sk-lore

[twin dragon]

what abt this

[ember river]

I'd assume it was heavily modified as well, like the statues of the conductors, architects and keepers weren't around

[lucid pasture]

i dont think so, i dont think they would have the power to countain the weavers without GMS help honestly

[cedar skiff]

also there is that cut ending so

[lucid pasture]

but maybe idk

[cedar skiff]

i do think the weavers mostly leaving pharloom has to do with it. and gms motherly instincts also

[twin dragon]

They were possibly around, pretty sure once people realized the weavers were kind of hated

[cedar skiff]

"motherly instincts"

[dapper willow]

Not all weavers are gigachads like hornet or First sinner
its the truth of the hollow knight worlds
The gigachad effect

[twin dragon]

They used them as puppet leaders

[cedar skiff]

the things that steal silk fascinate me

those weird annoying enemies

were they fabricated like right before gms lost her shit?

[ember river]

I disagree

The new order was clearly established after the weavers

[lucid pasture]

people say its for the silk but honestly i took it as Silk being mostly for revenge against weavers. and a bit for the silk ofc

[ember river]

Bellador tells us as much

[twin dragon]

The conductor guy in high halls right?

[dapper willow]

I don't think GMS would ever need another source of silk

[ember river]

The base of the citadel was probably more similar to a weavenest, and barely larger than the cradle

[ember river]

yes, him

[twin dragon]

I dont remember what he says very clearly

[dapper willow]

Maybe she wanted to extract the weaver's silk making ability and insert it into lace or something

[lavish tangle]

theory: groal can use spell abilities because he ate the shaman

[ember river]

They foolishly took the mantle of rule from the weavers without acknowledging the true monarch

[twin dragon]

Most likely they needed the weaver's song to keep gms asleep

[ember river]

What weaversong

[teal drift]

Based on Abyss lace dialogue, Silk wanted to eat hornet for strength.

[dapper willow]

Most people agree with this
I don't personally but its possible he stole the spell from the shaman

[cedar skiff]

i think the cut ending kinda fits into this

[dapper willow]

That could make some sense

[twin dragon]

"For her light, eternal, we chant" or smt like that

[teal drift]

Lace says her act of rebellion was "not letting her consume you and your silk"

[twin dragon]

The lore bit after widow

[ember river]

Isn't that widow dialogue?

[twin dragon]

Not dialogue

[cedar skiff]

lace is such a good character btw i so didnt care about her after her first fight but after cradle fight and then the act 3 nuclaer bombs i actually give a f about her

[twin dragon]

Lore bit after the fight

[quartz flicker]

There are a few mentions of the Weavers being healers, so I think that they were benevolent towards other bugs at one point.

[twin dragon]

Implies they kept the trap functional pretty sure

[ember river]

What trap

The trap is what we set up with the shamans

[dapper willow]

I cared about almost every npc

[twin dragon]

Whatever atrocity they cooked up to ensnare gms

[dapper willow]

I love those little g uys

[ember river]

The weavers just put her to sleep

The snare is what hornet uses to void her

[twin dragon]

Pretty sure eva tells us that they made that thing once, but bigger

[teal drift]

iirc Eva says the weavers were excited about using it on GMS but it didn't work out.

[dapper willow]

They didn't use the void unlike the shamans

[rain spindle]

I think lace not being a child is a pretty big cope people have

Hornet still calls her a child even at the end

[ember river]

This

[twin dragon]

Not necessarily the void

[rain spindle]

(And hornet knows shes old as fuck)

[teal drift]

the weavers seemed to have interest in finding an easier way to hold GMS down without all the citadel nonsense.

[ember river]

Nah, it's real, the shaman states she has been around the citadel for the longest they can record

[teal drift]

Based on dialogue, Eva herself I think was an attempt at creating a divinity to rival or cut down GMS.

[rain spindle]

A perpetual child is still a child

Hornet knows shes old as fuck but like. She still calls her child

[twin dragon]

Is there any mention of what they ended up using for gms

[teal drift]

oh no its starting again

[rain spindle]

Lace might be older than hornet actually

[teal drift]

I think it's the song but im not sure

[twin dragon]

STOP SHIPPING LACE AND HORNET

[rain spindle]

Who cares

Let people ship

[twin dragon]

no

[rain spindle]

Yes

[twin dragon]

no

[twin dragon]

Shi im waiting for the wiki to be complete with that info

[teal drift]

https://x.com/ALT_18_/status/1968192929882837317

∆LT | SILKSONG SPOILERS (@ALT_18_)

Me whenever someone says Lace is a child

X · Sep 17, 2025, 5:58 AM

[cedar skiff]

lace child ambiguity discourse aside lace and hornet in a romantic light is so uninteresting compared to their canon one

[twin dragon]

since eva got absorbed by me

[twin dragon]

"canon one"?

[cedar skiff]

i hate to pull the "omg theyre so siblings" card for ships i dont like but its so evident the game implies a familial dynamic between them

[rain spindle]

No she is pretty much a child

[teal drift]

Eva's dialogue is infuriating because its super interesting but then she just resorts to her default dialogue and I can't read it again.

[cedar skiff]

and i used to fw lacenet years ago

until i like, played the game

[rain spindle]

Like that's the entire point of laces character

[teal drift]

I just disagree in the same way that I disagree that the vessels are hollow.

[quartz flicker]

Hornet and Lace have absolutely no chemistry lmfao

[rain spindle]

I think those are different things

[teal drift]

I also don't ship them at all, but I disagree with the she's wholly a child claim.

[rain spindle]

Lace doesnt understand her own existence, shes immature and impulsive while also being nihilistic

[quartz flicker]

Lace just acts like a little shit and Hornet is just unimpressed

[cedar skiff]

tbf the descriptive part of the hunters journal for lost lace, the one that isnt written by hornet, calls her a child. but like, i think theres a lot to laces character about her being a child that just dont go well in a shipping enviorment

[rain spindle]

She is very obviously a child imo

[cedar skiff]

her being a child is as important to her character as her not actually being one

[drowsy mortar]

She is biologically a child yes

That part is not ambiguous

[teal drift]

I agree with that. She's biologically a child but has been alive so long that she's mentally an adult filled with despair.

[rain spindle]

Sayinf lace is not a child is wishful thinking which to me is idiotic bc people should ship whatever they want

[quartz flicker]

Lace isn't even a biological being.

[cedar skiff]

having to jump through tons of hoops and mischaracterising to validate a frankly bland ship just isnt my jam

[rain spindle]

I disagree. Mentally shes still a child. Filled with despair

[twin dragon]

Poor thing is basically made to be a perpetual child

[cedar skiff]

but each to their own

[drowsy mortar]

She is also not mentally an adult either, she’s programmed to be a child

[twin dragon]

And nihilism seems to have been set in a long time ago

[drowsy mortar]

A depressed child but still a child

[quartz flicker]

Lace (and Phantom) is closer to Second Sentinel than anything.

[quick cairn]

actually what's this
why did this pop into existance, why break out Hornet

[drowsy mortar]

She is just old, mentally and physically she’s a kid

[naive crag]

i dont care how mature lace is mentally but its mentioned she does look like one and thats still weird

[rain spindle]

Lace is likely a pure vessel parallel

While phantom is a ghost parallel

[twin dragon]

Lace for sure has seen and knows shit, but she's only able to express it as a child would

[cedar skiff]

i saw a really good take the other day that basically changed my implication of the true ending and its that as hornet replaces gms in every other ending she does so in the true ending by becoming a mentor to lace and using her own and gms remaining silk to allow lace to grow up naturally into an actual person. lace needs good influence, not a romantic partner

[drowsy mortar]

Lace broke Hornet out because she doesn’t want to be replaced

[teal drift]

If someone with a 13 year old brain lives for 100 years I qualify them as an adult, albeit one who probably acts like they have a cognitive impairment.

[twin dragon]

That's how i see lace

[lucid pasture]

its most possible that that was Lace

[rain spindle]

Would you date them

[teal drift]

No lol but I wouldn't condescend to call them a child after all that time.

[rain spindle]

I think it's fair honestly

[twin dragon]

Def is, these things appear near her boss arena at deep docks pretty sure

[drowsy mortar]

I would feel greatly uncomfy dating basically a loli

[lucid pasture]

yea

[rain spindle]

I srill stand by the idea that Lace is a Pure Vessel parallel and Phantom is a the knight parallel

[teal drift]

Many stupid adults do act like they have a 13 year old brain anyways lol. Wouldn't date them either.

[lucid pasture]

and i think it would make sense for the game to begin qith lace saving hornet and then end with hornet savin lace

[rain spindle]

Honestly ship and let it ship

The problem is that lacenet is slop

[lucid pasture]

pretty cool

[cedar skiff]

damn thats good

[twin dragon]

Wait you just begun the game?

[cedar skiff]

lacenet (the romantic ship) just isnt even that interesting for people to be doing all that mental gymnastics to be vailidating them

[drowsy mortar]

Ehhhh, don’t ship kids

[twin dragon]

DO NOT enter this chat untill you've done the true ending or smt

[drowsy mortar]

That fuels a very unhealthy part of the internet

[lucid pasture]

no?? im saying it would in the sense of assuming it was lace who saved her

[twin dragon]

Ah, well, she wanted her to fall to her death

[drowsy mortar]

You are correct

[lucid pasture]

lol

[twin dragon]

"Saving"

She basically doesn't want hornet to reach gms

[rain spindle]

Honestly I feel like Lace should interact with the THK. He probably understands how she feels

[drowsy mortar]

Lace didn’t care if she lived or died in that moment she’s just keeping her from citadel

[lucid pasture]

nah i think thats superficial reading of her character

[twin dragon]

She is CLEARLY shown to be envious

Of hornet

[lucid pasture]

but she is childish asf, she can be like tsunderes lol

[twin dragon]

That's the point

[naive crag]

her needolin dialogue is really clear about her being jealous

[drowsy mortar]

Very different upbringing

GMS did actually love Lace

[quartz flicker]

There are SO MANY other characters you could be shipping Hornet with. Shakra, Huntress, Badass Flea, 12th Architect, Garmond (if you think she's straight lol), or Trobbio if you wanna get wacky.

[rain spindle]

Pale King loved THK

[naive crag]

why huntress never heard of that ship

[rain spindle]

Hornet could be bi ig

[twin dragon]

Lace is clearly depressed and demented, but she can only express those feelings in the way a child would

[quartz flicker]

because giant badass ladies are cool

and Hornet respects Huntress

[cedar skiff]

again my fav interpretation is that hornet as the main remaining source of silk allows lace to grow up naturally and become an actual person over time

[naive crag]

but she DIES

[lucid pasture]

the point is that she doesnt really know what she wants - despite fighting Hornet and being envious, she could also want Hornet to free Pharloom and thats why she did that at the beginning. she didnt fully believe in Hornet but she still wanted a try at change. and did something pretty minor to see if anything would change. I dont think she expected hornet to die from freeing her LOL also the butterfly didnt even free hornet by itself, it only gave hornet Silk

[cedar skiff]

let lace have an actually good figure to look up to in her life

[rain spindle]

I think Hornets next step is trying to find out what the hell happened with the knight. And she will bring lace ig

[twin dragon]

pretty sure it broke or weakened the cage seal

Instead of giving hornet silk

[ember river]

Let her look at the hollow knight

[cedar skiff]

theres a lot thematically about hornet staying in pharloom for the time being but i do think she visists hallownest and may go on a journey like this

[quartz flicker]

Forgot about Eva. I hope we get to see what she looks like.

[lucid pasture]

no its hornet who breaks the cage after gaining the silk power look at it again

[ember river]

That'd be a pretty nice role model for another weird lifeform

[twin dragon]

For real though, but not sure how lace would recover from that

If you make a child question their own existence you did smt fucked up

[rain spindle]

Title screen implies she goes to the surface. I think she will return to Hallownest (and then maybe after shes done go back to pharloom)

[cedar skiff]

awww i wish i honestly love all the fanart of the siblings i love that happy shit

[cedar skiff]

doesnt hornets nail even before the true ending chill on the surface

i... forgor..

[rain spindle]

No...

[ember river]

Not putting enough void to block that aspect of their mind

[cedar skiff]

oh damn

[lyric rose]

I… Forgo.

[cedar skiff]

i just thought it was voidy fucked up surface

is there a special screen for the twisted child ending?

[lucid pasture]

this is all assuming Lace really was the one who sent the butterfly to hornet ofc - it could not be true after all, it could be a random butterfly, it could be FATE, but I think it being Lace saving her just fits the game pretty strongly thematically lol

[rain spindle]

Again:

Pure Vessel is parallel to Lace
The Knight is parallel to Phantom

[cedar skiff]

i think the knight has more direct parallels to lace though

[twin dragon]

Lace lived for quite a while soo, presumably saw the citadel being built, and you know how vile the shit citadel did is

[lyric rose]

And Hornet is Hornet

[quartz flicker]

I don't think we know this character's gender.

[ember river]

Did she? The timeline's a mess to me right now

[cedar skiff]

the true ending has hornet looking back at lace similary to how she looked back at the knights broken shell in dream no more

[lucid pasture]

more like phantom is broken vessel lol

[twin dragon]

I mean caretaker mentions how lace's been around for a LOOONG time

[ember river]

My current belief is that the citadel originally was much smaller and looked much more like a weavenest

[teal drift]

I think lace's situation reflects in general the vessels, i dont think it's 1:1 like that.

[cedar skiff]

^^

[quartz flicker]

yeah, probably

[terse warren]

was/were

[twin dragon]

Also not sure how a dormant gms would create lace, so it must've been before weavers took over

[lyric rose]

Kra/tos

[ember river]

Then when the weavers departed and the new administration took over they made it much more of a gilded cathedral

[teal drift]

Lace I think, like the Knight, was close to becoming a shade lord towards the end due to nihilism over her existence.

[coral wren]

Lost lace song is so amazing

[rain spindle]

Phantom and The Knight both got discarded and got forgotten by their parents

[ember river]

According to the chapel snail things weren't always revolving around the citadel

[coral wren]

If only the fight were as good

[twin dragon]

I think the game heavily implies lace freed hornet with a vile intent

[rain spindle]

Also they look similar physically

[cedar skiff]

Yeah i honestly think this makes a lot of sense religion wise too. i think theyd incline to worship a dormant god a lot more in hopes for a return

[twin dragon]

I guess, but the caretaker's also presumably been in the citadel for a while

[rain spindle]

No, only the knight can do that. You need voidheart

[teal drift]

I think GMS at some points was weakened but not out of the picture

[ember river]

I mean, they were extremely afraid of that happening once they realized they'd all get mindslaved

[lyric rose]

And Hornet’s name for the Knight (ghost) is a synonym for Phantom.

[cedar skiff]

guys i swear we just gotta built just one more gilded spike maze and gms will wake up

and shell bless us with the silk

[rain spindle]

That too

[lucid pasture]

No?? Lace is just a bit insane lol, i think the fact she explicitly saves Hornet in the last scene of act 2 already changes much of how you should be viewing her actions

[ember river]

But it was too late when they realized because they realized when that god was waking and they were getting mindslaved

[cedar skiff]

i think gms was inactive for a little bit before she went berserk

[teal drift]

lace saves hornet both times out of spite against GMS

[twin dragon]

buddy broddie blud, needolin her in the second fight and she makes it obvious that she's really jealous and thinks gms wants hornet for herself

[quartz flicker]

she said she did this to spite her mother

[twin dragon]

If lace wanted to save hornet, why the hell would she want to literally dismember her twice

[lucid pasture]

because as I said she is insanely conflicted

[lyric rose]

she can’t decide

[twin dragon]

TWICE?

[quartz flicker]

Lace probably fears what Silk would become of she absorbed Hornet.

[twin dragon]

pretty sure she's decided on murder

[ember river]

Then she saves your life

[lucid pasture]

the first time she fights hornet she was not really full on fighting though

[twin dragon]

after kicking some sense into her silk ass

[twin dragon]

Who knows, maybe she improved just as we did

[naive crag]

she just wants to spite gms because shes jealous its so obvious

[twin dragon]

This is what im saying, she's jealous, she thinks GMS doesnt love her

And wants hornet as her daughter, presumable because of what weavers were before

[ember river]

Also is anyone else who thinks it's pretty fucked up that Hornet can murder the green prince in his dream, rip out his heart and display it beating as a trophy in her home?

[teal drift]

Hornet built different.

[rain spindle]

Shes homophobic

[twin dragon]

Got freed, talks like a fine gentleman, then out of nowhere acuses hornet of tresspassing and jumps her

[ember river]

Karmelita agrees to that and Khann is already dead, but you shank this guy who asks you to leave his memory alone for no reason and display a heart in your house

[ember river]

Maybe he hates women

In his mind

[naive crag]

i like to believe he hates everyone

[teal drift]

I think Lace was planning on killing Hornet the first time but then realized Hornet was stronger than she thought. The second time she was fighting more desperately.

[naive crag]

hes that much of a narcissist

[ember river]

Well the only one he ever loved looked exactly like him so

[teal drift]

Green Prince was a bit of a dick to Hornet in the cage so she can do anything to him and its fine.

[lucid pasture]

i think she is both extrmeely jealous at her mother like this and also saves Hornet at the beginning because she passively wanted some change to happen. she actually knows this all sucks, she knows a bit her mother is insane, she still acts in that knight character to protect her kingdom a bit because she doesnt have will to go full against her mother (until she actually has, she saves hornet from dying on act 2)

[ember river]

He probably IS that big of a narcissist

[teal drift]

Tbf he's gay that's just a thing we do.

[twin dragon]

At that point pretty sure she feared for her mother, instead of thinking gms personally wanted her

[teal drift]

meet me and my boyfriend meme but its with green Prince.

[ember river]

Displaying a beating, severed heart as a trophy is still pretty brutal for what the game normally offers

It's also hilarious

[teal drift]

We kill Garmond for nothing but the crime of having an emo phase.

[ember river]

That the one you do it to is some random who was just mourning

[lyric rose]

Let’s talk the big questions.

Or should I say, the big and small questions?

[naive crag]

i saw a tweet like that earlier

[twin dragon]

Since hornet straight up dropped a fire ass line in choral chambers lace encounter

[ember river]

Garmond wouldn't want the dishonor of harming an innocent and died in fair duel

[lyric rose]

Are the bugs bug-sized bugs, or human-sized bugs?

[ember river]

Truly a bug version of don quixote

[lucid pasture]

You dont need to take all her words at face value, if you did so you would think Hornet actuallt didnt care about anyone in pbarloom and really was only doing it to gain money as she said, but she is obviously not like that and was jusr saying shit like that for appearences

[ember river]

Except this time he was the only sane person for real

Then he went insane and got killed

[teal drift]

Hornet is a fake idgafer

[twin dragon]

I mean hornet mentions how she wants to bind gms for herself

[naive crag]

those arent her words those are her thoughts tho.....

[twin dragon]

but she has self control and resists the urge

[ember river]

They are considerably larger than humans, the Hollow Knight for example was as tall as the Empire State in his prime

[lucid pasture]

the same thought that say "a child, too broken" idk i wouldnt trust it LOL

[naive crag]

it would be weird if the one bug made entirely out of silk could resist the needolin

[ember river]

She has to feed the parasite after all

[twin dragon]

and no lace does NOT show empathy to hornet in any shape sense or form before the final dialogue after her 2nd battle

[twin dragon]

What parasite

[ember river]

The twisted bud

[twin dragon]

It's her weaver thing

[ember river]

I'm curious about that higher being sounding thing

[twin dragon]

She mentions that when talking to the caretaker fym

[silver spire]

i mean one of the endings does have hornet bind GMS

[lyric rose]

Single-celled lifeseed, dozens of meters in height

[silver spire]

but what even is binding

[twin dragon]

After completing silk and soul

[twin dragon]

Slurp

[lucid pasture]

she doesnt show any empathy and yet she ignores hornet until she does everything she needs and until ahe actually gets stronger to fight her 2nd time at full power?

[cedar skiff]

i love how her basically begging the various pilgrims to stay in the current town theyre in is code for I actually really like you Please dont die

[naive crag]

not weaver genes its wyrm nature to rule

[ember river]

Giant bacteria

[hushed viper]

the silksong:

that one part where you run around naked:

[twin dragon]

I mean we've seen what weavers do, and many npcs mention how power hungry weavers were

[ember river]

Weavers are also extremely powerhungry

[silver spire]

you can bind yourself to heal? you can bind widow, bind GMS, bind dead bodies to get crests, idk what binding is in lor

[lyric rose]

There’s a 1 centimeter long bacterium in the real world

[twin dragon]

pale king wanted to rule kinda, that's all we know

[lyric rose]

We only discovered it like 3 years ago

[teal drift]

The one pilgrim whose like "I feel bad for tarrying so long" and Hornet's like "maybe the adventure is the breaks we take along the way" and then the pilgrim is like "wtf are you talking about are you stupid"

[ember river]

These limit cases of biology are so interesting

[rain spindle]

Hornet is indeed stupig

[twin dragon]

drop name

[cedar skiff]

a desire for power is natural for any pale being, even hornet, who albeit bests that desire in the true ending. or at least redirects it towards betterment for the kingdom

[lyric rose]

Thiomargarita magnificens

[rain spindle]

I mean in guessing the knight is the exception here

They seem chilling

[ember river]

The knight becomes one of the most powerful beings in existence in 1, maybe 2 of the endings

[twin dragon]

not even NEAR 1 cm

1 cm would be insane for a bacterium

[rain spindle]

Not because they wanted to

[lucid pasture]

if we go by what youre saying, even before the last Lace fight in Act 3 she is still acting towards hornet just as she acted before, with derision and being cheeky, but we ofc know she doesnt actually think that at that point she is just too fucking broken and silk possession over broke her

[rain spindle]

Also the knight becoming a higher being happens in most cases

[lyric rose]

You might be looking up namibiensis.

[cedar skiff]

i guess but it also depends on how you interpret the embrace the void ending and what happens after (that isnt silksong)

[twin dragon]

I mean she got her ass kicked first time yeah

[ember river]

In HK/SB they don't really

Become anything greater

[twin dragon]

I indeed was mb

[naive crag]

it can grow up to 2

[quartz plinth]

The radiance was right in trying to erradicate the abyss, it's purely evil

[quartz plinth]

I just fought ||Lost garmond||, its not fair, Void is evil

[twin dragon]

Yeah holy shit this is insane

[lucid pasture]

i dont think she got her ass kicked, she litsrally was simply not fighting at full power and she willingly waited till hornet reached citadel to fight her again

[teal drift]

Lost Garmond was probably infected by silk and then void if it helps

[lyric rose]

That’s a coin

[cedar skiff]

i think the shade lord flashing in the ss true ending is just there to fuck with us and not have definitive answers i still think im team silksong takes place after dream no more

[silver spire]

the question isnt whether void is evil, is whether void even has sentience

[hushed viper]

anyway chat been playing silksong alot lately and yea i feel like college is feeling REALLY like the citadel

[rain spindle]

It does. Hk confirms

[quartz plinth]

It clearly doesn't have as all it does is destroy and consume

[rain spindle]

It is sentient but not unified

[silver spire]

and if it does, does it have a unifie- oh

[teal drift]

the shade lord flashing was so that all endings of HK could technically be canon

[rain spindle]

When the knight becomes a higher being it becomes able to control it

[twin dragon]

No, she very clearly got her ass kicked, she fought hornet way harder because she got good, and i assume she was actually fearing for her mother, since she saw how hornet dropped a kick ass line of false gods falling

[silver spire]

so its TK able to control void everywhere or just in hallownest

[rain spindle]

Everywhere but it has a range limit

Theres too much void

[silver spire]

*god of void but not all of it

[rain spindle]

They cant control everything at once

[silver spire]

oh true

[naive crag]

the void seems somewhat instinct driven but the shade lord has sentience

[rain spindle]

It proteccs

[cedar skiff]

yeah all the higher beings weve seen so far have a range limit

[teal drift]

do we think one of the siblings saw hornet with the flower and put the word out lmao

[cedar skiff]

except gms in the cut ending apparently

[rain spindle]

Most notably, Unn

[teal drift]

like how did that work out

[naive crag]

gms cant reach above her

[teal drift]

unns radio signal can't get through a single wall

[silver spire]

so void constructs seem to be able to follow a specific pattern, but void by itself seems to just go off of pure instinct

[cedar skiff]

i dont consider the cut ending relevant/"canon" to the lore but i think its super interesting

[lucid pasture]

honestly theres no point in discussing this you will see it in one way and i will in another way lol. theres no way i can believe anything Lace says like that, even before I reached act 3 ending to me it was obvious Lace was just acting cheeky and did not actually believe in her mother, that she was just emotionally damaged because of Silk and somewhat passively wanted to be saved by Hornet.

[teal drift]

How do the siblings who were killed by Hornet feel about saving her.

[ember river]

the knight probably felt a burn somewhere from the flower and went to check

[lyric rose]

no mind to think

[cedar skiff]

how many of those siblings managed to deveolop focus

[twin dragon]

Pretty sure they don't, part of the void now

[ember river]

They have a mind, steel soul jinn says so

[silver spire]

oh yea

[ember river]

They are surprised that the knight can say no

[silver spire]

is there a new steel soul guy in skong

[twin dragon]

And even if they do, any thought might be overriden by the voidheart

[ember river]

well, "say"

[ancient scroll]

has anyone theorized about why widow talks about a gift for their waking as in gms waking up?
people seem to assume that gms is fully awake during the game as she seemingly ordered hornets capture, but she might not be fully awake?

[ember river]

there is one I think

[ember river]

She is not

[rain spindle]

It was just the knight

[silver spire]

what new lore do we have on the steel soul guys, bc jinn talked about having a master or master(s)

[ember river]

Until you wake her up and immediately beat her

[rain spindle]

The others were just watching

[teal drift]

the thousands of siblings behind it just rolled up to enjoy the show

[reef zephyr]

So like what’s this game ever about, I got that Pharloom was tracking down and capturing all the weavers + hornet and that the citadel was trying to use silk to prolong life but that’s pretty much it

[rain spindle]

The knight technically has power over them

[silver spire]

isnt shade lord an amalgamation of all siblings, but TK is controlling them all

[cedar skiff]

what was hollow knight even about until we pieced together the full picture

coming into some dead kingdom to kill some guy that looks like a bigger version of u

itll make sense eventually

[naive crag]

finding out why all bugs are crazy and feral

[teal drift]

Somewhere there is a version of the knight that never really figures out wtf is going on and just hangs out with Lemm.

[cedar skiff]

true theres that also

[twin dragon]

I mean, i think the game makes very clear that lace is starved of gms's attention, and in the beggining thinks gms wants hornet as her new daughter or something similar, and she cuts off her arm either out of spite, or because she saw how hornet kicked some sense into her, and her existence isn't as purposeless as she thought it was

[silver spire]

this goes back to my theory, BENCHES ARE MULTIVERSAL OBJECTS

[cedar skiff]

i like that the relic dude in bellhart seems to be an ex vault keeoer

[silver spire]

WHENEVER YOU SIT ON A BENCH, AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE GETS CREATED

[cedar skiff]

does his dialouge ever lore drop anything regarding that

[teal drift]

im curious if TC considers shades/cocoons and bench saving canon or if theyre just pure gameplay

[twin dragon]

Looks hella different though

[cedar skiff]

exiled for being insane npc or just left npc chose your path modern man

[lucid pasture]

yes but to me these were simply feelings Lace always had, it was not implanted by Hornet changing her. The way Hornet changed her was by showing her she could have agency - not by showing her Silk is bad

[rain spindle]

Shade is canon cocoon isnt

[teal drift]

guys enough citadel talk. Is there any missing flea lore.

[silver spire]

idk anything about fleas tbh

[twin dragon]

I mean hornet doesn't show lace that silk is bad, lace seems to think that gms doesn't love her, and she spun her as a tool, esp after she interacted with phantom

[silver spire]

like what are those dog fly hybrids

[cedar skiff]

i likethe idea that hornet waking up startled at benches is her "foreseeing" the death

whoever first came up with that needs a medal

[twin dragon]

That's why she wants to kill hornet from the very start, she thinks she's being replaced

[naive crag]

theyre stupid and got stuck thats all

[twin dragon]

What is the cocoon then

[cedar skiff]

gameplay mechanic

[silver spire]

she sh*ts out extra silk at the thought of dying fr fr

[lucid pasture]

yes thats why she passively wants change and why she "saves" hornet at the beginning. She is hoping for something to change, deep down, even if she doesnt have enough agency to do it herself, and continues acting in Silk will

[cedar skiff]

its like how the platforming (mostly) is gameplay mechanics. did the bugs of pharloom have to pogo across weird circle flowers to get through hunters march

[twin dragon]

Broddie uh ah i don't think i can keep conversing with you

[twin dragon]

Those who fly

[cedar skiff]

tru...

[twin dragon]

If lace ever changes, she changes after the 2nd battle

[lucid pasture]

thats what i said

[naive crag]

omg its been like 1 hour let lace go

[cedar skiff]

stopp laces a fun character

but this discussion is kind of stupid.

[twin dragon]

I wouldn't expect my replacement and rival to tell me not to kill myself, but to see how my life, even if artificial, is a life nonetheless, and matters just as much

[naive crag]

theyre not getting anywhere

[twin dragon]

Yeah, we aren't

[lucid pasture]

i already talked abojt it lol its just that she gains agency, she does not actuallt changes up her frelings

FEELINGS

[twin dragon]

Sigh

[naive crag]

lets talk about baby judges

[teal drift]

imam be real i dont even know what this disagreement is about

[twin dragon]

Same thing all over again

[cedar skiff]

baby judges?

[teal drift]

i felt bad killing the baby judges

but hunter's journal >>>>

[twin dragon]

Buddy blud thinks lace explicitely saves hornet at the start of the game

"Saves" with the intention of saving

[teal drift]

I think she is the one who breaks the seal on the cage but i think it's more out of spite

[cedar skiff]

^^

[twin dragon]

That is what i think

[naive crag]

#sk-discussion message

[twin dragon]

Hornet go down precipice, hornet die, me is now mother's favourite

[cedar skiff]

i do have some sense that at least after lace 2 lace was actively rooting for hornet to take down her shitty mom

[winter iris]

Hornet loves fluffly bugs ❤️

[twin dragon]

That is what i also think

But gms isn't even a shitty mother, lace just thinks that way

[winter iris]

Hornet should adopt a pet flea.

[naive crag]

i wanna see more baby bugs they look so fucked up

[lucid pasture]

yes i mean thats what i said

kindaish

[cedar skiff]

theyre ugly as fuck but interesting lore implications

[twin dragon]

what the fuck is a baby judge

Is it last judge but small?

[naive crag]

last judge is a really old baby judge

they grow into that

[twin dragon]

what, where

[ember river]

That'd help explain why all judges look the same species

[naive crag]

here

[lucid pasture]

also no i dont, explicitly is too much, i think she gives Hornet power because she hopes something in the kingdom will change. but she doesnt really know what that means. Anyway fuck it ill not repeat myself

[naive crag]

theyre near the blasted steps bell station

[twin dragon]

OOOOH those things are baby judges

[lucid pasture]

i dont even disagree with anything these people said though, yes Lace does that out of spite towards Silk, fhats what im saying

[twin dragon]

now why the fuck "baby judge"??????????

[naive crag]

because they are baby judges...

they grow up to be judges

[twin dragon]

initially she has more spite for hornet, but later she might shift that spite onto her momma

[twin dragon]

oh what

[cedar skiff]

as much as i wish we saw lace being naively hopeful for a change i dont think that happens

[twin dragon]

that is something

[cedar skiff]

save me epilogues dlc save me

[twin dragon]

she's nihilistic for fucks's sake

How is hope ever gonna cross her mind, aside from hoping that gms notices her

[cedar skiff]

post canon baby!!!

[lucid pasture]

genuinely look at the initial cutscene again, what the butterfly does is literally give hornet Silk and then Hornet breaks the shit up

[twin dragon]

i mean it's canon that she kinda hates herself

[cedar skiff]

well yeah, thats all true but i like to think her off screen growth after the ending goes crazy

[lucid pasture]

she kinda gets overwhelmed or some shit but like WHY would she give hornet silk out of spite lol

[twin dragon]

Hornet can produce silk out of her shell, as a weaver (even if half), not break the seals though

[cedar skiff]

i can imagine anything

[twin dragon]

Lace weakens the seal

[twin dragon]

fr though, let it be ambiguous

[cedar skiff]

i think the true ending is perfect when it comes for ambiguity and hopecore

[twin dragon]

So the last judge's infance was being a ugly ass sand worm

[limber anvil]

Well cc is streaming wanting lore but to bad I'm not a member

[cedar skiff]

unlike the hk endings it kind of allows you to imagine a more realistic brighter future for the characters

[twin dragon]

Let's switch the topic

[lucid pasture]

i mean either way what would weakening the seal do for "showcasing spite towards hornet" thats just helping

[twin dragon]

Kind of ironic how silksong presents a more hopeless tone

[naive crag]

im more interested in how it implies certain bug species exist entirely for the citadels purpose

[twin dragon]

SO she doesn't reach gms

[cedar skiff]

right i love the contrasts between hk and ss presentation

[naive crag]

why are judges a species and not a status

[cedar skiff]

im not surprised

also it is weird for judges specifically

it makes me think back on whether snail shamans are a species or a status

[twin dragon]

I mean they're kinda made to be the guardians of the grand gate

Bred

[cedar skiff]

theres a lot of citadel servants that also seem to be bugs of status rather than specifically made for the purpose

[twin dragon]

Yeah, but judges are there to "judge" the pilgrims, nothing else tbf

[naive crag]

how can you breed a species until they have a purpose if theyre sentient beings

[twin dragon]

I dont think they would benefit from status

[cedar skiff]

maybe theyre not a specific species but just bred in a way that drills that mindset into their mind from birth through many many generations

[twin dragon]

Indoctrination

[river charm]

Wait till you hear about French people existing

[twin dragon]

I mean we see that they're worms

one species of worms it seems

Initially, at least

and they're aware even from birth of what they want to do

and what they're presumably going to do

[lucid pasture]

that seems like a pretty random way to ensuring that lmao

but ok, maybe

[twin dragon]

Amazon was going to bring hornet directly to the citadel

[naive crag]

indoctrination is basically teaching while them being judges is innate

[twin dragon]

we see the capture order written on a choral commandment

[torpid girder]

Hey guys, wanna play with me? I got a girl thanks. I gotta go with a girl.

[twin dragon]

Either teaching them from birth or generational stuff

[amber thicket]

that happens a lot with bugs actually

[naive crag]

the difference is that bugs arent sentient

or sapient idk which is the word you kinda get it

[twin dragon]

sapient

[naive crag]

they dont have the capacity to reason

[lucid pasture]

yeah but its not like the butterfly breaks the bridge itself herself, it only allows Hornet to be free. What if Hornet had not choose to break the bridge but instead could kill everyone while maintaining on the bridge, she would only reach silk faster idk

[twin dragon]

She would be still left in the middle of nowhere

[ember river]

By the way

[twin dragon]

Not knowing where to go

[ember river]

Does anyone have any picture of the secret room in the chapel of the architect?

I didn't check it out when it was still open

[twin dragon]

and lace might've specified where to break the seal

[lucid pasture]

i dont think i can change your mind and you cant change mine either theres no point in going on

[twin dragon]

Exactly

[lyric rose]

They’re like a youth group

[twin dragon]

Btw you can find her in that same bridge if you skip her fight at deep docks

[lucid pasture]

thats what i said many times 🥀 🥀

[lucid pasture]

cool

[amber thicket]

you can skip it?

[twin dragon]

So she def knew

[twin dragon]

Somehow, yeah, i've only seen the interaction

[drifting wedge]

Takes a lot more time than whooping her though

[amber thicket]

i'd imagine lol

[naive crag]

anyways i wanna know more about the shit the citadel considers sins

[steel drum]

i am so confused, does the wonderer crest has a chance to crit?

[lucid pasture]

i mean to me i see it as Lace wanting to save hornet for clinging to some change.
For you its literally so Hornet doesnt reach GMS.
thats it theres not much to be done silksong is a game made for people to interpret whatever they want yay

[naive crag]

like using the bellways is a sin why did they make them then

[twin dragon]

I just see that as what it's implied

[lucid pasture]

thats what im saying yet we are ending up on different conclusions

[lyric rose]

Jehovah’s witnesses moving goalposts and changing rules type stuff

[twin dragon]

breathing

Moving

Living

[drifting wedge]

It's a sin if you aren't the upper class I think

[lyric rose]

Which is why we should talk about the dimensions of the Citadel instead.

How wide is the Citadel?

[naive crag]

makes sense

[twin dragon]

There's a tablet at whiteward saying how some bug refused to revive and thus commited a sin🥀

[amber thicket]

i mean, if you said breathing WRONG then you'd basically be correct

[lucid pasture]

for me whats implied is that Lace saves hornet for many reasons thorough the game, it fits the game heavily thematically for me and I like it. If you dont think so whatever follow your way

[ember river]

It is a sin?

[drifting wedge]

Guys dying is gay

[naive crag]

apparently only if youre not higher class

[ember river]

Where is that stated

[ember river]

Oh, for the pilgrims

Well yeah, they have to make the climb and be judged

[lyric rose]

That’s how society is

[twin dragon]

Imo it doesn't make sense if lace didn't intend on killing hornet after 1 assassination attempt and 2 boss fights, but sure.

[ember river]

In their society you're only worthy if you survive your trek

[lyric rose]

…and if Last Judge doesn’t decide to kill you anyway

[naive crag]

not only last judge

all the judges kill pilgrims

[lyric rose]

Except the dead judge, he’s dead

[lucid pasture]

i dont think she attempted to kill hornet first boss fight and on the second one she was doing it in a suicidal last resort way it is what it is, i already said this before too

[twin dragon]

Would proke a thought if she didn't mention ripping her insides out before the first battle

[ember river]

Last Judge and the Judges weren't meant to kill pilgrims

[glossy badger]

Hornet spared lace and gave her that little pep talk

[ember river]

Initially they would probably judge your sins and either kill you on the spot or let you through

[naive crag]

so what he said

[left oyster]

And then you become a slave for all eternity

[lucid pasture]

shes just being cheeky lol. If she said "ill rip you out" in her thoughts sure but thats not what happens

[lyric rose]

But you get this sick white coat!

[left oyster]

And if you get injured or don't wanna be a slave for all eternity, you become a SUPER slave for all eternity

[twin dragon]

She says it out loud

[naive crag]

they make you immortal when you reach the citadel

well used to

[twin dragon]

directed to hornet

[lucid pasture]

yes thats what im saying

i dont have to take what she says at face value

[twin dragon]

"in her thoughts"

[drifting wedge]

She just loves skewers, it's not an attack on Hornet

[twin dragon]

Yeaaah but if she starts fighting hornet directly after that

[lucid pasture]

saying out loud is not thoughts

[left oyster]

so you can be a slave for all eternity

[lyric rose]

I like how there’s a lot more thought variety in Pharloom.

[twin dragon]

Alright im done please stop

[lyric rose]

Less “eat…when…”

[twin dragon]

More eat, now

[lucid pasture]

I SAID in her thoughts bro not out loud whats hard to understand

[twin dragon]

She says that out loud to hornet

[naive crag]

like half the hks bugs thoughts were ...

[austere aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/idiots-server-this-server-is-full-of-idiots-discord-gif-15904086506198285208

[twin dragon]

Not in her thoughts

Alright stop

[lucid pasture]

YES???? Thats what im saying😭 😭 😭 😭

[twin dragon]

Halt

[naive crag]

you said you were gonna stop 20 minutes ago

[twin dragon]

Deadass i did

[lucid pasture]

i love wasting time on discord discussions

[naive crag]

after both realizing youre not gonna agree

[twin dragon]

Alright let's talk about the grand gourmand or some shit

[teal drift]

GMS innocent of all charges

[naive crag]

fuck gms

[drifting wedge]

Is Grand Mother Silk actually a Grandmother or just a Grand Mother?

[naive crag]

if anything i like radiance more than before

[austere aurora]

one side is making a stupid ass argument and the other is sounding even stupider trying to dispel it im crying what is this

[glossy badger]

This channel in a nutshell

[lucid pasture]

i dont particularly think its stupid tbh i think its interesting but whatever

[drifting wedge]

Then why did she say "I'm not in danger, Lace, I am the danger"?

[twin dragon]

Js dont get their point of lace trying to trust hornet to "make a change", even going as far as ""saving"" her, so she can try and murder hornet 2 times in a row

[teal drift]

GMS is completely innocent everyone else did it

[glossy badger]

On top of making a joke and someone replying with "erm actually" annoys tf outta me

[twin dragon]

Expressing her desire of uh, murdering hornet

[lucid pasture]

theres no point she is mentally damaged thats it i dont think she is consistent in what she is doing

thats literally it

the end

[naive crag]

so are you gonna stop or not

[twin dragon]

Yeah let's stop

[naive crag]

shes the one who knocks

[twin dragon]

Why am i even arguing ts ain't going anywhere

[drifting wedge]

I can't believe Lugoli was the Bay Harbor Butcher

[austere aurora]

"lets stop this conversation" mfs 17 hours after saying to stop said conversation

[lucid pasture]

sorry i guess

[twin dragon]

Can't believe widow started cooking meth💔

How could she do that, she would NEVER

[naive crag]

so

[muted lantern]

So what do y'all think is the implication of the weaver queen ending? Does hornet become just as bad as silk? Was this silks plan all along and she's actually taken hornets body? Or do you think it's still a positive ending?

[twin dragon]

She'll probably rule pharloom, in which way? idfk

[drifting wedge]

Everyone got silked up so I think it's a bad ending

[drifting wedge]

"Yo, Mrs. Silk, we need to cook some silk skills, bitch"

[rich flame]

Im pretty sure The pale king had an alliances with pharloom i just cant prove it yet

[naive crag]

nooo

[worn sphinx]

jic how old is lace

[naive crag]

the pk loved being the only ruler he even had propaganda to make his kingdom seem the only civilization

[drifting wedge]

Guys, Hornet is the next incarnation of the pale king

[drifting wedge]

Like 5

[rich flame]

He made it look like he was the best- not only, nut the best and ever lasting one

[worn sphinx]

why does she sound so sofisticated

[twin dragon]

"My name is grand mother silk yo"

"My husband is the herald yo"

"uh AEEEAAARHHHHHH huh"

[austere aurora]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/586931790208434203/1416563677385195581/a60r3n.gif

[drifting wedge]

She just like that

[worn sphinx]

i cant believe how based this image is

[naive crag]

somewhere in hollow knight was smth about ''hallownest being the last civilization'' but idk where

[worn sphinx]

built different?

[drifting wedge]

Pharloom isn't a civilization, it's obviously just a megachurch

[worn sphinx]

or should i say silked differently...

[ashen rampart]

she's at least 1

[rich flame]

Yeah, being everlasting, not only one, he planned that his kingdom will be forever and every one else is just dead

[drifting wedge]

Erm sauce?

[ashen rampart]

caretaker saying she's older than most people in pharloom idk

[drifting wedge]

As we all know, the pale king was a promising political candidate for the president of Hallownest but when he got new more progressive rivals who insist dawn will break, he turned to reactionary politics (the void) to keep his kingdom the same forever

[naive crag]

even the higher beings lie

[drifting wedge]

Imagine expecting politicians to tell the truth

[maiden meteor]

btw what are the implications of Snails being able to open fucking portals

[drifting wedge]

Escargot is about to get more interesting

[maiden meteor]

escargot with void sauce

[maiden meteor]

Considering how HBs’ rule usually goes I wouldn’t be surprised if Hallownest really was the only functional civilization

We have 2 dead kingdoms out of 2

[half dirge]

Pale king like the homeless, GMS doesn't

[maiden meteor]

City of Tears didn’t have homelessness because they all were kidnapped by Sanctum

it’s funny how City of Tears is literally the only city in Hallownest

and other settlements are just Dirtmouth and Forgotten Crossroads village

[somber temple]

whats the point of getting mementos?

[naive crag]

there was classism in hallownest it juts was never explored

[tawdry flare]

You get a beating heart on your wall!

[naive crag]

hallownest would be just as bad as pharloom if tc had the same budget

thats what the pale king would do

[light saddle]

PK had his problems, but I doubt it would be anywhere near as bad.

[lucid pasture]

pale king was a good person he just experimented in 10000 void children

[naive crag]

economically at least

[maiden meteor]

HBs all desire worship but PK had the less awful approach to that

[light saddle]

Ehhh

[maiden meteor]

Unn is the goat though

[naive crag]

he wouldnt be so crazy to do the religion shit

[naive crag]

did he even do anything or was everyone just naturally drawn to him

ofc he built the kingdom but it seems they worshipped him anyways

[light saddle]

Honestly, he kind of has a similar stance on both slavery and religion. In that we don’t really have anything suggesting he commanded either, but he certainly didn’t discourage them

[maiden meteor]

He probably did establish some sort of near-religious system

[naive crag]

even the moths that already had a god

[maiden meteor]

like we have king effigies

We know that at least in decline period though King was a really rare sight

I mean he had his palace in damn Basin

There was an elevator though so idk

btw WHY would he build palace there

I imagine it was before whole vessel project

[sinful nimbus]

Hallownest had no slavery 🥱

It had workplace racism

Which is bad but you also can't blame the king for that

[austere aurora]

💔

[maiden meteor]

it seems stags’ whole purpose was transit but I supposed they enjoyed it at large

[light saddle]

Ahhh, race based slavery

[sinful nimbus]

Frame it on your wall fr

[sinful nimbus]

Well it wasn't slavery

[maiden meteor]

what part of Hallownest are we even talking about

[light saddle]

Sure it was. It’s said they were forced to do menial labor

[rancid dew]

Hallownest in all, did seem like a better place to live. At its peak, anyway. During the events of the games, I'd probably take Pharloom.

[sinful nimbus]

Minimum wage McDonalds workers can be forced to clean the bathroom stalls

[dapper willow]

I could imagine Groal praising hallownest just to hate on The citadel more

[sinful nimbus]

Those aren't slaves

[sinful nimbus]

My goat fr

[light saddle]

No?

Minimum wage workers can walk out whenever they want to. They just won’t be paid

[sinful nimbus]

Well if they want to keep their job that is

[maiden meteor]

to be fair Hallownest had proper sewers instead of dumping their waste elsewhere

[sinful nimbus]

What makes you think it was different with Hallownest

[light saddle]

The word *forced

[rancid dew]

And Hallownest didn't make you pay to sit down.

[naive crag]

you have to in some places

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't entail owning maggots as property

[maiden meteor]

btw why Gardens even have toll bench

wasn’t it Queen’s private area

[rancid dew]

Exactly. The Queen can't use benches.

[sinful nimbus]

Rich people also went there

[rain spindle]

The person trying to convince you that the snail shamans had nothing to fo with void

[light saddle]

It says they were looked down on and forced to do menial labor. Think that makes it pretty clear they were

[maiden meteor]

Basin also has one for whatever reason

[naive crag]

greenpath and city of tears have paid benches too

[rancid dew]

To be fair, Maggots are awful.

[quartz flicker]

Pharloon is way less dead than Hallownest.

[sinful nimbus]

Neither of those two things entail slavery?

[light saddle]

*forced to do menial labor

[quartz flicker]

Most of the NPCs are Pharloon natives.

[sinful nimbus]

Yes you can force someone at a job to do menial labor [or else they'd get fired]

[maiden meteor]

I think Pharloom’s governmental apparatus is dead enough to consider it such

[rain spindle]

I mean

In hallownest there is sly, sheo, oto, maro, hornet, white lady, ogrim

[quartz flicker]

Whereas almost every Hallownest NPC is someone who travelled from afar.

[rain spindle]

Most from hallownest

[rain spindle]

Midwife the dreamers the seer

All them are from hallownest

[maiden meteor]

is there even such a thing as Pharloom “native”

[rancid dew]

Grey Mourner is foreign.

[sinful nimbus]

born in pharloom?

[light saddle]

That’s not forcing. You’re perfectly free to leave if you want.

If that were the case with the maggots, it would read as something to the effect of: “typically used for menial labor.”

[maiden meteor]

It seems like most of people in Pharloom are pilgrims from outside

not counting tribes

[rancid dew]

The pilgrims are generally native.

[maiden meteor]

But where are they even born

[rancid dew]

In Pharloom.

[maiden meteor]

we have no proper settlements outside of Bellhart

[rancid dew]

Anyone who can be subjected to the Haunting is a native of Pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Forcing doesn't always mean compelled by physical efforts

[quartz flicker]

Yes this is established by the Pilgrims having silk in their bodies from their ancestors.

[rain spindle]

Thatd why the maggot wanted hegemol's armor. They wanted to fight the wind

Obviously they wouldn't want an armor to defend from physical efforts

[quartz flicker]

Tons of the NPCs in Pharloon also share a similar look.

[sinful nimbus]

The maggot is protecting the maggots from anything and everything

[rain spindle]

Aaaand also from their working condition

[sinful nimbus]

We also know they were discriminated against so like 🥴
No one thinks they weren't looked down upon just that they were not slaves

[foggy fractal]

wth

[rancid dew]

Maggots probably got a pretty raw deal, I agree. I don't know if we need to try and litigate the meaning of 'slave'. It was bad. But... We don't know if they were treated like that when Hallownest was at its peak.

[foggy fractal]

#1 Groal the Great fan ?! mods ! get her !

[rancid dew]

It could be that post-Wyrm Hallownest is much more might makes right and Maggots get bullied more.

[quartz flicker]

Bone Bottom and Pilgrim's Rest. Mosshome used to be a settlement. Greymoor is a big settlement (but only Halfway House is safe).

[naive crag]

i just realised its her

makes sense its starpengu

[sinful nimbus]

You ruined my cover

[rancid dew]

Also, we know at least where Judges are born.

[foggy fractal]

should've made an alt TRUST

[sinful nimbus]

I have 5 alts 2 of which are in chat right now

[naive crag]

nobody else could like groal

[rain spindle]

Bullshit

[sinful nimbus]

His name is Groal THE GREAT thank you very much

[lucid pasture]

they are dropped out of citadels cliff when they are born

[foggy fractal]

wonder whos the alts

[maiden meteor]

Bone Bottom seems more like a temporary camp as well as Pilgrim’s rest

[sinful nimbus]

OK Court of the Craws is pretty peak

I might've been outdone

[maiden meteor]

and Greymoor mostly belongs to craws (although maybe it wasn’t the case before)

[rain spindle]

Not ironically

[foggy fractal]

Crawfather #1 fan when

[light saddle]

C’mon. We have a race of weak bugs that are historically looked down on and thought of as having nothing to offer, such that bargains for their life ought to be ignored.

They’re weak and forced to do menial labor. The implication is that they lack the strength to resist those forcing work on them

[rancid dew]

Craw settlements are still a settlement.

[lucid pasture]

that description is so evil wtf 😭 😭

[maiden meteor]

Pilgrimage is weird because how tf does it even begin

[quartz flicker]

I mean it's from The Hunter lol

[maiden meteor]

I assume you’re supposed to come from main entrance straight to the gates

then you see 5 bells thing

and take detour across Pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

Are we fr using Hunter as a frame of reference for how Hallownest worked in its heyday

[naive crag]

its a sin for pilgrims to use the bell ways

[sinful nimbus]

This is the same guy who killed his dog for fun ofc he's not going to respect their lives

[maiden meteor]

well obviously you do it on foot

Bellways were most likely for authorized use only

[naive crag]

arent the bell things related to the bell ways i never paid attention to it tbh

[quartz flicker]

I'd guess that in the past, Mosshome was a common starting point.

[light saddle]

Are we fr gonna ignore the essential parts of what I said, which are not the Hunter’s words?

[maiden meteor]

I mean those big ass bells

[rancid dew]

I'm pretty sure that very few pilgrims come in from the gates, considering the Last Judge's lore.

[maiden meteor]

that you ring by pushing lever

[sinful nimbus]

The rest of what you said isn't really inconsistent with the notion that it was workplace racism

[quartz flicker]

There are presumably paths available through Pharloon that Hornet just never sees.

[austere aurora]

bone bottom and fleatopia

[arctic mountain]

sherma kinda of a GOAT for making it to the citadel, even if Hornet cleared the path for him

[naive crag]

bone bottom is barely a settlement

[grand kayak]

What is watcher at the end even doing there man

[light saddle]

Workplace racism can’t stop you from leaving a job. You can’t be *forced

Nor can you be too weak to do so

[sinful nimbus]

You need a job

[austere aurora]

hornet aint clear no damn path sherma was always there before hornet

[sinful nimbus]

Forced can also mean compelled by necessity

[thorny brook]

I’m forced to be a good person 😔

[light saddle]

Which clearly isn’t what’s happening here. The emphasis is on the strength of the maggots. They’re weak. Therefore, forced also has physical implications

[rancid dew]

Sherma is always there after me.

[arctic mountain]

i mean how was sherma getting past last judge

[austere aurora]

the power of the serenade

[lucid pasture]

aura

[austere aurora]

and the indominable bug spirit

[lucid pasture]

dont think about it all npc have tp powers

i dont know how the fleas are getting caravans through fucking blasted steps but they did and im happy for them

[austere aurora]

shakra when she hears her wife smack the bellhart thingamabob from the other side of the planet

[lucid pasture]

fr

[sinful nimbus]

"Weakest members of the kingdom of Hallownest. Generally looked down upon and forced to do menial labour."

First its established they are weak, then in a different sentence its said they are looked down upon and therefore forced to do menial labour. The implication is that their weak nature is the reason they are discriminated against and this discrimination is the reason they are forced to do labour.

[summer estuary]

how important are the masks in silksong/hk, cuz mask maker sais they are important to live

[austere aurora]

mooshka used his aura to make the double damage worms make way for the caravan

[rancid dew]

When you run out of mask health, you die in game. That should answer the question.

[summer estuary]

it is the equivalent to the other masks?

[austere aurora]

when you give a bug without higher thought a mask they become able to think

[arctic mountain]

masks pretty much grant idenity to bugs

[maiden meteor]

Like when Knight’s mask is broken just void remains

[hushed viper]

is there a lore reason why the citadel made 2 gay robots be the guardians of the entrance for the cogworks AND the statues that tell pilgrims what they must do to restore the citadel?

[lucid pasture]

tbh in mask maker case it seems like it gives him the Jobber Power and he focus on his work more than anything

[maiden meteor]

maybe smth like that

[rancid dew]

In order to tap into the fighting skills of lost Verdania. Which were based around gay bugs.

[maiden meteor]

Cogwork stuff feels like it was built to impress

[austere aurora]

green princes boyfriend did allat

[reef zephyr]

citadel needed more aura

[summer estuary]

ok then

[rancid dew]

I think it's for a similar reason to them building a shrine and putting Seth there.

[arctic mountain]

pharloom had gay robot technology

[maiden meteor]

whole point of Citadel is aurafarmig so pilgrims buy whole weaver bs

[rancid dew]

Pharloom had immortality.

Their tech is pretty great.

[summer estuary]

ok thanks for the explanation on the masks

[summer estuary]

like hallownest? ....

[arctic mountain]

citadel was def experiementing with putting souls into robots for the perfect immortal army

[rancid dew]

Hallownest didn't have immortality for everyone.

[maiden meteor]

is it really immortality if you need silk injections 24/7

[rancid dew]

yes

[arctic mountain]

imagine being the green prince's lover and giving up your soul to make two gay robots and then the citadal says sike we're gonna kill your kingdom anyway and use them as guards

[maiden meteor]

I feel like Conductor was basically strapped to life support

[rancid dew]

He very much was.

That's supposed to be the visual invoked there.

It's not clear why he's aged so badly, but it could be that he's just that old.

Or first generation pharloom sort of guy.

We know that people still age, considering him and the manservant chef guy.

[naive crag]

i open twitter and i get 20 tweets about lace being or not being a child im so tired

[light saddle]

Yes. Exactly

If the paragraph’s initial focus is on the physical weakness of the maggots, which you agree this *physical weakness is why they are discriminated against, then it naturally follows that being *forced to do labor is the result of that prejudice, which they are too weak to defend against.

[reef zephyr]

whats the significance of the whiteward fat blob guy having the same head as the guy in high halls

[maiden meteor]

maybe they’re forced in a sense they don’t really have options

[sinful nimbus]

Yes but none of that implies slavery

Slavery isn't when your job is racist and you can't stand up to the boss

[austere aurora]

thats like

still not a good thing

even if its technically not slavery

[sinful nimbus]

Of course

But the point is Hallownest never had systemic slavery or slavery at all

[light saddle]

You agree that they’re being forced to do labor that they’re too weak to defend against? That… sounds like slavery

[austere aurora]

hallownest used indoctrination and propaganda instead

[sinful nimbus]

Slavery is when you own someone as property and force them to do labor, its not a job

[fair hull]

Little easter egg

[lucid pasture]

cool

[rancid dew]

😮

Life is good.

[lucid pasture]

who tf is reaching fleatopis without grtting 5 fleas tho you have to be kinda evil

not fleatopia but putrified ducts

[light saddle]

Yes, I know. And I’m not at all convinced that they just had jobs

[fair hull]

Also not sure how many people caught it, but there is this fat joke in far fields

[lucid pasture]

they made me stop the 1 hour discussion about whether Lace saved hornet or not to start the 1 hour discussion about maggots being slaves or not ffs

[rancid dew]

I want to see if Big Flea shows up on the quest too.

[rancid dew]

Can you check Big Flea?

[light saddle]

If that were the case, they wouldn’t have to use the word “force” at all.

[austere aurora]

pale king killed enough of his own kids for their corpses to make this infrastructure slavery is not out of the question for him

[fair hull]

@rancid dew too late, turned in

[rancid dew]

You could revert an auto save but fair. Thanks for the easter egg either way 😄

[lucid pasture]

its kinda crazy when you consider that the background in the 3 dimensional space also has many,of them actually lmao

[sinful nimbus]

They didn't have to use the word but they did because its an apt way of describing maggots being an underclass

[fair hull]

That's a broken/unusable bench on the left btw, and the big round guy spawns right beside it

[sinful nimbus]

This was a trolley problem

He didn't kill his own kids just for fun

[austere aurora]

they couldve probably just jumped the radiance with that many kids 😭

[sinful nimbus]

His goal was to protect a far greater amount of people from a far more gruesome death

[lucid pasture]

there are probably more kids there than people in hallownesr

[fair hull]

Also I realized today the reason the bench's in Underworks cost money is because the pilgrims were basically forced labor for the citadel

[sinful nimbus]

Slavery being encouraged by the Pale King would be laughably out of character and completely baseless

[austere aurora]

no cost too great

[sinful nimbus]

Cost for protecting the kingdom yes

Slavery is very different from the vessel project

[light saddle]

It’s an apt way to describe maggots as slaves. It’s redundant to say “forced” if they had normal jobs

[austere aurora]

"what is only a hundred slaves to keep hallownest thriving"

[teal drift]

i've seen bilewater, it's fine to enslave some maggots

[sinful nimbus]

This is a huge stretch

[austere aurora]

AND ILL ENSLAVE A THOUSAND MORE BUGS BEFORE I LET THIS COUNTRY DIE

[naive crag]

what even is this channel bro

[sinful nimbus]

They're forced to do menial tasks because no other job would want them? And the ones that would would've had discrimination in them?

Why are we forcing slavery into this

[austere aurora]

we're not, team cherry is

[rancid dew]

The Underworks is basically old timey Mining Camps. Paid in scrip, constantly lured into spending it so they could never get out.

Did you see the confession machine? Terrifying.

[sinful nimbus]

Team Cherry has never said anything that would remotely imply Hallownest had slavery

[fair hull]

and Loam

[silk dirge]

maggots came pretty close but like

they deserve it lol i dont support maggot rights theyre disgusting little fuckers

especially the muckmaggots

they dont deserve any rights

[lucid pasture]

you are psrt of the problem

[elder nymph]

So Bilewater boss used soul magic

[quartz flicker]

there are some NPCs that just don't have masks https://hollowknight.wiki.fextralife.com/NPCs

[sinful nimbus]

Muckmaggots are a different species smh

[quiet narwhal]

For all the faults of the pale king, he at least didn't seem to treat most of his citizens terribly... at least when he didn't have to

[maiden meteor]

Salubra is built different

I mean she has power to just generate soul out of the air

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah Citadel is where you actually see slavery

[austere aurora]

muckmaggots are just maggots without higher thought cuz pharloom doesnt have a beacon

[maiden meteor]

Salubra was the one to leave cast-off shell

PK is a fraud

[quartz flicker]

I like the implication that most Pilgrims just get sent to the Torture Zone after reaching the Grand Gate.

Whereas the path to the City of Tears actually leads to the city proper

[silk dirge]

i mean on the entry for one of the underworks enemies you see hornet questioning if she should look deeper into hallownest to see if it operated the same way

[sinful nimbus]

Proof?

[silk dirge]

but i assume it didnt

we wouldve seen such an area in hk

[austere aurora]

when you know salubra has some kind of connection with the snail shamans but you cant prove it

[silk dirge]

i think its just hornet realizing shes kinda privileged

[arctic mountain]

city of tears had its fair share of fucked up shit but thats only really after the plague (the canibalism and soul sanctum experiments)

[maiden meteor]

What if PK really had secret torment nexus facility

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet knows nothing about PK 🙏

She's the same mf who calls him stupid for not making kingsmoulds (He did make kingsmoulds)

[rancid dew]

Honestly, I don't feel bad for the snails they experimented on anymore.

[lucid pasture]

maybe not that way but what i think that implies is more so that maybe workers were abused somewhat while constructing it

[maiden meteor]

Shamans did nothing wrong

[sinful nimbus]

Also the same guy who claims those who don't join his kingdom are destroyed as if she wasn't birthed and trained by people who didn't devote themselves to Hallownest

[quartz flicker]

The Crossroads seems to be where most of the commoners lived, but the Pilgrim's Way was a legit path to the capital.

[light saddle]

Again. If it were the case that they could work elsewhere, albeit while discriminated against, they wouldn’t say *forced. Especially in a paragraph concerning physical strength. They would say: “Generally looked down upon and typically used for menial labor.”

Or heck, even if they had said: ”Typically forced to do menial labor” that might give us some leeway that it might not be slavery and they have some freedoms. But it’s just “forced”, full stop

[maiden meteor]

they promised to trap gms and they delivered

Lace fucked everything up

[sinful nimbus]

Forced is an apt word idk really what to say

[austere aurora]

shamans did nothing period they were just minding their own business fucking around with their spells

[silk dirge]

i mean if you really wanted hornet to die then yeah

[light saddle]

We’ll agree to disagree then

[lucid pasture]

and killing some pilgrims for souls

[sinful nimbus]

Like people generally use words that fit the situation

[rancid dew]

The first shaman you meet traps you in her backyard and forces you to clean it up.

[sinful nimbus]

"Forced to do menial labor" is apt for an underclass who are seen as unskilled

[maiden meteor]

Maybe shouldn’t come to abandoned chapel idk

[quartz flicker]

And then the White Palace is outright hidden. It's not advertised to the citizens of Hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

You do know what menial means too right

[rancid dew]

It didn't used to be.

[sinful nimbus]

Because a species generally seen as weak and lowly doing unskilled and lowly work makes perfect sense in that paragraph

[austere aurora]

why didnt pk just do what he did with the white palace with the entirety of hallownest, is he stupid?

[fickle scarab]

theory: rosaries are made using matterial harvested from the karak region. my reasoning: shits red and also there a narrative about environmental preservation with the sands of karak region being doomed to extinction

[austere aurora]

that sounds insane

[quartz flicker]

White Palace was built way down in the Ancient Basin, seemingly to allow the Pale King to seclude himself and his servants.

[rancid dew]

Ants are also red.

[lucid pasture]

the hallownest nationalists are crazy

[arctic mountain]

pharloom made me a hallownest apologist

[maiden meteor]

I mean there’s a sign pointing to Palace and big ass elevator

[sinful nimbus]

Pharloom is well below common decency

[light saddle]

“Typically used for menial labor” would be an even better way to describe it without making it sound like the maggots are enslaved.

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't sound like maggots are enslaved as it is

[ember river]

What maggots did the pale king enslave again?

[lucid pasture]

pharloom is fine bro just believs in citadel everything will work

[sinful nimbus]

Zero

[maiden meteor]

If single dreamgate takes 1 essence imagine what a load you’d need for whole ass palace

[fickle scarab]

it will be my new mission to prove why they're redness is not the same 🫡

[light saddle]

The maggots in general are said to have been forced to do menial labor.

[silk dirge]

im not going to believe in bug facism lmao

[sinful nimbus]

Not by PK

[ember river]

Oh the ones like False Knight?

[light saddle]

I never said he did that

[austere aurora]

there is no slavery in hallownest

[ember river]

It's more a theocracy than fascism

[uncut holly]

What I have gathered on Silk lore.

Silk is a version of Soul, Soul is made into Silk. Silk magic is basically Soul magic but it doesnt require a person to focus it so its wireless. Thats why even the Pale King used Silk. It seems that peoples soul are also able to be extracted, and turned into Silk Flies, these are the flies Lace plays around with. It seems that these Flies are the Soul of a person that has been contained with Silk, being their literal soul. These little bugs where put in all the robots and thats what animates them

[sinful nimbus]

Well someone asked how many maggots did pk enslave

The answer is zero

[ember river]

Pretty sure the robots were animated through runes like PK constructs

[lucid pasture]

the ants field in far fields is so beautiful btw it was so nice entering there and finding a place somewhat unaffected by citadel because of karmelita shield. i love that place

[uncut holly]

The Silk Flies that Lace conducts seem to be lost Souls, as in literal Souls somehow extracted with Silk

[light saddle]

Yes, we can agree on that

[uncut holly]

So the Pale King Constructs also use Silk

[ember river]

What?

[light saddle]

I don’t really think PK had the time or care to pass legislations about the maggots at all

[uncut holly]

In the Kings Workshop thers tons of Silk Spools in the background

[sinful nimbus]

Only thing Peak King enslaved was void and Hornet can suck it with her Wingsmould journal entry

[uncut holly]

Its full of Silk Spools

[ember river]

No, I didn't say that, the wingsmould description says it's rune engraved

[fickle scarab]

its a little annoying cause i dont have all their journal entries but there is a narrative here about overhunting and habitat distruction and harvesting of natural resources. there is no such plot point with the ants

[quartz flicker]

Those flies are used as literal lights, do I dunno about that.

[lusty estuary]

Crazy how gms makes pale king look good 💀

[uncut holly]

No not the light flies, the white ones their distinct

[fickle scarab]

jit bruh im dyslexic

[uncut holly]

They are different the white ones have tails

[fickle scarab]

that says haunting doesnt it

[ember river]

Not lumaflies, the ones that show up in the mist

[uncut holly]

We know the Pale King also used a lot of Silk. Silk is literally just wireless soul magic after all, you can Weaver Silk to do things without the need of someone to focus soul like normal Soul magic

[ember river]

They may be the "CPU" of cog constructs

[ember river]

What do you mean "wireless soul magic"

[maiden meteor]

weavers* make king look good

[uncut holly]

Silk is just Soul, Soul is turned into Silk

[ember river]

Yes we know

[austere aurora]

eggman upscale

[quartz flicker]

Can you show them side by side?

[ember river]

But I'm pretty sure those white flies also come from streetlights