sk-lore

[native mural]

What exactly is a crest?

[fading whale]

so, im pretty sure the nameless town is that snail village that was suppossed to be in hollow knight so long ago

[whole holly]

it would, appearance is subjective and not depended on behavior

[sinful nimbus]

You would expect the wording to be a lot different if they considered it unfavorably

[fading whale]

all the houses look like snail shells and so does the snail shell next to the silhouette that gives needolin dialogue

[maiden meteor]

it’s basically a warning for other mosskin to not fall for Queen’s appearance

[sinful nimbus]

Its a clear stranger danger sign

[whole holly]

no they are saying she looks harmless she isn't

[lean temple]

Eva defines it in dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

"Don't trust the foreigner squatting in our abandoned land"

[sinful nimbus]

They don't say she isn't harmless

They say to be wary but they don't imply she's malicious

[whole holly]

they don't have to if she is obviously squatting in Unn's Lands

[whole holly]

WL has to be deported to White Palace

[somber storm]

what's the steel soul room in high halls?

[sinful nimbus]

Its not considered to be their lands

[empty sierra]

i forgot what area white lady was in, was it queens gardens or greenpath

[sinful nimbus]

She is not implied to be a trespasser

[maiden meteor]

we also see what was mosskin chapel right on the edge of gardens and was likely used up until infection

[sinful nimbus]

That's not part of QG

[maiden meteor]

which would be weird to place on the edge of abandoned land

[sinful nimbus]

It wasn't always abandoned

Also there's the notable fact that they still don't use QG or FC even after they were abandoned by Hallownest

[whole holly]

that is disingenuous statement considering it used to be theirs and is historcally unn's land, she is not native to it and doesn't have rightful claim unless she annexed it

[sinful nimbus]

It is not implied that it was still a part of Greenpath if anything it was the opposite

[brisk viper]

theoretically is it gonna be easy to go for the 30 hour 100% speedrun achievement after doing an average 5 hours speedrun run

[sinful nimbus]

Shouldn't be too bad if you know tool and flea locations

[brisk viper]

ok sweet. im thinking of going for both

[whole holly]

that is not what i am arguing, but biologically and historically it is Unn's land as well as Fog Canyon, it seems to be taken by force, because Greenpath's law don't apply anymore

[lean temple]

Still not nice to move into abandoned land instead of helping them with it.

[sinful nimbus]

How would they help them

[lean temple]

See if they can help Unn

[whole holly]

maybe not occupying it

[lean temple]

Instead of taking advantage of her weakening

[sinful nimbus]

Greenpath's law wouldn't apply if there was no one left in the area either

[sinful nimbus]

No one was gonna do that anyway

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know why you assume she can be helped

[whole holly]

it seems WL was as well as one fo Dreamers because they decided to settle in QG and FC

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but not the mosskin

[dry heart]

but how come the void couldnt kill grandmothersilk just yet? im confused

ok i didnt mean to reply to that message sorry

[sinful nimbus]

Repurposing abandoned land is hardly unethical

[lean temple]

Idk maybe the two literal deities can at least try something

[obsidian quail]

she was resisting

because of lace

[sinful nimbus]

TK is a deity and it doesn't try something even after literally seeing Unn

[dry heart]

so how couldnt the radiance resist then? or is it cause the knight already beat her down

[sinful nimbus]

Is it immoral for it to do nothing?

[lean temple]

I'm talking about WL and PK who said anything about TK

[obsidian quail]

yes the knight beat her up

[sinful nimbus]

Well you're logic was "They're a deity why didn't they fix it"

[dry heart]

your****

yuo'er****

[sinful nimbus]

TK is also a deity after Void Heart and it doesn't try to fix it but I don't see anyone slandering TK for doing nothing

[whole holly]

Moss Prophet and some Mossy Vagabonds are in Queen's Gardens so clearly it isn't abandoned

[dry heart]

so what powers did knight actually gain after void heart cause

[whole holly]

if anything, it is most likely abandoned because WL and Dreamer settled in it

[lean temple]

TK isn't a ruler whose neighbor is losing power and land

[sinful nimbus]

They are not in the occupied part of QG with infrastructure

[maiden meteor]

Queen seizing large portion of Greenpath could as well be what weakened Unn in first place

[lean temple]

The PK and WL were the monarchs of Hallownest and both gods who could've tried to find some way of helping Unn instead of taking the land all for themselves.

[sinful nimbus]

Okay but I struggle to see why you believe it was immoral for the pale beings to not attempt to save their neighbor who is not part of their kingdom
Mind you the entire notion that Unn could be helped by them is made up in the first place

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think King would really want to help potential rivals

[sinful nimbus]

Unn wasn't a rival

She and PK were chill and had diplomatic relations

[dry heart]

whats wrong with unn? why does hge need help anyway

[lean temple]

Not trying to help sick people is not frowned upon?

[sharp hawk]

Just beat act 3 would that be considered to be the true ending of silksong (saving lace) or is there anything else

[whole holly]

because of WL and her guards, so they were preventing Mosskin form using their own lands "Before you rang the bell, I'd almost forgotten this station existed. It was not often used by the common bugs, being a well-guarded retreat for our late Queen." so it shows mosskin would inhabit it if not for WL

[sinful nimbus]

Well I'm not a doctor and I lack the means to adequately cure my nextdoor neighbors of a hypothetical ailment

[lean temple]

You are a god

Two gods

[sinful nimbus]

He is not the god of curing weakening higher beings

[dry heart]

ngl @lean temple are you ragebaiting?

[sinful nimbus]

Neither is White Lady. You can't just make up powers and say "He's a god so it makes sense"

[dry heart]

cause if so its working

[lean temple]

It's just not a nice move to take over your neighbor's land because they're weak. I wouldn't imagine it would go well if it happened irl...

[whole holly]

so Queen's Garden was clearly annexed and became separate by force not by Unn's will, Green mother and her people were taken advantage of.

[limpid summit]

We don’t really know the circumstances or timeline of Unn’s weakening

[maiden meteor]

Garden wouldnt be the first time Hallownest tries to annex something either

[limpid summit]

Queens Gardens and Fog Canyon likely did belong to her

[sinful nimbus]

Its more like if I set up shop in a closed down store after the owner died of illness

[sinful nimbus]

What did they try to annex

[lean temple]

No? It's a land that had a deity and people living in it?

[whole holly]

it was likely because of excessive use of her Power's, accelerated by infection and her spending her energy trying to call to mosskin

[sinful nimbus]

My claim was that both of those people abandoned it

[lean temple]

You're comparing taking over QG with what Lemm did

[sinful nimbus]

I do not believe they forcefully took QG while it was occupied

If they did that would be bad yes

[lean temple]

They didn't leave to another kingdom. They're still right next door and acknowledge you took their land, and warn against going back there.

[whole holly]

and preventing relatives from moving in

[sinful nimbus]

Just because they are next door does not mean they were occupying the actual place we are talking about

[limpid summit]

Though once our lands, a pale being lays claim to the caverns ahead. It may appear benevolent but it does not share our dream

This implies that the Mosskin saw WL as benevolent and avoided her simply because she wasn’t Unn

We can’t really make assumptions about the land transfer

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah stranger danger type warning

[sinful nimbus]

If it was forceful they would not take too kindly too it

[lean temple]

What would happen if they tried going back?

[sinful nimbus]

I dunno

[whole holly]

is Unn dead after games events?

[limpid summit]

Well

[gaunt anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/rage-bait-gif-17870535188958174605

[whole holly]

Queen's Gardens was guarded

[limpid summit]

We see Mosscreeps in GP but Mossflies in QG

[sinful nimbus]

Don't know why that would be the case

[limpid summit]

There’s a theory that White Lady has ambient growth powers

Acceleration of natural function

[whole holly]

with unn being weak they did not have much of choice

[limpid summit]

Could be that the Mosskin feared they would be transformed and no longer be under Unn

[sinful nimbus]

Mossflies are stated to be cousins to Mosscreeps in WJ iirc but yeah

[limber anvil]

OK have finished everything to Do in silksong I mean everything... Now time to hang out in the lore channel

[limpid summit]

True

[sinful nimbus]

They wouldn't have the means of resisting but they sure wouldn't describe White Lady as appearing benevolent if she stole cherished land

[limpid summit]

But you could also point to Marmu and the Delicate Flowers

[limber anvil]

Different moss not related to hollownest they are different green colors

[sinful nimbus]

And the wack plants

[maiden meteor]

Someone appearing benevolent to someone doesn’t mean they also don’t acknowledge possible danger

[sinful nimbus]

And the fact that even juvenile mantes have characteristics of older ones like the horns

[sinful nimbus]

They are acknowledging possible danger

[whole holly]

WL does appear benevolent despite what she did, you are reusing flawed arguments, Mosskin's perception is accurate because appearing benevolent could imply she is secretly malevolent.

[sinful nimbus]

how do you "appear" benevolent visually

It makes little sense for the tablet to be talking about that

[limpid summit]

The lore tablet says WL doesn’t share their dream that appears relatively benign

If the kingdom presented an outright risk they wouldn’t even let the Mosskin go there

[maiden meteor]

remember that dream is a creation myth for mosskin

[spark valve]

“Ay she’s a plant but she’s not one of ours keep an eye open”

[graceful wigeon]

I'm trying to find if GMS has needolin dialogue or not. But it seems when the question was asked, it was ignored.

[sinful nimbus]

It would make more sense if it was like "They seem benevolent but they have stolen our lands" or something like that

[whole holly]

it is subjective, but i imagine Mosskin are naturally attracted to her Light/Essence/Dream way they are attracted to Radiance's Light, it fits in context of her not sharing their dream implied to be unn's essence

[limpid summit]

Bosses don’t

[maiden meteor]

so I’d imagine not sharing their dream is a big deal

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't

[sinful nimbus]

Those aren't really things she's known for

[whole holly]

elaborate

[tall plinth]

Did the void completely subside in pharloom after the true ending?

[sinful nimbus]

Not much to elaborate on, her main thing seems to be soul and accelerating growth not essence

[graceful wigeon]

Well, that's disappointing. Does her arm in Act 3 give anything or nothing too? (Needolin-wise, I already know about the skill you get from it, which is great)

[edgy river]

Os there any stated reason for the radiances infection to look so similar to Lifeblood/Plasmium?

[maiden meteor]

I imagine Knight took care of whatever void might have remained

[lean temple]

There's also what Hornet says about Pale Beings in general "Devotion or destruction, these are the only 2 fates my kind accepts."

[sinful nimbus]

That clearly isn't true though

[lean temple]

It's very interesting that Hornet is saying all of this though

[tall plinth]

Does anybody know?

[edgy river]

White lady seemed pretty chill, but i guess she was with Pale kind tho

[sinful nimbus]

Its not like PK wiped out the mantes or hive

[lean temple]

Not only about PBs but also the stuff with PK

[whole holly]

she does have unique essence despite not being 'known' for it, it may be just enough to seem benevolent to mosskin, and not sharing Unn's essence and being separate higher being is why she is dangerous

[tall plinth]

Ahh

[sinful nimbus]

This doesn't seem implied like at all though

[ripe locust]

Does anyone know whose dialoque is that? "A traveler, I see? You've come a long way, but the Citadel awaits. Many pilgrims stop here to rest and ready themselves for the final ascent. This old shack may not look like much, but within its walls, you'll find respite and, more importantly, tools for your journey. Faith alone won't open every gate, after all. The hunt is on, little one. The peak of Pharloom calls to those brave enough to answer. Now, shall we trade? My wares are... unorthodox, but each is forged with a specific purpose in mind."

[edgy river]

Tbf the pale beings she knew were basically all roughless rulers. And herself can fall to this in the normal ending

[maiden meteor]

Unn is probably on the weaker end of HB spectrum so PK didn’t see any reason to completely subdue her

[lean temple]

I know, both she and PK. But why would Hornet make such a statement when the only Pale higher beings we know are WL, PK, and GMS?

[maiden meteor]

and Hive was protected by virtue of being in Kingdom’s edge which was likely off-limits territory to Hallownest

[edgy river]

And hornet*

[whole holly]

how so, HBs have essence to extent, and WL being seemingly benevolent is mentioned in context of not sharing mosskin's dream

[limber anvil]

Radiance is implied to be pale as well

[lean temple]

Where? Being a light doesn't make you pale

[limber anvil]

And lace is implied as pale by hornet.

[lean temple]

Because GMS is Pale. Once again, I said Pale HIGHER BEINGS

[sinful nimbus]

Its not like Unn is implied to have a unique type of essence or whatever

[edgy river]

Which clearly also has an interest into doing that inside her. Which she succumbs to in the base ending.

Maybe she is saying this because she know even herself feels a little bit like that, even if she can ignore it and try to do the right thing in true ending

[limber anvil]

All higher beings have unique dream essense in godhome.

[lean temple]

The Vessels would also be pale by extension

[whole holly]

pale doesn't automatically make you Pale Being, it just makes you visibly pale, Palestag isn't Pale Being

[maiden meteor]

I think HBs being referred by their “brightness” might be based on their strength

[neat sandal]

where you get this?

[maiden meteor]

Unn doesn’t shine at all because of being on weaker spectrum, Pale beings are somewhere in the middle and Radiance is “blinding light”

[whole holly]

well Dreams and Essence are basically same, she dreamt up mosskin and all foliage so i don't know why mosskin wouldn't recognize unn's essence

[edgy river]

I'm a good bit behind since i just finished the game today. What is the reason hornet is different than the siblings if she clearly has void in her in this game?

[maiden meteor]

mossbag take thee

[tawdry flare]

what do you MEAN Hornet has void in her

[lean temple]

She doesn't? It literally kills her?

[sinful nimbus]

And White Lady isn't part of that foliage so like

[edgy river]

When a guy says she's a bug in this game she literally says that she is "partly" a big iirc

[whole holly]

well she does just limited

[tawdry flare]

yes because she is also partly a god

[edgy river]

Which i thought implied she was fabricated in some way. Also a shadow dismantles itself when you break the cocoon

[ripe locust]

I remember some trader saying this but idk which one

[zinc ice]

"part weaver part wyrm"

wyrms are not bugs they r like gods im pretty sure

idk if thats talking abt the void

[tawdry flare]

That’s like her regrets or something IDK what the lore reason for that apparition is (there probably isn’t one) but it definitely isn’t void

[whole holly]

they likely can recognize things that aren't unn's light, such as Radiance's Light so it makes sense they would recognize WL distinct essence as well

[sinful nimbus]

I mean sure

[edgy river]

Sure, idk why they even put that in there tbh it's just confusing

[naive talon]

||SHERMA's WHERE?????||

[sinful nimbus]

I don't see how it proves your point however

[zinc ice]

||healer sherma||

[limpid summit]

You got this

Go save him

[whole holly]

Wl not sharing Mosskin's Dreams is pretty direct statement to that

[naive talon]

i havent beaten the boss their yet tho

[limpid summit]

You don’t have to I don’t think

[zinc ice]

ya u dont

[limpid summit]

To get him

[naive talon]

okay good

[whole holly]

what point does it fail to prove

[sinful nimbus]

I struggle to see why it would appear benevolent if it was that distinct from Unn's essence

[naive talon]

anyways, time to go find my child

[zinc ice]

exsqueeze me sherma is a strong independent woman

[ripe locust]

Does anyone know whose dialoque is that? "A traveler, I see? You've come a long way, but the Citadel awaits. Many pilgrims stop here to rest and ready themselves for the final ascent. This old shack may not look like much, but within its walls, you'll find respite and, more importantly, tools for your journey. Faith alone won't open every gate, after all. The hunt is on, little one. The peak of Pharloom calls to those brave enough to answer. Now, shall we trade? My wares are... unorthodox, but each is forged with a specific purpose in mind." Please help

[naive talon]

Sherma is a guy actually

[edgy river]

Anyway yeah it makes sense that the "partly" bug thing is because of the PK, for some reason i thought wyrms counted as bugs as well

[zinc ice]

well hes a strong independent boy ig

[sinful nimbus]

SHErma

If sherma was a guy it'd be herma

[zinc ice]

💯

[limpid summit]

Uhhh

It might be the bellhart vender?

[whole holly]

same reason why Moss Prophet and some Mossy Vagabonds is preaching Radiance light is light, but only unn's light sustains them, Moss Prophet didn't listen to warning clearly or didn't apply warning about WL to Radiance

[lean temple]

That's likely just her corpse. You should see the freezing to death animation

[zinc ice]

or the guy that builds the bulletin board

[craggy smelt]

where are you finding it? people have been digging through game files, and there's some unused text in there

[zinc ice]

bro has hidden lore

jk

[edgy river]

I hope they bring more attention to this in the future tbh, seems like a nice theming for DLC. Really exploring what lifeblood is and how is it connected (if at all) with the way the radiance infection worked

[sinful nimbus]

I can't find it in the text dump

[runic wraith]

maybe it was like a stand in for broken or faulty cogs and would sort of take their place

[zinc ice]

coded by same person

[surreal bolt]

Uhh are Eva and first sinner sisters

[whole holly]

i hope my reasoning is clear enough

[zinc ice]

maybe lol

[somber storm]

so as i understand the weavers devised the whole music centered culture for the sole purpose of lulling GMS to sleep?

[craggy smelt]

probably similar principles - a dream becoming something real
Hornet comments on apparent similarities also

[sinful nimbus]

Eva is a creation of the weavers while First Sinner is just a weaver

So they arent really related biologically

[surreal bolt]

Thought first sinner escaped from that empty cryopod

[zinc ice]

bro there is not that much logic to HK levels like why the path of pain have 15k moving saw blades

[sinful nimbus]

what where

[zinc ice]

who designs their palace like this

[craggy smelt]

I wonder if Eva is derived from Weave
No Adam, only Weave

[runic wraith]

pale king just likes his saw blades are you gonna make fun of him for that

[surreal bolt]

There's an empty one in weavenest

Looks like Eva's

[zinc ice]

true 😂 prolly why all his soldiers died

those 2 guys were sitting in the one room without sawblades 🤔 wonder why

whats the deal w ||act 3 ending grandmother silk||

||she tryna stop u or help u leave is the question||

||kinda unclear but kinda seems like they might be helping u||

[spiral swift]

Im pretty sure she's just fueling hornet with silk so she can save lace

[edgy river]

Shit answer but the red dream section inclined me to believe it was part of hornets training?

It shows she clearly knows and spended time in there and you specifically see wingsmolds, and in the order of events it happens after Hive so it seems possible.

[ripe locust]

I dont understand what you mean, but i remember some merchant saying it, it may not be 100 percent accurate and now i am curious who said that because icant remember

[edgy river]

(this channel is assumed to be full of spoilers, right? Or should i spoiler tag?)

[zinc ice]

i mean idk did she ever even meet the pale king?

i dont think theyve ever really said that

[craggy smelt]

there's no restriction on spoilers here

spoil away

[zinc ice]

i mean thats def interesting tho i didnt notice kingsmold or would have to see what part ur talking abt again

[edgy river]

She definitely gone into the white palace at least, since it's on her memory. And she doesn't have a dream nail so it need to be before he booked it for the dream realm

[ripe locust]

i might have remembered something wrong but i know for sure that the last line is correct

[edgy river]

Which means he was (probably) alive at the time. Could be she was visiting or whatever. Or she just spent time with her dad's part of the family. He is, famously, a very good dad after all

[edgy river]

But idk i think considering the wingsmolds are there, it's possible the white palace stuff was part of her training at some point

[zinc ice]

ya maybe but idk if they planned that

they might have retconned it

if they planned that thats insane

[neat sandal]

maybe the bartender at greymoor?

[zinc ice]

"The expanse of dream in past was split,
One realm now must stay apart,
Darkest reaches, beating red,
Terror of sleep. The Nightmare's Heart."

its definitely lowkey connected to the grim troupe though

[edgy river]

That probably didn't plan most of the stuff. That's the good thing about building up an universe

[edgy river]

This is where?

[zinc ice]

https://hollowknight.fandom.com/wiki/Nightmare’s_Heart

its not really a huge thing but its sus they r like exactly describing the red memory

its like the void or radiance but red

[craggy smelt]

I did think of the Heart while doing it
maybe there are fearful memories there, and it touches on the Nightmare Realm
but it might just be for a cool effect

[edgy river]

Wait maybe the reason she needed that much power, as well as the reason it's called red memory, is because it's in the nightmare realm?

[umbral sparrow]

Considering how the true ending went || what if we play as the hollow knight the next game ||

[edgy river]

Also when did hornet specifically saw the everbloom?

[ripe locust]

Does anyone know whose dialoque is that? "The hunt is on, little one. The peak of Pharloom calls to those brave enough to answer. Now, shall we trade? My wares are... unorthodox, but each is forged with a specific purpose in mind."

[edgy river]

I might have missed it or just it didn't show

[zinc ice]

idk she got it from her mom tho ig she just needed to see her mom

bc she was still alive in dream world or whatever

[craggy smelt]

the memory with White Lady suggests it was sometime during White Palace originally

[edgy river]

Oh yeah white lady

Makes sense, white lady is a pale being connected to the nature

[crisp basalt]

But also, in HK

Reminder who gives Us Everbloom

Since it's clearly the same type of flower

[edgy river]

Is there any lore reason to why the everbloom doesn't die when hornet gets hit or it's just for gameplay purpose

[zinc ice]

lmfao

[lean temple]

Ze'mer

[craggy smelt]

gameplay
though Hornet says something about it being too fragile to grow in these lands, maybe the memory version is stronger

[edgy river]

I was really expecting we would get a Delicate Flower quest at the end

[crisp basalt]

I could see it being retroactively Knights Void Nature

[edgy river]

Maybe the knight being void, when void leaks out of him it damages the everbloom

[crisp basalt]

Exactly

Same thoughts

[craggy smelt]

maybe
Ze'mer says they're fragile in general though

[crisp basalt]

Also Hornet would have the Faydown cloak

I could imagine it absorbing the impact for the flower

[zinc ice]

ya but lowkey was kinda thematic also maybe like its what will save everyone but super fragile

[edgy river]

Ze'mer like "how does this guy destroy these flowers so quickly it's not that hard..."

(This is a joke ik ze'mer says the flower is fragile)

[craggy smelt]

Hornet sez this about finding a flower growing in the waking world
"I would not seek it in these lands. I need its power full, and it is too fragile to sustain here long. I would seek it in my memory."

[crisp basalt]

But it could also just be Recollection Everbloom is more durable but probably also weaker than Real Everbloom

[pallid socket]

||is it just me or is the weaver queen ending the morally best one ? Idk if when Hornet becomes the new queen she retains her memories and personality, but it seems to be be the least damaging to the world, maybe im completely misreading the lore idk ||

[spark valve]

sister of the void is the best outcome

[ripe locust]

Does someone remember mort (the trader in pilgrims rest) saying these dialoque? "A traveler, I see? You've come a long way, but the Citadel awaits. Many pilgrims stop here to rest and ready themselves for the final ascent. This old shack may not look like much, but within its walls, you'll find respite and, more importantly, tools for your journey. Faith alone won't open every gate, after all. The hunt is on, little one. The peak of Pharloom calls to those brave enough to answer. Now, shall we trade? My wares are... unorthodox, but each is forged with a specific purpose in mind." because i remember him saying that but I cant find this text in wiki or in other gameplay video and i am super curious

[zinc ice]

i mean i think shes entombed tho

i wouldnt prefer to be entombed lol

[pallid socket]

yes but for everyone else it seems fine

[craggy smelt]

dunno about that - her taking on Silk's traits physically and in terms of the crest might also suggest a transformation mentally
she could wind up being just as bad

[spark valve]

it's bad for everyone else

[zinc ice]

ya maybe lowkey

[craggy smelt]

better to have the kingdom free, in the long run

[zinc ice]

ya

[edgy river]

I don't trust in hornet that much tbh. Maybe she's a fine queen, but considering her own dialogue about herself as a ruler when doing the true ending stuff, and the time she talks about pale beings, i doubt her a little even if she is keeping her memories

[edgy river]

Power has a way o corrupting people and she herself seems unsure on what it can do to her doing the true ending. So she wants to avoid that outcome

[zinc ice]

also it shows this that does not look that great

[craggy smelt]

she doesn't trust herself certainly, it's why she opted for the snare when she had the opportunity

[crisp basalt]

Oh anyone have the text architect says to Hornet After binding the Crest?

[whole holly]

what would be best ending in silksong?

[pallid socket]

yeah i suppose

[zinc ice]

sister of void

[crisp basalt]

They will have to deal with Lifeblood in Wormways but otherwise yeah

[zinc ice]

u save little girl obv has to be best ending

[craggy smelt]

Hornet: Master, I have communed with the shrine above. Your learnings are unique, techniques born of cogwork hearts. Their mastery will require some commitment on my part.
Architect: Bug-Red, you are the first organic shell to fuse our memories. S-s-s-such behaviour, my line would have believed improbable-impossible. Still, your broad arsenal did suggest strong affinity with the m-m-m-mechanical craft, enough to allow access to our thought-store.
Hornet: Yours is an impressive skill, Master. I am grateful for the insight.

[ripe locust]

Does someone remember mort (the trader in pilgrims rest) saying these dialoque? "Now, shall we trade? My wares are... unorthodox, but each is forged with a specific purpose in mind." because i remember him saying that but I cant find this text in wiki or in other gameplay video and i am super curious

[urban sphinx]

i think the reason lace was created really young is so she could listen and be obedient to GMS. Phantom was another attempt at this, but they were created too old and were locked away

[opal beacon]

Nightmares will haunt me

[crisp basalt]

Thanks

[craggy smelt]

they have fire, they'll be fine

[opal beacon]

Damn that dude

I hate him

Like runback to Groal

[zinc ice]

ya maybe

[craggy smelt]

Silk did want loyal children. Phantom was I believe an earlier attempt than Lace, and was rejected because she grew old and began to decay.
though I'm not sure if Phantom was rejected or more that Phantom chose to isolate

[urban sphinx]

Yeah thats what im sayin basically

[ripe locust]

Does someone know which trader sells unorthodox wares?

[teal shell]

probably should ask ss help tbf

i do not know though

[sharp hawk]

Still a bit confused about the weavers, like what is their deal? I know that GMS wanted to capture them and bring them back to pharloom and for some reason they fled pharloom as well? But like the old theories of them being used as a way to perpetuate silk production in pharloom are basically dead so I'm really confused about them and their connection to GMS atm

[neat sandal]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fXWZMaeHiBTY1D6P2cuO929M0iXIYTXdeMifmLQ71sA/edit?usp=sharing

[craggy smelt]

GSM created them, they turned on her and imprisoned her, when they realized she wasn't going to stay trapped they ran
she subverted the Citadel and sent them to hunt the Weavers, killing or enslaving them for her purposes

[crisp basalt]

The Reason They Betrayed her seems twofold: They Realized she didn't care about them as much as they thought, They wanted to be free from her constant influence

[sharp hawk]

Oh I see

What reason would they have to turn against GMS tho is my question? Was it just hubris or smth else

[sharp hawk]

Ah

[crisp basalt]

Or at least that's what's implied

We only have account of this on Weaver side

[sharp hawk]

First one doesn't seem in character for GMS tho considering she gave up her life for lace in true ending - I can see second one tho

[crisp basalt]

Yeah we don't exactly know why Weaver Fell out of Favor with GMS

[craggy smelt]

First Sinner claims she lied to them about being her 'divine daughters', and there are references to the Weavers wanting to be free from her

we're light on specifics

[somber storm]

does nothing happen if you beat lost lace while infected with the root baby?

[crisp basalt]

Root baby won't let you enter the void iirc

[craggy smelt]

you can't fight her at all with it

[jolly bronze]

wait rly?

[lean temple]

What does it say?

[somber storm]

wait... baby groot..

just a dumb thought

[craggy smelt]

Hornet says it has an aversion to the Void even with the Everbloom and she'll have to remove it to dive

[true pawn]

Just reached act 3 this game is peak

Possibly better than hollow knight atleast in a few areas

[sharp hawk]

That's really interesting actually. The root in general is very interesting to me (like the cursed ending is just??? 0_0 scary)

[true pawn]

Cursed ending is probably another god

[modern bay]

Why does The Knight save Hornet? I've been thinking about it a bit and I don't see any practical reason for it to

[uncut holly]

Yknow ive had the chance to walk through the game with new context. The Weavrs crimes easily trump the Pale Kings

[lean temple]

Wait so, could White Lady have been born from a Root who parasitized a Pale being?

[jolly bronze]

Well I mean she did kinda help him kill a god in the true ending of HK

[lean temple]

It cares for her

[uncut holly]

Underworks alone would be really bad, but I think collectively. It might be worse than what the Pale King did

[craggy smelt]

they care about Hornet

[blissful harbor]

that’s their sister
they care for her enough to protect her

[somber storm]

what's the witch lore anyway, is she white lady's freaky cousin

[uncut holly]

I mean Underworks, Greymoor, Sinners Road, Deep Docks. All the civilizations the Weavers killed

[blissful harbor]

winged nosk in the first game confirmed TK’s care for hornet

[lean temple]

Pharloom in general is hellish compared to Hallownest. PK is far better than either Weavers or the Choir

[next sable]

Nobody knows. In terms of lore, there is no lore

[uncut holly]

The gaslighting of Pilgrims, and not valueing their lives

[modern bay]

Wasn't The Knight's whole thing about not having emotions or thoughts or anything, their only purpose to save Hallownest to seal the infection?

[sharp hawk]

Did the weavers build the citadel? Or was it GMS I assumed it was GMS

[craggy smelt]

no idea if Greyroot has any connection to the White Lady's race of 'Roots'

[uncut holly]

Yeah they built it

The Weavers used to be GMS's "children"

[next sable]

The Knight’s whole thing was the complete opposite, actually

[modern bay]

Or was this only assumed or is The Knight different in some way?

[lean temple]

Possibly yeah another Root, maybe a related species or even same species but not a Higher or a Pale being

[craggy smelt]

that is a literal take on the idea of what a 'pure vessel' is meant to be, but the Knight very plainly does have thoughts and emotions
I think the literal take is wrong, personally

[uncut holly]

Weavers used to be the highest ranking members of the Citadel

[jolly bronze]

Maybe? I don't necessarily know if the White Lady was born of a parasite on a pale being - but seeing as how White Lady does appear to be root and that seems to be super rare - I think there definitely has to be some sort of connection between Cursed Root and the White Lady

[uncut holly]

Before the Schism happened

[next sable]

The point of TK is that no being can truly be hollow. Hence why the default ending is considered one of the bad ones

[lean temple]

I mean, they look like her a lot. And they're a root. Not Pale or a higher being but definitely part of the larger Roots family

[crisp basalt]

One of big points is vessels aren't perfect, altho knight was emptier due to memory wipe from leaving Hallownest, but as you Travel and eventually gain Void Heart, knight gains real emotions

[sharp hawk]

Okay so yeah totally this game just makes pale king look like a saint comparatively. Like if bro wasn't fighting a dream god infection where there were very few good solutions his kingdom would've been prosperous and he would've been a good ruler

[uncut holly]

Greyroot is the same type of creature as White Lady, if they are a Higher Being is heavily contested but they are powerful enough to absorb GMS when no other method except for Binding works to kill them

[lean temple]

It WAS prosperous. He WAS a good ruler.

[modern bay]

I see, that's interesting. The whole time I thought that vessels were all empty with the purpose of being empty, not emotional with the purpose of being empty. Is there any specific dialogue I can read to get a fuller understanding?

[uncut holly]

The Pale King tried to be a good leader, he didnt try to create problems for everyone or himself

[next sable]

I honestly don’t think anyone thought PK was a bad ruler aside from the genocide of a couple hundred children for the “greater good”

[craggy smelt]

technically, it's the weird little ashen bud that does all that, Greyroot seems to die implanting it in Hornet
(though maybe Greyroot becomes one with the bud, hence the Crest of the Witch...? I don't know)

[uncut holly]

He only really came into conflict when people got in the way of his goal, which was build a kingdom and be worshiped

[sharp hawk]

I've always been sympathetic towards PK but after seeing how the citadel literally destroyed tons of surrounding ecosystems and their peoples + the whole gaslighting pilgrims thing + the entirety of underworks as a concept + white ward just being a cherry on top of that.... Its crazy how much better Hallownest was

[uncut holly]

Greyroot doesnt die they mention Rebirth meaning they are in Hornet now

[lean temple]

The bud is also a Greyroot. They talk about "rebirth" so maybe this is how they get rebirthed

[crisp basalt]

I mean yes it was the point of Vessels, just that it never Worked, Vessels could still Gain emotions and attachments, that's what happened to PV/HK

[uncut holly]

Rebirth means it would still be them afterward

[lean temple]

And you can bind their Crest afterwards

[modern bay]

I see. Is that why the vessel gets infected, or is it unrelated?

[next sable]

Very related

[jolly bronze]

It could be entirely possibly that Greyroot is in a similar way to the Void? Worshipped by few - not an actual higher being but some sort of powerful primal force capable of killing higher beings?

[crisp basalt]

Yes, gaining Emotions and attachment is what allows Radiance to Infect them

[modern bay]

So that's what the whole quote is about, THAT makes sense; "No mind to think, no will to break"

[lean temple]

Well it could over power Hornet which is impressive. She says I think that a normal bug wouldn't even survive

[modern bay]

I was under the pretense the quote was a description of The Knight

[craggy smelt]

That was Pale King's assessment of his chosen vessel that became the Hollow Knight - it probably isn't meant to be taken literally, as the whole point of a vessel was to trap the Radiance in its mind
he wouldn't pursue one that was literally mindless
White Lady later describes THK as 'tarnished by an idea instilled', something they wrongly assumed couldn't happen

[crisp basalt]

And issue is, PK accident gave Pure Vessel will

[crisp basalt]

It's description of what he needed them to be

Reason Knight is purer than rest

[modern bay]

Okay that makes 112x more sense

[crisp basalt]

Is Leaving Hallownest wipes memories

[next sable]

Depends on the bug

If they were given sapience by PK, yes. Otherwise, no

[kind steeple]

Sherma is a grown man or a little boy?

[craggy smelt]

that's not how it works
leaving Hallownest makes you lose your augmented mind, if you got one through the Pale King's beacon
TK suppressed their memory through trauma or lost it through time, they never needed Hallownest to have higher intelligence

[somber storm]

middle aged woman

[uncut holly]

Making a complete timeline atleast what has been gathered

[crisp basalt]

Wait I just Realized, Silksong explained why knight would ever Seek to Complete the God seeker ending

[kind steeple]

Then why his pronouns are he/him

[crisp basalt]

Hornet says that Pale Kings legacy Naturally pushed to Rule

[uncut holly]

The most accepted currently theory on the timeline is very rudimentary but it goes like this. Its also very over simplified.

. There are many civilizations living in Pharloom, The Ants, Crabs, Green Dancers, Flies, Craws, Swamp People, and Stick Bugs.
v
. Grand Mother Silk arrives at Pharloom and ascends the Pharlid spiders at its entrance at the Blasted Steps, or elsewhere. These where the first Weavers. GMS told them they where her daughters and that they where divinely created, exactly what they where told to do is unknown. At some point in the timeline Grand Mother Silk makes Phantom, which is a failed attempt at making a child for herself, she was seemingly then abandonded by her.
v
. Weavers make the skeleton that is the City, eventually they figure out the true way they where created and from what is unknown right now had a falling out with Grand Mother Silk.
v
. The Weavers make the Citadel to contain Grand Mother Silk, using the song made by the Citadel of Song as one giant spell to keep Grand Mother Silk asleep.
v
. Somehow for some reason Pilgrims start going to the City and the Weavers trick them using faith. Either before this or when the Weavers are in power of the Citadel they get very aggressive towards every other civilization.
v
. The Weavers seemingly mind control the people of the Nameless Town and probably started mind controlling people to create the generations of Deep Docks, Greymoor, and Sinners Road workers.
v
. A schism happens and the Citadel breaks away from the Weavers.
v
. At some point the events of White Ward happen where people use silk to heal themselves GMS uses this to stop the song and become free.

Game starts from there I believe

[silk dirge]

i wonder if gms was also a wyrm but i doubt it

[uncut holly]

This has alot of plot holes

Its currently a mystery alot of important things, like The Weavers motivations for leaving GMS, or GMS motivations

[silk dirge]

i think those will get filled up quickly since silksong lore is a lot more accessible

[uncut holly]

Its not that they dont exist we just havent figured them out but its probably due to Lace. It seems that GMS motivation is to have a child, and most things probably are all a cause of them trying to maintain Lace.

[elfin niche]

Was Herrah's ancestry retconned? In Hollow Knight, she was called a common beast and it was stated that only her sire was of noble blood, but in Silksong Hornet is described as half-Weaver implying Herrah actually was a Weaver.

[craggy smelt]

pretty close, silk-beings like Phantom would have been created after the Weavers abandoned Pharloom. The memory of Lace says:

...Better a child spun frail... than none...
...Better a child spun pure... than them...

[uncut holly]

Herrah is Weaver now

[elfin niche]

In HK I always assumed that Herrah was an "ordinary" spider and her mate was a Weaver; SS makes it seem like the other way round.

[craggy smelt]

the 'common beast' thing was only ever the mushroom's opinion (shows what they know - they're not Mister Mushroom)

[whole smelt]

Just got the|| act 3 true ending ||10/10 holy shit

[elfin niche]

While this is a reasonable attempt to reconcile in the lore, in truth it just feels like Team Cherry changed their mind tbh.

[craggy smelt]

(I mean, yeah...)

[elfin niche]

Herrah's design in HK was never visually that of a Weaver etc.

[uncut holly]

I mean i dont think its really that bad, it seems that only Weavers can actually spin silk, theres other spiders but they dont do silk

Only Weavers can make silk other spiders are silkless

[somber storm]

weavers are created out of common bugs though

[uncut holly]

Weavers are immortal from their transformation though

Thats why the First Sinner is alive

[foggy fractal]

hey chat what do we think of the forebrothers, sigma and grok

[silk dirge]

i wonder if herrah was created out of something other than a pharlid

[somber storm]

first sinner isn't alive

[uncut holly]

The Forebrothers punished the people in Deep Docks who didnt do their job

First Sinner is alive, they just test you

The mind reading dialogue on all these bosses hasnt been explored yet so it will probably clear up alot

[modern bay]

I think it's less reconciliation and more of an expansion on a concept. I don't think "common beast" fully painted a picture of who Herrah actually was, we never really knew much about her in the first place, right?

[elfin niche]

I just don't feel a Weaver is a common beast.

Like those two simply don't sit together.

[uncut holly]

Yeah they definitely arent

[elfin niche]

Like if Herrah was "common", what on earth was her partner lol

[modern bay]

Plus, that was in direct comparison with the Pale King as royalty, and Herrah as an outsider

[muted lantern]

Is grindle a backer character?

[somber storm]

Wyrm

[craggy smelt]

maybe, but how would the shrumal in Hallownest know that
it's more likely that since the Weavers were refugees to Deepnest, they were regarded as more low-caste than the established Beast kingdom there

[uncut holly]

Weavers in this Kingdom where deified and prayed to at memorials to stave off things like the Stick Bugs

[somber storm]

or you mean the other partner?

[silk dirge]

i mean team cherry probably wasnt thinking too much about weaver lore when creating hk and they needed to make changes for silksong

[somber storm]

if she even had one

[silk dirge]

no

[elfin niche]

The other partner.

[elfin niche]

She did.

[uncut holly]

Pretty sure GMS is just a single mother

[vital yacht]

If you needolin the first weaver after beating her but before you bind her, she states she kept alive through pure spite.

[silk dirge]

i dont believe silksong was ever planned to have backer characters other than sharpe who idk what happened to him

probably dlc

[elfin niche]

He'll be in Hollowknight: Rise of Zote

[timber pond]

The Steel City

[silk dirge]

i thought green prince was a backer character when i first met him

[whole holly]

Swamp People? are they not bugs?

[uncut holly]

Their bugs

They just live in swamp

[misty umbra]

Isn't Seth a backer char?

[craggy smelt]

Seth was more of a 'make a wish' thing

[prisma quail]

Finished the true ending and still VERY confused

[silk dirge]

no he was make a wish foundation

[misty umbra]

ah okay

[uncut holly]

To understand Act 3 ending you must know what Void is

[prisma quail]

Is there another one? I think I saw a "to be continued" somewhere here

[prisma quail]

I know about the void

[silk dirge]

thats mr mushroom its basically just for team cherrys next game

[craggy smelt]

that message shows up if you find Mister Mushroom

[misty umbra]

It's the Mr. mushroom thing

[jolly bronze]

I thought First Sinner was a memory? When you die in her boss fight you never have to do a run back - you just appear right outside and can go back in

[craggy smelt]

speaking of Steel Town

Steel Seer Zi has a weird line if you reject her quest in Steelsoul mode:

"Pale It... You would reject the role? Are you not tamed, bound, by Masters?... You would know... obedience is essential.
Recall, the fate of those who defy... Even you higher... Especially you higher...
**...Compression... **We have suffered it. We would never wish it upon another."

Dunno what that means... I really hope we get a steel DLC with lots of lore about them

[timber pond]

Mr mushroom is indeed a quest you can get and hornet actually talks to him , revealing what his purpose is and implying more content or another game

[silk dirge]

who?

[uncut holly]

So the hermits where Snail Shamans they opened up a portal to the void and pushed Grand Mother Silk through it. Void eats soul although it isnt intelligent, it is too fragmented to plan, it just went up the lines that GMS had on everyone and almost ended the world

[prisma quail]

Oh that yeah

[craggy smelt]

steelsoul mode character

[silk dirge]

oh is that the person in place of styx

[craggy smelt]

no, she shows up in Blasted Steps, in the spot where you'd normally get a Silkeater

[whole holly]

what type of bugs?

[uncut holly]

The Flower is from hollow knight, its a delicate flower that can break if you get hit but can seemingly repell Void and has great power

[timber pond]

Steel Seer Zi is another chracter like Jhinn who is a "steel heart" bug

no

[uncut holly]

I dunno probably team cherry original

[timber pond]

actually no its a whole quest

[craggy smelt]

I thought the Stilkin might be corrupted fleas, since their shell homes look a lot like the Flea Caravan wagons to me
but maybe it's just the same type of shell

[sharp hawk]

Does the "steel city" term come from anywhere in game? I've been seeing the term thrown around a lot in regards to dlc discussion

[foggy fractal]

so those who defy suffer some sort of compression from the masters
and even/especially a higher being could suffer it ? more steel masters hype

[craggy smelt]

a lore tab in the Cradle mentions a Weaver captured in the 'City of Steel'
we don't know if it has anything to do with the steel bugs
(but like...)

[foggy fractal]

another upscale to the steel masters les go

[uncut holly]

I dont think the Stilkin are fleas

[whole holly]

can we see picture of stilkin?

[foggy fractal]

exact location of it

[timber pond]

This sounds like something relating to what the white lady says about the void. These masters seem like arbiters of balance in the world that share relation to the powers that be.

[uncut holly]

He looks so happy

[craggy smelt]

hmm, something inbetween the light and the dark. Steel grey...?

[whole holly]

they look like frogs rather than fleas

[uncut holly]

That being said he also sucks the souls out of people so he can do his spells

[severe siren]

Love their designs

[craggy smelt]

groal does, certainly
but the others got those pointy beaks, those fluffy bits...

[sharp hawk]

I see thank you
Really hope we get dlc tbh, I want to see the steel assassin enemies and Sharpe in action (full coral forest area would be nice too :>)

[uncut holly]

The Stilkin at some point in the past kidnapped a Snail Shaman and tortured them for their secret

[timber pond]

Well its weird because Jhinn says Shades are "like the masters" but the masters persecute those who use void. even though thier own Sorcerers can do so?

[severe siren]

I love to think of them as fat mosquitoes

With ghillie suits

[lean temple]

God damn the Masters can harm higher beings??

[uncut holly]

I think the City of Steel was chasing that one guy because they where too lowly status to do Void stuff

[silk dirge]

ah so thats why groal can just pull out vs lmao

[uncut holly]

Personal theory is that steel bugs are void constructs

[craggy smelt]

Jinn says something like how TK is 'more complete'
the harsh sentence on their vassals might be if they violate some laws or use unsanctioned powers... the vassals are below steelhearts, so their rank in the hierarchy might be pretty low

[timber pond]

They apreantly can persecute anyone who breaks natural order i guess

[lean temple]

It's possible using Void is only allowed for select few

[silk dirge]

back to work i go my break is over(i get breaks I dont work at the underworks)

[lean temple]

So wait was Jiji the Vassal of Jinn?

[whole holly]

structurally they do resemble kingsmoulds, they are like that except steel exterior

[severe siren]

The steelfolk are the weirdest and most curious thing in all of the HK lore and none can convince me otherwise

[craggy smelt]

I think so

[lean temple]

And the fact that TC keep adding more mysteries to them

[severe siren]

That would make the most sense yeah

[craggy smelt]

I agree, they're really interesting, so choked the steel assassins got cut/pushed back

[timber pond]

This implies that the masters are trying to "become Shades". the arcane egg in this game confirms that shades are an ancient civilization idea.

[severe siren]

They had to have been pushed back, among the steel assassins Sharpe is also a backer character and those cannot be cut whatsoever

[whole holly]

well, not much is known about them so that might be part of reason

[obsidian quail]

who do u guys think the 3rd playable character was going to be

[severe siren]

Plus Sharpe had a major role and even existed before the original Hollow Knight

[timber pond]

Probably for DLC (that will turn into another game😂 😭 )

[craggy smelt]

I don't know about that, but maybe. Jinn also reacts to the King's Brand, mentioning that her masters 'don't seek order' and have 'minds... others...'
so they might reject whatever kind of order/power the Pale Beings represent and prefer something more chaotic... the Void is pretty chaotic in its normal state
AC also wanted the Void to remove their fears and desires, maybe that's what it means to have 'minds other'

[sharp hawk]

Wait really? I only know of him from the early silksong stuff

[prisma quail]

Which ending is this, I didn't see it

[severe siren]

He was shown off in a kickstarter blog for the Hornet DLC, a week or two before the original HK release

[tawdry flare]

unused/cut

[sharp hawk]

Oh I see

[severe siren]

Unused/cut

[obsidian quail]

the case that the Ancient Civilization were like the Vessels get stronger

[lean temple]

The Masters could be some form of Ancients

[obsidian quail]

the agenda grows

[whole holly]

well, steel bugs seem to want controlled chaos

[foggy fractal]

wait I should lowkey make a Sharpe fake screenshot

[sharp hawk]

Pretty sure it was cut. Sucks because I prefer it over the ending that replaced it personally

[somber storm]

is it unused? i thought it happens when you bind instead of using the snare

[foggy fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/soccer-football-anime-blue-lock-isagi-yoichi-gif-27440248

[elfin niche]

Team Cherry often end up using cut content eventually.

[severe siren]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/586931790208434203/1232486756742598757/Sharpe_Attack.gif

[elfin niche]

The Forest of Bones that was cut from Hk clearly became the Marrow in SS.

[tawdry flare]

crazy void tendril attack he's got there

[foggy fractal]

I think someone said that they tried it and got the normal ending instead but I haven't seen footage

[craggy smelt]

I want to test this, setting up the snare but binding anyway

[prisma quail]

Yeah it's better

[karmic dove]

so pantheon ending is canon for ss?

[obsidian quail]

perhaps the ancient civilization did rituals and voided themselves out like the vessels and were cleansed, and thus had shades

[tawdry flare]

DNM and ETV are

[prisma quail]

What pantheon

[foggy fractal]

either dnm or etv

[craggy smelt]

maybe. maybe that's what the void tendril/snake things are

[severe siren]

DNM/ETV 🐌

[karmic dove]

when you defeat absolue radiance

[prisma quail]

Oh dnm is more likely

[severe siren]

I think dnm makes the most sense though

[tawdry flare]

it's both, neither of them are more likely

[prisma quail]

What I noticed is they put clifferhangers on all the endings, like something happens at the cursed ending

[severe siren]

Personally

[obsidian quail]

the cycle continues

[spark valve]

dnm is just the better ending

[timber pond]

Well from what i gather from the 2 tablets by the ancients in the void and the arcane egg. The idea for shades and how the void was actually worshiped and used in the past. The idea of a Shade might be that "perfect existince" PK , the masters and AC sought, but could never Achieve for themselves because the idea might be misunderstood. and that's why AC fell into ruin.

[severe siren]

Godseekers on their way to pharloom

[prisma quail]

It's such a shame since they don't explain on it or even planned anything for it?

[spark valve]

may they be eaten by worms

[obsidian quail]

we know the AC fell into ruin because of something not related to Void

[timber pond]

yeah but where is the big hollow knight shade then lmao

[spark valve]

who cares

[lean temple]

Do you think the Masters have still figured this out?

[tawdry flare]

the Steel bugs should hunt down and KILL all the Godseekers imo

[obsidian quail]

frolicking somewhere else

[crisp basalt]

My guess its Creation of Phantom

[craggy smelt]

it's very tantalizing - I think this nature of the Void as absence was what PK was going for with his vessels
maybe the AC embraced the Void and just never came back out of it

[sharp hawk]

100% agree so I'm choosing to accept it as canon still 🙏🙏

[timber pond]

if jhinn does indeed say they are "not complete" then no and they are trying to replicate

[severe siren]

Scary to think about

[obsidian quail]

we know they didn’t kill themselves from void most likely

just based off what the mask maker says

[craggy smelt]

we don't know why they vanished

[obsidian quail]

we know it most likely wasn’t related to void

the mask maker hints at their ruin and it wasn’t related to void

[craggy smelt]

Mask Maker just suggests they made an attempt at widespread rule that failed, they say nothing about why it failed

[obsidian quail]

that being said mass void sacrifice is metal as fuck but i doubt it

[severe siren]

Mask Maker

[craggy smelt]

that reminds me, it was too bad there wasn't a Soul Totem somewhere in the Abyss, that would've been a neat touch

[spark valve]

mask maker doesn't even talk about the ancient civ

[foggy fractal]

guys would you rather

1. not be able to dream any more
2. take a deep dive in a pool of void

[severe siren]

Mask Maker is impossible to cite

[timber pond]

If the ruling caste all wanted to become shades, i could see why it failed lol. maybe the thrashing tentacles are thier remaining "wills"

[blissful harbor]

isn’t there a tablet somewhere in SS’s abyss talking about void cleansing them and erasing their desire and fear and shit
they all jumped into the lake

[whole holly]

there was totem somewhere that was corrupted by void and gave sharp shadow charm

[severe siren]

Take my chances with the void

[craggy smelt]

that's in the first game, I meant in Pharloom's Abyss
arcane egg, yey, no soul totem, boo

[quartz plinth]

Is silksong a good game?

[severe siren]

Groal ate the soul totems afaik imo tbh ngl iirc

[whole holly]

well, Soul Totem has use Gameplay wise in HK but not in silksong so that's why

[obsidian quail]

he does

[novel eagle]

english ???

[timber pond]

you ask this in a channel where pepole are deeply disscussing the lore lmao your answer will be yes (yes) 😂

[quartz plinth]

Im starting to believe that due to the reactions others have had towards some zones, some enemies, the constant talking about the runbacks and stuff, that silksong might not have been good enough for people

[craggy smelt]

sure, but lorewise the AC made them - just would've been a neat touch to the lore

[spark valve]

he's talking about hallownest it's why he says it in response to king's brand

[novel eagle]

nah the thing about this game the more hate you see = the more loved it is

[spark valve]

hallownest is a fallen ancient kingdom it's what he's talking about

[obsidian quail]

he specifically says ancient caste reflects hallownest attempts

[quartz plinth]

Im starting to question whenever the game is actually good or if it was just due to the hype and we are actually gassing up a bad game

[novel eagle]

more people get to play ti for longer periods.

[elfin niche]

It's comfortably more difficult than HK and difficulty is obviously alienating sometimes.

[craggy smelt]

I'm reminded of the AC shrine in Hallownest where you get Abyss Shriek
"Our voices... will cry out... again..."
talk about spooky

[severe siren]

Regardless, you are allowed to enjoy trash

[spark valve]

no he says hallownest's state reflects the failures of the ancient caste (the kingdom of hallownest)

[neat sandal]

no. not yet. until I can gasp the lore

[quartz plinth]

The knee jerk reaction alot of people have had, calling team cherry selfish for delaying other games, the fact people don't shut up about vilewater and boss runbacks

[spark valve]

It is the ancient caste that made attempt at such vast rule. Hallownest's ruin reflects well those fared attempts.
"They tried, and you can see how it went"

[timber pond]

it became popular based on the back of an organic popularity from the first game so yeah, its probably partly inorganic hype.

[obsidian quail]

right i got the wording wrong

[quartz plinth]

Is this really a good game or did team cherry just really alter the industry for nothing

[next sable]

Just remember when DS1 (Dark Souls) came out, people riffed on it for its difficulty too

[quartz plinth]

Im very worried that im liking something i shoudn't be liking

[obsidian quail]

but hallownest is never referred to as ancient caste

ancient caste matches the ancient civilization and the totems around hallownest

[severe siren]

The former is from a very small very vocal minority who arent even game devs

[spark valve]

nor is ancient civ and hallownes is called ancient plenty

[timber pond]

go play a castlevania game, silksong is more simlar to that this time around, except with platforming

[neat sandal]

never understand why weaver rebel and flee

[spark valve]

ancient civ is a fan name it's not explicitly named

[quartz plinth]

No one cares about castelvania anymore

[misty umbra]

it is a good game... people don't say Eldenring or the likes are bad games only cause it's hard after all...

[quartz plinth]

People will call you a white loser for liking them or something stupid like that, thats why im worried

[timber pond]

because of the nature of Silk itself. Its controling.

[misty umbra]

and i think silksong is way more fair than most peeps think.

[next sable]

There’s really no such thing as “shouldn’t like at all” unless it’s morally reprehensible, which Silksong is not

[timber pond]

im just saying thats what its similar too with subtools and such

[next sable]

So like, enjoy the life you’re living and just take what you can get

[lean temple]

The ruins of the Ancients specifically can be found everywhere, including their soul totems.

[quartz plinth]

Thats what worries me, if silksong is actually moraly reprehensible

[severe siren]

Why concern yourself with the opinions of others over liking a video game that is already well received

[potent patio]

Why did Hornet become the monarch? Didn’t she want to stop the haunting?

[obsidian quail]

when is hallownest called ancient

[severe siren]

There is nothing morally wrong 😭

[next sable]

…I think you need to open a dictionary once in a while and get out of the doomer mindset lol

[obsidian quail]

this is interesting i’ve only heard people think of ancient caste as the ancient civilization

[tawdry flare]

This is a very silly statement when talking about Silksong

[obsidian quail]

generally ancient predates the current

[prisma quail]

Why do you dislike it? Personally I’m disappointed by the lore

[spark valve]

hallownest isn't current it fell forever ago

[obsidian quail]

yeah but it’s the current kingdom even though it’s dead

it’s still Hallownest

[timber pond]

It could be a mix of alot of modern bugs. Like shamans, the masters ect.

[craggy smelt]

in light of what Pharloom's mask maker said, 'ancient caste' might also refer to Pale Beings in general
I think Pharloom's MM calls them the 'higher caste'
Hallownest MM could just be talking about how generally pale being kingdoms don't work out
so its hard luck that TK has taken on the mantle of a king

[lean temple]

We don't know how long that forever was, and if anything the Ancient Civ is much older anyway

[obsidian quail]

u can say Hallownest is old but it’s the current kingdom and ancient is generally pre current era

[spark valve]

ac being older doesn't change that both hallownest and that are ancient, and the CONTEXT OF THE MASK MAKER DIALOGUE is about the king's brand where he's talking about hallownest

[foggy fractal]

team cherry being "selfish" for delaying other games is bs btw
either way silksong was gonna come out eventually, plus it wasn't tc who delayed the other games, that choice was solely on the creators of the other games

[lean temple]

Hornet says "higher caste" when she speculates that there's a higher being in control of pharloom

[spark valve]

current era is no large kingdom

[craggy smelt]

yeah, MM uses the same term

[quartz plinth]

I am biased because i have been waiting for this game for a long time, but even then my opinion isn't really valid because i didn't know about silksong until like 2020, after i already had finished HK so i didn't wait "the full time" to have a valid opinion about silksong and even though i haven't gotten the true ending yet, im very scared that people will turn on silksong and they will start blaming us, calling us the most toxic fanbase ever and silksong "The worst game you never played" with several hour long essays and we'll become the butt of the joke for twitter users like how has happened with alot of things that were good on release but now are just considered "slop trash"

[spark valve]

who cares

[obsidian quail]

ur making points tammo

[tawdry flare]

who cares if that;s wh

[obsidian quail]

ur making points

[lean temple]

He talks about kingship and ruling. The Pale King definitely DID NOT try ruling the whole region

[severe siren]

Literally who gives a fuck about what the no-lifes online have to say

[spark valve]

he did

[quartz plinth]

People should because its important

[next sable]

Eh. People will hate on something simply because they want to hate on something. Just, whatever lmao

[quartz plinth]

We should because we are the ones causing this, we might be guilty of delays and incresing the standars of games and causing a domino effect that could end up leading to bad things

[lean temple]

The whole region means deepnest and hive and kingdom's edge and the Abyss and everything else, which he DID NOT do.

[spark valve]

I see another takes mantle of king? Then grim responsibility that shall bestow.
(that mantle being the mark of the king of hallownest)
No bug has ever laid claim to this whole. Even the beasts knew their limits and bound their realm at Nest's edge.
comparing hallownest to deepnest, which bounded their realm
It is the ancient caste that made attempt at such vast rule. Hallownest's ruin reflects well those fared attempts.
saying that it's a doomed project and that the failures to do it are reflected in the state of the kingdom, which... is true of hallownest

[quartz plinth]

Im not even sure if i should keep playing the game to the end because i keep hearing about the critisisms in my mind and it won't stop bothering me

[spark valve]

attempt
attempt

[lean temple]

He didn't attempt it?? He left everyone alone

[spark valve]

he did

[tawdry flare]

genuinely what are you talking about gang 💔

[lean temple]

How

[foggy fractal]

you shouldn't worry about such a thing, the general consensus on TC and Silksong isn't like that
theres probably some goof balls out there who will whine but most are chill

[potent patio]

If I fought grandmother silk when do I fight grandpa song?

[spark valve]

deepnest trams??
treaties??

[neat sandal]

so weaver love freedom so much
even they are ruling class they still consider it is the burden or something

[craggy smelt]

that's a silly attitude, everyone has different tastes, some people are going to hate things you like, just like you'll hate things others like
if you're enjoying it for what it is, play it for those reasons, don't worry about what others think
if there's some parts of it you dislike, just accept that its not perfect

[quartz plinth]

Its hard to just care for what i like when i could face harassment and death treaths over it

[spark valve]

you're also just ignoring all the context for the dialogue where he's explicitly talking about pk

[limpid summit]

Hallownest’s ruin reflects the fared attempts of other groups (such as AC) to rule the land 🗣️

[vivid kernel]

Back at the beginning of the game, did Hornet break herself out, or did someone/something else break her out?

[next sable]

Uh, say what now

[foggy fractal]

again the whole TC is delaying other games is BS

[craggy smelt]

good grief, where is this happening to you? leave the platform, or block/report the people doing it

[lean temple]

"Laid claim" and "diplomatic relations" aren't the same dude. Deepnest and Hive had their own monarchies. Mantises ruled independent and Mosskin stayed under Unn.

[potent patio]

So it’s now canon that Hornet trained with the hive right?

[spark valve]

there's no reason to introduce a random entity to the discourse when there's been no indication that another has been added

[obsidian quail]

so when Mask Maker says the beasts who is he referring to

[foggy fractal]

yeah, at the very least with Vespa

[rough sandal]

Theory: after becoming one with the Silk during the ||Queen of the Weavers|| ending, Hornet commands an entire army out of Pharloom and conquers the Song dynsasty, defeats the Mongol empire early and founds the Shaw dynasty, which controls the Silk Trade for centuries to come

[spark valve]

deepnest

[obsidian quail]

isn’t nest’s edge on the other side

[quartz plinth]

Its team cherry's fault, because it was like invading other dev's Home turf and dropping a bomb between them, thats the sentiment i have been seeing

[spark valve]

the entire point of the dialogue is him contrasting deepnest and hallownest

[obsidian quail]

kingdom’s edge

[rough sandal]

Then Miguel O'Hara probably shows up and dismantles the whole thing sadly

[limpid summit]

I find it limiting to say that considering Ancient Caste is already obfuscation

[foggy fractal]

and that sentiment is wrong

[spark valve]

it's not really

[limpid summit]

He’s grouping together everyone who tried to conquer the land

Deepnest, Hallownest, AC

[foggy fractal]

what was TC supposed to do otherwise anyway ? just not release the game ?

[spark valve]

but he's not

[severe siren]

So are they not allowed to release the game or?

[limpid summit]

That makes perfect sense

[quartz plinth]

The problem is that even if its wrong, if its repeated long enough it will become true and it might already be true due to how much i have seen it

[potent patio]

Why did Hornet grow more arms after grandmother silk?

[next sable]

My guy, get off the internet and touch grass. It’s clearly not mentally healthy for you to be on social media.

(But also, every dev has to push out a release date at some point. It’s just a fact of the industry)

[spark valve]

he's differentiating between deepnest and hallownest

[vivid kernel]

.

[limpid summit]

That’s your interpretation

[craggy smelt]

I literally have to do this now, got some yard work to do

[spark valve]

the entire point is that the 'grim responsibility' bestowed by taking PK's mantle is what caused hallownest's ruin

[somber storm]

gms also has 6 arms when she grabs you, ig hornet just becomes gms 2

[foggy fractal]

then you've been hearing from the loud minority
trust me when I say that we're usually chill 🙏

[spark valve]

it is responsibility for PK's efforts to lay claim to the whole which is reflected in the ruin of the kingdom, hornet basically says the same shit

[obsidian quail]

it’s the fact that he specifically says “this kingdom” in the next dialogue and the only civilization we know of that was super widespread was the Ancient Civilization

[spark valve]

hallownest was immensely widespread

[obsidian quail]

but on the other hand why would he even reference hallownest’s ruin then

like that has anything to do with them

[vivid kernel]

Can someone please just answer my question

[limpid summit]

Yes, and Mask Maker frames that ruin in the context of the Deepnest bugs who knew their limits and the AC who seems to have succeeded in spreading far

[severe siren]

I want to know more about the world beyond

[limpid summit]

Lace’s butterfly broke her seal

[potent patio]

Is phantom dead? Do we get to learn more about them?

[vivid kernel]

Thanks

[quartz plinth]

But how can i know thats true

[next sable]

Lace freed her so that she could kill Hornet herself

[severe siren]

The surface and also the weavenest in far fields were great for that

[spark valve]

why would he, in the context of talking about how taking pk's crown is bestowing a grim responsibility, completely pivot to talk about something with zero salience or relevance instead of just being talking about the relevant kingdom in a relevant sense in a way that maintains the comparison he's drawing

[prisma quail]

It’s still pretty much a wasteland

[obsidian quail]

it was one of those butterflies, could be Lace or just a random occurrence

[limpid summit]

You’re asking why the confusing lore dump NPC gives us more lore

[quartz plinth]

How do i know silksong is a good game if im not even sure if it was morally good to even like the game.to begin with, what if its messages are bad or what if the game is bad and i just have fooled myself because i don't know what good things actually look and play like

[spark valve]

it's not confusing you're inserting random shit to make it confusing

[spark valve]

the dialogue is super straightforward

[limpid summit]

Phantom is dead yes they were a silk construct similar to Lace

[severe siren]

Correct but also i want to know the vastness of the lands, as in the frequency of kingdoms across the universe, or how far apart they are, or if there are even many at all

[trail wasp]

So hold on, since Hornet is part Weaver and part Wyrm, that means Herrah was a weaver, which looking back makes sense, but why didn't people ever think she was a Weaver in the first place?

[keen compass]

I just finished the game and wanted to talk about its lore!

Can I talk spoilers here?

[limpid summit]

Doesn’t look like one and is contextualized: as a Deepnest native in HK

[tawdry flare]

Finished How exactly

[potent patio]

TE

[next sable]

I think you’re actually a bit too young to be here on Discord if that’s the way you think. So please, do yourself a favor and just… enjoy yourself. You’ll figure it out eventually

[keen compass]

I beat Act 3 in its entirety

[potent patio]

?

[prisma quail]

Far apart that they knew about each other and could send an expedition

[tawdry flare]

Oh Ok good I gotta gatekeep this chat from those Act 2 players

[limpid summit]

As far as we knew the Weavers were a foreign spider tribe and not an artificial race

[foggy fractal]

well this place is the official server
and I can say for that the majority of us is pretty levelheaded

[keen compass]

And wanted to talk bout the lore implication of the confirmed Hollow Knight ending

[trail wasp]

I would say she does look like other Weavers besides the larger body, but as we've seen Weavers can change their forms. They only keep their 6-hold mask as a distinction

[prisma quail]

I wonder what’s the ratio of healthy kingdoms to ones destroyed by hauntings lol

[keen compass]

So my question is- Which HK ending happened- Because it looks like the godmasters ending is wut happened with the void god

[spark valve]

either dnm or etv

[tawdry flare]

Both DNM and ETV lead into Silksong

[trail wasp]

DNM imo

[limpid summit]

We aren’t sure, but considering Steel Soul dialogue and meta stuff it’s likely EtV

[keen compass]

I dont think its both

[misty umbra]

what is ETV again?

[tawdry flare]

why else would it flash between TK's shade form and shade lord form

[trail wasp]

Embrace the Void

[narrow rapids]

etv makes the knight into a bigger shade lord so dream no more is my pick

[trail wasp]

Agreed

[tawdry flare]

we see shade lord in the sister of the void ending

[spark valve]

it could be either

[trail wasp]

ETV leads to the knight becoming the knight no more

[potent patio]

Don’t alaborate but does that mean that not all endings are canon now (minus sealed sibling)

[limpid summit]

VGForm is DnM edge yes but people thought that VGFocus was some sort of void entity and not TK, flashing between the two was to show they are one and the same

[narrow rapids]

we see the dnm ending knight in the ending.

[limpid summit]

VGForm/VGFocus alone aren’t what point towards the endings

[keen compass]

I think its ETV not DMN

Purely because it shows the void god entity wutever

[limpid summit]

Hornet’s dialogue and Summoned Savior entry suggest that she doesn’t know about TK’s total void control

[next sable]

Uh, is there any significant difference between the two endings

[limpid summit]

Hollow Knigjt is in its shell vs out

[spark valve]

no they don't

[limpid summit]

Yes they do

[tawdry flare]

are we bronze

[somber storm]

knight could've just become a void lord off screen in dream no more

[keen compass]

The Knight in ETV specifically becomes the void entity god thingy

[limpid summit]

“No one can control the void no one can control the void”

[spark valve]

sula is such an obviously different context than the lord of shades lmao

[limpid summit]

You spend the whole last game controlling the void that’s just going to confuse players if she’s talking about something else

[spark valve]

she's also yelling at them she's not gonna caveat it with "unless you're the god of void then it's fine and you can do it"

she knows about controlling void anyways that's the entire point of her even guarding king's brand

[next sable]

Well, yes, obviously, but is there really any significance when TK already had Voidheart and it’s functionally the same thing?

[keen compass]

We know hallownest is still around in some form though, so maybe ETV is questionable tho as well

[tawdry flare]

hallownest isnt destroyed in ETV

[limpid summit]

Her opinion of PK’s void control is lackluster

That’s not evidence

[trail wasp]

The Shade Lord is willed into existance by the Godseekers, which is a big difference

[spark valve]

if you think hornet is including something like void heart in that statement why does she guard king's brand specifically FOR TK TO UNITE THE VOID

[keen compass]

Doesn't the void rise up and we get the cliffhanger ending?

[misty umbra]

Yeah im pretty sure that makes it clear that the shade lord is a real thing and that the Knight is the brain of it

[tawdry flare]

the void there is under TK's control and i fail to see why they would do anything other than just like chill. they werent murdering random people prior

[gritty ruin]

I got a question, why did hornet have a literal heart atttack at the start of the game?

[keen compass]

because its the void

[trail wasp]

Without the Godseekers, the Shade Lord remains dormant

[tawdry flare]

yeah, controlled by the knight

[gritty ruin]

Wait the void is in silksong?

[keen compass]

Well idk if its constantly controled by the knight

[spark valve]

hornet is hallucinating or having visions before she passes out and she flashes visions of the siblings, in a way more concordant with dnm, and then the vgfocus, which is more concordant with the other, then it cuts back to reality and neither is there. It's meant to be ambiguous

[foggy fractal]

idk why where there is so much discourse over which ending it is
if they wanted to confirm one they would've just showed void given form or void given focus only
the fact that they show void given form, then a flash of the siblings, then void given focus, but also not thk proves to me its supposed to be ambigious

[tawdry flare]

have you reached act 3...

[keen compass]

Someone hasnt finished act 3

[limpid summit]

Then why assert it again in her own personal notes

That’s just doubling down on something returning players know isn’t true

[gritty ruin]

I am on the bell doggy boss :3

[tawdry flare]

😭

[next crescent]

whats the lore for the 1st silk heart to be with the bell beast ? the other 2 clearly are more silk accumulated situations

[spark valve]

like I said obviously she's making an exception for the god of void, she obviously knows about unifying the void because she sets those events in motion deliberately in the first game

[trail wasp]

Also, Bell Beast babies remind me of the baby stag we never got to see

[tawdry flare]

she found it on a corpse and gave it to you maybe IDK

[trail wasp]

we get some justice at least for that

[gritty ruin]

I started today and would’ve gotten further if I didn’t get ignored in the help channel for 1 hour while I spent 2 hours searching for the map person

[obsidian quail]

on the other hand arcane eggs are said to come from ancient past

[spark valve]

...It faced the void, and ascends unscathed... Could it unite such vast darkness?..
She knows the knight has the potential to control void due to its nature

[obsidian quail]

oh we moved on

[keen compass]

Anyways to continue my point- The void isnt completely under Knight's control, this is evident by it lashing out in silksong and still needing the everbloom to dive into. Its clear that it only gains temporary unification when absolutely necessary, such as Hornet being at risk of falling to it and Knight clearly caring for its sibling

[obsidian quail]

what is the lore behind the silk hearts

[prisma quail]

You know you can just google this stuff

[foggy fractal]

if you don't wanna get spoiled you should leave
this channel is all spoilers allowed, some other channels are too

[limpid summit]

Yeah she guesses it could she doesn’t confirm it until she meets us in front of the egg and sees raw void slink off her in DnM

In EtV she might have an educated guess

[keen compass]

they're the hearts of wut i assume are weavers in a way brought together

[quartz plinth]

I just don't want to be blamed for the delay of several indie games

[keen compass]

Btw, big lore drop in silksong is the absolute confirmation of a LOT of kingdoms outside hallownest

[next sable]

You literally aren’t a game dev. You’re fine

[spark valve]

the fact that she even thinks it's possible in those cases means she's not applying that possibility when yelling at sula

[trail wasp]

kind of already knew that

with the existance of the troupe

[prisma quail]

Who is running the wiki? When will it get filled in?

[foggy fractal]

trust me when I say this
if they're blaming you stop talking to them, block them, report them whatever
they are the ones who are toxic not you

[limpid summit]

That’s an extrapolation

[quartz plinth]

But im supporting some.that did indeed to that, all of us might be to blame

[keen compass]

not to this extent tho, the implication in HK is that the world is mostly desolate and in ruin

[spark valve]

it is an entailment

[prisma quail]

Where was that.

[foggy fractal]

hey don't lump me into this I ain't do nothing !!!

[limpid summit]

If she doesn’t have confirmation that TK has united the void she wouldn’t say “no bug can unite the void except one weird creature maybe I’m not sure”

[foggy fractal]

whoever they is

[next sable]

That’s not how it works in the real world, but ok

[prisma quail]

I thought this was the implication in SS as well.

[spark valve]

Hornet explicitly knows that void can be controlled by something unifying the void
that doesn't mean she isn't going to yell at sula for summoning it recklessly

[edgy barn]

You get one from Lace and another from the whiteward boss, both of which makes sense

[keen compass]

When you ascend to the cradle, there's a room of other cages like the one Hornet was captured in. If you interact with the cages, they note weavers from a many kingdom

[edgy barn]

But You also get one from the Bell Beast

Which feels pretty random

[quartz plinth]

That is even more toxic and it just shows that i would be a coward in a bubble instead of resisting all the possible harassment

[abstract sentinel]

just play the game❤️‍🩹

[pale juniper]

I think that Grimm is from wisp thicket ngl

[spark valve]

she has confirmation and she says it anyways (though that's not even what she says lmao) because the GOD OF VOID and SOME RANDOM GUY SUMMONING IT are different scenarios, is this actually bait??

[quartz plinth]

I LIKED BILEWATER WHEN I SHOULD HAVE HATED IT

[somber storm]

i think void unification refers to the siblings only and not the void itself

[quartz plinth]

I LOVE THIS GAME WHEN I SHOULD HATE IT, thats the problem, i cannot force myself to hate this game

[limpid summit]

A creature born of a bug's desperate hope for strength. Few possess the skill to call the void, and of those that can, none possess the means to tame it.

Summoned Savior entry - her own personal observations, she doesn’t need to posture or recontextualize for Sula

She sees exactly what she describes happen in DnM to the letter lmao

[next sable]

So what. Whatever

[next sable]

Legitimately, who cares

[spark valve]

the knight is not an external being calling to it

[gritty ruin]

I like lore

[obsidian quail]

that’s not true because the lake of void isn’t the siblings

[limpid summit]

Call the void?

[gritty ruin]

No?? I can??

[prisma quail]

It says “weavers from many kingdoms”?

[cosmic kindle]

What even happens during the cutscene after we defeat GMS?

[limpid summit]

As in summon it to Rad?

Ragebait

[spark valve]

she doesn't see that either but bruh

[prisma quail]

We take over as the new monarch

[limpid summit]

She wakes up and void is just there

[spark valve]

she is NOT talking about the lord of shades in that entry

[abstract sentinel]

then why are you forcing yourself to hate the game? if you like it you like it if you don't you dont

[keen compass]

No, just read the text, can I post screenshots here? The implication by the text on the cages is that these cages all come from places OUTSIDE pharloom

[limpid summit]

Exactly because she doesn’t know for a fact that it exists

[prisma quail]

Yes please

[foggy fractal]

no you shouldn't blame yourself and call yourself toxic
you are 100% justified for blocking and moving away from people who are toxic
also I'm gonna go eat you should maybe go to #off-topic instead

[cosmic kindle]

Cause is that hornet trapped in the silk or what?

[keen compass]

one momento

[prisma quail]

Yes she takes over

[spark valve]

no because that's not what the entry is about lmao it's about sula summoning some void irresponsibly

[prisma quail]

It sucks so much that the white palace section of the red memory has no dialogue

[spark valve]

hornet knows about the possibility of the lord of shades she knows about it definitively

[prisma quail]

Like the hive or whatever

[vivid kernel]

Did a wyrm make Pharloom?

[keen compass]

also the void is clearly not permanently united, its obviously a brief moment of unification for things of importance

[cosmic kindle]

She even got more limbs!

[spark valve]

she doesn't mention it because it's not relevant

[limpid summit]

The explicit control of the void isn’t relevant to one who wishes to control it?

Yes TK isn’t a bug whatever

[spark valve]

tk is a god of void not a random fucko summoning it

[prisma quail]

Crowd chanting something like at a football match

[keen compass]

there's evidence of several dead massive beasts throughout, like farfield for example, but so far its unclear. Pharloom is very ancient tho given its had three to four whole kingdoms before the one we see in prsent day

[limpid summit]

If TC wanted to fanservice in that entry they totally would

[spark valve]

but they didn't

[prisma quail]

What they did to turn off the lighthouse

[limpid summit]

It’s of course relevant

[spark valve]

it is not

[limpid summit]

Implying a reason that Hornet refuses to mention LoS

[quartz plinth]

Because i should, silksong is just not as good as hollow knight, its not a matter of opinion or anything, the game is just inferior because people think about it that way, if i say that it is better and i have to explain why, it comes down to "Personal preference" instead of saying what the game improved over the first game, witch is bassivally Nothing, less colectable, easier bosses, worse areas, worse mechanics no simple pogoing bad enemies bad design trap benches bad bosses bad final boss lame quests bad lore, i don't know man i need to think the correct and moral option not the biased and glazing.one because i don't want to be a bad person im just so stressed about this

[limpid summit]

She doesn’t mention it at all throughout the game

[spark valve]

bruh you can't argue that hornet doesn't think unification is possible when in the first game she DELIBERATELY CAUSED IT that's directly incoherent

[vivid kernel]

I see

[prisma quail]

You can get the same pogo

[keen compass]

she thinks its possible, and it did happen TEMPORARILY

[next sable]

“Because people think about it that way”

Make your own opinions, damn it.

[keen compass]

its not a permament unification

[spark valve]

you have not been following the conversation that is not remotely relevant

[quartz plinth]

Why? If they are going to be wrong regardless then whats the point

[spark valve]

hornet knows void can be controlled, she knows that's on the table

 ...It faced the void, and ascends unscathed... Could it unite such vast darkness?..

[spark valve]

her not bringing up this bizarre edge case in a writing pertaining to sula changes nothing

[keen compass]

I think this individual needs an age check, they seem too young to be on discord

[next sable]

If you’re allowing yourself to be influenced solely by the whims of other people’s existence, that is a sad existence that imo is not worth living

[limpid summit]

You’re misconstruing me
Hornet is of course aware of the possibility of LoS, but in EtV she cannot confirm that LoS is what defeated Radiance, unlike in DnM. There is no mention of LoS in a situation where, yes, it would be relevant to mention it. Sula conversation I understand why she didn’t. Journal entry, why not?

[misty umbra]

No one is to blame lol
This is such a pointless argument... TC made a game, they released the game, it's popular... end of story... If you want to think of someone poorly just because they finished a passion project and it turned out really really well and has success, then i don't know what kind of trashy people influence you.

Also... this has like... nothing to do with lore... Why are you in this channel with this even?

[spark valve]

it wouldn't be relevant to mention it because they're fundamentally vastly different things

sula is not doing the same thing the lord of shades does

they just aren't

[edgy barn]

I am very confused right now, who is Sula?

[spark valve]

and even being aware of the possibility means that if her writing was accounting for such scenarios it would be contradicted

[limpid summit]

Calling forth the void and controlling it would be analogous to the Lord of Shades

[spark valve]

it is not

[keen compass]

who needed the lore screenie of there being quite a few kingdoms beyond pharloom?

[spark valve]

because it's not an external entity

[limpid summit]

What

[abstract sentinel]

dude, its not that serious😭 imo the only thing thats bothering me is the runbacks, other than that I've enjoyed the game just as much as I did with HK. If it's not your cup of tea thats fine, doesn't mean you have to convince others it's inferior to the first game.

[keen compass]

calling forth the void is not the same as controlling it

The shamans in silksong call forth the void, they clearly cant control it though

[quartz plinth]

I don't want to convince others, i just want to know what i should think so i can be correct

[limpid summit]

TK isn’t pure void controlling void it IS its own entity lest you forget VH unifies it under its will

[spark valve]

A creature born of a bug's desperate hope for strength. Few possess the skill to call the void, and of those that can, none possess the means to tame it.
You are claiming that this is inclusive of something like the lord of shades, that is incoherent
you are claiming she is stating unambiguously that the lord of shades CANNOT exist

[elfin niche]

No, GMS.

[spark valve]

she's not

[misty umbra]

make up your own mind

[limpid summit]

That’s not at all what I’m claiming

[spark valve]

then she isn't talking about it

it's not relevant to the journal

[quartz plinth]

But its going to be wrong

[spark valve]

the set of things she's talking about excludes the lord of shades

[keen compass]

oh wait i cant access the room i need info from cuz it gets obliterated in act 3, fucklesticks xD

[abstract sentinel]

then why rant about it on discord? if you think silksong is worse than the original keep it to yourself

[misty umbra]

opinions are subjective.... there is no wrong or right

[next sable]

why are you so focused on right or wrong? the world is not that black and white?

[jaunty elm]

literally the first reference to hollow knight in this game 😭

[limpid summit]

That writing is an educated assumption based on the context that she assumes a Lord of Shades may exist but has not seen it

[quartz plinth]

Im not an expert on anything, i know shit about writting or game design i litterally have zero input in this

[limpid summit]

Hence Embrace the Void

[spark valve]

no that is utterly inconsistent with that lmao

read the journal entry again

[limpid summit]

Utterly is a strong word

[keen compass]

the real question imo is whether or not ETV or DMN is the canon ending for HK

[limpid summit]

I read it again

[spark valve]

if you think vh is included in that, she is STATING that it CAN NOT exist

[limpid summit]

They’re both canon endings

[keen compass]

cuz we know either or is the confirmed canonical ending

[spark valve]

this is obviously contradictory

it can exist, she knows it can exist, therefore, she's not including it

[obsidian quail]

what’s the subject of debate?

[keen compass]

yea but the void lord only appears in one, and he appears again in act 3

[limpid summit]

No? Simply that she assumes it DOES not

[next sable]

which HK ending is canon

[limpid summit]

That’s wondering in absolutes

[spark valve]

"none possess the means to tame it"

is a definitive statement

[limpid summit]

None will EVER possess the means to tame it

[next sable]

the crux of which is whether Hornet acknowledges the shade lord exists or not

[limpid summit]

Yes

An informed one if she hasn’t seen any with that means

[keen compass]

Idk what appeleg and tammo are arguing, but the void can't be controlled, it can only be directed

[elfin niche]

I don't think the Lord of Shades tamed the Void, he is the Void.

[spark valve]

you're arguing she deliberately created a being capable of doing that, with the knowledge that's what she was doing, knows she was successful, and because maybe she didn't see it physically happen she's actually stating that she definitively knows nothing exists with the capacity to do that

[spark valve]

that is very very very stupid and contradictory

[somber storm]

they just had to add some flare to dnm ending as a reward for beating dlc, i feel like they're pretty much the same ending

[keen compass]

this is true, he lord of shades is jsut the void when it has a clear common goal

a united front