sk-lore

[teal finch]

team cherry who didnt think of any of this dot png

[lean temple]

And if someone disagrees with the retcons go argue in #sk-discussion not here

[sinful nimbus]

We are not in violation of any rules

[scenic vigil]

He doesn't have to be misleading for a malicious reason. he could do that purely because he doesn't want to say they toyed with void in front of a vessel.

[next sable]

it's a relic you pick up somewhere. to the right of the teleporter

[gritty prawn]

and the lost lace journal entry. all that aside their dynamic is much more interesting in any light other than a romantic one anyway lmfao

[sinful nimbus]

why not

[sacred heath]

well yeah if you find and start chugging some sick juice that makes you feel real nice of course you’re gonna see it as a blessing

[lean temple]

You guys keep repeating the same arguments about the retcons. I actually want some free space to talk about the new lore

[next sable]

"Hide her deep, the despised child, our shame shown in shell of iron. She is a wish cast vain, divinity mimicked in form too frail."

[whole holly]

it didn't take over Salubra, Elina, or Joni(if you think otherwise show definitive proof)

[gritty prawn]

evidently the snail shamans love misleading though

[sinful nimbus]

Two conversations can happen at once

[wary plover]

I don't think you're doing anything exactly wrong or worth exiling but just chill and start talking to us normally. Like I want to know what your actual theories are

[silk dirge]

yeah they literally tried to hide who they are in silksong

[spark valve]

making up bullshit about a character who was in no way indicated to be lying having been lying is not making it less of a retcon even if it wasn't utterly insane to suggest that he's randomly lying for no reason

[sinful nimbus]

If you don't like a conversation that's within the rules you can't just tell someone to move channels randomly

[lean temple]

I literally don't care. If you want then just consider it a retcon and move with your life

[foggy fractal]

maybe we should cancel Snail Shaman

[maiden meteor]

Snail shamans also seem to have been apart for a really long time

[foggy fractal]

#HELIED

[whole holly]

but it still lacks proof that overdose killed her, being covered by lifeblood vines is not really argument

[sinful nimbus]

❓

[silk dirge]

to me the snail shaman shit in reality doesnt matter as do most of the silksong retcons

[maiden meteor]

so ancestral shaman could simply not know what their family was up to

[silk dirge]

they barely affect much other than like

a few lines of dialog

[spark valve]

saying this to the most chill participant in the conversation after being toxic as hell

[sinful nimbus]

Someone said to switch channels and I responded that we were fine in this channel

[gritty prawn]

alsooo im still confused snail shaman just a title anybody can take up? or is it more like a closed practice type of deal?

[scenic vigil]

For example let's not forget that the shaman tricked us into helping him. Quite misleading while still being friendly and allowing us to take the spell. I can think of some characters that are good and helpful but still cunning and teasing.

[next sable]

true. all of his relatives have clearly been dead a long time or captured. he doesn't even know his family is dead

[foggy fractal]

do we have a community name for the Snail Shaman in hk
theres a bunch of Snail Shamans now we need to call him like Joe or smth

[woeful iron]

Jonis blessing description cuh. Also what does salubra gotta do with this and who is elina??

[whole holly]

why did you participate in discussion to begin with, it started with claim that it was retcon and you argued otherwise

[lean temple]

Like can we actually discuss the new Steel lore for once instead of repeating the same arguments

[teal finch]

okay im ngl the shamans randomly being into void was the most egregious thing for me in terms of lore consistency

[sonic dawn]

the weavers made her?

[next sable]

yes

[teal finch]

like theybwere perfectly fine as soul chads

[maiden meteor]

I guess their old names work

[spark valve]

it is absolutely the most direct contradiction but it's still not that big a deal

[lean temple]

I gave all the evidence I could. You kept demanding more and idc enough to keep engaging. I'm sorry.

[sonic dawn]

they made her in an attempt to fight the silk mother? or what

[maiden meteor]

so Caretaker, Maid and Hermit

[mint furnace]

They earlier commented along the lines of “team cherry should not expand upon hollow knight lore”

[silk dirge]

yeah literally

[next sable]

they made her because they wanted to see if they could, essentially.

[scenic vigil]

The thing is I don't get why the shaman void thing isn't counted as a reveal instead of a retcon... Like what if the Shaman never mentioned the void at all. Would it be a problem then?

[mint furnace]

Which is like saying they shouldn’t make their games, that’s insane

[teal finch]

fair cause above all else i operate on vibes and aura and the snare cutscene was cool

[gritty prawn]

yeah but counter point soul and void and all that bs seem to be so closely intertwined that even though i feel the same way i cant help but be like alright you win team cherry

[spark valve]

lying

[whole holly]

so nothing? okay

[mint furnace]

It, at most, was a “neat they do void now” to me

[sinful nimbus]

The cool one (Hollow Knight)

The grumpy one
The girl one
The grumpy one #2

[gritty prawn]

like not directly intertwined but the whole thing about just being primordial forces

[silk dirge]

this is why i said retcon is a buzzword earlier say it all you want i dont care if team cherry expanded the lore what they added is interesting and engaging to me

[foggy fractal]

gotcha

[spark valve]

it would not be as direct a retcon if the first game had not stated or implied that snails categorically don't use void

[foggy fractal]

anyways The Cool One was lowkey Cool and Chill

[wary plover]

So what if they did.

So what if it's a retcon

[maiden meteor]

Again, TC are the ones who created all of the lore at the first place and most likely know what’s consistent better than any of us

[spark valve]

so yup lying

[whole holly]

Elina the Chronicler, and Salubra also consumed the Lifeblood, Joni would not die from it if it was blessing, considering that Plasmium Alchemist did makes it retcon

[silk dirge]

like i totally get team cherry for doing it i have been stuck off a bad basis many times and i do not blame them at all for changing lore as they see fit

[mint furnace]

Also saying the game about Hornet didn’t expand hornets character is insane lmao

[sacred heath]

nuke

[spark valve]

so nothing idk why people get so upset when it's called that

[sinful nimbus]

It was about the specific elements you gave as examples

[wary plover]

This is a lore channel not a "I feel bad now channel"

[mint furnace]

THATS WHAT I DONT GET, ITS THEIR GAME

THEY CAN MAKE IT HOW THEY WANT

Team cherry expanding on their old game is fine for the lore, it’s good even

They have changed

[foggy fractal]

I kinda feel bad that there was no colo and white palace equivalents in SS 😔 wait what were we talking about

[scenic vigil]

That was once said by ONE shaman and that was it. Do any of the dead ones in HK have anything to point against that? Also the shamans in SS are like a whole world away from the Hallownest shamans. Maybe the SS ones discovered void and for them void usage is normal. that way both the HK shaman saying snails don't use void (the ones in HK) and the SS shamans saying snails use void (the ones in SS) are true at the same time. Unless the snails have a way to talk across countries.

[silk dirge]

for example i started making a celeste map for a collab a while ago and i didnt like how it started since it limited me should it now be a bad thing if i changed it bc the playtesters liked the old version?

i never finished the map in the end but thats my example

[spark valve]

google what a retcon is

[scenic vigil]

We have enough arenas in SS for 3 colos

[gritty prawn]

if we wanna talk void i really like how hornet is shown to have a certain fear towards void and i like how that gives her a character arc and more depth when fighting lost lace

[next sable]

high halls arena was definitely the worst one out of them all

[sinful nimbus]

This is a channel about discussing Silksong's lore and narrative

Critiquing and/or giving your thoughts on the changes Silksong makes to HK's lore is discussion about Silksong's lore and narrative

If you do not like a conversation you can choose to not partake in it but there's no reason to direct people away from the channel and falsely claim its against the rules to have this conversation

[sacred heath]

we have at LEAST 2 white palace equivalents

[woeful iron]

Did they consume it recklessly or in very small amounts? And joni didn't die from the lifeblood but her vital fluids got replaced by it. Zylotl didn't die from the lifeblood it just seemingly took over his body. Its a very similar circumstance

[foggy fractal]

no way dawg even we gathered all of those scripted fights we'd barely get like 1 colo challenge

[teal finch]

theyre really short tbf

[silk dirge]

i honestly would be completely fine if team cherry went back and updated hk to fix the retcons

[wary plover]

I remember in way back in highschool our English teacher showed us a maya Angelou reading of her poem and I was so fixated on how she wasn't reading it according to the published version. But my teacher said "it's her poem, how she choose to read it is always her choice".

[teal finch]

in ckmparison to wp

[maiden meteor]

for me descending dark was good enough implication that shamans could have fiddled with void to certain degree

[gritty prawn]

i know not directly lore.. but i just adore how well hornet is characterized. what even classifies as lore

[foggy fractal]

I don't think we do ? there wasn't any all platforming lategame area

[silk dirge]

if i can imagine the world of hk working with them its fine by me

[maiden meteor]

they didn’t even have to enter abyss to get void

[whole holly]

it was stated to be infection in one game and blessing in another

[scenic vigil]

Also maybe lifeblood acts differently in the Pharloom environment

[silk dirge]

see my celeste map example

[spark valve]

the shaman didn't use descending dark

[sacred heath]

I’d say Mount Fay and the Cogworks count even if they’re technically midgame stuff

[gritty prawn]

if yall were to change who does the snare quest stuff instead of the snail shamans what would you put in their place?

just curious

[urban lantern]

So have we decided on wether or not the “nothing more than a common beast” (referring to herra) in hollow knight was retconned or no?

[spark valve]

she didn't the knight absorbs her soul to mutate desolate dive same way the knight absorbs the sanctum shaman to mutate vengeful spirit

[maiden meteor]

beastly nature just seems to be running in weaver blood

[next sable]

i mean, herrah can be a common beast (i.e. not royalty/part of pale court) and a weaver at the same time. i don't think it was ever a retcon

[sinful nimbus]

To clarify I don't think retcons are inherently always made for the detriment to the story but A) it's always more ideal to not have to make a retcon in the first place and B) better for retcons to be made to the benefit of the stories instead of just pointlessly changing the lore of the first game

[maiden meteor]

probably because they were ascended from common beast

[foggy fractal]

I'd have to disagree
you can blast through those areas way faster and they are like barely any rooms compared to white palace
maybe I just got better at games lowkey

[next sable]

it's more about how literally you want to interpret that specific phrase

[wary plover]

I explicitly said you didn't break the rules, but you have ignored all of my points addressing lore. You only address the parts that have nothing to do with lore. You are clearly ragebaiting, you said "herrah is a weaver now" "void tendrils are hostile now" if anyone disagrees that void tendrils were nonhostile to anyone in hk please let me know because this person is just a troll or heavily misinformed and is refusing any sort of attempts towards education or correction.

[bright pond]

(sorry for reposting but I'd like to know ) do we have an explanation for Pharloom's void not being united under the Knight's will? I thought the Knight being the Lord of Shade would be global, and not just limited to Hallownest

[woeful iron]

Oh my god, "jonis blessing" doesnt mean lifeblood is a blessing its just the name of the charm. Lifeblood is explicitly considered a taboo and joni a heretic. It fucks with your body if you ingest too much.

[gritty prawn]

again its benefical to the stories though so i dont understand

[scenic vigil]

Well weavers evolved from common bugs. We see that in the game. if the Pale King can see the true nature of weavers as being ascended bugs then it could explain the "common beast" term being used.

[maiden meteor]

but why absorbing shaman’s soul would give you that ability if shamans have nothing to do with void

[next sable]

not really. the best we have is that TK can only be aware of so much at one time, so he really can only control what he's aware of

[spark valve]

because it gives enough power to facilitate the knight's void to fuse with the spell as the shaman describes when you return with shade soul and as is an established property of void in general where it likes to mutate magical effects (e.g. shade cloak)

[scenic vigil]

But yeah. Where are the void tendrils not hostile?

[sacred heath]

“lifeblood is said to be a blessing” yeah and I’m sure if you asked a drug addict they’d likely say that their drug is a blessing too

[bright pond]

That's fair

[ember musk]

why does phantom keep her mask off before the fight?

[woeful iron]

I just said it wasn't a blessing??

[gritty prawn]

aura

[teal finch]

#1 aura farmer

[sacred heath]

no I’m agreeing with you im backing up your point

[spark valve]

I'm not sure why she wouldn't especially since she seems to hold it on her face a lot

[woeful iron]

Oh

I may be stupid

[sacred heath]

sorry I didn’t make that clear

[gritty prawn]

does anybody have any thoughts about the mask maker stuff in ss

[wary plover]

I think it's the same reason people walk around naked at home.

[sacred heath]

shoulda responded to the other guy

[woeful iron]

Why are there TWO OF THEM

[scenic vigil]

Anyway. Personally I take these "retcons" as reveals about the world rather than something that will be bad or go against existing lore. Was fun discussiong with yall. Time to see what achievements I have left.

[vague field]

||I guess they ate her huh||

[woeful iron]

One mask maker was ENOUGH

[sacred heath]

answered one question raised about 2 billion more

[ember musk]

but masks are way more in hollow knight no? mask maker and all

[whole holly]

except it does mean that,lifeblood was considered taboo because it was from another deity and Pale King forbade it, but it didn't fuck with body for ingesting too much in first game, nothing implied or proved it, it was nothing but beneficial in first game

[gritty prawn]

i mean itd make sense that each civilization pocket has a mask maker

[next sable]

as per HK mask maker, masks are essential to a bug's character/personality/life. it makes sense there would be multiple spread across many kingdoms if masks were that essential

[edgy stone]

Phantom may have a like personality/sanity issue represented by the mask

[gritty prawn]

yeah basically

i like how the mask maker clocks hornet

[woeful iron]

We dont even know what the deal with lifeblood is, saying "its from another deity" is a cop out answer and you know that

[narrow scarab]

i beat lost lace first time omg that was like the lock in of my life steam was coming out of my head

[woeful iron]

Oh wait wrong reply

[narrow scarab]

ending was so amazing im gonna cry

[wary plover]

Phantom is a silk creation so the mask may not have a normal relationship with her

[woeful iron]

2 messages ago

[neat sandal]

Now I think. Is lace use black mask and Phantom use white mask?

[gritty prawn]

also i love just how much stuff there is about hornets lifespan and her coming to terms with the present. thats why i love the idea of her staying in pharloom

[maiden meteor]

I think we all also miss the fact that plasmium was messed with by Alchemist

[edgy stone]

It may also be that the mask represents her distance from sind and lace

[sacred heath]

we didn’t SEE it fuck with anyone’s bodies
at least if you cover your ears and ignore the obvious hints with joni

[keen sedge]

You read the journal entry on the conchflies

[foggy fractal]

Silksong ending sucks Nine Sols was peak 🔥 🔥

[vague field]

i feel like she'll always be on the move

[edgy stone]

Who both to my knowledge lacks masks

[gritty prawn]

among much other stuff yes! i find such tidbits soo interesting

[next sable]

i actually don't think lace has a mask. lost lace gives me the impression that she just has a very outward blooming head-thingy

[vague field]

if anything, now she can travel ||with lace, im assuming her lifespan is similar||

[maiden meteor]

I don’t really see reason for that

[whole holly]

problem is nothing in first game implies it is harmful at all, and since elina and salubra consumed it and it didn't make go crazy like alchemist clearly means it is not drug, at least in first game

[maiden meteor]

Hornet seemed fine with staying in Hallownest until she was kidnapped

[uncut holly]

When you realize theres Silk Spools in the Kings Workshop in Hollow Knight

[spark valve]

lifeblood retcon is not that offensive who cares

[sacred heath]

maybe they just didn’t consume enough

[keen sedge]

I didn’t care for lace

[maiden meteor]

and she doesn’t really have reason to leave Pharloom

[edgy stone]

I dont think she does, silk certainly doesn't

[gritty prawn]

possibly but im on the side of her not returning to hallownest at least

[edgy stone]

I think their lack of faces is probably important

[bright pond]

Another question I had is, considering Act 3's end, which Hollow Knight endings are impossible to exist ? Obviously Hollow Knight, Sealed Siblings is very doubtful to have happened considering both TK and Hornet are sealed in Black Egg, Dream no More is impossible as the Knight is destroyed, non flower Godhome ending is a good proposal for "canon relative to Silksong act 3 ending" considering the Lord of Shades is unleashed on Hallownest and we don't know at all what happens to hallownest between HK and Silksong, flower Godhome ending is doubtful to have happened considering the flower sends Godseeker and everything happening inside... we don't know where

[foggy fractal]

petah...

[vague field]

she will likely never return to hallownest, fully agree

[spark valve]

dnm is possible the knight is not destroyed it just goes to the abyss

[keen sedge]

She has no reason to be there and she didn’t want to be there. She only stayed because she knew she’d be kidnapped again

[next sable]

it's still ambiguous whether it's dnm or etv, in short

[edgy stone]

Lace is also a child born mad, and her lack of a mask may be due to that

[woeful iron]

I once again gesture towards jonis repose

[uncut holly]

I think her being mad is just how she is

[gritty prawn]

i think the daughter of hallownest i remain stuff is more her coming to terms with not being in hallownest while still carrying it with her

[uncut holly]

GMS says better a child spun mad than none at all

[bright pond]

isn't dnm impossible because the knight gets destroyed in the process

[gritty prawn]

and accepting that it has fallen

whilst she still had the fate of pharloom in her hand

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think it gets destroyed

[sinful nimbus]

1. I'm prefacing this by saying that Weaver isn't a synonym for spider since this seems to be a common misconception

Herrah far more closely resembles the regular spiders of Deepnest like stalking Devouts than the Weavers who had a very uniform look.

Hornet's silk powers could've been explained by being a combination of Herrah's regular spider silk and her fathers natural affinity for soul (Which the vessels also inherited)

2. Silksong takes place after Dream No More / Embrace the Void where the void tendrils are unified under The Knight's own will, who is not aggressive towards their own sister. In fact, Hornet is left completely unharmed after the void rushes out of the Black Egg, implying The Knight deliberately saved her. By having the Void Tendrils aggressive, it means that Void Heart's effects have been retconned to no longer be absolute, and now it apparently needs to physically attack the void to stop it from harming other peoples which is obviously absurd, an analogous situation would be if I had to physically punch my other hand after it instinctively tried grabbing something.

3. The Wingsmould entry in Silksong

4. See number 2

5. Its not a big deal but it is pointless retraction of TC's prior statements, the only reason TK showed up is for pure fanservice. It doesn't actually add anything to the narrative. Consider if the flower never broke and the tendrils never attacked Hornet and she never needed saving. Silksong's story would still end in a satisfying manner because it ultimately focuses on the character of Hornet and Lace - not on the action or the idea that Hornet might not make it.

[next sable]

well, his shade thingy is still around when we die in HK, so... we don't know

[keen sedge]

Siblings is possible and more than likely we’re gonna stand on a voidheart ending

[sacred heath]

my take on it is
all the endings exist but not all of them connect to silksong

[uncut holly]

We know that Phantom was the first child and that Phantom according to their Needolin dialogue was "Forgotten", and "Discarded".

[gritty prawn]

accepting the fate of hallownest and doing what she wishes she could have done for hallownest

[spark valve]

it's plenty plausible this has changed over the course of the game, even if she doesn't have a reason to stay initially

[wary plover]

I believe the flower is the canon ending because hornet knows that it counters the void but I don't know how else she would know that unless she saw the remnants of it absorbing the void

[bright pond]

yeah I'm specifically asking about what's leading to silksong

[foggy fractal]

its either dnm or etv

[sacred heath]

oh sorry

[pliant cedar]

can someone explain why im going in dreams of killing these 3 bosses im a bit lost

[woeful iron]

Hornet is explicitly referred to as a weaver multiple times cuh

[bright pond]

don't worry

[uncut holly]

Its likely that whatever GMS motivations are, they wanted a perfect child, and "failed" with Phantom but succeeded with Lace.

[spark valve]

siblings is possible but clearly not intended, dnm and etv are both acknowledged pretty directly

[whole holly]

1. that is point in first place and makes lifeblood inconsistent, if it was like drug, why didn't elina and salubra experience same effects, if it is parasitic why is joni blessed by it,, nothing implies she specifically overdosed by it

[brazen hamlet]

This is too sad

[foggy fractal]

you need to get their hearts to do an epic ritual to get the epic flower to repel the void

[uncut holly]

So they only cared about Lace, and would do anything for Lace. She seemingly just wants a child just for the sake of it

[edgy stone]

I wonder if silks lines child born mad and child born frail refer to both phantom and lace or mad refers to lace specifically and frail refers to phantom tom specifically

[keen sedge]

I can’t imagine her not saying goodbye but I also can’t exactly imagine her sticking around to build houses.

[spark valve]

a lot of the wishes have been roughly on that level though

[pliant cedar]

why dont i rip them out of their dead bodies lol (ive only been at knight)

[sacred heath]

either dnm or etv
personally I’m voting for etv because that means we might see Hollow again

[sinful nimbus]

Not in Hollow Knight though? My point is that Silksong retroactively changed Herrah to be a weaver so that Hornet could be half weaver

[woeful iron]

Because they didn't use too much?? Like how people irl can dabble in a drug and not get addicted/ not overdose?

[whole holly]

but isn't it drug? why didn't they get addicted if it only seems like blessing to joni

[keen sedge]

For reward. Though maybe there isn’t much left for her in hallownest specifically anyways.

[silk dirge]

why would hornet be raised by weavers tho

[foggy fractal]

you need their hearts to be at their primes methinks ?

[edgy stone]

Because I feel both are mad and frail even if one of them shows off a charastic better

[bright pond]

which etv though flowerless or flower

[next sable]

the hearts are more on the spiritual/magical side than an anatomically physical side

[silk dirge]

if she wasnt part one

[gritty prawn]

also i think hornet becomes some sort of mentor to lace and that has her staying in pharloom for at least a little. she laments on how little she was able to do for hallownest that i think she would do as much as possible for pharloom even after actually saving it

[foggy fractal]

idk I wasn't paying too much attention either lmao

[uncut holly]

GMS motivation appears to be centered around having a perfect child, or specifically having an maintaining Lace. We still dont know what made the fallout with the Weavers, but we know they put her to Sleep. And that atleast Phantom was around and the Weavers just told her to play the organ and vent their gas all day

[spark valve]

quite a few of them don't have any indicated reward prior to completion

[uncut holly]

Atleast the Weavers didnt kill her

[gritty prawn]

besides lace is a pretty direct parallel to both herself and the knight

[sacred heath]

good question
I’m guessing Flower, though I could see either

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers are a part of Deepnest society and are the only other group that possesses magic silk so I'm not sure who else would've trained her

[edgy stone]

I really think silk wanted a god child like herself

[woeful iron]

The weavers made the weaversong charm for hornet, at the very least implying a connection. Its not a retcon if it doesnt actually change anything

[edgy stone]

Something that she could never make

[spark valve]

you could argue she only donates to reconstruction because there's a possibility of rewards later down the line but that seems like it's kind of not the point

[whole holly]

joni just has lifeblood around her repose, she would have said if lifeblood was reason of her death, why would team cherry omit it in first game to turn it into infection in second game

[bright pond]

flower has the issue of explaining how vgf / tk got back to real world from wherever the flower sent them

[keen sedge]

Okay but there’s a difference between being helpful during a crisis that mirrors your own kingdom’s fall, and settling down in pharloom for a long time.

[uncut holly]

I mean we dont really know is Lace would turn into GMS eventually but it really doesnt seem so, because Laces existence is fragile

[silk dirge]

anyways herrah retcon is the one i care about the very least bc it makes shit a lot simpler than hornet somehow combining wyrm and basic spider powers

[woeful iron]

Almost every single ghost in the game does not realize they are dead

[spark valve]

I'm not saying she's gonna be there forever necessarily I just don't think it's out of character to stay and help for at least a time

[bright pond]

where even did the flower send tk in flower etv ending

[uncut holly]

GMS seems to just want a "perfect" child up to their preferences. Doesnt care that their child hates them, doesnt care about the first one that wasnt perfect enough

[keen sedge]

That’s fair ya

[wary plover]

They were sent to the void.

[bright pond]

is this stated anywhere or

[whole holly]

well, nothing she says imples lifebood to be harmful or controlling or similar to way it is presented in second game

[maiden meteor]

I think it prevented shade lord from fully forming and what remained has escaped into the void

[uncut holly]

She doesnt seem to care about anything that actually makes having a child worth it to someone, she just needs to have one for the sake of it.

[sinful nimbus]

She clearly had an affiliation with weavers but if anything it was more a mentor situation than a biological one.

It does change something. Herrah wasn't a weaver and now she is

Whether you are okay with this retcon is subjective, but it is in fact a retcon.

[keen sedge]

What exactly are GMS’s objectives with her constructs anyways. They seem to just be tools, rather than successors

[uncut holly]

Its just how she is, she just wants a child

[silk dirge]

glad we can agree its subjective

[keen sedge]

Idk if “perfect child” in the sense of a prideful mother matches up here

[spark valve]

with lace? she wants a child not necessarily for any specific purpose

[vague field]

is there anywhere in the game i can find or see the ||huntress' children||?

[keen sedge]

though she does seem to care about lace? idk

[sacred heath]

maybe it’s that
knight got assimilated into the WHOLE void, and the void vanish in flower ending didnt kill them because they were already assimilated with the whole of the void so they lived on like. elsewhere
bit of a copout imo but i could see it

[woeful iron]

But she was never explicitly not a weaver, thats not a 100% sure conclusion its a hypothesis that was contradicted with further evidence

[silk dirge]

im just going to keep referring back to my celeste map example for my feelings bc it explains them really well

[uncut holly]

I dont think GMS has any point to making Lace and Phantom, she just did it because she wants a Child. She seems to love Lace while Lace definitely doesnt return the favor. And she seems to not give two damns about Phantom

[woeful iron]

GESTURES TOWARDS JONIS REPOSE

[spark valve]

I don't think gms wants them as successors though she seems to be pretty domineering with her 'daughters' the weavers

[gritty prawn]

one of the most confusing parts of the story for me was lace and hornets dynamic honestly

[edgy stone]

I do think it's something more than motherylove

[ancient dock]

Liked how we now have official confirmation that Hornet trained with the Hive

[keen sedge]

“She wanted a child because she wanted a child” doesn’t answer anything, especially when one is put into waste management hell, and one cuts off her arm but is still somehow dear to her.

[vague field]

GMS' motivations still make very little sense to me. she seems to be much more like radiance than the pale king, where instead of some grand objective she simply sought to be worshipped and powerful, after granting gifts to a species

[sinful nimbus]

Something doesn't need to be explicitly stated to be obviously true. Herrah was obviously not a weaver in HK, that was a basic observation not a hypothesis, and this detail was retroactively changed.

Heck they even redesigned Herrah in Silksong to make her look more like a weaver, its clearly a retroactive change

[edgy stone]

It seemed important to silk her child be a god

[whole holly]

that is huge reach and is strongly based on assumption that she dies from lifeblood and not naturally

[keen sedge]

Is that what happened?

[silk dirge]

if i started making new mechanics slightly disconnected from the rest of the map but still fun most people would still enjoy it and if i went back and made the entire map that people would be fine with it

[keen sedge]

I think herrah as a character definitely changed

[gritty prawn]

like past just being rivals

[spark valve]

I mean there's a narrative parallel to the weavers and their general difficulty with conception, as well as herrah

[keen sedge]

but species?

[uncut holly]

I dont really know what GMSs plan is with her children

[edgy stone]

She tried to put the idea that the weavers were gods into their minds and it didnt seem to work

[silk dirge]

same here team cherry isnt going to go back to modify hk now but if they did id have no problem with it

[novel night]

i wish we got a bit of an epilogue to see what they were up to after the fight so bad tbh 😔 that interaction at the end was low key kinda awkward like what emotion even was that on hornets face when lace giggled 😭

[vague field]

herrah was "obviously not a weaver in hk"
why? thats just your assumption im ngl

[sacred heath]

could be what Herrah looked like when she was younger— wait no that’s stupid

[woeful iron]

It was not "obviously true" because we had like no fucking clue about the weavers in hk, we saw like 2 corpses and nothing said they can't be more diverse than that physiologically

[gritty prawn]

theres a lot in silksong about motherhood that honestly wanting a child out of the desire of simply... wanting one and loving it isnt a far stretch

[edgy stone]

Lace notes that what grand mother silk wants is hornet and not her after lace 2

[gritty prawn]

also evidently the weavers were silks daughters but for some reason turned their backs on her which probably caused her to yearn for a replacement

[sinful nimbus]

It was more than 2 corpses we also had an entire enemy type that were weavers be fr

[keen sedge]

I can accept that. Except one is again, in fucking waste management hell lmao

[silk dirge]

to me i can understand the retcons and they dont completely ruin the game for me

[maiden meteor]

I firmly believe that most if not all of so-called retcons is simply a misconception on players’ part

[uncut holly]

I mean in Hollow Knight there where alot of spools in the background in various places

Like Ancient Basin Tram had them, White Palace had them in a few rooms

[sinful nimbus]

She more closely resembles a different type of spider therefore she was one, its a basic observation made via vision.

[spark valve]

phantom being discarded is weird but could be she couldn't sustain both or some shit

[uncut holly]

Alot of them where in workshop background

[vague field]

literally look at widow, 100% weaver with a different head and body shape. if all you're going off of is round head = weaver, silksong reinforces that that is not the truth, and there is nothing in hollow knight implying herrah wasnt one to begin with

[neat sandal]

I was think she has no mask too.
but if you look, every bugs have leg and arm black. Even GMS
but only Lace is full white
cause she made entire out of silk

[silk dirge]

i believe there are some disconnections with hk im going to stop arguing about that but like to me the story in silksong feels great and i dont see at all why team cherry should be limited by stuff they wrote probably like a decade ago

[uncut holly]

I actually got all the Phantom Needolin Dialogue I can give

[spark valve]

widow is mutilated

[whole holly]

why is weaver more similar to stalking devout and midwife than other weavers?

[sinful nimbus]

Widow's body shape is more or less the same she just had part of her head torn off

[foggy fractal]

the mischeavious little weaver:
also how do little weavers work with what we know about Silksong now lmao

[edgy stone]

Their frail life seems to be the most important aspect of phantoms storg

[spark valve]

they don't exist

[foggy fractal]

FUCK

[edgy stone]

I cant tell if its lace or phantom talking in the flashback at the exhaust organ

[keen sedge]

Whatever the take on it is, I still don’t buy “wanted a child to love out of a mother’s instinct” when there’s a more or less perfectly good kid going apparently unloved. It’s either simple and we don’t know how, or it’s very complicated and not “mothers urge”

[edgy stone]

I think its lace talking

[uncut holly]

Full Phantom Needolin Dialogue: "Forgotten" "Discarded" "Silk Stretched Thin" "Shell Stiffened" "Claws Quivering" "FREE ME!" "Free me from this fading fate!"

[silk dirge]

like its so clear to me team cherry was just limited by having to rush hk

[foggy fractal]

this retcon bs has gone too far ! wdym little weavers don't exist anymore ! DOWN WITH TC.

[spark valve]

what makes you say she's going unloved the entirety of act 3 seems to suggest otherwise

[keen sedge]

Phantom

[uncut holly]

The Discarded is interesting it elludes that GMS discarded Phantom

[keen sedge]

Dialogue here is very well timed

[whole holly]

wdym? they can't easily reproduce part? that is weird but i think that didn't stop them from trying anyways

[woeful iron]

Oh my god, the mantis lords have an entirely different head shape than the rest of the mantis tribe and are much larger. They MUST be a different species

[spark valve]

she wants a daughter that isn't necessarily contradictory with discarding phantom if Lace is better

[potent patio]

Are Shakra and elder huu related?

[hasty flint]

The weavers themselves also tried spinning themselves a child to defeat GMS in the form of Eva and failed in what seems like the same direction as phantom, but magnified - extremely magically powerful but so physically frail she would unwind outside of containment

[spark valve]

I think we may be forgetting gms is a villain

[sacred heath]

gms really pulled a Locke and learned to love her children by fucking dying

[uncut holly]

I think she wanted a "perfect" daughter

[keen sedge]

Yeah but it still dodges the paternal instinct take, and again implies some other kind of attraction.

[foggy fractal]

gasp ? is she...

[uncut holly]

She likes Lace doesnt give a damn about Phantom

[odd mason]

what happens if you || open the gate in the pilgrims rest before killing the beast?||

[sacred heath]

they just leave

[uncut holly]

Ye i got it all

[silk dirge]

the void heart stuff is a bit confusing but like to me i feel like it gives the knight control of the void within hallownest or within a limited area

[whole holly]

that can be exception because WL accelerates growth of Species as well as infection happening to them

[sacred heath]

they just fuckin go

[sage flame]

So was GMS a spider?

[silk dirge]

like all of these can be excused when you consider team cherry made all of this stuff without another game in mind

[spark valve]

we know sustaining them is difficult I just don't see it as contradicting a maternal desire thing if she could only have one

[odd mason]

damn, not even a thank you

[woeful iron]

The mantis tribe isnt INFECTED

[sinful nimbus]

This is a false comparison because A) There wasn't a species the mantis lords resembled more closely than the mantes, B) Mantes clearly changed throughout their lifecycle and C) they were explicitly mantises 🥴

[potent patio]

Is shakra related to elder huu

[whole holly]

mantis lord dude

[keen sedge]

What do we mean by sustaining btw

[silk dirge]

if you take a book series they probably have another book in mind they want to make so they will do their best to fit the story

[spark valve]

lace's journal entry talks about taking an immense amount of silk to keep her alive

[keen sedge]

I feel like that’s familiar but I don’t remember where that’s from

[sacred heath]

i believe they do show up later tho so you can still beat the shit outta them for the hunters journal entry

[woeful iron]

Traitor mantises are a different group, if i was referring to them I would state such

[silk dirge]

team cherry didnt know they were going to make another game so they made a specific story for hallownest and then realized it was limiting for silksong and needed to change it

i dont see the big deal

[uncut holly]

Lace and Phantom are beings of pure silk, they need to be sustained with constant silk and seemingly burn through silk and soul rapidly

[foggy fractal]

who knows doesn't really matter I think
shes got a vaguely spider like design and that one attack where she uses silk presumably to attack with 8 arms but I think thats it

[keen sedge]

I see. Now I wanna reread the mirror dialogue

[uncut holly]

Silk is soul woven into a useable form seemingly. So really Lace and Phantom rapidly burn through Soul and need tons of Soul at all times

[odd mason]

ic ic, glad to know

[keen sedge]

The one in exhaust organ

[novel night]

i wonder what happens after the ending? does hornet become her new silk giver? 🤔

[sinful nimbus]

Its a big deal because the story is quite shallow and clearly not as deliberately thought out as HK's story was

[silk dirge]

if people are wondering how team cherry managed to have fun during development, its because they didnt limit themselves and let themsleves do what they want

[spark valve]

I think the 'silk stretched thin' aligns with that

[whole holly]

Traitor Lord is different, and Manitses experience changes as different stages of life, Mantis Sisters may just be older opposed to Weaver's who don't have those changes

[sinful nimbus]

Even if there were no retcons the story would be meh at best but retroactively changing the story of a really good game is what makes it subpar

[uncut holly]

The Mirror Dialogue in Exhaust roughly says, "why us?" and something along the lines of why did she make us like this

[keen sedge]

HK had holes everywhere, both games have what I’d like to say is really cool and really interesting worldbuilding and design

[uncut holly]

With Lace talking with Phantom in the memory

[keen sedge]

The only issue with SS imo is that I don’t have any empathy for either lace or GMS lol

[sinful nimbus]

HK holes were like Godhome and a few things that didn't make a whole lot of sense

[sacred heath]

iirc you can find them randomly in far fields in part 2 and || they appear in front of pilgrims rest in part 3 ||

[silk dirge]

if you really wish team cherry had less fun for themselves by limiting themselves with lore go ahead

[hasty flint]

Calling silksong’s story a full on retcon and shallow is the wildest fucking take I’ve heard lmao

[silk dirge]

but i wont join you with that

[spark valve]

this is definitely an issue it's pretty shoehorned in at the last minute

[uncut holly]

I mean Lace is meant to be psychotic, GMS also sucks. Tbf the Weavers also sucked the ones that stayed and didnt leave anyway

[keen sedge]

The pale king is dead to [redacted]. The white lady is so confusing the consensus is she’s senile

[bright pond]

they're also in ||memorium|| no?

[edgy stone]

I feel sad for lace but not gms

[uncut holly]

White Lady senile might be due to bindings

[silk dirge]

like ive read a lot of books i know a good story when i see one

[sinful nimbus]

But the comparison I like is that in SS you can remove the quest to gather 3 melodies/hearts and not much would change but in HK you absolutely cannot remove the dreamers whatsoever

[odd mason]

||i already killed it because i had to find the flea, but omfg that is such a stupid way to get there||

[keen sedge]

Foresight, higher being status, the timeline in general

[foggy fractal]

I feel sad for uhhhhh hmmmm,,, Gort

[whole holly]

i think us trying to fix HKs Plotholes more or less caused SS plotholes to shatter entire lorebook, which isn't first time to happend to loved media

[neat sandal]

doubt it need tons
I mean, it need much but not that you think that much

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King's death isn't really relevant and we have a good idea for how it happened
What you say about White Lady just... isn't true?

[edgy stone]

My main issue with ss is that a lot of deaths felt unnecessary tbh

[uncut holly]

I mean Hollow Knight original timeline definitely has plot holes and unexplained stuff. But it works. We cant really say anything because we dont know full Silk Song lore.

[edgy stone]

It felt like soulgame deaths where people just die if you do their quest

[uncut holly]

Some of the things are really interesting like The Marrow

[next sable]

it's really hard for us, the player, to sympathize with lace. however, hornet clearly does because of her relationship with the vessels.

[hasty flint]

Yes the hearts and melodies feel more extraneous and tacked on, I’ll admit that

[sinful nimbus]

Foresight furthers the idea that PK was up against an impossible task, HB status is incredibly irrelevant to like anything, and HK doesn't need an explicit timeline

[keen sedge]

You fix potholes by filling gaps not retconning established pieces of info. The story is fine and silksong pharloom is an awesome expansion of the game’s world.

[uncut holly]

Its said that much was done in the journal to keep them alive, and that their life is fragile because of the high cost

[hasty flint]

The dreamers were far more lore-integrated

[foggy fractal]

yeah I would've much rather had just bigger acts 1 and 2 that still played with these 3 melodies/hearts but more extensively/organically ? like getting them felt like a light walk in the park lmao

[silk dirge]

i think this is a bad comparison just because they are three things people automatically equated them

[woeful iron]

A, Hmm ok, so herrah resembles the "spider tribe" whom we know fuck all about but not the weavers because, why exactly??? She doesnt really look like any other creature in deepnest at all, I think this is actually a case of Named Character Looks Different For Visual Differentiation. B so do the weavers??? We see baby weavers are small as hell how do you know they dont get fat when they get older and herrah is just like an early weavers. C, there's nothing to say herrah explicitly wasnt a weavrr

[spark valve]

It’s a fair comparison

[keen sedge]

I think the point I’m trying to make is that HK felt closer tied to its theme. I’m willing to concede that maybe I’m not in deep enough with silksong to get it

[next sable]

true. you can quite literally speedrun your way through act 3

[sinful nimbus]

Well they are incredibly similar in terms of progression but one impacts the story and the other does not

[whole holly]

Higher Beings are biggest nitpick for me, they were consistent enough in HK but in SS we need new definition because Nyleth is almost as capable as Unn, but she gets discarded because she resembles Isma

[keen sedge]

There’s motherhood and a sort of focus on children and the future in general everywhere in SS

[sinful nimbus]

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/21204-vision

[uncut holly]

There is greater implication with Pharlooms greater longer stretched history. Like how The Marrow is apparently the dead place of Pharlooms great ancestors who sacrificed themself to build this kingdom. Definitely before the Weavers time but there is a sign at the entrance saying to pay respect

[keen sedge]

Less about letting go of the past and more about seizing the present and future

[spark valve]

I think the citadel and how it operates is a pretty big part of it the motherhood aspect just randomly becomes the entire point in act 3 which is jarring

[woeful iron]

How about instead of a stupid gotcha you actually reply to my points. Thanks 😊

[next sable]

there's a better way of conveying arguments without being passive-aggressive/fully aggressive btw

[keen sedge]

Yes exactly

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers don't change morphologically as they grow besides getting bigger

[woeful iron]

Says who

[uncut holly]

I feel like the lore could definitely be told better

[sacred heath]

yeah the melodies in SS feel a lot more like macguffins and thats not a good thing
at least you run into some interesting stuff on the journey

[sinful nimbus]

My eyes

[foggy fractal]

afaik act 3 is just
go down to abyss, return, get quest, get 3 hearts, red memory, final fight
right ?

[uncut holly]

The whole act 3 kind of relys on you knowing of Hollow Knight and the Void and especially the Delicate Flower

[woeful iron]

Not a valid response, answer the fucking question

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a "stupid gotcha" you'd get what I'm saying if you went to the wiki looked at the relevant images and came back

[keen sedge]

Lots more stuff opens up. essentially every area has new discoveries

[silk dirge]

to me the melodies felt like they werent supposed to be as grand of a quest as the dreamers were

[next sable]

correct. there's not really that many worthwhile quests and additions aside from memento hunting and verdania iirc

[spark valve]

The melodies make sense they actually direct you to important stuff about the citadel’s history

[foggy fractal]

yeah talking about mandatory stuff

[uncut holly]

Hollow Knight stood on its own, alot of the lore could be understood by following the Pale King, even if you dont know everything you get the important bits and understand whats happening by the end

[sinful nimbus]

We see young weavers then we see old weavers and the only difference is their size

In otherwords: My eyes

[foggy fractal]

my eyes !!!

[sinful nimbus]

If you can't utilize your vision to come to the relevant conclusions idk what to tell you

[spark valve]

Widow is far older than Herrah

[woeful iron]

Once again, named character syndrome

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/my-eyes-gif-5314502384487986587

[keen sedge]

I don’t understand the point here and feel like I disagree

[foggy fractal]

me whenever I see a weaver (round bald head)

[uncut holly]

Hollow Knight lore you got what was happening with no context even if you didnt fully

[sacred heath]

yeah, it’s not the destination that’s important it’s the journey
big fan of that actually

[whole holly]

because nothing implies otherwise, you can not prove weavers don't change because would would need to prove that weavers physiologically change in first place

[neat sandal]

much. but don't know how much
I think it just as much as their the body side
not that tons much

[uncut holly]

Silk Song lore you have no idea what a Delicate Flower or a Void is or why they turned into snails. It requires previous knowledge

[next sable]

true. basically, big bad light moth infects people's minds and the only way to stop it is to continue the cycle or go do dream shenanigans

[silk dirge]

a lot of sequels are like that

[uncut holly]

Yeah thats what I mean you get the general idea

[spark valve]

SS tells you enough about shit to mostly understand it on its own

[sinful nimbus]

The named character looked far more like another species so we assumed they were one idk what else to say

[hasty flint]

When the sequel contains story elements from the first entry:

[keen sedge]

Fuck powerscaling, here in the HK community we Age scale.
Top 10 oldest silksong npcs:
10: grandmother silk
9: bell eater
8: that biggest tree in shellwood
7: first sinner
6: the smelliest bog in bilewater

[potent patio]

So is elder huu related to shakra?

[silk dirge]

no

[uncut holly]

Playing hollow knight you know the story of the infection, and you know about the kings attempts to stop it. You can also learn about the Radiance the Pale King and the Hollow Knight by the end

[sinful nimbus]

Who up shipping Elder Hu x Shakra 🗣️

[sacred heath]

maybe?

[foggy fractal]

HELL NAW

[uncut holly]

You get all the important context bits. But in SS you dont know why the Weavers rebelled

[hasty flint]

That’s like jumping into the two towers and asking who the hell this Aragorn guy is or why the short people hate that piece of jewelry so much

[keen sedge]

I’ll get you. It’ll look like an accident

[sacred heath]

you’re going in the crystal

[woeful iron]

No they DONT. This OTHER SPECIES ISNT A THING FOR THEM TO LOOK LIKE.

Look me in the eyes and tell me the herrah looks more like midwife and stalking devout than she does idk traitor lord

[foggy fractal]

what

[uncut holly]

We dont even know or get a good idea why the Weavers rebelled at the end of the game. We get a clue that this is all happening because of Lace but we dont know why

[silk dirge]

this is probably because you are looking at this in retrospect you already know all hk lore

[potent patio]

They look like they come from the same tribe at least. Even their weapons are similar

[uncut holly]

That is very true

[silk dirge]

watch playthroughs of people playing hk and trying to understand the lore

[sacred heath]

neither of those are weavers

[keen sedge]

Does the spider look more like a centipede than the mantis

[woeful iron]

THATS THE POINT

[silk dirge]

they get a lot of shit wrong

[uncut holly]

Yeah thats true

[sinful nimbus]

Stalking devouts had the same fur and big bulky body

[thorny brook]

The DLC space is gonna go hard

[sacred heath]

not always

[uncut holly]

The Termites

[vivid kernel]

How is hornet a walking spider with 4 limbs instead of 8 and does cool stuff with a needle

[hasty flint]

I get the sense that the first sinner was part of it because she broke the news that they weren’t actually divine and were just modified regular bugs

[uncut holly]

Its technically deep enough for the abyss

[sinful nimbus]

Their limbs also were spread out in a similar manner compared to the weavers who have them pretty close together and iirc had less of them

[silk dirge]

ive watched quite a few hk playthroughs and i dont think anyone nailed the lore super well

[spark valve]

Coping so hard they’re claiming Herrah looks as much like traitor lord as a stalking devout is actually nuts

[hasty flint]

They hated her because she told the truth

[uncut holly]

We get elluded to that the First Sinner is likely the Pioneer of everything

[foggy fractal]

we've lost the plot

[whole holly]

gameplay? idk what else

[uncut holly]

Magic wise

[keen sedge]

Father was a worm (zero legs) mom was a spider (8 legs)
Averaged out she gets 4 limbs so it works

[glossy badge]

Is there a transcript of all the dialogue in the game accessible anywhere?

[vivid kernel]

How can a spider mate with a worm bro

[glossy badge]

Want to do some cross referencing

[lean temple]

The Wyrm is a god with magic powers

[foggy fractal]

hmmmm

[sinful nimbus]

Real answer her dad probably had 4 limbs and his children take after him more than their mothers

[silk dirge]

ok can we mention the 6 eyes tho

[keen sedge]

I’d start off with asking how the worm can teleport, read minds, and see the future, but okay, glad we’re sticking to grounding the game in reality

[woeful iron]

Firstly, herrah doesnt have fur, thats a cloak, like the other 2 dreamers have. Secondly "big bulky body" is such a nothingburger of a comparison. Traitor lord, fatass bees, large sentries

[silk dirge]

thats pretty significant

[foggy fractal]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fXWZMaeHiBTY1D6P2cuO929M0iXIYTXdeMifmLQ71sA/edit?usp=sharing hey skibidi here is the best thing I've got (silksong all text)

[glossy badge]

That works fully

[foggy fractal]

👍 thumbs up

[silk dirge]

its got all the metadata wtf

[spark valve]

No shot you’re being remotely honest in making this argument

[vivid kernel]

Good question how the hell can a worm do all that

[sinful nimbus]

Traitor Lord's body is not even remotely similar to Devouts or Herrah 🥴

[keen sedge]

Magic

[lean temple]

I think it's more likely Herrah made stalking devouts, they worship her after all.

[silk dirge]

this is literally unreadable wtf

not even joking

[woeful iron]

And a devout isnt remotely similar to herrah

[sacred heath]

god shit

[keen sedge]

Scroll down a little more

[spark valve]

By being a god

[silk dirge]

99% of the text is the metadata

[keen sedge]

Skill issue tbh

[hasty flint]

That said herrah doesn’t really look a lot like the weavers or weaverkin, I’ll admit that, but also nothing says that weavers, being artificial beings derived from a different bug base, can’t be made from any old bug

[vivid kernel]

This worm decided one day to evolute and "let's randomly be a god"

[sinful nimbus]

See this is why I linked the vision article

[sacred heath]

https://tenor.com/view/not-readin-allat-sabo-not-readin-allat-im-not-reading-all-that-shit-not-reading-that-sabo-reading-gif-1485552840077081398

[keen sedge]

Weavers are artificial?

[hasty flint]

Herrah could legit have been a mantis-like bug that was elevated by mother silk

[foggy fractal]

I think theres an option to select all of a certain text and then replace it
ctrl f plus something something

[sinful nimbus]

They all look basically the same Herrah is the only exception

[spark valve]

Sort of

[woeful iron]

Whats wrong with it exactly. A stalking devout and herrah do not look alike

[lean temple]

He isn't a worm. He is a WYRM, powerful godly beings.

[hasty flint]

First sinner shows us a Pharlid getting turned into a weaver

[keen sedge]

If it’s the same way mosskin are artificial then I don’t like the term used

[spark valve]

It’s a bad way to use the term

[silk dirge]

ok doing that is just passive aggresive tho and was unecessary

[sinful nimbus]

I just saw the WN concept art wtf

[vague field]

its more like forced evolution than artificial

[silk dirge]

i think everyone in this argument has been too aggresive me included

[keen sedge]

oookaay. I think I missed that part

[woeful iron]

THEY ARENT

[silk dirge]

so just like dont do shit like that please

[foggy fractal]

whats WN

[hasty flint]

Artificial might be the wrong word, forcibly elevated or modified yeah

[sinful nimbus]

winged nosk

[foggy fractal]

oh yeah

[uncut holly]

That looks like a Mantis Fly

[neat sandal]

herrah is weaver. while other weaver weaving she just lift
that why she bulky and become a leader

[sinful nimbus]

The insectoid wings are so much scarier than the weird dragon ones we got

[teal finch]

does anybody know where this is originally from? just curious cause i might get to organizing all of this and do want to provide some credit to whoever dumped it

[sacred heath]

fucked up how Herrah bears a better resemblance to gms than the rest of her species and she was probably made before GMS was even a concept

[woeful iron]

THESE 2 THINGS ARE NOT SIMILAR

[silk dirge]

yeah ok your just wrong

[sacred heath]

they kinda are

[vague field]

THEY ALL HAVE TO LOOK THE EXACT SAME !!!!!
getting into dangerous territory here bro

[silk dirge]

i dont agree with sending the vision article that was stupid as fuck but like come on

[uncut holly]

Wonder where Phantom says "Show me strength, spider..." I never found that while Needolin

Maybe i missed it

[woeful iron]

THATS WHAT THE OTHER HUY WAS SAYING ABOUT HERRAH NOT BEING A WEAVER OH MY FUCKING GOD

[uncut holly]

I mean we know Herrahs a Weaver because Hornet is one

[silk dirge]

what argument is even being made here

[vague field]

herrah is 100% weaver thats such a crazy argument

[hasty flint]

Herrah is certainly odd as far as weavers go, are we sure she’s a first generation weaver?

[spark valve]

yes

[silk dirge]

ive accepted herrah being a weaver is a retcon and accepted that its made silksong better and i do not give a shit in the slightest

[sinful nimbus]

They did all look the same in HK so like 🥴

[uncut holly]

Hornet is said to be half Weaver, and its because their a Weaver that their immune to the Silk Haunting

[woeful iron]

I said herrah was not retconned to be a weaver because it wasn't a confirmed detail that she wasn't in the first game

[spark valve]

because you don't know what a retcon is

[uncut holly]

They also have the ability to Bind a weird ability that Weavers of Silk can only do to other things touched by GMS. And seemingly GMS herself

[whole hawk]

I wonder if this means that Pharloom and the Citadel was originally a hindu/buddhist-adjacent culture that practiced heavy asceticism with the Citadel itself being a humble plain-looking temple. Or if this was just propaganda set up to fool pilgrims so that they stay repentant and non-materialistic.

[sacred heath]

unless herrah is like
half-weaver
and everyone is just exaggerating hornet’s weaver side

[uncut holly]

Well you can also Bind Dead people

[hasty flint]

Herrah could be the offspring of two weavers and still let hornet be half weaver, but eh, that’d be pushing it

[uncut holly]

Binding seems to just be subsuming knowledge of other things

[whole holly]

i believe we is half weaver half regular spider beast whatever

[vague field]

since all weavers are ascended arachnids, i think the most likely case is that she was a different arachnid species that got ascended by gms

could be 50 reasons

[foggy fractal]

afaik its the user Sumwan, she seems to have deleted the original message though ? probably because it was unorganized ?

[bright pond]

Does anyone know anything about "Strung to Serve"

[woeful iron]

Its not a retcon if nothing changes. Herrah wasn't confirmed not to be a weaver, making her explicitly a weaver doesnt change anything about the past game. Not a retcon

[vague field]

where tf is this i never saw this

[teal finch]

damn 😔 alright ill keep this in mind though!

[spark valve]

please google what a retcon is

[ancient dock]

How does the Void come back?

[vague field]

you are not listening

[silk dirge]

i think you would be best to accept its a retcon and just not care about it like me

[bright pond]

Strung to Serve is the name of "Ending_B" in text files, I'm pretty sure that text ends up being unused in the game

[whole hawk]

In the whispering vaults.

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing needs to be explicitly said to be retroactively changed

[uncut holly]

I think that the Weavers made spells to draw in Pilgrims to the Citadel using some of the instruments like see in The First Shrine which is the city of Songclave.

[hasty flint]

It’s not really a retcon as much as it was a pivot on something they never fully committed to before

[spark valve]

that is a form of retcon

[silk dirge]

as ive established i have 0 issue with retcons if team cherry had more fun doing game dev because they werent limited by hk lore then let them

[sinful nimbus]

If you believe something needs to be explicitly said to be true you just fundamentally don't understand how implicity or stories as a whole work

[blissful harbor]

herrah was stated to be a common beast, and had literally no exta relation to the in game weaver tribe in weavers den outside of being the queen of deepnest
it is absolutely a retcon

[spark valve]

herrah being a weaver isn't a big deal but it is a change

[woeful iron]

A REVISION if nothing was REVISED (changed) it isnt a RETCON

[vague field]

it was ambiguous before, it is confirmed now.
a retcon would be confirmation in hollow knight that she was not a weaver, then a pivot to saying she is one in ss.

[spark valve]

retcons can be innocuous or even good things doesn't make them not retcons

[uncut holly]

I mean it still makes sense, a Weaver is on a lower level than the Pale King

[silk dirge]

yeah its just been hammered into a negative context here

[sinful nimbus]

did bro ignore literally the next definition 🥴

[ancient dock]

Herra looks like a Weaver she has the 6 eyes like all weavers

[edgy barn]

She was said to be a common beast in relation to her own deceased mate, not the pale king

[vague field]

THERE WAS NO FIRST INTERPRETATION 💀 😭

[uncut holly]

That is true she does have the eyes I think

[blissful harbor]

most spiders do, look at the devouts

[severe siren]

Can we rename this chat to #retcon-discussion

[spark valve]

herrah's morphology compared with the inhabitants of deepnest in hk IMPLIED she was not a weaver
that's been changed making it a retcon

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah there was you could deduce Herrah was not a weaver by looking at her

[foggy fractal]

trueeee

RetconSong

[spark valve]

retcons aren't inherently bad idk why people get so angry about it being pointed out that there was one like chill

[foggy fractal]

🥶 CHILLS...

[woeful iron]

NO YOU COULDNT

[silk dirge]

can we rename this channel to #PUTTING-RETCONS-ALLOWED-TC-TO-HAVE-MORE-FUN-SHUT-UP

[vague field]

that was not a fact or guideline presented by team cherry in any capacity, that was just your assumption

[uncut holly]

Something weird is can other spiders weave silk or only Weavers. Its implied that only Weavers can weave silk which means the Weavers went to town on Deepnest

[woeful iron]

We didn't have DETAILS ON WEAVERS, we DIDNT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WEAVERS

[hasty flint]

I mean, the weavers all sort of realized they were common beasts and not godkin and that was part of the whole conflict

[sinful nimbus]

imo they should make an ss-hating channel where only I can talk

[sacred heath]

this whole situation is that
you are making some good points and some bad points
but half of the people here are too dense to tell the difference

[uncut holly]

I mean Silk itself in the Hollow Knight universe seems to be a unique form of Soul that is transformed into Silk and is only associated with GMS.

[sinful nimbus]

If you believe something needs to be explicitly said to be true you just fundamentally don't understand how implicity or stories as a whole work

[silk dirge]

yeah theyve said valid stuff but have some very hot takes many people would disagree with

[uncut holly]

I mean ther Deepnest bugs could be related to Weavers as in offspring

[blissful harbor]

surely you would think these are the same species from a glance

[bright pond]

Ending_A: ||Weaver Queen|| - ||Defeat Grand Mother Silk and bind her power||
Ending_B: ||Strung to Serve|| - ||Defeat Grand Mother Silk||
Ending_C: ||Snared Silk|| - ||Defeat Grand Mother Silk and entrap her with the Soul Snare||
Ending_D: ||Twisted Child|| - ||Defeat Grand Mother Silk while cursed||
Ending_E: ||Sister of the Void|| - ||Defeat Lost Lace and free Pharloom||

Of course take with a grain of salt for Ending_B

[blissful harbor]

surely

[spark valve]

weavers have a very hard time reproducing that is unlikely

[uncut holly]

But seems to imply that all Silk comes from GMS

[woeful iron]

Im not saying you CANT interpret hollow knight to say herrah wasn't a weaver what I am saying is that IT WASNT A CONFIRMED DETAIL

[spark valve]

it could be that only the soul infused silk can absolutely trace its origin back to gms, even nosk uses a sort of silk

[sinful nimbus]

OK but that doesn't make it not a retcon

[foggy fractal]

and even Silksong hammers the fact in that Weavers are usually this bulbous headed, slandered body, group

[vague field]

im not saying that at all !
im just saying that your assumption upon seeing herrah that she wasnt a weaver is completely your assumption, based on no other external evidence. to then say that it was a retcon would imply that team cherry implicitly stated or hinted at the fact that she wasnt, which didnt happen

[foggy fractal]

except for Herrah for some gosh darn reason

[uncut holly]

We never really see a distinction from magic Soul related Silk, and if there even is a normal Silk. It seems to just be Soul Related Silk that can have things etched into it for spells

[woeful iron]

Id argue weavers and stalking devout look more similar than herrah and stalking devouts

[blissful harbor]

anyways, herrah is clearly based on a sun spider i think it’s reasonable to say she wasn’t planned to be a weaver

[silk dirge]

literally just accept it i have by saying that its team cherrys game and if putting retcons in allowed them to have more fun making the game then there is absolutely 0 issue with it

[sinful nimbus]

Its objectively a retcon its up to you guys to decide whether or not you like that

OOOOOOOORRR you could listen to me telling you its bad because you trust me right?

[whole holly]

why does little weavers exist, are they just exceptions, with sheer amount that would be interesting

[blissful harbor]

bruh what

[spark valve]

little weavers don't make very much sense

[uncut holly]

We already know from Hollow Knight that Soul can be used to make spells. It seems that Silk is just Soul that can be written on for spells and used in different ways. But by default its just sticky silk

[woeful iron]

ITS NOT OBJECTIVELY A RETCON

[hasty flint]

Herrah being a weaver is a stretch that team cherry made that was fortunately not a hard retcon (denying something explicitly stated) but definitely hits the mark of a recontextualization

[severe siren]

I dont let myself get bothered about the whole retconning and shit cause team cherry 1. Just likes cool shit, and 2. Hollow knight was rushed, they didnt have time to implement new ideas or think of how to revise what was already there (and with a sequel in mind that also was initially unplanned)

[silk dirge]

i would much rather team cherry have fun expanding on hk lore than be stuck with bad foundations

[sinful nimbus]

Its inherently implied she was a regular spider by virtue of looking like a regular spider more than weaver

[silk dirge]

THIS 100000000000X TIMES

[woeful iron]

Split mask, rounded form. Idk what to say

[spark valve]

it's not that big a deal that it's a retcon

[blissful harbor]

the devouts are claws, not a mask
and literally only the head is round??

[sinful nimbus]

tammo since when were you an ss glazer

[sacred heath]

“it’s a retcon” and “it’s bad” are not the same thing
maybe it is a retcon that Herrah is a weaver, or a full blooded weaver, or whatever. Does it make the game worse? Not in my opinion

[sinful nimbus]

Fallen to the dark side

[foggy fractal]

this you my man (very chill and relaxed)

[blissful harbor]

idk saying devouts and weavers look similar is a huge stretch ngl

[woeful iron]

And how exactly is herrah more similar to a devout?

[spark valve]

I'm not I just don't think this is a real criticism in this case herrah being a weaver is fine for the sake of silksong

[silk dirge]

i hope you are lonely back there

[edgy barn]

Is there anything supporting that other than Herrah asking to have a child for the Pale King in exchange for being a dreamer?

[spark valve]

I have other issues with the narrative that are more substantial

[woeful iron]

I didn't say they were very similar i said weavers look more like devout than herrah looks like a devout

[severe siren]

Nothing wrong with retcons btw its their IP to steer in whatever direction

[spark valve]

.[NPC]:I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task. [Hornet]:I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also it's victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.

[severe siren]

Unless its like

[lean temple]

Waiting till the arguments about the new Steel lore start. Looks like it'll be a while

[whole holly]

they have line down in their face and same number of eyes but that is where similarities end, versus herrah being structurally similar to Stalking Devout

[sinful nimbus]

I don't mind retcons but this one was done for very little reason

[blissful harbor]

she has larger abdomen and not head, like the devouts
i personally think she’s a devout weaver mix

[silk dirge]

if the narrative issues are like roller coaster enthusiasts complaining about shit random guests dont care about i dont want to hear em

[severe siren]

Changing literally everything then its like ok this is ass

[woeful iron]

Structurally similar in what ways

[spark valve]

it marginally streamlines things and makes hornet's connection to the kingdom a bit more direct

[foggy fractal]

nah man shits peak

[silk dirge]

but maybe they arent

so who knows

[sinful nimbus]

She didn't need a direct connection to the kingdom she was kidnapped

[edgy barn]

I see

[vague field]

you have to be trolling

[spark valve]

no she doesn't need one

[silk dirge]

call me a ss glazer all you want i have 1.2k hours in celeste

[edgy barn]

I hate to say it but

[hasty flint]

Mechanically no but thematically it is better to have a connection

[silk dirge]

i know peak when i see it and enjoy it

[severe siren]

Those vespa sprites in the files make me have hope for future content

[whole holly]

same number of eyes, similar sized body proportion, same color plumage, similar overall appearence

[sinful nimbus]

She wasn't kidnapped for any thematic reason

[sacred heath]

you know what i had an idea
Silksong but Hornet isnt actually a weaver
everyone just assumes she is, so when she finally reaches GMS she’s like “what the fuck are you you’re not a weaver” and then hornet beats the shit out of her

[sinful nimbus]

Herrah being a weaver adds little to the themes

[edgy barn]

Consider the little weavers to be another retcon

[lapis creek]

does she actually say this in the game? people in another server are saying it might be cut and i dont remember

[foggy fractal]

did Hollow Knight have a scrapped boss in its files ?

[sinful nimbus]

SS if it was peak

[blissful harbor]

ive seen it

[bright pond]

does GMS have needolin dialogue

[severe siren]

No

[spark valve]

I think she does I could swear I read it in game first

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think you can needolin her

[hasty flint]

“Ah yes this random disconnected place i got dragged to which I have no reason to care about beyond neutralizing the threat that kidnapped me here” doesn’t hit as hard you know?

[silk dirge]

ss if it was more peak than it currently is

[sinful nimbus]

shrue shrue

[vague field]

she was kidnapped for her silk and divine origin, the driving force of the entire game and the plague behind the kingdom

[foggy fractal]

damn
Vespa out here being the only one
please TC make it happen make the boss real

[whole holly]

they also wear cloak so i think similarities are hidden but implied

[sinful nimbus]

Herrah didn't need to be a weaver for either of these

[spark valve]

also there is a section in the document with deprecated stuff and I'm pretty sure that's where all the cut text is

[sinful nimbus]

Her dad was a soul wizard her mother was a spider therefore you get soul silk

[severe siren]

Godseekers return except they attune to Hornet’s memories

Would drive the lore fans mad

[hasty flint]

Yeah if it weren’t for that it would be random kidnapping

[lime nova]

When the slab says "eighth of the twelfth" or "fourth of the first" I think they mean "eighth child of the twelfth child of Silk" and "fourth child of the first child of silk"

[vague field]

https://tenor.com/view/wall-gif-24534315

[limpid summit]

Not in its files but there were 3 scrapped warrior dreams

And likely a couple other scrapped bosses

[silk dirge]

meh that feels kind of weird to try to explain

[sinful nimbus]

Seems like it?

[hasty flint]

Just being unlucky enough to happen to have the right properties to make soul silk

[lapis creek]

and the addition that weavers have masks makes it pretty clean in general, but it is still a retcon

[silk dirge]

bc isnt silk in this game not regular old spider silk

[lime nova]

All silk is soul silk

[lapis creek]

say what you want about it

[silk dirge]

but like a magical thing

[limpid summit]

Not including ones like Dusk Knight/ King Golem that got merged or changed

[spark valve]

it's a fine retcon

[sinful nimbus]

Its pretty intuitive

[foggy fractal]

HYPE MOMENTS AND AURA 🥶 🥶 🥶

[sinful nimbus]

Vessels also have soul magic

[hasty flint]

Rather than having an emotionally powerful reason that she is pursued that ties in with family drama that took place in pharloom

[lime nova]

Don't all weavers do that though

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet's soul being infused with her thread isn't a big leap

[silk dirge]

true

[severe siren]

What was the point of herrah not being a weaver in HK1 to begin with

[uncut holly]

Silk in Hollow Knight verse is Soul turned into Silk. It can be written on and done spells with just like Soul but it likely allows you to do different things. It might be a medium for makings magic thats better

[lime nova]

Herrah is a weaver

[sinful nimbus]

Why would she be one

[silk dirge]

but like i genuinely do not care if herrah is a weaver or not

[hasty flint]

Mechanically it would work but again isn’t as thematically or emotionally powerful

[limpid summit]

To give her a reason to want a royal child beyond having a demigod that would rise up against GMS

[severe siren]

Like they didnt even give us much lore

[spark valve]

there wasn't like a narrative reason for her not having been one that just didn't appear to be the case

[severe siren]

Ahhhhh okay

[whole holly]

this changes very little because both Beasts/Pharlids and Weavers were same tribe so they could have interbred and product of that is clearly Herrah, which makes most sense in retrospect and makes sense why she was weaver as well as ruler

[limpid summit]

She didn’t need to have any powers anyway because she was sealed

[sinful nimbus]

The family drama is focused on GMS and Lace not with Hornet

[lime nova]

Herrah is absolutely a weaver, we just didn't know weavers could look like that

[silk dirge]

yeah i feel like regular old spider silk isnt the same

[sacred heath]

silksong absolutely still could exist if Herrah was not a weaver
hell, now that I think about it, it would make that one red memory scene go even harder than it already does

[dusky moon]

she ate too much

[woeful iron]

Same number of eyes isnt a point if the weavers also share it and we're arguing differences. Ill give you maybe similar proportions, herrah does not have plumage, that is a cloak, the other dreamers have similar cloaks. The overall appearance is not similar, entirely different head shape, herrah is bipedal, significantly taller/longer, underneath the mask devouts have extra claws found nowhere on herrah, herrah doesnt have face plates

[blissful harbor]

herrah actually used to look like widow but got fat from sleeping
that’s the only explanation

[spark valve]

that's like explicitly not why herrah wanted hornet

[foggy fractal]

RETCON RAGHHHHHHHHH

[lime nova]

Also guys I can't find the first sinner in the slab any advice

[blissful harbor]

like godseeker

[lapis creek]

get the key of apostate

[terse warren]

maybe because every single weaver looks the same as each other but completely different from herrah

[limpid summit]

Sorry rephrase
For the narrative to give Herrah a reason to have a royal child so she would become a dreamer

[sinful nimbus]

yeah explore apostate rooms

[lime nova]

I have the key of a prostate

[elfin niche]

Weavers always had masks

[limpid summit]

The prodtate is in bilewater

[terse warren]

im gonna be so honest i would've actually preferred if they straight up changed herrah's design to be more similar to a weaver

[spark valve]

mask is just used as a term for heads now

[lapis creek]

it wasn't clear if that was a mask or a body part

[vague field]

yet when you look at gms and lace, it perfectly paralells herrah and hornet as a mother/daughter relationship. divine/powerful beings with an intense will to have a child and their inability to be a parent for them after their conception/creation. Plenty more to say about this generational dynamic as well. if that isnt thematic idk what is

[lapis creek]

so are their heads just removable

[sinful nimbus]

Retcon number 11 OMG Im leaing a negative review 😔 😭

[lime nova]

Thank you ^^

[bright pond]

oh damn there's some text that's actually in a file called deprecated

[white panther]

Was Widow naturally coconuts or could it be that she was somewhat manipulated?

[sacred heath]

star you’ve convinced me I’m now “silksong could be better if Herrah was never a weaver” pilled

[lapis creek]

wasnt the idea with widow that the mask had been torn off

[spark valve]

I mean they did redesign her for the red memory

[blissful harbor]

is it? hornet seems to use it distinctly in journal entries but there might be some where she uses it for both

[terse warren]

forcibly removing a mask is a form of torture

[foggy fractal]

NOOO DON'T GIVE HER A FATASS HEAD

[hasty flint]

Yeah you give contrast that way

[sinful nimbus]

You get it

[terse warren]

true but should've been even more

[terse warren]

11???

[elfin niche]

Pretty sure Hornet is also wearing a mask.

[uncut holly]

Looking through the dialogue document im not sure what SILKHEART_ is but it seems to be GMS talking about stuff like the strung up Bell beast

[sinful nimbus]

You don't need Herrah to be a weaver for this to be true

[spark valve]

I mean in red memory she could totally have a weaver body type under there

[uncut holly]

One of them they call Lace "Loyal"

[blissful harbor]

i mean yea all they gotta do is give her her red memory look in HK

[silk dirge]

the only reason im pissed here is the red memory hate tho revisiting moments from hallownest was very impactful and amazing and no shit anyone says here can take that away

[lime nova]

Not all of them look like weavers. Herrah is clearly only a small percentage weaver, and she didn't wear a weaver mask

[blissful harbor]

make the blue cloak longer to cover her body and there, everything is perfect

[spark valve]

the distinctively non-weaver part is gone

[severe siren]

Loam is the most important character in the lore iirc afaik tbh ngl imo

[foggy fractal]

omg you pmo

[elfin niche]

Herrah is full Weaver at least per SS.

[sinful nimbus]

TS is just gaslighting

[lime nova]

Source?

[lapis creek]

choral commandment

[blissful harbor]

actually
i think i believe my hibernation made her big theory even more now lmao

[whole holly]

both herrah and stalking devouts have cloaks apparently which is propably reason why we don't see their actual bodies https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Stalking_Devout, dreamers all seem to have masks that hide their actual faces considering monomon was missing her for quite while. and seem to be part of reason of dreamers looking aesthetically uniform with their clothing style

[vague field]

true, but her being a weaver makes gms hornets inadvertant creator. it allows the actions of the creator of the weavers to come full circle as she is taken down by one, in her own pursuit of a false love

[terse warren]

herrah is a pure weaver, as Hornet is stated to only be half weaver in the choral commandment

[lapis creek]

hornet is a weaver in half part

[limpid summit]

I think Herrah being a weaver isn’t the worst thing the game did but the Deepnest spiders were already mysterious and lackluster in content compared to what the Weavers could have done in SS (distant village, trilobites, etc) and instead of giving us an insight into pre-Hallownest non-Weaver Deepnest they just made Herrah a weaver

[spark valve]

hornet is half weaver pk is 0% weaver therefore herrah must be a full weaver

[lime nova]

Choral commandment, okay. What is that again?

[uncut holly]

Lace is a "Child spun loyal"

[sinful nimbus]

I can hear Ari Gibson in my head saying "She always looked like a weaver, what do you mean Star? Its not a retcon. She never looked like the devouts" 😭

[uncut holly]

According to GMS

[foggy fractal]

damn y'all have gotten to have taken math and passed

I could never

[terse warren]

relic that you give to guy in bellhart

[elfin niche]

I do think it would have been better if Herrah was not a weaver but there you go

[silk dirge]

i mean you cant mind read him maybe he genuinely thought that

[elfin niche]

It's not the worst retcon

[spark valve]

Decree of the Citadel, dirty and worn. "Full Chamber to the kingdom of the White Wyrm. Claim the Weaver, in half part. Last of their line. Sensed strong with Silk. Resistance anticipated. Quell with rune cage."

[lapis creek]

we got to bio too

[limpid summit]

You give a relic to Scourge

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really think this is a theme hinted at in SS

[foggy fractal]

yo what if we go to australia and ask him

[uncut holly]

Lace is also "Pure..." according to GMS

[sacred bolt]

unless i missed something, is it ever said why hornet was kidnapped and brought to pharloom?

[uncut holly]

I got no clue

[silk dirge]

for me what made silksongs story so good is its relatable to me

[golden olive]

pure compared to THEM, wtever that means

[silk dirge]

hornets just a girl in a fucked up world and she wants to make it not fucked up

[sacred heath]

my big reason is that it makes that one red memory scene go crazy hard
everyone’s hyping up Hornet assimilating the weaver talents and she feels like she’s inevitability tied up to become a weaver
then she has the red memory sequence where she sees her non weaver mother and realizes “actually fuck that i don’t NEED to be a weaver nobody gets to choose what I am but ME”
curtains draw crowd roars roll credits

[sinful nimbus]

Ok Ms Spider dragon

[woeful iron]

Where does it say the devouts have cloaks. The journal entry doesnt say that so im going to have to assume you have some kind of external source im not seeing on this page

[severe siren]

What if we just say that Ari sucks at being consistent with the character designs and forgot what Herrah looked like after several painful years of drawing every single asset and character designs for every frame

[silk dirge]

very relatable story that connected with me a lot more than celestes

[blissful harbor]

you can see the cloak on its back

[vague field]

what about every single action taken by gms in regards to lace, especially in act three

[uncut holly]

Oh damn, the memories of the Pilgrims are all about running and being in terror

[foggy fractal]

wait dude don't give them that idea now people are gonna start saying PK is some part Weaver !!!

[silk dirge]

you are getting sealposted now neither of those are part of my identity

[spark valve]

surely he didn't go back and look at her to redesign her in ss

[sage flame]

What the hell is Sinner’s Road supposed to be?

[silk dirge]

https://tenor.com/view/seal-bounce-bouncy-nod-nodding-gif-2130143378239897027

get seal posted

[blissful harbor]

holding cells

[vague field]

food farm

[terse warren]

this is confirmed by the fact that hornet's cloak is a slightly different color in SS compared to her boss fight in HK

[limpid summit]

Sort of the badlands of Pharloom

[whole holly]

me then i am randomely concieved by common beast and pale being to be protector of kingdom

[sacred heath]

maybe now I’m a bit more “herrah is only partly weaver” pilled now

[sage flame]

They have The Slab

[limpid summit]

You know how there’s always those sundown town factory farms

[sinful nimbus]

I think its more the idea that Hornet being GMS's creation and taking her down is thematically relevant

[hasty flint]

It’s more impactful if it’s her actual bloodline she’s denying too. Like she’s already denying the pale lineage impulses for dominance

[spark valve]

green prince is the exception it's mostly not a prison

[blissful harbor]

isn’t the slab actual jail

[elfin niche]

Herrah is full Weaver.

We have textual confirmation Hornet is half Weaver.

[silk dirge]

its like she was but she just seems like she wants to live her life and be chill

[flat kernel]

Gms is has similar powers to the pale king

[elfin niche]

Given PK is 0% Weaver, Herrah has to be 100% Weaver.

[blissful harbor]

like they keep them in sinners road before being transported to the slab

[foggy fractal]

btw there was a few people under Additional Environment Dressing
what does this mean ? extra background asset art ?

[sacred heath]

exaggeration on the part of every single person in the story

[silk dirge]

she was born into the role of protector of hallownest or whatever and never got a choice

[whole holly]

Stalking Devouts are enemies in Hollow Knight. They are cloaked worshippers of Herrah the Beast who use their foreclaws to shield their head.[1][2] https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Stalking_Devout#cite_note-2

[spark valve]

she doesn't really

[elfin niche]

Unless.you invent some kind of new Weaver math.

[woeful iron]

And is there a reason that isnt fur of a sort?

[blissful harbor]

that’s the vibe i got

[vague field]

i feel that its thematically relevent because its exactly what every single weaver who defied gms/ran away and perished failed to do

[lime nova]

I wonder if "first of the first" "first child of the first child of silk" or "first child of the the first weaver (silk)"

[vague field]

hornet ends the cycle

[blissful harbor]

why would we assume it’s fur???

[limpid summit]

Herrah is full Weaver my cope headcanon is that the Weavers used a version of GMS’s innate powers to turn the “common” queen into a Weaver

[spark valve]

"cloaked"

[flat kernel]

Hornet says gms didn't give consciousness to the bugs in the surface

[terse warren]

it's literally written in text

[uncut holly]

Reading more and more GMS thoughts, GMS seems to see Lace as "Mine..." "Pure..." and "Loyal..." "Child Spun Loyal..."

[spark valve]

that's not about consciousness it's about the haunting

[woeful iron]

Im gonna take anything on the wiki not stated in game with a grain of salt if you dont mind

[lean temple]

It literally says that they're cloaked

[sacred heath]

you know what? I’ll concede on that. but it could contrast with HK
hk theme of defying your past vs silksong theme of defying your future

[severe siren]

GUYS WHAT IF HERRAH IS A GESTATIONAL SURROGATE

[sacred heath]

made up by the citadel to deceive you

[flat kernel]

Ooooh

[lapis creek]

lmao

[whole holly]

well, it has sources you can verify

[silk dirge]

like i think i didnt pay too much attention to the wider story of pharloom as much as hornets personal journey bc i connected that much with her

[sinful nimbus]

But would this not only fit if she was the creation of GMS?

[blissful harbor]

unless you have a reason to believe it’s fur, which very few things have
it’s safe to assume it’s a cloak

[sinful nimbus]

Her link to her is slightly tenuous and not focused on too much

[uncut holly]

I think GMS just wants a loyal perfect kid, the only question is then when Lace betrayed GMS why didnt GMS have a break and take her child down with her if she only wanted her for window dressing

[elfin niche]

What's confusing me is when Silksong said the White Lady was a Weaver.

[foggy fractal]

what ??

[lime nova]

Oh okay yeah she's half weaver ok

[limpid summit]

I don’t know why Hornet is so intent on forsaking her Wyrm side when everything she sees and hears in Pharloom points her toward the Weavers being terrible

[hasty flint]

Yknow what, that’s also a valid take. But as Mr mushroom said, those that see the future are blind to the past. Hornet saw a future untethered from her past

[foggy fractal]

when did it ever say that

[elfin niche]

And also it was very strange when Sherma turned out to be a Weaver.

[sinful nimbus]

these retcons are getting too wild for me man 😭

[limpid summit]

Huhhh

[foggy fractal]

NO WHAT

[woeful iron]

Large spider irl very often have fur. Like a ton of things in silksong have fur that hornet comments on.

[foggy fractal]

I HAVE GOT TO REPLAY THIS GAME DUDE

[silk dirge]

like im a trans girl who just wants to live her life in a world that doesnt want to kill me

hornet isnt trans(unless team cherry was super based) but she is also born into a cruel world that wants to kill her

[golden olive]

from wanderer’s journal

[foggy fractal]

😭 NOT MY GOAT SHERMA

[blissful harbor]

silk song, hallownest is not pharloom lmao there are very few furred bugs in pharloom

[spark valve]

the weavers in hallownest didn't do that shit and she doesn't really know how bad the weavers are for most of it

[silk dirge]

its actually very relatable like genuinely /srs

[blissful harbor]

well there ya go lmao

[lean temple]

Because the Wyrm side drives her to monarchy and dominance which she doesn't want to do

[silk dirge]

im not joking in the slightest

[woeful iron]

Ok, that is evidence. I concede

[silk dirge]

that i connected a lot more with hornet than madeline

[golden olive]

im not cloaking in the slightest

[limpid summit]

If anything Silksong suggests White Lady is a Root rather than a unique higher being like Unn Rad or NMH

[hasty flint]

At least him being a weaver explained how menderbug fixed things so fast, but I feel there are other explanations team cherry could have gone with

[sinful nimbus]

First game: Genderqueer protagonist
Second game: No genderqueer protagonist

I rest my case as to why SS has a worse story

[haughty shadow]

solidarity girlie

[uncut holly]

Anyone know when Lace says this "But what a bore it would be to cut you down now, when you're so achingly close to our grand Citadel..."

[foggy fractal]

grrr WOKE CHERRY...

[sinful nimbus]

Also afaik SS has less gay couples too

[severe siren]

Hornet kills several homosexuals throughout the game

[limpid summit]

You meet her in Greymoor if you skip her fight

[foggy fractal]

how many did Hollow Knight have ? 2 confirmed right ?

[spark valve]

can't believe tc is homophobic now

[blissful harbor]

you can skip laces fight? the first one?

[silk dirge]

i mean cogwork and clover dancers count as separate couples so

[limpid summit]

I think Nola’s a girl

[silk dirge]

also isnt phantom enby or smth

[whole holly]

i knew it was from wanderer's journal, considering that it was one of sources for wiki shows that @woeful iron didn't actually care about evidence but wanted to find excuse to invalidate my point

[limpid summit]

Yeah I don’t know how but I saw a screenshot of her sitting on some gate

[narrow hinge]

wait so garmond dies right

[sacred heath]

FUCK you’re right… dlc better fix this QUICK or I’m REFUNDING ‼️

[sinful nimbus]

Those are two people and one couple

[limpid summit]

Yes 💔

[spark valve]

ss only has like one canon couple which makes it 100% gay as opposed to ss which is 50% gay

[foggy fractal]

we don't even know what Nola is tho
could be a beloved pet right ? who knows

thats why I said two confirmed

[hasty flint]

Yeah but hornet cures her wing dysphoria (alluded to in the journals) by climbing a mountain and getting the faydown cloak which is totally Celeste coded

[woeful iron]

I literally just already spoke about the journal saying I conceded the cloak thing

[sinful nimbus]

This was my theory but she's a daughter of GMS

GMS hates men like Hornet so she doesn't make any boys

[severe siren]

Are conchflies hetero or homo
Trust me this is integral to the lore

[golden olive]

you can go through wormways with a key or somehow pogo up to shellwood and get walljump 💀

[glossy badge]

Lace calls Phantom sister so

[elfin niche]

Widow is Hornet's aunt.

[limpid summit]

LOOK at them

[whole holly]

but when it wasn't obvious you ignored it

[uncut holly]

Im getting the impression that Lace isnt alive. You dont really get that in game but from Laces own words and understanding what Silk is it makes sense.

[elfin niche]

Phantom is also Hornet's aunt.

[foggy fractal]

GRRRRR FROM TWO GAY COUPLES DOWN TO ONE... TEAM CHERRY !!!! (shakes fist angrily up in the air)

[elfin niche]

Eva? Hornet's aunt.

[severe siren]

Homo it is

[sinful nimbus]

true...

[lethal turtle]

yo does anyone getting a note about the side lore? if yes can they send me by any chance?

[uncut holly]

Lace is literally a automaton, a complex series of codes put into Silk to make them act like a child

[bright pond]

but the note in journal says Their

[limpid summit]

Mottled Skaar? Hornet’s ant.

[vague field]

some ppl like proof before they instantly believe something lmao

[elfin niche]

Lace? Surprisingly, also Hornet's aunt.

[spark valve]

ok but this is an increase in proportion from 2/4 to 1/1

[silk dirge]

MR MUSHROOM REFERENCES CELESTE AND YOU CANT CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE

[bright pond]

Though grey with age, their frayed form suggested a being strung from Silk, one who welcomed a decisive end in combat over a slow decline.

[uncut holly]

They literally say this that they arent alive just silk that is pressed to act like a child

[sacred heath]

phantom is enby though and they got discarded
gms is enbyphobic this is so sad…

[hasty flint]

Hornet textually denies this in the journal entry (strange life, but life nonetheless)

[woeful iron]

Because there were other explanations I had already subscribed to?? Thats how this works?? When confronted with evidence I realized my mistake thats like the entire point of doing this

[golden olive]

why? i thought the game makes it a large point that lace’s life was a life

[uncut holly]

Yeah but that Hornet doing that

[sinful nimbus]

OK but like the opposite is said

[uncut holly]

Hornet says that just because they arent conventionally alive doesnt mean they arent

[limpid summit]

Hornet asserts that she is “alive” despite her unique conception, citing the vessels

[foggy fractal]

Sorry my friend but could you kindly elaborate for me as to what 2/4 to 1/1 means in this context ?

[elfin niche]

Hornet isn't alive.

[silk dirge]

mr mushroom quite literally says something about climbing a mountain and leaving something behind and i was like thats gotta be a celeste reference

[spark valve]

canon couples with determinable sexualities

[glossy badge]

Ah, I'm not sure, I just know the big needolin dialogue in organ has Lace repeatedly (and I mean repeatedly) say sister

[uncut holly]

But in actuality Laces argument is they are literally Silk that has been woven with commands on it to make them act like a child

[elfin niche]

Not when I play anyway.

[foggy fractal]

I see

[silk dirge]

like you left a part of yourself behind by trying to ignore it

[whole holly]

Wiki has Sources for Wanderer's Journal which did contain evidence, wiki stated it based on Wanderer's Journal and cited it as source, she could have verified

[sinful nimbus]

So you hate bi people?

[uncut holly]

GMS is weird

[bright pond]

wait the needolin dialogue in organ is Lace?

[limpid summit]

Yes

[sinful nimbus]

Kinda problematic

[golden olive]

what do u consider alive in this context

[glossy badge]

Seems to be Lace's sillhouette?

[woeful iron]

I do not own the wanderers journal

[limpid summit]

You see Lace up against Phantom’s tube

[sacred heath]

Hornet told Lace her life means everything and she should love herself now
unfortunately lace fucking died before she could understand it

[bright pond]

hmmm

[spark valve]

you should probably play act 3

[bright pond]

maybe lace is enbyphobic

[woeful iron]

Nor do I know how to view its contents online

[elfin niche]

When you hit Lace you regenerate Silk, therefore Lace had SOUL, therefore Lace is alive.

[foggy fractal]

we have to rename all these emojis to start with a K instead now lmao

[glossy badge]

Lace would never!

[elfin niche]

QED