sk-lore

[raven condor]

Herra had hornet, mother silk must have just altered the dna

[silk dirge]

those are the ones who make monkey sounds right

[glossy badger]

Parthenogenesis

[raven condor]

Y?

[spark valve]

weavers can't generally reproduce

[raven condor]

But herra bro

[elder nymph]

Not sure why weaver reproduction is on your minds

[raven condor]

Ima assume they can

[spark valve]

there are exceptions but they are exceptions

[elder nymph]

Any fleeing people would take their kids in tow

[spark valve]

they didn't

[elder nymph]

They had to of

[spark valve]

you can see them left behind

[elder nymph]

Cause you only talk to "those who stayed behind"

And none of them claim child

[silk dirge]

this shit is so weird because according to people here because this is dream nail dialog of little weavers this has to be canon now except it isnt

im getting the feeling not all dialog in hk is super accurate to what team cherrys lore bible actually says

[spark valve]

no you don't talk to any who stayed behind

[elder nymph]

All of it is canonical

According to TC. Pick what you like

[silk dirge]

this creates a very weird triangle then

[elder nymph]

There is no 1 answer

[silk dirge]

where little weavers mean herrah was always a weaver but now they also dont exist?

[raven condor]

Little weavers are canon lol

[elder nymph]

People really get heavy on this stuff huh

[silk dirge]

yeah

[raven condor]

Weavers are normal creatures elevated, not constructs

[elder nymph]

There is a weaver we fight. Who had their mask removed and their silk bound

[silk dirge]

i think this proves my point perfectly that trying to use dialog from a game that was rushed to prove lore isnt the strongest evidence

like sure its what we know

but im starting to think team cherry probably left a lot of oversights and stuff and they just never noticed or had time to go back

[raven condor]

Yeah it’s dope

[elder nymph]

Wait what game was rushed?

[silk dirge]

hk

[elder nymph]

???? Huh?

[silk dirge]

silksong represents what team cherry wanted now they actually had resources

[spark valve]

they don't mean that

[silk dirge]

hk team cherry almost ran out of money

[raven condor]

Silksong is actually smaller than I thought it would be, but more detailed. HK and Silksong have very similar runtimes

[elder nymph]

From my understanding they had a majority done before the kickstarter

[silk dirge]

they did not lol

[elder nymph]

Cool, show your source

Show where they said so

[silk dirge]

the kickstarter ended in like 2015

hk released in 2017

[raven condor]

Dev started in 2014

[silk dirge]

that does not scream to me "they had everything done"

[elder nymph]

I didnt say everything

[silk dirge]

ok lets take a look then this is the game from 2014 https://youtu.be/iS-v4NMQkBg?si=1VJvtYYHYd047ubE

does this look anywhere close to the finished game

[elder nymph]

You can't even site a source?

Rip

[silk dirge]

is this not a source enough

if team cherry finished most of hk before the kickstarter why would it take them 2 additional years

[elder nymph]

Its not an official TC statement. Its a trailer

[dreamy carbon]

Do we know why exactly Hornet can escape from her cage in the intro?

[elder nymph]

They have a track record of taking their time with stuff

[spark valve]

you're claiming they did the majority of development in 1/3 of the dev time prior to the kickstarter so with like no budget and with an engine change
maybe you should cite a source

[silk dirge]

^

i thought team cherry almost running out of money was well known

[elder nymph]

I said it was.my understanding. I never said it's how it was. I czn be mistaken. I haven't doubled down. Check yourself.

[spark valve]

no, instead I will ignore you as pretty much everyone else should

[raven condor]

Anyhow hungry knight came out in aug 2013 which was before HK dev thus post kickstarter had the most dev time

[silk dirge]

yeah

[modest coyote]

I’m an infirm slave about to be fed to the broodmother as penance but some red thing just killed it: how can I now become free of sin?

[glossy badger]

Should I play hungry knight

[silk dirge]

i mean just look at this trailer this does not look at all like a game that has most of its development finished

[silk dirge]

if you want its a pretty shitty game lol

team cherry had a massive glow up

thats why everyone praises hk

despite team cherry almost running out of money and needing to rush

[elder nymph]

They all start somrwhere

[silk dirge]

they still cooked

and why silksong was that much better

[dreamy carbon]

Hello Yes do we know who or what helped Hornet get out of her cage at the intro

[elder nymph]

FNAF origins include a game about farts

Silksong is, imo, and proper sequel.

[silk dirge]

if they rushed hk, how does a game they didnt rush and had almost infinite money for look?

now we know and its peak

[silk dirge]

lace very likely directed that fly thingy to break the seal

[elder nymph]

I put easily over 100 hours in. And I still know jack shit about HK lol

[dreamy carbon]

Thought so... but Why Would Lace Do That

[silk dirge]

lace hates her mother and her existence and doesnt want to let her get hornet

[glossy badger]

Yeah silksong feels so much better

[modest coyote]

WE yes WE are all gonna be fed to the brood mother as penance for sin of inefficient slavework

[eternal gazelle]

I don't know if I would say "very likely" but she's the best candidate given the lack of information surrounding the seal breaking bugs in general

[raven condor]

Could also be seer fly

[silk dirge]

bc the reason gms wants hornet is to sustain lace and lace hates her life

[dreamy carbon]

Assuming she's still working under granny, Hornet was just supposed to be sent to the citadel and killed off right?

[silk dirge]

probably get her silk extracted somehow

[dreamy carbon]

Woa where did we get this

[silk dirge]

after lace 2

[glossy badger]

Me with no job

[elder nymph]

The light butterflies or what have you are all Lace are they not? Specifically the ones that fly upward as you approach

[eternal gazelle]

presumably Silk was going to do to hornet what hornet does to her in the first ending

[eternal gazelle]

they're not all Lace, they're all over the goddamn place

they show up at weaver shrines, they show up in the cradle, and they're inside every cogwork construct

[modest coyote]

The citadel will assign you a high paying job (you are paid in the most valuable currency: self labor)

[silk dirge]

anyways the whole hk being rushed is why im hesitant to actually make any conclusions on discontinuities between hk and silksong lore

team cherry didnt have the time to fully think out hk lore and such and likely left many oversights

[glossy badger]

That doesn't sound very valuable

[elder nymph]

Yeah but not all are identical. The ones that fly upward are unique. You have light dragonflies that just hang around. Maybe I'm imagining it

[silk dirge]

but i dont want to do this discussion again

[vivid kernel]

I wonder what Team Cherry will do after Silksong DLC

[silk dirge]

so i will cease

[modest coyote]

There is nothing more worthy than working for the citadel

[silk dirge]

fearless fox

[vivid kernel]

I wonder if they will continue to expand the universe or move on to other things

[glossy badger]

No we are going to talk about snail shaman controlling the void as a retcon and you will like it

[elder nymph]

People said fox game

[silk dirge]

i actually dont know if fearless fox is actually what they want to do

[vivid kernel]

Fox game

[modest coyote]

How is it a retcon

[vivid kernel]

I need to Google that I guess

[eternal gazelle]

who said they control the void

[glossy badger]

Yes🤖

[eternal gazelle]

that's not what happened in snared silk

[vivid kernel]

I really hope that they hire some more people on their team no matter what they do

Especially a PR person…….

[elder nymph]

Shamans are terrified of the void. Assuming Shamans are the snails

[silk dirge]

im going to talk about how someone mentioned yesterday that hornet was not given her name by vespa and how today i found a reddit post from ari saying the direct opposite

[modest coyote]

“The Snails can do void spells” well you know who else can do void spell learnt in suspiciously snail shaped things- the knight

[elder nymph]

Or it seemed like it

[eternal gazelle]

they worship it

[glossy badger]

It was an argument here that was going on for a few days 😭

[spark valve]

which is also a retcon

[elder nymph]

GMS goes down and they hide

[whole hawk]

Please TC you already animated naked hornet, give us the fistfighting crest

[modest coyote]

Not a big one and we don’t know that they worship it

[glossy badger]

I didn't fully understand it

[silk dirge]

sorry i dont speak buzzword

[vivid kernel]

Team Cherry, if you are reading this, hire someone to hit print screen and write social media posts about what is being worked on

[eternal gazelle]

not if you've been an ancient civ snail shaman believer from the beginning 😎

[elder nymph]

If only. Claw might be the closest we get

[eternal gazelle]

granted the evidence for that was always shaky but it isn't now

[modest coyote]

They are not the ancient civ

[spark valve]

that's like the most explicitly false thing imaginable

[silk dirge]

i like how people suddenly are so eager to claim this one snail shaman dude knows everything his tribe ever did

[modest coyote]

Snail shamans aren’t the ancient civ they just find void cool

[glossy badger]

Interesting

[edgy stone]

Arcane eggs were also retconned or like true nature revealed right

[modest coyote]

Not every old civilisation that finds void interesting is THE ancient civilisation

[edgy stone]

Doesnt seem like theyre an ancient civ creation anymore

[modest coyote]

We know weavers also found void somewhat interesting for a time

[silk dirge]

i have my receipts

[modest coyote]

That doesn’t make the weavers the ancient civilisation- In fact we know they can’t be it

[silk dirge]

pay attention to the last sentence

[whole hawk]

Weavers just setup a study in the abyss like the Pale King did

[vivid kernel]

Hornet was named after Vespa??? I literally never knew that

[modest coyote]

Exactly that’s my point I think the snail shamans had that too but slightly more so

[elder nymph]

I'm curious how much of Pharloom was Pharloom before the citadel

[glossy badger]

That's cool and the red memory confirms it

[elder nymph]

We know Hallownest was a take over operation

[edgy stone]

It does seem like the weavers were less interested in the abyss though or just couldn't figure it out as deeply as the pale king

The pale king did learn how to calm it down with the lighthouse and how to properly mold it

[elder nymph]

Well weavers used silk in thr same capacity as soul

[silk dirge]

like go ahead and discuss the other retcons all you want but i am firmly planting my feet 3q is not one

[eternal gazelle]

they didn't really have a reason to pursue it like he did

[modest coyote]

Why do we assume the snails were the ancient civilisation

[elder nymph]

Maybe the two didnt mesh well... as we see

[glossy badger]

Cuz they're based

[silk dirge]

if you have a problem with 3q in hk call it by what it actually is

a minor plot hole in the lore of hk

[modest coyote]

We have no evidence as to such extreme antiquity of the snails

[edgy stone]

Yeah which is probably the major reason why, wonder if theit inital research into it mightve been a way to kill or beat silk

[eternal gazelle]

the snail shaman ancient civ theory exists because of floor textures I think

[modest coyote]

That’s very dumb

[elder nymph]

That's hilarious

[modest coyote]

We know about the moths due to statues and shit

[eternal gazelle]

or maybe it was wall textures

[modest coyote]

But we base the void civ on wall textures?

[silk dirge]

like maybe you can interpret this reddit post in different ways but i know team cherry speak and "i cant confirm" is team cherry speak for "its probably future content that we want to keep secret"

[elder nymph]

Void civ is just pale King kids

[modest coyote]

My guess? We don’t have any candidates for the ancient civ and we won’t get any until a dlc or maybe never

[wheat pond]

sooo... I just started Silksong, was really deep into the lore of Hollow Knight. Without too many spoilers, how much is the lore of Silksong related to that of Hollow Knight, despite it being set in a completely different place? Is it like DS2 to Dark Souls or are they more closely related?

[modest coyote]

Same earth different continent

[wheat pond]

Like can I expect Silksong to answer any questions lingering from Hollow Knight?

[vivid kernel]

I always thought “I can’t confirm” meant “we haven’t thought about that so let me circle back to that after I talk with the other guys about it”

[modest coyote]

Some of them but not all

[eternal gazelle]

mostly disparate with some overlap

[modest coyote]

Ok let me ask this- ||do we get any indication of a snail civ in oharloom void?||

[elder nymph]

Void is needed to contain the Radiance, right? Assuming you do sealed siblings or the basic any% ending

[modest coyote]

Probably

It’s a bit like rock paper scissors

[silk dirge]

i mean i am 100% certain 3 queens wouldve been part of the hornet dlc if it never became silksong

[elder nymph]

I made a joke a moment ago, but like, how many vessels did the Pale King and White Lady make?

[vivid kernel]

Hmm. PK said you needed a vessel with no will of its own

[wheat pond]

anything in Silksong about the pale king, higher beings in general, wyrms, the void, the ancient civilization, any of that stuff or it's like, those were just hallownest things, pale king is dead, those things don't matter anymore in the lore of silksong?

[elder nymph]

How many has Hornet killed

[vivid kernel]

A lotttttt

[silk dirge]

also thats what i cant confirm normally means but i know how team cherry talks

[modest coyote]

Same earth different continent

[vivid kernel]

What would that have consisted of?

[silk dirge]

who knows

[glossy badger]

Why do you want silksong spoiled

[elder nymph]

So wouldn't that be a void worshipping civ?

[silk dirge]

apparently it mightve always planned to be an adventure in a new kingdom

[elder nymph]

The vessels goal is to be as empty as the void

[silk dirge]

but a way smaller one

[elder nymph]

Not all of them are. Obv

[modest coyote]

Ok but seriously what evidence do we get the snail shamans had anything to do with the ancient civ?

[silk dirge]

i think team cherry knew about the hornet not fitting in hallways issue pretty early on

[elder nymph]

Idk I'm spitballing ignore me

[vivid kernel]

Someone just ping mossbag lol

[modest coyote]

They clearly didn’t make the bell transport

[silk dirge]

bell transport is not ancient civ lol

[vivid kernel]

In regards to the ancient civ question

[modest coyote]

I know but they themselves find the bell old

[elder nymph]

Bell transport was after the citadel was founded

[modest coyote]

Like they don’t have “oh this is how us shamans used to go to void”

They say “uhh we don’t know”

[silk dirge]

like i genuinely dont know how people dont get dark and mysterious vibes from snail shamans who might be hiding stuff

like do people want snail shamans to use fucking tone indicators

[modest coyote]

They can be dark and mysterious and also not the ancient civ

[vivid kernel]

Yes please

😂

[modest coyote]

I’m pharloom what evidence do we get of some ancient civ characteristics in the snails?

[glossy badger]

You could say they're hiding in their shells

[silk dirge]

the snail shaman in forgotten crossroads never struck me as a trustworthy figure

[elder nymph]

The Snail Shamans just seem like a civ thst found info on the ancient cov and said LETS BE THEM

[modest coyote]

I don’t think exactly like that but pretty similar

[eternal gazelle]

I mean they're not just regular guys because it definitely seems like they're made of void

[modest coyote]

Let me ask: do the snails look like they have anything to do with the void soul totems?

I don’t think so- their design looks nothing like the snails ever made

[silk dirge]

wait wtf jack vine is young

[elder nymph]

Hornet seems to be as well. In fact most bugs lack definition thst would say not void.

[modest coyote]

Do they resemble the void idols or arcane eggs or use those in any of their buildings? No

[eternal gazelle]

okay but hornet didn't evaporate in the presence of the everbloom

[elder nymph]

True

[modest coyote]

I would argue there is far less evidence of the snails being the ancient civilisation

Than most of the candidates

[silk dirge]

wait wtf ari gibson is double the age of jack vine now

[modest coyote]

The only evidence we get of them being ancient civ is that they find void cool

[elder nymph]

The Everbloom poofed before HK showed up. That would of been bad

[frozen shell]

what tf is the point of the arcane egg, it tells us nothing new

[silk dirge]

BASED BASED BASED

[modest coyote]

I mean cool but I don’t think it’s particularly meaningful in the way that a chair is also gender less

[silk dirge]

i love team cherry

[elder nymph]

Unless act 3 is a blur the Shamans can't be void. Don't you show the flower to them?

[modest coyote]

The knight has literally no personality that could have higher concepts of the self like gender

[raven condor]

The knight holds it as well

[frozen shell]

nah they get obliterated by the red memory spell

[silk dirge]

i dont think thats the point of what theyre saying

[glossy badger]

Someone pull up what hornet said to lace

[silk dirge]

the knight is atleast a being

it is not an inanimate object

[modest coyote]

I guess

[elder nymph]

It would describe the knight best

[modest coyote]

But it don’t have a personality or much of a mind

It’s fairly comparable to a chair made animate

[raven condor]

It’s mind is other. But it does have a will. Due to the sisters of the void ending

[silk dirge]

im just going through ari's amas now and wtf

[modest coyote]

They’re bugs

[silk dirge]

i know but its still kinda funny

[elder nymph]

They are bugs lmao

[covert tusk]

The Knight seeks to work off more base instincts imo, it fights, it wanders, it survives, and it saved Hornet because it recognized her as a non threatening familiar face. It’s not person sentient, but it’s cognizant enough to act on things somewhere in its head

[modest coyote]

Is there are a meaningful way in which a idk mouse could have gender?

I don’t think so

[glossy badger]

I love how there's a concept for clothes in pharloom

[modest coyote]

Not really

I mean ok there’s pilgrim shawls

[silk dirge]

mice definitely have gender what

[modest coyote]

No?

[elder nymph]

Idk I care about gender in my bug characters as much as I care about bugs in my gender characters

[raven condor]

The void to me seems like it has the sentience of Eldrazi from mtg, seems like a decent comparison

[modest coyote]

True

[frozen shell]

Mice have a sex not a gender

[modest coyote]

Can a mouse express their gender in any way? Is there any social characteristics in relation to that?

[elder nymph]

Phantom is my favorite new boss. They have a really fun fight

[modest coyote]

I think the answer is no

[frozen shell]

beat phantom first try, great boss

[silk dirge]

true but when it comes to non human beings those two concepts tend to be a lot more of the same thing

[glossy badger]

Yeah and a seamstress and most of the npcs wearing clothes

[frozen shell]

fair

[silk dirge]

where with humans it gets all complicated

[tawdry flare]

You ever seen Minnie Mouse? She wears a bow

[raven condor]

Very close, but I might prefer skarrsinger, it’s close though

[modest coyote]

I think that’s more cause they’re silk products but there’s still many bugs without clothes

especially non citadel related ones

[elder nymph]

Them and Lace 2 imo are up there

[silk dirge]

though theres probably gender identity and stuff in animals for sure just bc theyre not humans doesnt mean they dont have any human characteristics

[raven condor]

Honestly excellent work tc on making phantom, Skarrsinger and the first sinner, brilliant fights

[modest coyote]

Like crust king khan

[silk dirge]

i mean clownfish change gender

[modest coyote]

He don’t got clothes

[elder nymph]

Hornet is called the gendered one

[silk dirge]

its all over nature

[frozen shell]

Lace 2 and especially LL piss me off. Good design, but that parry mannnnn

[modest coyote]

They change sex they don’t have gender

[glossy badger]

Even the fleas were clothes

[frozen shell]

i hate how it like sucks you in

[silk dirge]

ok you get what i mean tho

[elder nymph]

Did you jump yesterday? No? Vacuum

[muted lantern]

Does hornet wear a mask? We know mask maker is in deepest and masks are near indistinguishable from face, we know all weavers wear masks, but pk probably doesn't wear one

[modest coyote]

Yeah cause hornet and the other bugs have a human like society

[glossy badger]

Tbf that's an old civilisation

[frozen shell]

unrelated but fleas 100% smell like cinnamon sugar

[modest coyote]

I wouldn’t be surprised if pharloom has a tax policy - it has religion and government

[raven condor]

This is real.

[elder nymph]

Idk it seemed important when said

[glossy badger]

And their breath smells of flew brew

[modest coyote]

The bugs in pharloom are not literally bugs

[elder nymph]

Like a prophecy type term

[frozen shell]

flea brew's gotta be like a mango flavor

[silk dirge]

ok wait this is interesting

[elder nymph]

Blood flavor

[frozen shell]

pollip variant is blackberry

[elder nymph]

They are fleas

[modest coyote]

The ants don’t wear clothes either right?

[glossy badger]

Or cranberry

[silk dirge]

so the steel characters are related to the non steel soul characters that usually they replace

[frozen shell]

too purple for cranberry imo

[modest coyote]

I think only citadel related characters wear clothes- because silk

[glossy badger]

True

[frozen shell]

and grape is an awful flavor

so blackberry it is

[timber pond]

Well in Silksong the chracters are both Steel soul only

[glossy badger]

Grape is nice

[modest coyote]

A society worshipping silk will probably make silk products- such as thread and clothes

[elder nymph]

The veils supposedly prove their faith

[modest coyote]

I think that doesn’t mean that they have any particular aversion to not wearing clothes other than religious

[strange galleon]

pilgrims wear rags of low quality cloth

[modest coyote]

Shawls

[silk dirge]

also i found the comment to shut down all retcon discussion

[elder nymph]

I don't think so. The silk was funneled back up to the citadel

[modest coyote]

They still worshipped silk

[elder nymph]

Oh, definitely

[silk dirge]

reading through team cherry amas is actually pretty helpful to understand their thoughts on lore and stuff

[modest coyote]

All the pilgrims are followers of some silk based religion i would not be surprised if they have to wear silk based clothing

Last judge doesn’t wear any clothing for example

[elder nymph]

A lot of enemy descriptions mention collecting silk so be stored on spools and sent to the cotadel

[muted lantern]

The funniest part of bugs not having a concept of clothes is that kratt has no reason to be excited to see hornet bathing

He just a freak freak

[glossy badger]

They're just gonna say nuh uh and continue

[silk dirge]

nuu uh

[glossy badger]

Nuu is so weird

[elder nymph]

Kratt doesnt want any cloaks in the way

[modest coyote]

I think it’s moreso about being an invasion of privacy

[glossy badger]

I finished the journal and she just said the weirdest dialogue

[glossy badger]

I missed that

[modest coyote]

You get to hit him around it’s so funny

[silk dirge]

sorry if this is kinda spammy but theres a lot of interesting stuff in here im glad im looking at

i mentioned this before but yeah hornet dlc was always planned to not just be in hallownest

[modest coyote]

Do we see any non citadel or citadel worshipping society in pharloom wearing cloths

I guess the pinstress but she seems to have some relation to the weavers so a bit citadel adjacent

[elder nymph]

Nuu gets what Nuu asked for

[modest coyote]

I mean think about it

Of the 3 pre citadel societies- the plant one doesn’t have clothes- the any one doesn’t have clothes and the coral one doesn’t have clothes

[elder nymph]

I need to visit.the blue lady

[modest coyote]

I think there’s good evidence that clothing is a silk-religion related phenomena

[raven condor]

Coral one has armor

[modest coyote]

Armor I don’t think you can say is indicative of a nudity taboo

[craggy smelt]

do bones count as clothes?

[modest coyote]

Armor is armor

I think that they wear armor but not regular clothing is actually evidence to my point

Does karmelita wear clothing or is that part of her body?

[craggy smelt]

what about karmelita's gown, is that some kind of weird shell?

damn 🐌

[modest coyote]

I think it’s part of her body

[craggy smelt]

... so she's naked is what you're saying

[modest coyote]

Cause it’s red and it doesn’t have any distinct end point

[modest coyote]

There can be no “nakedness”

[elder nymph]

When do you think dancer ant will be a fight?

[modest coyote]

When the distinction has not existed

[modest coyote]

Uhh

[raven condor]

It’s in the game

Top tier fight btw

[modest coyote]

Ok yeah I looked at the design again and while it obviously resembles clothing it very clearly isn’t

[elder nymph]

Heart fight?

[modest coyote]

It’s just a wierd shell thing that looks like clothing

[raven condor]

Yes.

[modest coyote]

But most bugs in both hollowknight and silksong have shells which look like clothing

[elder nymph]

I have no memory of it. Must of been a 3am one. The momento I go was Grey

[modest coyote]

So imo I think we have good evidence that pre weaver-sentience clothing wasn’t commonplace in pharloom

[silk dirge]

nooshla nooshla slap

[modest coyote]

I think the presence of clothing is entirely related to religion rather than a nudity taboo

What that means is while the pilgrims would feel bad without a shawl/rags; they are not feeling bad because they’re “nude” but because they are being sinful

[craggy smelt]

i mean that makes sense
if you have a hard shell you don't need protective clothing
so you don't suffer without it and people don't start thinking god hates you for being naked

[modest coyote]

It is the religious aspect I wouldn’t be surprised if all the rags are just low quality or faux silk

I don’t think the pilgrims in pharloom would feel good in any non silk fabric

Take the bugs of bonebottom

They are the poorest pilgrims and a lot of them don’t have rags at all

Flick doesn’t have any clothing

There is no nudity taboo in pharloom - including the citadel

[elder nymph]

Damn it do I need to load Silksong. I'd argue the Knights in the citadel have clothing. A tabard is clothing

[modest coyote]

It is a sign of religious devotion

They worship silk so they are commanded to “cover themselves in silk”

They’re not called “clothing” but more specifically shawls- contextually a religious term

It’s a pilgrimage after all I wouldn’t be surprised if a Catholic felt he must wear a cross when he visits the Vatican

[elder nymph]

What species is Shakra? Because Shakra and her master look very different

[modest coyote]

But that doesn’t mean he is “nude” without the cross it’s just a religious symbol

[elder nymph]

Dude has a cloak and a cymbol

[silk dirge]

silksong: the story

[modest coyote]

Again- a faithful pilgrim wears silk

It has nothing to do with nudity

The bugs in the citadel can buy silk probably in the way you can buy a cross necklace

We know how commercialised the religion of the citadel is after all

They do not wear clothing because they “don’t want to be naked” but because “they’re going on a religious pilgrimage and must show their devotion”

[grand star]

is hornet void?

[silk dirge]

yeah i dont think theyll be returning to kickstarter now theyre almost billionaires at this point(exxageration but its not completely false)

[modest coyote]

No.

[gray iris]

i bet they decided halfway thru they gonna change the map for act 3 and thats why they been working on it so long

[modest coyote]

Ok let me give another evidence

The poor pilgrims wear low quality silk- rags which are often brown- but the rich wear pure white

This is because the silk is finer and purer that they can afford

[elder nymph]

You can tell they worship their accessories, so to speak. Sherma takes his cloak and cymbal off for the hit spring

[modest coyote]

Exactly he’s not self conscious about being nude

There is no nudity taboo in pharloom or hollownest

[elder nymph]

Pretty cool concept

[silk dirge]

i wonder how many new games team cherry had planned before they got carried away with silksong

[elder nymph]

Only 2 bugs have had assholes anyway

[modest coyote]

Yeah it’s a nice case of visual storytelling

[silk dirge]

bc ari is saying a lot here they have lots of new games and worlds planned

i definitely dont think team cherry ever expected silksong to become how it is

[modest coyote]

I mean it’s also not just visual storytelling cause they explicitly tell us so

They explicitly tell us these are the shawls of devote pilgrims

In garb of the pilgrim mission I think

[formal bane]

If Silksong is a sequel, does this mean there's a verified canon ending to HK?

[modest coyote]

Well I’d say it’s moreso we know certain endings can’t be canon

[elder nymph]

When dlc drops will I have to play through again to a certain point

[formal bane]

Does Hornet ever reference the Knight even once through the entirety of Silksong, in dialogue or otherwise?

[modest coyote]

Yes indirectly

[elder nymph]

Sort of

[lime nova]

Neat

[elder nymph]

When she is talking about standing by and watching a kingdom fall

[lime nova]

Or talking about seeing beings undermine how alive they are

[elder nymph]

I wonder how many times a hollow knight made that journey for Hornet to say enough is enough and start hunting them

[lime nova]

Also, the silksong journal entries explain why The Hollow Knight is so big

Hornet regularly references how much a bug is fed when talking about how big one is

[elder nymph]

I must be missing that one

[lime nova]

It seems as though being fed lots of food is directly correlated to growth

[silk dirge]

i wonder tho how those other vessels died while we can just respawn

[native mural]

So what exactly is a crest? Does every bug have one?

[lime nova]

That if unfed, a bug will just not grow much, but if fed a ton, it can seemingly grow unboundedly large

[lime nova]

Yes, innately every bug has a crest, it's sort of their identity

[modest coyote]

No

Well I mean they have arms and legs

[lime nova]

Hornet binding the crest of another bug is sort of absorbing their life force and identity

[elder nymph]

Claws

[silk dirge]

a crest is sort of the "class" of a bug so was that bug a wanderer, a reaper, a shaman etc...

[elder nymph]

I think their arms and legs are claws. Appendages are just claws

[native mural]

Is that because she's part pale king

[silk dirge]

and hornet bc shes cool can absorb all those crests and change between them

[elder nymph]

Has anyone said leg or arm in game? Its always claw

[lime nova]

No, it's a weaver thing

[silk dirge]

leg eater

[elder nymph]

Thats pretty official if in the beastiary

[silk dirge]

its a shopkeeper in hk lmao

[elder nymph]

Man I need to play that again

I played it once in 2020

[craggy smelt]

'claw' seems to be a substitute term for 'hand'

rather than 'arm'

[elder nymph]

Team Cherry kind of Ruthless

[worthy kettle]

could someone clarify the distinction between the ||shades and the void, as in the ending, the knight saves hornet from the void||

[native mural]

Iirc, the void manifests itself in the form of the shades

[grand star]

||individual shades have a conciousness, the void is just one being||

[native mural]

I might be thinking of this wrong tho so let someone else answer

[wild zinc]

Why does lace get freed from the void after getting beat up but not garmond

[elder nymph]

Try to go through Silksong without spending rosaries for anything that isnt a shop transaction. You have to do the 5 bells still.

[wild zinc]

Nuh uh

You can enter the citadel through bilewater

[elder nymph]

I am trying to think of different dialogue possibilities. Sherma phased through a door

[craggy smelt]

||Shades are beings made of Void that has been influenced through contact with other beings - in the case of the Knight and their siblings, it was contact with the children of the Pale King and the White Lady.||

[grand star]

are there any forms of life that aren't mushrooms, insects and artificed beings?

[craggy smelt]

jellyfish

[strange galleon]

and arachnids 🤓

[craggy smelt]

and crustaceans
(the bugs of the sea)

[grand star]

and fish i guess

[elder nymph]

Wyrms

[grand star]

true

[craggy smelt]

I think those fish might also be bugs

[grand star]

i was thinking that all higher beings are some kind of different species

[elder nymph]

Whatever Feydown is. Cause it's a bug, but it is bird

[craggy smelt]

greyroot is some kind of plant-thing
also nyleth and maybe isma

[grand star]

oh yeah there are plant things with greyroot and the white lady

[craggy smelt]

also slugs and snails - gastropods

[rain spindle]

Im still of the opinion hornet doesnt see the knight as family

[elder nymph]

Ok, Mask dude. Makes masks. Hornet has a mask. I bring him a delivery. That really all?

[strange galleon]

I feel like those are big fungi

[craggy smelt]

I tend to think of a lot of stuff like spiders and snails as 'bugs' still, in this world
bug is like another term for 'mortal'

[grand star]

i also think there used to be cambrian lifeforms?

like trilobites

[strange galleon]

There are certainly spinal cords all over the marrow

[craggy smelt]

you can talk to him about more stuff
(and a heavy attack will knock his mask off and unlock more still)

[grand star]

pretty sure you get to see fossils

[craggy smelt]

like the dinosaur version of bugs!

[grand star]

that's true

[elder nymph]

See I don't be whacking bugs that are chill

[wild zinc]

Also do you guys think that the cog work dancers loved each other? I don’t mean like the people they were based on I mean the actual robots. There’s sentient robots like the second sentinel and the architects so it’s totally possible the cog work dancers themselves were in love

[elder nymph]

They indeed did love rach other

[whole hawk]

Still convinced that Lace was whimpering/holding back tears in the final cutscene.

[worthy kettle]

i hear the the cog dancers are the green prince's lover's soul in both of them

[elder nymph]

Crazy I know. But when you kill one robot during the boss fight, when the other goes for the team up attack, it falls.to the ground and looks lost/sad

[rain spindle]

Uh oh

That subject will be raised again

[gray obsidian]

Yall hornets lowk a fraud

[strange galleon]

?

[rain spindle]

People are not ready to accept

[gray obsidian]

arent they the ||soul of green princes lover||

[rain spindle]

Yeah its implied the prince and his lover are twins

[gray obsidian]

||grandma silk and pale king lineage||

[gray obsidian]

WHAT

[rain spindle]

It's an incestuous relationship

[elder nymph]

Green Prince had a near identical Green Princs he danced with. Both from Verdania. We know of one kingdom there.

[strange galleon]

@gray obsidian || she defeats/outlives both, how is that fraud? ||

[gray obsidian]

Average Medieval Monarchy

[rain spindle]

They were also born at the same time

[elder nymph]

Twins!

[rain spindle]

And the tablet in verdania says their circumstances at birth doomed their love

[gray obsidian]

||fails to fight reject dumpster child twice||

[glossy badger]

It says they're born apart aswell

[rain spindle]

Referring to how they are two different people sharing the same soul

Thats why entwined apart

[limpid summit]

R we deadass

[rain spindle]

Can I send you a dm

[limpid summit]

Yeah go ahead

[gray obsidian]

I wonder what their child would look like

[foggy fractal]

mpreg ? in my Silksong ?

[gray obsidian]

no guys its differwnt

[rain spindle]

We all know whitr lady impregnated the pale king

[gray obsidian]

Different cause it wouldve been canon

[glossy badger]

In the dlc hopefully

[gray obsidian]

??

[glossy badger]

Nvm I looked the context

[gray obsidian]

Yall i think i know where pharloom is

It is

above or right next to howling cliffs/greenpath

BECAUSE

||bilewater has squits||

[muted lantern]

Why did the one penitent bug in the slab (the sane one that comes when you play music) commit himself to the slab? Does anyone have that dialogue? I have forgotten his sin

[muted lantern]

Hornet was traveling via prison caravan for a very long time before she arrived in pharloom, I doubt pharloom is remotely near hallownest.

[gray obsidian]

b-but

squit are way to weak to go that distance bro

How are there two seperate populations

[foggy fractal]

this like saying one mosquito species must live in the same place as another

[gray obsidian]

Thats exactly what im saying

[muted lantern]

Similar species can evolve across the world also these creatures look very different,

[foggy fractal]

theres a lot of mosquitos out there, all on different continents

[foggy fractal]

yeah and you're wrong

[gray obsidian]

Not skong spec evo 💀

I doubt that they would name them the same if it was just convergent evolution

[quartz flicker]

why do you think the Weavers built so many structures on Mount Fay?

[muted lantern]

And also itd be pretty wild to call hallownest the last of all kingdoms if there was another 2 feet away

[scenic stirrup]

Noooo did galmond die 😭

[gray obsidian]

Ok fair enough

[true vector]

Yea

fly high my angel

[scenic stirrup]

I thought he was a zote type character but hes actually pretty nice

[gray obsidian]

Maybe during ancient times desolate wastes was survivable snd maybe even like greenpath

[scenic stirrup]

: (

[gray obsidian]

poor zaza

Wait he dies?

[muted lantern]

Late act 3 yes

[gray obsidian]

Im at

||grandma silk||

[gray obsidian]

theres a third one?

[muted lantern]

That's act 2 be warned there's lots of act 3 spoilers here

[muted lantern]

Yes

[gray obsidian]

https://tenor.com/view/взгляд-2000-ярдов-война-war-soldier-gif-3632617944134077161

[foggy fractal]

yeah all spoilers allowed here

[gray obsidian]

Nice

[gray obsidian]

Sherma merch wheb

when*

[gray obsidian]

I want to learn the triangle exclusively because of sherma

[quartz flicker]

We know that Hornet was confined in the Rune Cage for a long time. All indication is that Pharloon is far as hell from Hallownest.

[gray obsidian]

but funny harpoon mosqito

[vivid kernel]

does anyone have any idea if there's some deeper lore behind the first sinner's apostasy? she clearly figured out that grandma silk was just using the weavers for something (i actually don't know why GMS created the weavers oops), but was that it?

[gray obsidian]

Idk what that is but i had a meme idea where grandma silk makes cookies with laces and hornets faces on them and gives them to herrah

[craggy smelt]

her cutscene might suggest that she discovered the truth about the Weavers' origins
rather than actually being 'divine daughters', they are transformed beasts

[wild zinc]

Anyone else think it’s kinda weird how there’s big warrior ants but there’s also small ants like the ones in real life and they coexist with the person sized ones

[scenic stirrup]

Silk song doesnt really have a zote type character right

[craggy smelt]

irl ants have multiple different 'castes' in the same hive

[glossy badger]

Fortunately

[wild zinc]

Yeah but like who gives birth to the small ants

[scenic stirrup]

I feel really bad abt galmond dawg

[limber anvil]

Wonder why the bay/barnicle area/village was cut...

[gray obsidian]

me

[craggy smelt]

i unno. same thing that gives birth to the big ones?
some queen somewhere

[wild zinc]

Actually who gives birth to the any of the ants cause they definitely don’t work like real ants. Karmelita is the closest thing they have to a queen and she’s probably gone through menopause by now

[glossy badger]

Same but also his fault hornet warned him and he didn't listen

[gray obsidian]

Garmond?

[limber anvil]

They are corpses by the haunting now

[gray obsidian]

Bugs do menopause?

[wild zinc]

Maybe

[sacred heath]

give us a quest to be able to save him tc PLEASE

[vivid kernel]

makes sense, i still don't understand why GMS made weavers tho. from the cages in the cradle, we can see that she was using ppl with weaver ancestry as food/power source. in the cutscene after widow, there's a lot of weavers playing harps, the same type you can buy from jubilana later in the game, so maybe she was putting them to work creating silk. were weavers created as slaves to GMS?

[glossy badger]

Maybe it's being saved for a dlc

[wild zinc]

Nah I’m pretty sure grandma can control people that are alive too

[sacred heath]

probably just for time

[limber anvil]

Seems like it was cut in act 3 way after the coral forest.

[gray obsidian]

ok so i googled it and in some cases their eggrate goes up with age and sometimes it stays stagnant

[limber anvil]

My guess...

[glossy badger]

Interesting

[sacred heath]

oh dear where is this going

[limber anvil]

Its the only real cut area to my knowledge that made it far into develipment

The coral forest area was cut ages ago it seems

[craggy smelt]

gods seem to want to create followers - PK enhanced the minds of bugs, Silk uplifted her weavers, Radiance straight up created her moths from her dreams
I think Weavers at first they worshipped Silk, but eventually came to resent her rule
the harvesting started happening after the rebellion, but I don't know what started the rebellion in the first place exactly

[vivid kernel]

well, probably the first sinner!!!

[hazy flare]

there's also the theories that GMS isn't the one hunting Weavers and putting them in cages, but Lace is

[limber anvil]

Second on the bottom right is pharloom bay

[hazy flare]

or the citadel people wanting more silk

[craggy smelt]

sure, she's who started it, but I'm still not sure why exactly
maybe they discovered that Silk was going to create silkborn like Phantom and Lace and the Weavers saw they were just a means to an end

[wild zinc]

I still think karmelita is probably dry down there idk

[limber anvil]

Basically it got cut in act 3... And seems to have served as a resprite from the swamp

[gaunt anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/fant4stic-say-that-again-gif-16690486418948643620

[limpid summit]

So wait I completely forgot about this whole thing

Was Hornet being weak in the first part of act 1 just residual from the weakening seal

I thought something bigger would come of it

[limber anvil]

Yes

[vivid kernel]

it was def the citadel people. the only reason they would leave pharloom looking for weavers is if there are no longer any weavers in pharloom. there was probably a mass exodus of weavers fleeing pharloom at some point after the rebellion, with some of them going to hallownest and others going to the other kingdoms mentioned in the cages

[vivid kernel]

that makes sense, not only did they find out GMS lied to them, but they were also going to be replaced

[hazy flare]

the counterargument is that Hornet was hunted and captured despite there being basically nobody in the citadel that would make decisions anymore outside Lace, no?

like maybe it was autopilot but it seemed to have been a thing even after when the citadel would want more silk

[gray obsidian]

I think sherma is a higher being

[hazy flare]

I guess there's the aging conductor

[vivid kernel]

hmmm that's a good point

[lyric rose]

Ass Jim’s attacks all produce Maggots.

[cerulean abyss]

knowing how veracious the void is now its crazy that the pale king was able to tame the abyss at all and that the void seemed to relent after the knight beat the radiance.

[lyric rose]

Except for the Ass attack, which does not.

Therefore, Ass Jim’s ass is the cleanest part of his body

[hazy flare]

though also now that I think of it, those bugs that captured Hornet, were they silk-mad too?

[silk dirge]

i mean the pale king was messing with very small amounts of void for like wingsmoulds and kingsmoulds

[lyric rose]

And I mean the lighthouse bug clearly didn’t tame the void

YOU HAD ONE JOB

[silk dirge]

i think it convinced him to turn it off

[vivid kernel]

GMS seems to have some agency even in her slumber, but idk why she would want to bring hornet to her. i also think it doesnt make sense for lace to be capturing weavers and taking them to pharloom because that's the OPPOSITE of her motivations, she tries to kill hornet twice to prevent her from getting to GMS

[cerulean abyss]

yeah ig its easier to fuck with the void when piles and piles of your dead kids are clogging it

[hazy flare]

maybe the hunting team had been away from pharloom since thing went bad and never got the memo

[silk dirge]

gms would be bringing hornet to use her silk to sustain lace

or smth like that

[lyric rose]

It’s like taming a tiger. Easier to do when you give it food.

[gray obsidian]

Yall whats up with mask maker?

[hazy flare]

like also how would they have kept Hornet captured? Who would even be her jailors? The area with the weaver cages is totally abandoned

[gray obsidian]

is it like, the same guy?

[lyric rose]

Doubtful.

[gray obsidian]

Doesnt she literally throw away lace

[vivid kernel]

i think they quite literally drain weavers to death for their silk, no need to guard a dead body lmao

[neat sandal]

Hornet said they want her silk or shell
so maybe silk for power (like her binding other silk user)
and shell for reincarnated like cut ending

[lyric rose]

Unless Nosk was his only customer and kept showing up in different disguises XD

[gray obsidian]

Gigachad singlehandedly moving to hallownest by himself with no help

[silk dirge]

no gms wants lace to be perfect

[lyric rose]

Mask Maker moves to Pharloom.

[gray obsidian]

Lace lowk looks 2d

[cerulean abyss]

LAMO
but i think that people can have some like impact on the void
the shades of the failed vessels returned to the void when radiance was defeated
the void burst out when gramgram got eaten
and shades ARE called regrets by jiji and the hunter journal

[gray obsidian]

Like the thing on her head is paper thin

[gray obsidian]

im a regret

[lyric rose]

Then Nosk realizes he’s lost his supply of masks, gets out of his cracked shell from where he “died” and scuttles into Pharloom to bring Hell LOL

[cerulean abyss]

😿

[hazy flare]

would make sense, yeah, after all these are supposed to be immortal

I wonder whether we know where they're extracted

[cerulean abyss]

there are the cages in the cradel mabey she was being taken there

[hazy flare]

I guess that points to GMS anyway?

[cerulean abyss]

that would make sense if lace freeed us to fuck her over

[vivid kernel]

something i have been thinking abt is the connection between silk and song (they said the thing!!!). songs have the ability to control silk and things that are bound by it. the citadel has the capacity to create songs, but they can't create silk. that's why its mentioned that hornet's ability to create her own silk is valuable and sought after in pharloom

[cerulean abyss]

ohhh be cause strings will ressonate with music and shit ohhhh dope

[cerulean abyss]

but the haunting was already happening when hornet got there

[silver spire]

guys what's the general consensus on interpretation of pharloom's folly

[vivid kernel]

yess, because GMS was waking up and taking direct control of the citadel. this comes back to the huge question of "why were they taking hornet to pharloom"?

[spark valve]

gms wanted her silk

[vivid kernel]

for what?

[spark valve]

probably lace

[vivid kernel]

would phantom be a failed experiment?

[cerulean abyss]

mabey because hornet was half higher being
crackpot theory GMS made the weevers, lace, and phantom so they were obsesssed with making life and her name referes to her as a mother
what if she wanted hornet to be like her kid or some shit?

[spark valve]

maybe

[neat sandal]

for power.

[cerulean abyss]

colonialism is bad

[silver spire]

?????

[golden herald]

Hkw does tjis relate 😭

But I don't really get pharlooms folly in retrospect

[silver spire]

the whole poem seems to imply that pharloom actually wronged GMS

instead of the other way around, and the haunting is retribution

or smth, im not exactly sure

[silk dirge]

to me that poem is a conductor who saw through the lie and realized there is no reason to sustain gms bc she is a beast at her core

[spark valve]

it's about the citadel caste using silk to build their civilization up without fully knowing where it comes from or what the long term consequences might be

[golden herald]

I thought this but nothing in the game really.made me feel that way, my only guess is it was made by someone who really liked grand.mother silk

[limber anvil]

Path of bone = the marrow
Greymoor =greymoor
shellwood_thicket = shellwood
Red_coral_gorge = the pintress hut area
city_of_song =citadel/choral chambers
the_slab = the slab
Gloom = cut area or early abyss
Dustpens = sinners road
belltown = bellhart
hunters nest= hunters march
bonetown = bone bottom
moss_cave = moss grotto
Pharloom bay = cut area and barnicle area/village.
Docks = deep docks
Wilds = far fields
weaver_shrine = weavernest atla
bone_church = snail shamen church
mosstown = mosshome
library = whispering vaults
clover = verdania
understore = underworks
cog_core = cogwork core
peak = mount fay
Dust maze = the mist
ward = whiteward
hang = high halls [maybe or cut]
Arborium = memorium
cradle = cradle
Pilgrems rest = pilgrems rest
halfway home = halfway home
judge steps = blasted steps
memory = red memory
crawlspace = the cauldron [maybe or cut]
wisp = wisp thicket [has a cut map item]
swamp = bilewater
Abyss = the abyss
aqueduct = putrid ducts
surface = surface
front gate = front gate
Coral caverns = sands of karak

Cut areas
hang and crawlspace I am not certain on. [one is high halls the other may be cut?
Pharloom bay [cut town and the barnicle area.]
legacy coral gorge the coral forest biome. [name is reused but the files say coral_gorge (old) for them.
Gloom cut area maybe... [or early abyss we know the gloom beast originally shot purple spray in this biome]

[cerulean abyss]

like you have pretty citadel but ur evil and exploitive of GMS arcadia greymore/sinners row the bugs in the now blighted swamp, the coral guys, and the bugs that worship you so you can get more choir singers to keep exploiting GMS and everyone in the game

[foggy fractal]

GUH

[limber anvil]

breakdown of map ids

[silver spire]

i thought that i would meet conductor romino in game D:

since elegy to hallownest was written by monomon, who shows up in game at least once

[neat sandal]

no. they sustain her sleep not sustain her

[silk dirge]

someone had a pre silksong lore theory that romino and lace were part of a gang trying to free pharloom

idk how it wouldve went but thats a pretty cool idea

i think i like this lore better

but it wouldve been interesting for sure

[gray obsidian]

Sukunas vessel aah lace

[limber anvil]

finally know why this area of the map is blank...

[silver spire]

maybe, conductors are supposed to lead pharloom onwards to greatness so maybe romino saw that GMS's slumber is in part going to cause demise

[limber anvil]

Cut pharloom bay map

fits perfectly

[vivid kernel]

smth important to remember is that the poem was written by a conductor, the very highest caste of the citadel. to me, the poem was written by a conductor who realised that if GMS ever woke up, pharloom was FUCKED (and ofc, he was right). "they see your beauty / they see your peace / they forget your heart": the citadel loves the things they can do with silk, but forgot that its source is a monster

[silver spire]

damn where's the surface yo

[limber anvil]

not on the map above the cradle in act 3.

has a memento

[silver spire]

yep, a beasts nature bare to all

[teal drift]

that was Biler Water originally.

[limber anvil]

basically a mini path of pain

[limber anvil]

its called swamp

[golden herald]

Yeah this makes sense, we see a lot of clean water dripping down from those.springs but no area we go to has like a big concentration of it, I thought it was a huge.missed opportunity but this place mighrve been where we saw the majority of it pool. Like.the blue lake from HK

[limber anvil]

yup

wonder why it was cut...

it was the 4th advertised village... now we have a hole in the map...

[vivid kernel]

also something thag has been bugging me: HOW DID THE WEAVERS BUILD A NEST IN THE ABYSS AND BELOW LAVA

or did the abyss "water level" rise between the construction of the den and when we find it? is it just millions of years old?

[cerulean abyss]

it kinda would fit but there would be no infrastructure from the citadel to that area and team cherry are pretty good about tying areas together. mabey not wanting to change bilgewater was part of the reason it was cut

[limber anvil]

yeah

[golden herald]

Was that area in a trailer? Or am I confusing it for the flea village in the ducts.

[limber anvil]

option 2... inbetween verdania and farfields... we know that it used to be smaller... [missing the area that is now where you fight the queen]

[edgy nebula]

why does hornet become a weaver queen when she binds gms?

[cerulean abyss]

bc they area awesome and have like crazy tech

[silver spire]

the nest's name is weavenest absolom

which, absalom in the bible is a figure that rebelled against king david

[teal drift]

GMS was the originator of the Weavers, Hornet usurps her and becomes the new Queen of the Weavers.

[silver spire]

so maybe the weavers in this nest were the ones that tried to lull gms to sleep using void? idk im spitballing

[neat sandal]

they have dive bell

[cerulean abyss]

absorbs her power? shes already half pale being and half weaver if anyone could do it its her.

[vivid kernel]

likely because she has higher being blood in her. between her weaver and higher being lineage, she probably has the capacity to ascend

[teal drift]

they used the dive bell to get below the lava, they carve caves and keep building

[cerulean abyss]

mabey that was the first sinners base

[edgy nebula]

ouuu ic

[teal drift]

Under the right contexts, especially weird contexts, many things can ascend.

[rain spindle]

Does anyone the name of the song that plays in the crawfather fight

[edgy nebula]

especially gorb

[vivid kernel]

herrah was the queen of the deepnest weavers, she may have been the leader of the weavers that fled pharloom for hallownest

[teal drift]

Hornet is particularly well equipped to defeat a god and usurp its role, but a grey crybaby bud also did so when given the right opportunity.

[vivid kernel]

the parasite and its lore implications fill me with dread. what the fuck is that whole thing?

[silver spire]

yea im still confused on that whole thing, as well as pollips

[teal drift]

I think it shows that little fragments of other powers can sneak in around the edges of the world and fuck things up.

[cerulean abyss]

i think she wanted a kid with the pale king for the purpose of reclaiming their homeland
she probably didnt know about the haunting but the citadel fucked with them (as we can see from the 12th architect and widow and the first sinner)

[silver spire]

mossbags gonna have a field day with all this lore

[teal drift]

Lifeblood is implied to do similar things.

[rain spindle]

Does anyone the name of the song that plays in the crawfather fight

[teal drift]

There are countless divine forces in this world, in the grey bud ending it uses the clash between hornet and GMS to suddenly claim a lot of power for itself.

[cerulean abyss]

were gonna half to wait another 7 years for his video

[edgy nebula]

part of me wonders if the white lady used to be a gray root like.... greyroot and corrupted a higher being or something

[golden herald]

Grey bud might be a baby higher being or something

Or it's something like the pale king who shedded his greater fkrm

[teal drift]

I think in general, gods in HK have two components: a force of nature, and an intelligence tied to that force of nature.

[golden herald]

The roots themselves.mightve been the greater being before the baby

[cerulean abyss]

the bell mayor pavo said he saw alot of people with the weird fetus thing we get so both the witch and the white lady are known to have alot of kids

[teal drift]

Imo, the grey bud we find is probably more analogous to a lifeseed than to a baby god, but that's speculation.

I think the grey roots probably are like a dank and nasty version of lifeblood, an automatically spreading god-force that seizes control of others and works like a parasite.

I was actually surprised there was no lifeblood ending, but that doesn't really pose a challenge to the player lol.

[cerulean abyss]

especially bc of how infection like it has been portrayed

[teal drift]

In theory, if lifeblood has a fraction of sentience, an overdosed Hornet trying to absorb GMS would be the perfect target to overwhelm.

[main heath]

but also how would that work? the twisted ending happens because its like a venom symbiote, but the lifeblood stuff is more of a corruption

[teal drift]

What happens when you overdose

I havent actually done it because all my homies hate architects crest

[main heath]

you cant heal but you have infinite regen

[cerulean abyss]

i guess in hollowknight the few lifeblood areas were ONLY lifeblood areas so mabey its always been more malicious then first shown

[vivid kernel]

also something to note: the greyroot npc is clearly the same species as the twisted bud, but wouldn't that mean that he's a parasite too? if so, where is his host? i think the parasite transforms and matures based in their host, like the xenomorphs from alien lmao. their life cycle is: twisted bud > infect a host > mature and transform. i think the npc's intention was only to continue his species, but you end up birthing a god

[teal drift]

to me that indicates that lifeblood has entirely replaced hornets bodily fluids at least for a bit. That's sorta similar to a symbiote

[golden herald]

You literally just OD, it does limit your bind healing capabilities but moreso in the way of nerfing instead of restricting

[limpid summit]

What’s up with the flickering flame poem

[teal drift]

yeah I don't think the NPC intended for the gray bud to work like that

[limpid summit]

It might be something like this yeah if we assume she’s the same species WL may be a bit different

Greyroot seems unlike WL

[teal drift]

the gray bud is probably just a family of semi divine creatures with a special element, and they have a super weird birthing ritual.

[limpid summit]

You play the needolin and she sings but there’s no dialogue

[pale shuttle]

how do you overdose on lifeblood?

[vivid kernel]

also if this is the case, then the greyroot NPC used to be the same centipede species as the vaultkeeper and the relic collector

[limpid summit]

Using the Plasmium vial and lifeblood hearts around or the Architect crest

[main heath]

you have to get nine lifeblood

so either architect crest or use the lifeblood that spawns in wormways

[limpid summit]

I’m not sure abt all that

[pale shuttle]

huh

[limpid summit]

I think that’s just how Roots may be just like how Wyrms are how they are

[coral wren]

Whats the lore reason why green prince is so hot

[limpid summit]

Plus scrounge and the vaultkeepe seem like different species

But her being a xenomorph type thing I can get behind

[vivid kernel]

it's a stretch, but i say that because of its very long body shape (again, i am reaching lmao)

[teal drift]

I think the roots are just a god-adjacent thing with a really weird life cycle, and one is accidentally given the chance to evolve into godhood.

[coral wren]

I can't believe they made the bugs hot

[teal drift]

It does make sense that at some point the Greyroot NPC was a common bug who was infected and made into him

[cerulean abyss]

yuh because of hornet the bud takes over a far more powerful body but whats weird is why the bud is even in a different place than the npc witch lady

[teal drift]

How the bud ended up where it is is super bizarre

[coral wren]

Does anything happen if you take all 4 hearts to the shamans?

[lucid dirge]

you just keep the conjoined one

[coral wren]

Oh ok

[vivid kernel]

i found something important!!!!

[teal drift]

It's possible that the grey roots used to spread throughout the kingdom, and where we find the bud is just one of the only areas in the kingdom where grey root wasn't wiped out.

[coral wren]

I thought it was really cool how they had a secret 4th heart
That was easier to find than the intended one

[cerulean abyss]

you think the citadel was accidently keeping a parsisitic creature at by through the powers of industilization and polution? Fire

[vivid kernel]

this is Eva's dialogue under some specific circumstances

[coral wren]

Also is pharloom close to hallownest or is the abyss just really really big

[cerulean abyss]

claim my soul is wild

[vivid kernel]

so the twisted bud is a "leech" that can "claim souls", with a "ravenous nature"

[real plank]

I guess abyss is kinda like the underworld

[cerulean abyss]

I think hollownests was bigger but the pale king clogged it with his kids

[vivid kernel]

the parasites may feed on soul

[golden herald]

Twisted bud quest might just show us how higher beings are made

[teal drift]

Yeah I think the twisted bud is a similar god substance in the same vein that lifeblood is.

[cerulean abyss]

it reduces silk amount and silk is pretty analgous to soul mabey a different form of it

[teal drift]

There seems to be a large variety of higher beings in hollow knight lore. The twisted bud proves that usurping a person usurping a higher being can let you become one.

[vivid kernel]

afaik silk is essentially a different form of soul. the entire citadel is soul sanctum on steroids

[cerulean abyss]

I think the bud, the wicker man boss or whatever, and the druid all show ways that higher beings could be made which is cool i think

[cerulean abyss]

oh yeah

[teal drift]

what does the druid do again?

Yeah if the soul sanctum's experiments had worked, they'd have just created a whole new infection where soul is the conduit instead of dreams lol.

As it turns out god substances are just really good at infecting people, especially when the god controlling the substance in that area is a vengeful asshole.

[cerulean abyss]

when you give him enough moss berries he starts talkin crazy wait let me see if i can find it in game

[teal drift]

I remember that, but all i remember is getting the upgraded charm out of it. I don't remember him going higher being on me.

[vivid kernel]

wait is unn the only god that isn't an asshole lmao

[teal drift]

We don't have enough info on the coral/karmelita

but Unn is probably the chillest one

You could also argue that Unn is not really a god but just an insanely powerful dreamer.

[cerulean abyss]

he was like "dont you hear it" like he was creating something alive

[golden herald]

Unn made greenpath like green iirc

So unn spreads but it's throuch like plants which everyone likes so 🤷

[teal drift]

Is unn responsible for all plant life in his area? or just the mosskin

because if unn is responsible for all plants I'm curious if he's also responsible for the green stuff in silksong

[golden herald]

Greenpath Lore Tablet: "The greater mind once dreamed of leaf and cast these caverns so. In every bush and every vine the mind of Unn reveals itself to us."

[teal drift]

or maybe any bug sufficiently in tune with nature can become a plant god and create sentient plant life, meaning that Unn and Nyleth are both gods of the same approximate substance.

it's also hard to tell what's just propaganda or misinformation

[vivid kernel]

wait is nyleth described as a god somewhere?

[teal drift]

GMS says she created the weavers from her mind, but then they find out she really elevated pre-existing crawlies.

The shamans say "seek the old gods"

[pure vale]

Has anyone ever thought why didn't the veiled bugs that brought Hornet to Pharloom didn't just leave her needle behind and render her defenseless? Is the citadel stupid?

[teal drift]

Karmelita/Nyleth/Khann are old gods, weaker than pale beings and void but still gods

[golden herald]

The citadel is indeed stupid

What even got hornet free? Was the butterfly just there by chance?

[teal drift]

I believe Unn falls into the same category as Karm/Nyleth/Khann rather than being a true equal to PK or GMS tier gods

[cerulean abyss]

it seems like there are lots of very powerful beings that can be made and interact with higher beings
but we havent seen anything be raised to have the wide spread influence of the radiance pale king or gramgram
but we have seen common bugs overpower and strip higher beings of their power like unn
we cant really use our main charicters either as guides because both are power nepo babies who knows where they actually stand.

[pure vale]

Lace freed her

[teal drift]

Lace did it out of spite for GMS

[pure vale]

yep

[teal drift]

GMS ordered doordash to eat a demigod and Lace crashed the car

[pure vale]

best analogy ever

[teal drift]

yeah there seem to be many different paths to sentience and godhood in HK lore.

[vivid kernel]

this explains why the godseekers were interested in any being more powerful than average

[pure vale]

I think they ascended to a higher strength because they became the leading figures of great kingdoms/ecosystems

reverence

[teal drift]

All i can say is that masks and void worship used to be the big things that granted sentience, then we started getting more individualized gods and groups of people and the most powerful of these new gods could start granting sentience themselves.

[vivid kernel]

this just made me realize something, it feels like there are many less masks in ss compared to hk

[neat sandal]

do you know what kind of meat fleas cooking

[limber anvil]

does garmond die? or are they just incapacitated

[pure vale]

THEIR OWN BRETHEREN

[teal drift]

I think the order goes approximately like this:

1. Through worship of the dark or prototypic masks, bugs gain a modicum of sentience.
2. They use more and more advanced masks to heighten their individuality and focus a sense of identity/soul into them. This creates a lineage of maskmakers dedicated to maskmanship all over the world.
3. Some individuals start going into the dream realm or mess with soul or mess with void and just generally start doing supernatural shit
4. These individuals start to become gods of the forces of nature that they mess with.
5. These gods are so full of soul and power that they can imagine beings into existence from their dreams (examples: Uuma, Red Ants, Mosskin), or they just elevate bugs by being near them (Pale Beings)

[limber anvil]

fairly sure higher beings existed before all of that.

[cerulean abyss]

that could be why the void is so powerful
the first real substance or thought or whatever to be worshiped
other beings that know about it study it like because of its old power adding to it.
plus it consuming nature

[limber anvil]

wyrms are not bugs

[teal drift]

It could be, not sure.

We have a great paucity of information about Wyrms.

[edgy barn]

the ants?

[limber anvil]

hornet only calls herself bug in part...

[teal drift]

I feel like Karmelita created the ants in some manner but idk.

[limber anvil]

also the white lady is roots

[limber anvil]

she isnt a higher being

[edgy barn]

Karmelita is not a higher being

[limber anvil]

they are 1 step below higher beings in terms of power.

[teal drift]

Hornet calls pale beings "of a higher caste" — they're not bugs, but they are of the same idea.

[noble gyro]

She is just a leader

[midnight vault]

I assume they’re her kids like she calls them her children when she dies

[teal drift]

Old gods are 100% confirmed as individuals that achieve a level of godhood through worship or dreamer shennanigans.

[limber anvil]

also random fact...

[teal drift]

Imo if old gods are acknowledged to be bugs that aura farmed into being god-like beings, it's reasonable to assume that entities like the PK and GMS did the same thing at one point.

[limber anvil]

did you know that the green prince used to have an icon like the other 3 dream bosses on the quest map and its unused in the files... [you may have needed to get all 4 to enter the red memory originally]

[vivid kernel]

there's a lore tablet in weaveden absalom that says something to the tune of "void, take away our feelings, our pain, our despair" so maybe void was the first higher being because it quite literally represents nothingness. only after bugs start becoming sentient it becomes possible to have gods of dreams and souls, but the void was already there

[teal drift]

I wonder if that was just for pacing reasons

Yeah, I think HK also has dialogue about how the first bugs worshipped the void

[limber anvil]

there is also a 9th memento so it fits if they cut it.

[limber anvil]

probably... since green prince is locked behind a simple key... which can be a pain to find

[cerulean abyss]

i honestly disagree with this now because it is very greek bronze age gods came from man type beat and we have no real evidence to prove that accept that some entities were made who were vastly stronger than the people who made them
not to say that higher beings cant be created more that we haven't ever seen the birth of a higher echelon higher being that wasnt in some way already tied to that weightclass

[midnight vault]

I think they realized doing dreamers twice AND more than 3 would’ve been much, that or they wanted to fit nyleth and seth in so we don’t miss his fight

[teal drift]

yeah there's no real proof of any of this

[vivid kernel]

also the ancient civilization in the basin and etc etc

[teal drift]

it's possible higher beings just have always existed, but I alaways sort of interpreted a timeline where it started off as void worship and maskmaking, then we started getting the higher beings rolling up

[limber anvil]

yup.
My theory is all 4 were required seth was a secret boss and the ghost flea memento [which seth now replaces was ingame] and the hearts were not a memento.
This got changed to seth being a manditory boss and being merged with the ghost flea scores in fleatopia

[limber anvil]

my guess is they used to be on the surface but now its inhospitable

[teal drift]

and from what we see in HK, bugs with enough determination and aura can become god-like

[midnight vault]

Higher beings seem to have a way to make bugs or pull them into their thrall, whether that’s a super natural ability or something else is up for speculation but that tends to be what they all do

[teal drift]

In the case of some higher beings like Unn, they pull them into their thrall simply by explicitly creating them.

[cerulean abyss]

I dont think it is nothingness tho because we have seen sentient creatures impose their will on it and its connections to the shades which have been stated to be people regrets
mabey its like tar boy if you have ever seen that on yt

[limber anvil]

radiance and grandmother silk fall under this catagory...
we also know of 2 more probable higher beings that are not confirmed

[teal drift]

Void can definitely be channeled by soul magic, since that's what it's doing 90% of the time we see it.

[midnight vault]

I subscribe to the theory that the void is like the place where everything negative and terrible pools up and becomes volatile so every place a big civilization forms an abyss isn’t too far from it

[teal drift]

Soul is like PVC pipe and void is like... hot sludge

[limber anvil]

mr.mushroom and the creature ontop of mount fay

[cerulean abyss]

my theory is that the first sinners sin was totaly to break that connection, her cracked head i

[teal drift]

wtf is the creature on mount fay

first sinner's discovery was that GMS didn't directly create them, but instead lied about it.

[cerulean abyss]

biiiiiiig bug

[vivid kernel]

there many instances of void being manipulated and "given form", but i understand it as meaning that void has no will or form on its own

[midnight vault]

Bird

[vivid kernel]

magic pigeon

[teal drift]

Gods do seem to lie a lot about how they created their people directly.

Like a lot of hallownest was definitely given sentience by the pale king, but like.... a very large swathe of it clearly pre-dated him lmao.

[cerulean abyss]

fax that was crucial to the pale kings plan

[midnight vault]

Unn seems straight forward, the radiance made the moths, PK enlightened lesser bugs, and silk made the weavers somehow

[teal drift]

Tbf void does seem to be hougnry on its own.

[coral wren]

Lost lace theme is so good

[cerulean abyss]

mabey you are what you eat and people are scared and regretful when they die

[midnight vault]

Perhaps the void allowed the ancient civilization to form but otherwise most things have their explanation save the mantis tribe

[limber anvil]

someone else brought it up...
grandmother silk said the weavers were her children. they felt like they were being lied to...
grandmother silk made lace as her child but was still a bad mother...
I think she saw the weavers as her children but... was a bad mother.

[vivid kernel]

silk made the weavers by forcefully ascending lesser bugs, as shown in first sinner cutscene

also also, what's the deal with Eva? what is she?

[teal drift]

I think the weavers thought they were lace, but really they were more like highly evolved crawlids, and they were upset by this.

[serene belfry]

seems like the weavers' attempt at a divinity

[teal drift]

Ironic, considering Lace more than anything wants to be a regular bug.

[midnight vault]

She says she is like hornet so maybe some weird higher being hybrid

[limber anvil]

weavers are like snail shamens and moths

They are supieror tribes of bugs

[serene belfry]

also GMS apparently told them they had divine origins instead of mentioning that they came from beastly tiny spiders

[teal drift]

I think Eva was actually created by the Weavers, who could not breed due to them all being ladies.

[craggy smelt]

Eva seems like a construct, like the servitors, but with a greater intelligence (like the Architects)
she is created by the Weavers but not really their kin, alike to Hornet because Hornet is also Weaver and 'not-Weaver'

[teal drift]

In order for weavers to breed, they have to be with a lower being, which is painful and lessens their existence.

[cloud mesa]

whats the lore reason for why all these bugs die

[limber anvil]

I would say these 3 tribes are closer to the leaders and bosses of other races... like the ant queen and the hive queen. [aka superior to the normal bug]

[cerulean abyss]

i think she brought hornet from hollownest to try and be her mom, she would be like her perfect daughter.
she is also asleep and angry for most of the game so it makes sense why she isnt the most logical when it comes to her parenting methods

[teal drift]

I think GMS wanted to eat hornet based on Lace's dialogue.

[limber anvil]

kinda funny we never get a straight answer on why hornet was kidnaped.

[teal drift]

Lace is like "you could be a tasty morsel but i'll kill you instead"

[cerulean abyss]

only due to their relation to to some kind of power tho Snails studied soul weavers silk etc

[teal drift]

Lace says "my act of rebellion was not letting her consume you, I don't care if the world ends"

[limber anvil]

She also says to hornet "She only wants you"

[neat sandal]

this. that how people react when they heard about darwin evolution theory first time

[teal drift]

Which higher being elevated the snail shamans though.

[limber anvil]

ending A maybe... [cut ending]

[craggy smelt]

it does seem like Silk consumes the Weavers she harvests, and Lace is just angry that Silk seems so invested in tracking them down

[limber anvil]

maybe if silk ate hornet she looked like this

[teal drift]

I think Silk is invested in tracking down weavers because she is in a weakened state (for an unclear reason) and needs to find entities invested with her silk magic.

So she sends envoys out to bring in any weaver quarter/halfbreeds

[midnight vault]

thats just weaver queen no?

[vivid kernel]

she was being kept asleep by the citadel, that's why she was weak

[cerulean abyss]

mabey the void? mabey they are the last remnants of the ancient civilization?

[teal drift]

I think they probably are descendants of void worshippers

[neat sandal]

weaver queen is 8 arms one
this one clearly look like GMS in hornet body

[teal drift]

I kinda think the snail shamans are like... ubermenshes. They don't really believe in a god, they just believe in doing their own thing with divine power.

[midnight vault]

I mean the lower half isnt shown. Maybe weaver queen is her just becoming her mother tho lol

[teal drift]

which lines up with void worship being akin to nihilism

[vivid kernel]

alone. in their lane. voided. flourishing

[limber anvil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4QB1wB88t4 1:35

[cerulean abyss]

oh totaly they call it their "practice" if i remember correctly

[limber anvil]

implied to be a bad ending...

its ending 3 in the video

[craggy smelt]

i don't think the shamans are descendants from the AC - the shaman in the first game didn't recognize the spell from the AC shrine in the Abyss
they're just sorcerers who mess with all kinds of powers, mostly Soul but also Void it turns out

[teal drift]

My guess would be snail shamans like the void because its a god that can elevate them while not expecting anything from them.

I thought abyss shriek was a completely novel thing that didn't exist in the AC, but maybe im forgetting some details

[midnight vault]

I kind of hope we can get that crest for the weaver queen ending in a dlc it looks so cool

[vivid kernel]

was that ending datamined?

[runic musk]

all of those were

[limber anvil]

yup... and has an unused achivement graphic cant find a cut name sadly

[runic musk]

the endings videos were posted like a day after launch

[teal drift]

void has a tendency to coat things made of soul (Source: much of these games), so when the Knight let it rip in the abyss shriek room, void and soul spontaneously merged and created a spell unknown to the ancient civilization or to the snail shamans.

[limber anvil]

yeah

according to the achivmeent images its labaled ending A.

ending a was cut its kinda funny

[teal drift]

waht are the details on ending A?

[midnight vault]

That annoyed me so much like I was scrolling youtube and they post the most spoiler thumbnail ever with the knight

[vivid kernel]

maybe that was the old version of the regular weaver queen ending

[limber anvil]

all we have is the datamined video of it...

[limber anvil]

doubt thats labeled as b

[craggy smelt]

you get it from this weird spot, and there's a message left behind there you can read with the dream nail - it's definitely something AC made that reacts to the Knight's spells

[vivid kernel]

seems pretty similar

[vivid kernel]

oh shit, nvm

[limber anvil]

my guess is that is if grandmother silk won

there is a-f

[midnight vault]

I wish twisted ending had more context

[vivid kernel]

probably, i wonder how you would get that ending though

[limber anvil]

a is cut
b is queen
c is snare
d is cursed child
e is sister of the void
F is passing of the age

[teal drift]

maybe if you give up binding lol

like you know how you gotta press A multiple times. What if you just don't

[runic musk]

just doesnt progress i believe

[limber anvil]

no achivment

there is a cut achivment graphic

[teal drift]

the sealed sibling ending of silksong lmfao

[vivid kernel]

he's talking abt how you would get the cut ending lol

[vivid kernel]

i think that would be very funny

[limber anvil]

thank god thats not canon I was so upset at people calling that one canon

[craggy smelt]

I would say, prep the big soul binding, and then bind her instead of using the needolin should unlock that one

[silk dirge]

same

like it does not feel at all intended

[teal drift]

I think that would actually be a helpful ending to have. Knowing what happens if GMS gets what she wants would be quite useful!

[limber anvil]

sealed siblings was obviously not meant to be serious of an ending.

[silk dirge]

what if team cherry had decided to allow hornet to escape a different way from the rune cage that didnt involve a seal breaking bug

[limber anvil]

yup

[silk dirge]

now try to make sealed siblings canon

[cerulean abyss]

sealed siblings is the correct ending and hornet no clipped though the wall into pharloom because there are bugs in the game

[teal drift]

I can make it canon

[limber anvil]

cope and seath the lord of shades shows up

[silk dirge]

sealed siblings can only be made canon with a very specific interaction of things that team cherry very likely never thought of or intended

[teal drift]

the church bugs broke into the black egg and kidnapped hornet from there, she's weak because she was sealed for so long.

The knight in the void sister ending is actually THK not the knight, who is currently sucking the radiance

boom sealed sibling is canon

[vivid kernel]

hornet just dream gated out of the black egg

[silk dirge]

i dont think she can do that

maybe she called the beastlings

[vivid kernel]

not scientifically possible

[cerulean abyss]

gn yall

[silk dirge]

the beastlings are actually insane when you think about it

[vivid kernel]

gn gn