥀

[flat kernel]

Dude man

[silk dirge]

(the difficulty is cool i like it but yeah they said some silly shit)

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really care that what they said changed I just think its funny how people are acting like it was incredibly obvious from the marketing and stuff when it was the opposite

[tiny socket]

Neither of those words are typically used for a girl

[terse warren]

While I still think that the lack of trailers was definitely... A decision, I also think talking about it is kinda pointless by now

[silk dirge]

i mean when there were constant debates pre release on what they meant by sequel i wouldnt say so

[sinful nimbus]

3 trailers is satisfactory imo the game got plenty of hype and the trailers didn't spoil everything

[flat kernel]

The game is good at least

[silk dirge]

yeah they didnt show like anything of act 3 in the trailers which is a good choice

[flat kernel]

But yeah, stuff changed

[sinful nimbus]

The debate was clarified by Leth like 2 times so

[silk dirge]

they did show the fucking abyss dinosaur thingy in the first trailer but it was ourple

[terse warren]

I mean half the stuff from the first trailer got cut so also in 7 years it's really not much, but also I don't care enough to discuss this

[sinful nimbus]

RIP lomm

Apparently he's been dead since 2022 as well and we never knew 😭

[silk dirge]

the real loss is the fucking snail village that was cut from hk

[honest spade]

i feel like rushing to finish the game and not taking in the narrative isn't the right way to experience silksong. the world and its narrative go hand in hand. As you explore Pharloom and make your way up to the Citadel, you can not only see the increasing Haunting, you also see a lot more corpses and Haunted pilgrims. for example.
Like the environments and lore tablets, relic descriptions, all those create the world and the story. And I think it was done quite well.
imo just taking everything the game tells you on surface level value, and not actually observing the world around you as well greatly devalues the appeal of Silksong's plot.

[flat kernel]

@sinful nimbus i've been reading on reddit and stuff like that. People seem to like the decision of choosing a true ending

[terse warren]

It kinda bothers me how TC just. Didn't tell us stuff from the first trailer wasn't there anymore. But the game is good so wtv

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really value the opinions of redditors alas

[flat kernel]

It's more generic but it's less confusing

[terse warren]

You're saying this as if reddit was a good place to look

[silk dirge]

never forget what was taken from you https://youtu.be/iS-v4NMQkBg?si=MrUhqNctXf4Wi-cC&t=91

[spark pine]

Does the existence of shell wood imply that zote has been to pharloom?

[spark valve]

they also didn't choose a true ending they just eliminated some

[flat kernel]

? Twitter and reddit are the places were people do critics about stuff

[sinful nimbus]

I did soak it in

[spark valve]

[flat kernel]

With text

[sinful nimbus]

First playthrough took like 50 hours its not like I speedran the game

[silk dirge]

team cherry committed a sin most grave by cutting this

[terse warren]

I almost got the 100% Speedrun achievement by accident on first playthrough

[half shuttle]

sherma is the knight

[honest spade]

and yet you are claiming that the fact that something from a previous game returns is somehow a bad thing apparently. not saying that you didnt enjoy the game but i find your arguements about Silksong's ties to Hk quite distasteful

[terse warren]

I miss the normal speech from Hallownest, every talks Shakespeare in Pharloom

[flat kernel]

Most of them were tho, only DNM and ETV 1 and 2 are valid now

[uncut holly]

They do talk shakespere now that you mention it

[silk dirge]

ap literature ptsd

[sinful nimbus]

Its a bad thing because it doesn't do any service to the narrative and in fact retcons previous statements from Team Cherry

This has nothing to do with how I approached the story

[rain spindle]

It kinda wraps up knight's character

[spark valve]

internet users when people want different things out of media (surely they are distasteful and bad)

[rain spindle]

It proves hes not hollow

[terse warren]

No it's just that it gets very meh after a while

[sinful nimbus]

The Knight's character was wrapped up in the first game

[rain spindle]

Not really

[sinful nimbus]

Its dumb fanservice that does a disservice to both games

[spark valve]

the first game proved that if you could read

[rain spindle]

At least not in the same way

[flat kernel]

Yeah, in the first game that was just subjective

[spark valve]

it was not

[rain spindle]

No it never proved

[sinful nimbus]

DNM and ETV gave closure

[silk dirge]

if i have to ever read a 1600s love poem again im searching up the grave of the person who wrote it and defiling it

[rain spindle]

It implies somwtomes but it also implied the opposite

[spark valve]

you should play the first game it's pretty good

[sinful nimbus]

Its not proved in SS either

[rain spindle]

It was open to interpretation

[spark valve]

it really wasn't

not at all

[uncut holly]

What was open to interpretation?

[sinful nimbus]

By what possible metric is it proven in silksong but not Hollow Knight where it does similar actions

[rain spindle]

It does prove

[terse warren]

I mean in SS it is but it was already proved in HK

[covert tusk]

Putting random thoughts here cuz I like thinking about Silksong on this kind of level, I like that the only way for Hornet to get an ending where she’s still her is to refuse to play Silk’s game. You don’t beat fascism by following its playbook, that just means you get smoother authoritarian (the Weaver Queen ending). By rebelling and denying Silk any semblance that her world view was right by using the snare, it not only (eventually) saves Pharloom, but even inspires change in those who you wouldn’t expect it from (Lace)
Yes there’s void mayhem and whatnot but like idk I like this idea

[spark valve]

so many times

[rain spindle]

The knight saving hornet is actually a first

[honest spade]

it brings back the void which was established in HK already, how is that a bad thing? we have to remember that Silksong still exists in the same universe and AFTER HK.

[sinful nimbus]

It saves other people in HK

[rain spindle]

We never seen the knight save someone. Most of the times its optional

Which is exactly what I was talking about

[silk dirge]

bretta:

[sinful nimbus]

This has nothing to do with what I said so 🥴

[terse warren]

No Will to Break mfs when decisions

[spark valve]

that... doesn't mean it doesn't do it do you not understand that that's an expression of free will that it can choose to do things or not

[rain spindle]

Sometimes it implies hes hollow, sometomes it implies otherwise

[uncut holly]

I mean it was alluded to that The Knight cared about Hornet in Godhome with Nosk. It was kind of a strange thing that the community talked about, but it turns out it is atleast now significant or proving.

[rain spindle]

Now we have full definitive proof

[sinful nimbus]

But void loses most of its thematic connotations in SS

[spark valve]

we already did

[sinful nimbus]

That's bad writing

[rain spindle]

Which is a necessity if you want to use the knight in the future

[placid pollen]

what even is lace? like, is lace a bug? im confused

[silk dirge]

the weirdest explanation ive ever seen is that the knight is actually hollow but the reason it can move is its controlled by us

[terse warren]

You're saying that like it's a good thing

[spark valve]

lace is made of silk

[rain spindle]

Void already got subverted in hollow knight

[tiny socket]

Lace is a silk construct

[sinful nimbus]

No it didn't

[spark valve]

this isn't true either undertale should never have existed

[placid pollen]

oh

[rain spindle]

Things like the collector proved all wr knew about void from outside sources were wrong

[uncut holly]

Lace isnt a bug their a silk construct, that has been weaved (encoded) to act like a child. Because of this they dont think their alive, but Hornet disagrees.

[rain spindle]

Void can take form and can form actual beings

[sinful nimbus]

Toby Fox made undertale to screw with lore fans specifically

[silk dirge]

im not saying i agree with it but yeah im not surprised its coming from that fandom

[tiny socket]

The collector was made by pk wasn’t it?

[sinful nimbus]

Not really

[tiny socket]

You can see the mold somewhere

[rain spindle]

He was a mistake when making a kingsmould

[sinful nimbus]

Collector is an altered kingsmould its not inconsistent with how void acted in HK nor does it disregard its thematic connotations in any meaningful capacity

[terse warren]

Except Collector took form by being created by PK

Also Void Tendrils already proved void can take form

[valid compass]

can we agree the knight from hk was a dumbass who couldn't hold everbloom properly that it gets destroyed in one hit while hornet fights lost lace while holding on to the flower

[rain spindle]

If you dont understand the fact the collector feels emotions and has enough intelligence to make a fucking map isnt a subversion of the void explained by pale king idk what to tell you

[honest spade]

you said that it didn't do any service to the narrative, when it actually used an established point from the previous game (which was a "good" force in the previous game) and turned that on its head to show a different, far crueler portrayal.
I think classifies as service to a narrative, even expands itself actually since now the entire world of hollow knight have grown even connected and more vast, whihc is good in many ways.

[flat kernel]

How ss void is different?

[uncut holly]

Collectors mysterious, but it seems they where a Kingsmould, probably given to the Tower of Love guy to preserve creatures from the infection, or otherwise preserve things, likely from the infection.

[timber pond]

It did. the white lady says that The hollow knight themselves was tarnished by idea instilled. meaning it can happen. Meaning these vessels dont remain "hollow" forever.

[uncut holly]

Then the Collector went crazy somehow with grubs and killed the owner, likely

[silk dirge]

real

[tiny socket]

Perhaps I canonically did ll hitless?

[sinful nimbus]

That's all well and good but it has absolutely nothing to do with what I said 🥴

[uncut holly]

At some point the Collector became a nudist aswell

[terse warren]

Ok so you are just using the word subversion wrong

[rain spindle]

I might im not an english scholar

[terse warren]

The whole POINT of the game is that Void can feel emotions

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't symbolize jack in SS

[terse warren]

There is no subversion if it's the premise

[flat kernel]

What was void supposed to symbolize?

[timber pond]

The Void Is not Subverted, It was established to be mailable as its nature. Not static Nothing.

[rain spindle]

I mean subversion as to how it contradicts what pale king thought about it

[tiny socket]

Was there specific evidence other than this that the knight has no will? Is it not possible that the knight simple has a pure drive that radiance can’t subvert?

[terse warren]

Well Pale King being wrong is also the point though

[flat kernel]

In silksong it's an antagonistic force while in hollow knight void is a protagonistic force

[rain spindle]

Exactly

[spark valve]

it has a will

[rain spindle]

Thats why knight saving hornet in silksong is definitive proof he wasnt hollow

[terse warren]

[random harbor]

Charm: Void Heart

An emptiness that was hidden within, now unconstrained. Unifies the void under the bearer's will.

This charm is a part of its bearer and can not be unequipped.

@tammo6424 used /charms category: L-W charm: Void Heart

[terse warren]

But we already had proof

[vivid kernel]

@forest scroll

[spark valve]

hollow knight fan read challenge (impossible)

[rain spindle]

Most of it was optional

[forest scroll]

god please no

[terse warren]

Most is a keyword

Any proof is proof

[vivid kernel]

we have to know the lore

[terse warren]

Voidheart literally proves we have a will

[timber pond]

More than likely.

[spark valve]

because it can choose to do things
because it has a will and agency

[flat kernel]

It also shows that the knight actually isn't a hero, the knight didn't control the void until hornet was in danger

Which is not altruistic

[spark valve]

hk fans really can't read lmao

[silk dirge]

what the fuck did i just find 😭

[terse warren]

No,, it's actually that TC retconned the Void Heart and now TK can't control it anymore apparently

[flat kernel]

They do

[silk dirge]

are there actually 160 bosses in both games

[rain spindle]

He can but it has a range

[flat kernel]

They just didn't wanna do it

[sinful nimbus]

Its tied thematically to the regrets of Hallownest and more specifically the Pale King multiple times

Getting Void Heart is representative of coming to terms with your regrets and the past

Coming to terms with the past is what allows The Knight to take responsibility for the future and free the kingdom from its stasis, placing void as representative of the end (Which is corroborated by it being referred to in terms of absence throughout the game)

@rain spindle @timber pond Pinging you with this as well because I never clarified what "thematic connotations" really meant, my bad

[timber pond]

I personally think the knight can become the shade lord The moment he gets the void heart, and that is the "Ancient ENEMY" Radiance talks about when you dreamnail them

[terse warren]

They don't at all in Silksong. They literally have to slash the void tendrils at the end

[terse warren]

1. That's still a retcon

2. Is the range 0? Because again, they had to slash the void tendrils

[uncut holly]

The Knight is confirmed to have a Will, the concept of Hollow is very confusing and kinda vague. I dont think the Knight would have been able to contain the Radiance normally though, but who knows maybe it could, but its mentioned the Radiance can control Wills so maybe not.

[rain spindle]

Wont debate 1 but the 2 is different because the tendrils are actual beings and not just pure void. Wr can see the knight using the void later to retrieve hornet

They are pure void

But like not void void

[sinful nimbus]

Tendrils are pure void that's how void normally acts to nearby foes

If they weren't pure void they wouldn't be controlled by The Knight in the first game

[terse warren]

But they are pure void. They stop attacking you once you get VH

[silk dirge]

i mean i see not letting void take over pharloom as freeing the kingdom from an end

[rain spindle]

Then idk

[uncut holly]

From the Abyss climb it is mentioned that being "hollow" means having no Will to corrupt, but The Knight does have one. Also begs the question why The Pale King would willing go through with things if he can see their have a will and philosophy it out that they wouldnt be able to contain them because of it.

[silk dirge]

so you are cutting free the kingdom of its regrets

[flat kernel]

I think it was just an narrative resource to make it more emotional

[silk dirge]

idk if i have the brain power for this last time i did analysis like this was in ap lit

[timber pond]

But thats the moral quandary isnt it? absence cannot be absence forever. the idea instilled in the hollow knight was The pale king as a father figure, he looked up to him.
The knight could have had the same thing happen With hornet after she helps him throughout the game. The games theme debates constantly what "absence" and "hollow" even mean. Its a constant Change.

[silk dirge]

and it made me want to commit crimes against 1600s love poem writers

[terse warren]

So, plot holes are fine if they're for hype moments and aura?

[flat kernel]

It would be boring if the knight just simply appeared there and save her

[sinful nimbus]

I struggle to see how this has to do with anything I said

[uncut holly]

I mean all the Vessels where made in the exact same way, why would one be more hollow than the others.

[terse warren]

The knight showing up and its mere presence causing the tendrils to back down would've been 1000 times better

[sinful nimbus]

And no its not really debated what absence or hollow means

[timber pond]

Coming to terms with ones regrets Means change.

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[honest spade]

i said the arguements were what i found distasteful. If a developer says in a conference but then does something else in the game instead, then that is not a great point to be raging about. And then using that statement to call the game's points wrong or bad is just absurd.
using a meta point for an argument regarding a game's plot is very distasteful in my opinion

[terse warren]

Because at peag the Void Heart would still work even if nerfed

[timber pond]

So the Change the vessels go through is thier ability to be more than Hollow.

[flat kernel]

It's not a plot hole, the knight being entirely underneath the void sea without being attacked already is proof enough that they control it

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah this isn't what I was doing 🥴

[sinful nimbus]

Purity has nothing to do with the current conversation

[terse warren]

And yet they can't control Void Tendrils. Which they do in game 1.

[honest spade]

"Team Cherry said all endings are canon"
"Now I am mad that Team Cherry made X ending canon"

[uncut holly]

I dont think the Void Heart was ever becoming Hollow themself, they are commented on feeling an emptiness but it is Void given Will. So The Knights Will is still there its just wielding the Void.

[rain spindle]

Im guessing it was an instinctive reaction

They can control the void in silksong

[sinful nimbus]

Well unnecessary retcon are bad practice yes

[timber pond]

What the hell are you talking about. The representation of the vessels evolving is metaphorical.

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not mad though

[rain spindle]

They did say nothing they say outside the game is canon tho

[uncut holly]

No other void tendrils seem to come after Hornet when The Knight stops the ones by slashing them. We also know that the Void normally is not one mind, The Knight unifies it though presumeably under their Will.

[rain spindle]

Cause they can always change their minds

[sinful nimbus]

That's a huge stretch of what they really said which was about prerelease material

[silk dirge]

i see it this way

hk is about setting a dead kingdom to rest, you cant save it so its about letting it rest and coming to terms with its regrets

silksong is about saving a kingdom that still has potential to live and cutting it free from its regrets

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong's kingdom also dies during the events of the game

[silk dirge]

just gonna leave this here as well https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/924457324800798731/1417701172487262320/image.png?ex=68cebc5b&is=68cd6adb&hm=0c46d051ac56486c07dbc28fef5063dabdfc58e6d5f91556c21fcee1770712f4&=&format=webp&quality=lossless

[rocky smelt]

they have already said not to take stuff they say outside of the game as canon and that its subject to change

[flat kernel]

Like i said, it's probably a narrative resource to make the scene cooler, they probably didn't thought some people would assume that the knight doesn't control the void anymore. Just some seconds after that scene the shade lord is shown in a glimpse and the knight actually controls the void to get hornet out of there

[silk dirge]

thats quite debatable

[sinful nimbus]

What they said outside of the game was representative of their design philosophy for Hollow Knight

By invalidating certain endings they invalidated the "choose your own adventure" aspect they emphasized

[sinful nimbus]

No its not. The "Kingdom" was defined by the Citadel and its leader

[rain spindle]

It shows them controllin the void in the scene

[uncut holly]

It almost dies, we dont know how much GMS could have held on, maybe it could have become like Hallownest.

[flat kernel]

Yeah

[sinful nimbus]

The region survives but it does so in Hollow Knight as well

[silk dirge]

i mean the region in hk is mostly dead

[flat kernel]

That's why i said it's just a thing to make the scene cooler

[rain spindle]

Hallownest literally doesnt have anyone living there

Elderbuf, Ogrim... and...

[silk dirge]

in silksong a lot of people are still alive

[rain spindle]

Bretta?

[uncut holly]

Hallownest only has a few people in it, Pharloom has way more people occupying it, and a constant supply of Pilgrims arriving and dying off screen.

[timber pond]

The lesson for the game is that the kingdom is its people though, and that past ideal of it being the citadel only caused suffering.

[sinful nimbus]

There are quite a few people who are just fine after Hollow Knight

[rain spindle]

Cornifer and Iselda travel. Sly is implied to leave

[glossy badger]

Elderbug immortal

[silk dirge]

"mostly"

[flat kernel]

It's like Goku and Freeza fighting for 5 minutes but it's actually not 5 minutes for us

[silk dirge]

there are alive people but the vast majority are dead

dirthmouth is called a "fading town"

[terse warren]

If the thing making the scene cooler can be pointed out to as a retcon then maybe it's not making the scene cooler

[sinful nimbus]

Sure Pharloom probably has more but how much people are left is irrelevant when it comes to the thematics

[silk dirge]

where like bellhart has a lot of people and seems to still have a future ahead of it

[flat kernel]

You're just overthinking it

[uncut holly]

Most people still even around in Hollow Knight are the historic people still around in it with grounds there. Like Dung Defender.

[sinful nimbus]

What and the mantes or spiders or bees don't?

[quartz flicker]

I completed the Zi questline in Steel Soul. That content plus the bit about the "City of Steel" is definitely foreshadowing DLC content, right?

[terse warren]

That's because manga aren't animated, unlike anime

[flat kernel]

I would never think about it if you didn't mention it

[honest spade]

did you read what I wrote? I said using meta piints are not valid for comparing in-game lore. That's like saying that since developer Inti Creates said that "MegaMan Zero's new design is just an artstyle change and he actually looks the same as his X series counterpart" is correct when everything in the games, their lore, descriptions, designs, EVERYTHIGN contradicts the devs statement.

[silk dirge]

only the mantises arent infected

its very possible everyone else just dies out without the infection animating them

[sinful nimbus]

Why would meta points not be valid

[rain spindle]

Mantis village is not part of hallownest
Spiders are aimless without weavers
The bees are all gonna die without hive knight

[teal drift]

Does killing the radiance uninfect people? And if so are they alive?

[honest spade]

because it is not a in-universe retcon in any meaningful capacity. duh

[uncut holly]

Probably, although i dont know how we would go to another Kingdom, plus that seems rather far away. Maybe itll be a DLC and then it will turn into a game, like the Team Cherry way. We know that Team Cherry is capable of making small maps, as seen with the original Silk Song but it just grew. Its a nice prospect though.

[silk dirge]

because to me it seems like in pharloom the people still have a future ahead of them

[sinful nimbus]

Diegetic information is only half the lore

[silk dirge]

where in hollow knight is there much of a future for anyone in hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

This is like arguing it doesn't matter if you retcon item descriptions either

[flat kernel]

Also silksong wasn't even close to being done when TC said that

[teal drift]

Infection only happened to beings because they were sentient, and it plays off of their sentience to infect them. Its debatable if theyd still alive, i tend to think they would.

[glossy badger]

Item descriptions are in universe

[honest spade]

exactly 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing in Silksong narratively relied on canonizing a specific ending, it was done purely for fanservice's sake

[timber pond]

IF it is Then it would be in the style of Darksouls 3 DLC, because the implication of the void summoning that Sula does implies that the masters will execute all responsible with impunity. And in Act 3 technically every little interaction in the kingdom is to blame for the void threads. So it would be a sequel to silksong if it goes through.

[silk dirge]

i mean it depends a lot of husk got reanimated

[sinful nimbus]

No they are not

[quartz flicker]

I could easily see the City of Steel not being particularly big. It could just be the size of like two areas.

[teal drift]

Yes they are lmfao.

Thats like claiming LOTR appendices arent in universe.

[flat kernel]

If embrace the void is the only true ending it means that The Hollow Knight is the king now

[sinful nimbus]

Item descriptions are not written anywhere in universe 🥴

[flat kernel]

Maybe stuff could change

[glossy badger]

Oh lmfao

Anyways

[sinful nimbus]

Do you think each charm comes with a description etched onto it or something

[silk dirge]

i mean yeah but theres no central like civilization that has a future

[uncut holly]

It seems the OG Silk Song map we can see in some of the earlier map models, was like 5 Zones, then of course it grew, but it used to be 5 major zones roughly.

[terse warren]

They aren't? That's not what in-universe means

[sinful nimbus]

Yes the entire game is about putting the kingdom to rest so something new can happen

Much like Silksong

Which is about taking down the Citadel so new stuff can happen

[silk dirge]

to me it seems that something new is just people exploring it

[uncut holly]

If Team Cherry can think of enough ideas to do the Citadel of Song which really is just one setting, and keep going and going and going with it. I dont doubt they would ever run out of ideas for future projects.

[sinful nimbus]

There's no real way to determine its future and that's besides the point

[flat kernel]

In silksong hornet was actually trying to save pharloom, but mr mushroom showing up just proves that pharloom has no saving anymore

[tawdry flare]

you know the "listen" and "speak" prompts? hornet and tk can actually see those. they have to look up at it to start talking
-# edit: epic reply fail...

[sinful nimbus]

Not really

[silk dirge]

yeah but it is much less certain than pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Mr Mushroom just shows up when "an age is about to end" not when a kingdom dies necessarily

[timber pond]

The key diffrence is that Hallownest is dead in what it stood for, yet the song and silk people can weave in Pharloom still lives. So the identity of pharloom lives.

[uncut holly]

Hornet comments that only dead kingdoms excite him at some point

[flat kernel]

It isn't the same thing?

[vague whale]

I hate how important Mister Mushroom is

[vague whale]

no, it's not

[quartz flicker]

The whole vibes of the City of Steel makes me think of a really weird but relatively small location.

[flat kernel]

Yeah i also hate it, Mr Mushroom looks like a joke character

[silk dirge]

idk i just think this concept of living and dead kingdoms is very abstract

[flat kernel]

But silksong doubles down on him not being a joke character

[timber pond]

Well , he himself says it was Hornets heroic deeds that drew him.

[silk dirge]

but to me it seems like hallownest will never have a big civilization inhabit it again

[uncut holly]

I feel like the City of Steel is going to be Void related, the Servant of Seer Zi we see in game somehow learned Void when their just a common bug. Makes me think they are doing something with it over there.

[sinful nimbus]

Why does that matter thematically

[silk dirge]

itll just be a few scattered communities like the hive and deepnest

[uncut holly]

Ah ok

[silk dirge]

where with pharloom there will still be a central civlization itll just be changed

[flat kernel]

Hornet even respects him like he is a wise prophet

[silk dirge]

if that makes sense

[sinful nimbus]

Most of Pharlooms buildings and infrastructure are dumps by the end of the game

[uncut holly]

He is The Herald, Mr. Mushroom is a cryptid that watches Kingdoms rise and fall.

[timber pond]

In the endings he also has "The Sight" the Mask Makers have to see ones true nature.

[sinful nimbus]

Whatever comes will have the same people but will be drastically different from the previous regime

[silk dirge]

thats my point

[lethal burrow]

or "in times of great change"

[silk dirge]

hallownest wont have the same people bc most of them are dead

[uncut holly]

That also matches up nicely with the Fayforn we see in game, Giant Snow Moth like thing. They are also a cryptid like unique entity that the Weavers heavily valued the counsel of.

[sinful nimbus]

So my question is how does this justify the inclusion of void thematically

[uncut holly]

It would be nice to know that Hallownest is occupied modern day, it might actually be. The entire kingdom died but its free to move into. Might be a situation where theres so much empty space to fill but, maybe theres squaters.

[silk dirge]

bc there is still a civilization that can thrive there after you cut it free

where hallownest its like is anyone going to make anything new here

doesnt seem like it

[flat kernel]

Yeah silksong could live without the void being involved, but honestly i think it would be pretty boring and it would make silksong more of a spinoff rather than a sequel

[sinful nimbus]

How do you know

[timber pond]

The regrets and mistakes of the Kingdom (GMS) pulling it down. As it often represents regrets.

[spark valve]

It’s used differently

[sinful nimbus]

As a matter of personal taste I'd much prefer we got new stuff instead of beating a dead horse by including a million old elements like SS did

[uncut holly]

We havent really pieced together the full lore of Silk Song, no one knows the full story completely yet, so we cant really determine that at all any time soon.

[silk dirge]

by the fact most people are dead in hallownest

[quartz flicker]

This is what Zi says: **"The rite... The vassal is tarnished. They have touched the dark. By the Masters they will now be hunted... no matter the distance fled." ** This suggests to be that the "Masters" are opposed to the Void.

[rocky smelt]

silksong has plenty of new elements and barely touches on hollow knight until act 3

[timber pond]

It wouldnt be Hallownest anymore though. If you think about it, anyone and everyone who understood what hallownest represented is dead. Hornet is the only one.

[silk dirge]

i feel like this is just going around in circles but like its kinda hard to explain my thoughts on a dead kingdom and an alive kingdom

[flat kernel]

It makes sense since silksong is mostly a story about hornet

I saw people complaining that the plot focuses too much on hornet and forgets about the silk family

[uncut holly]

I mean Dung Defender lives, the Nail Masters and Sage live, maybe Nail Smiths alive.

A few others.

[silk dirge]

but i get much more this place is fucked and will probably just be a grand story from hallownest more than pharloom

[uncut holly]

Fluke Hermit is the new Flukemarm, we have that to look forward to

[timber pond]

Not opossed, but perhaps "controloing" or they take themselves as arbiters. Because Jhinn in the first game says that the knight is "complete.... like masters?" when you have the void heart.

[quartz flicker]

The Act 3 ending has established that the Vessels are void beings allied with Hornet. So what if the Masters and/or the rulers of the City of Steel would see the Vessels as a threat, and Hornet their enemy by proxy?

[sinful nimbus]

Stripping down Silksong to its core elements, not a much is that original. The haunting is an infection repeat, GMS is Radiance 2, whiteward is the soul sanctum, etc

[limpid quiver]

events in silksong happened after hollowknight?

[uncut holly]

Yep

Silk Song is undeniably a Sequel.

[timber pond]

Well yeah, because its like a negative Polaroid of Hollow Knight. i Kind of Expected it to be like that.

[sinful nimbus]

Well yeah and that's unsatisfying if it doesn't meaningfully parallel its role in HK

[flat kernel]

Gms isn't radiance, she's more like the pale king with some aspects similar to the radiance

[rocky smelt]

pretty reductive tbh, if you want to see it that was sure though

[uncut holly]

Its very disconnected from Hallownest and the plot of Hollow Knight, mostly just the Weaver elements of that game. Like how the Weavers fled to Deepnest, and Herrah probably led them.

[flat kernel]

Gms also controls the bugs for different reasons

[glossy badger]

The systems in place aren't destroyed when you kill grandmother silk. You end up just replacing her. The void being brought into the story destroys the systems in place. I guess that's what team cherry was going for thematically

[sinful nimbus]

She's a sealed deity who was betrayed by her creations who is enslaving the entire kingdom

[flat kernel]

Gms seems to do it out of pure egoism

While radiance does it because she feels betrayed

[uncut holly]

GMS seems to want to control everything and everyone from her dialogue shes obsessed with "loyalty"

[quartz flicker]

No, GMS is motivated by her love for Lace, at least in part.

[uncut holly]

We also know that GMS warred with all of the other civilizations that where in Pharloom previous.

[uncut holly]

Its both

[sinful nimbus]

Well this seems like a bit of a lose lose situation

Either void disregards its thematic connotations or its a rehash of HK's story. That's why I think it would've been better to have avoided it alltogether

[uncut holly]

The whole thing with Hornet when in the position of Grand Mother Silk being compelled to do what she did does bring up some questions, how much GMS can be blamed for.

[timber pond]

Hornet has not other choice. Unless she leaves. But then she would abandon the bugs in Pharloom she has Grown to like

[uncut holly]

The Weavers also have a sort of superiority complex similar to that of GMS, in that they felt they had the rite to decide the fates of lesser beings. So the apple never fell far from the tree, even though the Weavers put GMS to sleep with the music.

[timber pond]

Again void is about Change and how to Change from regrets. It constantly Changes.

[flat kernel]

Hornet loves sherma and the bugs in bellhart

[sinful nimbus]

No its one component of change, which is ending the old thing

Void doesn't change its a primordial thematic force

[timber pond]

But it Can be made to because the Vessels Can.

[uncut holly]

The Weavers deified themselves, most Weavers where very powerful and also seen as malevolent, even according to Shakra their clan told stories of Weavers and what they did.

Not all Weavers where bad, the ones who left where alright but they had a bad rep

[spark valve]

The ‘change’ the knight uses void to enact is the kingdom’s end

[quartz flicker]

There is lore that indicates that Weavers were regarded as healers at some point in the past.

[uncut holly]

Oh yeah they where deified with all different titles and things. But some Weavers were really really bad, and they can all be blamed for the creation of the Citadel

[sinful nimbus]

Diegetically sure but the vessels "changing" has never impacted the voids thematic relevance

[timber pond]

Yes. But Silksong proves he himsself can Continue to change along with those choices.

[honest spade]

the vessels are different though, and from what i remember, only the knight actually unites the void. the void itself is empty and only brings about the end. that's why it was sealed in HK and Hornet gets so pissed off at the Snail Shamans when she found out they used it

[uncut holly]

It would be really nice if we could track the actions of individual Weavers and what they did, but I dont really think we can.

We dont even know the real name of the First Sinner

[timber pond]

If The void is united Under the void heart. Sure it can. as long as the Knight Cares really.

[sinful nimbus]

Void in SS isn't under TK's command

Also the point isn't for TK to change, after the events of DNM TK just rests in the abyss

[timber pond]

true, but it was never the void itself that ever did the changing was it? there is always someone using it.

[sinful nimbus]

Void is about the rest not the actual change that rest brings about

[uncut holly]

We meet Widow and the First Sinner, Widow was likely their musician, and clearly has some kind of conflict that had them punished by the Weavers for being loyal to GMS somehow. First Sinner is p robably someone incredibly important but I currently dont know where to place them and also what their actual name is.

The Weavenests are named after famous Weavers, the Memorials are also noteable Weavers.

Unfortunately most of the memorial plaques are destroyed.

We only have 3

[timber pond]

Void never actually does anything by itself. ITs always a force using it To express its grievance with its station.

[honest spade]

yuh

[sinful nimbus]

Void doesn't do anything because its base instinct is to rest yes

TK uses it on a broader scale to let the whole kingdom rest

That's what void is representative of

[timber pond]

So Basically anything that uses it must be alive and have a will of its own that adapts and changes.

[sinful nimbus]

There's no real thematic reason for The Knight's will to change after it kills Radiance because its in rest

[timber pond]

If there is someone using it then it will never be at rest, therefore. GMS, The pale King, the knight Steel Hearts Ect use it FOR SOMETHING

[timber pond]

Hornet helping it overcomes that rest.

[honest spade]

though i feel the void itself is NOT at rest. The voidheart's description implies that void must be chaotic for it to be united

[spark valve]

Onto nothing

[timber pond]

it is something beyond the empty. Love.

[sinful nimbus]

That'd be kinda bad writing 🥴

The vessels resting is the ideal they are not meant to be something more

Because Hallownest as a whole was laid to rest

[timber pond]

Ah yes because remaining Indffrent is good writing??? No. Change is universal, even in the thing that desires rest.

[sinful nimbus]

The dead don't change

[honest spade]

they dream lol

[sinful nimbus]

Change is not universal for the substance representative of being at eternal rest

[timber pond]

DING DING DING

[timber pond]

The whole plot debates this

[sinful nimbus]

Well a big part of Hollow Knight is putting those dreams to rest too

It does not

[timber pond]

The Dead do change, move,go somewhere ,do something.

No matter what the world changes

even if the void tries to claim it time and time again

[sinful nimbus]

This is not really true

[timber pond]

It is, and that is where we dissagree.

[sinful nimbus]

The dead living on is considered a BAD THING that the VILLAIN does

The goal is to put them to rest

[timber pond]

Not in this context. The dead change into something else. Thats how life works.

[sinful nimbus]

How do they change into something else

[timber pond]

Your bones return to soil, into the tree, into the fruit, The living eat the fruit. It goes on your essence is never truly gone.

[sinful nimbus]

This isn't an established theme of HK

[timber pond]

The void and the knight are never truly gone. that is thier station within the nothing.

[sinful nimbus]

The view HK takes is that impermanence is natural and trying to defy that is a bad thing

"To rally against nature is folly, all things must accept an end"

[timber pond]

It is how i view it and therefore good writing 🙂

[sinful nimbus]

How you view it is irrelevant its not how HK is

[timber pond]

It is not a defiance it is a cycle

[timber pond]

True. Ends are just new beginings.

[uncut holly]

I mean it would make sense if they never showed us the Kingdom of Hallownest afterward, it leaves it open and interpretations to be made. Its not supposed to be Hallownest anymore though the Pale King tried to keep his kingdom immortal and in doing so bought it a few more years then left it to perpetual stasis. I dont think its much of a kingdom anymore.

[sinful nimbus]

For different things

[muted lantern]

What is this debate about

[sinful nimbus]

The themes of Hollow Knight

[timber pond]

But the things that have existed before will still be there, influcinceing the new. Its never truly gone, The tapestry of history lives even in the smallest of things, in the smallest of souls.

[uncut holly]

Hallownest isnt really a kingdom anymore at the time of the game, its a dead kingdom, or a open kingdom shell but its not really a living kingdom. No society lives there no besides the Mantis's really. Who where extremely long lived and unmoving themself with an extremely rich history.

[muted lantern]

There's a lotta those, which ones

[uncut holly]

Mantis's never became part of the Kingdom of Hallownest, so they didnt die with it.

[honest spade]

imo Hallownest felt like witnessing a fallen kingdom, while Pharloom feels more like witnessing that fall.

I do agree that hk was about letting a dead kingdom finally rest. meanwhile ss is more about stopping a kingdom from that fate. Which ties really neatly with Hornet having witnessed her home kingdom and not letting it happen again

[sinful nimbus]

Show me where HK takes this stance

[muted lantern]

Pharloom as a kingdom did die, and it needed to, but the people who remain can make something different

[honest spade]

End of the Beginning
OMG

[muted lantern]

It's pretty normal for sequels to explore different themes, even opposing ones that can coexist

[uncut holly]

I dont think that Pharloom when we see it in game died, the Void incident did kill it. But before that it was a kingdom in crisis.

So the Void did fulfill a narrative role of killing a kingdom

[sinful nimbus]

This has little to do with the message you replied to

[uncut holly]

It was entirely on accident on the Voids part it doesnt have any mind to try and attempt to do so, it was entirely incidental.

[muted lantern]

Responding to the convo in general

[timber pond]

Its obvious. That physical place, that world. Its still there, There are new bugs living in it. The old is laid to rest, But the new builds upon it. Just like hallownest was bulit upon that Ancient civilization.

[sinful nimbus]

This is not what you claimed

[brisk seal]

pharloom, hornet, attack, thats the whole game summarized

[sinful nimbus]

Yes whatever comes next will be built off of the old remains of Hallownest, no this does not mean the void is subject to fundamental change

[uncut holly]

Thank you Pale King in all of your wise wisdom

[sinful nimbus]

And no it does not mean those that are laid to rest will come back or change

[timber pond]

It is in essence. The old dies and the new are born from it, but "you" the old one will be within the New in some way. That is Love, That is Hope.

[silk dirge]

yeah i feel like this works well with silksong being a sort of counterpoint to hk

[sinful nimbus]

Neither game takes this stance

[silk dirge]

with ascending instead of descending

[muted lantern]

How do you spoil images?

[spark valve]

Holy yap

[brisk seal]

For mobile press and hold the image, for pc there should be a little button when you hover on it or displays by itself

[timber pond]

It does Within its Myth.

[honest spade]

thankfully Hornet was there to stop that disaster.. . . ignoring the fact that she was also the reason for said disaster but lmao

[sinful nimbus]

Elaborate

[timber pond]

I didnt even type that much there.

[brisk seal]

Can't remember which one

[sinful nimbus]

Yap is not about the quantity of the message but rather the substance

[muted lantern]

Alright this is a big spoiler but I think it resolves the debate nicely:

[uncut holly]

Id say Hallownest was long long dead and we just stopped the cycle of perpetuation so it can move one.

Id say Pharloom is in an active crisis, it dies in Act 3, but its way faster than anything the Pale King caused just due to type of disaster that happened. I think GMS might have done this similar type of thing back in the old days when they first arrived, we dont know if they did the type of stuff we see here, but we do know it was better fought back against.

[honest spade]

yea. SS is all about Hornet.

[brisk seal]

yap yap yap yap

[sinful nimbus]

PK pfp and spams yap. Welcome back Kirb.

[brisk seal]

whos kirb?

[silk dirge]

i feel like it dies in act 3 but its still like "saveable"

like you can save most of the lives that live there

[silk dirge]

where hallownest its just over

[sinful nimbus]

Void isn't supposed to be a catastrophe

[silk dirge]

you are not saving most of the people who live there bc theyre already dead

[brisk seal]

[sinful nimbus]

It frees the kingdoms its not what kills them

[lusty cove]

chat lore question what did first sinner do exactly besides "just heresy"

[sinful nimbus]

They opposed GMS saying that weavers were divine daughters

[brisk seal]

I will now be permanently borrowing this form for.. king purposes

[shy quartz]

Yo Guys. Is there like a document of gathered lore anyone been working on?

[tropic arrow]

I am working on a post, though it's my own interpretation, theories and, where needed, assumptions

[lusty cove]

i see ty
are weavers divine daughters?

[tropic arrow]

Then again, that's just how Hollow Knight and Silksong lore be. Many interpretations are possible.

[timber pond]

The Forces that evoke these changes These things are constant, they will not change. The void Will always evoke change because whatever is new will always use it to End something prior. The Cycle will continue, what is "new" and what is "old" are very much not that different in reality, this situation will come back around again in time. But through the slight changes, the minor actions that take place within the story or "Myth" of the game Will lead to a better outcome.

That better outcome is represented in silksong, where hornet can stop the kingdoms people from completely dying.

[sinful nimbus]

They are pharlids modified by GMS

[shy quartz]

Exactly that's still good. Cuz I have an idea about certain lore but I still have too many questions

[lusty cove]

ohhh right there was that cutscene
ok ty this makes sense now 🙏 goated ty

[sinful nimbus]

I was asking for proof on when HK takes this stance not for a repeat of what you have already said

What the heck is "the myth" dawg

[tropic arrow]

Grand Mother Silk told the Weavers that they were her divine children. First Sinner discovered they were, in fact, uplifted from the local pharlids, and were not her children as she said.

First Sinner was found guilty of apostasy, which is the abandonment of one's religious belief(s)

[honest spade]

no?
it doesnt. Hornet literally talks about her distaste of the use of void and describes it as a destructive force of doom. It is in tandem with how it's portrayed in Hk as a force so dark and powerful that it's locked underneath the kingdom (heck, even your shade attacks you, and it's made of void)
what makes you think it "frees kingdoms"
Void was only not a catastrophe in Hallownest because the kingdom (and our goat pale king) handled it wisely

[shy quartz]

So First Sinner basically did nothing wrong? Why'd she wanna attack us then?

[lusty cove]

i see
that then makes sense with the whole gm silk creating lace mother complex whatever thingy
okok cool yaay ty

[tropic arrow]

testing us

[sinful nimbus]

Void was never "locked underneath the kingdom"

[silk dirge]

shes testing you basically

[timber pond]

The myth of the story. Every story is a myth. Civlizations rising and falling and repeating mistakes, Only the small things being different within those myths changing the outcome for the next time. When HK takes this stance? the entire Myth of the game is this stance.

[silk dirge]

ok what are you even talking about this point

im a big starpengu disagreer but this is just yap

[long osprey]

does anyone remember where hornet's cell/carriage is located?

[sinful nimbus]

I agree the game is about civilizations rising and falling

But like... this doesn't address anything I said

[timber pond]

Thematics. This is why i don't talk about it Because It this is the endpoint of it.

[timber pond]

Ok it takes this stance when the vvoid is introduced, when nothing consumes a kingdom and a husk remains.

[honest spade]

yea i know not void but i mean the abyss lol.
mb abt that. but basically still, its locked so that only the king can access it in hallownest

[timber pond]

There ,simpel terms

[sinful nimbus]

Void doesn't do that

[timber pond]

It does when it matters. And it only matters when theres a will behind it.

[sinful nimbus]

Sure but it wasn't locked before then and nothing happened because Void chills (and in fact is implied to actively be receding) unless provoked

[silk dirge]

also guys i dont think im buying the acmi zine 💔 https://shop.acmi.net.au/products/acmi-guide-hollow-knight-silk-song-softcover

[sinful nimbus]

Void is hostile yes but only when its rest is obstructed

[honest spade]

void is literally emptiness embodied. What do you mean it "frees kingdoms"?
its literally the most destructive force in HK universe!

[sinful nimbus]

It does not actively seek out to destroy kingdoms (Heck that's not even what it does in Silksong)

[silk dirge]

i really want to get it but shipping is over double the cost of the actual item wtf 😭

[shy quartz]

How did a place like Verdania crumble and the whole tribe going extinct? I knew it was something from the past but dunno what actually caused it

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't destroy jack in Hollow Knight other than the Radiance

To reiterate what I said previously in the conversation:

Its tied thematically to the regrets of Hallownest and more specifically the Pale King multiple times

Getting Void Heart is representative of coming to terms with your regrets and the past

Coming to terms with the past is what allows The Knight to take responsibility for the future and free the kingdom from its stasis, placing void as representative of the end (Which is corroborated by it being referred to in terms of absence throughout the game)

Void was a force of good in HK and its neutral at best in SS

[timber pond]

Yes and such is the folly Of the living, and their various uses for annihilation. It will always consume and take When tehre are Pale beings to use it. "the Darkness below our house" as the white lady says.

The pale beings are what do actively destroy kingdoms and they end up always coming back to void in one way or another

[sinful nimbus]

bro what

I can't anymore what 😭

[silk dirge]

what are we even saying here

[shy quartz]

The idea of Void existing opposes the existence of Gods. It's kinda like a ying yang.

[silk dirge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/924457324800798731/1412970963468947609/i9pzw7xyeymf1.gif?ex=68ceaa81&is=68cd5901&hm=ab1379028e5550aebf4858db422573c4981604d3f948413e454052bb1f20b0f3&

[timber pond]

THe white Lady in SS establishes that the Pale beings and the void are interlinked throughout history in Red memory

[sinful nimbus]

She specifically says our family iirc which is obviously a nod to the vessels

[silk dirge]

i think she means bc they messed with void for vessels

[shy quartz]

Yeh I could get behind this

[timber pond]

Exactly, likely since they both originated

Why else does the Everbloom exist?

[silk dirge]

that being said i would not be surprised if void is supposed to be a sort of "chaos" similar to greek mythology out of which everything is created

but we dont have anything confirming that

[timber pond]

This is what i think. Pale beings are very much like Greek Gods

Them and the void exist in constant tandem as annihilation and creation.

LOrd of shades could be like Hades too. As per the Radiances "ancient enemy" line

[shy quartz]

We did see a glimpse of the lord of Shades along with the rest of the shades in SS act 3 ending.

[honest spade]

that's because it's not used anywhere else other than to fight the Radiance? And are you forgeting that our shade is literally made of void and it attacks you on SIGHT. The void hurts you unless you got the Voidheart. And the entrance to access the domain of void, The abyss, in Hallownest is literally locked behind a big metal door that can ONLY be opened by the King of Hallowest. And the Godhome ending where the Void leaks out from Godseeker violently.
No red flags? Apparently Kingdom Savior omg use void save kingdoms kill bad gods wow.

Void does not actively seek out destruction ever (and i dont recall ever claiming it so) but it is a very destructive force that CAN AND WILL annihilate everything it touches if used irresponsibly (like the Snail Shamans did).

[sinful nimbus]

The shade isn't canon

[silk dirge]

its an interesting thought but i dont think its confirmed anywhere

[sinful nimbus]

The shade mechanic was actually made way before void was conceptualized

[silk dirge]

so does that mean steel soul is canonical

[sinful nimbus]

The abyss was locked behind because of the vessel project

That's also not true of the godseeker ending

DNM does the same thing then it immediately recedes and chills in the abyss

[timber pond]

Yea that is pure speculation. But with the existence of everblooms as an established source tow ard off darkness and such, its what i believe.

[sinful nimbus]

Diegetically what it does in Silksong makes sense yes I acknowledge that

But my argument is that its incredibly nonsensical on a thematic level

[timber pond]

They mad eit cannon through that development though

[sonic dawn]

i just thought of something, one of the knights in hollow knight is said to come from a far land and that she brought a white flower with her, and we see white flowers in the cradle in pharloom, could she be from pharloom?

"Mysterious Ze’mer arrived in Hallownest from a serene land, bringing with her a collection of delicate flowers."

[timber pond]

just because something comes first dosent mean its non cannon

[sinful nimbus]

Those are different flowers

[silk dirge]

i dont think those flowers are everbloom

[sinful nimbus]

Pharloomians also don't have the same dialect

[sonic dawn]

damn

[tropic arrow]

The everbloom does not take root in Pharloom

The snail shamans make that clear

[silk dirge]

just bc a flower is white does not mean its an everbloom

is this flower racism

[tropic arrow]

Yes. They are, alas, not French.

[sly pendant]

Lifeblood would be worse than radiance if it could gain enough power to expand ?

[shy quartz]

I'm assuming the vessels manage to find a secret way out of the abyss after it was closed. The secret passage probably through deepnest where Nosk started preying on them. idk.

[honest spade]

it is canon.

[sinful nimbus]

The shade is canon how it interacts with you in HK is almost certainly not canon because respawning isn't canon

Why would the knight attack itself 🥴

[silk dirge]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1nkkr6y/found_some_disturbing_lore_implications/

france canonically exists in bug world

[tropic arrow]

https://tenor.com/view/vader-noooo-gif-4825231

I can no longer like Trobbio

[timber pond]

Lord of shades is the same princple as this. Godhome just shows us its probably something the knight can do with the void heart. So the 3 Trueer endings can all be
cannon (unless THK shows up at some point independent of returning to the void)

[honest spade]

no? what theme do you imagine the void represents? it represents emptiness, hollow, in HK (imo). and it was shown the misuse of that force in SS, and i think that it was neat.

[sinful nimbus]

.

[timber pond]

I mean, it did Likely Destroy the Ancient Civilization Due to their Obsession.

[rain spindle]

it behaves differently in pharloom because the atrocities are different. thematically yhr abyss reprsents regrets and thats why it exists in every kingdom

[honest spade]

the same thing can embody multiple themes in different stories. How boring it would be if rain only ever was associated with sad scenes. That is very common yes, but that is not a limit.
The void is thematically different in Silksong, and that is GOOD. Pharloom is a different story, it's not about the knight anymore, so the void will indeed no longer hold the same meaning to Hornet as it did to the Knight

[sinful nimbus]

So why include it in the first place

[timber pond]

Because its the same Universe? lol

[sinful nimbus]

Being in the same universe does not entail rehashing elements for no reason

[silk dirge]

why would you include rain if not to represent a sad scene?

[timber pond]

yeah but we just established a reason

[sinful nimbus]

What is the reason

[honest spade]

A red sun can mean different things to different people.
Arguing that the setting sun must always mean the same thing to EVERYONE is what is nonesensical

[sinful nimbus]

Well for a game focused on discovery its quite a shame that one of the core elements ended up being the same

[silk dirge]

i mean i would argue void does represent the same thing actually bc the ending of hk is inherently neutral bc nothing you are doing will allow the people of hallownest to thrive again bc theyre all dead

[timber pond]

The anatomy of the world is not going to change. Like Socks says the thing will still always be there and represent diffrent things to diffrent pepole at diffrent points

[vague whale]

that's so true

[sinful nimbus]

Void was never implied to always be in every kingdom

And in fact its inclusion retcons how Void Heart works so if anything it was the opposite

[silk dirge]

where in silksong your actions can make the people of pharloom thrive again

[timber pond]

Also true

[sinful nimbus]

So like, the inclusion of void is unoriginal, thematically incoherent, and inconsistent with the first game. Its not good

[brave raven]

hi I have a question anyone on why lumaflies are present in all the world

[silk dirge]

i think this is a really dumb argument to make when more kingdoms didnt even exist until 2018

[brave raven]

like both ss and hk

[timber pond]

Its an exploored idea. what in hollow knight says this cannot be the case?

[lucid pasture]

i dont think any of the endings in og hollow knight are framed as good anyways, they are depicted as tragedies. silksong has a good ending and somewhat is about hornet showing a way things can be different. Its not that hard to understand

[sinful nimbus]

Well ants are on most continents irl too

[silk dirge]

yeah this is how i see it

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't explore the idea

[timber pond]

I think the ones in silksong are diffrent.

[sinful nimbus]

"Woaaah its the thing from the first game isn't that so cool" isn't exploring an idea its rehashing stuff for hype moments and aura

[brave raven]

I genuinely think is a important question specially due to what happens to the Seer at the end of HK

[silk dirge]

hollow knights "true" endings are bittersweet

[timber pond]

Well if hornet says it is possible that its everywhere if you dig deep enough , then yes it does?😂

[silk dirge]

silksongs true ending is good

[sinful nimbus]

I'm talking narratively

[lucid pasture]

i dont think its rehashing anything though because Hollow Knight endings were never depicted as good at all, they were tragedies

[sinful nimbus]

Dream No More and ETV were very good

[timber pond]

.

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't embody much of anything in Silksong

SS has hardly any interesting or new themes

[silk dirge]

i would argue yeah in the context of what you are trying to do in the game but objectively they are bittersweet

[random sorrel]

dude City of Steel DLC is gonna RULE

[sinful nimbus]

shrue...

[timber pond]

Laces despair?, regret of not being a good mother in GMS? The shamans Practically giving up on everyone?

[lucid pasture]

they were not good imo they are tragic. it ended up that way because pale king didnt deal with things the best way he could have, or mother, creating vessels for sacrifice was always depicted as an "evil" thing

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah none of these are even hinted at

[timber pond]

Lace Implies she hates her mother in her first fight lmao.

[sinful nimbus]

No it wasn't

PK was up against an impossible task

[sinful nimbus]

...I know

[lucid pasture]

Do you genuinely saw the area with 18838183 vessels broken and thought "oh pale king was right on doing this"

[timber pond]

The bell hermit Is a nihilist, The caretaker hates pepole and the crone excludes herself from the pilgrims

[sinful nimbus]

He was yes

[lucid pasture]

LOL

[sinful nimbus]

The point isn't that he was wrong its that what he was doing was impossible

You can't make an eternal kingdom

[vague whale]

No way bro

[sinful nimbus]

Google the trolley problem really quick

Won't take more than 20 seconds and will save a ton of time

[vague whale]

Yeah the whole point is that it's a problem

[sinful nimbus]

It has a pretty clear ethical solution

[timber pond]

.... A trolley porblem he crated himself?

[lucid pasture]

it being a trolley problem or not doesnt change that he took an horrible option to solve it.

[brave raven]

really in HK the Seer becomes a lumafly with essence, wich is dreams and wishes, the lumaflies liberate Hornet at the start of the game and you don't think is interesting?

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance did that

[timber pond]

He is not irresponsible though.

[vague whale]

The entire point is that if you do that you have killed someone

[sinful nimbus]

Oh that's not a lumafly at the start of the game its a different type of fly

[sinful nimbus]

To minimize suffering

Are we fr pretending the trolley problem doesn't have a clear better option in the big 25

[brave raven]

what is it?

[sinful nimbus]

They're a new type of species that can break seals and stuff, iirc they're made out of silk?

[lethal burrow]

So what are the major questions at the moment people are still trying to figure out the answer

[sinful nimbus]

Mostly GMS's actions

[teal finch]

im ngl i also thought void inclusion was mostly for aura and hype moments but the whole point of the trolley problem is that it is an ethical issue with no actual solution.

[vague whale]

Not what I'm saying, I'm saying that even that option involves you killing someone you deem a necessary sacrifice

[wheat locust]

I wouldn't say he was doing the right thing
I would say he was doing the only thing he could think of, it was a desperate attempt to save his dying kingdom and keep the people left alive and safe in some way, it wasn't the best route I wouldn't say nor a good thing to do but it was an idea that could fix things and minimize the kingdoms suffering, it's just the process he took was quite a bad way in moral standards

[lethal burrow]

OK, but I was hoping we could maybe be slightly more specific than that

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

But minimizing the amount of lives lost is the clear better option so idk why we're saying PK was in the wrong for trying to do that

[sinful nimbus]

Why was Phantom abandoned, why did the weavers hate her

[lethal burrow]

he had good intentions, but was pushed to desperate measures.

It seems like he really did love his people and tried to save them the best he could.

The path to hell is paved with good intentions, somewhat literally in this case with the abyss and all that.

[timber pond]

Because the whole Scenario both he and the Radiance Crated is Wrong in itself?

[teal finch]

generally, piecing a detailed timeline of the events

[sinful nimbus]

It was Radiance's fault

[vague whale]

A trolley problem is inherently bad

[timber pond]

No they were equally at fault.

[sinful nimbus]

PK wasn't the one torturing and killing his entire kingdom

[lucid pasture]

i think what the pale king choose was not a good option at all though and it was not depicted as good ever since first HK. The Knight existence was always tragic - they were carrying a burden they shouldnt have been carrying. Radiance was the major problem but she was also somewhat provoked by pale king to begin with, pale king was somewhat doing colonization shit. Silksong is about Hornet finding a way of doing things that isnt as fucked up as pale king did somewhat too lol

[timber pond]

He put his kingdom on a native peoples land😂 .

[sinful nimbus]

"colonization" is loaded language that implies his relationships with his neighbors were anything but diplomatic and willing

[sinful nimbus]

No he didn't

We're really just making stuff up now

Its true the vessel project was tragic but acting like PK was in the wrong or that it makes DNM not a good ending is insane

[wheat locust]

He didn't, he gave all bugs sentience did he not? If I remember right he acted as a light and guide for those he gave sentience

[sinful nimbus]

Are we going to claim any ending about banishing evil isn't happy because the evil existed in the first place

Because in that case most happy endings disappear

[timber pond]

If we assume Crystal peak is the Moth peoples home, then he did turn it into a mine eventually through socio economic factors by absorbing the moth peoples tribe?

[sinful nimbus]

Moths willingly joined him they probably didn't care

[foggy fractal]

hey what happened to #1 Groal Fan ?

[sinful nimbus]

Exhausted Pilgrim mogs him 😔

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/dragon-ball-dragon-ball-super-goku-goku-ultra-instinct-ui-gif-10017138207648182009

[timber pond]

No, they forgot to care. Its not that they didnt. They just adapted to the times.

They went with the whole.

[lethal burrow]

here's a moral question.

With two baseline assumptions, I want to ask you all something.

1. • Let's assume for the thoughts of this hypothetical that the pale Kings plan actually would have worked, obviously it did actually fail in reality, but let's just assume for this little scenario that for all intensive purposes, it would have been successful if done.
2. • let us assume for the purposes of this hypothetical that there was no alternative way of combatting the infection and the radiance, this was the only way for the purposes of this theoretical scenario.

The question now is: is the pale king in the right within this scenario? Did he do the right thing?

Or would it have been better to let it all fall to that plague?

||I ask this not to argue the "correctness" of the pale king but to put you in the mindspace of his decision making. Obviously there was no good outcome in this situation, Every angle was fucked.||

[sinful nimbus]

So there was no opposition to what he did from the people living there... What was the issue?

No one cared

[timber pond]

There were. Markoth, Xeno, The seer. The old ways Were Diplomaticaly Pushed out.

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

Xero ain't even a moth vro 💔

[timber pond]

They literally talk about raising thier nails against the king😂

[sinful nimbus]

Markoth and Seer do not

[timber pond]

Markoth is his master

[sinful nimbus]

Proof

[left oyster]

(The Pale King also presumably found records of the Ancient Caste attempting to rid themselves of emotion, which probably was what ultimately nudged him into that direction)

[ancient sinew]

What’s so great about exhausted pilgrim

[lethal burrow]

as far as I know, there's nothing in the game to suggest the pale king coerced the moth tribe to follow him beyond just being another bright light powerful being.

There's no indication that he was intentionally drawing them away from the radiance or anything. It seems like that's something they did willingly of their own accord.
thus the old "sin" seer perceives.

[honest spade]

i find it funny that when void was coming to terms with your regrets in HK, yet in SS it is more about it BEING Hornet's regrets. Hornet clearly doesn't like the use (or being near the void), so it being the reason that the kingdom she was trying to save getting destroyed is quite the shock for her. She repeatedly expresses her resentment towards the fact that she caused the kingdom's downfall, and it was due to something she was well aware of the dangers of.
When she brings the flower from her memories, she gains new resolve to correct her mistakes and face the obstacles she had been avoiding/hating.
So void was the past haunting Hornet. Coming in full doom when she thought she had freed the kingdom of it's cursed, only to be met by the thing of her nightmares and witnessing losing the ones she came to care for. When Hornet dove into the abyss with the flower, the flower was mostly intact because Hornet was still confident. But after witnessing everything the void had done to Lace, Hornet's past caught up to her again, and the flower indeed disintegrated (it was a construct of her memories, so it makes sense)

But honestly, i can be wrong. The game actually have only been out for like what, 2 weeks? and the scale of the game is huge. So much undiscovered things, meaning still not understood of the things discovered, etc. i think i have only beaten it twice (and maybe a couple speedruns) so that is still not enough to completely draw conclusions. Not for me at least
so ye

i end my yap now and go to sleep lol

[sinful nimbus]

He really adds much needed depth to the Halfway Home

[foggy fractal]

?

[ancient sinew]

Well I think Crawfather is much better

[sinful nimbus]

Really I'm quite dissapointed that Creige has little dialogue and Nuu and Exhausted Pilgrim eventually end up leaving

Thanks for ruining the best area in the game TC smh

[left oyster]

"Hey, looking at her light is cool and all, but like, there's this new guy, and he's got... Capitalism."

"Wait, shit, fr?"

basically the moth tribe

[ancient sinew]

It’s only the best area in the game because the Craws are there

[sinful nimbus]

If I was William Pellen I'd have put a minigame there and made 5 new NPCs with hundreds of pieces of dialogue

[silk dirge]

and thats why i believe in the wider world of things dnm is bittersweet

[silk dirge]

nuu kiss dodge minigame

[left oyster]

Nuu Dodge

[ancient sinew]

If not for the Craws Greymoor would be GreyMID

[sinful nimbus]

Greymoor has Kratt though

[timber pond]

Xero*

[left oyster]

Greymoor's also when you meet THE GUY

you know

the GUY

[silk dirge]

can we all collectively agree tho the flea that was doping in the festival shouldve been banned

that shits not fair your not allowed to do that

[sinful nimbus]

Why does Hornet hating void add anything to her character

[silk dirge]

not like he was ever hard to deal with

[sinful nimbus]

Reasons why Hornet is an idiot #527

[foggy fractal]

what would be the 528th reason ?

[silk dirge]

but the fleas clearly have relaxed rules

[ancient sinew]

Kratt is awful

[silk dirge]

idk about the integrity of the flea festival

[left oyster]

anyway it would be so cool if the third installment in the series had THK as the protagonist

Hollow Knight: It's Actually The Protagonist's Name This Time

[silk dirge]

quirrel squirrel

[lucid pasture]

i simply dont think Hollow Knight had any good endings lol. DNM was the less worse one but it was never good. It was simply tragic. Im not going to say how else pale king could have saved his kingdom or not lol but it is a matter of fact that what he did has to be seen as fucking evil. theres no hypotethical place where killing 1 million children would be justifiable lol. even in a supposes trolley problem this would be viewed as tragical and evil.
If we take Silksong into account it gets more obvious because it kinda posits that Pale King didnt take the best actions he could have, Hornet expresses hatred towards pale beings all the way through (and she ovviously also means her father) so i think its fair to assume that was NOT the best course of actions that could have happened in that kingdom lol.

[sinful nimbus]

She's weaverspawn

[foggy fractal]

we should lowkey make these memes but with Hornet
HORNET reportedly FORGOT that PALE KING could make the VOID do his BIDDING (Wingmoulds Kingmoulds)

[timber pond]

Nothing Directly tying Xero To markoth. But markoth Does mention That his past encounters with all of the above.

Also the seer has that long ass Dialogue about how she still Remembers and respects the radiance despite the pale kings rule. Does that make her wrong? No, it does not.

[left oyster]

Pale King had a ton of sex and that ultimately led to both Hallownest and Pharloom being saved so

He's just THAT GUY

[ancient sinew]

I am sorry to say this and please don’t take it as an insult but it seems as though you missed the entire point of the game

[sinful nimbus]

Morality is a system meant to minimize suffering so even though killing (really aborting) multiple people is bad its still for the greater good

[lucid pasture]

i dont think i did but ok

[left oyster]

Pale King's entire plan was sex but with magic involved

[sinful nimbus]

Seer never says anything of the sort

[ancient sinew]

The view HK takes is that death is a form of purification, DNM is bittersweet yes but it is a good ending precisely because it allows the dead kingdom to rest

[boreal veldt]

Is there any reason green prince is locked in sinner road lol? Did he lock himself outta shame? Also why did the citadel destroy his kingdom? Was it the architects?

[ancient sinew]

HK was never about saving Hallownest, Hallownest died long before the beginning of the game

[silk dirge]

yeah this is my logic

[sinful nimbus]

"death is a form of purification" who invited the edgelord 😭

[wild zinc]

Being gay is illegal in pharloom have you seen how religious the kingdom is

[ancient sinew]

It’s about freeing the rotting corpse of the kingdom from its stasis

[reef violet]

Hollow Knight: The Hollow Knight

[left oyster]

Grand Mother Silk reportedly HOMOPHOBIC

[lucid pasture]

yes? I never denied that. Its still tragic and it doesnt have a good ending lol

[silk dirge]

death is like objectively bad imo so thats why hk is tragic to me

[ancient sinew]

It is a good ending in the context of the game

[honest spade]

"oh and he basically also upgrades your brain from a intel celeron to an i9 (latest generation)!"

":O OH MY GOSH!"
-# lmao idk, i always wanted to do this joke

[lucid pasture]

yes same

[silk dirge]

in the context of setting a dead kingdom to rest

[ancient sinew]

Death is not objectively bad

[silk dirge]

its a good ending

[lucid pasture]

it is to me

[timber pond]

Its her last dialogue. She calls her ancestors fickle. and says this Fractured kingodm is a result of thier actions

[silk dirge]

i mean the way it was portrayed in hk

[ancient sinew]

All things die eventually, HK is a story about coming to terms with that fact

[lethal burrow]

what about godhome flower.

[sinful nimbus]

Bro does not respect radiance at all

[ancient sinew]

Death is not an inherently bad thing

[sinful nimbus]

She's basically just dissing the moths not PK

[ancient sinew]

Hallownest was supposed to die long ago, what PK did defied the natural order

[lethal burrow]

According to who

[silk dirge]

the way the vessels were done in hk is portrayed as pretty inherently bad to me

[lethal burrow]

yeah, it's not great.

[sinful nimbus]

Vespa

[left oyster]

The last follower of the Radiance and even she goes: "Yeah go kill that bitch she sucks"

[lethal burrow]

yeah, but she's not the arbiter of what's natural.

[sinful nimbus]

"To rally against nature is folly, all things must accept an end"
Even PK's own lore tablet claims that he was denying time with the vessel project

[timber pond]

She acknowledges That If the radiance were respected, even in the slightest, none of this shit would have happend.

[honest spade]

. . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . .

are you fr?

a person hating something adds a LOT to their character. The fact that I dislike spices with all my heart will be quite important if i went out on a date with a person who adores chillies, for example

[sinful nimbus]

That is a different thing actually

[ancient sinew]

That is quite literally the main theme of the game. PK’s hubris, the dream of an eternal kingdom, “to rail against nature is folly, all things must accept an end”, “ages pass and kingdoms fall”, “better, an end”

[boreal veldt]

True pale king was a piece of shit regardless, it’s like how queen vespa said don’t fight nature, he tried to make hallow nest eternal and failed, and was completely wrong abt void all of those vessels had feelings.

Wonder how far his foresight was, did he foresee the knight stopping radiance

[lucid pasture]

qhy should i accept what a lore table says lol

[sinful nimbus]

Because these things were put in the game for a reason

[ancient sinew]

It’s not even just her

[silk dirge]

thats the whole deal with foresight

you can foresee a future and you can try to avoid it but it will happen

[ancient sinew]

Vespa is the most direct, but Monomon, Mister Mushroom, and others have very similar dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

If multiple sources say that maybe eternal kingdoms are impossible and stupid maybe the devs are trying to give you a hint

[foggy fractal]

so all Weavers are stupid ? are you racist towards the Weavers ??? not cool. mods !

[ancient sinew]

“what good to foresee a demise unaboidable”

[lucid pasture]

they were put in the game to showcase viewpoints, not to make you see them and agree 100% with them

[spark valve]

unaboidable

[boreal veldt]

Yes but I wanna know if he foresaw the knight saving hallownest it’s confirmed he knew hallownesy was about to fall but it’s never stated how far he could see

[ancient sinew]

I think this is really a media literacy moment ngl

[sinful nimbus]

Media literacy moment 💔

[spark valve]

so true

[ancient sinew]

SNAIL

[sinful nimbus]

Lore regulars have 1 braincell

[honest spade]

and Hornet's dislike for void stems from the Pale King (implied), so its even more important than just "character A hates thing B"

[sinful nimbus]

Why does she hate PK

[ancient sinew]

No reason

[sinful nimbus]

Making a character stupid for no reason kinda dampens the plot ngl

[timber pond]

If she wasn't forgotten she wouldn't have "made the bugs dream of her" because its in a pale beings nature to dominate. If pale king respected radiance at all, why didnt he use diplomacy?

[boreal veldt]

Ass father tbh

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King wasn't the one who forgot her

[silk dirge]

pk does not seem like a good dad

[lucid pasture]

lowkey i dont disagree with anything youre saying hollow knight kinda presents that viewpoint but i simply never saw that as a good thing. its quite simple. but i think the vessels things is like portrayed as 100% objectively bad though i cant see anyone actually disagreeing with this

[ancient sinew]

PK wasn’t really a dad to Hornet though

[sinful nimbus]

Herrah wasn't a good mother either

[timber pond]

Im not saying that.

[silk dirge]

i mean she did what she could

[ancient sinew]

PK wasn’t really in her life he wasn’t supposed to be

[silk dirge]

pk couldve 100% done more to be with hornet

[sinful nimbus]

That wasn't the deal

[wild zinc]

Anyone else felt bad after killing craw father like dude was just wanted to judge you and yeah that involved killing you but Hornet did kick start the apocalypse so

[ancient sinew]

The terms of the deal were that he’d give Herrah a child, they weren’t sharing responsibility over her

[sinful nimbus]

Crawfather glaze is getting out of hand

[sacred heath]

at least she cared
at least she tried to be around
where the hell was PK huh

[robust wagon]

No, he tried to kill me!

[sinful nimbus]

We have THREE crawglazers in this channel

[silk dirge]

court of craws is like the council has decreed death

[boreal veldt]

Still an ass father

And once hallownest fell the pussy ran off to white palace and rot there taking no responsibility

I get it, he was depressed after he lost HK but still

[ancient sinew]

It’s almost like he wasn’t MEANT to be in her life

[tiny socket]

They politely invited hornet to just gang up on her

[boreal veldt]

Tbf even hornet stated in the journal he wasn’t wrong

[silk dirge]

i feel like treating pk like a completely good and flawless figure is pretty crazy

[sinful nimbus]

What responsibility could he have taken