sk-lore

[naive crag]

does she just die then

[iron whale]

Yes that's true ending

[timber pond]

It seems there is a process to create it involving soul because the weavers in ahllownest do it to make runes

And pharloom has facilities to do so in greymoor

[naive crag]

i mean in the hypothetical case shes not really immortal

considering she has to keep lace alive too

[pseudo stone]

Reminds me of the silk hearts, seems like maybe it's a similar thing? GMS wants weavers to augment her silk generation?

[naive crag]

in true ending she uses her physical body to give you silk

[craggy smelt]

maybe, I don't get the impression that she's running out or can run out, more that she's limited because she's bound and is harvesting the power to become unbound

[timber pond]

In the materium it says silk is a kind of soul concentrated. So there is a process to making it

[vague lance]

Not grandmother, grand mother. The separation of those words matters.

[timber pond]

It's used to make the black egf seal

[craggy smelt]

something innate to weavers maybe, investing their own Soul into their silk

[naive crag]

hornet gets silk the way the knight gets soul so maybe it doesnt need to be their own

[craggy smelt]

sure

[timber pond]

Well its made from soul

[craggy smelt]

just 'whatever soul you happen to have'

[naive crag]

but itd still be really strange if weavers have a power gms doesnt

[craggy smelt]

I wonder if all Weavers could do that, or if Hornet being able to gain Soul from attacking living beings is more a Wyrm thing

[iron whale]

To me it makes sense in both ways tho

[timber pond]

They had to be able, because they weaved the rune that sealde the hollow knight in hallownest

Weavers seem to have indavidual skill levels to weave diffrent rules and stuff

Kind of like how snail shamans seem to have diffrent indavidual skill levels when it comes to using void or soul

[sacred heath]

I think the whole “binding Soul to Silk in order to heal” thing is a certified Higher Being moment

i think

[craggy smelt]

First Sinner can do it

[zinc dove]

Wait what, did the GSM try to have more daughters? Pretty sure this is Lace

[naive crag]

thats phantom

[sacred heath]

fuck you’re right

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[naive crag]

phantom is made of silk like lace and is her sister

[sinful nimbus]

For one reason or another Phantom wasn't good enough

[craggy smelt]

yeah, phantom is like some kind of earlier version of Lace
falling apart though

[zinc dove]

Interesting, didn't know Phantom existed

[naive crag]

how did you get to the memory if you dont know about phantom

[craggy smelt]

phantom rules

[sacred heath]

and grandma waited a long ass time to make Lace after Phantom was a failure
seeing how old Phantom is and how young Lace is

[limpid summit]

Wasn’t Phantom like leaked a week before Silksong

I remember seeing people talking about Phantom the day before and I thought they were joking

[naive crag]

lace isnt young by any means she just looks and acts like it

[craggy smelt]

yeah, they're in the steam cards that got datamined

[naive crag]

maybe gms doesnt bother renewings phantoms silk and thats why she looks so old

[sinful nimbus]

RIP kitsune theory

[craggy smelt]

was so choked because I acidentally saw them - I thought phantom looked like Lace even then and was worried I'd gotten a look at like a final boss version of Lace or some shit

[limpid summit]

Ooh what was kitsune theory

[sinful nimbus]

-2 furry tails
-Probably supernatural
-Possibly undergoing metamorphosis
-Assuming the shape of Hornet/Lace
Phantom is a kitsune

[craggy smelt]

little did I know Lace would have another final boss version...

[limpid summit]

Like phantom was a shapeshifter like nosk

Man

We really got no Deepnest anything in SS

[sinful nimbus]

She apparently has nothing to do with Hornet but the mask sure made it look like she was a shapeshifter

[limpid summit]

Some Nosk type beast would have been so cool

[naive crag]

it was so bad tho i just pretend it doesnt exist

[sacred heath]

nosk final boss in the dlc trust

[sinful nimbus]

Lost Lace goes hard once you get over the fact that she's a tumblr OC

[zinc dove]

Okay I THINK I know who Phantom is now lmao

[naive crag]

lace nosk

[limpid summit]

Best boss theme in the game only one that doesn’t play in p5

[naive crag]

i dont like how everything feels so greater and then you just find emo lace

deltarune au but in silksong and its canon

[midnight vault]

Phantom is Lace's sister or something similar since the journal entry calls her a silk creation

[sinful nimbus]

I guess I wasn't that hurt because Act 3 had already hit rock bottom

[naive crag]

lace calls her sister

[sinful nimbus]

Only thing to focus on was gameplay

[limpid summit]

Despite everything it’s lace

[sacred heath]

on a tangent related to that
we had BETTER get some kind of godhome equivalent in Skong
there are so many peak bosses i just can’t imagine they wouldn’t add a way to refight em

[limpid summit]

There’s no doubt about it

Godmaster was the most replayable part of HK and TC are definitely going to capitalize

[naive crag]

im so scared tho

[sinful nimbus]

I can't wait to refight Great Beastfly 1 & 2 😍

[naive crag]

a pantheon where you need to fight karmelita and then lost lace back to back...

[midnight vault]

savage beastfly bouta be the run stopper before Ascended Silk Mother Lace or some new ending stuff like that

[timber pond]

Meh it makes sense and its a nice inversion twist from HK you gotta get past the guardians to get to the higher being. In silksong you beat the higher being to get to the ultimate gaurdian

[sinful nimbus]

Or the 3 Moss Mother fights

[naive crag]

it does make snse i just dont like it

[limpid summit]

Silksong just has so many bosses

Maybe some like Zango will be cut like Pale Lurker was

[pseudo stone]

4 simultaneous moorwings

[polar yacht]

every time you kill moss mother you kill a single mother. think about that.

[midnight vault]

I really just want a godhome to replay Karmelitas fight it's just so good

[sinful nimbus]

I really want to refight Last Judge and Carmelita

[craggy smelt]

i don't really want boss rushes, but I would like to re-fight some, so a hall of gods equivalent would be nice

[sinful nimbus]

Also there should be a way to redo the high halls/coral forest gauntlet that was super fun

[craggy smelt]

use the needolin to go to Memory Town or something

[timber pond]

I feel like godhome in this game would be a deeper void that goes into the memory of the acinet bugs

Because that's the inverse of hollow knught

[sacred heath]

let me refight first sinner that’s all I ask

[polar yacht]

Guys if we are being real modders will have a jank boss replaying menu in the game in 1 month tops

[neat sandal]

there is surface bug. you gain no silk from it

[sinful nimbus]

I just want a menu this time 😭

[naive crag]

do fleas have any lore or are they stupid and get stuck and thats it

[midnight vault]

Pretty much

[polar yacht]

yeah

[craggy smelt]

interesting

[craggy smelt]

booo
work it into the lore
new endings
best endings

[timber pond]

It does say that its free of influence in the joirnal

[sinful nimbus]

This makes no sense

[reef zephyr]

In the Cradle when theyre detailing places theyve captured Weavers I think its talking about new locations we havent seen in Hollow Knight or Silksong

[naive crag]

the grub ubersmench was better...

[sacred heath]

they flubfy

[sinful nimbus]

Even if there's no silk it should still be animated by soul which could be extracted and turned to silk

[polar yacht]

Yep

[reef zephyr]

thats cool

[midnight vault]

Cant wait for the Godhome ending to be another super cliffhanger that leads us into Hollow Knight 3

[naive crag]

i hope we get more hk universe content i dont wanna let go

[sacred heath]

who would win
higher being
or blue boy

[sinful nimbus]

TC is at their best with original stories

[timber pond]

I Think it might be a Steel City DLC or something

[polar yacht]

It seems like most civilizations in hk universe are completely fkd tho 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Kinda like irl

[naive crag]

how unlucky does their universe have to be for all the kingdoms to fall apart

[polar yacht]

We live in a society ah message

[sacred heath]

oh god I hope so
the masters are such a weird bunch and i wanna beat the shit outta Sharpe

[reef zephyr]

can someone give me a basic rundown of the story of Pharloom, I have the details but havent managed to string them together in my head

[sinful nimbus]

Well impermanence is just a fact of life and its a theme hammered home repeatedly in HK

[distant briar]

craw people were alright

[timber pond]

Man is the only one I see who hates new lore changing our perspective. Tears of the kingdom was way worse because it refused to acknowledge itself as a sequel 🤣

[neat sandal]

would new main is Lace?
cause you know who else is hollow.
it is Lace

[distant briar]

fire worshippers were alright too

[sinful nimbus]

TOTK continued BOTW's story though

[quartz flicker]

Lace's design is vastly inferior to Hornet's

[timber pond]

White lady says its in the nature of palebeings

[quartz flicker]

Shakra, on the other hand...

[sinful nimbus]

If TOTK was like silksong it would be a brand new kingdom that's basically just Hyrule 2 and rehashes the same exact story beats and themes

[naive crag]

wasnt it snail shaman who says that

its in wyrms nature to rule

[sinful nimbus]

Then it'd probably retcon Zelda's powers or something stupid

[neat sandal]

idk. I like rapier

[timber pond]

Yeah but if just kind of ignored half the shit that happens in it. Shekiah? Divine beasts? Who are they? Nope, now we have a new and separated Ancheint civilization lamo

[naive crag]

its hard to think of a character we already know as a protagonist for a potential third game

hornet works because shes half wyrm half weaver she has everything

[sinful nimbus]

Sheikah technology had its story concluded. HK also wrapped up basically all of its story elements and there was no reason to bring them back

[sacred heath]

is
is this an insult towards ToTK or Silksong i honestly cannot tell

[timber pond]

White lady in hornets memory says so as well

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong.

TOTK's story is meh but also inoffensive

[sacred heath]

zote

[naive crag]

yeah of course

[midnight vault]

https://tenor.com/view/zote-grey-prince-hollow-knight-zote-hollow-knight-prince-gris-gif-21172573

[timber pond]

So what you are saying is tears of the kingdom shouldn't have been made lol. Shekaih shit had a massive influence on the game and for the chracters to just like completely ignore and retcon that history and replace it with a 2nd one is really dumb

[naive crag]

true tho everyone talks about ''paralels in silksong and hollow knight'' but theyre just the same thing

[timber pond]

This game expands upon the history and so its good

[limpid summit]

The Mr Mushroom quest is so much better in Silksong

[sinful nimbus]

Sheikah technology is still there, its used in the towers. It just takes a backseat

[limpid summit]

His dialogue with Hornet at the end is cinema

[quartz flicker]

TotK has virtually no lore at all, and that itself is offensive

[distant briar]

I think they could just make up a new character in a new kingdom and make it somehow fit together with the current story

[sinful nimbus]

What TOTK does is expand upon Zelda's arc and previously unexplored elements in BOTW

[timber pond]

Yeah but like where the fuck did it all go all the shrines and divine beasts and shit.

[quartz flicker]

Silksong expands on the universe in some really fascinating ways

[nocturne oxide]

Gang

[quartz flicker]

The whole Citadel is crazy

[timber pond]

Yeah in another place that isn't the present (again)

[sinful nimbus]

Those are meant to deal with Calamity Ganon's malice and now that its gone there's no reason for them to stick around

[timber pond]

The timeline of history is non existent

[timber pond]

Ok but

[pseudo stone]

I know several of the shrines were replaced by the big holes to the underground, Divine Beasts are a good question though

[timber pond]

Where. did. They. Go.

[sinful nimbus]

Zelda stories almost always happens in the past idk what the issue is

[quartz flicker]

Silksong also has a staggering number of great new characters. TotK... not so much.

[sinful nimbus]

Back to the ground probably, or maybe they just disintegrated ancient arrow style

[neat sandal]

would be fun if third game mechanic is about parry and deflect thing.
honestly, I actually disapointed cause Hornet needle have shorter reach than Knight.
make no sense

[naive crag]

why is a silksong vs totk argument going on

[sacred heath]

we get so many tidbits, big and small, about the greater world
my personal favorite is the shit with the Mask Makers.

[timber pond]

My actions never moved the story foward im just reliving something that happened. In other Zelda games, you move shot foward in the present yourself

[timber pond]

And i gues every single npc just kind of forgot about them

[sinful nimbus]

SS glazers have an unusual tendency to bring up TOTK quite often

[sinful nimbus]

The people who actually have a reason to care didn't (EG Purah)

[naive crag]

she would be broken if she had a longer range

[limber anvil]

Its hard to be scared of the ||godlike entity formed by the cursed child ending|| when the void entity exists...

[naive crag]

she can already parry and reflect most things already

[sinful nimbus]

If you genuinely think no one remembers Sheikah technology you have never even gotten the first tower

[timber pond]

She never mentions it or gives a shit

[sinful nimbus]

The skyview towers are made with sheikah technology

[distant briar]

never played Totk nintendo ruined the game with them only having shit consoles in 720p quality

[sinful nimbus]

Thank you for your valuable contribution to the discussion

[distant briar]

no problem

[sacred heath]

you can be scared of two things at once

[timber pond]

Yeah but why are they only appearing with zonai tech bro. The beadts are massive there would be some trace of them

[quartz flicker]

The weirdest thing about TotK is that the Divine Beasts just vaporized

no remnants of them whatsoever

those things were huge

[sacred heath]

they were judged and sent to hell

where they belong

[limber anvil]

Fair... But the void entity would undoubtedly mop the floor with it as its a true god. A god of higher beings

[sinful nimbus]

They don't exactly leave many traces in BOTW that would be noticeable many years later

[distant briar]

why the fuck are you guys talking about shitty Zelda go to their discord if you wanna do that

[naive crag]

my oint exactly

[sinful nimbus]

I guess you could argue Rudania would leave footprints but like, it doesn't do that in BOTW either

[limber anvil]

Based on how the void is still it unified it.

[distant briar]

gtfo this is a silksong server

[timber pond]

We're the shekaih before or after zonai, how are they related? The game never answers these questions so it feels disjointed. This plot could have been an entirely separate Zelda game and it wouldn't have mattered

[sinful nimbus]

We are comparing TOTK to SS's story

[timber pond]

Silksong is inextricably connected to hollow knight and therefore I actually give a shit

[limber anvil]

Totk story is ass

[sinful nimbus]

If it was a different game Zelda's arc wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying

[sacred heath]

we don’t even know how powerful the thing is
born out of weaver and weaver god and pale king and whatever else Greyroot threw in there

[limber anvil]

It is one of the worst stories in the series

[sinful nimbus]

Its meh and inoffensive like basically all Zelda stories except Majora's Mask

[limber anvil]

Weaker than the god of the literal void

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong's story is meh and goes out of its way to ruin HK's story as well which is different

[timber pond]

I wish that arc happened with the chracter si actually interact with as link in both games though. It's like im taunted with all these cool chracters at the table next store only to get given scraps at mine.

[limber anvil]

???

The story is good

[quartz flicker]

I'm not sure that the Void Entity is really a Higher Being in a true sense, or if it can even exist outside of Godhome.

[timber pond]

Probably exists in the void

[sinful nimbus]

For the "meh" part: Its a rehash of the same story elements and themes as in HK

For the "actively goes out of its way to ruin HK's story" part: It retcons multiple things and paints a mischaracterization of the Pale King and the void.

[timber pond]

It expands on its ideas in a way that makes the world feel more alive how is that bad

[limber anvil]

Its litterly a god of gods able to obliderate the radiance

[sacred heath]

we don’t know that
and it’s not even a powerscaling thing
depending on the ending, shade lord either doesn’t exist, got poofed by the flower, or is just dicking around somewhere away from pharloom
the root god is right there.

[neat sandal]

yes. but not very rewarding
I would be extreme fun if we can spam Cross Stitch
of course not as strong as that

[keen axle]

Can you elaborate

[limber anvil]

Specifics please

[sinful nimbus]

The more callbacks to HK you add and make actually important to the story, the more small the world feels

[naive crag]

if you hit at the same time an enemy does you parry their attack

[limpid summit]

Hornet calls Pale King’s void toys dumb but they’re super cool

[sinful nimbus]

Snail Shamans now use void magic
3 queens is now canon
The hive is now renowned for their... steelwork?
Herrah is now a weaver
Void acts completely out of character
Apparently PK's moulds didn't work
The Hollow Knight and Sealed Siblings don't lead into Silksong

[limpid summit]

She’s wrong

[timber pond]

No it dosent because other things also now exist in this game that connects the multiple forces while also giving us new ones to speculate on

[quartz flicker]

?????? what balderdash is this

[limber anvil]

She calls the pale king foolish

[neat sandal]

I know. but it just like dodging.
you not causing damage when you parry

[limpid summit]

Final one didn’t matter really

[sinful nimbus]

For incorrect reasons yeah

[limpid summit]

All endings being canon doesn’t mean all of them had to lead into the sequel

[keen axle]

💔

[sinful nimbus]

Its a retcon of explicit statements from TC that were made for good reason

[sinful nimbus]

They said they'd account for all endings in future HK content

[limpid summit]

There can be multiple canon pathways

[limber anvil]

OK your wrong with nearly all of those points

[timber pond]

It's been half a decade bro lol they claret changed thier mind

[sinful nimbus]

Specifics please

[sinful nimbus]

So you admit its a retcon cool

[limpid summit]

To be fair that was when Silksong was a DLC and the “future HK content” was just HK

[foggy fractal]

I sense a sizable amount of discussion appoarching

[distant briar]

Ain‘t no way you guys are mad Silksong expands on Hollow Knight

[keen axle]

Don't snail shamans use soul magic

[sacred heath]

• they always could
• nothing wrong with that
• when was that ever said
• nothing wrong with that
• we don’t even see it
• fair
• why should they

[quartz flicker]

fam the Hive Knight used this thing.

[limber anvil]

Snail shamens used soul and void based upon the first game... Just all but 1 are dead... You get shade soul from one.

[distant briar]

Guys you are all falling for the trap

[distant briar]

this guy is clearly ragebaiting

[keen axle]

Also get the scream from them

[timber pond]

That part sure, but retcons don't always contradict. The ideas were still forming. But In that same AMA you are referring to, ari confirms that hornet is in fact the child of 3 mothers, hurrah birthed ,Vespa trained and raised by the whole lady

[quartz flicker]

some people needto consider that they don't understand Hollow Knight lore as well as they thought

[timber pond]

They just actualize it

[sinful nimbus]

No they couldn't, the snail shaman in HK explicitly states that Snail Shamans have never interacted with void

The Hive was an isolationist tribe and Midwife states Hornet was raised in Deepnest

Pinmaster

Its a retcon

Yes we do

Because that's what TC has stated in the past

[limpid summit]

• Snail Shaman says his line never thought to look in the Abyss to power their spells, to be fair this could just refer to Hallownest snails
• Hive was shut off there’s no reason why Vespa would do that
• Needlesmith

[keen axle]

Fr

[sinful nimbus]

Saying that there's no void in SS is crazy work

There is no war in ba sing se

[limber anvil]

3 queens was always planned but was uncertain lore wise since it didn't make it ingame
The hive was known for swordsmanship its no surprise they were known for steelwork their is heavy overlap in our history regarding that
Never clarified if herah was a weaver but it was already assumed due to her influence over the weavers and over deepest... Weavers are still common bugs just special among them.

[sinful nimbus]

None of these are substantiated

[timber pond]

The other snail shamans you brutally cracked open give us void powers openly in the first game, this is an expansion on it. The hive is isolationist but hornet probably sought mentorship anyway as confirmed by team cherrys own statements in that ama

[quartz flicker]

@sinful nimbus you know, some people overestimate their knowledge and/or aptitude at analysis

[distant briar]

Are you restarted we literally hit a crystalized shaman to upgrade our little soul pistol in a void pistol in hollow knight or was it the dive? But they upgraded it into void is the point

[limpid summit]

Herrah being a Weaver is sort of like Gear 5 it’s not a retcon in the sense that it was explicitly this could never happen but it was never teased or anything

[sinful nimbus]

Oh <@&283547423706447872> ableism fun

No reason to really engage with you anymore now that I know you're a moron

[sacred heath]

then
then how the goddamn actual fuck did we get descending dark
like shade soul could be explained as the goobers in the sanctum conducting experiments and we get shriek directly from the abyss
but the shaman witt ddark is about as far away from the void as you can get

[distant briar]

😭🙏🏻

[limpid summit]

Ancestral shaman tells us the shaman corpses are used as catalysts for us to transform our spells with the void inside us

[limber anvil]

How the void always wanted to consume all. And exists across the entire world of hollowknight
The pale kings molds work but hornet calls them foolish. Dosnt mean they don't work but dosnt mean their inverse side effects like leaking out to kill them
Cry about that ending being non canon I drink those tears

[sacred heath]

ah
never mind then

[sinful nimbus]

The void powers come from the Knight as the Snail Shaman states

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

[limber anvil]

Your coping based upon an 8 year old comment

Do you even watch mossbag

[sinful nimbus]

Well yes its a retcon

[limpid summit]

I think the Shaman void stuff is the least egregious change to be fair

Like Pharloom is different from Hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

The guy who said SS was a prequel?

[limpid summit]

It’s the Herrah weaver stuff that personally grinds my gears 😡😡😡

[limber anvil]

That is the one retcon and it wasn't even in game canon but from reddit they could change your mind

[naive crag]

most of what we knew about weavers was retconned tbh

[limber anvil]

Its a sequel cry about it

[quartz flicker]

Silksong is a sequel and the Snail Shamans are capable of making new discoveries, including those related to the Void.

[sacred heath]

yeah it could be explained as the snails of Pharloom being more eager/less knowledgeable of the void

[limber anvil]

True but we knew they were special bugs like the moths

[distant briar]

why the hell would you be mad about that

[sacred heath]

and fucking around with it

[limber anvil]

Moths arnt normal bugs they have dream powers

Weavers had silk and soul powers

[limpid summit]

I’m not actually mad but I do think it makes the Deepnest spiders less special and they were the least developed of the tribes

[limber anvil]

Snails have void and soul powers

They are higher bugs but not higher beings

[timber pond]

They deal in power. The snail shamans in the first mound seemed to remain secluded or didn't really have a mind to tell us his truth. If pale beings,soul and the void are linked in some way like the white lady states then they can be harnessed by anyone with the power aptitudeand knowledge to do so, including the "masters" of the steel city.

[deep elk]

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT-
Spoilers for game of course

So Hornet's needle was made in the ||Hive||?!

[limber anvil]

Closer to old rulers in terms of classification

[naive crag]

vespa trained hornet and gave her her needle

[sinful nimbus]

Being able to handwave something doesn't make it not a retcon or good writing

[naive crag]

i also believe she named her

[deep elk]

OH WOW. Is that said in this game?

[limber anvil]

Societies that are known for weapons generally make them yhemsleves no supirse

[naive crag]

yes

[deep elk]

I actually didn't know that haha

[limber anvil]

Also based on t4 needel the ||pk game them pale ore to make it||

[deep elk]

Silksong or Hollow Knight?

[naive crag]

really late game in silksong

[limber anvil]

I'm a history nerd...

[timber pond]

How is it even bad though?? We know snail shamans are shamans and can have the capacity for this stuff

[deep elk]

Fair :3

[teal shell]

are we still seriously on the retcon stuff😭

[sinful nimbus]

Rehashing story elements for no interesting narrative reason is bad writing, especially when it retcons prior statements from knowledgeable characters

[limber anvil]

Your saying the hive dosnt have ||steel work ||is a reach based upon vespa and the hiveknight alone this is how weapons works in history

[teal shell]

bad writing is a heavy reach dude

[naive crag]

btw do we know if weavers were relevant in hallownest or if vespa has some type of connection to them?

[limber anvil]

Societies that could make steel made supior weapons... So they became known for weaponry

[naive crag]

she seems to know a lot

[sinful nimbus]

Are you inclined to say "Oh wow guys its the thing from HK isn't that so cool" is good writing

[teal shell]

when does that even happen

[limber anvil]

some retcons but that is expected... Nowhere near as bad as totk

[sacred heath]

and like
team cherry was cooking Silksong and its story up for 6 years
I would be shocked if there werent any retcons after that long of a private cooking sesh

[sinful nimbus]

When they bring in void and delicate flowers and the red memory

[timber pond]

That original snail shamans has dioluge that implied to me at elast, he is misleading you. From the moment you meet him he shoves you in a cage to test you. I don't trust him, and this game shows you why you shouldnt

[limber anvil]

Sequels nearly always retcon things

[teal shell]

how is this jingling keys tho?

[sinful nimbus]

He's not implied to be lying to you about the shaman stuff though

[keen axle]

Did they even do void magic looked more like opening a portal to the abyss

[limber anvil]

Snail shamens are lyiers

[limber anvil]

They had shade soul in a corpse but all but 1 is dead in hollowknight

[teal shell]

ur describing jingling keys when the void is like key to nearly every part of hk, its not something unreasonable to have sequel of game about the void have void

[timber pond]

But how can you trust anything he says when he has the same carefree attitude while making you do his dirty work man

[naive crag]

their original plan wouldve worked if it wasnt for lace tho

[sinful nimbus]

Void had very specific thematic connotations in HK that are completely disregarded in Silksong

[teal shell]

this isnt a robert downey jr as doctor doom this is just whats known as story telling

[limber anvil]

The void is probably the lowest layer if not the center of the world

[sinful nimbus]

Because all the other information he relays is correct

[timber pond]

This is true, they were only summoning void as a means to an end

[teal shell]

exactly its like pivotal to everything 😭

[neat sandal]

everyone claim they made the strongest steel 😭

[limber anvil]

Yup it's everywhere

[teal shell]

itd be like dark souls not having mentioning the first flame, like duh its key to everything lmao

me when game series uses specific settings and ideas more than once lol

[timber pond]

Being correct dosent mean you are not hiding information. Lie of omission. Soul can be used to summon or transform void in some way, even in the first game

[sacred heath]

there was a whole ass ancient pre-EVERYTHING civilization that worshipped it and made the arcane eggs and shit
would have been weirder if it didn’t show up

[teal shell]

the only jingle key moment you could even argue is the knight showing up and even then that isnt so far fetched

[limber anvil]

Act 3 spoilers but ||hornets nail is made from pure pale ore using hive forge techniques||

[sinful nimbus]

It was advertised as a spinoff story separate to HK (which I need to emphasize finished its story utterly and completely) so bringing in story elements from a FINISHED story is obviously contrived and boring

Void wasn't ever implied to be central to the world until Silksong

[quartz flicker]

Hornet has a close connection to the Void because of her family. The Void existing below Pharloon is an extremely important bit of worldbuilding.

[teal shell]

spin offs very often involve key plot points from the main games??

[high bane]

Bringing in story elements from... the setting that the story is set in?

[limber anvil]

The pale king got the best weapon possible made for his only gendered child is that any suprise

[sacred heath]

i
don’t think this is true actually

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet's connection to void starts and ends with her siblings being made of it

[wild falcon]

I think abyss is everywhere, it is like lower layer of the world

[teal shell]

jesus christ your just doing this stuff again, they never said otherwise holy butt

[limber anvil]

The knight is basically the lord of the voidm

[quartz flicker]

Like Hornet's sibling is literally a Void denizen now.

[sinful nimbus]

Prove me wrong

[limber anvil]

More like god of the void

[teal shell]

this is some like college campus debate me logic where you just repeat a borderline headcanon over and over and over and act like its bad writing

[limber anvil]

We know vessels had emotions

[neat sandal]

How it compare to this dude
I like pure nail pattern more than boring hexagon hive steel

[wild falcon]

Imperfect ones

[quartz flicker]

those are literally her only remaining living relatives

[teal shell]

which is key to the knights story as a whole

[naive crag]

they were all imperfect

[sinful nimbus]

Which had their story completely finished in Hollow Knight. Why would they be relevant to Silksong?

[teal shell]

there is no such thing as a perfect vessel

[sinful nimbus]

Its beating a dead horse

[teal shell]

the idea of a purely hollow knight is impossible

[quartz flicker]

the revelation that Hornet still has living family is kind of huge

[limber anvil]

Yup they are just mostly hollow but have emotions but don't speak

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't

[timber pond]

Because its apart of her past she must overcome

[wild falcon]

Hive forge, it becomes pale because you use pale oil on it

[teal shell]

beating dead horse and its

bringing up key plot point from previous game

[keen axle]

They aren't they only show up at the end

[sinful nimbus]

HK was already about overcoming your past, SS being a repeat of those themes isn't a good thing its just unoriginal and uninspired

[teal shell]

its not

you actually just have a hate boner for silksong atp and just want to bring every conversation down with you

[quartz flicker]

they aren't exactly dead, are they?

[naive crag]

is this ragebait

[limber anvil]

Maybe... But the strongest ore in hollownest is pale ore so probably all 3.

[modern bay]

The vessels, as far as I know, were created to counter infection in Hallownest. Why would they not follow this same motif elsewhere once they lose purpose?

[sinful nimbus]

If you can't contribute to the conversation besides going "nuh uh" and insulting me you can leave

[timber pond]

I could say the same thing about teras of the kingdom dude. You think you could reinvent the wheel better?lmao

[sacred heath]

little ghost showing up like
“hey sis how ya doing? killing god? okay cool see you never bye”

[modern bay]

Yeah this is kind of what I'm thinking

[teal shell]

you repeat over and over and over and over that your headcanons are canon dude

[keen axle]

Or 9/10 ragebait

[teal shell]

im sorry i do have genuine conversations but you just bring the whole chat down whenever you go on with your retcons

if you dont like the game and story thats okay, all power to you, dont act like your subjective opinion is fact and try to poison others wells

[modern bay]

Everything is a retcon guys you heard it here first from official lore writer Starpengu on Hollow Knight Discord server

[tawdry frost]

yo anyone have any ideas abt the lore of this room ||hidden room in one of the underworks bench stations||

[sacred heath]

that depends
what’s in it

[hybrid portal]

its the confession stand ( i think )

[timber pond]

It's not like silksong dosent add any new elements also. We have the fucking God eating parasite and the Steel city to mull over

[tawdry frost]

yes

[limber anvil]

Plain takeaway is there 3 classifications of entities
Normal bugs
Higher bugs
Higher brings
Then the abnormality of void entities

[craggy smelt]

automated confessional, keeps the workers perpetually labouring to alleviate imagined sins

[tawdry frost]

yesyes

[keen axle]

The otherside has a speaker

[tawdry frost]

but like

[timber pond]

I think pale beings might be above higher being

[sinful nimbus]

What are you on about. The only thing I said was that TC was better at creating original stories and someone else started the conversation we are having now.

[limber anvil]

Maybe.
We know of 6

[teal shell]

because you did this same thing yesterday

[tawdry frost]

all the members in the citadel should be pure

[sinful nimbus]

Which is fine

[tawdry frost]

bcuz of ||last judge|| right?

[sinful nimbus]

If you don't like the topic you can not engage with it instead of insulting me

[teal shell]

you go over and over and over about your headcanon as canon and get super defensive and pissy about it, its annoying

[naive crag]

starpengu ragebait expert

[sinful nimbus]

Don't engage with topics you dislike in bad faith

[keen axle]

Bto couldn't do shit against the radiance

[naive crag]

actually made it awful to participate in this chat for the last 20 minutes

[sinful nimbus]

Its really not that hard

[teal shell]

literally what your doing

[craggy smelt]

Citadel isn't exactly on the level
the Underworks isn't the Citadel proper in any case, the bugs there labour believing they will ascend through their works

[sinful nimbus]

I'm engaging with a topic I like

[teal shell]

that is exactly the very thing you are doing

clearly not??? your calling it awful writing at every turn

[pseudo stone]

That's the topic they like, complaining about things

[modern bay]

Yeah I mean just calling Silksong poor writing or "they probably forgot" is really presumptuous

[tawdry frost]

ooooh

[sinful nimbus]

Critiquing stories is enjoyable to me, and pretending I'm doing it to be antagonistic or bringing the mood down is a blatant ad hominem and really just diverts the conversation away from what it should be

[teal shell]

its how much you go on and on and on about it

[drowsy mortar]

Sort of, to ascend the ranks of the Citadel you need a certain level of blind faith

[tawdry frost]

i see i see

[timber pond]

It's not because it expands on hornets story which is hinted at all over the first game which was planned along with the original hollowknight as being expanded upon in a DLC all the way back from the OG kickstarter backing. The hints to this game are everywhere and the things in silksong are NOT unwarented.

[limber anvil]

Weavers, moths and snail shamens are higher bugs and maybe the rulers of speicies or maybe those are higher beings
Then the 6 known pale beings are PK white lady ||grandmother silk|| radiance hornet and ||lace|| I think

[teal shell]

your not critiquing it your just dogging on it and refusing to engage

[sinful nimbus]

I provided my reasoning actually

[timber pond]

BTO?

[tawdry frost]

also does the ||confession|| booth do anything other than lore?

[naive crag]

you dont need to spoiler in this channel

[modern bay]

Saying a story is bad is not critique, it's just a statement on the quality of something

[keen axle]

Bro

[pseudo stone]

steals your rosaries

[tawdry frost]

oh cool

[limber anvil]

Ok

[drowsy mortar]

This is wrong

[tawdry frost]

oh 😭

[teal shell]

im ending this convo with the fact that your just being a genuine debbie downer, did it yesterday and its getting extremely annoying

[craggy smelt]

takes your money

[sinful nimbus]

That is what a critique is 🥴

[wild falcon]

Opinion is not a statement

[limber anvil]

Are lace and radiance pale beings?

[sinful nimbus]

I evaluated the quality of a work and gave my reasoning that is the most critique critique there can be

[sinful nimbus]

Doesn't seem like it

[sacred heath]

my theory is
while they were cooking up skong they might have discussed some lore points and decided to change them to better suit the story they wanted to tell
which is all well and good until they
forgot to tell anyone else they did that
and now we’re here

[wild falcon]

Lace is artificial life made of silk

[modern bay]

No, a critique is pointing out flaws in a story, not stating that something is bad

[keen axle]

Not really you can't do anything with it is bad

[wild falcon]

She has nothing to do with higher beings

[sinful nimbus]

I said something was bad for its flaws

[limber anvil]

I study books and the lore is good.

[naive crag]

they arent

[craggy smelt]

I think Radiance should be considered one in light of the new lore about pale beings, Lace is a creation of silk, I don't think she qualifies

[teal shell]

also that calling something bad is not a critique especially since your not engaging in any critical conversation about it just digging your heels in and going “lalalala its bad i dont care”

[hybrid portal]

snail shamans are void themselves right?

[drowsy mortar]

1. Weavers, Moths and Shamans are not HBs
2. Rad is not a pale being

[sinful nimbus]

Why are we pretending I just said "Silksong is bad" and didn't elaborate. I gave my reasoning

[drowsy mortar]

Neither is Hornet really

[wild falcon]

She is demi-wyrm tho

[normal abyss]

Hornet is like half pale being

[limber anvil]

Question is does making her of living silk make Her a higher being... Or something

[modern bay]

"an official account of facts, views, or plans, especially one for release to the media"

[sinful nimbus]

Like I thought you guys were at least reading my messages but apparently not. You can put "From:Starpengu" into the search bar to see why I dislike the story

[teal shell]

your reasoning is goijg in circles about the retcons or jingle keys

[wild falcon]

Silk is the result of Weaver lifespan

[drowsy mortar]

She is still not classified as a pale being by any character in game

[limber anvil]

Probably became a full one due to being half.

[craggy smelt]

hornet refers to herself as a pale being when talking about pale beings as a whole

[teal shell]

your calling the game bad, thats not an opinionated statement thats portrayed as fact, its ifky

[drowsy mortar]

Lace is a pale being as a result of being a being entirely made of soul infused silk

[teal shell]

anyway

[sinful nimbus]

Subjective evaluations of a piece of media are always implied to be subjective

[drowsy mortar]

Source?

[limber anvil]

that is the question

[sinful nimbus]

Like if you don't understand how subjectivity or conversations work I cannot really help you

[drowsy mortar]

What question

[normal abyss]

Shes referred to as "Old one" quite often by lots of the citadel bugs, might be important might not, idk

[naive crag]

at some point it feels like they call anything really white a pale being

[limber anvil]

The source is talking to the green prince

[wild falcon]

When someone told this guy to the gym, he decided to practice mental gymnastics

[keen axle]

She mostly refers to higher beings don't think she has mentioned pale beings

[teal shell]

like how herrah was apparently implied to not be weaver 🫨

[limber anvil]

She says her kind

Which are pale beings

[wild falcon]

I am pale being (I haven't seen a sun in a month)

[neat sandal]

higher being is someone could give sentient to normal bug

[drowsy mortar]

Pale usually refers to beings or objects highly infused with soul

[craggy smelt]

when talking to Green Prince in the Verdania memory - something about how they were doomed when facing a pale being
I forget the line exactly, but she refers to 'our kind' and how dominance or destruction is evitable when 'our kind' are involved

[sinful nimbus]

That is not an opinion that's an objective statement

[limber anvil]

OK that makes sense

[modern bay]

I mean, plainly stating something is bad when the perspective is based on assumptions is not well-informed decision-making is in bad faith in my opinion.

[teal shell]

im just repeating what you said yesterday dude

[sinful nimbus]

Genuinely its impossible for you to be engaging with this argument in good faith if you think I ever said that herrah not being a weaver was an opinion

Either that or you can't read

[naive crag]

but that makes pale being a status and not a power title then right

[teal shell]

im not engaging in any arguments because it shouldnt be one in the first place

[drowsy mortar]

This is also kinda wrong, at the very least too vague

[limber anvil]

Odds are lace is infused with a large amount of grandmothers silks power and own thread

[modern bay]

Herrah is a Weaver though...

[sinful nimbus]

Its not based on any assumptions I gave my evidence

[limber anvil]

Or made entirely from grandmother silks own thread.

[normal abyss]

lace is literally made of silk. So is phantom

[teal shell]

like how ur evidence for herrah not being a weaver is “she looks different and i headcanoned it” lol

[sinful nimbus]

If you are not reading my messages or have a false perception of reality it's going to be very difficult to engage with you

[wild falcon]

Literally giant spider

[drowsy mortar]

Higher Beings are literal Gods, they have immense domain over a specific area and probably were heavily involved in the development of the species that live there

[modern bay]

She's also legitimately the queen of the Weavers

It just doesn't make any sense dude

[teal shell]

can we get a list of all known higher beings i think that woild make this convo alot simpler

[limber anvil]

Queens tend to look different

Every queen looks different from their race

[sinful nimbus]

You clearly haven't been reading the conversation. I know that. My claim was that they retconned Herrah into a weaver

[drowsy mortar]

Pale King
White Lady
Unn
Rad
Abyss Creature
Silk
Nightmare Heart

[modern bay]

No, Herrah has ALWAYS been a Weaver

[true spear]

nightmare heart

[limber anvil]

Never confirmed or denied in hollowknight

All we get is someone calling herra a common bug

[modern bay]

Your misunderstanding of the story is poorly influencing your view of the story

[teal shell]

lit, now what about “confirmed” pale beings

[limber anvil]

Which could be an insult

[sinful nimbus]

That's why they designed her to look like the devouts and not the weavers and gave no indication of her special powers or species at all

[normal abyss]

I think all known higher beings so far are unn, radiance, nightmare heart, shade lord, and I think thats all. (if you count the lifeblood creature then that too.)

[timber pond]

Nyleth, Kahn, unn ,grim, skarsinger, radiance ,white lady, pale king ,Shade Lord, Silk. Uhhh

[teal shell]

i sont think grimm is a higher beings

[modern bay]

You literally never fight her, she's a Dreamer

[drowsy mortar]

White Lady
PK
Lace
Silk
Hornet (maybe)

[limber anvil]

Grandmother silk is called a higher being

[naive crag]

pale king, white lady, gms are confirmed pale

[sinful nimbus]

That is not related to literally anything I said 😐

[normal abyss]

oh dang, thought she was only refered to as pale being, mb

[teal shell]

cool, im just tryna clear it up because its hard to keep track of whats what rn lmao

[limber anvil]

Radiance probably

[drowsy mortar]

No...

[sinful nimbus]

.

[modern bay]

Her capabilities would likely be shown in battle

[timber pond]

He might temporarily become one when Nightmare King ritual is at its hight

[craggy smelt]

with Silk described as a pale being, it's clear that the category 'pale being' is now meant to refer to more than just WL and PK
with PK calling Rad 'blazing kin', I think this means that 'pale being' is something that refers to a particular group of powerful entities and things related to them, not just Hallownest royalty
I don't see any reason why Rad wouldn't now be included in this category, with how it's been expanded on

[wild falcon]

Do you think that lace is pale being?

[limber anvil]

Pale beings are higher beings

[modern bay]

It's related you snide mf

[naive crag]

what if pale beings are somewhat capable of resisting the void?

[sacred heath]

he’s a slightly higher being
moderately elevated being

[sinful nimbus]

Weaver silk isn't specifically related to combat prowess

[limber anvil]

... What is this edit

[normal abyss]

oh fr?? I thought they were like the mini higher beings

[naive crag]

gms is able to hold onto life even deep inside the void

[drowsy mortar]

Lace is not a HB

[limber anvil]

Hornet talks like they are

[naive crag]

the white lady knows about the everbloom somehow

[drowsy mortar]

No...?

Hornet treats Lace like a child lmao

[nimble walrus]

hornet just acknowledges their humanity bugness

[modern bay]

But the entire Weaver area is related to spiders and they show her position as a queen in Deepnest and they show the web covered nest when you get kidnapped. What more do you need shoved in your face to have it confirmed

[limber anvil]

I mean to the green princes referring to silk

[teal shell]

hornet treats lace like a childish bomb about to explode lol

[limber anvil]

Which a higher being could be

[drowsy mortar]

Silk and Lace are 2 different people

[naive crag]

also what even is palestag

[wild falcon]

Do they become friends after true ending though 🤔

[teal shell]

i dont think lace is a higher being but i do think she can fall under the broader term of pale being

[craggy smelt]

described as 'pale touched' by the Green Prince
so not a pale being, but maybe something touched with their power
possibly also the explanation of things like pale ore and pale oil

[limber anvil]

She says their decline and ruin was inevitable to the arrival of her kind a pale being

Didn't even say higher being.

[drowsy mortar]

Lace is not a higher being, she is an artifical lifeform created from silk

[sinful nimbus]

All of that is entirely consistent with Herrah being a regular spider. Weavers are special types of spiders with a special type of silk which Herrah is not indicated to be/have

[teal shell]

i think pale being is meant to distinguish the higher beings who “glow” with their pale light like pk and wl, lace falls under that but she herself is not a higher beings

[drowsy mortar]

Okay someone actually send me the cap of this quote

[limber anvil]

If entirely from silks own thread then she would be a higher being.

[drowsy mortar]

I feel like it's being misread to me

[modern bay]

All of the spiders, as far as we know, are Weavers

The tribe is all consisting of Weavers

[drowsy mortar]

This is very not true

[sinful nimbus]

This isn't true

[obsidian quail]

Lace and Hornet’s conversation about Silk when Hornet first arrived at the citadel confirms her as Pale Higher Being

[teal shell]

i think lace would essentially be like a demi higher beings

[craggy smelt]

no, that'd be like saying the mosskin are higher beings because they all come from a higher being's dreams

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers are the spiders from Pharloom

[limber anvil]

... My save is way past it... She says it in the intro to the clover dancers fight

[nimble walrus]

if herrah is not a weaver how would hornet be a weaver?

[sinful nimbus]

Regular spiders would be the devouts and stuff

[drowsy mortar]

Weavers are not HBs and they are very silk invested

[limber anvil]

Yeah

[sinful nimbus]

This is supported by the artbook which claims the two to be separate tribes and you can also see it clearly in the game

[obsidian quail]

Lace is just an artificial being made of silk

[craggy smelt]

she is a weaver, that just wasn't made explicitly clear in the first game

[drowsy mortar]

Silk concentration does not make you a HB

Silk is a HB because she literally is Silk

[limber anvil]

Silk from grandmother silk would make it her actual own child...

[teal shell]

i think we are just a bit too open to throwinf the term higher being around

[modern bay]

The Weaver tribe who first arrived INCLUDES Herrah

[drowsy mortar]

Not the same thing, also Lace does not have that kind of power anyway

[teal shell]

but but but herrah looky different

[limber anvil]

Hornet dosnt seem to show it either

[nimble walrus]

was GMS always made of silk or did she actually begin out as a weaver and then became pure silk while abandoning her physical shell?

[obsidian quail]

that doesn’t make Lace a higher being even if u put it like that

[wild falcon]

What is even silk mother. Weaver God?

[drowsy mortar]

Yes she does

[sinful nimbus]

... I know, but this wasn't the case back when HK first released

[limber anvil]

True

[modern bay]

"The Weavers were a tribe of spiders that used to reside deep in the recesses of Deepnest in their own den. Despite bearing resemblance to the other creatures in Deepnest, such as the Deepling, they came from outside of Hallownest and established their own history and culture in Deepnest."

[limber anvil]

Well is hornet a higher being or only a pale being

[drowsy mortar]

Her crest binding as a whole is unique to her Wyrm heritage

[craggy smelt]

she created the first Weavers, she is described as the 'primal source of Silk'
like how Radiance was a being of magical light, and created the first moths

[limber anvil]

Yup

[drowsy mortar]

Lace has nothing unique she inherits from Silk to denote her as a HB

[obsidian quail]

Herrah was for sure not intended to be a Weaver but they changed their mind, that’s it it’s fine

[drowsy mortar]

She is also vastly less powerful than Silk

[teal shell]

herrah just wasnt implied to be anything other than a spider

[naive crag]

yeah it doesnt make sense to be mad about it

[drowsy mortar]

If the argument is that she is a pureblood offsping of a HB, then this does not check

[naive crag]

they probably didnt think 9 years ahead when making the game

[spark valve]

Careful people get really upset if you point that out apparently

[limber anvil]

Yet silk protects her with all her might... Feels like she Sees lace as her true daughtsr

[teal shell]

going back and being like yeah shes a weaver btw isnt exactly anything special

[modern bay]

"Weaversong description: "left by the Weavers who departed Hallownest for their old home""

[sinful nimbus]

Its really not a big deal on its own but it adds fuel onto the already big fire of SS retcons

[drowsy mortar]

Yeah that still doesn't make her a God bud

[limber anvil]

Weavers are higher bugs

[limber anvil]

True

[sinful nimbus]

This is not about Herrah

[drowsy mortar]

They are not

[spark valve]

It’s relatively innocuous

[modern bay]

Are you intentionally ignoring information given in the first game or?

[sinful nimbus]

There is no information in the first game that indicates Herrah was a weaver?

[spark valve]

She’s not

[teal shell]

you genuinely acting like team cherry shit in your cereal here

[timber pond]

Well to be fari we though all weavers were just spiders

[craggy smelt]

higher being refers to entities of particularly great power, not everything derived from a higher being qualifies
moths and mosskin were created by higher beings, they aren't hbs themselves

[modern bay]

Except for the fact that she was queen of the Weavers??

[drowsy mortar]

Weavers are basically more magically inclined Hallownest bugs that were granted sentience and some power by Silk

[sinful nimbus]

She ruled deepnest as a whole so of course that would include the weavers

[teal shell]

herrah being a weaver if a retcon is so insignificant that it doesnt warrant all this attention you draw to it

and again its hardly a retcon

[limber anvil]

I mean above common bugs not higher beings... Like the moth tribe and snail shamens...

[teal shell]

its a story expansion of a character with fuckall known about them

[spark valve]

She presided over the entirety of deepnest. This includes both the weavers and the native spiders, to whom she bears far greater resemblance

[limber anvil]

They are just a supiror race

With special powers

[modern bay]

This as well, it's not even a retcon it's an expansion if this is the case

[drowsy mortar]

I'm gonna say it: the people getting up in arms that weavers can be more than just orbs with legs are reaching

[modern bay]

Giving us knowledge that was not present prior

[limber anvil]

While most bugs are lesser like standard ones we see in both games

[craggy smelt]

there is a range of power below 'higher being' status yes, some bugs/races are more powerful than others

[spark valve]

Google what a retcon is

[teal shell]

not every detail added to a character in a new game is a retcon

[drowsy mortar]

I mean sure?

[teal shell]

its not contradicting anything prior, its all new info

[spark valve]

Holy strawman

[teal shell]

thats not even a strawman what?

[limber anvil]

Weaver snail shamens and moths plus elites of each species fall under this catagory. (Rulers or famous warriors)

[drowsy mortar]

Also this by definition is not a retcon unless it actively removes something about her character

Which it does not

[teal shell]

not even the first time you did the strawman bit it never made sense the last tone either

[nimble walrus]

what exactly was the intent behind the weaver hunt? i originally thought they needed weavers for their silk but seein gthat gms is the source of silk i'm not so sure anymore

[limber anvil]

Meanwhile standard husks are lesser bugs

[teal shell]

i feel like your just here to try cause arguments

[drowsy mortar]

GMS has abandonment issues and wants the kids back

[sinful nimbus]

She probably can't make enough silk to sustain Lace on her own

[teal shell]

they took the kids in the divorce💔

[nimble walrus]

meanwhile phantom is dying in a swamp

[limber anvil]

Yes... But my crackpot theory is grandmother silk used a lot of her own power and silk to create lace in her desire for a child making her incapable of creating new weavers thus silk started to run out

[drowsy mortar]

Uhhh, no

[limber anvil]

Like I said crackpot.

[true spear]

yup

[drowsy mortar]

Silk literally is Silk, if it ever ran out she'd just cease existing

[true spear]

silk and shaw

[spark valve]

The weavers knocked her out and drugged her with music no shit she can’t and wouldn’t just make more

[lapis geode]

I just met Eva from the... underground thingy.
Are we gonna see her face later on?

[modern bay]

This would explain why her bossfight was so underwhelming

[limber anvil]

Then why would she kidnap hornet if she is asleep

[modern bay]

(joke)

[spark valve]

For her silk

[naive crag]

no

[limber anvil]

And how could she give orders to directly hunt her if she is asleep

[neat sandal]

not only Lace consume silk
it is capitalism
they need more silk to run Citadel economy

[modern bay]

Yes

[drowsy mortar]

It''s a Rad situation, she can still sense things while dormant

[naive crag]

wait where

[lapis geode]

...that little bug wouldn't produce too much silk for her, right?
Still a nonsense operation held by the Citadel

[modern bay]

I lied

[nimble walrus]

from my understanding even in her dream silk cold influence the real world with the haunting

[spark valve]

She’s a god mind controlling a large number of bugs. She can do this even when partially asleep.

[limber anvil]

I see

[lapis geode]

She's in REM sleep. Ofc she can do that.

[polar yacht]

Do the Weavers leave Pharloom before or after the Conductors take over for them and keep GMS asleep? I'd assume after, right?

[naive crag]

why did gms start controlling the bugs is there a reason or just because she could

[limber anvil]

Also shy Are silks limbs literal sewing needles

[nimble walrus]

they couldn't keep silk trapped because anyone with silk was vulnerable to getting haunted

[drowsy mortar]

She also has a sense for silk wherever it is in the world, seeing a spot of silk in an area not inside her domain probably piqued her interest

[true spear]

shaw server tag?

[drowsy mortar]

Also yeah this

[spark valve]

Some of them left before gms was put to sleep. Those that didn’t put her to sleep, then later got wiped out by the conductors

[true spear]

what exactly are the conductors

[spark valve]

The leaders of the citadel caste

[drowsy mortar]

Basically the citadels generals

[limber anvil]

Ah

[drowsy mortar]

The conductors command the forces of the choir

[true spear]

oh ok

[naive crag]

in comparison to hollow knight i dont like the new ''dreamers''

[drowsy mortar]

Do we know when the Sentinels were built?

[naive crag]

monomon and herrah were way more interesting than the melodies

[limber anvil]

So the leaders society usperped the kingdom from silk wiped out the weavers keeping her asleep. To act as their own rulers without a higher being and used silk to make themselves live forever.
In turn making them to the haunting in their desire to rule they sealed their god which then brought theirbsociety to ruin

[drowsy mortar]

Oh those aren't the dreamers

[polar yacht]

Can u elaborate on how the Weavers were wiped out? I'm making a very basic write up of the core silksong plot/timeline

Were they wiped out from being captured and used for their silk, or from an intentional extermination?

[drowsy mortar]

You'll meet them when you get to Act 3

[true spear]

dreamers like carmelita?

[naive crag]

i got true ending already

[spark valve]

The citadel caste came in, saw an opportunity to take over from the weakening weavers, and did

[naive crag]

by dreamers i refer to melodies since they are the equivalent

[orchid vale]

but the dreamers are much more comparable to the hearts for true ending than the melodies, and the bosses for those hearts are sick

[limber anvil]

There 4 dreamers all are full fleshed bosses

[drowsy mortar]

The melodies aren't really supposed to be treated like the dreamers though that's kinda the point

[limber anvil]

Unlike hollowknught where most are simple

[naive crag]

i do really like the bosses in design and battle but their lore lacks

[drowsy mortar]

I do wish we got more on the ants and the crabs

[modern bay]

It's more like the puzzles at the entrance to the Minotaur's maze or whatever that story was.

[naive crag]

we barely get anything from them

[drowsy mortar]

It does kinda suck we are stuck starting the game after their civilizations have basically died out

[modern bay]

The coral boss was a bit underwhelming but I agree otherwise

[lapis geode]

"dying" is the right term.
Died out will be Hallownest

[limber anvil]

Queen of the ants the green prince the king of the coral and the heart of shellwood

[true spear]

yup

[drowsy mortar]

No Ants and Crabs are dead dead

Dying is Pharloom

[lapis geode]

Anyway, are we getting "Colosseum of Fools" too in Silksong?
I'm still looking and travelling on the ant's territory and found none.

[naive crag]

i find monomon infinitely more interesting than any heart

[limber anvil]

There is a cut hermitcrab village

[drowsy mortar]

We dunno what may be in DLC aside from probably a backer boss

[sinful nimbus]

RIP Lomm

DLC hopefully 😔

But I suspect he would've been in a coral forest subarea so maybe not

[true spear]

lion village rip

[limber anvil]

We lost the steel assassins
Hermit crab village
And the coral area instead only getting coral tower

[spark valve]

Nah it’s a greymoor subarea

Well was

[sinful nimbus]

ok but its so aquatic

[limber anvil]

Lomm?

[drowsy mortar]

I don't mind removing Assasins to focus more on the shamans ngl

[sinful nimbus]

The hermit crab

[limber anvil]

Ah

[drowsy mortar]

I feel like they may have had too many clashing themes

[sinful nimbus]

idk why the assassins would conflict with the shamans

[modern bay]

Coral Knight

[limber anvil]

I hope for a past dlc with the coral biome and hermitcrab village I can dream

[drowsy mortar]

Just too many void factions in the Act 3 plotline

[sinful nimbus]

DLC adding new areas would be cool

[limber anvil]

Pictures of the cut coral area

[lapis geode]

Just asking:
How manny crest we can found in Silksong?
I only found Wanderer, Beast, Reaper, and Advanded Hunter.

Heard about the architect, witch, and Shaman. But where to find it still mystery since I just randomly
travel around.

Any location without giving me too much clue?

[sinful nimbus]

I think it'd be pretty natural for them to go and try to assassinate Hornet and the Shamans for meddling with the void

[limber anvil]

7

[drowsy mortar]

Ohhhh wait

[sinful nimbus]

They're actually an anti-void faction if anything

[drowsy mortar]

I see what happened here, two of those shots turned into Blasted Steps

[modern bay]

Wait so they just changed blasted steps from it, that's pretty cool

[rancid dirge]

I’m getting very intrigued with the greyroot

[sinful nimbus]

sands of karak more likely

[limber anvil]

Maybe or there Were 2 versions

[sacred heath]

wait
c-coral king isnt real??

[naive crag]

isnt that blasted steps but not dune

[limber anvil]

Past and present

[drowsy mortar]

Coral King is real yes

[modern bay]

That's even cooler, I like how you're thinking

[rancid dirge]

do we have anything else about it ?

[limber anvil]

Like lost veridania

[drowsy mortar]

There's not a huge amount to go off of

[limber anvil]

That is my guess but it got cut due to time constraints and them not wanting to delay the game any longer

Which is why coral tower has a full area of exclusive enemies

[rancid dirge]

hope they do something more with the greyroot because i wanna know what’s about

[willow niche]

What does void smell like

[rancid dirge]

what a shame

[willow niche]

I'd imagine it smells very sterile

[drowsy mortar]

We know she's a witch based on her crest, it's unclear if she has any further significance

[limber anvil]

In the cursed child ending I have a feeling the knight might get pissed and kill the child that ate its sister

[naive crag]

like nothing?

[willow niche]

No it must smell like something

[rancid dirge]

i’m pretty sure you can’t smell it

[drowsy mortar]

Pretty sure Greyroot died

[naive crag]

i believe knight cares but not that much

[limber anvil]

Fair

[cinder storm]

I wonder if Xero is related to the Order of the Karaks. He could be descendant of a Karaka who fled to Hallownest when it fell.

[rancid dirge]

greyroot definitely died, even tho idk why

[limber anvil]

Liekly

[limber anvil]

To give birth to the child

[rancid dirge]

but what about the creature that screamed after we beat GMS while being cursed

[limber anvil]

New Eldrich god

[polar yacht]

How did the Weavers contain GMS. They constructed the cradle and put her to sleep? But how?

[rancid dirge]

i guess

i wanna see it

[limber anvil]

Which the void might kill

[limber anvil]

Godmaster like dlc I hope

[polar yacht]

And what exactly is the cradle? Is it the massive ball of silk that we see?

[rancid dirge]

i hope so but i feel like dlc while be different this time

[limber anvil]

We need a boss rush eventually though

[rancid dirge]

they gonna be just the missed part of the story and finally a conclusion

[rancid dirge]

sure

[sacred heath]

my pipe dream want for silksong dlc
i wanna see THK return as, like, an NPC you can talk to

[limber anvil]

Imagine hollowknight 3 lace vs cursed child

[sacred heath]

and they just nod or shake their head at hornet to communicate

[naive crag]

really hope not

if its that then its still pharloom i want somewhere new

[rancid dirge]

so which ending is most likely to be the canon ending

[timber pond]

THK in the Steel city would be cool

[rancid dirge]

i mean in hk

[timber pond]

For silksong? Sister of the void

[sacred heath]

you dream better than I

[limber anvil]

Final boss of any dlc would maybe be shade lord the one from godmaster ending

[naive crag]

all endings are canon allegedly but prob one of the godhome endings

[rancid dirge]

i thought of radiance ending because i don’t feel like the knight and hornet are this close if she didn’t help it to kill the radiance

[naive crag]

she saved its life in kingdoms edge wdym

[limber anvil]

Odds are all 3 are non canon

Or all but dream no mods

[timber pond]

Godmaster or embrace the void imo because it both A leaves the hollowknight alive outside the void since we don't see his shade in the void and B it has a variant that directly teases the importance of the Everbloom

[rancid dirge]

it makes more sense to me if it’s the true ending

[polar yacht]

Conductor Ballador: "The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown. Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise. Would you see her, pilgrim? Up there at our Citadel's crown? Reach those heights we'd hoped to hide and bow before this land's true ruler."

Not only did the Citadel and Conductors keep GMS asleep but they hid her existence so that they would become the object of worship instead.

[limber anvil]

Is the godmastsr or dream no more ending likely canon

[rancid dirge]

but yeah all of them works, except the normal and sibling ones

[spark valve]

sister of the void is consistent with both etv and dnm and is ambiguous between them

[rancid dirge]

hmmm true

[limber anvil]

I see leading to a radiance like situstion

[spark valve]

she was still an object of worship, the threefold melody dialogue calls her the kingdom's divine heart, they just may not have known exactly what she was

[rancid dirge]

what’s dnm

[spark valve]

dream no more

[rancid dirge]

which one is that

[spark valve]

killing radiance

[timber pond]

We also see a flash of the shadelord. But who knows

[rancid dirge]

oh the true ending

[limber anvil]

If its embrace the void the knight is the void entity....

Able to wipe the floor with higher gods...

[spark valve]

its nature is not really that different between dnm and etv

the endings are in fact barely different

[limber anvil]

Embrace the void means the knight is an unstoppable monster with absolute control of the void

[timber pond]

I just want to know where The Hollow Knight is ,whichever ending is cannon

[spark valve]

which it is in dream no more too

[timber pond]

The only reason I lean towards godmaster is because he dosent come help hornet

[limber anvil]

Difference is one has control one is complete unity

Read the void idol dialogues from godhome.

[spark valve]

complete unification under its will is complete control

[polar yacht]

"The heart of a graceful lord. In its taking I was able to witness his caves and kingdom as once they flourished. A stunning sight. Unique. All gone... Lost to the pale monarch... and the system to keep her caged."

GMS is indeed a pale being wow

[limber anvil]

Its still chaotic in dream no more

With embrace the voud... The void becomes still fully unified under one will

[spark valve]

it's pretty still in dream no more even makes a point of showing the shades going peacefully to rest

[limber anvil]

The shade lord is god given form
The void entity is void given focus... With the liquid void in the idol completly still

[spark valve]

the void idols aren't gated behind manifestation of any given form of the lord of shades

the void idols are ancient ancient ritual objects used by the ancient civilization

[abstract yew]

Is Hornet able to use spells like the knight or is she only able to manipulate Soul using her silk?

If she wanted to

[runic musk]

Silk

[limber anvil]

The difference is the godseekers focusing on the knight fully unified the void

[spark valve]

she might be able to use shaman spells but that's not what she does in game

[limber anvil]

Creating the ultimate monster

[spark valve]

no void heart did that

[runic musk]

Everything she does is with silk iirc

[limber anvil]

Yes and the godseekers amplified it.

One is control one is absolute control

[spark valve]

they did not fundamentally change what it does

[limber anvil]

They brought it to its limit

[runic musk]

By the way we figure out anything more about Silk and Soul conditions? In my SS file it didnt show up until I built the memorium this time.

[spark valve]

it's in total control either way

[spark valve]

somebody was touting a 'datamined' list but idk if it's accurate

[runic musk]

I'm more surprised its taking this long to datamine it to begin tbph

[limber anvil]

Has the game been fully datakined yet

[graceful grail]

Just saw that the Needle Originated in the Hive - Long sewing tool, uniquely balanced for combat. The Hivesteel blade has been sharpened to its ultimate form

[limber anvil]

To find all cut content

[spark valve]

REQUIRED QUESTS

||Flexile Spines (hunt for spine cores)
Bone Bottom Repairs (bb repair 1)
A Lifesaving Bridge (bb repair 2)
Crawbug Clearing (kill crows for scarecrow)
Building Up Songclave (sc repair 1)
Strengthening Songclave (sc repair 2)
Restoration of Bellhart (bh repair 1)
Bellhart's Glory (bh repair 2)
Trail's End (shakra final quest)
Balm for the Wounded (rescue sherma)||

WORLD STATE

||Fleatopia
Double Jump
Lace Refight
House Key
17 optional quests completed||

I cannot be assed to test this so I don't vouch for any of it

[graceful grail]

Is Hornets ability to use soul Inherited from Weavers or PK??

[spark valve]

both probably

[runic musk]

Hm, its likely it didnt show up because I didnt reset instance when I first got the key and did when building the materium, which tracks the list a bit.

[limber anvil]

They should add an extra state without the 17 optimal quests on a second save for an account that has completed act 3 for speedrunnera

[spark valve]

could be

[sinful nimbus]

is silk and soul the bellhart quest

[rancid dirge]

if godhome is the canon ending, what about radiance sealed in THK

[runic musk]

Yes

[sinful nimbus]

Needing to repair towns is crazy work

[runic musk]

Even though it mainly takes place in First Shrine but whatever Greymoor does it too

[left dune]

godhome or dream no more

[limber anvil]

We know lifeblood is a curse now

[spark valve]

good thing it's not like the rosary economy is tight or anything!

[limber anvil]

Dead

But the hollow knight is still alive

[rancid dirge]

is she still here? But also Hornet talked about the infection like it got destroyed

[rancid dirge]

why ?

Didn’t we fight just an image of the god of hallownest ?

[limber anvil]

The godseekers made a bridge to bring the real radiance to godhome

In her prime

She dies in the godhome ending

[rancid dirge]

where can i see this

[rancid dirge]

that would make sense

[limber anvil]

The vines in the godhome ending

And how the void is acting

Its the only fight it shows up

[cinder storm]

And the beads moreso.

[limber anvil]

It also shows her dream essence like the dream no more ending... Plus the radiance is a dream boss the only one that counts as a true death

Radiance lives in dreams so killing her in the dream world and in turn godhome kills her

[muted lantern]

What kinda bug is Shakra anyway?

[rancid dirge]

i wonder if radiance ever existed in the physical world of hallownest

[rancid dirge]

wasp ?

[limber anvil]

Maybe... Or maybe not. Moths have the power over dreams.

[muted lantern]

A wasp would prob have wings, maybe some kinda assassin bug?

Not sure if these are winged too

[rancid dirge]

ye

some wasps aren’t winged iirc

[muted lantern]

I assume Sherma is a pill bug or generic beetle of some kind

[limber anvil]

Wonder how long until mossbag posts a silksong lore video XD

[muted lantern]

Also also it's really cute that hornet loves soft things and laments never growing wings in hunters journal, and she gets soft and fluffy wings on mount fay

[limber anvil]

Yup

[limber anvil]

She laments at the giant green fluffballs still having spikes

Lore wise the monarch wings are way more powerful

[muted lantern]

This is probably why hornet gets along with fleas

[limber anvil]

Meaning her soft wings probably actually allow for full flight lore wise

Not just a double jump

Also benefit to hornets faydawn wings... No worry having fragile brittle wings that can easily be destroyed

[muted lantern]

It is funny that there's a lot of bugs that clearly look like non bug creatures, like the crow bug, fay, and the frog bug

[limber anvil]

Mouse bug

Screw the frog

[rancid dirge]

mr shroom is very intriguing, i’ve no clue if his dialogues have a real purpose or just random cuz it’s funny

also it seems hornet knew him before

[limber anvil]

He actually talks back and it seems a combination of both

[limber anvil]

Have you finished it?

[rancid dirge]

beat the whole game 100% yes

[obsidian quail]

he was in hollow knight

[limber anvil]

I'm currently 100% besides lost lace and Seth's flea scores

[rancid dirge]

i know

[limber anvil]

He says he only can see the pressent

I'm 90 hours in...

[obsidian quail]

he’s just waxing philosophical

[rancid dirge]

you mean present

[limber anvil]

This really was a 100 hour game

[rancid dirge]

i beat it at 80 hours

[limber anvil]

Yeah... I'm in mobile so I'm mistyping plus I'm dyslexic

[rancid dirge]

then i did speedrun and greyroot ending

[polar yacht]

Chat. Believe it or not. I have a question about the lore (shocking)

So after the Grand Mother came to Pharloom she created the Weavers. This is know. But was it her actions that crushed the already existing kingdoms of Pharloom before the Citadel's existence? Or was it after? It sounds to me like the citadel choked these kingdoms to death more than anything.

Read this Conjoined Heart: "The heart of a graceful lord. In its taking I was able to witness his caves and kingdom as once they flourished. A stunning sight. Unique. All gone... Lost to the pale monarch... and the system to keep her caged"

[limber anvil]

I'm trying to beat lace with no red tools

[rancid dirge]

it’s fine dw

[limber anvil]

Probably the kingdom not silk then

Also wonder what bilewater used to be before blighttown

[spark valve]

depending on the kingdom it may have been undercut by gms, the citadel, or both. In verdania's case specifically it was the citadel though

[rancid dirge]

a bit sad we didn’t get anything about radiance

[limber anvil]

Everyone want my theory on the reef

[rancid dirge]

good reference

[polar yacht]

I'm thinking it would have been lost to her but the Weavers caged her before she got to it. Only to be choked to death by the Citadel anyways.

[limber anvil]

I think the citidel stole the water turning it into a desert and used it to wash our pollutants to create bilewater sinners road and the ducts

[runic musk]

I dont see why we would Radiance doesn't seem relevant to Pharloom in any way afaik

[rancid dirge]

blighttown if it was an endgame area

[polar yacht]

Yeah

Actually so true

[wary plover]

The seamstress is a craw. she's a craw!!!

[limber anvil]

So the coral forest got pumped into the other side of the map becoming a poison swamp

[rancid dirge]

well she’s basically light itself it would have make sense that she has an influence in other kingdoms, or at least if anything was referencing her

[muted lantern]

The citadel does have the vibes of colonialism, destroying the environment to kill everyone else who lives there before

[limber anvil]

Void nom time to sleep

[rancid dirge]

exploiting the poors, make them believe they will rise up if they work hard enough

[runic musk]

I'm not 100% I'm missing like 19 tools lol

Using an external site to cleanup because these games dont help much with it

[limber anvil]

There 57 also upgrades to some... Not sure I have all of th e upgrades

[craggy smelt]

nooo... I think she's something else
(I love the craws though, favorite new enemy group)

[muted lantern]

Well that's more of the capitalism commentary than colonialism, I was more relating it to what American settlers did, driving buffalo nearly extinct to starve the natives

[limber anvil]

I found 53/57 myself before looking the rest up also 2 mask shards 1 spool fragment and 2 memory lockets and 2 treasures... Found everything else myself

[muted lantern]

Tho capitalism and colonialism go hand in hand typically

[rancid dirge]

i think the citadel make a reference to both

[muted lantern]

Yeah, the whole game is commentary on organized religion and capitalism

[limber anvil]

Beutaful reefs got polluted making a posion swamp on the other side of the map via the putrid ducts

[craggy smelt]

were they reefs?

[limber anvil]

The blasted steps and the sands yes

[polar yacht]

I believe that GMS genuinely saw the Weavers as her daughters, but as a god treated them as tools. The first sinner says GMS lied about seeing the weavers as her daughters but I think lace proves that wrong. She's just a terrible abusive mother that wants control.

[limber anvil]

Also the coral forest is the only know scrapped area

[limber anvil]

Yup

[craggy smelt]

them yes, I meant the poisoned swamp on the other side, were they also reefs?

[limber anvil]

Its Irony

[rancid dirge]

we didn’t get much about her motivations

[limber anvil]

No

It makes sense they drained one side and dumped on the other sidd

You don't dump waste water back into clean water you want to use if it isn't a river or ocean

[rancid dirge]

it feels like she don’t actually have choice + she’s not so bad knowing she helped us in the sister of the void ending

In comparison Radiance really feel evil

[limber anvil]

Pale beings just have it in their nature to have children and to dominate them

[rancid dirge]

i guess

[limber anvil]

Pale king and white lady are the exceptions to a degree

[rancid dirge]

who’s pale except GMS and the wyrm

[vital yacht]

Idk about that statement. We only have a record of 3 pale beings, two of them being pretty decent parents

[limber anvil]

White lady and radiance

And hornet

[rancid dirge]

about the wyrm there is still this weird black wyrm we didn’t get anything about it lmao

so many new questions without any answers to feed us

[limber anvil]

True lol

[limber anvil]

And many old questions answered

[rancid dirge]

radiance is pale ?

[craggy smelt]

i was hoping for a little more about wyrms and roots, myself

[craggy smelt]

we aren't told explicitly, but I think in light of new lore about pale beings she should be considered one in retrospect

[limber anvil]

Think she is... But I may be wrong but she was stronger than the pale king and white lady

[rancid dirge]

which ones got answered, we got a lot about hornet

[limber anvil]

The surface for one

[rancid dirge]

i think she’s a god but while the wyrm is also a god, she’s some kind of very specific god

a conceptual god

[tawdry flare]

well i think youre Wrong

[limber anvil]

Dirthmouth is probably on the actual surface based upon the edge of hollowknest and the area in silksong

[rancid dirge]

such as the void entity

[limber anvil]

True

[craggy smelt]

well I think I'm Right

[vital yacht]

I wouldn't consider Radiance a pale being, as the Godseeker never makes mention of her being one, but makes note of it when examine the white lady.