sk-lore

[brisk finch]

We never get scientific terms in these games

[lucid dirge]

seems weird to still have leftovers from it in game if so

[brisk finch]

Ay, but see, I'd argue that Coral in the reveal trailer already wouldn't have a wish wall based on what we know

I think there's an earlier version of that concept that was already scrapped by that time
The maps sadly don't provide me a lot of evidence for this, altho nothing contradicts it

True, characterization wise. I love Eira for just being Friendly in a dog way. Hornet has plenty of people to talk to.

[quartz salmon]

keep in mind that blasted steps is the coral gorge just with all the textures and enemies switched out so whatever was gonna happen there got condensed into the tower gauntlet we see today

[lucid dirge]

i will never forgive team cherry for cutting out THE POOP TOWN

[brisk finch]

There's also a mossblood quest (and a muckblood variant) from the alchemist. Plasmium is mentioned, but no lifeblood

You explicitely drain the moss creatures

[quartz salmon]

its coming back right here mark my words 2 years from now

[brisk finch]

The deprecated tag isn't that big and this stuff wasn't localized, it's just some text
Alchemist quest 3 is also still called for in the save file, it just never sets to true

[lucid dirge]

you will have to ride the poop train to poop town 🔥

[quartz salmon]

poop boat*

[brisk finch]

Ye they were docks iirc? Something like that

[quartz salmon]

yeah

[brisk finch]

Haven't found a reference to it yet, altho it's easy to overlook things

[quartz salmon]

like docks with a hermit npc

[lucid dirge]

im guessing they decided to cut out mossblood and muckblood because it probably would have been boring irrelevant shit and to just give us more lifeblood lore instead

[brisk finch]

I was so confused about Grubfarmer mimic for a while
Cause "Grubfarmer" is Styx
I forgot about the steel soul replacement XD

[quartz salmon]

apparently anything in the files related to it has the word "bay"

[brisk finch]

See, you'd think so

But this is one of the earliest maps shown to us (acmi)

[lucid dirge]

song eater lair??????

[brisk finch]

Also, I think muckblood was just an alternate for mossblood, they didn't exist at the same time

[spring escarp]

What are the lore implications of Lugoli being a baddie?

[brisk finch]

Also, the cut grubfarmer/Styx dialogue has Hornet mention killing black blob creatures like the act 3 remeet
...but it's act 1 dialogue

[lucid dirge]

i really hope the dlc expands and implements cut content honestly 🥀

[quartz salmon]

either the lifeblood spire became act 3 wormways or theyre keeping that idea in the vault

i REALLY wanna see more, what was in the game is STILL not enough

[lucid dirge]

even if its going to take way longer than hk dlc which was smaller

[lucid dirge]

lifeblood spire would genuinely be insane with what we know about it now

[brisk finch]

That map in full btw:

[spring escarp]

I gope they add act 4 and let us see pharloom bittersweetly fine.

[brisk finch]

someone was kind enough to share these on reddit

[spring escarp]

Where is this from

[brisk finch]

They call it the first map, but the screen suggests it's 2018

[lucid dirge]

"under the lava"

https://tenor.com/view/dexter-doakes-staring-suspicious-memes-gif-9038143639402170425

[brisk finch]

the acmi exhibit in australia rn

[spring escarp]

Isn't under the lava like... abyss?

I wanna see what is under the abyss

[brisk finch]

someone posted all these old maps to reddit

it's a part of the exhibit

[quartz salmon]

"void cult" area ended up being repurposed as the whisp thicket whch i think is good cause void shit in the middle of the map would be kinda weird

[brisk finch]

Abyss has always been Abyss

[spring escarp]

What under it tho

[brisk finch]

Could be the fire folks, or the snail shamans, or the steel soul only guys

[lucid dirge]

wisp thicket is cool i just wish we had more father of the flame lore but i guess its fine as is

[brisk finch]

the rest of the abyss, could be related to us just seeing the Shore in HK

[craggy smelt]

how tantalizing

[quartz salmon]

i think its the fire guys
theyre the most cult thing in the game i thnk

[spring escarp]

But is it all abyss

[brisk finch]

Ah, but they're not void cult
Summoned Saviour is actively a void/vessel mashup monster boss

[lucid dirge]

father of the flame isnt relevant enough to warrant as much info as the rest of the game but we still have enough for him to be interesting

[spring escarp]

Is the father of the flame and grimm related

[lucid dirge]

no i dont think so

[spring escarp]

The bugs look the same

[lucid dirge]

i mean grimm has fire powers but it doesnt really seem like his main thing

[spring escarp]

Clothes, red fire

[brisk finch]

To give you an idea of the state of these maps

[quartz salmon]

well they already got some stuff leftover from the development like sharpe, the barnacle bay, vespa boss fight, they could put all that in and then some

[modest coyote]

tbf we basicaly got lifeblood spire with ww

[lucid dirge]

this really makes me wish we had the citadel on the surface instead and it makes me sad cuz of how shit the coral tower ended up being 🥀 also song eater lair sounds crazy i hope they implement that later

[brisk finch]

See, yes
But that's what makes the mossblood/muckblood thing so interesting to me
These were separate ideas at one point

[craggy smelt]

coral gorge became the blasted steps, with only the tower left...
I wonder if a trip to memory town would replace the steps with the original coral, like Verdania of the past and those ruined caverns in the present

[spring escarp]

Anyone here has like the crave to go fuether beyond the edges of the map

Like, every time

Desperately grasping straws.

[lucid dirge]

i dont think wormways is anything close to what lifeblood spire would have been other than showing what lifeblood really does

[quartz salmon]

we already beat song eater so theres no point, i think their initial idea for that area would just be the bell veins

[spring escarp]

Wormways is so generic bruh

[modest coyote]

i understand WHY they changed coral to blasted steps

[spring escarp]

To make you empathize with the bugs

[spring escarp]

They should add deepnest on silksong

[modest coyote]

i mean they do it in every game hollowknig thas like 3 seperate wormways esque areas

[brisk finch]

Here's the confirmation. September 2021
Which is wild, because uh, no? We have trailers showing when the Tower came to be lol

[lucid dirge]

🥀

[spring escarp]

I want to see this whole presentation not fair

[modest coyote]

hollowknight LOVES small tunnels with big ahh enemies which do 2 damage

[brisk finch]

That's Verdania

[lucid dirge]

still i think lifeblood having its own spire would have shown more lifeblood lore

[modest coyote]

i think silksong only has 1.5 of those areas

[lucid dirge]

than just it being evil as shit

[craggy smelt]

hmmm....
Zylotol says his master found Plasmium originally 'at the farthest edge of Pharloom, hidden deep in salt-stricken waters.'
I wonder if that would be the coral gorge area, or on the other side of the kingdom in the 'barnacle bay' area

[modest coyote]

i dont think we needed more lifeblood lore in the bse game

[brisk finch]

The exhibit is mean btw, look at this text XD

I love it, I'm so glad it exists

[quartz salmon]

naw this is literally the bay area map piece in the files and it fits perfectly below bilewater and verdania

they just scrapped it

and it seems they did that pretty late

[brisk finch]

Read the text. "Bay" is verdania

Like, I love theorizing about cut content, but this came from TC themselves

[spring escarp]

Huh

Bay

Are there seas on bug world

Salt water hm

[quartz salmon]

yea its a sketch of the map and im sayin what i posted is from the files of the game

[brisk finch]

It could be that there's way more connections between Verdania and the hermit crab area than we thought
But I don't think they'd lie

[brisk finch]

And what I'm posting are TC's and the museum's own words

Verdania's existence=bay
Just does not leave much room to go "no it's this other thing"

[spring escarp]

verdania and the bell veins? Meh

[vale jetty]

Is there more interesting stuff found in game files/ datamined? I'm interested in these

[quartz salmon]

were showing eachother the same thing, youre showing me a wip sketch of the map from 2020 with a bay area on it, and im showing you the actual shape of it on the map above verdania where it would have been if they implemented it

[brisk finch]

And I'm saying that the text on the image says that the bay area is specifically Verdania and not the other area

[quartz salmon]

sure but things change in 5 years

[brisk finch]

They namedrop Verdania, which we know was separate from the grey place, assuming the grey place is the dock like hermit crab poop area

[glass canyon]

alright asking in lore instead- Male weavers, yes or no?

[quartz salmon]

and the image from the files fits perfectly + is labeled "bay"

[brisk finch]

I'm not denying it exists or where it was placed, I'm saying they actively name the area the map is referring to

[vale jetty]

Does anyone else find "Verdania" and "Karak" names to be slightly out of place? It doesn't mean anything. I don't think we had any proper nouns in HK, which weren't word formation of some kind

[brisk finch]

I thought Verdania just came from Verdant
green place

[vale jetty]

Verdania sounds like generative fantasy land, I'm not fan of this name

[brisk finch]

Like ay ye sure is
Sands of Karak does now make me wonder who/what Karak is meant to be

[quartz salmon]

youre right but it is just a vague blob with one word on it, the areas probably were split in 2 (bay and verdania) and then they removed the bay and ruined verdania to show us the citadel's effect on the world if i had to guess

[tropic arrow]

Verdania is very Arthurian myth-esque, in some aspects, and I like it

[tropic arrow]

Very on the nose with it too

[brisk finch]

It feels like it came from a different age

[tropic arrow]

Seeing as two of the enemies are named "Pendra" and "Pendragor", the Arthurian myth feeling of it is obviously intended

[brisk finch]

Based on the visuals we get for both I'm inclined to disagree, but I don't think we know enough for me to fully back that up
it's not impossible
Also, do you have a source for those images or did you extract them yourself?

[tropic arrow]

As for Karak

This is an educated guess (read, assumption) but it might have been the name of those lands before it dried up and became a desert

It may have been something like "Kingdom of Karak" or "Reefs of Karak" etc

[quartz salmon]

someone else found them in this channel i believe you can search for it

[brisk finch]

...you know what, fair enough
I've been so stuck on assuming it was Red Coral Gorge because that's true irl that I didn't even consider that

[quartz salmon]

i think its just what the coral guys call themselves

the Karak

[brisk finch]

The Karak?

Sands of Those Dead Guys We Didn't Like

[vale jetty]

Yeah, I agree, but IMO something like "Sands of Coral" fits HK world better, than Karak

[quartz salmon]

yeah since the soldiers are called karaka
the big ones are karak gor etc

[tropic arrow]

plausible

[brisk finch]

It does make sense

See, I mentioned this yesterday, but it's hitting me again today
So a lot of stuff in the games refers back to Coral
There's Coral_Judge, as an example, because that entire area used to just be coral and you're not gonna rename assets
The vast majority of it refers to the big area originally teased
Except

[quartz salmon]

everyone from the tower has Ks and Rs in their names intentionally except for these ones which is kinda weird but its probaly nothing (maybe since they dont look like the other Karak they might have been hired soldiers or smth like that)

[brisk finch]

This appears to be the only reference to Coral Tower that isn't about the final memory area

[quartz salmon]

wdym?

[austere coral]

Isn’t the king himself called Kharr iirc? Definitely relared to Karak, might be the overall species/group. My guess it that it means Sands of the Karakian people, or something similar. Either that or the original creator, perhaps a higher being similar to Unn, was called Karak

[brisk finch]

Every other blasted steps thing just says Coral
And every Coral Tower mention is about the memory

[brisk finch]

Khann, ay

[austere coral]

ooooh

thankies

[brisk finch]

Every other mention is super clear it's Red Coral or just Coral
Never Tower, unless it's specifically Coral Tower Memory

[tropic arrow]

Crust King Khann, yes

[lucid dirge]

i will never forgive tc for cucking coral tower this hard

[brisk finch]

(Also, in the grand tradition of miyazaki himself, Bilewater is in fact just SWAMP)

[tropic arrow]

I still find it interesting

We know Khann was a warrior lord, you'd think he'd go down swinging

but he seemingly died of age, sitting in his throne

[brisk finch]

...Good point

We know what happened to Verdania's rulers for their kingdom to die, but Khann really did just do... nothing, seemingly

[quartz salmon]

maybe its just tc spaghetti junk

[brisk finch]

They're actually really consistent in their naming, it's why it's so easy to find things

[vale jetty]

Do we know any lore behind the bird-like creature in Mount Fay? (I believe it's named Fay?)

[brisk finch]

And there's very few deprecated lines even in here

[robust wagon]

Not that I know of

[lucid dirge]

this is why im saying that whole area got cucked 🥀 🥀 🥀

[brisk finch]

The only mention is

Protective garb lined with the soft down of a Fayforn and sewn through with flexible spines.

[lucid dirge]

just underwhelming

[brisk finch]

Fayforn as a species

[quartz salmon]

Khann is confusing, great warlord commanding a well trained army, but they all die huddled together at the base of a tower

• when you beat him you get the achievement "Tyrant", which doesn't really seem to be what he was

[brisk finch]

I'd say preserved, more like. This could've easily been a forest of bones situation XD

[quartz salmon]

hmmm

[robust wagon]

Okay, does anyone know why, by the time of the game, the citadel is abandoned? Like seriously this is such a major plot point and as far as I can tell the game never explains it, I'm going insane over this

[brisk finch]

I wonder if being a backer character has to do with it

[quartz salmon]

is he?

[tropic arrow]

It's species is called Fayforn, and according to Mask Maker, the Weavers found it's company compelling, and built their structures and tuning devices near, although a tablet mentions that the climb is a challenge to reach the top, for an audiance with Fayforn, and that it is just as likely to grant death, as it is insight.

That is all we know

[brisk finch]

Am I mixing him up with someone else again

[austere coral]

considering the place was drying up, maybe the base of the tower was one of the last safe places for them?

either that or the King wanted his subjects with him in his fall

[quartz salmon]

probably confusing him with Sharpe

[knotty orbit]

quick thing to say, how long do yall think silksong takes place after hollow knight
cuz if u read some of the hunter's journal stuff, hornet is oooooooooollllldddddd.

[tropic arrow]

Pretty sure Khann is also made by a backer

[brisk finch]

NO I'M THINKING OF KARMELITA

Cause they're both red. Oops

[knotty orbit]

as in shakra being a fraction of her age and also hornet outliving multiple partners

[robust wagon]

At least a couple hundred years, but really, no measure of times actually means anything in hk

[vale jetty]

I don't think it really matters in this world, could be week, could be years

[neat sandal]

don't overthinking. just think it is this one but big

[brisk finch]

I think it's not actually that long after the ending. Hornet was already old in HK itself

[quartz salmon]

they just dont seem to be the types to die just sitting in a room

unless the watcher at the edge is tied to that
apparently he was waiting for something, a new life (?)

[tropic arrow]

We don't even know if a "year" in the world of Hollow Knight is the same as a year here

[knotty orbit]

i mean i'd assume they age like humans. at least my headcanon

[naive crag]

because everyones dead?

[knotty orbit]

id assume its similar to our concepts of time and aging til proven otherwise

[tropic arrow]

what do you mean by "abandoned"?

[brisk finch]

HK has some interesting devnotes where they specify they don't want to specify exact dates

[knotty orbit]

abandoned..?

[brisk finch]

HK is one long night

[tropic arrow]

and yeah, that's perfectly fine

[terse warren]

It's not abandoned, everyone got killed by Lace

[knotty orbit]

true yeah, cuz idk its either hornet was protecting hallownest for a LONG ass time, or she protected it for a hot minute and then decades passed between both games

[robust wagon]

Because one of the hunters journal entries mentions how hornet had many companions, but none of them matched her lifespan, also it's said that the tribe that made hornet's needle (the hive from hollow knight), is long gone

[vale jetty]

Woah, just thought of something pretty dark - TC might place Silksong a thousand "years" away from HK and they got very easy justification of not single cameo of HK character- they all died

[robust wagon]

What? When is that mentioned?

[tropic arrow]

....did you accidentally say Citadel instead of Hallownest in your first message?

[naive crag]

wdym whats this have to do with the citadel

[brisk finch]

Today

no days. its one long night

[austere coral]

Then maybe the Kings power was fading with the drying of Karak, and they needed to be close to keep living(assuming they needed water)

[brisk finch]

Hour

No specific time is ever perceptible. Enforces the idea of a world in stasis. 'An age ago' is okay.

[austere coral]

He protected the Base of the tower somehow

[robust wagon]

No? The citadel is full of the corpses which are then reanimated by GMS

[austere coral]

maybe

[quartz salmon]

probably meant to be interperted as an eternal darkness

[terse warren]

In a dialogue with Caretaker

Also the ones that are alive are being manipulated by GMS through Silk

[robust wagon]

Oh whoops I thought you were referring to something else

[tropic arrow]

I'm confused, what does the hive and anything in Hallownest have to do with you asking why the citadel is abandoned?

[robust wagon]

What's will all the corpses in the citadel then?

[naive crag]

the ones controlled by gms are most likely dead and she revives them to control them

[robust wagon]

Different topic

[open dragon]

Whiteward and Underworks really remind you just how fucked up The Citadel is as a whole...
Just a place of captilistic and religious pigs...

[brisk finch]

These are notes for themselves, mind you

Knight or knight?

is it always captialised. Should it be? Currently inconsistent in the text.

Lady, man

is lady okay? Check its usage. As a royal thing maybe? Or maybe better to avoid it completely.

Money?

probably should be just geo. but could say the kingdom's currency.

Rather

just check this hasn't been used too much by Ari.

[tropic arrow]

there are very much living people in the Citadel too

not all of it are corpses being puppeted by GMS

[naive crag]

theres a lot of pilgrims there somehow

[brisk finch]

That kind of makes me wonder: how long was Bellhart haunted for? Cause it can't actually have been that long, based on the shopkeeper dialogue

[robust wagon]

Hornet opening the gate

[naive crag]

but not anyone whos really from the citadel iirc

[brisk finch]

And that feels connected to the state of the Citadel

[knotty orbit]

also wait what is the caravan spider
cut content?

[brisk finch]

Ay, very early cut fast travel system
More like the stag, so they have dialogue

[knotty orbit]

ohh interesting

[brisk finch]

I posted some of the text earlier+ I made a reddit post if you want to read it in a non discord place

[vale jetty]

I know toned down Hornet voice lines, when compared to HK, are probably to not overwhelm players, but have you noticed she sounds different in HK? Like more duty-esque? She feels like an important sentinel, she has a duty, a bit unfledged, despite the age. But in Silksong she saw a lot of shit during HK and got more toned down

[brisk finch]

Gender notes

the hollow knights have no gender. Check for hims and hes. Is the Wyrm King gendered? probably. or is it that when the wyrm took king form it gained a gender?Hornet is the Gendered Child. She can be referred to as female.
Lore drop: Hornet is female

[knotty orbit]

i think thats what i saw earlier

[tropic arrow]

Seeing as there seems to be some cut content in the files, including a whole ending (that likely got replaced by Weaver Queen), I have to ask, is there any hint of the Steel Assassins and/or Sharpe in the files?

[knotty orbit]

also oh my god i genuinely love the citadel as a setting so much

[robust wagon]

Plus she's a lot older

[vale jetty]

we don't know that

[brisk finch]

I don't recall seeing anything in the text or the save. I don't have access to images

[open dragon]

I really want that Weaver Queen hud ngl, that looks too cool to not use

[knotty orbit]

the like, steampunk kinda shit going on in like the core is super sick

[vale jetty]

I mean, she's definitely older, but "a lot"?

[brisk finch]

I do think Sharpe will make it in, if only as a backer promise
But it's just so odd

[knotty orbit]

either way hornet's unc status

[terse warren]

I've already said Lace is killing people

[open dragon]

Watch as we get a Godmaster equivalent and Hornet turns into the Weaver Queen with her conciousness intact lol

[robust wagon]

Well it's heavily implied, since the hive (from Hallownest) is said to be long gone (mentioned after getting needle 3) by the time of silksong

[brisk finch]

Altho I am really happy with Summoned Saviour
That's such a dope concept

[robust wagon]

Okay but I don't think she could have killed almost the entire citadel

[vale jetty]

I believe Hive is long gone in HK as well?

[robust wagon]

The bees are still alive

[vale jetty]

You know, City of Tears is also still "alive"

but I'd say it's gone

[naive crag]

because of radiance

they arent actually alive

whole hallownest is a dead kingdom

[robust wagon]

Ig? But there's also the fact that it's mentioned in a hunters journal note that Hornet had many partners, but none of them could match her lifespan

[brisk finch]

I would say the Hive is pretty Gone in HK yeah
Hornet's Hive backstory wasn't invented for Skong, after all. If there was anything there for her, she'd have shown some sign of it

I assumed she had those partners before the fall of Hallownest

Before she went into full Sentinal mode

[tropic arrow]

Pure Vessel wasn't an instant failure, so this is the most likely option

[vale jetty]

Couldn't we say the same of her during HK events? Why not, if?

[brisk finch]

Yeah it appears that Hallownest hasn;t even been failing all that long when we arrive

If anything, Ghost returns because the HK is failing hard now
+travel time

[robust wagon]

Well when would she have the time to do this if she's protecting hallownest's ruin?

[tropic arrow]

I do wonder how differently each kingdom might have looked, if instead of Grand Mother Silk, Pale King arrived in Pharloom and vice versa

[blissful knoll]

Something random I noticed in japanese, the white lady refers to the higher beings as a whole seemingly, using "our clan" when talking about their being intrinsicly linked to the void instead of using "our family" (pale kings cookery). Some cool implications, or its just a localization quirk lol

[brisk finch]

Not the one you replied to, but like I said: She had partners when Hallownest was perfectly fine, and probably even after the HK was locked away, when things were also still pretty fine

[tropic arrow]

she is talking bout being intricately linked to Everbloom, not Void

[robust wagon]

Well actually since there aren't any higher being in Pharloom (as far as we know) the kingdom probably could've lasted eternal with the pale king

[tropic arrow]

She is also likely referring to Pale Beings specifically, rather than Higher Beings as a whole

[brisk finch]

Silk Song appears to be using the terms interchangeably

[robust wagon]

Yeah okay, that's one interpretation that makes sense

[tropic arrow]

I cannot recall it ever doing that, and the only higher beings that ever appear in the game are also pale beings

[neat sandal]

she sought.
and sought is attempt to find
may my english is wrong
but from I understand that she try to find but have none

[brisk finch]

Yeah I'm not saying it's the only way it could have happened, but the "when" isn't in question if that's what happened, because there's plenty of time

[robust wagon]

Well we don't know, since the only higher beings mentioned likely are pale beings

[tropic arrow]

what it does do is dismiss the notion that all pale beings are higher beings

[brisk finch]

So uh
funny thing about that

it's not "beings"

it's one mention

Yes I'm calling myself out here

[tropic arrow]

Oh

[robust wagon]

Well a pale being is a higher being, just stronger than non-pale ones

[tropic arrow]

I was about to ask how that changed anything

[crisp musk]

A new iteration of them most likely

[tropic arrow]

Lace and Palestag are both referred to as pale beings, and neither are higher beings

Lace is called stuff like "pale one" on several occasions

and Palestag is self explanatory

[brisk finch]

It means Skong uses the title exactly once, in relation to GSM, so no conclusion whatsoever can be drawn
it isn't even that it uses it for the same beings as the pale beings
It's literally just once

[robust wagon]

Wait just being called pale doesn't make you a pale being

[crisp musk]

Yeah
Lace is fully silk, and maybe some song

[tropic arrow]

the game uses the word sparingly, and basically only ever in relation to pale beings, so

[knotty orbit]

wait im jumping in mid convo, so pale king and grand mother silk are both pale beings, correct?

[robust wagon]

Pale oil?

[tropic arrow]

Also:

Here, the trail of the stag touched pale... We hunted her, felled her, as none before were able...

[brisk finch]

I do feel like Lace is divine, in contrast to the Weavers according to First Sinner
So I'm inclined to say she at least falls into the Pale Being category

[tropic arrow]

same deal as pale ore. Unknown relation to pale beings.

[blissful knoll]

JP very clearly words it that she is talking about the void (in fact they dont even put the "first light" line on the same screen as the rest for some reason) and even in EN it reads to me like she is talking about the void (atleast to me ig)

about the pale beings thing, yeah makes sense

[robust wagon]

Well but just because it's used on creatures that could be pale beings doesn't mean it's only used on pale beings

[brisk finch]

I could see that be, essentially, a religious marketing thing
We have real life items named after gods and the like to show how Good they are

[dreamy steppe]

it seems like it has some sort of connection to divinity but its doesn't necessarily make you one. i interpreted it as them just being blessed in some way

[brisk finch]

Pale ore and Pale oil are both so good and useful and rare they must be gifts from the heavens or whatever

[knotty orbit]

we dont actually know where grand mother silk came from, right?

[robust wagon]

Exactly, that's what I'm saying

[dreamy steppe]

they definitely dont make it obvious if there is anything about it

[robust wagon]

No we don't

[knotty orbit]

not even just that, like... what is she
like yeah ik she's a pale being but she doesnt even look like a bug

her design is just really interesting, makes me wonder what the fuck she is or who she is or where she came from

[tropic arrow]

"Witness, the first light. The only means we possess to resist the void with which our family is forever linked."

Sure it can be read that way, but she is pretty clearly referring to the Everbloom, the flower that explicitly emits a pale glow.

[quartz salmon]

the only things we know is that shes a pale higher being, made the weavers and is the source of silk

[blissful knoll]

I suppose not clear enough to me or the JP localizer, well it was just a random fun thing i noticed anyway

[brisk finch]

I mean, purely grammar wise, she'd be referring to the void

[dreamy steppe]

im not sure what the community consensus is but what i got from my play through is that it seems like someone was collecting silk from weavers and using it in some way to create a god. theres a lot of artificial life in the game thats created the same way

[brisk finch]

That's actually a pretty badly written line in that way

[dire lynx]

shes talking about the atrocities committed to the vessels in the abyss in that quote, or thats how i interpreted that

[blissful knoll]

oh so it wasnt just me then

[tropic arrow]

Pale ore explicitly is connected to pale beings, so I can only assume the same for pale oil

[dire lynx]

pale oil comes from the glands of a slug

[knotty orbit]

ok im looking at the wiki and apparently it seems like she mightve created the weavers

[tropic arrow]

Regardless, pale is used sparingly, and pale beings are clearly differentiated, so I am going to assume it's important if X is referred to as pale

[brisk finch]

Bile gland of a rare sylphean slug. Talented pinmasters can use the glistening liquid within to improve a blade's sharpness.

[knotty orbit]

the weavers then kinda wanted to be their own thing and then she crashed out. jist of what im reading here

[tropic arrow]

This doesn't really contradict much

[brisk finch]

What about this is godly

[knotty orbit]

tho idk cuz there's dialogue saying there was a monarch prior to her arrival so idk

[lucid dirge]

i feel sad about how rushed the later half of act 3 clearly is in this game

[brisk finch]

The source is a slug. Rare and so we Must Be Grateful For This Gift, but not explicitely connected

[tropic arrow]

Are you saying slugs can't be gods?

[brisk finch]

I'm saying I don't trust the snails and their ilk

[lucid dirge]

sands of karak was clearly rushed as hell and nyleth is so boring 😭

same thing for the area before nyleth like theres barely anything

[tropic arrow]

Neither feels rushed to me

[dreamy steppe]

i feel like thats not correct.. why is one of them imprisoned then? where did they all go? why do they want hornet to reclaim the kingdom? why are they collecting "weavers in part"?

[brisk finch]

I wouldn't call it rushed. It gets the same amount of content as the rest of em.
Nyleth gets Seth

[quartz salmon]

what confuses me is the use of the word "sylphean" cause Eva is also a "sylph" according to the skill she gives us

NOT saying Eva is a slug but there must be some connection

[robust wagon]

What dialogue is this?

[brisk finch]

No I am saying Eva is a slug

[dreamy steppe]

rushed.....? you could say its incomplete but its definitionally not rushed. there was no deadline for them to meet

[tropic arrow]

We know for a fact that Grand Mother Silk "created" the Weavers, via uplifting the Pharlids of Pharloom into the Weavers

[crisp musk]

I did quite like Nyleths fight
A bold move to take away the ground

[knotty orbit]

sorry not monarch gimme a sec

[lucid dirge]

literally look at the reveal trailer
its pretty clear karmelita got the least affected but sands of karak barely has anything interesting in it , coral tower is just a lame wave fight before a really easy boss and nyleth is easily forgettable with a lame area

[tropic arrow]

She lied to the Weavers about this, saying they were her children and divine

[quartz salmon]

MIGHT be consistent with the fact that shes fragile and needs to be contained in an iron shell

[knotty orbit]

@robust wagon

[crisp musk]

Less "rushed", more just "incomplete"
There wasnt any deadline
2 more years and we would have 4 more biomes

[tropic arrow]

Nyleth has been one of the most interesting act 3 things for me

[brisk finch]

We literally have the map progression over the years, that entire area was gone by 2021

[dreamy steppe]

where did this come from?

[brisk finch]

ACMI has the maps up

[tropic arrow]

First Sinner cutscene

[knotty orbit]

cuz the weavers i guess wanted to be their own thing, which GMS didnt approve of? something like that

[dire lynx]

first sinner cutscene

[dreamy steppe]

oh yeah

[knotty orbit]

what actually happened in the first sinner cutscene again i straight up dont remember lmfao

[brisk finch]

"Red Coral Gorge is removed"

[crisp musk]

I really want to know the crime of the first sinner

[tropic arrow]

First Sinner and her discovery is probably why relations between GMS and the Weavers turned sour

[tropic arrow]

Apostasy, the act of abandoning one's faith

[quartz salmon]

its the opposite of the pale king
he created a ton of children and discarded them
mother silk created a ton of weavers and didnt want them to leave

[robust wagon]

Mmm yep okay this is referring to Kermelita, Khann, and Nyleth

[knotty orbit]

right

[dire lynx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoC9sh0866k skip to 5:11

[tropic arrow]

And Verdania

[dreamy steppe]

but still if she created the weavers then why are the weavers gone and why is gms so interested in getting their offspring captured

[brisk finch]

Yeah. They didn't know the power still lingered, but it's from that era

[crisp musk]

In comparison to pharloom
The Pale King was a damn saint towards Hallownest

[knotty orbit]

its referring to them but the citadel also existed prior to her arrival, right? like id assume so..?

[quartz salmon]

nope

[tropic arrow]

Revenge, probably. The Weavers betrayed her at some point

[brisk finch]

GSM made the Weavers, who made the Citadel themselves and then fled

There's some time in between

[crisp musk]

GMS wants hornet as a vessel for her might

[robust wagon]

Yeah sure

[tropic arrow]

Something one will notice is that, in the world of Hollow Knight, turning your back on a Higher Being does not have pretty results

[dire lynx]

they are the ones who trapped her in that silk cocoon, when she began stirring they all fled

[brisk finch]

The currently shown Citadel was probably not made my the Weavers, but the bones it's build on are
The architecture comes from the religious group that came after

[robust wagon]

I wouldn't, she's all over their iconography

[knotty orbit]

i love it when shit like this just leaves my memory

[dreamy steppe]

so...? lace betrayed her as well and she almost destroyed the entire kingdom to keep her alive regardless

[knotty orbit]

i didnt even get the implication that she created the weavers LMFAO

[knotty orbit]

yeahh thats fair

[robust wagon]

Yooooo ACMI mentioned 🔥

[brisk finch]

Lace was a perfect creation of her own making. The Weavers were uplifted and Phantom sucked for reasons unknown

[tropic arrow]

Lace comes more directly from her than the Weavers. She seemingly cares more for her.

[brisk finch]

Someone was kind enough to post all the maps to Reddit

[quartz salmon]

but yeah do we know why she was tracking down the offspring of the weavers in all these different kingdoms?

was it to sustain her power or something? i dont remember getting a clear answer to that in the game

[robust wagon]

I went, I probably should've saved photos 😭

[brisk finch]

Yes. Someone pointed out that the percentages, with Hornet, come down to 1 full Weaver

[dreamy steppe]

what makes you say this?

[brisk finch]

Do you have the zine?

[dreamy steppe]

shes not really trapped considering she just leaves it when hornet walks up

[tropic arrow]

Something may have existed in place of the Citadel, it may even have been called the Citadel, but it would not resemble what we know. The Citadel as we know it was made by the Weavers, and designed specifically to keep GMS eepy.

[robust wagon]

Yes I do

[knotty orbit]

wait yeah why was hornet captured i straight up dont remember

[brisk finch]

Would you be willing to describe its contents real quick?

I don't need 64 pictures, just an idea of what's in there

[robust wagon]

Well it's mostly just about how developing the game was different from hollow knight, no secret lore details or cut content, sadly

[brisk finch]

Her power. She was the most powerful weaver ofspring they've found so far

[quartz salmon]

thats cool but it still doesnt really explain why

was it for power, was it to like splice the weaver and make new ones or what

[tropic arrow]

Which is why I think she is still in her slumber/eepy when fighting Hornet

[brisk finch]

Is it all interviews and public images?

[tropic arrow]

It is amusing too

[knotty orbit]

no wonder she's so weak lol

[brisk finch]

My personal take is that GSm breaks free when Hornet approaches because she's now near the power of a full weaver (the ones captured and consumed+ Hornet)

[dreamy steppe]

trvke

[knotty orbit]

(i beat her on my second attempt i think)

[brisk finch]

GSM is so much fun cursed

[robust wagon]

Just one interview, then a summary of development of hollow knight and what the fandom did during the years until silksong lol

[knotty orbit]

oop wait i havent done cursed ending yet

[brisk finch]

Thank you 😄 It makes sense no one has posted that now, but it was driving me up the wall

[robust wagon]

Haha, it's alright, I'd feel the same if I were you

[quartz salmon]

hmmmmm

[brisk finch]

I wish they'd publish the maps and sketchbooks properly tho

[dreamy steppe]

how would that work? shes right there screaming at you and shes controlling the entire kingdom. how could she possibly be sleeping

[quartz salmon]

theyre gonna for sure

[tropic arrow]

Regardless of whether she was still asleep even while Hornet fought her or not, I do not think Hornet fought her at her full might

[robust wagon]

Yeah it'd be really convenient

[brisk finch]

Are they? They never did for HK
Source?

[dire lynx]

that actually really PMO, i went and got an extra mask cuz i was struggling with only six, but as soon as i do that i run the boss hitless

[brisk finch]

I mean it btw, I'd love to know

[tropic arrow]

She made Lace and Phantom while asleep. She is clearly capable of complex thought and action in her slumber.

[quartz salmon]

my source is hope

[brisk finch]

I've dedicated 1tb to silksong, you don't understand

[brisk finch]

It really does basically force you to do it hitless, but there's still some space for error, which lessens the mental load
it's just fun

[dreamy steppe]

im homestly just confused why you think shes asleep in the first place. it kind of just looks like shes chilling up there

[quartz salmon]

theres just no way they went through the trouble of getting the sketchbooks and all that shit and they dont scan it and upload it

[dire lynx]

its fun, just the extra time i did for the mask only to no hit annoyed me lol

[tropic arrow]

Heart of the Haunting, long lulled to slumber and desperate to wake. The higher being’s threads stretched throughout Pharloom, snaring its bugs and driving them to madness and discord.

Hunter journal

[quartz salmon]

ohhhh

[dreamy steppe]

ah i see

[knotty orbit]

god this game is bleak

[wild falcon]

Is there reason why first sinner has no hands?

[tropic arrow]

This too I suppose

[quartz salmon]

then by who? the weavers ?

[tropic arrow]

Hornet: You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.
Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[knotty orbit]

ngl i dreaded every time i had to go back to whiteward,, screw that place i hate it there

[dire lynx]

yes

[tropic arrow]

Yes. The Citadel is itself designed by the Weavers to keep her eepy

[knotty orbit]

whiteward's music is deadass just amnesia ambience i hate it every time

[wild falcon]

Silent Hill mental asylum

[quartz salmon]

i see

[tropic arrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpPlGcq4Q3k

[dreamy steppe]

how so?

[brisk finch]

Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[tropic arrow]

Seemingly has something to do with song

[knotty orbit]

unethical experimenation always freaks me the fuck out, i felt like i was in that one part from outlast with the doctor trying to kill you

[tropic arrow]

Either way, the whole pilgrimage and religion and what not is a sham, constructed religion to keep her asleep

[quartz salmon]

then we can assume that her influence still leaked through her threads and she commanded all the choir bugs to go to distant lands and bring weavers that could wake her up and replenish her power

[steady hill]

was the bell eater the one who made the bell tunnels?

[wild falcon]

Indiscriminate science stains surgeon's hands

[tropic arrow]

The Weavers even deified themselves, while they were ruling

[dreamy steppe]

yeah i mean i understand that it is true i just dont see what part of the citadel is accomplishing that

[brisk finch]

GSM deified them firs ttho

[tropic arrow]

no

[brisk finch]

That's what FS is so mad about. She lied

[tropic arrow]

Ah

[brisk finch]

She called them her daughters

[tropic arrow]

Being called her divine children =/= deity

[wild falcon]

"You gave us life, so we gave you song"
What's the meaning of the song in this case?

[brisk finch]

I'd argue that it does mean that? We don't call demi gods divine children

[tropic arrow]

There is a difference between Weavers calling themselves things like "deity of time" with Atla and what not, and GMS calling them divine

[quartz salmon]

theyre just mutated pharlids yeah
and speaking against mother silk got her locked up

[tropic arrow]

that kind of thing 100% wasn't allowed while GMS was ruling

[brisk finch]

she doesnt call herself that

[dreamy steppe]

yeah i guess so

[brisk finch]

Carving of Atla, Weaver of time. A prayer is etched upon it.“By grace of your example, and our history held full in mind, our song is yours, as your name is sacred. Weaver Atla, may you be praised eternal.”

Your example and our history

That's what's being pointed to, not her mighty powers
Her name is sacred for, seemingly, how she's acted and what she';s done

[tropic arrow]

Doesn't really change the point much still

[brisk finch]

Closer to a saint than a self proclaimed god

That changes intent

[tropic arrow]

It changes things, but not my point

[brisk finch]

It does, if the Weavers didn't call themselves deities at all

You explicitely said they did and named one, and I'm saying no, that's not what it says

[tropic arrow]

Sure, doesn't change my point, that kind of thing wouldn't have flown under GMS' rule

[brisk finch]

We know nothing of her rule

[tropic arrow]

I highly doubt she would have allowed it, personally speaking

[brisk finch]

Based on what?

[tropic arrow]

Well we know from several Weaver sources that she was highly controlling and obsessive

[brisk finch]

We don't even know how much she ruled. The Citadel is Weaver made, so did she even have subjects at that point?

[green yoke]

Just realized I've seen people in this chat fervently denying Snails had anything to do with Void back in Hollow Knight, when Mossbag put out a video that asserts the connection three years ago before we had anything of Silksong outside the initial look

[dreamy steppe]

isnt there a giant room full of snail shells where you get abyss shriek?

not giant but still

[robust wagon]

Those aren't snail shells

[brisk finch]

It's fascinating how much Silksong clarifies about Hollow Knight

[robust wagon]

They have eyes

[green yoke]

Isn't that room just a bunch of giant faces?

[robust wagon]

Like daughter of three queens, still so glad that finally got confirmed to be canon

[dreamy steppe]

oh yeah i was remembering wrong sorry

[brisk finch]

I actually cheered out loud

That has always been one of my favorite "facts" and I'm so glad it's real now

[robust wagon]

Lmao me too I was freaking out when I saw the hive in the red memory 😭

[brisk finch]

I basically considered it confirmed when the Needle upgrades got cheeky

[dreamy steppe]

seeing the huge deepnest room with the elevator made me scream

[brisk finch]

At least the Hornet name clarification bit
but then
Red Memory

[knotty orbit]

my friend was talking about how he liked that theory not too long ago,,, waiting for him to reach the red memory sequence lol

[robust wagon]

I started losing it when I saw a glimpse of Hallownest architecture lmao

[dreamy steppe]

same

[brisk finch]

It's not even a theory, TC confirmed that was their intent when writing HK, but they never put it in the game

That's why I drove me wild

[knotty orbit]

the gasp i let out..

[robust wagon]

That's gonna be so good lol

[knotty orbit]

ah interesting. well its neat to see it in game too, ughhfgjfhg

[brisk finch]

And also, why I'm willing to take TC's words and cut content into account just a little bit when it comes to theorizing
It never overrides real canon, but it's something I keep in the back of my mind

[robust wagon]

They also couldn't say wether is was still canon or not

[muted rover]

I think Silksong or specifically Pharloom is similar to Blasphemous 1

[knotty orbit]

wait oh my god we're discussing the wrong lore. can we talk about HIM for a moment

[brisk finch]

Exactly, because they may change their mind when writing the Hornet dlc or whatever
And now they confirm they didn't
And it's grande

[knotty orbit]

yall know who im referring to..

[brisk finch]

Dad's not invited

[dreamy steppe]

some people were talking earlier about the citadel being made by weavers and i was wondering: if its made by weavers then why is the architecture so different? whats with all of the clockwork stuff instead of the advanced technology the weavers had?

[brisk finch]

I need the front facing sprite of Hornet in White Palace garb though

[robust wagon]

Yeah, I was worried they confirm it wasn't canon in silksong lol

[knotty orbit]

the Herald.........

[dreamy steppe]

why

[brisk finch]

I'm assuming the Weavers made "The Citadel"
And then later people made their own architecture on top

The basic idea is theirs, the actual walls aren't

[robust wagon]

Yeah, like PV in armour :(

[dreamy steppe]

i felt like the biggest inspirations were dark souls 3 and bloodborne

[muted rover]

i wish i could remember blasphemous 1 lore perfectly

but i don't

[brisk finch]

PV at least has the few frames
Hornet just gets a back sprite :((

[muted rover]

maybe specifically the themes with pilgrims and penitents

[robust wagon]

Yeah probably bloodborne with the stuff going on in whiteward (I'll admit I know nothing about bloodborn)

[knotty orbit]

i still wish we knew what the gibberish mr mushroom is always spouting means

[brisk finch]

HK has a few game references in there

[robust wagon]

The confusing words or the actual gibberish?

[brisk finch]

I haven't actually dug into Skong's yet

[knotty orbit]

the english words pff

[robust wagon]

I'm waiting for mossbag to do that lmao

[muted rover]

and how Grand Silk Mother has used its citizens, i forgot the lines in the first shrine

Something about the citizens brainwashed deep(?), im not sure if that's the right words

[knotty orbit]

like i know the first game has some reference to hungry knight but thats all i know

[muted rover]

similar to the High Wills using the citizen's faith/penance to gain more power if im right

[brisk finch]

Wiki tells me the third dialogue is a reference to Team Cherry's TOmb Cat

I feel like I remember there being more, but it's been actual years

[robust wagon]

I think that's more about the silk implanted into the citizens by whiteward

[lucid dirge]

its similar in the sense that theres weird experimenting with power that they dont understand yet and transforming others into disgusting creatures

[robust wagon]

Okay yeah

[lucid dirge]

that and getting kidnapped into a whole optional area

[brisk finch]

I'm kind of surprised we never had an imposter iosefka/chapel beast situation

[muted rover]

i think that's more accurate

anyway there are some very similar themes with Blasphemous 1

[brisk finch]

I was so worried about the fleas, what with just sending randos to them

[robust wagon]

Outside of the slab, I can't think of many tbh

[robust wagon]

I was worried they'd all get eaten like the grubs again 😭

[brisk finch]

It shares BB's theme of Motherhood and Gods Are Wack Y'all

[lucid dirge]

sending npcs to bone bottom only for them to die horribly due to the skull tyrant 🥀

[brisk finch]

The grubs are fine! It's grubfather who will likely not survive, like a happier Huntress

[brisk finch]

Pilby is seen dying in the announcement trailer, and even he gets to make it
(to Pilgrim's Rest, where he promptly despawns according to the files)

[robust wagon]

I knoooow but it's still unpleasant seeing them all in grubfathers stomach :(

[brisk finch]

(there is no further Pilby journey)

[muted rover]

perhaps also i wouldn't stay here for too long since i haven't got all the endings

But fighting Grand Silk Mother, i think Radiance was harder to fight and intro/title card didn't hit the same with Grand Silk Mother

[lucid dirge]

!?????? I THOUGHT HE WAS DEAD

[muted rover]

But Grand Silk Mother looks cooler

[lucid dirge]

did i miss saving pilby 😭

[brisk finch]

Pilby can die to Skull Tyrant, but he can also leave before the attack and make it to Pilgrim's Rest
That it's, tho
He can't spawn anywhere else and he doesn't have any more dialogue

[robust wagon]

Yeah same here, the whole title screen for radiance is cool asf

[lucid dirge]

FUUUUUUUUUUCK

[dreamy steppe]

its very aesthetically and thematically similar

[lucid dirge]

FUCK MY STUPID SILK LIFE

[dreamy steppe]

for dark souls literally the whole pilgrim thing is straight from ds3

[muted rover]

wish Grand Silk Mother has a cooler introduction

[brisk finch]

There's another variant
Either he dies nameless
Or Hornet knows his name
Or he tells Hornet his name at Pilgrim's Rest

It depends on when you start act 2

[robust wagon]

Yeah, or more lore

[knotty orbit]

im gonna fucking scream

[robust wagon]

Actually come to think of it I'm so sad that GMS was the only new higher being 😭

[knotty orbit]

honestly? im fine with how much info we have on grand mother silk

[brisk finch]

Honestly, Pilby confuses me
I don't understand why he (and tbh, Huntress too) just stops existing when you save his life

[knotty orbit]

makes her more weird and mysterious

[brisk finch]

Why does the death route get a satisfying conclusion, but they just despawn if they live?

[dreamy steppe]

even the important stuff doesn't have any of their architecture though. like the giant cylinders and the gramophones and literally everything else

[knotty orbit]

i genuinely love how she looks, she looks like a proper god in the sense that she doesnt even look like a bug at all

[lucid dirge]

gathering the old hearts (old souls) is pretty similar to what we do in ds3 to reach soul of cinder (to be able to go in the void)

[brisk finch]

tbf, that feels like more modern tech

[robust wagon]

Yeah, so much more human than any other character

[brisk finch]

I can't kill enough praying pilgrim's near edges for it to be an accurate comparison
(Joke)

[lucid dirge]

TOTAL PILGRIM DEATH

[knotty orbit]

humanoid*, FAR from human tbh

[dreamy steppe]

but the weavers tech is already incredibly advanced why would anyone build over it. also WHO would be building over it

[neat sandal]

those simple bug that can't use silk like weavers?

[robust wagon]

Well, aside from her legs forming into one, you could probably cosplay her pretty accurately

[brisk finch]

So, my personal hc for now is that, after the Weavers fled, the people living under them took over those spaces and made them suitable for normal life

[dreamy steppe]

they have no need to

[brisk finch]

While the religious aspect just kept growing

[knotty orbit]

true

[brisk finch]

I cannot see Sherma survive in a Weavernest, as an example

I don't even know if they could use those elevator things

It would need to be replaced

[neat sandal]

why?

[lucid dirge]

sherma after having his 8th plate of silk

[dreamy steppe]

yeah but like... who? we dont really see that architecture anywhere else. it kind of looks like it might have been there longer than the weavers and they just put their own stuff over it

[brisk finch]

Noooo, we didn't save him from whiteward for no reason

[robust wagon]

*his

[lucid dirge]

dude idfk 😭

[brisk finch]

We know there was a Weaverless, seemingly GSMless caste at some point

[robust wagon]

Alrighty, sorry

[lucid dirge]

its ok atleast now i know

[brisk finch]

No X? There was! GSM is literally just waking up and the Weavers have been gone for ages!

[dreamy steppe]

there were a bunch of them. verdania seemingly was the last one we know about

[brisk finch]

There was a period where neither was in control, based on that info

[brisk finch]

True, but I guess I am talking specifically about the area currently known as the Citadel

My current theory is that they just kept calling the big top area "Citadel", regardless of who was ruling it, so when they say "Citadel" you can't actually assume who was in charge at that point

"The Citadel did XYZ" doesn't say who did it

[tropic arrow]

From what we can tell, the Conductors ruled

[dreamy steppe]

oh yeah even there it was definitely previously owned

[tropic arrow]

Is our state so bare, pilgrim?... "By the will of the Conductors," we once boomed, and this Citadel shook at our decree.
But the words... How hollow they echoed. The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown.
Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise.
Would you see her, pilgrim? Up there at our Citadel's crown? Reach those heights we'd hoped to hide and bow before this land's true ruler.

[brisk finch]

(Also, I'm totally fine with people disagreeing with me cause I am not perfect dear lord
but please don't just randomly emote without telling me what I said that was incorrect. I love learning new things and it's easy to forget journal entries and stuff)

[dreamy steppe]

based

[tropic arrow]

It basically goes

-GMS rule
-GMS put to sleep by Weavers
-The Citadel as we know it is made to keep GMS sleeping
-The Weavers fade from power
-The Conductors take over from the Weavers
-The silk infusions in Whiteward eventually lead to GMS gaining many minds to control. The Haunting, it seems, was a slow burn, and not an immediate take-over

[brisk finch]

I think the Conductors were the rulers right before the in game era, but I also feel like there was likely a group before them, after the Weavers

[dreamy steppe]

me too

[tropic arrow]

Ballador says they took the rule from the Weavers

there doesn't seem to be a group between Weavers and Conductors

"The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown."

[dreamy steppe]

oh nevermind then i guess lol

[brisk finch]

To me, it feels like
GMS -> GMS makes Weavers -> Weavers take over and GMS naps -> GMS stirs and the Weavers flee -> In between era of a stirring GMS+normal folks -> Conductors -> current era
With whiteward experiments lasting for "generations", probably starting in the conductor era

[brisk finch]

Good point!

Although that makes me wonder. If the Weavers fled GSM, what is the order of events truly, there?

[neat sandal]

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.
We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

[tropic arrow]

I imagine some Weavers first left Pharloom after GMS was put to slumber, maybe viewing her as a ticking time bomb

In which they'd be correct

[neat sandal]

simple bugs just take the power then spiders free to runaway

[tropic arrow]

The text you quoted implies the Weavers did not flee Pharloom after passing on their rule, actually

That 2nd line is not the words of someone who fled

I imagine those are the Weavers in the statue things we find across Pharloom

[brisk finch]

I guess we do know they didn't all flee

Plenty fled, all to different places (and I'm so excited to have more names!)
And some stayed

[dreamy steppe]

i wonder where they all are now

[tropic arrow]

Well some had fled to Hallownest

[brisk finch]

RELIC_WEAVER_RECORD_CONDUCTOR_DESC
Last words of the Weavers.“Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free.”

[tropic arrow]

others just fled to various places out from Pharloom

[brisk finch]

It's this bit btw, for context

[dreamy steppe]

yeah but then they left there as well

why did they even leave hallownest again i forgot

[tropic arrow]

Infection

[dreamy steppe]

oh yeah lmfao

[tropic arrow]

they left back for Pharloom after the infection started rearing it's head, presumably preferring whatever they may find in Pharloom preferable to the infection

[dreamy steppe]

what makes you say they specifically went back to pharloom

[brisk finch]

GSM wouldn't have been doing zombie things when they left, probably

[dreamy steppe]

dont we only see 2 weavers

[brisk finch]

iirc they said they went back home in hk?

do not quote me on that

[tropic arrow]

Silken charm containing a song of farewell, left by the Weavers who departed Hallownest for their old home.

[brisk finch]

Do quote that

[dreamy steppe]

oh okay then i guess

[tropic arrow]

Not counting Herrah, we see only 1 living Weaver in Hallownest, yes

And well, Hornet is half weaver

[dreamy steppe]

no i meant in silksong

[tropic arrow]

Widow and First Sinner, yes

[dreamy steppe]

unless theres some secret weaver meetup you can find

[dire lynx]

Eva, kind of, not really

[dreamy steppe]

yeah so how do we know they fled to pharloom

[tropic arrow]

Seemingly not infected?

[green yoke]

Considering that The First Sinner is sealed in a manner identical to the various Weaver Skills we bind in our journey, isn't it possible those are also living weavers, though deliberately sealed to pass on their powers?

[brisk finch]

Why didn't the Citadel just kidnap that Weaver. Are they stupid

[tropic arrow]

I just quoted it to you. The Weaversong charm in Hollow Knight

[dreamy steppe]

true

[tropic arrow]

Silken charm containing a song of farewell, left by the Weavers who departed Hallownest for their old home.

[dreamy steppe]

maybe its talking about a place other than pharloom

[tropic arrow]

What could "their old home" be referring to except Pharloom, literally the place of their origin?

[lucid dirge]

i just realized doesnt it give it away that silksong is a sequel if the charm says they are departing to their old home

🥀

[brisk finch]

"man, mom is toxic. let's leave"
"shit there's zombies in the new place, let's go back home"
"...oh there's zombies here too now"

[dreamy steppe]

could they not have made their own kingdom?

[tropic arrow]

there is no indication of that

[brisk finch]

The part that gives it away is the Knight showing up in his post ending form

[neat sandal]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Rune_Harp
look like some already run then we have the last word as the message above

[lucid dirge]

i mean yeah duh but i mean without act 3

[tropic arrow]

from our knowledge, "old home" is referring to Pharloom

[tropic arrow]

"by my experience, even gods can fall"

[dire lynx]

what do you mean give it away?

[lucid dirge]

that was in act 3 too i believe

[tropic arrow]

Given context, this refers to in battle, so it can only be referring to Radiance

[brisk finch]

I'm sorry, I don't understand that sentence

[tropic arrow]

Nope. It's start of act 2

[lucid dirge]

i missed it then 🥀

oops

[lucid dirge]

like make it obvious

cuz people were arguing it was a prequel

[brisk finch]

Even then. a lot of dialogue implies it. I was fairly certain of it before act 3, but I guess there was still some ambiguity

[dreamy steppe]

well theres not much indication to the contrary either. honestly id argue the fact that hornet doesn't seem to know much about pharloom as indication of it no longer being a place of importance to weavers

[dire lynx]

the game has been advertised as a sequel for ages

[tropic arrow]

not to mention, Hornet doesn't even know what happened to Pale King, from her perspective. He may very well have died, but it's also 100% possible that he just booked it somewhere else.

[tropic arrow]

And Leth explicitly said it was a sequel in the sense of being the next entry in the franchise

not a chronological sequel

[brisk finch]

Oh wait you meant ran
right no I get it now. My brain just refused to read over a minor typo. But I think I agree with the chronology implied

[tropic arrow]

I think it was Leth anyway

[brisk finch]

I do think the "is it a story sequel or not" debate was a lot fairer than it appeared at first glance, prerelease

can't say I'm not glad they decisively settled it tho
now we just get to argue which of the two implied HK endings is real

[dire lynx]

white flower

[tropic arrow]

It definetly was a fair debate pre-release, especially given "all endings are canon and we won't invalidate any of it" thing

[brisk finch]

(it's the godhome one cause I need vindication plsssss my hands hurt so much)

[tropic arrow]

I agree it's the godhome one

[brisk finch]

Exactly
The one point against that was that they made that statement pre-godhome release 😉

[lucid dirge]

i honestly think its godhome too theres no other reason for them to tease the shade lord like that

[brisk finch]

Which meant that, even taking it as accurate at the time, there were two endings possibly exempt

[tropic arrow]

them teasing shade lord is 100% to make it ambigious which ending it is

no one would be debating which ending it was if not for the few frames of Shade Lord we get

[brisk finch]

Yeah my take is that the Knight appears all small and cute for Hornet's sake (and ours)
it's not just their dnm form

[dreamy steppe]

if the godhome ending is canon i would cry that would be so dumb

[tropic arrow]

why would it be dumb

[lucid dirge]

why........

[brisk finch]

Godhome allows for both forms

DNM doesn't

[lucid dirge]

tbh i hope we get an answer for wtf happened to thk post godhome ending

[dreamy steppe]

because its completely unrelated to the themes of the story and the main plot of the game

[brisk finch]

Also, Godhome would imply the hollow knight is just vibing in hallownest during silksong and i need that to be true

[dire lynx]

"to be continued"

[brisk finch]

that's just mister mushroom at it again

[tropic arrow]

A living, vibrant, big world is one where things happen unplanned and unprompted, which the godseekers do

I do not think it's unrelated to the themes, even if it is a derailing of the plot

and a factor none accounted for, in universe

[umbral moth]

hollow knight 3: you actually play as the hollow knight
coming in 2060

[brisk finch]

Considering mister mushroom knows about hungry knight and tomb cat at least, I'm not going to take anything he says seriously without considering meta knowledge

[tropic arrow]

Nah we all know a 3rd game will have Lace as protagonist if it ever exists

[lucid dirge]

god please no

3 lace fights is enough for me ive had enough lace content for the following century

[dapper willow]

GIVE ME MORE LACE

[dreamy steppe]

i want this so we can get canon hornet x lace yuri

[tropic arrow]

the cycle will be that the Hornet equivalent of each game will be the next protagonist for the next game, so Lace as protagonist for next game

[brisk finch]

I personally think Hollow Knight has two batches of endings for a reason
The ones that tie into The first Hollow Knight game
And the one that tie into Hollow Knight, the series

[neat sandal]

We will have Hollow shelter
rebult hollownest

[dire lynx]

hornet knew that the everbloom would repel the void, its also the only ending with shade lord, Delicate flower Godhome ending is the most logical

[tropic arrow]

too bad, so sad. Throw in your face "Absolute Lost Lace", the godhome equivalent of Silksong will

[brisk finch]

I wonder if we'll ever to go Grey Mourner's home in some way

[dreamy steppe]

i suppose but still i think the plot derailment is significant enough to say that the ending probably isnt canon

[dire lynx]

god please let us

[tropic arrow]

I wanna see the city of steel more honestly

[brisk finch]

I really like what they did with the flower in this game

[dapper willow]

noo
noo
Not the cashgrab game

[brisk finch]

But I'm greedy

[tropic arrow]

Silksong says otherwise

[dreamy steppe]

this is the thing im most interested in

[brisk finch]

I love lawsuits 😄

[dreamy steppe]

wdym

[dapper willow]

although a hk universe base building game sounds hella cool

[tropic arrow]

true ending suggests either Dream no more or Embrace the Void

[umbral moth]

exactly how does true ending suggest dream no more?

[brisk finch]

We see the Knight from Embrace the Void (or Delicate Flower, if that didn't actually harm it)

[dreamy steppe]

yeah i think dream no more is obviously the canon one

[tropic arrow]

either ending works for which ending Silksong is picking off of

[tropic arrow]

Then why would the Shade Lord appear for several frames

[brisk finch]

Dream No More's shade form is shown, yes
But that doesn't suggest it has the bigger form
Meanwhile, there's no reason to assume the EtV form can't go smaller

[umbral moth]

how does dream no more work when shade lord doesn't exist in dream no more, only in embrace the void?

[neat sandal]

even konami have to make pachinko machine in this era

[tropic arrow]

DNM doesn't allow for shade lord, ETV does

[tropic arrow]

I agree it's ETV to be clear, I just think DNM works for certain interpretations as well

[brisk finch]

Shade Lord could probably shrink, tiny shade probably can't grow into Shade Lord

[umbral moth]

oh gotcha

fair enough

[dreamy steppe]

because the shade lord already exists regardless of if the player controls it or not

[dapper willow]

The shade lord had the potential to exist
It just needed a lot of focus
I guess we are shown that potential or something

[brisk finch]

Also, I feel like we probably would have seen The Hollow Knight in the group shot

If it was DNM

[umbral moth]

little ghost not looking so little anymore...

[brisk finch]

Little Ghost helping their big sis

[lucid dirge]

im pretty sure the shade lord only managed to exist because of the godseekers attunement?

[tropic arrow]

so dope btw

[umbral moth]

also true, the hollow knight still lives in embrace the void so their shade wouldn't be present. which is actually the case in sister of the void

[lucid dirge]

its called void given focus and only appears after godseekers attune to it for a reason

[dire lynx]

little* hornet is the youngest sibling

[brisk finch]

Also, yes I'm going to say it again
The thought of THK just chilling somewhere off screen is Peak

[tropic arrow]

Shade Lord only comes to be due to very specific events in ETV. How would it exist post DNM

[dapper willow]

I don't think the shade lord would have survived for long without the godseekers

[brisk finch]

They will always be little

[umbral moth]

this is assuming what the soul snare did wasn't summon shade lord from godhome

[lucid dirge]

i just imagine hes using his nail as a fucking walking stick now 😭

[dreamy steppe]

arent there a load of other references to the lord of shade outside of the ending? i was assuming the attunement allowed the knight to tap into an already existing latent power of the void

[dire lynx]

i was saying hornet is little sister

[dapper willow]

there is nothing that says that happened

[brisk finch]

It would do that. Altho, I guess this is the one that wouldn't have been through that final fight

[brisk finch]

And I'm saying any sibling would focus on physical height over details 😄

[tropic arrow]

the opposite is true as well. There is nothing that says that didn't happen

[green yoke]

I feel like I missed some lore about Gilly, the bug who hides in leaves and such. Like with Garamond and Shakra, there's conclusions to their stories but as for Gilly I'm just like, she disappeared

[lucid dirge]

pretty sure he only appears in the godhome dlc
ur probably thinking of void given form

[dreamy steppe]

says who..?

[brisk finch]

Gilly, Pilby, Huntress

THe list is fairly long for Silksong, actually, and it's the one thing I;m kind of dissatisfied about

[tropic arrow]

Do you see any Shade Lord outside of Embrace the Void?

[dapper willow]

we do not see the shade lord until the very end so the trap could not have summoned it
otherwise we would have seen it earlier

[neat sandal]

Gilly stay at karmelita corpse after you slay her

[lucid dirge]

says the lore 🥀 the whole point is that it takes an insane amount of focus for him to be born which only happens in godhome

[dreamy steppe]

no but you also dont see anything that explicitly points to its nonexistence either

[lucid dirge]

if shadelord could have appeared outside etv he would have appeared in dream no more

[brisk finch]

Gender notes

the hollow knights have no gender. Check for hims and hes. Is the Wyrm King gendered? probably. or is it that when the wyrm took king form it gained a gender?Hornet is the Gendered Child. She can be referred to as female.
devnote from HK

[tropic arrow]

This doesn't change that some explanation as to how Shade Lord comes to be is needed, which is not present in DNM

[dreamy steppe]

no he wouldn't. hes just chilling in the void

[tropic arrow]

ETV completely solves this problem, and answers why no THK shade is present

[lucid dirge]

dawgwgwgggw

[brisk finch]

The Delicate Flower ending perfectly sets up

1. the shade lord
2. the void's interaction with the flower

[lucid dirge]

I know u dont want the godhome dlc endings to be canon but come on brah

[umbral moth]

exactly, it's just how i interpret it cuz how would the knight be outside of godhome if etv is true if the soul snare didn't summon the void from godhome? the godseeker is dead, there's no exit for it. there probably is another explanation i'm missing but it's just what makes the most sense to me rn

[dire lynx]

crazy that both THK and Myla are alive in Canon (as long as you didnt kill her)

[dapper willow]

we don't even see the shade lord for real
The whole sequence feels like some sort of vision with the shade lords image flashing and everything

[lucid dirge]

the void appears in dream no more
the void appears in godhome
shade lord only appears when the godseekers attune to the void

[brisk finch]

Ghost is appearing in its vessel form, but its power is still tangable, hence why it can save Hornet to begin with

[lucid dirge]

its really simple

the game literally calls it
"void given focus"

[brisk finch]

Also seriously folks, the vessels never use gendered pronouns, there's no he

[dapper willow]

they are probably both dead given the timeskip
or maybe not for THK

[umbral moth]

it depends on how long it's been but thk is probably still alive

[dire lynx]

we dont know how much of a timeskip exists, and THK is defeniltey still alive

[tropic arrow]

Can Vessels even die of old age

[brisk finch]

THK may actually be fine given what it is

[umbral moth]

it and the knight survived while the former's infested with the radiance for who the fuck knows how long, age doesn't seem to matter for the vessels

[dapper willow]

who knows really
until we see them

[dire lynx]

no, they are void in a shell. Void can't "die" as it isnt "alive"

[lucid dirge]

it would be really funny if the vessel horns dont stop growing so thk just appears again in dlc somehow and his horns are hilariously large

[brisk finch]

They are alive so, perhaps? Also, if something like Nosk can kill them, they can't be that inherently strong

[tropic arrow]

I highly doubt Nosk would have been able to kill THK/PV

[dapper willow]

yeah thats another point
Something could have killed them

[tropic arrow]

And Nosk dies to Ghost

[brisk finch]

Not them, the other vessels strung up in its lair

[dreamy steppe]

i understand what youre saying but there is nothing explicitly saying that what im arguing isnt true

in my mind what happens is this:

theres the void
the shade lord is the god of the void that exists when the void is given focus
some of the void has already has focus so the shade lord is already doing his own thing
godhome allows for the knight to tap into the already existing power of the shade lord

[tropic arrow]

yes, but point is that Nosk isn't some infallible force that can kill Vessels 100% of time

[brisk finch]

I didn't say that? I said something like Nosk is capable of killing vessels, so vessels aren't inherently all that strong

Some are, like Ghost

[tropic arrow]

Not all of them are inherently that strong, but not caring about old age doesn't inherently have to do with strength

[dreamy steppe]

why cant the shade lord exist in any other way? we dont see the knight become it but that doesn't mean that it doesnt exist

[brisk finch]

I was talking about vessel death/physical form death in general

Even if they can't die of old age, something else can come around

[tropic arrow]

Never disagreed with that

[brisk finch]

And it doesn't have to be particularly grande of a thing

[tropic arrow]

There doesn't seem to be anything truly immortal in HK

[brisk finch]

I was directly responding to your responses

[tropic arrow]

even higher beings can die

[umbral moth]

it's less that the shade lord doesn't exist and more that there's no reason for the knight's shade to become the shade lord for a few frames when it hasn't tapped into the shade lord's power in dream no more

[brisk finch]

You were disagreeing with something I didn't even say

[silent phoenix]

So is it a retcon that Herrah was a weaver?

[tropic arrow]

no?

[umbral moth]

it never was

[brisk finch]

Although, just like how the vessels aren't actually gone from this world just because they died (they're clearly still individuals inside of the abyss to an extent), I don't think something like the Pale King is actually "dead" either

[umbral moth]

she was always a weaver, which is why the pale king asked her to become a dreamer

[dapper willow]

I think its a vision sort of thing and the vessel doesn't become the shade lord
That being said I don't know what the ending implies

[dapper willow]

it kinda is but it also makes sense

[tropic arrow]

It's not a retcon of any kind or extent

[brisk finch]

Ye at some point you have to ask yourself what the devs would have intended
And referring to the form that only exists in 1/2 endings has a clear implication

[silent phoenix]

Didnt the first game say that she was a beast common born?

Seems kind of incongruous with the reputation of weavers as these incredibly powerful and ancient beings

[brisk finch]

Compared to Deepnest's sire

[dreamy steppe]

i guess thats fair but i didnt really interpret what we saw as a physical transformation. it looked to be non diagetic and just showing that hornet is being saved by the entirety of the void's sentient power

[dapper willow]

herrah was never explicitly referred to as a weaver as some people pointed it out

[brisk finch]

In Pharloom

[lapis geode]

I thought it means the shade lord tried to take back control from the Knight?

[silent phoenix]

What does that say about the king of deepnest then? was he a straight up higher being?

[brisk finch]

I do think the Weaver lore was not thought out
But I don't think there's an actual in-text contradiction

[brisk finch]

We don't know 😄

[silent phoenix]

She doesnt really look like any other weaver tho, is the thing

[tropic arrow]

Tbf Weavers do seem to be a cut or two above the average bug in general

[neat sandal]

paleking?

[umbral moth]

sounds about right

[umbral moth]

deepnest, not hallownest

[humble iron]

I mean deepnest never had a king though

[brisk finch]

Well yes, but in Hallownest they would've just been vibing with the weirdos in the corner

[silent phoenix]

Shakra says they're legendar ywarriors or something like that

[lapis geode]

Like the mantis and the crust?
To be honest, Khann ability to control corals is also kinda powerful for non-higher being.

[silent phoenix]

So clearly Weavers are well-known throughout the wider world

[brisk finch]

This border bounds the twisting, scratching things. Their dead sire, once of honoured caste. Their sealed mother, but the common beast."

[dapper willow]

weavers are kinda above the everyday but but not enough to be too significant

[tropic arrow]

Well yes, but the Shakra dialogue is why I say so
Weaver? Those vicious old things! To our young we tell the tales, but had thought them long dead, only corpse bound spires.
Hornet: This one still lived, though if it was a Weaver, it was broken in a savage way.
Hornet: Its own Silk was bound, pinned deep within its shell. A cruel punishment I've not before witnessed.
Even broken, my envy remains. A Weaver's fabled skills... To meet one in combat means great challenge, and great pride in victory.

[brisk finch]

this is the bit about the sire
mother is clearly herrah, the queen

[dreamy steppe]

i feel like in hallownest they are super strong too though

why else would the pale king have a child with one of them

[brisk finch]

Because that was the deal?

[tropic arrow]

that was Herrah's request, not Pale King's

[lapis geode]

So above a powerful bug but under higher being?

[brisk finch]

PK needed Herrah as a dreamer

[dreamy steppe]

ah okay mb

[brisk finch]

Which matches the whole
She called us divine, she lied

[dreamy steppe]

sorry i havent played the first game since like 2021

[silent phoenix]

I mean, why would Herrah be called a Beast instead of a Weaver?

[lapis geode]

Wait what?
We aren't divine?

[dapper willow]

well powerful bugs tend to be really cut above the chaff so probably not, but in general they seem to be better/more skilled than the average everyday beetle guy

[dire lynx]

its a title

[dreamy steppe]

shes big and fat

[silent phoenix]

Maybe Hallownest didn't know her as a weaver?

[brisk finch]

First Sinner dialogue

[lucid dirge]

someone already said it but yeah theres no reason for the knight to become the shade lord even if for just a few frames if etv wasnt canon
also it feels kind of dumb for team cherry to just put in the shadelord just for etv to not be canon at all

[neat sandal]

where that king of deepnest come from
from this: "This border bounds the twisting, scratching things.
Their dead sire, once of honoured caste.
Their sealed mother, but the common beast.
No peace with them we make."?

[elder nymph]

Was this not GMS to weavers in general?

I'm confused

[humble iron]

Why would monomon be called a teacher instead of a jellyfish creature? Beast is just a title

[brisk finch]

GMS lied that the weavers were her divine daughters

theyre just bugs she uplifted

[tropic arrow]

There are layers to this kidna thing. Here's how I see it.

There's your average bug

Above them, you have things like Weavers and Mantises. Fair bit above the average bug.

Above them still, you start to get to the really powerful beings, but also not higher beings. Things like Nyleth, Khann, and even Greyroot etc would be here.

Then you have the higher beings.

[umbral moth]

after the first sinner fight, she says that grandma called them (the weavers) divine but it was all a lie

[lapis geode]

So powerful bug such as Karmellita, Mantis Lords, Khann the Crust..
Weaver is kinda above them a bit???

[silent phoenix]

This is First Sinner talking about GMS after you beat her

[silent phoenix]

im pretty sure Nyleth is a higher being tho

[elder nymph]

I gotta hunt yet again today!

[tropic arrow]

Nothing indicates she is

[lapis geode]

Never thought you put Khann that high
I LOVE HIM THOUGH.

Same with karmellita albeit she just very proficient in combat like queen Vespar

[brisk finch]

Like, real talk: I do not think TC knew this when writing HK
Especially with the Spider Mage concept etc
But HK is vague enough about a lot of the details that you can't point to one thing and go
This is now Wrong Information/a retcon

[elder nymph]

For first weaver. One save all endings will be mine

[silent phoenix]

i mean she created an entire forest, and they say that she isnt exactly a bug. Seems higher being-esque to me

[tropic arrow]

the placements can change, it's haphazard and needs more thought

[naive crag]

she was given the title by hallownest probably

[dreamy steppe]

i didnt really interpret what we saw as a physical transformation. it looked to be non diagetic and just showing that hornet is being saved by the entirety of the void's sentient power

i feel like its equally dumb for the canonical ending to be that the knight just ignored the main plot and fucked around with some guy instead

[naive crag]

to them anything from deepnest is beastly

[brisk finch]

I think anyone capable of spawning a heart must have had some real power behind them

[dapper willow]

no nyleth is not a higher being
I don't think it would make sense

[lapis geode]

Wait, queen Vespa can be considered powerful bug right?
The Hive Queen from hollow knight

[tropic arrow]

Making Shellwood doesn't inherently make her a higher being. If she was one, I am pretty sure they would make a bigger deal of it or be a bit more explicit about it.

[brisk finch]

I personally read it as showing the feeling of that power
Yes it looks like tiny ghost, but the power is the shade lord's

[silent phoenix]

She's a forgotten higher being then? Like the radiance

[dreamy steppe]

i think the shade lord's presence is supposed to be purposefully vague as to what ending is canon

[lapis geode]

Maybe just a bug that has some plant bender power.

[elder nymph]

Also, how does this thing use soul magic?

[humble iron]

Where is it said that she created shellwood though

[lucid dirge]

ok well to be fair you need the void heart to get etv so you cant really ignore the main plot

[brisk finch]

Stole it from a snail shaman

[lapis geode]

It ate one of snail shaman

[umbral moth]

the killed snail shaman, groal absorbed that power

[humble iron]

It says that she allows safe passage

[elder nymph]

I missed that lore bit. Thanks ya'll

[dreamy steppe]

oh yeah i suppose youre right

[tropic arrow]

and yeah this. The Snail Shamans suggest that the spell to pull the Everbloom from Hornet's memory would take power rivaling that of the monarch, so any combination of 3 from the 4 hearts available have to be near that of GMS in total.

[neat sandal]

she create no sentient being in shellwood

[dapper willow]

ate a lot of soul
A shaman too

[neat sandal]

all lowly beast

[dreamy steppe]

i think thats an equally valid interpretation. again i think it is purposefully left vague so the player can decide what ending fits the best

[silent phoenix]

is creating sentient bugs/beings a requirement for higher being status?

[elder nymph]

So it's the putrid version of Kirby. Got it lol

[silent phoenix]

I'm pretty sure Radiance does the opposite, and u cant say she isnt a higher being

[umbral moth]

snail shaman: "where the hell did all my soul go?!"
the suspiciously soul shaped groal:

[lapis geode]

Then what of Karmellita?
The Skarr tribie seems intelligent and even profficient in combat

[brisk finch]

Oh mind you, my take is that the knight is deliberately showing Hornet a smaller/more known form

[tropic arrow]

Radiance made the moths

[lapis geode]

and she birth them

[brisk finch]

So she doesn't fight its attempt to save her

[dapper willow]

monomon made some uumas too

[dreamy steppe]

personally i think dnm is the most compelling and there are alternative explanations of the shade lord's presence

[lucid dirge]

etv is really more like an alternate way to get to the radiance without having to slime out thk and also ends up being a way to "give birth" to the shade lord
i dont think the shadelord in etv existed beforehand simply because it required so much focus from the godseekers and literally beating what they saw as the peak of hallownest for it to manifest

[tropic arrow]

Again, X people coming from Y being, does not make Y being inherently Higher Being

[humble iron]

Intelligence is granted by masks not karmellita

[neat sandal]

no proof Karmellita created ant tribe

[brisk finch]

but consider this: the hollow knight lives in etv and that's funny to me

[lucid dirge]

HE DOESNT KNOW

[silent phoenix]

Does Grimm create life? 👀

[tropic arrow]

There is no reason in particular to believe Nyleth, Karmelita, Khann and Green Prince are higher beings. They are "just" exceptionally powerful

[lapis geode]

I see... but she seems like the ant queen?

[lapis geode]

I'll accept this theory

[umbral moth]

speaking of groal actually
it makes sense that it'd have absorbed the soul too since it looks just as bloated as the bugs from the soul sanctum

[dreamy steppe]

ok true

[elder nymph]

Mask dude in Mt. Fay gets real eloquent when you smack it's mask off

[lucid dirge]

they are mid beings 🥀

[dire lynx]

grimm isnt a higher being

[neat sandal]

she ant queen just make her same rank as brood mother

[dreamy steppe]

idk either works

[tropic arrow]

Karmelita's journal entry mentions that she united the Skarr, suggesting that there were multiple ant hives and multiple queens, OR the Skarr don't breed like ants and reproduce more normally

[silent phoenix]

is the nightmare heart one, then?

[umbral moth]

yes

[dreamy steppe]

green prince is explicitly not a higher being

[dire lynx]

it made grimm

[dapper willow]

He absorbed a lot of souls, but everyone seems to only focus on the shaman

[humble iron]

This

[umbral moth]

probably

[brisk finch]

Like, half of my arguing for etv/delicate flower is a genuine believe that it makes more sense with the shade lord visual
a quarter is my hands wanting to be vindicated for doing p5
and the other quarter is the hollow knight's fate being really funny and interesting to me

[umbral moth]

he's just a gay bug that ruled a kingdom

[tropic arrow]

alongside his partner

[neat sandal]

Radiance make whole moth race

[elder nymph]

Who was the second?

[lapis geode]

DAMN. Thanks for that reminder

[umbral moth]

doomed yaoi real in funny bug game

[lucid dirge]

why do we still believe that masks are the thing granting intelligence in hk when the mask maker literally says "The original mind is destroyed, though those of striking will may still retain a sliver of that concealed self. "

[brisk finch]

Karmelita was downgraded from queen to singer, sad
(thats a joke)

[tropic arrow]

Verdania also seems to be ruled by 1 family for it's entire existence, so uh...

[dapper willow]

okay
Could the mantis lords beat up the clover dancers?

[elder nymph]

Green Prince Shadow Clone Jutsu and masterbste? Who is the king and queen that spawned the other prince

[lucid dirge]

even the mask maker in silksong starts to seem more intelligent once its removed

[brisk finch]

Before release, I was mildly worried (but not really) that the grey mourner was a one off thing
no, we still get the Sad
yay 😄

[umbral moth]

yaaaaaay

[dire lynx]

probably lol

[humble iron]

Because masks overwrite the previous mind that is the whole point

[lapis geode]

So basically the mask not just concealed but literally kill the original bestiality in them?

[tropic arrow]

who knows 🤷

[brisk finch]

I choose to read it as, marrying his love made his love a prince
And so retroactively he;'s always referred to as a prince

[dreamy steppe]

yeah i do think that the most logical answer to the shade lord being there is that etv is canon. i just feel like dnm is a more compelling plot and i struggle to see why the developers would purposefully make the canon ending of their game the ending where the knight doesnt even see the boss that the game is named after

[brisk finch]

I wouldn't say kill if removing it means the mask maker at least regains "lucidity"

[brisk finch]

There's one answer: they don't consider one canon more important than the other, but they thought etv was more interesting for silksong

[dapper willow]

it doesn't kill it... I don't think it does

[dire lynx]

So we can get a hollow knight game where we play as the hollow knight 🔥 🔥
/lh

[tropic arrow]

But I mean, look at it this way, seeing as any combination of 3 from the 4 hearts has to be rivaling GMS in power, you could argue that Green Prince (and thus his partner), though not a higher being, are not that insignificant in power either, when compared to GMS.

Though it is possible that when the shamans say they need enourmous power rivaling that of the monarch, they may be referring to her current state, which is not her full might

[elder nymph]

Didn't TC flat out say no ending is the canonical one? They leave it up to us

[brisk finch]

Another option is that Godmaster was their big last hurray before silksong development properly started, so it's possible that really is just their final big idea for that world. It's literally how they left it

[dreamy steppe]

i understand that, but i think its equally likely that they thought it would be cool for the shade lord to exist regardless of the ending

[dire lynx]

this was before godhome dlc

[brisk finch]

Way before Godmaster came out, yes. They never repeated it as far as I know

[umbral moth]

hollow knight 3 for 2060, you play as the hollow knight

[elder nymph]

THOSE WEAK BITCHES

They caved just like Zelda

[tropic arrow]

Nah, Hollow Knight Threadspun, Lace protag

[umbral moth]

dang...

[lucid dirge]

yea but didnt they say that before godhome came out

[umbral moth]

yuh

[dapper willow]

they only needed that power for a moment, while the monarch has that power consatntly
Thats a significant difference

[dreamy steppe]

yeah im arguing that this still holds and that they are still intentionally keeping it up to interpretation. i dont think the shade lord's presence is supposed to be a confirmation of etv being canon

[trim egret]

Hey guys, was wandering around and found a secret room above chef lugoli chamber. There is nothing inside to pick up, you can play the needolin and get some lore. Does anyone know anything about this?

[brisk finch]

Yeah I just think from a narrative perspective that's, uh, bad?
The visual language would be lying to the viewer, unless they show more signs of a Dragon Break/All Endings are simulatenously canon situation

[umbral moth]

they've long ignored the whole all endings all canon thing

[tropic arrow]

that... is a fair point

[dire lynx]

its probably because they had to make a sequel, silksong was originally a HK dlc

[elder nymph]

Thats a good point

[brisk finch]

Is it caving if you changed your mind in silence before your final dlc even came out