sk-lore

[ember river]

Eva does speak to you from the tube

[grand kayak]

I bet those steel assasin guys could be one of the dlcs

They never did show up

Learn more about the city of steel

[dapper willow]

cursed

[coral totem]

ooh eva

do we know how eva looks yet?

[ember river]

No

[coral totem]

awh

[grand kayak]

Well Eva is like kinda dead when we absorb her

[ember river]

Probably like a facsimile of GMS of some sort

[grand kayak]

But she was cool with it so

[coral totem]

does that count as suicide??

[grand kayak]

I mean her life did seem pretty shitty

[ember river]

As much as the weavers we bind

[fair zealot]

oh yeah i just realized the icon for sylphsong is the same as grand mother silk's "halo"

[coral totem]

wasn't she literally the battery of the atla?

[ember river]

Wait are the weavers still alive inside those walls? The inscriptions below them sure seem to point that way

[ember river]

It's also the halo you get while sitting on a bench

With the sylphsong

[fair zealot]

mhmm

[coral totem]

(after absorbing eva ^^]

[grand kayak]

Who else would be a good godhome boss

[ember river]

Also, can't wait to fight the plasmified boss in radiant mode

[grand kayak]

Im trying to think

[ember river]

It's surely going to be FUN!

[grand kayak]

Shakra and garmond duo fight

[dapper willow]

he is so easy though

[ember river]

It takes so long unless you nuke him with the architect crest

[dapper willow]

now that sounds insane

[grand kayak]

I killed him with wanderers and flea juice

Took me about a minute

[dapper willow]

I think you can nuke him with most crests
Tools are just op man

[distant flume]

How come Sherma doesn't get cursed by the silk like almost a lot of Pharloom?

[grand kayak]

Sherma is goated

Im genuinely shocked sherma survived to the end

[ember river]

Silk has it harder to infect people than the radiance did

[distant flume]

In redeption of Myla

[grand kayak]

Greyroot boss for godhome idk

[coral totem]

you talking about the volt filament guy??

[ember river]

Most of its victims were already using it in some form

[distant flume]

I see

[ember river]

No, the alchemist assistant that gets reanimated

With lifeblood

[coral totem]

wait he gets reanimated?

[grand kayak]

In act 3

[ember river]

Yeah visit his corpse in act 3

[coral totem]

should i revisit him a 3rd time

[grand kayak]

When the lifeblood goes crazy

[ember river]

Not the alchemist

[dapper willow]

you do make sure she survives through the journey

[ember river]

The assistant that was dead at the start

He comes back!

[grand kayak]

I mean other than whiteward we dont do that much for him

[coral totem]

icl i forgot how he looked

[coral totem]

deadass

thought we'd have a myla situation

[grand kayak]

Sherma had so many death flags

[ember river]

I'm sad the bone bottom vendor dies during the collapse

[dapper willow]

we open the door
We kill the last judge
Whiteward
Bell beast

[drowsy mortar]

We clear the path so that it’s safe for them

[grand kayak]

Rip garmond

[coral totem]

the whiteward sherma wish had me PANICKING bro

[ember river]

Sherma was pure enough so the last judge would let her in

[coral totem]

wait hold on actually

garmond would be a fun godhome boss

[dapper willow]

But flick survives so the world is right again

[grand kayak]

You actually do get to fight garmond in act 2 and act 3

[drowsy mortar]

She wouldn’t have survived Underworks

[coral totem]

i mean yeah when he becomes voided

in act 2 though??

[fair zealot]

garmond and zaza fight is funny you just push him off the arena

[dapper willow]

I don't think the judges were allowing anyone in

[coral totem]

i musta missed it

[grand kayak]

I dueled garmond in whispering vaults and then he helped me with the high halls gauntlet

Garmond is my goat i couldn't have done the gauntlet without him

[ember river]

I think you can duel him and shakra, but I didn't

[silver spire]

high halls i just pulled the "random bullshit go" srat and plopped down 12 chainsaws

[drowsy mortar]

Also yeah Caretaker implies it’s been ages since the pilgrims were allowed in

[grand kayak]

I didn't duel shakra but I did do garmond

[ember river]

I wish I knew that, I struggled a lot until I found out where the pinmaster was

[coral totem]

dude fuck that gauntlet, on my first playthrough it took me like 20 attempts (I didn't realize i could upgrade my nail, second tried it after i got the first upgrade)

[coral totem]

wait i can duel shakra??

[drowsy mortar]

The bell at the first shrine is what gives them the go ahead

[ember river]

I legit went through the entire citadel without upgrading the needle

[drowsy mortar]

Rip

[coral totem]

i had to be told about it in chat 😭

[ember river]

And I think with just +1 mask

[vivid kernel]

yess, at the place where you fight moorwing

[grand kayak]

In front of greymoor ring the rings

[ember river]

I decided to check out the top part of bellhart and realized that's where the historian and pinmaster were

[drowsy mortar]

Here’s the oversight

[fervent light]

Ok so I’m writing a fanfic and I need help determining why phantom and the other sirens were created

[coral totem]

i needa do that in a few mins then

[drowsy mortar]

You cannot fight Shakra if flea circus is there

[ember river]

I thought it was like HK where they'd be up top in the capitol

[drowsy mortar]

You also cannot fight Shakra in Act 3

[ember river]

Sirens?

[drowsy mortar]

Most easily missed boss in the game

[fervent light]

The ghosts in the mist

[ember river]

Oh wraiths

[fervent light]

OHHHH mb mb

[ember river]

I think they are lingering wills, like the Unravelled boss

Phantom is like Lace

[drowsy mortar]

The Wraiths are projections made by Phantom

[ember river]

Not like the wraiths

[drowsy mortar]

Phantom infused smoke with silk to make shadow clones of herself

[coral totem]

FUCKK

[fervent light]

Ok so phantom and lace are sisters, I understand that, why were they created? Was it so silk mother would exert her will?

[ember river]

Oh right it says lingering thread

[drowsy mortar]

And to also warp the terrain of the Mist

[ember river]

Yes

[fair zealot]

how do you not explore bellhart after freeing it 😭

[drowsy mortar]

Yes they were made by SM

[coral totem]

maybe to have more control over pharloom by having her daughters take over certain areas or sum?

[ember river]

I thought it was just the lower part

[vivid kernel]

they were likely an attempt at a new generation of "daughters", like she did with the weavers

[ember river]

And was "oh cool"

[drowsy mortar]

Lace is a lone agent

[fervent light]

Oh I think that makes sense in my head, she tried to make them 100% out of silk so they wouldn’t betray her

[drowsy mortar]

She does not work for her mother, she is in direct opposition

[ember river]

Is she?

[drowsy mortar]

Yes

[ember river]

I don't think that's the case until the end when she intervenes

[coral totem]

could be that she was originally meant to obey the orders, but rebelled

[grand kayak]

It really seemed to me Lace only worked against GMS right at the end

[fervent light]

She talks about not wanting to let silk mother have hornets

[drowsy mortar]

This is told multiple times both through her actions and dialogue

[ember river]

I must re-read them again in that case

[fervent light]

So lace rebelled but phantom did not?

[drowsy mortar]

She doesn’t want to be replaced so she hates this plan

[ember river]

Oh right

[vivid kernel]

GMS creates phantom but discarded her, and then created lace, who she really cares about because she was "perfect", and so GMS wanted to collect more silk to sustain Lace

[vivid kernel]

yep pretty much

[drowsy mortar]

Phantom does not have that long to live and she knows it

She just wants to die a warrior’s death at this point

[fervent light]

So lace doesn’t rebel for any philosophical reason, she’s only jealous

[vivid kernel]

phantom was discarded and left to deal with the citadel's refuse, i.e., steam and sewers

[drowsy mortar]

Pretty much

[fervent light]

Ok I think that makes for good drama

[drowsy mortar]

She’s designed to be a child and behaves childishly

[fervent light]

I’m making a fic that’s my best guess at an epilogue lol

[coral totem]

where is shakra pre-lost lace fight anyway? can't find her anywhere in bellhart

[ember river]

Probably bellheart or some of the unexplored locations you have

[fervent light]

Probably in an area you haven’t allowed

Explored

[ember river]

Or, if you have explored them all, with her master

[drowsy mortar]

There is one Act 3 area that she has a map for iirc

[coral totem]

i have 100% with every area unlocked though 💔

[grand kayak]

You can get every shakra map before act 3

[coral totem]

unless i somehow missed one despite looking at the interactive map like 10 times

[dapper willow]

better cook like Gordon Ramsey

[grand kayak]

In fact I'm pretty sure its required since trails end is an act 3 requirement

[coral totem]

don't think you can get verdania's map pre act 3

[drowsy mortar]

Oh how do you get Verdania’s?

[grand kayak]

Shakra doesn't sell verdania iirc

[ember river]

Free Green Prince and head east through a secret passage from the craw hideout

[grand kayak]

Its just in the right part of the tunnel where green prince is moping

[vivid kernel]

it's an item to the right of the green prince

[ember river]

Then go to the very end of verdania until you find a tent with dead bugs

[grand kayak]

Not actually in verdania proper

[drowsy mortar]

Ye I know how to get there how do you get the map tho

[ember river]

The map is there

[drowsy mortar]

Ah

[dapper willow]

its an item

[coral totem]

we find it in the right side of verdania, looks like a small camp she may have set up

though dunno

that one could be chalked up to just being a really old map

[ember river]

Her camps usually don't have long dead corpses

[coral totem]

i mean she probably left seeing there wasn't much there anyway, not much to map down, so someone else prolly took the camp for safety and died of natural causes or sum

or they died to those fuckass slashy spiders i hate

[lusty estuary]

Isn't verdania act 3 exclusive

[ember river]

Emphasis on long dead

[coral totem]

it is

[ember river]

Yes it is

[lusty estuary]

Shakra is way too busy protecting bellhart to go all the way over there to set up a tent

[coral totem]

yeah that's super valid actually

[ember river]

And there are ancient husks inside

[coral totem]

fair point, prolly an old map then

[dapper willow]

I guess Mapra is not the only one who makes maps

[ember river]

I wonder why verdania's containment failed in the Memorium

[grand kayak]

Memorium seems like kinda a shitshow tbf

[coral totem]

maybe they didn't know how to properly care for it?? dunno

i dunno much memorium lore

[ember river]

It's just a living museum

[fervent light]

So more phantom questions, so you think she named herself that? GMS calling her daughter lace makes sense, but phantom does not. Do you think it makes more sense if she was named chiffon or linen

[grand kayak]

Yeah and not a very well run museum

[ember river]

Maybe it has to do with everyone going insane from the god they have upstairs

But it seems to extend to before that

[fervent light]

They tried to create artificial environments where they could keep and experiment on organisms in a controlled setting based on that one coral enemy in there

[coral totem]

so they tried to replicate verdania's envirorment and failed?

[ember river]

They made large coral things and the giant mossgrubs

[fervent light]

Where did they make verdant

[ember river]

Pretty much yeah

[dapper willow]

She is just that dramatic
she lives in a giant ORGAN and pulls out poses after every attack like a jojo character

[coral totem]

i wonder why though

[ember river]

I think they were meant to go in the couple empty green rooms near the bench

[coral totem]

phantom would unironically make the organ play an entrance theme for herself (did she?? I forgot)

[valid compass]

zoo for the citadel

[ember river]

There's also a panel that says the verdania containment failed and it was doomed to be forgotten

[fervent light]

I’m assuming that verdania has a very sentitive environment so it couldn’t be sustained in memorium form

[ember river]

It's also ironic considering it's the only dead zone

[coral totem]

yeesh, so wait

[ember river]

Maybe the coral too

[grand kayak]

What even happened to karmelita. Did she just get old

[coral totem]

what DID happen to verdania?? where'd it all go

[ember river]

Yes

[grand kayak]

Is that it

[valid compass]

she got old and fat

[dapper willow]

yes

[dapper willow]

IT seems like the place collapsed

[ember river]

The citadel liked the way the two princes danced and fought so they said that one of them should sacrifice himself and get turned into a robot or they'd wipe out the entire thing

[coral totem]

yeah she was just sitting in a hut rotting away slowly as age got to her, reminescing her prime

hornet basically gave her life 1 last meaning before she entered her mind, fought her prime, and ended her for good

[ember river]

Then the other prince was jailed

[fervent light]

It all died out because I’m assuming the citadel was very interested in their culture and ended up destroying everything in their attempt to preserve it indefinitely

[coral totem]

and they weren't able to properly replicate it, thus ending off what remains of verdania

[fervent light]

Correct

[ember river]

I think they were already in decadence, then one of the rules was abducted and the other imprisoned and it just collapsed

The environment seems way too clean for the citadel to have destroyed it

[fervent light]

Maybe natural factors

[ember river]

That's what I'm thinking

[fervent light]

Like the Karak ocean

[ember river]

A cave collapse above or something

Its collapse probably wasn't THAT long ago since the green prince is still around

[coral totem]

I do wonder WHY they weren't able to though, "verdania is destined to be forgotten" sounds like something beyond "they destroyed it and brought the remains of it to the museum in attempt to perserve it" is in play

[ember river]

The memorium itself is uh

[valid compass]

verdania is cool and all but i wish we got to explore coral tower but we got three gaunltets instead

[ember river]

Basically they were saying they were keeping the memories of these places for all eternity, so when they fall they would still be remembered

[trim vector]

just curious, is there any chance the corpse in the middle right above hornet could be a vessel? Found it in bilewater

[fervent light]

I think it might be because the environment is so sensitive and they were obsessed with preserving things forever, so they determined verdania could not be put in infinite stasis

[ember river]

And if containment failed then these places would be forgotten

[drowsy mortar]

It’s implied Karak, March and Shellwood are too

[coral totem]

or they were too rough with it and ended up destroying the remains accidentally

[drowsy mortar]

Shellwood is weird tho

[coral totem]

how so?

[ember river]

I think it's near 0, considering most, if not all vessels rejoined the void after the events of Hollow Knight

[drowsy mortar]

Supposedly they started diminishing with their hearts when SM came into the picture

[ember river]

Hunter March isn't dead, just decadent from all the infection

[fervent light]

Very by the books “nature should be preserved” story

[coral totem]

i may be stupid what's sm, silkmother??

[trim vector]

the mask seems very similar to those of the vessels, maybe it died here before the events of hollow knight? I mean the knight also wandered outside of hollownest

[drowsy mortar]

It’s only surviving for now because Carmelita was the only living Heart

[drowsy mortar]

Silk Mother

[ember river]

Then that thing would be hanging from there for a long, long, very very long time

[coral totem]

oh lmao

[drowsy mortar]

Shellwood with Heart lore is so weird

[trim vector]

true

[ember river]

I think it's just a common bug, but who knows

[drowsy mortar]

Like it does not fit the theme of the others at all, Verdania should’ve been the quest imo

[ember river]

Heart lore is weird

[drowsy mortar]

I get it for like Khann and Carmelita

[wary plover]

Is there any lore in the surface?

[ember river]

Carmelita I get it, but I assumed the ants would still be going on if the silk infection hadn't settled

[valid compass]

the simple answer is shellwood was pretty hard to forget so the heart thing doesnt matter

[unreal estuary]

I don't think the hearts are actually responsible for keeping the land alive, they were just the rulers

[drowsy mortar]

But Nyleth has like nothing for lore, and Shellwood looks the exact same

[wary plover]

Wait wasn't Carmelita inside a memory? Or did I confuse that with someone else

[ember river]

Carmelita was still alive and we fought her at her prime inside her memories

[ember river]

Seth has exponentially more character and lore than Nyleth

[wary plover]

I don't think hearts are rulers, I think hearts are representatives of a tribe's essence.

[valid compass]

nyleth started shellwood through her heart and it gradually became a self sustaining ecosystem

[unreal estuary]

Are they not the hearts of the kings of each society? Or are we talking about something else

[wary plover]

Otherwise the crawfather would have gotten a heart. Speaking of which, why didn't he

[ember river]

Pretty much, they are meant to represent the beauty and power inherent to a land

[unreal estuary]

Like they are strong hearts preserved in memory

[ember river]

We find them inside the rulers, yes, but to my knowledge they represent their entire tribe

[unreal estuary]

Crawfather's still alive so he doesn't get one

[wary plover]

Craw father should have something like heart of truth, beauty, and hatred

[ember river]

Heart of birb

[open dragon]

I like to think after the true ending, Hornet stays a little while in Pharloom

Hallownest is fine for now, She doesnt mind a little vacation

[dapper willow]

I think they are just the hearts of strong bugs

[wary plover]

I like to think she brings the knight over and comes over when it gets hot during the summer

[valid compass]

i thinks there some heart belonging to greymoor too, after all the "grey" to the greymoor came later

[dapper willow]

maybe she will make her stay more permanent
She doesn't have anywhere to be really

[valid compass]

it was supposed to be a bountiful place with food and all

[modest coyote]

Ants are that good

[open dragon]

And with the new title screen art, i also like to think Lace and Hornet are slowly becoming friends

Or "friends"

[modest coyote]

That’s dumb

[dapper willow]

Lace is Hornet's daughter

[valid compass]

i think thats how it kinda is after how lace laughs in the end like "damn we survived some crazy shit together"

[wary plover]

If that's the case groal should have a heart

[dapper willow]

eh true enoug
maybe you need the funky song to get the hearts

[maiden meteor]

Nah Groal is a fraud

[unreal estuary]

The bug has to be dead, that's why we only go into Verdania after the funeral service

[maiden meteor]

he had to eat other bug’s souls to get strong

[open dragon]

That 1800+ rosary bell house at bellhart is not cheap

[ember river]

Groal is pretty much a less aristocratic soul master

[dapper willow]

except he is still alive and yells at you to get out of his memory

and carmelita is alive too

[open dragon]

Rightfully so cuz omg Hornet...

[rain spindle]

Horner likely became a mentor or smth

[dapper willow]

Hornet is a certified Daredevil

[rain spindle]

Although I dont think it will last

[wary plover]

But Carmelita is alive we just discussed that

[open dragon]

I dont mind if Hornet stays in Pharloom a little longer, cuz who tf is gonna repair all the damage in the Citadel and basically all of Pharloom???

[ember river]

She's alive until you kill her

[dapper willow]

Diving into molten lava in a rickety bell, and then diving into primordial death ooze after pulling a flower out of her memory

[ember river]

Nobody because the citadel was a fraud that ran on slavery and god power

[unreal estuary]

I'm not sure about Carmelita, cause we see the web thing appear after her dialogue, but for GP I think we might be fighting the dead one, the way the dialogue goes makes it seem as if that green prince left, and they both look the same so we can't be sure

[ember river]

And said god is now dead

[rain spindle]

People say Lace is Hornet's family but I dont think so

[ember river]

And most of the slaves are dead too

[rain spindle]

She feels more like an adopted daughter

[open dragon]

Upon further inspection and going through the Underworks, yeah let the place burn

[valid compass]

guys we all know the next "dlc" is actually gonna be about lace where team cherry again has so much fun it becomes and entire game and we get to wait for seven more years

[rain spindle]

Lace does have a childish mind so someone needs to raise her

[open dragon]

15 rosaries per sit on a bench, fuck outta here

[ember river]

Lace has more in common with the vessels than with Hornet IMO

[maiden meteor]

“What a week”
“Lace it’s just Act 3”

[rain spindle]

Thematically yes

[dapper willow]

Yes
Taht is what I'm saying

[rain spindle]

Which is why Horner feels compelled to save her

Hornet saves lace because she couldn't save her siblings

"This creature I wont let the darkness take away"

[open dragon]

Yeah no Hornet is worthy being like a pale being, after Act 3, girly has some GUTS

[ember river]

Also the citadel existed because the Weavers needed to contain GMS

[valid compass]

thank god they didnt make lace an insane psychopath

[maiden meteor]

I mean Hornet killed an unspecified amount of vessels too

[wary plover]

Imagine if instead of a religion based corporation, sherma turns it into a capitalist religious institution

[ember river]

Now GMS is dead and the entire ruling class of the citadel is also dead

Every last one of them

[rain spindle]

She probably didnt feel happy doing that

[woven vine]

Does anyone remember where Hornet mentioned feeling her heritage urge to dominate and be worshipped or something like that? Was it a dialogue with the Vaultkeeper?

[open dragon]

Let the Citadel burn :)

[rain spindle]

The Knighr loving Hornet as a sister implies they bonded

[ember river]

Maybe if you don't buy it all from the architect the architect is still kicking but that's about it

[wary plover]

Sherma be like "that's where I come in"

[maiden meteor]

I feel like she was way ruthless back then

[ember river]

I want to see Sherma as a tiny conductor now

[open dragon]

Mabye Hornet will let Lace stay in her bellhouse and make her bathe at the spa lol

[maiden meteor]

she even says she will have no remorse for killing a weakling before second fight

[rain spindle]

She did say she feels pity for the vessels

[wary plover]

But she is... an insane psychopath

[open dragon]

Hornet, Shakra, Sherma and Lace being the best gang in Pharloom

[native mural]

What exactly is silk?

[valid compass]

it was a dialogue with the shaman at songclave which leads to the silk and soul quest cuz she wanted another way to take down gms

[maiden meteor]

but she had a really good reason to act that way

[dapper willow]

Hornet: "I can fix her"

[native mural]

Is it just like a weaver version of soul to say?

[ember river]

Soul given physical form

[rain spindle]

Shakra probably dips after the game

[ember river]

It IS soul, in a more tangible way than what the Pale King did

[fair zealot]

i don't think she was being entirely truthful

[maiden meteor]

since if weak vessel would usurp HK Hallownest would be done for good

[rain spindle]

Look at her face in sister of the void

[wary plover]

Actually my theory is that it's like "izma's youth potion" it's a life giving thread that energises people but also makes them addicted to it.

[rain spindle]

Shes clearly surprised the knight is alive

[native mural]

Huh... So is it valid to say the weavers were like good at manipulating soul

[unreal estuary]

YeaH

[ember river]

I think Hornet is very much against the idea of a vessel usurping the Hollow Knight, be it weak or strong

[native mural]

Enough to where they made like... Not their own version but

[ember river]

Silk isn't a weaver invention

It also comes from a pale being

[unreal estuary]

I would say it's less like making their own version and more using soul to produce silk

[maiden meteor]

I mean as far as she’s aware Knight is either nothing but broken mask or was vaporized by Everbloom

[ember river]

Weavers are just able to manipulate it, and produce some of it to a lesser extent than GMS

[unreal estuary]

Like the way we see it done those two things seem very linked, since hornet uses soul to produce silk

[native mural]

So... What are the prerequisites to using soul?

[ember river]

I think Hornet is smarter than that

[native mural]

Do you need to be a higher being or of close relation to one? Or is it just something bugs can learn to use

[unreal estuary]

Being of a species that can store it in their shell

[ember river]

Know what you're doing and have some way to store it.

The sanctum scholars could use it to some extent, it's not that hard

[unreal estuary]

Cause it seems like all weavers have that capacity

[wary plover]

Basically my theory is that silk is being fed from the citadel down to people to make them feel life and like they could live forever so people started collecting it, packing it, but also it entangled with the user more you use it until eventually you become controlled by it. I think the silk mother was at first used as a production of silk but eventually she gained control over the people, at least that's my version

[ember river]

And snail shamans can use it to a great extent

[unreal estuary]

But then they all went mad and got corrupted by it

[ember river]

No, they got corrupted by the radiance

[dapper willow]

everyone seems to be able to do that as far as I know so theoretically everyone can do magic

[maiden meteor]

btw do you guys think anyone can get soul with strikes or it might be ability exclusive to PK’s bloodline

[native mural]

So is it like bloodborne if anyone understands it's lore 😭

[wary plover]

Silk...?

[ember river]

Soul

Silk is another form of soul, more easy to manipulate by simple bugs

That's why simple bugs could do surgeries to extend life with it, and power complex machines and even transfer their minds

[dapper willow]

Ithink its just a game mechanic tbh

[native mural]

Is it kinda like how void can be liquid or the gas form we see?

[ember river]

In my headcanon that's related to wyrm inheritage but it's just a game mechanic

[unreal estuary]

Maybe, I guess what I mean is being able to take soul from other bugs, cause yes everyone has soul and has the capacity to use it but not everyone can take it from the surrounding environment and store it within themselves maybe

Honestly I'm not entirely sure

[wary plover]

I think silk is a less volatile version of soul, that is more easily manipulated.

[rain spindle]

Yeah she sees him jn the end

[ember river]

I think void forms are much more esoterical, silk is the form the GMS gives soul

[rain spindle]

Knowing hornet she probably wants to find him but thats just a theory

[dapper willow]

everyone seems to be able to take soul from other bugs in some way
Thats what we see in the soul sanctum and with groal

[rain spindle]

A game theory

[maiden meteor]

Also I just realized what’s the deal with King’s Pass having tablets for Higher Beings

[wary plover]

A game theory?

[ember river]

Not in the end of silksong, I think Hornet knows the nature of the void and that the knight doesn't die from breaking their shell once they have ascended

[wary plover]

Bro you beat me to it

[twin dragon]

Yo so what exactly is the thing that triggers the needolin dialogue at exhaust organ

[native mural]

GMS is the final boss right

[rain spindle]

Why would she know that

[ember river]

The Pale King was a sucker for gods and Hallownest was probably built for them over normal bugs

[rain spindle]

Hornet knows basically nothing about void

[ember river]

Why not

[rain spindle]

She cant even understand how it works in the end

Even relic seeker lemm has a better idea of it

[unreal estuary]

I have a feeling she knows the basics, the White Lady would have taught her at least a little bit given how tied they are to it

[dapper willow]

barely anyone understands void so valid

[ember river]

I think she does know how it works

[native mural]

I don't even think team cherry fully does

[dapper willow]

yes

[twin dragon]

Is it a window? is it a vat?

[maiden meteor]

I mean Hornet basically guides us to get Void Heart

[ember river]

Void is described as the darkness that will claim all things

[drowsy mortar]

She kinda does…?

[native mural]

Why was widow de masked

[maiden meteor]

so she must know a thing or two

[unreal estuary]

But in Pharloom it's not just void, its void and GMS' silk threads

[wary plover]

So here's another theory, silk is not a form of soul, but rather a medium through which soul can be guided or attached to. That's why the needlin vibrating with the silk replays the souls recorded

[grand kayak]

More of a vat I'd say

[drowsy mortar]

She understands enough to go hunt down Everbloom

[unreal estuary]

So of course she wouldn't know about that

[maiden meteor]

iirc some dialogue says that weavers can weave soul into silk or smth

[twin dragon]

A vat? then how come gms created her?

[ember river]

And to know the dangers of messing with it better than the snail shamans

[drowsy mortar]

I’m gonna die on this hill

[twin dragon]

Silk seems to be very alike to soul

[dapper willow]

someting something... masks give people a different identity
and identity that could be intelligent too
I guess she took the mask to be in her fighter identity

[terse warren]

The snail shamans know the dangers, they just don't care

[drowsy mortar]

Voidsilk is not a thing, it is void and silk separately

[ember river]

Silk IS soul

[terse warren]

And hornet is also very biased

[twin dragon]

Is there any confirmation?

[maiden meteor]

I mean WL directly told Hornet that Everbloom is the only weapon their family has against void

[grand kayak]

I dont see how gms making her disqualified it from being a vat. Phantom is said to be breaking down and old maybe the vat is there to keep her from decaying

[drowsy mortar]

Void specifically coats silk, it does not mix with it

[dapper willow]

its fairly obviously the case

[twin dragon]

dont think thats the case, and the big pins lodged in her back

[wary plover]

I much prefer the theory that silk is just something with soul stretched over it

[unreal estuary]

Exactly

[ember river]

I think there is at some point, that silk is just soul condensed into tangible threads

[dapper willow]

they love to gamble and they lost

[ember river]

Early on in fact IIRC

[ember river]

They do sacrifice themselves at least

[terse warren]

They lost because Lace interfered

[twin dragon]

I mean if lace was there in the first place she would've freed her for sure, as phantom yearns for freedom

[wary plover]

Why does the long thin lady just have a field of these flowers

[ember river]

Pretty much

[twin dragon]

So it might be a window

[dapper willow]

oh I thought you weretalking about phantom

[twin dragon]

Widow

[dapper willow]

widow losing her mask just made her insane

[drowsy mortar]

They come from her homeland if you mean Xe’Mer

[twin dragon]

I mean it seems she was beaten up

[dapper willow]

50/50

[terse warren]

The flowers are from where she comes from

[maiden meteor]

I think Everbloom can be made by powerful Higher Beings

[wary plover]

Didn't the flowers come from where lace was sleeping

[ember river]

No

[twin dragon]

no..

[maiden meteor]

WL rejects Ze’mer’s flower because it’s not from her

[ember river]

Those are probably just silk flowers

[drowsy mortar]

You don’t think Hornet would’ve fought instead….?

We would’ve got here one way or another

[terse warren]

No? It got manifested from memories

[twin dragon]

Widow seems to have been crazed from her wounds

But i dont think the pins that are lodged into her back were inserted willingly

[worthy kettle]

what is the relationship between grand mother silk and the weavers?

[maiden meteor]

But WL should have had Everbloom in first place to show it to Hornet

[drowsy mortar]

I don’t believe this anymore

[unreal estuary]

She created them

[maiden meteor]

and she is reluctant on touching one from Ze’mer

[terse warren]

Best case scenario, Hornet gets free, worst case scenario, she gets dragged down with GMS

The plan would've worked either way

[ember river]

I think widow is one of the captured weavers, and was just controlled by the GMS at that point

[twin dragon]

Dont think so, she seems to be pretty conscious

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think she was straight up controlled but rather tortured into unwavering loyalty

[elder nymph]

Silk = Soul

[twin dragon]

That's more likely yeah

[elder nymph]

The good part is they dont weaken their soul when using any of it

[ember river]

Controlled as in made to obey

[drowsy mortar]

This is why I believe Widow was 100% betrayed by the Weavers when she would not support the rebellion

[ember river]

Huh, where is that?

[drowsy mortar]

Secret room in Cradle

[maiden meteor]

she’s already without mask here so it must’ve been post whatever broken her

[drowsy mortar]

I believe it was the Weavers

[twin dragon]

Either the weavers because she was an actual gms loyalist, or she was caught and tortured to shit

[elder nymph]

Hornet has mask

[drowsy mortar]

She isn’t angry at GMS at all and is only ever spiteful of the Weavers

[ember river]

It could be either the weavers punishing her for staying loyal to GMS or her being devoted after being tortured by GMS in some sort of stockholm syndrome

[twin dragon]

Indoctrination does wonders

[drowsy mortar]

So I don’t think GMS is the one who tortured her

[elder nymph]

Oh you mean widow?

[twin dragon]

But tbf gms would've straight up deleted her atp

[drowsy mortar]

Ye

[ember river]

I'm still not sure what GMS's plan was with the captured weavers

[worthy kettle]

why did the weavers rebel against grandmother silk
does grandmother silk still have limited control of her consciousness or silk despite being in a "slumber", therefore it being closer to a restraining?
and also, i heard grandmother silk can use hornet to boost her silk creation speed, but why doesnt the primordial being of silk have full control of it?

[maiden meteor]

GMS couldn’t really do much outside of her cocoon beside haunting

[ember river]

To extend her influence? To free herself?

[elder nymph]

Whoever took the mask put the pins in IMO. I doubt surgeon or another bug could seal away a weavers abilities

[drowsy mortar]

She wanted an immortal family

[twin dragon]

Several npcs mention how weavers are power hungry, hornet herself even

[warm salmon]

thats interesting, so theres 4 possible flies right

interesting oko

[maiden meteor]

I mean Whiteward was basically a Citadel’s silk research facility

[ember river]

GMS probably didn't want Weavers messing with some stuff and they felt constrained so they punished her

[ember river]

Worst of all is it worked

[twin dragon]

I mean, who hunted the weavers down then? Maybe it was before she went into slumber

[elder nymph]

I don't think that weaver stayed by choice

[dry sparrow]

Yeah I’ve seen the greymore and bile water ones

[elder nymph]

Remember, weavers were prized by GMS

[dry sparrow]

If you’re cursed and get captured, tentacles break the cage before he takes you

[elder nymph]

For all we know Widow got captured

[twin dragon]

Weavers also literally made a snare apparatus to capture gms LMAO

[maiden meteor]

she probably controlled upper bugs of Citadel and used them to send orders

[twin dragon]

weavers had it coming

[quartz flicker]

Why do you think the Weavers built so many structures on Mount Fay?

[spark valve]

GMS sent out bugs to capture weavers during the haunting

[warm salmon]

what tool to see this btw? can u show me

[elder nymph]

Your point?

[maiden meteor]

Moth cool

[ember river]

I killed the only wardenfly that attacked me so I only got to the slab after finding that secret passage

[twin dragon]

Also mentions of how power hungry they naturally are

[warm salmon]

visual studio but where did u got the code

[twin dragon]

Hornet herself says she wants to bind gms and take it all for herself

[maiden meteor]

Weavers are just assholes tbh

[elder nymph]

What's that have to do with widow being captured

[ember river]

Secluded place where not many people venture
Also finding the creature atop was some sort of rite

[maiden meteor]

we really don’t have any evidence GMS was hostile to them prior to betrayal

[twin dragon]

Oh nah, not arguing against that

[dry sparrow]

Why she the only one to get punished bruh

[elder nymph]

I was confused lol

[twin dragon]

Rest either died or escaped

First sinner was imprisoned

[ember river]

That could well be the wyrm inside her speaking too

[elder nymph]

The weavers who stayed entered a stasis or something such. Basically locked themselves away

[maiden meteor]

Worst thing GMS did was omitting truth of Weavers’ origins

[dry sparrow]

But like… way to punish the only one who followed your rules lol

[maiden meteor]

they died basically

[twin dragon]

Maybe, we have more evidence for her weaver part though

[elder nymph]

Also, we never see GMS use Bind as far as I know

[maiden meteor]

I think rune harp from Conductor says something like “we shall die”

[twin dragon]

SHe might've been tortured to shit, or it were the weavers even

[ember river]

The fact that Hornet's wyrm inheritage is only recognized by the Shaman and the mushroom adds a bit more mystique there

[elder nymph]

It was GMS for sure.

Widow speaks to Hornet like a contestant looking st a trophy

[ember river]

It could be one of the captured weavers and tortured into submission, with her mind broken, or it could be a weaver who stood loyal and was tortured by her own kind

[maiden meteor]

As bad as weavers are Im not sure they would go that far

[twin dragon]

Gms probably would've killed her or have her imprisoned

Like first sinner

[ember river]

In both games they are shown to eat bugs pretty much for fun

[elder nymph]

GMS wants full control. Why kill when you can forcibly recruit?

[maiden meteor]

although why would GMS cripple Widow’s silk production if she needed weavers for something

[terse warren]

There is no hint that it was GMS who imprisoned FS

[ember river]

The "constrained by fear, no longer your meal" sign in one of the weavers you can bind

[twin dragon]

Why was FS imprisoned in the first place

[ember river]

Implies those weavers at some point ate passerbys

[elder nymph]

Like, I seriously doubt there was any fight. Widow probably got molly whopped by thread and her mask was ripped off

[ember river]

Denying the holy nature of weavers I believe

[terse warren]

why would GMS ever hurt Weavers before the betrayal? That's like the opposite of her character

[maiden meteor]

First Sinner was likely imprisoned back when Weavers were still loyal at large

[ember river]

"You told us we were holy" "You lied"

And the crime is apostasy

[terse warren]

What Nyx just said

[twin dragon]

Ah, makes sense

Well not imprisoned by gms, but related still

[ember river]

Imprisoned by whoever was the citadel's authority at that point

[maiden meteor]

maybe Widow was actually way too resistant for GMS to control her and so she decided to completely break her instead

[spark valve]

Not necessarily

[twin dragon]

Not sure if she's conscious during her slumber, but for her to basically be possesing people for no reason

[spark valve]

the citadel is both church and cage, the fact that they felt stifled by gms and put her to sleep doesn't necessarily mean the weavers didn't still revere her, or that they would allow heresy wrt their own origins

[twin dragon]

kinda says otherwise

[elder nymph]

I doubt Lace was a first time success

GMS wanted a daughter really badly

[ember river]

Weavers are shown to have a VERY high opinion of themselves

[terse warren]

And that's what Weavers were before the betrayal

[elder nymph]

They were not birthed from GMS

[ember river]

To the point where even Herrah found it a bit extreme

[elder nymph]

Its not the same

[twin dragon]

Why did gms fall asleep anyways

[ember river]

Weavers did it

[spark valve]

Weavers made her

[elder nymph]

I think creating Lace did it to her

[twin dragon]

How so? where is it stated

[elder nymph]

But I have nothing to back that

[ember river]

...why

[distant flume]

Any tl;dr about the lore of Pharloom? What I'm reading looks interesting

[twin dragon]

that contradicts the point of her character

[elder nymph]

Lace is a being made out of 100% Silk. Even Hornet is like THATS CRAZY

[somber temple]

BEATING SETH IN JUGGLE IS HARDER THAN ANY BOSS OAT

[twin dragon]

Where is it stated that weavers put gms to sleep

[maiden meteor]

Weavers are ass

[elder nymph]

The weaver who banged the pale King is alright

[spark valve]

Mask maker dialogue states the citadel was used to keep her dormant and Eva talks about the snare setter being a smaller version of something else they made

[distant flume]

Bruh Great Mother Silk is a joke next to the Radiance and all the other SS bosses

Last Judge and First Sinner took me more attempts than GMS

[elder nymph]

GMS is alright for a boss. The 1v1 duels are the show steelers though. Lace, Phantom, etc

[ember river]

1. The GMS settled there and made Weavers as her predilect species
2. Weavers eventually rebelled against the GMS and put her to sleep, then fucked off elsewhere
3. New bugs took over the citadel. They used GMS's silk extensively to improve their health, strength, and extend their life
4. The GMS started waking up and pretty much took direct control of the citadel's leadership (the ones who used silk the most), then the rest of the citadel, then started pilgrims

[twin dragon]

Kinda looks like the cocoon is made from her own silk

[twin dragon]

Esp since she literally does that in the true ending

[spark valve]

it may be

[distant flume]

I see

[rain spindle]

So

[ember river]

Weavers are pretty much powerhungry assholes

[distant flume]

And how did Hornet got trapped?

[twin dragon]

So they DID usurp her

[rain spindle]

What exactly are mask makers

[twin dragon]

So who hunted down the weavers?

[distant flume]

Reminds me a lot to the Radiance tho

[ember river]

They sent a Full Chamber (I assume it's pretty much a regiment) to get her from Hallownest

Then put her in a special Runed Cage

[elder nymph]

Spiders aren't normally buddies....

[maiden meteor]

Also it seems that at first Weavers’ song sustained GMS instead

[distant flume]

Herrah was a weaver and decided to flee to Hallownest?

[spark valve]

gms way later when she was mind controlling the citadel

[twin dragon]

Seems like it

[distant flume]

That's why she lost most of her powers from HK?

[elder nymph]

Worship plays a big role in both HK games

[maiden meteor]

I suppose if certain song can sustain GMS than a different one could lull her to sleep

[ember river]

The weavers? Nah, GMS has some similarities in the mind control but it's implied all higher beings, or pale beings at least, can exert that thrall to some extent

[ember river]

Probably, it's kinda just gameplay though

[elder nymph]

The mains reason the big thing does what do is generally worship.

Pale King wanted to be worshipped. GMS too

[maiden meteor]

We have no evidence GMS controlled any bugs prior to Haunting

[elder nymph]

Didn't GMS make Lace before the departure?

[maiden meteor]

and Haunting is basically means to free herself

[twin dragon]

So she was using what she could to basically puppet the entire kingdom

[ember river]

To be fair Radiance wasn't infecting people until the Pale King stole her tribe

[spark valve]

yeah

[twin dragon]

And i assume phantom got trapped in the exhaust organ by the bugs of the citadel

[distant flume]

I was kinda expecting the final boss to be a puppeteer way before SS released

[maiden meteor]

Nah she was assigned here

[ember river]

Also Pharloom was built from the ground up as a kingdom benefitting from the sleeping god

[spark valve]

not really clear when or how she ended up there

[ember river]

Their entire symbol is the cradle prison for her

[distant flume]

Wasn't that far off

[twin dragon]

Judging by her needolin dialogues doesnt seem it was by will

[twin dragon]

She desperately wants to be free

[maiden meteor]

free from living

[twin dragon]

Aint no way she wasnt forced in some way

[dapper willow]

Imagine being an amazing swirdsman and your job is waste management

[elder nymph]

"Decisive end in combat over a slow decline"

[maiden meteor]

Phantom basically begged Hornet to free them from their withering end

[twin dragon]

also seems like lace visited her once

Couldn't she have freed her?

[dapper willow]

Maybe she didnt want to kill her for once

[elder nymph]

Lace has 0 interest in anything below

[ember river]

I think the one talking to the sister was phantom talking to lace

Phantom's the one lamenting from fading away into dust

[dapper willow]

Except hornet

[ember river]

That's his entire theme

[twin dragon]

The entire thing about lace is wondering why the fuck she exists

[distant flume]

Btw, has anyone datamined the exact criteria for act 3? Tried asking in ss help several times but I keep getting different information each time I look it up

[twin dragon]

100% it was lace who talked

[spark valve]

they both do that

[maiden meteor]

I think once Phantom began withering GMS just discarded them as failure and tasked them with guarding Organ

[dapper willow]

Do all the quests
Thats how it worked for me

[twin dragon]

She was in exhaust organ though

[ember river]

I think complete restoration tasks in Songclave, and have the flea caravan move to fleatopia

Also unlock the cradle

Not sure if you need to complete some other task but definetely not all wishes

[elder nymph]

She probably went everywhere once. But obviously doesnt care to DO anything about anything

[ember river]

I still had plenty of unfulfilled wishboard wishes and could trigger it no problem

[twin dragon]

I mean lace WOULD have compassion for her sister

[ember river]

Flea caravan is a requirement though

[distant flume]

[distant flume]

I did it

[ember river]

Do you have any remaining wishes in songclave?

[distant flume]

No

[elder nymph]

In the loosest of ways they are sisters. HK and Hornet have more making them siblings.

[ember river]

Hm

[dapper willow]

She sounds pretty depressed sometimes

[ember river]

Maybe pick up the soul from groal?

[distant flume]

Missing some maps

[ember river]

I did have it but I'm not sure if you need it

[twin dragon]

Yeah, but lace seems to acknowledge that

[ember river]

Maps don't count to my knowledge

[distant flume]

Will look it up later

[elder nymph]

I think Lace at the start is trying to figure out what's so damn special about Hornet

[distant flume]

I see, will try doing whatever I can think of then

[ember river]

Well, she's half weaver and half wyrm

[elder nymph]

And GMS wants her bad

[distant flume]

Or seeing if there's a mod for that after exhausting my options

[elder nymph]

Lace is like Am I not good enough mom?

ALSO SHERMA IS A DEMON

[twin dragon]

Btw, the orders to capture hornet and other weavers seem to have been written, so they prob were not GMS's orders

[distant flume]

How did they know abt Hornet to begin with?

[spark valve]

REQUIRED QUESTS

||Flexile Spines (hunt for spine cores)
Bone Bottom Repairs (bb repair 1)
A Lifesaving Bridge (bb repair 2)
Crawbug Clearing (kill crows for scarecrow)
Building Up Songclave (sc repair 1)
Strengthening Songclave (sc repair 2)
Restoration of Bellhart (bh repair 1)
Bellhart's Glory (bh repair 2)
Trail's End (shakra final quest)
Balm for the Wounded (rescue sherma)||

WORLD STATE

||Fleatopia
Double Jump
Lace Refight
House Key
17 optional quests completed||
allegedly

[ember river]

What I did to trigger it is:
-Get groal soul
-Complete most/all songclave tasks
-Complete restoration of all settlements
-Flea caravan reached the ducts

[elder nymph]

That I'm not sure is explained

[ember river]

You need the scarecraw?

[ember river]

It's not explained how they learn about the weavers

[twin dragon]

you sure it was GMS? it seems like the orders for her capture were written

[ember river]

They probably send out scouts

[distant flume]

Like, sure, Hornet is quite a candidate, but how the hell were they able to trap her so easily? Weavers did exists in Hallownest, Herra, but like, Hornet is half higher being

[elder nymph]

GMS was in control at that point. Even Hornet states as such

[ember river]

We don't really know how the GMS control works

Maybe it's more like suggestions than puppeteering

Haunted bugs seem to keep working relatively normally

[elder nymph]

Look up the veiled bug Diary entry for the beastiary

[twin dragon]

Why write the orders, then

[plush spoke]

normal ending is kinda funny cuz hornet got kidnapped to another kingdom but then returns to hallownest as a god

[elder nymph]

Hornet thought they were clever

Nope, hive monded

[twin dragon]

Orders r written though, several, at the cradel p sure

[ember river]

What veiled bug

[twin dragon]

She has absolute control, wouldnt see why writing them would be a necessity

[elder nymph]

??????

[ember river]

Yes, orders are all written, and you can find Hornet's order as a choral order

[elder nymph]

Only the thousands of veiled... you know what nvm

[ember river]

What are you even saying

[distant flume]

Was Hornet always being trapped by snails? Afaik she was in the early trailer

But apparently changed

[ember river]

The bugs that carried her in the starting sequence were normal citadel bugs I think

[twin dragon]

Why would mind controlled bugs feel like writing her orders

[twin dragon]

Basically a hivemind

[distant flume]

[grand kayak]

I mean that was a long time ago. Lots of stuff from the reveal trailer is different or changed. Like the coral and ant areas got shrunk down. And the hermet crab village with the barnacles. And the steel assasins aren't in the full game

[ember river]

Singular will isn't necessarily a hivemind

[distant flume]

Gonna be dlc likely

[elder nymph]

You got the idea though. No shit they aren't the bees

[ember river]

Hivemind also implies communication from within, generally not verbally

[distant flume]

I picture them like puppets

[ember river]

So they were out following the GMS's will

[distant flume]

That's basically how enemies turn aggressive towards us

[grand kayak]

I definitely think the steel assasins will be in the dlc but I dont have much hope for the ant and coral areas since they still appear in the game regardless of how much lesser they are

[ember river]

Then someone found Hornet and reported it to their superiors, whose goals were perfectly alligned, and then organized the operation

[elder nymph]

Surprised people got hung up on hivemind

[ember river]

They still had to communicate it to their underlings

[ember river]

If you use a word with a meaning don't be surprised when people interpret its meaning

[glossy badger]

Words don't have meaning

[elder nymph]

Singular will isn't the exact same as a hivemind but it wasn't far off either.

[glossy badger]

Peepeepoopoofart

[elder nymph]

If we wqnt to grt right down to it

But it isnt exact.

Besides, I used the term hivemind because singular will wasn't in my brain. I then posted the diary entry

Idk you tell me folks
Hive Mind:
Individual Identity: Subsumed into the collective. Individuals are often referred to as "drones" or "vessels," with no personal identity.

Singular Will:
Individual Identity: Maintained, though potentially suppressed. Individuals act in concert but may still have separate thoughts and personalities

TC wrote singular will so it's singular will. I was not wrong.

[glossy badger]

Actually

[elder nymph]

Something about the Green Prince bugs me. Why would a nation crown two Princes from different parents

[glossy badger]

You're right they can be heard singing ot talking to eachother

[upper copper]

What is hornet’s favorite animal?

[grand kayak]

She loves the fluffy bugs. Maybe the giant flea

[glossy badger]

Definitely giant flea

[dapper willow]

not the weirdest government we have seen

[plush spoke]

did sherma die (pls no)

[elder nymph]

Not "animal" but my pick

[grand kayak]

I mean they were married right? Could've just been joining the houses

[elder nymph]

Lmao

[grand kayak]

Shockingly no

[glossy badger]

Somehow he didn't

[elder nymph]

Were they married?

[plush spoke]

yay

[grand kayak]

I guess we dont know if they were married just that they were lovers

[plush spoke]

why did yall say it like its suprising what happened

[grand kayak]

But it would make sense if they were both ruling a kingdom together for them to be wed

[plush spoke]

did i miss any part of the story

[elder nymph]

Green Prince is a suave looking mofo

Dude got dance moves

[upper copper]

I swear, this game is the typa game to kill off an innocent child

[glossy badger]

Yes

Also myla

[upper copper]

Myla

[grand kayak]

Sherma just really seemed like he was going to die. He's too precious and likable

[plush spoke]

did things not end after true ending?

[elder nymph]

This game is pro abortion. Rip cursed ending

[glossy badger]

Did you fight lost garmond

[elder nymph]

(Going for cursed ending for the possible title screen)

[plush spoke]

what part did sherma almost die

[plush spoke]

yea i did

[grand kayak]

I mean i was certain sherma was going to die when he went to whiteward

[elder nymph]

Sherma will not die because Sherma is evil

[glossy badger]

Whiteward

[plush spoke]

oh the part where we looked for him?

[elder nymph]

Yeah

[plush spoke]

i mean the people we're saving in these types of quests are all close to death right

[glossy badger]

Yeah

[elder nymph]

I tried to ignore Sherma. In all regards. Who do you think I see chilling at Pilgrims Rest

[dapper willow]

The hollow knight games are shockingly generous towards reasonable people
Bosses who are willing to give up and can talk to you don't tend to die lol

[glossy badger]

But a bunch of npcs die in act 3

[plush spoke]

sigh

sherma too cute too precious

[glossy badger]

The cute ladybird that does the throwing knives game:(

I hope they survived

[grand kayak]

I really dont think killing green prince was all that necessary

[dapper willow]

I'm sorry

[glossy badger]

It wasn't

[elder nymph]

Its a fun fight and Verdania is pretty

[dapper willow]

I didn't think green prince will die if I fight him in his dream

[plush spoke]

wait if killing him in that imaginary world kills him in the real world then will steel soul end if we die in that world

[elder nymph]

Oh, he is the one who got uppity

[glossy badger]

Her singing was so cute when you played the needolin😭

[grand kayak]

What even is different between clover and cogwork dancers. I feel like they should be more different as fights

[dapper willow]

act 3 is cruel

[grand kayak]

Its kinda just the tornado attack

[silk dirge]

wait is that the luck dude

[grand kayak]

I like that the true ending has a generally worse outcome than the base ending

[silk dirge]

that looks exactly like the gambling dude in blasted steps

[elder nymph]

Maybe?

[plush spoke]

her singing is so sad when you play needolin after we saved her in whiteward

[dapper willow]

yes
They could have had more different attacks tbh

the tornado is still cool

[glossy badger]

The only npc who I'm glad died was the shopkeeper in far fields camp

[dapper willow]

What did Mort do to you 😭

[glossy badger]

Yes she was so scared

[grand kayak]

Nah fuck those guys in sinners road extorting me while I'm dying from a parasite

[elder nymph]

Several of the pilgrims are found as you go it feels like. Whi h is world building like a mofo

[plush spoke]

ohh my precious little bug 🥺

[glossy badger]

I don't like paying 30 rosaries just to see him

[dapper willow]

you only have to do it once

[quartz salmon]

You can break his door

[glossy badger]

You don't

[dapper willow]

Pharloom echonomy is truly a nightmare

[glossy badger]

WHAT

[grand kayak]

Pharloom has next level anti homeless architecture

[quartz salmon]

Yeah there's like gears inside and you cam smash them

[glossy badger]

[amber bridge]

pharloom capitalist confirmed /j

[glossy badger]

Also yeah I literally saved their lives so they could eat and they're scamming me

[twilit schooner]

what tablets use this type of writing? this can be seen at the phantoms boss room

[green yoke]

It's a music score, like for a music box

You can see it in the Architect puzzle

One would assume in this case that it goes to the organ

[ember river]

To be fair we don't see what hornet would end up doing with GMS powers

[grand kayak]

I mean hornet seems generally a good person. Likely an improvement over GMS regardless

[dapper willow]

they die in act 3 and give you the stuff for free

[glossy badger]

It was funny when they didn't and people got stuck with the curse

[ember river]

GMS did manage to resist the void with her last strength just to give slightly more of a chance to Lace to live

I don't think she's as evil as the radiance

[grand kayak]

Ok she still mind controlled a fuck ton of people

[heady brook]

hello people, anyone knows whats up with nameless town? is there anything to it or just the memento?

[grand kayak]

Not exactly a high bar

[glossy badger]

She did commit multiple genocides

[ember river]

Wait what shopkeeper

[dapper willow]

good thing I did true ending after the patch

[grand kayak]

Lore. Also shows us that pharloom is apparently undeground

[glossy badger]

I did it before act 3 and got the twisted child ending thankfully 🙏

[grand kayak]

Wait if nameless village is the surface does that mean that mount fay is underground?. Or is the citadel like a hill and mount fay is still on the surface

[dapper willow]

"She did commit genocide but she did help this one guy I really like once so she can't be all that bad"

[dapper willow]

its underground

[ember river]

What genocides did gms commit

[twilit schooner]

oh kay thought it was maybe related to the lore tablet at the marrow which i think is unique in the writing

[grand kayak]

But theres weather? And snow?

[glossy badger]

The one in the far fields camp in that house

[dapper willow]

greymoor has rain

[ember river]

That's just abandonement

If you play the needolin you see that the inhabitants were seduced by the promises from below

[grand kayak]

Actually wait why tf does greymoor have rain? At least city of tears was under a giant lake

[dapper willow]

I guess the hollow knight world has a complex echosystem

[grand kayak]

It also looks kinda like the cut crab village from the first trailer

[dapper willow]

It seems like the citadel and the slab and mount Fey exist in a huge cavity

Like its unreasonably huge

[grand kayak]

Still sad the two water areas were the ones that got cut down. The coral place and the barnacles one

Maybe we get the barnacles one in dlc

[heady brook]

and what is the lore? it also doesn't seem to be the surface, looks similar to hallownest's crown or howling cliffs could be future dlc place or maybe nothing special

[grand kayak]

Hallownest crown is on the surface

Isn't it?

[glossy badger]

Verdania and sands of karak

[heady brook]

i dont think its confirmed but could be

[grand kayak]

We dont actually know what happened to sands of kharak

[digital canopy]

does greymoor ave rain because of sinners road?

[grand kayak]

Isn't the title screen for the nameless village called the surface in the files

[digital canopy]

like it seeps through and filters the water

[ember river]

Karak seems normal decline to me, and Verdania was largely due to the Citadel's doing

[grand kayak]

What tf happened to dry all the water in karak actually

[ember river]

And some disaster of some kind

[grand kayak]

I got the sense the sands of kharak disaster was the oldest one

Or whatever nyleths deal is but nyleth is admittedly much less interesting to me

[ember river]

It just dried up, like these cliffs you see next to a river

[maiden meteor]

Considering Khann was opposing GMS Citadel must’ve done something

[heady brook]

idk for some reason i thought hallownest crown wasnt the surface because then dirtmouth would also be classified as surface wouldnt't it?

[glossy badger]

Anyone know where to find dialogue

[grand kayak]

Yeah dirtmouth is on the surface

Was always my impression

[ancient scroll]

Maybe the citadel just over pumped the natural water to power their steam engines

[heady brook]

youre probably right then

[maiden meteor]

Hallownest seems to be waaaaaay deeper that Pharloom’s surface

[glossy badger]

The surface momento we get from the nameless town says its the surface above pharloom

[maiden meteor]

if we consider abyss the same level which might not be the case

[grand kayak]

The abyss could very well not be a uniform depth

[ember river]

It's still dark as any other cave

[grand kayak]

Or pharloom could be built under a mountain

[heady brook]

maybe pahrloom is on a mountain, i mean mount fay is bacically a mountain

[ember river]

I think the "surface" is still pretty cavernous

[hushed viper]

what's with the people in deep docks? are they people from the citadel too or are they just slaves like from the underworks?

[grand kayak]

The "sky" in hk world just seems generally very dark

[maiden meteor]

would be weird for nameless town to be there tho

[ancient scroll]

Maybe the entire world is earth and it’s caverns all the way up

[ember river]

They are workers, but seem to work in better conditions?

Pretty much every structure you see is related to the citadel in some way or another

[maiden meteor]

there’s probably sky but it might be really damn high

[hushed viper]

if you define as burning heat as better than coughing

[grand kayak]

Or perhaps the "surface" is relative and is still underground. Just in a much much larger cavern

[heady brook]

yeah i always thought that every area in both games are underground because no day/night cycle but im not a lore expert

[grand kayak]

I mean light just appears underground with no reason too

Like what's lighting greenpath

[maiden meteor]

I think real sky might be some sort of light realm like deepest depths contain void

[heady brook]

could be unn

[grand kayak]

We only ever see something that approaches a real sky in the radiances dreams

[ember river]

Have you seen the conditions of the underworks? Paid benches everywhere, ridiculous wages, harder physical labour, smog everywhere, claustrophobic halls and workplace accidents waiting to happen with cogs, steam and buzzsaws

[unreal estuary]

I think TC confirmed that at some point, I can't remember exactly though

[maiden meteor]

Everything in Hollow Knight has evolved bioluminescent trust

[grand kayak]

True could just be a higher beings work

Greenpath and queens garden is Unns land isn't it?

[heady brook]

also in godhome but thats also a dream so that shouldnt count

[grand kayak]

At least partially

[ember river]

The fact that plants are green already shows SOME sunlight reaches down there

[hushed viper]

and in the deep docks you got better free'er benches, at the cost of constantly burning and boiling

[unreal estuary]

Also this world seems to be filled with Lumaflys so there's that

[ember river]

The folk down there seem to enjoy it more

[maiden meteor]

we still don’t even know if bugs are bug sized or human sized

[grand kayak]

I mean it doesnt necessarily have to be sunlight. Maybe Unns light also has energy idk

[ember river]

They don't seem like starved factory workers

[maiden meteor]

tho considering there’s ant sized ants

[ember river]

Well but there are a lot of forests

I don't expect unn to light the Far Fields too

[grand kayak]

Isn't that particular godhome also in radiance dream technically? Or maybe the dream realm is just sky and its not just the radiance

[heady brook]

if there are no humans in this universe does it really matter?

[maiden meteor]

Shellwood is a bit weird cause it was basically created by powerful creature

[grand kayak]

Maybe far fields plants use chemosynthesis like deep sea worms on thermal vents

And they are just green for some unrelated reason

[hushed viper]

ok fair that's true

[maiden meteor]

well if they’re bug sized and kingdoms are mostly located at the bottom of the world it would means there’s a lot of ground above

[hushed viper]

but still are they people from the citadel or not

[heady brook]

i mean godhome has clouds and light but its the godseeker's dream

[ember river]

In fact most of them are rather fat so they must eat well

[heady brook]

or maybe the world is smaller too

[severe siren]

Sponge universe theory

[glossy badger]

They're like big Teddy bears but instead of fluff it's silk

[grand kayak]

Deep docks guys might just have better conditions because they are farther from the citadel and thus further from their influence

Underworks is just uniquely shitty for some reason

[ember river]

I doubt they used that much silk on bugs they considered lesser

[maiden meteor]

also do we ever see like proper growth outside isma and shellwood

[severe siren]

“The surface” is just an exceptionally large cavern in the sponge network

[maiden meteor]

like something that isn’t just moss or fungi

[unreal estuary]

I mean would you rather work next to a light source with protection or in the dark next to soot and buzzsaws all the time

While being told you have committed sin

[grand kayak]

Honestly the underworks seems kinda unnecessary they could totally just make constructs to do that stuff

[dapper willow]

Far fields?

[grand kayak]

Why is loam even there

[heady brook]

for 25 rosaries lol

[grand kayak]

What could they possibly need a treadmill for

[heady brook]

slavery is always cheaper

[severe siren]

#FreeLoam

[unreal estuary]

They require your fait and toil

[ember river]

They are doing it

[hushed viper]

wait but there are those big guys from the underworks but pretty sure that's cuz they were born big shelled

[ember river]

But it takes time

[maiden meteor]

probably to power stuff in Cogwork

[ember river]

Yeah those are naturally larger

[dapper willow]

Its also said they bullied themselves to tjat position

[ember river]

Their entire technology is based on cogs and steampunk

[grand kayak]

Ok but powering your giant mecha citadel with a guy on a treadmill cannot possibly be the most efficient way when we literally know they have some form of geothermal

[maiden meteor]

that’s one guy on a treadmill we know of

[unreal estuary]

They probably just forgot about him tbh

[heady brook]

he most likely isnt the only one and there could be other ways to power it i believe

[severe siren]

Its not that they truly care about their output they just hate minorities and the working class and all outsiders

[grand kayak]

There's a reason manually powered engines were never widespread iirl once actual engines work

Outside of line old timey grain mills

[maiden meteor]

I mean it seems like pilgrims could become choral members

[grand kayak]

But even thay we stopped doing when we got windmills

[dapper willow]

The threadmils were made to punish the underworkers or something

[maiden meteor]

maybe underworkers fucked up somehow

[ember river]

That's where they came from, yes

[heady brook]

so they can lose calories

[grand kayak]

The underworks shit is entirely inefficient and the cruelty most certainly has to have been the point

[dapper willow]

Threadmils used to be a prison punishment irl

[drowsy mortar]

It was cruelty to guarantee loyalty

[ember river]

My theory is that when they reached the gate, the Last Judge would judge them for their sins. Those who were considered clean were made Choir members, those with sins were sentenced to work, those too impure were just killed

[unreal estuary]

With the fact that dying is considered an irreperable sin I wouldn't be surprised

[drowsy mortar]

They only wanted the blindly loyal and devout in the city

[maiden meteor]

I think Underworks is the way it is because no one cared to make it pretty

[ember river]

It's not that

[maiden meteor]

it’s basically backstage of Citadel where normal pilgrims wouldn’t go

[dapper willow]

The too inpure were sent to the slab

[maiden meteor]

so no presentation needed

[drowsy mortar]

False

[ember river]

They could revive people with silk, and extend their life. If they refused it, they would be sinning

[drowsy mortar]

The main elevator only goes down

[ember river]

I think to be sent to the slab you had to have been part of the choir to begin with

[dapper willow]

I dont think they could revive
Just extend

[unreal estuary]

Isn't there a choral commandment that says that somone died on the table and refused to revive and was considered a sinner? I may have misread that

[drowsy mortar]

There was never a “grand entrance” to the citadel that way, the only way in is through Underworks

[ember river]

Yeah, I think they tried to resurrect them with silk, and either failed or they gave up and they were cremated

That's my understanding

There's also another choral commandment that said conductors were going to become robots so there's that

[maiden meteor]

“refused revival” is a really funny wording

[drowsy mortar]

Death is considered a sin because their faith is immortality

So death goes against their virtues

[heady brook]

also whats up with the crazy weaver tech, like its way better than anything else we have seen before, like the telporting elevator

[ember river]

To be fair, some sinners are absolved after death

[maiden meteor]

I thought it was more like Conductors telling their employees to go give up their souls to cog

[ember river]

Servitors aren't THAT big of a deal, I'd put them on par with PK constructs

[drowsy mortar]

Only when it’s convenient

[dapper willow]

The pale king almost has a same level of elevator in his palace

[ember river]

Well, architects did become this new lifeforms

[maiden meteor]

tbf PK did it with magic void stuff

[drowsy mortar]

First Sinner is trapped in an eternal prison until we kill her for example

[heady brook]

yeah but they had guns as well

[ember river]

And soul, the key part of pretty much all constructs is soul, except the crystal golems

[heady brook]

thats true

[dapper willow]

Second sentinel is almost alive
And I love him

[drowsy mortar]

Second Sentinel is 100% alive