sk-lore

[brisk finch]

It's not as... organized as both Grimm fights, but it's there

[edgy relic]

just beat the final final boss
does this mean that not every HK ending is actually canon like team cherry said

[rocky smelt]

honestly none of the fights in silksong rlly felt like grimm to me except maybe karmelita, since u can only hit her while shes attacking it has a similar dance feeling to grimm

[ember river]

All endings can be canon, just think of it this way

If you consider DNM or EtV canon, then silksong happens
Otherwise it doesn't

[brisk finch]

tbf they said that before Godhome came out

[ember river]

Same as if you do the Hollow Knight ending the Knight never gets the Void Heart

[brisk finch]

That's the funny thing about the quote, technically there was never confirmation it applied to Godhome

[sage flame]

I hope dlc runs have fights that are harder and are on par with grimm

[edgy relic]

i suppose that makes sense

[ember river]

Godhome isn't canon

[edgy relic]

yes?

[ember river]

It's a joke about the "not all endings are canon" not applying to godhome

[brisk finch]

Then explain this! [200 hours of my life]

[ember river]

I mean "all endings are canon"

God my brain is dead right now

See you tomorrow

[rocky smelt]

they said stuff they say outside of the game isnt 100% fact

[brisk finch]

Mood, I've been staring at maps and text since 6 am
it's now... almost 11pm
good night lol

[zinc dagger]

Crab?

[ember river]

somewhat

[edgy relic]

im gonna be replaying the game to go over lore again but at the moment im still confused by some stuff... im still not sure why they were kidnapping weavers from around the world. lace implies that GMS like, wanted a kid. Seamstress and Hornet conversation says its the ability to weave soul and silk

and even then like, why do they want that ability. simply because its useful? cant be that easy

im also still wondering exactly wtf is up with the memorium. that place gives me the creeps for whatever reason. like some kind of demented zoo

[keen axle]

Do you guys think grimm be added in a dlc 🤔

[edgy relic]

naw

[lucid pasture]

its just a preservation zoo yes idk what more to say

[edgy relic]

one of the lore tablets made it seem like someone was in charge of remembering all the biomes or they literally got forgotten and lost to pharloom

like verdania is

[lethal burrow]

OK, so I just finished the game and I'm gonna lay out what I've gathered from the general story and I want people to correct me where I'm wrong and point out things I don't know.

So basically how it seems to me is that some point in the past grandmother silk elevated those normal beast bugs into the Weaver's, somewhere along the way pharloom began, then the Weaver's put grandmother silk to sleep? And then they ran away?
And now it seems like the residence of pharloom are searching out for the descendants of Weaver for ??? reasons? (maybe to keep grandmother in the cocoon, but she should be the one controlling all the silk and therefore the people, so I don't know)

What am I missing here?

[edgy relic]

also what im wondering on

[lean temple]

GMS herself is the one ordering the capture of the Weavers

The Weavers wanted to put GMS to sleep so they could rule as the highest power, making themselves out to be divine

And yeah she did elevate them from Pharlids

[lethal burrow]

but the first sinner dialogue says that grandmother silk is the one that called them divine? Unless I'm remembering wrong.

[lethal burrow]

Is she asleep or isn't she?

Also, why is she ordering the capture of the Weavers?

[lean temple]

True, they ruled as the "divine" daughters of GMS. First Sinner exposed the lie of GMS, she said the Weavers aren't actually divine but instead uplifted from Pharlids

[lean temple]

She's waking up

[lethal burrow]

Did she expose that it doesn't seem very exposed

[tame comet]

So snails in hollow knight? Do they keep the void? Is that their job?

[lean temple]

First Sinner seems to be the only one to remember how they were created. So she called out the Weavers for saying they were divine, which made them lock her up

[lethal burrow]

She says grandmother, silk lied, but she says it in a way as if it was previously believed.

I don't know that the Weavers are knowledgable about their original conception

Or at least not at the start

[lean temple]

GMS lied to the Weavers by telling them that they are her divine daughters. FS knew this wasn't the case and that GMS uplifted them from Pharlids

However the Weavers took the lie and ran with it so they could be the ruling class in Pharloom. They were regarded as holy.

FS called them out so they imprisoned her.

[lethal burrow]

What's the deal with the nameless village by the way it feels important as hell but I don't know what it means

[neat sandal]

depend on point of view
GMS may actually think weavers are her divine
but weavers just lash out think they are not

[lean temple]

With how the Weavers put her to sleep and then them playing gods, this doesn't seem to be the case at all.

[neat sandal]

there is the chance first sinner was lock up by other weavers cause she expose the truth to them

[lean temple]

That's exactly what I'm saying

[edgy relic]

thats what they said

so it is GMS whos ordering the capture of weavers? and why exactly?

[lean temple]

It seems she's in need of more Silk, and/or she wants to recapture all the Weavers who escaped

[lethal burrow]

well hornet is the same deal as retrieving the weaver descendants, and we know that's explicitly for her silk

[edgy relic]

needs more silk for what though

shes got all of pharloom ensared, most of it at least

[lethal burrow]

maybe the power of the grandmother is whining? Or maybe lace can't exist on her own forever and needs some sort of supply?

[lean temple]

Lace needs sustenance

What I don't understand is why GMS couldn't supply it herself and why she needs more Weavers

[edgy relic]

well she seems to die in the true ending to restore Lace

[lethal burrow]

When on the timeline does she start to wake up?

[neat sandal]

for power.
you know. GMS is weak as fuck

[lean temple]

I believe before the Weavers begin fleeing Pharloom

[lethal burrow]

Why does she only break out when we get to the top?

[lean temple]

She also has to have created Lace and Phantom at some point

[lean temple]

I think that was the final trigger for her to fully wake up

[lethal burrow]

did she create Phantom

How do we know that?

[edgy relic]

this makes sense so all the power ups of the game referencing "daughter of a distant land" dont specifically reference Hornet but any Weaver brought back to pharloom

[lean temple]

First Sinner seems to specifically mention Hornet "Half spawn of a distant land"

[edgy relic]

their journal entry and needolin dialogue iirc

[edgy relic]

ill need to go back to first sinner to refresh myself

[neat sandal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idFr1lK0Vp4

[lean temple]

Phantom and Lace are both beings strung from Silk. The Needolin on the glass thingy in the organ shows Lace and Phantom, and Phantom does have some reference to her being silkborn in her Needolin dialogue

[lean temple]

What I think is that the Weavers who escaped Hallownest back to Pharloom spread word about Hornet

[edgy relic]

maybe

do the power ups get completely used up when Hornet uses them cause thats most likely if so

i dont remember if like, they break or anything

[lean temple]

I don't get what you mean

[edgy relic]

like when you claim a power up like dash and whatnot do the weaver statues in any way become destroyed

[lean temple]

Oh yeah

They do

[edgy relic]

then yeah it probably is specifically Hornet at that point

for one it looks like all the weavers we know of all were successfully brought to GMS since their cages are in the cradle

and from what we know Hornet is also the most pure Weaver brought so far correct me if im wrong

[lean temple]

Seemingly, because it does say how many casualties were killed trying to capture them

[lean temple]

Yeah she's the only half, the others are all 4ths and 8ths and i think there's a 12th part Weaver too.

[spark valve]

believe it's just quarter and eighth, 12th doesn't even make sense

[edgy relic]

why couldnt it

[lethal burrow]

so the Weaver's are for sure the children of grandmother silk?

[lethal burrow]

idk is harrah pure Weaver?

[lean temple]

She has to be

If Hornet is half

[lethal burrow]

Her body isn't black and thin like the other pure weavers though

[edgy relic]

it absolutely is

[glossy badger]

Can't really argue with maths

[lean temple]

I may be misremembering

[lean temple]

Tbh it may have been a retcon

[rocky smelt]

yeah just checked only eighth and fourth

[glossy badger]

Yeah I don't know why her body is like that

[lethal burrow]

well, is she half or is she only stated to behalf by characters within the world that could potentially be wrong?

Just for the sake of discussion, I'm wondering if it stated by in game omniscient text or simply character writing

Perhaps the godly aspects of hornet are too strong to see any sliver of mortal bug

[lean temple]

GMS calls her half and she'd know more than anyone else

[rocky smelt]

"Full Chamber to the kingdom of the White Wyrm. Claim the Weaver, in half part. Last of their line. Sensed strong with Silk"

[glossy badger]

Its a relic

[lethal burrow]

yeah, but that's writing within the world.

[lean temple]

Orders from GMS

[edgy relic]

writing of an order by gms?

[lethal burrow]

i'm just asking if we have a narrator perspective statement saying she's half

humour me

[edgy relic]

wym by narrator

[lean temple]

First Sinner also, and the Weavers of Hallownest

[steady palm]

can't wait for a youtuber to drop a big ass lore video ❤️

[rocky smelt]

theres no narrator other than the basic hunters journal entry is there?

[lethal burrow]

like an omniscient perspective.
in Game writing or something like that, objective factual statements made from an out of world perspective that are not subject to the opinions or incorrectness that is potential in the writings or dialogue of characters

[lean temple]

The Hallownest Weavers wanted her to prove that she's more Weaver than Wyrm, which would be impossible if she was like 8th Weaver

[rocky smelt]

ik, im saying there is no omniscient perspective except possibly the basic hunters journal, everything is in character dialogue or writings afaik

[austere coral]

…if we need that no lore at all from either game could ever be confirmed, wtf are you on about

[glossy badger]

As much as I like them I hate when people refer to lore videos as straight facts

[austere coral]

everything is from a subjective source in game

[lethal burrow]

wtf are you talking about? I'm just asking if something exists not discounting literally everything in the game.

cool it with the extrapolations buddy

[steady palm]

thats why i watch many to be as confused as possible ❤️

[austere coral]

and nothing like that exists

[glossy badger]

This is genius

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah lore videos are far from facts, you should be sourcing your information from my takes instead.

[edgy relic]

no from me

[lethal burrow]

well, then you could say that without being rude

[steady palm]

I really like it when they drop the source because sometimes they spit shit when i wonder where did they get that

[short zenith]

LOREEEEEE
||So after beating Lace 2... is Lace void?||

[rocky smelt]

no

[sinful nimbus]

no

[glossy badger]

Me with the silksong all text google doc

[sinful nimbus]

made of silk

[short zenith]

||Is she not supposed to have sentience?||

[steady palm]

is this game's lore as big as HK's? since i think HK's lore is bigger

[sinful nimbus]

She is

[short zenith]

I would assume same depth

[steady palm]

I need the lore experts to tell me how extense this game's lore is

[sinful nimbus]

In terms of the core narrative its a similar level of depth

[short zenith]

||What's the last interaction before she passes out on the flower beat then?||

[austere coral]

sorryyyyy

[edgy relic]

lace 2 no. ||lace 3 is technically void and silk as one||

[lethal burrow]

do you guys think Weavers are just orb Weavers?

[short zenith]

I just... I dont have time to dissect all the lore

[austere coral]

seems so be similar depth, granted the game’s been out so short

[short zenith]

So I kiind of need some of it explained to me >-<

[edgy relic]

community will figure it out in time

[glossy badger]

This game does have more dialogue

[static trellis]

I feel like once DLC is released, it’ll go beyond HK. I feel like the lore is about similar in depth now but I’m counting HK’s DLCs with that

[austere coral]

wait orb weavers? what that

[sinful nimbus]

Lace: Congratulations, spider. Finally, I felt your sting, and you've bared the truth of my pathetic empty shell.

Hornet: You always had the scent, child. You are no bug. Yours is a life born entirely from thread.

Lace: Life? You're too generous! This weak, wasting existence. This was not life, just a husk shaped to act as a child.

Hornet: Yours was life, pale one. Do not confuse your unique creation with its absence. I have seen others make the same
Lace was made of silk and she considers herself to not actually be living, but Hornet disagrees

[steady palm]

damn i like that cuz i thought HK was cooler in lore since it had so much, and superficially I didnt see much depth in silksong's lore

[rocky smelt]

a kind of spider irl

[lean temple]

Silksong built on many concepts from HK, but the lore implications it had where pretty huge. The new info on the Steel bugs alone is pretty big

[rocky smelt]

they make big ass webs

[sinful nimbus]

I think I would say HK's core narrative is much more coherent yeah

[rocky smelt]

theres one outside my window rn

[sinful nimbus]

SS seems to have decent worldbuilding though

and characters

[lethal burrow]

A type of spider

[austere coral]

oooooh, I can see some similarities yea, and yk the name definitely links them. And most weavers seem to have beeeeeeeeeg orb heads

[rocky smelt]

Silksong expands the world a lot

[short zenith]

Aaah, I see

SO uhhhhh other stuff

[austere coral]

omg

cool:3

[short zenith]

Is ||mommy Silk taking weavers to extract their silk?||

[steady palm]

I love the vibe of the nameless town, genuinely, the world feels so lonely up there

[rocky smelt]

it was clear there were more places than just hallownest in the first game but silksong really cements that

[neat sandal]

kinda. feel like HK much better writing than silksong

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[glossy badger]

The amount of times I took contact damage from first sinners big ass head

[steady palm]

I wish i knew more about the world there, outside of kingdoms

[steady palm]

I thought this, but I'm not sure since i dont know much about silksongs lore yet

[austere coral]

yea, don’t we get names of other places too in the Cradle? Steel something and all that

[short zenith]

thats it

[glossy badger]

I liked the writing of silksong

[short zenith]

me too

[glossy badger]

And the themes

[short zenith]

Feels more cohesive/easier to understand at first glance than HK

[static trellis]

I honestly prefer the SS writing over HK, but that’s my opinion

[short zenith]

HK writing is not bad at all

[neat sandal]

me too. but HK is much more clear and convinced on first impress

[short zenith]

It's just a lot more "hidden"(?)

[rocky smelt]

city of steel, sandsea waste, blackbarrens

[austere coral]

lol, yea me too;-; Loved the boss though, favourite probably thus far

[rocky smelt]

and more places like shakras nest-plains prolly more i forgot

[static trellis]

Y’all see the mod for First Sinner? Lost Sinner?

[glossy badger]

I felt the same way

[austere coral]

I diddddd, seems extremely cool

[glossy badger]

Yeah one of my favourites I can't choose between them though

[upper copper]

I JUST beat act 2. Is the ||twisted bud|| ending a bad ending? It doesn’t look like it affects the entirety of pharloom

[lethal burrow]

she disagrees while giving a judging look at the pale kings corpse from across space and Time

[rocky smelt]

also the Homespear, which is likely the same place as the city of steel and probably the true name for it

[austere coral]

oh and does the boss heal when it does the bind?

first sinner that is

[short zenith]

Also enjoyed the religious/pilgrimage themes of Skong being more on display than HK, where dreams felt somewhat of a background thing

[teal drift]

Twisted bud is a good ending

[austere coral]

so cool if so

[lethal burrow]

I don't know anything about the steel soul of silk song. Could you fill me in?

[short zenith]

Stuff like your currency literally ebing rosaries

[rocky smelt]

me when i lie

[teal drift]

A god is usurped bu a cute little grayroot

Its the most revolutionary and positive thing to happen in an Hk game from a certain frame of reference.

[glossy badger]

Hornet is turned into a tree

[static trellis]

Yea. Any time she binds, she heals. And she’s already the highest health boss in the game

[teal drift]

Hornet is a demigod nepo baby maybe shes better off as a trre

[glossy badger]

Yes

[rocky smelt]

whats postive about a parasite born from two higher beings

[static trellis]

Hornet being a nepo baby is a crazy statement

[glossy badger]

She had to work hard for her rosary beads

[lean temple]

There's a new Steel npc like Jinn, and another one like Jiji, and there's more lore on the Masters. The Cradle also has the City of Steel as one of the mentioned locations

[teal drift]

The parasite is never dermed amoral. It ascending and replacing a threst to nature is a good thing, esp compared to ending 1 where hornet becomes gms or ending 2 where hornet gets hundreds killed.

[lean temple]

Huge implications for the Steek bugs and we haven't even seen the Steek assassins yet

[slow nebula]

why doesnt ||plasmafied zylotol have needolin dialouge?||

[craggy smelt]

i think he does

[teal drift]

True ending >= gray bud > weaver queen

[rocky smelt]

its an unwanted curse forced upon hornet, nothing abt that is good. The weaver queen ending isnt good either ofc

[short zenith]

What are the flowers in|| Lace 2?||

[neat sandal]

SS theme, world building kinda more interesting than HK
but the message, the execution kind way off. I not really get what silksong try to say

[craggy smelt]

...flowers

[short zenith]

THERES NO LORE SIGNIFICANCE?

(smashes computer)

[lethal burrow]

does first sinner have needlin dialogue?

[austere coral]

wondered that too, maybe the lifeblood has taken over too much to the point it would show the lifeblood’s thoughts, like with the infection and radiance in Hollow Knight? And the lifeseeds didn’t have dreamnail dialogue there did they

[lethal burrow]

I just realized everyone thought pharloom was going to be the place The delicate flower was from, but nope, we still have no idea where that is lmao

[teal drift]

Delicate flower is a pale little guy who hates void

[rocky smelt]

yeah think so

[elder nymph]

How is Hornet's needle able to do things the dream nail can? Mainly the thought stuffs

[lean temple]

White roses

[elder nymph]

I guess needle + silk + claw would be precise

[austere coral]

on that note, recently did red memory, doesn’t the White Lady say in HK something along the lines of not wanting to hold such a flower/it being foolish to do, and yet she does have one in SS?

[lean temple]

There was no real reason to believe so imo

[lean temple]

She's telling that to TK. It can destroy TK because they're Void so it's not smart of TK to hold it

[silk dirge]

how tf does the knight survive with it then

[lean temple]

I assume the shell is able to suppress their Void properties as to not trigger the flower

[austere coral]

oooooohh

makes sense

[silk dirge]

this is what she says

[austere coral]

thankies

[lethal burrow]

"Ah, what precious gift it offers, though alas I shan't accept.
Not of me that flower, nor of this kingdom. Far it travelled to reach this place, brought by one beloved, fair knight of lands serene.
There is rare power hidden in those frail petals.
To hold it so close, one must surely be unaware of its nature..."

she says such because the knight is a creature of void and the flower is surely dangerous. for not accepting as a gift though it seems like it's just because she knows where it's from and knows it's supposed to go to the grave so she won't accept it

That's just my read though

idk maybe she doesn't accept it because it's a flower and she's a plant and she doesn't want it because it's not her own stuff

[elder nymph]

@lean temple Question. Herald's Wish. What am I missing here?

[lean temple]

Find the herald in all 7 locations

[craggy smelt]

i agree about the Knight being void bit for sure
her not accepting because she feels like it's supposed to go somewhere else is interesting

[elder nymph]

The Herald is Mr Mushroom? Cause if so I swear I did all 7

[lethal burrow]

True, but that reads to me more as lace creating her own secret silk being on her own in exhaust.

[rocky smelt]

u also have to beat the game

[lean temple]

Yes

[silk dirge]

maybe the flower is high risk high reward

[lean temple]

He is the Master Herald, he would signal an age's end

[silk dirge]

it keeps the void away from them but it also has some unheard of power against higher beings

[lean temple]

Doesn't seem to be the case with how coveted it is

[silk dirge]

that could make sense for why white lady has a delicate flower in red memory but doesnt when the knight gives it to her

[craggy smelt]

she apparently had one in the past and showed it to Hornet

[silk dirge]

she thought it would protect her but it had some power that was opposed to her

[austere coral]

that seems to make sense, and yea the not accepting it part is the part that made me think, seems logical she’s not accepting it cuz it isn’t ”of her” and not where it’s supposed to be

[lean temple]

I mean the kingdom kinda fell to shit and she doesn't really need one. I assume Ze'mer was in charge of the flower stock

[lethal burrow]

who knows the white lady in the red memory seems to be aware she is like... in a dreamworld? The other parts seem like straight memories, but the part with her seems like she's definitely aware either because she knew this moment would eventually be in the red memory or because she's just not actually there and this is just a memory version of her or like what's going on with that?

[silk dirge]

white lady can go in dreams

[craggy smelt]

yeah, at one point it seems like she switches from a memory to actually speaking to Hornet in the present
God stuff I guess

[silk dirge]

when you dreamnail her in hk she knows your in her mind

[lean temple]

White Lady is a Goddess, maybe she could know what's going on

[silk dirge]

so probably stuff related to that

[lean temple]

She can detect the Dream nail

[silk dirge]

yeah

[lethal burrow]

well, the red memory is all about hornet looking for the specific memory of the flower right? so it could be that the memory she was looking for was the one with the white lady or it could be that the white lady (or the memory version of her or whatever) found the memory herself and gave it there.

I don't know how likely it is, but it seems to me There's the real possibility that white lady memory never had the flower at all and memory white lady just found it and gave it in the red memory because she knew what was going on.

[silk dirge]

nah hornet says she remembered seeing it

[austere coral]

I read it as her ”shifting” from memory to new stuff the moment hornet changed clothes back to red cloak and said she understood her, and seeing as she seemed to knowingly evade the godseekers I wouldn’t be surprised she could somehow be aware in the dream

[craggy smelt]

the real wild thing would be if the pale flower Hornet saw in the past disappeared because it was sent through time by White Lady to present Hornet through the Red Memory
time travel, yeah!

we all love that shit

[lethal burrow]

ashen mist heart

[silk dirge]

oh fuck nah i had enough of that in interstellar

[lethal burrow]

"Collect the giant's kinship"

[craggy smelt]

hell yeah interstellar
"ooh, it was me all along! that's why the movie was stupid! cuz of me!!"

[lethal burrow]

idk silksong straight up does the DS2 memory time travel final act

It's very funny to me

[lean temple]

It's interesting how WL calls the Everbloom the first light. Could it be even older than the pale beings?

[austere coral]

maybe that memory becomes ”shared” somehow? So she’s suddenly as aware as hornet is in that moment because of her experience with dreams? And uses it to change it into giving her the flower as opposed to whatever actually happened

[lean temple]

And don't the Snail Shamans also know of the Everbloom?

[muted lantern]

What is second sentinels pronouns

[lethal burrow]

They've heard tales

[narrow girder]

i really wanna know the needolin dialogue for all the bosses but its so hard to pull offf especially with act 3's bosses :(

[lethal burrow]

they/them is what hornet uses for second sentinel and second sentinel doesn't seem to be of a mind to correct her if she's wrong.

[narrow girder]

tempted to see if there's a way to access the files so i can see what the needolin dialogues aree

[lethal burrow]

I don't know why they made it so much harder to use than the dream nail, especially in combat.

it's way slower and takes way more time to go into effect and it eats your soul

[narrow girder]

its honestly so cool to see several characters who use they/them in this game

[narrow girder]

yeah </33
like i rlly wanted to try do it on lost lace but its basically impossible even with the tool that enhances the needolin

that and the monarchs that you have to kill

[lethal burrow]

as someone who actually used the dream nail in Hollow Knight to get soul, I am disappoint in the new version of the dream nail

[narrow girder]

yeahh a lot more clunky to use </3

[muted lantern]

Besides sentinel and phantom who else does?

[spiral vine]

Does anyone know what happens to Second Sentinel after the Final Audience wish is granted?

[rocky smelt]

it should play the dialogue way sooner after you start using it

[narrow girder]

thee chef in sinners road i believee

[lethal burrow]

they continue to protect the people of songclave

[muted lantern]

I've seen them continue their fight against the haunted in the citadel

[lean temple]

Last Judge

[spiral vine]

Good to know. Thanks!

[narrow girder]

truee

[sage heart]

Does the huntress get eaten or something later by her children? shes no longer in my game after i completed her wish. All the eggs in the room are broken too

[narrow girder]

cos i saw on the wiki that there is needolin dialogue for the widow and sister splinter and even docks lace
and im just really curious as to how people even got that

[lethal burrow]

Who knows maybe she found a house in a less shitty area

[muted lantern]

If you didn't complete her wish she would be dead in that room, so it's safe to say she's probably moved somewhere safe with her babies, maybe taken them to safer hunting grounds

[sage heart]

oic

[narrow girder]

i wouldnt be surprised if she got eaten but it would really suck :(

[narrow girder]

oh wait truee

[muted lantern]

I believe you find her body if you don't do her wish

[narrow girder]

nooo

[sage heart]

yea but i did her wish and now i cant find her

[muted lantern]

If there's no body she's probably good and being a mom

[sage heart]

[narrow girder]

praying that we might see her later down the road but we probably dont

[muted lantern]

She leaves to go somewhere else but I don't think you meet her again

Are huntress and Styx the same species?

If so is Styx the father?

Would be funny, huntress and her absentee malewife

[narrow girder]

i assumed so but im actually not sure,,
styx never once mentions the huntress so either he's a really terrible father or they're just not related at all

[muted lantern]

Or their species just doesn't have the father remain, a lotta species do that, maybe he narrowly escaped being food for his mate after

[narrow girder]

ooo that's interesting to think about

[sonic dawn]

what are these?

chests? boxes?

[narrow girder]

also really interested about the pinstress and if we've possibly seen more of her sisters in the game?
like i believe you find a corpse in bilewater that talks about their sisters when you needolin it and has a very similar hood to them
as well as the seamstress who also looks very similar but not a lot of evidence for that one :0

[narrow girder]

yee i assume storage containers of some sort,,,

like weird barrels

[sonic dawn]

i mean we can see a flea inside one of them

when we set it free

weird

[lethal burrow]

lmao lost lace needolin dialogue isn't even on the wiki. Nobody's gotten it yet.

[narrow girder]

honestly fair 😭

but how did anyone needolin the widow

when you literally need to beat her to unlock it

maybe a glitch u can exploit or smth

[silk dirge]

im surprised no ones tried to datamine it

[uncut holly]

Dude what the heeeeellllll is going on with the memorium, I never really noticed when going through here this place is messed up

They got like animal wall mounts but it includes people aswell

Like they got Stilkin on a animal wall trophy mount

[narrow girder]

YEAHH
the citadel's just really messed up in general

[uncut holly]

They got ants, Pilgrims, Greymoor People, various beasts

[narrow girder]

some twisted form of a zoo/conservatory

because the higher class residents of the citadel probably dont care at all about the wellbeing of anyone below them

[uncut holly]

Yeah it seems like they have a sense of superiority most of all of these are the other tribes that are beneath them besides the pilgrims

Even then the Pilgrims could be natives to

They have Greymoor people who are also below them

Gotta think whos corpse is that

[narrow girder]

yeaa,,

like how they tried to silence karak

i think thats what its called at least

[tropic arrow]

Piecing together a timeline, as much as is possible when we do not get exact times and dates, proves to be challenging indeed.

[silk dirge]

i mean we never were able to do it for hk

[narrow girder]

i can imagine it to be yeahhh
but its gonna be so much fun to figure out

[tropic arrow]

Like I said "as much as possible"

[silk dirge]

isnt there a post where team cherry says the events of hk take place over one long night

a lot of games actually take place in a much shorter amount of time than you expect

[tropic arrow]

It is what most of the post I am working on, that is definetly way too long, is about. The most we can manage for a timeline is "this event happened after that event, which happened after X" and so on so forth

[silk dirge]

if you look at the sun in the background of celeste you can work out celeste takes place over 1-2 days

[tropic arrow]

And Pharloom's history proves to be muddy

[glossy badger]

It's all in the games files

[narrow girder]

:0
how do u access them?
ive really been wanting to find a way

[tropic arrow]

Writing this post, to me, is best putting into perspective Mossbag's words at the end of his "mostly complete lore of Hollow Knight" video, that we are looking through a keyhole, at the vast world Team Cherry came up with

[glossy badger]

Someone here sent a Google doc of all the text from the game copy and pasted

[narrow girder]

oh wow

[silk dirge]

did no one find lost lace needolin dialog in there

[glossy badger]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fXWZMaeHiBTY1D6P2cuO929M0iXIYTXdeMifmLQ71sA/edit?tab=t.0

[tropic arrow]

who knows how long "a long night" in the world of Hollow Knight even is. Not like the sun is even visible.

[glossy badger]

Couldn't find it. Her dialogue is under lace_abyss

[silk dirge]

i wonder if she doesnt have any

[glossy badger]

But Mr mushrooms needolin dialogue is under mr_mush

[tropic arrow]

way. too. long.

[wicked comet]

Aren't gods like the light so they might be the illusion of the sun || I know I am rambling||

[glossy badger]

While his normal dialogue is Mr_Mushroom

And none of it is in order

[tropic arrow]

ultimately, the world is an ambigious one, and that's what I like about it. It's even debatable whether these fictional Bugs are as big as IRL bugs or not, and that's the way it should be, though that is not a debate I wanna start or spark here and now.

Many, MANY interpretations are open

be it the history, the characters, or pretty much bloody everything

well, "everything" is an exaggeration, but the way I see it, most things are up to interpretation

[wicked comet]

I came here because of the theory that weavers before the whole fall of their kingdom and escape weren't they like the radiance they enchanted people and wished for a hive like mind

[narrow girder]

a pain but definitely a very useful source all the same

[humble iron]

Considering how water behaves they're likely not bug sized

[narrow girder]

might need to a bit of deciphering to figure out what some of these aliases or for for certain characters

[tropic arrow]

Like I said, let's not start this debate here and now, even if I agree with you, and the water is merely the beginning of it

[glossy badger]

Yeah very useful

[humble iron]

I mean it's pretty much not a debate they're factually not bug sized

[tropic arrow]

I find it... moderately interesting how Grand Mother Silk seemingly refers to herself as "our", is there any meaning to that, I wonder?

[left oyster]

THK can deadass be the protagonist for the third game hear me out

[tropic arrow]

or just a quirk of hers

[left oyster]

instead of crests they switch between prosthetic arms

like nero in DMC5

[wicked comet]

I want that too

[glass agate]

Wouldn’t they be too fat to fit anywhere

[wooden sphinx]

we dont see their shade in Sister of the void ending so maybe

[midnight vault]

The hallways would need to be 3 times as large to fit PV 😭

[tropic arrow]

does anyone have any ideas? All silk heart dialogue seems to be her, and all of it uses "our" and never "my". There probably isn't any major meaning to it, but I keep ruminating on it.

[wicked comet]

Hey can we assume menderbug died after HK events cuz in red memory elevators and ground in city of tears and the hive all seemed broken

[wicked comet]

Could be just a way pale being speak cuz white lady spoke like that I think

[tropic arrow]

Did she? Hold on

[uncut holly]

From what I know the general timeline looks like

• Pre Pharloom stuff happens like the Great Ancestors mentioned in the entrance sign to The Marrow. Where you are told to honor the great ancestors that made Pharloom possible before going to an entire biome made of bones.
• Tribes exist in Pharloom
• GMS arrives in Pharloom, Ascends the Weavers, Makes Phantom, Makes Lace, Goes to war with the Green Dancers from dialogue mentioning the Pale Monarch, likely goes to war with all 3 of the major factions. Also likely kills Nyleth causing the Stick Bugs to start killing people
• GMS is oppressive hyper controlling, and believes they are entitled to the entire world and the Weavers want out. They make various places to hide from GMS particularly Weaver Nest Atla and a few other Weaver Nests. They also made also made the nest to communicate with Faylorn
• The Weavers put GMS to sleep using the music of the newly constructed Citadel, likely constructed from the remains of some kind of place of Worship for GMS. The Weavers start calling people to the Citadel using a Ghostly Song calling Pilgrims to make the climb to the Citadel just to be tricked into helping contain the true god that is housed within.
• The Weavers get ousted in a unknown event, and Conductors take over. Its likely it was a group effort with the Vault Keepers and Architects aswell.
• The people of the Citadel get nervous after a noteable Conductor dies then they start looking to preserve their lives, they inject Silk into themselves and figure out they can use it to extend their life spans, they continue this for years.
• GMS slowly worms their way into the bodies of the people injecting themself with Silk and convinces them to stop the song of the Citadel, causing their full on waking.
• All the Weavers run and GMS with full control of Pharloom works to hunt them all down.
  (Game Starts)

[tropic arrow]

She does refer to herself as "my" here and there

What dialogue we have of GMS, she always uses our

[left oyster]

you fool this can be easily solved by making it take place in a kingdom of giant bugs

[tropic arrow]

You are forgetting a period, for the Conductors took over after the Weavers at some point

[narrow girder]

wait ive only finished one 100% playthrough did we got confirmation that GMS is a higher being?

[uncut holly]

Oh i got that

[narrow girder]

cos i cant remember,,

[tropic arrow]

Ah

[wooden sphinx]

or 14(or even more) years of development

[uncut holly]

What i dont know is where does First Sinner place on this

[tropic arrow]

I skimmed it, though I don't think there were many, if any, weavers left at that point

[wooden sphinx]

Hollow Knight Shade and Soul lets go shadesanity

[left oyster]

look THK switching between prosthetic arm movesets is just too much of a sick concept, i'm already making art and music for it (and dont forget about lore)

[wicked comet]

Pure ones for sure none are left mixed yes some are

[tropic arrow]

Second Sentinel's charm, reserve bind, mentions that it's for when silk is low, so it could not have been made during the golden age, when weavers were around

And if silk somehow ran low when weavers were ruling, this kingdom was always ruled by fools and never had a chance

[wicked comet]

They went as far as collect weavers in 1/8 just weavers so the only ones left are hidden

[uncut holly]

During the Weaver reign they deified themselves and there where shrines to them. We know that certain things had to have happened by certain points involving the tribes.

Hornet and the Snail Shamans talk about how the Green Dancers versus'd the "Pale Monarch" so they likely had to deal with them but could have went out around Weaver time aswell.

The Stick Bugs only winded up killing people after Nyleths death, also the thing we see isnt a shrine its a grave. Nyleth when they where alive kept the Stick bugs calm, so we know they are dead around Weaver time because they pray to Weaver idols to stop the Stick Bugs from eatting Pilgrims

[narrow girder]

wait so what does it mean by 1/8
like of the total weaver population?

[rain spindle]

shes 1/8 weaver

[tropic arrow]

what do the snail shamans say about the clover dancers? That's new to me

[rain spindle]

pure weavers are extinct

[wicked comet]

Yes

[tropic arrow]

I did not think they 2v1d her

[narrow girder]

ahh makes sense

[left oyster]

she's great-granddaughter of a weaver

[tropic arrow]

poor saps never had a chance

[wicked comet]

They said they thought their kind was extinct or something I think

[uncut holly]

They mention something about how they had to deal with the Pale Monarch. It was mentioned here a bit ago

[left oyster]

daughter of a weaver = 1/2 weaver
granddaughter of a weaver = 1/4 weaver
great-granddaughter of a weaver = 1/8 weaver

[uncut holly]

I cant remember specifics i can try searching though

[tropic arrow]

I would like that. It would be nice for my post, my interpretation of Pharloom's history

[rain spindle]

there arent male weavers iirc

gms wanted a daughter

[narrow girder]

lowkey might try to do a second playthrough to fully go over the lore i know now a bit better
to better understand what ive seen

[wicked comet]

|| we do know weavers to reclaim their place from grandmother silk tried mixing their blood with other kind of gods (Eva as example) so can we assume that herra was planning to create a mix of weaver and other godly being blood before hornet ||

[narrow girder]

its so interesting i love this game

[rain spindle]

they could have waited

the knight would face gms for hornet

[wicked comet]

|| the npc in HK said the mother was of common blood but the king was one of high status but he never said he was a king weaver

[uncut holly]

Also also some other lore about the Green Princes, we know the most about their history, it seems their entire civilization started when the families of the two kings hunted a "Pale Stag" that gave them the right to rule and "may" have made them immortal as well.

[tropic arrow]

I should probably put this into a google doc when I'm finished and ask for opinions here, even if the bloody thing is too long

[uncut holly]

Hornet questions in the journal entry if the Pale Stag ever existed though. But the time that the Green Prince has been alive without anything to eat is odd.

[rain spindle]

its just one family

[tropic arrow]

That... would actually help explain an issue I had with the timeline, because the Green Prince is so old, and time has been much kinder (not from his perspective) to him than it was to Karmelita

[uncut holly]

But they married each other? I would think it would be two families of the hunting party?

[rain spindle]

the implication is that its incest

they were born at the same time, have identical features and their circumstances at birth doomed their love

[wicked comet]

Pale stag is one of the mysteries I keep thinking about because it clears the idea that any pale beings is automatically godly maybe he came from the pale kingdom or something from where pale flower come from)

[tropic arrow]

royalty does what royalty does best

[uncut holly]

I forget the Green Princes wording but killing that Pale Stag was supposedly what made them... I forget the wording its what gave them right to rule, and it would make sense if it made them immortal

[tropic arrow]

mark of their divine right (to rule)

Verdania, or Lost Verdania I suppose, is the region that has the most mythological vibes, of all the areas

[tropic arrow]

that idea was cleared to me when Lace is referred to as "pale one" at least once

[uncut holly]

I mean it would make the most sense if them killing that stag gave them an immortal life span

[rain spindle]

yeap. they hunted together

[tropic arrow]

The princes, twins or soulmates (...both?), proving their divine right to rule over this green, vibrant, lush land by hunting a creature that is, as Hornet puts it, "myth made real"

[uncut holly]

Because i mean, Green Prince is older than the entire Kingdom of Hallownest

[rain spindle]

I reckon its both. But palestag is weird

[uncut holly]

It just makes alot more sense if he was immortal

[tropic arrow]

Heck, the enemies here are referred to as "pendra" and "pendragor"

[rain spindle]

how was it even born

[tropic arrow]

Verdania really does give mythological vibes

[uncut holly]

Yeah in the Pale Stag seems to be a mythological being, Hornet questions if it ever really did exist

[tropic arrow]

Someone on reddit made a post and there is seemingly some Arthurian myth connection to some act 3 stuff, it was a neat post

[uncut holly]

Oh yeah id believe it.

[tropic arrow]

tbf the Green Prince is seemingly in the memory, so it really does seem to be real

[rain spindle]

The hearts quest storyline is

the rest not so much

[uncut holly]

I mean King Arthur got his right to be king from pulling a sword out a stone, but also in some versions a lake nymph gave him a different sword

[austere coral]

he looks a bit weaver-shaped though, maybe a possibility

from his shrine statue thing

[wicked comet]

Maybe just a way the weavers create graves

[tropic arrow]

Anyway Imma get back to my post, this thing just keeps on getting longer

[uncut holly]

A bit Monty Python but why does magic woman giving swords mean you are a viable host for an entire system of government.

[austere coral]

true

and it’s not thaaat similar

moreso just the beeeg orb

[cinder glen]

||why does lace fight hornet ? she doesn't seem like a bad person, is she ?||

[rain spindle]

bc of GMS

She wants to stop hornet from reaching the cradle

thinking abt it lace should have helped hornet against gms

[uncut holly]

Green Prince: "Here, the proof of our majesty... mark of our divine right..." (It was real I swear! Cornwall was real! And there was a water lady with a sword and thats why I should be king!)

[rain spindle]

the knight would have saved her

when she reached the void

[austere coral]

the way I’ve understood it she’s jealous of Hornet because she mistakenly thinks GMS will replace her with Hornet, maybe being a more ”ideal” child in her eyes, so she’s a natural rival

[tropic arrow]

She may have been spent after her fight with Hornet, and needed time getting back up

[narrow girder]

thats a shame tbh :(

[tropic arrow]

which is why she shows up only in the end

[uncut holly]

Do we know for a fact its one family?

[rain spindle]

should not*

[rain spindle]

thats what the tablets imply

[uncut holly]

oh

[tropic arrow]

Like I said, royalty does what royalty is best at

[uncut holly]

Yeah i mean they do do that

[wicked comet]

I did here of another way to beat lace is to play needoling until she give up fighting and goes crying

[rain spindle]

bugs and royalty. both proficient at incest

[narrow girder]

unfortunately 😔

[uncut holly]

They also killed a mythical deer and thats why their rule is valid. Very mythical based kind of like Britian.

[rain spindle]

reminds me of hercule tbf

all higher beings remind me of greek gods

[tropic arrow]

Again, I repeat, there are enemies in the region called "Pendragor" and "Pendra", and I doubt the similarity to "Pendragon" is coincidental

[rain spindle]

yeh

[tropic arrow]

Anyway, anyone have that snail shaman dialogue on the dancers?

[uncut holly]

Had to look up what Pendragon was

I see

[rain spindle]

its on the wiki iirc

[uncut holly]

Oh im getting it

[tropic arrow]

Yeah that'd be nice

[wicked comet]

there is no good god in HK games even weavers were acting like GMS before she came as you can read from the text it says "one ming one union " or " bind their souls bind their shells their voices their song "

[tropic arrow]

I mean

[grand kayak]

Unn seems pretty benevolent

[rain spindle]

unn

[tropic arrow]

doesn't the Shellwood needolin thing imply that the Weavers ate people?

[wicked comet]

he chill

[tropic arrow]

Also

[rain spindle]

shade lord too ig

[uncut holly]

Oh no thats not what it says at all

[rain spindle]

he never did anything bad

[uncut holly]

They prayed to the Weavers to stop the Stick Bugs from eatting people

The Stick Bugs reallllly like eatting people. Sister Splinter eats a Pilgrim Buffet every week

[wicked comet]

the void devours anything with souls so I think he did do quite the dmg before

[rain spindle]

he protected lace and hornet

[tropic arrow]

I find it rather amusing that the Weavers call other bugs "simple", after discovering that they were uplifted from the oh-so "special" pharlids of Pharloom

[rain spindle]

seems pretty chill

[rain spindle]

they are simpler than god born beings like moths and the mosskin\

[tropic arrow]

A rather arrogant bunch, they seem

Man writing this post is making me speak in (very) mild prose

[wicked comet]

that was our BOY not original shade lord . apparently shade lord could only exist for the moment all of godhome was focused on him

[uncut holly]

The Stick Bug society is strange, they where made by Nyleth who is likely not a Higher Being themself, Nyleth while they where alive stopped the Stick Bugs from eatting people and ensured people safe passage between their leaves. However at some point they died and Stick Bugs began to eat people, then the Weavers got involved and killed Stick Bugs.

[rain spindle]

knight turns into him anyway.

[tropic arrow]

Nyleth is weird. They're like, the closest thing to a higher being without actually being one.

[uncut holly]

The writing might have said in the journal they gave Pilgrims safe passage under their leaves, which would date them to having died during Weaver time.

[rain spindle]

Nyleth is likely a grimm case being an avatar for a higher being

[tropic arrow]

They have the vibes, and I'd honestly buy it if she was ever called one, but she ain't

[wicked comet]

still in the brief moment that we see the void attack hornet and lace you can see that the void tenticules are slashed by something not stopped so the void itself isnt good its just our boy! the good part of it

[tropic arrow]

Hornet mentions she would have maintained the balance of the woods, so things like Sister Splinter would not emerge while she was around

[uncut holly]

According to Needolin Nyleth just kind of rolled up and "settled their seed"

[rain spindle]

its impossible to control all void at once. knights control has a range

[rain spindle]

the chozo statue still recognizes him as lord of shades

[uncut holly]

I think Nyleth just stopped the Stick Bugs from eatting people, Nyleth did make Sister Splinter after all

It seems that the Stick Bugs are extremely voracious by nature, and Nyleth kept them under control.

[tropic arrow]

I don't think anything points at her making sister splinter, is there?

[wicked comet]

there is the theory that shade lord isnt just the knight but the knight and all the other vessel and the entire void combined that is just fighting its anctient enemy the radiancce

[tropic arrow]

That one seems to have grown that large of it's own accord

[uncut holly]

Well she made all of Shell Wood, and they came from shell wood

[tropic arrow]

that doesn't equate to her making sister splinter

[uncut holly]

Sister Splinters needolin is also interesting, I recall them talking about how they where the last

[rain spindle]

nah its the knight. you can see his form there. he probably assimilated the others tho

[cinder sage]

Guys how far are yall in willing

[tropic arrow]

I can make an automata that makes a gun, that doesn't mean I made the gun

[wicked comet]

maybe sister splinter is the weaker sibling?

[cinder sage]

I’m still in act 1

[tropic arrow]

you should leave my dude

we discuss spoilers past where you are in this channel

[wicked comet]

dude dont even come close to this place until you got like 2 endings

[uncut holly]

Actually maybe Nyleth did scare off the Stick Bugs, I always viewed them as a faction leader but.

Needolin for Sister Splinter:
Children, children, hide and strike!
This land is ours, now!
By our claws, none but us now!
Sisters, sisters, so long gone!
Other, other, sleeping deep...
Creeping, creaking...

[cinder sage]

Alr

[uncut holly]

We know that Nyleth grew Shell Wood, I would think they also caused the Stick Bugs. Maybe the Stick Bugs are just the local predators of her wild that went over board when she left.

[rain spindle]

who is the strongest between khann, karmelita and nyleth

[tropic arrow]

In game difficulty goes to Karmelita, but I'd imagine Nyleth is the strongest

[uncut holly]

Probably Khann I would think

[tropic arrow]

That's just vibes tho

[rain spindle]

hornet says karmelita is her equal

[wicked comet]

it did say that all of shellwood came from one seed so maybe nyleth is the flower of the seed and sister splinter is the wood? or maybe just a stick from the tree while nyleth is the whole tree?

[tropic arrow]

in skill

[wicked comet]

I HATED HER FIGHT SO BAD

[uncut holly]

Wait where did it say that

[crisp musk]

Disturbing revelation
When you die in Trobios fight, he bows over and says "adieu"
This implies the existance of ||france||

[midnight vault]

tragic for you

[uncut holly]

If so that give solid foundation for what Nyleth is.

[rain spindle]

... most of hornets strenght comes from skill

[tropic arrow]

Journal entry
"This graceful ruler once possessed skill to rival my own. At her youthful peak, her voice united all Skarr in her service."

[steel turret]

Where else did you expect the snail shamans to come from

[rain spindle]

shes not the knight

[glossy badger]

Dlc is bug France

[midnight vault]

https://tenor.com/view/angry-birds-gif-12007401521632546156

[tropic arrow]

I, for one, doubt her half higher being heritage plays a small part in her strength

[uncut holly]

No no I mean this

[midnight vault]

Steel city IS REAL

[rain spindle]

lace does say her ascenscion was broken hornet must find a lot of fights hard

[tropic arrow]

Sure, skill is a very big part in Hornet's strength, but her heritage plays a large part too.

[steel turret]

Khann was the easiest in-game, but he had full command over the coral he was always surrounded by so logically it should’ve been him, right?

[rain spindle]

makes sense

[tropic arrow]

her strength is diminished then

[glossy badger]

Steel city dlc only accessible in steel mode

[tropic arrow]

She explicitly says this, she needs to recover her strength after her imprisonment

[rain spindle]

anyway the strongest was khann ig

[uncut holly]

I do also feel like Sly from Hollow Knight would be Hornets equal tbh

[steel turret]

I still think Sly was Hedgemol

[rain spindle]

in terms of skill hes probably better

[uncut holly]

Yeah

[rain spindle]

sly was a different beast

[wicked comet]

Some things may be hidden, but never forgotten. The shrine remains to remember the wood's first seed, her that once was and always is said by seth so I am pretty sure nyleth was the tree and sister splinter was a stick rebel

[uncut holly]

If Sly got infected he probably wouldnt be that bad because all his strength comes from skill

[midnight vault]

All Khann needed was 1 basic attack moveset to be the most difficult honestly like it would be LL but coral instead of void tendrils

[tropic arrow]

territorial advantage, he would not be as strong outside his land. Could one call him the strongest of the 3, if he is the strongest only under the right condition? I suppose the same applies to Nyleth, but still.

[rain spindle]

i think he summons the crust

[uncut holly]

So actually about Khann Shakra says that the power they held rivaled the Citadels in their map spot for Sands of Karak

[rain spindle]

in that case he can use the territorial advantage anywhere

[uncut holly]

Not the power Khann held but the Crabs in general

[tropic arrow]

the entry with the big dudes in the coral tower mentions that they control the coral around them, and must have lived in the tower for a long time to be in-tune with it so

[rain spindle]

he only lost cuz the place dried up and his soldiers started to die

[tropic arrow]

That to me suggests Khann, just like them, controls the coral around him

[midnight vault]

idk how an ocean just up and disappears but it mustve been one tragic downfall for him

[tropic arrow]

rather than summoning it

[rain spindle]

isnt it implied khann made the tower?

[uncut holly]

Yeah Khan can control coral at will. According to Shakra the power of the Crabs was equal to the Citadel because of their mastery over Crust Control

[tropic arrow]

I find it more perplexing how Khann and his people seem to have went out peacefully, in their tower. He was a warrior lord, you'd think bro would go down swinging

[tropic arrow]

that doesn't contradict what I said

[uncut holly]

Khann did make the tower

[rain spindle]

if he made it then he can summon it

[wicked comet]

I think for sure the ranking of divine rank itself is equal but where the strengh is put is different the singer put it in fighting skill , khann in soldiers and his people and for nyleth in her territorial life as in creating life

[tropic arrow]

Him making it could just as easily be him shaping it by controlling the coral, rather than summoning it

[uncut holly]

I think they might all be on a similar level tbh

[rain spindle]

hmmm

[midnight vault]

Clover Princes have all 3 of these

[uncut holly]

Khanns civilization was the most powerful though

[tropic arrow]

And even if Khann himself could summon coral, his soldiers could only do so in the tower

a mighty bastion, but their strength outside it is questionable

Karmelita's ants are all quite skilled, and has numbers, discipline and brute force all in good measure.

[steel turret]

That’s true, but the spire he commands is still a part of his toolkit which he’d realistically always have access to. If you took her weapons away, wouldn’t Karmelita be far weaker as well?

[wicked comet]

I think they were of equal divine rank since you can use their heart instead of the heart of any others to do the ritual

[uncut holly]

So on the history of the Crabs. The Crabs are the last ones to go out compared to all other civs. Meaning that the Crabs likely are after the Green Dancers. Which THEE biggest plot hole I have seen in the entirety of SilkSong.

Because how did it dry up we dont know

[midnight vault]

She still summons bone structures

[steel turret]

My theory is it’s got something to do with the fire beings in wispy thicket

[uncut holly]

I dont think anything ever relates them

[tropic arrow]

All we know is that all the old powers of Pharloom; Nyleth, the Skarr, Verdania and the coral people, all faded under the pale monarch's dominion

[steel turret]

Maybe there was a higher being of flame that dried the place up?

[tropic arrow]

How harsh must your rule be, for an entire ocean to dry up and become mostly desert

like

that has got to be an achievement

[rain spindle]

karmelita was alive she just hid from her people due to the haunting

[wicked comet]

I think the thought that it dried up has a story linked to the surface and WAYYYYYYYYY bigger matters then kingdoms we know

[tropic arrow]

Age caught up with her, but it doesn't change my, or the snail shamans' point

[uncut holly]

We can kind of infer from Khanns ending dialogue that he winded up being a accidental savior to those standing against the Citadel. Which wasnt his intention likely.

[midnight vault]

It could be that the ocean land was far more fast in previous eras possibly stretching to the fleatopia area before it was dried up

[steel turret]

Have we ever seen the surface?

[tropic arrow]

Nameless Town is in the surface

[wicked comet]

yes many times

[rain spindle]

dirthmouth and nameless town

[tropic arrow]

I think the fact that the Skarr didn't turn on Karmelita even while haunted shows just how beloved she was

[steel turret]

Ah. I just questioned it since we’ve never seen stars or physical sunlight, but that may just be a quirk of the setting

[wicked comet]

nameless town the edge of blasted steps the edge of the coral where you fight the last watcher boss or something i forgot his name

[rain spindle]

i mean we have seen thunder and rain

[steel turret]

Yeah

[midnight vault]

She doesnt really command them anymore is the thing she's just been rotting in her bed chambers for who knows how long

[uncut holly]

Probably yeah we have no idea how it dried up its probably some way bigger story ark, we also dont even know how it happened or who did it.
The best theory that I have seen is that because the Citadel uses Steam from the Exhaust Organ, that they sucked up all of the water from the Coral Caves to fuel the Citadel and thats how it happened. But that seems a bit odd and it mostly comes from lore of Steam existence.

[tropic arrow]

Sure, doesn't change that they didn't kill her while Haunted, and left her be

And I think I heard that you can find some skarr mourning her, after you take her heart

They seem to care a great deal for her

[steel turret]

I wonder what happened to the gods of thunder and rain

[tropic arrow]

Speaking of the whole heart thing

[sonic dawn]

what is the lore of the slab? the twelfth, the fourth, the first and such, what are they?

[midnight vault]

Would be so peak if we go the the surface and see actual rain instead of sewage or whatever

[wicked comet]

while the citadel could have played a role the whole deserted thing might have being from as they said the gods of thunder and rain abandonning everyone

[steel turret]

Hell yeah

[wicked comet]

could be just numbering

[tropic arrow]

what, exactly, do the snail shamans mean when they say that they don't want to see the old powers of Pharloom disappear, after we take the hearts and they use it for the spell?
I mean, the coral people are dead, the king as well. What, exactly, disappears when we take his heart?
Karmelita is old, likely too old to even reproduce, and seeing as there are still baby ants, she most likely has a successor. What, exactly, is fading when we take her heart, aside from her life?
The same can be said of Nyleth and the Green Prince.

What exactly did the shamans mean?

[steel turret]

After seeing how dismal Pharloom is, we owe the pale king a big apology

[uncut holly]

Slab Lore. The Slab was constructed around The First Sinner who is cannonically the First Weaver, he did something to anger the Citadel and I am not sure why, im pretty sure he was imprisoned by other Weavers though. People here said it was for spreading the truth about how the Weavers werent really gods.

The Flies where a race of beings that where imprisoned for a crime lost to time, they where born sinners, and we can see in their mind read dialogue that take it out on the other prisoners with stuff like "You are more of a sinner than me!"

"Your the sinners!"

[wicked comet]

I think we are killing them that means that khann was probably not dead just dried and waiting for water to rehydrate

[sonic dawn]

also what is the apostate, the indolent and so on?

[tropic arrow]

I think the only thing the Pale King might outdo Grand Mother Silk in, is the number of deaths either is responsible for, and that's because of the infanticide of unparalleled proportions.

[sonic dawn]

so the weavers were born in pharloom?

[uncut holly]

Indolent is an insult for a lazy person, usually also meaning incompetence

[midnight vault]

He arguably has more powers in the dream realm

[uncut holly]

Yes. GMS made the Weavers by ascending the Pharlid spider enemies at Blasted Steps when she first arrived. This is the truth that the First Sinner knew, they were the first.

[tropic arrow]

First Sinner angered Grand Mother Silk specifically. She discovered that they were uplifted from Pharlids, and not GMS' "holy children" as she told them.

[wicked comet]

i think all pale beings come from a singular MASSIVE kingdom that fell which explain SOOO much the everbloom being a myth as the shamans though , the pale stag , the ability to fight something even gods cant the void

[uncut holly]

I am very unsure the timeline placement of First Sinner

[steel turret]

Which was horrible, but it wasn’t a deed the pale king did lightly. And it would’ve never happened if the radiance wasn’t running amok

[midnight vault]

Everbloom isnt inherently native to Hallownest was it tho? I thought Grey Mourner brought them with her

[sonic dawn]

so gms is the original spider?

[wicked comet]

yes I am not saying the massive kingdom was hallownest

[neat sandal]

could be the slab or whatvever weavers built at mount fey
cause we could see coral tower just below mount fey.
and we see in memory, the water fall from above.
so best guess. citadel take water from mount fay or buld slab or weaver building make water can't osmosis to below anymore

[uncut holly]

I have heard people say they where imprisoned by Weavers for going against their self deified god narrative. I have heard people say they where imprisoned as punishment from GMS. I am very very unsure about their whole placement.

[tropic arrow]

I put First Sinner at the time when Grand Mother Silk was ruling Pharloom. I believe her discovery of them being uplifted from Pharlids is what led to the Weavers' eventual act of putting Grand Mother Silk into her slumber.

[wicked comet]

I am saying there was a big shift that made all pale beings escape to different places

[tropic arrow]

There has to be a reason why they did that, and the only one I can find is this

[midnight vault]

mb I meant like the pale beings didnt have real access besides wherever Grey Mourner has them

[gray iris]

what is the lore reason grand mother silk convert pharloom to roman catholic

[wicked comet]

the white lady has one with her though

[sonic dawn]

why was gms put to sleep?

[steel turret]

Pale beings crave worship

[steel turret]

Probably because she’s a total prick

[tropic arrow]

I more get the vibe that the ones who turned Pharloom into a theocracy were the Weavers, the Citadel as we know it may not even have been built until after GMS was put to slumber.

[midnight vault]

That could just be from Grey Mourner is the thing. Also isnt she afraid of the flower in Hollow Knight outright refusing to have it near her?

[sonic dawn]

and she just accepted it?

[uncut holly]

An important part of the timeline is when the Weavers made the Citadel they didnt only hypnotically call Pilgrims from the wastes. They also hypnotized the people from The Nameless Town, and likely also places like Greymoor, Sinners Road, Deep Docks, thats probably how those places all started, although they existed there already.

[tropic arrow]

the timeline regarding the citadel is one of the confusing things to me

[steel turret]

Considering the first thing she did after waking up was go on a massive streak, I doubt it was of her own volition

[tropic arrow]

I also find the possibility that GMS was eepy, even when fighting Hornet, to be somewhat amusing.

[wicked comet]

she did give it hornet saying that is our only way to fight the void which means even pale beings cant fight the void

[uncut holly]

We know that the First Shrine is the First Shrine, and we use it to call Pilgrims thats why it sends out a call.

[steel turret]

It’d explain why she was so weak in her boss fight

[midnight vault]

GMS seems to always want someone worshipping her like a mother, this goes from the Weavers to the Conductors and Pilgrims to Lace and Phantom. They all betray her in some way and she starts over and eventually started the haunting I assume

[gray iris]

if hollow knight 2 were a good game we would recruit grool and hop on the mount fay bird to the top of the citadel and kill grand mother silk

[wicked comet]

also I think she was afraid more for the knight since he was made of void and their only hope she feared taking it would kill him

[uncut holly]

I find certain aspects of First Sinner extremely extremely interesting like their crime of Apostasy. Or the fact they fight like GMS.

[steel turret]

I wonder how strong TPK was

[sonic dawn]

who is the grey mourner

[rain spindle]

same as gms probablh

[uncut holly]

Grey Mourner is in Hollow Knight OG

[rain spindle]

however gms was really nerfed when we fight her

[uncut holly]

Presumeably normal people cannot kill GMS, you can only kill GMS by binding them.

[steel turret]

I’d imagine TPK fighting like a juiced up pure vessel with less melee and more magic

[wicked comet]

no no I dont think all pale beings are equal but rather have no reason to fight each other

[wicked comet]

since pale stag is a pale being yes but way weaker

[tropic arrow]

According to Hornet, pale beings in general look for devotion, and the only alternative is destruction

[uncut holly]

GMS seems to have the form of a massive Soul Battery, as Silk is just transformed Soul. They seem to be a entity of monumental Soul Reserve and power. So much so they can last against the Void for a long time.

[midnight vault]

I feel like GMS has more powers in the physical realm with weaving silk into things while The Pale King is able to mess around with void, pale things, psychic bug sapiance, and dream magic stuff

[tropic arrow]

"You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."

[wicked comet]

the reason is why do they seek it I dont out of nothing since I stand y the theory they were all part of one big civilazation of pale beings

[uncut holly]

Even the Pale King uses Silk. He might have even used it to make the Kingsmoulds and Wingsmoulds as we see Silk Spools in the Kings Workshop

[steel turret]

Yeah she put up way more of a fight than the radiance did

[timber pond]

It's possible that the Void and its origins caused the pale beings to separate into diffrent places. Would be an interesting route for the story to take.
Considering the steel city tries to regulate it, its liek a Greek myth practically lol.

[midnight vault]

He contracted the weavers to do the silk stuff for him tho

[uncut holly]

Silk is a very versatile version of Soul and can be used to make spells in a similar way Soul can however its much more versatile. With Soul you must focus and have a person involved to focus it, with Silk you dont need a focus.

[tropic arrow]

As Hornet puts it in her hunter journal, for moss mother, but applies here:
"Motherhood is an instinct that can push creatures beyond what seems their normal limits. It turns even weaker beasts like these into formidable foes."

[austere coral]

she’s just an eepy princess:3

[wicked comet]

it is very possible since shaman thought the pale flower was extinct but never gave us the reason

[timber pond]

Pale beings being like Greek gods is a cool idea

[rain spindle]

psilk and soul are the same

weavers turn soul into silk

[uncut holly]

I think he did it himself too he has alot of Silk Spools around the White Palace, and yeah only Weavers can make Silk, but he seemed to just have alot in supply.

Yep they are

[lean goblet]

i always assumed the sky was covered by dust clouds
not sure if there's evidence for that or i just assumed it though

[tropic arrow]

and seemingly taught others how to do so

[gray iris]

the abyss is snail juice thats why the snails help u go into abyss

[steel turret]

But in exchange you require weaver genes to produce Silk and use it to the fullest, whereas any old bug can produce soul

[wicked comet]

I think silk is not a form of soul . I think to use it you infuse soul into silk

[rain spindle]

soul is hard to manipulate

[sonic dawn]

how did she ascend them?

[rain spindle]

they are said to be the same

[uncut holly]

I forget the exact wording, but Hornet turns enemy Soul into Silk

[gray iris]

pale being is arthropod abyss is molusk

the game is all about arthropod fighting molusks

[steel turret]

It is but you don’t need to be from a certain bloodline to try. Every non-weaver enemy who uses silk is just carrying stray strands of it on their person

[uncut holly]

Theres a cutscene she struck them on the head with a strand of Silk and changed their forms.

[tropic arrow]

By the way, Pharloom was run on a caste system, do we know what all castes were?
Obviously Weavers are at the top
right below them the Conductors, Architects and Vaultkeepers
presumably (read: assumption) the Choir, the military of Pharloom, would be here
Pinmasters, before their obliteration?
pilgrims?
Underworkers are definetly the lowest caste

[wicked comet]

really but when the hornet was called the rare child of wyrm and weaver her silk was called precious for being able to fuse soul into it

[timber pond]

You might be able to make silk without weavers, its just the process is likely to take 2 whole business weeks or something ,whereas weavers can do it like instantly. Greymoor seems like asilk factory kind of

[rain spindle]

se the flaws in soul sanctum'

[gray iris]

do conductors bees be robots

[steel turret]

That sounds plausible.

[gray iris]

or are they just little bees

[rain spindle]

some people cant tolerate soul

[tropic arrow]

this is what I have so far, but everything below the top 2 is an assumption, and where the Underworks place is obvious

[steel turret]

They’re robots, you can even use them yourself

[uncut holly]

1. Weavers
2. Conductors
3. Vault Keepers, Architects
4. High Society (Gourmand, Trobbio)
5. Lower High Society
6. Elite Choir Guards
7. Choir Guards
8. Servants of varying ranks with masters
9. Underworks

[gray iris]

poison bees is the most powerful tool in the game

[timber pond]

I think of it as Soul being raw Copper whereas Silk is copper wire. I would have a permanent carer if I could create 50ft of copper wires in 10 seconds😂

[uncut holly]

Outside of Weaver Reign just cut a bit off the top

[tropic arrow]

thank you, I forgot about Gourmand and what not, this is very nice, and something to edit into my post

[gray iris]

how is conductors so high rank if they are so easy

[tropic arrow]

we know that they became the rulers of Pharloom, taking it from the Weavers

So they would have to be the highest, outside of them

[austere coral]

yea, seems like it. Weavers can make silk instantly from soul, or like Hornet with her silk hearts a small amount inherently within their shell, whereas to others it seems a ”rare” substance

[tropic arrow]

Although the Vaultkeepers and Architects don't seem to be too far off of them, when it comes to the regards at which they were held

[steel turret]

Because you’re a demigod and they’re not. Imagine a normal, run of the mill bug with nothing but a pin on hand fighting against flying bugs battering them with robotic flies

[gray iris]

trobio could beat the shit out of all of them

[steel turret]

Yeah but that’s because he’s the GOAT, it’s not a fair comparison

[uncut holly]

We technically only see two Conductors in game. The Conductor who is alive but sick that we talk to, in files called the "Last Conductor", and the remains of Conductor Mizzello who is in the White Ward.

[tropic arrow]

We also hear of a conductor called Romino, at the start

who wrote that starting poem, Pharloom's folly

[uncut holly]

Presumeably the Conductors where just wearing very big suits to make themselves look imposing

[wicked comet]

"in pharloom yours is a rare skill, prized beyond measure , to channel one's soul within a thread . soul and silk inseparably linked" clearly implies the silk that hornets uses is infused with soul and something only pales beings can do as in infuse their soul into something since the only other special silk hornet calls similar to hers is the silk from GMS not the weavers silk

[steel turret]

Speaking of imposing, goddamn I didn’t know lifeblood was like that. The pale king was right to put the kibosh on it.

[gray iris]

bell bearing eater could probably kill grand mother silk if she really wanted to

we could have fed our fast travel to bell bearing eater to team up and beat grand mother silk

[steel turret]

You mean bell bearing beast right? The eater is that bigass centipede

[sacred heath]

that’s my dog bro what the hell

[gray iris]

if hk2 were a good game we would ride bell bearing beast up the citadel with grool and kill grand mother silk

[steel turret]

I didn’t even realize the heinousness he was suggesting, bruh

[tropic arrow]

Also, just to make sure

[steel turret]

And she has babies!

[tropic arrow]

from what I can tell, it was the Conductors that started hunting down Weavers, and Grand Mother Silk picked off after ensnaring the kingdom once more?

[gray iris]

with the abyss powers of grool and the sheer length of bell bearing eater we would be unstoppable

[sacred heath]

bell beast would have soloed GMS if there was a station nearby

[crisp musk]

The babies can reach the cradle, tested it myself
So bellbeast can too

[sacred heath]

bell beast should have busted through the wall to kill GMS

that’s how you get the good ending

no void portal no weaver queen GMS just gets mauled to death

[tawdry flare]

Nuh uh the babies can fit through tighter spaces

[gray iris]

your fast travel dont go into the abyss thats why grand mother silk went to the abyss so bell bearing eater couldnt get her

[uncut holly]

We dont really know the insighting incident to cause the Conductors to turn on the Weavers, maybe it was growing influence from the life preservation Silk of the White Ward, but even then that was thought to have happened during the Conductors reign

[wicked comet]

GMS can infuse soul and will into silk to turn bugs immortal but also obedient but she cant produce her own silk so after weavers escaped to other kingdoms she ordered the them to be hunted

[uncut holly]

Its possible the Pale King outlawed Lifeblood, aswell as possibly bound the Snail Shamans to their ancestral mounds so they couldnt cause chaos.

[steel turret]

Maybe the light of the everblooms is the counterpart of the void, equal yet opposite. Where the void doesn’t have a distinct will, at least before the knight came along, what if every manifestation of the light had its own? That’s where we get the pale beings

[tropic arrow]

I think we can connect some dots and make an educated guess as to why the Weavers were fading.

Eva mentions it's borderline impossible for Weavers to reproduce, and from what we can tell, their attempts at solving this problem all failed or just weren't enough. Their numbers naturally started dropping due to their bad reproduction, which is why they faded.

[steel turret]

He made the right call about lifeblood, the stuff took over all of the wormways

[wicked comet]

the interesting thing is that the white lady calls the everbloom the FIRST light meaning it is the direct opposite of the void and its source is something WAYY more powerful than any pale beings

[tropic arrow]

Or at least, that's what I got anyway

[uncut holly]

I think Eva was made around GMS time, as they are in Weavnest Atla and we see lore writing saying they made this place and fled down here because its too deep for GMS to see

[tropic arrow]

There is absolutely no way GMS would allow any Weaver be considered as deities during her rule

and the Weavenests are seemingly named after Weavers that were deified

[uncut holly]

I think they where made in secret, it talks about how the entire place is a secret place away from GMS

[wicked comet]

from what we can see there are no male weavers confirmed yet so maybe the issue was a no male birth

[steel turret]

Indeed. Wherever or whatever that first light comes from, it’s a fearsome force

[sonic dawn]

btw who is the giant bird from mount fay that the mask maker said she defied the gms

[uncut holly]

Thats Fayforn their weird, we cant read their thoughts with the Needolin.

Aura farming

[tropic arrow]

Possible, but that hardly changes my point, or clashes with it: Weavers were failing to reproduce. This is the likeliest reason why they were fading, as Ballador puts it.

[sonic dawn]

its a single individual?

[uncut holly]

No its a species

[tropic arrow]

They seem to be intelligent

The tablet mentions Fayforn is "as likely to grant insight as death" to the Weavers that communed with it

[uncut holly]

I originally thought their name was Faylon but i might have just made that up. The Weavers seemingly made huge structures and an entire Nest just at the peak to seek the counsel of Fayforn.

[tropic arrow]

They're mysterious, all we can tell is they are in opposition to GMS (hardly surprising)

[rain spindle]

Are we going to ignore how.mantises and ants are implied to come from the same origin

[uncut holly]

The Weavers really valued the insight of Fayforn, The Mask Maker says this

[wicked comet]

the weavers were worshipped before GMS came so after whatever thing made all pale being scatter and go to different kingdoms came I think she probably lost her way of making or getting silk so she tried to control and use the weavers'

[uncut holly]

They made the entire place just to get insight from them

[tawdry flare]

That’s fair the Fayforn is awesome

[tropic arrow]

The Weavers weren't even a thing before GMS

[uncut holly]

Wait what?

[wicked comet]

they clearly were

[tropic arrow]

they were not

[tawdry flare]

GMS made the Weavers bruh

[uncut holly]

No GMS made the Weavers we see this by First Sinner

[wicked comet]

from the nameless town where you can play needle

[scenic tapir]

im confused. is the fayforn a higher being or just some mythical creature?

like the palestag

[tawdry flare]

Funny giant flying dog

[tropic arrow]

there literally isn't any weavers there, nor does anything imply so

[uncut holly]

Oh you mean the Pharlids before they where Weavers?

So I used to say that the Nameless Town was the origin place of the Weavers then i realized that the memory of the Nameless Town is actually saying that the Weavers hypnotized the denizens down to the City

[wicked comet]

yes

[uncut holly]

Yeah but Nameless is not the Weavers creation place its probably Blasted Steps even though it seems like itd fit more in Nameless Town

[scenic tapir]

suspiciously bird shaped dog

[wicked comet]

one thing for sure is that weavers WERE NOT created by GMS

if she could create them she would not hunt for them at all

[tawdry flare]

The cutscene that shows her making them:

[uncut holly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcod4lkwLIA

[tawdry flare]

There it is!

[tropic arrow]

they weren't created, they were uplifted from Pharlids

[wicked comet]

which one???

[uncut holly]

Weavers where made by GMS though. We can see them created

[tropic arrow]

they, regardless, did not exist before GMS

[uncut holly]

Oh yeah they werent created they where ascended

[tawdry flare]

Created ascended, potato potato

[wicked comet]

scared me I thought I missed something like a CUTSCENE after 100% the thing

[uncut holly]

Thank you Elderbug

[wicked comet]

...

[tawdry flare]

Regardless, Weavers didn’t exist prior to GMS ascending them

[uncut holly]

I will sit anyway

[sonic dawn]

who where the people of the nameless town

[frigid acorn]

Need to rest? That bench may be iron, but its surprisingly comfortable. Plus, i enjoy the company.

[tawdry flare]

Downloading the kill Elderbug mod as we speak

[tropic arrow]

hm

[frigid acorn]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-elderbug-scared-shaking-shocked-gif-16383281729998450888

[tropic arrow]

ok, so it seems Weavenest Atla was made during GMS time. Guess they renamed it then

[frigid acorn]

Can i atleast fight

[tropic arrow]

Cause again, no way that GMS allowed any Weavers be considered deities while she lived

[frigid acorn]

Do i get a weapon

[tawdry flare]

** ** No

[wicked comet]

I really do think they did though the implication of there being old weavers from the seemsters and the way they lured people from the surface and the whole idea that for grandmother silk to even have her power she NEEDS silk from weavers

[tropic arrow]

Still, doesn't change my point. The likely reason that the Weavers were fading and the Conductors took over, is due to their reproduction problems.

[wicked comet]

everything implies weaver existed before GMS

[tawdry flare]

She has limited soul, so she needed to reclaim it from her creations

[frigid acorn]

Ok we can fight heres my weapon

[winged badger]

@limber anvil

[wicked comet]

again weavers not her creation

[winged badger]

This shit is so cool

[uncut holly]

Little lore bits i realized. Most of the ants seem to have a Needolin line saying "Is this still her song?..." Scouts also say stuff like "All for the Singer!" So they seem to have gotten the thing their following mixed up

[tawdry flare]

If I took your kneecap out and reshaped it, it would be my creation

[blissful knoll]

Strong fleas

[gray iris]

damn they nerfed coral tower so hard

[tropic arrow]

Again, I repeat, the fact that they don't turn on Karmelita even after being Haunted serves as the best proof of how beloved she is to the Skarr

[uncut holly]

It seems all the ants have atleast one quote saying "Is this still her song?..."

[elder nymph]

Mask maker has silly eyes.... They can see the true nature of things? This is also bad, or taboo, or causes the maker discomfort.

Disney EVA see the true.nature as well? Or is it more soul with her?

[sonic dawn]

btw who is this on hunters march?

[tawdry flare]

That’s Karmelita

[uncut holly]

Karmelita the queen of the ants

[sonic dawn]

how do yall know that

[tawdry flare]

I fought her

[uncut holly]

Cause they have a boss fight

[wicked comet]

song eater lair ??? and we got a small thing at act 3

[sonic dawn]

o

[uncut holly]

Also its zee lore

[sonic dawn]

what is the lore behind her

[winged badger]

NPC that’s there talks about it wayyyy before the fight ever happens

[tawdry flare]

She was the queen of the ants until she got old

[wicked comet]

if this is how your map looks you probably should be here yet

[blissful knoll]

Song so good all the ants united beneath her

[sonic dawn]

im doing and exploring everything before act 3, tho im missing some stuff at wormways

[scenic tapir]

you will get spoilered here buddy 🙏

[sonic dawn]

no prob

[uncut holly]

She was around before Grand Mother Silk even arrived, she drew all the ant tribes together with her singing and had a thriving community that was willing to trade and was actually quite nice. The giant ants in the journal entries apparently guarded vaults and store fronts. Eventually when Grand Mother Silk arrived she hypnotized the ants and warred against them, eventually the Weavers put Grand Mother Silk to Sleep with the song of the Citadel but the Weavers continued killing them anyway. Karmelita lived to modern day but is very old, shes also huge she cant seem to snap her children out of their trance and cant even leave their spot of hiding.

[wicked comet]

all mask makers have silly eyes some think it implies they can see the true thing of nature my personal theory is they use it to see which mask fit you best also why snails dont have masks I think

[uncut holly]

Oh. Sorry i just did whats asked i said the lore.

[sonic dawn]

you always say she "arrived" where does she come from?

[tropic arrow]

we can at least take solace in the fact that, judging by how there is still baby ants being born into her long age, that she likely already has a successor.

[uncut holly]

She has seemingly always been here, the Ants predate Grand Mother Silk and all stuff from current time but Pharloom is very old and there is a huge history there that has been wiped by the Citadel.

[tropic arrow]

so the Skarr won't go extinct

[tropic arrow]

they were referring to Grand Mother Silk

[wicked comet]

I personally think all pale being came from one land ( pale king , pale stag , GMS , everbloom ) and something made them flee

[tropic arrow]

Grand Mother Silk is seemingly not native to Pharloom, and comes from outside. From where specifically, we know not.

[wicked comet]

and made the everbloom so rare it became a myth

[sonic dawn]

"pale stag" and "everbloom" who are those

[scenic tapir]

i find it funny that mask maker doesn’t seem nearly as significant as mask maker in hk

[wicked comet]

everbloom is pale flower from HK and pale stag is a boss in act 3

[tropic arrow]

you probbly should not be in this channel, if you have not finished the game

[uncut holly]

Pale Stag is a mythical being related to one of Pharlooms previous tribes. The Everbloom is the Delicate Flower from Hollow Knight. You should really play the game.

[tropic arrow]

or are at least deep into act 3

[sonic dawn]

i mean we know there were civilizations before hk

[wicked comet]

they are so deep in lore and we just got lore dumped so hard maybe they will become important if we are promised a third game and we become content hungry

[uncut holly]

Yeah but this is Pharloom, infact all of Pharloom is older than Hallowneset the place Hollow Knight takes place

The oldest thing we know of in Pharloom is The Marrow, aka the Bone Biome.

[sonic dawn]

i wonder why the sky is always cloudy and grey, not a single trace of a sun or a blue sky

[uncut holly]

And maybe the Snail Shamans

[tropic arrow]

It really does show how much of a propaganda the whole "the last and only civilization" thing the Pale King tried to sell was

[scenic tapir]

when bug live in floor…

[uncut holly]

I mean there are very very few civs out there.

[tropic arrow]

true, but by all means not "the last and only"

and I highly doubt he wasn't aware of other civilizations out there

[timber pond]

Nah The Masters would be What Logically follows, Because they see void summoning as heresy in some capacity... and Guess what😂 .

[tropic arrow]

Pharloom did outlast Hallownest

[uncut holly]

We know of 4. Hallownest, Pharloom, City of Steel, A Serene Land(Grey Mourners Home).

[scenic tapir]

wait i realize mask maker has the same swirl eyes as hollow knight mask maker what the HELL

[wicked comet]

yeah by being desprate enough to bring 1/8 of a weaver that is LAST BORN and VERy OLD

[uncut holly]

Mask Makers seem to be a very wide spread phenomena like Snail Shamans. And Void Civilization.

[wicked comet]

yes they do if you use bomb on him he gives you some dialogue

it also implies some bugs are just born with mask and dont need them

[sonic dawn]

city of steel? when is that mentioned

[uncut holly]

The Mask Maker in Fae Mountain says some very interesting lore on Fayforn

[tropic arrow]

Mask Maker in either game has lore

[timber pond]

Also Steel assassin Sharpe isnt implemented in any HK content yet, and team cherry always follows up on Kickstarter backer stuff.

[wicked comet]

my theory is that ( pale being ) or their children are all born with a mask

[tropic arrow]

and both are weirdly knowledgable of the going ons

[uncut holly]

On notes from records the Citadel made when trying to hunt down Weavers that fled there. It seems to be where the Steel Bugs come from

You should really play the game more

Do not spoil

[tropic arrow]

7+ years for the next game, with Sharpe as the protagonist

[teal drift]

Mask makers i feel like are one of the first ways bugs ever gained sentience, thus being a highly conserved and constant force, but over time gods or being born sentientreplaced them as the primary sources of sentience.

[timber pond]

Well,The original Kickstarter backer wanted Sharpe to be " a rival character in hornets journey"so....

[uncut holly]

I highly doubt we will ever ever find a beginning to the Hollow Knight universe as a whole.

[teal drift]

Mfw my backer character gets lacemogged

[uncut holly]

The oldest thing we know is Void Civilization, everything else before that we probably wont know. But Void Civ is still unfathomably old and vast.

[sonic dawn]

"Mysterious Ze’mer arrived in Hallownest from a serene land, bringing with her a collection of delicate flowers."

[teal drift]

Yeah i doubt were getting a third game even. Hk will remain cryptic and open to interpretation forever

[uncut holly]

Honestly Mantis Tribe has been around so long they could have seen some iteration of the Void Civilization

[tropic arrow]

unfathombly vast indeed, their civilization stretches between Pharloom and Hallownest, and quite possibly the entire abyss

[wicked comet]

probablly the dlc

[uncut holly]

Yeah thats where Grey Mourner came from

[tropic arrow]

Sharpe is a kickstarter character, so he can't exactly be cut forever

we will probably get the Steel Assassins in an expansion or the like

but I do wonder what led to them being cut from the initial release

[timber pond]

White lady sort of(questionable) implies that their ilk is related to the void from origin for some reason. I think im coming to like the idea of Pale beings sort of being "greek Gods"

[uncut holly]

I have a personal theory ive been booed out of here for that the Steel Bugs are void constructs and that the City of Steel is a City that has void but is very limited in its use to only The "Masters", the servant bug used void and is being hunted by Steel Seer Zi because of it.

[tropic arrow]

On that note, the cut "Strung to Serve" ending ws prooobably the original ending for defeating Grand Mother Silk normally, before being replaced by Weaver Queen, yeah?

[uncut holly]

We see Sharpes Nose was void like qualities, plus we know that void arts are common enough there for a lowly servant to learn about it.

[tropic arrow]

Or at least, that's what I think it is anyway

[timber pond]

The context for The steel soul quest leads me to beleive they only act if void is involved or summoned. Meaning..... these events would need to be after the game. (because hornet is responsible for the plight of act 3....)

[tropic arrow]

Shouldn't be considered canon, still interesting to discuss from a meta perspective

[scenic tapir]

was it ever specified anywhere that masks give the bug a way to reach sentience? we know that masks make up a bug’s “identity” and as per what mask maker states about “to exist, a face is needed” but that doesn’t explicitly state much of anything

[timber pond]

It Imbues a "Role" upon the bug. There is a secret room that Styx has in this game, it implies he switches out masks and it changes how he acts.

Like maskflies have a mask that make them act like a bird

i guess

[wicked comet]

it seems that plasmoyom or the blue liquid is still considdered forbidden in every part of the world

I mean in hallownest it was very very close to the void

[quartz flicker]

What would you say is THE MOST obscure secret in Silksong?

[short zenith]

is there any significance?

[uncut holly]

With Hallownest we had a starting date. We know that all of the bugs in Hallownest except for the Mantis, Moths, Mosskin, Weavers, Bees, and the Mushrooms, all relied on instinct and didnt really have "higher thought". We have essentially a starting point for the Kingdom.

Pharloom doesnt have that. Pharloom was doing Pharloom things and was fully functional long before Grand Mother Silk ever arrived, the people in Greymoor where farmers who lived with The Craws who the Greymoor land actually belongs to. And there where various tribes already doing things there, the Snail Shamans existed, the Pinstresses existed, and we dont have a start date besides GMS.

[wicked comet]

what eva says if you come while using lifeblood

[short zenith]

also uhhh other question:
what were the ||pilgrims doing before silk mom?||

like why do they climb

[wicked comet]

Come no closer! I sense the forbidden blood coursing through you, that which grows and reshapes the world in its own vulgar image by eva

[foggy fractal]

Red Coral Gorge cut is one of the biggest tragedies in all of gaming...

[karmic tartan]

Rip that and pharloom bay

[timber pond]

If you are infected with the Greyoot and you go to eva. She despises you and acts like she knows exactly what it does.

[karmic tartan]

Can you copy paste the exact dialogue

[timber pond]

Might be tough to find but lets see

[lavish tangle]

She doesn’t recognize you and think you are the root

[karmic tartan]

This is something I need to know

[quartz flicker]

I dunno is this is that obscure. I bet a lot of players went to Eva to see what she has to say.

[uncut holly]

Greyroot is seemingly at the very least a Powerful Being, if not a Higher Being. The Wiki has two categories "Higher Being" and "Powerful Beings" for beings where its disputed. Greyroot is extremely powerful.

[karmic tartan]

Also people are saying how much more advanced Pharloom is than Hallownest but like Silksong clearly takes place a long time after the events of Hollow Knight

[wicked comet]

Stay back, twisted leech! Even lodged within another's shell, your ravenous nature shines clear.[NPC]:You shall not defoul this chamber, nor claim my soul. Begone!</entry>

[rocky smelt]

Come no closer! I sense the forbidden blood coursing through you, that which grows and reshapes the world in its own vulgar image.[NPC]:Whether it was imbibed willingly or not, none shall be allowed into this chamber while so afflicted. Begone!

[lavish tangle]

Also hallownest has been in ruin for like an eternity

[sour igloo]

Tbh it is kinda weird since it's Ending_B in the text files, and Weaver Queen is Ending_A. So it came after presumably. Considering how you can fail the Phantom QTE, I'm guessing it was meant as an alternative if you failed to bind GMS in time but it just wasn't implemented?

[wicked comet]

isnt that if you come to her with lifeblood?

[rocky smelt]

this nis the lifeblood dialogue btw

[uncut holly]

Greyroot is able to deny having their mind read, and overpower Hornet when not in parasite form. In parasite form they can compel Hornet to not enter the Void until they are removed in Act 3, they can seemingly ignore all silk related bindings and if you are trapped by The Slab Fly they will break you out in Greymoor halfway through your trip and kill the Fly. Eva is also terrified of them. Not to mention they can also kill GMS without the need to Bind them.

[tropic arrow]

Greyroot is weird.

Honestly, Twisted Child ending might be the most ambigious ending in HK and Silksong both, and the one with the most questions surrounding it

[karmic tartan]

Okay this is going into the same category as lifeblood, mysterious substance with negative effects, likely connected to a higher being

[sonic dawn]

do we know anything more about her?

[wicked comet]

just a weaver very very very badly hurt

[karmic tartan]

Yeah we do know something about her, her name is Widow (sorry I had to)

[lean temple]

Not that I know of

[vivid kernel]

imagine godhome in silksong

[tropic arrow]

What even is Greyroot? Is she the same species as White Lady, as both are referred to as "root", have some focus on reproducing/breeding, and have the same eyes?

[uncut holly]

Greyroot definitely becomes a Higher Being by the end of the game if you get the Cursed Ending. If they already where a Higher Being is debated, but they are definitely extremely extremely powerful.

[lavish tangle]

Also shows that the big bulbous heads are the actual masks and so herra looks like this when she had the dreamer mask

[karmic tartan]

No