sk-lore

[brisk finch]

Also, for anyone who missed that, with "early map" I mean this one

[edgy barn]

We need a game where lifeblood is the infection and evey enemy has the super regen

[quartz salmon]

god no

[brisk finch]

Ye the one bossfight wasn't enough XD

God, realizing First Sinner healed made me so stressed
It's not actually that bad of course, stopping her is fine
but the stress

[quartz salmon]

i imagine some people didnt figure out you need to hit zango with the plasmium phial for a quick death and were there for hours trying to kill him

[brisk finch]

You don;t have to, I did that the first time and died (low health), but the second time I just did tool spam

He doesn't resist them well XD

[high violet]

lmao i took that photo irl

[quartz salmon]

i see

[brisk finch]

That was you?! Praise be!

[high violet]

i was just looking through my phone to see hahahaha

[quartz salmon]

but he dies in 4 needle hits anyway

[brisk finch]

Could you clarify something for me? The reddit post mentions this is the first map, and it looks like it, but the date shown is 2018

[quartz salmon]

damn nice !

[high violet]

yuh

[high violet]

yeah so basically the screen was very broken, the titles weren't updating

nor were the timestamps updating

[brisk finch]

...I have some pictures to rename
But that does explain a lot, so thanks 😄

[high violet]

would you like me to give you a zip of ordered pictures

[brisk finch]

That would be lovely

[high violet]

would probably save you a lot of time

[tight zephyr]

I did in fact not know that until now 😭

[brisk finch]

TC seems allergic to posting proper pictures of their maps online, so I'm grateful for these (honestly, pretty high quality) pictures

This has now been preserved for everyone

[quartz salmon]

🥀

[high violet]

sending in dms hold up

[edgy barn]

I managed to hit him with the needle a few times but ended up killing him with tool spam. the crying attack would almost always hit me right as the needle was about to connect or when it had already connected, cancelling the animation.

[spring escarp]

No

It was more specific

Some kind of vehicle

[high violet]

also this one i havent posted online but this is the Bay Area before it got removed

[brisk finch]

If you remember a part of the phrase, feel free to share and I'll try searching for it

[high violet]

the most final version of it before it got removed at least

throughout the years the area barely updated at all, so my guess is that they just didnt really know what to do with the area

[quartz salmon]

and what year is this from? do you remember

[spring escarp]

I am trying to

But idk it is hard, I think it was some NPc line though

[brisk finch]

It's hard to tell based on the picture, but the color scheme looks Verdania-ish. Is the design otherwise reminiscent of the poop/hermit crab village?

[quartz salmon]

i can see the poop village there

above the word

[high violet]

2021, it was removed in 2022

[quartz salmon]

i see so halfway through they took it out

[tight zephyr]

I miss poop village…

[spring escarp]

Not fair, I want the Silksong map timelien digitized

someone please break intot he museum systems

[quartz salmon]

its GONNA come back

[high violet]

went from this to completely gone

[quartz salmon]

poop village forever

[spring escarp]

DUNG CASTLE

[spring escarp]

They should place the poop vilage below rhe chef lugogi kitchen

[high violet]

Verdania was added there in May 2022

[sinful nimbus]

o7

[spring escarp]

Onyl he could've poop the entire village

Was my joke that bad?

[brisk finch]

Did they give more context about this?

[quartz salmon]

no it was good im just pondering about it

[brisk finch]

Was it all one big area and then current Verdania took its place?

[high violet]

i think this is just the curator notes, not from TC

[brisk finch]

Did they give any sort of indication how much of those notes are based on TC's words when you were there?

[spring escarp]

Me when I show up and the curators hosue and there is no meat

[brisk finch]

Because yeah, if they're wrong about stuff like this,t hen that's something to discard

[glossy badger]

Dung eater

[high violet]

so basically Verdania was on the left side of the map here and got replaced with Wormways like seen here

[spring escarp]

The wormways is so fucking lameeee

[high violet]

then was added into the right side of the map in may 2022

[spring escarp]

Also verdania being right beside greymoor is kinda strange

[glossy badger]

I like it

[spring escarp]

It is is just rocks and worms

[high violet]

well we dont know what Greymoor used to look like back then

[glossy badger]

I think the lifeblood stuff is sick tho

[spring escarp]

It gets a little more interesting on act 3

[spring escarp]

Greenmoor

[spring escarp]

ye

[brisk finch]

Greymoor in 2022 we sort of do, right? It appears in official material before then

[quartz salmon]

revisiting the reveal trailer and the whisp thicket guy is in the windmill lol

[spring escarp]

Idk I feel that despite we havig more areas

[glossy badger]

I'm so glad they didn't add that

[spring escarp]

They are less variaded

[quartz salmon]

FR

[glossy badger]

Those guys are so annoying

[spring escarp]

Like, putrified ducts, bilewater and sinners road kinda look the same

High halls, choral room, memorium kinda blur together

In my head

[glossy badger]

It's understandable tho

The world building needs it

I kinda just wished those areas didn't suck

[spring escarp]

Yeha but I liked the thematic clashes in hollow knght

Maybe the dlcs will help that

[high violet]

also i genuinely cant remember but what is this blue patch in the right of Bilewater, does anyone remember?

[brisk finch]

They simply split areas into smaller chunks than HK did. There's still more areas even if you merge stuff like Cogwork Core and the Citadel+Whispering vaults
or Karak and Blasted Steps

[spring escarp]

probably the fleatopia

[quartz salmon]

this is what it would have looked like

[edgy barn]

That's where you find the body of Shakra's master

[spring escarp]

Or the part where shakra quest ends

[potent patio]

Did the fay make the fleas?

[spring escarp]

the random wormways enemies

[high violet]

ah yeah i rmeember now

[potent patio]

They look similar

[spring escarp]

Which seem kinda randomly placed

[spring escarp]

hmmm

[edgy barn]

Wait so Craggler and his kids were originally barnacle bay enemies?

[brisk finch]

the big one is shown in the Clover tileset in this trailer too

[spring escarp]

But I can merge a lot

[quartz salmon]

yup seems like it

[spring escarp]

yes

I hope they add fuckloads of silksong slcs

mroe and BIGGER and COOLER

[quartz salmon]

maybe only the kids because it seems like the big one was in verdania but then they just put them together

[high violet]

also im not sure what these areas are but they seemed to have some interesting shit going on here back then, they didnt have a place for it tho

wseems to be the lifeblood spire or whatever

[quartz salmon]

dude thats soooo cool

[spring escarp]

Maybe they will add a lifeblood apire on act 3

[glossy badger]

Lifeblood dlc confirmed

[brisk finch]

👀

[spring escarp]

besides wormways

[brisk finch]

Here we go again

[spring escarp]

Maybe the lifeblood insects will open new passages

Naturally

[tight zephyr]

We all know the first dlc is going to be the garmond memory trust 🙂‍↕️

[spring escarp]

I hope they let me scale the characther further in the dlcs I few so weakw ith max stats, the damage barely even doubles.

Only advantage is that doing the whole game without upgrades is significantly easier

Since I barely feel them anyway.

[brisk finch]

So in 2019, this would have still been on the left side of the map?

I'm trying to rearrange my brain lol

[quartz salmon]

Xylotol says his master found the plasmium in salty waters deep in pharloom so maybe we get to see that (please)

[quartz salmon]

yes absolutely

[edgy barn]

Hornet and the Knight both do the same damage with an equally upgrade weapon. Hornet feels weaker because there's no equivalent of the Strength charm in Silksong.

[brisk finch]

So it's not really the enemy that moved around, fascinating

[plush spoke]

are all the bug enemies haunted or some of them attack us for other reasons

[spring escarp]

This area is so COOL i want all cut content how dare they cut content

[glossy badger]

Barnacle Bay🙏

[brisk finch]

The thief bugs just suck

[spring escarp]

BAY AND SPIRE SIDE BY SIDE

[brisk finch]

That's the Clover tile set, so Verdania as we know it today

[spring escarp]

OCEAN UNDERWATER ARE WATERBREATHITN UPGRADE

[plush spoke]

i rewatched the trailer and coral tower used to have an entire map 😭

[glossy badger]

I hate them

[spring escarp]

LIFEBLOOD SEA

[quartz salmon]

give me the bay area and we take a boat to the spire or the city of steel or anything like that and my life is yours

[brisk finch]

PK coming back to life to stop this lifeblood nonsense

[spring escarp]

YWSSSS

[glossy badger]

That'd be sick

[spring escarp]

A whole new kingdom posessed by lifeblood

Inverted castle from castlevania moment

Double game size

[plush spoke]

lifeblood went crazy after act 3 so maybe lifeblood actually consumes the void to grow bigger?

[quartz salmon]

they said ambitious but thats a lil too ambitious

[spring escarp]

Fuck it give them crack

Until they do it

[high violet]

hmm ok so interesting thing, i just figured out what these are, they are the various non-area specific climbs in the game i think. A is the climb out of the abyss, B is the Coral tower, C im actually not sure about at all

[brisk finch]

We go back to Hallownest and it's just all blue

[spring escarp]

https://tenor.com/view/tobias-funke-david-cross-blue-myself-arrested-development-face-palm-gif-3567424

[glossy badger]

Lifeblood giving enemies self heal adds a new layer of difficulty and its interesting

[high violet]

does anyone know what C might be?

[spring escarp]

REAL

[tight zephyr]

I could see a new section of moss grotto that has been overtaken by lifeblood maybe

[spring escarp]

why there is lava on top

[lean temple]

C is the cradle climb to the surface?

[glossy badger]

Yeah and c is the cradle to the surface climb

[spring escarp]

flying island above surface

[quartz salmon]

oh theyre creative madmen, they would do it if they liked the idea

[brisk finch]

Even has the false pathway on the right

[spring escarp]

I would sell my soul to be their janitor

[elder nymph]

If it can be interrupted, fine. Adding health to enemies is not the same as raising the difficulty imo

[brisk finch]

I sold my feet to work for an indie company at gamescom, it's a lot of fun! Sad TC are too big now

TC I have experience let me iiiin

[high violet]

i legit have no idea what this is

[spring escarp]

real

[quartz salmon]

sold your feet?

[spring escarp]

Like I would be happy just working for them with anything reallu

[brisk finch]

Couldn't walk for a few days afterwards

[glossy badger]

It's not with the lifeblood creatures they have passive regen

[elder nymph]

Inject Plasmium into the cocoon

[lean temple]

Mt Fay? Idk it's too blurry

[spring escarp]

Just mix infection, void, soul, plasmium and see what happens

Team cherry surely likes colorful evil juices

[brisk finch]

That almost looks like a cutscene storyboard, not an area lol

[high violet]

nah Mt Fay is here

[spring escarp]

Can see

[plush spoke]

where did you find this

[spring escarp]

We don't even see the whole mount fey

[high violet]

my own photos, i went to the exhibition

[spring escarp]

There is more up

[brisk finch]

Min, would you be willing to post the full images you haven't shared yet in that reddit post?

[lean temple]

All the forces cancel each other out and you get plain water

[white glacier]

That dude just gets murked in act 3 and the other one is the ONLY TIME WE SEE which is also in Act 3

[edgy barn]

the Skarr shopkeeper was a Last Claw

[glossy badger]

The 4 humours

[plush spoke]

ohh and what are those?

[high violet]

which full images?

[spring escarp]

Why the fuck did i call lifeblood plasmium

[brisk finch]

You mentioned there was at least one map you hadn't posted in full yet

[spring escarp]

Mfw I fell for Zylotol propaganda

[brisk finch]

Ha! Assistent!

[quartz salmon]

it seems like lifeblood and void ARE linked SOMEHOW

since in the first game we find this lifeblood crypt within the abyss
and the plasmium takes over in act 3 after the void is unleashed

[spring escarp]

Why Zylotol sounds so correct of a name for an alchemist.

[edgy barn]

the last claw are never seen in the real world, they are part of the gauntler before the Karmelita fight, which happens in a memory

[high violet]

basically different areas from the full Pharloom map, this was not included in the main map so im not sure what it is

[spring escarp]

There is no reason for these to be tho

[white glacier]

Probably Life Blood is one of the few things that can withstand Void because of how tenacious life is

[spring escarp]

YES

[spring escarp]

this

[quartz salmon]

maybe

[high violet]

wait sorry im slow could you refer me to which message youre talking about

[plush spoke]

is that like the original ideas of the map?

[white glacier]

But it also has its own adverse affect of being too much Life

[quartz salmon]

its a chemical compound in the real world

[high violet]

its how the map evolved over the years

[spring escarp]

What if team cherry makes piss the new evil juice

[plush spoke]

oh alr

[spring escarp]

Yellow is a color they haven't used yet

[brisk finch]

@high violet

[spring escarp]

Really?

[quartz salmon]

flea juice is yellow

[spring escarp]

What is a flea juice

[glossy badger]

Flea juice is flea pee

[quartz salmon]

do the fleas make it or is it made from fleas? the ultimate question

[spring escarp]

Apparently it is Xylitol actually

[lean temple]

It sounds like the name of a medicine

[spring escarp]

Flwa beer I see

[white glacier]

It's similar to Xylotil which is a sugar compound

[spring escarp]

Xylitol

Probabyl from tree blood

Idk how to call in english

[oak falcon]

Pale King?

[plush spoke]

this is so funny

[spring escarp]

No tree blood

[elder nymph]

You mean sap

[lean temple]

Sap?

[high violet]

ah so i only have a few other photos other than that one thats closeup, because the screen was not working properly when i went there

[spring escarp]

Girl tryna be jesus

[spring escarp]

yeah

[plush spoke]

granny long legs

[high violet]

i got these photos of the Coral Gorge from a friend

[spring escarp]

You one the museum???

TAKE SHITLOAD OF PHOTOS IN ALL ANGLES AND DISTANCES SO WE CAN STICH SUPER RESOLUTION THEM

[high violet]

im one with the museum???

[brisk finch]

I can see why you'd hold these back, but thank you so much anyway

[spring escarp]

you're there????

[high violet]

i was there yesterday

[brisk finch]

https://tenor.com/bIrVt.gif

[high violet]

i live nearby

[spring escarp]

Go back and scan the whole thing i beg

[quartz salmon]

hornet points it out herself that lifeblood is very similar to the infection from the first game

it also seems to be hypnotic, even hornet seems to not be immune if you read some of the text descriptions of plasmium enemies and items

[spring escarp]

Like shitloads of pictures

I wann see them pixels

[high violet]

it costs money to go there so next time i go there, im going with a list of things to zoom in on

[spring escarp]

How much money

[high violet]

not too much but money regardless

[spring escarp]

Maybe i cna pay?

[high violet]

like $25 i think

nah lol dw about it, i will visit again i just cant any time soon because of uni

[spring escarp]

Alright alright

[stark creek]

What is the time gap between silksong and hk.

[spring escarp]

I was afraid I would pay it

[high violet]

plus i wanna take time to take notes of what areas of interest there are before going back

[quartz salmon]

lets just hope that ACMI decides to upload all of this

[spring escarp]

Id scan the whole thing

[high violet]

they wont with the map, i asked a staff member, its copyrighted material apparently

[quartz salmon]

😭

[brisk finch]

Team Cherry please stop hiding your maps

[plush spoke]

hornet is a furry woah

[quartz salmon]

what about sketchbook stuff concept art etc

that isnt the map

[high violet]

some of it is online already but not all

[quartz salmon]

i see thanks

we gotta find them

tc's treasure

[brisk finch]

I would assume the issue is that ACMI doesn't own any of the art
TC do

So TC could publish it if they wanted

[high violet]

yeah TC could but not ACMI

[brisk finch]

(Please)

[quartz salmon]

well you'd think they'd let them upload since theyre showcasing it anyway

[high violet]

i feel for avoiding potential spoilers and maybe for future area upgrades and whatnot they probably wont upload these in full definition to the internet

[brisk finch]

I can understand wanting to keep your art within your own control

I just wish they;d publish an artbook

[high violet]

also getting these photos was a pain in the ass because the lighting in the exhibition absolutely sucks for photos

also the screen becomes non-responsive if you dont touch it so i had to keep touching it LOL

i eventually got my friend to help me out with it

[white glacier]

I want to see more bugs so I can create my characters in their world and just put them as lil art cameos

Like all the bugs are super interesting

Ones with Masks and Born with masks

[quartz salmon]

i think they really stepped up their game with the new npc designs

[quartz salmon]

sure probably yea

[white glacier]

The Skull Tyrant and the guys in the Marrow has a lot of lore implications as well!

[high violet]

sand of Karak used to be really red for some reason lol

[lean temple]

Coral, makes sense. I see why they toned it down tho.

[brisk finch]

Red Coral Gorge always struck me as more blue, though

[quartz salmon]

"red coral gorge"

[white glacier]

Coral

[brisk finch]

No I'm not joking

[cosmic trellis]

guys it's a good build?

[white glacier]

Wrong area!

[high violet]

it was blue at some point, im assuming this was when they began to transition between the two areas

[white glacier]

Looks like waterfalls to be honest

[brisk finch]

You can see the backgrounds in the announcement trailer (and the tower)

[quartz salmon]

(from reveal trailer) it seriously bugs me that they chose to move second sentinel to a cramped little ass room instead of this open hall

it would have been so much better

[brisk finch]

It's very blue

[lean temple]

Oh that's 2nd sentinel. I forgot this fight was them

[quartz salmon]

maaaaan i get why they changed it but its so pretty

[white glacier]

OH I see man it's been awhile since I've seen the old trailer

You think we'd explore everything through a dreamscape sort of deal?

[brisk finch]

I don't think it's impossible,but we'll have to see what direction the dlc take

[white glacier]

Or Needolin in this case because I would probably spend days in the Coral Area

[white glacier]

-cries- Understandable... Gotta let everyone have their Silksong time

[lean temple]

How would the Steel assassins be there assuming they will be in the coral area

[quartz salmon]

unless they change the whole coral tower sequence to be an entire coral area then i really doubt it

[white glacier]

Prolly just hopped into the dream to gang up on her

[brisk finch]

I think it's safe to say the steel assassins were decoupled from the coral area
There's nothing tying them to it anyway

[high violet]

heres a cool transition of how the final bits of Red Coral Gorge became sands of karak

[white glacier]

Wow

[glossy badger]

Interesting

[white glacier]

It looks like Verdania would've been a huge part as well or a new area

[glossy badger]

I do really like the parkour design of San of karak. Thankfully they nerfed sand carvers

[left dune]

What does the sentence "For her you become... who knows clear our desire, and has seen full the darkness beneath our house, I would show you the gift." mean because I really don't fully get it. Like I understand it's talking about Hornet now knowing the 3 queens' desire and that Hornet knows of the void in the Abyss, but the wording seems strange.

[high violet]

around the same time they got rid of sands of karak they also got rid of Verdania, so i think they probably removed it due ecosystems like that thriving in Pharloom just not making sense lore wise

and also with general themes

[glossy badger]

And then they kept bilewater

[high violet]

since the rest of the world is just so dilapidated

[white glacier]

B-but... Life can still continue sort od deal...

But yeah

[high violet]

i love Bilewater my favourite area for real

[white glacier]

If a place that's like- A-are you okay? Did the muckmaggots get to you?

[brisk finch]

Bilewater makes perfect sense 😄 A monument to the Citadel's cruelty

[left dune]

It's up there for me just because of the music

[high violet]

yeah the music in Bilewater is so good

[edgy barn]

Bilewater is a good area

[white glacier]

Music yes! Actual level? It's... Hellish

[edgy barn]

Groal is the issue

[white glacier]

Bile even -badumtiss-

[glossy badger]

Yeah bilewater music is great

[white glacier]

Though I wonder if Bilewater was an extension to Verdania?

[glossy badger]

Bilewater was the only area I the game I needed to look stuff up

[white glacier]

Since it's close enough to Greymoor and Sinner's road

Huh wait

They removed the standalone bells from the trailer

[sinful nimbus]

TC realizing cool and lively areas suck and they want to make a second uninspired drab kingdom on its last legs

[glossy badger]

Bilewater was originally a clear lake cave before the citadel

[brisk finch]

Bilewater/Poop Hermit Crab village/Verdania is one lil corner on the right

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think that Coral as it was would have been jarring in a very odd way

[glossy badger]

No silkposting here

[white glacier]

Huh they redid a lot of the backgrounds too especially Lace's area

[sinful nimbus]

is it wrong

[white glacier]

I dunno I think it'd be neat

[umbral moth]

is it known why lifeblood is known as plasmium in pharloom or-?

[sinful nimbus]

Thats the name that was chosen by the scientist iirc

[glossy badger]

The professor named it that

[brisk finch]

It's known as that by one guy
Alternatively: plasmium is something else entirely in the alchemist's beta dialogue, related to mossblood and/or muckblood depending on the line

[edgy barn]

the alchemist doesn't know its real name and thinks its something he discovered for the first time

[brisk finch]

They had the concept and the phial and the like and transplanted lifeblood into the questline

Possibly to save a little bit of the lifeblood spire concept, but who knows

[glossy badger]

And then he had the genius idea of planting all over the wormways and inject himself with it to make himself immortal

[umbral moth]

this is what i was looking for, ty. didn't know if lifeblood was just actually called plasmium and we just figured that out or if zylotol just came up with it cuz he thought he made a brand new discovery

[glossy badger]

Like how the citadel bugs injected themselves with silk to make themselves immortal

[umbral moth]

first i hear of mossblood or muckblood

[glossy badger]

Muckblood sounds like a slur

[brisk finch]

It solely exists in cut lines 😄

[white glacier]

Ah Whiteward... The only place that is truly haunted...

[brisk finch]

It is not canon, but it tells me something about the writing process and old plans

[umbral moth]

oh huh

[brisk finch]

"With the Needle Phial... The mossblood from the humid caves at Pharloom’s base...We shall force the Plasmium to respond... We need it... You need it... Bring the mossblood..."

"The mossblood... The Plasmium. It demands that foreign, lesser life... It demands violent coercion...You have done so well, Assistant... For your kind efforts, you may relieve this shell of its rosaries. They are heavy, mortal things... On a transcending shell, they will only weigh.."

"The muckblood... Please, dear Assistant. Plasmium demands its final challenge.Use the Phial... Strike deep. Suck that foul liquid from the swamp things’ shells... For your forever..."

"Goooooood. That’s it Assistant... My dear Assistant.The muckblood... From the swamps beside the sea. Vile, impure... necessary, for great discovery...To become that great discovery.The Needle Phial. Use it. Extract the blood... Bring it. I must ingest that crudest liquid life..."

[umbral moth]

so that's what you meant by beta dialogue

[brisk finch]

This is not everything mind you

[umbral moth]

i can only assume this is act 3 dialogue

[brisk finch]

the third alchemist quest is still present in the save file, it just doesn't get called for

[umbral moth]

makes sense

[brisk finch]

always remains false

But no, these are replacements for all 3 quests. Like I said, there's more text

[umbral moth]

oh i see

[glossy badger]

Interesting

[brisk finch]

Like, it's clearly recognizable as the Lifeblood questline, but it's completely unrelated so... when did that change happen

[umbral moth]

the dialogue just seemed like it's act 3 specific from the "relieve this shell of its rosaries. they are heavy, mortal things..."

and also all the pauses in general

[umbral moth]

i can only assume it had to have been rather late into the wormways' development considering the quest and the dialogue still exists in the files

[brisk finch]

THis is the quest 2 accept:
"Good! Good! Take again my Needle Phial. Find the moss creatures, any will do, ready the Phial and stick them through to extract their mossblood.This is an easy task and you’ll find little challenge, so the compensation shall only be rosaries. But! Think of the true reward! Understanding! For wonderous Plasmium, every small step is worth taking."
So you know what, ye i think the ones i quoted are from act 3

I just quoted them because they showed his mindset the best XD

[umbral moth]

fair

[brisk finch]

eh, Caravan Spider is also there and they're a fast travel system that's aware of Coral

[umbral moth]

yeah this sounds like act 1/2

[umbral moth]

...caravan spider?

[brisk finch]

"We’ve arrived, small spider. Bellhart waits just through that tunnel. From this distance at least it seems safe enough? Perhaps the rumours of its danger were overstated? If you’re needing travel here again, I’m inclined to offer a more reasonable rate." "Thank you for your service, Sir. It may seem safe from here, but I shall keep my guard up nonetheless."

" (purchased passage, “get in!” etc)"

"Many thanks for freeing me, small spider. It was a careless move, to blundered into those deadly threads.You too look a spider, but these ropes suggest you use no silk in your service?Hoi. No! Don’t mistake. I am arachni, sure, but no Weaver, and the better for it! If I could produce silk I’d be fast seized by the Citadel.To weave... Quite a talent, and I’ll not deny some envy, but my weakness means my hide stays safe.It’s no matter really. I’m a fair talent with my vineropes. Trade me a few rosaries and I’ll take you via routes only I’m able to scale."

" Gah! Traveller, please! This wretched thread has me snared tight. There must be a thick knot up above. Cut me free!"

"Travel to Bellhart?"

"(canceled shop menu)"

"Spider, I can take you to Bellhart, but I warn you, the pilgrim’s speak of bad happenings around that place.Though I’ve not seen it for myself, I’m charging a premium to cover the risk."

CARAVAN_SPIDER_TALK_THREAD "(No longer needed. Remove.)"

CARAVAN_SPIDER_MEET_CORAL "Well well. I’ve not seen this old stop in many a beat. You have my thanks for clearing it.The coral overgrowth has grown wild. The bug built structures about these climes are subsumed beneath it. I’d heard the coral was always a hard thing to keep under control, even back when the place was well travelled.Now there’s no one left to tend the path, it’s no surprise so few pilgrims find their way through."

Again, this is not every single line!

[lyric rose]

Can somebody figure out how tall the abyss escape is?

[brisk finch]

My favorite bit from this is
" I am arachni, sure, but no Weaver, and the better for it! If I could produce silk I’d be fast seized by the Citadel.To weave... Quite a talent, and I’ll not deny some envy, but my weakness means my hide stays safe."
Because of what it implies about TC's view of the lore as they were writing it

[lyric rose]

It’s definitely way farther than what’s shown on the map

[grave jewel]

Okay I had like a theory on the toilet and now I want shade lord ending no flower to be “cannon”

It makes sense cause they can say she lost the fight against the hollow knight and was found unconscious and then kidnapped

[umbral moth]

so i guess before the bell beast was this spider caravan...interesting

[umbral moth]

...when was this ever stated?

[glossy badger]

I wish they had kept these lines in

[grave jewel]

But if it is true then that could mean we get to fight the shade lord which I want so badly

[grave jewel]

I wasn’t I’m theory crafting

[umbral moth]

oh

[grave jewel]

Isn’t that what you do here

[quartz salmon]

yes

[grave jewel]

Okay cool

[umbral moth]

it's the part where you state "they can say she lost the fight against the hollow knight" that made it sound (at least to me) like this was actually said in-game

[grave jewel]

But now we could have an excuse to go back to hallownest

And then we could have areas corrupted with void

And we can return to god home

Maybe get to fight the hk bosses idk tho

We could chase down the hk and fight him when he has void powers again and is no longer trying to help us

[quartz salmon]

meh since they name dropped 3 other kingdoms in the cradle theres little reason

i wanna explore these other new places

[grave jewel]

And if they do flash backs we could fight the hk before we lost and there’s 3 phases

But you have to die to “win”

But to make it harder for speed runs

You have to beat phase 1 and 2 and then phase 3 has infinite health so you are guaranteed to die

And if it’s a hard fight

Then that makes the rematch 10x more fun

Cause now you actually want to win and it brings memories of your original struggle if you struggled

That’s all

Oh and I want pantheons again

[sour igloo]

That's 99% happening. Maybe not 1:1, but they already have a placeholder for a 3rd game mode button

[umbral moth]

oh really now?

[sour igloo]

Yeah

[grave jewel]

This has been the greatest information I’ve ever heard

[teal drift]

I wonder what the pantheons will be like if/when they add them. Will a godseeker just conveniently be in pharloom too or will there be a different route to the same destination.

[umbral moth]

gods glory...oh hell yeah

[grave jewel]

If we return to hallownest (they would have to change some rooms to fit hornet) then we could have like a half void corrupted godhome

[teal drift]

And would gms get an awakened fight because the one we fight rn is like eepy and one of the easier bosses in the game. I also dont think yet another harder Lace variant would be a fun addition.

[umbral moth]

we would absolutely get a harder grandma fight

she's very underwhelming as of now tbh

[grave jewel]

Yeah

[teal drift]

Yeah but tbf canonically she is an eepy lady.

[unborn night]

So this is definitely our godhome equivalent yeah? Godhome dlc was originally called gods and glory before it was renamed

[umbral moth]

that sounds about right

[teal drift]

Void Mother Silk
Awakened Mother Silk

[unborn night]

Locked in meemaw fight

[teal drift]

Tbh the most evil idea i saw was a Lost Lace + GMS duo battle.

[sour igloo]

Yeah that's why I said it's probably just a placeholder for now. The name won't be that

[quartz salmon]

hornet can concentrate and weave things into existence through memories with silk

thats how boss rush will happen

[grave jewel]

So what do you guys think

[unborn night]

Dude if they add this I might never fucking finish silksong

[umbral moth]

oh that...oh.....

[grave jewel]

Cause my ADHD brain had to tell someone

[teal drift]

I think they wont go full repeat godseeker mode so the needolin going memory diving is probably the route theyll go, but we need a motive for hornet to do so.

[potent patio]

Are the fay bird and the fleas potentially related?

[unborn night]

Like I already barely beat lost lace when I was using the most busted setup (quick bind, longclaw, dice, wanderers crest)

[unborn night]

I think this is a bit of a stretch

[umbral moth]

dreamwell comeback for 2026 real

[teal drift]

High key i thought silksong would release with a preexisting godseeker that did the exact same thing the Hk godseeker did.

[quartz salmon]

probably the promise of some secret within her or someone elses memories

[unborn night]

But I wouldn't rule it out entirely? Maybe?

[unborn night]

I wish it did, I would love to refight some of those late-game bosses. Namely Clover Dancers

[teal drift]

Actually diving into gms would allow for most refights since she possesses 90% of bosses

[unborn night]

She controls them, not creates them.

[umbral moth]

...yeah, that's what possession means

[high violet]

do you guys think Phantom was made "incomplete", or her form is fraying due to age

[umbral moth]

the latter

it's confirmed from the hunter's journal entry

[high violet]

see i thought so too, but her body in the incubator looks exactly like the one she has currently

when you play the needolin

[umbral moth]

tbf, the only thing we know is that the thread has gone gray with age

so the form of the body has likely stayed the same

but also, lace is considered a "child woven pure". so to some extent you could consider phantom incomplete considering they aren't pure in grandma's eyes

[worn trout]

been thinking about gurr and the mottled skarr

[open dragon]

The entirety of the Citadel makes the Pale King's policies and action look tame in comparison

[worn trout]

i know that mottled skarr can die sometime in the run, and gurr wants hornet as one last hunt, these are also the only 2 ants we see with the grey marking on them, i think its possible that the grey marking are some kind of disease that afflicts them, killing mottled skar and causing gurr to want to go out with a bang

[open dragon]

And thats not a good thing omg-

[worn trout]

or they have ant vitiligo

[open dragon]

I feel bad for the Mottled Skarr, he looks like one of the last of the Skarrs who still believed in Queen Karmelita, and i think the rest of the tribe went mad and worshipped Silk instead

There's that little grey triped ant and Gurr the Outcast

[worn trout]

im not sure about that considering that both gilly and the journal states something about the skarr not being as affected by the haunting

[craggy smelt]

there's a third one actually, just learned about it

[worn trout]

whos that

[craggy smelt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itXbiFASQxU&ab_channel=ChickenSoup

[fading whale]

Question, is the Everbloom in silksong exactly the same as the ones that bloom in hallownest for example when planted at the grave in queen's gardens? Or is it more like a physical memory?

[open dragon]

They might've strayed away from their queen cuz y'know, she old

[worn trout]

interesting, that one looks kind of shaky, its also something to consider that the ones with grey marking seem more sane than the other skarr

[fading whale]

I think they are marked as outcasts or traitors

[heavy gyro]

Are memories dreams

[spark drift]

nuh uh

[fading whale]

No essence particles would probably mean that they're not

[worn trout]

also a possible explanation yeah

[brisk finch]

I like to think it's the one Ghost gave to White Lady

[fading whale]

That didn't happen cause the white lady doesn't take it she refuses it

[brisk finch]

...I like to think silksong doesn't follow any canon hk ending and actually, she did accept it

[worn trout]

yeah but when she refuses it she also says that the white flower originates outside of hallownest which is interesting

[brisk finch]

Ye it's from Grey Mourner's country iirc

[fading whale]

Yes

[craggy smelt]

we see Essence in some memories in the first game (Godtuner, Land of Storms) but none here
it may be that Silksong uses the glowing silk webs to represent thought and memory rather than Essence
maybe that's just Hornet's perception of things

[worn trout]

i think that hornet is literally time traveling

[heavy gyro]

Maybe since hornet doesn't have the dream nail she can't see essence particles, just like the knight can't see dream ghosts until after getting the dream nail

[fading whale]

Or maybe she's talking about the one specifically that the knight has cause that one is from there but maybe they can grow wherever

[fading whale]

Agreed

But the red memory is confusing to me in general. Like clearly she's not directly communicating with the people in there right? She's just observing her memories

[heavy gyro]

She talks directly to white lady I think

[brisk finch]

no for herrah and vespa, yes for wl

[fading whale]

When the white lady speaks to hornet it does seem like they're speaking directly but at that point I think it's hornet herself having that conversation with the concept of the white lady in her head

Not that like the white lady herself was making conscious decisions relating to this conversation at the exact moment in time hornet is experiencing the red memory

[worn trout]

i mean the white lady is a pale being its entirely possible that she can just do that

[fading whale]

True

[brisk finch]

the other two are 100% memories of hornet, the conversation with WL is a real conversation in real time, but you could argue that's not the real WL
I do think it's stronger if she is

[fading whale]

It's weird to me the pale king wasn't in hornet's memories also

[worn trout]

its bc hes a deadbeat

[edgy barn]

They likely did not interact much

[strange needle]

so what exactly is Phantom i didn't get it,are they also a banished weaver or something

[fading whale]

She is the same type of being as lace

[brisk finch]

prototype lace, basically

[fading whale]

But like a prototype or just old and frayed

[brisk finch]

gsm thought she sucked so she kicked her out

[strange needle]

well gsm is stupid and wrong,where is the part about her being a being like lace is said tho

[brisk finch]

not a literal prototype, justa failed early attempt

[heavy gyro]

What was gsm's goal

[brisk finch]

have kids that dont suck

[fading whale]

No clue tbh

[edgy barn]

The journal describes her as a being strung from silk

which is what Lace is

[fading whale]

Probably actually because the first sinner resented her when she found out that weavers like herself weren't truly divine and were just raised from pharlids, GSM was like okay fuck you. I Will make a truly pure original creation

[umbral moth]

it seems like something not too dissimilar to what the pale king wanted with the hollow knight, a pure being. discounting the whole "vessel to contain something" part

[brisk finch]

I've taken it as
GSM made a pure child (either phantom of lace) and that pissed FS off

[umbral moth]

my guess is that lace is post first sinner

[fading whale]

I think so too

[umbral moth]

i wouldn't be surprised if first sinner is why phantom came out wrong

[fading whale]

I don't think so, FS seems just pissed that gsm lied to them that they're divine

[brisk finch]

Right, so why does she think that? Well, what if GSM showed what a real divine daughter is like

[fading whale]

Did she though? Maybe she just failed over time

She thinks that probably cause she discovered weavers were just tools to gsm

And somehow got access to the information that they come from pharlids

Maybe through her own memories

[edgy barn]

do we even know what exactly is wrong with Phantom thought?

[umbral moth]

they've grown gray with age

[brisk finch]

We just know that GSM thought something was wrong and banished her

[fading whale]

Physically it also looks like she's coming apart

[brisk finch]

Like ye she's old now

[heavy gyro]

Are all weavers actually evolved pharlids? Other weavers have perfectly round heads while first sinner's head resembles a pharlid, so I took it as that she was the only pharlid evolved

[brisk finch]

But that's post banishment to the organ

[umbral moth]

that's about all we know for certain and that's potentially what gsm means with not being pure

[fading whale]

The round head is a mask

[brisk finch]

I took at it as "these other children of mine have opinions and grow up and stuff, Lace will forever be a child"
to go with the theme of motherhood

But then Lace, of course, also rebels

[grand kayak]

Well the half weavers arent

[umbral moth]

grandma is surprised that a child is acting like a child, more news at 11

[brisk finch]

The only pure being is a child that follows the whims of the mother

[fading whale]

First sinner's cracked egg looking ass head is probably again because she was the first gsm didn't perfect the process

[rustic tundra]

I have a question guys, is mother silk the creator of the weavers?

[brisk finch]

honestly, credit where it's due, she does not seem that surprised when we see her again in the abyss
Perfectly willing to help out

Like, she's holding up the cocoon there, we'd die without her

[umbral moth]

yes, grandma created the weavers

[timid forge]

is tormented trobbio alive or did he fake it like before?

[brisk finch]

Yes

[brisk finch]

He can popup post "death"

[fading whale]

She's holding it up to save herself and lace as well

[umbral moth]

and then lied to them about being divine

[brisk finch]

and he throws out the second mirror after descending

[umbral moth]

ya

[brisk finch]

Right! But then she's willing to sacrifice herself in the end anyway

[fading whale]

For lace

[umbral moth]

trobbio fr one of the best characters, he hands you the best tools in the game for free

[fading whale]

She knows she's cooked anyway

[brisk finch]

It seems like toxic big mama finally left the parent forums and read Children of Emotionally Immature Parents

And went oh shit thats me, that's why all my kids leave

[edgy barn]

I mean at that point GMS is doomed anyways

she has no way of escaping the void

[brisk finch]

Well yes, but Lace betrayed her at the end and she could have been petty
it was a choice not to be

That's characterization

[fading whale]

How did lace betray her?

[umbral moth]

she finally evolved from facebook mom to something more respectable

[fading whale]

She was just taken over by the void

[brisk finch]

She cut off her arm

[tight zephyr]

so did grandma only create the weavers so that they could make more silk for her?

[fading whale]

Oh yeah my bad I'm dumb

[umbral moth]

when the soul snare goes off, grandma tries to bring hornet down with her but lace swoops in and forces grandma further into the void whilst freeing hornet

[fading whale]

That's my guess but I don't even know like there's not enough information

[brisk finch]

Like, to me, thematically the game makes the most sense from a perspective of GSM continously trying to

1. have children and
2. have control

[fading whale]

My guess is that yeah she wanted children that could share her power of silk but also specialise in weaving

[brisk finch]

when she's basically out of children and locked away, she still craves that control of the mind

Children are extensions of their parents, the pilgrims are extensions of her
because the only kid she still fully has and is willing to acknowledge is traipsing around killing her tools/citadel folks

[fading whale]

With lace and phantom she probably realised that changing other creatures giving them intelligence and powers also gives them the power and free will to eventually despise your control and want to escape you

So she's like I'll make purely silken dolls

[brisk finch]

uplifting didnt work, creating from scratch didnt work
fuck it, zombie plague

[tight zephyr]

since there already is the obsession with silk expanding life maybe granny created them so they could make/keep her immortal so can keep control forever

[brisk finch]

...wait the curse doesnt get me botted?

what does trigger that bot lol

the most random things

[fading whale]

The pilgrims were called to the citadel long before being haunted tho

They were called there by the citadel bugs to keep up the eternal song keeping GMS asleep, and that whole plan was orchestrated by the weavers

Called there to build it up maintain it and maintain the song

[brisk finch]

There's a difference between the pilgrimage and the silk brainwashing zombie plague of the game era, ay

[heavy gyro]

How did gms break free

[brisk finch]

the pilgrimage was the conductors and the high caste being terrible, not so much gms

[heavy gyro]

What even is the silksong religion

[brisk finch]

My pet theory is that all of the kidnapped weavers+hornet add up to one full weaver
so hornet entering the room freed her fully

[fading whale]

Through time corrupting and corroding the traditions and the ritual, things being forgot, misremembered, lost and warped by time

[tight zephyr]

wait is the eternal song the combination of the 3 songs hornet learns in the citadel?

[fading whale]

I don't know if it's that one, tbh I think by the time the events of the game happen, the whole thing that kept her asleep was lost to time

[brisk finch]

the Citadel appears to basically just be Heaven but physical, so pilgrims journey to be allowed in and try to live their lives in such a way
most get rejected into the underworks so the citadel can profit off their labor and the people who do make it in can live worry free

[fading whale]

That's why the symbol of the citadel is the harp but without strings and with gms cocoon inside, instead of the original origin of that shape which is implied to be the harp with strings and a Weaver'shead in the middle

From that cutscene that we see all the weavers playing harp

[brisk finch]

Also, immortality is heavily sought after and longevity can be gained through the use of silk in horrific experiments. That lasted generations, so new citizens are born with a lot of silk in them, making them an easy target for GSM by the time of the game

I'm inclined to think a lot of the music motifs are from the Weaver era, which is why the Conductors are conductors (they took over after) but there's very little real influence in the way things were working right before GMS hit them hard

[fading whale]

However I'm pretty sure I saw some relic or description or something that was basically addressing the first pilgrims saying "look how there's absolutely nothing here but bare fucking stone, come build heaven and call your friends too so we can achieve glory" or something like that

[brisk finch]

It does sound like everything going on is a bit of an open secret

Some are completely oblivious, but it's not actually all that hidden

[fading whale]

That was definitely weaver manipulation to kick-start the citadel caste

That's why they called and whispered to surface bugs as well

[tight zephyr]

the only thing I can think of that is similar to this is one of the relics inviting ill bugs to come to the citadel to pave the way for glory and such (so aka invitation to getting experimented on)

[fading whale]

No no that's a different one

I'll find it

[tight zephyr]

oh wait I think thats part of Pious Isamor dialogue

[brisk finch]

There's also stuff like

Filthy rag, marked with the scrawl of an Underworker.“So much suffering. Are we truly chosen, or have we sinned unknowing, and now are punished for it?”
Only the people in the Slab are officially being punished
Everyone else is doing Good

[lime nova]

Hollow Knight stories are the kinds of stories that you learn to fully appreciate long after you beat the game. They're constructed narratives. Built from dissecting the entirety of the work presented. I'm currently listening to the soundtrack and building a new appreciation for how that aspect of the game does its storytelling. Finding memories that recontextualize relationships between characters, and of course, playing the game a second time, knowing how it ends. All of these things grant a level of clarity that helps one appreciate the truly grand and mythological storytelling Team Cherry are so good at crafting

[brisk finch]

ye thats

...ilgrim!... ast aside those many sinful hopes for rest ...d reward... remain pure... within our midst... sk for nothing! See... Citadel’s simple stone, bare an... dorned. See h...ain our garb, how sparse o... meal. Know that... excess is sin!Stay vigil... ys, for tho... wretched pilgrims... dare relen... their base desi... Left unpunish... thin our pure chorus... eir seductive sin... pread like flame...

[lime nova]

What about that weird long dude in the choral chambers?

The guy who walks on the wheel

[fading whale]

Yes this is what I was talking about

[brisk finch]

As long as he works, some day he'll be allowed up

[fading whale]

And pious isamor being so old does confirm it's from the beginnings of the citadel

[lime nova]

That's the Great Lie

[fading whale]

And pious isamor was one of the ways the weavers manipulated the bugs

[brisk finch]

Yes, but the work part isn't lied about

It's very uh
protestant work ethic

The reward is the lie, not the work

[lime nova]

Yes, it's a deconstruction of religious servitude and theocracy

[brisk finch]

Obviously we knew the game had religious themes, but I didn't expect how deep they ended up going

I think it's well done

[lime nova]

You're surprised how deep into the themes a... Hollow Knight game went?

[fading whale]

The first game was religious too I mean the pale king was a god king

Thk is literally jesus

[lime nova]

Sure, but Silksong is much more willing to be blunt about its satire of Christianity

[ashen ferry]

||someone please explain what happened in the weaver queen ending||

[brisk finch]

Hollow Knight was to me mainly about choices, about the past, about humanity and worth, about leadership

I don't associate it with religion specifically

[lime nova]

Silksong is very much a satire of Christianity and it's very good satire

[brisk finch]

There was some religious theming, but for silksong it's focal point

[fickle shuttle]

hi guys

i have a question

[fading whale]

Hornet absorbed GMS powers to the point where it changes the very shape of her soul and her essence as a being (you can tell that by the crest changing and her masks turning into six eyed weavers masks) and basically took her place as the tyrant/monarch

[lime nova]

I really appreciated the confessional booth where you pay, it asks what your sin is, and no matter what you say it plays a pre recorded message saying you've committed a grave sin and must work harder to make up for it

[ashen ferry]

are we evil too

[fickle shuttle]

how t get more trap ammount?

[brisk finch]

Hornet specifies she doesn't want that power, even if a part of her craves it

[fickle shuttle]

like 8 of this flying guys

[worthy mulch]

Hello, does Silksong answers what happened in the godhome ending when hornet meets the sealed vessel?

[brisk finch]

Those toolkits for sale

[lime nova]

No

[fading whale]

That's left up to interpretation but it is implied earlier in the game that hornet does have the instinct and incilations to end up like a tyrincal higher being as well so probably yes on my opinion

[cedar owl]

they kissed

[worthy mulch]

source?

[umbral moth]

not as of now, no. we just know that embrace the void is most likely the canon ending

[brisk finch]

No, and it's the main reason i need Embrace the void/delicate flower to be fully canon and explored

i need to see thk vibing in the corner lol

[fading whale]

Yeah I think in the normal ending she ends up giving in to the power

[heavy gyro]

Doesn't the shade lord appearing in the true ending imply silksong takes place after embrace the void

[umbral moth]

yeah

[fading whale]

I think so

[lime nova]

Hornet, much like the Pale King, is constantly fighting her nature. The difference is that while the Pale King attempted to fight his nature by being a good tyrant (and failing), Hornet fights her nature simply by refusing to rule at all. her choice is to use her power to overthrow the tyrant of Pharloom and give the people the resources to take care of themselves

She's a liberator

[brisk finch]

Yes, it fits the most neatly

[tight zephyr]

on everyones soul thk will appear in the silksong dlc 🙏

[lime nova]

I disagree, though I think the vagueness is on purpose. I think Dream No More is the most canon ending

[fading whale]

I also think silksong contextualised the fact that the lord of shades isn't the lord of the entire void but the lord of SHADES specifically. That's why we see the tendrils still attacking hornet without the flower, and the knight fighting back. Obviously he is the top dog and the strongest power in the void, but he isn't the void entirely, he is simply the master and arbiter of the force of nature that the void is, through achieving unity with all the thousands of shades that exist in it due to the pale king

[brisk finch]

Well it certainly isn;t the most canon, because it's one that doesn't account for things shown in Silksong

[fading whale]

I don't see any liberation in the weaver queen ending

And her change of crest is very signifsct

[brisk finch]

Honestly, Weaver Queen is a bad end. She didn't want that to happen

[lime nova]

i think the Knight flashing between shade lord and its form in Dream no More is on purpose, to make both canon

[tight zephyr]

schrödingers hollow knight
with both the dream no more and embrace the void ending having canonized aspects we dont know if thk is still around or not

[brisk finch]

But it doesn't make both canon. It makes the one ending that can reasonably have both, canon

[heavy gyro]

I think the knight just controls the void when close to it, since it also controls the void tendrils in hollow knight

[brisk finch]

But yes, we don't know what happened to THK

[lime nova]

Team Cherry has stated a desire to make all endings canon going forward, and while they were clearly unable to do that, they certainly tried to make at least two of them plausible

[brisk finch]

Before Godmaster came out tho, people always forget that

That was a statement made before they added more endings

[heavy gyro]

All endings could still be canon, it could just mean in most endings silksong doesn't happen

[brisk finch]

Including one of the endings we're talking about

[fading whale]

Yeah basically in embrace the void, void goes from having no entity and no focus to having some sort of "personified" existence whereas before it was pure chaos and force of nature

[brisk finch]

Well, yes, but that's not conductive to the discussion of "which one leads into silksong and can be taken as factual background information"

[lime nova]

I don't think the shade lord is exclusive to godmaster. Like, yes it doesn't appear in dream no more but there's nothing that makes it impossible to form in a non godhome context

[brisk finch]

It's relevant for knowing if THK is a loose end or not

[brisk finch]

it's the focus part

[rain spindle]

Pure vessel wasnt there

ETV is canon

[brisk finch]

That too

[lime nova]

I think it's pretty obvious that TC is trying to make both endings plausibly canon

[brisk finch]

But they didn't. One ending has the shade lord and a living thk
thk doesnt show up in silksong's shade shot and the shade lord does

[spark quail]

Do we know if the Grand Mother Silk has been controlling people through her silk before or after the Weavers put her to sleep? Also do we know why exaclty the Weavers fled from the kingdom? Even though they were able to put her "down"?

[lime nova]

Also like, Hornet isn't involved in the godhome ending actually. She says a lot of things about being involved in saving hallownest, which makes no sense if ETV is canon

[brisk finch]

It appears she only took control relatively recently, else the Citadel would have never functioned at all

[brisk finch]

Hornet was in Godhome though

[lime nova]

Lmao

[heavy gyro]

She guided the knight to the voidheart

[umbral moth]

she's talking about her years in trying to save hallownest while it was still declining

[edgy barn]

If they intended ETV to be the canon ending, why not just have the shade lord only?

[lime nova]

Sure but that doesn't mean she had any clue what was going on in Godhome

[brisk finch]

She tested the Knight and guided them+ she kept weaker vessels at bay

[tight zephyr]

kind of funny that the guy who the franchise is named after is now the biggest loose end in connecting both games

[lime nova]

yeah and has absolutely no fucking clue what's happening in there

[brisk finch]

the figure on the box of the first game doesn't look like that

[fading whale]

I think the shade lord flashing is just what hornet sees. And yes he does exist, he just chooses to not be in that form to let all the other shades have autonomy. If you watch the cutscene slowed down, you never see the shade lord and all of the shades on the same frame even one. It's either the knights shade and all the others in the background, or during the flash, the shade lord only. That is because the shade lord is all of the shades combined, void having unity and focus.

The shade lord exists in godhome because he is being channeled by the godseekers as the powerful godlike being that he is, same way absolute radiance only exists in godhome through being channeled by the godseekers and only normal radiance is able to exist in "the real world"

Basically the godseekers make these beings appear in their theoretical ultimate form, regardless if they actually exist in that form outside of godhome

[brisk finch]

Well yes, it's hilarious to me. That was a less serious ansnwer than the voidheart one a gave

[edgy barn]

Also, the image of the Knight accompanied by the other shades is something characteristic to Dream No More. Sure, if you go by sheer cold logic it could also happen in ETV assuming the knight can revert back from its Void Given Focus form, but I think that's a flawed way of looking at it.

[lime nova]

I think Hornet talking about Hallownest the way she does absolutely implies she and the knight went into the black egg

[worn trout]

well in the non flower the shade lord becomes so powerful that they escape from godhome in that perfected form

[brisk finch]

My take is that the Knight is choosing to appear in a more familiar form, possibly for the reasons lycophos posits, possibly so Hornet doesn't struggle/fight back
And the shade lord flashes are showing to us, the audience, where the Knight is actually at when it comes to power. It's the feeling of power radiating off

[fading whale]

Thus I am guessing here that the knight and the shades choose to not be in shade lord from most of the time, but hornet somehow had some inherent knowledge or memory of them, or maybe they were just flexing their power a little , or maybe hornet saw them as that

[fading whale]

I mean we don't ever see the shade lord outside, we just see tendrils

[lime nova]

Yeah, ETV kinda implies that the shade lord is sort of terrorizing everything

[umbral moth]

the shade lord existed in embrace the void because it's void given focus, needing a far larger amount of attunement than any other god the godseeker has needed. the knight would have no way of tapping into the shade lord's power otherwise, making dream no more less likely since the knight wouldn't have a way to tap into the shade lord's power in that ending

[brisk finch]

I'm assuming Delicate Flower is the canon branch and banished them back to the void

Where the Knight had a moment to breathe a bit and chill

[worn trout]

didnt seem like banishment to me

[lime nova]

Agreed

[brisk finch]

No but we have now seen how weak the flower actually is

[lime nova]

I think you're reaching

[edgy barn]

It is also notable that when the shade lord flashes in, the shades flash out. That is extremely representative of both endings: Dream No More where the Knight kills the Radiance surrounded by its siblings, and Embrace the Void where the Knight ascends and kills the Radiance all on its own.

[worn trout]

the flower is so weak that is vaporized the shade lord on screen

[fading whale]

Makes sense

[spark quail]

And do we know why the weavers fled?

[lime nova]

Thank you, someone gets it

[silver spire]

shade lord formed due to godseeker attunement, its impossible to form otherwise

[fading whale]

There was no shade lord on screen

[brisk finch]

I'm reaching for taking the only endings where the shade lord exist as canon? the last endings written for hollow knight? written way after the statement of All Endings Canon people hold on to?

[fading whale]

Hey I posted that first hahaha

[brisk finch]

Likely GMS

[lime nova]

Yes. There are multiple lines of dialogue showing that they fled Silk, being absolutely terrified of her and her power

[worn trout]

we see the shade lord decimate absrad then it goes to the void raising up and out of godhome, why would the shade lord no longer be present

[fading whale]

He doesn't do it on ihis own tho, even in etv in my opinion the shade lord is simply all the shades uniting and achieving a higher focused form through the godseeker

[fading whale]

I'm just saying we don't see the form of the shade lord be outside

[lime nova]

I think people underestimate how much control and autonomy Silk has in everything going on in Pharloom. The weavers lulled Silk into slumber because she was evil and bad and a tyrant who was doing evil things. They did that to escape

[brisk finch]

Okay, explain to me:
If Dream No More is canon, why bother showing the Shade Lord at all? Why is the army of shades not enough?
And please don't say "to show power", because the shade lord has no reason to exist in that ending branch

[umbral moth]

we never see the shade lord leave godhome, if the everbloom branch is the canon one of the two then it'd be stuck in godhome

[edgy barn]

I think a much more reasonable explanation would be that the flower did not banish the shade lord, it banished the void-infected godseeker, trapping the shade lord in the dream realm.

[lime nova]

Do we know if Lace had a method of direct communication with Silk?

[brisk finch]

the void is where the void is

[fading whale]

I agree, etv is the only option in my view as well

[umbral moth]

shade lord specifically though, not the void

[worn trout]

there isint a direct link between the flower and the dream realm that we have seen

[lime nova]

It's to make both endings canon because Team Cherry has repeatedly stated that this is important to them

[brisk finch]

before godhome

[fading whale]

Godhome presumably doesn't exist anymore as the godseeker is fucking dead

[brisk finch]

They have not stated this after that dlc

[lime nova]

Okay, and why do you think that it's not true anymore??

[brisk finch]

The final ending(s) they wrote!

[umbral moth]

because they've said it themselves...?

[brisk finch]

Because silksong does clearly make at least some endings noncanon, that's just fact

[lime nova]

Where

[umbral moth]

from what i understand, tc has moved away from the whole "all endings are canon" thing in recent years

[maiden meteor]

They stated it also before Silksong turned into fully fledged sequel game

[brisk finch]

Silksong 100% makes at least 2 endings non canon by virtue of existing and showing the knight at all!

[fading whale]

But it does manifest in a memory and is literally taken out into the physical world from one

[worn trout]

that memory isint the dream realm

[brisk finch]

If they were okay with that, why is it so impossible that they decanonized all 3 base game endings

[edgy barn]

I didn't say there was, what I meant is that the shade lord was trying to get out of the godseeker's mind, and because the flower banishes them (the godseeker), it can't do that anymore

[brisk finch]

Why is dream no more special?

[lime nova]

I still see it as kind of convoluted for ETV to see the whole non united shade lord, void stuck in the abyss, etc etc in Silksong

[maiden meteor]

We already saw that Dream and Physical realm stuff can be interchanged

Pale King stuffed Palace inside Dream

[lime nova]

It's not impossible, it just doesn't seem true based on Silksong

[brisk finch]

Less convoluted than the knight magically gaining that power off screen somewhere?

[fading whale]

They have not repeatedly stated it they stated it once years before godmaster came out, they've also actually repeatedly stated that they don't fully know all the answers either so very possibly they are honing in details as they go

[edgy barn]

That's not really something unique to the flower, Hornet could have presumably taking anything from her memory and she does take the hearts from memories as well

[brisk finch]

dnm offers no explanation whatsoever

The void is just in godhome in that ending

[worn trout]

it leaves hornet alive and free, and we see the post fight void seep into the ground explaining how they show up in the sister of the void ending

[brisk finch]

We know they did, because they weren't even sure if daughter of 3 queens was canon anymore lol

[lime nova]

Hornet wouldn't see herself as "sentinel to a dying world" in ETV

[brisk finch]

That was a decision remade during silksong

[lime nova]

I need to find her dialogue with lace

[maiden meteor]

we already saw void can manifest in dream realm from true ending

[umbral moth]

one godseeker being dead doesn't mean godhome would disappear entirely

[brisk finch]

But it excludes the big existence clearly shown in silksong's own ending

[fading whale]

There's always a physical body present in the case of the hearts tho

[brisk finch]

If 2 endings can be noncanon, why not a third?

[umbral moth]

yes she would considering she spent years protecting hallownest during its declining era

[maiden meteor]

Wasn’t that Godseeker like a hivemind of all Godseekers

[brisk finch]

You cannot bring up that interview if factual evidence when I launch the game refutes it

[worn trout]

wym the big existance

[umbral moth]

and many more after that before the knight showed up

[lime nova]

Because DNM is the good ending of HK

[brisk finch]

the Shade Lord, unmissable in the middle of the screen

[edgy barn]

Not in Nyleth's case, she's just a statue

[silver spire]

yes she would?

[worn trout]

who is to say the shade lord can only exist in godhome

[brisk finch]

That's just your take, I genuinely like the godhome endings, it's why I grinded for them

[maiden meteor]

EtV with flower could be canon tho

[lime nova]

I'm gonna go, this is really frustrating and aggressive

[fading whale]

She just said she had been sentinel to a dying world at some point for a long time, not that even after etv. Also hallownest could very well be dying even after etv

[umbral moth]

she was hallownest's entry to godhome, but that doesn't mean she was a hivemind or the only godseeker. all godseekers simply reunited in godhome

[brisk finch]

If the void can exist in godhome, if the radiance can exist for reals in godhome (because defeating her there is real)
then so can the shade lord, and yes he can leave and go back to the void from whence he came

the shade lord is void
void given focus

[fading whale]

True

[worn trout]

yeah but why would godhome be required for shade lord to show up in silksong

[drowsy snow]

Just finished the game. So the Godhome ending is canon, right?

[brisk finch]

Hornet Sentinal is actively a bossfight

[worn trout]

thats what the discussion is currently

i dont think it is

[maiden meteor]

Because DNM Knight doesn’t get Focus from Godseekers?

[drowsy snow]

Reason?

[brisk finch]

It';s the only ending that shows the shade lord existing, and it explicitely shows it coming into existence

[umbral moth]

because in dream no more, the knight has no way to tap into the power required to become the shade lord. the shade lord is void given focus, only achieved by the knight in embrace the void because of the large amount of attunement by the godseekers

[fading whale]

They kinda do explicitly say they're a hivemind, but yeah we don't know if there are more physical bodies

[worn trout]

DNM makes more sense

[fading whale]

To me it makes less sense

[maiden meteor]

I thought whole Godseekers thing was that they assimilated into singular Godseeker for easier travel

[drowsy snow]

The issue is the presence of the Shade Lord

[heavy gyro]

Etv is probably team Cherry's intended ending now since it introduces delicate flower lore and shade lord

[worn trout]

ok hear me out, in the godhome ending we see the shade lord come into existence after consuming a powerful godly being, why couldent the shadelord then also be created by the consumption of GMS

[maiden meteor]

Also we see no Hollow Knight in Silksong

which only makes sense if it didn’t become shade

which only happens in EtV

[umbral moth]

the shade lord is void given focus, only achieved by the knight in embrace the void because of the large amount of attunement by the godseekers

[fading whale]

Yeah I mean the shade lord coming into existence through godseeker attunement doesn't mean that after he exists he still constantly needs that attunement , he could be able to exist without it

[brisk finch]

The only reasoning against godhome I've seen are

1. I don't like it thematically (which... ye I can't make you like anything)
2. How would the Shade Lord leave Godhome (the void... the Shade Lord is the void...)
3. Hornet's statements (she's still been guiding the Knight on the later part of its journey+the centuries of protecting the kingdom)

[fading whale]

But he is created before the consumption man what do you mean

[brisk finch]

See, easy answer: the Knight isn't there, like what

[umbral moth]

and we saw that already in silksong, but for the knight to achieve that form in the first place is what i'm referring to

[edgy barn]

The intention is for it to be ambiguous. The Knight accompanied by the other shades is imagenery characteristic to Dream no more. When the Shade Lord appears, the others shades dissapear because they weren't there in ETV. If the intention is for only one of the endings to be the definitive canon ending, why not just stuck to the imaginary representative of that one ending?

[brisk finch]

And it's not consumption, it's the god tuner

[maiden meteor]

I’m Flower ending believer

[fading whale]

He rises up TO KILL the radiance, not after she does

[brisk finch]

The shades exist regardless tho, in the abyss

[maiden meteor]

Shade Lord came into existence but was severely weakened by Everbloom explosion

[brisk finch]

They're there in every ending

[fading whale]

That's still embrace the void

[brisk finch]

The shades always exist
the Shade Lord only exists with godseeker help

[maiden meteor]

yeah but it has important context

[brisk finch]

Also ye I personally like Delicate Flower more but DF is less obvious than ETV as a shortening

[edgy barn]

you are missing the point

[drowsy snow]

Well, at the very least, the Hollow Knight ending is confirmed not canon, right?

[maiden meteor]

also it ties neatly into Hornet using Everbloom in ending

[umbral moth]

that and sealed siblings

[brisk finch]

Exactly, I've been saying this all day

It's the ending they wrote very last, and it leads perfectly into silksong

It shows the void's response to the flower, it shows the shade lord, thk lives and so isn't a shade

[fading whale]

Idk why you interpret the many shades not showing up in godhome as them not existing at all. They do exist, they are the shade lord all united as one with the knight through godseeker

[umbral moth]

hallownest would still be in a decline if The Hollow Knight ending was canon, she'd still feel the need to protect the kingdom as she has been for all these years

[maiden meteor]

I think main point against DNM is simply Hollow Knight’s shade not being there

[umbral moth]

that as well

[maiden meteor]

no way TC would miss such a major detail

[vale jetty]

Do we know what the pipes in Cradle were for?

[umbral moth]

hk's shade should be there if it's dream no more

[edgy barn]

...they are not. they never show up in Embrace the Void. and when the Shade Lord flashes in during Silksong's ending, the shades do not appear either despite having been there the frame before.

[brisk finch]

They're in the abyss

[fading whale]

Prolly guiding silk

[brisk finch]

They're always there, they always exist no matter what ending you choose

They're a fact of the world

[edgy barn]

AGAIN, that's not the point. I know the shades exist

[maiden meteor]

they kinda appear before Absrad when we see lots of vessels

[worn trout]

we see the hollow knights shade in the sister of the void ending, not ghosts

[fading whale]

Holy you are just straight up ignoring that THE SHADE LORD IS THE SHADES

[umbral moth]

that's not the hollow knight's shade

[drowsy snow]

They technically do show up in embrace the void, in the cutscene during the pantheon before you fight the absolute radiance

[brisk finch]

That's my point
Every point against etv points to things that definitely still exist in etv
but points against dnm require theorizing about the shade lord just being able to spawn

[worn trout]

two prongs

[maiden meteor]

Hollow Knight isn’t the knight

[umbral moth]

i also confused it for the hollow knight's shade at first, but it's ghost's

[worn trout]

i know that

[brisk finch]

that;s the shade Knight's design, recheck hollow knight the game

[drowsy snow]

Hm... that's true

[worn trout]

you just said that the hollow knights shade is not there, that is the hollow knights shade

[fading whale]

That's not the hollow knight guys that's the player character from the first game plain and simple

[brisk finch]

Also, then you're implying that THK's shade shrunk (it doesn't in DNM) and gained shade lord powers

[brisk finch]

Exactly

[worn trout]

the prongs are lower on the hollow knight then on the ghost

[fading whale]

Nah no way you're still coping

[brisk finch]

So, just to check because this came up earlier: y'all do actually remember these endings, right?

Radiance still gets defeated, details like THK being physically distinct

[umbral moth]

hk's shade has been greatly affected by its time infected by the radiance just like its physical form, it wouldn't show up in its original form that we see in godhome after beating pantheon 4 as we see in dream no more

[edgy barn]

why would the hk's shade shrink and gain voidheart powers

[fading whale]

There's not a single person in the world that believes this is The Hollow Knight's shade and not the player character's shade

It doesn't have the crack, it doesn't have pointy chin, it's smaller, it also LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE player character shade

[brisk finch]

Also, Silksong's cutscenes aren't even all consistent when it comes to a lot of minor details like shading

They;'re beautiful, but they are not consistent

[umbral moth]

the cutscene in the grand gate being a noticeably different artstyle, for example

[brisk finch]

The long production all but guaranteed it, so "the prongs should be a centimeter higher" is just not something I'm going to take into account

[worn trout]

mb i blame the weed for making me forget that the ghosts shade looks like that

[fading whale]

Anyways this is a silly sidetrack we can't be actually debating this

[brisk finch]

It's fine, but that's why I asked

If you're not sure, please rewatch the endings real quick

[worn trout]

just did

[brisk finch]

Because that's the second time today something like that has happened

This is fairly low stakes, but arguing is difficult if your opponent is working off memories

[fading whale]

I'm voting that either variation of etv, flower or not, is valid, I am leaning more towards flower. Any other ending is a definite no from me

[brisk finch]

I don't actually think it's impossible for Team Cherry to canonize multiple endings, I just don't think that's what's shown is evidence that they did.

[edgy barn]

I suppose we will agree to disagree then

[worthy mulch]

I'm lost, can someone explain why there are two bumps if it is playable character?(Playable knight have one as far as I know)

[fading whale]

In any case it's gonna be 3 years minimum until silksong DLC where we will realise everyone is wrong and the truth is something else entirely like some some Zelda bullshit with timelines converging in the far future

[brisk finch]

I like Flower most for a few reasons

1. It introduces the Shade Lord
2. It introduces the flower's effect on the void
3. it lets THK live (and that's potentially interesting)
4. it was written last (with etv), while silksong was already taking shape
5. it was written way after the "all endings are canon" quote

[edgy barn]

the knight's shade just starts looking like that during the first game.

you can see when using shade cloak and the dark spalls

[worthy mulch]

Thanks

[brisk finch]

Yeah I'm guessing it's to make it jaggier/more powerful looking?

It's a consistent thing, at least

(or more natural or wild or something)

[edgy barn]

doesn't all of that apply to normal etv?

[sinful nimbus]

Flower ending is the worst writing in HK so its the most likely ending for SS to take place after

[brisk finch]

Yes, except for the flower
it's why I'm alright with arguing for either

They're the same ending when it comes to my reasoning specifically

[fading whale]

And when it comes to achievements

[umbral moth]

i mean, they basically are the same ending if you wanna be technical difbnadñfb

[brisk finch]

oh right, final reason:
No seriously I spend 200 hours in godhome or something, it better be canon

(for legal reasons that's a joke)

(for what it's worth, I think that'd be a bad reason like
oh it's difficult so it's real)

[fading whale]

The wait for dlc is agonising already and it's been two weeks since release

[naive crag]

when the knight shows up in the sister of the void ending you can hear the godhome motif for a second

[brisk finch]

I'm gonna be staring at that godhome placeholder

[fading whale]

Like silksong legit answers nearly nothing relevant and introduces a million more questions

[grand kayak]

Wait what placeholder

[brisk finch]

I am bad with music and sounds, would you be willing to give timestamps for a video?

[grand kayak]

Huh

[umbral moth]

GODSGLORY is very similar to the name godhome's dlc had earlier on before it was renamed too, "gods and glory"

[brisk finch]

It's funny how much they kept from HK
it's good game dev but like
the dunflies on the cogfly sheet
this
geo in the save file etc

[fading whale]

Oh shit that's real game files?

[umbral moth]

yeah

[grand kayak]

So it would be its own mode then?

[umbral moth]

yeah

[naive crag]

2:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRGddsDcyrE

[lean temple]

The problem is that in the flower ending specifically Void Given Focus gets nuked by the flower. The flower's power is already hinted at by WL, and we can just take this ending as revealing its power for the first time.

[brisk finch]

It's likely that whatever they end up doing for the bossrush will also get its own mode

[brisk finch]

the flower as shown in silksong cannot nuke anything lol
But it can push away/banish

[umbral moth]

godseeker was nuked so the void wouldn't spread further into hallownest, shade lord itself didn't get nuked

[brisk finch]

shadelord is just Void Given Focus

[edgy barn]

based on what we see in silksong, the flower shouldn't be able to straight up nuke shade lord. the one nuked was likely the godseeker

[umbral moth]

yeah

[fading whale]

It's not like hornet sees that happen, so it wouldn't change her memories of the flower. Not to mention I don't think it's a nuke I think it's a teleport or banishment

[brisk finch]

Thank you!

[fading whale]

And again the void was still in the early moments of leaking out, if it "hurt" the shade lord it would probably be like taking off dead skin

[umbral moth]

i wouldn't be surprised if shade lord was trapped in godhome until the soul snare was set off and a portal to godhome was opened, allowing the shade lord to once again be free

[brisk finch]

For me the simplest explanation is that, as void was able to enter godhome, void was able to leave

Although I'm not opposed to bringing in the snare

[umbral moth]

since the snail shaman from the first shrine mentions something about their god when talking about the soul snare if memory isn't failing me

[lean temple]

I'm not sure about the exact effect of the flower, but I'm still skeptical of the flower ending. EtV or DnM are the safest bet imo.

[fading whale]

I hear it it's like the first note

[eager blaze]

woahhh cool interaction between hornet and eva if you are overdosed on lifeblood

[fading whale]

I think they're just saying hornet should have known they would use the void cause she should have known snails have long been fascinated by it

[lean temple]

Yarnaby also has dialogue for it apparently

[fading whale]

That's cool, I didn't know that, I only tried going while having the parasite myself

[umbral moth]

yeah but they specifically refer to "their god", which to me sounds like they're talking about the shade lord

[brisk finch]

Could you give me something to search for? All I can find is

What duty binds you to this old chapel, madam? The structure barely stands, and I see no signs of congregation.Aye! Gone! The lot’o them, fled and hidden. But I’m not leaving till I’ve set this place right......It’s that Citadel above, you see. Even now, in Pharloom’s long decline, the simple bugs, they’re witless before it. Too grand. Too majestic. Too powerful.This building’s state is a sad example of those who’d dare suggest another path...

And nothing during the Snare dialogue

[ancient sinew]

Hi, what is the lore behind the Craws? Why is it that the Citadel seem to leave them alone, and how did they find out about Hornet’s “crime”?

[brisk finch]

But I may be overlooking it

[lavish tangle]

The snails worship the void not shade lord

[ancient sinew]

I don’t know if they worship it

[umbral moth]

first shrine caretaker, not the chapel maiden

[fading whale]

They don't worship it they're just fascinated by power and void is very powerful so they have inclinations towards it

[umbral moth]

give me a sec, i could probably find it

[fading whale]

They love power that's why they are fascinated by the old hearts, by soul, by the weavers, and by the void

[sonic dawn]

why was a robot from the citadel all the way down here

[fading whale]

But I dont think they worship the void

[lavish tangle]

Fell

[spark valve]

they're obviously talking about gms

[brisk finch]

Felled by pinstress' sister, seemingly, so maybe it's got to do with that

[umbral moth]

...gms isn't the god of the snail shamans

[spark valve]

god of pharloom

[lavish tangle]

Not even

[fading whale]

I can never remember that this statue in the background reminds me of from hollow knight but it feels very familiar

[lavish tangle]

Ruler of pharloom that happens to be a god

[cedar skiff]

i wish the fourth chorus was actually more.. important

that fight was my first jaw agape silksong moment

i guess it does its job narratively but it could have been brought up again in act 3

[fading whale]

I wish it was actually hard

[cedar skiff]

the big fucking robots in general

[lavish tangle]

1st chorus fight when

[ancient sinew]

Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise. [NPC]:Would you see her, pilgrim? Up there at our Citadel's crown? Reach those heights we'd hoped to hide and bow before this land's true ruler.

[lavish tangle]

Monarch and ruler, not god

[brisk finch]

I can''t find a line from shrine caretaker about their god either

[fading whale]

It's also stated in the game and I think by the snails that pharloom existed way before gms care around

[spark valve]

[Hornet]:I have known your kind before, sir. Yours is a tribe that works and trades in power, and I am about to extinguish its prime source.[Hornet]:Once this is done, will you truly delight in a land so bereft?[NPC]:Aye, well... My family's marks are all over that trap. And we've spent a hard age avoiding the gaze of our god.[NPC]:If we earned it now, after such open opposition... that's a bleak conclusion none of us'd care for.
bruh

[severe siren]

I hope they give each boss an actually properly difficult version than just the “ascended arenas” in HK
Variations in existing attacks or even new ones

[brisk finch]

True

[lavish tangle]

The land had power before the pale being arrived or smthn like that

[brisk finch]

Huh, that is CARETAKER_SNARE_TALK1

Now I'm paranoid google docs isn't loading properly

[lean temple]

Seems to mean GMS

[lavish tangle]

Our god being the void as they are not avoiding GMS, I mean the shrine care taker dude is like 10 feet away

[spark valve]

ofc it means gms

[umbral moth]

there we go, i knew there was a mention of the snail shamans worshipping a god when talking about the soul snare the first time

[spark valve]

yes they are avoiding gms

[brisk finch]

How does Summoned Saviour fit into any of this

[lean temple]

10 feet away and disguised. They don't reveal who/what they really are

[fading whale]

Just because she is their god and ruler right now doesn't mean they worship and submit to her I mean they are the first ones to wanna betray her

Their god isn't the void either , they aren't worshiping anything specifically

[limpid summit]

The citadel probably saw them as too weak to step on
They sort of roost anywhere we see this with the little hole in our house

[lavish tangle]

Idk if you want to hide yourself a change of clothes isn’t usually enough

[fading whale]

They're just obsessed with powerful forces

[limpid summit]

Wait this was so long ago my shit didn’t load

[lean temple]

That's true. They don't like her. I think he means "the god ruling this kingdom" not "our beloved deity"

[spark valve]

Your family is known to me, and no ordinary bug would dare ascend to this cradle. Don't you think it's past time you dropped the act of helpless pilgrim?[NPC]**:Gah! Curse you, Old One! Permit a bug their small disguise will ya! **
the shamans are disguised

[fading whale]

Thai is evident by how they talk about the old hearts and how they talk about the void too

[umbral moth]

...wait, fuck. i just realized this very dialogue contradicts that shade lord is their god because shade lord was relatively recent but they talk about a god their tribe has long avoided, nevermind anything i said

[lavish tangle]

Yeah they are not showing off their cursed heritage to every bug in the kingdom, but they are not necessarily hiding from GMS

[cedar skiff]

well the shade lord being brought into form is recent

[spark valve]

[Hornet]:I have known your kind before, sir. Yours is a tribe that works and trades in power,

[limpid summit]

The idea of one who can unite the void isn’t new but yeah Snail Shamans didn’t worship void

[cedar skiff]

but the concept of shade lord exsited

[quartz plinth]

Silksong if the shamans were good people:
"This trap will bring the forces of the void towards our enemy, red dressed girl, are you sure you want to proceed with it?"
And hornet is like
"Void forces? Im sorry gentleman, but i cannot bring myself to use this destructive force to kill the origin of the source, it would destroy pharloom and cause alot of death i would rather avoid."

[fading whale]

I'll say it again, they have no god, they are just interested in harnessing powerful forces and studying them

[cedar skiff]

"void given focus"