sk-lore

[silk dirge]

how do these mfs pop up literally anywhere

[cerulean abyss]

https://tenor.com/view/meme-gif-4654060345501150810

[silk dirge]

how i feel whenever retcon discussion happens

[teal drift]

wait what was retconned in HK

[silk dirge]

like for fuck sake stop acting like you know exactly what team cherry meant with this specific line of dialog or whatever what is obvious to you might not be at all what team cherry was thinking

[spark valve]

a handful of things

[teal drift]

feel like HK is too ambiguous to even have really meaningful retcons

[vivid kernel]

maybe everything in the HK world is made of bells

[silk dirge]

luckily i found a secret weapon to shut down retcon discussion

[spark valve]

nobody cares

[silk dirge]

its called dont make me tap the sign

[spark valve]

doesn't make it not a retcon

[teal drift]

wait what was retconned though

[limber anvil]

there is also a quote to not take anything they say on reddit as canon

[spark valve]

snails knowing about void, herrah being a weaver, way lifeblood works, nothing too major

[vivid kernel]

so herrah is not a weaver right?

[spark valve]

she is now

[silk dirge]

yeah the void heart stuff which is supposed to be a major retcon is way too ambiguous imo

[vivid kernel]

aw shucks

[teal drift]

Don't we find a snail in void in crystal peaks

[spark valve]

no

[silk dirge]

i hate this discussion whenever it happens but people need to realize team cherry does not think exactly the same as them

[vivid kernel]

nah he's in a crystal

[silk dirge]

and likely thinks different things about different lines of dialog

[teal drift]

Is it explained why descending dark is there

[silk dirge]

than what we do

[spark valve]

it's not really there

[silk dirge]

void magic silliness

from the knight

[spark valve]

ddark and shade soul are the knight absorbing large amounts of soul from a shaman which triggers their own void to merge with the spell they already have

[vivid kernel]

yeah the real lore is the friends we made along the way

[silk dirge]

like some people ive seen genuinely act like they know better what "the void" means in the description of void heart than team cherry

[teal drift]

Tbf I'd say the one ancestral mound shaman not really knowing much about void chhanneling doesn't mean the shamans in general haven't done stuff with void.

[silk dirge]

"the void" is such an ambiguous description

[vivid kernel]

i am EXTEMELY SAD that we can't use the second sentinel / pinsteress charged X attack, maybe in the DLC

[silk dirge]

like when i say "the people" who am i referring to?

[teal drift]

Herrah being a weaver is a bit more of an obvious one now that you point it out lol.

[silk dirge]

everyone on the planet? the people of one country?

[spark valve]

the ancestral mound shaman explicitly saying his kind has never looked into void does mean that it's a retcon for them to go retroactively change it

they can do that

but it's a retcon

it's not that big a deal to be a retcon

[silk dirge]

yeah

[teal drift]

I mean I think it's probably a retcon, but also Pharloom and Hallownest are far apart.

[spark valve]

retcons can have explanations retroactively introduced

[teal drift]

Now that I think about it, I forget all of the lore on Weavers in the original game.

[silk dirge]

thats why i very much enjoy that tc post i found about why these "retcons" happen, its simply team cherry expanding the lore and not limiting themselves

[vivid kernel]

also smth that maybe everyone has already figured out: the second sentinel's fighting style is based on pinsteress techniques, that's why she says her kind were used for their strength and then discarded

[teal drift]

is there any more pinstress/seamstress lore?

[spark valve]

foreign spider tribe, use magic, came to deepnest and set up with spiders there, left to return to their old home when infection happened, probably trained hornet

[teal drift]

like what are they

[silk dirge]

they dont want anything to be super concrete which is a really good design philosophy to me

[vivid kernel]

bugs

[silk dirge]

if in engineering you clamp down on a specific design and never consider changing it thats the road to failure

im not a writer but same shit there

if there is a change you want to make that doesnt massively fuck things up and you think is for the better, go for it

[vivid kernel]

i don't think there's much to their lore tbh, they were a fighting tribe that got fucked by the citadel

[teal drift]

makes sense

[silk dirge]

this is how i move into talking about how pharloom has fucking absurd pid tuning

[vivid kernel]

whats that?

[silk dirge]

his ass is NOT running on open loop control

[silk dirge]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional–integral–derivative_controller

enjoy

it sounds complicated but all the times ive done its kinda just entering random numbers lol

probably bc i havent done anything super complex with it yet

the most common example i see used is temperature in your house

say your temperature is a certain degree and you have a setpoint you want to set it to

how does it approach that setpoint?

[vivid kernel]

i mean that sounds pretty easy to deal with when you have literal magic mannequin strings attached to every part of you machine

[teal drift]

yeah most stuff in pharloom is handwaved as silk BS

[silk dirge]

you could just turn the furnace on at full power until it passes the threshold and then turn it off and keep repeating until it stabilizes and thats called bang-bang control but its pretty shit

so you do this complicated stuff instead

[silk dirge]

i wish i had that irl

[teal drift]

in general it seems you can give soul-infused stuff direct commands and it will follow them, silk seems to work the same way

have yall ever thought how sad vengeful spirit is

[silk dirge]

i want pharloom being insane at pid tuning to be canon

im going to ignore the full story of the game to make it happen

[teal drift]

A blob of sentient stuff is created, told "be angry and attack" and then lives for 5 seconds before it hits a wall or immolates its intended target.

https://tenor.com/view/butter-robot-gif-9742176530169385188

[vivid kernel]

they def have some creations that are 100% mechanical, like the enemies in the cogwork core

[teal drift]

Soul magic genuinely operates on this type of principle

[vivid kernel]

and the little cogfly drones

so your pid dreams are real

[spark valve]

those are also magical

[vivid kernel]

aw damnit

[teal drift]

If they give soul they aint magical

also what are yalls thoughts on the father of the flames

[silk dirge]

spread the word silk takes pid tuners out of jobs

this is another aspect of pharloom that is dystopic

[teal drift]

some dude tried to become god by immolating himself and it like.... lowkey worked?

[spark valve]

wouldn't call him a god really

[main prairie]

so brief me out the phantom character backstory

[tepid cove]

Lost Garmond sounds like a Creepypasta

[silk dirge]

i dont actually think pid tuning is a whole job it would likely be attached to doing other robot programming and shit

[teal drift]

phantom was Lace but then GMS said "no i dont like the vibe" and threw them away

[silk dirge]

but why cant i have my moment as a robotics engineering major in silksong

why does there have to be magical silk that i cant use irl

[main prairie]

so they are like sisters? Like how knight to hollow knight incident?

[silk dirge]

i cant believe team cherry would never consider robotics engineering in silksong /j

[vivid kernel]

programming is lowkey silk

[silk dirge]

REAL

[teal drift]

I think they're pretty much exactly analogous to that, but without the void cream filling

[silk dirge]

shit is magic the way it works sometimes

[main prairie]

Ok so they came from silk made entity

[vivid kernel]

it's like the vessels in HK, they were both created by GMS, but phantom was discarded

[neat sandal]

cogwork dancer is full robot

no soul after thier death

[teal drift]

Although actually the knight and THK are born by 2 gods while Lace and Phantom are made by one singular god.

[spark valve]

cogwork dancer has a soul that's like the whole point

[silk dirge]

yeah

[teal drift]

yeah the boyfriend infused the robots with his soul

[silk dirge]

team cherry would never include pid tuning in silksong

[vivid kernel]

aren't they a single soul separated into two mechanical bodies?

[silk dirge]

bc theyre evil

[neat sandal]

what. you can do that?

[vivid kernel]

the citadel can apparently

[main prairie]

yup understandable. So the theme in this game is silk, and grandma is literally the all made silk god

[teal drift]

souls and dreams can be infused into things in HK

[silk dirge]

i want a cutscene now of one of the architects trying to pid tune fourth chorus and having one of its arms just start fucking tweaking bc they made the p gain too high

[main prairie]

Dont mind spoil me this but how did void manage to find its way into this tragedy?

[silk dirge]

🐌 <

[teal drift]

which one?

[spark valve]

shamans try to kill gms by dropping her in a portal to it

[vivid kernel]

it seems like void is literally everywhere rather than just in hallownest

[teal drift]

in act 3?

[silk dirge]

honestly team cherry shouldve made like

banana slug shamans

[teal drift]

The only way to kill GMS without someone simply usurping and replacing her was dropping her into the void.

[silk dirge]

i will not elaborate further bc i think someone might actually dox me if they know why i specifically said banana slugs lol

[main prairie]

Yeah i havent reach act 3 but i already watched the true ending so im trying to figure how void managed to find its way here like they are some form of another god entity

[soft sedge]

3 gods void

[teal drift]

True.

Pale shell with creamy void filling.

Question for yall: is act 3 final boss technically a void god.

[main prairie]

So there are disease god (radiance), void god (knight), silk god?

[spark valve]

not really a god

[teal drift]

radiance is more like the god of dreams

[vivid kernel]

nah, more like a shade on steroids and cocaine

[spark valve]

more like a god of dreams

[teal drift]

It has all the ingredients that the knight had.

[spark valve]

hk gods don't (generally) have domains

[teal drift]

true

a god who specializes in dream matter

HK Gods create stuff that is both an extension of them and also has its own automatic and independent magical function. It's sorta weird.

[vivid kernel]

did the radiance ever exist in the "physical world" or was she always just in the dream realm?

[spark valve]

they don't really have any inherent shared traits other than being very powerful

[spark valve]

always in the dream realm

[teal drift]

Honestly the way it works sort of reminds me of cosmere shards more than anything else. A fallible intelligence linked to a divine power with flavor.

[main prairie]

Im assuming radiance/disease matter has been dealt with entirely? So now void came to eradicate the silk matter now, what comes next? Is the void pretty much consume the power of previous gods or they just destroy it to balance the ecosystem? Sounds like godzilla term

[spark valve]

void mostly minds its own business it will go back to doing so now that gms is dead and her silk isn't creating a network for it

[teal drift]

The affliction the radiance sent upon hallownest was exclusive to Hallownest because... I think she just hated the PK that bad.

[silk dirge]

i still cant get over how someone earlier was trying to argue radiance was a pale being

when i see the radiance "pale" is not what i think

[vivid kernel]

it's more like they tried to kill GMS using void but it went wrong, think of someone trying to kill a spider by setting their house on fire. the fire will fuck shit up, but it's not like the fire wanted to destroy the house

[teal drift]

Void the substance mindlessly lashes out and destroys things, and it latches onto soul constructs as well.

[spark valve]

it only does that to shit that approaches it though

[teal drift]

So all of GMS' silk throughout Pharloom now gets a heavy void coating that makes it even more rabid and dangerous

Yeah the void isn't really doing anything intentional

[main prairie]

sounds like how hallownest had, misuse the entity thus fucked up the whole kingdom.

[teal drift]

I think the burning the house down metaphor works pretty aptly. The fire doesn't have a sense of morality.

[vivid kernel]

which only makes me want to understand how the AC dealt with it

[spark valve]

it's harmless in small quantities and there are ways to suppress it in large quantities

[teal drift]

The void only made things worse because GMS had infused herself through the whole kingdom out of hatred.

[vivid kernel]

the radiance wanted revenge for being betrayed by the moth tribe tho

[teal drift]

Void can also seemingly be shaped. Really one of the less evil god-substances tbh.

[main prairie]

oh yeah i forgor about that

[lime nova]

.....wait

[teal drift]

Radiance was a top tier hater. "If I can't have my moth boys, I'm committing mass genocide."

[silk dirge]

void i feel is the not good or evil force in hk universe

[spark valve]

no force is good or evil

[vivid kernel]

what do you guys think is the deal with the void tendrils? are each of them a single entity, is it a hive mind, are they even "alive"?

[main prairie]

idk it sounds like godzilla to me

[lime nova]

Tell that to Grand Mother Silk

[silk dirge]

the force thats about to push over your chair:

[spark valve]

she's evil as an entity that doesn't mean silk is inherently evil just because it's spawned from her, Hornet is able to use it to her own ends just fine as a morally neutral tool

[vivid kernel]

what? /gen

[teal drift]

Yeah GMS and the radiance are assholes, but that doesn't mean silk and dreams are inherently bad.

[silk dirge]

i think i meant more like void as an entity isnt good or evil

[spark valve]

dreams are just thoughts thinking isn't bad

[main prairie]

im more thinking if the knight is void god itself or he is just kurama inside naruto kind of person

[silk dirge]

compared to other higher beings who definitely are

[teal drift]

Gods in HK tie themselves to specific natural phenomena and are masters of it, just because the god misuses it doesn't mean the phenomena are bad.

[lime nova]

We've been wondering who freed Hornet. Who sent the butterflies...
The first time we see Lace, she's commanding them in a dance, and commenting on Hornet falling from her cage (which butterflies caused)

Was Lace on our side the whole time, and just pretended not to be???

[silk dirge]

sometime we should do an alignment chart of hk higher beings

silk going directly to chaotic evil

[spark valve]

she's not on hornet's side she's just very not on gms's side

[teal drift]

Lace isn't really on our side, she just really hates her mom.

[main prairie]

this pretty much obvious to me the seconds i saw her playing with the butterflies

[silk dirge]

our goals converged ahh

[lime nova]

Lawful evil. She literally built a system of theocratic fascism to oppress. Radiance is chaotic, doing evil via a plague

[vivid kernel]

lace's goal is to stop hornet from getting to GMS, she didn't expect her to survive the destruction of the cage but hornet is just built different

[silk dirge]

true

[lime nova]

ain't nobody say it when I asked who freed her

[teal drift]

Lace is willing to burn the world to the ground just to spite her mom.

[glass canyon]

do we know why pharloom’s bugs are sentient? if i understand correctly, sentient bugs en masse are the work of the pale king, and leaving hallownest removed their sentience, hence Quirrel not remembering travels before hallownest. Now, I wont lie and say the bugs of Pharloom don’t seem pretty one-minded, but they do seem sentient and “higher-minded”.

[spark valve]

only some bugs need a wyrm to be sentient others are just that way

[teal drift]

I think pale beings also create a forcefield of sentience, and GMS is a pale being even in her state.

[silk dirge]

im always kinda curious about this

[lime nova]

Is that actually her goal? According to who? To her? Because she also uses the butterflies to guide Hornet through the mist

[silk dirge]

bc like there's bugs that seem very humanoid like they would be given intelligence

[glass canyon]

so average bug in pharloom is just higher order than average hallownest bug?

[spark valve]

that's specifically a wyrm thing

[silk dirge]

and then you have vengeflys who i cannot imagine ever participating in society

[spark valve]

depends on what you consider the average hallownest bug but sure natively

[main prairie]

it is more obvious to me that she is the only boss that looks like nemesis to main protagonist because how much she talks and plotting like cmon man just kiss already

[silk dirge]

like did vengeflys become smart when pk arrived

[lime nova]

Ok fr tho

[teal drift]

we have like 2 lines of dialogue about wyrms and not much to work with. I think it's possible GMS has a sentience emitting field, given that she and the PK are both pale beings whose god-substance is soul-adjacent

[gaunt anchor]

lost verdania just feels like dlc ( its so beautiful )

[glass canyon]

average being the pillbug guys that you slaughter throughout the game + characters like quirrel who obviously gained sentience through entering hallownest (and also seems pillbuggy)

[spark valve]

they only have sapience within hallownest yes

[lime nova]

Lace was pretending to be following Weaver orders while secretly helping Hornet kill GMS. Why else would she help land the killing blow in the act 2 ending

[spark valve]

there are no weavers giving orders

[teal drift]

she didn't land a killing blow, she denied her mother the pleasure of eating hornet.

she recognized her mom was about to die, and directly spit in her face as her last action. What she didn't realize was her falling in with her mom would cause the apocalypse. Ofc she didn't end up caring about that, ig.

[glass canyon]

sapience is the better word for that ty. If that’s the case, why don’t characters like Mirabelle get taken by the infection? She’s pillbug coded, and doesn’t seem particularly strong of will.

[vivid kernel]

i'm having a hard time finding lace's act 3 dialogue unfortunately

[lime nova]

Fair, she saved Hornet and cut off Silk's arm. Though like, if we view her as an ally to Silk, her cutting off Silk's arm at all is weird

[teal drift]

She resents her mom for creating her. She doesn't really ally with anyone.

[lime nova]

I see her as possibly testing Hornet. Maybe she's done this with other Weavers brought to Pharloom, seeing if they have what it takes to kill her mother

[teal drift]

Imo She wants to stop Silk from eating Hornet because that's what Silk wants, and she'll kill Hornet to achieve this. So she's not really on either's side.

[lucid pasture]

do we have any confirmation that the citadel weavers built was actually involved with pilgrimage shit since the beginning?

[vivid kernel]

in these two dialogues it becomes pretty clear she doesn't want hornet to progress

[teal drift]

A caretaker line implies that the pilgrimage we see today is supernatural in origin.

[spark valve]

there's not really a correspondence between getting your mind from the beacon and falling to infection, it's more about whether you fall for whatever false promises radiance makes which apparently mirabelle didn't (possibly because she's a scammer herself and naturally suspicious? unclear)

[lime nova]

Where are you getting that?

[teal drift]

Hornet proposes that all those forcefully injected with Silk had children with the silk taint, and those silk tainted children feel an urge to go to the citadel.

[lime nova]

I don't see any evidence she doesn't want Hornet to progress

[spark valve]

the pilgrimage preceded the haunting

[glass canyon]

oh, also why do bugs stay sentient when PK dies? i know this is kinda hk lore not SS but im trying to put pieces together here

[vivid kernel]

that's an interesting idea, lace would have the same function in this game that hornet had in HK

[spark valve]

it was an induction process into the choir

[teal drift]

but the supernatural desire of some of the pilgrims is possibly linked to the haunting per Hornet iirc.

[lime nova]

I disagree. The needolin dialogue at the surface implies that it was all just propaganda that lured bugs in from the surface

[main prairie]

yeah this, which makes me think, we are gonna play lace next game

[spark valve]

his 'beacon,' the magical effect that does the whole sentience thing, is just still there. There's a chance it originates from the old wyrm corpse given the 'wyrm becomes beacon' stuff but in any case it hasn't faded at least not yet

[glass canyon]

here’s hoping.

[teal drift]

Im not sure there will be a next game in this universe lol.

[main prairie]

or perhaps, 2 characters because post ending shows 2 characters. Certajn act exchange one character to another

[lime nova]

Correct, the Godseekers say they can feel his presense long after his death

[vivid kernel]

from "i can save you from the trouble you'd face above, i'll just skewer you here and now" and her only allowing us to get to GMS after defeating her

[glass canyon]

maybe not, but i’m hoping team cherry chooses to

[lucid pasture]

well there will be continuations at least in the dlcs

[lime nova]

She's testing her

[lucid pasture]

if not actual game

[lime nova]

This is a very common video game thing. It's the role Hornet plays in HK1, and the role Meta Knight plays in Kirby's Adventure

[glass canyon]

if she supports Hornet and Hornet fails, GMS is gonna get her ass

[main prairie]

since her relation to void, we are going to explore the void world and the kingdom, HK knight and hornet will aid us to our journey to defeat void god because he just caused unbalanced to the HK universe

[lime nova]

Exactly. It's a facade

[spark valve]

I mean she certainly waits for the right time to act

[teal drift]

https://tenor.com/view/im-playing-both-sides-both-sides-its-always-sunny-frank-retires-s10e09-gif-17913970

Lace:

[glass canyon]

I see, thank you

[limber anvil]

um think think hints of the old layout can be seen in maps bellway... https://mega.nz/folder/nu5GjLxD#JB92f7G2YKa1ms9i6erftw/folder/qiJywZgB

[teal drift]

Tammo do you think there's a worm corpse that grants common bugs sentience in pharloom, or are they all just of the variety that's sentient no matter what.

[limber anvil]

there 3 coral stations

[lime nova]

The laugh she does every time Hornet shows how powerful she is, it's very interesting to me

Like at the end of the Sister of the Void ending, we see her laugh in almost disbelief

"This spider just don't know when to quit, does she? Unbelievable."

[vivid kernel]

ok, but why would she pretend to be against hornet? to avoid getting in trouble with GMS? and also, when does she actually help hornet besides taking an opportunity at the last second?

[teal drift]

if we're looking for big wyrm corpses I think the sprintmaster arena could count

[spark valve]

given the fact that bugs seem to be able to leave the kingdom I don't think there's a wyrm body around, plus those things are hard to miss

[spark valve]

way way way too small

[glass canyon]

I mean, not every pharloom bug is sapient, just like not every hallownest bug is even sapient

[teal drift]

I forget how big the cast off husk is

[vivid kernel]

the pharloom wyrm is actually the bell eater guys

[spark valve]

it loops around kingdom's edge a few times and then some

[teal drift]

honestly the PK's sentience field is one of those things in HK that's a bit... weird.

[lucid pasture]

oh that actually makes sense a bit. i was thinking about it quite a bit because i finished the game and i was thinking Silk was the one who built citadel and shit until i went to read peoples theories on internet and saw how citadel was actually built by weavers to make Silk sleep. that made me start wondering many shit actually and i kinda realized i didnt understand many of the game despite thinking I did lol. Like, was the "colonization proccess" where coral and karmelita and verdania got fucked post or before citadel? both of these are generally attributed to Monarchs (Silk) doings within the game iirc, which by citadel being actually made by weavers makes it so Citadel must have existed without too much aggression for a bit of time (outside of like, bilewater? because i can't see citadel existing without fucking bilewater lol)

[lime nova]

I think she's been testing potential Weavers for a while now, all dying to her. She hopes that one will eventually kill her mother, but after decades of this, she's grown nihilistic

[glass canyon]

but it does seem like there’s just a higher population of sapient bugs in pharloom than hallownest minus heightened bugs

[teal drift]

There's no indication other gods have a sentience field, and so many bugs are sentient at baseline that it makes you wonder how meaningful it really is.

Either sentience fields are more common than we think, or the PK is just a super rare case.

[spark valve]

pk is a different type of god from other gods he has a different set of abilities

[glass canyon]

i don’t think she’s the one that kills most of the other weavers brought to pharloom? unless there’s somewhere that states it, but that one room in the slab seems like most weavers ended up dying elsewhere to the hostile pharloom environment.

[lime nova]

Those weren't weavers brought to Pharloom, those already lived there. The ones in the secret cradle room were brought to Pharloom

[vivid kernel]

i think she def wants to get rid of GMS, but she doesn't plan for it until the ending of act 2. at first she fights hornet because she's afraid she'll fail and make GMS stronger, but when we succeed she realizes there's hope (my interpretation)

[glass canyon]

the secret room with 5 or 6 of the labeled cradles in the slab? how do we know they were locals

[lime nova]

GENIUS

[lucid pasture]

and this made me think that either Silk fucked other places with the weavers before citadel was even built (but if so, why?) or people are attributing weavers actions onto her a bit, or the fucking pharloom over part really only started after Silk started the haunting after being put to sleep (i think this is more probably, but it still raises many questions)

[spark valve]

are you sure you aren't mistaking slab and cradle stuff

[lime nova]

Because they were put in prison for sins committed

[main prairie]

weavers have silk powers, wyrm have soul/void powers?

[spark valve]

wyrms don't really have innate void powers

[neat sandal]

yes. in conductor dialog

[vivid kernel]

they weren't, they very explicitly came from kingdoms other than hallownest and pharloom, they mention places we haven't ever seen

[glass canyon]

relatively sure, i ran across it while looking for the first sinner

[lime nova]

Wyrms have nothing to do with Void, Pale King just has an autistic special interest

[vivid kernel]

thank u :3

[spark valve]

ok I think other people might be talking about cradle cages then

[lucid pasture]

what does he say exactly

[main prairie]

right, so they are just another kind of bug.

[teal drift]

pale beings in general seem to specialize in soul-y stuff. Silk is simmilar to soul and PK and White Lady created vessels of soul and PK granted sentience, which seems to be an extension of soul.

[rustic holly]

notably one mentions the 'city of steel' which is very likely to be the place all those weird steel soul npcs come from

[glass canyon]

my mistake, forgot about those tbh. Did those not get fed to grandma? That’s what I assumed the first time around. Where else did she get all that silk?

[spark valve]

they're talking about the penitent tablets in slab not cradle cages

[spark valve]

they probably do

[teal drift]

im very curious about the timeline of when GMS was active and when she was asleep

[lime nova]

She is Silk, but yes, they likely got fed to grandma

[vivid kernel]

oh oops

[teal drift]

because the way you read her REALLY changes depending on when she was under the weaver's thumb vs when she was in charge

[rustic holly]

on the topic of slab, actually
what the hell does first sinner's 'apostasy' mean

[lime nova]

Lace seems to very much not want Hornet to get fed to Grandma

[teal drift]

when does first sinner fall into this, and did she sin against GMS or against the other weavers

[spark valve]

if only because the slab was established I'd suspect first sinner was imprisoned during the weavers' reign

[vivid kernel]

she realized that GMS lied about the weavers being "divine", probably got very angry over her experiments with pure silk lifeforms like lace and phantom, and took part in a rebellion

[main prairie]

now i wonder how PK got the rizz to banged a weaver

[teal drift]

so you attribute most of the culty stuff to the weavers

that makes sense

[rustic holly]

considering her clear disdain of GMS probably the former

[spark valve]

they set up the citadel and then the conductors took over

[glass canyon]

agreed, which is why she tries to kill Hornet early, before she reaches grandma, and again right before Hornet goes to finish her off.

[teal drift]

also in this timeline, weavers pass off to the conductors more or less because they realized GMS would wake up and kill them right

[rustic holly]

alright looks like my assumptions were right-ish

[spark valve]

the citadel is both church and cage, the fact that they felt stifled by gms and put her to sleep doesn't necessarily mean the weavers didn't still revere her, or that they would allow heresy wrt their own origins

[glass canyon]

have you SEEN that crown?

[lucid pasture]

what im most curious about is like if the fucking-up-other-places proccess was influenced by Silk or simply by people in charge of citadel and bugs in general just attribute it to silk for whatever reason

[spark valve]

the conductors took power by force probably eliminating the rest of the weavers in the region in the proess

[main prairie]

https://tenor.com/view/lord-farquaad-shrek-crown-king-lord-gif-17945024

lord farquad and PK are both short with tall dommy wife

TC WITH SHREK REFERENCE

[neat sandal]

sorry. it was mask maker
https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Mask_Maker_(Silksong)#Unmasked-0
in mask maker:

Hornet: The bugs of your land, I have watched them, climbing towards their absolution without the flicker of a thought to what it means.
Aye. But isn't it always such for those snared to serve your higher caste?
Our mortal mob did once act some defiance, unawares maybe, but successful in part, goaded towards it by Weavers' will'n all.
Hornet: You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.
Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[lime nova]

In what universe is White Lady dommy

[rustic holly]

i assumed it was the citadel caste's doing because they seem to have added the memorium to the citadel

[teal drift]

oh huh

honestly GMS seems more and more chill by the minute

[lucid pasture]

that changes quite a bit of the reading on the game lol because i mostly assumed it was Silk fucking up the places

[rustic holly]

which makes it look very 'oh god we're fucking up the native life let's make a zoo'

[teal drift]

Her main crime appears to be being mad about being imprisoned for a longass time.

[lucid pasture]

yeahh

[main prairie]

idk i find that every man's wife taller than her husband is absolute dommy moment but thats just me

[lucid pasture]

thats what im thinking now LOL which brings us moreso to think about what did she do that the weavers decided to rampage against her

[vivid kernel]

my theory is that GMS created weavers as a way to farm silk hearts. the three places where we get them are from a weaver prison, whiteward (where silk was used in experiments) and lace. lace was created by GMS and needed a large amount of silk to sustain herself, so she probably had several silk hearts

[rustic holly]

i dont recall many signs of weaver presence in the memorium and we know that the conductors were maintaining it until the haunting

[lime nova]

Self report

[spark valve]

mass mind control is pretty bad

[teal drift]

that's fair, but those people had spent years imprisoning her

well, their ancestors, but still

[lime nova]

Creating a theocratic fascist government that tricks bugs into eternal servitude and kills them if they sin is pretty bad I'd say

[spark valve]

they didn't know what they were doing, and it's not like she's limiting the haunting to the citadel caste

[teal drift]

GMS woke up and found out her children had created a fascist cult built around her that she didn't even get to benefit from. I'd be mad too.

[lucid pasture]

i mean thats the point we are getting here it looks like she kinda didn't CREATE it; the ones who put the system of citadel into place were the weavers (if we are to believe mask maker words)

[lime nova]

Hmmm, is that truly the case?

[teal drift]

im being a bit jokey obviously the haunting is a dick move

[vivid kernel]

let's argue: who's worse, the radiance or silk?

[lime nova]

Perhaps I treated GMS too harshly....

[lime nova]

Radiance lmao

[neat sandal]

https://tenor.com/view/viktor-arcane-jesus-hextech-messiah-god-viktor-arcane-arcane-season-2-gif-2553838681418716026

[teal drift]

but knowing that the weavers made the oppressive citadel and its system really changes my view on GMS. Them weavers sucked ass.

[spark valve]

sure everyone is bad

since gms everyone who has been in power in the region has been genuinely awful

[vivid kernel]

radiance wasn't fucking up other kingdoms tho

[teal drift]

also

[lucid pasture]

look here Ellie, from what mask maker says it seems like the Citadel and the pilgrimage both started from the Weavers rampaging against Silk

[main prairie]

wait, was the disease happened out of nowhere or Radiance did it? Im guessing PK did nothing wrong but his best to contained it?

[teal drift]

am i hallucinating or was there a plan by the weavers to create half breeds so that one could usurp GMS

I don't have direct proof but a lot of small things made me suspicious

[lucid pasture]

yeah, which is where hornet come into i think

[lime nova]

Was Silk? I thought all she did was steal her children back

[vivid kernel]

the radiance did it as revenge for the moth tribe abandoning her and worshipping the pale king, PK really did his best

[teal drift]

I think in the red memory Herrah implies the weavers will pressure hornet into usurping GMS so they can return home?

[spark valve]

not in any large scale way, maybe the hallownest weavers thought she could or would do it but they don't seem to have actually made it happen in any way

[lime nova]

WAIT YES YOU'RE RIGHT

[teal drift]

the radiance's level of spite is really admirable.

[main prairie]

it just needs one good sentence where they know half breeds or hornet will eventually usurp GMS

[rustic holly]

the infection is the result of the radiance trying to keep herself in people's memories through dreams but it's unclear if the whole super death plague thing was an intended part

[lucid pasture]

it builds pretty much thematically into the game and i think it is a pretty cool thing, like, hornet is actually reflective of how the vessels were created; Herrah made her at first hoping that she would usurp Silk someday, even if it did seem she regretted it afterwards, it makes sense to me that thats a bit of why she would want to have a child with a pale being

[teal drift]

Caretaker's talk with Hornet implies that Hornet usurping Silk is the natural thing to do.

[vivid kernel]

i was thinking abt verdania and stuff, she was mostly kidnapping her kids tho

[spark valve]

herrah like explicitly didn't want that

[lucid pasture]

Do we actuallly know that?

[teal drift]

that doesn't mean the weaver's as a cultural force didnt want that, or that her conception wasn't motivated by that

[lucid pasture]

as i said she could have regretted it after actually having hornet lol

[spark valve]

that's the point of her red memory dialogue, the weavers have all sorts of expectations but herrah never did

[teal drift]

Yeah, it's possible she signed up to have a god-kid, then upon becoming an actual mother, she wanted the best for her kid.

[spark valve]

...Greater, grander... Weaver, guardian, queen... Those are their desires... not your own. Certainly not mine..

[lime nova]

"Oh shit this is a real child that I love dearly, I want her to be happy actually"

[lucid pasture]

Yes but Herrah could have been influenced by the culture as YH said, but after actually having hornet she realized she was being fucked up lol

[vivid kernel]

dads & the cat they didn't want

[spark valve]

her dialogue doesn't suggest that really

[teal drift]

Also what was the deal with Eva. What was the motivation in her creation? Just to create a pure blooded weaver child?

[lucid pasture]

i mean maybe not but i think reading it like that actually is pretty cool thematically thoroughly silksong. it is a game about hornet breaking her ties with her fucked up ancestors in the end

[spark valve]

they wanted a daughter + mimicking gms

[rustic holly]

another weaver attempt at making something that could kill GMS, which they hid away after it failed. one of the rune harps mentions her iirc

[teal drift]

did GMS conquer the old gods or was that also the weavers

[lucid pasture]

Red Memory scene is fundamentally about Hornet understanding how her ancestors somewhat actually wanted everyone to be happy yay and get along a bit but at the same time a refusal of their ways, she separates from them to create a new world herself without any of this bullshit and i think its beautiful !

[vivid kernel]

what old gods?

[teal drift]

Karmelita, Coral, Nyleth, etc.

[vivid kernel]

ooh yeah

[teal drift]

I believe the shamans call them old gods?

[spark valve]

they aren't gods and they didn't have unified falls

[vivid kernel]

damn idk

[lucid pasture]

yeahh thats also mostly where i wanted to get at

when i made my initial question

[vivid kernel]

GMS did a colonialism

or was it the weavers

[teal drift]

it seems pale beings love rolling up and doing a colonialism

there's a joke in there but too much for 2 am

[spark valve]

gms didn't have a direct hand in all of them but it's implied they're all a result of her arrival in some capacity

but that includes the citadel just being assholes like with verdania

[vivid kernel]

hornet mentions that she has a taste for power/domination due to her weaver and higher being lineage, maybe that affected the citadel due to silk's influence

[lucid pasture]

like i wanted to understand it because it seems verdania got fucked when Citadel was already in place, because like green prince bf wouldnt have gotten if citadel didnt exist after all for example. so it seems pharloom existed somewhat "safe" for a time when Citadel existed but did the weavers fuck it up? or was it after the weavers left and by the conductors? i would say it could be by the haunting, but i remember the green prince also saying that happened before the haunting at least

[spark valve]

I don't think that's true in any magical sense I just think it's part of the thesis of the game that when people claim power they abuse it

[lucid pasture]

and how much of it was influenced by Silk herself

[vivid kernel]

yeah i like your interpretation better

[spark valve]

of the citadel that is

it's true of hornet

but her nature is malleable and binding gms might not be a great idea for that reason

[vivid kernel]

as tammo said, everyone that ever had power in the citadel did some fucked up things lol

[lucid pasture]

truuue its just that i think many things in the game are attributed to THE MONARCH which would imply an actual action by Silk herself, but i wonder how that works. now i remembered that even Hornet says verdania got fucked because of SILK influence but i wonder how exactly she meant that

[covert hollow]

Pretty much every single being in mild position of power did screwed up things

[spark valve]

A lot of the time the game sort of talks about it the citadel as being an extension of gms’s reign even when she isn’t calling the shots, like the conductor’s line about how their rule was false and only one monarch truly clutched the kingdom

[lime nova]

Yoooo it's like real life

[spark valve]

It’s all part of how the initial problem was gms centralizing power in Pharloom in the first place

[lime nova]

Like when a mildly successful minecraft youtuber hits it big and suddenly they like 14 year olds

[lucid pasture]

thats somewhat true yeah

[lime nova]

power corrupts

[sage flame]

If you don’t help the alchemist in part 2 does worm ways still get infested?

[teal drift]

is GMS sorta like the Omelas child but instead of it being a utopia its hell

[limber anvil]

anyone want to know this things name?

[lime nova]

feyforn

[spark valve]

Fayforn

[limber anvil]

yup

[rustic holly]

i would assume she had some minor influence upon them via silk even before she went all in on haunting

[lime nova]

Were you... doing trivia?

[lucid pasture]

silk was like "i will influence you a little bit to fuck up those gay princes from verdania btw"

evil..

[rustic holly]

homophobia so wild she ruins a gay couple while comatose

[vivid kernel]

i think GMS is more like azathoth from the lovecraft myhtos, she has to be kept asleep and tended to or there will be catastrophic consequences

[vivid kernel]

she gave trobbio a job tho

[covert hollow]

If she doesn't have love no one will

[teal drift]

Do we know why some bugs are unhaunted also

like the servant who wants the foods

or the pilgrims

[spark valve]

It seems like she just hasn’t haunted some things yet

[teal drift]

GMS lazy as heck

[rustic holly]

they didnt get silk surgeried and neither did their ancestors
that or she just hadnt gotten around to it

[spark valve]

She’s sleepy

[teal drift]

loam not even worth haunting

[lucid pasture]

alsoyeah the certainly kinda makes it seem impossible she would do that with that reason but idk it still seems pretty plausible that she would be willing to go into an eternal dream to have a child because of that.

[lime nova]

Does music help you resist the haunting?

[teal drift]

what if the haunting isn't even intentional she's just eepy and her neurons are firing

GMS innocent arc

[vivid kernel]

i think it's the opposite, music is tied to controlling silk stuff

[lucid pasture]

it happens ong

[vivid kernel]

i'll pull up a message i sent earlier hol up

[spark valve]

Weavers have a hard time reproducing, if she wanted a daughter at all that might’ve been her only path

[lime nova]

I see!

[spark valve]

It can be used to help or hinder it

[teal drift]

Do we know why they reproduce weird. Part of me just wants to say "it's cause they're all women so pure blooded children aren't possible," but I think it's different than that.

[spark valve]

Widow uses music to direct the haunting in bellhart, but it can also be used to disrupt it since that’s what keeps gms dormant

[spark valve]

No, Eva calls it a curse but that’s probably not entirely literal

[vivid kernel]

when you use the weaver harp tool, you sort of hijack haunted enemies and force them to sit still and sing, like what happened in bellhart

[teal drift]

Maybe GMS hit the weavers with Eve's curse but times ten. They kept eating apples.

[lucid pasture]

id say it still is probably related to how herrah wanted a child that extremely exactly because she wanted someone to change things up a bit but yeah maybe not so directly as to go back and kill silk

[vivid kernel]

i feel like it's because weavers aren't born, but transformed from regular bugs by GMS

[teal drift]

Also, theyre my favorite bosses so I'm glad they didn't do this, but why didn't first sinner and widow just help hornet instead of jumping her. Feels kinda like they could have found some common interests.

why didnt the 3 of them have coffee

this is a dumb question if i read their boss dialogue i would be reminded, but it kinda feels like they coulda worked smth out

[spark valve]

Widow is serving gms and first sinner is dead and you fight her as a memory which may serve as a sort of test to inherit her power

[lucid pasture]

I think widow was just like extremely insane and believed in Silk all the way through

First sinner is like just a dream and she was the boss fight was hornet training arc to give her runes ong

[teal drift]

widow is the true prophet of GMS everyone else is a fraud

[sharp hawk]

Widow was forced into servitude to GMS with the pins in her back restraining personal silk usage iirc. She was forced to follow GMS orders

Not sure who put the pins in her back tho - whiteward?

[vivid kernel]

i understood the first sinner fight as a duel in the real world, which is why you don't leave a cocoon behind when you lose the boss fight. the same thing happens with shakra and other "friendly" fights

[plush bridge]

Yeah, it felt like the Sinner was simply testing you.

[lucid pasture]

OH YEAH one thing which made me also start thinking about what made citadel work and shit was the fact that phantom was kinda an integral part of citadels workings (playing organs) but he shouldnt be there since before the haunting or before silk started waking up at least should he?

[rustic holly]

i haven't found conclusive evidence but this seems likelier than the weavers being responsible for the mask breaking and needles in her

[spark valve]

She would’ve predated the citadel

[teal drift]

also was widow mutilated by GMS or was that the citadel

[spark valve]

Could be either

[vivid kernel]

probably, those pins are very similar to these injector pins that you find in whiteward

[teal drift]

feel like either makes sense but im not sure what motive GMS would have in mutilating her top lieutennant

but GMS isn't exactly chill

[lucid pasture]

I dunno about being forced honestly - it seems to me like she was one of the few weavers who actually believed in GMS, GMS tortured her anyways because like she would obviously not trust a weaver and wanted to make her submissive, which obviously mindbrokens widow a bit but i think widow "willingly" made herself a silk slave

[teal drift]

it makes more sense that after the conductors turned out the weavers, they mutiliated the only one who stuck around to weaken her standing?

[vivid kernel]

and also to extract her silk maybe?

[rustic holly]

it could be widow wasn't loyal to begin with and the mask break (which we know is important for a bug's identity) was basically a setup for brainwashing

[sharp hawk]

Yeah. Classic whiteward moment that place is actually horrifying

[gaunt anchor]

im silking it right now

[teal drift]

also her name.... definitely implies something but idk who her husband would be lol

[lucid pasture]

her mask that she lost 🥀

[teal drift]

dead husband/wife but whom is it

[rustic holly]

i think its just widow like the spider

[teal drift]

t could be that simple yeah

[rustic holly]

double meaning might be the case but theres no sign of it

[neat sandal]

"It is unknown exactly who performed the forcible removal of Widow's mask and the binding of her Silk. The most probable candidates are the Weavers themselves, as the tribe had turned on Grand Mother Silk, while Widow seems to have remained devout or had later on rejected the Weavers."
take from wiki
sound more right to me

[teal drift]

oh I agree

[rustic holly]

why wouldnt the weavers just kill her tho

[lucid pasture]

yeah

[teal drift]

killign a weaver might have been heresy back then

[rustic holly]

its not like they need her silk

[lucid pasture]

idt the weavers would just torture her like that and let her live

[teal drift]

there's a finite number of them, they're holy, etc.

[vivid kernel]

talking abt whiteward, i'm thinking a lot abt the unraveled

[sharp hawk]

I saw widows name as like. Referring to how she was seperated from the other weavers. If the weavers did reject her then they probably gave her the name?

[vivid kernel]

he's one of two conductors that we see in game

i think he's like that because he's a failed experiment at eternal life through silk injections

[teal drift]

Ruling classes aren't always logical about this type of thing. Through history, nobles who caused a lot of trouble were punished but not killed because the thought of executing a noble seemed wrong and classless.

[rustic holly]

the unravelled is probably mizello, the guy in the psalm cylinder right after the fight, amalgamed with a few patients

[cloud mesa]

weaver info is mostly retconned in silksong right?

[lucid pasture]

its kinda crazy because we dont really see too much of the weavers negative side explicitly but when you start thinking about some of not explicitly game story they have to have been quite fucked up LOL

[gaunt anchor]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1145865952437747895/1152102523017101364/IMG_20230816_202611_062.gif

[sharp hawk]

From the lore Unravelled seems to actually be a cumulative of multiple bugs who tried the same procedure which failed . Don't have journal entry on hand but I'm pretty sure it's multiple and the conductor is just the main one/leader

[rustic holly]

we know he was doing surgery and fucked something up because the recording goes full analog horror

[sharp hawk]

I heard the mizello psalm cylinder on YouTube and it was actually terrifying like oh my god
Team Cherry really amped up their fucked up medical horror game from soul sanctum imo

[neat sandal]

Hornet admit they are horrible too
"Hornet: I am not my kin, Maker. I have seen enough pain born of their dominion. As much as I may, I choose to stand apart."

[vivid kernel]

i haven't listened to that one, on it

[teal drift]

the weavers created a system that conveniently kept their only potential threat comatose and placed themselves as supreme beings above everyone else. Complete assholes lmfao.

[lucid pasture]

yeah.

[teal drift]

Kinda reminds me of the religion in Terry Pratchett's small gods, where there was so much beauracracy and clergy bullshit that no one actually worshipped the original god anymore.

[lucid pasture]

Phantom seemed integral to the pilgrimage system to me with how he worked blocking the other entrances but like if the weavers put this pilgrimage system from the beginning I wonder how that worked? Like Silk would not have created phantom for them lol

[teal drift]

I am curious about where Lace and Phantom came in to the timeline.

[cloud mesa]

hollow knight has always been iffy on timelines

[lucid pasture]

same

[limber anvil]

do we know if garmand is truley dead?

[teal drift]

Because were they just fine with Silk being kept forcefully comatose, or were they only born after the haunting and silk's somewhat awakening?

[rustic holly]

lace was likely made just before GMS was overthrown, or crafted through the haunting

[limber anvil]

she is old.... pre haunting.

[rustic holly]

either way she was the result of GMS's dissatisfaction with the weavers

[teal drift]

I feel like they must be post haunting creaitons but that implies they're young

[lucid pasture]

why do you say so?

i mean either way i think the haunting has going on for a pretty long time

at that point

[limber anvil]

the snail shamen says they are old

[lucid pasture]

lol

[vivid kernel]

i think it's way more likely that lace and phantom were made directly by GMS when she was awake, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing thay could be done by someone else

[neat sandal]

Seriously. I could just go with GMS did nothing wrong
it's all the weavers want power did all the bad thing
GMS angry and start haunting, capture weaver to revenge
and Hornet just go up and slay her and take self defense as an excuse

[teal drift]

if they were around before GMS was overthrown, what did they do during the interim years?

[limber anvil]

Fair... But based on the way that GMS has words reguarding the creation of lace I would say right before GMS was overthrown

[teal drift]

"yeah you guys are imprisoning my mom but i dont really care im not gonna do anything about that"

[lucid pasture]

thats what we were saying ong

[vivid kernel]

i mean, what was lace doing during the haunting before we came along?

also lace and phantom kind of hate GMS lol

[limber anvil]

nothing really

[teal drift]

I think the caretaker explains it

lace and phantom in the timeline are just very unclear

[limber anvil]

just going around killing everything in her path

[teal drift]

If they were pre-haunting, did they take part in the citadel as religious figures?

[limber anvil]

GMS is just a bad parent to both lace and the weavers

[teal drift]

Did the people view lace as jesus or something?

[vivid kernel]

all of HK lore is just mommy and daddy issues

[lucid pasture]

but i dont think that would work with how much the game says so much shit is silks fault, like as I said Hornet explicitly tells Green Prince how verdania got fucked because of silk doesnt she

but well that could enter how silk was somewhat influencing things behind the scenes after being put to sleep

[limber anvil]

not quite but fairly close...
its about divine beings having parental issues...

[teal drift]

silk's level of autonomy and involvement in the citadel seems a bit mysterious

[limber anvil]

like the greek gods lmao

[neat sandal]

caretaker said she keep citadel silence
why keep citadel silence
yeah, to wake her mother up
how to keep citadel silence?
by kill those pilgrims try to climb and sing

[teal drift]

New model: Silk started having a noticeable influence once the Weavers left but before the Haunting started, and this is around when she created Lace, who acted as her daughter and mouthpiece in her waekend state.

nah that's no good

[lucid pasture]

i dont want to believe lace is that evil tbh

[teal drift]

I need a dialogue dump of the game so I can try to assemble a full timeline

Lace is pretty sus lol. She was willing to destroy all of Pharloom out of spite for her own existence.

[neat sandal]

you can make her less evil by think she just kill the choir unit- an upper class

[teal drift]

True

[lucid pasture]

tbh Silksong is pretty strong on the motherhood themes even outside Silk, first boss is literally Moss Mother, all the bosses in act 3 are exaclty about the queens being mother figures and shit, hornet journey is abt separating herself from her parental figures quite a bit as i said before too

and theres also many more shit about that probably that im not remembering rn

[lucid pasture]

i guess but i dont think she would have enough strenght to do it herself. theres kinda some level of subtext that it was she who saved hornet in the beginning to do it for her after all, she is like just extremely suicidal because she is living in a fucked up world and cant do anything to fix it lol

[maiden meteor]

She’s also likely destined to slowly wither away like Phantom

[lucid pasture]

anyways i think Bilewater is the only place which HAS to have been fucked since citadel beginning LOL

[vivid kernel]

she's an ancient being with the mind of a psychotic, nihilistic child

ancient as in very old lol

[maiden meteor]

It seems that of NPCs Caretaker is the only one who might’ve predated Lace

[lucid pasture]

why so???

[teal drift]

Phantom withered because GMS didnt care to upkeep them. Lace was being mantained by big momma.

[neat sandal]

damn. I hate this kind dark soul style world building
feel like this silksong miss so many thing

[teal drift]

After the events of the game Hornet can feed her some silk.

[lucid pasture]

thats actually crazy lol she would probably be older than hornet if so

[maiden meteor]

he mentions that Lace been in Citadel for generations iirc

[lucid pasture]

well id say that kinda tells that she hasnt been on it since its creation at least?

[timber pond]

This game is far more obvious than any shit darksouls throws at you lol. In dark souls, the only thing you have to go off of is like ,a sentence in an item description, where as in this game the art itself idk, tells the story?lol

[lucid pasture]

i thought this games was obvious until i discovered it was the weavers who made silk and that she was sleeping actually and then everything got confusing

lol

NOT WHO MADE SILK

[maiden meteor]

also just read Lace’s Needoline lines and it seems like she’s desperate for GMS to acknowledge her

[lucid pasture]

who made citadel

[lucid pasture]

i wouldnt say desperated but more so frustrated

[maiden meteor]

Maybe Lace was created before weavers caged GMS and that’s why she never talked to Lace again

and that’s what partly driven Lace mad

[lucid pasture]

mentally child for 3 billion years

[teal drift]

I think GMS started regaining power (but still was not in her prime) around the time the Weavers left the citadel. This allows her to be involved in Verdania, and also gives her time and reason to create Lace/Phantom.

[lucid pasture]

yeah

[teal drift]

Also it's implied the reason the Weavers fled is fear of GSM's retribution.

[lucid pasture]

thats what im leaning to too

[teal drift]

Or is that outright stated? Idk

[lucid pasture]

i have no fucking idea about anything on the conductors though LOL

[teal drift]

It also explains the dialogue Eva has where she talks about Weavers hushedly preparing stuff in Weavenest Atla to try and counter GMS' awakening

[lucid pasture]

i also missed this lore of weavers owning citadel and leaving it after a bit entirely through my playthrough soo

[maiden meteor]

I theorized before that Lace’s creation might’ve been what turned weavers against GMS

GMS having proper child would basically make weavers obsolete

[teal drift]

Do we think this is from their first usurpation, or from when GMS was starting to awaken more.

[green yoke]

I always thought she was made after they left as a replacement and a more "controllable" child

[lucid pasture]

i think hornet was given by herrah genuinely because she wanted a child but she was still kinda locked into by weavers legacy as a whole into being grown up to take on silk

[maiden meteor]

I mainly go off Sinner’s line “She called us daughters”

[teal drift]

also where is the source on the song of the citadel keeping GMS weakened?

[neat sandal]

I feel like Lace creation is after weavers flee

[maiden meteor]

Weavenests were basically research sites to counter GMS I think

[green yoke]

Pretty sure it's when hornet talks to the Songclave guy? She says something along the lines of "I understand some of this Citadel's function. A cage perhaps, at one time"

[neat sandal]

caretaker only mention Lace appear during long silence. not before

[lucid pasture]

its with mask maker, but he doesnt talk about a song exactly

only that citadel is maintaining her asleep

[green yoke]

Ah

[lucid pasture]

was in this case, not anymore lol

[green yoke]

I think the song part is partially upheld by that cutscene you get after Widow, where a bunch of weavers are playing on harps

[maiden meteor]

thing is Lace’s creation would likely be a very resource-consuming process, so imo it would be pretty weird if GMS could do that while still sealed

[lucid pasture]

i didnt interpret that as a song being made to make her sleep tbh, its like almost an homage to Silk more than anything

i also interpreted the weavernests being made before them even wanting to get silk

obv it ended up being used as places to fuck her up

[maiden meteor]

I mean we don’t really have any info on other possible uses of them

[lucid pasture]

i mean places to hangout idk weavering all over the place

they seemed to exist even before citadel to me

[neat sandal]

Hornet: You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.

mask maker talk

[maiden meteor]

Atla was obviously the main hub of weavers’ operations, and Cindril must’ve been one where weavers conceived escape plan

[lucid pasture]

i mean yes i dont doubt they were used for their plannings, i just think we dont really need to think of them as forming up because of the plannings specifically

but maybe it is idk

[maiden meteor]

They might’ve been some sites for weaver research previously too

[lucid pasture]

yea like before citadel even existed and they coexisted with silk

[maiden meteor]

also it’s funny weavers dedicated entire structure to meeting giant moth thing

[lucid pasture]

yeah that place and also like the weaver relics in mosshome seemed to predate even Citadel

[maiden meteor]

which also has Silkshot blueprint for whatever reason

[lucid pasture]

was it mosshome its name idk

[lucid pasture]

naah the silkshot was on the right of the map wasnt it? i think on bilewater or something

[maiden meteor]

abyssal weavenest could also be pretty old based on the damage

or void just does that

[maiden meteor]

you find ruined tool there

and Mount Fay has a complete blueprint

[lucid pasture]

huh

i think its insanely funny that the bit of lore that changes much of how you think about the game is from mask maker like WHY is he the only one who actually says "weavers made citadel and put silks to sleep" 😭 😭

oh yeah and besides that its hidden behind you having to hit him with a charged attack lmao

[sharp hawk]

I was about to say that I never saw this dialogue when I found him 😭 team Cherry tucking key lore away as per usual

[lucid pasture]

i think i ended up seeing that dialogue by myself but i kinda forgot it

[dapper willow]

Well that is an answer

[amber thicket]

well, mask makers are probably always a very important figuire in any hollow knight civilization

so it would make sense for them to know a lot

[lucid pasture]

well yea

its kinda cool to engage with the lore when theres no real consensus formed yet

[rustic holly]

true dat

[cloud mesa]

do masks like literally give bugs intelligence or is it like a metaphoric thing?

[craggy smelt]

yes

[cloud mesa]

mask stuff is a weird part of hollow knight lore

[lucid pasture]

i dont think its about intelligence but apparently it kinda changes personality?

[cloud mesa]

but again

literally?

“A mask! A face! Does it need one? Does it not? To define. To focus. To exist.” is he being figurative or not????????

[lucid pasture]

maybe so? above styx theres a secret room you access with that act 3 powerup where there are many masks implying styx change his personality depending what he want to do lol (or maybe i interpreted that room wrongly)

[rustic holly]

i think it's mostly responsible for identity which is kind of needed for intellect

[lucid pasture]

and apparently he wants to be hornets slave for now

[craggy smelt]

in the first game, the grimm troupe has a member whose personality changes with their mask, so its true in some cases

[crude marsh]

What is the lore significance of wisp thicket

[craggy smelt]

Mask Maker says a face is essential and not everything has one, hence the mask making
some masks may be natural - hornet describes her own face as a mask

[lucid pasture]

funny fire guys makes fire things

[cloud mesa]

oh is fire magic just its own thing

[rustic holly]

hold on i havent seen that room yet what does it look like

[cloud mesa]

unrelated to hk other magic systems?

wisp thicket is weird

[crude marsh]

wisp thicket feels very weird

like why are there fire butterflies summoned by fire

[rustic holly]

it has minor nightmare heart vibes but i cant prove it

[crude marsh]

why is there a wood totem called the father

[rustic holly]

https://tenor.com/view/james-doakes-doakes-curious-suspicious-questioning-gif-14390669560130901665

[cloud mesa]

it has definite dlc placeholder vibes

[crude marsh]

does it allow bugs to teleport

[crude marsh]

def

[lucid pasture]

i wont have it rn but yea i also cant find it on internet lol i tried to see people talking about it and found anyone. its a place with some masks though youknow what i will open my game to show it

i feel like wisp thicket is there to show a place that was unnafected by all citadel shit because they were all insane

already and that made no one approach them ong

[cloud mesa]

we’ll probably have to wait for the dlc to get any wisp thicker answers

[whole hawk]

Imagine the final Silksong DLC.

[craggy smelt]

...no.

[whole hawk]

Act 4 - Epilogue

[craggy smelt]

there is waiting for Silksong
there is waiting for Silksong DLC
without the waiting... what is there

[cloud mesa]

is it corpses of past slaves?

[lucid pasture]

idk if that is about masks tho

[covert hollow]

Funny story, i was fighting moss mother in atla and i accidentally sent second one beyond the arena and just smashed the ceiling until she died there

[rustic holly]

it seems like the heads of other members of styx and the huntress's species

[cloud mesa]

it’s so hard to surmise anything from that room

[rustic holly]

and we know the young eat their parents if necessary

[cloud mesa]

your guess is as good as mine

[craggy smelt]

for someone who's supposed to be weak, Styx sure seems to have taken down a lot of big bugs...

[rustic holly]

it could be a bunch of corpse heads imo

[lucid pasture]

if you play needolin he says "my strenght or theirs?" "who is me?" "who to be" "the one to fear" "the one who breeds" and i assumed it had to do with masks because of that lol

also "the one who serves"

[cloud mesa]

theirs is referring to weavers(?) right

[lucid pasture]

idk

this one looks exactly like his face too

[cloud mesa]

and huntress

[lucid pasture]

nah huntress is different

[edgy nebula]

pretty similar tbf

[lucid pasture]

wait this is from before

nah it isnt

[cloud mesa]

we need data miners to extract the asset to really tell

[lucid pasture]

wdym

[cloud mesa]

like to see it clearly

[lucid pasture]

the masks are pretty different imo

[cloud mesa]

if it’s the same model as styx

see it uncropped

[rustic holly]

huntress and styx do seem to be of one species

[craggy smelt]

...huh
https://revretch.tumblr.com/post/794906779520761856/wait-do-people-not-realize-that-shakra-is-a

Rev retches wretched -ly

Wait--do people not realize that Shakra is a parasitoid wasp? She's got the wasp waist and the long ovipositor of a braconid or ichneumon!...

Tumblr · Sep 17, 2025, 4:09 AM

[lucid pasture]

ah yeah i do think they might be the same species altho huntress might not really be a spider tbh

[midnight vault]

if styx is male then it could just be that they are different because of gender and otherwise the same species

[lucid pasture]

like styx is an arachinid i mean

also huntress has 4 members styx has 6

unless she is hiding smth idk

[cloud mesa]

maybe styx is a entirely different thing wearing a member of huntress species face as a mask?

[rustic holly]

wtf is bro's deal anyway

he doesnt seem to be a weaver but he makes silk n shit

[dapper willow]

it appears that weavers are not the only ones who can make silk

[lucid pasture]

so much of silksong is taken from hollow knight but turned fucked up i just realized the egg breaking bit might as well be a reference to the stag in hk but here it is to show that huntress fucking dies

lmao

[rustic holly]

his matriarchal perspective does give me a hunch that he's either like
really really tiny part weaver

or a non-weaver arachnid who seems himself as inferior

[dapper willow]

I'm not sure about that
Does she really die?

[lucid pasture]

i mean id say so theres not much else to think happened

[dapper willow]

maybe she just left to observe her children like she said

[lucid pasture]

wdym left to observe her children her childrens are the eggs in her room

[rustic holly]

i mean you do give her a bunch of food so the babies don't eat her

[lucid pasture]

(that probably killed her)

[midnight vault]

Bro sees a woman and immediately goes "I am your slave my queen"

[lucid pasture]

i assumed it simply didnt work and they killed her anyway

well ofc i never saw her corpse so she could as well be alive

[rustic holly]

id reason her corpse would be there yeah

[dapper willow]

The children feast on the food hornet doordashed her then they leave, and huntress goes after them to see them grow up

[rustic holly]

yeah

[lucid pasture]

i mean they ate her 😭

[dapper willow]

If you don't see the corpse they aint dead

[rustic holly]

surely not all her bits are edible

[rustic holly]

quirrel moment

[lucid pasture]

idk children are crazy

[dapper willow]

his nail is the corpse haha

[lucid pasture]

well act 3 does many bits of showing everyone dead i dont know why huntress would be any different. but you all can believe ofc LOL

[midnight vault]

I feel bad for all the vendors that just die in act 3

[valid compass]

so did the conductors become sick from all the singing they do?

[lucid pasture]

i feel like styx and huntress might really be the same species for how they sssssspeak but at the same time its strange they have different legs and shit. still that doesnt really explain those masks lol

[crude marsh]

you might be cooking

i might have to check that

[lucid pasture]

i dont remember those enemies

[midnight vault]

The flame is almost certainly different than the Grimm Troupe's

[lucid pasture]

i opened the game to show that styx thing and i got attacked by this game again bro why does controlling hornet feels so good this game movement is awesome..

[crude marsh]

Its a diff colour, more orange-red than just red, but tbf a lot of things in silksong are coloured slightly different that hollow knight.

Idk ima try look and see if that enemy is indeed the same

[dapper willow]

Not a lot of people die actually
Well at least fewer people died than I thought

[dapper willow]

I dont think they have anything to do with grimm at all
They are just your run of tge mill flame cultists

[lucid pasture]

theres pilgrims rest, the guy being overworked in citadel, idk more tbh i only remember these 2

[dapper willow]

Poor mort

Also it took me some time to learn that Bone bottom survived

[lucid pasture]

me too

[dapper willow]

The couriers helped me

[lucid pasture]

i discovered them just before going to finish the game it was funny

and a bit emotional

anyways ill sleep its 5 am here it was nice talking with you thanks for answering my questions a bit byee

[valid compass]

for real? for me its just those grindle ass theiving bugs

[craggy smelt]

yeah, ||the survivors move to where the Flea Caravan used to be||

[valid compass]

ohhh

ill go check

[dapper willow]

team cherry is not that evil

[valid compass]

psalm cylinder of whiteward

[nova sluice]

So far do we have any SS lore that strongly feels like a plot hole or even an out of nowhere deus ex?

[radiant oriole]

||is khann (sands boss) is related to colosseum of fools? the lead up itself felt very reminiscent with the endless waves and if my memory isnt failing me (it might be) his mask looks a lot like one from the colosseum in hk|| (act 3)

[neat sandal]

weavers betray gms
lace save hornet
gms discard phantom

[green yoke]

...why did Lace save Hornet at the start of the game? You see those same butterflies with her at the first boss arena so it's pretty heavily implied it was her

Or maybe it was just the spirit of the Weavers?

[whole hawk]

Lace saved Hornet because she misunderstood GMS's intentions

[green yoke]

Oh, she thought she was getting replaced

[nova sluice]

The general idea is that Lace was afraid of getting substituted, she assumed Silk was looking for another daughter or something on those lines. She was jelly

[green yoke]

I mean fair enough, she already replaced Phantom in a way.

Not an unreasonable suspicion to hold

[whole hawk]

Lace's story is all about irony and how only in the very end did she realize GMS truly loved her and it took a sacrifice to do it

[neat sandal]

yeah. that misunderstood so forced

[fathom bone]

:0

[dry sparrow]

it finally hit me that the wisps from the mist are in the shape of phantom

[neat sandal]

like GMS kidnapped atleast 3 weavers before

so why would she misunderstood now?

[nova sluice]

I blame Silk for choosing to make a teenager

She could have chosen ANY other age to be her eternal personality

[whole hawk]

Lace felt like a doll made to act like a child fof GMS.

[pseudo gazelle]

Why does the First Sinner attack us?

[austere coral]

I mean Hornet is kind of a special case, half wyrm and all. Maybe she thought the first weavers weren’t ”good enough”, hence continued search, and Hornet could be?

[whole hawk]

She was indefinitely kept alive by milked Weavers to continue her act. Imagine being made to prance around as someone's child for aeons yet getting nothing in return outside of a withering life.

So Hornet was the breaking point, which made Lace mistakenly think that she was just a stopgap for the real golden child to show up. One with wyrm blood to boot.

Not realizing Hornet was captured for her sake to begin with. So yeah real tragedy hours right there.

[neat sandal]

and then why Lace save Hornet second time?

[nova sluice]

The snare one?

[neat sandal]

let just agree she misundertood her mother first time.
no just few minutes ago
and then few minutes, she clearly see two fight and his mother going to kill hornet
she be like
nah

[neat sandal]

yes

[whole holly]

does Unn survive after events of hallownest?

[nova sluice]

Probably just a raging teenager going against her mom. It's less about saving us and more about ruining her mom's plan

[neat sandal]

so we just going put "teenager" reason here for every Lace action
that's just lame

[whole hawk]

And even then Lace clearly still loves GMS so there's probably a part of her that wanted to die with her mother.

[austere coral]

she straight up says it, it’s a rebellion

[austere coral]

that’s literally what Lace herself says

[nova sluice]

Well, that defines her whole personality

[neat sandal]

so few minutes ago she rebellion cause she misunderstood her mom
then few minutes she rebellion cause she feel she just like it
that just out of nowhere

[nova sluice]

We don't really know but Unn is such a special case that might as well not even notice what was going on

[maiden meteor]

I think that’s a combination of teenage mindset, her existence being torture, GMS not communicating to her and etc

[nova sluice]

And Hornet being "desired"

[whole holly]

well, i wish we know more, i assumed Moss Grotto was tied to mosskin somehow and it tied back to unn, but that's obviously not the case

[nova sluice]

HK's macro lore has so many opens and possibilities like this but I also like to have certain things unexplained

[maiden meteor]

I suppose Lace doesn’t really understand why GMS wants Hornet and just assumed she’s a favorite lmao

[whole holly]

well, yes, but Unn is interesting to me just like Abyss Creature

[maiden meteor]

or Lace just jealous we get more attention

[nova sluice]

I suppose by the end she knows but still the idea of her mom focusing her attention on Hornet makes Lace jelly, and seeing how easily can GMS ignore Phantom it just lead to more anger and rebellion

Which is funny since the huge act3 problem was mostly due to Silk's love for Lace

And Hornet knew this, culminating in that lovely ending with just "I need help saving Lace" and Silk giving her all the silk to do the jump

[neat sandal]

and when Lace see clearly GMS don't want Hornet, she going to kill her
her mind "oh, let's rebel"
for no reason, cause I'm teenager hoho

[lapis geode]

...what do you mean ||SISTER??||

[austere coral]

…no? She felt unloved by her mother, thinking she was getting replaced and being just a replacement for some real child, both times is her ruining her mother’s plan to rebel, as she says, and the 2nd time maybe to die with her mother because she loved her in the end

[nova sluice]

Oh ye, I also love what they created with Unn, lore wise, the whole idea is amazing.
Killing HB is a really hard task tho so I suppose Unn is fine

[austere coral]

I mean all her siblings are vessels, and one has unified the void

[lapis geode]

I didn't expect that at all.
Lady still love her daughter

[austere coral]

(hornet is the sister of the knight)

[flat kernel]

Hornet is the gendered child, sister of all vessels

[maiden meteor]

btw do we know if Lace really just sacrificed herself out of spite or she might’ve had some nicer motive

I kinda suspect that Hornet acknowledging Lace as living being might’ve moved something in her

[lapis geode]

So literally, GMS use all of her silks for us to Silk Soar...
Additionally, she also put silks to heals Hornet.

Then left me to left the Abyss alone.
I mean, why they don't put Lace somewhere? At least let me talk to her

[flat kernel]

It's clearly shown how infant Lace is throughout the whole game, Lace in her 2nd fight hides between the flowers laughing like if it was a game of hide and seek

[nova sluice]

Half Weaver, Half Wyrm, trained by Vespa, Sister of the Void, friends with MrMush, owned a favor by Silk, got an artificial sister made with soul silk, arsenal of weapons under the hood

Hornet's character sheet is insane at this point

[austere coral]

spite, and maybe deep down felt sorry for Hornet? I mean Hornet did reassure her she was ”real”, and wanted to save Pharloom, yet she would’ve died

[lapis geode]

I guess that's faintly prove how young she is

[neat sandal]

just minutes ago she monologue about being replaced
It could like you say by make a scene GMS being drag to void, and Lace jump to follow.
that much easier to understand.
but no.
Lace cut her arm, stab her chest.
so confuse.
what the motive?

[lapis geode]

To be fair, GMS still abandon Phantom. Albeit we never know the full story of them,
Phantom need to at least try to talk to them.

[maiden meteor]

Lace also kinda had nothing to lose since she would eventually wither away anyways

[runic musk]

Makes me wonder won't she also just eventually wither away after true end given its said she takes a large amount of silk to maintain and I dunno if Hornet can cover that as well

By herself anyway

[austere coral]

Save Hornet, ruin mother’s plan, also generally being very childish

[maiden meteor]

Maybe GMS did something to Lace as well upon charging Hornet with silk

[maiden meteor]

I mean she cut arm to free Hornet

and maybe stabbed to keep GMS down while void dragged them

[lapis geode]

Woahhhh..

[neat sandal]

why save Hornet?
what her mother's plan?
she got dragging to void.
no reason Lace save Hornet
Lace hate her

[maiden meteor]

oh that’s neat

[lapis geode]

I think GMS overflow Lace with so much Silk.
Perhaps to the point of all of her divinity as well. Maybe that is enough to sustain her

[runic musk]

It took me a good bit to realize the flower also prevents Void debuffs from taking away your Silk

An excuse to rush through the main objective for act 3

[maiden meteor]

Lace is basically dying at this point so nothing to lose, and Hornet was probably the only person to be nice to Lace and acknowledge her as alive

[neat sandal]

so heroic.
that not how people with dying wish act

[lapis geode]

Still, it's still sad I can't fix anything now

[neat sandal]

saving a stranger you just hate minutes ago

[nova sluice]

She doesn't hate Hornet tho

She is just jelly

[runic musk]

I didnt see hate either

[whole hawk]

And Lace isnt exacltly normal. She's an ages old being stuck tonplay as GMS doll.

[maiden meteor]

Yeah she was just jealous Hornet gets attention by GMS and tried her best to prevent Hornet from reaching Cradle

[whole hawk]

Hornet was probably one of the best stimulations she's ever had.

No innuendo.

[austere coral]

I really don’t think Lace hates Hornet, moreso the fact her mother would replace her. Hornet reassured her she was alive, and didn’t hate her despite what she does, she’s just jealous. And she would’ve withered away anyways, she probably deep down saw giving up her, in her own eyes, sad ”life” was worth it so save Hornet

[lapis geode]

LoL.
That explains it

[maiden meteor]

and final dialogue likely showed Lace Hornet is actually pretty cool

[neat sandal]

well whatever. there is thousand ways you can defense that scene.
but to me. that's just off and feel forced

[maiden meteor]

Lace also herself states it was her last act of defiance as well

[left oyster]

"Prove yourself more Weaver than Wyrm"

Why would i wanna do that isn't wyrm like a super duper god

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think she knew what would happen afterwards so for her it was a win-win situation

[maiden meteor]

Weavers are just haters

[lapis geode]

Anyway, now I'm wondering..
Weaver supposed to nearly impossible to conceive child, right?
But pale being can make that happen.

Why GMS didn't find any suitable mate for herself?
Hmmm...

[maiden meteor]

Also PK is racist and called weavers common beasts

so ig hate was mutual

[vivid kernel]

Pale King sounded pretty morally questionable from what I can tell

[maiden meteor]

It’s nearly impossible and extremely painful for weavers

[lapis geode]

Imagine calling some high society that able to seal god as commoners.
In PK eyes, they're no different than mindless bug

[maiden meteor]

but in Cradle we see evidence of multiple weaver halfbloods

[austere coral]

GMS+Pale King ship, they’d be perfect together, trust

lol

[whole hawk]

Pale King made the greatest known kingdom in HK. Weavers subverted the Citadel and turned into an industrial shithole because they were mad at mom.

[lapis geode]

....LOOK AT THE SIZE DIFFERENT BRO!!!
that's unachievable

[nova sluice]

Lace acted emotionally, was jealous, weird, took action before understanding her mother's wishes, attacked her mom, and after all the tantrum and chaos she was laughing like nothing happened

So ye, a normal teenager

[maiden meteor]

Also I assume Silk might’ve had different physiology making conceiving child impossible by normal means

[lapis geode]

GMS got betrayed by her own subordinate.
Meanwhile PK problem is literally, ANOTHER PALE BEING.

If Radiance just chill Hallownest will be eternal.
Pharloom? Nah...

[maiden meteor]

PK was part of whole species so it makes sense he can reproduce

and White Lady’s whole thing is procreation

[nova sluice]

Well, PK and Herrah happened so...never doubt the wyrm's worm I guess

[vivid kernel]

Innuendo

[lapis geode]

That's fair but GMS is literal giant.

[maiden meteor]

We also don’t really know how PK conceived his children

could as well be that he just smashed his and WL’s souls into void egg

[nova sluice]

I'm pretty sure what killed PK at the end was || child support debt ||

[lapis geode]

I think they smashed, then the lady produce the eggs.
Then throw it.

[vivid kernel]

I thought PK and Herrah smashed but the vessels were just built

[maiden meteor]

I feel like Vessel creation process was similar to Kingsmould

aka you pour some void into mould and put soul inside

[lapis geode]

Isn't the vessel born from giant egg?
Maybe White Lady able to put more soul into one giant egg.

So one bang for thousand.

[maiden meteor]

but yeah they probably just smashed for Hornet

[vivid kernel]

I’m not sure. :/

[maiden meteor]

PK is so based he can overcome infertility

[lapis geode]

That possible too.
Again, we basically admit that GMS is technically single.
That lady ain't got any bitches nor men.

Sad

[nova sluice]

I like how Unn does things
She dreams about it and poof, you are born

[maiden meteor]

Again, GMS might’ve just been built different

[lapis geode]

It's so simple~

[maiden meteor]

she’s basically the embodiment of Silk

while PK is more, well, normal

[lapis geode]

Yeah, can confirm that.

[maiden meteor]

btw it’s interesting Silks regrows her arm

Plays more into the idea she might not be exactly physical being

[nova sluice]

I would be kinda interesting if Lace was immune to Void, since she isn't alive

But her silk is infused with soul so it doesn't matter

[maiden meteor]

Lace is made of silk and silk is just another form of soul

and void LOVES soul

so Lace is basically a four-meal course for void

[runic musk]

Its pretty clear Void was using GMS's silk as a sort of conduit to wreck havoc

Guess what Lace happens to be entirely made of

[lapis geode]

...then explains why somehow our little knight is able to save Hornet.
Aren't their soul is consumed to the void?

[nova sluice]

The flower is protecting Hornet

[maiden meteor]

Knight controls void

[lapis geode]

So the VOid stretch her to the ENTIRE PHARLOOM.
What a sadist

[nova sluice]

And thn Knight comes in to help

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think void used silk per se, cause without Knight’s influence void is still mindless

[nova sluice]

We need a full artificial life, without soul, to dive into the abyss

[maiden meteor]

it’s just that GMS stretched her threads into Pharloom and void just mindlessly spread through them

and then it sensed lots of soul

and began feasting

[nova sluice]

Good job Snails and GMS, you are all amazing

[runic musk]

Isnt Void also just kinda pissed at how GMS refuses to die in it

[maiden meteor]

tbf it’s mostly Lace’s fault

[maiden meteor]

I feel like its mainly earthquakes

wait wrong reply

[maiden meteor]

I meant this

[left oyster]

Hell nah my goat Pale King aint fucking with that weird ass bitch (GMS)

[maiden meteor]

Snails’ plan was still pretty reckless but no one accounted for GMS’ motherly instincts and being too angry to die

[left oyster]

Herrah was more or less chill
Mother Silk is just criminally insane

[maiden meteor]

White Lady however-

WL and GMS yuri

[nova sluice]

The combination of having silk everywhere and the half-thought plan of sending Silk to the void almost doomed the world

[maiden meteor]

I think Snails assumed void would just consume silk like it did with Radiance

[left oyster]

I would like to live in Hallownest at its prime
Pale King is a goated ruler

Pharloom however, was fucked from the start

[maiden meteor]

but Lace fucked it up by making GMS hellbent on saving her

[nova sluice]

PK propaganda was kinda annoying tho

[runic musk]

Tbf we got Needolin letting us access memories pretty good excuse to use it to make us see Hallownest before shit hit the fan via memory

[left oyster]

Is it REALLY propaganda if he's just that guy

[maiden meteor]

Bug society had heavy cast system it seems

[nova sluice]

I would live with Unn if I could

[maiden meteor]

like it was still ok if you lived in City

but you could end up in like Dirtmouth

[left oyster]

All hail the White Wyrm, never lose faith in his palest watch, base instincts redeemed, long live the Hallownest administration!

[maiden meteor]

tho props to PK for having public transit reach even worst of places

though it’s kinda weird that whole Hallownest has like 3 settlements

which are City, Dirtmouth and Crossroads town

[left oyster]

Transportation at a reasonable one-time price AND it comes with a free bench?

I LOVE this guy

[maiden meteor]

also feel like stations weren’t normally locked

I heard theory that all of geo locks were a quarantine safeguards

[left oyster]

Honestly probably

Also Pale King never made anyone worship him he just had that much aura basically everyone wanted to, and he left the others alone

Pharloom, however didn't take kindly to its neighbors

Mother Silk is just a BITCH

[maiden meteor]

Pharloom wasnt even meant to be a proper kingdom I think

[left oyster]

Also it had slavery and torture

[near kestrel]

Is that clear? I thought he had something to do with stopping the moths from worshipping the radiance? Not super forcefully but he did kinda want them to

[maiden meteor]

basically only proper settlement they have is Bellhart and it probably was just a passing point for pilgrims

[left oyster]

They turned to the Pale King out of their own regard

[terse warren]

Not Silk's fault

[maiden meteor]

I do think King might’ve had a part in complete Radiance erasure

[left oyster]

Fun fact moths in real life prefer white light instead of yellow

[maiden meteor]

He probably knew Rad would get angry with him taking her followers and tried his best to handicap her as much as possible

[near kestrel]

Hmm yeah, moths simply being attracted to the brighter light actually does fit pretty well

[left oyster]

But like would she be AGAINST IT

Cause my GOAT Pale King never let the Soul Master do that torture shit while he was there

[fair zealot]

still kinda sad we never got to 1v1 the pale king in hk

[maiden meteor]

you kinda do

[terse warren]

We don't know because she's kinda asleep

[proven bramble]

Its very funny to me how compared to the PK, Mother Silk made Pharloom without any care for the other bugs that lived there already lmao

[maiden meteor]

frankly King doesn’t do much in this fight

[left oyster]

White palace needolin dlc

[maiden meteor]

I feel like initially Weavers and GMS had no part in Pharloom’s business at all

they probably just chilled in Cradle and weavenests

but then Weavers conceived Citadel

[rustic holly]

stg silk fucked up so bad the pale king looks like a good guy now

[dapper willow]

Hornet fighting her dad's memory would be hella funny

[terse warren]

PK was always a good guy

[whole holly]

does White Lady have ties with Soul other than Kingsoul charm, like as Pale Being?

[left oyster]

He was always a good guy
He really was out of moral options for protecting his people

[maiden meteor]

this implies PK cared enough for Hornet for them to have any conflict

he’s literally just a deadbeat dad

[terse warren]

I'm not even kidding just look at the lore in any way and he's goated

[left oyster]

YEAH

That's what IM SAYIN

[near kestrel]

Sort of, he could've tried killing the radiance but he just sort of didn't think he could? Is it clear why he didn't basically attempt to do what we did in HK?

[dapper willow]

I think its funny to think that hornet imagines fighting her dad
Straight out og Baki

[terse warren]

Hornet was literally already grown up by the time she got sent to WP

[left oyster]

He didnt have the dream nail

[whole holly]

well, he refused to coexist with radiance, before him everything was mostly fine, he cared about his kingdom at most

[nova sluice]

Do we know precisely what Silk was doing with the captured weavers? We have those floating robots that extract silk but idr a place solely for this

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think PK was even good at hand to hand combat

[left oyster]

He didn't REFUSE to coexist
He was fine to coexisting with everyone

The moths just preferred him out of their own regard

[near kestrel]

But he did get the radiance inside the hollow knight somehow, and the white palace into the dream world. He had some mechanism to interact with dream stuff

[fair zealot]

true but have you considered: it'd be hella badass

[terse warren]

He didn't know the void could even do that, no guarantee it'd work also. He probably didn't even know of the Dream Nail if he did the moths wouldn't have given it to him to fully kill the radiance

[maiden meteor]

He just put some old clothes inside HK’s head

[left oyster]

It's probably just focus

[whole holly]

but fact is coexistence was norm until he showed up

[dapper willow]

Time to referr back to my theory

I think he did not fight radiance directly because he thought he would lose
Same for the radiance

[left oyster]

Like a really strong focus that lets you put a building in a dream

[maiden meteor]

WL is real asshole for annexing half of Greenpath

[left oyster]

Still was after btw he made deals with all the other people and never took lands if they werent granted

[dapper willow]

It was the norm after it too
The radiance just got pissed off

[near kestrel]

I totally get the pale king himself would've lost to the radiance but would pure vessel have? Why didn't he train up some vessel knights instead of killing so many

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think it would be possible to defeat Rad without void control

[dapper willow]

Yeah

[left oyster]

I think the reason PV was trained was so it could fight the radiance in its dream?

Still failed

[whole holly]

Radiance got pissed because he ruined coexistence