sk-lore

[fierce canyon]

oh i see so this is new territory

[twin dragon]

First sinner definitely went against her own sisters

[reef cloud]

either that or he rescued the ‘next in line’ successor to hallownest so hornet

[ember river]

I'd say First Sinner being sentenced by other weavers is the most likely

But it's quite confusing

[twin dragon]

Just like widow being fucked over because she was loyal to gms

[cedar skiff]

i think its crazy that the weavers were the one to make the citadel

honestly gms crash out is kinda justified

[lean temple]

Sister of the Void implies it was because of their sibling relationship

[ember river]

I think the slab timeline is one of the biggest plotholes that need solving

[twin dragon]

They've inserted the pins exactly where her silk glands supposedly are, they know the anatomy

[limpid summit]

The Weavers hated and sealed GMS but they still revered her and thought of themselves as divine, First Sinner doubted her (probably because she also created Phantom and Lace) and the weavers were like “Are you saying our god isn’t a god” and imprisoned her

[ember river]

I theorize that it looked much different

[fierce canyon]

how would she be next in line? was that said anywhere cuz ion remember her wanting or being given the next in line to rule status past her birth and teachers

[reef cloud]

oh yea forgot endings had names lmao

[twin dragon]

And ripped out her mask, as a sign of disowning or smt

[fierce canyon]

cuz her weaver mother also said that she should do what she wants in the red dream i thinks

[ember river]

Nah, she said they themselves aren't gods, or angels, or anything, they are just powerful normal bugs

[reef cloud]

she’s regarded as the princess of hallownest and hollow knight is the prince

[ember river]

"She called us holy, she called us divine. She lied"

[cedar skiff]

i just looked at mask maker dialouge and i find it interesting that it implies the weavers made the citadel (at the very least the way it is today)

[limpid summit]

Well yeah no they aren’t that was the sin

The weavers thought of themselves as divine

Because of what GMS imbued within them

[fierce canyon]

who said that

[twin dragon]

I mean im pretty sure first sinner said that weavers are uplifted bugs by gms, not their own divine form

[lean temple]

That's a bit horrific tbh. They also removed her mask for some reason

[ember river]

It doesn't imply, it outright states it, but I believe it started off as something that looked much more like a weavenest and was expanded upon when the new settlers arrived and "took the mantle"

[brisk finch]

Caravan spider is a cut fast travel npc, it appears.
||"We’ve arrived, small spider. Bellhart waits just through that tunnel. From this distance at least it seems safe enough? Perhaps the rumours of its danger were overstated? If you’re needing travel here again, I’m inclined to offer a more reasonable rate." "Thank you for your service, Sir. It may seem safe from here, but I shall keep my guard up nonetheless." ||
|| " (purchased passage, “get in!” etc)"||

||"Many thanks for freeing me, small spider. It was a careless move, to blundered into those deadly threads.You too look a spider, but these ropes suggest you use no silk in your service?Hoi. No! Don’t mistake. I am arachni, sure, but no Weaver, and the better for it! If I could produce silk I’d be fast seized by the Citadel.To weave... Quite a talent, and I’ll not deny some envy, but my weakness means my hide stays safe.It’s no matter really. I’m a fair talent with my vineropes. Trade me a few rosaries and I’ll take you via routes only I’m able to scale." ||

|| " Gah! Traveller, please! This wretched thread has me snared tight. There must be a thick knot up above. Cut me free!"||

"Travel to Bellhart?"

"(canceled shop menu)"
||"Spider, I can take you to Bellhart, but I warn you, the pilgrim’s speak of bad happenings around that place.Though I’ve not seen it for myself, I’m charging a premium to cover the risk."||

||CARAVAN_SPIDER_TALK_THREAD "(No longer needed. Remove.)"||

||CARAVAN_SPIDER_MEET_CORAL "Well well. I’ve not seen this old stop in many a beat. You have my thanks for clearing it.The coral overgrowth has grown wild. The bug built structures about these climes are subsumed beneath it. I’d heard the coral was always a hard thing to keep under control, even back when the place was well travelled.Now there’s no one left to tend the path, it’s no surprise so few pilgrims find their way through." ||

[twin dragon]

Not directly deying gms, but denying the weaver's holyness

[limpid summit]

Timeline goes

• GMS creates Weavers
• Weavers build Citadel to trap her
• They rule until the Choir takes over
• Conductors rule, after a while they start experimenting with silk
• The experimentation wakes GMS, she starts haunting the Citadel
• Starts sending parties to capture Weavers to save Lace

[twin dragon]

Check what i wrote below

[reef cloud]

well she’s literally the daughter of the king

[limpid summit]

Damn this gotta be early early

[twin dragon]

IMO it is heavily implied that the citadel was built around GMS's cocoon, and to keep her sealed

[limpid summit]

Cause Bell Beast and Bellhart were pretty early

[fierce canyon]

yeh but like i said, her weaver mother told her she doesnt wish her that life in the red dream

[twin dragon]

As the citadel's sigil is literally her cocoon

[limpid summit]

Yup

[fierce canyon]

that she should be free

[cedar skiff]

ohh i guess that makes sense. would that mean pharloom was basically just a weaver only settlement at the beginning?

[twin dragon]

So it was built after

[silk dirge]

when did the citadel start dying out

[ember river]

Why is it so assumed that it is to save lace, GMS has an infinite supply of silk

[fierce canyon]

so that she isnt necessarily bound to the title unless she said she wanted to?

[brisk finch]

Coral, so ay

[reef cloud]

hence why she became a sentinel instead, sorta like lace is for pharloom

[twin dragon]

Citadel def was

[ember river]

I always found the idea of grabbing weavers for more silk incredibly stupid

When you're quite literally the god of silk that gave her the capability in the first place

[twin dragon]

Same

[limpid summit]

It’s not enough to sustain Lace apparently I dunno

That’s what we’re told

[brisk finch]

The cut character actually has a relevant line for that (the silk thing) ||. I am arachni, sure, but no Weaver, and the better for it! If I could produce silk I’d be fast seized by the Citadel.To weave... Quite a talent, and I’ll not deny some envy, but my weakness means my hide stays safe.||

[reef cloud]

yea so she’s princess by definition but she don’t take it like a ruler

[twin dragon]

Though it's weird that the capture orders for weavers are written, while the bugs are haunted simultaneously

[limpid summit]

Wdym

[cedar skiff]

where does the weavers leaving and lace being created fit into this

[brisk finch]

Cut stuff isn't canon, but some of HK's clearly stuck in TC's head enough to show up in Skong

[cedar skiff]

because i think lace likely was created after the weavers left

[twin dragon]

You find the capture order for hornet written on a choral commandment, and several more in the cradle

[limpid summit]

They are, but they’re so powerful compared to normal bugs that they saw themselves as gods on earth
First Sinner saw through this lie and the weavers punished her for it

[ember river]

The thing is when talking about these things one must differentiate between
Grand Mother Silk
The Citadel proper
The Weavers

They aren't the same and more often than not their goals are not alligned

[limpid summit]

Well we aren’t sure BUT

[ember river]

The citadel wanted silk because they could only harness it from GMS, and wanted to use it for their own selfish goals

[cedar skiff]

it seems though as if first sinner directed her anger at gms though no?

[fierce canyon]

thas what i mean tho, so the knight didnt necessarily save her cuz shes next in line if he understood her position as a sentinel rather than a future ruler in the first game, thats my thought process

[brisk finch]

Nah, but it can give some context for TC's mindset when writing certain lines

[zealous pasture]

getting a 404 on this did you move it

[limpid summit]

Part of GMS’s lie according to First Sinner was about Weavers being her daughters

If GMS created an actual daughter (Lace) that would piss off FS

[ember river]

No, it's about weavers being some sort of holy being

[limpid summit]

So lace might have been created earlier than we think

[ember river]

It's just an uplifted beast

[cedar skiff]

when the fuck did gms have time to make phantom and lace if she was being sealed/surpressed

[twin dragon]

They might've carried out the order under the conductor's will, even when haunted, though hornet mentions how the haunting unifies bugs under one will, silk's will

[cedar skiff]

oh wait i kind of like this line of thought actually

[ember river]

That's another confusing plot point in the timeline

[limpid summit]

GMS made Lace and Phantom second as far as we know

[brisk finch]

I'm assuming they were her creation while surpressed

[limpid summit]

Like post Weavers, but before she got sealed

[cedar skiff]

because then itd make sense why fs directed her anger at gms rather than the weavers primarily for inserting themselves into a godly role

[kind pagoda]

is there a lore document yet?

[twin dragon]

Seeing as the weavers kinda went on to do their own thing

[limpid summit]

No and probably not for a minute

[ember river]

Well the citadel was already fully built as we know it at that point

[limpid summit]

Yeah it sort of makes sense

[cedar skiff]

could also very well be the case considering just how crazy neglected lace was

[limpid summit]

But it was the Weavers that controlled the Slab at the time

[ember river]

The issue I have with the citadel is that it looks nothing like what weavers build

We have clear weaver architecture and then we have the citadel

[twin dragon]

We don't know what the weavers initially built

[brisk finch]

Lace has clearly been wandering the Citadel halls for a while, just killing random folks, so it wouldn't surprise me

[limpid summit]

Being angry at GMS and denying her is apostasy, and the Weavers hated GMS but they saw her as their divine creator, so denying her is denying the Weaver’s divinity

[twin dragon]

Yeah, but that weaver architecture are basically research facilities

[cedar skiff]

a lot of this plotline does boil down to simpler emotions being the driving point. like jealousy would cause a valid crash out for fs

[limpid summit]

That’s why they sealed First Sinner

[twin dragon]

While the citadel is a big ass church

[ember river]

Which not only lacks any reference to the weavers, but uses wholly different tech, iconography and layout

[brisk finch]

With the way Weavernests are spread around, it wouldn't surprise me if the current Citadel was literally build on top of their ruins

[ember river]

First Sinner never denied GMS other than calling her a liar, she denied her OWN divinity (and that of other weavers)

[brisk finch]

Just like how everything in Pharloom has a foundation of bone and the like

Ye, they "build" the concept, not the literal walls

[limpid summit]

“She lied” ?

[ember river]

That's what I am thinking, the citadel originally looked much more as a weavenest

[limpid summit]

Calling GMS a liar is denying her

[ember river]

Other than calling her a liar, that's not apostasy

[cedar skiff]

i mean it was built to lure regular bugs in

[ember river]

She may be a deceiving god

But a god nontheless

[limpid summit]

Apostasy is denial of a religious truth is it not

[ember river]

Apostasy is denial of the divinity or existence of a deity

[limpid summit]

GMS

[cedar skiff]

also might be a coincidence but the higher parts of the citadel are only accesible by claw line aka a weaver technique. probably as a result of regular gameplay advancement progress but i think it goes well with the story

[ember river]

Renouncing the idea of something holy

[twin dragon]

High order might've switched that out

[ember river]

GMS is still a god in her eyes, it's the weavers that are not

[cedar skiff]

itd makes sense only weavers could access the higher parts of the citadel

[reef cloud]

well that was just another possibility i gave you, my personal theory is that they weren’t hollow so they acc have some care for hornet

[twin dragon]

And of course, there would be a big difference between a church and a research facility

[limpid summit]

Yes she’s denying the Weaver’s divinity and thus denying GMS’s authority
That’s apostasy
She’s not denying that GMS created her or is a god

[brisk finch]

I think the concept of a "hollow" knight has been pretty thoroughly debunked. The Pale King's plan would have never worked, because these babies were never hollow

[ember river]

That's why First Sinner says "She called US holy, she called US divine. She lied" That means they are, in fact, not holy or divine, thus denying their own divinity

[ember river]

It's apostasy because she renounces her own status as a god, or god-like being

[cedar skiff]

i do think gms making lace leading into first sinner feeling sort of bitter and then unraveling to question her own and the others divinity leading in a full on crashout goes well with the timeline

[ember river]

Otherwise it's just blasphemy

[twin dragon]

Mind you whiteward IS kind of similar to some of the weavenests

[limpid summit]

It’s blasphemy either way

[brisk finch]

I definitely feel like FS is responding to a "pure" child suddenly existing

[limpid summit]

The emphasis of “She” implies GMS

[ember river]

Well it's blasphemy but that's not the sin she was condemned for

[brisk finch]

Altho that makes me wonder when Phantom appeared as a failure

[twin dragon]

Probably her first time

[ember river]

The apostasy is by definition denying the divinity of weavers, that's what it means and you can't really bend that word to refer otherwise

[cedar skiff]

i dont think the weavers even knew of phantom

[limpid summit]

Yes

[ember river]

Saying GMS is a dirty no good liar isn't renouncing her godhood

[cedar skiff]

unless i missed dialouge

[limpid summit]

The Weavers didn’t call themselves divine

GMS did and the Weavers ran with it

[sonic iris]

I am not sure if its lore relevant but I noticed some tablets mainly below ability shrines/pedestals and I haven't seen a mention of them (just searched lightly so don't quote me on that). Just thought I should point them out. You do need to needolin them.

[cedar skiff]

also the weavers did attempt making life themselves no? eva?

[ember river]

Thus it's just blasphemy and not aspotasy

[ember river]

It's heavily implied they did

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[cedar skiff]

again i might me misremembering dialouge but isnt it the weavers who made eva

[ember river]

Just as the conductors did after them, as Ballador regrets

[limpid summit]

Yes it is

[twin dragon]

They made a big ass church to praise themselves lmao and keep gms asleep

[limpid summit]

The Weavers attempted to make a higher being

[brisk finch]

Oh no, I meant. Did Lace specifically cause FS's anger, or was it Phantom. Which creation influenced that

[limpid summit]

Okay let me rephrase

[cedar skiff]

no the weavers definetly saw themselves gods i mean the effigys basically confirm that

[ember river]

The Weavers thought themselves as holy

[cedar skiff]

the specific wording doesnt matter

[ember river]

Maybe not gods, but something akin to angels

[limpid summit]

The Weavers didn’t come up with the idea that they were divine out of the blue

[twin dragon]

It simply could've been realization

[limpid summit]

They thought themselves divine because of what GMS told them

[cedar skiff]

i guess initially they filled an angel role but wanting to seal gms means they wanted more

[ember river]

No, GMS told them, that's why First Sinner called her a liar, but again, calling a god a liar god doesn't make it apostasy

It's just not what that word means no matter how you try to bend it

[limpid summit]

She denied her godhood by calling GMS a liar

That’s literally what happened

[ember river]

Her own godhood

[cedar skiff]

i like to think they didnt even know of phantom

[ember river]

Not Silk's godhood

[cedar skiff]

shunned experiment

[twin dragon]

They most likely did see lace around, as caretaker mentions seeing her around the citadel for a long time

[cedar skiff]

man pharlooms timeline is crazy difficult to piece together i swear it wasnt that difficult for hallownest. i mean okay there were also some weird specifics there

[twin dragon]

But how come did they guess she was made purely from silk?

[cedar skiff]

they can sense it just like hornet mentions

[brisk finch]

I think that allows for more breathing space timeline wise, but that just makes me wonder how soon it became clear to GMS that Phantom was a failure. Immediately? Why not just undo her, in that case?
GMS is implied to have some love for her children in some way (even if it's not normal/healthy), but would that apply to a newly existing lifeform?

[ember river]

Hallownest timeline is pretty straightforward

[twin dragon]

That's what makes me like this lore over the first game's, this one's more complex and convoluted

Much more interesting to theorize about

[cedar skiff]

i think she gave phantom too much own will and once she started rebelling she immediately discarded her. then again maybe that means it was phantom who caused first sinner to think gms was trying to replace the weavers, and due t that mistep gms discarded phantom and made the much more obedient one-note lace

theres a lot of ways to twist it to make it interesting in different perspectives but i definetly like the idea that first sinners first driving force was that bitterness

[brisk finch]

Lace, an eternal child, because children are just extensions of their creator. Phantom was a person (sort of)

[cedar skiff]

^^

[brisk finch]

I like that as an interpretation from GMS' side

[twin dragon]

Judging by the fact that phantom thinks she was spun to fade, makes me think she's been rejected by gms, most likely why lace thinks similarly

[brisk finch]

"I wish to make life" vs "I wish to have a child"

[cedar skiff]

lace definetly is made to be a child permanently. i think the only reason she even begins to be more aware of this over the time of the game is because gms is asleep and busy pupeetering another million corpses

[ember river]

The part I like most about this lore is the whole time when the bugs ruled the citadel, no weavers and no god monarch

[twin dragon]

Or because phantom ended up being hideous, as she hides her face with (presumably) lace's mask

[ember river]

It sounds so interesting because the sane characters that remain don't seem ill intentioned at all and yet they did some of the most fucked up shit in the setting

[loud jasper]

is there any discoveries made in the past few days ?

[cedar skiff]

yeah that gap is super interesting because i think thats what really starts the crazed religion. shit i think its not far fetched to say a lot of the citadel was even built by manic worshipping bugs, specifically the vaults for example

[twin dragon]

They've seen how badly they fucked up

[ember musk]

have yall found this guy? was he some kind of welcome thing for arriving pilgrims?

[ember river]

Where do you get that phantom's mask is actually lace's

[ember river]

Seems to be

[brisk finch]

Does Caravan Spider count
Listen I just really like the caravan spider. I've only had them for like 2 days but I'm already sad they were cut

[loud jasper]

counts for me what is that

[grand kayak]

Well the Acmii exhibition opened today so we got to see how pharlooms map changed during development. That was pretty neat

[cedar skiff]

damn ive never seen this where is he

[twin dragon]

Seen a comment that said the mask fit lace perfectly

[fierce canyon]

mmm yus, my personal theory (till mossbag bullies me for it being stupid) is that because he became or gained control over the shadelord (which flashed temporarily in the cutscene) he can feel emotions because he ascended or sumn since he no longer needed to be perfectly hollow to have absolute power

[ember musk]

the bench to the left of the vaultkeepers melody has a breakable wall

[twin dragon]

And i assume with phantom ending up hideous gms wanted to hide lace's face if she ever did too

[cedar skiff]

damnn

[ember river]

A couple of them certainly did, but Ballador for example does seem to miss the times when the citadel was a proper place without half zombies running the halls. I'm not sure how he'd justify the underworks but there was that

[brisk finch]

Seemingly an early fast travel mechanism. You found them tied up in silk, saved them and then paid them to travel to Bellhart (currently haunted) and "Coral" (which they describe having been to before)
I have some dialogue posted in here+ on reddit, but I don't want to keep spamming huge blocks of text

[twin dragon]

Jubilana also misses her time as a pilgrim in the citadel

[brisk finch]

I really like the coral dialogue. They also specify they are arachni, a spider but not a Weaver, and how their inability to produce Silk saves them

All cut, to clarify

Shows to me how TC was thinking about the categorizations early on

[grand kayak]

Rip coral gorge it seemed like it was going to be very pretty

[twin dragon]

Obvious, he wants to be in charge again

[cedar skiff]

any idea of whether the weavers curse of reproduction is just something they have (as like a defect) or something that was put upon them maliciously

i like to think gms did that on purpose

[uncut holly]

I have found 2 creatures with the ability to resist the Needolin mind read. Those are Faylon, and Greyroot.

[ember river]

Well he does tell you it was much better, he was either too naïve or an actual asshole

[rustic holly]

Faylon as in the bird thing?

[uncut holly]

Yeah their the massive yeti moth like thing

[twin dragon]

I mean i assume the post-weaver high order were regular bugs at some point, maybe with a lil bit of authority, that dwelled the citadel when weavers were around, they're all indoctrinated it seems, some 1984 shit

[cedar skiff]

well even the weavers feared it so it makes sense itd resist their arts

[brisk finch]

Coral Gorge had a healing salve side quest at some point, "Coral Curative
" ||Our medicines are in short supply and pilgrims often arrive here injured. We can prepare a soothing salve from the ground shells of coral creatures, if we only had some...||

[ember river]

They were all regular bugs, yes

They did end up seeking immortality and to advance their technology through extensive use of silk

[hard belfry]

do we think that its actually the knight hornet sees in the sister of the void ending, or just another shade? since the horns dont seem to be the same

[ember river]

So of course that resulted in essentially a civilization-scale soul sanctum

[twin dragon]

still saw silk as godly, still seemingly oblivious of external suffering

[cedar skiff]

no it is the knight

[brisk finch]

They seem to match the shade Knight seen in the ending, even if that doesn't match gameplay Knight

[cedar skiff]

the knights shade just looks like that in cutscenes

[brisk finch]

In turn dooming their descendents, it's perfect

[twin dragon]

as they had silk in them right?

[ember river]

Well, silk is a magic thread that extended their life and came from a coccooned god you revered

[brisk finch]

Yes, every generation more of it

[twin dragon]

Since they seemingly inserted it into the genome

[brisk finch]

They were born with it, making them vulnerable in a way Hornet and other outsiders are not

[ember river]

I'm not even sure if it passed down or if they extended their life for long enough to live during several generations

[twin dragon]

I mean silk's a shape of soul

[brisk finch]

They mention descendents iirc

[cedar skiff]

i think its mentioned that its passed down

[ember river]

I see

[twin dragon]

Holy shit the lore is some nightmare fuel

[ember river]

I knew it was widely accepted so but wanted to double check if it was established or was just a very popular headcanon

[twin dragon]

Uplifted bugs to be the god's daughters found a way to neutralize their creator and started to basically control the world in their will

[brisk finch]

I remember reading it, but if I can think of a specific phrase I can look for it in the text

(Reading it in game, not in a text file)

[ember river]

Silksong is much darker than the original one, despite the fact that in Hollow Knight you play as the actual darkness

[twin dragon]

Then ran away to escape the creeping consequences, leaving the big ass church society they built to keep it running

[hard belfry]

makes the pale king look like a saint

[cedar skiff]

i think its also cause we view silksong through an unbiased lens

we definetly wouldnt be seeing much of its darker side if not for the fact we play as hornet who actively questions things

[lean temple]

The Knight in their Lord of Shades form (Void Given Form)

[twin dragon]

Everyone in that society being indoctrinated to hell

[kind pagoda]

can i read the lore somewhere or is it still being formed

[cedar skiff]

if we were playing as the knight we would miss out on a ton of information

[twin dragon]

And the goal to keep the kingdom eternal

[grand kayak]

Yeah hornet actually asks questions which definitely helps give us more info

[cedar skiff]

i dont think theres a big lore doc or like youtube video yet

[grand kayak]

People just kinda talk at the knight for some reason

[cedar skiff]

theres a ton of smaller videos/analysis but not one big document or smth like mossbags hk video

[brisk finch]

She also plainly states stuff like the whitward caretaker text. No guessing on our part required

[twin dragon]

Phantom has a lot of lore surprisingly

[cedar skiff]

yeah imagine if we met the vaultkeeper as the knight lmfao

[twin dragon]

Without a single line of dialogue

[cedar skiff]

iirc hornet actively demands the vaultkeeper to lock tf in

[twin dragon]

Seems to be part of the driving force of lace's beliefs

[uncut holly]

Phantom seems to want you to kill them so they wont fade out from lack of silk slowly

You can use the Needolin on them

[twin dragon]

Seems to be GMS's first attempt at weaving life from pure silk

[uncut holly]

They also say that they where "discarded" and "forgotten"

[twin dragon]

To then be a reject, who was probably assigned by the citadel to expel waste

Or that was what she thought she was only good at

[uncut holly]

Yeah supposedly they where discarded, however it seems basing off how GMS acts and is, that Phantom was probably not discarded because they where faulty, it was probably because of how they acted.

GMS loves going on and on about how Lace is "Loyal" and she really likes to use the word "Loyal" to refer to everything she likes

[cedar skiff]

i think its a nice contrast that gms actively wanted actual life that she could grow attached to and vice versa but only drove them away, while its the exact opposite for the pk, who wanted a hollow shell of nothing that actually got attached to him

[rustic holly]

what's the deal with silk hearts and why do we hear GMS's thoughts while getting them

[twin dragon]

I mean phantom tells lace that "they were spun to "Fade""

[uncut holly]

It seems like GMS is a control freak, who doesnt value the free will of "lesser" beings

Yeah they also do that

[brisk finch]

||Have you done it yet, bellringer? Wriggled deep? Discovered the depths of obsession that brought this place so low?
If you speak of this Citadel and its Silk, Caretaker, then yes, I now know the start of it. In the ward down below, I saw it clear, the hollowed husks, and the many torturous implements... machines to instill a bug with thread, that would see their life extended.
Aye! That’s it, in part! But there’s more scale to it than all that. Just think of’em greedily shoving the Silk into their shells, the madness that overcame them, eternal life for mortal bugs! Then think on how long it’s all gone on......The children born of them, and all the pilgrims after... The Silk has seeded deep into this kingdom’s shells, generations deep...No wonder Pharloom’s bugs proved such easy prey for that haunted thread. It had only to seek for itself to reach them.
Ho ho! Now your seein’ it, bellringer! These poor pilgrims, all born bound to the cruel system of our world, now stricken in its new cursed web.You at least are free from it. And free to shake it all up... if’n that’s your choosing.||

this is the dialogue between Hornet and the Caretaker after Whiteward that mentions the generations and children

[twin dragon]

Silk beings seem to be black

[uncut holly]

Widow is deliberately spinning Belhart as a gift of bugs "spun loyal for your waking"

Yeah they seem to be black and silk covered

[flat hearth]

wtf, where is this?

[twin dragon]

Also phantom might've been discarded for being "imperfect" and "hideous"

As she uses a mask in her fight

[ember musk]

@flat hearth

[twin dragon]

Either because the decay made her hideous, or gms messed her up during creation

[flat hearth]

Nice thanks

[cedar skiff]

man i wish that was the intended case because there could have been some banger ass dialogue with mask maker

not saying that it doesnt fit the narrative nicely but like, missed opportunity. or just purposeful mask maker bullshitting from tc

[uncut holly]

The Caretaker dialogue makes sense. So the bugs of the Citadel wanted to extend their lives beyond their normal limits, so they injected Silk into themselves and Silk is just a different more versatile form of Soul

[brisk finch]

This bit stands out to me as the cause of the game's suffering: The children born of them, and all the pilgrims after... The Silk has seeded deep into this kingdom’s shells, generations deep...No wonder Pharloom’s bugs proved such easy prey for that haunted thread. It had only to seek for itself to reach them.

It's just... plainly stated, which is hilarious to me

[uncut holly]

Soul is turned into Silk, really GMS is just a giant soul battery. They are the Soul Higher Being, or really its Silk but they just turn Soul into Silk

Oh the White Ward thing went on for a long time

[cedar skiff]

yeah it makes sense these bugs would abuse the fuck out of silk and see it as holy since there was nothing else to worship besides the sleeping gms

[uncut holly]

Its probably not that the events of White Ward happened and then they broke free into the Citadel but everyone started becoming immortal that way and then it happened

[brisk finch]

And refusing to be revived by it? A crime and something that brings you shame
How dare you die

[uncut holly]

Oh the bugs worshipped the Citadel itself.

[brisk finch]

You must work for the Citadel

[uncut holly]

The First Shrine AKA Songclave was a place made by the Weavers to call bugs from the Wastes to work in the Citadel to keep GMS asleep

[ember river]

Every pale being has a lot of soul and can just make more

[ember river]

There's literally no source for that

[twin dragon]

Might've even been Lace's mask, as it fits what she wears

[uncut holly]

I mean we dont know if Radiance has soul or Nightmare Heart so thats a bit of a stretch

[ember river]

Stop making shit up

[cedar skiff]

wait so silk is the bad guy and song is the good one

we figured it out

[ember river]

Radiance runs on essence, and nightmare heart isn't a pale being

[uncut holly]

Us ringing the bell has the Caretaker mention its gonna bring people there, its also the First Shrine

[brisk finch]

Also, the full statue text:

...ilgrim!... ast aside those many sinful hopes for rest ...d reward... remain pure... within our midst... sk for nothing! See... Citadel’s simple stone, bare an... dorned. See h...ain our garb, how sparse o... meal. Know that... excess is sin!Stay vigil... ys, for tho... wretched pilgrims... dare relen... their base desi... Left unpunish... thin our pure chorus... eir seductive sin... pread like flame...

[twin dragon]

And not sure mask maker HAD to make it

[uncut holly]

oh woops wrong thing replied to

[cedar skiff]

wait really how do we know this

[brisk finch]

...Dear... grim... Dark it seems now... et these word... become your guide...Hear our voice... Let it... your own! Give... of yourself... for great Pharloom, for... first-children who bequeath it to us... for our salva... sure to come!

Hark! ...ilgrim! You... climb... our eternal embrace... who stand stru... the threshold... our stark Citadel of stone... kno... true service may now commence.Forget... your weary shell. Forgo... urge to still... arloom commands... give... greatest gift! Join our chor... Raise... shell... voice... and sing!

[twin dragon]

We don't, js saw a comment about it and thought of it

[brisk finch]

And inspect: A rusted statue of a pilgrim.

[ember river]

It's gonna bring people there because it means it's a safe place in the hellhole of the citadel

[cedar skiff]

i mean it is a nice theory

[brisk finch]

(those aren't in order)

[ember river]

He straight up tells us that

[uncut holly]

Yeah but they arent Soul like you said. Higher Being is a status not a type of thing that has tons of soul. Additionalyl Caretaker mentions how the bell will draw in people to the First Shrine upon being rung.

[twin dragon]

But for phantom's mask to feel so out of place

[ember river]

In fact the first sentence is to imply that the ENEMIES will come to kill us because they know it's a place with normal, non haunted people

[twin dragon]

And lace being all covered in white EXCEPT her face

[ember river]

Then thankfully it's just pilgrims

[ember river]

I said pale beings

[brisk finch]

I'm actually shocked Songclave survived All That

I expected an invasion, especially if you didn't give money to the wish wall before some kind of trigger

[uncut holly]

It is a safe place, but people seem to hear the "call" of the Citadel, its mentioned several times by Pilgrims throughout the game, and when questioned about it they seem confused that Hornet hasnt heard it too and doesnt know what their talking about.

It seems they where "called" there somehow, and it isnt through word of mouth

[ember river]

No, the caretaker means the giant bell you just rang is going to tell the few survivors that it's a safe place

[uncut holly]

Many many bugs reference going to the "Citadels Call"

[ember river]

Sometimes you just have to take things literally

[uncut holly]

Not talking about Caretaker

[ember river]

-> Mentions something Caretaker says as proof of some bullshit
-> Not talking about caretaker

[uncut holly]

I mentioned the Pilgrims

[brisk finch]

You know, I wonder if it's got something to do with the seal of binding visible on the bells in the first trailer. They don't show that anymore in the game itself, but if the intend is that you're not just ringing, you're releasing

[uncut holly]

They where strung up probably by GMS

No one else but Widow can string them

It would make sense as the song puts GMS to sleep

[ember river]

Most citadel denizens strung themselves by using silk extensively

[uncut holly]

We dont know about the bells outside.

Im talking about bells

[ember river]

The pilgrims yes, it was Mother Silk

[uncut holly]

Not talking about pilgrims

Responding to Sammy

[craggy bison]

I really hope we get a peek at the "city of steel" someday

[brisk finch]

Can you think of a more specific phrase used than "call"? I can search for dialogue

[brisk finch]

Shale is/was a backer character, so it seems likely, unless they changed their mind and got something else

[brisk finch]

Oh sorry, it's not clear to me which part you're responding to

[uncut holly]

Oh im currently looking for the term "ghostly"

[craggy bison]

Who's shale again i forgot

[brisk finch]

Long nose silver guy

[uncut holly]

Because Hornet calls it a Ghostly call, I think it was also called an "Ethereal" call

[cedar skiff]

so any thoughts on who in the citadels rule introduced the weird silk soul recycling mechanic

[brisk finch]

The big silver enemy in Coral Gorge in the reveal trailer was teased as his ally

[craggy bison]

What about the other steel people? Like the jinn in hk

[brisk finch]

Another one appears in Steel Soul in Skong

[cedar skiff]

it mustve been some normal ass bugs right

that were concerned about silk running out

because iirc theres a bit about silk being extracted from dead bugs and "reused" in other ways

[rustic holly]

yeah its defo the citadel caste

the weavers had no reason to recycle silk they make it anyway

[brisk finch]

When was the last time the term citadel caste was used in marketing?

Or in-game
because I feel like it quietly disappeared?

Unless I'm silly and I completely read over it

[uncut holly]

Hey does anyone know how you can unmask the mask maker?

[ember river]

In game I think the cape maker says it

[brisk finch]

That's not a callout, I'm just deeply interested in how dev changes a product

[spare pendant]

hornet says it a lot

[ember river]

The one in far fields

[brisk finch]

Big attack

Any big source of damage in one go

[uncut holly]

They always look so weird

Hes got the same eyes as the Mask Maker in Hollow Knight

[brisk finch]

Nah they still say Caste, that caste etc
but not "Citadel caste' like a lot of the early material

So it's still socially implied, but it's no longer basically the title that it was

[ember river]

@twin dragon also, phantom's mask doesn't fit lace

[uncut holly]

Huh. Ok

[ember river]

It has this weird serrated shape up top

[uncut holly]

Mask Maker lore. The Mask Maker is only "lucid" without a mask

[daring cargo]

is silk song a prequel or sequel ?

[brisk finch]

I loved that detail, ay

[brisk finch]

Full on sequel

[daring cargo]

ok cool

[brisk finch]

Yes I love it

[ember river]

sequel, and of a specific set of endings

[golden olive]

wuzzat mean

[brisk finch]

I am absolutely stoked about everything, 75h to 100%+ mementos

[ember river]

||It's sealed siblings and it's all hornet's dream||

[brisk finch]

Nooooo

[ember river]

Sorry, sherma is fake

[brisk finch]

Sherma is a top tier character

Gosh like, I know it's not exactly applicable to current lore
But the old maps shown at acmi are making me go feral

[uncut holly]

Faylon was a Weaver consultant

[brisk finch]

what do you mean void cult was there from the start

[uncut holly]

I havent see this lore yet this is good

[brisk finch]

Also, the files have a lot of mentions of Mossblood and Muckblood for the alchemist quests
no lifeblood, yes plasmius

Seeing how this game was changed over the years is just
peak
We ended up with peak and the whole process was peak

[cedar skiff]

i like just how much history pharloom has

theres a ton of different historical periods

[brisk finch]

Now if only they'd properly digitize their sketch books and maps, and release a neat full artbook
no the acmi zine doesn't count that's only 64 pages

[cedar skiff]

in hallownest we really only have void civilization to nothing to pale king

[brisk finch]

So much of its history appears inspired by its actual development (and not just act 3) and I love it so much

[ember river]

More than hallownest

[brisk finch]

it's such a rich world

[ember river]

Pharloom lasted longer too

That's why it is as large as it is

And why its industry is so advanced

[brisk finch]

TBF I do think Hallownest is much larger than we see

We can't enter background structures like shown in City and there's plenty blocked off

[ember river]

Hallownest is bigger, yes, but it's not nearly as large as Pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

What makes you say that

[ember river]

That hallownest is bigger or that pharloom is substantially bigger

[brisk finch]

I don't think we can actually tell that, in-universe, just because of how much we can't see
Real world wise tho, I am in awe of how big Pharloom's map is and how nice exploring it feels
Yes even Swamp and Muckvillage Bilewater and Bilehaven

[sinful nimbus]

That Pharloom is bigger

[ember river]

It has much larger spread out infrastructure, especially industrial, and much more developed systems of ruling and enforcement.
Hallownest was apparently starting off with its industry as well, if we see the crystal mining operations, but it's still a lesser scale to Pharloom's metallurgy

[uncut holly]

Reading the minds of the guys that you pogo off of in Fae Mountain their just like "Glidey Glidey Glidey" I love life! And then you just kill them

[ember river]

The fact that almost every area has a substantial degree of utilitarian infrastructure is what makes me believe that

[brisk finch]

I think it's interesting too that the Citadel was obviously known as the City of Song early on
It's in the maps, early promos and the files
(The Forum is in the files as Citadel Forum so that was added after the name change?)
I wonder what made that change necessary or desired

[cedar skiff]

yeah hornet comments on pharloom being much more advanced and larger than her own kingdom

[ember river]

Well the official name is the Citadel of Song, that's how it's called in the menu

[brisk finch]

High halls was known as "hang", but Choral Chambers was "high halls", so names clearly weren't settled for a bit (fair enough)

[cedar skiff]

the more you piece together the lore the fucking crazier and better it gets

theres a lot of things that easily fly over your head when youre just playing

[lean temple]

Pharloom's advanced metallurgy is also stated to have been facilitated by the geologic activity in the lake of magma

[brisk finch]

Files label it as just Citadel, whereas everything else gets a full name
CITY OF SONG Citadel
SWAMP Bilewater
etc

[cedar skiff]

it really takes sitting down to be able to view and appreciate it all

[brisk finch]

BATHHOUSE CitadelSpa

BONECHURCH Ruined Chaple
The whole shebang

[cedar skiff]

also speak of the bathhouse whats up with weird silk water

[brisk finch]

Right? I made a joke to a friend in High Halls that Back In MY Day white water used to heal you
And then I found the spa

[ember river]

It is facilitated, yes, I didn't say it had it as hard as Hallownest, but I'd say it did eventually grow larger

[brisk finch]

(btw, Mount Fay is PEAK
and i fully agree with that)

The Mist was DUST_MAZE, which I feel is interesting

[ember river]

The cavern seems much more open than the one Hallownest was set so they also had it easier that way

[cedar skiff]

i like the implication that pharloom was submerged under water way way back

or at least in part

blasted steps just gave me that vibe

[brisk finch]

I;m assuming that's how Coral was able to exist, for a while

Because that area is still canon

The remains of the water era thrived there, until the Citadel choked it out

[uncut holly]

So Faylon in with politics, does not like GMS, and is making a bet with you giving you the fae down cloak to help you out against them.

[rustic holly]

being underwater would explain the marrow, sands of karak and blasted steps all in one

[uncut holly]

I guess they would rather Hornet be in the position than GMS

[ember river]

I'm still doubtful that it was the citadel

If it is confirmed I'd like to see it

[cedar skiff]

i think the water natuarally dried out over time

but maybe the citade fucking around accelerated the natural process

[brisk finch]

I'm mainly basing that on Verdania and Muck and Yuck City

You're right that I don't recall Coral ever specifically having the Citadel pointed to as its source of evil, but it does fit thematically

[cedar skiff]

wait where does that era even fit timeline wise

i mean when the "dreamers" were still alive and kicking

[brisk finch]

Did you treat with the creature upon the summit?Your legged ancestors once found her company compelling, enough to build their chambers and their calling device at the height of this perilous peak.
I have paid my respects, and been granted her favour. Her down now fills my cloak, and does much to ward against the frost of these heights.
To pass something so precious... That’s a mighty gift you’ve been given. Seems she’s thrown her lot in with you.I’d not have guessed her so opposed to our threaded monarch, but then she too must have sensed the wretched state of things, and the harsher change to come.

[ember river]

I firstly assumed Verdania was threatened by the Citadel into giving one of the two princes as a template for the cog dancers, then it fell to natural causes anyways, since it seems to have been a cavein, though that's probably not the implication

[brisk finch]

Wait... legged ancestors?? (This is Mask Maker)

[ember river]

When Silk was still asleep

[brisk finch]

I don't think the other dancer is a prince, unless the title was given as Green Prince's lover

Unless I'm really off base right now

[ember river]

Isn't it mentioned that the clover dancers were the two princes of verdania?

[cedar skiff]

yeah taht makes sense

yes they were

[ember river]

Yeah dual princes of old verdania

[mild girder]

on everybodys soul THIS will be important in the future

[brisk finch]

Did I memoryhole that.

[sinful nimbus]

That's not really true

Mount Fay, Bonelands, Mosslands, Bilelands, etc don't have much infastructure and the infastructure itself is quite poorly maintained

[brisk finch]

Together we ruled...
The myth we made... by grace... by blade...All bowed before we princes green...

[cedar skiff]

no it really is lol hornet explicitly points it out

[verbal jacinth]

Hey, hear me out on this

[brisk finch]

yep no I memoryholed it

[cedar skiff]

that pharloom is more advanced than hallownest ever was

[verbal jacinth]

Coral tower ---> Sands of Karak
Crust king Khann - Tyrant
Ozymandias?
😳

[cedar skiff]

hornet might just be the most reliable narrator ever

[sinful nimbus]

Hallownest also had crazy enforcement

[brisk finch]

TBF "advanced" and "big" aren't the same thing

[sinful nimbus]

You can't go five seconds in CoT without seeing a guard

[ember river]

Mount Fay wasn't settled by the citadel at any point, the bilelands are used as a giant dumpster and the bonelands/mosslands are the entrance, but you really don't have anything like greymoor in Hallownest

[ember river]

You don't see any prisons that I remember, though, or any mention of judgement other than xero

[rocky smelt]

i forgot where but one of the needolin memory dialouge says alone against the pale light for the coral guys

[sinful nimbus]

Prisons probably did exist nonetheless though

[ember river]

Maybe the pale king was that powerful and kept everyone peaceful

[ember river]

They most likely did, yes

[cedar skiff]

true but even if we include the white palace pharloom is larger

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not sure what your point is with Greymoor

[cedar skiff]

is the citadel larger than the white palace though

[sinful nimbus]

Its a dump full of slaves

[desert furnace]

Was that a pigeon on mount fay

[ember river]

Greymoor used to be more prosperous, did it not?

[sinful nimbus]

Sure but so did Hallownest settlements

[rocky smelt]

and the blasted steps which are a citadel area replaced the coral gorge so i definitely think the citadel is what caused Khans fall

[ember river]

It's still a hub for collecting silk from the citadel, part of their own system

[cedar skiff]

wasnt greymoor a primary place for working through silk

[brisk finch]

They're called the Judge Steps in the files, and the Judge is often referred to as Coral Judge

[cedar skiff]

a lot of the dirty work was separated across pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Well sure Hallownest doesn't have anything like that but idk why it would need to

They never bothered with Silk because they weren't idiots

[ember river]

It doesn't, I'm not saying pharloom being larger or more industrialized is a good thing

[cedar skiff]

you only really see the more inventive advanced stuff up in the citadel, like the cogworks, whiteward and the vaults. all the manual labour besides the upkeep of the citadel within itself (underworks) is around pharloom

[brisk finch]

There's also just a lot of stuff like this

[rocky smelt]

u can also see on the maps at Acmi that they replaced the coral gorge with the blasted steps pretty late in development

[cedar skiff]

hallownest didnt have that really

[ember river]

But I'd say it is larger

[brisk finch]

Yep, genuinely seems like the meta and lore reasons are basically the same here

[sinful nimbus]

Why though

[verbal jacinth]

I still think Khann is like Ozymandias, him being a tyrant being the reason he and his place fell to shit

[sinful nimbus]

"Pharloom metallurgy is more advanced and it has a ton of slaves therefore the kingdom was bigger"

[cedar skiff]

i dont even understand why it matters

[brisk finch]

The Coral Gorge is an old area that does not fit within the Citadel's narrow view of what is right and proper, and so it is slowly lef to die
It was also a very bright area that was created early but did not fit in with the world TC had created around it, and so it died
Only a memory gets to remain

[cedar skiff]

pharloom is just bigger

[ember river]

Again, they had acess to more metallurgy, larger workforce and probably time

Also I hate to point out the obvious but the citadel is a legitimate megastructure
It's just a matter of how much volume something occupied, I'm not calling hallownest a backwards pit of savages or anything

[cedar skiff]

the citadel had a wider rule of pharloom than the pk ever had of hallownest as well

[rocky smelt]

i mean idk the evidence in game kinda points to GMS being the cause, and his armies seemed to be super devoted to him

[sinful nimbus]

Hallownest had an insane workforce though?

[cedar skiff]

the citadel controls a ton of parts while the pk could only form an uneasy truce with parts like the deepnest and mantis tribe

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing indicates they had a smaller workforce than Pharloom

[verbal jacinth]

What caused all the sand to dry out his forest is the issue here
Where did all the sand come from, why did it start to flow into his once lush area
Why he a tyrant at all??? :(

[brisk finch]

Ye because the Citadel left everything not It to die. The PK was willing to ally

[sinful nimbus]

Greenpath Deepnest and the Hive are the only real outliers that come to mind

[brisk finch]

The sand was presumably under the water

[cedar skiff]

the citadel just took over everything regardless

[verbal jacinth]

yknow what touche there, but what if it wasnt D:

[cedar skiff]

and its not like the pk didnt try to do that either (eyeing the deepnest tram)

[sinful nimbus]

They didn't though

[twin dragon]

Weird convenient ass mask to have laying around then

[verbal jacinth]

GMS IS a pale being yes?

[brisk finch]

Blackwyrm, duh XD

[cedar skiff]

they literally had remaints everywhere though

[desert furnace]

Bird no diff

[verbal jacinth]

but she isnt a Wyrm, so she cant really "Pull bugs into her thrall"

[cedar skiff]

they literally dug into the abyss

hallownest had a direct entry to the abyss due to the remaints of the ancient civilization, the citadel had to dig its way in

these fuckers did not play around

[lean temple]

Yes

[rocky smelt]

im p sure they only ever call him tyrant in the achievment name

[twin dragon]

True

[ember river]

The amount of workers you find and the simple amount of worker types you'd require to optimize all the various industrial zones they have

[verbal jacinth]

Who said it was the citadel
It was probably just the weavers, and the diving bell just so happened to go down to the abyss

[twin dragon]

Though what motivated phantom to use a mask is not explained

[brisk finch]

If we're counting ancient civs as distinct, it's hard to say how much the current Citadel can claim, considering the Weavers

[cedar skiff]

well the entry to the abyss is through the underworks

[lavish needle]

What mask does ?

[golden olive]

for aura since masks dont do anything

[rustic holly]

iirc it was stated most feared khann's reign

[verbal jacinth]

Deep docks u mean?

[cedar skiff]

an attempt was made, also the weavers had their own remaints

yeah deep docks i meant mb

[verbal jacinth]

all good

[twin dragon]

phantom covers her face in the bossfight

[verbal jacinth]

maybe the diving bell wasnt supposed to go down to the abyss, namely why it broke on the way down

[cedar skiff]

the weavers and the citadel bugs arent the same

[lavish needle]

Yeah but is it for a specific reason or just to cover her face

[twin dragon]

I think theres a reason for that still

[brisk finch]

Seeing as it broke immediately, that's kind of what I assumed

[lean temple]

That's not really a Wyrm specifc thing. Radiance can control people, so can GMS. Unn had worshippers too. And you can argue all those are "in the thrall" of these higher beings. What Mister Mushroom is saying is that Wyrms instinctively like to create kingdoms and rule

[brisk finch]

The diving bell, I mean

[verbal jacinth]

unless maybe pharloom was messing with the abyss being why the weavers are down there..

[cedar skiff]

oh maybe but honestly we dont have an explicit reason. maybe they did just need more resources

[twin dragon]

We don't know, i assume because she's a reject because of how badly gms messed her up, or because of decay

[cedar skiff]

the weavers just were doing their own bs anyway

[verbal jacinth]

CONTROL, is the difference. Wyrms seemingly just cause worship and higher thought
Radiance infects, GMS puppets. Wyrms dont seem to do either of those 2 things.

[golden olive]

i thought that too but masks dont really do anything, it could've been a gift ig. in reality im pretty sure the point of the mask is to help show how old and decrepit phantom is

[cedar skiff]

gms never outright infected. the citadel bugs did that shit to themselves

[sinful nimbus]

Enemies aren't really an accurate way to determine that because of gameplay

[lean temple]

Unn creates life that worships her and she isn't malicious

[verbal jacinth]

the pale king isnt malicious either really

[cedar skiff]

i dont think she seeked worship either while she was asleep, they were just naturally inclined to do so after the weavers left

[sinful nimbus]

Its not like they made a separate enemy for each job or whatever, there are a bunch of husks and a lot of them presumably had jobs

[light saddle]

Unn and even Radiance for a long while didn’t seem to control their followers

[ember river]

I know it's inconsistent but it's what we got
I still don't see why you're so defensive about hallownest being bigger for some reason but it's meaningless so whatever

[verbal jacinth]

wdym hallownest being bigger 😭

It so clearly isnt

[ember river]

I know

[cedar skiff]

honestly, maybe the diving bell was made while the weavers were still ruling and thats how they got down there in the first place

there was that tiny period where regular bugs worshiped weavers

[verbal jacinth]

the weavers seem to know about void so
mayeb they found their own way in

[sinful nimbus]

You said something I disagreed with it isn't very deep

[lavish needle]

Phantom was a prototype for lace ?

[sinful nimbus]

The ol "Why do you care so much" response

[edgy nebula]

whats the big face on the side of the upper cave room in the marrow?

[brisk finch]

They're sisters and Phantom is the failed one, so in a way, ye

[rocky smelt]

the snails say that bugs lived in fear of his strength, but they dont outright call him a tyrant or anything. Presumably it was just a highly militarized nation so non combat bugs didnt fit in every well

[cedar skiff]

thats what im wondering about because there really only is one way in. i doubt team cherry wouldnt include another if it existed because they do story before gameplay

[twin dragon]

Seems to be, judging by her thoughts and what she seemingly said to lace

[lavish needle]

It’s the exit of the witch’s chapel

[cedar skiff]

maybe that entrance was just a remain from the weaver times and the bugs intended to use the diving bell for expeditions

[verbal jacinth]

The abyss seemingly CAN BE BURROWED THROUGH

so maybe they figured it out that way

[brisk finch]

....huh

[verbal jacinth]

built a weavenest down there but got driven out of it

[cedar skiff]

but yeah back to my original point the citadel had itself wrapped around so much of pharloom

[brisk finch]

Why is this early station already called Tower

[verbal jacinth]

doesnt seem like the void is picky about who it kills

[brisk finch]

and not Gorge like the other references

[verbal jacinth]

i wish coral ...."forest" was still a thing, it looked gorgeous :(

[ember river]

Well, why do you think Hallownest is bigger

[brisk finch]

I'm confused as to why this old text is calling it a tower XD was there a phase of dev where the tower was real and had a bell station like??

[rocky smelt]

i really wish they hadnt cut it man they coudve done a lost verdania type thing with it

[lavish needle]

Is there a video who explain the lore of the game ?

[verbal jacinth]

couldve started as a gorge, then changed to a tower, then changed to sands of karak
you never know

[cedar skiff]

not yet

itll take a while before an actually good one comes out

[verbal jacinth]

Give mossbag a few months

[sinful nimbus]

There's no real reason to think that either

[cedar skiff]

most of the ones out right now i dont really trust because theyre likely rushed and new information is being found rapidly so they become outdated pretty quick

[verbal jacinth]

The kingdoms could literally be equally sized, if you exclude the citadel which is bugmade
find a middleground here

[pale valve]

has anybody else noticed the really cool detail that the Fourth Chorus was taken down by the Seamstress?

[lavish needle]

Yeah so basically what is the point of the « game » ? I mean why MS is purely evil

[cedar skiff]

she isnt theres a lot of nuance

[pale valve]

you can see a pin in its neck before it starts up again

[verbal jacinth]

GMS might not even be evil

[brisk finch]

As it stands, our hearts are

1. a tough miniboss+ the heart boss
2. a small arena+ a tough as nails heart boss
3. many arenas+ an easy heart boss
4. a mini area+ a heart boss
   I think they just wanted variety

[cedar skiff]

the true ending also literally makes the point that she isnt just this evil driving force

[sinful nimbus]

GMS is definitely evil

[cedar skiff]

if gms is truly evil then so is the pk

[sinful nimbus]

Mass slavery is bad
Kidnapping people is bad

[lavish needle]

Yeah bcs she send « silk » to hornet to save herself and lace right ?

[verbal jacinth]

she might just be driven by yknow
Lace

[sinful nimbus]

He didn't really do anything like GMS though

[cedar skiff]

what did gms do?

[sinful nimbus]

The haunting

[verbal jacinth]

She puppeteered an entire kingdom

[sinful nimbus]

She also kidnapped a buncha weavers

[verbal jacinth]

but at the same time probably just did it for family sake

[cedar skiff]

because at first i also thought gms was responsible for a lot of the things that the weavers and citadel bugs were actually responsible for

[verbal jacinth]

Pale King isnt evil and you know that by a mile

[pale valve]

the infection was a separate force from the Pale King, GMS is like if the Pale King was the infection

[sinful nimbus]

The citadel is under the control of GMS by the time the game starts

Also stuff like ruining Verdania was her doing

[verbal jacinth]

what wqould pharloom have been like if she didnt show up

a nice place, put it simply

[pale valve]

so was GMS always there? or when did she show up

[ember river]

I think it's stated that it was the "means to keep her asleep"

Or so is it mentioned

[verbal jacinth]

maybe it was the weavers' doing
maybe she was there the whole time

[cedar skiff]

i dont think shes any less "evil" than the pale king

[lavish needle]

But does pharloom NEED silk ?

[cedar skiff]

its nuanced

[sinful nimbus]

What did PK do that could be considered evil

[verbal jacinth]

it doesnt seem to, no

[brisk finch]

A deeply messed up society with a strict social hierarchie and mistreatment of many workers
And some zombies
but not the total mess it becomes

[brisk finch]

Baby killin'

[verbal jacinth]

the weavers used silk

then the weavers left

maybe thats what GMS is there for, to fill their plaxce

[ember river]

PK wasn't evil as much as he was a fool in charge of a LOT

[brisk finch]

The weavers fled tho

[wooden sphinx]

trolley problem baby killing

[verbal jacinth]

and all died out like a bunch of wankers >:(

[sinful nimbus]

That was a trolley problem though

What PK did was sacrifice a great amount of people in an attempt to save the lives of far more people

What GMS did was sacrifice a great amount of people to save one person

[wooden sphinx]

No cost too great

[brisk finch]

That's how I see it. He made a horrific choice, but there was no malice

[vivid kernel]

pharloom wouldn't even exist without GMS, like hallownest wouldn't exist without the pale king

[pale valve]

so what was the motive for GMS anyway?

[verbal jacinth]

Wyrms might just naturally be stupid like that

[rocky smelt]

i just think they coudve done more with Khann specifically, with nyleth there isnt really anything interesting that would come up in a memory level as shellwood is still intact, similar story with karmelita, the only difference is there were a lot more Skarrs in her prime. But with Khann his whole area is destroyed same as with verdania

[brisk finch]

Also, I do believe that he believed the hollow business
Even if it's been disproven now

[lavish needle]

I got a question about HK (not silksong)

I’ve already seen video about the lore but I wanna know if there is videos about specific characters ? To know more of them

[verbal jacinth]

Wyrms might just not give a shit about others if it means their kingdoms, aka their purpose, stands true
GMS on the other hand is just there to be a twat

[ember river]

I think he wouldn't accept his own foresight and that drove him erratic

[vivid kernel]

yes, he had full confidence that the vessels were hollow and his plan would work

[ember river]

Keep in mind if his kingdom would have been truly eternal an infinite amount of bugs would have benefited from a finite, albeit extremely large amount of death and destruction

[brisk finch]

It wouldn't surprise me if he got a reverse hive update
Boss gets an area, instead of an area getting a boss
Or the queen idea I've seen floated around

[ember river]

But it wasn't so there's that

[sinful nimbus]

She wants a child

She created the weavers but the weavers ditched her
She created Phantom but then discarded it
Then she created Lace and that's who she cares about for most of the story

[verbal jacinth]

Pale Wyrm is a self centered idiot
GMS is just a protective mother

Both are bad but one is worse than the other

[rocky smelt]

Queen idea? mind telling me what thats about?

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King was smart

[lavish needle]

Why the weaver ditch her ? And all of that just for a child ? Lol

[verbal jacinth]

he certainly didnt seem it

[sinful nimbus]

His only crime was thinking his kingdom could last forever

[cedar skiff]

@lavish needle anyways heres my short shitty explanation (and again pretty much my own interpretation from what i gathered from the game and otherwise community interpretations i liked). gms made the weavers, they just chilled for a while, eventually the weavers wanted more "power", tried to seal away gms, for some reason beyond me fucked off to other kingdoms. eventually even more regular bugs came to pharloom and began worshipping gms and just silk in general, making this fanatic religion, which caused the pharloom needing silk economy, gms wasnt producing any/as much and they needed it as they worshipped it (and even augemneted themselves with it to extend their lifespan). eventually gms wakes up and in a rage does the haunting and gets hornet kidnapped at some point in her attempt to get back the weavers. some people in chat are likely gonna correct some of my mistakes ^_^

[brisk finch]

Crust King=combat focused, so his memory is just a combat tower
if we find his queen in a dlc, we could get a Verdania section

[pale valve]

why did she start the haunting though?

[lavish needle]

But she hasn’t created all weaver right ? Since hornet isn’t her daughter technically

[ember river]

Nah, GMS is worse

[verbal jacinth]

this needs to be answered one way or another

[brisk finch]

Hornet is her granddaughter

[verbal jacinth]

cuz its kinda just gonna drive people crazy if they cant figure out why she did it

[ember river]

GMS wanted total obedience and that's reflected on the weavers

[sinful nimbus]

They seemed to not like being loyal to her

[cedar skiff]

the weavers did go to other places

[verbal jacinth]

maybe she works like the Wyrms too

[ember river]

She created the weaver species

[rocky smelt]

that could be cool, i wonder if they're gonna use that weird ledge above coral tower for something

[verbal jacinth]

she pulled bugs into her thrall, just in a much more dangerous manner

[brisk finch]

She created an eternal child because the elder one was a failure
She loves her but she deeply fails her
Thematically it's all there

[ember river]

Higher beings work pretty similarly

[vivid kernel]

because they found out that GMS lied about their origins, and she may have been using them to increase her own power (harvesting silk)

[lavish needle]

Thanks for the explanation

[verbal jacinth]

maybe thats what Pale beings literally DO

they force bugs to worship them and give them purpose

[sinful nimbus]

GMS created Herrah by modifying a Pharlid, Herrah went on to birth Hornet. In a sense GMS is her Grandmother

[verbal jacinth]

even if it means they have to die for it

[ember river]

The pale king seems unique since he didn't uplift any particular species as his own, but pretty much everyone around him

[brisk finch]

The bugs of the kingdom may as well be her children, which makes them hers
They have Her silk
She can make them get back up, and so they shall

[cedar skiff]

lol of course. its kinda hard to gather everyhing as this story timeline is much larger than hollow knights but theres a ton of super interesting details i didnt go into for the sake of keeping it as broad as possible

[wooden sphinx]

Pale king didnt really force anyone

[pale valve]

wasn't that Sinner's memory?

[ember river]

So the Radiance had the moths as her worshippers, Unn had the mosskind

[pale valve]

of their creation?

[vivid kernel]

yes, it's in their nature to want to rule and be worshipped

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[ember river]

GMS had the weavers

[verbal jacinth]

well he did convince a lot of people

he convinced an entire race of moths to abandon their own higher being

[ember river]

The Pale King however just grabbed everyone he saw

[lavish needle]

And I have another question…sorry I’m a little dumb

What’s the difference between weaver and species like phantom or lace ? I know there are like 100% silk but isn’t that the same for weaver ?

[sinful nimbus]

Well the moths deciding to ditch Rad was their decision

[vivid kernel]

of the creation of all weavers! they were all created that way

[verbal jacinth]

Weavers seem to be more bug than silk
Theyre spiders after all

[brisk finch]

Ye but the people who wanted their independence got to keep it
Deepnest and the Hive were not harmed by the Pale King

[ember river]

Phantom or Lace are made of silk, weavers are just uplifted bugs

[sinful nimbus]

All of PK's followers were willing it seems

[lucid pasture]

weavers are evolved spiders, lace and phantom are entirely created by GMS

[vivid kernel]

fungal wastes and the mantis tribe too

[brisk finch]

Exactly

[lavish needle]

Ok ok

[brisk finch]

PK made allies, GSM made subjects

[verbal jacinth]

isnt it all but confirmed that Weavers were the founders of deepnest?

[brisk finch]

And destroyed what she could not have

[sinful nimbus]

No

[verbal jacinth]

Maybe they just continued worshiping silk down there

[ember river]

The mantis tribe allied themselves with the Pale King after he beat the lords, wasn't that the lore?

[light saddle]

The moths are described as fickle, and Seer does place the blame squarely on them. I’m inclined to think that the Pale King didn’t really try to convert them. Maybe they just saw his light and the grand city he erected and that was enough to convince them.

[brisk finch]

I don't think Hallownest weavers worship silk

[wooden sphinx]

there was higher being sire who ruled deepnest

[brisk finch]

They produce it

[vivid kernel]

but the weavers abandoned GMS, that's why they left pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Deepnest was mostly regular spiders not weavers

[ember river]

Silk is a tool to them

[rocky smelt]

thought they just made an agreement that the tribe would be chill with the pk as long as they stopped deepnest creatures from getting into hallownest

[verbal jacinth]

We never got to see who that was did we

[sinful nimbus]

Until Herrah it was also ruled by non-weavers

[ember river]

Only bugs who cannot produce it seek it desperately and worship its sources

[vivid kernel]

he's talking abt grand mother silk lol

[verbal jacinth]

The ruler of deepnest is just, completely Obscure

[cedar skiff]

isnt a popular theory that the sire is/is in the weird trilobite contraption

[brisk finch]

Ye but that makes less sense. They fled her, it's in the text

[lean temple]

PK made a truce with them but they never accepted him to reign over them. There's also no source saying he defeated the lords, and tbh he could probably vaporise them if he wanted to.

[vivid kernel]

yep exactly

[verbal jacinth]

Why would a bunch of spiders worship a trilobite

[ember river]

Yeah, pretty much, but I'm thinking if it's confirmed that the Pale King did fight the lords

[ember river]

This is what I wanted to hear, thanks

[wooden sphinx]

i kinda hope we gonna see Deepnest Sire in Silksong DLCs

[lean temple]

Maybe a horse shoe crab which are related to spiders iirc

[cedar skiff]

no idea maybe hes just in it and the contraption looked fucking badass so they made it look that way

[ember river]

Isn't he dead before hornet was even born?

[verbal jacinth]

id worship a lord if he wore a badass trilobite costume

[lavish needle]

And what’s the point of pilgrim ?they just want to be forgiven about their sins? (Blasphemous vibes)

[cedar skiff]

yah i doubt the sire was alive when hornet was we definetly wouldve seen him in the red memory

[ember river]

They want to reach the citadel because it's the most holy place where holy people go

[cedar skiff]

also makes no sense for herrah to make a child with the pk if she could have done it with that elusive sire

[brisk finch]

They are Tained and Bad and must go to the Citadel to be Good, basic religious stuff

[cedar skiff]

yeah theyre just religious fanatics

[brisk finch]

tbf Eva shows how complicated that can get

[verbal jacinth]

he was fucking DEAD >:(

[cedar skiff]

they worship the citadel and think itll cleanse them of their sins and make their lives awesome or whatevs

[ember river]

The deepnest king was dead

[vivid kernel]

i feel like the trilobite is a sort of "protection chamber" or healing tool for the deepnest sire, no evidence tho

[lavish needle]

Alright so that’s why sinners road is literally the path you take to avoid the judge right ?

[brisk finch]

If I Work I will go to heaven be useful and good

[ember river]

Was he not

[cedar skiff]

yep

[lyric rose]

How deep really is the abyss in Pharloom?

[verbal jacinth]

Hollow knight lore is complicated man :(

[lyric rose]

Like how far do we rise in the escape sequence?

[vivid kernel]

i also believe herrah had hornet with the pale king as an alliance between deepnest and hallownest, like what happened in medieval times

[ember river]

You fight the best long pin user in pharloom and since he's alive nobody has gotten past him apparently

[cedar skiff]

not as deep as in hallownest for sure

[lavish needle]

So much lol but I love it…and don’t understand anything by myself

[verbal jacinth]

the ambiguity is what makes it fun

[cedar skiff]

i dont think thats ever stated anywhere

[lyric rose]

Escape sequence tho

[ember river]

Also I think they'd just kill you if they found out you infiltrated from the organs, or put you to work forever

[verbal jacinth]

if it was all just spat out in your face it wouldnt be interesting

[cedar skiff]

well not all of it is abyss. a lot of it is just lava inbetween stuff

[verbal jacinth]

but its still super complicated

[lavish needle]

No ambiguity if you understand nothing at all

[vivid kernel]

sure, but its my headcanon >:) i don't think any motive is explicitly stated right

[ember river]

She had hornet with the Pale King as part of the agreement of her becoming a Dreamer

[verbal jacinth]

Mossbag is my prophet atp

[cedar skiff]

i mean dont get me wrong if its a hc its cool but otherwise unless i had a gap in my memory

[lyric rose]

If you look at the map during the escape it still says the abyss

[verbal jacinth]

im waiting on him to make a lore video on silksong, then shall my third eye open

[cedar skiff]

the pk wanted a dreamer and herrah wanted a child

thats all we have of motives in canon

[vivid kernel]

thats right nvm then lol

[lyric rose]

In case y’all didn’t realize the reason the lava rises in the abyss sequence is because of the rock that we dislodge.

[cedar skiff]

cant wait for the mossbag silksong video so i can point and go heh i already figured that out

[brisk finch]

Knowing now that Herrah did actually get to raise Hornet for a bit makes it click into place a bit more for me

[cedar skiff]

i watched his everything we know about silksong video after finishing the game just to see how far off his speculations wer

[verbal jacinth]

Fuck this chat
Figure it out on your own, then you can feel like a god amongst men

[brisk finch]

That always confused me a bit

[cedar skiff]

yess its beautiful she loved her

[brisk finch]

I always wondered if she wanted a child or an heir
And now we know :((

[nimble vault]

I hope it's 4 hours long 🙏🏾

[lavish needle]

Do we know how far pharloom is from hallownbest ? Bcs the surface looks the same ngl… and why did they captured hornet if they got so much weavers 😭

[light saddle]

Well, actually there’s some in-game merit to this. We do know there were at least some plans to build into Deepnest (regardless if they went through or not). Plus what appears to be shipments of silk to the White Palace.

[verbal jacinth]

3 hours of recaps and jokes

[cedar skiff]

im a firm believer that hornet didnt believe that until facing the red memory. i think all those memories are ones hornet had repressed

[vivid kernel]

herrah was a good mother lowkey

[ember river]

They don't have weavers

[brisk finch]

The weavers they kidnapped weren't full blood
Hornet is the most full blooded

At half

[cedar skiff]

im so glad the heir crowd was disproven i was always against that theory for no other reason than i think the other options nicer 💔

[lavish needle]

Me and my trash lvl in English be like :

[ember river]

Coincidentally, and probably intentionally, all the noted weavers add up to 1 full weaver

[brisk finch]

I thought it made logical sense but the heart wants what the heart wants

[ember river]

1/8+1/8+1/4+1/2

[verbal jacinth]

never has a more true statement been made
Anyway, have fun fellas
adios

[lean temple]

Definitely child. Herrah tells Hornet not to bother much with how the Weavers want Hornet to become queen and instead choose her own path.

[brisk finch]

I wonder if that's why GSM breaks through the cocoon when Hornet gets there

[brisk finch]

Yeah I loved the memory

[lavish needle]

Widow and first sinner ? Except I think if she is named « first sinner » she doesn’t stand with MS

[ember river]

I'm not sure, but it could be

[lavish needle]

Subtitiles coming in clutch

[cedar skiff]

i mean it is kind nof partially true. it seems the general weaver crowd wanted a heir but herrah herself had truly just loved hornet

[vivid kernel]

yeah, they were desperately looking for a weaver to sustain gms

[ember river]

First Sinner is like the ones in the shrines, in a similar state

[brisk finch]

Eh, i was almost more concerned with Herrah's motivation XD

[ember river]

Apparently alive but constrained

[cedar skiff]

man this game has so much more character and heart than hk i adore it (again not in a negative manner more in a oh my god team cherry upped themselves so hard compliment way)

[uncut holly]

The robots singing is hellish, but they seem to just be speaking their directive of watching keeping the weavers secrets obeying their laws and waiting for their return

[cedar skiff]

lace and hornet and their dynamic is so nicely woven (lol lol lol lol)

[brisk finch]

Yeah I mean specifically if the final piece for a "full weaver" arriving was the final straw

[ember river]

My belief is that they are the "dead" weavers mentioned in the harp

[vivid kernel]

fr, the story hits much harder

[lavish needle]

Do we have any ant lore ? Like they are pretty similar to mantis for hk

[brisk finch]

Hollow Knight is such a... detached adventure for the most part
Yes yes we all love Myla and Quirrel but Skong by comparison is just so full of life

[ember river]

They are pretty similar to a certain extent, yes

[cedar skiff]

yesss the atmosphere is so much more alive

which i mean for hk its intentional. it is a dead kingdom more than a haunted one

[brisk finch]

I desperately need a dlc that lets me fix up Bellhart and the survivor's camp

[light saddle]

I think it speaks volumes that in her dream nail dialogue, she says for child instead of for heir

[brisk finch]

HK is great at what it wants to do

[lavish needle]

Hollow knight is a dead kingdom so that’s make sense

[cedar skiff]

EXACLTYYY

i never wanted an epilogue dlc for hk but silksong has me yearning

[lavish needle]

I need a dlc about trobbio troupe (lemme dream )

[cedar skiff]

at least a shakra comic

[brisk finch]

It doesn't even need to be an epilogue if they want to stick to act 3 as the finale
just... a little something

[cedar skiff]

i do want trobbio lore hes cool

[brisk finch]

Pavo is so sad...

Trobbio @ Survivor Camp when

[lean temple]

Also "give all, for her, fair bargain made"

[cedar skiff]

his fight made had me giddy and laughing the entire time

him playing dead is such a good fucking bit

[brisk finch]

I was so happy to see Tormented

So much fun

[lavish needle]

« Just a grim copy 🤓 «  NO MY GOAT TROBBIO IS MORE THAN THAT

[vivid kernel]

wild take: trobbio will be how you refight bosses by "reenacting" the battles

[rocky smelt]

there are some npcs that feel like they should have more interactions like Trobbio and Gilly, their "endings" dont rlly feel complete to me

[light saddle]

I would love that so much

[cedar skiff]

lol thatd be fun as fuck

[brisk finch]

And Pilby

[cedar skiff]

yesterday someone brought up how the newly brought up concept of going back in memories will be silksongs boss rush

[dapper willow]

I want to talk to trobio

[brisk finch]

Pilby literally doesn't have an ending

[tawdry flare]

it's so peak...

[brisk finch]

If he survives the Skull Tyrant attack, he still just disappears after Pilgrim's Rest

[rocky smelt]

true i forgot abt him, does he show up anywhere after pilgrims rest or nah?

[lavish needle]

Wait so basically trobbio first encounter want to entertain his public to think of other things than the fate of pharloom and second encounter is just him being depressed ?

[vivid kernel]

does second sentinel have an ending?

[brisk finch]

First thing I checked, but nope

[rocky smelt]

ok yeah thats what i thought

[cedar skiff]

maybe hot take i dont want to see the grimm troupe

[brisk finch]

Altho, fun fact: if you go back to the reveal trailer, you can see him die

That was always planned

[rocky smelt]

also that damn gate in Karmelita's chambers

[cedar skiff]

a lot of characters have loose endings

[dapper willow]

he continues protecting the first shrine

[lean temple]

Yeah what IS that?

[brisk finch]

I've convinced myself that it's there for the sake of the memory consistency, just so I don't go insane

[cedar skiff]

i like it more than how a lot of the hk characters ended (in demise primarily)

allows me to at least imagine them doing well

[tawdry flare]

The door to the rest of her house leave her alone 💔

[rocky smelt]

thought u had to do something with gilly or all the "mottled" Skarr ants but could never get it open

[brisk finch]

I wonder if I'm not coping at the dlc they're working on is an act 4

[brisk finch]

Gilly does have that quest, which was a nice acknowledgement of her existence

[lavish needle]

I know something went wrong when the fight with the 2 boss in karak sand ended when only 1 was defeated…

[cedar skiff]

2025 nuclear family shakra hornet lace and woke dog bellbeast

[vivid kernel]

do they know?

[dapper willow]

what happens to Pinstress
Does she die actually?
I never saw her in her house after beating her ass in the mountain

[rocky smelt]

yup and then she just poofs afterwards

[brisk finch]

Huntress too

[lavish needle]

Probably

[vivid kernel]

also adopted shakra

[brisk finch]

She has a death ending but if she lives she's just... not there

[dapper willow]

yesh
Maybe they have tea together with sentinel

[tawdry flare]

No it’s Hornet and Shakra are married and adopted Lace

[brisk finch]

SENTINEL TOO

WHY IS THERE NOTHING IN ACT 3 FOR THEM SPECIFICALLY

[lean temple]

It's questionable if the conditions are right for them to show up. Pharloom is not dead and in Act 3 it is "saved" so I don't think the conditions would be right for them to appear.

[cedar skiff]

honestly sherma taking up all responsibilty in songclave is so sad man

[vivid kernel]

adopted sherma oops confused the name

[quartz plinth]

I have gotten the true ending of the game, so like, why was ||Herrah wearing red on Hornet's flashback, why is her dreamer outfit more revealing than her Memory outfit like, is she just naked as a dreamer??????||

[brisk finch]

Actually, quick question

[rocky smelt]

doesnt sentinel still show up in the halls in act 3?

[tawdry flare]

I fought them in Act 3 so

[brisk finch]

Does anyone here know what the files could mean with uh
Mimic Styx?

[cedar skiff]

yeah exactly, if we saw them it wouldnt mean any good. thats why i dont want it

[vivid kernel]

fr, he's just a kid

[brisk finch]

or well
Mimic Grubfarmer, but that's Styx

[rocky smelt]

skyx prolly the steel soul npc

[lucid pasture]

pintress and huntress both definitely do not die. huntress actually can die if you dont do her sidequest, but if yoh do it she just disappear which implies she is alive. Theres no reason to believe pinstress died

[brisk finch]

No, they're the Huntress lookalike

[rocky smelt]

or whatever his name is its something like that

[brisk finch]

Yeah I meant, why does she disappear

If she dies, it makes sense. Where does she go if she lives

[cedar skiff]

god broodfeast is such a quest

[lucid pasture]

she goes hunt idk

[cedar skiff]

basically sums up the whole damn game

[lucid pasture]

Lol

[rocky smelt]

ik im saying that thing in the files is probably skyx, theres a replacement npc for styx in steelsoul its some weird thing that looks like styx but styx is dead

[lean temple]

Ik one of the Steel Soul NPCs and she doesn't appear to be a Styx replacement

[dapper willow]

i think its actually fun
got me to use tools

[brisk finch]

From a narrative perspective XD
Why does killing her get you a new npc but saving her does nothing

[cedar skiff]

silksong has so much about motherhood thematically man

[lavish needle]

Don’t hornet said that the kid was fed by her mother’s skin ?

[uncut holly]

Chapel Maid, AKA Snail Shaman elludes to the fact that the Citadel came down to the Snail Shaman Chapel and wrecked the place a very long time ago

[rocky smelt]

skynx is his name

[brisk finch]

oh that makes sense
I should've thought of that

[tawdry flare]

Pinstress probably goes to help the kingdom after Hornet’s rousing speech or something, Huntress goes to raise her kid(s?)

[quartz plinth]

Does it?

[cedar skiff]

yes it really does

[ember river]

"Oh you didn't do this annoying quest on a time I didn't display, this character is gone forever lol"

[brisk finch]

Red Memory, GSM, Huntress

[quartz plinth]

Silksong if it was written by Fromsoftware

[lucid pasture]

you talking abt huntress? If you dont do her quest, her children kill her, the new npc that appears is one of her children asking for food for you and they give you the quest instead

[brisk finch]

Nono, you did do the quest and now she's gone

[quartz plinth]

Oh yeag

[cedar skiff]

its a lot of little things but it builds up to a clear thematic line from start to finish

[brisk finch]

If you didn't do it, you get a new npc

[ember river]

I actually like how unapologetic silksong is towards death quite a lot

[rocky smelt]

karmelita too and even hornet with the parasite lol

[ember river]

And a gutted corpse

[brisk finch]

Yesss

[cedar skiff]

one of the first enemy descriptions we see is the moss mother "Motherhood is an instinct that can push creatures beyond what seems their natural limits. It turns even weaker beasts like this into formidable foes."

[lavish needle]

I did her quest but at the end it was just the child who est her mom

[cedar skiff]

literally foreshadows the true ending

[brisk finch]

Right, it's more content! And that's fine, but it makes the "ye she just gone without even a note" thing feel odd

[ember river]

TRUE

[rocky smelt]

and bell beast how could i forget

[cedar skiff]

then you have stuff like the bellbeast being a mother, shakra having a strained relationship with her mother

[brisk finch]

Bloodborne 2 finally released

[cedar skiff]

its all little things but evidently meant to feed into a clear narrative

[lavish needle]

I should have read journal entry

[dapper willow]

Being a mother is hard
-Silksong

[brisk finch]

GSM as a toxic mother figure towards the Weavers who left, with her complicated relationship with both daughters she had after

[lavish needle]

Being a mother is hard
-my mom

[light saddle]

Well, I spose she does have like… three moms

[ember river]

I think they planned to release silksong for mother's day but it got delayed by several years

[brisk finch]

Being a mother is hard
-me, who is choosing not to be one cause lmao, lol even

[lean temple]

The Weavers themselves with how they made Eva

[cedar skiff]

hornet became a mother/mentor to lace

[brisk finch]

I am so glad that was canonized

I've always loved the three queens explanation

[cedar skiff]

At LEAST how i interpret it

[brisk finch]

True!

[ember river]

Apparently they had to make a game other than the mother stuff

[dapper willow]

Hornet had the upbringing of champions

[rocky smelt]

vespa shouldve been a boss fight lol that woudve been so cool

[tawdry flare]

No, you’re FACTUALLY CORRECT

[brisk finch]

She has a sprite sheet

[quartz plinth]

Anime friendship boosts if they were well written

[rocky smelt]

died of being too big disease

[cedar skiff]

"Is it shameful? A mother who would not sacrifice herself for her children to grow strong? Is it wrong to want? To witness their first flight, their first hunt? To see them kill, and grow?

[ember river]

Nuh uh, you get hive knight

[lavish needle]

Watch some artist ship them

[quartz plinth]

Honestly silksong is such a woke game i love how many themes it has in it, team cherry cooked tbh

[cedar skiff]

oh they still do

[glossy badger]

100% completion at 90 hours😭

[tawdry flare]

#sk-discussion Activities

[rocky smelt]

oh shoot maybe she'll be one of the pantheon bosses like the nailmasters were

[ember river]

You commit hate crimes against a mourning gay mantis

[light saddle]

Damn

[rocky smelt]

nah i mean in silksong it woudve been cool to fight her in red memory

[lucid pasture]

i wouldnt say hornet turned into a mother figure but more like siblings specifically because i think the point is how both of them are separating themselves from their parental figures and trying to create a new world and shit

[rocky smelt]

are the spritesheets available to look at anywhere?

[dapper willow]

The ss lore does the mother-daughter thing for lace and horner while everyone else just ships them
We are the true gatekeepers of the lore

[ember river]

Not only murder him in cold blood and erase his most precious memory, you also proudly display his still beating heart as a trophy at home

[quartz plinth]

I don't see Hornet as a mother figure for lace i really don't think thats what the ending implies

[brisk finch]

Not that I'm aware of. I just have the text+ prerelease info, but I saw it somewhere

[light saddle]

Hollow Knight too — the first game had a gay couple and a nonbinary protag

[ember river]

And call him a narcissist

[tawdry flare]

mother/daughter big sibling/little sibling potato potato

[quartz plinth]

Non binary?

[dapper willow]

in taht context it sounds so wrong

[tawdry flare]

Agender technically but

[glossy badger]

Yeah I saw them more as sisters

[brisk finch]

To me, the fact that Shakra goes from calling Hornet Child Wielding Needle to Hornet Wielding Needle
And the whole bit about Lace being created to be a child
Feels connected

[lavish needle]

Haven’t saw them lol

[light saddle]

Ye, TK doesn’t have a gender

[ember river]

The entire story of green prince is so fucked up it is just dark humor at this point

[quartz plinth]

Oh right